Collection Reset – Working in Watches Changed How We Buy – Episode 91

WEBVTT
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Everything in our safe is an extension of
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you and me and our point of view and what we believe in and who
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we want to support and the watches that fundamentally get us excited,
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the same way kind of collecting is.
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This is Open Work, a look inside the watch industry, a podcast
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from Collective Horology. I'm Gabe Riley, co-founder of Collective,
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and I'm Asher Rapkin, co-founder of Collective. Collective Horology is
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an independent watch retailer based in Ventura, California. We carry a
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wide range of independent brands in Chapek, Niton, Bamford,
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London, and more. To learn more about us and check out our available
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inventory, visit collectivehorology.com. Gabe, it is the
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middle of August. Mm-hmm. We're almost coming to the end of our, of our summer
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holiday schedule here. That's right, summer hours are winding down.
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This will be the last sort of biweekly episode,
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or every 2 weeks, and then we're gonna be back to weekly
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in at Geneva Watch Days. I was
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about to say, we— yes, we head to Geneva in about 2
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and a half weeks now for the 3-day extravaganza
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that is Geneva Watch Days. And of course, only 3 days for us. It is.
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Yeah, got it. But plus travel, plus travel. But we will— and
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obviously we'll report from the ground, only on the ground for 3 days. We always
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say we're going to change that and then we never do. I thought we were
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going for longer. That's brutal. Okay. All right. 3 days.
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Oh my God. You know, I mean, it's, it's,
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it's far away and we have kids. It's tough, but it's exciting.
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We already know about several novelties that are coming at Geneva Watch Days, which are
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awesome. Some of them have already been announced. The Singer V72,
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for example. Just today we got a press release about some
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new releases from— oh wait, you don't want— you don't like it when I beep
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things. Yeah, I don't want to have to beep. You don't have to beep.
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Come on. New releases from— and some other releases from and
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a few more releases from— so pretty excited about all
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of that. But most of all, Geneva Watch Days offers a great opportunity. Don't forget
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all the terrible releases from the really, the really, the really boring
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watches. Exactly. The really bad watch from— but
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anyway, all kidding aside, Geneva Watch Days is a great vibe and an amazing
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opportunity for collectors too, because unlike Watches and Wonders,
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which I would absolutely not advise collectors to attend,
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Geneva Watch Days is really something, is really one of those unusual hybrid events
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that actually works both for the business and for collectors.
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They've really managed to figure that part out. It's, it's pretty remarkable. See, I'm waiting
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for it to cross over into an event where the industry
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focus sort of takes over and then the collectors are second
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fiddle. I hope you're just grouchy because Cannes Lions got taken over by all the
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tech companies. Well, I'm waiting sort of for the same thing to happen. It feels
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inevitable. That might just be the cynic in me. I hope that isn't the case.
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I hope that Geneva Watch Days remains pure at heart and
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remains primarily collector-focused. And the
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benefit of that for us is like the vibe is just way more—
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So when we, when we bring on board our new head of content, we should
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ask him to craft a narrative for Geneva Watch Days. Let's not, let's not do
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that. Yes, we are. Who's working on the narrative?
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I'm sorry. How many people did we just trigger?
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Yeah. And most people are like, what are they even talking about? But there's one
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guy out there who does know. So, hey, guy, I see you. Someone knows.
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But Look, one of the things happening at Geneva Watch Days that
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I think is interesting, the big headline, the big industry story, at least that we're
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aware of now, is what's happening with Galay. So of course
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we've reported here that Breitling purchased Galay.
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They acquired the brand recently and they are relaunching the brand.
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They're telling us September 3rd in Switzerland,
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probably in Geneva. I went hunting for details. I'm sure
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only the press and their retailers know exactly where it's
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happening, but they're officially relaunching the brand by— they sort of soft
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launched it like there's a website, there's an Instagram account. Any photos
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of the watches? No, but they, they, in their, in the content that
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they do share, it's very focused on the vintage chronographs, of course. Surprise, surprise.
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And this, I, you know, really around this territory,
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which I think is interesting from a business standpoint, of exploration.
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So what do you mean? Hiking,
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expeditions, those sorts of things. It feels very much in the world
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of kind of the Rolex Explorer, but which is strange for a
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chronograph. But more specifically, it feels feels like they're,
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at least from a brand positioning standpoint, they're kind of going after like
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the territory Bremont is trying to carve
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out, and at a similar price point. So Galet, they've said they're going
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to launch new watches. They'll primarily be chronographs. They'll be
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in the $3,000 to $5,000 Swiss franc range, so a
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notch below Breitling for, for sure. And they're
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very much going after this exploration and adventuring brand.
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That sounds more like they're going after Tudor. Yeah, I think
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Tudor's a bit all over the map. I mean, there's definitely like the North Flag
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was all about that. And then the Ranger, of course, is in that, in that
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space. But Tudor really flexes into diving,
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into racing, into cycling. Oh, I see what you're saying. So you're
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saying that their positioning is much more about outdoor exploration and adventuring.
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And that's definitely a territory like Bremont has
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gone after hard. Vacheron actually, to some extent, has done
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that. But boy, that's really interesting when you look at it in the context of
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just Breitling in general. So if you have this sort of like competitively priced
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fieldy slash adventure, you know,
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outdoorsy brand, then Bremont— pardon
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me, Breitling, which is, you know, obviously it's sea, land, and air.
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So yeah, it's a— the air thing is pretty broad. Yes,
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the sea, like they've done a pretty solid job of developing that too. So,
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you know, but, but definitely, yeah, Breitling is definitely air first.
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Yeah, and they have a long heritage in aeronautics that I think is pretty defensible,
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you know. And then you get to Universal Genève, which, look, I was discussed on
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the pod before, these watches, you know, I'll leave it up to someone to make
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a decision about whether it's worth it or whatever, but like objectively they're attractive,
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you know. So you have this sort of luxury upscale vintagey
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brand, you have this aeronautics-inspired luxury mass-market
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luxury brand, and now what it sounds like is sort of enthusiast-focused outdoorsy,
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you know, field watchy kind of thing. Yeah, feels like they're going after Bremont and
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Longines. From like a price positioning and a brand standpoint and
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all that and that kind of stuff. And, you know, and Longines, as we've discussed,
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has definitely been like making strides in getting collector attention, especially with that
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new diver. They have a lot of the same ingredients. Obviously, it's a,
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it's a storied heritage brand. Chronographs have been a focus.
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The price positioning is similar and all that kind of stuff. So it'll be very
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interesting to see. What we're hearing is it'll be chronograph focused, which again,
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I think is actually kind of unexpected. You know, when you think chronographs,
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you think automotive or you think medical
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uses like for pulsation or you think, you think of flying
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oftentimes, flight and aviation, but you don't really think of
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outdoor adventuring. Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see how they thread
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that, that needle. But that's where a lot of their content and their sponsorships
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are, are focused. And again, very much going after the lunch of some of those,
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those competitors. They're only going to be distributed, at least to
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start, apparently in Breitling boutiques. I did a little research. Well, does that
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mean authorized dealers? And apparently it means like Breitling-focused. Well, on the website
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it literally says like manufactured Breitling. Yeah, that's the other thing. They're sort of positioning
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Breitling as like Intel inside, you know, like giving,
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giving the Galet watches some credibility. I wonder if they'll run
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on B01 chronograph movements. I have no
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idea. I would find that hard to believe given the price point, but, but maybe.
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But it's, it's really interesting. They're using the Breitling brand
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to give some shine to Galet in the way that other brands,
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you know, with this house of brands setup similar to Breitling now, don't.
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Like Rolex, it's not like Tudor by Rolex.
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Or— well, it sort of was back in the day, but they never— they never—
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I mean, like, in the sense that there were like components. Yeah, but they didn't—
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it wasn't like Tudor by Rolex. Yeah, you know, and this is very much— yeah,
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you're right, on the website it's kind of like a Galley by Breitling, or they're
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reminding you that Breitling is involved, which is probably smart because most people
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have never heard of Galley. You know, it's a very inside world.
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Those who are familiar with the brand or would sort of view it as a
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desirable thing or very dialed-in kind of vintage collectors.
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No matter how you cut it, I'm curious. I'm very curious.
