WEBVTT
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Welcome, pool guys, and gals to the Let's Talk About Pools podcast, where your host, Lauren Brood, will take a splash into many topics in the pool industry to educate all aquatic professionals.
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Listen in, and you just might be surprised what you learned.
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So let's jump right in.
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Welcome, all my awesome listeners, today to the Let's Talk About Pools Podcast.
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And on season two, episode 28, I interviewed Ray Arroweste with Aero Insurance Services.
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And this episode's gonna pertain to how pool service techs can really help protect themselves.
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We'll talk about insurance because that's his background as it applies to uh lawsuits and different situations in his very long experience that will definitely help the pool service tech out.
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So I really, really encourage you to listen into this episode and take something away from it with you.
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I've learned a lot listening to Ray.
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He has a lot of information to give.
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And today I'd like to thank both of my podcast sponsors.
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My main podcast sponsor today is Skimmer.
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So check them out for Route Management Software.
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And I also want to say thank you to Vito Mariano with Base Create, my other podcast sponsor today.
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So let's jump right into this episode and see if you guys can walk away with anything awesome from this episode.
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And as always, stay safe and healthy out there in the aquatic world.
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Welcome everybody today to the Let's Talk About Pools Podcast.
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And my episode guest today is Ray Arrow Estee with uh Hub International slash Arrow Insurance.
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He's the senior vice president.
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Welcome today, Ray.
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Well, thank you, Lauren.
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It's good to be here.
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I really wanted to interview you.
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I think this is going to be a great episode for the listeners.
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Um, we're going to be talking about uh claims, insurance, and things pool techs need to be thinking about when it comes to liability.
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Am I correct?
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Well, that sounds yes, you are correct.
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It sounds great.
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You know, for the past three or four decades, I flew around the country doing talks like this at uh trade shows, swimming pool trade shows.
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And since COVID, uh, I'm not too anxious to go to those pool shows anymore.
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So I welcome this opportunity to do this virtually and get get my message out.
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I think it's a great message.
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You and I have talked many a time, um, interviewed you for a lot of my articles, and I've learned a lot from you in this topic.
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So I'm looking forward to bringing your perspectives and you're very well known.
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Um, tell the audience a little bit about yourself and your experience because it's very mind-blowing.
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Your experience.
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My experience is kind of diverse.
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I'll say that.
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For 40 years, um, I had a company called Arrow Insurance Service, and um I sold that company to Hub International five years ago.
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Hub International is the largest independently owned insurance brokerage in the United States.
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It's a multinational company with over 10,000 employees, and I'm a senior vice president of that company.
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I was licensed to practice law in the state of California in 1990, and I was a litigator for 15 years over that 31-year period.
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Along the way, I managed to get a California contractor's license for swimming pool repair.
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And I I held that for about 10 years.
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And uh, in between all of that, I spent 15 years as a commercial avocado grower and producer, which was just kind of a uh a business hobby of mine.
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So I've seen uh I've seen a lot of pool claims, I've seen a lot of litigation, I've seen a lot of contractor issues and even uh concerns when it comes to agricultural concerns as well.
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So uh that's pretty much what I've been doing.
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Uh that's a very, very background, even the avocado.
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Yeah, that's interesting.
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I didn't know that until just now.
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That's very cool.
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So uh we've talked about your title and your background.
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I I knew that that was gonna just you know bring everybody in.
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Ooh, gotta listen to this uh person um because you got so much experience being the litigation side, being a lawyer, you're a pool contractor, like a lot of these listeners are going to be pool tech.
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So it's really you're relevant to them.
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Wanted them to make sure they knew you're relevant, you understand their industry, but you also cover uh some entities in insurance too, correct?
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Well, Arrow Insurance is a division of Hub, and we are exclusively involved in the swimming pool industry.
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Um, I got started in the industry in 1982 when three swimming pool service techs came into my office and they explained to me that they wanted insurance on a group basis for about a hundred guys.
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Uh, that was a that was a group called Calypsa in those days.
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And I was impressed with that group because they had something called a sick route plan.
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And they explained to me that they were all sole proprietors and they all had a similar concern.
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That concern was that if one of them was hurt or in an accident, they would lose their entire route.
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They could be doing 50 pools and everything would be doing great.
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But while they were laying in the hospital, their pools uh would go to someplace else.
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We would go to another pool service company because, at least in Southern California, pools turn green in about 10 days if they're not being serviced.
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So I liked that idea.
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Uh, that appealed to me.
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And uh I agreed that I would work and try to get them some group insurance program.
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And I spent about six months doing that, and uh I did put something together.
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Uh, I did insure Calypsa for about six years, and then Calypsa merged with another association, and that became the Independent Pool and Spa Service Association in 1988.
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I became the uh exclusive insurance provider for IPSA in 1982.
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That's that's about 40 years right now.
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I'm also I'm also the insurance uh the exclusive insurance provider for the swimming pool association of Hawaii and uh the National Plasters Council as well.
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That's a big model.
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That's a big every everything my team does at Hub is swimming pools.
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And over that time I've handled about 3,000 pool-related claims against service technicians, builders, and remodelers.
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So I kind of laugh.
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Um, I kind of laugh sometimes thinking that I'm an expert in this field, but I'm an expert in how to do things wrong because every claim I take is uh more often than not the result of a service tech doing something wrong.
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So if you want to know how to do it wrong, ask me.
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That's an interesting way to think about it, Ray.
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You are an expert in doing things right by comparison.
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So we compliment each other on this uh podcast very well today, right?
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We're different sides of the same coin.
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So you said 3,000 claims.
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Um, what kinds of claims have you been involved with in that 3,000 claims?
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Well, you know, I've seen it all from plaster issues, spalling, etching, modeling, um, all the way up to wrongful death claims.
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Uh we've had claims for house fires.
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Um, I had a$5 million house burn down in Beverly Hills because a heater was improperly installed.
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I could talk a long time about that.
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I've had claims for carbon monoxide poisoning when pool heaters have been incorrectly installed, uh installed and with violations of the city and county code, put under bedroom windows, uh, as I said, plaster damage.
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I've had hillside collapses, I've had floods, mudslides.
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I even had a claim that uh at Frank Sinatra's old house, where a swimming pool tech overflowed a spa on a balcony, flooded out the room where Frank Sinatra's piano was sitting, and we almost had a claim for damage to Frank Sinatra's piano.
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Fortunately, we uh Barbara Sinatra came home, saw the water damage, and called the water um the water removal company, and we we dodged a big one there.
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But that would have been an expensive one.
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That would have been an expense.
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I I've had some very big claims.
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What about like recreational water illness type claims or anything like that?
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Unfortunately, I have not had a um a crypto sporidium case.
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Everybody in the industry is so concerned with crypto, uh, but I have had claims for Staphylococcus and uh folliculitis, swimmer's ear, E.
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coli, and um legionnaires as well.
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I I sometimes joke when I'm giving a lecture, and um I I've said more than once in public that I think there is a requirement when you go to med school to add if there is a bacterial illness or fungal issue with a patient, I think med students are taught to ask the um patient if they were in a swimming pool because they seem to focus on swimming pools.
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And I had one clinic, for example, where a woman presented to her doctor with uh with staphylococcus on her leg.
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And uh the doctor asked if he had if she had been in a hot tub respawn, sure enough, she had.
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And uh he concluded that the staphylococcus was the result of poor water maintenance.
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It was interesting because the staff was was limited to the area between her knee and her ankle.
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And a lay person like me, I think most people would have thought, gee, why the staphylococcus only on the front of her shin?
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Why wouldn't it have been all over her body?
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Well, we got a claim, uh, alleging that the pool tech was negligent for improper water maintenance.
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And uh in the deposition, we discovered that um her roommate also had staphylococcus, and that these two women shared a razor and they shaved their legs with the same razor, and one contracted the staff somewhere, gave it to the plaintiff in my case, who was suing the pool tech, the same razor, passed the staphylococcus to her, and um, but sure enough, they went to the pool tech, and for years I had a blog called Blame It On Pool Tech, and that just seems to be the um the thing we do.
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But you saved that pool tech at that point in time, right?
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I beg your pardon?
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You say he got saved in that one because you guys kind of figured it out in the deposition.
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And once once we found out the women once we found out the women shared a razor, we were dismissed from that.
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Correct.
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That's good.
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Um was a little bit about more like I know we're seeing more legionnaires disease and that kind of thing.
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So any specific example that you could give um that you handled with legionnaires?
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Uh yes, and I'm gonna be talking maybe a little later on about uh about the specific problem with legionnaires.
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I think I think I'd rather defer that till the end of what I'm talking about because Legionnaires is a real specific problem.
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And um, what I'm gonna say today doesn't involve legionnaires, uh, but I want to touch back on that at the end.
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Gotcha.
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So, what are the most common type of claims from pool techs that you get?
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Well, the most frustrating one I've had over the past 40 years has been overfilling of pools and spas.
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You know, I uh I understand we all have a lot in there on our minds, but it is such a common claim when a pool tech is filling a pool that he drives away and forgets to turn off the hose bib.
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And um I I I I still can't figure it out.
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We could have five inches of rain here where I am today, and there wouldn't be a lot of home flooding.
