Kyle Rush: Shoot! Hey, my name is Kyle Rush, and you are watching the No Counts Given podcast. Happy one year anniversary, everyone. Happy one year anniversary to the No Counts Given podcast. I can't believe it's already been one complete year since the podcast has kicked off. And so many things that I want to talk about, so many things that we're going to be getting through. This is actually going to be our longest episode yet. This has to be our longest episode yet. I knew it was going to be long, but I don't want to break it out into parts. I'm done with the part one, part two, part three. It also feels Very weird calling it an anniversary or like a birthday. Like, what would you call this? I don't want to call it the one-year birthday because my partner's birthday is this weekend. And like the back-to-back birthdays feels weird. So many things in store for us today. ⁓ okay. First off, we're gonna be talking about IDL. I've talked about them twice already. We've covered some of their events. I went to their LA launch. We're gonna be talking about it a little bit more today since there are Two official events that have gone by and I have not been able to talk about them because we had coverage episodes and episodes planned already in the past. So today I'm finally going to sit down and we're gonna talk about the IDL Vancouver and New York series. And these balloons are gonna be waving everywhere because I got the AC kicking because I got like five lights in here. And so if these are moving and hit me in the head, just ignore it. What else are we talking about today? ⁓ I got blind items. ⁓ I think I have four. Yeah, four blind items that we're gonna be touching on today. ⁓ some these were all sent via email. Now I did get several of our voicemail blind items. I'm gonna be holding those off for our next blind item ⁓ segment, which is gonna be the end of June. I think I'm gonna switch it on and off because I I've been getting a lot of emails, but then I also get the voicemails every now and again. The emails are more frequent, so I think I wanna just give more time in between the two and break it up that way. Anyways, we have blind items that we're gonna be talking about. What else do we talking about today? ⁓ I got an interview. Now I'm sure everyone has seen this on social media. If you're in the dance team world, you've definitely seen this. The Source Dance Lab, they competed at the USASF World in the senior small hip-hop and senior large hip-hop divisions. I'm not sure there were ⁓ and they also had a jazz team as well, too. ⁓ but specifically in senior small, they had some discrepancies in the scoring, and some of the feedback and response to them was not very transparent. They had a very long post on Instagram. Go and read it ⁓ if you want to get a little bit more background into what happened to them and the discrepancies that we have. I we're also gonna be breaking it all down in our interview. It's such an insightful interview, and I think it's one that so many people are going to relate to, but there's so very few people in our dance team world that actually will speak up and speak on these things that are going on behind the scenes. And so we're gonna be talking about that with Ashley and Courtney from the Source Dance Lab. We also dropped the news that SFA is going to be competing at both NDA and UDA nationals. And I know that there is already a lot of conversation circling around it with the NDA and UDA competitions, not being able to compete at both. So we're going to talk about it. We have a sit-down conversation with TJ Maple, the head coach of SFA dance team. He's going to be joining us on the podcast today. And just get a little bit more background. I also posted a whole story about them on nocountsgiven.com. Go ahead and go check that out too. Cause that has a little bit more, that has a little bit more information on the roles that were set for the past two years. Actually, I got the past two years, but I'm sure it's been longer than that. As well as at the time the article was dropped, UDA did not have their 2026, 2027 rolls out for college. Very strangely enough, very weird enough, ⁓ they actually dropped today, two days after no counts given. Drop the news about SFA competing at both NDA and UDA. So we're also going to take a look at that before the interview with TJ Maple. And then I have my top 10 routines of the 2025-2026 season that we are going to be talking about. Some of these, listen, I throughout the season, there are just routines that just will play over and over and over again in your head. And if it's not the routine, it's like the song. Like I'm still singing tracks from a lot of these top 10 routines. And like palm vocals and all of the fun stuff and like little a counts and phrases just like run through my head at random times. Anyways, I have the top ten routines that I think I think I did a good job. I think I did a really good job at this top ten. ⁓ highlight some jazz routines, palm routines, hip hop routines. So stay to the end of the show for that. I have to give a few thank yous before we get to the ad reads really quick. ⁓ obviously I have to give a thank you to my sponsor, Dance Team Union. Dance Team Union is what allows no counts given to continue thriving and And provide you guys with a lot of the interviews and in-person interviews that we're able to do. So incredible thank you to ⁓ Dance Team Union, of course. Sharpen Up Dance Team Training and Dance Team Supply have been a sponsor for quite a while now on the podcast. And we started kicking off their ad reads in Jul and January, I believe it was. And I just have a great relationship with Ronnie and Lindsay, the partners and owners at Sharpen Up Dance Team Training. Actually, just saw them a few days, no, like two weeks ago in Dallas. They did give me. This for my background, you see it up there now. I added a little new addition. I have a little sharpen up logo now on top of my shelves here. ⁓ and then of course, Rebel. ⁓ Rebel was a great sponsor that we had on the show. ⁓ now nothing nothing happened. I know there's like they were like, Hey, is everything okay with you and Rebel? You haven't included them on any of your sponsor messages. Our contract ended. That was simply that. They were contracted with us to ⁓ sponsor a lot of the the coverage episodes that we did. However, keep a lookout for them. Maybe you'll see him on the podcast again soon. And then last but not least, I have to give a thank you to my partner. He's what really pushes me to not just stay true to myself, but also challenge my thought process a lot. And even though I do get upset about it, I'm like, why don't you just always agree with me? I know he has a he comes from a good place and he's always trying to just make me see both sides to every story. So I have to give a thank you to my partner. I love him so much and he's just supported me through all of this and is what really pushed me to even start a podcast and continue dance team coverage before I even had no counts given and all of the things. So ⁓ yeah, shout out to my partner. It's also his birthday this week and I'm pretty sure already said that. But anyways, let's get to the ad reads and then we will get to our first thing that we're gonna be talking about, which is the IDL International Dance League. Here we go. This season may be complete, but the next one is already calling. Dance Team Union Rankings are a season-long virtual leaderboard where teams from across the country compete, score, and rise all year long. Through multiple virtual events, teams submit routines, receive expert video critiques from DTU judges, and earn scores that build toward something bigger. Because when the season ends, it's not just about the rankings. Top teams earn national recognition, exclusive awards, and major grand prizes, rewarding consistency, growth, and excellence across an entire season. Every performance counts, every score matters, and every routine brings you closer to the top. The next DTU ranking season is coming soon. Train smart, compete often, and get ready to see your name on the leaderboard. We go. IDL. If you are not familiar with IDL, go to our podcast episodes that we included IDL coverage. I provided a lot of information, just how they run the event, how the rounds work, as well as I remember after the LA launch event, I gave a little coverage and background on the event and what I thought of the event. And ⁓ there were a lot of things that were on the website that weren't aligning with how the event was actually ran. And I don't know now that the Now, just to break it down for you, because I I don't think I've talked about it since the LA launch event. And a little after that, I did a little coverage on some news and investments that they actually hit. The LA launch event, I'm not sure if it was meant to be an exact carbon copy of their actual series. Because I remember there were things saying like there was gonna be four judges, and the four judges weren't all there. There were ⁓ sorry, there were supposed to be seven, no, six judges, but there were only four judges at the LA launch event. And there was an additional fan vote as well, too, where the fans get to vote for the teams competing in each round. ⁓ go to go watch that podcast. I provide a lot of information there. Now I did challenge a lot of things and then I saw that things were updated and changed and figured out on the website. The website now is definitely very resourceful. So IDL.pro, go and check it out. I think this is gonna be like the next major step in competitive dance. And I am fully backing what the IDL is bringing so far. Everything is so top tier. And coming from someone who I danced pro for the NBA. So I got to actually witness courtside NBA environment or sports arena environment. And I have to say, from the LA launch event, it was almost identical to the energy you would feel in a room at like a Golden State Warriors game, to be quite honest with you. The names that are represented in the IDL, you have GRV, you have Brotherhood, Quick Style. Royal Family, Jam Republic, and Who am I forgetting? Who am I forgetting? Who am I forgetting? ⁓ no. GRV 1 million, Quickstyle. Brotherhood, Jam Republic. ⁓ no, who am I forgetting? Brotherhood, GRV, Jam Republic, Royal Family, Quick Style, 1 million. I said ⁓ all. Wait, did I I don't know. Anyways, those are the names that are representing, and these are big, big names in the dance world just in general. And you see a lot of these. Athletes that are actually competing, they actually do pro gigs and they've done agency work and all of the commercial work that you could possibly think of. So to actually bring them into the same field and have them compete against each other, to me is like where I've always wanted to see dance competition in general. They're getting paid, they have contracts, they get to travel around the world and literally compete against the best of the best in their field. I've been tracking and following. ⁓ IDL very closely. And I have some predictions that I want to share. Coming up is the Sydney location series. So that is going to be June 20th. I wish I could be there, but I am definitely going to be watching the live stream and I cannot wait to tune in. The matchups that we have is going to be Jam Republic versus GRV. That's going to be match one. Match two is Quickstyle versus One Million. Match three is going to be Brotherhood versus Royal Family. So what happens is you have six judges and then you have a fan foot. Each team is going to go versus head to head. So for example, Jam Republic versus GRV. Now your goal is you want to score the highest out of each judge because that is how you're going to get your points total. Six total points are available from the judges, and you have one fan vote where the fans that are watching online as well as the and as well as in person are able to scan a QR code and vote for who they think should win the round. So that's like the tiebreaker for some of these for some of these matches that we've seen. We've seen it go three, three, and then it's ultimately up to the fans to break that tie. It is pretty incredible. That's that's not really something that we see in sports world. Like fans are able to be that common denominator for ties or just to put in your opinion alone. That is something I wonder if that's gonna continue going. Like when when the sport actually grows and the league grows, because I think I heard them say their next, I'm pretty sure it was like eight teams. So two teams that would be joining into the league. That we'd be able to see actually compete in the same match. So my point is is as it continues and not the same match in the same league, whatever. Cut that out if I have to. As it continues, as the as the season progresses and continues and we see seasons go by, go by, go by, there's gonna be a lot of teams, like three matches, probably not. It's probably gonna up being like six matches with all of these teams competing head to head. How how long is that fan vote actually going to be relevant into the actual competition? versus like a head judge or having a seventh judge and just allowing judges pick the rounds that move on. ⁓ it does give the fan vote does give it a very America's best dance crew feeling where we're able to vote at home. Like that's something that we see very commonly with dance competition television. The fans vote at home and the fans always choose whoever moves on. ⁓ okay anyway, so moving on to Sydney location, we have Jam Republic versus GRV. Now something important to think about when I'm looking at these matchups is I'm always looking at the ranges where these teams are competing so far. Some teams could have really large ranges, and some teams have a little bit of a small range. So Jam Republic's scoring right now is actually an 82 to 89. Now that 82 is pretty low. They did get that in their first competition in New York, match one. They did not move on to match two. And then they scored an 88.35 in ⁓ Vancouver against Quickstyle. And then in Vancouver, they're round two because they did end up winning that first match. They went against Brotherhood and 1 million and they got an 86.17. So with Jam Republic, we saw a trend go up. They jumped from 82 to an 88, but then we saw it slowly trickle down, which I'm not mad at. That 82 to 88, like a six-point jump, is fine. And then a two-point trend down going for that match two. That's fine. So they're kind of getting an understanding of where the competition lies. Now, GRV is the only team that has not made it past round one. They got beat in New York, then they got beat in Vancouver. I was actually surprised QuickStyle did beat GRV. I did a whole reaction video to it. Go watch it on my TikTok and collaborated with No Counts Given on YouTube. ⁓ but anyways, I was gonna say I did not think QuickStyle was actually going to beat GRV, but Quickstyle did beat GRV. ⁓ now, I do think GRV is going to beat Jam Republic in Sydney. Now GRV is ranging in 86 to a 91. Now, this is only coming from two scores because they only have two scores available for us to see. So I am predicting GRV is going to come back very heavy in Sydney. And I do think they are going to beat Jam Republic scoring one to six, meaning GRV is going to get six total points. I am leaving one total point to Jam Republic. I do think the fan votes have been a little low for GRV. So that's why I'm predicting that there will at least be one point for Jam Republic being the fan vote. But I do think out of all judges, GRV can completely swipe the competition against Jam Republic. All right, let's look at Quick Style versus 1 million. Now, this one's a little bit harder because they are trending a little close to each other. However, when we look at quick style scores, they're trending down since their first round. So it's like they brought their best piece their first round and then ⁓ New York round two and then Vancouver round one. They did not they did not bring anything that could score higher than that first round. So they did get an 89 New York round one. New York round two they were going against