Understanding Religious Trauma Syndrome — with Joe

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Hello, everybody. Welcome to Just Some Podcast.
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I'm Just Some Dude on the internet. And today
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I am met with my friend, Joe. Say hello, Joe.
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Hello. So today's podcast episode is going to
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be a little bit different than the ones that
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you've heard in the past. This is the first episode
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that is being recorded a live conversation between
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me and my guest in my home studio. Joe is so
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grateful as to, or I'm grateful that Joe is so
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gracious as to drive. all the way here. So we're
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going to be having our podcast episode live in
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my studio where in the past when we've talked
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with my father that had been in a remote place.
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So you're going to hear less dog jingling as
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in barking and different sounds like that. We're
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in a more controlled environment, which is actually
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pretty good because I think that this is a good
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opportunity to have the conversation that we're
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going to talk about today. So today's episode
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is special because I feel like it's the first
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episode that really We'll dive into more of my
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background for the audience. And who better then
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to share this conversation with than you, Joe.
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So for the audience, I'm going to let you in
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on it. Today, we're going to be talking about
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religious trauma syndrome. It is going to be
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kind of at the center focus of our conversation.
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But I'll let Joe speak on his experience. But
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Joe is an ex -member of the LDS Mormon Church.
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I've walked away from Christianity myself. And
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I just recently heard this term, religious trauma
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syndrome, from my therapist, of all people, who
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recommended taking a look at this subject. So
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I looked in deeper and thought that you would
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be the perfect candidate to have this conversation.
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So first and foremost, have you ever heard of
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religious trauma syndrome, Joe? No. I mean, religious
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trauma, yeah. But as a syndrome, I had no idea.
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Yeah, it's important to point out, it's not a...
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It's like not in the DSM -5. So it is kind of
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like correlated with like PTSD, but it's not
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an official diagnosis of any kind there. But
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I did some research. We're going to try something
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different. The background for a lot of this reporting
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that I've got here, I've utilized some AI. So
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my audience has heard we've done an episode on
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AI before. So the business, Just Some Content
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LLC, is now utilizing more artificial intelligence
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to research and prep these podcasts. So a lot
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of these sources that will be included in the
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show links are going to be from research based
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on Claude. So just pulling that out now. So we're
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going to be talking about some statistics as
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it pertains to RTS, what we'll say, because religious
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trauma syndrome is kind of a mouthful. But all
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those stats kind of go back to some deep research
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with Claude. I'll open this up by saying that
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religious trauma syndrome affects 27 to 33 %
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of US adults at some point in their lives. Now
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that's like a big percentage of people. I would
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wager that, you know, you go out on the street
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and you'll probably, the majority of people that
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you will interface with are probably religious
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in one sense or another in the United States.
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It's, you know, not uncommon. But yet RTS remains
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largely... misunderstood despite that percentage.
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So this guide that we're going over is a framework
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for empathetic accessible exploration of this
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RTS. And it's going to balance the psychological
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accuracy with human connection. And we're specifically
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designing this for an audience seeking understanding.
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So to open up, I know I probably should have
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said this sooner. Content warning for this episode
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in particular. If ever there was an episode for
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a content warning, this is it. This conversation
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is going to include discussions of religious
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trauma, depression, possibly anxiety and faith
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crisis. There are some crisis resources available
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to you. So National Suicide Prevention Lifeline,
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988. And there is the crisis text line, 741741.
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as well as some specialized resources, anyone
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in the audience, if you need it, the Religious
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Trauma Institute, Recovering from Religion, and
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the Reclamation Collective. Now with that, I
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will paint a picture really quick for the guests
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before we kind of dive into the rest of the conversation.
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So imagine spending your entire life believing
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that your thoughts, feelings, and very existence
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are fundamentally flawed, that questioning deeply
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held beliefs could damn you eternally. that leaving
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your community means losing everyone you love.
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For millions of Americans, this is not imagination.