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But when a when a garden hose is left in a pool, for some reason the water runs into the house, and we get tremendous damage from overfills uh in swimming pools.
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We get damage to to carpeting and padding, and then in a warm environment, mold, stagibatris chartarum is the mold that's the most common we see.
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That starts growing within 24 hours, and you have mold remediation that's necessary.
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We have damaged furniture.
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This furniture is made of pressed sawdust frequently, and it's a you have to throw it away because you can't salvage it.
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We get the mold growing on plaster board, so you've got to cut out the drywall and you've got to spray the inside of the walls and take out the insulation.
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Um, I had one, I had a$400,000 claim on an overfill where the water that overfilled the uh pool uh damaged the foundation of the house and the house sank, and they had to put piers underneath.
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It was a$400,000 claim.
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Or sometimes you have the overfilled water goes over a hillside, and that creates a landslide.
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I had one claim where that happened, and then it started raining.
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And this mud from my client's job site ran down the hill into a neighbor's yard and clogged her deck drains, and then it started raining, and the water from the rain couldn't drain through the neighbor's clogged deck drains because they were all covered with mud, and her house flooded.
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So we're just seeing it.
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We just see so many claims with water damage, and there's some there's such an easy way to prevent this.
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And first of all, I don't know how much water you can add in 15 minutes when you're at a job site, but if you have to add water, I've been recommending for years that service techs leave their keys on the hose bib.
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Get a carabiner.
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Years ago, I even made a carabiner would sit hang them on the hose bib.
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We called it a water loss prevention tool.
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People would call up and they'd ask, How do I get the water loss prevention tools?
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Um, but it was basically a carabiner.
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Put a carabiner on your truck keys, hang them on the hose bib.
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Serves two purposes.
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You won't be able to drive away from the job site leaving the water running, and your truck won't get stolen uh by you leaving the keys in the ignition.
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So um, especially, especially for the techs that have employees, I would have a serious conversation on a weekly basis about overfills.
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They're totally preventable.
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So that that really is, I think, my most common claim and the most easily prevented.
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Um the second would be plaster claims.
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Plaster claims are more difficult because, to my way of thinking, plaster starts to deteriorate as soon as you put water in the pool.
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And that's one reason I have a tile pool.
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Um I shouldn't say that, given that my client is the National Plasters Counsel.
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But um, we do see a lot of claims for plaster, and there's a controversy in the industry as to what the fault of that is, whether it's the mix or the aggressive water, or I don't want to get into that because it's a very uh political discussion.
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But one thing I want to talk about when it comes to plaster damage, which kind of breaks my heart, is when a service tech, a good-natured service tech, takes over a new account, uh, particularly in an old pool, and he services the pool for a year or so, and then the customer says, You've damaged my plaster.
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It's stained, it's etched, it just looks bad.
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And who's your insurance company?
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And then I get the call from my service tech who uh tells me that the pool was in bad shape to begin with.
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And I ask him, Well, do you did you document that in any way, shape, or form?
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And he said, No.
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And then we have an uphill battle trying to establish a timeline when there's been no documentation as to progressive and continuing damage.
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It's really frustrating from my sitting in my chair because my job is to defend the pool tech.
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And when I don't have a paper trail or documentation, it's um it's like I'm shooting blanks out of a rifle.
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I can't do anything.
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So I recommend to pool techs taking on new accounts that they establish the nature of that pool, particularly the plaster, before they ever start servicing it.
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And it doesn't have to be really formal.
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They can take a sheet of paper and they can draw out a kidney bean shape if that's the way the pool looks.
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And in the areas where they see damage, put some dots.
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And then the A like for delamination, put some dots, and then the areas where they see copper staining, put some X's, and on the bottom, just put down the edge, the dots, and put down the delamination, the X's, the copper staining, and establish what the pool looks like at the time.
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You don't even have to take a picture, draw a line at the bottom, date it, and ask the customer to initial it.
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Now, 18 months later, when the customer goes to the pool tech claiming that the pool tech damaged the pool, ruined the plaster, all he's got to do is say, Hey, Mrs.
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Pool Owner, Mr.
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Pool Owner.
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Remember when I was here 18 months ago, we talked about the condition of the pool, and you see these dots and X's that were here at the time before I started servicing the pool?
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And the claim goes away.
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Now, I I don't think people are generally uh nefarious or cheaters or liars, but memories fade, particularly when you've had a pool for many, many years.
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It's kind of difficult to establish the date when the pool started going uh bad, particularly because it happens slowly.
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And I think that's one great way a service tech can protect themselves by using that new pool evaluation checklist or diagram, call it what you will.
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And uh again, it's ammunition.
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If I have that, my life is easy and I can get pool guys out of claims.
00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:41.920
So, yes, the most common kinds of claims, water damage, super easy to prevent if it's an overfill, um, and plaster damage.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:47.759
So, what have the been the worst type of claims that you've handled, Ray?
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Right.
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Well, fortunately, the worst claims I get are not the most common, they're the most rare, but they are um really significant.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:04.559
And the one that comes to mind was a claim I had last year uh for an entrapment drowning.
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And this was a heartbreaking case where a service tech maintained a pool, uh residential pool.
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I'm sorry, it was a residential spa, even worse.
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He serviced that spa for two years, and the spa was missing the main drain cover.
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Oh he was there every week.
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He saw that cover and uh he told me that he didn't think the owner would spend the money to replace the cover.
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So he continued servicing that spa week after week after week.
00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:39.680
They had five kids living in the home.
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:51.680
And one day, um, a seven year old went down there to explore that uncovered main drain, put his hand down there, and uh, the equipment was running at the time.
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:57.759
His hand got lodged in the main drain, and uh the other kids couldn't pull them off.
00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:59.759
The mother came out, she couldn't pull them off.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.559
And they all watched the boy drown.
00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:10.799
And um the family filed a lawsuit against uh the pool tech, along with others.
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:17.279
And the theory of liability was that the pool tech was the expert out there.
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:28.799
He knew better than anybody else who was in that backyard what the danger, uh, what the danger was of a of a spa with a missing drain cover.
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:33.279
You know, pool techs hold themselves out to be professionals.
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:45.440
And a homeowner can easily say they've roll they rely on the expertise of the swimming pool service technician to make recommendations like this.
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:47.359
In fact, what's more important?
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:55.839
What is what is more important in the uh in the job description of a service technician than to keep people safe?
00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:03.599
Yeah, they they do that with chemicals, with sanitizer, and and uh keeping the pH in check.
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:07.599
And a main drain we all know represents such a hazard.
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:18.640
So the fact that that technician didn't warn, didn't drop the account, continued to service the account, made it extremely difficult for us.
00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:26.319
And it was a whopping big payout that um resulted from a tragic, tragic situation.
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:30.319
So uh, and it's not the first one I've had.
00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:41.200
Um the other ones were pre-SVRS days and pre-Virginia Grand Baker Pool Safety Act days.
00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:50.640
You know, the uh VGBA only applied to public pools, but it really set a bar, it raised the standard for all pools.
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:59.680
So uh I'm asked sometimes about uh my feelings about extending the Virginia Grand Baker Pool Safety Act to residential pools.
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:13.200
I really don't think we need it because all residential pools today are being built, as far as I know, to the standards um that the VGBA would require if it did apply to residential pools.
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:17.119
There isn't a residential pool today built with a single main drain.
00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:20.880
Um so there you go.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.599
Uh the entrapments are clearly the worst.
00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:32.000
When it when it came to that entrapment that you talked about, that particular situation, what should the pool tech have uh done?
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.839
Well, number one, you start easy.
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:48.720
You start with a conversation with the homeowner and you tell them, you explain to them the extreme hazard that's presented uh as a result of the missing drain cover, and you insist that it has to be replaced.
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:52.960
Um I'm often asked, what do I do?
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:54.480
How do I document?
00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:57.759
And uh what what if the customer doesn't want to?
00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:03.599
So I I divide hazards really into two categories.
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:15.759
There are the little things that it would be nice to fix, um, maybe a drip um from the equipment should be fixed, but it's probably not going to kill anybody.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:31.839
My my rule for all these years has been as follows: if you've got a situation that can foreseeably lead to serious property damage, injury, or death, those hazards have to be corrected.
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:34.640
There is no ifs, ands, and buts.
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:39.359
There's no waiver, there's no release, there's no sign-off.
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:51.680
If the homeowner, if the pool owner will not fix those items that can foreseeably lead to those significant property damage, death or injury, the pool tech has to drop the account.
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:54.880
That is an account he cannot stay with.
00:25:55.279 --> 00:26:03.599
Now, as I lecture around the country, as I used to lecture around the country, someone would raise their hand right now and say, How do I let the customer know?
00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:04.960
Do I have to tell them?
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:07.200
And the answer is yes.
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:12.960
Uh, years ago, I had a pool tech who dropped an account that had an electrical issue.
00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:19.759
He thought there was an electric shock hazard at the pool, and the customer would not pay to fix the problem.
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:21.680
So he dropped the account.
00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:30.400
And six months later, there was an electrocution at the pool and he was sued six months after he dropped the account.
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:43.519
And the pool owner claimed that they had no idea why he dropped the account, that he had an obligation to inform them when he was servicing the account of the dangerous condition, and he failed to do so.