Brotherhood Royal Family. Brotherhood ended up winning and ⁓ quick style here scored an 89.83. So it went up a little bit 89 to that 89.83 But then Vancouver dropped five points to that 84. So given that they have those two routines that are scoring in that 89 range, I do think they could come back and score a little bit higher going into Sydney. However, competing against 1 million, who is scoring a range of 85 to an 88, 1 million is starting to trend a little bit down as well. Too they started off in the 87.33. Then Vancouver won, they went to an 87. Round two in Vancouver, they went to an 85.5. So Dropping down first point three three and then almost five points total is not great. However, I think it's gonna be tight. I think it's gonna be close. I think judges can go both ways with this one. However, I am going to say I think Quickstyle is going to come out and take that win, ⁓ winning four to three. So four judges, and I do think one million is probably gonna get a fan vote. I I'm not sure if Quickstyle is a is a fan favorite yet. ⁓ I haven't really totaled the fan votes yet. I'm mainly working based off scores right now. ⁓ but I do think they could get that fan vote. However, I think Quickstyle could ultimately win for the judges. All right. Now Brotherhood versus Royal Family. Now this one's a little tricky because if you've been watching if you've been watching Brotherhood at IDL, you just know that they are they are just mastering the art of IDL already. And it's only been two location stops. So when we look at Brotherhood scores, look. They scored a 94.51 in New York, round one. Round two at New York, they had an 80. Take that back. They are not scoring in the 80s. 93.16 in Vancouver, round one. Vancouver round two, they had a 92.99. So they are constantly in that 92 to almost 99 range. Now, Royal Family is is having a little bit of trouble. Royal family right now is at an 85 to like an 87 range. They have not been able to break out of the 86 range. They have not been able to get higher than that 86. I do think Royal Family could come back and score higher, like 88s, 89s. I don't think they're gonna hit the 90s yet. I do think Brotherhood is just gonna continue staying in that trend of like 95 plus. And Brotherhood is like the team to watch out for right now. Brotherhood is the team. If I knew I had to go against Brotherhood, I would probably be shaking in my boots because. There's just something about them that they just understand the score sheet so well, but also understand how to play like to the audience, but not let the audience appeal be too overwhelming where they're removing captions from the score sheet. Like everything is so thought out. So I do think Brotherhood is going to win that round against Royal Family. And I think I'm gonna make some people mad, but I think Royal Family, ⁓ sorry, I think Brotherhood is going to win 7-0. I think they are just going to whoop. competition. Now I'm not saying that I don't think Royal Family could come up and get better and start scoring a little bit higher because I do think they are going to do that. But I don't think Brotherhood is going to start scoring any lower just yet. ⁓ my top three predictions for Sydney. I think with GRV moving on to that second round, like the fire that has to be underneath you to finally move on to that second round. And I feel like they're just I feel like something crazy is going to come from GRV. I feel like we're gonna see a complete turnaround soon from GRV. They've already been competing so well, but just like getting into the competition and the captions and the cleaning and just really focusing on the art of the competition. I think they're gonna figure it out by Sydney. And I think GRV is gonna be first. I think Brotherhood is gonna be second, and I think Quick Style is going to be third. All right, let's get into some blind items. Roll the intro. I think it was this guy named Kyle Rush. they're moving over. Nico guy here. ⁓ All right, we have four blind items. Some asking for advice. Actually, I think all four of them are asking for advice. Actually, I think that's what a blind item does. Before we get into the blind items, by the way, if you want to send us a blind item, the next one that we're gonna be covering are going to be our voicemails. You could go to speakpipe.com slash no counts given. You could also find it on our link tree. All messages that are sent are always anonymous. That is the point of a blind item. No one's gonna know where it's coming from, who it's coming from. Now it's up to me to share it, put my name behind it, and give my own opinions on it. And I think that's the fun part about blind items. So let's get into our first blind item. This person said, I wanted to get your thoughts on something I've been wondering about when it comes to UDA and NDA High School National Championships. No, UDA and NDA High School Championships. What do you think about private? performing art schools competing against public schools in the same categories. I understand talent is talent and every team works hard, but it feels like there may be a major difference in resources. Some of these performing art schools have dancers training throughout the school day, access to specialized classes, and potentially more funding or outside support than a typical public school program. Do you think it's fair to place them in the same category when the level of training, schedule structures, and financial resources can be so different? I'm not trying to take anything away from a team's success But I do think it raises a real conversation about competitive balance, especially when the playing field may not look the same for every program. I'd love to hear your honest take on this. Okay. My honest take on this. I've never actually thought of this. This is my first time actually hearing this. I could see why it would be a problem for some teams. Okay, but however, hear me out. Most, most, most, most athletes that are competing on a high school program are most likely training at a dance studio as well, too. If you have a successful high school program, a lot of those kids probably do come from. Sorry, let me let me let me take it back for a second. If you're competing at the UDA high school or DTU level, and you're not competing novice, you're not competing intermediate, you're competing in the most advanced divisions that are offered, ⁓ which I think only NDA and UDA offer intermediate. DTU does not. However, besides the point. What I would say is if you're one of those top programs, your kids probably already come from a dance studio training background and are probably benefiting by going to dance studio training while you're still in the program. I think I think there comes an issue when high school dance coaches don't allow their dancers to compete at a studio. Now, I'm not saying don't allow buddies in the contract, but you've you build your schedules to make High school dance team, your one and only priority. I feel like all studio coaches and all studio owners have probably been there. And I'm sure vice versa, too. A lot of high school coaches have been there where studios don't want to hand over their dancers. However, my point is that the training you get outside of your regular practices is completely up to you. I I get that they might be training throughout the day and then probably having a practice in the evening when school's done. But that schedule can look very different, vice versa, if you're having your practices immediately after practice and then allowing the space for your dancers to actually go train at a studio and get that additional training. So if I'm a coach and I'm struggling with the thought process, private performing art schools are getting an advantage because they just have more training time. I would put my dancers in in an environment where they could also get the same or close to the same amount of training time. A lot of these dancers, all because you go to a private performing arts school does not mean you're going to be a great dancer. What you put into the sport and what you put into the art is what you're gonna get out of it. And if I want to become a better dancer, that means training even more, even outside of practices, so that way I could get even better. So that's my honest take of it. I don't see a really big problem with it. I really don't. ⁓ and it's not like Private performing art schools are the ones that are dominating every single division as well. So that's my honest take of it. I think it is a valid conversation and a valid thought process. And I'm sure there's gonna be people with ⁓ different, different opinions. So ⁓ that that's what I would say on it. All right, here we go. Number three. All right, we're getting into two big ones. yeah, the the next two ones are are pretty long, so I might have to break it up as I actually go because I'm gonna forget details. All right, my dancer started competitive dance a couple years ago at a smaller local studio. At first, it felt like a perfect fit. She was new, eager, and just happy to be in the room. But pretty quickly she started progressing faster than anyone expected. Shout out. That's just natural talent, if you ask me. If you're if you're progressing faster than most people that have been at the studio, then yeah, that's Definitely natural talent. By her first season, she was given a solo. Wow, moved up levels and started placing really, really well. That should have been exciting, but instead it seemed to put a target on her back. One of the main teachers at the studio has daughters who also compete. And ever since my daughter started placing above them, the energy has completely shifted. Yep. I already know exactly where this is going. It's not always obvious enough for people to call it out, but it's obvious obvious enough for my daughter to feel it. There are little comments, side eyes. Backhand did corrections, moments where her wins are brushed off or made to seem undeserved. Instead of celebrating a kid who is working hard, but it feels like this teacher is quietly trying to humble her. All right, before I even continue, one thing I want to say is I don't know if it's gonna be in here, but I am already curious if you've had any one-on-one conversations with said teacher. I don't know. If like maybe there was something that happened at a competition where maybe your daughter won and there wasn't an immediate congratulations or things were just moved on and things go. I will say for dance teachers, if I want to play both sides, at competitions, things could be moving so fast. I know there's times where awards happen and I already got to go backstage for my next performance. And I'm not even able to congratulate the soloist or the dancer that just One a first place or a second place or whatever. However, let's continue because I I'm curious to see where this continues to go. Meanwhile, the teacher's own kids are constantly featured. Yep, that's usually how it goes: front and center, lead parts, prime placements, the kind of favoritism everyone sees, but nobody wants to say out loud because they don't want drama or retaliation. The studio owner is rarely around, so this teacher basically controls the room, and this is where I'm struggling. Because how do you advocate for your child? When the person creating the problem is also the person dis deciding casting, placements, opportunities, and how your child is treated in class. My daughter is now 13 years old. She loves to dance, loves her friends, and still has other teachers at the studio she really cares about. But I can see the situation starting to dim her confidence. She went from feeling excited to feeling like she has to apologize for being successful. Part of me wants to leave after the season and find a healthier environment, but another part of me is scared. What if she doesn't fit in somewhere else? What if another studio has the same politics with a different logo on the door? Oof. I think in this instance, there needs to be a very serious sit-down conversation with you and your daughter. Is this gonna be safe for your mental health to continue? Are you okay with possibly not getting as many features or as many solos? Right? Then one the next sit down I would do is I would sit down with the studio owner and the teacher without my dancer present. And I I would want 100% transparency. And how you leave, filling that room after that meeting, I think will tell you enough. If you feel secure, if you feel heard, you feel understood, then you know what? Give it another round, see if things change this year. If you feel like things were not listened to, if you feel like your voice was not heard, I would leave. There is not enough money in this world that could make me want to. Keep my kids somewhere. Mind you, I'm not a parent, but if I was, keep my kids somewhere where they feel like they are small, they are not seen, they are not heard, their their opportunities are being torn away from them because you're just going to create, not you, let me take that back for a second, not you as the parent. This environment is going to create a very, very toxic and traumatic environment for your daughter. If you want your daughter to continue and continue to grow and seek opportunities after she's done with the studio, going to college, going to commercial, I would probably go somewhere that is going to offer my daughter a healthy environment. I would do my research beforehand. I would look at Yelp reviews. I would reach out to parents and I would ask their true, honest thoughts. And I would probably go somewhere else. I don't think it's worth keeping your daughter in. An environment where they just don't feel like they are a part of a culture. I feel like the fun part of being a dancer at a studio, especially when you're competing, is you feel like you're a part of a culture. All right, here we go. Last one. I wanted to submit something anonymously because I think it speaks to a bigger issue happening in high school dance programs right now. I was recently removed from my position as a high school dance coach after months of conflict with one parent, and honestly, I still feel like I'm trying to process how it all happened. This was not a situation where expectations were unclear. My program had a contract, team standards, financial expectations. Families were made aware of what it took to be a part of the team and what the expectations were if they didn't want their athlete to participate in nationals. This issue started when one parent repeatedly challenged those standards. This parent also held a leadership position in our boosters organization, ⁓ which made the entire situation even more complicated. Nationals became one of the biggest breaking points. Families were given clear options. They could fundraise, pay their portions, or they could choose not to participate. This family chose to opt out. But after making that decision, I was criticized for continuing forward with athletes and families who did choose to go. ⁓ first thing I would say is I wonder in the contract, did you mention that it was like what was it a survey? Yes, we want to go. No, we don't want to go, or was it? Yes, I opt out of nationals and I do not want to travel to nationals with the team or something along those lines. So listen, I I've been in my days where when you are talking to dance parents, you have to talk to them like they're preschoolers. You have to dot, you have to dot your I's and cross your T's, and you have to tell them how exactly everything goes. And you have to just lead them the way like they are a little toddler. They have to know every single thing. I'm not saying all dance parents are like that, but there's always going to be that. One parent, especially in high school sports, that just has to make sure that they know every single detail, even though it is in a registration book or a contract right in front of them because parents do not like to read. Anyways, things got worse when this parent's athlete lost a leadership role after not meeting the expectations required for that position. All right, I already see where this is