Zach Kidd: Welcome to Lacking Wisdom.
Zach Lundberg: This podcast started with a simple realization we don't have all the answers.
Zach Kidd: Not even close, but we do love the scriptures, and we believe God still speaks to people who ask him.
Zach Lundberg: The name lacking wisdom comes from a verse in James If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God. Those words led a young Joseph Smith to kneel down in prayer and ask God which church was true. That prayer helped start the restoration.
Zach Kidd: And it raises a question for the rest of us what happens when we ask God for wisdom?
Zach Lundberg: So each week we open the scriptures together, the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and other restoration scripture, and we wrestle with them. Not as scholars, not as experts, just as two disciples trying to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ a little bit better.
Zach Kidd: Sometimes we'll find answers, sometimes we'll leave with more questions. But that's part of the journey.
Zach Lundberg: If you've ever read the scriptures and thought, What does this actually mean? Or how does this apply to my life? You're not alone.
Zach Kidd: So come study with us. Come wrestle with the word. And if you happen to be lacking wisdom, let's ask God.
Zach Lundberg: Let's ask God. This is lacking wisdom.
Zach Kidd: Here we are. We've made it.
Zach Lundberg: Welcome to Lacking Wisdom.
Zach Kidd: Was Zach and Zach?
Zach Lundberg: with Zach and Zach.
Zach Kidd: Yep. We're here.
Zach Lundberg: Third time's a charm.
Zach Kidd: Yep. Third third go at it. opposition to all things, so
Zach Lundberg: If you're hearing this, ultimately it was good that we published it. We have tried to record this twice and for different reasons. Tech, technology stuff, it hasn't worked and the internet's crapped out and you name it. So if you're hearing this and we're publishing it, then the message must have gotten through and... Well, I'm honestly giving up on it if our technology craps on us again this third time. So we better get the message across quickly.
Zach Kidd: L let's get to it. should be should be really fun conversation today. which is probably why there's the opposition. so the question of the d of the day where we're lacking wisdom.
Zach Lundberg: Hmm.
Zach Kidd: can a believing Latter day Saint accept both evolution and the story of Adam and Eve?
Zach Lundberg: And some really quick background is I have a super close friend who came to me recently and he said, I'm not sure I believe in the story of Adam and Eve. I'm like, I'm not sure about it. I for sure don't believe in Exodus. I don't believe Moses is a real person, but I can't reconcile what we know through science with the theory of evolution and the story of Adam and Eve. So, I actually believe in evolution as well, for the record. I won't go to the point of like arguing against creationism necessarily, but I think the science lines up with our faith and what we believe. And when I learned about the theory of evolution and started believing in the theory of evolution during my college days, I reconciled it by just saying, of evolution must have been how God created, you know, everything. And he guided evolution. And that's how we have Adam and Eve. But I left it there. And I never really thought deeper about it until now. And so now with this opportunity to learn a little more about both the story of Adam and Eve and kind of early church doctrine about Adam and Eve, This has been a fun thing to research a little bit and dive into. But yeah, initial answer. Yes. I think you absolutely can. Both, but you know, wholeheartedly believe in evolutionary biology and the theory of evolution, as well as the story of Adam and Eve and,
Zach Kidd: Mm.
Zach Lundberg: you know, what we know about them from the scriptures.
Zach Kidd: Yeah, I I feel the same way. That's you know, I'm I'm a big big science person and enjoy science and I only believe in science. but
Zach Lundberg: I only believe in science.
Zach Kidd: yeah, and that that's one that kinda same boat is you know, talking about evolution, high school, college, like it it was just one that it was like, Okay, like yeah, makes sense that things evolve like we have evolved as a human race since Christ time, you know, even you know, we've evolved since the eighteen hundreds, right? Like even just height and all those things, right? Like we've we've evolved and so it's always made
Zach Lundberg: Mm-hmm.
Zach Kidd: sense. it's kind of fun diving into this specifically around now going all the way back, like at what point. like did it all start with Adam and Eve where you know in the scriptures story in Genesis or Pearl of Great Price, Moses, right? It same story, Adam and Eve, the story of the creation, Adam and Eve and everything that way. And so A few different thoughts, like just trying to reconcile it in my head And you know, w I don't necessarily know if I need to have like a straight answer on on how it is, right? Like there's one way to look at it as literal, right? Adam and Eve were the only humans on Earth. That's how it started. And there we go. There's also the theory of there were other humans outside the garden, right? In in the in Genesis and in Moses, so Genesis one and in Moses two it it does say let me pull up the Exact one here. It says Right, in one it says so God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them. And then it just goes on, right? And it's not until Genesis two that it really dives into that same Moses two and and then it it just talks about made them plural. And it could be just speaking about just Adam and Eve, or it could be speaking of them as an a broader broader set of people. and it's not
Zachariah Lundberg: that's how I think about it with the theory of evolution,
Zach Kidd: huh.
Zachariah Lundberg: right? Like like in my own head, I I think about it as like and it mentions it mentions in there that we're they're made we're made from the dust of the earth. And
Zach Kidd: Uh-huh.
Zachariah Lundberg: it also mentions that the the the creatures, you know the living things of the earth are made of the dust of the earth.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: And I think like one of the parts of the theory of evolution is that our our species wasn't always humans that there's
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: something that came before humans that was is more b based based on the the the data that we do have.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: more animalistic, if you will. Wha wha w I'm there's a there's a word I'm looking for. I'm not sure why it's c why it's not coming to me, but the essentially cavemen, if you will. Like the skull shape was different even, but
Zach Kidd: Yeah. Primitive? I don't know. Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: yeah, well well, it'll it'll come to me. But but ultimately there was a point where we started to become human. And the the the
Zach Kidd: Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: the the history, the carbon dating, everything, says like okay, at this point this is when you know, we started to have some level of civilization that builds versus
Zach Kidd: Mm.
Zachariah Lundberg: just being, you know, cave dwellers. And I I could I could see that being the way that, you know, God develops the human race and then introduces Adam and Eve to the world. and there's obviously more that we can talk about with like was the Garden of Eden a real place? Or like
Zach Kidd: Mm.
Zachariah Lundberg: was it was it removed? Was it on a separate plane of his existence? Like why why did we need cherubim and a flaming sword? You know,
Zach Kidd: Uh-huh.
Zachariah Lundberg: you i i it goes on. But I I d sor sorry, I you you can you can keep going, but I feel like I'm connecting my thoughts on evolution as we walk through it.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm. Yep. No, and I I think that's where, you know, I I've kind of thought of that as well of hey, yep, like they've evolved and then there's that in Genesis two it says, and the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, like you said, and breathed into his nostril the breath of life. And it's like, is that breath of life like the spirit, right? Or like
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah, said our soul.
Zach Kidd: is that our soul? Yeah, like who that it it's more of that conscience, right? that that intelligence, I guess you could say, right? It's the start of intelligence there. Then there's kind of another another take that I guess another step. So even if we were to say, no, like in Adam and Eve's time the the people were smart, had consciences and things like that. Are Adam and Eve the first covenant people? Not necessarily the first biological humans. that option, right? It's it's nothing nothing set in stone. I'm just I'm just trying to work through all of like the different options that there could be, you know?
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: again if we we can also i if it is just a story, right, like Adam Abne represent every human being, right? It's it's kind of father mother, but it's just it's a again more of just a theological story, which
Zachariah Lundberg: Mm.
Zach Kidd: could be. They could be, yeah, just the first ones. Or it could just be a a a story or somewhere in the middle, right?
Zachariah Lundberg: Ya.
Zach Kidd: i that's kind of the kind of the fun part with all this.
Zachariah Lundberg: Well and and some part of this is it comes from w when we talk about different groups of people outside of just the direct descendants of Adam and Eve that are mentioned in the book of Genesis, where
Zach Kidd: Mm.
Zachariah Lundberg: Ham, Shem, and Japheth Japheth, Japheth, Japheth.
Zach Kidd: huh.
Zachariah Lundberg: like it i it's it's talked about that they they they married you know spouses.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: And There are some Christians I just learned that believe and maybe this is a lot of Christians, but but I don't know. There's some Christians believe that Adam and Eve had children in a perfect state in the Garden of Eden, and that they were acting on God's first commandment up until they broke his second commandment, not partake of the tree of good and evil, and that it wasn't just them. which is an interesting take and
Zach Kidd: Uh-huh.
Zachariah Lundberg: we don't believe that because of what we learn from is it Second Nephi?
Zach Kidd: Mm. Yeah. Second Nephi two, twenty two and twenty three. Exactly.
Zachariah Lundberg: where where we we're told in Book of Mormon that Adam and Eve couldn't have kids until they left the Garden of Eden. so I I don't know why. But that's another interesting take is like were were people brought to earth in a perfect state? Like was Were Adam and Eve living in a celestial state where they did have perfect bodies before the fall? and if so, how long were they there? And if so, why couldn't they have kids? or or why why didn't they have kids if that's God's first commandment that was given to them? and it says they're innocent. So we take that to mean they don't understand sex? Which is an interesting take.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm. It is.