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:54.400
And if he had told them about it, they would have fixed it, and the child who died in the pool would be alive then, would not have been shocked.
00:26:54.960 --> 00:27:05.839
So if a pool tech runs across that situation where that hazard is so great and he has to drop the account, I recommend um putting it in writing.
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:09.440
It doesn't have to be written by a lawyer, it can be simple English.
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:10.160
Mrs.
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:18.400
Jones, after all these years, I regret I have to drop your account, I have to drop your pool because there's a big safety hazard.
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:23.599
And that hazard is your electrical is bad or a missing main drain cover.
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:27.119
Um, and this could lead to someone dying in your pool.
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:29.599
Uh, I suggest you fix this right away.
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:40.720
And you send that letter or something like that letter certified to the customer, and you keep a copy of it forever, because that is your uh get out of jail card.
00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:46.400
Um, but that's that's what you've got to do if you come across a hazard that is so extreme.
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:48.319
I had another big case.
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:53.279
Um well, right, even sending it certified mail would be a good idea, right?
00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:55.279
So that you know that somebody got it.
00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:56.960
Absolutely.
00:27:57.519 --> 00:27:59.599
Yes, certified mail.
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:18.880
Um, I had another I had a death in Texas uh on a carbon monoxide situation where a service tech was maintaining a pool and they had a heater in an enclosed room without a stack to the outside.
00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:30.880
It just had a flat grate and they had some windows that they had open, and they, I guess, thought that those open windows provided adequate ventilation for the carbon monoxide.
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:42.640
I can't imagine why any service tech would go in that room to maintain that equipment, given that there was no operational stack for the carbon monoxide.
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:45.200
But um, but he did.
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:51.200
And a 26-year-old girl on the other side of the wall, one morning they found dead.
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:56.960
And apparently the carbon monoxide weeped through underneath the wall.
00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:00.720
Many homes are built with something called a weep screen.
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:03.119
It's uh it's an area at the bottom of the wall.
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:15.759
If you look underneath with a mirror, you can see like a like um a grate, and it allows moisture to get out of the area between the walls where the insulation is.
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:27.759
Apparently, the carbon monoxide wafted up through that area, got into the house, and uh they found an extremely high level of carbon monoxide in the dead woman's uh blood.
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:32.720
Of course, lawsuit was filed there, settlement was made.
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:42.880
Um the third, the third most serious claims that I get are are drownings, non-entrapment drownings.
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:45.839
And these are tough.
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:53.839
I'm thinking about another one in Texas where this was just a ratty pool.
00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:57.119
Um, they didn't have adequate safety devices.
00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:10.799
There was no shepherd's hook, there was no signage, there was no telephone at this pool as required by code, so that if there was a problem, someone could call uh 911 to get uh first responders there.
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:24.799
There was no rope float between the shallow end and the deep end, there was no fence around the adult pool, there was a kiddie pool, but there was easy access where the kids could move between kiddie pool and adult pool.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:35.440
But what they really hung their hat on when this uh child drowned was they found the depth markers were inaccurately marked.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:42.640
In the area that said four feet, the pool actually measured four and a half feet.
00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:56.880
And their argument to the court was that if that depth marker showed four and a half feet, the true depth of the pool, the child would not have gone to four and a half feet, which was above her head.
00:30:57.200 --> 00:31:04.559
I want to say thank you to Vito Mariano for being a podcast sponsor today of the Let's Talk About Pools podcast.
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:09.839
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00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:12.799
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00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:18.000
So definitely check him out and see what his product is all about.
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:24.000
Now, um, lawsuits are very expensive.
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:27.839
Um, I'm often asked, why do you settle cases?
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:35.920
You know, it can easily cost a quarter of a million dollars to take a case to trial, and if it's a complex case, considerably more than that.
00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:45.599
And even if you do take a case to trial, there uh there's no guarantee you're gonna win, particularly on a case that involves drowning or uh injury of a child.
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:48.000
Um, they're very, very sympathetic cases.
00:31:48.240 --> 00:32:00.559
And so, because of that, because of the cost involved with litigation and the uncertainty of the results of the outcome of the litigation, companies uh consider uh settlement.
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:06.720
And this this drowning case uh in in the public pool in Texas was settled.
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:18.160
But the reason I bring it up is uh uh the obligation on a pool tech to make sure that's a safe environment.
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:28.720
What's what I think too many pool techs think is that their job is confined to the area between the coping, the water.
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:47.440
They skim the surface, they vacuum the bottom, they brush, they maintain proper water chemistry, and occasionally they backwash the filter or clean the filter, and they think that is their job, and they come in and they do it and they leave.
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:54.079
Because in my mind, in their mind, they have satisfied all the elements of the job that they're being paid for.
00:32:54.799 --> 00:33:12.160
Most often the service techs do not work with a service agreement, and here's a problem there's often a disconnect between what the pool owner thinks the service technician's duty is and what the pool tech thinks his duty is.
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:18.640
Pool tech thinks it's maintaining safe water, pool owner thinks it's keeping the pool area safe.
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:22.880
After all, who else knows more about the pool area than the pool tech?
00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:28.799
So you get a situation where the pool tech comes in and he sees these hazards.
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:44.960
Maybe he sees toys around the equipment area, or maybe he goes when he's going to look at the equipment to backwash the filter, he sees that there's an improperly um installed heater underneath a bedroom window.
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:50.799
He thinks, well, I didn't install the equipment, it's not my job.
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:54.000
My job is to maintain the clean water.
00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:58.799
But you assume somebody else's problem, right?
00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:00.880
It's almost as you assume it.
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:06.000
You assume the negligence of others by through your silence.
00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:11.440
The pool tech in most states has an obligation to warn of danger and hazards.
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:23.199
So when he sees that pool heater that is under the bedroom window and improperly vented, he does have an obligation to tell the customer of this and to fix it or leave the job.
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:32.800
Um, or if the pool, if the pool heater is too close to a fence that could cause a fire and um burn down the house, perhaps, and injure people.
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:34.880
He's got he's got that obligation.
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:51.920
So um, I think that's the way cool techs can best avoid some of these claim situations, and it's a recognition that their job is broader than just simply maintaining water, it's keeping that pool area safe.
00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:57.519
And um, I know in my lectures that's the big thing I try to stress.
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:02.800
This is this is really important for service techs that have employees.
00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:15.599
Um, I can talk to the pool owner, and you know, he gets it, but you've got often a different mentality with the service techs, uh, their employees that are going out to these job sites.
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:24.559
So um, you know, those safety meetings that many states require, we call them tailgate meetings, a Tuesday morning tailgate meeting with a cup of coffee.
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:30.719
And these are the kind of things the owners should be talking to their employees about.
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:35.679
Employers have a very, very important interest in doing this.
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:43.280
Their employees are often the weakest link between their financial security and losing it all.
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:51.840
Um, many many service techs operate as sole proprietors, they're not incorporated, which means that all their personal assets are online.
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:54.320
Yeah, they buy insurance.
00:35:54.639 --> 00:36:02.960
I I offer wonderful insurance, but sometimes insurance isn't enough.
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:24.960
If you've got a wrongful death, like um in the uh Palm Springs area a few years ago, there was a bad light in a residential pool, and there were seven, six kids in the pool, and the father was standing on the deck, and he saw one of the children that was the closest to the light shaking from electric shock.
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:31.199
He jumped between the girl and the light, and he was killed from electric shock.
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:38.159
So you take a case like that, an income earner, and is say he's 40 years old.
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:44.000
The man's got 25 years of earnings, and maybe he's earning$100,000 a year.
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:48.000
Uh do the math, it's two and a half million dollars, I think, off the top of my head.
00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:51.199
Um, that's just in the loss of earnings component.
00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:59.679
Now you've got the uh loss of society and the emotional value, and um my goodness, yeah.
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:11.119
I mean, exactly because it costs millions and millions of dollars, and even if you have a good insurance policy that covers you up to a million, um, you still have personal assets at risk.
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:19.760
And when you've got employees that can do things and overlook hazards, these are the kind of things that would keep me awake at night.
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:36.800
Well, and there's so many guys out there, like even when I'm in the face, some of the groups, social media groups, and that kind of thing, they kind of scoff at some of the things like we don't need more of anything like OSHA training or anything like that.
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:39.199
We we handle our chemicals okay.
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:44.239
There's no it's fine in the back of my truck the way I'm driving around with it.
00:37:44.320 --> 00:38:02.480
And I'm sure you've seen a lot of haphazard setups where they're driving around with all these hazardous chemicals on their trucks, and one in case you get stacked very high above the sides of the bed, of course, car accidents waiting to happen, or you know, anything.
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:11.280
So there's certain things that it would be really nice for the industry to switch into it's not being regulated.
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:19.440
They always they think when they hear like OSHA 10 or something, it's regulation, it's no, it's training, it's education.
00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:21.760
We're not saying regulate you for it.
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:27.119
We're not gonna go call OSHA's not gonna come out, they only come out for complaints usually.
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:45.039
So if you don't get any complaints, what the it needs to go toward the training aspect of it, even on that end, because they're driving around, they put the community at risk when they're driving around and they don't really care about doing it properly.