going. There was some kind of retaliation. I know how these high school dance moms are. Listen, I know how it is. After that, the communication became Constant emails, complaints, accusations, and information being sent to administration and eventually the district. This is such a hard situation. This is such a hard situation. The part that still does not sit right with me is that there was no real formal investigation. Other athletes were not interviewed, other families were not asked about their experience. The full team culture was not truly evaluated. It feels like the loudest complaint became the official story. Oof. And what makes this even harder is that our program just had accomplished something huge. We play second at nationals after years without a title. The team was growing, the athletes were improving, and the competitively, the program was finally breaking through, getting second place at nationals. So, my question is: how are we as coaches supposed to lead with standards if one parent can challenge every boundary until this district decides the coach is easier to remove than the conflict? All right, so parents are so hard. Listen, I remember one of my very first high school dance team coaching jobs. I was I wanna say I was maybe 20. And while I didn't know everything, I knew enough to coach a high school team. And it was parents. It was honestly the parents that ultimately ran me away from that position. It was just so much they think that it's like a full-time job. That's the first frustration. When you're a high school dance coach, I don't think a lot of these parents understand you're getting paid a stipend. You get paid twice, maybe three times a year, and it's it's enough to maybe cover your rent. So, like, it's not the best position out there. And it's it's hard because a lot of people that actually do coach high school sports are people that really, really love the sport deep down. I'm not just talking about dance. Like, I know all of my high school coaches, I just know, loved every single part of the sport, whether it was track and field, whether it was football, whether it was basketball. They just loved every single part of the sport and As a as an adult, as I got older, I'm like, wow, I already know that these coaches were not paid anything, but they put their heart and soul into it. And those are things that the district doesn't care about. What they care about is just saving face. What is going to make their district look good? And if that means not getting any more complaints and emails from parents, yeah, they're probably gonna remove the coach because they always will go to the parents. I feel like they always just favor parents first. It's hard to find athletic directors and and and superintendents or principals that are really going to actually appreciate what you're trying to build because everything revolves around football nowadays. Anyways, besides the point, I think it's hard because these these these districts and and schools and high schools, they just really need to learn how to care for and support their athletes. And I think with what you're seeing with athletes weren't getting interviewed, there is no formal investigation on whatever was happening. Like it just goes to show you that maybe that wasn't the place for you. And maybe you need to go find somewhere that is actually going to value you. And when you're interviewing, I think this is a great learning opportunity. So that way, when you're interviewing for your next position, be candid. Talk about your past experience and talk about what you're not looking for from a from the district or from the athletic trainer or whoever's supporting the dance team program. Tell them what you are looking for. And if they agree with you, they'll take you on. If they don't agree with you, then it wasn't meant for you. Let them go. Yeah, I think that's what I gotta say about that. I am so sorry that happened to you. I know that this year I saw a social media clip of someone saying that, you know, one of their friends got fired recently. One of my friends also got fired from their position. Actually, I quietly removed from their position, which just disgust me. And like two of my friends on the East Coast, I know got fired from them from their positions as well, too. And it's always No explanation. It's there's never an explanation. It's just, yep, sorry. It's not gonna work out. We're gonna go a different route, but good luck. I'm over it. Well, again, sorry that happened to you. And ⁓ I wish you the best of luck. I hope you I hope you find a position that fits you and fits the culture that you're trying to build. All right, here we go. Let's go into listen, we got a long interview here. We have Courtney and Ashley from the Source Dance Lab. I'm not gonna give background right now on the situation that happened. You're gonna hear a little bit about it in the in the interview that I did. This interview is fully, fully about transparency at USASF Worlds and what is being rewarded, what is not being rewarded, some discrepancies that we're finding and trends that have been going on for years at USASF Worlds. So Take a listen to this interview that I had with Courtney and Ashley. Sit back, buckle up. It's about an hour long. It is very good though. Very fun conversation. Before we get into it though, I do want to say major thank you to Courtney and Ashley. I just appreciate both of you. ⁓ and I appreciate that we're not always agreeing on the same thing, but we could sit back and we could have conversations and we could be honest with each other and share feedback or whatever it is that we have to do and still have respect. For one another. Those are the kind of relationships I value. So ⁓ here we go. Give it up to you, Courtney and Ashley. Woo! Yay, here we go. As a coach, I think that dance is evolving, and I don't know if the competition world and industry is pushing to get the change. It's this is how it's done. This is our protocol, this is what we do. The industry is lacking creativity. The story that was always told to us is well, it's been this way for many years. We want your money, we want your team. Here's your box. We don't want you to do any more. Certainly organizations didn't appreciate my kids and didn't allow them to grow. I'd always felt like they'll just replace you with another team. Like in an abusive relationship, the cycle needed to end. DT was setting the tone for what the path forward should be. Even though it was scary, it was the right choice to make the jump. I saw weight lifted off of my kids and they felt hungry again. We are like a complete 180 of a program because of Dance Team Union's philosophy. Everyone in the school has more respect for the dance team. From registering for camp all the way through the nationals. GTU is going to support you and make your program better. What do you need? What can we do for you? How can we help your dancers? They build us up as coaches and they're like, go out there and just do your job. Anyone that comes into the DTU family will feel that they have a personal relationship with the DTU staff. At the end of Nationals, I get a phone call from somebody and we have an honest conversation. Very transparently. We love this, we don't love this. And I'm heard. There is so much freedom with music and costuming choreography rules. They want you to go out there and be the boldest team that you can beat. When I think about what we have now that we didn't before, it's a voice. What those kids really can do is so much more than what you see on a sideline. It's their time to shine. They feel like the stars of the show. They were seen and respected and empowered. That's gonna give you that push to go out there and perform a little bit bigger. That's where you see breakthrough. Give the people what they want. If you want phenomenal communication. If you're sick of your dancers not being heard, if you're serious about change, be part of the change. Break the mold. We're not in a box. We can be bold and we can be ourselves. Be you. It's one of the best decisions that I've made as a dance coach. I'm so happy to be right now. You guys haven't touched. So can you guys can you guys just like kind of give me a little bit more of that background of like what you guys do throughout a season and circuits you've been to? Yeah, it's kind of crazy. So ⁓ and every year does change. Every year does change, but yeah, well we just try to like switch it up sometimes or every like two or three years our clients want you know they want to change. Yeah. And I feel like as we're from the New Jersey, New York area, it's so transient. That like there's always new stuff like coming to us. Courtney's just exit exiting 'cause our dog has to get l ⁓ my parents dog has to get loaded. ⁓ so we have I know, it's just like this is what it's like being a studio owner, a coach, a mom, a wife. It's no one sees this part of it. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. So we ⁓ compete at like the regular regional circuit of dance, like meaning like the star powers that beyond the stars, the journeys, the true talents. That's where you're gonna really like the traditional dance, that's what I'm trying to say. Like if you're familiar with dance moms at the circuits that they would film at, like that's the traditional competitive dance world. ⁓ and that's really where we You know, we all really started and a lot of our routines go there. We do all styles, which people are like, ⁓ it was your first time in jazz. I'm like, No, it was our first time jazz at worlds. But we've done jazz contemporary, lyrical, like we do all that in this like regional competitive world. We also do we didn't do it this past year, but ⁓ World of Dance, we've done New York and New Jersey and we've won it. I think what, three or four times. ⁓ we've done Prelude East Coast, we've done that two times. ⁓ and then we do like the convention circuit. We do the convention circuit the break of events, revel. ⁓ you know, we do those and then we do All Star. So we yeah we really build our kids to everything and ⁓ we used to do monsters. ⁓ we used to do monsters and chaos, like love monsters. Yeah, yeah. And you know, ⁓ Courtney, like you were back in the day monsters, like nappy time. I was like on monsters, like kidding. I mean I didn't think ⁓ yeah. So like I danced professionally before I opened up my first studio. So like I was one of the original like Pulse proteges with Jojo Gomez and Jay Fevis. ⁓ I ended up taking a different direction because I loved teaching. Yeah. Yeah. So we're exposed them to everything. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, we exposed them to everything because of her background and then like my sports background and then my cheer background and fusing it together. We were like, you never kind of know where life's gonna take you. So if we only put our dancers in one One box, they're only then trained one way, and they might turn eighteen and be like, I want to go out to LA and be a commercial professional dancer, but all they done is all star and they only know one way. Or vice versa. They've only done commercial dance and then they're like, I wanna be on a college dance team, but I don't know. What is lines, columns? What do you mean? I can't go off the floor. It's it's it's all different ⁓ Systems, right? It's all different parts of your brains. And for us, if our parents can handle it financially, but also ⁓ their time, it was important for us to expose them to actually every path of dance. All-star is like secondary actually at our school. So ⁓ you know, we have about 75 to 100 competitive athletes. ⁓ that's better. Yeah. ⁓ but then we ⁓ only All-Star, we have I would say about 30, and that's like between a junior. you're in a senior team. So it's a very small portion of our studio. Yeah. What made you guys want to even get into All Star to begin with? Because I mean you guys could tell me when you started and why you wanted to get started. Great story. So so the first thing is back when Ash and I first met, ⁓ back in about like 2009, 2010, yeah, we came across UNLV's Snapback and Tattoos. Well was in 2012. Yeah, and iconic. And that's what made us fall number one fall in love with UNLV, but also fall in love with this world. And I was like, What is what is this? And I'm such like a big Disney person to begin with, and I made my wife. Years later, but we're like, I love this. It's so like athletic, and hearing like the you know, the sports casters over talking about dance as a sport. So that was like the first thing. The second thing is back in I want to say it's like 2016-2017 when we opened up our studio, her and I, you know, like typical coaches complaining to each other, like, how come the kids aren't auditioning more for CTG and block and why don't they want to go to conventions everything? So we actually surveyed our kids because we had a small amount of kids who Were they were doing like the Justin Bieber tour, and we were like, What's wrong with you guys? Why don't you want it? And they raised their hand and they were like, Well, I want to be an attorney, I want to be a nurse, a doctor, a doctor, and I can't really pursue that, but I love dancing. And they wanted to go to college, and so we got in the car that night, and Court's like, What are we doing? I was like, I don't know, we just opened up the studio, like, what like what is going on, and you know, all the things. And she goes, I really think we should look at the all-star route. And I was like, I no, like I know anything. Well, I knew it from cheer and I was like, I don't know. Like I it's so like Boxing and like, you know, and back then it was even more ⁓ we call it like pictionary. Like it was more picture based. ⁓ and I was like, I really like how what we're doing, and she's like, ⁓ I I think this can be it. We can get kids to continue to dance for four more years, but go to college, right? Yep at the same time and get the degree to be the lawyer, the doctor, whatever, but they still get to dance. And that's it. And that was that's how it came about. ⁓ The first year at Summit, and then we started a world, and you know, we made it through semis, we finished at 17th, we didn't make it the finals, but then a week later We shouldn't have made it finals. We shouldn't have made it the finals. So then a week later, because we like our we were great dancers, but we just didn't understand the notice. And that's correct. That's a big thing. And a week later, we took the same set, an extended version of the set, and we ended up winning second place at World Advance. So it was just like so like we lost. All right, we got seventeenth at Worlds and that year I think the senior small and we've been in senior small for almost about like nine years now, I think, and with the COVID year, like I don't know, it's like eight or nine, right? And ⁓ we were seventeenth out of forty two. So to us I was like, We made top twenty. What? Like then Later we fly home, we go to World of Dance, New Jersey, and we get second with the same routine. So in the adult division. In the adult division. Wow. And that kind of I was like, all right, it's the formula. Let's figure this out. And that next year we reached out to Napy Tabs and they did our routine. And then we got connected with Nappy Tabs. That was a cool experience. Anthony Kinn, he came out to Jersey. We had a great routine and then COVID kind of slammed us in the face. ⁓ but that routine did great, but that kind of opened our eyes to the formula of the collegiate world and it really started us planning for the next five years and now we're here. We're we're in twenty twenty six challenge. Wow. So this year at World Well I want to explain the processed world. So let's go. Did you guys get your bid at Jamfest this year for C No we got our bid actually at C D E. It's a it's like cheer and dance extreme in ⁓ Oxen Hill Met And that was a paid bid or partial paid? Yeah. Okay. So yeah you know Yeah. For the I guess For us dancers, that's like our paid bid. We don't really have that for like cheer does. But for those that don't know, you go to competitions. I feel