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So we'll see how they do it. The other thing that's interesting, the news from,
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from the House of Brands over at Breitling is they're joining
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Watches and Wonders this coming year, which makes sense now that they
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have this House of Brands. They can get all 3 probably into one booth
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again because presumably at retail, UG is
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going to be available through some Breitling boutiques. Galley is going to be available through
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300 Breitling boutiques. They can show up together. There's a clear link between
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brands. So there's a kind of an economy of scale for them, and they hadn't
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relaunched UG yet. Of course they did around the time of Watches
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and Wonders, but you know, they did it off the beaten path. Now they will
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have launched Galet with product, so kind
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of makes sense for them to join Watches and Wonders. But that was surprising because
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we sort of talked about Breitling as this rogue brand that kind of goes
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its own way and likes being a bit unpredictable. Yeah, look, all of this boils
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down to one very key fact, which has been proven again and again and again
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in the watch industry, which is underestimate George Kern at your own peril. Yeah.
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You know, I wonder if it tells us that, that they may be looking for
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additional doors for Galley. That might be a reason why they show up. Well,
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if we, if we go back to, to, as listeners know, my favorite
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brand, AP, you could— that was your theory. Well,
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that was my theory. How did it turn out? It turned out, so far as
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I can tell, to be untrue, which makes me wonder if maybe it
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really is like a media and press play. You know, and just like, well,
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we can't really get the attention if we're not sat at the table. Yeah.
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So it could be that. Yeah. So I don't know, but I
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am confident that especially based with what—
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and I haven't gone hands-on with them yet and I very much would like to,
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but everything that I've seen and heard in the live photos
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and by speaking to people who have had meetings with Universal Genève,
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the watches are really good. Yeah. And sure,
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they're on the higher end of reasonable, but I don't think they're unreasonable. For what
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you're getting. And I bet you with Galet, if they're smart and you look at
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it and it's sort of in the, you know, it's priced similarly, like reasonably or
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on the higher end of reasonable, but they're doing something really interesting with it.
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I'm interested. The other question that I find fascinating
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here is around Breitling boutiques.
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So this is an interesting one. So Breitling, Breitling is a brand that
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sort of sits, you know, there are enthusiasts that are into
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Breitling. Absolutely. Yes. Whether it's like Cosmonaut
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in particular, a lot of the quirkier watches, the Cosmonaute, the Aerospace. Yeah.
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Oh yeah, Aerospace Evo, great watch. May it, may it, you know, long may it—
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there are a lot of people who really love the, the dive watches,
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whether the Superocean. Yeah. And there are versions of the Superocean I
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think are pretty cool. But my point being, I think the majority of people who
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buy Breitling, you know, it's a major— it's a mass-market luxury
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brand. They move so many units that I think that there is a segment of
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it that is driven by enthusiasts, but there's also a pretty meaningful chunk of
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it that's just like, I want to buy a nice watch. Breitling is a brand
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that appeals to me either aesthetically or I recognize the brand. I'm going to go
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buy it. Yes, I think that's probably the majority of them. Yeah. So here's the
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question then. Galay is probably going to be much more of an
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enthusiast drive, at least at the outset. Who knows where the brand will develop,
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but certainly at the outset, Universal Genève for sure. So the
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question becomes, is the— are the Breitling boutiques equipped for
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that? Because that is a different profile of salesperson.
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And those Breitling boutiques— the other thing is I just thinking about when you say
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that, the way Breitling boutiques are built out, I will give Breitling
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credit for their boutiques. If you look at a Breitling boutique
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or a shop-in-shop, it definitely has its own vibe. It's very
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clearly Breitling branded. It's very clearly aviation focused.
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But there's a lot of like exposed brick, a lot of like leather.
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It's not quite like your central casting luxury
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watch boutique. You know, if you think of like if you run into like a
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JLC boutique boutique, or, you know, insert luxury
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Patek boutique, insert luxury watch brand here. Like,
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Breitling actually— it's a little more rock and roll, it's a little more rough
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around the edges, and has such a clear identity that's
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really focused around the Breitling brand and being different in that way.
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Can it hang together Universal Genève
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and Galée? Well, I just wonder, like, what's the cross-sales conversation there,
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right? Like, yeah, no, I'm serious. Like, if somebody walks into
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a Breitling boutique, excluding someone who comes in, is like, can I look at
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Like, okay. Yeah. They just want like a, they're just, they want a cool,
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nice luxury dive watch. And then someone's like, well, take a look at this
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Galet. And I'll explain, I'll explain why that's weird. Sure. There's lots of stores
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that have Rolex and Tudor, but there are no Rolex boutiques
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with Tudors in them. Right. Right. Yeah. Cause that'd be weird, right?
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Yes. Yeah. You know, it's like, oh, like, oh, but you know, but sir,
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the Submariner is the peak of diving watches. That's why they have CPO
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instead. That's how you, that's how you divert a Rolex buyer.
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To another watch. Sure. But I'm not, I'm not making that point. I'm just— toward
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Tudor. Yeah. But my point is like, it would be a weird conversation
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to have. Right. So I wonder,
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and they're sort of like positioning Galet with, you know,
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Galet is to Breitling as Tudor is
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to Rolex. Right. Because they're doing that on their website. Breitling is
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an ingredient brand in Galet and there's a heavy overlap on chronographs.
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Yeah, exactly. So I just wonder what that's gonna look like
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and what that cross-sell would be, how it doesn't cannibalize an
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entry-level Breitling even though the prices are significantly different.
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I think like an entry-level B01 chrono from them is like pushing $8,000 or $9,000
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now. Yeah, US. But anyway, just strategically, that's interesting. Goes back to the Tudor
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thing of like we talked about what the fundamental paradox with Tudor, as successful
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as it's been, is it lives in the shadow of Rolex. And as they
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try to grow and popularize the brand, will a brand conscious person
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be able to get over the fact that it's not a Rolex? And to
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your point, Tudor and Rolex have been very deliberate about keeping the brands separate.
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Yes, they're in some of the same multi-brand boutiques, but you never have a Tudor
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sold out of a Rolex-dedicated boutique. Now, CPO plays the role
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of the place you point someone who can't get their hands on a Rolex.
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Is Breitling setting up Galet to fail from
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a brand positioning standpoint by tying it so clearly to Breitling
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as like a lesser baby Breitling? Will Breitling— will Galet
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therefore ever be able to get out of the shadow and graduate beyond that when
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its identity is so intertwined now with Breitling? Well,
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hearing you say that, I— a counterpoint comes into my mind,
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which is the Ralph Lauren boutique on 72nd Street
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in New York City. Can you get Polo Sport there? Well, you can get all
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of the Ralph Lauren brands from Polo all the way up to Purple Label.
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Double RL? Yeah. And they, they organize it.
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But now the difference there, though, is that you can't get chaps there, though.
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But you— but like, like literal chaps or the brand? No, the brand Chaps.
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Like, to me it's like, you look— you're looking— you're looking for chaps,
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man? Galay is to Breitling as Chaps is to
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Polo Ralph Lauren. Okay, I just keep talking about chaps.
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I know it's funny, but like that— I, I hear what you're saying, but they
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don't put— they don't put Chaps in, in that store in 72nd
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Street. No, no, but, but Polo Ralph Lauren is probably the entry-level brand there.
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It is. But my point about that though is that Polo,
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Ralph Lauren, Double RL, Black Label,
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Purple Label, all of these have different aesthetic and creative angles
16:07.509 --> 16:11.661
to them, right? Like Purple Label has always been about like trying to ape
16:12.302 --> 16:15.604
the sort of sartorial Italian vibe. Sure. You know,
16:16.406 --> 16:19.499
and have the construction that, that justifies the price point.
16:20.012 --> 16:22.657
You know, Double RL is like very Americana,
16:23.202 --> 16:27.050
vintage-driven, you know, etc. and so forth. So each of those brands are less
16:27.550 --> 16:30.624
of a cross-sell and more of a vibe. And sure, they're at different price points.