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:46.320
Do you agree, Ray?
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:48.159
I absolutely do.
00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:51.840
And you know, I've I've always thought of my job.
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:59.360
My job is to let business owners, small business owners, succeed.
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:06.880
I'm just an element that gives them the opportunity to have a wonderful retirement someday.
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:26.880
And for those service techs that run uh bigger companies, companies that have employees, I think it's imperative that either they or a trusted manager go around to every pool on their account on a regular basis, maybe it's once a month, to eyeball those pools.
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:51.280
Because I just don't think you can depend on an employee to have the eyes, the broad eyes and the wherewithal and knowledge to recognize what hazards are out there that could come back and create and create a dangerous situation, resulting in injury or death, or a house that burns down, where the business owner can be held responsible.
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:56.400
The business owner or a trusted manager has to eyeball those pools regularly.
00:39:56.719 --> 00:40:07.920
Gee, that's probably why one of the big reasons why public pools are regulated and then they get their random checks from the local regulatory authority.
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:17.760
So that somebody's eyeballing, and you usually that inspector is looking for health and safety, which is what we've been talking about here.
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:20.719
But that does not happen as a residential pool.
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:21.360
Correct.
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:32.480
I was about to say majority of customers uh that our listeners are going to have are going to be residential customers, and there is no regulatory authority at that point.
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:40.159
So they've got to care about what they're doing and be educated and do the right thing and do a good job.
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:43.280
So I know we are putting off to the end a little bit.
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:51.360
You know me, I love that recreational water illness thing, and I really think Legionnaires disease is very interesting.
00:40:51.920 --> 00:41:04.400
So if we could talk a little bit about Legionnaires with like a hot tub or a spa, give us an example of a clothing or anything you've had with that.
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:10.239
Legionnaires is a beast all of its own.
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:17.840
Um, with so many of these water waterborne diseases, whether it be Staphylococcus or E.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:22.079
coli, um, the skin provides protection.
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:29.599
And as long as we don't have an open wound, we're pretty safe going in water that has minimal levels of chlorine.
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:43.280
Uh, by the way, I'm I was told by a microbiologist in the industry that it takes only 0.6 ppm in most cases to kill all these wet, nasty things that can hurt you.
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:44.159
0.6.
00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:52.079
It's a minimal level of chlorine, but the skin provides pretty a pretty good barrier as well.
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:53.840
Legionnaires is different.
00:41:54.000 --> 00:42:02.000
Legion Airs is transmitted um through mist and it's through uh through the respiratory system.
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:16.079
So we inhale the Legionella bacteria through our noses and mouths, and because it's transmitted, uh aerosolized is the term, it's transmitted as a mist.
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:20.480
You get this uh very often in hot tubs.
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:27.840
I had a claim where 18 people uh stated that they got Legionella uh two years ago.
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:31.199
It was a whopping big claim.
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:38.960
Um and the pool, it was a there were over 20 people in this small, small spa.
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:44.400
Um, there was not a controller on the omni spa.
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:56.079
So with and and most insurance companies don't cover Legionnaires' disease because the damages can be so great.
00:42:56.320 --> 00:43:11.360
So the pool the pool tech is kind of on his own when it comes to comes to Legionella claims, and what that means is that the pool tech has to plan for failure, and I think in so many of the cases I have, that's the key.
00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:16.079
You've got to plan what's gonna happen if something goes wrong.
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:25.679
If the feeder stops working and you've got 18 or 20 people in a small spa, what's going to happen?
00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:29.519
We don't want to conclude I'm gonna go bankrupt.
00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:31.280
That's that's not acceptable.
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:32.400
That's not a good answer.
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:35.599
No, that's not so we have to plan for failure.
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:43.840
And what I recommend is on these commercial spas that are getting heavily used, I think there should be a secondary sanitation system.
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:50.559
I think a secondary backup system like UV or Ozone would be a great idea.
00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:59.760
In many communities, they are not going to be permissible as the primary sanitation device, but as a backup.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:05.280
Up if the primary fails, my goodness, what a what a good insurance policy to have.
00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:09.920
I totally agree with you on that a hundred percent.
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:22.880
I know a lot, I know a lot of regulatory codes require that kind of setup, like on splash pads, but they haven't really added it to their regulatory codes for commercial public spas yet.
00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:24.639
So that's an interesting piece.
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:27.440
Right there, we could talk and go on.
00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:41.840
One of the problems, Lauren, is that a lot of the techs are really not um comfortable talking before a uh a residential homeowners association or the board of directors of a large complex.
00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:44.719
It's just not their thing, they don't like doing it.
00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:57.920
But if someone was willing to go in front of the board and explain to them that we are putting, you are putting your financial assets at risk if this one device fails.
00:44:58.159 --> 00:44:59.599
And we should plan for failure.
00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:03.199
We should plan for failure by having a having a secondary source.
00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:22.000
And um I I guess if I have to sum up everything I've been talking about today, um what I would rub, how I would mentor a service tech from the legal and insurance point of view, it would be think broadly.
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:25.280
Your job is goes beyond the water.
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:29.679
You are the one who's entrusted with the safety of that pool area.
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:31.679
So start thinking that way.
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:46.960
If you have employees, not only train them properly, but get a manager yourself and go around and make sure that you don't have super hazardous conditions out there, like a missing main drain cover, because you will be held responsible for those.
00:45:47.679 --> 00:46:00.320
Um, if you're taking on new pools, make a little diagram of the existing damage so you don't get blamed for the previous guy's uh problems.
00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:03.679
And third, and finally, plan for failure.
00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:04.960
Things break.
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:08.000
Seems like they break far more often now than they used to.
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:10.480
And what's going to happen if they break?
00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:14.639
You can't have people die if a piece of machinery breaks.
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:20.719
I always say be proactive instead of reactive when it comes to things like that.
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:22.800
Well, I certainly agree with that.
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:26.239
And and also document, document, document.
00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:37.119
It's it's just like when you work somewhere and you're having an issue with a boss, you're always told get a nice little notebook and you document the date, the time, what they said.
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:40.559
Because if you go to HR, they're gonna want documentation.
00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:44.000
So if you do it in something like that, I'll give you one better, Ryan.
00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:45.119
I'll give you one better.
00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:48.320
I spoke to a gentleman who had uh developed an app.
00:46:48.559 --> 00:46:51.039
Everybody carries around a cell phone.
00:46:51.360 --> 00:47:09.599
And um pool guys don't carry around notebooks regularly, but there are apps out there now that if you see something out there when you're at the pool, you can take a picture, you can document it, you can press a button, you can email it to your pool owner, and there's a paper trail that's in the cloud and it's never going away.
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:18.320
And that's exactly the kind of ammunition that I want and need to provide a vigorous defense to keep uh to keep a pool tech in business.
00:47:18.639 --> 00:47:18.880
Yep.
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:22.880
Emails emails a good uh track record because they can be pulled up.
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:26.639
Any good computer person can bring something up, even if it's deleted.
00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:28.239
It's still there somewhere.
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:29.440
There you go.
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:34.719
So document, document, document, pay attention, do a good job.
00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:42.880
And and basically yeah, be proactive instead of reactive so that you're fits and things before you actually wait.
00:47:43.119 --> 00:47:45.199
Oh, it's gonna break eventually.
00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:48.320
You know, it's just like doing oil changes on your car.
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:53.119
So I thank you so much for being on today, Ray.
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:54.880
Well, thank you.
00:47:56.320 --> 00:48:00.239
Thanks for diving in today with the Let's Talk About Pools Podcast.
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:03.440
Be sure to follow us on our YouTube channel or our Facebook page.
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:11.199
And feel free to rate, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcast so more aquatic professionals like you can learn about the show.
00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:16.719
We appreciate it, and we'll catch you in the next episode of the Let's Talk About Pools podcast.
00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:17.120
Welcome, pool guys, and gals to the Let's Talk About Pools podcast, where your host, Lauren Brood, will take a splash into many topics in the pool industry to educate all aquatic professionals.
00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:20.399
Listen in, and you just might be surprised what you learned.
00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:22.640
So let's jump right in.
00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:29.120
Welcome, all my awesome listeners, today to the Let's Talk About Pools Podcast.
00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:39.119
And on season two, episode 28, I interviewed Ray Arroweste with Aero Insurance Services.
00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:46.240
And this episode's gonna pertain to how pool service techs can really help protect themselves.
00:00:46.640 --> 00:01:02.159
We'll talk about insurance because that's his background as it applies to uh lawsuits and different situations in his very long experience that will definitely help the pool service tech out.
00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:09.040
So I really, really encourage you to listen into this episode and take something away from it with you.
00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:12.719
I've learned a lot listening to Ray.
00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:16.319
He has a lot of information to give.
00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:20.560
And today I'd like to thank both of my podcast sponsors.
00:01:20.719 --> 00:01:23.519
My main podcast sponsor today is Skimmer.
00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:27.840
So check them out for Route Management Software.
00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:34.319
And I also want to say thank you to Vito Mariano with Base Create, my other podcast sponsor today.
00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:41.840
So let's jump right into this episode and see if you guys can walk away with anything awesome from this episode.
00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:47.519
And as always, stay safe and healthy out there in the aquatic world.