like a lot of people probably know the all-star route, but just to explain it briefly, you go to these national events, you want to compete, you want to get one of the highest scores. It's like they give a partial pay to like highest open or highest senior team, and then Teams are awarded. I don't know if it's the same amount. I've been out of the USAS uphral, but I'm pretty sure it's like five thousand dollars that you get towards like your registration or something. Yeah, okay. And then that's considered like yeah, the paid bid. However, it used to be very different back then where ⁓ partial paids, like you would you would skip the first round, you would end up in the second round, and then you would be you would perform like in that last set of brackets as that's what like that partial paid bid. ⁓ recipient would get. ⁓ that was different this year. Like and you guys noticed that before worlds even happened. So what happened there? So before we go into this, I just want to put like a PSA because I know ⁓ yeah, I was about to say also go ahead. Go ahead. I just want to put a little PSA out there because I know after we posted and posted. There was a lot of back and forth and we've received a lot of calls from from studio owners, from gym owners. Gym owners. From judges. From varsity. And then Thank you for mentioning judges because I forgot to write that on my note, but that's a conversation that needs to happen because I did see what happened on social media. But continue going. Yeah, right. Yes. And yeah. So I'm glad you're noting that because that that's it's very important. So I did want to just say that like like I know that like And I said this to you when we spoke prior that, you know, we d we don't have to agree on everything and whether, you know, there's some things that you say or I say, but I think that that's healthy. And, you know, we I feel like you and I have always been able to have real conversations and respectful conversation. I think that's something really big that the industry is lacking right now. And somewhere along the way disagreement has got treated like disrespect and questions are attacks and think that it's just like dangerous for the industry. And I just I believe you should be able to challenge systems with hard questions and have a mutual respect though at the same time. ⁓ and that's why I actually felt comfortable with coming on to this podcast. Not because we expect everyone to agree with it, but we sh conversations like this should be allowed to happen. It shouldn't feel that you shouldn't have an opinion and you know a huge part of this entire situation is it it exposes the people in industry are they're scared to talk. For all different reasons. and it's not that they don't have opinions or concerns. They're just afraid of the backlash, the politics, losing opportunities and being labeled difficult. ⁓ and that's what keeps the culture it it stops the culture from evolving. Yeah. So even if people today disagree with parts that like we're saying, that's okay. Like I feel like that's the point of this like whole conversation in itself. I agree. I want to add on to that as well, too, because there might be like some topics where it might feel like ⁓ it's not We're not saying everything verbatim, right? And I want to make sure that we're we're sticking on to the topic of the subject alone. So this is not coming towards any program. This is not coming towards any choreographers. This is not coming. I think the I think the rankings of how small senior turned out were respectful. I think there are a lot of questions though with the transparency side to the rankings. I I know I'm already probably gonna say it a billion times before this interview even starts in the episode, but I could say it a billion times and people will still Try to comfort my neck. So, but I do appreciate that we could have conversations, and I know you don't agree with everything I say, and vice versa, but we can have these respectful conversations, and that's what pushes an industry to grow. What pushes an industry to grow is not a two-minute routine that hits the floor, it is the transparency around that routine is how we're going to push the industry to grow. So I appreciate you coming on and talking. So, anyway, yeah, back to what we were saying. No, and I think this is important because I think we're both gonna go into some. something really bigger than the both of ourselves. ⁓ and I feel like you've had a lot of heat on your back the last year or so. And I think it's just cause you're opening your mouth and silence makes people who are in power po more powerful. They want you to be silent. ⁓ and ⁓ someone said to us it was a a judge and said that you're doing something really hard, but it's really important, so keep going, even if it feels impossible. And when that judge said that to us, this was after this was like a week after we're all so we had a conversation and I looked at Courtney and I said, Yeah, it's this is bigger than us. So I know going into this, yeah, it's gonna get a little deep for people, but just know we're not just n us or Kyle we're not discrediting anything. I think it just shows that both parties, you know, we want To see the industry grow because we do care about it. You know, we've seen so many programs in the past who just kind of bow out and then take a different change of course, especially, and maybe it's just because of our background. We've noticed that in the hip hop division, and we don't want to just bow out and just you know go on our day because we love what we do and I see the importance, but the system is just broken. So, like, what can we do to try to fix it? I agree. I I have that same. I want to tag onto that too, though. ⁓ I've been, I mean, I feel like I've been watching. As long as both of us have been. And anyone that sits there, and I know that there are parents that have probably been to Worlds for years, and it's not it's not a blind eye. Like we all see things that are happening, we all see scores. Luckily, that part of the transparency is out there where we can look at scores. I can't see everyone's captions, and I can't see what judges are scoring, so that's what troubles me in some areas. But there's there's that part of transparency where yeah, I completely agree. Anyways, let's go to the partial page. So you usually get a partial page, usually perform semi-finals end of the bracket it was different this year can you guys explain it to me from your POV yeah so ⁓ like you said usually getting a partial paid is an honor and so we first started worlds when we placed that 17th we didn't get a partial paid it you know we got an at large and we performed in the very early part of the division because it was it was an honor and we knew going into that next year in order to stand a chance to even get into the top 10 to competition Compete against those top dogs during that era of senior small hip hop in worlds. We had the first step was that partial paid bid. ⁓ so we get the partial paid bid, we get it early on out this season, and that's always our goal. Get it as early as we can, get the feedback, and then from there just build the routine. ⁓ get the partial paid. Season goes, and we we get the schedule for worlds. Actually, our kids got it before we did because there wasn't an email sent. So you just had to go online. Which that was that was different. too but I mean maybe it was the internet I don't I don't know whatever and our our kids were like we're going first And I said, What's like no, there has been a mistake. I said you guys are reading it wrong. So I go to the website and we are first in a three hour division. We went on a half. Three and a half. We went on at nine ⁓ two, nine ⁓ fourish, whatever, you know, whatever. And the last team went on around like twelve ⁓ four, twelve ⁓ six, you know, in that range. and there was routines in between, which is normal for semi-finals. ⁓ and then there was like a thirty or fifteen to thirty minute break in between because Because the judges are human. ⁓ and immediately I said, Yeah, we need to reach out to someone. So I emailed six different people because it's very hard to find emails to get in contact with someone. very hard. Like you have a point, you have a point of contact, but they don't really get back to you like in a good window. And because it was so close to world, I get it. They're probably so busy, and I get that. So I reached out to every email I could possibly find on the internet. and I finally got a response. And basically I give I didn't just say, hey, like, I don't want to go first. I was just like, I think it was more like correct. Like because in past histories, if you got that partial paid bid, you were in the second half of the show because of the honor. ⁓ and the at-larges were in the front. So I said, if this is accurate, is there another way that maybe we can do this? Because it just seemed ⁓ it just doesn't seem to sit well with us. And we Yeah. I'm pretty sure I remember too, because I I you guys said you guys got your bid early on in the season. I feel like I remember it being in that order. Like the earliest you got your bid because that's when you would register by, that's when you would perform. So usually it's like the first person that gets that bid is usually like the last person to perform because that's the honor of getting that partial early, versus you get the at large, then you upgrade to the partial. You're gonna be at the bottom half of that partial pay. Bracket. I remember it being that way. I could be wrong though. I I don't know the exact like order, like of how they how they used to do it. I all I know is partial paid was the honor of the second half. And and that was always our goal. Like just get the partial paid so that way we could be up against the best of the best. And make you know it feel like. But I've been in those shoes. I've been 25. ⁓ Fourth. I've been seventeenth. The year got super in senior small. We did not get a full paid bid until later. And it just because we got knocked out by Jazz and It just happened. But According to worlds and the standard from all these years, from what you can remember too, Kyle, like the best teams always had the partial payment bid. And those are the teams that you wanted a chance to compete against. So when I was 17th, I am in how we talked to our kids, we are not the best then here yet. We're not even touching top ten. I don't even get to compete. At the time, the big dogs were legendary and Pittsburgh Athletics. Like they were the the top dogs, and I just want A chance to just be around them. I didn't even care about competing next to them. I just wanted to be in the realm of it. And that's no more. So when that was questioned, the response back was just very like, you know, the at-large people feel like it's an unfair advantage, which I get too. But then what's the point of a partial payday? What's the point of chasing bids? Then you might as well just go to one event. And it doesn't matter what you think. It doesn't matter. You know, instead of a lot of all events don't come mere New Jersey. So we have to travel. So then we might as well just save our parents money, go to one, get the invite, and then go. Yeah. And you know, I think for us why we questioned a little bit more. We did all the research we could. Our kids were doing it. We were the only current gold medalist in any division that was opening up a division. Why? I was just about to mention that. Yep. Yeah. It just kinda seemed ⁓ and you know, they told us that it's like an app. They they used to do it where they used to pick it out of a hat, but then 'cause of crossovers and I do remember that at a time. ⁓ and then the crossovers and that became crazy and I get it. ⁓ you know putting together, you know, things like even like something s ⁓ as at a small scale like a recital and you have crossovers, I understand that. It just didn't sit well with us. But we're a small program, so if it was the crossovers that we literally said we're like, I'll Switch my jazz, you know. Yeah, and I'm gonna say it too, like I don't I don't care who I am. I think if you're the gold medalist, you should not be performing the first gold medalist from the previous year, you should not be performing first in a division period. Unless it's like you come out of semifinals and you're ranked last, then sure, go first. Yeah. But if you are the returning champions, you're coming back with the partial paid bid, you should have the privilege of performing in one of those last bracketed spots. I remember ⁓ also, I mean, ⁓ no one can turn a blind eye to the flow dance post that went up with the prediction. Predictions and then that just kind of went everywhere. But I do want to I do want to say because I do predictions myself. I love doing predictions. I feel like how I will say I give a little background when I give predictions. I explain why I think a team's gonna place XYZ. So when I saw it, it didn't rub me the wrong way. I actually liked it. I love a little competitive edge. ⁓ but seeing that, you guys were ranked what was it first of the prediction? And then to see on the schedule. There was there's three slides. The first slide was us ranked first and then we were ranked second and then we were ranked third. So it was the same three teams, just kind of just switched around. But there were the same three teams picked out of I don't even remember how many were small senior. It's probably the largest division at world. Seven or it was like qualified in order to be elegant. So that's what I was gonna say. Like ⁓ you know, and if I I think people didn't listen, I've talked to a lot of coaches and some of them ⁓ don't care, they feel how you do, and some of them are like that was completely wrong. ⁓ I came from a cheer background, so cheer's been doing this for a while. They treat it very much like a sport, like the Super Bowl. And the minute that we want dance to feel like a sport. we complain about it. So like which way is it? you're speaking my language. You are speaking my language. And people can say that's easy for us to say 'cause we were we our name was on the board, but No, I don't care. With all due respect, our name should be on the board because from past years we have proven results. You know, and so has Head Dollhouse and so has Head Legendary. Now I'm not saying any other team is discounted. No. But if we want to treat it like a sport, like the Super Bowl, like it's very simple to say, ⁓ you know, the Chiefs are gonna rank this this year. I don't even know the Super Bowl. Like you know, I'm just saying ⁓ No, no, I agree. I feel like it also gives an opportunity for athletes to start rallying or behind your program. You're not worth it. Like, hey, you need to pay attention to to dance dynamics or someone and then like it starts a conversation. So, you know, I agree. I'm on the sports side, but I get both sides. I get it. And Flow Dance, they wrote I mean, if you went to their website, it was based off of five USASF sanctioned competitions. They took the scores from there and that's what it was ranked. Now you have sub off competitions. You have like C D E, which is a like it's ⁓ off brand. You have C G it's an off brand. But they don't have to technically submit their scores to varsity or on the varsity website, which a lot of people don't understand that. So that's why certain teams weren't listed up there, even though they might have been getting as high scores as we. Yeah. You just maybe went to an off brand. Flow Dance was basing it off of like, I think it was like Jamfest, UDA, like a f I don't yeah. A few like there was five. ⁓ and that that's the methodology like behind it. There was no opinions or favoritism going before it. But it's just stats. You know, the rankings explode online. The schedule drops two days after prediction favorites open like, you know, like open the division. Like, you know, we open it and then the rankings suddenly disappear. You know, we ⁓ yeah, I remember that. And then it pops up the next day and it was like Blink. They were like Blake, fill in your own names. Yeah. So even if