16:31.073 --> 16:33.044
But if you were to go in there and say to a stylist, like,
16:33.060 --> 16:36.281
here are the things that I'm looking for, you know, they would drop— you could
16:36.781 --> 16:39.470
walk out with a pretty cool— yeah, you could walk out with, with like some
16:39.970 --> 16:43.012
work shirts from RRL, some sartorial stuff for a suit, like whatever. Or if you
16:43.512 --> 16:47.354
just want a polo shirt or some chaps. But, but my point is, you know,
16:47.403 --> 16:50.896
you really don't remember the brand Chaps? I don't, but I, but I'm
16:50.944 --> 16:54.197
just like driven by my image of you wandering around in chaps in a center.
16:54.406 --> 16:57.867
No, so Chaps, like, you know, like British, like Chaps
16:58.300 --> 17:01.905
is, is like the, the cheaper version of Polo Ralph Lauren.
17:02.562 --> 17:05.929
It's Chaps by Ralph Lauren. It's a sub-brand that's like sportier,
17:06.153 --> 17:09.776
less formal, and cheaper. It would be sold at like TJ Maxx
17:10.276 --> 17:13.431
or Macy's versus— sure, that's my point. I think, I think in the hierarchy
17:13.463 --> 17:17.278
of brands, Galay would be a higher ranking brand relative
17:17.310 --> 17:20.564
to the— anyway, without getting too deep into this metaphor, Chaps by Breitling.
17:21.302 --> 17:24.572
Yeah, exactly. Pinbuckle by Breitling.
17:25.069 --> 17:28.836
Look, I— what was it? What was it like the, the 19— like
17:28.852 --> 17:32.667
early aughts thing? It's like the 2-word names. It's like Garlic and Pinbuckle
17:32.779 --> 17:36.019
by Breitling or something. Yeah. The cafe from Breitling. Yeah, you have to have an
17:36.067 --> 17:39.548
ampersand or a plus sign. Oh my God. Okay. Anyway, back, back on
17:39.596 --> 17:43.093
track. My point is it would be interesting
17:44.007 --> 17:47.568
if they pivot the way that they look at clients. Like if you come into
17:47.601 --> 17:50.761
a Breitling boutique, let's imagine there's a Breitling boutique like in New York, that big
17:51.261 --> 17:54.996
one on 57th Street, and that becomes a House of Breitling kind of store name.
17:55.060 --> 17:58.765
They'd have to redesign every floor. Forget about that for a second. But let's assume
17:59.265 --> 18:01.957
that they use that real estate that they have to do that. Okay. That's kind
18:02.457 --> 18:05.724
of interesting to me because then it's kind of like the Grand Seiko boutique
18:05.804 --> 18:08.754
in the sense that like, sure, there's the, you know,
18:09.106 --> 18:12.184
there's a handful of Creedors available in like the very special room.
18:12.793 --> 18:16.336
There's the main Grand Seiko line. And I don't think they sell it anymore.
18:16.384 --> 18:19.045
But back in the day, they used to sell Seiko or Prospex or things like
18:19.545 --> 18:23.053
that there too. And there— and those things weren't necessarily in opposition to each other
18:23.373 --> 18:26.162
and they weren't in opposition to the buyer either. Like, sure, there were guys that
18:26.662 --> 18:28.759
came in and wanted a Cocktail Time and that was it. But there were also
18:29.259 --> 18:31.901
guys that came in that wanted a Cocktail Time and an Ichi-2, and they were
18:31.933 --> 18:35.800
able to speak to both of them Because each of them met a different—
18:36.300 --> 18:38.700
I'm not saying that was then, this is now. And there's a reason why Seiko
18:39.200 --> 18:42.660
backed off that strategy and now has dedicated Grand Seiko boutiques. I'm with you.
18:43.160 --> 18:45.040
I'm just trying to— I'm just trying to work it out. Yeah, I get you.
18:45.540 --> 18:48.430
I think the Ralph Lauren— why isn't it just Ralph Lauren?
18:48.620 --> 18:52.160
But people say Ralph Lauren. It's even if it is his name, Ralph Lifshitz.
18:52.680 --> 18:55.480
Like, I think that's his actual name, to be honest with you. Like, my major
18:55.980 --> 18:59.660
connection to the Bronx, my major connection to that brand was when—
19:00.160 --> 19:03.180
was when what's-her-face Jennifer Aniston's character worked there on Friends. Oh, interesting. Remember that whole
19:03.680 --> 19:06.590
storyline? Sure. Yeah. And there— yeah, anyway, whatever.
19:07.055 --> 19:11.303
But Ralph Lauren or Ralph Lauren or Ralph Lifshitz, whatever. Rachel. That's Rachel.
19:11.528 --> 19:15.311
Yeah. So I think that's a— that's an interesting one because you're right, it works,
19:15.535 --> 19:19.286
works kind of well there. I think this is a tightrope that
19:19.318 --> 19:22.701
brands have tried to walk and it won't— it won't be easy to do if
19:22.749 --> 19:25.378
they— Yeah. But you know what, though? As I'm talking about this, I think the
19:25.410 --> 19:28.904
part that's actually like cool is I'm actually like excited and curious
19:28.953 --> 19:33.794
about this because let's be honest, a lot of brands that enter in the sub-$5,000
19:33.810 --> 19:36.887
US range are, with a few extremely notable exceptions,
19:37.272 --> 19:40.674
are usually highly derivative. Yes. And to his credit— or,
19:40.786 --> 19:44.733
or they try way too hard, you know? And this offers like
19:45.233 --> 19:49.674
this really interesting path of something that could be aesthetically appealing,
19:50.091 --> 19:53.541
potentially technically interesting, have some heritage.
19:53.861 --> 19:57.808
Maybe they're trying to give themselves permission to bust out of like what the
19:57.872 --> 20:01.530
historical tropes are. Like, depending on how much of a
20:01.578 --> 20:04.757
risk they're willing to take, this could be really cool.
20:05.576 --> 20:08.580
I'm really curious. And to his credit, look, we've talked all the time on this
20:08.644 --> 20:12.563
podcast that the watch— the segment of the watch market that's
20:12.579 --> 20:16.177
booming is in the $20,000 and up segment. Generally, volumes of
20:16.677 --> 20:20.144
watches out coming out of Switzerland are going down, but the industry is growing on
20:20.644 --> 20:23.613
the back of price increases and higher-priced watches.
20:24.208 --> 20:27.886
And so I do think George Kern is, is doing something
20:28.303 --> 20:31.854
that is very long-term in its thinking, which is saying, I'm not
20:32.354 --> 20:35.645
just going to launch UG as a complementary brand to Breitling. I'm going to
20:35.710 --> 20:38.152
think about how I'm building a stable. I'm going to build a stable, and I'm
20:38.652 --> 20:41.541
going to build something at a price point which is the toughest price point in
20:41.654 --> 20:45.397
watches, where you're right, things are very derivative. It's extremely
20:45.494 --> 20:49.349
crowded. And so just by nature of how crowded
20:49.430 --> 20:52.836
it is, it's hard to— it's hard to break in and do well. But then
20:53.336 --> 20:56.641
it's a segment of, of the watch industry that is really struggling.
20:57.074 --> 21:01.065
So I do think he deserves credit for some long-term thinking here, and how they
21:01.565 --> 21:05.025
do it and how they— how it plays out will be fascinating because Breitling is
21:05.525 --> 21:08.968
so defined by Breitling. And I'm also gonna question my own assumptions on
21:09.016 --> 21:12.735
this one before we move on. I was very skeptical of Universal
21:12.767 --> 21:16.038
Genève. I am much less skeptical about
21:16.150 --> 21:18.811
UG now that I've seen what they did. I really want to look— I'm gonna
21:19.311 --> 21:21.937
see if I can try to get an appointment to see some of those UG
21:22.161 --> 21:25.527
watches, or just get to sneak in there to see some. Yeah, I would like
21:26.027 --> 21:28.480
to see that too. And it's less about like, oh, I think they should join
21:28.980 --> 21:30.740
our roster. I think it's more like— I want to see what they're doing.
21:30.760 --> 21:33.920
Me too. So if anyone from UG hears this,
21:34.320 --> 21:38.220
we'd like to see you. I requested press media credentials.