00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:51.439
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00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:22.159
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00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:32.240
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00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:51.039
Welcome everybody today to the Let's Talk About Pools Podcast.
00:02:51.120 --> 00:03:00.400
And my episode guest today is Ray Arrow Estee with uh Hub International slash Arrow Insurance.
00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:02.319
He's the senior vice president.
00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:03.919
Welcome today, Ray.
00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:05.199
Well, thank you, Lauren.
00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:06.240
It's good to be here.
00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:08.240
I really wanted to interview you.
00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:11.039
I think this is going to be a great episode for the listeners.
00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:18.000
Um, we're going to be talking about uh claims, insurance, and things pool techs need to be thinking about when it comes to liability.
00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:18.879
Am I correct?
00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:21.520
Well, that sounds yes, you are correct.
00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:22.560
It sounds great.
00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:31.120
You know, for the past three or four decades, I flew around the country doing talks like this at uh trade shows, swimming pool trade shows.
00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:35.280
And since COVID, uh, I'm not too anxious to go to those pool shows anymore.
00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:39.919
So I welcome this opportunity to do this virtually and get get my message out.
00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:41.759
I think it's a great message.
00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:49.680
You and I have talked many a time, um, interviewed you for a lot of my articles, and I've learned a lot from you in this topic.
00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:54.879
So I'm looking forward to bringing your perspectives and you're very well known.
00:03:55.039 --> 00:04:01.520
Um, tell the audience a little bit about yourself and your experience because it's very mind-blowing.
00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:02.560
Your experience.
00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:05.039
My experience is kind of diverse.
00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:05.759
I'll say that.
00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:16.079
For 40 years, um, I had a company called Arrow Insurance Service, and um I sold that company to Hub International five years ago.
00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:21.680
Hub International is the largest independently owned insurance brokerage in the United States.
00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:28.399
It's a multinational company with over 10,000 employees, and I'm a senior vice president of that company.
00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:39.360
I was licensed to practice law in the state of California in 1990, and I was a litigator for 15 years over that 31-year period.
00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:45.040
Along the way, I managed to get a California contractor's license for swimming pool repair.
00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:48.560
And I I held that for about 10 years.
00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:59.199
And uh, in between all of that, I spent 15 years as a commercial avocado grower and producer, which was just kind of a uh a business hobby of mine.
00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:13.199
So I've seen uh I've seen a lot of pool claims, I've seen a lot of litigation, I've seen a lot of contractor issues and even uh concerns when it comes to agricultural concerns as well.
00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:15.279
So uh that's pretty much what I've been doing.
00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:19.680
Uh that's a very, very background, even the avocado.
00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:22.160
Yeah, that's interesting.
00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:24.000
I didn't know that until just now.
00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:25.519
That's very cool.
00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:30.000
So uh we've talked about your title and your background.
00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:33.439
I I knew that that was gonna just you know bring everybody in.
00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:48.000
Ooh, gotta listen to this uh person um because you got so much experience being the litigation side, being a lawyer, you're a pool contractor, like a lot of these listeners are going to be pool tech.
00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:50.639
So it's really you're relevant to them.
00:05:50.879 --> 00:06:00.480
Wanted them to make sure they knew you're relevant, you understand their industry, but you also cover uh some entities in insurance too, correct?
00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:08.319
Well, Arrow Insurance is a division of Hub, and we are exclusively involved in the swimming pool industry.
00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:22.879
Um, I got started in the industry in 1982 when three swimming pool service techs came into my office and they explained to me that they wanted insurance on a group basis for about a hundred guys.
00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:26.800
Uh, that was a that was a group called Calypsa in those days.
00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:31.519
And I was impressed with that group because they had something called a sick route plan.
00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:37.360
And they explained to me that they were all sole proprietors and they all had a similar concern.
00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:43.199
That concern was that if one of them was hurt or in an accident, they would lose their entire route.
00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.480
They could be doing 50 pools and everything would be doing great.
00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:51.519
But while they were laying in the hospital, their pools uh would go to someplace else.
00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:59.920
We would go to another pool service company because, at least in Southern California, pools turn green in about 10 days if they're not being serviced.
00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:01.839
So I liked that idea.
00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:03.839
Uh, that appealed to me.
00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:08.959
And uh I agreed that I would work and try to get them some group insurance program.
00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:14.079
And I spent about six months doing that, and uh I did put something together.
00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:27.199
Uh, I did insure Calypsa for about six years, and then Calypsa merged with another association, and that became the Independent Pool and Spa Service Association in 1988.
00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:33.680
I became the uh exclusive insurance provider for IPSA in 1982.
00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:37.040
That's that's about 40 years right now.
00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:47.759
I'm also I'm also the insurance uh the exclusive insurance provider for the swimming pool association of Hawaii and uh the National Plasters Council as well.
00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:48.959
That's a big model.
00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:55.920
That's a big every everything my team does at Hub is swimming pools.
00:07:56.240 --> 00:08:05.920
And over that time I've handled about 3,000 pool-related claims against service technicians, builders, and remodelers.
00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:07.759
So I kind of laugh.
00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:22.480
Um, I kind of laugh sometimes thinking that I'm an expert in this field, but I'm an expert in how to do things wrong because every claim I take is uh more often than not the result of a service tech doing something wrong.
00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:25.920
So if you want to know how to do it wrong, ask me.
00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:31.279
That's an interesting way to think about it, Ray.
00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.960
You are an expert in doing things right by comparison.
00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:40.240
So we compliment each other on this uh podcast very well today, right?
00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:42.799
We're different sides of the same coin.
00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.240
So you said 3,000 claims.
00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:50.960
Um, what kinds of claims have you been involved with in that 3,000 claims?
00:08:51.279 --> 00:09:02.799
Well, you know, I've seen it all from plaster issues, spalling, etching, modeling, um, all the way up to wrongful death claims.
00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:05.919
Uh we've had claims for house fires.
00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:12.720
Um, I had a$5 million house burn down in Beverly Hills because a heater was improperly installed.
00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:15.039
I could talk a long time about that.
00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:30.720
I've had claims for carbon monoxide poisoning when pool heaters have been incorrectly installed, uh installed and with violations of the city and county code, put under bedroom windows, uh, as I said, plaster damage.
00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:36.320
I've had hillside collapses, I've had floods, mudslides.
00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:54.399
I even had a claim that uh at Frank Sinatra's old house, where a swimming pool tech overflowed a spa on a balcony, flooded out the room where Frank Sinatra's piano was sitting, and we almost had a claim for damage to Frank Sinatra's piano.
00:09:54.720 --> 00:10:05.600
Fortunately, we uh Barbara Sinatra came home, saw the water damage, and called the water um the water removal company, and we we dodged a big one there.
00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:08.320
But that would have been an expensive one.
00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:10.240
That would have been an expense.
00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:12.720
I I've had some very big claims.
00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:17.679
What about like recreational water illness type claims or anything like that?
00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:22.879
Unfortunately, I have not had a um a crypto sporidium case.
00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:33.200
Everybody in the industry is so concerned with crypto, uh, but I have had claims for Staphylococcus and uh folliculitis, swimmer's ear, E.
00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:37.840
coli, and um legionnaires as well.
00:10:38.240 --> 00:11:08.240
I I sometimes joke when I'm giving a lecture, and um I I've said more than once in public that I think there is a requirement when you go to med school to add if there is a bacterial illness or fungal issue with a patient, I think med students are taught to ask the um patient if they were in a swimming pool because they seem to focus on swimming pools.
00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:16.080
And I had one clinic, for example, where a woman presented to her doctor with uh with staphylococcus on her leg.
00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:21.759
And uh the doctor asked if he had if she had been in a hot tub respawn, sure enough, she had.
00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:29.759
And uh he concluded that the staphylococcus was the result of poor water maintenance.
00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:38.480
It was interesting because the staff was was limited to the area between her knee and her ankle.
00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:46.559
And a lay person like me, I think most people would have thought, gee, why the staphylococcus only on the front of her shin?
00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:48.960
Why wouldn't it have been all over her body?
00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:56.879
Well, we got a claim, uh, alleging that the pool tech was negligent for improper water maintenance.
00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:31.519
And uh in the deposition, we discovered that um her roommate also had staphylococcus, and that these two women shared a razor and they shaved their legs with the same razor, and one contracted the staff somewhere, gave it to the plaintiff in my case, who was suing the pool tech, the same razor, passed the staphylococcus to her, and um, but sure enough, they went to the pool tech, and for years I had a blog called Blame It On Pool Tech, and that just seems to be the um the thing we do.
00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:34.799
But you saved that pool tech at that point in time, right?
00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:36.000
I beg your pardon?
00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:40.639
You say he got saved in that one because you guys kind of figured it out in the deposition.
00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:46.399
And once once we found out the women once we found out the women shared a razor, we were dismissed from that.
00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:47.200
Correct.
00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:48.399
That's good.
00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:54.879
Um was a little bit about more like I know we're seeing more legionnaires disease and that kind of thing.
00:12:55.039 --> 00:13:00.399
So any specific example that you could give um that you handled with legionnaires?
00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:10.080
Uh yes, and I'm gonna be talking maybe a little later on about uh about the specific problem with legionnaires.