everything was coincidental, the optics were just terrible. Yeah. I I want to ask though, do you feel because whenever I've done predictions, I've never gotten pushback like the way Flow Dance does. Do you feel like that pushback is happening because people see the politics that happened behind some of these companies? So they're like, here we go, it's in front of our face. We're starting to see it. Tricky question. ⁓ You know, it's it's actually us because we're a smaller program. So like we we only have fourteen kids in our senior small and then we have ⁓ twenty in the large team. Like that's all we're bringing. I want flow dance just to cover us. And you know, that's just you know, we're that small. ⁓ I think there's a lot of heat around senior small hip hop and I think it flowed from UDA from College National. I think actually every hip hop division did. And you know Negative, positive, I just think there was a lot of heat around senior small and I don't really know why. ⁓ No, there was a lot of heat last season too. But not like this season. Not like this season, but our division is usually very tense. ⁓ and there, you know, there shouldn't be drastic drops and et cetera, and sometimes there are. So I think that's what started to kind of ruffle. ⁓ but I just I just think yeah, I just think it ruffled some feathers in some areas and ⁓ it the comment section got heavy. And it just for me, I I don't like ⁓ poor sportsmanship and I just think there was things going on that shouldn't have gone on. Yeah. I agree. So let's get into actual worlds. You guys go to worlds, they didn't change the order. You guys did end up performing first out of your division. What you guys got their scores back? Did you already predict what the scores were going to be and what did you what was the follow up? Yeah, we At home three weeks before we get the schedule, I email the six people and Courtney and I have a real conversation. I say, We're gonna be in fifth or six. And then and that's lucky. And I said, and if we make it to fifth or six, it's very lucky. And I had a few conversations with a few people in the varsity circuit and they're like, No And some people were like, Yeah, but it's gonna be tough. Like no one's in denial of a three and a half hour division. You're opening up and you're gonna take fur there's no way. The judges are not opening you up with anything higher than an eighty nine. Yeah. So we told our kids, but our kids were our kids are very intelligent when it comes to especially hip hop. We as we said, we they're well versed in different areas of hip-hop styles, also different paths, you know, of competition. They said it themselves. They're no, we that's what we were just talking about. We're gonna get fifth or sixth day one. So when we got our scores back, it did not surprise us. That was not we weren't like We were like, this is exactly where we should be. We called it. But you know what the problem is? And this is when you know the system's broken and why I keep saying the system's broken? Why was I able to predict it three weeks before we even performed? No kidding. Yeah. And going from like your Jamfest scores, you were scoring a ninety three, I think it was like ninety three six seven or something like that. And then five point six three. Yeah, and then going into worlds, it's It was an eighty-nine was it? The final score was like an eighty-nine point like eight two or something. Six six points is pretty big and an eight point nine caption is very different from a nine point five caption. They are both very telling in the differences. When you're seeing these captions, which are so different from your jam fest scores, did you talk who did you talk to? What was the approach? Like that's in my opinion, that's a big that's a big Big difference. I've seen even bigger though. I think I've t I think I told you on the phone that I've seen teams scoring early on in January, like in the 95 range, and then exit out of Worlds with an 82. So like it's the transparency in scoring and captions is just it's like unknown sometimes. And mind you, these are both varsity USASF events that I'm talking about. So I want to start there. I was gonna start there. So try the first part is when you're at Worlds trying to speak to someone, it's very hard. They they have their front desk. ⁓ I spoke to I can I say people's names on here? Sure. I don't mind. I just I just wanted I think she was wonderful and I think she deserves her flowers. I think Kinsasha, like she is absolutely wonderful. I love Kinsasha. I love her. She is the queen, yeah. She is besides her customer service, her soul she's a genuine person. And she's about her really quick before I let you go on. I don't know if you remember this happened last year. My entire thing that happened with USASF and all of the debacle. She was the only person to reach out to me and give me advice out of the entire company. And I I adore her so much. So anyways, please continue. Same and that's why I she's the only name I'll mention because I feel like ⁓ She deserves it. She listened to me for seven hours. I went up to that desk. I can't Kyle, like I don't think we met with someone till seven thirty PM. We were done. We got our results around one thirty, one forty five ish. Even that Our results were not emailed to us. We had to we had to physically go. Well, that was a big thing with the whole division. Certain people were getting their scores and certain people weren't getting their scores. ⁓ that's that's like a whole I feel like that's a whole topic. Yeah. But so we that's crazy. So she is ⁓ angel on earth. And if it wasn't for her, I don't believe that we would have been able to sit down with a panel of three directors. ⁓ And it she really pushed for us. ⁓ and I t I was I was ready to sit and have dinner with them. I was like, What do you want? Chipotle? We can you know, that's how long and how many times I went up to that desk. So those women They have a hard job at that forefront, but they were they were wonderful, all of them, ⁓ that were at that front desk, but Kinsasha being the head of that. ⁓ so when we met with them and we, you know, we spoke about the rubric and consistency is it was told to us that varsity and USAF, and they made this very clear, are two separate entities. Now, I always thought it was under the same umbrella, but how it was explained to us is USASF is a nonprofit that they hire varsity to run their events. However, varsity has Nothing to do with USASF's rules, guidelines, rubrics, all that stuff. So that's a little confusing to us because I've been we've been doing this for 10 over 10 years with varsity, and I I didn't really know them to be really honest. Well, how do you also have a pre-qualifying event under varsity to get you prepared for your feedback, etc., to bring you to worlds, but then it doesn't, you're telling me it doesn't matter. So that's where it's like the the interpretation of the rubric and it can be evaluated completely. completely differently than how we arrived to worlds. Like so it it just seems Why have pre-qualifying events then just about everyone in invitation to go. You know, programs spent money, we traveled the choreography, the training, and then you're trying to understand the score system, but you don't really have what they're rewarding at the end of the day. So if the interpretation changes from event to event, then the strategy then becomes impossible and the trust erodes. And I I think that's kind of where we were super super frustrated. ⁓ the judges don't really change though, even though people on the internet were like, the judges ch they don't. I understand that the judging people were saying that I'm ⁓ people were saying the judge world's judges are more qualified than Jamfest judges, which is so insulting to varsity in itself because I actually ⁓ you're not allowed to judge you're not allowed to judge worlds unless you judge a USASF qualifier. So that doesn't make sense to me. Yeah. So that's it's there's a lot that has happened behind the scenes and what's being said, and it's it's unfortunate, but it doesn't make sense and you can't make it make sense. So our routine didn't change from jam fest to world. Now, day one at world, our routine was a little different. We added a little bit more high candy. You know, you're trying to play the formation game. And after we were in Vit or 6, I said, Well, if Jamfest gave us a ninety-five and we're at it at day one, we were at an 88.56 for worlds. I said, let's just go right back to the Jamfest routine. Our day one routine was more difficult. I'm just saying, it was more difficult. Way more difficult than our day we dumbed it down, is basically what we did. So we go back to the exact routine, which you can see A and B on our Instagram, nothing actually changed. Exactly nothing actually changed. Because the trick was the same, the mask was everything was the same. ⁓ so and then being told that like well it it's because it's a harder event. It's it's not. We still have the highest score of the season at that at Jamfest. But what will be told to us is that Jamfest's rubric is not the same rubric as Worlds. Now I'm gonna go a little into the rubric. USASF's rubric for the senior category is the same is the same category as jazz. Why is hip hop being ⁓ compared to jazz? And that's where we question the system being programmed because ISASF, so if people are just listening, they're like lost now. At USA Worlds, you have USASF and ISASF. ISASF is for the international teams, and USASF is for the United States teams. ISASF under their umbrella is the open divisions and now the junior world divisions because junior worlds are allowed to bring in international and the USASF teams are only senior divisions. Why is their rubric different than the USASF rubric, but the judges don't change? Mm-hmm. I agree. It does not make sense. Is best so good. It's like stylistic, musicality, like all these things that would make sense like dancing through transitions. Like it makes more and you know, our our choreographer was actually at Worlds and when we gave him our our day one, he goes, Wait He's like, we don't have this this category. I said, what do you mean? And that's when we all started putting stuff together. And then we were told in a a roundabout way, even though the category says something different, ⁓ it all still means the same. And I said, N no, it doesn't. It doesn't mean the same. You're telling the judges what they should be judging, and that's what they're judging. It's not the judge's fault. And I do want to preface that too. None of this is about the judges. We stuck up from them from the moment we got where we were gonna be like Like three weeks or four worlds, that they're not robots, they're people, and there's no way the judges can physically still and mentally judge the same they did at 9 a.m. versus 12 p.m. No, and I mean creatives in itself. ⁓ you know, they did tell us to ease our worry that there was something they called tracking, that they I guess after the first team goes, that they track it and they're looking. I like no. But even if they are doing that. Is that right? Well let's also let's let's talk about the tracking a little bit because I'm very familiar with tracking and I think if it was used correctly it could be very beneficial. Tracking score tracking is not mandatory for judges. And if you're telling a judge that in five minutes excuse me, they have to pencil write in because tracking's on a pencil and piece of paper, so that way you always have it right next to you versus what you're putting in a computer. In five minutes I have to track and write Down every single score as I'm writing this and put them in my computer, write all of the comments and then hit send. It's not enough time. Now, tracking can be used very well if you know what you're doing. Like I'm gonna hype up Dance Communion for a second, or anyone that does audio critiques. I know stage eight does audio critiques as well. Too if you're doing audio critiques, it's a little easier to track because I'm watching, I'm putting it in as I'm tracking it down. Then all I have to do is transfer it to the computer. I don't have to type a billion words for your description. So score tracking can. Be used very well, but I will tell you this now: a lot of judges don't use them, they don't use them, they're just there. You know why? Because they're not robots. They're human. Robots are human. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like five minutes is not enough time to do all of that work and then place twenty four teams in the correct order. It's too much. Well that would make sense of why our feedback was minimal. Compared to J I mean Jeff as we were getting and I'm not saying it was constructive. Like we were getting suggestions and and we critiques and positivity, but it was like paragraphs at worlds. It almost like they were it was it had to be quick and it was it was not looking for reasons nothing to work with looking for reasons of why they're docking your score instead of saying like listen when you go through that wave make sure you're articulating through the five steps of the wave. You're going fingers, knuckles, wrists, elbow, like shoulder, and then roll out. Like, you know, it's and I don't blame the judges at all. I'm not blaming them at all. And I said that's hard. Yeah. Correct. Correct. Yeah. And I want to add on too because this is where I I don't get me wrong, I love I think the judges that were at USASF and the directors are do their job very well. But I will say there are some highly qualified judges that I know that are out there that I would love to see judge on a USASF panel. But if you have to tell them they have to track, type, comment, all of this in five minutes, they're gonna turn the job down. And they're not gonna want to go through the training to have to do all of that stuff with varsity or USASF. So I feel like the system ⁓ Is a little particular to bring in a certain certain line of judges where it's really eliminating the possibilities that could allow the industry to grow beyond measures. We're behind. We are so behind in years with dance team and USASF and Worlds and all of that. I think that it's a very good way to put it behind, like very stuck in like 20 years. I know it's like you know, it's gonna be their 20th anniversary, I think, next season. Yeah, yep, 2009. ⁓ there ⁓ very stuck and they're it's not progressive enough and they're they have one solution to fix a problem and it's not a solution. And ⁓ you know that's that's that's all I'll say on that because and I'm just talking about hip hop. Hip hop has so much more to it than Transitions and lives. And I think that's the fr and that's why you're saying like there are so many more qualified judges out there, but they won't do it. And they won't do it because it's going to discredit them as an athlete but as an artist. And that's why it was told to us that you guys are so well versed in hip hop that w and these other teams aren't. So we need to find a happy middle ground. And that's when we I like kinda like was like, We're gonna get nowhere. Let's be polite. ⁓ ⁓ Because what they're trying to tell me is they need to find a middle ground so more people come. Because if it's too hip hop heavy, they're not gonna have enough teams and it's gonna make it's gonna discourage people. But then we respectfully said, Well, with all due respect, then you cannot call it hip hop because you're calling it hip hop, and on your website it says the stylistics and the emphasis of the emphasis of different styles. And then when we asked them, she's like, Well, what did your feedback say? And I was Well, they said something about one of our lives. But we have to relax our wrist rolls. Which I actually kind of fine, I agree. So I go, okay. And she goes, So my so we were asking because they would not let us speak to a judge on panel for the hip hop division. Yeah, the hip hop division. So we said, So then what is your suggestion? So I prepare my team for tomorrow, and basically was removing the styles. So then I said, So then you can't call it hip hop if we're removing