Zachariah Lundberg: I don't know. Right? well I just don't understand how to procreate. But the more I think about that one, I feel like the the more questions I have about the story. And it's like
Zach Kidd: Mm.
Zachariah Lundberg: there's so much that we don't know that could be the case.
Zach Kidd: Yeah. Right.
Zachariah Lundberg: And so I I I there there's kind of two parts in my mind. There's the theory of evolution could absolutely be true, but then if the Garden of Eden hear me out here, none of this doctrinal, this is just the the musings of of of Zach Lonberg. if the Garden of Eden is on a different plane of existence and it is a celestial world that they're living in, you know, a perfect state where where they have perfect bodies and everything else around them is perfect, you know, they they eat the fruit of the garden, etc. The fall introducing death not for the world, but for Adam and Eve and the inhabitants of the Garden of Eden could make sense. Like if God
Zach Kidd: Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: takes the body of a an inhabitant of earth as a at the point where evolution fits with what he needs for you know male and female to be. and he takes them in, puts them in the garden of Ema of Eden. Perfects him as part of his work and then places into him the soul of Michael or Adam's soul. that makes sense to me. Especially if with the context of the fall, that moving forward, maybe maybe we are all, you know, human descendants of Adam and Eve. and the the prior humanoid or human beings on the earth before them as part of evolution you know didn't have intelligences or didn't have souls.
Zach Kidd: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: We we might as well be put be talking about colob right now. This is so like far out of our depth. Like this is so far from doctrine or
Zach Kidd: Uh-huh.
Zachariah Lundberg: like scripture. It's like I like
Zach Kidd: It yeah. There's a lot of hypothetical for sure. Well and and I guess that
Zachariah Lundberg: Sorry, I said that
Zach Kidd: What I I guess why why is it so important then? for us that I I guess one that that they would be real.
Zachariah Lundberg: I I think for a lot of people, especially as you progress with your faith and you go to the temple more, like the the temple experience we we I don't it it's not uncommon knowledge or sacred knowledge that we learn about Adam and Eve and the covenants that they made or or we're educated and told that they made.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: with with God and Like through through his descend or disciples, I guess, that come down to the earth.
Zach Kidd: Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: And I think for a lot of people, if they were to contemplate and think, well, did Adam and Eve actually exist? That could rock their whole foundation. You know, it's like if their whole foundation is that Adam and Eve story leading up to okay, like Christ was a descendant of Adam and Eve. through through that line in the Bible and there's the record of God's people and ultimately everything builds up to Jesus Christ coming to save us as as was God's plan. I think for some people, maybe maybe for a lot of people, they think about how could everything else be true or what else isn't true. if the story of Adam and Eve is just a story. And
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: I think that's it's a valid concern if you're worried about the story of Adam and Eve being legitimate.
Zach Kidd: Right. Well and I think that to your point is that especially the whole part of the fall itself, if there's no fall there's no need for Christ. Right. And so those two really are hand in hand. And I think that's what can make the temple so awesome w as we do learn like with creation and and things like that is that it's it's so intertwined. Right, like the whole story, the whole context of of eternity is a lot more beautiful. It makes Christ's story a lot more redemptive and cool. and powerful.
Zachariah Lundberg: And it makes Eve look like she's not just some dumb wench.
Zach Kidd: Exactly. And I think that that's I I think that's
Zachariah Lundberg: She gets a bad rap from most Christians. My goodness.
Zach Kidd: She does. That's what I was gonna say is I I think that this is where we kind of differ in theology with most all Christian faiths.
Zachariah Lundberg: Everyone.
Zach Kidd: Yeah, I was gonna say with everyone. I was gonna say most, some, all yep, e every single one of is Adam and Eve's fall was actually a good thing. 'cause to your point is there is that theory from other other Christians that yeah, Adam Eve had kids like in the garden. And that make sense somehow. Right. Like I like I can I can see like God can do anything. right. And so like I I I do I I can see where that's coming from, but at the same time there's still the need for the fall being necessary so that they can experience that sadness. and joy, right? Like you can't experience one without the other. And I think
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: that's a that's an important part of the human condition. And that's almost where I wonder if you know where where kind of this evolution point comes in is is there kind of a difference you know in in our mental capacity or or that light and knowledge. I was actually listening to I listened to a talk in kind of studying on this and one of the important things that Let pull the exact quote on here. It was the glory of God is intelligence, light, and truth. So
Zachariah Lundberg: Mm.
Zach Kidd: be like being godly or becoming more godlike is that intelligence. It is finding light, truth. And if we're if we've kind of hit that state in our evolutionary standpoint, or like in our evolutionary progression. then that's when we have those souls where we're be we're becoming like God or how God created man in his image. also think about this like with everything else, not just humans, but like everything else, right? Is there there was a long period of time, dinosaurs and all that stuff. Like our our days aren't the same as God's days on how everything was created, right? Like
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah. That's a whole other fun
Zach Kidd: all
Zachariah Lundberg: conversation.
Zach Kidd: yep. And this this is where I am a f am a big believer in I I think that God still works within laws and parameters. Like come at me with that. But like even like with law of gravity progression, like even even those kind of things.
Zachariah Lundberg: Hey, with quantum physics, pff a anything's possible.
Zach Kidd: Anything's exactly. And so but that that's where I think that he still works within laws. And so if the world need to be created a certain way Over a certain amount of time. Any humans need to needed to be evolved, right, for us to to be to the point that we are. Like then that was the method that it needed to happen.
Zachariah Lundberg: You're saying he didn't just say Bing here's here's Adam Bing here's Eve.
Zach Kidd: You know that's the hard part though, is cause he kinda he that's the hard part is 'cause the scriptures kinda make it sound like that, right? Like he
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: made from the dust, right?
Zachariah Lundberg: He took something. He didn't make them out
Zach Kidd: something.
Zachariah Lundberg: of nothing.
Zach Kidd: Yeah. But I I I just wonder also could Yeah, could there have been humans, humanoids going on at the same time as? That too? I don't know.
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah. Yeah, there's there's so much we we don't really know. But what we have a record of in in the fossils and the carbon dating and you know, the the geology is that there were humans for much longer than the time period of the Bible Right? And I I d I don't know about others. That's okay. That's okay with me. I w one thing that that my wife and I talked about earlier as as I was talking to her about about some of this is she said, Isn't it awesome that we live in a time when the restoration of the gospel is still ongoing?
Zach Kidd: Mm.
Zachariah Lundberg: And I was like, well, like we we we we know we we do know most things though. She's like and she corrected me and it was it was actually really really cool. She's like, Well we know we we know the ordinances of salvation, but there's still so much going on with the restoration. Like the church Christ's church is still being restored on the earth today. And we're still continuing to receive revelation and get, you know, further light and knowledge. about what what the truth is.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: And the things that we know a hundred percent are a very small small fraction of what we talk about and what we know
Zach Kidd: Okay.
Zachariah Lundberg: and and church policy. So
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: th that gives me hope that it's all going to make sense from both a scientific point and like a religious perspective. And I feel confident that they are one and the same that God works through like like you said, I think there are eternal laws of the universe that are scientific that make up our laws of you know, you you mentioned gravity, but like ph physics and biology and you know, you name it, the the the the things that govern the universe. I don't think God is working outside those bounds. I'm I'm with you on the same page. But
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: as an all knowing being, like there's still so much that we don't know about science. And
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: there's still so much that we go back and forth on, where science said one thing and then it says another thing and then it says, well actually the first thing was right.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: So who's to say we don't have an evolutionary biologist at some point that says, Hey, I think I found the existence of where the Garden of Eden might be Or Or I I don't know. Like what w what do you think about that?
Zach Kidd: Could be. Could be. Again though, but
Zachariah Lundberg: Strange tick.
Zach Kidd: I I know there's like the years and things like that in the Bible. I I am always curious though on really how long are those years and are they the same, you know? Like what's what's defined as the years? was time different back then on how they measured it? We're very, very fast.
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: I don't know. Like again I I'm I'm sure that how the earth spun and rotated might have been impacted by a flood. I don't know. Like how how things work in shape.
Zachariah Lundberg: I mean I mean could the flood have just been like a very isolated like the world as Noah knew it?
Zach Kidd: I don't know. It Bible does say everything is destroyed, so everything's kind of a big broad everything. But I get your I get your point. And that's where again kinda going to this as well as the origins of the Bible and and like the Genesis story is a lot of times it's there there's kind of a couple thoughts is it was written by Moses, right? or there's also the the thought that oral traditions passed down through time. Yeah, could have been written by Moses, but also written later in I I think as I was studying knows somewhere in the late BCs isn't late as in like a hundred or two hundred BC. there. So a couple different thoughts to that. But I I th I think that it's also good to note that that playing the game of telephone through generations Right, of how many years and trying to make things make sense for people as you're telling those orally, might expand or or change change some things.
