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Welcome to the Poly Pathways podcast, helping you create paths for practical polyamory.
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Your hosts are Kat and Doc.
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We're glad you're here.
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This is a very exciting episode today because we are going to talk about where we learn
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all of these things that we talk about.
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How do we get in each other's algorithms?
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Yes.
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How do we mess up your algorithm with poly resources?
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So this is all about different social media accounts, groups, podcasts.
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Yes, other podcasts other than this one, discord channels, places that we go to find more information
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and continue our education and development in poly.
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So a lot of these resources were instrumental in kind of forming our opinions and our thoughts
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and helping guide us to the place that we are today.
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So we're sharing some of them with you because as always, sharing is caring and you might
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find value out of them as well.
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And this really is our polysphere, the people that we've learned from, the people that we
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share their content out with.
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And it's our way of saying thank you to them for influencing our poly and helping us form
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our own opinions and our own thoughts and ideas about how we poly.
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So maybe we start with how we often get asked about getting into poly, getting started with
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poly.
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For me, a lot of folks who come to me and say, "Hey, Doc, I'm thinking about poly or
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we're thinking about opening our relationship or I'm curious about poly."
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The first place that I send people is social media.
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Whatever it is, whether it's Instagram or TikTok or YouTube or Facebook or whatever
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their preferred social media landscape is, this is often an easy place to go to start
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to see some information that's new and different, but it's super digestible.
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It could be very small type messaging.
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It's important.
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I'm not saying small, like it's inconsequential.
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It's very important stuff, but it's done so in an easy format.
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And it's often a place where people who are thinking about poly or they're thinking
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about poly for their relationship can easily take in something and then send it off to
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their partner or their partners.
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I think for me, in my poly, social media is also really handy because the messaging seems
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to be hitting at particular issues or times that I need those particular messages.
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I certainly have my favorites and you have your favorites and because we follow each
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other, our favorites are largely the same.
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And that's okay.
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And they'll probably become yours or not.
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Yeah.
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And there's some duds in this list that we'll call out too that we might have followed
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at a particular point in time that we no longer follow and we'll kind of explain why that
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is or why we think their content's changed a little bit.
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That's right.
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And it's not just poly, right?
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Because being poly also means dealing with relationship issues and your mental wellness
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issues and your insecurity issues right up front.
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So it's not just going to be about poly.
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It's going to be good stuff for you in general.
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One of my favorites, honestly, is Therapy Jeff.
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So Therapy Jeff is great because it's-
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How sarcastic.
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Yeah.
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There's certainly a lot of tongue in cheek, but also a lot of very like allowing you to
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feel your feels about things.
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Therapy Jeff largely is not really about poly.
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It is about relationships.
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It is about your mental well-being, but it is very smart information.
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It's done so in a way that is very approachable.
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It's very digestible.
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I love that he like numbers.
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It's like five things you should ask your partner, five things you should do this.
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And honestly, I think one of my proudest moments of following Therapy Jeff was when he came
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out with his monogamish disclosure around largely monogamous, but I have this interest
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in this other person.
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Does that make me poly or does it make me monogamish?
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And I really kind of that it further endeared me to Therapy Jeff.
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Yeah.
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He's definitely a good resource and I'll find myself thinking about issues or talking about
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issues with my partners and all of a sudden like I'll see, boom, a bonus bit of content
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that is just perfectly aligned, which thank you algorithms for giving me that.
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And then I'll share it.
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So I find myself sharing his content quite a bit.
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Yeah.
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And it's a therapy account that I really enjoy and that it's millennial therapist.
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And if you're wondering folks, right, we'll put it all in the show notes, but a millennial
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therapist is also pretty pithy and smart.
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And while I am not a millennial, it doesn't mean that that information is not, not applicable
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to my life.
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It's applicable to people's lives.
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And it is also very good content about kind of affirmation and wellness and security and
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feeling okay and feeling your best because if you're not feeling your best in poly, it
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definitely shows and it can definitely come out in some really uncomfortable ways.
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So millennial therapist and Therapy Jeff were my two, those kind of my two beginnings.
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And maybe, maybe that's just a good place to start.
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Like are you mentally ready?
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Are you mentally okay for poly, whether you've been doing it for a while or you're new to
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it, are you mentally okay to continue this?
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Yeah.
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I'm a therapist that I follow as well.
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And we are going to link all of these because you'll notice there's a theme where a lot
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of them use the term poly.
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So it's like poly this, poly that, poly this, poly that.
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So Study Poly Emery is a sex positive coach and therapist named Heidi.
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And I like a lot of her content.
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She's like super sex positive, which I love because a lot of times in poly you'll hear
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people say, well, it's not about the sex.
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Well, you know, sometimes it is.
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But I really, really enjoy some of her content that she puts out on how to navigate, you
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know, when you are having lots of sex with lots of people, how to navigate transitions
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in the relationship, you know, from high points to low points.
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So she's another therapist that I really link to.
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There is one other therapist that I could not find her name.
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It's Dr. Something.
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And if I, if I find it before this episode goes live, we will add it to the show notes.
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They also have a very unique perspective on it from an actual, I believe she's a licensed
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psychologist or psychiatrist.
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Like she actually has a very heavy list of credentials and her content is very much in
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navigating transitions in relationships, not just poly alone, but a lot of her content
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is poly because she herself is.
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I'm going to find her account and add it to this list for you guys.
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Well, that'll be good.
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There are lists straight up at Poly Emery accounts that deal just with Poly Emery.
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One of my favorites really right now is Ready for Poly Emery.
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This is a, this account really deals a lot with relationship anarchy, but relationship
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styles.
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What I particularly like about it is it's very, very practical, especially for parents
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because she is a parent.
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She's written, she's written books about poly and that's important to know.
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But particularly Monogamy in this Economy is her book that was just out this year, which
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is really great.
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But this is someone I enjoy a lot because she's a parent and that helps me kind of manage
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how do I talk about poly with my kiddos and help them understand kind of my relationship
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way in the world and what does that look like.
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But it's also just really practical advice on poly.
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Yeah.
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And there are two accounts that I follow that I actually really love for their lens on the
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parenthood side.
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So obviously Doc and I are both parents.
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Poly Famery is the, it's run by a woman named Tanya and it is a closed quad situation.
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So basically the women are both dating both of the husbands.
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So it's two guys and two girls.
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Both of the women are dating both of the men, but the men are not dating each other and
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the women are not dating each other.
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So it's strictly like hetero in that sense, which is kind of interesting because usually
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you see a lot of crossover.
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If I'm remembering correctly, Tanya is actually a bisexual, I believe, or pansexual, but they
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are a close quad with children.
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They have had children since being together.
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They have children from the existing relationships prior to coming in.
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But it's a really interesting take because a lot of their content is obviously inclusive
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of their mixed family children and the children that they've had together while being together.
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And it has a lot of underlying themes that are really beautiful and really interesting
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on how to navigate where it's like, "Hey, we're a family of four adults and all of these
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children."
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I think they have like five children.
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I don't know.
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I don't remember off the top of my head, but they have several children and how to present
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as a family unit in that sense is really unique and interesting and illuminating for people
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who are struggling with how to talk to children, how to talk around children, how to be around
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children.
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And the other account that I follow that is also children specific, which I'm going to
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mention in the resources later is Remodeled Love.
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So Just A Lover actually runs that account.
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And I have a funny story about that.
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I was standing behind her at Electric Forest and I knew exactly who she was and she was
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publishing all her content and I really wanted to meet her, but I chickened out.
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She was there at 32 Prenz and I was like, "Oh, I can finally meet someone I followed
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on Instagram for all this time."
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And I basically chickened out because I was like, her feet were hurting really bad and
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she kept posting about her feet were hurting and I felt really bad and I was like, "Oh,
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I don't want to like walk up to her and be like, 'Oh my God, I love your content.'"
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But her and her husband who have a non-sexual relationship and then they have other partners
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that are involved in their polycule, they have children together as well.
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So they talk a lot about what it's like their children have medical issues and things that
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they talk about all the time and about advocating as a family and about how that looks a little
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differently when there are other partners.
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And there have been several partners that have come and gone during their time raising
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their children.
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And I think how they handle those conversations with those people entering and exiting their
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life is really interesting.
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But they're also really skilled at how to navigate negative conversations because they've
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been on the receiving end of a lot of negative talk about their family unit.
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So I think that's really interesting as well.
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I'm not alone is really out and proud, right?
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And so they invite a lot of ire and navigate that really well and a great podcast as well.
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Yeah.
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And I know they do a lot of content around kind of some of the fringe spaces like transitioning,
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staying married and transitioning into a non-sexual relationship with basically your legally-butted
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partner but also really, I know, oh gosh, what's his name?
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Her husband did an amazing section on basically reluctantly becoming polyamorous and talking
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about how to transition himself and his way of thinking and navigating a lot of those
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changes.
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It wasn't polyandered duress but what it brought up to him.
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I think that was really helpful to hear that from his perspective.
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So great content there.
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Yeah, for sure.
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Another account that I really – that's kind of along that kind of coaching line,
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one of the accounts that I really like is Chill Polyamory.
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She's lovely, right?
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Just really, really brilliant, insightful, practical advice.
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But what I kind of love about it is it's answering like really key questions one at
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a time in a very – just a very friendly way and very much like a steward of the polyamory
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community, right?
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Is there not only to provide information but also support.
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She doesn't gatekeep anything.
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She lets everybody know what her thoughts are and from her perspective and how to do
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poly better.
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But I think that even just the name Chill Polyamory should tell you a lot about this
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account, right?
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Whether it's on Instagram or YouTube but it's really just – it's chill.
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Like it's like this isn't a big deal.
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Poly can be hard and poly can be intimidating but I think the Chill Polyamory account makes
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it super approachable.
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It's very low entry stuff and it gets you into that – it gets you into the polyamory
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pool nice and easy and just a really – I feel always really supported when I watch
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the videos or listen to what she has to say about a particular issue around poly.
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Yeah, and I did just discover that she has her own podcast.
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I have not listened to it but it's called I Could Never which is something people often
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hear.
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I will confess I have a little bit of a crush on Genevieve.
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So I think she's adorable.
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I love listening to her voice because her content and the way she presents it is always
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very – like you said, it's very chill.
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It's very like the wavelength is just very digestible and it just really – I just love
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listening to her talk.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I totally have a crush on her and I'm not afraid to admit that.
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Another account that I absolutely have a crush on is Chad who I don't believe is actually
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on Instagram right now.
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I think he zipped himself off of Instagram and is on YouTube.
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So the account was PolyamFam and there was like a couple of episodes he did and I've
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been following these people for a long time.
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So I know like their storylines and all that stuff.
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There was an episode where like him and his wife and there were partners coming over for
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like a D&D game.
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There's a lot of D&D content which resonates with me and I remember being like –
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It does not resonate with me.
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It does not.
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So that's another – I am the D&D poly sort.
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Which is like a whole subset of like you got your kinky polyamorous, your D&D polyamorous,
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your Magic the Gathering polyamorous, your Ren Faire, all those subcategories.
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But he was basically coming over for D&D.
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I'm like I want to join his polycule.
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I want to date him and his wife.
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And I fully admit that I had a full on crush on this guy because he was just so funny and
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the content was so fresh and it was just so like really, really – Like it always hit
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on like really relevant topics and it made light – Like he did these ones where he
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would go back and forth as different characters of himself.
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I'm like the bro dude at a party like trying to like get with people.
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And it was a funny take on like real scenarios that I think made it more relatable.
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So I really, really enjoyed his content.
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It is one of the few YouTube channels that I actually subscribe to.
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YouTube is not my main channel.
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So I did actually seek him out on another platform because I know he was taking a break
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from Instagram for a while because the algorithms were being real mean to him.
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So who else do you have on your list?
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Honestly, we have a shared one with Annie Undone.
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Ooh, I have opinions.
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Do you?
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Okay.
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So I really like Annie Undone for a couple of reasons.
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One is because she does talk about polyamory a lot but it's not specific to polyamory.
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These are good things to know in any relationship.
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But one of the things that I really like is her vulnerability about poly, her vulnerability
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around this too makes me uncomfortable.
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I don't like this.
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And those feelings are valid.
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And here's what I experienced and here's how I did things.
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I also, I'm kind of akin to her story a little bit, how she arrived at poly.
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It's not exactly the same story as mine but it's in the same sphere of my story.
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But I really, I like, there are times where there are, there are certainly there are posts
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where I'm like, "Uh, that's, I can't quite get to."
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But I absolutely appreciate that she's vulnerable about it.
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She's honest and transparent about it.
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And her authenticity, I think, really validates a lot of feelings that I have or people that
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I know have in the poly space.
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And she just, she's a great voice for that.
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And because regardless of whether what they have to say or what they have to think is
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like okay or normal, it is the feeling they have.
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And so that means that it's valid.
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And so now we have to deal with that.
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And I think Annie Undone does a good job of making that available to people and making
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it safe to say that, "Yes, I have this feeling.
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I know it feels irrational but this is the feeling that I have."
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And she does a real good job of reflecting back and redirecting back into really positive
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ways.
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LS: Yeah.
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I have had the benefit of watching her evolution of content.
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So my comment actually introduced me to her a few years ago when Annie was still married.
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She was still doing faceless content.
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She would not show her face.
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She was actually wearing a wig, I think, for most of her content.
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And she was hiding her identity.
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And I believe she was married to a partner and they were exploring it together.
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And then a bunch of stuff happened.
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She ended up separating from that partner and her evolution over time.
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The tone of her content changed.
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So whereas I used to find it very uplifting and very illuminating and things like that,
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it got to a point where it was kind of angry for me.
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And I understand that was part of her healing journey.
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And she was healing out loud, which I find very, very admirable.
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To be vulnerable with both yourself and the public at that time is huge.
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And I wish more people did that.
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But I've reached a place with her content now and her journey where she is today where
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I don't find it valuable for me anymore.
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So if you're going through her content in the past, you might find some stuff that's
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really valuable to your journey.
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But a lot of her journey now I think is relationship anarchy based.
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And it just doesn't resonate as much with me.
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I think it's still super valuable, of course, but on my personal level, I'm not saying it's
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not good.
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I'm just saying it's not for me anymore.
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So I've kind of drifted away from her account a little bit, I think, because of that.
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But honestly, one of the accounts that I really like is Polly Lovers.
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This is an account you and I both follow as well.
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But it definitely deals with regular people, regular Polly type issues.
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But it also deals with things like pink and the lighter side of things and relationship
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type stuff.
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And so it's a good place to find some kind of funny memes that will certainly feel that
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you will feel called out on.
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But we appreciate that content that's lighthearted too.
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Yeah, right.
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Yeah, holy, I really like that.
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It is.
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I really like there's an account called Polly Loki, L-O-K-I-I, that does cartoons.
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And it's like fun cartoons of like scenarios that I believe are like kind of a triad right
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now, but like that they go through.
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And I always appreciate the lighthearted, funny approach to my content.
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Because you don't always want to be lectured to and you don't always want to just sit there
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and read like, "Oh man, this is some deep emotional work on my 1130 doom scroll."
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Not always in that mind space for it.
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So sometimes you just want it in a different format.
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And I appreciate the things that kind of bring that levity to it.
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Yeah.
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And again, it's super practical, right?
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I mean, it deals with things like the dangers of comparing and other types of really just,
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it's just a really good, really good feed.