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It's the lived reality of religious trauma. So
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we kind of need a core definition to speak on
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RTS so that way we can kind of have more of our
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centered conversation. So religious trauma syndrome
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describes the psychological and emotional damage
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From Exposure in Controlling Authoritarian Religious
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Environments. So it's first been coined by psychologist
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Dr. Marlene Winnell in 2011. RTS encompasses
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both the trauma of living within harmful religious
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systems and the trauma of leaving them. So it's
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not necessarily just being in it, but trying
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to walk away. Does that seem like something that
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kind of resonates with you? Absolutely. And,
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you know, before I even dive... further into
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the RTS, do you mind giving the audience a little
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bit of background on, on you and your experience
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with religion? Like maybe like how, how long
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were you involved in the LDS community and how
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long have you been away from them? Let's see,
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I suppose, uh, I was born in it. Um, and, uh,
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raised to, I, you know, got baptized at eight
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years old and they, you know, say then you're,
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they say you're choosing to be baptized at that
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age. But of course, I didn't know anybody who
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didn't choose to do that. And then when you're
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18, you're called to go on a mission for the
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church. And if you don't do that, it is socially
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suicidal, but socially quite awkward. All the
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women are taught that you need to marry a return
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missionary. Wow. And to do that, you've got to
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have worthiness interviews and certain standards.
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such as abstaining from any sexual activity.
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A worthiness interview. Yeah. Describe that situation.
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That sounds like it's kind of intense. Yeah.
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And it was the kind of thing that, you know,
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when we're waiting for our interview with the
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bishop, who's always been a good guy. All my
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bishops have been really good guys. So I just
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want to say that. And they seem to really care,
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and they're doing the best they can in the system
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that they're in, you know. But they will ask
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questions of a sexual nature to make sure you're
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not unclean, so to speak. And it's that kind
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of invasive questioning that is part of the trauma.
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Most private stuff is now their business. And
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if you're deemed unworthy, then there are social
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consequences to that. If you don't go on a mission,
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for example. it's pretty taboo or partaking of
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the sacrament every week. You're supposed to
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abstain if you, if the bishop tells you to, you
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know, and then everybody sees you not partake
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of the sacrament. I mean, it's, it's like these
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ways to see, you know? Um, yeah. Anyway, so,
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uh, I wouldn't say my parents were, were especially,
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um, doctrinaire. They weren't especially strict.
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I would say they were kind of in the middle,
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but even in the middle, uh, in this religion
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is pretty strict, you know. Anyway, I was lucky.
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I got to serve my mission, a two -year mission
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in Russia, in St. Petersburg, Russia. That's
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a fun cultural, you know. What year was that
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mission? 95 and 96 and 97. 95, 96, 97. For two
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years. And I met some people there that were
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interesting and I wouldn't, I almost wouldn't
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want to trade that experience. But, Anyway, I'm
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glad. So in that sense, I'm glad I went. But
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anyway, it was about, I guess we were around
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40 years old that we started questioning the
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church. And it was what really prompted it. At
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40, you said? Yeah. What prompted it for me is
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my son was approaching adolescence. He's getting
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old enough that he's soon going to be getting
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bishop interviews. And when I thought of him
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getting bishop interviews and hating himself
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for perfectly natural human actions. I just,
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I knew I had to take a second look at the church
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because now I wasn't just having a leap of faith
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for me. If I was wrong, then he'd be tortured
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needlessly, you know, kind of like I was. So
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I took a really serious re -looking at the church.
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And of course it didn't, when you took a step
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back and take a really honest look at it, it
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was a different story than when my whole life
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I'd been taught to give it every chance. what
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they call gain a testimony of the truthfulness
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of the church. You're pressured to make sure
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you gain that testimony and you learn that it's
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true. That sounds like a very structured and,
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like I said, almost intense experience, especially
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for young men and women. You're trying to figure
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out your place in the world. And just from what
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you had said, you're born into it. similar situation
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for me. Um, and I'm not, I'm not from an LDS
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background. I'm from, but I would just classify
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as Christian. I don't necessarily know the, the
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particular sect, but, uh, maybe like it was like
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assembly of God, but I don't know where you would
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put that under. But I was raised in a church
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that had, you know, a lot of the older generation
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of people and, um, being told, you know, like
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Jesus is coming. You're going to see him in your
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lifetime. And, you know, just, being made to
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believe from a very, very early age, going to
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Sunday school, listening to the stories. And
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I found that others that have left religion or
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didn't take religion as seriously, they would
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hear the stories and they'd go, oh, these are
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just fables or lessons that I can apply to my
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life or whatever. But for me, I wanted to believe
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and I was raised in an environment that I was
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told that... Jesus is very, very real. God is
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very, very real. There are consequences for misbehaving
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in the eyes of God and kind of created more of
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a sense of fear, I would say, for myself. And
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having your worldview shaped by fear is not a
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good thing, I would say. That type of pressure
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wears on you after a period of time. So about
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the time that... I was old enough, like around
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where you're saying like your son is, you know,
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you start asking a lot of questions and, you
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know, you don't generally seem to get answers
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that you are seeking. They just lead to more
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questions. And I'll even, I just want to touch
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for the audience as well. I know that the conversation
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surrounding religion is a very sensitive one.
