PJ Oubre: there's always been stories about the heroes who boldly travel the galaxy, engaging in daring adventures, tense diplomacy, and discovering new phenomena. Captains, scientists, explorers, engineers. But if you ever stop to wonder who keeps those missions running? Who delivers the supplies to the edge of the galaxy? Who braves the asteroid fields with cargo instead of cannons? Who answers the call when every jump through hyperspace could mean adventure or disaster? Maybe the real heroes of space aren't commanding starships at all. Maybe they're just trying to make their deliveries on time. And did I mention their dogs? Well, that's what today's episode is all about. Welcome to episode 185 of Meeple to Meeple. Today my guest is Nova Steinmetz, the designer of Space Dogs, an upcoming game that blends humor, strategy, a healthy dose of cosmic chaos into an adventure that's as charming as it is exciting. We're gonna dive into the inspiration behind the game, the design journey, and what it takes to create a universe where our four-legged friends Become the galaxy's most dependable heroes. What story will unfold in this daring canine journey? Nova, welcome to Meeple and Meeple. Thanks for joining me. How are you?
Nova: Well, I'm great and super excited. Thank you for having me. And wow, what an intro.
PJ Oubre: Absolutely. Well, thank you. Thank you so much. before we talk about space dogs, tell me a little bit about yourself. How did you first get into board game design?
Nova: that's a very good question. so I've been a board gamer kind of all my life. I really like board games. I like sitting around with my friends. the strategic aspect of it, so I'm also more on the higher class non-party games kind of end of the spectrum. And I've been developing games on and off with friends of mine. but this one is where I really want to make it count. because it's also the first one that really got further than just a prototype. usually the other games we played it for 10-20 rounds and then develop discovered that it was not enticing, so it was just a game that we made for us. But Space Dogs is yeah, the story is really captivating for me, and I wanna have that most or many people can enjoy that that game because yeah space dogs in itself it happened to me in a dream as cliche as it sounds no because I was playing in my dream I was playing with good friends and was kind of a cooperative game and the story was yeah captivating for me. It just how this synergies worked and we were all playing as dogs and I was like that would that make so much sense because dogs are pack animals so of course we are playing as dogs and I woke up in the
PJ Oubre: Okay. Okay, that makes sense. Sure, yeah.
Nova: and I woke up in the middle of the night and realized that I never actually played this game. so I took my notebook Wrote some notes, messaged this one friend of mine that I was developing games before with, went back to sleep, woke up again in the morning, remembered nothing. And it was like two to three weeks maybe, when I wanted to ask my friend another message and saw my own messages to him, and I was like, what the f is going on? Why? Who wrote this? Space dogs? What is that? And then I remembered that I got my notes, and the notes aren't they were not good notes. They're like what you would expect from someone who very sleep deprived writes something in a notebook in the middle of the night. But that's kind of where the journey began. And I kind of scribbled out the universe, and after half a year, so about one year ago. took the decision that I this is what I want to do, this is what I want to release. This gives me something, this is it gives me purpose and yeah it means something to me. I talked
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: with many people about the game and they were yeah just listening to the stories that I told them. So it is not just me. And that gave me enough fuel to yeah, took the decision to make it full time now. So that's what I am now, a board game developer. And it's crazy. It's just a crazy thing to say.
PJ Oubre: So you had this dream and this story begins to unfold, and you decide that you're gonna try to design the game. Was there a specific game or a specific board game designer that inspired you to help you in development?
Nova: during development I mean I I think the scene of board game developers is crazy. There are so many insanely smart people out there, and they're so good in the core of their heart.
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: At no point I had the the fear that someone's going to steal an idea, and I never Everyone is just this is insane. This is cool. Your idea, how can I help? And of course, now I'm part of that I don't know almost cult where
PJ Oubre: Yeah.
Nova: I also like to help people. It's just very wholesome. And I never encountered something like that in in my life in a in a professional environment with strangers. And it's yeah, insane for me. So
PJ Oubre: Right. Right. So
Nova: it's no Not a board game or a well-known board game developer that's that has helped me, but more the community of board game developers in itself. And yeah, at every expo, every convention that I go to, I meet someone new. And that is very interesting to me because I I'm not a person that is very out. going, it's hard for me to kind of meet new people and now scratch that. That is gone. I feel I feel myself in that environment.
PJ Oubre: yeah, you are part of a vibrant community now. So
Nova: Mm-hmm.
PJ Oubre: So welcome.
Nova: Thank you for having me, it's awesome.
PJ Oubre: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about the the actual game itself. You mentioned it's cooperative. is it a is it strictly a card game? Is it a board game? Is it a role-playing game? What can we expect from it?
Nova: So my pitch goes as follows. Space Dogs
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: is a cooperative hex crawler with deck building elements and a strong focus on the narrative. Yeah, because deck building games, I I like just like them a lot. Kind of you have your engine that you can build, you try and figure out synergies, not with just with your hands and your equipment, but with your teammates, that would be awesome. And Yeah, for the storytelling aspect, as I already said, it's it is very important for me personally because I think the most memorable moments were are always when I'm around my friends and we together achieve something which becomes meaningful because it means something in the cosmos of the game. And yeah, I know I also like non-story telling games, but as I already said, I also come from a background of role-playing games, but I feel people are very into role-game playing games if they are if they like that genre in itself. And one feedback that I got at one convention was that Space Dogs is the gateway into role-playing because it's rural light, it just Gives you kind of the archetypes of the character that you can play, and
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: it just makes it more fun to kind of act out what you're doing because your your actions are very limited. You don't need to discuss what is the possibilities of kind of the realm of my actions, like because a role-playing game can be overwhelming, especially if you're playing it first time. So that kind of
PJ Oubre: Yep. Absolutely.
Nova: space dogs. combines all that aspects of yeah easy to get into it. Well, I mean now I'm working on the rule book and it's still a whopping 35 pages at the moment.
PJ Oubre: you're gonna have to work on that.
Nova: Maybe a bit. But it's also a lot of pictures.
PJ Oubre: Yep. what yeah. So was was it always your intention for your game to be a gateway to role playing or did that happen naturally?
Nova: It kind of happened naturally because I just wanted to make a game that I would love to play because my heart is in kind of every aspect of the game. and this is kind of the game that I was missing out on my
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: entire life. And that sounds very grand, but I try to make it actually good. So I hope Other people like it too. and in the beginning I catered a lot to towards the the broader broader board game audience and got I don't know, not not necessarily pushback, but they were more on the front of not everyone really la wants a strong narrative focused game because over a session for of the two hours that is one scenario of the 12 in the base game is about 15 minutes of reading and that sometimes
PJ Oubre: okay.
Nova: sounds overwhelming but fret not there might be an audiobook as a stretch goal as the
PJ Oubre: okay.
Nova: small stretch goal it will be read in by by me and my friends and If the game actually takes off, I will hire professional people just to kind of read the excerpts and do the funny voices, which is important.
PJ Oubre: Right, right. So when you say there's a lot of reading, do you mean reading like so is there reading out loud by one player, by all the players?
Nova: Great that you asked that because I absolutely forgot that Space Dogs is also a that one versus many. So one
PJ Oubre: Okay. Yep.
Nova: person takes the role of the game runner, that kind of does well pushes the narrative forward, takes care of set up setting up the map, if the event triggers are holding up and plays as all the enemy tokens. But the game runner is not. against the space dogs. We all win together. Just the game runner has different goals, whereas the space dogs need to, for example, solve a riddle or overcome the hardships of just enemies that are rushing towards you, or whatever the scenario forces you to do at the moment. The game runners goals are more like gamified. dungeon mastering, so to speak. So if you, for example, in the first scenario, hold a certain line for more than two rounds, then you get one check mark. If you either narratively or by strategic placement of some enemies, force the enemies for force the space dogs to explore into one room which would look boring otherwise, and make them discover some hidden elements. You get one check mark because you did good. And so everybody levels up and there's no it's us versus them.
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: It stays cooperative throughout.
PJ Oubre: Yeah. What kind of experience are you hoping players will get after sitting down and playing a sess a session of space dogs? Like is there a specific emotion you're hoping that they're gonna feel that's gonna come out of the game and the story?
Nova: an emotion is kind of the overarching term because every scenario is handcrafted and different. every scenario has its own hand hand-drawn map. And for example, the first scenario is kind of the most dungeon crawly experience that you can get. There are enemies, you need to fight the enemies, you learned how to play the game. There is one scenario and a won't spoil a lot and this point which works through betrayal and your assumptions of how an adventure goes and I hate that I I in the playtest that we did it was marvelous people were angry they were sad I loved it so much because I mean that also is the The writing needs to be good to convey these emotions. And in that part, it is the storytelling experience. If you would just fight someone and then win, that would be well, I don't want to say boring because there are so many games that do that, and that is a absolutely valid emotion to have at the end of a session. But I want this, yeah, as you said, like to have an experience. because it plays with your anticipations. There's one level, for example, that is that you can solve without firing a gun. And it's more about solving a riddle. And then the
PJ Oubre: Okay. So
Nova: narrative that is spun around kind
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: of that part that you need to solve.