Zachariah Lundberg: i if there are different dispensations of God's God's church and his people re rejecting him and embracing him and rejecting him and embracing him and we believe we're in the last dispensation, how much more important then does it become that we have modern day revelation? You know? Like if some of these things in the Bible or or even like is it is it blasphemous to say the Book of Mormon? Some people are not gonna like that. If some
Zach Kidd: Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: of these old stories happen to truly be like stories or legends, right, and the one thing that we know is Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation and that You know, everyone will have a chance to accept Christ. it makes me grateful that we really do believe in modern day revelation and that we are always learning more.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and and to that that that's always as I'm reading through the scriptures, everything stands out, like the parts that stand out the most are the gospels in the New Testament and then Third Nephi eleven through twenty ish, right? Like when when Christ is in the Americas. And for whatever reason, like those just shine brighter for me. Probably probably 'cause I've just studied more. than than others, but I think just something about that's really what matters is hey like focusing on Christ, right? And and coming back to him and how we necessarily got there and things like that. We'll we'll understand more down the road. And but I I I can also empathize with those that, you know, are are feeling like they need the answer now and that's okay if you feel that way. and
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah. Yeah.
Zach Kidd: and sometimes it it sucks that there's not the clarity. It sucks that there are two chapters of scripture to talk about it. Right? And
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: that's it. Right? And and you'd like to know more.
Zachariah Lundberg: We've technically got Moses, right? Book Book of Moses. Not none. But yes, it's essentially two chapters.
Zach Kidd: Yeah. Right. But still it two two chapters in Genesis two two and Moses. Yeah. like it there's there's just so much so much that we know again from a science standpoint, so much writings and and all that stuff to compare to again things that could have been been passed down oral traditions, different things, not the full context, right? We we also believe that, you know, some of those things could have been lost, you know, with just more truth, in the Bible is Again, just
Zachariah Lundberg: Mm-hmm.
Zach Kidd: not by anyone's intent. Maybe it was intent. Like there there could be intent, with some, but also just things get lost and what's important for one person
Zachariah Lundberg: I mean
Zach Kidd: in their time might not be most important for someone else.
Zachariah Lundberg: Well and and honest honest people as well make make mistakes sometimes big mistakes like we're we're imperfect as a result of the fall. We're we're mortal.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: So knowing that God is working with mortal people and that He doesn't just go in and fix everything for us
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: there's there are necessarily going to be things that make it hard to have the complete story just
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: as a result of time and human inadequacy and our desire to serve not lining up with being able to be the vessel that God needs and yet He trusts us anyway and gives us the opportunity to to be part of his work which is awesome.
Zach Kidd: Yeah. It makes you grateful, right? Like gives so much
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: purpose, right? It's it's that whole why are we here now? You know,
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: and yeah, that's pretty. Speaking of imperfections, can I take a little side tangent?
Zachariah Lundberg: Ooh, that's what I'm here for.
Zach Kidd: Okay. as I was looking into these things second prophet Brigham Young came up in in one of his discourses at a at a general conference. He said, Can I sh I'll just read it.
Zachariah Lundberg: Doctrine has left the building.
Zach Kidd: Yeah. Where we are it this is something that the church does not proclaim right now, but it's kind of fun to talk about, on here.
Zachariah Lundberg: And it sure did up until Kimball.
Zach Kidd: Yep. Exactly. There there are a lot of people again, technology, we're still trying to get to everyone. The this story's kinda cool. It's kinda fun as you're reasoning through things. but he says on here When our father Adam came into the Garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael the Archangel, the ancient of days, about whom holy men have written and spoken. He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth professing Christians or non professing must hear it and will know it sooner or later.
Zachariah Lundberg: Man.
Zach Kidd: This is this is at at the Adam God theory. that you know, Adam Adam is God. And with that partial truth that we still do believe is Adam is Michael. Right? Like that's that's
Zachariah Lundberg: Michael. Yeah.
Zach Kidd: still still very very much a a belief but yeah, being again though for and and this is kind of where we have to take a step back and and kinda give some grace to some of these leaders, right? Like the this was given in eighteen fifty. and if you think about it, like Brigham Young had less time in the church than than you and I.
Zachariah Lundberg: Cool. Yeah. That's an interesting
Zach Kidd: Right. Right. Like he
Zachariah Lundberg: thought.
Zach Kidd: He was a member of the church for a shorter amount of time. That's just how it is.
Zachariah Lundberg: for becoming the prophet of the church.
Zach Kidd: Yeah, before becoming the prophet and and still figuring things out, right? Not all things have been revealed and
Zachariah Lundberg: Not to say he wasn't a learned man. I mean
Zach Kidd: huh. Yeah. And he studied again the Bible and all that stuff and but also he he came from a background of he he liked to Like to make some noise and like like to stir the pot a bit. And you like to say some some proud things. Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: A lot of people have left the church because of Brigham Young stuff. And that's that's okay.
Zach Kidd: That's we we can understand. But again, like sometimes people will say like yeah, you he was he was crazy and it's like yeah, you kinda have to be crazy to lead a whole group of pioneers out to Utah. there there's little there's something. now having said that, I believe that there's still the priesthood authority and all that that's been passed down. And we have the right to or those priesthood holders and those with keys have the authority to receive revelation for the church and then for whatever keys they have. right, like state presidents for their stake, bishops for their wards and and all those. Like I I still believe that. but then also do you believe in individual revelation, that we we do get to come to know these things for ourselves, which is cool.
Zachariah Lundberg: the Adam God theory. Yeah, I'm glad that's not part of our church doctrine anymore. I mean it's been
Zach Kidd: Yeah, 'cause I kinda get squashed.
Zachariah Lundberg: yeah. I mean it's been fifty years or so since that changed with President Kimball.
Zach Kidd: Yeah, I mean it it says Kimball, he was very open about it. It says early nineteen hundreds, like nineteen nine, the first presidency taught that God the Father is a separate being, so but you know, what so
Zachariah Lundberg: yeah. okay.
Zach Kidd: so there's only, you know, fifty years of that probably spread. A good amount, but that is kind of a a fun hot topic to to get to win some people over. Like it's kind of fun news,
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: If you're doing missionary work. It's like hey, listen.
Zachariah Lundberg: So if you've never heard of the Adam God theory, now you know. Look you can look
Zach Kidd: There you go.
Zachariah Lundberg: up Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses. Man, that Eve was one of Adam's wives. Give me a break. Don't get me started on polygamy. We're we're gonna have to talk
Zach Kidd: Crazy stuff. I know.
Zachariah Lundberg: about that again.
Zach Kidd: We'll ha we'll have to yeah, we'll do a separate episode on that. But again, that's that's the cool part with all this is again, I I think that's where we can give him grace is as far as hey, he was still learning stuff. to your point what you made what you said, Zach, is we're still in an ongoing revelation, right? It's an ongoing restoration of of Christ's church. And And to be honest too, that that's one of those like Christ did his ministry for three years and He put a lot in place. But I also think that there's a reason why there's so many different Christian denominations because there was still some ambiguity. Right? Like none of it's totally a hundred percent clear.
Zachariah Lundberg: didn't instruct us in every single thing. Right?
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Zachariah Lundberg: He taught us the principles, but I mean he he was there to abolish the law and he established
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: the principles. I I think it's I think it's helpful and important as well to to pull up the talk from Elder D. Todd Christofferson if if you haven't read it, for anybody listening that's just like, Man, how could we have had early prophets teaching that Adam was God? or things like that, or or you hear you know, a general conference talk from the seventies, one of many that was like a a racist talk or sexist talk or you name it, if you if you look for it you can find it. There's a great line from this talk in twenty twenty in twenty twelve that isn't referenced enough that I think should be talked about more. And he he says it should be remembered that not every statement made by a church leader, pastor present necessarily constitutes doctrine. It's commonly understood in the church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often resents represents a personal, though well considered opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole church. So here's what that means for you and me. and this is now that now this is the the doctrine of Zach here. Here's what that means for you and me. The gospel to some extent is is, you know, that smorgasbord where everybody is going to have some of the little things that maybe they believe about God that are specific to them, their experience and their faith. And we'll see different church leaders that believe different things and different nuances. And even some church leaders that will probably still in future general conferences say something that we look back on either immediately or in the near future and go that's whack. So if you've ever had that thought or you have a specific church leader that you're like man what he said was not right if it's something that not every apostle or not every prophet has testified of in a public forum and in you know in in the doctrine that's listed in the church. Don't worry about it too much. If there's anything I believe really deeply, it's it's that, you know, Jesus Christ is fair and that ultimately it's all going to work out for those that that love the Lord and strive to follow him. And there's a lot of imperfections in the leaders of the church, past and present, and in the members, and he absolutely will make all of that right.