21:38.720 --> 21:41.820
So, and you can select which brands you want to hear from or have an
21:42.320 --> 21:44.680
appointment with. You're going to get like one of those little hats with the little
21:45.180 --> 21:48.680
press tab. Yeah, exactly. You know, I went to high school with a kid in
21:49.180 --> 21:51.720
high school and he wore one of those hats with a little press tab.
21:52.220 --> 21:55.780
And he was like, uh, at age 17, he was, he would
21:56.280 --> 21:57.720
have like a police scanner and follow fire trucks around Brooklyn.
21:59.704 --> 22:02.913
Really? And when we were like, like juniors in high school,
22:03.362 --> 22:07.421
he had a photo of like a fire scene like on the front page,
22:07.469 --> 22:11.111
like front cover of the Daily News. No way. Yeah, Mark Herman.
22:11.609 --> 22:14.737
He was like— and he, he did the whole shtick where he like
22:15.237 --> 22:18.556
dressed up like the 1950s press guy with the hat with the card in
22:18.668 --> 22:21.925
it and all. It was amazing. Get that man a Universal Genève.
22:21.973 --> 22:25.599
Really cool, really cool dude. And yeah, that, that was
22:25.663 --> 22:28.439
wild. But in any event, I'm really curious to see those watches.
22:29.176 --> 22:32.220
And that's my method of subterfuge. Like all the brands we
22:32.720 --> 22:35.873
can't get a meeting with on commercial terms, I'm trying to sneak in through the
22:36.642 --> 22:39.735
media door. I'm just, as someone who works in this business,
22:39.847 --> 22:43.500
I'm just real curious. Yeah. So speaking of curious,
22:44.237 --> 22:47.906
the focus of today's episode is actually
22:47.922 --> 22:51.190
a listener question. And we actually got a few different kinds
22:51.286 --> 22:54.555
of versions of this question, which I found really interesting. It came
22:54.603 --> 22:59.203
up enough in enough different ways that I think it's actually worth worth
22:59.380 --> 23:02.577
really the episode, which is this, this question, which is,
23:03.091 --> 23:07.397
how has becoming part of the watch industry changed your collecting?
23:08.071 --> 23:11.300
And if we have time, there's a couple riffs on that, questions related to it,
23:11.349 --> 23:14.690
which I think are interesting. But, you know, normally we don't talk about our
23:14.738 --> 23:18.658
collections or our collecting, but look, this came up enough that there's
23:19.158 --> 23:22.498
some signal, I think, from the, the, the question. And more importantly,
23:22.948 --> 23:26.208
it's a question about how has the business of watches the thing
23:26.305 --> 23:29.549
we talk about this on this podcast, how does that intersect with and how
23:29.661 --> 23:33.306
has it impacted us as collectors? And I'll
23:33.806 --> 23:37.626
start here with the big one, which is probably
23:38.126 --> 23:42.090
not what people are expecting, but building this business
23:42.668 --> 23:46.538
required a lot of capital. And some of the best advice that
23:46.619 --> 23:50.151
we got was from Mike DeMartini
23:50.232 --> 23:53.827
of Everest Brands and of Monta, which is The
23:53.843 --> 23:57.129
business will probably take more money than you have, but less than you
23:57.629 --> 24:01.008
think you need. And do everything you can not to give
24:01.281 --> 24:05.080
any piece of your business as an equity to anyone else.
24:05.208 --> 24:08.751
Don't take outside money. Do what you can to figure it out. And so one
24:09.251 --> 24:11.780
of the ways we figured it out was through,
24:12.694 --> 24:15.884
I know you did, I did too, selling off most of our watch
24:16.384 --> 24:19.539
collections at the time. So the biggest
24:19.635 --> 24:22.990
way going into this industry has impacted,
24:23.103 --> 24:27.101
or impacted my collection and my collecting, was it just— it started by
24:27.358 --> 24:31.229
blowing a big, a big hole in my,
24:31.534 --> 24:34.280
my collection. Oh, I just had this conversation. Nothing left.
24:34.729 --> 24:38.343
2 watches survived the, the business, which was my
24:38.843 --> 24:42.662
Facebook Tudor Black Bay— can't give that up— and this
24:42.695 --> 24:45.665
should tell you something, an IWC 3706,
24:45.682 --> 24:49.258
so the original Pilot its chronograph. I kept,
24:49.338 --> 24:52.895
I kept my kids' birth watches. I kept that Black Bay just as you
24:53.395 --> 24:57.142
did. And I kept the C3, the IWC collab that we did.
24:57.446 --> 25:00.923
Yeah, I do have that. There are a couple that sort of survived through the
25:01.131 --> 25:04.640
process, I guess. Including your Seikos. We all kept our Seikos. No, I got rid
25:05.140 --> 25:06.964
of a lot of my Seikos. You got to figure out how to make it
25:07.464 --> 25:10.617
work sometimes. I guess it's interesting. I thought you were going to go somewhere else
25:10.729 --> 25:14.302
with that, which is, I mean, I did that too. So yeah, I thought
25:14.334 --> 25:17.959
you were going to go to we don't like— because we now know what's
25:18.459 --> 25:22.113
involved, I am very careful, even in a context of like professional
25:22.613 --> 25:26.060
courtesy, not to expect anybody to do me any favors when I buy a watch,
25:26.461 --> 25:28.803
which I think is interesting. Oh, that's it. That never even occurred to me.
25:28.851 --> 25:32.364
Yeah. Well, so look, anyone who's ever bought a watch from us knows
25:32.717 --> 25:36.439
that we are— that we don't discount. And the reason why we don't discount
25:36.503 --> 25:39.166
fundamentally is because we believe in the brands that we retail.
25:39.439 --> 25:42.037
And if we want to see secondary values stay high,
25:42.502 --> 25:45.626
and we also want to represent brands and maintain their integrity, we have to hold
25:46.126 --> 25:48.911
that line. And I get why people don't like that, because everybody wants to pay
25:48.975 --> 25:52.435
the least they can to get the most value. Sure. I buy cars— the amount
25:52.935 --> 25:54.983
of money we're talking about here isn't trivial. So it's not, it's not like I
25:55.483 --> 25:58.123
have a problem with that. I completely understand why people do that. We just have
25:58.524 --> 26:02.433
a way that we do business because of how deeply we believe in what
26:02.933 --> 26:06.583
we do. And I've had people say to me sometimes when they see me wearing,
26:06.855 --> 26:09.515
you know, a watch, be like, oh, I bet you got a deal on that.
26:09.563 --> 26:12.544
Yeah. And the thing about that is like, I don't ask for that, you know,
26:12.929 --> 26:15.110
it isn't to say that like there isn't a brand that we've worked with or
26:15.610 --> 26:17.388
somebody is going to be like, hey, I'll help. Like, if you want this,
26:17.404 --> 26:20.740
I'm going to proactively make you an offer as an industry courtesy. No, but you
26:20.804 --> 26:24.205
and I famously go watch shopping almost every day. And we pay retail.
26:24.301 --> 26:27.701
We pay retail. You and I went, we did some watch shopping. I bought a
26:28.201 --> 26:31.230
watch the other week. I bought a Tudor. You even paid a 3% credit card
26:31.730 --> 26:34.438
fee. And that's the thing. So I paid full price for the watch I bought
26:34.938 --> 26:37.310
from an authorized dealer, dealer we're friendly with and has,
26:37.630 --> 26:41.622
has helped us in a lot of ways. And when
26:41.655 --> 26:44.731
I'm buying the watch, like, you can pay by wire, or if you want to
26:44.779 --> 26:48.513
pay by credit card, there's a 3% credit card fee. And I was
26:48.609 --> 26:52.631
almost— because we don't charge a 3% credit card fee— I was almost like,
26:53.112 --> 26:56.109
you're really gonna make me do that? But then I remembered,
26:56.141 --> 26:59.346
like, look, this dealer, just like us,
26:59.362 --> 27:02.663
has been through a lot of painful economics in Alaska, and this is a relatively
27:03.163 --> 27:05.515
new policy. You don't have to buy from them, so it's your choice. It's my
27:06.015 --> 27:09.923
choice. But I know for a fact on a number of the lines
27:10.423 --> 27:14.058
that they carry, their margins have been squeezed because of tariffs.