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Another account that I absolutely love, and I'd be remiss to not mention it, is Andrea's
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account Infinite Pollyam.
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So it's not as big, I don't think, as some of these other accounts.
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But when I first stumbled across her content, I was so excited because a lot of the accounts
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and a lot of people that are out there are like, the traditional, "Oh, I'm a bisexual
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woman with a man and a woman and blah, blah, blah."
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Or I'm super duper out there doing everybody and their brother and that's fine.
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But her account really resonated with me because she was a woman in a relationship with two
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men and both were partners fairly long term.
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She gets a lot of comments about like, "Oh, this isn't going to last," and things like
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that.
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And I was like, "Hey, by the way, it's been years," which is similar to my story.
19:56-20:02
So to find somebody that was so closely aligned to kind of the path that I'm living and the
20:02-20:07
storyline that I'm living was really exciting for me.
20:07-20:09
Plus I've had a few side conversations with her.
20:09-20:12
I don't know if she'll ever put the two and two together because obviously my identity
20:12-20:15
is different here than it is on Instagram.
20:15-20:20
But I really appreciate some of the conversations that we've had and she's actually provided
20:20-20:24
me some insights and stories that I'm going to be using in my book.
20:24-20:25
She's giving me permission.
20:25-20:30
So I think she's just a really great creator for another lens within Polly for people that
20:30-20:33
are like seeking out that type of relationship.
20:33-20:39
I'm going to circle back to an account on Instagram that is long, I don't want to say
20:39-20:45
long defunct, but it has a post since 2003 and that's PollyAnnProud.
20:45-20:51
So this is the new Polly flag creator, right?
20:51-20:56
But the stuff that's out there is still really good.
20:56-20:58
It's just, it hasn't been updated in a while.
20:58-21:01
So it's an account you have to kind of go visit to kind of look back on.
21:01-21:10
But what I found in there was I think at first was I could see an identity and feel like
21:10-21:14
I belong to something, to a community like PollyAnnProud.
21:14-21:21
And it made it okay for me to explore those ideas that I'm going through in Polly.
21:21-21:25
I wish it was still running, but I think it was at its peak when we were trying to determine
21:25-21:31
the new Polly Amorous flag, which did come out, which is, I still think it's way better
21:31-21:32
than the old one.
21:32-21:33
The old one had like the pie symbol on it.
21:33-21:37
It was like a whole thing like that.
21:37-21:42
I have two other ones that I don't follow as closely that I think are worth mentioning.
21:42-21:46
So Kate the Button Lady, I followed her for a long time.
21:46-21:50
And I don't really have strong opinions about the content, but every once in a while I'll
21:50-21:54
go back and be like, "Oh, I wonder what she's up to."
21:54-22:00
And then Pollyphilia Blah is run by Leanne.
22:00-22:03
And I adore this content.
22:03-22:04
I eat it up all the time.
22:04-22:06
I think it's great.
22:06-22:08
Really top notch stuff.
22:08-22:10
So many topics are covered.
22:10-22:18
So many unique topics based on – she recently talked about her long-term friends with benefits.
22:18-22:23
We're talking like years and years, which is just so uncommon.
22:23-22:25
She calls that out like, "Yeah, why aren't you guys actually dating?"
22:25-22:26
All this other stuff.
22:26-22:31
And there's just the constellations that she has are incredible.
22:31-22:36
I feel like she has such a healthy view of it and so many unique perspectives.
22:36-22:41
And it's really just super interesting to me to hear what she has to say and get her
22:41-22:42
perspective on things.
22:42-22:44
Yeah.
22:44-22:52
And I think one of the accounts that I really like out there is one called Open Relating.
22:52-23:00
This is another relationship coach and therapist who deals a lot with multi-amory, polyamory,
23:00-23:02
open relationships.
23:02-23:06
And I really like Open Relating for a couple reasons.
23:06-23:10
One is I find the voice particularly gentle.
23:10-23:14
It absolutely validates what you're feeling.
23:14-23:17
It makes sure that you know that that is okay and that is real.
23:17-23:23
It is also really helpful to expand on definitions to help you understand what these words are,
23:23-23:26
these things that you hit on when you get into polyamory.
23:26-23:30
It answers key questions, whether you're new or experienced.
23:30-23:32
And it's just a really helpful account.
23:32-23:37
I find myself forwarding a lot of the messages from Open Relating.
23:37-23:41
But also, I think one of the things that I admire about the account, Open Relating really
23:41-23:46
is, he's really developing a community of people and developing not just a community
23:46-23:49
of people digitally, but also in real life.
23:49-23:51
And I think that that's really great.
23:51-23:54
I was just talking about this with one of my partners.
23:54-23:57
It's just this idea of physical community space.
23:57-24:02
Like, no, we're not all dating each other, but to be able to have a friend that's poly,
24:02-24:07
to be able to talk to somebody that's poly, and the differences in location.
24:07-24:11
And Open Relating, it's just kind of that digital space for me to think about how I
24:11-24:13
would form a community of people.
24:13-24:19
Well, it's not all roses and sunshines, unfortunately, out there in social media land.
24:19-24:26
And the interesting part is, I found some polyamorous accounts that are, I don't want
24:26-24:31
to say they're toxic, but they make you kind of question if you're doing things the right
24:31-24:32
way.
24:32-24:35
And there was one in particular that I actually had to look up before we recorded this, and
24:35-24:40
I actually had to ask my comment to tell me who it was, because I had forgotten.
24:40-24:45
But there was an account that basically proudly declared that they were unicorn hunting.
24:45-24:51
And unicorn hunting is, of course, a bisexual woman or a bisexual couple.
24:51-24:54
It's a couple looking for a third, basically, is how you talk about it.
24:54-24:59
And we talk about that more in our terminology episode, our bonus episode.
24:59-25:03
But basically, this account was saying, "Yeah, we date."
25:03-25:07
Their pinned post is literally like, "We're a couple that dates women together."
25:07-25:09
And textbook unicorn hunting.
25:09-25:12
And the interesting part about their content and about social media in general is some
25:12-25:16
of their content says the things.
25:16-25:22
It says the right things, but it sounds hollow based on how they navigate and represent their
25:22-25:24
relationships that they go through.
25:24-25:26
Where it's like, "Well, what if somebody only wants to date one person?"
25:26-25:28
And they're like, "Yeah, of course, that's fine.
25:28-25:29
This is when it happened to us."
25:29-25:34
But it didn't actually happen because I can only imagine the conversations that were happening
25:34-25:37
that made that feel uncomfortable for that third.
25:37-25:42
So even though they're presenting as informed, the account is pursuit of poly.
25:42-25:45
They do a lot of fun dance moves.
25:45-25:47
I think they're music recording artists.
25:47-25:54
So in general, it feels to me vaguely toxic or toxic adjacent, but it also just feels
25:54-26:01
like a publicity stunt, which is not something I super enjoy in polyamorous content.
26:01-26:07
There is an account that displays some toxic polyamory that I do find really entertaining
26:07-26:08
and I actually love them.
26:08-26:13
And please don't come in my DMs and yell at me because I love, love, love, love your account.
26:13-26:15
So Dana and the Wolf is-
26:15-26:16
I love their account too.
26:16-26:17
I love it.
26:17-26:18
Wow.
26:18-26:25
Some of the, so it's a girlfriend and boyfriend.
26:25-26:26
I don't think they're actually married.
26:26-26:27
The girlfriend and boyfriend, they've been together a long time.
26:27-26:32
They live together and there's like, it's basically like a mini series on Instagram
26:32-26:34
where it's basically like reality TV.
26:34-26:39
And you know, because it's recorded that this is played up for the thing or whatever.
26:39-26:44
And there's storylines, but there's times when they're dating somebody and you're just
26:44-26:49
like, oh, so many red flags and then the person will continue dating them through the red
26:49-26:50
flags.
26:50-26:53
So it shows a lot of the bad side of poly.
26:53-26:54
And the real side.
26:54-26:56
Honestly, the real side.
26:56-27:03
I mean, look, do you know that sometimes the fun of red flags is ignoring them?
27:03-27:04
Yeah.
27:04-27:09
It's fun to watch and there's some good stuff in there where you're like, oh yeah, that
27:09-27:12
is definitely like positive language, positive communication.
27:12-27:16
And then there's some stuff and they're like, is this okay?
27:16-27:20
But I adore the crossroads, Dana and the wolf.
27:20-27:25
And it's basically like a mini series on Instagram that I cannot get enough of.
27:25-27:27
Like there's some plot points.
27:27-27:28
I'm just like, what?
27:28-27:30
Yeah, no, it's great.
27:30-27:31
And again, right.
27:31-27:39
It's, I mean, it's absolutely done up and it's, it's so, so a lot of times you see yourself
27:39-27:41
going, oh man, that is totally me.
27:41-27:44
That is not anything that I wanted that I should be doing.
27:44-27:50
But honestly, like when I came to poly, you know, this is where I started with social
27:50-27:51
media, right?
27:51-27:54
These were bite-sized chunks that you could get into your head.
27:54-27:57
It started to give voice to some of the feelings and thoughts that I had.
27:57-28:02
And it's a great, it's just a, not only is a great place to stay engaged and keep engaged,
28:02-28:04
but I mean, this influences us.
28:04-28:09
Like we're on the social media platforms where individually our podcast obviously has a place
28:09-28:13
which you should subscribe to the poly pathways podcast.
28:13-28:15
Just shameless, shameless plug there.
28:15-28:18
You should also be following our social medias.
28:18-28:23
This may just be, if this just may be enough for you, you may be like, look, social media
28:23-28:24
is enough.
28:24-28:25
I'm getting the headline versions.
28:25-28:26
I'm getting bite-sized chunks.
28:26-28:27
I'm getting everything that I need.
28:27-28:31
Certainly that's the large majority, but it's when you want to start digging deeper that
28:31-28:34
you might want to start looking at a couple of books that are out there.
28:34-28:36
You and I have a lot.
28:36-28:39
You're way more of a reader in this space.
28:39-28:40
I am.
28:40-28:43
I'm a reader in this space.
28:43-28:44
I feel like I could be doing more.
28:44-28:45
Oh, well, okay.
28:45-28:50
Well then we're both in the same place, but I mean, I read a lot for the day house, my
28:50-28:51
day job, right?
28:51-28:59
My day job requires me to read decidedly not polyamory things or a lot of times even fun
28:59-29:02
things, but I don't think my spicy books count.
29:02-29:05
No, no spicy books.
29:05-29:07
Spicy books can count.
29:07-29:12
But books is also a place where a lot of people go and here's my caution on this.
29:12-29:18
I've heard a lot of polyamorous couples dive into books.
29:18-29:21
They become textbook poly.
29:21-29:23
All about poly from the textbook standpoint.
29:23-29:27
I think that that's a nice counterpoint in social media because that's textbooks come
29:27-29:28
to life.
29:28-29:32
That's real life stuff, what people are really feeling.
29:32-29:34
There's just a lot of good books that are out there.
29:34-29:36
We have obviously got some of the same.
29:36-29:45
We have some different ones, but what are your books, Kat?
29:45-29:47
So I have a to read list.
29:47-29:52
Of course I do, but I have my list of the books that I've read that are good and I feel
29:52-29:54
like I'm lacking on here.
29:54-30:00
So I actually as writing this, I said the first book that I read about polyamory was
30:00-30:03
The Ethical Slut, which is actually not the first book I read.
30:03-30:08
So there is a book out there called Pagan Polyamory by Raven Kildera.
30:08-30:09
It was published in 2005.
30:09-30:13
I actually don't even think you can buy it on Amazon anymore.
30:13-30:16
I think it's like $70 because it's out of print.
30:16-30:21
My roommate had this book in college and this was kind of my toe into it.
30:21-30:22
I was like, "Oh, that's where I read it."
30:22-30:26
I was like, "Oh, I don't know that this is for me, whatever."
30:26-30:28
But I shelved it and it's actually in my library.
30:28-30:32
So sorry if I stole it from you.
30:32-30:35
Sorry to my roommate, but it's in my library and I picked it up a few years ago.
30:35-30:36
Not great.
30:36-30:43
Very heavily overlapping into the King's Base, but not a lot of great polyamory themes.
30:43-30:45
More pagan centric, I think.
30:45-30:47
So not really a great place to start.
30:47-30:52
Wouldn't recommend it unless you are, you know, pagan by nature and want to pick that
30:52-30:53
up.
30:53-30:59
But The Ethical Slut was my first book as an adult once I started claiming that poly
30:59-31:02
label and I really think it is excellent.
31:02-31:07
There are, of course, heavy sexual themes especially towards the end, but it really
31:07-31:14
talks about unraveling a lot of the mononormative culture that we kind of grew up in.
31:14-31:18
And yes, it's written by two women, so there's kind of a feminist flair to it.
31:18-31:22
But yeah, my husband and I read this together and a lot of it was like, "Oh my God,"
31:22-31:28
moments where we were like, "We didn't realize that, you know, a lot of the programming that
31:28-31:32
you receive, it's hard to unravel that."
31:32-31:35
So I think it really highlighted a lot of the points where we were just doing things
31:35-31:39
because that's what everybody does and it didn't really fit our relationship at the
31:39-31:40
time.
31:40-31:46
So it really was a great kind of deep dive into unraveling a lot of that like very Puritan
31:46-31:52
style culture and very heteronormative and mononormative upbringing.
31:52-31:54
So definitely recommend that as like a starting point.
31:54-31:56
It's an intimidating read.
31:56-32:00
If you've not ever seen the book, like just picking the book up, it's an intimidating
32:00-32:01
read.
32:01-32:03
It's a big book.
32:03-32:04
It's dense.
32:04-32:11
It was an incredibly eye-opening experience for me because I hadn't really consumed a
32:11-32:19
lot of media or literature or books on sexuality, love, relationships in general from that perspective.
32:19-32:25
And it was just like mind-blowing and being able to be open to learning those things.
32:25-32:26
It's a great book.
32:26-32:31
And almost any time someone says, "I'm struggling in this sexual aspect of my relationship or
32:31-32:36
my relationship in general," or, "I have more wants and needs than my partner," or, "We're
32:36-32:41
talking about poly," I usually kind of gauge their awareness through that ethical shlet
32:41-32:42
book.
32:42-32:46
And this is a great place to begin because not only does it help you understand it, but
32:46-32:51
how to navigate it, how to be better, how to change behaviors, and demystifying a lot
32:51-32:55
of that stuff, but also making it very okay to be above board.
32:55-32:57
It's okay for you to feel these feels.
32:57-33:00
It's okay for you to identify these identities.
33:00-33:02
It's okay for you to engender these genders.
33:02-33:03
This is all okay.
33:03-33:09
Both of us have Jessica Fern books on here, so you have Polywise and Polysecure.
33:09-33:13
Polysecure, I actually – and this is a hot take.
33:13-33:18
I don't find it very valuable from a poly perspective for me personally.
33:18-33:22
I did read it as an audio book, which I felt like mine is taking away some of it.
33:22-33:23
I feel like you need to go back and read it.
33:23-33:28
That's funny because I think that that's the right way to read Polysecure.
33:28-33:29
Yeah.
33:29-33:33
I actually found it super valuable as a parent.
33:33-33:36
Talking about the relationship styles and the attachment and stuff like that, the first
33:36-33:42
several chapters applied to me and hit me deeper as a parent and how I was relating
33:42-33:46
to my children versus my relationships.