Zach Kidd: I agree. And what comes to mind with any of those things, if there ever is something like that, always make sure to take it up, right? Like and I and I say that by asking God. But also like take it up with your bishop, your state president. Don't take it out to everyone. Like that's I I
Zachariah Lundberg: Mm.
Zach Kidd: I I think you can't like obviously it's healthy to talk and and things, you know, but with with gripes and grievances I think that it's important to to pass information up through leadership. Right? And and I I've just seen in wards that, you know, maybe maybe it's something a state president or bishop said or did or something and then all the gossip just spreads throughout the ward and then people start getting opinions about leaders and and people and things like that that
Zachariah Lundberg: And if there's gonna be a ward split or not.
Zach Kidd: Yeah, I know exactly. And thing things just things just spread around. So always go up with it. Like and because with going up, that feedback also can go up the chain. Right? as as our state presidents go into trainings with seventies and with apostles and prophets, that feedback can can be taken up. And those questions can be brought up, right? For if we're we as a body are just sitting gossiping around right with
Zachariah Lundberg: Mm.
Zach Kidd: with us. Again, feel free. I I I think that's why we have ministrying brothers and sisters and that's why we have friends and you know, platforms like this where we can talk about things. but I I do think that it's important to to make sure we're getting getting the appropriate things up the chain as well.
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah. And and at the same time it's like th that's that's with the assumption that you you trust your bishop or you have
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: a good relationship with them, right? Like if you don't feel like you can talk with your bishop about something, of course that's up to you. Like go I'm always gonna be an advocate of don't go against your instincts. And I think there's gonna be a lot of things that each of us personally takes to God and we get our own answers, just like this you know, taught in James and led
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: to Joseph Smith ultimately h in his his vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ. But I love that we can go get our own answers, but It also comes back to like if you're going to do if you're going to search out a response to something or you're worried about something, like do it with God. Because you'll you'll you'll get whatever answer you're looking for if you aren't looking for a specific answer. if you're looking for evidence that the church isn't true or that the prophets aren't aren't men of God or that you know s something that you're already thinking about and you've con you've convinced yourself right there's there's a big difference between an honest search for answers and like finding evidence to back up what you already believe. Man, that's maybe that's unnecessary that I say that. Is that harsh?
Zach Kidd: No. I think that's fine. Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: I think for each of us, like in our hearts, we we know to some extent. And if there's something you feel like you don't know, I think it's worth jumping into the science. It's worth studying out and learning all that you can and then taking it to God for an answer. And depending on the answer you get, like okay. Move forward from there and wait for greater light and understanding.
Zach Kidd: Yeah, as as it's said, at the second best university in the valley of of Utah Valley. BY BYU right is learning by what is it by by knowledge and by faith? Right?
Zachariah Lundberg: Mm.
Zach Kidd: Or you you gotta gotta do it do
Zachariah Lundberg: Never went there, wouldn't know.
Zach Kidd: it with both I I didn't either, but it it was something to that effect of know, learn learn the things of the world but also with faith and and do it with God. and that's why, you know, say second best university in the valley. Probably third, fourth best university in the state. 'cause we've
Zachariah Lundberg: Great.
Zach Kidd: got got UVU's top for sure. Dixie and then the UN BYU can can duke it out. I guess it's Utah tech now, but
Zachariah Lundberg: Maybe your hottest take for for any audience that we have.
Zach Kidd: Yeah. yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: I'm all for it, but you know,
Zach Kidd: Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: as another UVU alum.
Zach Kidd: Yep. It's important that that people recognize the greatness that we will make the N C double A Met basketball tournament one of these years.
Zachariah Lundberg: Ha ha.
Zach Kidd: And it'll be it will be awesome. But but yeah, with with all that, like again I kind of getting back to the Adam Adam and Eve thing is I I do think that it's very important. I I think I I guess really the biggest takeaway for me has been the just the whole theology around it and and the story that comes with it. I do think that it's really, really important. Because again that's they represent us, right? Adam and Eve. I I think, you know, being those two people are a representative of of us as humans and First first children, right? And and being direct children of God. Like that's that's cool. And I think that we can draw a lot of strength from that story. Whatever, you know, we come to know in the future as far as how real, how it all played in with evolution, whatever it might be. I I think principally though, it's it's good to know that we're sons and daughters of God. That We were created in God's image. And one thing just to note in that it says in Moses that's a little bit different than in Genesis that I really like is
Zachariah Lundberg: Mm.
Zach Kidd: for I the Lord God created all things of which I have spoken spiritually before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. And I I think that's important to know is yeah, you were You're created spiritually and you have a purpose and I think again the story of Adam and Eve helps us know that that when we're walking with God, there's no need for shame either. That's what I love about about the story, right? Like no shame when we're walking with God, when we're when we're listening and following him like a child, right? And letting him be a father and teach us, then Then these are good, yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: Well and th there there's no there's no perfect child. Like
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: the perfect child is the one that tests boundaries and uses their agency to to do the dumb things. And
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: anybody with kids knows like kids have to learn by just doing it wrong sometimes. And that doesn't
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: change as we continue to grow older and And get better at different things and increase in our knowledge. And I love that the story of Adam and Eve, especially with how we believe that it highlights the actions of Eve as actually the enabling factor. That the fall was was was meant to be, that we we need to have those mistakes so that we can learn and progress and grow. Yes, that means that you know we have death and we have suffering and we have a savior for it. Jesus Christ was set forth from before earth, before Adam and Eve as the Savior. And we we always have have him and he's the reason why it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay that we make mistakes, even even the mistakes that fly in the face of reason and logic and the best thing we can do is exercise our agency and do it with God and know that there is a path back and it's gonna be okay.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm. I agree.
Zachariah Lundberg: Are you ready for me to get off my Rameumptum yet? Am I am I am I preaching too too hard?
Zach Kidd: No, I love it. I love it. You you keep doing your thing. Yeah, I just think it's it's a great origin story.
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: and I don't know, I I said okay with that. Yeah. That that's that's kinda where I sit with it now. You know, who knows? That could change down the road. And that's the great part is I feel like I I have strong opinions loosely held. Right. Like I I feel strongly about but I'm always open for conversation and always open to be told different and and open
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: to new opinions. 'cause that's the fun of life, right? And and again that's what that's what we learn from from the story of Adam and Eve is is that Eve partook of the fruit and and
Zachariah Lundberg: Thank goodness she did.
Zach Kidd: yep. And then yeah, Adam was like, Well she did it. Puts puts blame on her, that's my favorite.
Zachariah Lundberg: Well she's gonna well she's gonna get kicked out. I'd I'd better go with her. Yeah.
Zach Kidd: Uhhuh. Yep. Exactly. So. But
Zachariah Lundberg: Well
Zach Kidd: Any other last thoughts with it?
Zachariah Lundberg: I think I'm good. I think I I I do believe the story of Adam Eve was literal. but I'm also at a point where if it's a just an important theological story that that's used, I think I'll I I'd be okay if I found out that was the case. But I'm I'm happy to believe for now that Adam and Eve were were real people. And like I feel like it it's it's great to relate with them, you know, being being able
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: to put ourselves in their shoes and know that like we've we've made mistakes and we live in a fallen world and that Jesus Christ is here for us. Like I think that's I think that's invaluable to remember. And when we think of Christ, his importance is be because of the fall, all that tying together.
Zach Kidd: Yeah. And I think that a as you said there, something something key is belief, right? Like I I too, like I I believe that it that it's real, that they were real people, that Adam was a prophet, that he made and kept covet.
Zachariah Lundberg: First one that we know.
Zach Kidd: Yeah, I know. In a place called Eden. But but but I I do I do believe that they are and and that he made and kept covenants with God and we can learn from that. And yeah, it's again the more the more we come to understand and come to relate to that story, the more beautiful the atonement is and the more the more we can appreciate that garden, the garden of Eden. The more we can appreciate the Garden of Gethsemane.
Zachariah Lundberg: Hallelujah.
Zach Kidd: There we go.
Zachariah Lundberg: trying to ch channel my my Southern Baptist. I I didn't I d I couldn't do it confidently enough and I don't think it landed. But
Zach Kidd: That's okay. That's alright. That's alright. For those of you on the on the pod listening, you'll need to watch YouTube. See see what he did there.
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: So but yeah, so yeah again, believe. And if that's all you've got, you're you're in good company. believe, ask questions and and seek wisdom, and and ask it from above. again, if you're lacking wisdom. go up. God'll give you the answers. Might not always be in the timing that you want, but you'll get eventually. And again focus on the principles, the things that matter, and the rest will take care of itself.
Zachariah Lundberg: We'll see you next week.
Zach Kidd: See ya.
Zach Lundberg: This podcast started with a simple realization we don't have all the answers.