00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:18.559
I think I think I'd rather defer that till the end of what I'm talking about because Legionnaires is a real specific problem.
00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:26.799
And um, what I'm gonna say today doesn't involve legionnaires, uh, but I want to touch back on that at the end.
00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:27.840
Gotcha.
00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:33.039
So, what are the most common type of claims from pool techs that you get?
00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:40.399
Well, the most frustrating one I've had over the past 40 years has been overfilling of pools and spas.
00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:54.000
You know, I uh I understand we all have a lot in there on our minds, but it is such a common claim when a pool tech is filling a pool that he drives away and forgets to turn off the hose bib.
00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:59.600
And um I I I I still can't figure it out.
00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:05.200
We could have five inches of rain here where I am today, and there wouldn't be a lot of home flooding.
00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:16.080
But when a when a garden hose is left in a pool, for some reason the water runs into the house, and we get tremendous damage from overfills uh in swimming pools.
00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:26.320
We get damage to to carpeting and padding, and then in a warm environment, mold, stagibatris chartarum is the mold that's the most common we see.
00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:31.360
That starts growing within 24 hours, and you have mold remediation that's necessary.
00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:32.960
We have damaged furniture.
00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:40.000
This furniture is made of pressed sawdust frequently, and it's a you have to throw it away because you can't salvage it.
00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:49.120
We get the mold growing on plaster board, so you've got to cut out the drywall and you've got to spray the inside of the walls and take out the insulation.
00:14:49.759 --> 00:15:05.600
Um, I had one, I had a$400,000 claim on an overfill where the water that overfilled the uh pool uh damaged the foundation of the house and the house sank, and they had to put piers underneath.
00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:07.759
It was a$400,000 claim.
00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:13.360
Or sometimes you have the overfilled water goes over a hillside, and that creates a landslide.
00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:17.279
I had one claim where that happened, and then it started raining.
00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:37.759
And this mud from my client's job site ran down the hill into a neighbor's yard and clogged her deck drains, and then it started raining, and the water from the rain couldn't drain through the neighbor's clogged deck drains because they were all covered with mud, and her house flooded.
00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:40.960
So we're just seeing it.
00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:48.960
We just see so many claims with water damage, and there's some there's such an easy way to prevent this.
00:15:49.200 --> 00:16:02.080
And first of all, I don't know how much water you can add in 15 minutes when you're at a job site, but if you have to add water, I've been recommending for years that service techs leave their keys on the hose bib.
00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:03.679
Get a carabiner.
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:08.000
Years ago, I even made a carabiner would sit hang them on the hose bib.
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:10.720
We called it a water loss prevention tool.
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:14.960
People would call up and they'd ask, How do I get the water loss prevention tools?
00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:17.200
Um, but it was basically a carabiner.
00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:20.960
Put a carabiner on your truck keys, hang them on the hose bib.
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:22.879
Serves two purposes.
00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:31.840
You won't be able to drive away from the job site leaving the water running, and your truck won't get stolen uh by you leaving the keys in the ignition.
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:42.080
So um, especially, especially for the techs that have employees, I would have a serious conversation on a weekly basis about overfills.
00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:43.919
They're totally preventable.
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:50.879
So that that really is, I think, my most common claim and the most easily prevented.
00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:55.039
Um the second would be plaster claims.
00:16:55.519 --> 00:17:04.799
Plaster claims are more difficult because, to my way of thinking, plaster starts to deteriorate as soon as you put water in the pool.
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:07.519
And that's one reason I have a tile pool.
00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:13.759
Um I shouldn't say that, given that my client is the National Plasters Counsel.
00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:29.920
But um, we do see a lot of claims for plaster, and there's a controversy in the industry as to what the fault of that is, whether it's the mix or the aggressive water, or I don't want to get into that because it's a very uh political discussion.
00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:49.839
But one thing I want to talk about when it comes to plaster damage, which kind of breaks my heart, is when a service tech, a good-natured service tech, takes over a new account, uh, particularly in an old pool, and he services the pool for a year or so, and then the customer says, You've damaged my plaster.
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:54.559
It's stained, it's etched, it just looks bad.
00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:57.279
And who's your insurance company?
00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:04.559
And then I get the call from my service tech who uh tells me that the pool was in bad shape to begin with.
00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:10.640
And I ask him, Well, do you did you document that in any way, shape, or form?
00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:12.240
And he said, No.
00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:22.000
And then we have an uphill battle trying to establish a timeline when there's been no documentation as to progressive and continuing damage.
00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:28.400
It's really frustrating from my sitting in my chair because my job is to defend the pool tech.
00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:36.079
And when I don't have a paper trail or documentation, it's um it's like I'm shooting blanks out of a rifle.
00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:38.160
I can't do anything.
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:50.000
So I recommend to pool techs taking on new accounts that they establish the nature of that pool, particularly the plaster, before they ever start servicing it.
00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:52.240
And it doesn't have to be really formal.
00:18:52.400 --> 00:19:00.400
They can take a sheet of paper and they can draw out a kidney bean shape if that's the way the pool looks.
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:04.880
And in the areas where they see damage, put some dots.
00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:22.880
And then the A like for delamination, put some dots, and then the areas where they see copper staining, put some X's, and on the bottom, just put down the edge, the dots, and put down the delamination, the X's, the copper staining, and establish what the pool looks like at the time.
00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:28.240
You don't even have to take a picture, draw a line at the bottom, date it, and ask the customer to initial it.
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:39.039
Now, 18 months later, when the customer goes to the pool tech claiming that the pool tech damaged the pool, ruined the plaster, all he's got to do is say, Hey, Mrs.
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:40.400
Pool Owner, Mr.
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:41.279
Pool Owner.
00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:50.799
Remember when I was here 18 months ago, we talked about the condition of the pool, and you see these dots and X's that were here at the time before I started servicing the pool?
00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:52.400
And the claim goes away.
00:19:52.640 --> 00:20:04.960
Now, I I don't think people are generally uh nefarious or cheaters or liars, but memories fade, particularly when you've had a pool for many, many years.
00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:13.440
It's kind of difficult to establish the date when the pool started going uh bad, particularly because it happens slowly.
00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:23.440
And I think that's one great way a service tech can protect themselves by using that new pool evaluation checklist or diagram, call it what you will.
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:25.680
And uh again, it's ammunition.
00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:31.359
If I have that, my life is easy and I can get pool guys out of claims.
00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:41.920
So, yes, the most common kinds of claims, water damage, super easy to prevent if it's an overfill, um, and plaster damage.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:47.759
So, what have the been the worst type of claims that you've handled, Ray?
00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:48.640
Right.
00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:57.519
Well, fortunately, the worst claims I get are not the most common, they're the most rare, but they are um really significant.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:04.559
And the one that comes to mind was a claim I had last year uh for an entrapment drowning.
00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:11.920
And this was a heartbreaking case where a service tech maintained a pool, uh residential pool.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:15.680
I'm sorry, it was a residential spa, even worse.
00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:20.720
He serviced that spa for two years, and the spa was missing the main drain cover.
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:24.240
Oh he was there every week.
00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:32.720
He saw that cover and uh he told me that he didn't think the owner would spend the money to replace the cover.
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:36.960
So he continued servicing that spa week after week after week.
00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:39.680
They had five kids living in the home.
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:51.680
And one day, um, a seven year old went down there to explore that uncovered main drain, put his hand down there, and uh, the equipment was running at the time.
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:57.759
His hand got lodged in the main drain, and uh the other kids couldn't pull them off.
00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:59.759
The mother came out, she couldn't pull them off.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.559
And they all watched the boy drown.
00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:10.799
And um the family filed a lawsuit against uh the pool tech, along with others.
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:17.279
And the theory of liability was that the pool tech was the expert out there.
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:28.799
He knew better than anybody else who was in that backyard what the danger, uh, what the danger was of a of a spa with a missing drain cover.
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:33.279
You know, pool techs hold themselves out to be professionals.
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:45.440
And a homeowner can easily say they've roll they rely on the expertise of the swimming pool service technician to make recommendations like this.
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:47.359
In fact, what's more important?
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:55.839
What is what is more important in the uh in the job description of a service technician than to keep people safe?
00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:03.599
Yeah, they they do that with chemicals, with sanitizer, and and uh keeping the pH in check.
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:07.599
And a main drain we all know represents such a hazard.
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:18.640
So the fact that that technician didn't warn, didn't drop the account, continued to service the account, made it extremely difficult for us.
00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:26.319
And it was a whopping big payout that um resulted from a tragic, tragic situation.
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:30.319
So uh, and it's not the first one I've had.
00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:41.200
Um the other ones were pre-SVRS days and pre-Virginia Grand Baker Pool Safety Act days.
00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:50.640
You know, the uh VGBA only applied to public pools, but it really set a bar, it raised the standard for all pools.
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:59.680
So uh I'm asked sometimes about uh my feelings about extending the Virginia Grand Baker Pool Safety Act to residential pools.
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:13.200
I really don't think we need it because all residential pools today are being built, as far as I know, to the standards um that the VGBA would require if it did apply to residential pools.
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:17.119
There isn't a residential pool today built with a single main drain.
00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:20.880
Um so there you go.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.599
Uh the entrapments are clearly the worst.