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And I take the opinion, like I hold no judgment
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against those that follow a religion. I'm much
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more of the opinion that just as it is your right
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to follow a religion, it is my right to not follow
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a religion. And I ask that people respect that
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of me just as I respect that of them. I'm not
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judging anybody for getting their sense of community
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or feeling like I'm not trying to trash your
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ideals as a religion. There's plenty of good
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things that you can learn through different religions
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if you look at them under the microscope. But
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just for me, I felt... if we're talking about
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lived experiences and what I have lived through,
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it felt for myself and maybe yourself included,
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I'd like to hear your take, but that I kind of
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had to live my life in a box to fit what was
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expected of me. It was like, this is the picture
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of a good person, a godly person, a godly man,
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and that led to feelings of guilt. and shame
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surrounding, you know, perfectly normal everyday
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things. Um, and just kind of cycling through
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all of the things that I'm, I'm failing to, to
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live up to and meeting the expectations and,
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um, kind of never feeling worthy is, there's
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gotta be something I gotta repent of. Yeah, exactly.
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Or, or if it's something small, you know, that
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you kind of maybe have heard this expression,
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audience, don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
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You know, when, when you're, you've got that
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religious pressure on you and you, you are, your
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worldview has been shaped by, this is a very,
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very real and there are consequences to your
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actions. Small things become major things like
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telling a little white lie is quote the same
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as murder, you know, or whatever, you know, and
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you think to yourself as a child, you're like,
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how is that possible? What, you know, Oh my God,
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I basically killed someone. I lied about something,
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you know? And that's just a trivial example.
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But that's kind of my experience in brief as
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we are kind of jumping into this. Something that
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is interesting about RTS, so now that we've kind
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of shared a little bit of our background, I'm
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going to talk and point out some key characteristics
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and some daily life manifestations so we can
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kind of see how closely this aligns, right? And
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for the audience, I have been away from... my
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religion since I was probably, I'd say like about
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21 years old is when I finally made that decision.
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So I'm coming up on like seven years of processing
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time. I'm sorry, I got to fix my mic here. Coming
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up on about like seven years worth of processing
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time and several years of therapy to try to kind
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of unpack and dissect this. You are, how long
00:14:31.789 --> 00:14:34.730
have you been out of the? About 10 years, I guess.
00:14:34.889 --> 00:14:40.029
Well, mentally out 10 years ago and physically
00:14:40.029 --> 00:14:43.450
out five years ago, I guess. Okay. Would you
00:14:43.450 --> 00:14:46.090
say that you're still, you know, kind of processing
00:14:46.090 --> 00:14:48.769
what it means to live a life without the church?
00:14:48.970 --> 00:14:53.049
Yeah, it's just, yeah. I'm trying to kind of
00:14:53.049 --> 00:14:55.590
just get over it at this point, but it's just,
00:14:55.750 --> 00:14:58.490
it's there. It's always just seemed like it's
00:14:58.490 --> 00:15:01.840
there. I'm curious from your perspective, do
00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:04.919
you feel like when you walked away from the church
00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:08.179
that you kind of had, I don't want to call it
00:15:08.179 --> 00:15:09.980
like an identity crisis, but like trying, like
00:15:09.980 --> 00:15:12.240
a period of mourning where you're trying to figure
00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:16.279
out who to be or how to be in a world where,
00:15:16.379 --> 00:15:19.860
you know, you're not tethered to the religious
00:15:19.860 --> 00:15:22.460
aspect. Yeah, a little bit of that, a little
00:15:22.460 --> 00:15:25.559
bit of, well, what would I want if it was up
00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:28.620
to me, you know? But then you kind of think with
00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:30.960
regret back at how you would have done some things
00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:34.220
differently. But you can't do that. But it does
00:15:34.220 --> 00:15:38.200
feel like you're robbed of something. So anyway.
00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:43.080
Okay. So some of the key characteristics here,
00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:44.620
we've already mentioned one of them, that it's
00:15:44.620 --> 00:15:46.799
not officially in the DSM -5, but it's clinically
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:50.100
recognized as religion -induced post -traumatic
00:15:50.100 --> 00:15:53.080
stress disorder. It involves twofold trauma.