PJ Oubre: So there's multiple skills that the players have to use or implement in the game rather than just exclusively combat.
Nova: yeah, definitely. It's most most of these are emanating from kind of the people on the table because that is a game aspect that is taken into account. Of course it's a deck building and the deck building works by you choosing a piece of armor, a weapon and a tool, and you get some cards with that. And these cards there's no card that says Look in direction that's something that you actually have to see on the map that you're playing on, which is why everything is handcrafted, there are environmental hints, or you need to listen to the story or make your assumptions with your cooperative players. And yeah, so it is an experiment, and I hope it it catches.
PJ Oubre: Right. So during the course of a scenario, because you mentioned that it's deck building,
Nova: Mm-hmm.
PJ Oubre: the primary mechanic is deck building. so during a scenario, will the players be gaining cards that enter their deck or is the deck built at the beginning of the scenario?
Nova: mostly or in the beginning of a scenario, it's in the beginning when you choose your loadout. there are well enemies that can shuffle in status effects. the higher tier pieces of equipment that you can get after a level after a scenario might also work more into the very dynamic deck building aspects. So you can add cards, multiply cards. But that's yeah far end because the entire game is also meant to be very tutorial like. So the first few levels are getting to know the game, and then you have your strategy. And then something changes, a new type of enemy is being introduced, which messes with your with your strategy, because all of a sudden they can add cards to your deck or they mess with your temperament scale which is some your mood basically which always shifts between wild and tame and you get stance cards that you can activate which offer passive bonuses but as a drawback your your mood your temperament always shifts into one or the other direction and you
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: don't want it to hit the end so in the beginning it seems easy because every four rounds you just need to switch the stands and then ta-da someone shows up and yeah throws a wrench in into your engine.
PJ Oubre: Yeah. Of course. Are there are there variable builds for your decks when you play from scenario to scenario? Or am I essentially the same deck every scenario?
Nova: No, no. in the beginning of scenario, first you're getting red short abstract. What is this scenario about? Like the space dogs hanging out in the Cedar, their trusty spaceship, and how are they getting to the next scenario and what are they searching for? and then after kind of you can get a grasp of the kind of level that you're expecting. Is it a mission mission where you need to run a lot. So heavy armor is kind of maybe not the best choice. but you can choose your loadout, not only the equipment, but also the powers and stances that you bring along to to solve this scenario. You can choose choose it freely between missions. So
PJ Oubre: Do you do you start scenarios like do you know kind of what the general the broad strokes of the scenario is before you do your loadout to know how to fashion your deck beforehand?
Nova: Well yes. For example, one scenario might be in the streets of neo Tokyo, which means long alleyways, so you could put some a gun, a sniper gun that has a long range because your line of sight might not be limited. One scenario is in a jungle where kind of the the other thing might occur. so narrow narrow corners and you need to be moving a lot. and but you could jump behind cover or whatever. So yeah you can get a notion of what's to come and use that knowledge to build your loadout.
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: but that's probably a skill that you don't have in the first two levels.
PJ Oubre: Sure. Right. Right. what kind of rather what was the biggest design challenge that you had to overcome in this process?
Nova: Well, lots. Like I I said one for the question if it was catered to role playing game in the beginning. first of all, because I like role playing games, so having a dungeon master game runner is it's fun. I like it. and that is kind of the biggest drawback or well, people thought, especially because at the board game, strictly board game events, were thought were saying, I'm insane, this is never gonna work. So that is kind of why we started gamifying the game runner aspect. so they have their own goals, then they can achieve something, they have a ranking but still not competing in a strict manner against the other players at the table. So everybody wins together because there was the premise.
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: because if yeah there are people fighting each other at the table and you benefit the winner then you have kind of a rolling snowball effect. but yeah that for example was one strong design challenge also how
PJ Oubre: Mm-hmm.
Nova: to calculate how many cards do you need in a deck
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: because you could You draw five cards and it's all movement and you can't use any of that. How do you circumvent I these? Either by manipulating what cards get added in your deck beforehand, or we added for example, one action that you can do to prepare your deck a bit, or draw more cards, or put one card from your from your hand back on the top of the deck, just kind of as a fallback. because overall the game should be fun, and working through frustration is something that we try to alleviate with some ideas, but
PJ Oubre: Right, right.
Nova: more than that, I mean I did now about 70 to 80 playtests, and so many people had great ideas, and to say no to a good idea because it's already full and the rule book is long and it would make it probably better and more realistic in a certain frame. But to say no to a good idea because it doesn't fit the setting, that's also very hard. And it would be something for a for another game. But yeah, then also telling someone who really enjoys the game, the playtest that you just had with them and they're yeah encouraged enough to to tell their idea to you and then kind of how to deal with that, write it down, kind of think about it, and but then at some point, because yeah sometimes people are very kind of close to my usual bubble, tell them it's a good idea for a different game. also very hard because I don't know if there will be a different game. I'm already working on the second one.
PJ Oubre: Well, let's yeah. So this is gonna take us to my favorite part of the show, right?
Nova: Yes.
PJ Oubre: every everyone knows how much I love playtesting. and I had a really cool play test experience just last week at Gen Con. So so I'm
Nova: Mm-hmm.
PJ Oubre: really I'm kind of thinking a lot about playtesting right now. and of course I ask this question all the time how easy was it for you to allow yourself to be vulnerable and open up your your idea. to playtesting and feedback.
Nova: well for me in my my earlier life because before I became an official board game developer, because now I have a page on board game geek, that's awesome.
PJ Oubre: Yeah.
Nova: I've been doing I've been planning projects, so that's kind of what I was doing. Team building, team management, and I think therefore it was easier for me because I know that I'm only as smart as I I myself am. More people, more good.
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: to manage the ideas is kind of the part that is interesting. But yeah especially in the field that I was working in, it's always in or important to held up hold up the idea that you become ego less in that Team setting.
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: It's very good to pitch ideas. It's good to always let ideas go down easy. no idea is bad, but we can think about things, and nobody is allowed to kind of take ownership of an idea because we are all working towards a common goal, and that's also how I approach playtesting. because I'm people are taking Their free time, time is a very valuable resource for everyone, to help me release a game of or release an idea that I love. And yeah, so I also want to be welcoming and open, open to that. And because I mean some of the challenges that I try to solve, for example, the XP gain for the game runner is an idea that I I myself not have,
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: because yeah, as a team we're always stronger, which is the theme of the game Space Dogs.
PJ Oubre: Right. How many times do I talk about it? Our our diversity comes from our strength comes from diversity, right? So as a team, we're
Nova: Exactly.
PJ Oubre: stronger. I I do love that. And you've talked about that a little bit. that and story seem to be the very the very core of your game, of the way you approach the way you design games. You've talked a lot about story. so let's real quick. Can you give us a little background story on space dogs? What are people gonna expect?
Nova: so in the beginning there was the first space race that we all remember in 60s it was about power who gets kind of ownership of space. And then there was a couple of years later, which is kind of our current time frame. there was a second space race which was about profit, which billionaires gets their ships into space to offer fund rights to the one who Can pay what was what is now 200,000 or something? I have I forgot. but the third space race, that one was for us, for the common man. so there was a new technology is being developed, the stable room manipulation developed at the LEEP laboratories, but the first experiment went horribly wrong. capacitors overloaded and it connected. some locations in the universe energetically in a in a manner that I can not comp comprehend. Let's say there are some magical aspects to it, that
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: we are in the in the game of space dogs going to find out what happened because some of the things that happened were that four normal dogs were antomorphosized. So they become became human like upright posture, exposable thumbs, and the well, the human condition also, because for them they were really shook, ripped out of their normal society, their cosmos. They also have all their backstories, which is aspects that you can find throughout the game or kind of as an Easter egg sometimes. because I needed that for my world building just to figure out how some of the characters' voices basically. So I wrote a lot about what happened at which time to whom. And the game of space dogs is like 15-20 years after that. we have perfected space travel. it's easy to to take a trip to a distant star. And of course, it's a new frontier, a real gold rush, because there are untapped resources, and yeah, all that stuff that and so humanity reached towards the stars. and that already happened when we are meeting the space dogs and start a new scenario. So we travel to distant stars and trying to figure out what happened there, why is Why are we here at this location? Which most of the time it is Aurora that so one of the dogs, she developed a compass machine that kind of gives her a rough estimate about the location of the next artifact or a location or a being or an object that also has been touched by this mysterious energy.
PJ Oubre: Mm.
Nova: And we're trying to figure out kind of what happens because it's kind of at that point a very 80s style comic. So we go somewhere, something happens, it's always interesting, we try to figure out what hap what what goes and then try to survive.