33:46-33:49
So I think it was super valuable and I do want to go back and read it again because
33:49-33:52
I think this was like three years ago I read it.
33:52-33:58
But yeah, Polysecure in general I felt like was very helpful for relationships in general,
33:58-34:00
not just uniquely poly.
34:00-34:04
Maybe you have a different experience with Polywise because I did not read that one.
34:04-34:05
Yeah.
34:05-34:12
So like Polysecure is a great book and it is – the first few chapters, as you said,
34:12-34:14
were really challenging to work through.
34:14-34:20
There's a workbook that goes along with Polysecure, which is helpful if you're a workbook-oriented
34:20-34:21
person.
34:21-34:26
I actually really liked it on audiobook because I was able to hear the intonation of the book,
34:26-34:30
hear it a little bit, but also it prevented me from like setting it down and saying, "You
34:30-34:31
know what?
34:31-34:33
I'm a little called out here.
34:33-34:37
I'm not feeling super secure about the way that I was called out of my insecurities."
34:37-34:40
Is that called out?
34:40-34:41
It is.
34:41-34:47
Fern talks about this a little bit in her Polywise book, kind of in the introduction
34:47-34:50
of the Polywise book around why Secure came out first.
34:50-34:56
It makes sense when you hear it that poly really only works well when you're feeling
34:56-35:02
secure, when you're securing your attachments, when you're secure with your partner or at
35:02-35:05
least have enough security that you could deal with some of your insecurities that you're
35:05-35:07
going to find because those come up all the time.
35:07-35:08
Oh, yeah.
35:08-35:11
And in new ways and fun and interesting ways.
35:11-35:14
And so Polysecure is a good place to kind of go back to.
35:14-35:18
So if you're getting into poly or just in general, honestly, I think you're right.
35:18-35:24
Like if you're in any relationship, understanding your attachments, your attachment ways, how
35:24-35:31
to navigate that, where that might have come from has helped me not only in poly, but yeah,
35:31-35:35
as a parent, as a friend, as a person, Polysecure was really great.
35:35-35:40
And Polywise, I kind of flip flop on which book would be the first one that I would read
35:40-35:41
again.
35:41-35:46
But I've read them both and I really like Polywise a lot because I think that it gets
35:46-35:52
into more of the common conversation around poly and more and more non-monogamy and consensual
35:52-35:56
non-monogamy are becoming more and more open, more and more obvious, more and more out in
35:56-35:57
the real world.
35:57-36:01
More people are thinking about it, especially as we think about in the post-pandemic world
36:01-36:04
and the free regime world.
36:04-36:10
But Polywise kind of answers a lot of those questions around jealousy and agreements and
36:10-36:16
rules, but it gives a nice, I thought that it gave us readers the different aspects of
36:16-36:20
relationship, connections, sex, love, what does that mean?
36:20-36:23
How do you navigate escalations in relationships?
36:23-36:28
And it gives you some kind of rules of the road or some guidelines that you can kind
36:28-36:29
of navigate through.
36:29-36:33
And these are things I've adopted in my relationships and have worked out really, really well.
36:33-36:36
When everyone's on board, it works really well.
36:36-36:38
And so I really like Polywise.
36:38-36:39
It also has a workbook.
36:39-36:42
And both of them I think make great audiobooks.
36:42-36:46
I drive a lot, or at the time I was reading these, I drove a lot.
36:46-36:49
So this was often handy.
36:49-36:55
But also, I'm going back through both of the audiobooks and stopping to reflect and write
36:55-36:58
my kind of interactions with the books as well.
36:58-37:00
I own them both in hard copy.
37:00-37:04
Do you find that the lessons, because I remember in your intro you kind of talked a little
37:04-37:08
bit about how Polywise and Polysecure kind of formed your opinions of poly, but you also
37:08-37:10
talked about Leo Biscaglia.
37:10-37:15
So can you talk a little bit about what books of his, were they uniquely poly?
37:15-37:17
Because I'm not actually familiar with his work.
37:17-37:18
So I've known-
37:18-37:23
No, Leo, so Leo Biscaglia is an educator, teacher, professor.
37:23-37:30
And he taught a course on love at the university level and he talks a lot about love in general.
37:30-37:36
And so while these aren't poly resources per se, they do help you understand a little bit
37:36-37:38
more about what love is.
37:38-37:42
And I think that that's also a really nice entry point into polyamory.
37:42-37:48
So being new to polyamory and I was exiting a relationship, a very long-term relationship,
37:48-37:50
I went back to these books.
37:50-37:52
These are books that I read before.
37:52-37:56
And I went back to these books to remind me what love is, remind me what relationships
37:56-38:01
are, remind me of why I love the way that I love, for good, bad, or indifferent.
38:01-38:02
So there's two books I really recommend.
38:02-38:04
One is called Love.
38:04-38:06
The other one is called Living, Loving, and Learning.
38:06-38:10
The big question I get out of both of these is why do we love the way we love?
38:10-38:14
It's because we were taught by parents, we were taught by people who are older than us
38:14-38:16
to love the way that they love.
38:16-38:21
And so for me, this really identifies if you didn't learn to love well, it's probably because
38:21-38:23
your teachers didn't learn.
38:23-38:29
And he really unpacks this idea of unconditional love, this idea of being able to love someone
38:29-38:37
through their experiences, through their trauma, through their problems, through their hiccups,
38:37-38:42
or whatever it might be, has been a lesson that I have been able to pull forward multiple
38:42-38:47
times to be able to say, "This was a really hairy situation.
38:47-38:53
This was a really scary part of your life, and I love you anyway.
38:53-38:56
I'm struggling with it, but I love you.
38:56-38:59
And I love you through this condition, and we're going to get through that together."
38:59-39:05
And so this has been really my strength in dealing with rupture and repair, dealing with
39:05-39:08
how people approach relationships.
39:08-39:13
So it doesn't date well, doesn't age well either.
39:13-39:16
This is late '70s, early '80s type stuff.
39:16-39:21
So if you read it through that lens, that'll help you, again, unconditionally love this
39:21-39:27
book by saying, "There are parts of this that are problematic in today's, like 50 years
39:27-39:28
later."
39:28-39:29
- Yeah, I get you.
39:29-39:31
- Or 40 years later.
39:31-39:37
But if you, and fortunately I have the benefit of having been alive and cognizant at the
39:37-39:40
time that these books were written.
39:40-39:46
I know that societally, this was a very common norm that people look through.
39:46-39:49
And so if you can parse some of that out.
39:49-39:53
- Yeah, that's an important disclaimer.
39:53-39:56
But I find it- - Don't come at me and be like, "This guy's
39:56-39:58
old and is..."
39:58-40:00
I keep it, he is.
40:00-40:01
And you're eating cold.
40:01-40:02
- Yeah, I get it.
40:02-40:03
I get it.
40:03-40:04
- You know.
40:04-40:05
- He's older than me.
40:05-40:06
- He's still aged.
40:06-40:11
This concept, some of the terminology, some of the phrasing doesn't age well, but the
40:11-40:13
lessons age.
40:13-40:18
- I like that someone made a point of trying to teach people about love and communication.
40:18-40:24
I always joke that the things we need to learn in school are never the things that are taught.
40:24-40:26
There's no class on how to relate to other people.
40:26-40:27
There's no class on how to love.
40:27-40:28
Like you've read the Skaglio.
40:28-40:33
- Yeah, I've never read it, but now I want to because I see the value of that.
40:33-40:37
Tell me how to do my taxes, tell me how to balance a checkbook, and tell me how to-
40:37-40:38
- Tell me how to have a relationship.
40:38-40:44
- Yeah, properly communicate and have relationships with friends, with family, with lovers.
40:44-40:46
Those are the types of classes I needed in school.
40:46-40:48
I do not need to know Pythagorean theorem.
40:48-40:51
Sorry, Pythagoras, I don't.
40:51-40:55
- Unless you really get somehow to- - Yeah.
40:55-40:59
I'm sure there's some reason I need it, but I've not found it yet in all of my years and
40:59-41:00
career.
41:00-41:04
But I think there's one more on your list.
41:04-41:10
- This is actually a Tuli Reddit book, and that is "Open Deeply" by Kate Laurie.
41:10-41:16
This is a book that is on my list to read because she kind of outlines, it's like this
41:16-41:20
extends some of that thinking around ethical slant and polysecure.
41:20-41:25
It just rounds out that knowledge around being more secure and more steady through polyamory.
41:25-41:28
So it's a book that I want to read with my partners.
41:28-41:33
So we all, everybody needs their own therapist, but it's nice if we can read something together.
41:33-41:34
- Sure, sure.
41:34-41:38
I have to say reading ethical slant with my husband was really great.
41:38-41:40
Honestly, that was a good one.
41:40-41:44
Polysecure, we did not align on the value of that one.
41:44-41:49
But we want to say, so the authors of ethical slant, Janet Harding and Dottie Easton, actually
41:49-41:51
wrote another book.
41:51-41:54
So this is where we kind of derail a little bit from Holly and the kink.
41:54-41:58
If you are into the kink scene at all, or you're curious about it, or you want to know
41:58-42:03
more about that, or learning about the terminology, they had released two books called "The Topping
42:03-42:06
Book" and "The Bottoming Book."
42:06-42:08
So they're two separate books, depending on the lens.
42:08-42:10
I read both of them.
42:10-42:12
Both have tons of overlying themes with the other.
42:12-42:17
Bottom line of both of them is really heavily like consent-based, but it walks you through
42:17-42:21
kind of how to do things appropriately, things like boundaries, things like limits, stuff
42:21-42:22
like that.
42:22-42:27
So if you're interested in that side of your sexuality and you want a resource to kind
42:27-42:29
of, I would say dip a toe in it.
42:29-42:34
I would not say it's all-encompassing, but it is a good baseline for it.
42:34-42:40
I read it with one of my partners who I share that type of interest with.
42:40-42:43
And it is very heavily like consent-based in how to talk through it.
42:43-42:47
So if you are interested in that, that is a good resource to go pick that up.
42:47-42:54
Now I'm going to talk about my to-read list because my TBR list is always 10 times longer
42:54-42:55
than my read list.
42:55-43:00
My crowning achievement as an adult is I have a library in my home, so I read a lot.
43:00-43:05
My reading list, I just picked up "Monogamy in this Economy" by Laura Boyle.
43:05-43:08
It's a new release that came out recently.
43:08-43:12
It's something people joke about a lot, like, you know, is poly the new way to go because
43:12-43:14
no one can afford to buy a house anymore?
43:14-43:19
So interested to dive into that and see where that ends up.
43:19-43:20
- Not a question?
43:20-43:21
Oh, sorry.
43:21-43:22
- That's not a question?
43:22-43:23
No, Doc.
43:23-43:32
We recognize that things are changing and, you know, not only can one person not support
43:32-43:34
a household, maybe two can't either.
43:34-43:38
- I came from a normal family of eight parents.
43:38-43:42
That's the only way to answer that anymore.
43:42-43:48
- Like I said earlier, like, polyfamory, our close quad up there run by Tanya.
43:48-43:49
Yeah, Tanya.
43:49-43:50
Sorry.
43:50-43:51
I'm so sorry.
43:51-43:54
But, like, they're doing it right.
43:54-43:56
Like, they got four adults working for a household.
43:56-43:57
That's great.
43:57-44:00
But another one on my list is more than two.
44:00-44:04
I've heard it come up in a couple of circles as problematic, and I don't know much about
44:04-44:07
it, but I'm going to read it anyway just for funsies.
44:07-44:18
I also have purchased Polyamory in Parenthood by Jessica and Joseph Daylover of Remodeled
44:18-44:19
Love.
44:19-44:23
So, they wrote a whole book about navigating non-monogamy as parents of young children.
44:23-44:24
I did purchase it.
44:24-44:26
I did not illegally scrape it off the internet.
44:26-44:27
Don't do that.
44:27-44:28
Support content creators.
44:28-44:30
There is my plug.
44:30-44:33
But I can't wait to dig into that more.
44:33-44:36
And a lot of these I'm picking up, again, because I am writing a book, which I think
44:36-44:43
I mentioned, about a lot of the legal and social implications of being polyamorous.
44:43-44:49
So polyamory not being a protected class, like being transgendered or gay or, you know,
44:49-44:50
religious.
44:50-44:55
It doesn't fall under the, you know, equal rights act that you usually sign when you
44:55-44:57
go to a company where it's like, "We don't discriminate."
44:57-44:58
And guess what?
44:58-44:59
Polyamory is not on that list.
44:59-45:05
So I'm writing a book about being safe with your navigation of coming out as polyamorous.
45:05-45:08
It's going to be called Paperbag Polyamory.
45:08-45:13
And it's a lot of stories about, you know, the way you can navigate safely as you're
45:13-45:16
coming out in your polyamorous journey and probably some things you haven't thought about.
45:16-45:22
So a lot of these books I'm taking in information to kind of inform my own opinions on what
45:22-45:27
I can get back to help other people safely navigate their journey.
45:27-45:28
So other resources.
45:28-45:36
So other podcasts we listen to, groups, websites, places that we like to go to kind of get some
45:36-45:39
info.
45:39-45:43
There are two podcasts that I kind of want to call out straight out of the gate.
45:43-45:46
The Multi-Avory podcast.
45:46-45:49
I have been a long time listener, first time caller.
45:49-45:51
No, I never called them.
45:51-45:56
But I don't listen to them as much as I used to because I found several repetitive themes
45:56-46:00
and they are writing from a place where the podcast hosts were in a relationship with
46:00-46:05
each other, which changed the flavor of the content a little for me.
46:05-46:12
But they do have some fantastic episodes, some fantastic deep dives into great topics,
46:12-46:13
really good stuff.
46:13-46:20
I also picked up, I don't recommend this podcast overall just because they get off the rails
46:20-46:24
real quick, but there's a podcast by Glennon Doyle called We Can Do Hard Things.
46:24-46:29
If you've read any of her books, she was married and then decided like they were very religious,
46:29-46:30
I think.
46:30-46:36
And then she came out as gay, I think, and married her partner and they do this together.
46:36-46:37
And there's like a whole other thing.
46:37-46:42
But there's a couple of episodes on talking to other people about your relationship and
46:42-46:44
stuff like that, that I found very valuable.
46:44-46:49
I don't have specific episode numbers to call out and they've been doing this a long time.
46:49-46:54
But occasionally they have themes that are relationship adjacent that I think are valuable.
46:54-46:56
And as I find them, I will share them.
46:56-46:58
There's a bunch of podcasts out there.
46:58-47:01
We've mentioned this a lot, Remodeled Love also has a podcast.
47:01-47:06
And that podcast has gotten better and better over their time in podcasting, which has been
47:06-47:08
great.
47:08-47:13
And it's really an interesting experience to follow along Jessica Day-Lover's journey.
47:13-47:15
She's very out and proud of her polygamy.
47:15-47:18
And I like that.
47:18-47:19
Radical normalizing.
47:19-47:20
So they were on hiatus for a while with that.
47:20-47:21
Yeah, they were.
47:21-47:23
Yeah, they can't, yeah, they're back.
47:23-47:28
They started a little bit slowly and then started coming back.
47:28-47:32
And just to, it's been doing a couple of great, great recent episodes.