00:15:53.139 --> 00:15:55.639
So prolonged indoctrination abuse and trauma
00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:58.120
from leaving. It affects cognitive, emotional,
00:15:58.379 --> 00:16:00.879
functional, and social dimensions of life. The
00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:03.679
way that it manifests day to day. Here are a
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:05.980
couple examples. Decision -making paralysis.
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:10.120
So years of external authority can create inability
00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:13.379
to make independent choices. So that's kind of
00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:15.740
that thought of like, what would Jesus do? You
00:16:15.740 --> 00:16:18.240
know, or like... What has the church molded me
00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:21.559
to think and believe and respond in certain ways?
00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:25.200
What would Jesus do is always, what do we tell
00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:30.899
you to do? Because I've often thought of something
00:16:30.899 --> 00:16:35.340
to ask would be, what would the Pharisees do?
00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:38.759
Explain the Pharisees. The Pharisees were always
00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:42.320
the real strict religious zealots in the days
00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:44.960
of Jesus. And he was always chewing them out
00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:47.379
and tell them. And he was always doing things
00:16:47.379 --> 00:16:50.620
that kind of broke the law a little bit, you
00:16:50.620 --> 00:16:53.620
know, bent the law and did things and just stood
00:16:53.620 --> 00:16:56.159
up to him and said, you guys are missing the
00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:58.559
point. You guys are so wrapped up in the strictness
00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.519
of it all, you know. So now when I think of what
00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:03.860
would Jesus do, I also think of what would the
00:17:03.860 --> 00:17:05.339
Pharisees do because I don't want to do that,
00:17:05.380 --> 00:17:10.279
you know. So you think of what would Jesus do
00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:12.039
because you want to think of something that's
00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:14.180
loving and something righteous, so to speak,
00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.150
you know. Um, and the righteous, of course, righteousness
00:17:17.150 --> 00:17:19.650
that I, what I consider righteous now, what I
00:17:19.650 --> 00:17:22.470
consider back then are different, you know, because
00:17:22.470 --> 00:17:25.849
of what they taught. Yeah. That's interesting
00:17:25.849 --> 00:17:27.970
to think about the polar opposite of like, yeah,
00:17:27.990 --> 00:17:29.990
like what would Jesus do? But what is the opposite?
00:17:30.170 --> 00:17:32.150
Cause I don't want to, you know, go into the
00:17:32.150 --> 00:17:36.809
other side, uh, some other daily life manifestations.
00:17:36.809 --> 00:17:39.069
So we just touched on that decision -making paralysis,
00:17:39.190 --> 00:17:41.309
but, and this is another one that we've mentioned
00:17:41.309 --> 00:17:44.430
is that identity confusion. It's a profound loss
00:17:44.430 --> 00:17:48.049
of self when religious framework provides entire
00:17:48.049 --> 00:17:53.190
identity. And I think at least a large amount
00:17:53.190 --> 00:17:57.130
of people have probably met or seen one person
00:17:57.130 --> 00:18:00.509
that's like religion is their whole identity.
00:18:00.750 --> 00:18:04.230
They latch onto it. They go to not just every
00:18:04.230 --> 00:18:08.250
Sunday, but every Wednesday, maybe Tuesday, Thursday.
00:18:08.890 --> 00:18:13.720
They're active members of their community. And
00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:16.779
when you walk away from that, you kind of have
00:18:16.779 --> 00:18:21.359
this confusing sense of self, like moment of,
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:27.059
if I'm not there at the church, if I'm not involved
00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:29.859
in that community, what does it mean to be me?
00:18:30.460 --> 00:18:34.779
What interests do I want to pursue versus where
00:18:34.779 --> 00:18:39.440
has the church directed me is kind of something
00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:42.619
I think I have experienced in my life. Like,
00:18:42.740 --> 00:18:46.779
who do I want to be versus who do people tell
00:18:46.779 --> 00:18:50.880
me that I should be? Yeah, it's funny. It could
00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:52.720
seem like a small thing, but one of the things
00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:55.819
that I really felt pressure from the church was
00:18:55.819 --> 00:18:59.640
my career. I never thought about what do I want
00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:03.880
to do that I would enjoy doing? You know, I have
00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:06.980
the opportunity. What would I like to do? Um,
00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:09.700
but, uh, with the church, there's this tremendous
00:19:09.700 --> 00:19:11.599
pressure to make sure you make enough money so
00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:15.180
your wife doesn't have to work and provide for
00:19:15.180 --> 00:19:17.940
your family. And, and, you know, you pay tithing
00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:20.200
to the church, like 10 % of your income anyway.