27:14.122 --> 27:17.311
Now, of course, prices have increased too. But part of the reason we've
27:17.811 --> 27:21.382
talked about this, the, the part of the way the brands have
27:21.398 --> 27:24.812
figured out how they're going to work within tariffs has
27:24.844 --> 27:27.953
been in a lot of cases to squeeze dealers on their margins. Yep.
27:28.194 --> 27:31.575
So the money's got to come from somewhere. They have mouths to feed, they have
27:32.075 --> 27:36.430
a store, they have inventory they're carrying, all that sort of stuff. So not
27:36.930 --> 27:40.890
only did I pay retail, I paid above retail for
27:41.390 --> 27:44.810
a tutor. So I'm sure I'll be lambasted for that. I guess my point here
27:45.310 --> 27:48.710
though, but I stopped myself and I was like, you know what? I get why
27:49.210 --> 27:52.090
they're doing that and I get where they come from. It's given me more empathy
27:52.590 --> 27:55.570
and understanding. And I don't want this to be misinterpreted as virtue signaling because I
27:56.070 --> 27:58.610
don't mean it that way. It's just there are other things in life where I
27:59.110 --> 28:01.850
ask, I'm not paying retail for a car. There you go. But I guess my
28:02.350 --> 28:05.130
point is because you and I have a deeper level of empathy with that particular
28:05.630 --> 28:08.864
component, we're much more, we're much less We have much lower expectations when
28:09.364 --> 28:11.642
it comes to that sort of thing. Ironically, I think what we're saying is it's
28:12.142 --> 28:15.480
made us more willing to pay full retail on watches.
28:15.833 --> 28:19.463
Yes. Now pivoting over though to the, I think
28:19.527 --> 28:22.915
probably the more interesting side of it, you and I exist
28:23.415 --> 28:27.139
in a really unusual situation, which is because we chose
28:27.639 --> 28:31.330
to liquidate our collections along with so many other assets to fund this business,
28:32.133 --> 28:35.311
we found ourselves in an unusual position when we came, you know,
28:35.327 --> 28:38.567
when we came up for air. Yeah. Which is we
28:39.067 --> 28:42.223
now, we know a lot about watches. Well, can I ask you one question on
28:42.723 --> 28:45.414
the— let me just finish the thought though of collections though. Yeah, but hang on.
28:46.232 --> 28:49.391
We know a lot about watches, but we actually didn't have any, which is like
28:49.891 --> 28:52.501
an unusual situation. Before you go there though. Yeah. Before you go there,
28:53.464 --> 28:56.590
I can, I can answer this one easily. Sure. Is there anything— look,
28:57.617 --> 29:01.161
what a privileged position where we had watches we
29:01.661 --> 29:05.072
could sell. To help fund our business. Right. A lot of people have to make
29:05.489 --> 29:09.112
way too— to be clear, it was, it was to help fund.
29:09.240 --> 29:12.479
It did not fund. To help fund our business. And we
29:12.979 --> 29:15.108
did not— it was a lever we could pull. It was one lever we could
29:15.188 --> 29:18.378
pull. And a lot of people don't have that lever. Right. That's a,
29:18.539 --> 29:21.136
that's a, that's a blessing to have.
29:21.200 --> 29:24.486
Absolutely. I know the answer to this question for me before we go to
29:24.986 --> 29:28.528
coming up for air, because we did come up for air. Is Is there anything
29:29.218 --> 29:32.830
you sold that you really regret or that really just
29:32.991 --> 29:36.250
pains you? Oh, absolutely. I often can just sell a watch
29:36.442 --> 29:39.107
and move on and just get on with life. Oh, I can tell you the
29:39.607 --> 29:42.704
3 watches that I, that I regret losing. Oh, there's 3? There's 3 that I,
29:42.848 --> 29:45.144
I, I just, I, I miss all the time.
29:45.914 --> 29:48.595
And it is my white gold gray dial LM101.
29:49.125 --> 29:52.464
Yeah. I miss that watch all the time. Killer. It is
29:52.721 --> 29:56.141
our Urwerk collaboration. Yep, that watch meant so
29:56.270 --> 29:59.304
much to me on so many levels, and I loved it.
29:59.481 --> 30:03.110
Yeah, I still love it. I just don't have it. Yeah, and bizarrely,
30:03.190 --> 30:06.514
this may surprise you, but my A. Lange Söhne Odysseus.
30:07.429 --> 30:11.234
Really? Yeah, and, and I love— that was the day,
30:11.443 --> 30:14.606
and I, you know, I'm lucky to have A. Lange in my collection now.
30:15.120 --> 30:18.829
Yeah, as of relatively recently, but it's
30:19.329 --> 30:22.619
not an Odysseus. It's a beautiful watch. It's still a killer watch. Great watch.
30:22.844 --> 30:25.975
But, but that Odysseus— well, the Odysseus just
30:26.475 --> 30:30.536
felt like the, the Lange for me. Sure. And to its, to its credit,
30:30.552 --> 30:34.117
yes, it's in a derivative category, but it's not a derivative watch.
30:34.309 --> 30:38.436
Oh no, that watch was great. But I miss those watches profoundly.
30:38.500 --> 30:41.134
Now, do I miss them more than having Collective? No.
30:42.017 --> 30:45.791
But if I could, like, you know, just snap my fingers
30:46.291 --> 30:49.244
and get 3 pieces back— what if you could only have one of those 3
30:49.744 --> 30:52.644
back? The Your work. Yeah, same for me. I sold— I had to sell my
30:53.144 --> 30:56.332
Urwerk before as well. But, you know, like, I think I sold that for
30:57.102 --> 31:00.021
$54,000. That's a lot of capital.
31:00.165 --> 31:03.212
I did the same. And that was— that paid my salary for
31:03.712 --> 31:07.029
a long time. It kills me. Of every watch I sold,
31:07.462 --> 31:11.038
that's the one that really hurts on so many
31:11.054 --> 31:14.197
levels. In many ways, it's the collaboration we did that I'm the most
31:14.697 --> 31:18.670
proud of for many reasons. It's the nicest watch I've ever owned just
31:19.170 --> 31:21.443
from terms of like its monetary value. Yeah, but you also had like a right
31:21.491 --> 31:24.842
to have it in like a really like, you know, because sometimes with really expensive
31:24.858 --> 31:27.439
watches, at least for me, I can be like, do I feel comfortable wearing this?
31:27.519 --> 31:31.478
No, that I did. It wouldn't exist without us. But that one, that one really,
31:32.296 --> 31:35.630
really hurts. But when you zoom back out, here's the fun
31:35.742 --> 31:39.269
opportunity of it. We can now— the slate was wiped
31:39.285 --> 31:42.379
clean. Yeah. And if you think about it, like, I know collectors do this all
31:42.395 --> 31:45.665
the time, like as a thought experiment. What if I could reset my collection?
31:45.713 --> 31:48.872
Well, we did the table over. Yeah. And what's really interesting about the choices
31:48.904 --> 31:51.570
that like I've been making and I'm seeing you even make some of these too,
31:51.810 --> 31:54.958
is like we are at least now I
31:55.006 --> 31:58.153
feel like our collecting falls into— actually, I won't characterize yours.
31:58.297 --> 32:01.557
For mine, my collecting now falls into 2 buckets.
32:02.376 --> 32:05.731
One is 100% independent watch focused.
32:06.245 --> 32:09.505
Like what are the indies that I want, believe in, want to support?
32:09.858 --> 32:13.342
And like really like, you know, setting my sights and like picking those off,
32:13.455 --> 32:16.425
right? Yep. And that's why I have a Holthin Ricks in my collection now.
32:16.521 --> 32:18.817
Obviously, it's why I have Ming. It's why I have a Singer Dual Track.
32:18.945 --> 32:23.553
Oh, I love that watch. Yeah, you know, these are indies that like are watches
32:23.585 --> 32:26.941
that I have seen, immediately fell in love with, and just
32:27.441 --> 32:30.456
like went for. The other side of it is like I am being way more
32:30.633 --> 32:34.647
honest with myself now about what it is that I like and
32:34.727 --> 32:38.163
what I want to collect. And now that's why you're seeing— and that's a function
32:38.259 --> 32:41.003
of having reset things. Yes, that just to, you know,
32:41.163 --> 32:44.240
growing and evolving and maturing. Well, you know that I've gone
32:44.352 --> 32:48.101
through more watches than any of us can imagine. Your old saying
32:48.198 --> 32:51.579
about this is you buzz through all through butter like a chainsaw through butter.