Zach Kidd: Not even close, but we do love the scriptures, and we believe God still speaks to people who ask him.
Zach Lundberg: The name lacking wisdom comes from a verse in James If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God. Those words led a young Joseph Smith to kneel down in prayer and ask God which church was true. That prayer helped start the restoration.
Zach Kidd: And it raises a question for the rest of us what happens when we ask God for wisdom?
Zach Lundberg: So each week we open the scriptures together, the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and other restoration scripture, and we wrestle with them. Not as scholars, not as experts, just as two disciples trying to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ a little bit better.
Zach Kidd: Sometimes we'll find answers, sometimes we'll leave with more questions. But that's part of the journey.
Zach Lundberg: If you've ever read the scriptures and thought, What does this actually mean? Or how does this apply to my life? You're not alone.
Zach Kidd: So come study with us. Come wrestle with the word. And if you happen to be lacking wisdom, let's ask God.
Zach Lundberg: Let's ask God. This is lacking wisdom.
Zach Kidd: Here we are. We've made it.
Zach Lundberg: Welcome to Lacking Wisdom.
Zach Kidd: Was Zach and Zach?
Zach Lundberg: with Zach and Zach.
Zach Kidd: Yep. We're here.
Zach Lundberg: Third time's a charm.
Zach Kidd: Yep. Third third go at it. opposition to all things, so
Zach Lundberg: If you're hearing this, ultimately it was good that we published it. We have tried to record this twice and for different reasons. Tech, technology stuff, it hasn't worked and the internet's crapped out and you name it. So if you're hearing this and we're publishing it, then the message must have gotten through and... Well, I'm honestly giving up on it if our technology craps on us again this third time. So we better get the message across quickly.
Zach Kidd: L let's get to it. should be should be really fun conversation today. which is probably why there's the opposition. so the question of the d of the day where we're lacking wisdom.
Zach Lundberg: Hmm.
Zach Kidd: can a believing Latter day Saint accept both evolution and the story of Adam and Eve?
Zach Lundberg: And some really quick background is I have a super close friend who came to me recently and he said, I'm not sure I believe in the story of Adam and Eve. I'm like, I'm not sure about it. I for sure don't believe in Exodus. I don't believe Moses is a real person, but I can't reconcile what we know through science with the theory of evolution and the story of Adam and Eve. So, I actually believe in evolution as well, for the record. I won't go to the point of like arguing against creationism necessarily, but I think the science lines up with our faith and what we believe. And when I learned about the theory of evolution and started believing in the theory of evolution during my college days, I reconciled it by just saying, of evolution must have been how God created, you know, everything. And he guided evolution. And that's how we have Adam and Eve. But I left it there. And I never really thought deeper about it until now. And so now with this opportunity to learn a little more about both the story of Adam and Eve and kind of early church doctrine about Adam and Eve, This has been a fun thing to research a little bit and dive into. But yeah, initial answer. Yes. I think you absolutely can. Both, but you know, wholeheartedly believe in evolutionary biology and the theory of evolution, as well as the story of Adam and Eve and,
Zach Kidd: Mm.
Zach Lundberg: you know, what we know about them from the scriptures.
Zach Kidd: Yeah, I I feel the same way. That's you know, I'm I'm a big big science person and enjoy science and I only believe in science. but
Zach Lundberg: I only believe in science.
Zach Kidd: yeah, and that that's one that kinda same boat is you know, talking about evolution, high school, college, like it it was just one that it was like, Okay, like yeah, makes sense that things evolve like we have evolved as a human race since Christ time, you know, even you know, we've evolved since the eighteen hundreds, right? Like even just height and all those things, right? Like we've we've evolved and so it's always made
Zach Lundberg: Mm-hmm.
Zach Kidd: sense. it's kind of fun diving into this specifically around now going all the way back, like at what point. like did it all start with Adam and Eve where you know in the scriptures story in Genesis or Pearl of Great Price, Moses, right? It same story, Adam and Eve, the story of the creation, Adam and Eve and everything that way. And so A few different thoughts, like just trying to reconcile it in my head And you know, w I don't necessarily know if I need to have like a straight answer on on how it is, right? Like there's one way to look at it as literal, right? Adam and Eve were the only humans on Earth. That's how it started. And there we go. There's also the theory of there were other humans outside the garden, right? In in the in Genesis and in Moses, so Genesis one and in Moses two it it does say let me pull up the Exact one here. It says Right, in one it says so God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them. And then it just goes on, right? And it's not until Genesis two that it really dives into that same Moses two and and then it it just talks about made them plural. And it could be just speaking about just Adam and Eve, or it could be speaking of them as an a broader broader set of people. and it's not
Zachariah Lundberg: that's how I think about it with the theory of evolution,
Zach Kidd: huh.
Zachariah Lundberg: right? Like like in my own head, I I think about it as like and it mentions it mentions in there that we're they're made we're made from the dust of the earth. And
Zach Kidd: Uh-huh.
Zachariah Lundberg: it also mentions that the the the creatures, you know the living things of the earth are made of the dust of the earth.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: And I think like one of the parts of the theory of evolution is that our our species wasn't always humans that there's
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: something that came before humans that was is more b based based on the the the data that we do have.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: more animalistic, if you will. Wha wha w I'm there's a there's a word I'm looking for. I'm not sure why it's c why it's not coming to me, but the essentially cavemen, if you will. Like the skull shape was different even, but
Zach Kidd: Yeah. Primitive? I don't know. Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: yeah, well well, it'll it'll come to me. But but ultimately there was a point where we started to become human. And the the the
Zach Kidd: Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: the the history, the carbon dating, everything, says like okay, at this point this is when you know, we started to have some level of civilization that builds versus
Zach Kidd: Mm.
Zachariah Lundberg: just being, you know, cave dwellers. And I I could I could see that being the way that, you know, God develops the human race and then introduces Adam and Eve to the world. and there's obviously more that we can talk about with like was the Garden of Eden a real place? Or like
Zach Kidd: Mm.
Zachariah Lundberg: was it was it removed? Was it on a separate plane of his existence? Like why why did we need cherubim and a flaming sword? You know,
Zach Kidd: Uh-huh.
Zachariah Lundberg: you i i it goes on. But I I d sor sorry, I you you can you can keep going, but I feel like I'm connecting my thoughts on evolution as we walk through it.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm. Yep. No, and I I think that's where, you know, I I've kind of thought of that as well of hey, yep, like they've evolved and then there's that in Genesis two it says, and the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, like you said, and breathed into his nostril the breath of life. And it's like, is that breath of life like the spirit, right? Or like
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah, said our soul.
Zach Kidd: is that our soul? Yeah, like who that it it's more of that conscience, right? that that intelligence, I guess you could say, right? It's the start of intelligence there. Then there's kind of another another take that I guess another step. So even if we were to say, no, like in Adam and Eve's time the the people were smart, had consciences and things like that. Are Adam and Eve the first covenant people? Not necessarily the first biological humans. that option, right? It's it's nothing nothing set in stone. I'm just I'm just trying to work through all of like the different options that there could be, you know?
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: again if we we can also i if it is just a story, right, like Adam Abne represent every human being, right? It's it's kind of father mother, but it's just it's a again more of just a theological story, which
Zachariah Lundberg: Mm.
Zach Kidd: could be. They could be, yeah, just the first ones. Or it could just be a a a story or somewhere in the middle, right?
Zachariah Lundberg: Ya.
Zach Kidd: i that's kind of the kind of the fun part with all this.
Zachariah Lundberg: Well and and some part of this is it comes from w when we talk about different groups of people outside of just the direct descendants of Adam and Eve that are mentioned in the book of Genesis, where
Zach Kidd: Mm.
Zachariah Lundberg: Ham, Shem, and Japheth Japheth, Japheth, Japheth.
Zach Kidd: huh.
Zachariah Lundberg: like it i it's it's talked about that they they they married you know spouses.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: And There are some Christians I just learned that believe and maybe this is a lot of Christians, but but I don't know. There's some Christians believe that Adam and Eve had children in a perfect state in the Garden of Eden, and that they were acting on God's first commandment up until they broke his second commandment, not partake of the tree of good and evil, and that it wasn't just them. which is an interesting take and
Zach Kidd: Uh-huh.
Zachariah Lundberg: we don't believe that because of what we learn from is it Second Nephi?
Zach Kidd: Mm. Yeah. Second Nephi two, twenty two and twenty three. Exactly.
Zachariah Lundberg: where where we we're told in Book of Mormon that Adam and Eve couldn't have kids until they left the Garden of Eden. so I I don't know why. But that's another interesting take is like were were people brought to earth in a perfect state? Like was Were Adam and Eve living in a celestial state where they did have perfect bodies before the fall? and if so, how long were they there? And if so, why couldn't they have kids? or or why why didn't they have kids if that's God's first commandment that was given to them? and it says they're innocent. So we take that to mean they don't understand sex? Which is an interesting take.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm. It is.