00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:32.000
When it when it came to that entrapment that you talked about, that particular situation, what should the pool tech have uh done?
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.839
Well, number one, you start easy.
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:48.720
You start with a conversation with the homeowner and you tell them, you explain to them the extreme hazard that's presented uh as a result of the missing drain cover, and you insist that it has to be replaced.
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:52.960
Um I'm often asked, what do I do?
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:54.480
How do I document?
00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:57.759
And uh what what if the customer doesn't want to?
00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:03.599
So I I divide hazards really into two categories.
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:15.759
There are the little things that it would be nice to fix, um, maybe a drip um from the equipment should be fixed, but it's probably not going to kill anybody.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:31.839
My my rule for all these years has been as follows: if you've got a situation that can foreseeably lead to serious property damage, injury, or death, those hazards have to be corrected.
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:34.640
There is no ifs, ands, and buts.
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:39.359
There's no waiver, there's no release, there's no sign-off.
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:51.680
If the homeowner, if the pool owner will not fix those items that can foreseeably lead to those significant property damage, death or injury, the pool tech has to drop the account.
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:54.880
That is an account he cannot stay with.
00:25:55.279 --> 00:26:03.599
Now, as I lecture around the country, as I used to lecture around the country, someone would raise their hand right now and say, How do I let the customer know?
00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:04.960
Do I have to tell them?
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:07.200
And the answer is yes.
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:12.960
Uh, years ago, I had a pool tech who dropped an account that had an electrical issue.
00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:19.759
He thought there was an electric shock hazard at the pool, and the customer would not pay to fix the problem.
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:21.680
So he dropped the account.
00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:30.400
And six months later, there was an electrocution at the pool and he was sued six months after he dropped the account.
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:43.519
And the pool owner claimed that they had no idea why he dropped the account, that he had an obligation to inform them when he was servicing the account of the dangerous condition, and he failed to do so.
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:54.400
And if he had told them about it, they would have fixed it, and the child who died in the pool would be alive then, would not have been shocked.
00:26:54.960 --> 00:27:05.839
So if a pool tech runs across that situation where that hazard is so great and he has to drop the account, I recommend um putting it in writing.
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:09.440
It doesn't have to be written by a lawyer, it can be simple English.
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:10.160
Mrs.
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:18.400
Jones, after all these years, I regret I have to drop your account, I have to drop your pool because there's a big safety hazard.
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:23.599
And that hazard is your electrical is bad or a missing main drain cover.
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:27.119
Um, and this could lead to someone dying in your pool.
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:29.599
Uh, I suggest you fix this right away.
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:40.720
And you send that letter or something like that letter certified to the customer, and you keep a copy of it forever, because that is your uh get out of jail card.
00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:46.400
Um, but that's that's what you've got to do if you come across a hazard that is so extreme.
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:48.319
I had another big case.
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:53.279
Um well, right, even sending it certified mail would be a good idea, right?
00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:55.279
So that you know that somebody got it.
00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:56.960
Absolutely.
00:27:57.519 --> 00:27:59.599
Yes, certified mail.
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:18.880
Um, I had another I had a death in Texas uh on a carbon monoxide situation where a service tech was maintaining a pool and they had a heater in an enclosed room without a stack to the outside.
00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:30.880
It just had a flat grate and they had some windows that they had open, and they, I guess, thought that those open windows provided adequate ventilation for the carbon monoxide.
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:42.640
I can't imagine why any service tech would go in that room to maintain that equipment, given that there was no operational stack for the carbon monoxide.
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:45.200
But um, but he did.
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:51.200
And a 26-year-old girl on the other side of the wall, one morning they found dead.
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:56.960
And apparently the carbon monoxide weeped through underneath the wall.
00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:00.720
Many homes are built with something called a weep screen.
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:03.119
It's uh it's an area at the bottom of the wall.
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:15.759
If you look underneath with a mirror, you can see like a like um a grate, and it allows moisture to get out of the area between the walls where the insulation is.
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:27.759
Apparently, the carbon monoxide wafted up through that area, got into the house, and uh they found an extremely high level of carbon monoxide in the dead woman's uh blood.
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:32.720
Of course, lawsuit was filed there, settlement was made.
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:42.880
Um the third, the third most serious claims that I get are are drownings, non-entrapment drownings.
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:45.839
And these are tough.
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:53.839
I'm thinking about another one in Texas where this was just a ratty pool.
00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:57.119
Um, they didn't have adequate safety devices.
00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:10.799
There was no shepherd's hook, there was no signage, there was no telephone at this pool as required by code, so that if there was a problem, someone could call uh 911 to get uh first responders there.
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:24.799
There was no rope float between the shallow end and the deep end, there was no fence around the adult pool, there was a kiddie pool, but there was easy access where the kids could move between kiddie pool and adult pool.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:35.440
But what they really hung their hat on when this uh child drowned was they found the depth markers were inaccurately marked.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:42.640
In the area that said four feet, the pool actually measured four and a half feet.
00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:56.880
And their argument to the court was that if that depth marker showed four and a half feet, the true depth of the pool, the child would not have gone to four and a half feet, which was above her head.
00:30:57.200 --> 00:31:04.559
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00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:18.000
So definitely check him out and see what his product is all about.
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:24.000
Now, um, lawsuits are very expensive.
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:27.839
Um, I'm often asked, why do you settle cases?
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:35.920
You know, it can easily cost a quarter of a million dollars to take a case to trial, and if it's a complex case, considerably more than that.
00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:45.599
And even if you do take a case to trial, there uh there's no guarantee you're gonna win, particularly on a case that involves drowning or uh injury of a child.
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:48.000
Um, they're very, very sympathetic cases.
00:31:48.240 --> 00:32:00.559
And so, because of that, because of the cost involved with litigation and the uncertainty of the results of the outcome of the litigation, companies uh consider uh settlement.
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:06.720
And this this drowning case uh in in the public pool in Texas was settled.
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:18.160
But the reason I bring it up is uh uh the obligation on a pool tech to make sure that's a safe environment.
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:28.720
What's what I think too many pool techs think is that their job is confined to the area between the coping, the water.
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:47.440
They skim the surface, they vacuum the bottom, they brush, they maintain proper water chemistry, and occasionally they backwash the filter or clean the filter, and they think that is their job, and they come in and they do it and they leave.
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:54.079
Because in my mind, in their mind, they have satisfied all the elements of the job that they're being paid for.
00:32:54.799 --> 00:33:12.160
Most often the service techs do not work with a service agreement, and here's a problem there's often a disconnect between what the pool owner thinks the service technician's duty is and what the pool tech thinks his duty is.
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:18.640
Pool tech thinks it's maintaining safe water, pool owner thinks it's keeping the pool area safe.
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:22.880
After all, who else knows more about the pool area than the pool tech?
00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:28.799
So you get a situation where the pool tech comes in and he sees these hazards.
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:44.960
Maybe he sees toys around the equipment area, or maybe he goes when he's going to look at the equipment to backwash the filter, he sees that there's an improperly um installed heater underneath a bedroom window.
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:50.799
He thinks, well, I didn't install the equipment, it's not my job.
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:54.000
My job is to maintain the clean water.
00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:58.799
But you assume somebody else's problem, right?
00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:00.880
It's almost as you assume it.
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:06.000
You assume the negligence of others by through your silence.
00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:11.440
The pool tech in most states has an obligation to warn of danger and hazards.
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:23.199
So when he sees that pool heater that is under the bedroom window and improperly vented, he does have an obligation to tell the customer of this and to fix it or leave the job.
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:32.800
Um, or if the pool, if the pool heater is too close to a fence that could cause a fire and um burn down the house, perhaps, and injure people.
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:34.880
He's got he's got that obligation.
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:51.920
So um, I think that's the way cool techs can best avoid some of these claim situations, and it's a recognition that their job is broader than just simply maintaining water, it's keeping that pool area safe.
00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:57.519
And um, I know in my lectures that's the big thing I try to stress.
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:02.800
This is this is really important for service techs that have employees.
00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:15.599
Um, I can talk to the pool owner, and you know, he gets it, but you've got often a different mentality with the service techs, uh, their employees that are going out to these job sites.
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:24.559
So um, you know, those safety meetings that many states require, we call them tailgate meetings, a Tuesday morning tailgate meeting with a cup of coffee.
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:30.719
And these are the kind of things the owners should be talking to their employees about.
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:35.679
Employers have a very, very important interest in doing this.
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:43.280
Their employees are often the weakest link between their financial security and losing it all.
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:51.840
Um, many many service techs operate as sole proprietors, they're not incorporated, which means that all their personal assets are online.
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:54.320
Yeah, they buy insurance.
00:35:54.639 --> 00:36:02.960
I I offer wonderful insurance, but sometimes insurance isn't enough.
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:24.960
If you've got a wrongful death, like um in the uh Palm Springs area a few years ago, there was a bad light in a residential pool, and there were seven, six kids in the pool, and the father was standing on the deck, and he saw one of the children that was the closest to the light shaking from electric shock.
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:31.199
He jumped between the girl and the light, and he was killed from electric shock.
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:38.159
So you take a case like that, an income earner, and is say he's 40 years old.
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:44.000
The man's got 25 years of earnings, and maybe he's earning$100,000 a year.