the styles. Listen, hip hop needs to reward right now, it's rewarding cleanliness. over culture, conformity over authenticity, and safety over risk. And it just feels like beautifully said actually. That was beautifully said. Clog bad. And I just I just feel like sometimes hip hop's just being judged through like a jazz lens. Or It's being judged tr heavy trick based and like you're like death drops and Or it's just masking. Like not there's no emphasis on wow, all fourteen dancers just hit all of those one, two-ying a three and a four. And then instead they're they're applauding the teams that are having moments but not and then there's a dancer just standing in the background. Because if visually do I agree, it does look pretty. But is th the what about the difficulties? But hip hop was built on in Individuality and freestyle and texture and community and depth. And if competition systems are only rewarding the cleanliness, like I said before, and the uniformity, then the risk is like stripping away from some of the very elements that actually hip hop was founded on. And that's why the system's broken and why, like you said, they're behind. Yeah, yeah. and a lot of the conversation that we were just talking that was happening during that, after that seven hour wait, and you got to sit down with those redirectors. That was happening around that time, right? What has there been out of curiosity, has there been any outreach afterwards or have they tried to smooth things over, talk to you guys? Like what has happened because No, I mean, ⁓ someone from Vars actually two people from varsity, like head people reached out to us just saying we're they're so sorry this happened and ⁓ I'll just leave it at that. They were very apologetic and understand our underst understand our frustration. But from those panel of people we met with and USASF, we have heard nothing. The the most that we heard was the judge that went on the internet and decided to slander Yeah. Let's get into that. Let's get into that because that that threw me for a loop. And I I will say this I I am someone who speaks my mind very openly about routines. I'm well aware that you're not gonna catch me on a panel for that exact reason. I feel like there Is a a separation that needs to happen and a little bit different respect when you're a judge and then you're someone like me, a content creator or a podcaster, right? That post was beyond me. Calling you guys sore losers was beyond me. Yeah, which is me. I mean, and I I also want to say, like, I I apologize to you guys, but also your kids. I can't imagine my athletes having to read something like that and know. That person was on the panel. So first off, sorry that happened to you guys. Well thank you. Thank you. And I just want to make it clear she wasn't on she didn't judge our routine and she didn't make that clear. She went back to watch our routine though. After I guess things were happening. I don't know if it was at Worlds or After Worlds. I don't know if that makes them slurry in my head. It kind of makes it a little worse a little worse. Then that's that's the issue. Thank you. And that's why system's broken. Like I'm just gonna I feel like just like I should try system broken on my head. Like you Yeah, thank you. ⁓ I do wanna start by saying this was sent to us from another team who was so supportive to us, but they were so defeated on their in their own right and their owners are so good at hip hop. Like when I say like I mean I'm not gonna name who they danced with, but like your mouth would drop. Like they are teaching their kids the culture in the foundation. They're from West Coast and they sent it to me and they said, Hey, I'm just giving you a heads up and it was sent to them by someone that basically applauded this judge's post. And to me, I was like, see, this is where the community is wrong. Because when you when you do this to one, it should rally all. Yeah. And that's why it's broken. So while we were publicly defending these judges, a judge that wasn't even on our panel made a public statement online about us without tagging us. So how can studios actually feel s safe? Okay, that's the first thing. Because that's what USASF and Varsity's all about, like feeling safe. And how can we feel safe having a respectful conversation? If professionals that are tied to the organization are publicly read real ridiculing our concerns, but also kids. Like you called my kids sore losers. You called me a sore loser. And I I just also I would like to say in the original post that we even created, nowhere did we talk about other teams. Nowhere did we talk about the judges. We are talking about the system. We're friends with all the other teams. And most of them, yeah, most of them that we know. You know, I like you said before, the top three. I applaud it to them. They're great programs. The frustrating part for us is that we wanted to be near them. That's it. Not near them ⁓ in winning. Near them in competing. I would go to worlds and compete against the best. If you're telling me that's the best, then put me up against them. Put me back to back with them. I've been cheering them on all season. ⁓ you know, in ⁓ publicly and privately. So I think that was the frustrating point from that judge is making it sound like we're like during a tantrum, and not once did we At the end of the day, I said too in my post that like you take this oath that you speak about and they make it like it's so like like you're becoming the president of the United States, but then here you are online bashing a team something that's ⁓ supposed to be for privacy. For speaking our minds. And then she took out the sore loser thing. I think once people started kind of like chiming in. ⁓ I commented on there. I said sore loser question mark. It's just rude. I think it was her cloud. I agree. I will say too, what bothers me about it is that, I mean, let me ask this first. Did you have any private conversations with this judge? No. That's the issue to me. So she's seeing your post, seeing what you're what you're saying, but yet there's nothing of her reaching out and being like, hey, what was going on? Let's talk about it. Let me try and offer some feedback or I could bring this to my executives or whatever it is. It was just, I'm gonna read this and I'm gonna make one assumption. And there was zero conversation to actually understand you guys. And that's where I struggle with the transparency part. Like there has to be some kind of transparency there. You're being very transparent online, and then she's sharing her response, which is not really prompted online, having no conversation. And that's that's where I struggled the most with the post, is like you're not even trying to understand them. And this is an area where everyone sees that we are weak in this industry. And you are a leader in that area, and you're refusing to see the side of the people that really need that help. And that's where I struggle with. And you know, going off of that, I mean you she shouldn't message us privately, but you shouldn't then just tag us. I also agree. Like if you're gonna talk about me, at least talk about me. Just talk just tell me then. Like invite me to the party. Invite me to the conversation at the end of the day. And I think you know, there was a judge that reached out to us and did exactly what you said. Wanted the full gave us their feedback, watched our routine. Not that I asked this judge to gave us feedback and then I said, Hey, listen, I appreciate your feedback, but you don't know the whole story here, so I'm gonna give you some context. I gave the the contents and immediately the response was, ⁓ my god, no one should have been talking to you besides a hip hop panel judge, and then this is the one that said about like you're doing something so impactful, keep doing what it feels impossible, the culture's so much more important. Because how do you say to us as the directors, like, ⁓ yes, hip hop is made of different f ⁓ styles and foundations, but not everyone can do it like you guys, so we have to find a happy marriage. You should have never said that to us. The other thing in that that social media post was there's a comment I'm gonna assume from a a director. I don't know this person, and basically saying that she felt she respected our always respected our program. I guess she doesn't anymore because I opens my mouth. ⁓ and then she said she felt bad from all those poor kids. I feel so bad for them. I saw that. I want to be very, very, very clear on this podcast. My kids are the ones questioning. My kids are the ones that want answers. We come from the place that we want to know how do we get better. Every loss is a reason for us on how to get better. But when I don't have an answer, I should be able to go to someone that's above me and ask for that answer to provide guidance to the children we're all trying to educate. Otherwise, this is just. An elaborate party that gives globes and medals. That's what it that's what you're telling me. No educational purpose than we're getting out of it. So by my kids asking questions, they're wrong. No, no. These kids deserve to ask questions. So don't feel bad for my kids. My kids are the ones seeing this. Lastly, I had a few members on my team say to me after all this happened, and we reflected and they said, you know, the more and more I think about it, I feel like I couldn't authentically be myself as a dancer and put Push out of my box when I'm on the world stage because I'm so worried about being clean and hitting a score, a score ⁓ sheet, hitting a line, hitting a column, making sure my box is perfect and I don't have a groove to it. I feel like I hold myself back on the world stage. And I'm not dancing to my fullest potential. And that broke broke us. It broke us. And I was like, because I never want that to happen. And these are kids that not only want to dance collegiate paths etc. They just want to push themselves to the Best and highest standard. If you're telling me that worlds is supposed to be the biggest and highest standard, to have an athlete say to you, like, I have to hold back, like I have to dumb myself down so that way I'm not out of the picture or my full outness isn't recognized as being sloppy. That is a huge problem. It's a red flag. It's a huge problem. It is, but then what that what that happens is that I mean what happens is then it bleeds into studio culture. So then the studio culture is I'm not teaching textures, I'm not. Teaching weight changes, I'm just teaching you to be clean. And what where I struggle with that is then what happens after you're done at the studio? You try and go to commercial, and then all of a sudden you don't know how to move your body appropriately, you don't know textures, you might know how to be clean, but that's not what a director is always gonna look for. You have to have some kind of what you just said, individuality, and if you're just being taught how to look like everyone else that hits that stage, how are we growing our industry? And just going off of that, because I want people To understand this as well, too, about our how our studio runs. My ⁓ I'll use Team Assassins, my my my world's team. They train a minimum. Their minimum that's mandatory is 10 and a half hours a week. Okay, some of the light dancers though are training 16 and a half hours. Now, these are the classes that they take. They take ballet, jazz, hip-hop, hip-hop. Acro leaps and turns, turns only. ⁓ then they have a few rehearsals mixed into that. They have a hip hop progressions class. So you know how you have a leaps and turns class like kicks, turns? We do that for hip hop too, where we teach the progressions. We teach weights, freestyling, go across the floor. ⁓ Rocks, like think very like Stizy, like how like they have like those warm-up classes. We teach them that in their hip hop progressions class. They have a workout class, they have a senior strengthening class. So like my kids aren't just coming in just doing their routine, routine, routine. That's that's not for what you just said. Because at some point we have to ask, is competitive dance rewarding artistry or are we rewarding manageability? There needs to be kidding. You know what I'm saying? So who are we that some this This kid who's been holding herself back, now she's like, I don't even know if I know I mean she does, but I'm just saying for yourself. I don't even know if I know how to wave because I've been doing my wave so clean that I look like a robot doing it. Or I think where we're from too. Like we are 10 minutes out of Manhattan. So we are in a huge hip hop dance crew scene. And we've been pushing so much for other studios to start to do All-Star. We're like, no, no, no, the environment's so great, it's so athletic. But I can't blame them or fault them. When they turn around to, you know, our kids are like, I'm not doing that, it's cheer dance. Like, and here we are trying to be a little bit, I'm gonna say, different at USASF World and putting styles, putting textures, but then it's not even being not rewarded, but just not even appreciated because we don't need to, you know, like it's it's coming home, it's a very hard thing to try to navigate because it's like you have to split yourselves into two: the all-star version and the hip-hop version, and that's just not really. It's just also not fair to the hip hop culture. Stop calling it hip hop then. If that's not what you want. Yeah. And I would say the general public also agrees. I feel like every season I see comments that are like, this isn't hip hop, this isn't hip hop, this isn't hip hop. And it's unfortunate because we're just in a system where we're not able to break out and actually train true authentic styles. We're stuck in that box, and it's it's very troubling. What's what's your guys' Plans for next season? What are you guys gonna do? I mean, I know when we talked, you're like after we post this, we can't go back. Has that changed yet? ⁓ you know, I don't Think it's so much like we can't go back, and I'm gonna clarify: it's not that in the week of frustration of worlds, you know, in the two-way, it's not that we can't go back because we didn't place top five, it's that we were frustrated because in our head, leaving day one for us, we're like, okay, we're fifth. Tomorrow we're gonna get to go back to back, and then we come to find out we're not back to back. It's 10th place, two palm teams, ninth place, two palm teams, but then it gets to four to one, they're back to back. Why? Yeah, like the system is so. broken. You know, so I think for us we looked at each other and we're like, how do you just keep on jumping in the fire? I think another conversation we kinda had about it is I want our kids to gain education from experiences that are gonna cost them money, time, travel, and I want to invest in companies That are giving something back that we can take home. So what we actually want to happen for worlds or for any competition that you know we we look at is we want a better division structure. ⁓ there should be a seated order and a split division or tighter windows, more rubric transparency, clearer scoring explanations, educational breakdowns, and more accountability, ⁓ and greater hip hop special specialization. ⁓ you know, judges that you have access. To there's access to so many, and not saying that these were bad, but just deeper. I want deeper. Or studying other programs, you know, for instance, like hip hop international. Why is HHI so successful? Look at their rubric where they're making teams do properly, I'm gonna asterisk properly, three to four styles before even you know hitting a certain process. And a lot a lot of people will say, Well, they should just go to hip hop international. Well, we've been asked for five We've been asked that we've been choosing it down. We've been choosing worlds because we've invested in a company. And when you are an owner of a company, when you start to make an investment, you want to see it through. You're invested in it. So it's not so easy just to jump ship when something doesn't go your way or it's hard. You know, we've