47:32-47:34
So Remodeled Love is out there.
47:34-47:35
Great podcast.
47:35-47:39
It kind of, again, that radical normalizing of polyamory, the issues that we face.
47:39-47:45
I want to layer on top of that, that Remodeled Love has a fantastic Discord channel.
47:45-47:47
So you have to subscribe, I think, to her.
47:47-47:48
And Multi-Amory has one as well.
47:48-47:49
They both have Discord channels.
47:49-47:52
So if that's a platform that you like.
47:52-47:56
I will say I really love Remodeled Love's one because I got a lot of value out of it
47:56-48:01
early in my relationships with my co-partners.
48:01-48:04
I could go there and I felt safe to be like, "Hey, I'm having this issue."
48:04-48:07
And I didn't have to have the Disneyland of everything's perfect.
48:07-48:12
But I actually met my comet there three years ago, which is just wild to me that we've known
48:12-48:13
each other that long.
48:13-48:16
But it was a similar situation where I was like, "Hey, this is me.
48:16-48:17
This is my situation.
48:17-48:18
This is what I'm struggling with."
48:18-48:22
And they jumped in and they were like, "Oh my gosh, we are living the same life.
48:22-48:23
This is also my constellation.
48:23-48:24
This is what I'm working on.
48:24-48:26
This is what I'm dealing with."
48:26-48:29
And we developed a beautiful relationship from that.
48:29-48:31
And I really, really enjoy that person.
48:31-48:35
So the community is a super valuable resource if you like Discord.
48:35-48:36
Either is great.
48:36-48:44
- And there's an amazing podcast called Normalizing Non-Monogamy, which is also really community
48:44-48:45
oriented.
48:45-48:52
And it's sharing ideas and perspectives and stories from yes, polyamory and non-monogamy,
48:52-48:59
but also the intersections of polyamory to race and gender and sexuality and identity.
48:59-49:03
And I think that, again, I'm a big fan of normalizing things.
49:03-49:08
It can be a little uncomfortable for people, but I really like the Normalizing Non-Monogamy
49:08-49:14
podcast because it's not banging the drums out there on polyamory.
49:14-49:20
It really is about painting up many perspectives of polyamory and sexuality, et cetera.
49:20-49:25
And I think for me, it helps me continue to find my identity.
49:25-49:30
I think for new folks too, and it'll help them find their voice and the feelings that
49:30-49:33
they have or the experiences that they're having.
49:33-49:35
And I think that that's a good thing.
49:35-49:42
And they do a fair amount of Ask Us Anything podcast, which it gives us such a tremendous
49:42-49:48
insight into the day-to-day questions that people have about poly and the perspectives
49:48-49:49
of those hosts.
49:49-49:50
Yeah.
49:50-49:55
I think it's really great to get all those different perspectives through other people's
49:55-49:56
voices.
49:56-50:01
And that's kind of why we started this podcast is we wanted to have our voice layered on
50:01-50:05
top of this because our perspective is unique based on our relationships and based on the
50:05-50:07
relationship we have with each other.
50:07-50:13
So it's great to be able to add our voices to that podcast list to bring something new.
50:13-50:19
I will also say that there are some mainstream, I guess, places that you can find poly resources.
50:19-50:24
I recently came across medium.com, which is obviously an online news place, but there
50:24-50:31
seems to be quite a lot of poly-focused content that's been appearing on there.
50:31-50:33
And a lot of independent authors and writers writing about it.
50:33-50:35
Some of it's junk, I'm not going to lie.
50:35-50:36
Some of it is junk.
50:36-50:41
But there's been some interesting ones that have come up about how people are navigating
50:41-50:43
certain situations.
50:43-50:50
And because it's on more of a mainstream channel, I think it's being a little bit more accepted.
50:50-50:58
I also have Google words for poly and non-monogamy, specifically research for my own book.
50:58-51:02
But it's nice to see a lot of mainstream channels are starting to talk about it and it's not
51:02-51:07
all negative, whereas in the past it had been all negative.
51:07-51:12
So there are still places that you can find stuff out in the wild.
51:12-51:16
But as always, take it with a grain of salt, because if it's in media, it's probably meant
51:16-51:18
to be sensational to get you.
51:18-51:19
Yeah.
51:19-51:26
And Substack also has a glazed polyamory community of writers that I really enjoy reading.
51:26-51:32
The last place I would want to point out is if you're still on Facebook.
51:32-51:34
There are Facebook groups that are-
51:34-51:35
What is a Facebook?
51:35-51:36
What is a Facebook?
51:36-51:40
So it's this ancient relic from the time of the mind space.
51:40-51:43
Is it like my face?
51:43-51:48
Only you don't have to decide who your top eight friends are.
51:48-51:54
So even though all the boomers are there and that's pretty much all the people that hang
51:54-51:57
out there now, they're- no, I'm kidding.
51:57-52:02
All things aside, there are some groups on there that are very valuable.
52:02-52:07
There is one called Poly Memes and Things that was the first poly group I ever joined
52:07-52:11
on Facebook and I am not active at all on Facebook.
52:11-52:15
But I went there for the memes, obviously, because I wanted some funny memes.
52:15-52:17
So the memes stayed for the memes.
52:17-52:23
Stayed for the content because people ask real questions and now they do it anonymously,
52:23-52:26
which gives them the right to say whatever they want.
52:26-52:31
But there are some great conversations about people navigating unique situations and just
52:31-52:36
having conversations about how to do things differently that I really appreciate.
52:36-52:42
When we did our glossary of terms, a lot of the terms that I was introduced to was through
52:42-52:43
that format.
52:43-52:45
There's a couple other groups on there.
52:45-52:48
There's like a poly life group and then there's a bunch of spin offs.
52:48-52:51
So like I'm high in poly life for like cannabis users.
52:51-52:53
There's poly life parenting.
52:53-52:55
There's poly life women.
52:55-53:02
Those are less so because there's a lot of hate going on in those groups, not gonna lie.
53:02-53:07
But there's also ones that are like poly and mono relationships, which are very unique
53:07-53:12
to people trying to untangle that type of relationship structure.
53:12-53:17
So if you are looking for groups on poly in Facebook, those are some good ones you can
53:17-53:18
find.
53:18-53:23
I will warn you straight up, unless you live in a major city, your local poly group and
53:23-53:29
your local non-monogamous group is probably not gonna be great.
53:29-53:35
I live in not a large city, but mid-sized city.
53:35-53:37
We'll say a mid-sized city.
53:37-53:42
I will say that my local poly groups, while there are of course some gems in there, a
53:42-53:46
large portion of what goes on in there are single guys coming in, trying to date and
53:46-53:47
being like, "Hey, what up?
53:47-53:48
I'm poly."
53:48-53:50
Tons of unicorn hunting.
53:50-53:56
It's basically meat markets where people who don't want to be in the apps go in there trying
53:56-53:57
to date.
53:57-54:01
So people join your local poly groups trying to meet other poly people to date with, which
54:01-54:06
is really hard if you're not in a major city, like trying to find somebody who is relationship
54:06-54:09
orientation aligned, very, very difficult.
54:09-54:14
But I will of course say with a grain of salt, if you're in those, I would say those groups
54:14-54:19
and you're trying to have meaningful conversations and have kind of the, "I'm experiencing this
54:19-54:20
problem.
54:20-54:21
Help me work through it," blah, blah, blah.
54:21-54:26
You're not going to get the level of response that you would from a global or a national
54:26-54:29
group like poly memes and things.
54:29-54:33
So find a bigger group if you're looking for advice and camaraderie and building and stuff
54:33-54:35
like that.
54:35-54:38
If you are looking to date, you're probably better off in the local groups or if you're
54:38-54:39
interested in meetups.
54:39-54:40
Just get on the apps.
54:40-54:44
Yeah, meetups, play parties, stuff like that.
54:44-54:46
You're probably better off in the apps.
54:46-54:48
Yeah, the apps are a whole other geography.
54:48-54:51
Geography plays a big part of it.
54:51-54:55
This is a problem my partners go through with one of my partners, particularly trying to
54:55-54:59
identify community in the place where they live.
54:59-55:01
I went there looking for friends.
55:01-55:04
What I got was a bunch of dudes in my DMs.
55:04-55:09
Yeah, basically, just trash, just trash.
55:09-55:15
Yeah, I did a partner through one of those groups, but it was very much like, "Hey, your
55:15-55:21
profile vibes with me and I want to talk to you about XYZ."
55:21-55:23
And we did not intend to form relationships.
55:23-55:29
It was meant to be a friendship because I was like, "Hey, you're being really cool because
55:29-55:31
we had similar interests."
55:31-55:37
But be aware your local groups might not be the best place to get advice or resources
55:37-55:39
or even anything other than-
55:39-55:40
I hope that they are.
55:40-55:44
If you're an admin of a group, don't come at us.
55:44-55:45
You're doing good.
55:45-55:46
We're proud of you.
55:46-55:47
Thank you.
55:47-55:49
Yeah, admins do the work of many.
55:49-55:50
I appreciate the admins.
55:50-55:51
It's a poor ditch.
55:51-55:54
And if you have a good group that's running well, share it with us.
55:54-55:57
I'd love to know more about it and what that looks like.
55:57-56:03
I think that's one of the reasons that we started this podcast was to form more community
56:03-56:07
and a more safe space so that people can learn about polyamory.
56:07-56:08
There's one more resource I want to share.
56:08-56:13
This is actually something one of my partners shares with me.
56:13-56:16
Folks through, and I've listened to the podcast.
56:16-56:20
The hosts of the, is this called the To Be Better podcast?
56:20-56:23
Chris and Peaches are the hosts of this podcast.
56:23-56:27
They are decidedly not polyamorous.
56:27-56:29
Let me just be clear.
56:29-56:30
They've talked about this.
56:30-56:31
They are absolutely not.
56:31-56:38
They are, I don't want to say, they are fervently is what I want to say, fervently monogamous.
56:38-56:45
What I like about the clips that it sent to me and some of the episodes are that it talks
56:45-56:51
about like your ability to dedicate to a relationship, your ability to dedicate to things.
56:51-56:59
And again, in the spirit of kind of just radical normalization, they provide a lot of courage
56:59-57:01
for being able to ask questions.
57:01-57:07
They provide a lot of courage for people to be able to, let's say, have the hard choice,
57:07-57:10
have the hard discussions, have the hard choices.
57:10-57:11
And I can appreciate that.
57:11-57:13
I don't always agree with their advice.
57:13-57:16
I don't always agree with their perspective and that's okay.
57:16-57:19
They don't claim to be therapists or experts.
57:19-57:24
They have just lived the life individually and together.
57:24-57:28
And I can appreciate that lived experience mindset.
57:28-57:31
But I do enjoy their dedication to each other.
57:31-57:38
I do enjoy how they support one another through good things, through bad things, their abilities
57:38-57:45
to not be afraid of one another and their ability to understand when each other are
57:45-57:48
having a moment, need different levels of support.
57:48-57:54
And this is something I really benefit from in that relationship is having that sort of
57:54-57:56
support for my partners.
57:56-58:02
And so that's a podcast that my one partner sends me clips on and I've listened to periodically.
58:02-58:05
I've certainly subscribed to it.
58:05-58:06
You know what?
58:06-58:09
And honestly, you should subscribe to this podcast.
58:09-58:10
Shouldn't you?
58:10-58:14
If you've gotten all the way to the end of this episode and you haven't hit subscribe
58:14-58:15
yet, then you should.
58:15-58:21
So this is our inaugural episode and we just wanted to position ourself in this amazing
58:21-58:28
landscape of content creators and thinkers and thought leaders in polyamorous relationship
58:28-58:32
circles, people who are putting their lives and their experiences and their knowledge
58:32-58:38
out in the world so that people like Kat and I or you can benefit more and keep expanding
58:38-58:44
around their polyamory relationships, their polyamory, whether it's just in their heart
58:44-58:47
or whether it's in the relationships that they have.
58:47-58:54
And I'm just glad that we can be part of a larger economy and larger landscape of people
58:54-58:56
who do good work and do good things.
58:56-58:59
And these are just some of our favorites.
58:59-59:03
But if you have a favorite, if there's something we didn't mention, if you have your own podcast
59:03-59:07
or your own Instagram account or whatever it might be, and you want to share it with
59:07-59:08
us, please do.
59:08-59:12
You can find us at PolyPathways Podcast.
59:12-59:14
But I was thrilled to go through this with you.
59:14-59:17
I like that we have the same and different feeds.
59:17-59:22
I think the best part of the fun of just knowing you is there's always good things to learn.
59:22-59:26
And that's the best part about it is everyone should be constantly learning and growing
59:26-59:27
and evolving and changing.
59:27-59:29
So be intentional, right?
59:29-59:32
Yeah, be intentional about your growth.
59:32-59:33
Share resources with us.
59:33-59:38
We'll share resources with you as we go through this podcasting journey.
59:38-59:41
And it's always an opportunity to continue the conversation.
59:41-59:46
This is not meant to be us starting a conversation and finishing a conversation.
59:46-59:50
This is meant to open the door to more conversation so that we can all learn together.
59:50-59:51
Thank you for being along for the ride.
59:51-59:57
We always appreciate you tuning in and we'll catch you next time.
59:57-59:58
Thank you for listening.
59:58-01:00:05
If you enjoyed this episode, consider subscribing and follow us at PolyPathways Podcast on all
01:00:05-01:00:07
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01:00:07-01:00:21
Take care.
Welcome to the Poly Pathways podcast, helping you create paths for practical polyamory.
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Your hosts are Kat and Doc.
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We're glad you're here.
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This is a very exciting episode today because we are going to talk about where we learn
00:28-00:31
all of these things that we talk about.
00:31-00:32
How do we get in each other's algorithms?
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Yes.
00:33-00:36
How do we mess up your algorithm with poly resources?
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So this is all about different social media accounts, groups, podcasts.
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Yes, other podcasts other than this one, discord channels, places that we go to find more information
00:47-00:50
and continue our education and development in poly.
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So a lot of these resources were instrumental in kind of forming our opinions and our thoughts
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and helping guide us to the place that we are today.
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So we're sharing some of them with you because as always, sharing is caring and you might
01:02-01:04
find value out of them as well.
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And this really is our polysphere, the people that we've learned from, the people that we
01:08-01:10
share their content out with.
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And it's our way of saying thank you to them for influencing our poly and helping us form
01:15-01:20
our own opinions and our own thoughts and ideas about how we poly.
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So maybe we start with how we often get asked about getting into poly, getting started with
01:26-01:27
poly.
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For me, a lot of folks who come to me and say, "Hey, Doc, I'm thinking about poly or
01:32-01:36
we're thinking about opening our relationship or I'm curious about poly."
01:36-01:40
The first place that I send people is social media.
01:40-01:45
Whatever it is, whether it's Instagram or TikTok or YouTube or Facebook or whatever
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their preferred social media landscape is, this is often an easy place to go to start
01:52-01:57
to see some information that's new and different, but it's super digestible.
01:57-02:00
It could be very small type messaging.
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It's important.
02:01-02:04
I'm not saying small, like it's inconsequential.
02:04-02:08
It's very important stuff, but it's done so in an easy format.
02:08-02:11
And it's often a place where people who are thinking about poly or they're thinking
02:11-02:16
about poly for their relationship can easily take in something and then send it off to
02:16-02:18
their partner or their partners.