PJ Oubre: Hmm. I that is incredible. That is a great story. and and I hope people really embrace that. I've noticed particularly with Awakened Realms, right? They have they've chosen to use a graphic novel form for their campaigns in the Nemesis trilogy.
Nova: Mm-hmm.
PJ Oubre: is that something similar? that you are doing in the story or is it all text? 'Cause you did mention the rule book has a lot of pictures, so is it more of a graphic novel or comic book or is it a just a book of text?
Nova: So there's the other 50% of this company is my very good long-term friend Tanya, and she's an amazing artist. and she has this very unique style that you probably already saw when you were on BoardGameGeek or on the website. And she breathes life into kind of this very absurd story. She makes it believable that there's
PJ Oubre: Mm.
Nova: a dog of two meters standing in front of you. and I would love the that we have more images during the scenario description but she's also just one person and I don't want to burn her out but
PJ Oubre: Right. Sure. Right.
Nova: there will definitely be be images just to if Well, in my in my imagination it would be certain scenes that are very strong and just one location that or a scenario where people talking to each other and it looks well it's evokes a certain emotion that we have one image for that. yeah, so we see how that fizzles out. Maybe she finds that she has three clones and then we can do it as a graphic novel. That would be awesome. Because I I really like everything she does. And she's such a talented person. I'm super happy to have her on the team.
PJ Oubre: So there's I've noticed a trend. Designers like to hide a feature in their games that they really hope people will discover or uncover. is there something like that in Space Dogs that you're really hoping people are gonna be like they're gonna just through play of the game, they're gonna just really grab onto this one feature that you've secretly hidden. Whether it's a story, whether it's a card, whether anything like that.
Nova: Well, personally I really like alternative reality games. I kind of played all of them worldwide.
PJ Oubre: Yeah.
Nova: So I I really like doing the things and I to my friends I always said, I built this website for this one obscure fact that is setting in the Space Dogs universe. the one person that will find it will love it. And I just enjoy doing it and just yeah, bullshitting my my way around kind of yeah, to feel how the universe is because I it helps me write more compelling stories. But yeah, there will be little puzzles or QR codes that you can find that will bring you to somewhere where you can read an excerpt, a poem that Orion wrote to his former family that already is hidden away, so have a look at the maps.
PJ Oubre: Yeah. Okay. is there is there one specific feature in the game that you're really proud of and it's it's it's finished but it it just it brings you the most pride.
Nova: it was not the feature that gave me the most pride in the beginning, but in all the contest competitions that I've been in, the feature that was always held up high the most was the temperament and stance scale, because that is where I got this does not exist yet. This is a very interesting mechanic to play around with just to activate passive bonuses. and kind of to trigger synergies and yeah it kind of shifts and you need to balance it out but then there
PJ Oubre: Mm-hmm.
Nova: are sometimes you need to you you need to become enraged and lose your next turn but it is important for kind of the mission to succeed that you just give it a bit more it kind of I think it makes it relatable because we've all been in situations where we're like, I'm I just want to go to bed. But if I go the extra mile right now, the product will be awesome. Yeah, and I think yeah, that's where I got a lot of very positive feedback for. and I also really I don't know, I like it. It's beautifully designed, it's very easy to to grasp. and the emergent systems that come out of it. because the passive stance that you activate helps your your teammate to achieve something to be better. And
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: that's yeah cool.
PJ Oubre: Alt alternatively, is there something that you really were proud of that you ended up having to cut from this from the game or the system and that you're hoping maybe you can bring back later, either in a different game or in an expansion or something of that nature?
Nova: Well of course there are lots of scenarios that were either not good enough yet or like I already kind of dove into a little bit the entire world building
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: is something that I do mostly for fun because after a full day of developing space dogs I sit at the same spot at the same computer and then think about a different aspect that is not Well, not helping the game at all, it's just fun for me.
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: but yeah, having kind of the universe might help doing an expansion at some point. and I also really like just storytelling, and that is also a very positive win was at some conventions because I like I already pitched it, Space Dogs is a corroborative hex scroller with that winning, and it's a strong focus on the narrative, and I always say that and People just have to believe me. So so what what what am I going to do? Because I am sitting at even if we do have a playtest session at a very loud expo, I am just improvising because for me it's important. There are new people that are into the game and everything is loud. So I kind of talk to them, look them in the eye, move my hands to do the funny voices. But that is not necessarily the written story anymore. so what I did was write a few short stories and print them myself, just for people to have a look. And they took the the the prints and I didn't have any at the end of the day. And every single con, people walk away with them, something that I wrote because they said this is so good, it's worth stealing and I love it
PJ Oubre: It's so good it's worth stealing. that's great.
Nova: Ha ha ha.
PJ Oubre: Was there how did you balance the so again you've talked at great length about the importance of story, it's narrative driven, that's the core, but it's also a game, it's deck building, particularly in a large convention hall that's really loud. How do
Nova: Uh-huh.
PJ Oubre: you balance the the theme of you know maintaining the story at the core? And then the game mechanics. How'd you balance that?
Nova: well I I feel like the hand-drawn aspect of the map really helps and the art aspect, so everything looks very futuristic and over the top. And that draws you in to kind of yeah, uphold the suspension of disbelief. You are not actually playing a game, you're living kind of a bit more, a bit closer, you're walking over the hex fields. and that works quite well I guess because at some point, especially when the storytelling aspect comes into play, I think the the biggest table that I ever played with was eight people because they they kept stopping. And we're like, this looks interesting. Can I join? I was like, yeah, it's cooperative. We all play four players. And you all try to fight me. Just grab a table, come closer. And it was and they there. Because I mean there were lots of people, so other people stopped. But that was very fun. I love that. But yeah, how to combine that with mechanics. I think most deck builders or especially in the common time kind of go they want you to break the game. And I am actively not forbidding this because there are basically runs where a a smart combination of where the tools that are at the disposal of the players and some items that they have and it they they made very smart plays and I don't want to limit that and they
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: were having fun at the table and this is nothing this is it should be prohibited that this is the goal the golden scenario that works for every kind of every mission
PJ Oubre: Sure. Right.
Nova: because but if an item that is only c r discoverable by walking through s to certain chests and roll of the dice basically and then if it turns out good so so be it. I love it.
PJ Oubre: So what is do you have a piece of advice for somebody who's thinking about designing a game? And I I mean, I know you're not launching just yet, you're still working on it, but do you have one piece of advice that you would give to somebody starting out?
Nova: go out, play it with other people. because you get feedback, feedback from non-friends, which is very important, not family, not friends, not people that need to be nice to you because they you will see them tomorrow. there are always, especially I don't know, in Germany, there is basically in every bigger city, there's a a group of game developers that are meeting once a month or something. and it's such a diamond to to have a group of people that you can ask. especially if I don't know there's kind of two big camps, people that are searching rather for publishers or people that are going to become self-published. And of course this is very different roads except for the game mechanics, which is where everybody is insanely helpful. but yeah, pitching a game to publisher is very different than all the extra hoops you have to jump through when going self published. But
PJ Oubre: Right. Yeah.
Nova: even then, there's I don't know at one convention I was pushed into a Discord stream or a Discord channel where there were just a handful of people that are professional rule book editors. And the things they have to say is just great. So yeah, my advice is go out, there are people that are smarter than you, and that's wonderful.
PJ Oubre: Yes. Yep. That is absolutely true. tell me a little bit about the the the just the gaming community in Germany, right? obviously the largest gaming convention in the world is in Essen, coming up here in a few months. so many games have come out of Germany in the modern hobby, right?
Nova: Uh-huh.
PJ Oubre: one it's easy for someone to just assume that It is like at the you know, it's the peak, it's the pinnacle, and it's, you know, mainstream. Tell me a little bit about the community of gamers in the hobby in Germany.
Nova: Well, first of all, there are a lot. well before that, I just need to plug that Space Dogs will also be at Essen. so everyone who's listening right now, come give us a visit. You get a high five and a sticker pack.
PJ Oubre: Hey, there you go.
Nova: but yeah, here I don't know. I think there's something about maybe it's a bit of cliche, but about Germans and rules that you need to follow and who follows
PJ Oubre: Ha ha ha.
Nova: it the best is the winner of the game. so I mean there's there's a reason why it's called Eurogames probably.
PJ Oubre: Yeah, it's true.
Nova: But yeah, there are definitely lots of conventions. Every month I am going somewhere to showcase either Space Dogs or just talk to people, learn something new. and yeah, I think it's also a respite of for people just trying to kind of get by because as I've said in the beginning, the community is just amazing and friendly and it feels warm and cozy to hang out with like-minded people. So yeah, I don't know. Probably it just kicked off because there's a an overhead of people that are here living here and because it became a community, it become became a strong community. I don't know. I don't think it's something about the forests or the not no almost non existent mountains. Probably it's because of that. So people need to imagine their own scenarios.