32:51.627 --> 32:55.248
There you go. But, but, but I think as a result, I have
32:55.264 --> 32:59.014
gotten to a point where there are certain things that I know that
32:59.514 --> 33:02.619
I really like, certain eras of certain watchmakers I know I really like. You know
33:02.635 --> 33:06.449
I love neo-vintage Vacheron. Yeah, I love neo-vintage Breguet. I've even gotten you
33:06.545 --> 33:09.451
hooked on that. And these are the kinds of things where I'm like,
33:09.837 --> 33:13.178
that's what I'm looking for. And it's entirely driven now
33:14.414 --> 33:17.225
by what I like. And I think the measure for me is that the tenure
33:17.725 --> 33:21.465
of those watches in my collection is way longer. So you're— were you just taking
33:21.562 --> 33:24.614
flyers on watches before to check them out, or you didn't
33:24.630 --> 33:28.244
know what you liked, or were you somehow not honest with yourself
33:28.744 --> 33:31.295
in a way that you are now? Like, I'm trying to understand. All of the
33:31.795 --> 33:34.604
above. All of the above. I mean, like, how much time do you have?
33:34.668 --> 33:38.276
Yeah, look, Look, I, everyone collects in different ways and we set
33:38.776 --> 33:42.139
up these arbitrary rules for ourselves, right? Like if you sell a watch, you're a
33:42.187 --> 33:45.377
flipper. No, no, that's not what that is.
33:46.034 --> 33:49.159
You know, if you over-collect, you're wasteful. If you under-collect, you, you know, you're a
33:49.659 --> 33:53.070
tire kicker. Like there's all these different things that people
33:53.278 --> 33:56.997
assign to collecting, which is
33:57.013 --> 34:00.315
probably more a projection of, of the, of the person making that comment than it
34:00.815 --> 34:03.985
is an actual collector. Because the thing is, the collectors that I admire, they all
34:04.485 --> 34:07.824
have different behaviors in the way that they collect. But they all follow
34:07.841 --> 34:11.215
their heart. They do. And, and I think I'll give an example.
34:11.311 --> 34:14.300
You remember, like, when we were in Geneva and I bought the Breguet 3700BA,
34:14.911 --> 34:18.751
the Worldtimer, from the Davidoffs? That, that was not a monumentally
34:18.847 --> 34:22.141
expensive watch, but it wasn't cheap. No. And I made that decision relatively
34:22.641 --> 34:25.098
quickly inside the Davidoff store. I mean, how could you not with that watch?
34:25.210 --> 34:28.408
Sure. But my point, though, is, is that a watch that I would have bought
34:28.908 --> 34:31.780
5 to 7 years ago? Absolutely not. Not? Because I wouldn't have the balls to
34:32.280 --> 34:35.537
do it. So you went from telling me that you just sort of willy-nilly
34:35.569 --> 34:38.651
bought anything, and now you're more focused. No, I said all
34:38.716 --> 34:42.167
of the above, because different watches fell into different categories. And for me,
34:42.296 --> 34:45.812
I would have been— I would have been so focused 10 years ago on
34:46.326 --> 34:49.793
what's the residual value of this watch that I wouldn't have
34:50.293 --> 34:52.346
been able to pull the trigger on it, even though my heart would have told
34:52.846 --> 34:56.665
me aesthetically I love it. When I was in there, my mathematics
34:57.165 --> 35:01.305
were, can I afford this watch that I love? Yes, I'll take
35:01.805 --> 35:02.777
it? Got it. Not if I get home and I don't like it, how do
35:03.277 --> 35:06.352
I get out of it? And do you, so you think being in the industry
35:06.368 --> 35:09.494
has changed that mindset? Yes. And the reason why is that when
35:09.574 --> 35:12.459
I look at a lot of the senior people who have been in this business
35:12.959 --> 35:16.546
for a long time who collect, they got some weird stuff.
35:17.043 --> 35:20.297
They have weird stuff. They're deeply passionate about it, but it always is driven
35:20.393 --> 35:23.487
by what they like. Yeah. Not what the value is. Yes. You know, and I
35:23.615 --> 35:27.109
think that's, that, that is a, a maturity that I had aspired
35:27.609 --> 35:31.267
to. And I hadn't gotten there. And I'm, you know, I'm slowly getting
35:31.379 --> 35:34.349
there now. And as a result, my collection is way more interesting. Like, I opened
35:34.849 --> 35:38.025
my watch box today to pick something out. And like, the way my watch
35:38.057 --> 35:41.589
box looks today is so different than it looked 10 years ago.
35:42.392 --> 35:46.325
10 years ago was way more hypey. Hmm. You know, this year when
35:46.825 --> 35:49.102
I open my box, there's not— the only thing in there that's like remotely hypey
35:49.150 --> 35:51.991
at this point are like my kids' birth watches, which are GMT-Masters,
35:53.051 --> 35:56.101
you know? And I don't even know if my kids were to be born today,
35:56.117 --> 35:59.645
if those were the— if that's the watch I would have picked. Picked. So my
35:59.725 --> 36:03.186
point is, I find it really interesting. Why do you think you lost interest in
36:03.234 --> 36:07.305
the hypey stuff? Because I think the hypey stuff can sometimes be not very interesting.
36:08.298 --> 36:11.551
Like, I'll give you an example. We had a, we had a very, very,
36:11.583 --> 36:15.157
very famous sporty Patek come into the office on a trade
36:15.189 --> 36:18.843
this week. We did. This is a watch that has appreciated dramatically
36:18.939 --> 36:22.096
for the, the client who traded it. Aquanaut, is it
36:22.256 --> 36:25.768
not? Okay, there you So, but the point is, one of
36:26.268 --> 36:28.719
the folks in our office had never actually seen an Aquanaut. Yeah. And we handed
36:29.219 --> 36:31.992
it to them and the response was like, fine, I don't get it. It's fine.
36:33.130 --> 36:36.723
And I think it's cool to sort of see that because if you
36:36.900 --> 36:40.188
are completely— this person's like newer to watches, you know,
36:40.204 --> 36:43.509
switched industries to work here. Yeah. If they can look at
36:44.009 --> 36:46.877
it and be like, yeah, it seems like, well, it was the old,
36:46.941 --> 36:50.711
like the Pepsi challenge, right? Yeah. You know, like they didn't understand
36:51.211 --> 36:55.091
or know what the— what Patek Philippe really is, or what the Aquanaut is,
36:55.188 --> 36:58.317
or just evaluating it as a watch compared to all the other watches they see
36:58.817 --> 37:01.622
on a daily basis, which I would say are probably far more interesting. I used
37:02.122 --> 37:05.297
to own a 5167A. It's a great watch. I loved owning it. Like, it's— I'm
37:05.313 --> 37:09.003
not trying to throw shade on it. My point is, when removed
37:09.503 --> 37:12.983
from all of the collector context, it's not quite as interesting as
37:13.079 --> 37:16.128
other watches at a competitive price point, in my opinion. Yeah.
37:16.689 --> 37:19.996
And I think— or I think another way of saying it is like when you
37:20.496 --> 37:23.499
remove the hype from the picture and evaluate the watch on its merits, on its
37:23.612 --> 37:27.130
merits, it changes things 100%. So I think that's
37:27.630 --> 37:32.208
really interesting because if you do that and you go through the mental like gymnastics
37:32.708 --> 37:35.871
of it, it's like within the Patek line there are way more available,
37:36.208 --> 37:40.065
way more accessible, awesome Patek Philippes than what is quote-unquote
37:40.145 --> 37:43.535
desirable. But so often as a community we just
37:44.035 --> 37:47.545
don't approach it that way because because in fairness, on one hand, the cost is
37:48.045 --> 37:51.279
so high from an absolute standpoint that there is a financial component
37:51.311 --> 37:54.692
to that. You can't remove that because it's just a lot of money. And then
37:55.192 --> 37:58.457
there's the other side of it too, which is it's very difficult to look
37:58.505 --> 38:02.495
at something objectively when you exist in a community that is utterly subjective.