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:48.000
Uh do the math, it's two and a half million dollars, I think, off the top of my head.
00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:51.199
Um, that's just in the loss of earnings component.
00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:59.679
Now you've got the uh loss of society and the emotional value, and um my goodness, yeah.
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:11.119
I mean, exactly because it costs millions and millions of dollars, and even if you have a good insurance policy that covers you up to a million, um, you still have personal assets at risk.
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:19.760
And when you've got employees that can do things and overlook hazards, these are the kind of things that would keep me awake at night.
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:36.800
Well, and there's so many guys out there, like even when I'm in the face, some of the groups, social media groups, and that kind of thing, they kind of scoff at some of the things like we don't need more of anything like OSHA training or anything like that.
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:39.199
We we handle our chemicals okay.
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:44.239
There's no it's fine in the back of my truck the way I'm driving around with it.
00:37:44.320 --> 00:38:02.480
And I'm sure you've seen a lot of haphazard setups where they're driving around with all these hazardous chemicals on their trucks, and one in case you get stacked very high above the sides of the bed, of course, car accidents waiting to happen, or you know, anything.
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:11.280
So there's certain things that it would be really nice for the industry to switch into it's not being regulated.
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:19.440
They always they think when they hear like OSHA 10 or something, it's regulation, it's no, it's training, it's education.
00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:21.760
We're not saying regulate you for it.
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:27.119
We're not gonna go call OSHA's not gonna come out, they only come out for complaints usually.
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:45.039
So if you don't get any complaints, what the it needs to go toward the training aspect of it, even on that end, because they're driving around, they put the community at risk when they're driving around and they don't really care about doing it properly.
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:46.320
Do you agree, Ray?
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:48.159
I absolutely do.
00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:51.840
And you know, I've I've always thought of my job.
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:59.360
My job is to let business owners, small business owners, succeed.
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:06.880
I'm just an element that gives them the opportunity to have a wonderful retirement someday.
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:26.880
And for those service techs that run uh bigger companies, companies that have employees, I think it's imperative that either they or a trusted manager go around to every pool on their account on a regular basis, maybe it's once a month, to eyeball those pools.
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:51.280
Because I just don't think you can depend on an employee to have the eyes, the broad eyes and the wherewithal and knowledge to recognize what hazards are out there that could come back and create and create a dangerous situation, resulting in injury or death, or a house that burns down, where the business owner can be held responsible.
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:56.400
The business owner or a trusted manager has to eyeball those pools regularly.
00:39:56.719 --> 00:40:07.920
Gee, that's probably why one of the big reasons why public pools are regulated and then they get their random checks from the local regulatory authority.
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:17.760
So that somebody's eyeballing, and you usually that inspector is looking for health and safety, which is what we've been talking about here.
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:20.719
But that does not happen as a residential pool.
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:21.360
Correct.
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:32.480
I was about to say majority of customers uh that our listeners are going to have are going to be residential customers, and there is no regulatory authority at that point.
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:40.159
So they've got to care about what they're doing and be educated and do the right thing and do a good job.
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:43.280
So I know we are putting off to the end a little bit.
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:51.360
You know me, I love that recreational water illness thing, and I really think Legionnaires disease is very interesting.
00:40:51.920 --> 00:41:04.400
So if we could talk a little bit about Legionnaires with like a hot tub or a spa, give us an example of a clothing or anything you've had with that.
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:10.239
Legionnaires is a beast all of its own.
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:17.840
Um, with so many of these water waterborne diseases, whether it be Staphylococcus or E.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:22.079
coli, um, the skin provides protection.
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:29.599
And as long as we don't have an open wound, we're pretty safe going in water that has minimal levels of chlorine.
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:43.280
Uh, by the way, I'm I was told by a microbiologist in the industry that it takes only 0.6 ppm in most cases to kill all these wet, nasty things that can hurt you.
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:44.159
0.6.
00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:52.079
It's a minimal level of chlorine, but the skin provides pretty a pretty good barrier as well.
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:53.840
Legionnaires is different.
00:41:54.000 --> 00:42:02.000
Legion Airs is transmitted um through mist and it's through uh through the respiratory system.
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:16.079
So we inhale the Legionella bacteria through our noses and mouths, and because it's transmitted, uh aerosolized is the term, it's transmitted as a mist.
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:20.480
You get this uh very often in hot tubs.
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:27.840
I had a claim where 18 people uh stated that they got Legionella uh two years ago.
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:31.199
It was a whopping big claim.
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:38.960
Um and the pool, it was a there were over 20 people in this small, small spa.
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:44.400
Um, there was not a controller on the omni spa.
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:56.079
So with and and most insurance companies don't cover Legionnaires' disease because the damages can be so great.
00:42:56.320 --> 00:43:11.360
So the pool the pool tech is kind of on his own when it comes to comes to Legionella claims, and what that means is that the pool tech has to plan for failure, and I think in so many of the cases I have, that's the key.
00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:16.079
You've got to plan what's gonna happen if something goes wrong.
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:25.679
If the feeder stops working and you've got 18 or 20 people in a small spa, what's going to happen?
00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:29.519
We don't want to conclude I'm gonna go bankrupt.
00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:31.280
That's that's not acceptable.
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:32.400
That's not a good answer.
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:35.599
No, that's not so we have to plan for failure.
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:43.840
And what I recommend is on these commercial spas that are getting heavily used, I think there should be a secondary sanitation system.
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:50.559
I think a secondary backup system like UV or Ozone would be a great idea.
00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:59.760
In many communities, they are not going to be permissible as the primary sanitation device, but as a backup.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:05.280
Up if the primary fails, my goodness, what a what a good insurance policy to have.
00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:09.920
I totally agree with you on that a hundred percent.
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:22.880
I know a lot, I know a lot of regulatory codes require that kind of setup, like on splash pads, but they haven't really added it to their regulatory codes for commercial public spas yet.
00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:24.639
So that's an interesting piece.
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:27.440
Right there, we could talk and go on.
00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:41.840
One of the problems, Lauren, is that a lot of the techs are really not um comfortable talking before a uh a residential homeowners association or the board of directors of a large complex.
00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:44.719
It's just not their thing, they don't like doing it.
00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:57.920
But if someone was willing to go in front of the board and explain to them that we are putting, you are putting your financial assets at risk if this one device fails.
00:44:58.159 --> 00:44:59.599
And we should plan for failure.
00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:03.199
We should plan for failure by having a having a secondary source.
00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:22.000
And um I I guess if I have to sum up everything I've been talking about today, um what I would rub, how I would mentor a service tech from the legal and insurance point of view, it would be think broadly.
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:25.280
Your job is goes beyond the water.
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:29.679
You are the one who's entrusted with the safety of that pool area.
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:31.679
So start thinking that way.
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:46.960
If you have employees, not only train them properly, but get a manager yourself and go around and make sure that you don't have super hazardous conditions out there, like a missing main drain cover, because you will be held responsible for those.
00:45:47.679 --> 00:46:00.320
Um, if you're taking on new pools, make a little diagram of the existing damage so you don't get blamed for the previous guy's uh problems.
00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:03.679
And third, and finally, plan for failure.
00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:04.960
Things break.
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:08.000
Seems like they break far more often now than they used to.
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:10.480
And what's going to happen if they break?
00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:14.639
You can't have people die if a piece of machinery breaks.
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:20.719
I always say be proactive instead of reactive when it comes to things like that.
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:22.800
Well, I certainly agree with that.
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:26.239
And and also document, document, document.
00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:37.119
It's it's just like when you work somewhere and you're having an issue with a boss, you're always told get a nice little notebook and you document the date, the time, what they said.
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:40.559
Because if you go to HR, they're gonna want documentation.
00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:44.000
So if you do it in something like that, I'll give you one better, Ryan.
00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:45.119
I'll give you one better.
00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:48.320
I spoke to a gentleman who had uh developed an app.
00:46:48.559 --> 00:46:51.039
Everybody carries around a cell phone.
00:46:51.360 --> 00:47:09.599
And um pool guys don't carry around notebooks regularly, but there are apps out there now that if you see something out there when you're at the pool, you can take a picture, you can document it, you can press a button, you can email it to your pool owner, and there's a paper trail that's in the cloud and it's never going away.
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:18.320
And that's exactly the kind of ammunition that I want and need to provide a vigorous defense to keep uh to keep a pool tech in business.
00:47:18.639 --> 00:47:18.880
Yep.
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:22.880
Emails emails a good uh track record because they can be pulled up.
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:26.639
Any good computer person can bring something up, even if it's deleted.
00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:28.239
It's still there somewhere.
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:29.440
There you go.
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:34.719
So document, document, document, pay attention, do a good job.
00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:42.880
And and basically yeah, be proactive instead of reactive so that you're fits and things before you actually wait.
00:47:43.119 --> 00:47:45.199
Oh, it's gonna break eventually.
00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:48.320
You know, it's just like doing oil changes on your car.
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:53.119
So I thank you so much for being on today, Ray.
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:54.880
Well, thank you.
00:47:56.320 --> 00:48:00.239
Thanks for diving in today with the Let's Talk About Pools Podcast.
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:03.440
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00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:11.199
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00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:16.719
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