PJ Oubre: Right, right. Is there is there a board game out there that you think is flying under the radar and that deserves more hype out there right now?
Nova: probably, I mean, so in my group of friends, a board game that we really loved was Detective. It's also a storytelling game by Portal Games, I think. and the way they wrote the story is absolutely stunning. It's exciting and the mechanics they use to introduce an aspect of yeah you don't have enough time and you need to solve the case and it's it's very masterfully done and it captivated us so much that we actually met once a week fully dressed as 80s detectives or whatever the setting was someone brought donuts and there was just yeah so if someone is in for a for a good case, a good story, puzzle and spending time with friends detected is something that I don't know. I I cannot give it more much more cray than it deserves or as much cray as it deserves or whatever it's called.
PJ Oubre: Yeah. So what's your what is your dream table? If you could play space dogs with any four people, dead or alive, who would they be?
Nova: one person would probably be Andy Weir.
PJ Oubre: Yeah.
Nova: Because in the beginning when I was n before before the time where I was doing it full time, I was reading Project Hail Mary, so it was maybe one and a half years ago. And I was on my ebook reader reading a very obscure version of it, but in the end it kind of a hey, this is I did the story, I hope you like it, and then a personal email address. And I was like, this is probably wrong. So I just write them and was like, dude, the way you write characters is so compelling, and I love it so much. And I'm also in the process of writing a fictional story, and I know you like space. If you also like board games, I will send you a copy free of charge just to kind of get it out of screaming into the void basically. But I kid you not, an hour later he replied with post office boxers like I'm I'm looking forward to that. So definitely that guy.
PJ Oubre: Okay. All right. Andy Weir, yes.
Nova: Yeah. And apart from that, I don't know, definitely well the people that are around me that help create this game because it's not I I said it's me and the other fifty percent of pa is Tanya, but I'm living in such a great bubble of people that are encouraging me to yeah, to live this dream. And yeah, that's something so how could I get them off the table?
PJ Oubre: Ha ha ha.
Nova: They are always always invited, even if we're twenty.
PJ Oubre: Yeah. is there a game, role playing or board game, that's had the biggest impact on your life outside of gaming?
Nova: outside of gaming is probably just role-playing games in general. friends and a very good friend of mine and I, we were writing just one-shot episodes for a role-playing game setting that we made up because we were upset with the rules of because we w just wanted to throw some dice and tell story cooperatively. And that brought me way out of my comfort zone to talk to other people and they are talking to you. But I also want to encourage them to talk to each other. And they asked me every single detail about the story. And I'm like, I don't know, man. So I need to come with up come up with something on the spot. so yeah, the stories that I wrote with that person also really helped me kind of to become the person that I am, to overcome this anxiousness, to fail fail often and survive. And yeah, that's something I mean it it sounds so great, so grand because it's just a role-playing game and you're sitting on the table with friends. Of course nobody's going to kill you. But sometimes it feels like it. Or I had when I was growing up, I had the conception that I was unable to be wrong or to fail. And that is something that now I learned differently and I'm very grateful
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: for that.
PJ Oubre: I I don't I don't talk a lot. I mean, there's a space for tabletop role playing and I engage in it myself, but I don't talk about it a lot on the show. Years ago, gosh, twenty five years ago. God, I'm old. was playing Mage the Ascension. was a role playing game by the World of Darkness, White Wolf Publishing. They're no longer in existence. and I was playing this was so I was in my early twenties, and through the dynamics of the different players, we were in a position where someone had to take a leadership role, right? And I, you know, I'm I'm 21, 22 years old. I'm a you know, quiet little scrawny guy, and like my character just kind of naturally was the leader and You talk about getting out of your comfort zone? Yeah, I was not used to like tell you know, directing people and balancing multiple personal objectives and motivations and goals and trying to make sure that everyone's everyone's taken care of and trying to assist everyone in all of their objectives, all the while trying to manage my own. in this huge campaign that ended up being like three or four years, this game went on.
Nova: Ha ha ha.
PJ Oubre: but it really developed a lot of my skills that I think in a lot of ways has led me to this podcast and has
Nova: Mm-hmm.
PJ Oubre: helped me to build a community and interact with people around the world, such as yourself. And I think I can trace it back to playing Mage the Ascension in my twenties. And yeah, I never would have thought I'd be here. 20 something years ago. So there's definitely
Nova: Awesome.
PJ Oubre: a there's definitely a place for role-playing games. And
Nova: Mm-hmm.
PJ Oubre: I need to try to spread the podcast out more. yeah. So so I do I love that. I love tabletop role-playing, and it's always got a special place in my heart. you know, it's usually board games nowadays, but every now and then. So Space Dark seems to be this perfect hybrid of of board gaming, right? You have some deck con deck building and that, but it's it's a cooperative game, but there's role playing 'cause the story, the narrative is at the heart. and it sounds like you are well on your way to achieving that all of your goals in this game. Yeah. Yeah. So
Nova: Yeah, hopefully. I always say, so we are right in the niche between board game and role playing game.
PJ Oubre: Yeah.
Nova: And the twelve people of us that like it love it. But yeah, coming back to your story. Thank you for sharing it. It's very inspiring and
PJ Oubre: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I hadn't thought about it in a while. So yeah. Thanks. Thanks for being the the impetus for bringing that story back to my memory. Yeah. what does
Nova: Lovely. Also
PJ Oubre: at the end of the day, when you finish the design, you launch it on whatever, whether you whether it's a publisher, Kickstarter, GameFound, whatever. and we haven't even talked about that yet. What does success look like for you?
Nova: in general with anyone, not just me. So if I for space stocks,
PJ Oubre: No, for for space dogs, what does success look like for you? Yeah.
Nova: if it's printed, and that means 300 people have to buy it, because
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: then I brought something that I created into this world.
PJ Oubre: Which is huge, right? Yeah. It's
Nova: Yes, that's crazy.
PJ Oubre: it's scary too. absolutely. Absolutely. So what is what's the plan? I know that BoardGameGeek says it's a twenty twenty seven release. are
Nova: Mm-hmm.
PJ Oubre: are are are you planning Kickstarter? Are you pitching it to a publisher? What is the plan?
Nova: Yes, there will be well I'm beyond the phase where I pitched to pick to publishers
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: because it was too niche and I was bringing art and it's not something that sells well in the terms of a publisher. there was one that is or was interested and we're kind of still on talking terms, but Well, if it would be my my my greatest dream if they would be the publisher for North America, because this is insane, the regulations at the moment. I would not like to touch it if I don't have to. yeah, but it will be released probably or most likely via Kickstarter in February. where the campaign will go live, then we need to some months just to finish up the designs and playtests on the the final kind of goal, the final missions, and then print it, ship it worldwide. I have some fulfillment centers already that I wanna work with because they're very nice people and I don't know. For me, it also it's such an overwhelming experience just to go just all the hats that I'm kind of collecting over the past months.
PJ Oubre: Right. Sure.
Nova: so if I have a very nice phone call with someone and they sound like they can handle stuff that's a weight off of my chest.
PJ Oubre: Yeah. yeah. I can only imagine, absolutely. So any anyone who's interested, go ahead.
Nova: Yeah, so the yeah, by if if the stars align and everything works out, then by the end of twenty seven the first people will have space dogs in their shelves and hopefully out of the packaging and on the table.
PJ Oubre: Awesome. Awesome. So for everyone who's interested, it's space dogs. where can they find you and on all the social media?
Nova: well there's spacedogs.rocks, our website, where you get a very good overview and some links and soon the rule book so you can look into it and see if it's overwhelming or not. otherwise we are space dogs underscore game on Instagram where I publish most things and are kind of responsive or attentive to most other social media things. This the entire social media game is crazy for me. I never had a social media account in my life and needed to have one for for this game because a friend of mine who does professional marketing said, you need to go out there. People need to see you with your face, with your voice, because it's your authenticity that sales because never nobody has heard about you or the game. So that was a big step and now I'm kind of doing video interviews or
PJ Oubre: Yeah.
Nova: reading my own short stories to a crowd of people. And it's also been a very interesting feat because on the one hand, we talk about the dangers of social media and that you're comparing to yourself to the people that were born better or just you
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: you are comparing your everyday life with the peak shining spotlight moments of some
PJ Oubre: Yeah.
Nova: stranger. And for me it was kind of a very different interaction because I don't know one of the videos three weeks ago that I did super cringe and I just put it out there. I was like the the video I had an idea about what I wanted to tell about, talk about. And I was not I was not Yeah, it was not it didn't feel right the video day. So I scrapped everything and I did that twice. And the third time I was just leave the camera rolling. I will goof around and be me and do funny stuff and talk about the game and cut it, push it online, and I think six seven hundred people saw it. And 30 people liked it. I was it was crazy. I'm like this is someone watches. the shit that I do when I'm on my own and unsupervised and pushes the like button, this is insane. This is more on them than it is on me.