38:03.265 --> 38:05.892
So when we collect now,
38:06.373 --> 38:09.658
or at least when I collect now, and I try to look at something that
38:10.158 --> 38:14.098
I like, I really am just looking it on the merits
38:14.226 --> 38:18.235
and trying to decide if that's something I want to own, far— way
38:18.539 --> 38:21.602
less considering what it will say about me to
38:22.102 --> 38:25.370
somebody else, and way less considering what, you know,
38:25.851 --> 38:29.667
what its residual value or whatnot will be. I recognize
38:29.860 --> 38:33.772
one could say, okay, that sounds like a privileged position, but I think
38:33.868 --> 38:36.979
I would argue that that's true whether you're buying a $100,
38:37.155 --> 38:40.651
$500, $10,000, $100,000 watch depending on
38:41.151 --> 38:44.708
on what your budgets are. You know, like you are madly in love with that
38:45.208 --> 38:48.317
Citizen GMT you bought for $500. It's a cool watch.
38:48.445 --> 38:51.332
There you go. And like you bought that, did you buy that and even give
38:51.832 --> 38:54.861
a second thought to if you'd see that $500 again? No, I bought it because
38:54.877 --> 38:57.523
I really liked that watch. But if you went to the farmer's market, would you
38:58.023 --> 39:01.549
pause before spending $500? Sure. Right. So my point is like absolute
39:02.049 --> 39:05.366
sums vary dramatically based on context. Sure. Yeah.
39:05.446 --> 39:08.878
And if your drive, and if you're buying something because you fundamentally
39:09.071 --> 39:13.094
like it, which is a thing that I think watch collectors often say is
39:13.142 --> 39:16.989
what they do, but we struggle with the reality of that because of the absolute
39:17.489 --> 39:21.205
cost and because of community pressure. And I say this speaking myself,
39:22.038 --> 39:25.645
you know, if you remove that, it changes your collecting. Yeah. I think one
39:26.145 --> 39:29.219
of the interesting things I'm just thinking about for myself here
39:29.412 --> 39:32.473
when you say this is, man, these Facebook comments are going to
39:32.973 --> 39:36.240
be brutal. No, when, when we were purely enthusiasts and
39:36.320 --> 39:40.058
purely part of the watch community, the collector community,
39:40.732 --> 39:45.145
what we're mostly surrounded by and influenced
39:45.645 --> 39:48.836
by and just exposed to is what we see
39:49.336 --> 39:53.168
in watch media and then really the collector community itself, the things people
39:53.668 --> 39:57.052
are talking about in, in chats and in groups and
39:57.100 --> 40:00.165
in meetups. And, and this is no dig, it's just
40:00.665 --> 40:04.144
a reality. Like, people are social creatures, we take cues from each other, and that
40:04.160 --> 40:07.769
definitely puts wind in the sail, that creates
40:08.269 --> 40:10.864
a lot of the hype. You know, something gets shared in a group, that's currency
40:10.896 --> 40:13.734
in a group, the group likes it, it turns you on to it. You may
40:14.007 --> 40:17.423
genuinely love it, but you're being influenced by the group. And I don't mean that
40:17.695 --> 40:20.838
in a necessarily bad thing. We're just creatures of our environment.
40:21.384 --> 40:24.655
Our job now has forced us to go out into the wilds of watchmaking.
40:25.168 --> 40:28.889
Like, we're— we still love collecting, we still go to watch collecting events, we're still
40:28.937 --> 40:32.657
in groups. All of that stuff is true, but we're also forced
40:32.705 --> 40:36.019
by virtue of our own survival in this industry to
40:36.115 --> 40:39.673
go out and find the next thing, to meet with the new watchmaker, to look
40:40.173 --> 40:43.618
around the other corner, to try more watches, to have an open point
40:44.118 --> 40:47.511
of view, because it's necessary to our business and to our survival. I'm thinking,
40:47.768 --> 40:50.855
as I look at you, opened up the aperture for us, I think. Would you,
40:51.064 --> 40:53.573
would you have bought and worn that Caballero 5 years ago?
40:55.192 --> 40:59.209
I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I'm wearing the Singer titanium
40:59.242 --> 41:02.622
Caballero with the cocoa brown dial, which is It's very
41:02.718 --> 41:06.779
you. It's very me, I think. So for me, what's, what's changed— I
41:06.811 --> 41:10.470
had the opportunity, like you said, to flip over the table and reset my collection,
41:10.598 --> 41:14.017
and it was definitely along 2 lines. One is I kind of rebuilt my collection.
41:14.274 --> 41:17.291
Yeah. So a lot of the watches I had to sell or move on from,
41:17.403 --> 41:20.757
I was able to acquire. Yeah. Again, fortunately,
41:21.752 --> 41:25.556
the privilege I enjoy being in the industry is I can
41:25.604 --> 41:28.830
be more picky about what I buy, and more things come my
41:29.038 --> 41:33.259
way, sort of opportunistically, so I can get
41:33.759 --> 41:37.083
better examples of things or whatever, really find— oh, that's true about the Seamaster
41:37.583 --> 41:40.617
300 Bond that I bought, which is a— which was actually my very first watch,
41:40.681 --> 41:44.054
except that one was quartz. Yes, one isn't. But to your point, this was a
41:44.134 --> 41:47.362
really good example that we saw before it went up for sale, so I snagged
41:47.862 --> 41:51.458
it. Yes. And the same thing is true for me. Like, I rebuilt my collection
41:51.958 --> 41:56.870
with a Seamaster 300, a vintage one from the '90s, a vintage Speedmaster,
41:57.400 --> 42:01.495
neo-vintage Rolex stuff that I really like, and rebuilt
42:01.995 --> 42:05.683
my collection really around like neo-vintage tool watches is what I really like.
42:05.731 --> 42:08.844
And so I rebuilt that collection. Yeah. And then
42:09.502 --> 42:13.593
I explored the world of independents. But even in independents,
42:13.609 --> 42:17.493
if I think about the last few watches I bought, like this Singer
42:18.006 --> 42:22.082
Heritage— or sorry, the Singer Caballero Titanium— or the
42:22.098 --> 42:25.532
Ming Uni, oh yeah, those are very kind of like tactical watches.
42:25.628 --> 42:30.169
Oh yeah, totally. So I've been able in the world of independents
42:30.669 --> 42:34.078
to gain exposure to and appreciate all that there is in independent watchmaking, and then
42:34.143 --> 42:37.589
within that world find the things that really meet my brief or meet,
42:38.054 --> 42:41.372
you know, really appeal to what I'm, what I'm attracted to.
42:41.436 --> 42:45.300
Now, the thing I thought you were gonna say about how
42:45.428 --> 42:48.137
has this changed your collecting was to say, well,
42:49.227 --> 42:52.641
it's really changed my collecting because I own half of the watches at
42:52.657 --> 42:56.408
Collective, or I own half of every watch in the safe at Collective,
42:56.424 --> 42:59.711
which is also true. And I, I do— sure, no, no,
42:59.727 --> 43:02.456
you can't wear them. No, no, no, no. But I don't think you need to
43:02.584 --> 43:06.278
wear something to collect it. You know, I— one of my favorite
43:06.778 --> 43:10.003
watches I own is a watch I almost never wear, which is like a
43:10.503 --> 43:13.905
1977 Seiko Turtle. I never wear it, but I love
43:14.405 --> 43:17.197
it. It will never go anywhere. I cherish that thing. I just— I love it
43:17.697 --> 43:21.533
as an object. And I feel that way about the watches in
43:22.033 --> 43:24.584
our safe, which is, of course, you and I aren't gonna wear them. They're gonna,
43:25.162 --> 43:27.571
you know, be delivered to someone as a new watch one day.
43:27.635 --> 43:31.048
But like I do view them in a sense as something of
43:31.096 --> 43:34.926
a collection because we buy stuff we believe in. See, I don't, I don't think
43:35.426 --> 43:39.012
about that as part of my collection, but I do recognize like the opportunity
43:39.044 --> 43:42.153
it provides us, which is we get— literally view it as part of my collection,
43:42.169 --> 43:46.046
but I view it as a form of a different kind of form of collecting.