02:18-02:23
I think for me, in my poly, social media is also really handy because the messaging seems
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to be hitting at particular issues or times that I need those particular messages.
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I certainly have my favorites and you have your favorites and because we follow each
02:31-02:35
other, our favorites are largely the same.
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And that's okay.
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And they'll probably become yours or not.
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Yeah.
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And there's some duds in this list that we'll call out too that we might have followed
02:43-02:47
at a particular point in time that we no longer follow and we'll kind of explain why that
02:47-02:49
is or why we think their content's changed a little bit.
02:49-02:50
That's right.
02:50-02:52
And it's not just poly, right?
02:52-02:57
Because being poly also means dealing with relationship issues and your mental wellness
02:57-03:00
issues and your insecurity issues right up front.
03:00-03:02
So it's not just going to be about poly.
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It's going to be good stuff for you in general.
03:05-03:09
One of my favorites, honestly, is Therapy Jeff.
03:09-03:11
So Therapy Jeff is great because it's-
03:11-03:12
How sarcastic.
03:12-03:13
Yeah.
03:13-03:18
There's certainly a lot of tongue in cheek, but also a lot of very like allowing you to
03:18-03:22
feel your feels about things.
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Therapy Jeff largely is not really about poly.
03:26-03:28
It is about relationships.
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It is about your mental well-being, but it is very smart information.
03:32-03:35
It's done so in a way that is very approachable.
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It's very digestible.
03:36-03:38
I love that he like numbers.
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It's like five things you should ask your partner, five things you should do this.
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And honestly, I think one of my proudest moments of following Therapy Jeff was when he came
03:46-03:52
out with his monogamish disclosure around largely monogamous, but I have this interest
03:52-03:54
in this other person.
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Does that make me poly or does it make me monogamish?
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And I really kind of that it further endeared me to Therapy Jeff.
04:01-04:02
Yeah.
04:02-04:08
He's definitely a good resource and I'll find myself thinking about issues or talking about
04:08-04:12
issues with my partners and all of a sudden like I'll see, boom, a bonus bit of content
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that is just perfectly aligned, which thank you algorithms for giving me that.
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And then I'll share it.
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So I find myself sharing his content quite a bit.
04:19-04:20
Yeah.
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And it's a therapy account that I really enjoy and that it's millennial therapist.
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And if you're wondering folks, right, we'll put it all in the show notes, but a millennial
04:28-04:32
therapist is also pretty pithy and smart.
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And while I am not a millennial, it doesn't mean that that information is not, not applicable
04:38-04:39
to my life.
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It's applicable to people's lives.
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And it is also very good content about kind of affirmation and wellness and security and
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feeling okay and feeling your best because if you're not feeling your best in poly, it
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definitely shows and it can definitely come out in some really uncomfortable ways.
04:57-05:01
So millennial therapist and Therapy Jeff were my two, those kind of my two beginnings.
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And maybe, maybe that's just a good place to start.
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Like are you mentally ready?
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Are you mentally okay for poly, whether you've been doing it for a while or you're new to
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it, are you mentally okay to continue this?
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Yeah.
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I'm a therapist that I follow as well.
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And we are going to link all of these because you'll notice there's a theme where a lot
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of them use the term poly.
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So it's like poly this, poly that, poly this, poly that.
05:24-05:29
So Study Poly Emery is a sex positive coach and therapist named Heidi.
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And I like a lot of her content.
05:30-05:34
She's like super sex positive, which I love because a lot of times in poly you'll hear
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people say, well, it's not about the sex.
05:36-05:38
Well, you know, sometimes it is.
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But I really, really enjoy some of her content that she puts out on how to navigate, you
05:43-05:46
know, when you are having lots of sex with lots of people, how to navigate transitions
05:46-05:50
in the relationship, you know, from high points to low points.
05:50-05:52
So she's another therapist that I really link to.
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There is one other therapist that I could not find her name.
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It's Dr. Something.
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And if I, if I find it before this episode goes live, we will add it to the show notes.
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They also have a very unique perspective on it from an actual, I believe she's a licensed
06:08-06:10
psychologist or psychiatrist.
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Like she actually has a very heavy list of credentials and her content is very much in
06:15-06:20
navigating transitions in relationships, not just poly alone, but a lot of her content
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is poly because she herself is.
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I'm going to find her account and add it to this list for you guys.
06:25-06:26
Well, that'll be good.
06:26-06:31
There are lists straight up at Poly Emery accounts that deal just with Poly Emery.
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One of my favorites really right now is Ready for Poly Emery.
06:35-06:41
This is a, this account really deals a lot with relationship anarchy, but relationship
06:41-06:42
styles.
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What I particularly like about it is it's very, very practical, especially for parents
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because she is a parent.
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She's written, she's written books about poly and that's important to know.
06:53-06:59
But particularly Monogamy in this Economy is her book that was just out this year, which
06:59-07:01
is really great.
07:01-07:08
But this is someone I enjoy a lot because she's a parent and that helps me kind of manage
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how do I talk about poly with my kiddos and help them understand kind of my relationship
07:14-07:16
way in the world and what does that look like.
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But it's also just really practical advice on poly.
07:19-07:20
Yeah.
07:20-07:24
And there are two accounts that I follow that I actually really love for their lens on the
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parenthood side.
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So obviously Doc and I are both parents.
07:28-07:37
Poly Famery is the, it's run by a woman named Tanya and it is a closed quad situation.
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So basically the women are both dating both of the husbands.
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So it's two guys and two girls.
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Both of the women are dating both of the men, but the men are not dating each other and
07:47-07:49
the women are not dating each other.
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So it's strictly like hetero in that sense, which is kind of interesting because usually
07:53-07:54
you see a lot of crossover.
07:54-08:00
If I'm remembering correctly, Tanya is actually a bisexual, I believe, or pansexual, but they
08:00-08:03
are a close quad with children.
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They have had children since being together.
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They have children from the existing relationships prior to coming in.
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But it's a really interesting take because a lot of their content is obviously inclusive
08:15-08:20
of their mixed family children and the children that they've had together while being together.
08:20-08:24
And it has a lot of underlying themes that are really beautiful and really interesting
08:24-08:30
on how to navigate where it's like, "Hey, we're a family of four adults and all of these
08:30-08:31
children."
08:31-08:32
I think they have like five children.
08:32-08:33
I don't know.
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I don't remember off the top of my head, but they have several children and how to present
08:37-08:41
as a family unit in that sense is really unique and interesting and illuminating for people
08:41-08:46
who are struggling with how to talk to children, how to talk around children, how to be around
08:46-08:47
children.
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And the other account that I follow that is also children specific, which I'm going to
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mention in the resources later is Remodeled Love.
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So Just A Lover actually runs that account.
08:59-09:01
And I have a funny story about that.
09:01-09:06
I was standing behind her at Electric Forest and I knew exactly who she was and she was
09:06-09:11
publishing all her content and I really wanted to meet her, but I chickened out.
09:11-09:16
She was there at 32 Prenz and I was like, "Oh, I can finally meet someone I followed
09:16-09:19
on Instagram for all this time."
09:19-09:23
And I basically chickened out because I was like, her feet were hurting really bad and
09:23-09:27
she kept posting about her feet were hurting and I felt really bad and I was like, "Oh,
09:27-09:31
I don't want to like walk up to her and be like, 'Oh my God, I love your content.'"
09:31-09:35
But her and her husband who have a non-sexual relationship and then they have other partners
09:35-09:40
that are involved in their polycule, they have children together as well.
09:40-09:45
So they talk a lot about what it's like their children have medical issues and things that
09:45-09:49
they talk about all the time and about advocating as a family and about how that looks a little
09:49-09:52
differently when there are other partners.
09:52-09:57
And there have been several partners that have come and gone during their time raising
09:57-09:58
their children.
09:58-10:02
And I think how they handle those conversations with those people entering and exiting their
10:02-10:05
life is really interesting.
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But they're also really skilled at how to navigate negative conversations because they've
10:09-10:13
been on the receiving end of a lot of negative talk about their family unit.
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So I think that's really interesting as well.
10:15-10:18
I'm not alone is really out and proud, right?
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And so they invite a lot of ire and navigate that really well and a great podcast as well.
10:25-10:26
Yeah.
10:26-10:30
And I know they do a lot of content around kind of some of the fringe spaces like transitioning,
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staying married and transitioning into a non-sexual relationship with basically your legally-butted
10:38-10:44
partner but also really, I know, oh gosh, what's his name?
10:44-10:52
Her husband did an amazing section on basically reluctantly becoming polyamorous and talking
10:52-10:58
about how to transition himself and his way of thinking and navigating a lot of those
10:58-10:59
changes.
10:59-11:01
It wasn't polyandered duress but what it brought up to him.
11:01-11:06
I think that was really helpful to hear that from his perspective.
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So great content there.
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Yeah, for sure.
11:09-11:13
Another account that I really – that's kind of along that kind of coaching line,
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one of the accounts that I really like is Chill Polyamory.
11:17-11:19
She's lovely, right?
11:19-11:25
Just really, really brilliant, insightful, practical advice.
11:25-11:29
But what I kind of love about it is it's answering like really key questions one at
11:29-11:36
a time in a very – just a very friendly way and very much like a steward of the polyamory
11:36-11:38
community, right?
11:38-11:42
Is there not only to provide information but also support.
11:42-11:44
She doesn't gatekeep anything.
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She lets everybody know what her thoughts are and from her perspective and how to do
11:49-11:50
poly better.
11:50-11:55
But I think that even just the name Chill Polyamory should tell you a lot about this
11:55-11:56
account, right?
11:56-12:00
Whether it's on Instagram or YouTube but it's really just – it's chill.
12:00-12:03
Like it's like this isn't a big deal.
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Poly can be hard and poly can be intimidating but I think the Chill Polyamory account makes
12:08-12:09
it super approachable.
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It's very low entry stuff and it gets you into that – it gets you into the polyamory
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pool nice and easy and just a really – I feel always really supported when I watch
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the videos or listen to what she has to say about a particular issue around poly.
12:25-12:28
Yeah, and I did just discover that she has her own podcast.
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I have not listened to it but it's called I Could Never which is something people often
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hear.
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I will confess I have a little bit of a crush on Genevieve.
12:38-12:39
So I think she's adorable.
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I love listening to her voice because her content and the way she presents it is always
12:43-12:45
very – like you said, it's very chill.
12:45-12:51
It's very like the wavelength is just very digestible and it just really – I just love
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listening to her talk.
12:52-12:53
Yeah.
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Yeah, I totally have a crush on her and I'm not afraid to admit that.
12:56-13:01
Another account that I absolutely have a crush on is Chad who I don't believe is actually
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on Instagram right now.
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I think he zipped himself off of Instagram and is on YouTube.
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So the account was PolyamFam and there was like a couple of episodes he did and I've
13:13-13:15
been following these people for a long time.
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So I know like their storylines and all that stuff.
13:18-13:22
There was an episode where like him and his wife and there were partners coming over for
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like a D&D game.
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There's a lot of D&D content which resonates with me and I remember being like –
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It does not resonate with me.
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It does not.
13:30-13:34
So that's another – I am the D&D poly sort.
13:34-13:38
Which is like a whole subset of like you got your kinky polyamorous, your D&D polyamorous,
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your Magic the Gathering polyamorous, your Ren Faire, all those subcategories.
13:43-13:45
But he was basically coming over for D&D.
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I'm like I want to join his polycule.
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I want to date him and his wife.
13:48-13:54
And I fully admit that I had a full on crush on this guy because he was just so funny and
13:54-13:59
the content was so fresh and it was just so like really, really – Like it always hit
13:59-14:04
on like really relevant topics and it made light – Like he did these ones where he
14:04-14:07
would go back and forth as different characters of himself.
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I'm like the bro dude at a party like trying to like get with people.
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And it was a funny take on like real scenarios that I think made it more relatable.
14:16-14:18
So I really, really enjoyed his content.
14:18-14:22
It is one of the few YouTube channels that I actually subscribe to.
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YouTube is not my main channel.
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So I did actually seek him out on another platform because I know he was taking a break
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from Instagram for a while because the algorithms were being real mean to him.
14:32-14:33
So who else do you have on your list?
14:33-14:36
Honestly, we have a shared one with Annie Undone.
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Ooh, I have opinions.
14:39-14:40
Do you?
14:40-14:41
Okay.
14:41-14:44
So I really like Annie Undone for a couple of reasons.
14:44-14:50
One is because she does talk about polyamory a lot but it's not specific to polyamory.
14:50-14:52
These are good things to know in any relationship.
14:52-14:57
But one of the things that I really like is her vulnerability about poly, her vulnerability
14:57-15:00
around this too makes me uncomfortable.
15:00-15:01
I don't like this.
15:01-15:03
And those feelings are valid.
15:03-15:09
And here's what I experienced and here's how I did things.
15:09-15:15
I also, I'm kind of akin to her story a little bit, how she arrived at poly.
15:15-15:21
It's not exactly the same story as mine but it's in the same sphere of my story.
15:21-15:25
But I really, I like, there are times where there are, there are certainly there are posts
15:25-15:28
where I'm like, "Uh, that's, I can't quite get to."
15:28-15:32
But I absolutely appreciate that she's vulnerable about it.
15:32-15:34
She's honest and transparent about it.
15:34-15:39
And her authenticity, I think, really validates a lot of feelings that I have or people that
15:39-15:42
I know have in the poly space.
15:42-15:44
And she just, she's a great voice for that.
15:44-15:48
And because regardless of whether what they have to say or what they have to think is
15:48-15:52
like okay or normal, it is the feeling they have.
15:52-15:54
And so that means that it's valid.
15:54-15:56
And so now we have to deal with that.
15:56-16:00
And I think Annie Undone does a good job of making that available to people and making
16:00-16:03
it safe to say that, "Yes, I have this feeling.
16:03-16:07
I know it feels irrational but this is the feeling that I have."
16:07-16:13
And she does a real good job of reflecting back and redirecting back into really positive
16:13-16:14
ways.
16:14-16:15
LS: Yeah.
16:15-16:19
I have had the benefit of watching her evolution of content.
16:19-16:26
So my comment actually introduced me to her a few years ago when Annie was still married.
16:26-16:28
She was still doing faceless content.
16:28-16:29
She would not show her face.
16:29-16:31
She was actually wearing a wig, I think, for most of her content.
16:31-16:34
And she was hiding her identity.
16:34-16:39
And I believe she was married to a partner and they were exploring it together.
16:39-16:40
And then a bunch of stuff happened.
16:40-16:44
She ended up separating from that partner and her evolution over time.
16:44-16:47
The tone of her content changed.
16:47-16:52
So whereas I used to find it very uplifting and very illuminating and things like that,
16:52-16:54
it got to a point where it was kind of angry for me.
16:54-16:56
And I understand that was part of her healing journey.
16:56-17:01
And she was healing out loud, which I find very, very admirable.
17:01-17:05
To be vulnerable with both yourself and the public at that time is huge.
17:05-17:08
And I wish more people did that.
17:08-17:12
But I've reached a place with her content now and her journey where she is today where
17:12-17:15
I don't find it valuable for me anymore.
17:15-17:22
So if you're going through her content in the past, you might find some stuff that's
17:22-17:23
really valuable to your journey.
17:23-17:27
But a lot of her journey now I think is relationship anarchy based.