had hard gears at worlds. So it's not about it being hard. It's just the system was breaking down. And there is so much more that has been broken from other coaches. It's not my story to tell and the things that my mouth has dropped. I know that you spoke to a few, but I think what It's lacking is open communication. Studios shouldn't feel punished for asking respectful questions at the ends of the day. Or, you know, I'll share this, and and it happened to us in jazz, and it is so frustrating. So day one of jazz, we go, we're so excited. First time ever in the jazz division. So we're just happy to be at the party. ⁓ we scored, and rightfully so, in the low 80s for the majority, and I agree. We get one score sheet that was a 91 without any critique. Critiques. So so when it was questioned, it was just like, ⁓ it was a mistake. It should be in your emails right now. To this day, we still don't have any comments or that score sheet. But then on semifinals, ⁓ we got the scores that we should have. We didn't make it to finals, but it was all in the same realm. It was, I believe, what we call it a performance pusher. They want to see you bump. And what the sad thing is we got bumped up from a team. Like we took a spot from someone that should have been there. It shouldn't have been us in semifinals. And I'm sorry to my kids watching this. You I'm I'm on honest person ⁓ but it shouldn't have been us though our scores that ninety one was just dropped in there it was just dropped in there with no explanation adjustment there you go if it's happening in jazz it's happening across the board like how do you keep supporting that so I agree ⁓ I agree yeah so I mean I just wanna you know You know, we love this industry enough to want it see it do better. ⁓ and I don't think that us two people and you, I I don't know if we can make a big enough change in it. ⁓ I if I was USAF I would have reached out to us by now. ⁓ but also I hope that they do watch this and they do gain some type of knowledge from it. ⁓ because everyone's feeling it. UDA is feeling it, ⁓ Worlds Now is feeling it. It's just a cycle and And it's getting harder than In that like standard in that bracket, also to having head judges, which I understand the purpose of it, but to have basically head judges kind of telling your judging panel which way to score, et cetera. Uh-huh. You know, one of my colleagues years ago, ⁓ I used to dance with him ⁓ in Manhattan when I first started college. He was once a USASF judge, and he actually ended up having to step down and quit. And it's this You just didn't like how like it was formulated. On the panel, and it just didn't fit well with his soul on what was happening and being told how to score. Yeah. Exactly. And it's I think it's very troubling for a judge who has this expertise to be told, just follow my lead. When that's just putting you on a box as a judge. You're not able to share your opinions. So that's probably why you're getting very minimal feedback on your score sheets. And just to expand on that a little bit more, so the head judges say, say I'm a head judge going in. I'm going to score a caption a nine point two. That means Ashley and Courtney can only go two, three points above or two, three points below. So you can't really see that. But then it's troubling when things like the placement adjustment happens, when all your scores are probably in that same range, eighty, eighty two, eighty four. Then all of a sudden there's a nine point one. It's like, what is going on here? So I agree. I the head judge that yeah. Go ahead. They'll back it and say in their rules that they're allowed a ten point ⁓ so like if you got an eighty one, you're allowed to go up to a ninety one. But then why the next day did I not get around that ninety one, that ninety one dropped to an eighty five? Like 'Cause someone made a mistake. Or right. That's what happens. Someone made a mistake and that's okay because everyone is human, but how do we fix it? Yeah. Yes. So exactly. We just you know, you know, we just wanna see a change happen and we're hoping to find, you know, some type of clarity and I don't I just don't know if it's ever gonna come. ⁓ unless enough people make a change. I'll you know, and I like I've said I've had t over ten studios and gym owners reach out to me and they're all like, Where are you guys going next year? Where are you guys going? We're gonna go wherever you guys go. And I'm like, I I didn't want this. Like I I didn't want this. I just I'm speaking up on just like what happened to us and what doesn't sit right with me. But it's just sad that so many of them are like, I'm so sorry, I can't comment 'cause I don't want my studio to be blacklisted. Awful. And it just shouldn't be like that. And I get it, you Could look at it as s we're super ranty and sore loser or whatever no, we're just New Jersey. No, it's not even that we're just New Jersey. We're just New Jersey. This girl, I can't. It is no, we're just on it. And it's it it has if your kids aren't walking away, and this goes for anybody watching this, if they're not walking away from an experience with something, an educational reason or ⁓ just something that's gonna get them better, then you need to question why are you still investing? I agree. Yeah. And that that part is So very true, the blacklisting part. I mean, I told you about my experience this season and what happened, and it's it's just very true. And people are scared to speak out. And the amount of DMs and emails I get of just people wanting to just vent because they can't talk online. They can't say something online. They just want to get it out and like tell you. It it is very troubling. And I I hope that there is some kind of change. I mean, USASF Worlds is one of the events that made me fall in love with dance team. So it's like it this is Like the past few years it has been a little bit more troubling for me to want to jump on the bandwagon and support 100% just because some of the things that we've been seeing in you know people sharing concerns behind the scenes with directors and people who can make decisions and no change yet. So I applaud you guys for wanting to speak out because this is how we push change. And I know us three are going to change the industry ourselves, but if we could at least be a little puzzle piece in the mix, then I'm happy that we're contributing somehow. So I appreciate you both. for coming on and sharing and being open and honest with your guys' story. Well thank you and we appreciate you so much and even after worlds reaching out and ⁓ just checking in and you know just being a listening ear but having us on to speak about this. I know you have a few great podcasts coming up and I'm excited to really watch them and tune in. ⁓ but no we ⁓ we appreciate you so much and ⁓ we just we hope that this this Falls on listening ears, not on deaf ears. All right, you guys. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Courtney and Ashley from the Source Dance Lab. Again, thank you for coming on the show and being so open and honest and just vulnerable about your experience. I know speaking out about conflicts you have with some organizations can be very challenging. Listen, this is coming from someone who was blacklisted from an event this year because I spoke out about About a blind item that was sent my way, which was not false and allegedly, and now I'm blacklisted from set event. And maybe one day I'll be able to talk about it, but not now. Anyways, ⁓ we were able to drop the news about SFA competing at both NDA and UDA nationals this season, which is major if you ask me. I feel like these college teams need more freedom to compete wherever they want. Like, who cares if you have the same athletes that just won UDA? Let them go to NDA. Now I know those rules don't apply for like DTU College Classic. Like a team, for example, University of Oregon. They go and compete at UDA and then they go to the College Classic in April. And I love that format. I just want more teams to have more freedom in competing. And I feel like there's more conversations that need to be had about UDA. We'll we'll we'll get there at a different time. But anyways, the rules and regulation. What ⁓ well back it up, Kyle. What I was about to say is I love this. I feel like I applied pressure. I love that. I feel like I applied pressure. Okay. We dropped the news that SFA, we were the first ones to drop the news that SFA is going to be competing at both. And in my article, I did say that the roles were not posted yet for UDA. So at any time the rules could change and say You just alone cannot compete at UDA and NDA. Now, the rules in the past have been your program can essentially compete at both. Now, what that means is you are not able to take these same athletes to both competitions. So you could take your athletes to UDA and say you have 18 on the floor or 20 20 something on the roster, I believe TJ told me 24. But that same 24 cannot be on the NDA roster. So a program like SFA that has, I think TJ said 48. We're gonna hear an interview here shortly because we did get TJ Maple on the show. He's gonna talk a little bit about the developments that are going on in his season. The same athletes cannot compete at both competitions. I think that's whack. Let teams compete. Stop being a monopoly in controlling what teams can do. But that's just my own opinion. Anyway, so the rules drop today. This is what Wednesday, May 27th, about teams competing at both national. Well, not teams. That's not what the rules dropped today, but the rules dropped today. And so I want to see if anything has changed yet with the role. So let's find it. Here it is. ⁓ no changes. So teams can compete at another event promoted as a national or international championship. Exception. ICU cheerleading dance or ICU World Cheerleading Championships, World University Cheerleading Championships. For the 2025, 2026 school I think you mean 2026, 2027 school year. Whatever. Anyways, the school can compete at UCA and NCA if a team is recognized as a separate team by the school and no athletes are the same. No athletes can compete at both events. Now, okay. First of all, there it's not UCA or NCA, it's UDA and NDA. So even though that's not even in there, I wonder if it just doesn't matter at all. 'Cause technically you're not breaking the rules because you're not competing at NCA or UCA. You'd be NDA and UDA, but whatever. ⁓ anyway, so no rules have changed, so all that's gonna be the same. SFA will be competing at both this year. Let's take a listen to this interview I had with TJ Maple talking a little bit more about SFA and the plans for this upcoming season. DTU has officially launched their annual Road to Nationals contest to provide an opportunity to earn funding towards your nationals experience. DTU's motto, we're here for you, continues their commitment to supporting teams. This is the first of many opportunities DTU has set in place to make your nationals journey smoother in the DTU for you initiative. So check out how you can enter by visiting Dance TeamUnion.com. Are you worried about rules changing at all? I mean, we're technically we're not breaking any rules. ⁓ you know, our team is ⁓ we have a roster of forty eight dancers and we've split them at tryouts into a UDA team of twenty four and an NDA team of twenty four. So they the only thing they're doing together during the season is football and then our show at the end of the year. ⁓ The way that we have it split up is NDA team will st will take the first leg of basketball season while UDA is in competition mode. And then whenever we come back from UDA, UDA will take on basketball through postseason while NDA is in competition mode. So a unique situation here at SFA is the dance team does all basketball. So we are responsible for home football games and all basketball and basketball postseason. So ⁓ That started last year. And so last year was the first time doing all four routines at NDA with postseason and everything else. And so that's why we were like, all right, it we gotta figure out something to where we could give every dancer the the best opportunity and the best experience ⁓ to compete. But as far as rules changing, I mean I've talked to to both NDA, I've talked to to varsity, I've talked to UDA in the past. Like this isn't something brand new for us. ⁓ we've been trying to do this since twenty one twenty two season. so 'cause we hold a roster of most of the time forty five plus stancers. Yeah, I was gonna say you've always had a big program like that for as long as I can remember. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's crazy. Yeah. ⁓ a team that's that started whenever I got here, I could pick fifteen. That was what I was told. And then now I've got three times that amount. So Yeah. I love that. ⁓ what makes up of a NDA athlete versus like a UDA athlete? Like you said, you switched both of them, so what how do you pick which team go who goes to We had some consultants come in to try outs that know the UDA style. and so they were very ⁓ influential in helping me ⁓ decide where people needed to be. Obviously, ⁓ you know, this isn't an A team B team type situation. We don't for sure you know, our team is ⁓ you know, the best version of ourselves is possible at all times. And so this is how quickly can we get these athletes ready for UDA versus who are the ones that need a little bit more time. and and that time is allowed for NDA. So not cutting any, you know, anyone short. We still have unfinished business at NDA. So like this isn't a a a case of we're putting all of our good dancers on one and and everyone else to the other. That's not it at all. We've just split ⁓ based on what their strengths are. We're not doing the same styles across ⁓ each competition. And so, you know, that's kind of different as well. ⁓ so yeah, I mean it's it's looking at who is ready now versus who needs more time and looking at their strengths. Who is who are the movers, ⁓ and the groovers and you know, for hip hop and who are the tricksters and the technicians because as we all know, you know, the UDA score sheet versus the NDA score sheet, technique isn't isn't valued the same. Yep. And so our technical skills rather. So I think taking all that into account is where we kind of drew the lines and unlike years before where we've said we're starting with this big number and we're going to let you know in the season, we did everything in the tryout weekend from the get go. So they knew what team they were being placed on and they're kind of there for the fruition of the of the year. So Yeah. That's incredible. I like that. I like that. outline that you have. Do you ⁓ do you know which because you said you're I imagine you're not gonna do all four routines at NDA this year. No that won't even be possible. Yeah, no. ⁓ yeah so at UDA we're ⁓ going to compete jazz and palm. Very nice. I f I I had a I had a feeling. Yep. Yeah and at NDA hip hop at NDA? No, we're actually gonna do jazz and hip hop at NDA. So I wasn't like Yeah. So a little bit of history. We we have actually four titles from NDA hip hop from ⁓ twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen. And, you know, when the music rule changed, that provoked a whole challenge. ⁓ and so we're just now getting to the point where we've tattered with hip hop here and there and we've gone from you know, going back into the division after years of being gone to fifth place. And then this year we got fourth. And we have our our hip hop choreographer is Brennna ⁓ Hunter. And ⁓ I I you know, I think she goes by another name, but anyway, I know her as Brennan Hunter. so Brennan, she danced on Memphis. She is so invested in us and I couldn't we couldn't let that go. So like she wants to help get us, you know, hopefully back on top one day. And so You know, she's coming in. We're gonna stay with hip hop and try to get back in, you know, our goal is in the top three. You know, we came in after being out of it for a couple of years again and ⁓ place fourth this year. And then and then just we won our first NDA jazz title this year, so we're not I'm not ready to