PJ Oubre: It's yes, absolutely, absolutely. well, listen, Nova, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to share your story with me. the game is Space Dogs. Hopefully, it will be launching on Kickstarter February 2027. Be on the lookout for it. and as always, guys, make sure you hit the like and subscribe button but here's a question for you all. what is your favorite narrative driven game? Post it in the comments so that Nova and I can see it and we'll respond. We want to know what games are hitting your table that are focused on story, that are narrative driven. So let us know in the comments below. As always, be kind to each other. Let's play more games.
Nova: Exactly.
Nova: Well, I'm great and super excited. Thank you for having me. And wow, what an intro.
PJ Oubre: Absolutely. Well, thank you. Thank you so much. before we talk about space dogs, tell me a little bit about yourself. How did you first get into board game design?
Nova: that's a very good question. so I've been a board gamer kind of all my life. I really like board games. I like sitting around with my friends. the strategic aspect of it, so I'm also more on the higher class non-party games kind of end of the spectrum. And I've been developing games on and off with friends of mine. but this one is where I really want to make it count. because it's also the first one that really got further than just a prototype. usually the other games we played it for 10-20 rounds and then develop discovered that it was not enticing, so it was just a game that we made for us. But Space Dogs is yeah, the story is really captivating for me, and I wanna have that most or many people can enjoy that that game because yeah space dogs in itself it happened to me in a dream as cliche as it sounds no because I was playing in my dream I was playing with good friends and was kind of a cooperative game and the story was yeah captivating for me. It just how this synergies worked and we were all playing as dogs and I was like that would that make so much sense because dogs are pack animals so of course we are playing as dogs and I woke up in the
PJ Oubre: Okay. Okay, that makes sense. Sure, yeah.
Nova: and I woke up in the middle of the night and realized that I never actually played this game. so I took my notebook Wrote some notes, messaged this one friend of mine that I was developing games before with, went back to sleep, woke up again in the morning, remembered nothing. And it was like two to three weeks maybe, when I wanted to ask my friend another message and saw my own messages to him, and I was like, what the f is going on? Why? Who wrote this? Space dogs? What is that? And then I remembered that I got my notes, and the notes aren't they were not good notes. They're like what you would expect from someone who very sleep deprived writes something in a notebook in the middle of the night. But that's kind of where the journey began. And I kind of scribbled out the universe, and after half a year, so about one year ago. took the decision that I this is what I want to do, this is what I want to release. This gives me something, this is it gives me purpose and yeah it means something to me. I talked
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: with many people about the game and they were yeah just listening to the stories that I told them. So it is not just me. And that gave me enough fuel to yeah, took the decision to make it full time now. So that's what I am now, a board game developer. And it's crazy. It's just a crazy thing to say.
PJ Oubre: So you had this dream and this story begins to unfold, and you decide that you're gonna try to design the game. Was there a specific game or a specific board game designer that inspired you to help you in development?
Nova: during development I mean I I think the scene of board game developers is crazy. There are so many insanely smart people out there, and they're so good in the core of their heart.
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: At no point I had the the fear that someone's going to steal an idea, and I never Everyone is just this is insane. This is cool. Your idea, how can I help? And of course, now I'm part of that I don't know almost cult where
PJ Oubre: Yeah.
Nova: I also like to help people. It's just very wholesome. And I never encountered something like that in in my life in a in a professional environment with strangers. And it's yeah, insane for me. So
PJ Oubre: Right. Right. So
Nova: it's no Not a board game or a well-known board game developer that's that has helped me, but more the community of board game developers in itself. And yeah, at every expo, every convention that I go to, I meet someone new. And that is very interesting to me because I I'm not a person that is very out. going, it's hard for me to kind of meet new people and now scratch that. That is gone. I feel I feel myself in that environment.
PJ Oubre: yeah, you are part of a vibrant community now. So
Nova: Mm-hmm.
PJ Oubre: So welcome.
Nova: Thank you for having me, it's awesome.
PJ Oubre: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about the the actual game itself. You mentioned it's cooperative. is it a is it strictly a card game? Is it a board game? Is it a role-playing game? What can we expect from it?
Nova: So my pitch goes as follows. Space Dogs
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: is a cooperative hex crawler with deck building elements and a strong focus on the narrative. Yeah, because deck building games, I I like just like them a lot. Kind of you have your engine that you can build, you try and figure out synergies, not with just with your hands and your equipment, but with your teammates, that would be awesome. And Yeah, for the storytelling aspect, as I already said, it's it is very important for me personally because I think the most memorable moments were are always when I'm around my friends and we together achieve something which becomes meaningful because it means something in the cosmos of the game. And yeah, I know I also like non-story telling games, but as I already said, I also come from a background of role-playing games, but I feel people are very into role-game playing games if they are if they like that genre in itself. And one feedback that I got at one convention was that Space Dogs is the gateway into role-playing because it's rural light, it just Gives you kind of the archetypes of the character that you can play, and
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: it just makes it more fun to kind of act out what you're doing because your your actions are very limited. You don't need to discuss what is the possibilities of kind of the realm of my actions, like because a role-playing game can be overwhelming, especially if you're playing it first time. So that kind of
PJ Oubre: Yep. Absolutely.
Nova: space dogs. combines all that aspects of yeah easy to get into it. Well, I mean now I'm working on the rule book and it's still a whopping 35 pages at the moment.
PJ Oubre: you're gonna have to work on that.
Nova: Maybe a bit. But it's also a lot of pictures.
PJ Oubre: Yep. what yeah. So was was it always your intention for your game to be a gateway to role playing or did that happen naturally?
Nova: It kind of happened naturally because I just wanted to make a game that I would love to play because my heart is in kind of every aspect of the game. and this is kind of the game that I was missing out on my
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: entire life. And that sounds very grand, but I try to make it actually good. So I hope Other people like it too. and in the beginning I catered a lot to towards the the broader broader board game audience and got I don't know, not not necessarily pushback, but they were more on the front of not everyone really la wants a strong narrative focused game because over a session for of the two hours that is one scenario of the 12 in the base game is about 15 minutes of reading and that sometimes
PJ Oubre: okay.
Nova: sounds overwhelming but fret not there might be an audiobook as a stretch goal as the
PJ Oubre: okay.
Nova: small stretch goal it will be read in by by me and my friends and If the game actually takes off, I will hire professional people just to kind of read the excerpts and do the funny voices, which is important.
PJ Oubre: Right, right. So when you say there's a lot of reading, do you mean reading like so is there reading out loud by one player, by all the players?
Nova: Great that you asked that because I absolutely forgot that Space Dogs is also a that one versus many. So one
PJ Oubre: Okay. Yep.
Nova: person takes the role of the game runner, that kind of does well pushes the narrative forward, takes care of set up setting up the map, if the event triggers are holding up and plays as all the enemy tokens. But the game runner is not. against the space dogs. We all win together. Just the game runner has different goals, whereas the space dogs need to, for example, solve a riddle or overcome the hardships of just enemies that are rushing towards you, or whatever the scenario forces you to do at the moment. The game runners goals are more like gamified. dungeon mastering, so to speak. So if you, for example, in the first scenario, hold a certain line for more than two rounds, then you get one check mark. If you either narratively or by strategic placement of some enemies, force the enemies for force the space dogs to explore into one room which would look boring otherwise, and make them discover some hidden elements. You get one check mark because you did good. And so everybody levels up and there's no it's us versus them.
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: It stays cooperative throughout.
PJ Oubre: Yeah. What kind of experience are you hoping players will get after sitting down and playing a sess a session of space dogs? Like is there a specific emotion you're hoping that they're gonna feel that's gonna come out of the game and the story?
Nova: an emotion is kind of the overarching term because every scenario is handcrafted and different. every scenario has its own hand hand-drawn map. And for example, the first scenario is kind of the most dungeon crawly experience that you can get. There are enemies, you need to fight the enemies, you learned how to play the game. There is one scenario and a won't spoil a lot and this point which works through betrayal and your assumptions of how an adventure goes and I hate that I I in the playtest that we did it was marvelous people were angry they were sad I loved it so much because I mean that also is the The writing needs to be good to convey these emotions. And in that part, it is the storytelling experience. If you would just fight someone and then win, that would be well, I don't want to say boring because there are so many games that do that, and that is a absolutely valid emotion to have at the end of a session. But I want this, yeah, as you said, like to have an experience. because it plays with your anticipations. There's one level, for example, that is that you can solve without firing a gun. And it's more about solving a riddle. And then the
PJ Oubre: Okay. So
Nova: narrative that is spun around kind
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: of that part that you need to solve.
PJ Oubre: So there's multiple skills that the players have to use or implement in the game rather than just exclusively combat.