17:27-17:30
And it just doesn't resonate as much with me.
17:30-17:35
I think it's still super valuable, of course, but on my personal level, I'm not saying it's
17:35-17:36
not good.
17:36-17:37
I'm just saying it's not for me anymore.
17:37-17:42
So I've kind of drifted away from her account a little bit, I think, because of that.
17:42-17:45
But honestly, one of the accounts that I really like is Polly Lovers.
17:45-17:48
This is an account you and I both follow as well.
17:48-17:54
But it definitely deals with regular people, regular Polly type issues.
17:54-18:00
But it also deals with things like pink and the lighter side of things and relationship
18:00-18:01
type stuff.
18:01-18:06
And so it's a good place to find some kind of funny memes that will certainly feel that
18:06-18:07
you will feel called out on.
18:08-18:11
But we appreciate that content that's lighthearted too.
18:11-18:12
Yeah, right.
18:12-18:15
Yeah, holy, I really like that.
18:15-18:16
It is.
18:16-18:25
I really like there's an account called Polly Loki, L-O-K-I-I, that does cartoons.
18:25-18:30
And it's like fun cartoons of like scenarios that I believe are like kind of a triad right
18:30-18:32
now, but like that they go through.
18:32-18:38
And I always appreciate the lighthearted, funny approach to my content.
18:38-18:41
Because you don't always want to be lectured to and you don't always want to just sit there
18:41-18:47
and read like, "Oh man, this is some deep emotional work on my 1130 doom scroll."
18:47-18:50
Not always in that mind space for it.
18:50-18:53
So sometimes you just want it in a different format.
18:53-18:56
And I appreciate the things that kind of bring that levity to it.
18:56-18:57
Yeah.
18:57-18:58
And again, it's super practical, right?
18:58-19:05
I mean, it deals with things like the dangers of comparing and other types of really just,
19:05-19:08
it's just a really good, really good feed.
19:08-19:13
Another account that I absolutely love, and I'd be remiss to not mention it, is Andrea's
19:13-19:15
account Infinite Pollyam.
19:15-19:19
So it's not as big, I don't think, as some of these other accounts.
19:19-19:26
But when I first stumbled across her content, I was so excited because a lot of the accounts
19:26-19:30
and a lot of people that are out there are like, the traditional, "Oh, I'm a bisexual
19:30-19:34
woman with a man and a woman and blah, blah, blah."
19:34-19:40
Or I'm super duper out there doing everybody and their brother and that's fine.
19:40-19:44
But her account really resonated with me because she was a woman in a relationship with two
19:44-19:48
men and both were partners fairly long term.
19:48-19:50
She gets a lot of comments about like, "Oh, this isn't going to last," and things like
19:50-19:51
that.
19:51-19:56
And I was like, "Hey, by the way, it's been years," which is similar to my story.
19:56-20:02
So to find somebody that was so closely aligned to kind of the path that I'm living and the
20:02-20:07
storyline that I'm living was really exciting for me.
20:07-20:09
Plus I've had a few side conversations with her.
20:09-20:12
I don't know if she'll ever put the two and two together because obviously my identity
20:12-20:15
is different here than it is on Instagram.
20:15-20:20
But I really appreciate some of the conversations that we've had and she's actually provided
20:20-20:24
me some insights and stories that I'm going to be using in my book.
20:24-20:25
She's giving me permission.
20:25-20:30
So I think she's just a really great creator for another lens within Polly for people that
20:30-20:33
are like seeking out that type of relationship.
20:33-20:39
I'm going to circle back to an account on Instagram that is long, I don't want to say
20:39-20:45
long defunct, but it has a post since 2003 and that's PollyAnnProud.
20:45-20:51
So this is the new Polly flag creator, right?
20:51-20:56
But the stuff that's out there is still really good.
20:56-20:58
It's just, it hasn't been updated in a while.
20:58-21:01
So it's an account you have to kind of go visit to kind of look back on.
21:01-21:10
But what I found in there was I think at first was I could see an identity and feel like
21:10-21:14
I belong to something, to a community like PollyAnnProud.
21:14-21:21
And it made it okay for me to explore those ideas that I'm going through in Polly.
21:21-21:25
I wish it was still running, but I think it was at its peak when we were trying to determine
21:25-21:31
the new Polly Amorous flag, which did come out, which is, I still think it's way better
21:31-21:32
than the old one.
21:32-21:33
The old one had like the pie symbol on it.
21:33-21:37
It was like a whole thing like that.
21:37-21:42
I have two other ones that I don't follow as closely that I think are worth mentioning.
21:42-21:46
So Kate the Button Lady, I followed her for a long time.
21:46-21:50
And I don't really have strong opinions about the content, but every once in a while I'll
21:50-21:54
go back and be like, "Oh, I wonder what she's up to."
21:54-22:00
And then Pollyphilia Blah is run by Leanne.
22:00-22:03
And I adore this content.
22:03-22:04
I eat it up all the time.
22:04-22:06
I think it's great.
22:06-22:08
Really top notch stuff.
22:08-22:10
So many topics are covered.
22:10-22:18
So many unique topics based on – she recently talked about her long-term friends with benefits.
22:18-22:23
We're talking like years and years, which is just so uncommon.
22:23-22:25
She calls that out like, "Yeah, why aren't you guys actually dating?"
22:25-22:26
All this other stuff.
22:26-22:31
And there's just the constellations that she has are incredible.
22:31-22:36
I feel like she has such a healthy view of it and so many unique perspectives.
22:36-22:41
And it's really just super interesting to me to hear what she has to say and get her
22:41-22:42
perspective on things.
22:42-22:44
Yeah.
22:44-22:52
And I think one of the accounts that I really like out there is one called Open Relating.
22:52-23:00
This is another relationship coach and therapist who deals a lot with multi-amory, polyamory,
23:00-23:02
open relationships.
23:02-23:06
And I really like Open Relating for a couple reasons.
23:06-23:10
One is I find the voice particularly gentle.
23:10-23:14
It absolutely validates what you're feeling.
23:14-23:17
It makes sure that you know that that is okay and that is real.
23:17-23:23
It is also really helpful to expand on definitions to help you understand what these words are,
23:23-23:26
these things that you hit on when you get into polyamory.
23:26-23:30
It answers key questions, whether you're new or experienced.
23:30-23:32
And it's just a really helpful account.
23:32-23:37
I find myself forwarding a lot of the messages from Open Relating.
23:37-23:41
But also, I think one of the things that I admire about the account, Open Relating really
23:41-23:46
is, he's really developing a community of people and developing not just a community
23:46-23:49
of people digitally, but also in real life.
23:49-23:51
And I think that that's really great.
23:51-23:54
I was just talking about this with one of my partners.
23:54-23:57
It's just this idea of physical community space.
23:57-24:02
Like, no, we're not all dating each other, but to be able to have a friend that's poly,
24:02-24:07
to be able to talk to somebody that's poly, and the differences in location.
24:07-24:11
And Open Relating, it's just kind of that digital space for me to think about how I
24:11-24:13
would form a community of people.
24:13-24:19
Well, it's not all roses and sunshines, unfortunately, out there in social media land.
24:19-24:26
And the interesting part is, I found some polyamorous accounts that are, I don't want
24:26-24:31
to say they're toxic, but they make you kind of question if you're doing things the right
24:31-24:32
way.
24:32-24:35
And there was one in particular that I actually had to look up before we recorded this, and
24:35-24:40
I actually had to ask my comment to tell me who it was, because I had forgotten.
24:40-24:45
But there was an account that basically proudly declared that they were unicorn hunting.
24:45-24:51
And unicorn hunting is, of course, a bisexual woman or a bisexual couple.
24:51-24:54
It's a couple looking for a third, basically, is how you talk about it.
24:54-24:59
And we talk about that more in our terminology episode, our bonus episode.
24:59-25:03
But basically, this account was saying, "Yeah, we date."
25:03-25:07
Their pinned post is literally like, "We're a couple that dates women together."
25:07-25:09
And textbook unicorn hunting.
25:09-25:12
And the interesting part about their content and about social media in general is some
25:12-25:16
of their content says the things.
25:16-25:22
It says the right things, but it sounds hollow based on how they navigate and represent their
25:22-25:24
relationships that they go through.
25:24-25:26
Where it's like, "Well, what if somebody only wants to date one person?"
25:26-25:28
And they're like, "Yeah, of course, that's fine.
25:28-25:29
This is when it happened to us."
25:29-25:34
But it didn't actually happen because I can only imagine the conversations that were happening
25:34-25:37
that made that feel uncomfortable for that third.
25:37-25:42
So even though they're presenting as informed, the account is pursuit of poly.
25:42-25:45
They do a lot of fun dance moves.
25:45-25:47
I think they're music recording artists.
25:47-25:54
So in general, it feels to me vaguely toxic or toxic adjacent, but it also just feels
25:54-26:01
like a publicity stunt, which is not something I super enjoy in polyamorous content.
26:01-26:07
There is an account that displays some toxic polyamory that I do find really entertaining
26:07-26:08
and I actually love them.
26:08-26:13
And please don't come in my DMs and yell at me because I love, love, love, love your account.
26:13-26:15
So Dana and the Wolf is-
26:15-26:16
I love their account too.
26:16-26:17
I love it.
26:17-26:18
Wow.
26:18-26:25
Some of the, so it's a girlfriend and boyfriend.
26:25-26:26
I don't think they're actually married.
26:26-26:27
The girlfriend and boyfriend, they've been together a long time.
26:27-26:32
They live together and there's like, it's basically like a mini series on Instagram
26:32-26:34
where it's basically like reality TV.
26:34-26:39
And you know, because it's recorded that this is played up for the thing or whatever.
26:39-26:44
And there's storylines, but there's times when they're dating somebody and you're just
26:44-26:49
like, oh, so many red flags and then the person will continue dating them through the red
26:49-26:50
flags.
26:50-26:53
So it shows a lot of the bad side of poly.
26:53-26:54
And the real side.
26:54-26:56
Honestly, the real side.
26:56-27:03
I mean, look, do you know that sometimes the fun of red flags is ignoring them?
27:03-27:04
Yeah.
27:04-27:09
It's fun to watch and there's some good stuff in there where you're like, oh yeah, that
27:09-27:12
is definitely like positive language, positive communication.
27:12-27:16
And then there's some stuff and they're like, is this okay?
27:16-27:20
But I adore the crossroads, Dana and the wolf.
27:20-27:25
And it's basically like a mini series on Instagram that I cannot get enough of.
27:25-27:27
Like there's some plot points.
27:27-27:28
I'm just like, what?
27:28-27:30
Yeah, no, it's great.
27:30-27:31
And again, right.
27:31-27:39
It's, I mean, it's absolutely done up and it's, it's so, so a lot of times you see yourself
27:39-27:41
going, oh man, that is totally me.
27:41-27:44
That is not anything that I wanted that I should be doing.
27:44-27:50
But honestly, like when I came to poly, you know, this is where I started with social
27:50-27:51
media, right?
27:51-27:54
These were bite-sized chunks that you could get into your head.
27:54-27:57
It started to give voice to some of the feelings and thoughts that I had.
27:57-28:02
And it's a great, it's just a, not only is a great place to stay engaged and keep engaged,
28:02-28:04
but I mean, this influences us.
28:04-28:09
Like we're on the social media platforms where individually our podcast obviously has a place
28:09-28:13
which you should subscribe to the poly pathways podcast.
28:13-28:15
Just shameless, shameless plug there.
28:15-28:18
You should also be following our social medias.
28:18-28:23
This may just be, if this just may be enough for you, you may be like, look, social media
28:23-28:24
is enough.
28:24-28:25
I'm getting the headline versions.
28:25-28:26
I'm getting bite-sized chunks.
28:26-28:27
I'm getting everything that I need.
28:27-28:31
Certainly that's the large majority, but it's when you want to start digging deeper that
28:31-28:34
you might want to start looking at a couple of books that are out there.
28:34-28:36
You and I have a lot.
28:36-28:39
You're way more of a reader in this space.
28:39-28:40
I am.
28:40-28:43
I'm a reader in this space.
28:43-28:44
I feel like I could be doing more.
28:44-28:45
Oh, well, okay.
28:45-28:50
Well then we're both in the same place, but I mean, I read a lot for the day house, my
28:50-28:51
day job, right?
28:51-28:59
My day job requires me to read decidedly not polyamory things or a lot of times even fun
28:59-29:02
things, but I don't think my spicy books count.
29:02-29:05
No, no spicy books.
29:05-29:07
Spicy books can count.
29:07-29:12
But books is also a place where a lot of people go and here's my caution on this.
29:12-29:18
I've heard a lot of polyamorous couples dive into books.
29:18-29:21
They become textbook poly.
29:21-29:23
All about poly from the textbook standpoint.
29:23-29:27
I think that that's a nice counterpoint in social media because that's textbooks come
29:27-29:28
to life.
29:28-29:32
That's real life stuff, what people are really feeling.
29:32-29:34
There's just a lot of good books that are out there.
29:34-29:36
We have obviously got some of the same.
29:36-29:45
We have some different ones, but what are your books, Kat?
29:45-29:47
So I have a to read list.
29:47-29:52
Of course I do, but I have my list of the books that I've read that are good and I feel
29:52-29:54
like I'm lacking on here.
29:54-30:00
So I actually as writing this, I said the first book that I read about polyamory was
30:00-30:03
The Ethical Slut, which is actually not the first book I read.
30:03-30:08
So there is a book out there called Pagan Polyamory by Raven Kildera.
30:08-30:09
It was published in 2005.
30:09-30:13
I actually don't even think you can buy it on Amazon anymore.
30:13-30:16
I think it's like $70 because it's out of print.
30:16-30:21
My roommate had this book in college and this was kind of my toe into it.
30:21-30:22
I was like, "Oh, that's where I read it."
30:22-30:26
I was like, "Oh, I don't know that this is for me, whatever."
30:26-30:28
But I shelved it and it's actually in my library.
30:28-30:32
So sorry if I stole it from you.
30:32-30:35
Sorry to my roommate, but it's in my library and I picked it up a few years ago.
30:35-30:36
Not great.
30:36-30:43
Very heavily overlapping into the King's Base, but not a lot of great polyamory themes.
30:43-30:45
More pagan centric, I think.
30:45-30:47
So not really a great place to start.
30:47-30:52
Wouldn't recommend it unless you are, you know, pagan by nature and want to pick that
30:52-30:53
up.
30:53-30:59
But The Ethical Slut was my first book as an adult once I started claiming that poly
30:59-31:02
label and I really think it is excellent.
31:02-31:07
There are, of course, heavy sexual themes especially towards the end, but it really
31:07-31:14
talks about unraveling a lot of the mononormative culture that we kind of grew up in.
31:14-31:18
And yes, it's written by two women, so there's kind of a feminist flair to it.
31:18-31:22
But yeah, my husband and I read this together and a lot of it was like, "Oh my God,"
31:22-31:28
moments where we were like, "We didn't realize that, you know, a lot of the programming that
31:28-31:32
you receive, it's hard to unravel that."
31:32-31:35
So I think it really highlighted a lot of the points where we were just doing things
31:35-31:39
because that's what everybody does and it didn't really fit our relationship at the
31:39-31:40
time.
31:40-31:46
So it really was a great kind of deep dive into unraveling a lot of that like very Puritan
31:46-31:52
style culture and very heteronormative and mononormative upbringing.