43:46.383 --> 43:50.613
Sure. Which is where we're buying and literally investing in and acquiring
43:50.725 --> 43:54.058
watches that we believe in and excite us. A lot of dealers,
43:54.170 --> 43:56.939
mainstream watch dealers, don't pick their inventory.
43:57.293 --> 44:00.432
The truck shows up every week and unloads whatever came
44:00.932 --> 44:04.281
in from Omega or Rolex or whatever, and it's like you just have this— like,
44:05.333 --> 44:08.325
you know, like you're a goose being force-fed,
44:08.746 --> 44:12.479
you know, stuffed rotten. Eat the sub.
44:14.236 --> 44:17.655
But for us, what's different about the world of independent watchmaking
44:17.768 --> 44:21.600
is we are intentional with our orders. We don't— it's not just like the
44:21.665 --> 44:24.245
brand is like, you buy package of watch and it shows up and here it
44:24.261 --> 44:27.369
is and you sell it. No, we choose what we want.
44:27.433 --> 44:30.855
We choose what we— we choose the brands we work with. Yeah, we choose
44:30.887 --> 44:34.374
what— and we choose what we believe in. And so to me,
44:34.647 --> 44:38.406
everything in our safe is an extension of
44:38.422 --> 44:41.073
you and me and our point of view and what we believe in and who
44:41.154 --> 44:44.833
we want to support and the watches that fundamentally get us excited,
44:45.491 --> 44:48.849
the same way kind of collecting is. Now, we're custodians
44:48.946 --> 44:52.063
of them, we're, we're promoters of them,
44:52.239 --> 44:55.659
we're retailing them, But there is a level
44:56.172 --> 45:00.231
of personal investment, of course, in there that's
45:00.343 --> 45:03.696
similar to collecting. Yeah. Look, in the end,
45:04.594 --> 45:08.508
I wondered if by doing this when we started it 8 years ago
45:08.621 --> 45:12.022
that I would get bored of watches or numb to them.
45:12.936 --> 45:16.321
And instead what I found is quite the opposite.
45:17.043 --> 45:20.380
But instead of the way that I acted as a consumer, which was is
45:20.957 --> 45:24.792
highly acquisition-driven. I still am, I'm still buying
45:24.889 --> 45:28.403
watches and I'm still buying them like probably more than the average person does.
45:29.382 --> 45:33.313
But what I'm buying and the cadence
45:33.813 --> 45:37.437
of it is way, way, way more refined and way more about
45:37.937 --> 45:41.256
me, which I think is interesting because I've had people say to me like,
45:41.336 --> 45:44.160
well, if you're going to buy that watch, like, could you, you know, if you,
45:44.240 --> 45:47.032
hey man, that's cool, Longa, but like, are you really going to wear that?
45:47.129 --> 45:50.305
Because you only sell into And the answer to that to me is
45:50.337 --> 45:54.250
like, well, yeah, of course I will, because my passion for
45:54.330 --> 45:58.564
independent watches doesn't exist in a void from my love of watchmaking.
45:58.932 --> 46:02.637
Do I want to be in business with Lange? Probably not. No shade,
46:02.685 --> 46:04.770
but like, it's a giant holding company. I don't know if I want to do
46:05.270 --> 46:08.779
that. The watches are phenomenal, but why
46:09.279 --> 46:13.478
should that prevent me as a business owner from owning something
46:13.670 --> 46:16.689
as an individual? Jewel. And as a result, same thing with Breguet. I mean,
46:16.721 --> 46:19.209
like, you know, we're not going to— I'm sure the Swatch Group has a picture
46:19.709 --> 46:23.224
of me up on a dartboard, you know, but like chestnut, it's probably
46:23.724 --> 46:27.382
true. Maybe at a shooting range. But my point is that doesn't stop me from,
46:27.543 --> 46:30.738
from loving neo-vintage Breguet or giving them credit where credit is
46:30.834 --> 46:34.479
due on some of those new stuff. Yeah. Which like someone woke
46:34.527 --> 46:38.172
the sleeping giant up over there. That's awesome. So I
46:38.220 --> 46:42.170
guess my point is Being in this business hasn't
46:42.670 --> 46:45.976
changed how much I love watches. It has changed how I acquire watches, and it
46:45.992 --> 46:48.641
has increased the tenure for which I keep watches.
46:49.316 --> 46:52.559
Because if I'm buying them for the reasons I'm buying them for now,
46:53.506 --> 46:57.007
I'm more inclined to keep them for longer periods of time. Yeah.
46:57.408 --> 47:00.860
On a related note, one of the questions I get all the time,
47:00.892 --> 47:03.542
and it actually came up, it was a question we got from a listener,
47:03.590 --> 47:05.388
was like, well, do you just buy independents now?
47:06.400 --> 47:09.710
And the answer is obviously no. I buy,
47:09.886 --> 47:13.790
I buy independents and more mainstream watches. I just love watches. I buy what I
47:14.290 --> 47:17.742
love. And I would expect the same of our, of our clients.
47:17.887 --> 47:21.597
They, most of them just love watches. There are very few who self-identify
47:22.097 --> 47:25.437
purely as an independent collector. There, they are out there for sure, and,
47:25.935 --> 47:30.642
and bless those, bless those people. But retailing
47:30.754 --> 47:35.070
independent watches has actually given us a level of independence,
47:35.086 --> 47:38.116
not just in the way we collect, but in everything we do around our business.
47:38.437 --> 47:41.514
Yes. That I think people might not expect.
47:41.643 --> 47:45.185
Now, if you are retailing mainstream watch brands
47:45.685 --> 47:49.594
from the big holding companies, you don't have a ton of independence
47:49.658 --> 47:52.190
in the way— forget you're collecting for a second— in the way you run your
47:52.238 --> 47:55.685
business, the way you dress, the way you, the way you dress, the way that
47:56.185 --> 47:59.660
you buckle a watch on someone's wrist, which watch, which brand sits next to which
47:59.773 --> 48:03.732
brand in your display, what you can say publicly, your cologne
48:03.780 --> 48:06.893
in some cases. Yeah. All this stuff is highly controlled,
48:06.909 --> 48:10.633
and they sign agreements with these companies that give
48:10.745 --> 48:14.982
them tons of control over the retailer, what— every
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aspect of how they, of how they do business. They're very
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tightly controlled and very limited in what they can do, and they probably can't
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and shouldn't be wearing, say, like an independent watch. They may not be permitted to.
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It may not be permitted to. We, because we carry independent watches
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and independent watch brands, These are, you know, it's like the independents are
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this rogues' gallery of characters and geniuses and,
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and, you know, tortured people and all this stuff. And the
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people who are in independent watchmaking are doing it because they love it and they
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have a passion around watchmaking and creativity and art and all of this sort
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of stuff. And they don't make us sign crazy agreements and gag
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orders. And so we have a level of flexibility
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that few people in the watch industry really enjoy.
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Even in the media, you know, when we talked to Stephen Pulverin years ago
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about like, well, why does the media not— why aren't they more critical of watch
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brands? And one of the things he pointed out, among many things, was,
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well, it's about access to some extent. Sure. You need to be very careful about
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what you say, because if you go out on a limb and say
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something really negative, you may lose access to that brand. You know,
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that brand could be Patek or Rolex. And if you lose access to
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them, you're cooked as a journalist or a media entity.
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We don't have that problem. So, you know, in some ways,
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being in the business of independent watches has
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afforded us an independence with our collection. I can collect mainstream
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watches and I have the total freedom to do it. And so for,
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for that, I'm grateful. It's a— it's another reason to love independent
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watchmaking. Making. Shall we leave it there? I guess we'll leave it there.
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Well, thank you for listening. This, of course, is Open Work. It's a
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production of Collective Horology. You can find us online at
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collectivehorology.com, where you'll find all of those independent watches.
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And to get in touch, please send us an email, send us
50:08.186 --> 50:11.397
questions. We had questions on today's episode— see, we really
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do use them— ideas for show topics, all that stuff.
50:14.769 --> 50:17.187
We love it. And to do that, you can email podcast@collectivehorology.com.
50:28.723 --> 50:31.450
New releases from, uh, and some other releases from,