Nova: yeah, definitely. It's most most of these are emanating from kind of the people on the table because that is a game aspect that is taken into account. Of course it's a deck building and the deck building works by you choosing a piece of armor, a weapon and a tool, and you get some cards with that. And these cards there's no card that says Look in direction that's something that you actually have to see on the map that you're playing on, which is why everything is handcrafted, there are environmental hints, or you need to listen to the story or make your assumptions with your cooperative players. And yeah, so it is an experiment, and I hope it it catches.
PJ Oubre: Right. So during the course of a scenario, because you mentioned that it's deck building,
Nova: Mm-hmm.
PJ Oubre: the primary mechanic is deck building. so during a scenario, will the players be gaining cards that enter their deck or is the deck built at the beginning of the scenario?
Nova: mostly or in the beginning of a scenario, it's in the beginning when you choose your loadout. there are well enemies that can shuffle in status effects. the higher tier pieces of equipment that you can get after a level after a scenario might also work more into the very dynamic deck building aspects. So you can add cards, multiply cards. But that's yeah far end because the entire game is also meant to be very tutorial like. So the first few levels are getting to know the game, and then you have your strategy. And then something changes, a new type of enemy is being introduced, which messes with your with your strategy, because all of a sudden they can add cards to your deck or they mess with your temperament scale which is some your mood basically which always shifts between wild and tame and you get stance cards that you can activate which offer passive bonuses but as a drawback your your mood your temperament always shifts into one or the other direction and you
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: don't want it to hit the end so in the beginning it seems easy because every four rounds you just need to switch the stands and then ta-da someone shows up and yeah throws a wrench in into your engine.
PJ Oubre: Yeah. Of course. Are there are there variable builds for your decks when you play from scenario to scenario? Or am I essentially the same deck every scenario?
Nova: No, no. in the beginning of scenario, first you're getting red short abstract. What is this scenario about? Like the space dogs hanging out in the Cedar, their trusty spaceship, and how are they getting to the next scenario and what are they searching for? and then after kind of you can get a grasp of the kind of level that you're expecting. Is it a mission mission where you need to run a lot. So heavy armor is kind of maybe not the best choice. but you can choose your loadout, not only the equipment, but also the powers and stances that you bring along to to solve this scenario. You can choose choose it freely between missions. So
PJ Oubre: Do you do you start scenarios like do you know kind of what the general the broad strokes of the scenario is before you do your loadout to know how to fashion your deck beforehand?
Nova: Well yes. For example, one scenario might be in the streets of neo Tokyo, which means long alleyways, so you could put some a gun, a sniper gun that has a long range because your line of sight might not be limited. One scenario is in a jungle where kind of the the other thing might occur. so narrow narrow corners and you need to be moving a lot. and but you could jump behind cover or whatever. So yeah you can get a notion of what's to come and use that knowledge to build your loadout.
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: but that's probably a skill that you don't have in the first two levels.
PJ Oubre: Sure. Right. Right. what kind of rather what was the biggest design challenge that you had to overcome in this process?
Nova: Well, lots. Like I I said one for the question if it was catered to role playing game in the beginning. first of all, because I like role playing games, so having a dungeon master game runner is it's fun. I like it. and that is kind of the biggest drawback or well, people thought, especially because at the board game, strictly board game events, were thought were saying, I'm insane, this is never gonna work. So that is kind of why we started gamifying the game runner aspect. so they have their own goals, then they can achieve something, they have a ranking but still not competing in a strict manner against the other players at the table. So everybody wins together because there was the premise.
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: because if yeah there are people fighting each other at the table and you benefit the winner then you have kind of a rolling snowball effect. but yeah that for example was one strong design challenge also how
PJ Oubre: Mm-hmm.
Nova: to calculate how many cards do you need in a deck
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: because you could You draw five cards and it's all movement and you can't use any of that. How do you circumvent I these? Either by manipulating what cards get added in your deck beforehand, or we added for example, one action that you can do to prepare your deck a bit, or draw more cards, or put one card from your from your hand back on the top of the deck, just kind of as a fallback. because overall the game should be fun, and working through frustration is something that we try to alleviate with some ideas, but
PJ Oubre: Right, right.
Nova: more than that, I mean I did now about 70 to 80 playtests, and so many people had great ideas, and to say no to a good idea because it's already full and the rule book is long and it would make it probably better and more realistic in a certain frame. But to say no to a good idea because it doesn't fit the setting, that's also very hard. And it would be something for a for another game. But yeah, then also telling someone who really enjoys the game, the playtest that you just had with them and they're yeah encouraged enough to to tell their idea to you and then kind of how to deal with that, write it down, kind of think about it, and but then at some point, because yeah sometimes people are very kind of close to my usual bubble, tell them it's a good idea for a different game. also very hard because I don't know if there will be a different game. I'm already working on the second one.
PJ Oubre: Well, let's yeah. So this is gonna take us to my favorite part of the show, right?
Nova: Yes.
PJ Oubre: every everyone knows how much I love playtesting. and I had a really cool play test experience just last week at Gen Con. So so I'm
Nova: Mm-hmm.
PJ Oubre: really I'm kind of thinking a lot about playtesting right now. and of course I ask this question all the time how easy was it for you to allow yourself to be vulnerable and open up your your idea. to playtesting and feedback.
Nova: well for me in my my earlier life because before I became an official board game developer, because now I have a page on board game geek, that's awesome.
PJ Oubre: Yeah.
Nova: I've been doing I've been planning projects, so that's kind of what I was doing. Team building, team management, and I think therefore it was easier for me because I know that I'm only as smart as I I myself am. More people, more good.
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: to manage the ideas is kind of the part that is interesting. But yeah especially in the field that I was working in, it's always in or important to held up hold up the idea that you become ego less in that Team setting.
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: It's very good to pitch ideas. It's good to always let ideas go down easy. no idea is bad, but we can think about things, and nobody is allowed to kind of take ownership of an idea because we are all working towards a common goal, and that's also how I approach playtesting. because I'm people are taking Their free time, time is a very valuable resource for everyone, to help me release a game of or release an idea that I love. And yeah, so I also want to be welcoming and open, open to that. And because I mean some of the challenges that I try to solve, for example, the XP gain for the game runner is an idea that I I myself not have,
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: because yeah, as a team we're always stronger, which is the theme of the game Space Dogs.
PJ Oubre: Right. How many times do I talk about it? Our our diversity comes from our strength comes from diversity, right? So as a team, we're
Nova: Exactly.
PJ Oubre: stronger. I I do love that. And you've talked about that a little bit. that and story seem to be the very the very core of your game, of the way you approach the way you design games. You've talked a lot about story. so let's real quick. Can you give us a little background story on space dogs? What are people gonna expect?
Nova: so in the beginning there was the first space race that we all remember in 60s it was about power who gets kind of ownership of space. And then there was a couple of years later, which is kind of our current time frame. there was a second space race which was about profit, which billionaires gets their ships into space to offer fund rights to the one who Can pay what was what is now 200,000 or something? I have I forgot. but the third space race, that one was for us, for the common man. so there was a new technology is being developed, the stable room manipulation developed at the LEEP laboratories, but the first experiment went horribly wrong. capacitors overloaded and it connected. some locations in the universe energetically in a in a manner that I can not comp comprehend. Let's say there are some magical aspects to it, that
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: we are in the in the game of space dogs going to find out what happened because some of the things that happened were that four normal dogs were antomorphosized. So they become became human like upright posture, exposable thumbs, and the well, the human condition also, because for them they were really shook, ripped out of their normal society, their cosmos. They also have all their backstories, which is aspects that you can find throughout the game or kind of as an Easter egg sometimes. because I needed that for my world building just to figure out how some of the characters' voices basically. So I wrote a lot about what happened at which time to whom. And the game of space dogs is like 15-20 years after that. we have perfected space travel. it's easy to to take a trip to a distant star. And of course, it's a new frontier, a real gold rush, because there are untapped resources, and yeah, all that stuff that and so humanity reached towards the stars. and that already happened when we are meeting the space dogs and start a new scenario. So we travel to distant stars and trying to figure out what happened there, why is Why are we here at this location? Which most of the time it is Aurora that so one of the dogs, she developed a compass machine that kind of gives her a rough estimate about the location of the next artifact or a location or a being or an object that also has been touched by this mysterious energy.
PJ Oubre: Mm.
Nova: And we're trying to figure out kind of what happens because it's kind of at that point a very 80s style comic. So we go somewhere, something happens, it's always interesting, we try to figure out what hap what what goes and then try to survive.
PJ Oubre: Hmm. I that is incredible. That is a great story. and and I hope people really embrace that. I've noticed particularly with Awakened Realms, right? They have they've chosen to use a graphic novel form for their campaigns in the Nemesis trilogy.
Nova: Mm-hmm.
PJ Oubre: is that something similar? that you are doing in the story or is it all text? 'Cause you did mention the rule book has a lot of pictures, so is it more of a graphic novel or comic book or is it a just a book of text?