31:52-31:54
So definitely recommend that as like a starting point.
31:54-31:56
It's an intimidating read.
31:56-32:00
If you've not ever seen the book, like just picking the book up, it's an intimidating
32:00-32:01
read.
32:01-32:03
It's a big book.
32:03-32:04
It's dense.
32:04-32:11
It was an incredibly eye-opening experience for me because I hadn't really consumed a
32:11-32:19
lot of media or literature or books on sexuality, love, relationships in general from that perspective.
32:19-32:25
And it was just like mind-blowing and being able to be open to learning those things.
32:25-32:26
It's a great book.
32:26-32:31
And almost any time someone says, "I'm struggling in this sexual aspect of my relationship or
32:31-32:36
my relationship in general," or, "I have more wants and needs than my partner," or, "We're
32:36-32:41
talking about poly," I usually kind of gauge their awareness through that ethical shlet
32:41-32:42
book.
32:42-32:46
And this is a great place to begin because not only does it help you understand it, but
32:46-32:51
how to navigate it, how to be better, how to change behaviors, and demystifying a lot
32:51-32:55
of that stuff, but also making it very okay to be above board.
32:55-32:57
It's okay for you to feel these feels.
32:57-33:00
It's okay for you to identify these identities.
33:00-33:02
It's okay for you to engender these genders.
33:02-33:03
This is all okay.
33:03-33:09
Both of us have Jessica Fern books on here, so you have Polywise and Polysecure.
33:09-33:13
Polysecure, I actually – and this is a hot take.
33:13-33:18
I don't find it very valuable from a poly perspective for me personally.
33:18-33:22
I did read it as an audio book, which I felt like mine is taking away some of it.
33:22-33:23
I feel like you need to go back and read it.
33:23-33:28
That's funny because I think that that's the right way to read Polysecure.
33:28-33:29
Yeah.
33:29-33:33
I actually found it super valuable as a parent.
33:33-33:36
Talking about the relationship styles and the attachment and stuff like that, the first
33:36-33:42
several chapters applied to me and hit me deeper as a parent and how I was relating
33:42-33:46
to my children versus my relationships.
33:46-33:49
So I think it was super valuable and I do want to go back and read it again because
33:49-33:52
I think this was like three years ago I read it.
33:52-33:58
But yeah, Polysecure in general I felt like was very helpful for relationships in general,
33:58-34:00
not just uniquely poly.
34:00-34:04
Maybe you have a different experience with Polywise because I did not read that one.
34:04-34:05
Yeah.
34:05-34:12
So like Polysecure is a great book and it is – the first few chapters, as you said,
34:12-34:14
were really challenging to work through.
34:14-34:20
There's a workbook that goes along with Polysecure, which is helpful if you're a workbook-oriented
34:20-34:21
person.
34:21-34:26
I actually really liked it on audiobook because I was able to hear the intonation of the book,
34:26-34:30
hear it a little bit, but also it prevented me from like setting it down and saying, "You
34:30-34:31
know what?
34:31-34:33
I'm a little called out here.
34:33-34:37
I'm not feeling super secure about the way that I was called out of my insecurities."
34:37-34:40
Is that called out?
34:40-34:41
It is.
34:41-34:47
Fern talks about this a little bit in her Polywise book, kind of in the introduction
34:47-34:50
of the Polywise book around why Secure came out first.
34:50-34:56
It makes sense when you hear it that poly really only works well when you're feeling
34:56-35:02
secure, when you're securing your attachments, when you're secure with your partner or at
35:02-35:05
least have enough security that you could deal with some of your insecurities that you're
35:05-35:07
going to find because those come up all the time.
35:07-35:08
Oh, yeah.
35:08-35:11
And in new ways and fun and interesting ways.
35:11-35:14
And so Polysecure is a good place to kind of go back to.
35:14-35:18
So if you're getting into poly or just in general, honestly, I think you're right.
35:18-35:24
Like if you're in any relationship, understanding your attachments, your attachment ways, how
35:24-35:31
to navigate that, where that might have come from has helped me not only in poly, but yeah,
35:31-35:35
as a parent, as a friend, as a person, Polysecure was really great.
35:35-35:40
And Polywise, I kind of flip flop on which book would be the first one that I would read
35:40-35:41
again.
35:41-35:46
But I've read them both and I really like Polywise a lot because I think that it gets
35:46-35:52
into more of the common conversation around poly and more and more non-monogamy and consensual
35:52-35:56
non-monogamy are becoming more and more open, more and more obvious, more and more out in
35:56-35:57
the real world.
35:57-36:01
More people are thinking about it, especially as we think about in the post-pandemic world
36:01-36:04
and the free regime world.
36:04-36:10
But Polywise kind of answers a lot of those questions around jealousy and agreements and
36:10-36:16
rules, but it gives a nice, I thought that it gave us readers the different aspects of
36:16-36:20
relationship, connections, sex, love, what does that mean?
36:20-36:23
How do you navigate escalations in relationships?
36:23-36:28
And it gives you some kind of rules of the road or some guidelines that you can kind
36:28-36:29
of navigate through.
36:29-36:33
And these are things I've adopted in my relationships and have worked out really, really well.
36:33-36:36
When everyone's on board, it works really well.
36:36-36:38
And so I really like Polywise.
36:38-36:39
It also has a workbook.
36:39-36:42
And both of them I think make great audiobooks.
36:42-36:46
I drive a lot, or at the time I was reading these, I drove a lot.
36:46-36:49
So this was often handy.
36:49-36:55
But also, I'm going back through both of the audiobooks and stopping to reflect and write
36:55-36:58
my kind of interactions with the books as well.
36:58-37:00
I own them both in hard copy.
37:00-37:04
Do you find that the lessons, because I remember in your intro you kind of talked a little
37:04-37:08
bit about how Polywise and Polysecure kind of formed your opinions of poly, but you also
37:08-37:10
talked about Leo Biscaglia.
37:10-37:15
So can you talk a little bit about what books of his, were they uniquely poly?
37:15-37:17
Because I'm not actually familiar with his work.
37:17-37:18
So I've known-
37:18-37:23
No, Leo, so Leo Biscaglia is an educator, teacher, professor.
37:23-37:30
And he taught a course on love at the university level and he talks a lot about love in general.
37:30-37:36
And so while these aren't poly resources per se, they do help you understand a little bit
37:36-37:38
more about what love is.
37:38-37:42
And I think that that's also a really nice entry point into polyamory.
37:42-37:48
So being new to polyamory and I was exiting a relationship, a very long-term relationship,
37:48-37:50
I went back to these books.
37:50-37:52
These are books that I read before.
37:52-37:56
And I went back to these books to remind me what love is, remind me what relationships
37:56-38:01
are, remind me of why I love the way that I love, for good, bad, or indifferent.
38:01-38:02
So there's two books I really recommend.
38:02-38:04
One is called Love.
38:04-38:06
The other one is called Living, Loving, and Learning.
38:06-38:10
The big question I get out of both of these is why do we love the way we love?
38:10-38:14
It's because we were taught by parents, we were taught by people who are older than us
38:14-38:16
to love the way that they love.
38:16-38:21
And so for me, this really identifies if you didn't learn to love well, it's probably because
38:21-38:23
your teachers didn't learn.
38:23-38:29
And he really unpacks this idea of unconditional love, this idea of being able to love someone
38:29-38:37
through their experiences, through their trauma, through their problems, through their hiccups,
38:37-38:42
or whatever it might be, has been a lesson that I have been able to pull forward multiple
38:42-38:47
times to be able to say, "This was a really hairy situation.
38:47-38:53
This was a really scary part of your life, and I love you anyway.
38:53-38:56
I'm struggling with it, but I love you.
38:56-38:59
And I love you through this condition, and we're going to get through that together."
38:59-39:05
And so this has been really my strength in dealing with rupture and repair, dealing with
39:05-39:08
how people approach relationships.
39:08-39:13
So it doesn't date well, doesn't age well either.
39:13-39:16
This is late '70s, early '80s type stuff.
39:16-39:21
So if you read it through that lens, that'll help you, again, unconditionally love this
39:21-39:27
book by saying, "There are parts of this that are problematic in today's, like 50 years
39:27-39:28
later."
39:28-39:29
- Yeah, I get you.
39:29-39:31
- Or 40 years later.
39:31-39:37
But if you, and fortunately I have the benefit of having been alive and cognizant at the
39:37-39:40
time that these books were written.
39:40-39:46
I know that societally, this was a very common norm that people look through.
39:46-39:49
And so if you can parse some of that out.
39:49-39:53
- Yeah, that's an important disclaimer.
39:53-39:56
But I find it- - Don't come at me and be like, "This guy's
39:56-39:58
old and is..."
39:58-40:00
I keep it, he is.
40:00-40:01
And you're eating cold.
40:01-40:02
- Yeah, I get it.
40:02-40:03
I get it.
40:03-40:04
- You know.
40:04-40:05
- He's older than me.
40:05-40:06
- He's still aged.
40:06-40:11
This concept, some of the terminology, some of the phrasing doesn't age well, but the
40:11-40:13
lessons age.
40:13-40:18
- I like that someone made a point of trying to teach people about love and communication.
40:18-40:24
I always joke that the things we need to learn in school are never the things that are taught.
40:24-40:26
There's no class on how to relate to other people.
40:26-40:27
There's no class on how to love.
40:27-40:28
Like you've read the Skaglio.
40:28-40:33
- Yeah, I've never read it, but now I want to because I see the value of that.
40:33-40:37
Tell me how to do my taxes, tell me how to balance a checkbook, and tell me how to-
40:37-40:38
- Tell me how to have a relationship.
40:38-40:44
- Yeah, properly communicate and have relationships with friends, with family, with lovers.
40:44-40:46
Those are the types of classes I needed in school.
40:46-40:48
I do not need to know Pythagorean theorem.
40:48-40:51
Sorry, Pythagoras, I don't.
40:51-40:55
- Unless you really get somehow to- - Yeah.
40:55-40:59
I'm sure there's some reason I need it, but I've not found it yet in all of my years and
40:59-41:00
career.
41:00-41:04
But I think there's one more on your list.
41:04-41:10
- This is actually a Tuli Reddit book, and that is "Open Deeply" by Kate Laurie.
41:10-41:16
This is a book that is on my list to read because she kind of outlines, it's like this
41:16-41:20
extends some of that thinking around ethical slant and polysecure.
41:20-41:25
It just rounds out that knowledge around being more secure and more steady through polyamory.
41:25-41:28
So it's a book that I want to read with my partners.
41:28-41:33
So we all, everybody needs their own therapist, but it's nice if we can read something together.
41:33-41:34
- Sure, sure.
41:34-41:38
I have to say reading ethical slant with my husband was really great.
41:38-41:40
Honestly, that was a good one.
41:40-41:44
Polysecure, we did not align on the value of that one.
41:44-41:49
But we want to say, so the authors of ethical slant, Janet Harding and Dottie Easton, actually
41:49-41:51
wrote another book.
41:51-41:54
So this is where we kind of derail a little bit from Holly and the kink.
41:54-41:58
If you are into the kink scene at all, or you're curious about it, or you want to know
41:58-42:03
more about that, or learning about the terminology, they had released two books called "The Topping
42:03-42:06
Book" and "The Bottoming Book."
42:06-42:08
So they're two separate books, depending on the lens.
42:08-42:10
I read both of them.
42:10-42:12
Both have tons of overlying themes with the other.
42:12-42:17
Bottom line of both of them is really heavily like consent-based, but it walks you through
42:17-42:21
kind of how to do things appropriately, things like boundaries, things like limits, stuff
42:21-42:22
like that.
42:22-42:27
So if you're interested in that side of your sexuality and you want a resource to kind
42:27-42:29
of, I would say dip a toe in it.
42:29-42:34
I would not say it's all-encompassing, but it is a good baseline for it.
42:34-42:40
I read it with one of my partners who I share that type of interest with.
42:40-42:43
And it is very heavily like consent-based in how to talk through it.
42:43-42:47
So if you are interested in that, that is a good resource to go pick that up.
42:47-42:54
Now I'm going to talk about my to-read list because my TBR list is always 10 times longer
42:54-42:55
than my read list.
42:55-43:00
My crowning achievement as an adult is I have a library in my home, so I read a lot.
43:00-43:05
My reading list, I just picked up "Monogamy in this Economy" by Laura Boyle.
43:05-43:08
It's a new release that came out recently.
43:08-43:12
It's something people joke about a lot, like, you know, is poly the new way to go because
43:12-43:14
no one can afford to buy a house anymore?
43:14-43:19
So interested to dive into that and see where that ends up.
43:19-43:20
- Not a question?
43:20-43:21
Oh, sorry.
43:21-43:22
- That's not a question?
43:22-43:23
No, Doc.
43:23-43:32
We recognize that things are changing and, you know, not only can one person not support
43:32-43:34
a household, maybe two can't either.
43:34-43:38
- I came from a normal family of eight parents.
43:38-43:42
That's the only way to answer that anymore.
43:42-43:48
- Like I said earlier, like, polyfamory, our close quad up there run by Tanya.
43:48-43:49
Yeah, Tanya.
43:49-43:50
Sorry.
43:50-43:51
I'm so sorry.
43:51-43:54
But, like, they're doing it right.
43:54-43:56
Like, they got four adults working for a household.
43:56-43:57
That's great.
43:57-44:00
But another one on my list is more than two.
44:00-44:04
I've heard it come up in a couple of circles as problematic, and I don't know much about
44:04-44:07
it, but I'm going to read it anyway just for funsies.
44:07-44:18
I also have purchased Polyamory in Parenthood by Jessica and Joseph Daylover of Remodeled
44:18-44:19
Love.
44:19-44:23
So, they wrote a whole book about navigating non-monogamy as parents of young children.
44:23-44:24
I did purchase it.
44:24-44:26
I did not illegally scrape it off the internet.
44:26-44:27
Don't do that.
44:27-44:28
Support content creators.
44:28-44:30
There is my plug.
44:30-44:33
But I can't wait to dig into that more.
44:33-44:36
And a lot of these I'm picking up, again, because I am writing a book, which I think
44:36-44:43
I mentioned, about a lot of the legal and social implications of being polyamorous.
44:43-44:49
So polyamory not being a protected class, like being transgendered or gay or, you know,
44:49-44:50
religious.
44:50-44:55
It doesn't fall under the, you know, equal rights act that you usually sign when you
44:55-44:57
go to a company where it's like, "We don't discriminate."
44:57-44:58
And guess what?
44:58-44:59
Polyamory is not on that list.
44:59-45:05
So I'm writing a book about being safe with your navigation of coming out as polyamorous.
45:05-45:08
It's going to be called Paperbag Polyamory.
45:08-45:13
And it's a lot of stories about, you know, the way you can navigate safely as you're
45:13-45:16
coming out in your polyamorous journey and probably some things you haven't thought about.
45:16-45:22
So a lot of these books I'm taking in information to kind of inform my own opinions on what
45:22-45:27
I can get back to help other people safely navigate their journey.
45:27-45:28
So other resources.
45:28-45:36
So other podcasts we listen to, groups, websites, places that we like to go to kind of get some
45:36-45:39
info.
45:39-45:43
There are two podcasts that I kind of want to call out straight out of the gate.