let that go. ⁓ and you're not historically we have the most talented team that I've ever had in my you know, this is my twenty second season. And so I think that we'll we'll be primed to be able to to handle our business in in both, you know, ⁓ to be successful. You know, our goal is never honestly focusing on that win. It's focusing on the wins every day and challenging them to be the best version of themselves, ⁓ both holistically and ⁓ from a dancing standpoint. Yeah. Do you feel like do you think you're about to set off a trend? Do you think we'll see more teams floating this week? I mean, I really hope so. I you know I I why not? You know, I until or if we ever go completely one big competition, why not? If if you've got the numbers and you've got the the backing from your university and ⁓ whatever department you fall in, we're in athletics and we are very, you know, blessed to have the support that we have here. ⁓ after a long time, it hasn't always been that way. you know, we've persevered through a lot being in student affairs to moving to athletics to now what they're wanting us to do and and supporting us to do. I hope it makes a trend. I I mean ⁓ you know it's why not? I mean that's my mindset is if we're not breaking any rules, which we are not, they are going to be clearly two defined teams. ⁓ I saw a comment today on on the the page saying, well how are the how is varsity gonna make sure that they don't cross over well we have video proof of who's competing. So this isn't you know two thousand and five You have to like go you have to go through a whole registration process. You're putting in the athlete's name, like or I mean what's the difference in what's the difference in this versus me competing four routines at NDA and not being able to cross over dancers more than two routines? I mean, clearly we're gonna follow everything that we need to. And ⁓ you know, I'm not w I'm not a rule breaker. So, I mean, if something is clearly there, I'm not going to to break it. I I think this is a weird workaround, but we're still not breaking any of the rules. You know? Yeah. The only the only difference in a club team versus an official team is we're coaching both. So it's the same coaching staff versus having a total separate non funded, non everything team to a team that's maybe funded by the university. So Yeah. No kidding. How many assistants do you have helping you? on the team. I have ⁓ currently I have one associate head coach. So I don't call her an assistant. she is just as equal as me. ⁓ yeah. I ⁓ you know every other sport has it so why not? Why not us? And you know she comes with a lot of experience. She's coached at many universities and started a lot of programs and and colleges and so ⁓ finding someone outside of the program was ⁓ although may not have been the first choice sometimes. ⁓ it has definitely been been a great thing so far. And she's about to f finish her first year with me. So she's come in and started rocking and rolling from day one. So Yeah. Congrats associate. ⁓ all right, so what for your university, what what does competing at both of these stages mean? Well also not just your university, but what does this mean for the dance industry alone? Because like we were just saying, like this could be a trend. So like is this like really setting a standard? You know I I don't know. I don't know how to answer that, quite honestly. We're doing it from a standpoint of what we need to do for us. ⁓ will it set a standard? Will it set a trend? Maybe. I'm not out here trying to be different so that I set a trend. I I live every day like I'm gonna live it regardless. And you know, it's never been about trying to do something different for attention. I'm quite honestly, I'm not I'm the least attention raving person that I probably know. I I don't like crowds. I don't like, you know, getting up and talking in front of a big crowd. that's just not in my my nature. I do it when I have to, but you know, will it set a trend? Possibly. ⁓ will it bring a lot of attention? It it is. It's going to because it's never been done. ⁓ but there were lots of things before this that had never been done. So you know, teams that have crossed over and, you know, gone from one to the other, b in both directions. And so, you know, I I don't know that I am really doing I'm not really doing this to be a trendsetter. I'm doing what's best for us ⁓ and for my team because at the end of the day, my only focus is the SFA dance team and and our university. you know Our athletic department is very innovative. ⁓ they our whole school is ⁓ you know, our president is really innovative and supportive. You know, we're probably the only school that our president has actually come to Daytona the the past two years. ⁓ wow. ⁓ to watch. And so that kind of support is unique. And so we find ourselves in this unique position where we're able to do more than the normal ⁓ run of the mill team ⁓ in a lot of ways. ⁓ our numbers, what we do, you know, you better bet that our game day is gonna be on point still. You're gonna better bet that we're gonna support the other athletic teams, but then we're gonna give every opportunity w we can to increase this world of of the dance team industry and through our athletes having as much opportunity as possible. Yeah, and you'll be D one, right? D one, yeah. All right. Are you ready? Well Yeah, there's some powerhouses there. And I'm ready might not be the word, but excited. I I think that you know, I I think that when we stop growing as a team, then you start dying, right? So ⁓ I I don't want I want to keep the growth and keep challenging us to get better. ⁓ trust me, I'm I'm I'm dying my I's and my I'm crossing my T's. ⁓ I'm not a a ⁓ stranger to competition. I might be a stranger to this particular competition, but we're not a stranger to the work that we put in to prepare. So I don't know if nervous is the word or but excited. I I'm excited to to try something new and different and ⁓ you know grow and continue to evolve. I think yeah that's the thing that's the place that I don't want to ever get complacent in. is our growth and our evolving ⁓ as a team. Yeah. And I assume you're gonna be choreographing Palm, right? I am, but I'm collaborating with someone and I'm not gonna I at least not ask any other questions. But yeah, we're ⁓ we're gonna do it together. And so Wow Let's just say I'm dotting my I's and crossing my T's. Absolutely. Okay, so what what should we expect when we see you hit the UDA stage? You should expect athleticism. ⁓ You should expect crisp, sharp, strong movement. I'd like to think that we're gonna bring a little bit of a one A feel to the D one division. I love that. In the Palm Division. ⁓ in jazz we have found our identity, so keeping, you know, true to ourselves while quickly moving over to another score sheet and style of competition. you know, we're gonna We're gonna do what we do best and be memorable that way. So absolutely. Yeah. I'm not gonna take so much more of your time. I have one question, one final question for you. Okay. ⁓ when this season finishes and you look back and you reflect on the season, what do you want to think and say about your team? I want to think you know how courageous we were to try something unique and different and hopefully. the success comes ⁓ in more than one way. you know, we value success by the little wins every day and and doing this is gonna help prepare them in so many more ways of their life. so that's what I hope. I hope that we'll view ourselves as courageous and and hopefully victorious to some degree as well. Absolutely. All right, you guys, I hope you enjoyed that interview with the TJ Maple of SFA. I cannot wait to see what they do this season. All right, you guys, to finish off the show here, I want to share with you my top 10 routines from this season. I seen these routines either in person or on social media, ⁓ watching live streams, whatever it is, and some routines that I just still think about till this day, and I just appreciate what they brought to the dance team world. I feel like each of these routines have really shaped the divisions that they competed at. and the industry and circuits that they touch. So ⁓ here we go. Top ten routines in tenth place. We have University of South Alabama jazz. Ninth place LSU Hip Hop. Specifically finals day, because I feel like their finals performance was way better than their ⁓ first round ⁓ performance. So finals top tier. ⁓ Minnesota Palm. Love Minnesota this year. I just appreciate Minnesota breaking like standards. Like not breaking standards, but like reaching standards and their competitive sets. Like Palm, especially, you don't see anyone that has a routine like Minnesota, but a lot of these routines. And Palm specifically look the same, but Minnesota just comes out and it's just so different. And I love it. All right. West Virginia Palm. Listen, this intro, the WVU intro, I think about every single day. There is not a night I'm laying my head to rest and I don't think about that WVU intro. Just insane. ⁓ we have Pasco hip-hop. I just love a small hip-hop team that just could come out and dominate and like set standards. Like S this small hip-hop team can make large hip-hop teams shaking their boots. You know what I mean? ⁓ we have Dakota Palm in number five. Dakota is one of those teams that I just feel like constantly, constantly raises the bar every single year. And what they bring to the national stage is so different, but still stays so traditional to Palm. ⁓ Team USA POM, also Texas Tech. Now, specifically the team USA routine, I feel like that routine. If they took that routine to UDA, I think they probably would have won, to be quite honest with you. It was just top tier. No flaws. All right, my top three in third place. University of Louisiana. This hip-hop routine is just insane. Like, if I I don't know if it was just because I got to witness it in person, but top tier hip hop routine. I just loved it. It was so good. I think about that routine every single day. We have GVSU jazz, another Dominant routine. And then in first place, we have Westmore open routine. I have talked about this routine on the podcast several times. Several times I have talked about this routine because I really think it made a statement at Dance Team Union Nationals. There was like no team turn sets. It was so much, it was so solely focused on. Building this is gonna sound funny because they dance with a picture frame, but they were building the picture for us. And it it just led us through a story that you don't see a lot on dance team stages. So it's one of those routines that I think I'm gonna talk about for years and years and years to come. All right, you guys, listen. We this coming month of June, the episodes that we have available and coming to you are and three of them are already done. No, no, no, two of them are already done. Our tr our Travis Lake interview, which drops next week. Travis Lake is just an icon to the dance world. Like icon from Minnesota to BYU to Dance Mania. I think I even saw on Instagram that he picked up a ⁓ a team this year, which I'm very excited about. We talk about it a little bit if if this is true, if I read it correctly. In our interview, we talk a little bit about it and him I asked him if he really wanted to get back into dance team, like back to choreographing and back to working and Simply put, his answer was yes if the opportunity allowed for it. And it looks like that opportunity came. So if it's true, I'm excited to see some more Travis Lake ⁓ work in the future. ⁓ that's gonna be next week. And then June 11th, we have Aaron Alvarado with Texas Tech. Such an insightful interview. We go through the ICU process. We talk about Texas Tech. We talk about UDA nationals. ⁓ I think we even talk a little bit about next season as well, too. So if you're a Texas Tech fan or if you love the routine this year, definitely stop by. That interview. It's a fun one. And I'm just very happy that I got to sit down with a leader who's who's changing it all and just talk and chat. All right. And then June 18th, we have Ramona and Shan, two that were on our Palm Judges episode ⁓ last year, almost a year ago, I think so. ⁓ or no, close to a year ago. They come on, they're coming on the podcast and we're gonna talk all things palm. ⁓ now that that is not an interview that we have done yet. That's gonna be coming actually here this weekend. So this is Thursday, we're gonna be doing on Sunday. So If there's something that you're interested to know about POM or something that just you that troubled you this year with POM, send me a DM or send us a contact us on our website and let me know because I would love to include what the community wants to know about POM scoring and judging and just all things. And then June 25th, the last episode of the June month, is gonna be another blind item episode. Now, this one we're gonna get a little spicy because I read, or not read, but I listened to some of the voicemails and A lot of spicy conversations. I have to get some ⁓ approved to make sure that we're able to talk about them. But that's gonna be an episode that I'm very excited to do as well, too. Cause we're also gonna be talking about IDL Sydney. So the predictions that I had ⁓ in this episode, I'm gonna look back and see where they lied on the ⁓ on the actual charts. So very excited for that. And then I'm gonna give updated predictions for the soul event. Cause I hope I'm pretty sure by then, by the time I record. the lineup for soul will be out. So that's it for that's it for you guys. I hope you guys enjoyed this long episode. If you hung out all the way through and you are here, thank you so much. I appreciate you. This past year of podcasting has been very transformative for me. I went from being just a dance team reaction channel on TikTok or YouTube and and then I went to actually finding my voice and using my voice and And hopefully starting conversations and continuing conversations. And I hope I'm just doing right by this industry. And so I just thank everyone who has stuck along for the ride. If you've been here since day one of me yelling at my phone and screen ⁓ for dance teams, or if you started when No Counts Given came, or if this is your first episode of No Counts Given, I just appreciate you for giving me a chance. That's all I could possibly say. Thank you for changing my life every single day. Thank you. Alright everyone, have a great rest of your Thursday. I look forward to seeing you guys next week for another episode of the No Counts Given podcast. Bye everyone. ⁓
OM DENNE EPISODE
Thank you for supporting No Counts Given this past year. I appreciate every single one of you that tune in weekly. I hope you enjoy this 2 hour ONE YEAR B-DAY episode.
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Today on the show, I’m breaking down IDL Sydney and sharing my overall predictions for how this series stop could play out.
We’re also diving into a few Blind Items, including some advice submissions that definitely need to be unpacked. Then, I’m sitting down with Ashley and Courtney Frato of The Source Dance Lab for an honest conversation about transparency and the ongoing questions surrounding USASF Dance Worlds.
Later in the episode, T.J. Maple from Stephen F. Austin State University joins us to talk about major developments in SFA’s season, including their decision to attend both UDA College Nationals and NDA College Nationals.
To close out the show, I’m sharing my Top 10 routines from the 2025-2026 season.
Chapters:
00:00 Intro: We Have A Packed Show
06:59 Ad: The Rankings by Dance Team Union
08:00 IDL Sydney Breakdown & My Official Predictions
19:45 Blind Items: Advice, Drama & Real Talk
37:09 DTU Ad: Hear It From The Coaches
39:47 The Source Dance Lab Speaks Out on USASF Transparency
1:41:26 Breaking Down SFA’s Move To Both UDA & NDA Nationals
1:45:51 Ad: Road To Nationals by Dance Team Union
1:46:24 T.J. Maple Talks SFA Doubling Down This Season
2:00:36 My Top 10 Routines From The 2025-2026 Season
2:04:04 June Schedule, Final Thoughts & Outro
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