Nova: So there's the other 50% of this company is my very good long-term friend Tanya, and she's an amazing artist. and she has this very unique style that you probably already saw when you were on BoardGameGeek or on the website. And she breathes life into kind of this very absurd story. She makes it believable that there's
PJ Oubre: Mm.
Nova: a dog of two meters standing in front of you. and I would love the that we have more images during the scenario description but she's also just one person and I don't want to burn her out but
PJ Oubre: Right. Sure. Right.
Nova: there will definitely be be images just to if Well, in my in my imagination it would be certain scenes that are very strong and just one location that or a scenario where people talking to each other and it looks well it's evokes a certain emotion that we have one image for that. yeah, so we see how that fizzles out. Maybe she finds that she has three clones and then we can do it as a graphic novel. That would be awesome. Because I I really like everything she does. And she's such a talented person. I'm super happy to have her on the team.
PJ Oubre: So there's I've noticed a trend. Designers like to hide a feature in their games that they really hope people will discover or uncover. is there something like that in Space Dogs that you're really hoping people are gonna be like they're gonna just through play of the game, they're gonna just really grab onto this one feature that you've secretly hidden. Whether it's a story, whether it's a card, whether anything like that.
Nova: Well, personally I really like alternative reality games. I kind of played all of them worldwide.
PJ Oubre: Yeah.
Nova: So I I really like doing the things and I to my friends I always said, I built this website for this one obscure fact that is setting in the Space Dogs universe. the one person that will find it will love it. And I just enjoy doing it and just yeah, bullshitting my my way around kind of yeah, to feel how the universe is because I it helps me write more compelling stories. But yeah, there will be little puzzles or QR codes that you can find that will bring you to somewhere where you can read an excerpt, a poem that Orion wrote to his former family that already is hidden away, so have a look at the maps.
PJ Oubre: Yeah. Okay. is there is there one specific feature in the game that you're really proud of and it's it's it's finished but it it just it brings you the most pride.
Nova: it was not the feature that gave me the most pride in the beginning, but in all the contest competitions that I've been in, the feature that was always held up high the most was the temperament and stance scale, because that is where I got this does not exist yet. This is a very interesting mechanic to play around with just to activate passive bonuses. and kind of to trigger synergies and yeah it kind of shifts and you need to balance it out but then there
PJ Oubre: Mm-hmm.
Nova: are sometimes you need to you you need to become enraged and lose your next turn but it is important for kind of the mission to succeed that you just give it a bit more it kind of I think it makes it relatable because we've all been in situations where we're like, I'm I just want to go to bed. But if I go the extra mile right now, the product will be awesome. Yeah, and I think yeah, that's where I got a lot of very positive feedback for. and I also really I don't know, I like it. It's beautifully designed, it's very easy to to grasp. and the emergent systems that come out of it. because the passive stance that you activate helps your your teammate to achieve something to be better. And
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: that's yeah cool.
PJ Oubre: Alt alternatively, is there something that you really were proud of that you ended up having to cut from this from the game or the system and that you're hoping maybe you can bring back later, either in a different game or in an expansion or something of that nature?
Nova: Well of course there are lots of scenarios that were either not good enough yet or like I already kind of dove into a little bit the entire world building
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: is something that I do mostly for fun because after a full day of developing space dogs I sit at the same spot at the same computer and then think about a different aspect that is not Well, not helping the game at all, it's just fun for me.
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: but yeah, having kind of the universe might help doing an expansion at some point. and I also really like just storytelling, and that is also a very positive win was at some conventions because I like I already pitched it, Space Dogs is a corroborative hex scroller with that winning, and it's a strong focus on the narrative, and I always say that and People just have to believe me. So so what what what am I going to do? Because I am sitting at even if we do have a playtest session at a very loud expo, I am just improvising because for me it's important. There are new people that are into the game and everything is loud. So I kind of talk to them, look them in the eye, move my hands to do the funny voices. But that is not necessarily the written story anymore. so what I did was write a few short stories and print them myself, just for people to have a look. And they took the the the prints and I didn't have any at the end of the day. And every single con, people walk away with them, something that I wrote because they said this is so good, it's worth stealing and I love it
PJ Oubre: It's so good it's worth stealing. that's great.
Nova: Ha ha ha.
PJ Oubre: Was there how did you balance the so again you've talked at great length about the importance of story, it's narrative driven, that's the core, but it's also a game, it's deck building, particularly in a large convention hall that's really loud. How do
Nova: Uh-huh.
PJ Oubre: you balance the the theme of you know maintaining the story at the core? And then the game mechanics. How'd you balance that?
Nova: well I I feel like the hand-drawn aspect of the map really helps and the art aspect, so everything looks very futuristic and over the top. And that draws you in to kind of yeah, uphold the suspension of disbelief. You are not actually playing a game, you're living kind of a bit more, a bit closer, you're walking over the hex fields. and that works quite well I guess because at some point, especially when the storytelling aspect comes into play, I think the the biggest table that I ever played with was eight people because they they kept stopping. And we're like, this looks interesting. Can I join? I was like, yeah, it's cooperative. We all play four players. And you all try to fight me. Just grab a table, come closer. And it was and they there. Because I mean there were lots of people, so other people stopped. But that was very fun. I love that. But yeah, how to combine that with mechanics. I think most deck builders or especially in the common time kind of go they want you to break the game. And I am actively not forbidding this because there are basically runs where a a smart combination of where the tools that are at the disposal of the players and some items that they have and it they they made very smart plays and I don't want to limit that and they
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: were having fun at the table and this is nothing this is it should be prohibited that this is the goal the golden scenario that works for every kind of every mission
PJ Oubre: Sure. Right.
Nova: because but if an item that is only c r discoverable by walking through s to certain chests and roll of the dice basically and then if it turns out good so so be it. I love it.
PJ Oubre: So what is do you have a piece of advice for somebody who's thinking about designing a game? And I I mean, I know you're not launching just yet, you're still working on it, but do you have one piece of advice that you would give to somebody starting out?
Nova: go out, play it with other people. because you get feedback, feedback from non-friends, which is very important, not family, not friends, not people that need to be nice to you because they you will see them tomorrow. there are always, especially I don't know, in Germany, there is basically in every bigger city, there's a a group of game developers that are meeting once a month or something. and it's such a diamond to to have a group of people that you can ask. especially if I don't know there's kind of two big camps, people that are searching rather for publishers or people that are going to become self-published. And of course this is very different roads except for the game mechanics, which is where everybody is insanely helpful. but yeah, pitching a game to publisher is very different than all the extra hoops you have to jump through when going self published. But
PJ Oubre: Right. Yeah.
Nova: even then, there's I don't know at one convention I was pushed into a Discord stream or a Discord channel where there were just a handful of people that are professional rule book editors. And the things they have to say is just great. So yeah, my advice is go out, there are people that are smarter than you, and that's wonderful.
PJ Oubre: Yes. Yep. That is absolutely true. tell me a little bit about the the the just the gaming community in Germany, right? obviously the largest gaming convention in the world is in Essen, coming up here in a few months. so many games have come out of Germany in the modern hobby, right?
Nova: Uh-huh.
PJ Oubre: one it's easy for someone to just assume that It is like at the you know, it's the peak, it's the pinnacle, and it's, you know, mainstream. Tell me a little bit about the community of gamers in the hobby in Germany.
Nova: Well, first of all, there are a lot. well before that, I just need to plug that Space Dogs will also be at Essen. so everyone who's listening right now, come give us a visit. You get a high five and a sticker pack.
PJ Oubre: Hey, there you go.
Nova: but yeah, here I don't know. I think there's something about maybe it's a bit of cliche, but about Germans and rules that you need to follow and who follows
PJ Oubre: Ha ha ha.
Nova: it the best is the winner of the game. so I mean there's there's a reason why it's called Eurogames probably.
PJ Oubre: Yeah, it's true.
Nova: But yeah, there are definitely lots of conventions. Every month I am going somewhere to showcase either Space Dogs or just talk to people, learn something new. and yeah, I think it's also a respite of for people just trying to kind of get by because as I've said in the beginning, the community is just amazing and friendly and it feels warm and cozy to hang out with like-minded people. So yeah, I don't know. Probably it just kicked off because there's a an overhead of people that are here living here and because it became a community, it become became a strong community. I don't know. I don't think it's something about the forests or the not no almost non existent mountains. Probably it's because of that. So people need to imagine their own scenarios.
PJ Oubre: Right, right. Is there is there a board game out there that you think is flying under the radar and that deserves more hype out there right now?
Nova: probably, I mean, so in my group of friends, a board game that we really loved was Detective. It's also a storytelling game by Portal Games, I think. and the way they wrote the story is absolutely stunning. It's exciting and the mechanics they use to introduce an aspect of yeah you don't have enough time and you need to solve the case and it's it's very masterfully done and it captivated us so much that we actually met once a week fully dressed as 80s detectives or whatever the setting was someone brought donuts and there was just yeah so if someone is in for a for a good case, a good story, puzzle and spending time with friends detected is something that I don't know. I I cannot give it more much more cray than it deserves or as much cray as it deserves or whatever it's called.