45:43-45:46
The Multi-Avory podcast.
45:46-45:49
I have been a long time listener, first time caller.
45:49-45:51
No, I never called them.
45:51-45:56
But I don't listen to them as much as I used to because I found several repetitive themes
45:56-46:00
and they are writing from a place where the podcast hosts were in a relationship with
46:00-46:05
each other, which changed the flavor of the content a little for me.
46:05-46:12
But they do have some fantastic episodes, some fantastic deep dives into great topics,
46:12-46:13
really good stuff.
46:13-46:20
I also picked up, I don't recommend this podcast overall just because they get off the rails
46:20-46:24
real quick, but there's a podcast by Glennon Doyle called We Can Do Hard Things.
46:24-46:29
If you've read any of her books, she was married and then decided like they were very religious,
46:29-46:30
I think.
46:30-46:36
And then she came out as gay, I think, and married her partner and they do this together.
46:36-46:37
And there's like a whole other thing.
46:37-46:42
But there's a couple of episodes on talking to other people about your relationship and
46:42-46:44
stuff like that, that I found very valuable.
46:44-46:49
I don't have specific episode numbers to call out and they've been doing this a long time.
46:49-46:54
But occasionally they have themes that are relationship adjacent that I think are valuable.
46:54-46:56
And as I find them, I will share them.
46:56-46:58
There's a bunch of podcasts out there.
46:58-47:01
We've mentioned this a lot, Remodeled Love also has a podcast.
47:01-47:06
And that podcast has gotten better and better over their time in podcasting, which has been
47:06-47:08
great.
47:08-47:13
And it's really an interesting experience to follow along Jessica Day-Lover's journey.
47:13-47:15
She's very out and proud of her polygamy.
47:15-47:18
And I like that.
47:18-47:19
Radical normalizing.
47:19-47:20
So they were on hiatus for a while with that.
47:20-47:21
Yeah, they were.
47:21-47:23
Yeah, they can't, yeah, they're back.
47:23-47:28
They started a little bit slowly and then started coming back.
47:28-47:32
And just to, it's been doing a couple of great, great recent episodes.
47:32-47:34
So Remodeled Love is out there.
47:34-47:35
Great podcast.
47:35-47:39
It kind of, again, that radical normalizing of polyamory, the issues that we face.
47:39-47:45
I want to layer on top of that, that Remodeled Love has a fantastic Discord channel.
47:45-47:47
So you have to subscribe, I think, to her.
47:47-47:48
And Multi-Amory has one as well.
47:48-47:49
They both have Discord channels.
47:49-47:52
So if that's a platform that you like.
47:52-47:56
I will say I really love Remodeled Love's one because I got a lot of value out of it
47:56-48:01
early in my relationships with my co-partners.
48:01-48:04
I could go there and I felt safe to be like, "Hey, I'm having this issue."
48:04-48:07
And I didn't have to have the Disneyland of everything's perfect.
48:07-48:12
But I actually met my comet there three years ago, which is just wild to me that we've known
48:12-48:13
each other that long.
48:13-48:16
But it was a similar situation where I was like, "Hey, this is me.
48:16-48:17
This is my situation.
48:17-48:18
This is what I'm struggling with."
48:18-48:22
And they jumped in and they were like, "Oh my gosh, we are living the same life.
48:22-48:23
This is also my constellation.
48:23-48:24
This is what I'm working on.
48:24-48:26
This is what I'm dealing with."
48:26-48:29
And we developed a beautiful relationship from that.
48:29-48:31
And I really, really enjoy that person.
48:31-48:35
So the community is a super valuable resource if you like Discord.
48:35-48:36
Either is great.
48:36-48:44
- And there's an amazing podcast called Normalizing Non-Monogamy, which is also really community
48:44-48:45
oriented.
48:45-48:52
And it's sharing ideas and perspectives and stories from yes, polyamory and non-monogamy,
48:52-48:59
but also the intersections of polyamory to race and gender and sexuality and identity.
48:59-49:03
And I think that, again, I'm a big fan of normalizing things.
49:03-49:08
It can be a little uncomfortable for people, but I really like the Normalizing Non-Monogamy
49:08-49:14
podcast because it's not banging the drums out there on polyamory.
49:14-49:20
It really is about painting up many perspectives of polyamory and sexuality, et cetera.
49:20-49:25
And I think for me, it helps me continue to find my identity.
49:25-49:30
I think for new folks too, and it'll help them find their voice and the feelings that
49:30-49:33
they have or the experiences that they're having.
49:33-49:35
And I think that that's a good thing.
49:35-49:42
And they do a fair amount of Ask Us Anything podcast, which it gives us such a tremendous
49:42-49:48
insight into the day-to-day questions that people have about poly and the perspectives
49:48-49:49
of those hosts.
49:49-49:50
Yeah.
49:50-49:55
I think it's really great to get all those different perspectives through other people's
49:55-49:56
voices.
49:56-50:01
And that's kind of why we started this podcast is we wanted to have our voice layered on
50:01-50:05
top of this because our perspective is unique based on our relationships and based on the
50:05-50:07
relationship we have with each other.
50:07-50:13
So it's great to be able to add our voices to that podcast list to bring something new.
50:13-50:19
I will also say that there are some mainstream, I guess, places that you can find poly resources.
50:19-50:24
I recently came across medium.com, which is obviously an online news place, but there
50:24-50:31
seems to be quite a lot of poly-focused content that's been appearing on there.
50:31-50:33
And a lot of independent authors and writers writing about it.
50:33-50:35
Some of it's junk, I'm not going to lie.
50:35-50:36
Some of it is junk.
50:36-50:41
But there's been some interesting ones that have come up about how people are navigating
50:41-50:43
certain situations.
50:43-50:50
And because it's on more of a mainstream channel, I think it's being a little bit more accepted.
50:50-50:58
I also have Google words for poly and non-monogamy, specifically research for my own book.
50:58-51:02
But it's nice to see a lot of mainstream channels are starting to talk about it and it's not
51:02-51:07
all negative, whereas in the past it had been all negative.
51:07-51:12
So there are still places that you can find stuff out in the wild.
51:12-51:16
But as always, take it with a grain of salt, because if it's in media, it's probably meant
51:16-51:18
to be sensational to get you.
51:18-51:19
Yeah.
51:19-51:26
And Substack also has a glazed polyamory community of writers that I really enjoy reading.
51:26-51:32
The last place I would want to point out is if you're still on Facebook.
51:32-51:34
There are Facebook groups that are-
51:34-51:35
What is a Facebook?
51:35-51:36
What is a Facebook?
51:36-51:40
So it's this ancient relic from the time of the mind space.
51:40-51:43
Is it like my face?
51:43-51:48
Only you don't have to decide who your top eight friends are.
51:48-51:54
So even though all the boomers are there and that's pretty much all the people that hang
51:54-51:57
out there now, they're- no, I'm kidding.
51:57-52:02
All things aside, there are some groups on there that are very valuable.
52:02-52:07
There is one called Poly Memes and Things that was the first poly group I ever joined
52:07-52:11
on Facebook and I am not active at all on Facebook.
52:11-52:15
But I went there for the memes, obviously, because I wanted some funny memes.
52:15-52:17
So the memes stayed for the memes.
52:17-52:23
Stayed for the content because people ask real questions and now they do it anonymously,
52:23-52:26
which gives them the right to say whatever they want.
52:26-52:31
But there are some great conversations about people navigating unique situations and just
52:31-52:36
having conversations about how to do things differently that I really appreciate.
52:36-52:42
When we did our glossary of terms, a lot of the terms that I was introduced to was through
52:42-52:43
that format.
52:43-52:45
There's a couple other groups on there.
52:45-52:48
There's like a poly life group and then there's a bunch of spin offs.
52:48-52:51
So like I'm high in poly life for like cannabis users.
52:51-52:53
There's poly life parenting.
52:53-52:55
There's poly life women.
52:55-53:02
Those are less so because there's a lot of hate going on in those groups, not gonna lie.
53:02-53:07
But there's also ones that are like poly and mono relationships, which are very unique
53:07-53:12
to people trying to untangle that type of relationship structure.
53:12-53:17
So if you are looking for groups on poly in Facebook, those are some good ones you can
53:17-53:18
find.
53:18-53:23
I will warn you straight up, unless you live in a major city, your local poly group and
53:23-53:29
your local non-monogamous group is probably not gonna be great.
53:29-53:35
I live in not a large city, but mid-sized city.
53:35-53:37
We'll say a mid-sized city.
53:37-53:42
I will say that my local poly groups, while there are of course some gems in there, a
53:42-53:46
large portion of what goes on in there are single guys coming in, trying to date and
53:46-53:47
being like, "Hey, what up?
53:47-53:48
I'm poly."
53:48-53:50
Tons of unicorn hunting.
53:50-53:56
It's basically meat markets where people who don't want to be in the apps go in there trying
53:56-53:57
to date.
53:57-54:01
So people join your local poly groups trying to meet other poly people to date with, which
54:01-54:06
is really hard if you're not in a major city, like trying to find somebody who is relationship
54:06-54:09
orientation aligned, very, very difficult.
54:09-54:14
But I will of course say with a grain of salt, if you're in those, I would say those groups
54:14-54:19
and you're trying to have meaningful conversations and have kind of the, "I'm experiencing this
54:19-54:20
problem.
54:20-54:21
Help me work through it," blah, blah, blah.
54:21-54:26
You're not going to get the level of response that you would from a global or a national
54:26-54:29
group like poly memes and things.
54:29-54:33
So find a bigger group if you're looking for advice and camaraderie and building and stuff
54:33-54:35
like that.
54:35-54:38
If you are looking to date, you're probably better off in the local groups or if you're
54:38-54:39
interested in meetups.
54:39-54:40
Just get on the apps.
54:40-54:44
Yeah, meetups, play parties, stuff like that.
54:44-54:46
You're probably better off in the apps.
54:46-54:48
Yeah, the apps are a whole other geography.
54:48-54:51
Geography plays a big part of it.
54:51-54:55
This is a problem my partners go through with one of my partners, particularly trying to
54:55-54:59
identify community in the place where they live.
54:59-55:01
I went there looking for friends.
55:01-55:04
What I got was a bunch of dudes in my DMs.
55:04-55:09
Yeah, basically, just trash, just trash.
55:09-55:15
Yeah, I did a partner through one of those groups, but it was very much like, "Hey, your
55:15-55:21
profile vibes with me and I want to talk to you about XYZ."
55:21-55:23
And we did not intend to form relationships.
55:23-55:29
It was meant to be a friendship because I was like, "Hey, you're being really cool because
55:29-55:31
we had similar interests."
55:31-55:37
But be aware your local groups might not be the best place to get advice or resources
55:37-55:39
or even anything other than-
55:39-55:40
I hope that they are.
55:40-55:44
If you're an admin of a group, don't come at us.
55:44-55:45
You're doing good.
55:45-55:46
We're proud of you.
55:46-55:47
Thank you.
55:47-55:49
Yeah, admins do the work of many.
55:49-55:50
I appreciate the admins.
55:50-55:51
It's a poor ditch.
55:51-55:54
And if you have a good group that's running well, share it with us.
55:54-55:57
I'd love to know more about it and what that looks like.
55:57-56:03
I think that's one of the reasons that we started this podcast was to form more community
56:03-56:07
and a more safe space so that people can learn about polyamory.
56:07-56:08
There's one more resource I want to share.
56:08-56:13
This is actually something one of my partners shares with me.
56:13-56:16
Folks through, and I've listened to the podcast.
56:16-56:20
The hosts of the, is this called the To Be Better podcast?
56:20-56:23
Chris and Peaches are the hosts of this podcast.
56:23-56:27
They are decidedly not polyamorous.
56:27-56:29
Let me just be clear.
56:29-56:30
They've talked about this.
56:30-56:31
They are absolutely not.
56:31-56:38
They are, I don't want to say, they are fervently is what I want to say, fervently monogamous.
56:38-56:45
What I like about the clips that it sent to me and some of the episodes are that it talks
56:45-56:51
about like your ability to dedicate to a relationship, your ability to dedicate to things.
56:51-56:59
And again, in the spirit of kind of just radical normalization, they provide a lot of courage
56:59-57:01
for being able to ask questions.
57:01-57:07
They provide a lot of courage for people to be able to, let's say, have the hard choice,
57:07-57:10
have the hard discussions, have the hard choices.
57:10-57:11
And I can appreciate that.
57:11-57:13
I don't always agree with their advice.
57:13-57:16
I don't always agree with their perspective and that's okay.
57:16-57:19
They don't claim to be therapists or experts.
57:19-57:24
They have just lived the life individually and together.
57:24-57:28
And I can appreciate that lived experience mindset.
57:28-57:31
But I do enjoy their dedication to each other.
57:31-57:38
I do enjoy how they support one another through good things, through bad things, their abilities
57:38-57:45
to not be afraid of one another and their ability to understand when each other are
57:45-57:48
having a moment, need different levels of support.
57:48-57:54
And this is something I really benefit from in that relationship is having that sort of
57:54-57:56
support for my partners.
57:56-58:02
And so that's a podcast that my one partner sends me clips on and I've listened to periodically.
58:02-58:05
I've certainly subscribed to it.
58:05-58:06
You know what?
58:06-58:09
And honestly, you should subscribe to this podcast.
58:09-58:10
Shouldn't you?
58:10-58:14
If you've gotten all the way to the end of this episode and you haven't hit subscribe
58:14-58:15
yet, then you should.
58:15-58:21
So this is our inaugural episode and we just wanted to position ourself in this amazing
58:21-58:28
landscape of content creators and thinkers and thought leaders in polyamorous relationship
58:28-58:32
circles, people who are putting their lives and their experiences and their knowledge
58:32-58:38
out in the world so that people like Kat and I or you can benefit more and keep expanding
58:38-58:44
around their polyamory relationships, their polyamory, whether it's just in their heart
58:44-58:47
or whether it's in the relationships that they have.
58:47-58:54
And I'm just glad that we can be part of a larger economy and larger landscape of people
58:54-58:56
who do good work and do good things.
58:56-58:59
And these are just some of our favorites.
58:59-59:03
But if you have a favorite, if there's something we didn't mention, if you have your own podcast
59:03-59:07
or your own Instagram account or whatever it might be, and you want to share it with
59:07-59:08
us, please do.
59:08-59:12
You can find us at PolyPathways Podcast.
59:12-59:14
But I was thrilled to go through this with you.
59:14-59:17
I like that we have the same and different feeds.
59:17-59:22
I think the best part of the fun of just knowing you is there's always good things to learn.
59:22-59:26
And that's the best part about it is everyone should be constantly learning and growing
59:26-59:27
and evolving and changing.
59:27-59:29
So be intentional, right?
59:29-59:32
Yeah, be intentional about your growth.
59:32-59:33
Share resources with us.
59:33-59:38
We'll share resources with you as we go through this podcasting journey.
59:38-59:41
And it's always an opportunity to continue the conversation.
59:41-59:46
This is not meant to be us starting a conversation and finishing a conversation.
59:46-59:50
This is meant to open the door to more conversation so that we can all learn together.
59:50-59:51
Thank you for being along for the ride.
59:51-59:57
We always appreciate you tuning in and we'll catch you next time.
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Thank you for listening.
59:58-01:00:05
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01:00:05-01:00:07
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01:00:07-01:00:21
Take care.