00:19:20.779 --> 00:19:24.519
So, um, they, uh, so that, that was kind of a
00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:28.299
funny, that's pressure there that, um, I, that
00:19:28.299 --> 00:19:31.619
I felt, you know, and it wasn't until later I
00:19:31.619 --> 00:19:33.599
thought, what if I wasn't thinking about, okay,
00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:36.980
I've got to, what if it was different? Um, My
00:19:36.980 --> 00:19:41.980
consideration was I've got to make as much money
00:19:41.980 --> 00:19:44.359
as I can so I can have as many kids as I can
00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:47.339
so my wife doesn't have to work either. So what
00:19:47.339 --> 00:19:50.819
if I didn't have to think that way when I was
00:19:50.819 --> 00:19:52.599
in my early 20s? I just thought, what would I
00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:54.859
like to do for a living? Yeah, what interests
00:19:54.859 --> 00:19:58.619
would I like to explore? It was just real pressure,
00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:01.339
especially when you serve a two -year mission
00:20:01.339 --> 00:20:04.019
and that bites two years out of your college
00:20:04.019 --> 00:20:05.460
days. So you're kind of in a little bit more
00:20:05.460 --> 00:20:09.619
of a hurry. Yeah, it sounds like a lot of pressure
00:20:09.619 --> 00:20:11.900
to have a lot of things figured out right away.
00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:17.420
And I'm curious from your perspective, how involved
00:20:17.420 --> 00:20:20.019
maybe the church was financially to try to be
00:20:20.019 --> 00:20:23.140
like, oh, we will help you in your time of need
00:20:23.140 --> 00:20:25.880
or take care of you. Was there an aspect of that?
00:20:25.940 --> 00:20:28.059
Because I know that you would give your tithes
00:20:28.059 --> 00:20:31.000
and offerings and such. When I was unemployed,
00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:34.759
they definitely helped pay for our bills a little
00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:39.109
bit. That couldn't last forever. And unfortunately,
00:20:39.829 --> 00:20:43.549
there's what they call bishop roulette. It depends
00:20:43.549 --> 00:20:45.990
on who your bishop is. What if he's a real strict
00:20:45.990 --> 00:20:50.109
guy who didn't want to help anyone out? Kind
00:20:50.109 --> 00:20:51.869
of stingy, so to speak, with the church's money.
00:20:52.690 --> 00:20:54.930
And what about another guy who's like, oh yeah,
00:20:55.029 --> 00:20:59.289
here's a check. He's a little too giving of the
00:20:59.289 --> 00:21:03.819
money. So it's not necessarily consistent, but
00:21:03.819 --> 00:21:06.759
I do know that we were helped at the time we
00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:09.980
needed. And that's nice, except for I paid a
00:21:09.980 --> 00:21:12.240
lot more tithing to the church than I ever got
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:18.660
out of it. Anyway. Yeah, no, it's interesting
00:21:18.660 --> 00:21:21.500
to think about the tithing aspect. Just I have
00:21:21.500 --> 00:21:25.400
my own experience without getting too much into
00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:28.619
it. When I was younger, being told, we're going
00:21:28.619 --> 00:21:31.240
to go to church. And, you know, already being
00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:33.420
the little kid that's like, oh, come on, like
00:21:33.420 --> 00:21:35.259
it's Sunday. I just want to stay home. I don't
00:21:35.259 --> 00:21:38.759
want to do this. I remember having, you know,
00:21:38.779 --> 00:21:40.579
my little baggie of quarters or whatever and
00:21:40.579 --> 00:21:42.380
being told that I had to give a certain percentage
00:21:42.380 --> 00:21:44.740
of it to the church. And as a child, I was like,
00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:47.380
what? Like, that makes no sense. This is mine.
00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:50.619
Like, why would I give it away? And kind of,
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:54.440
you know, being led on to be like, come on, you
00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:57.109
know, like it's the right thing to do. Me still
00:21:57.109 --> 00:21:59.529
coming to the conclusion, no, I don't want to
00:21:59.529 --> 00:22:01.230
do that. Well, then we're going to do it anyway.
00:22:01.369 --> 00:22:03.589
God gave you that money, so he's just asking
00:22:03.589 --> 00:22:05.589
for 10 % of the back. He gave you all of it.