Zachariah Lundberg: I don't know. Right? well I just don't understand how to procreate. But the more I think about that one, I feel like the the more questions I have about the story. And it's like
Zach Kidd: Mm.
Zachariah Lundberg: there's so much that we don't know that could be the case.
Zach Kidd: Yeah. Right.
Zachariah Lundberg: And so I I I there there's kind of two parts in my mind. There's the theory of evolution could absolutely be true, but then if the Garden of Eden hear me out here, none of this doctrinal, this is just the the musings of of of Zach Lonberg. if the Garden of Eden is on a different plane of existence and it is a celestial world that they're living in, you know, a perfect state where where they have perfect bodies and everything else around them is perfect, you know, they they eat the fruit of the garden, etc. The fall introducing death not for the world, but for Adam and Eve and the inhabitants of the Garden of Eden could make sense. Like if God
Zach Kidd: Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: takes the body of a an inhabitant of earth as a at the point where evolution fits with what he needs for you know male and female to be. and he takes them in, puts them in the garden of Ema of Eden. Perfects him as part of his work and then places into him the soul of Michael or Adam's soul. that makes sense to me. Especially if with the context of the fall, that moving forward, maybe maybe we are all, you know, human descendants of Adam and Eve. and the the prior humanoid or human beings on the earth before them as part of evolution you know didn't have intelligences or didn't have souls.
Zach Kidd: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: We we might as well be put be talking about colob right now. This is so like far out of our depth. Like this is so far from doctrine or
Zach Kidd: Uh-huh.
Zachariah Lundberg: like scripture. It's like I like
Zach Kidd: It yeah. There's a lot of hypothetical for sure. Well and and I guess that
Zachariah Lundberg: Sorry, I said that
Zach Kidd: What I I guess why why is it so important then? for us that I I guess one that that they would be real.
Zachariah Lundberg: I I think for a lot of people, especially as you progress with your faith and you go to the temple more, like the the temple experience we we I don't it it's not uncommon knowledge or sacred knowledge that we learn about Adam and Eve and the covenants that they made or or we're educated and told that they made.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: with with God and Like through through his descend or disciples, I guess, that come down to the earth.
Zach Kidd: Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: And I think for a lot of people, if they were to contemplate and think, well, did Adam and Eve actually exist? That could rock their whole foundation. You know, it's like if their whole foundation is that Adam and Eve story leading up to okay, like Christ was a descendant of Adam and Eve. through through that line in the Bible and there's the record of God's people and ultimately everything builds up to Jesus Christ coming to save us as as was God's plan. I think for some people, maybe maybe for a lot of people, they think about how could everything else be true or what else isn't true. if the story of Adam and Eve is just a story. And
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: I think that's it's a valid concern if you're worried about the story of Adam and Eve being legitimate.
Zach Kidd: Right. Well and I think that to your point is that especially the whole part of the fall itself, if there's no fall there's no need for Christ. Right. And so those two really are hand in hand. And I think that's what can make the temple so awesome w as we do learn like with creation and and things like that is that it's it's so intertwined. Right, like the whole story, the whole context of of eternity is a lot more beautiful. It makes Christ's story a lot more redemptive and cool. and powerful.
Zachariah Lundberg: And it makes Eve look like she's not just some dumb wench.
Zach Kidd: Exactly. And I think that that's I I think that's
Zachariah Lundberg: She gets a bad rap from most Christians. My goodness.
Zach Kidd: She does. That's what I was gonna say is I I think that this is where we kind of differ in theology with most all Christian faiths.
Zachariah Lundberg: Everyone.
Zach Kidd: Yeah, I was gonna say with everyone. I was gonna say most, some, all yep, e every single one of is Adam and Eve's fall was actually a good thing. 'cause to your point is there is that theory from other other Christians that yeah, Adam Eve had kids like in the garden. And that make sense somehow. Right. Like I like I can I can see like God can do anything. right. And so like I I I do I I can see where that's coming from, but at the same time there's still the need for the fall being necessary so that they can experience that sadness. and joy, right? Like you can't experience one without the other. And I think
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: that's a that's an important part of the human condition. And that's almost where I wonder if you know where where kind of this evolution point comes in is is there kind of a difference you know in in our mental capacity or or that light and knowledge. I was actually listening to I listened to a talk in kind of studying on this and one of the important things that Let pull the exact quote on here. It was the glory of God is intelligence, light, and truth. So
Zachariah Lundberg: Mm.
Zach Kidd: be like being godly or becoming more godlike is that intelligence. It is finding light, truth. And if we're if we've kind of hit that state in our evolutionary standpoint, or like in our evolutionary progression. then that's when we have those souls where we're be we're becoming like God or how God created man in his image. also think about this like with everything else, not just humans, but like everything else, right? Is there there was a long period of time, dinosaurs and all that stuff. Like our our days aren't the same as God's days on how everything was created, right? Like
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah. That's a whole other fun
Zach Kidd: all
Zachariah Lundberg: conversation.
Zach Kidd: yep. And this this is where I am a f am a big believer in I I think that God still works within laws and parameters. Like come at me with that. But like even like with law of gravity progression, like even even those kind of things.
Zachariah Lundberg: Hey, with quantum physics, pff a anything's possible.
Zach Kidd: Anything's exactly. And so but that that's where I think that he still works within laws. And so if the world need to be created a certain way Over a certain amount of time. Any humans need to needed to be evolved, right, for us to to be to the point that we are. Like then that was the method that it needed to happen.
Zachariah Lundberg: You're saying he didn't just say Bing here's here's Adam Bing here's Eve.
Zach Kidd: You know that's the hard part though, is cause he kinda he that's the hard part is 'cause the scriptures kinda make it sound like that, right? Like he
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: made from the dust, right?
Zachariah Lundberg: He took something. He didn't make them out
Zach Kidd: something.
Zachariah Lundberg: of nothing.
Zach Kidd: Yeah. But I I I just wonder also could Yeah, could there have been humans, humanoids going on at the same time as? That too? I don't know.
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah. Yeah, there's there's so much we we don't really know. But what we have a record of in in the fossils and the carbon dating and you know, the the geology is that there were humans for much longer than the time period of the Bible Right? And I I d I don't know about others. That's okay. That's okay with me. I w one thing that that my wife and I talked about earlier as as I was talking to her about about some of this is she said, Isn't it awesome that we live in a time when the restoration of the gospel is still ongoing?
Zach Kidd: Mm.
Zachariah Lundberg: And I was like, well, like we we we we know we we do know most things though. She's like and she corrected me and it was it was actually really really cool. She's like, Well we know we we know the ordinances of salvation, but there's still so much going on with the restoration. Like the church Christ's church is still being restored on the earth today. And we're still continuing to receive revelation and get, you know, further light and knowledge. about what what the truth is.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: And the things that we know a hundred percent are a very small small fraction of what we talk about and what we know
Zach Kidd: Okay.
Zachariah Lundberg: and and church policy. So
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: th that gives me hope that it's all going to make sense from both a scientific point and like a religious perspective. And I feel confident that they are one and the same that God works through like like you said, I think there are eternal laws of the universe that are scientific that make up our laws of you know, you you mentioned gravity, but like ph physics and biology and you know, you name it, the the the the things that govern the universe. I don't think God is working outside those bounds. I'm I'm with you on the same page. But
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: as an all knowing being, like there's still so much that we don't know about science. And
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: there's still so much that we go back and forth on, where science said one thing and then it says another thing and then it says, well actually the first thing was right.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: So who's to say we don't have an evolutionary biologist at some point that says, Hey, I think I found the existence of where the Garden of Eden might be Or Or I I don't know. Like what w what do you think about that?
Zach Kidd: Could be. Could be. Again though, but
Zachariah Lundberg: Strange tick.
Zach Kidd: I I know there's like the years and things like that in the Bible. I I am always curious though on really how long are those years and are they the same, you know? Like what's what's defined as the years? was time different back then on how they measured it? We're very, very fast.
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: I don't know. Like again I I'm I'm sure that how the earth spun and rotated might have been impacted by a flood. I don't know. Like how how things work in shape.
Zachariah Lundberg: I mean I mean could the flood have just been like a very isolated like the world as Noah knew it?
Zach Kidd: I don't know. It Bible does say everything is destroyed, so everything's kind of a big broad everything. But I get your I get your point. And that's where again kinda going to this as well as the origins of the Bible and and like the Genesis story is a lot of times it's there there's kind of a couple thoughts is it was written by Moses, right? or there's also the the thought that oral traditions passed down through time. Yeah, could have been written by Moses, but also written later in I I think as I was studying knows somewhere in the late BCs isn't late as in like a hundred or two hundred BC. there. So a couple different thoughts to that. But I I th I think that it's also good to note that that playing the game of telephone through generations Right, of how many years and trying to make things make sense for people as you're telling those orally, might expand or or change change some things.