PJ Oubre: Yeah. So what's your what is your dream table? If you could play space dogs with any four people, dead or alive, who would they be?
Nova: one person would probably be Andy Weir.
PJ Oubre: Yeah.
Nova: Because in the beginning when I was n before before the time where I was doing it full time, I was reading Project Hail Mary, so it was maybe one and a half years ago. And I was on my ebook reader reading a very obscure version of it, but in the end it kind of a hey, this is I did the story, I hope you like it, and then a personal email address. And I was like, this is probably wrong. So I just write them and was like, dude, the way you write characters is so compelling, and I love it so much. And I'm also in the process of writing a fictional story, and I know you like space. If you also like board games, I will send you a copy free of charge just to kind of get it out of screaming into the void basically. But I kid you not, an hour later he replied with post office boxers like I'm I'm looking forward to that. So definitely that guy.
PJ Oubre: Okay. All right. Andy Weir, yes.
Nova: Yeah. And apart from that, I don't know, definitely well the people that are around me that help create this game because it's not I I said it's me and the other fifty percent of pa is Tanya, but I'm living in such a great bubble of people that are encouraging me to yeah, to live this dream. And yeah, that's something so how could I get them off the table?
PJ Oubre: Ha ha ha.
Nova: They are always always invited, even if we're twenty.
PJ Oubre: Yeah. is there a game, role playing or board game, that's had the biggest impact on your life outside of gaming?
Nova: outside of gaming is probably just role-playing games in general. friends and a very good friend of mine and I, we were writing just one-shot episodes for a role-playing game setting that we made up because we were upset with the rules of because we w just wanted to throw some dice and tell story cooperatively. And that brought me way out of my comfort zone to talk to other people and they are talking to you. But I also want to encourage them to talk to each other. And they asked me every single detail about the story. And I'm like, I don't know, man. So I need to come with up come up with something on the spot. so yeah, the stories that I wrote with that person also really helped me kind of to become the person that I am, to overcome this anxiousness, to fail fail often and survive. And yeah, that's something I mean it it sounds so great, so grand because it's just a role-playing game and you're sitting on the table with friends. Of course nobody's going to kill you. But sometimes it feels like it. Or I had when I was growing up, I had the conception that I was unable to be wrong or to fail. And that is something that now I learned differently and I'm very grateful
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: for that.
PJ Oubre: I I don't I don't talk a lot. I mean, there's a space for tabletop role playing and I engage in it myself, but I don't talk about it a lot on the show. Years ago, gosh, twenty five years ago. God, I'm old. was playing Mage the Ascension. was a role playing game by the World of Darkness, White Wolf Publishing. They're no longer in existence. and I was playing this was so I was in my early twenties, and through the dynamics of the different players, we were in a position where someone had to take a leadership role, right? And I, you know, I'm I'm 21, 22 years old. I'm a you know, quiet little scrawny guy, and like my character just kind of naturally was the leader and You talk about getting out of your comfort zone? Yeah, I was not used to like tell you know, directing people and balancing multiple personal objectives and motivations and goals and trying to make sure that everyone's everyone's taken care of and trying to assist everyone in all of their objectives, all the while trying to manage my own. in this huge campaign that ended up being like three or four years, this game went on.
Nova: Ha ha ha.
PJ Oubre: but it really developed a lot of my skills that I think in a lot of ways has led me to this podcast and has
Nova: Mm-hmm.
PJ Oubre: helped me to build a community and interact with people around the world, such as yourself. And I think I can trace it back to playing Mage the Ascension in my twenties. And yeah, I never would have thought I'd be here. 20 something years ago. So there's definitely
Nova: Awesome.
PJ Oubre: a there's definitely a place for role-playing games. And
Nova: Mm-hmm.
PJ Oubre: I need to try to spread the podcast out more. yeah. So so I do I love that. I love tabletop role-playing, and it's always got a special place in my heart. you know, it's usually board games nowadays, but every now and then. So Space Dark seems to be this perfect hybrid of of board gaming, right? You have some deck con deck building and that, but it's it's a cooperative game, but there's role playing 'cause the story, the narrative is at the heart. and it sounds like you are well on your way to achieving that all of your goals in this game. Yeah. Yeah. So
Nova: Yeah, hopefully. I always say, so we are right in the niche between board game and role playing game.
PJ Oubre: Yeah.
Nova: And the twelve people of us that like it love it. But yeah, coming back to your story. Thank you for sharing it. It's very inspiring and
PJ Oubre: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I hadn't thought about it in a while. So yeah. Thanks. Thanks for being the the impetus for bringing that story back to my memory. Yeah. what does
Nova: Lovely. Also
PJ Oubre: at the end of the day, when you finish the design, you launch it on whatever, whether you whether it's a publisher, Kickstarter, GameFound, whatever. and we haven't even talked about that yet. What does success look like for you?
Nova: in general with anyone, not just me. So if I for space stocks,
PJ Oubre: No, for for space dogs, what does success look like for you? Yeah.
Nova: if it's printed, and that means 300 people have to buy it, because
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: then I brought something that I created into this world.
PJ Oubre: Which is huge, right? Yeah. It's
Nova: Yes, that's crazy.
PJ Oubre: it's scary too. absolutely. Absolutely. So what is what's the plan? I know that BoardGameGeek says it's a twenty twenty seven release. are
Nova: Mm-hmm.
PJ Oubre: are are are you planning Kickstarter? Are you pitching it to a publisher? What is the plan?
Nova: Yes, there will be well I'm beyond the phase where I pitched to pick to publishers
PJ Oubre: Okay.
Nova: because it was too niche and I was bringing art and it's not something that sells well in the terms of a publisher. there was one that is or was interested and we're kind of still on talking terms, but Well, if it would be my my my greatest dream if they would be the publisher for North America, because this is insane, the regulations at the moment. I would not like to touch it if I don't have to. yeah, but it will be released probably or most likely via Kickstarter in February. where the campaign will go live, then we need to some months just to finish up the designs and playtests on the the final kind of goal, the final missions, and then print it, ship it worldwide. I have some fulfillment centers already that I wanna work with because they're very nice people and I don't know. For me, it also it's such an overwhelming experience just to go just all the hats that I'm kind of collecting over the past months.
PJ Oubre: Right. Sure.
Nova: so if I have a very nice phone call with someone and they sound like they can handle stuff that's a weight off of my chest.
PJ Oubre: Yeah. yeah. I can only imagine, absolutely. So any anyone who's interested, go ahead.
Nova: Yeah, so the yeah, by if if the stars align and everything works out, then by the end of twenty seven the first people will have space dogs in their shelves and hopefully out of the packaging and on the table.
PJ Oubre: Awesome. Awesome. So for everyone who's interested, it's space dogs. where can they find you and on all the social media?
Nova: well there's spacedogs.rocks, our website, where you get a very good overview and some links and soon the rule book so you can look into it and see if it's overwhelming or not. otherwise we are space dogs underscore game on Instagram where I publish most things and are kind of responsive or attentive to most other social media things. This the entire social media game is crazy for me. I never had a social media account in my life and needed to have one for for this game because a friend of mine who does professional marketing said, you need to go out there. People need to see you with your face, with your voice, because it's your authenticity that sales because never nobody has heard about you or the game. So that was a big step and now I'm kind of doing video interviews or
PJ Oubre: Yeah.
Nova: reading my own short stories to a crowd of people. And it's also been a very interesting feat because on the one hand, we talk about the dangers of social media and that you're comparing to yourself to the people that were born better or just you
PJ Oubre: Right.
Nova: you are comparing your everyday life with the peak shining spotlight moments of some
PJ Oubre: Yeah.
Nova: stranger. And for me it was kind of a very different interaction because I don't know one of the videos three weeks ago that I did super cringe and I just put it out there. I was like the the video I had an idea about what I wanted to tell about, talk about. And I was not I was not Yeah, it was not it didn't feel right the video day. So I scrapped everything and I did that twice. And the third time I was just leave the camera rolling. I will goof around and be me and do funny stuff and talk about the game and cut it, push it online, and I think six seven hundred people saw it. And 30 people liked it. I was it was crazy. I'm like this is someone watches. the shit that I do when I'm on my own and unsupervised and pushes the like button, this is insane. This is more on them than it is on me.
PJ Oubre: It's yes, absolutely, absolutely. well, listen, Nova, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to share your story with me. the game is Space Dogs. Hopefully, it will be launching on Kickstarter February 2027. Be on the lookout for it. and as always, guys, make sure you hit the like and subscribe button but here's a question for you all. what is your favorite narrative driven game? Post it in the comments so that Nova and I can see it and we'll respond. We want to know what games are hitting your table that are focused on story, that are narrative driven. So let us know in the comments below. As always, be kind to each other. Let's play more games.
Nova: Exactly.