Zachariah Lundberg: i if there are different dispensations of God's God's church and his people re rejecting him and embracing him and rejecting him and embracing him and we believe we're in the last dispensation, how much more important then does it become that we have modern day revelation? You know? Like if some of these things in the Bible or or even like is it is it blasphemous to say the Book of Mormon? Some people are not gonna like that. If some
Zach Kidd: Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: of these old stories happen to truly be like stories or legends, right, and the one thing that we know is Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation and that You know, everyone will have a chance to accept Christ. it makes me grateful that we really do believe in modern day revelation and that we are always learning more.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and and to that that that's always as I'm reading through the scriptures, everything stands out, like the parts that stand out the most are the gospels in the New Testament and then Third Nephi eleven through twenty ish, right? Like when when Christ is in the Americas. And for whatever reason, like those just shine brighter for me. Probably probably 'cause I've just studied more. than than others, but I think just something about that's really what matters is hey like focusing on Christ, right? And and coming back to him and how we necessarily got there and things like that. We'll we'll understand more down the road. And but I I I can also empathize with those that, you know, are are feeling like they need the answer now and that's okay if you feel that way. and
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah. Yeah.
Zach Kidd: and sometimes it it sucks that there's not the clarity. It sucks that there are two chapters of scripture to talk about it. Right? And
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: that's it. Right? And and you'd like to know more.
Zachariah Lundberg: We've technically got Moses, right? Book Book of Moses. Not none. But yes, it's essentially two chapters.
Zach Kidd: Yeah. Right. But still it two two chapters in Genesis two two and Moses. Yeah. like it there's there's just so much so much that we know again from a science standpoint, so much writings and and all that stuff to compare to again things that could have been been passed down oral traditions, different things, not the full context, right? We we also believe that, you know, some of those things could have been lost, you know, with just more truth, in the Bible is Again, just
Zachariah Lundberg: Mm-hmm.
Zach Kidd: not by anyone's intent. Maybe it was intent. Like there there could be intent, with some, but also just things get lost and what's important for one person
Zachariah Lundberg: I mean
Zach Kidd: in their time might not be most important for someone else.
Zachariah Lundberg: Well and and honest honest people as well make make mistakes sometimes big mistakes like we're we're imperfect as a result of the fall. We're we're mortal.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: So knowing that God is working with mortal people and that He doesn't just go in and fix everything for us
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: there's there are necessarily going to be things that make it hard to have the complete story just
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: as a result of time and human inadequacy and our desire to serve not lining up with being able to be the vessel that God needs and yet He trusts us anyway and gives us the opportunity to to be part of his work which is awesome.
Zach Kidd: Yeah. It makes you grateful, right? Like gives so much
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: purpose, right? It's it's that whole why are we here now? You know,
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: and yeah, that's pretty. Speaking of imperfections, can I take a little side tangent?
Zachariah Lundberg: Ooh, that's what I'm here for.
Zach Kidd: Okay. as I was looking into these things second prophet Brigham Young came up in in one of his discourses at a at a general conference. He said, Can I sh I'll just read it.
Zachariah Lundberg: Doctrine has left the building.
Zach Kidd: Yeah. Where we are it this is something that the church does not proclaim right now, but it's kind of fun to talk about, on here.
Zachariah Lundberg: And it sure did up until Kimball.
Zach Kidd: Yep. Exactly. There there are a lot of people again, technology, we're still trying to get to everyone. The this story's kinda cool. It's kinda fun as you're reasoning through things. but he says on here When our father Adam came into the Garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael the Archangel, the ancient of days, about whom holy men have written and spoken. He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth professing Christians or non professing must hear it and will know it sooner or later.
Zachariah Lundberg: Man.
Zach Kidd: This is this is at at the Adam God theory. that you know, Adam Adam is God. And with that partial truth that we still do believe is Adam is Michael. Right? Like that's that's
Zachariah Lundberg: Michael. Yeah.
Zach Kidd: still still very very much a a belief but yeah, being again though for and and this is kind of where we have to take a step back and and kinda give some grace to some of these leaders, right? Like the this was given in eighteen fifty. and if you think about it, like Brigham Young had less time in the church than than you and I.
Zachariah Lundberg: Cool. Yeah. That's an interesting
Zach Kidd: Right. Right. Like he
Zachariah Lundberg: thought.
Zach Kidd: He was a member of the church for a shorter amount of time. That's just how it is.
Zachariah Lundberg: for becoming the prophet of the church.
Zach Kidd: Yeah, before becoming the prophet and and still figuring things out, right? Not all things have been revealed and
Zachariah Lundberg: Not to say he wasn't a learned man. I mean
Zach Kidd: huh. Yeah. And he studied again the Bible and all that stuff and but also he he came from a background of he he liked to Like to make some noise and like like to stir the pot a bit. And you like to say some some proud things. Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: A lot of people have left the church because of Brigham Young stuff. And that's that's okay.
Zach Kidd: That's we we can understand. But again, like sometimes people will say like yeah, you he was he was crazy and it's like yeah, you kinda have to be crazy to lead a whole group of pioneers out to Utah. there there's little there's something. now having said that, I believe that there's still the priesthood authority and all that that's been passed down. And we have the right to or those priesthood holders and those with keys have the authority to receive revelation for the church and then for whatever keys they have. right, like state presidents for their stake, bishops for their wards and and all those. Like I I still believe that. but then also do you believe in individual revelation, that we we do get to come to know these things for ourselves, which is cool.
Zachariah Lundberg: the Adam God theory. Yeah, I'm glad that's not part of our church doctrine anymore. I mean it's been
Zach Kidd: Yeah, 'cause I kinda get squashed.
Zachariah Lundberg: yeah. I mean it's been fifty years or so since that changed with President Kimball.
Zach Kidd: Yeah, I mean it it says Kimball, he was very open about it. It says early nineteen hundreds, like nineteen nine, the first presidency taught that God the Father is a separate being, so but you know, what so
Zachariah Lundberg: yeah. okay.
Zach Kidd: so there's only, you know, fifty years of that probably spread. A good amount, but that is kind of a a fun hot topic to to get to win some people over. Like it's kind of fun news,
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: If you're doing missionary work. It's like hey, listen.
Zachariah Lundberg: So if you've never heard of the Adam God theory, now you know. Look you can look
Zach Kidd: There you go.
Zachariah Lundberg: up Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses. Man, that Eve was one of Adam's wives. Give me a break. Don't get me started on polygamy. We're we're gonna have to talk
Zach Kidd: Crazy stuff. I know.
Zachariah Lundberg: about that again.
Zach Kidd: We'll ha we'll have to yeah, we'll do a separate episode on that. But again, that's that's the cool part with all this is again, I I think that's where we can give him grace is as far as hey, he was still learning stuff. to your point what you made what you said, Zach, is we're still in an ongoing revelation, right? It's an ongoing restoration of of Christ's church. And And to be honest too, that that's one of those like Christ did his ministry for three years and He put a lot in place. But I also think that there's a reason why there's so many different Christian denominations because there was still some ambiguity. Right? Like none of it's totally a hundred percent clear.
Zachariah Lundberg: didn't instruct us in every single thing. Right?
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Zachariah Lundberg: He taught us the principles, but I mean he he was there to abolish the law and he established
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: the principles. I I think it's I think it's helpful and important as well to to pull up the talk from Elder D. Todd Christofferson if if you haven't read it, for anybody listening that's just like, Man, how could we have had early prophets teaching that Adam was God? or things like that, or or you hear you know, a general conference talk from the seventies, one of many that was like a a racist talk or sexist talk or you name it, if you if you look for it you can find it. There's a great line from this talk in twenty twenty in twenty twelve that isn't referenced enough that I think should be talked about more. And he he says it should be remembered that not every statement made by a church leader, pastor present necessarily constitutes doctrine. It's commonly understood in the church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often resents represents a personal, though well considered opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole church. So here's what that means for you and me. and this is now that now this is the the doctrine of Zach here. Here's what that means for you and me. The gospel to some extent is is, you know, that smorgasbord where everybody is going to have some of the little things that maybe they believe about God that are specific to them, their experience and their faith. And we'll see different church leaders that believe different things and different nuances. And even some church leaders that will probably still in future general conferences say something that we look back on either immediately or in the near future and go that's whack. So if you've ever had that thought or you have a specific church leader that you're like man what he said was not right if it's something that not every apostle or not every prophet has testified of in a public forum and in you know in in the doctrine that's listed in the church. Don't worry about it too much. If there's anything I believe really deeply, it's it's that, you know, Jesus Christ is fair and that ultimately it's all going to work out for those that that love the Lord and strive to follow him. And there's a lot of imperfections in the leaders of the church, past and present, and in the members, and he absolutely will make all of that right.
Zach Kidd: I agree. And what comes to mind with any of those things, if there ever is something like that, always make sure to take it up, right? Like and I and I say that by asking God. But also like take it up with your bishop, your state president. Don't take it out to everyone. Like that's I I
Zachariah Lundberg: Mm.
Zach Kidd: I I think you can't like obviously it's healthy to talk and and things, you know, but with with gripes and grievances I think that it's important to to pass information up through leadership. Right? And and I I've just seen in wards that, you know, maybe maybe it's something a state president or bishop said or did or something and then all the gossip just spreads throughout the ward and then people start getting opinions about leaders and and people and things like that that
Zachariah Lundberg: And if there's gonna be a ward split or not.
Zach Kidd: Yeah, I know exactly. And thing things just things just spread around. So always go up with it. Like and because with going up, that feedback also can go up the chain. Right? as as our state presidents go into trainings with seventies and with apostles and prophets, that feedback can can be taken up. And those questions can be brought up, right? For if we're we as a body are just sitting gossiping around right with
Zachariah Lundberg: Mm.
Zach Kidd: with us. Again, feel free. I I I think that's why we have ministrying brothers and sisters and that's why we have friends and you know, platforms like this where we can talk about things. but I I do think that it's important to to make sure we're getting getting the appropriate things up the chain as well.
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah. And and at the same time it's like th that's that's with the assumption that you you trust your bishop or you have
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: a good relationship with them, right? Like if you don't feel like you can talk with your bishop about something, of course that's up to you. Like go I'm always gonna be an advocate of don't go against your instincts. And I think there's gonna be a lot of things that each of us personally takes to God and we get our own answers, just like this you know, taught in James and led
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: to Joseph Smith ultimately h in his his vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ. But I love that we can go get our own answers, but It also comes back to like if you're going to do if you're going to search out a response to something or you're worried about something, like do it with God. Because you'll you'll you'll get whatever answer you're looking for if you aren't looking for a specific answer. if you're looking for evidence that the church isn't true or that the prophets aren't aren't men of God or that you know s something that you're already thinking about and you've con you've convinced yourself right there's there's a big difference between an honest search for answers and like finding evidence to back up what you already believe. Man, that's maybe that's unnecessary that I say that. Is that harsh?
Zach Kidd: No. I think that's fine. Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: I think for each of us, like in our hearts, we we know to some extent. And if there's something you feel like you don't know, I think it's worth jumping into the science. It's worth studying out and learning all that you can and then taking it to God for an answer. And depending on the answer you get, like okay. Move forward from there and wait for greater light and understanding.
Zach Kidd: Yeah, as as it's said, at the second best university in the valley of of Utah Valley. BY BYU right is learning by what is it by by knowledge and by faith? Right?
Zachariah Lundberg: Mm.
Zach Kidd: Or you you gotta gotta do it do
Zachariah Lundberg: Never went there, wouldn't know.
Zach Kidd: it with both I I didn't either, but it it was something to that effect of know, learn learn the things of the world but also with faith and and do it with God. and that's why, you know, say second best university in the valley. Probably third, fourth best university in the state. 'cause we've
Zachariah Lundberg: Great.
Zach Kidd: got got UVU's top for sure. Dixie and then the UN BYU can can duke it out. I guess it's Utah tech now, but
Zachariah Lundberg: Maybe your hottest take for for any audience that we have.
Zach Kidd: Yeah. yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: I'm all for it, but you know,
Zach Kidd: Yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: as another UVU alum.
Zach Kidd: Yep. It's important that that people recognize the greatness that we will make the N C double A Met basketball tournament one of these years.
Zachariah Lundberg: Ha ha.
Zach Kidd: And it'll be it will be awesome. But but yeah, with with all that, like again I kind of getting back to the Adam Adam and Eve thing is I I do think that it's very important. I I think I I guess really the biggest takeaway for me has been the just the whole theology around it and and the story that comes with it. I do think that it's really, really important. Because again that's they represent us, right? Adam and Eve. I I think, you know, being those two people are a representative of of us as humans and First first children, right? And and being direct children of God. Like that's that's cool. And I think that we can draw a lot of strength from that story. Whatever, you know, we come to know in the future as far as how real, how it all played in with evolution, whatever it might be. I I think principally though, it's it's good to know that we're sons and daughters of God. That We were created in God's image. And one thing just to note in that it says in Moses that's a little bit different than in Genesis that I really like is
Zachariah Lundberg: Mm.
Zach Kidd: for I the Lord God created all things of which I have spoken spiritually before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. And I I think that's important to know is yeah, you were You're created spiritually and you have a purpose and I think again the story of Adam and Eve helps us know that that when we're walking with God, there's no need for shame either. That's what I love about about the story, right? Like no shame when we're walking with God, when we're when we're listening and following him like a child, right? And letting him be a father and teach us, then Then these are good, yeah.
Zachariah Lundberg: Well and th there there's no there's no perfect child. Like
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: the perfect child is the one that tests boundaries and uses their agency to to do the dumb things. And
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: anybody with kids knows like kids have to learn by just doing it wrong sometimes. And that doesn't
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: change as we continue to grow older and And get better at different things and increase in our knowledge. And I love that the story of Adam and Eve, especially with how we believe that it highlights the actions of Eve as actually the enabling factor. That the fall was was was meant to be, that we we need to have those mistakes so that we can learn and progress and grow. Yes, that means that you know we have death and we have suffering and we have a savior for it. Jesus Christ was set forth from before earth, before Adam and Eve as the Savior. And we we always have have him and he's the reason why it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay that we make mistakes, even even the mistakes that fly in the face of reason and logic and the best thing we can do is exercise our agency and do it with God and know that there is a path back and it's gonna be okay.
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm. I agree.
Zachariah Lundberg: Are you ready for me to get off my Rameumptum yet? Am I am I am I preaching too too hard?
Zach Kidd: No, I love it. I love it. You you keep doing your thing. Yeah, I just think it's it's a great origin story.
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: and I don't know, I I said okay with that. Yeah. That that's that's kinda where I sit with it now. You know, who knows? That could change down the road. And that's the great part is I feel like I I have strong opinions loosely held. Right. Like I I feel strongly about but I'm always open for conversation and always open to be told different and and open
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: to new opinions. 'cause that's the fun of life, right? And and again that's what that's what we learn from from the story of Adam and Eve is is that Eve partook of the fruit and and
Zachariah Lundberg: Thank goodness she did.
Zach Kidd: yep. And then yeah, Adam was like, Well she did it. Puts puts blame on her, that's my favorite.
Zachariah Lundberg: Well she's gonna well she's gonna get kicked out. I'd I'd better go with her. Yeah.
Zach Kidd: Uhhuh. Yep. Exactly. So. But
Zachariah Lundberg: Well
Zach Kidd: Any other last thoughts with it?
Zachariah Lundberg: I think I'm good. I think I I I do believe the story of Adam Eve was literal. but I'm also at a point where if it's a just an important theological story that that's used, I think I'll I I'd be okay if I found out that was the case. But I'm I'm happy to believe for now that Adam and Eve were were real people. And like I feel like it it's it's great to relate with them, you know, being being able
Zach Kidd: Mm-hmm.
Zachariah Lundberg: to put ourselves in their shoes and know that like we've we've made mistakes and we live in a fallen world and that Jesus Christ is here for us. Like I think that's I think that's invaluable to remember. And when we think of Christ, his importance is be because of the fall, all that tying together.
Zach Kidd: Yeah. And I think that a as you said there, something something key is belief, right? Like I I too, like I I believe that it that it's real, that they were real people, that Adam was a prophet, that he made and kept covet.
Zachariah Lundberg: First one that we know.
Zach Kidd: Yeah, I know. In a place called Eden. But but but I I do I do believe that they are and and that he made and kept covenants with God and we can learn from that. And yeah, it's again the more the more we come to understand and come to relate to that story, the more beautiful the atonement is and the more the more we can appreciate that garden, the garden of Eden. The more we can appreciate the Garden of Gethsemane.
Zachariah Lundberg: Hallelujah.
Zach Kidd: There we go.
Zachariah Lundberg: trying to ch channel my my Southern Baptist. I I didn't I d I couldn't do it confidently enough and I don't think it landed. But
Zach Kidd: That's okay. That's alright. That's alright. For those of you on the on the pod listening, you'll need to watch YouTube. See see what he did there.
Zachariah Lundberg: Yeah.
Zach Kidd: So but yeah, so yeah again, believe. And if that's all you've got, you're you're in good company. believe, ask questions and and seek wisdom, and and ask it from above. again, if you're lacking wisdom. go up. God'll give you the answers. Might not always be in the timing that you want, but you'll get eventually. And again focus on the principles, the things that matter, and the rest will take care of itself.
Zachariah Lundberg: We'll see you next week.
Zach Kidd: See ya.