00:22:05.730 --> 00:22:08.210
Yeah, exactly. And I remember having thoughts
00:22:08.210 --> 00:22:11.509
of like, okay, well, if I just pray, good things
00:22:11.509 --> 00:22:15.309
will happen. Or if something bad is going on,
00:22:15.450 --> 00:22:18.109
which I have plenty of experiences I'll talk
00:22:18.109 --> 00:22:24.420
about later on with prayer. Yeah, let's keep
00:22:24.420 --> 00:22:26.180
going on the daily manifestation because I feel
00:22:26.180 --> 00:22:28.119
like I could definitely go off on a tangent now.
00:22:29.619 --> 00:22:31.480
So we've already covered the decision -making
00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:35.039
paralysis, the identity confusion. Third one
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:38.579
I think you'll find interesting is the hypervigilance.
00:22:38.619 --> 00:22:42.319
So constant alertness to spiritual or moral threats.
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:47.420
Always on the lookout for the devil. There's
00:22:47.420 --> 00:22:49.220
always something you might need to repent of
00:22:49.220 --> 00:22:54.319
or there's, yeah. You got to be so careful, especially
00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:58.420
in the sexual aspect. It's funny when it comes
00:22:58.420 --> 00:23:01.299
to sins, that is ranked so high all the time.
00:23:01.500 --> 00:23:05.119
Yeah. You know, sin next to murder is what they
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:08.039
say. So to us, it was always, okay, murder somebody.
00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:11.980
But the next worst thing you can do is a sexual
00:23:11.980 --> 00:23:16.559
sin, you know, from sleeping with your girlfriend
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:21.000
to masturbation. So all that is sexual sin. And
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:23.519
it's sitting next to murder. Thanks a lot. That
00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:25.980
really gives you a complex. So that gives you
00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:28.059
something that you can fail at wonderfully so
00:23:28.059 --> 00:23:31.619
that you're always feeling guilty. You're always
00:23:31.619 --> 00:23:34.920
messing up, so to speak. And it's just the worst.
00:23:35.099 --> 00:23:37.539
It's just a nightmare. And there were times when
00:23:37.539 --> 00:23:40.920
I would be in mid -laugh and then remember that,
00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:43.420
oh, I had touched myself two weeks ago and just
00:23:43.420 --> 00:23:47.200
feel like shit. Yeah, no, and that's a very real...
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:51.119
real trauma to kind of experience and to think
00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:53.940
about in real time. Like it might sound comical
00:23:53.940 --> 00:23:57.319
to an audience or members of an audience that
00:23:57.319 --> 00:24:00.700
have never been raised in a religious context
00:24:00.700 --> 00:24:03.240
like that, where, you know, sexual thoughts and
00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:06.579
feelings are totally normal and acceptable or
00:24:06.579 --> 00:24:10.000
whatever. I'm right there with you where more
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.019
often than not, the older that I got and the
00:24:12.019 --> 00:24:14.619
more I paid attention in sermons and stuff like
00:24:14.619 --> 00:24:17.690
that. I just felt guilty all the time. I was
00:24:17.690 --> 00:24:20.789
like, you know, I have hormones running through
00:24:20.789 --> 00:24:23.309
me. I'm thinking thoughts and like, oh, I gotta,
00:24:23.349 --> 00:24:26.309
I gotta repent for these or, you know, I'm feeling
00:24:26.309 --> 00:24:29.769
bad about feeling things. And, you know, who
00:24:29.769 --> 00:24:31.789
am I supposed to talk to about this? And, you
00:24:31.789 --> 00:24:34.369
know, am I supposed to just converse with God
00:24:34.369 --> 00:24:38.410
and make it go away if I, you know, just... tap
00:24:38.410 --> 00:24:41.670
into being a little bit more religious and studious
00:24:41.670 --> 00:24:44.869
or whatever. I can push, compartmentalize those
00:24:44.869 --> 00:24:46.869
things and tuck them away and not think about
00:24:46.869 --> 00:24:51.289
it. And it's interesting to think comparatively
00:24:51.289 --> 00:24:56.089
about other people that you probably have seen
00:24:56.089 --> 00:24:59.029
or the audience has probably seen. The Catholic
00:24:59.029 --> 00:25:02.890
Church has a history of priests and boys and
00:25:02.890 --> 00:25:06.400
bad decisions. And you wonder how much of that
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:10.500
is kind of brought upon them from this immense
00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:15.180
pressure of, you know, sex is a sin. You know,
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.299
this makes me think that there's three kinds
00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:20.980
of people, especially because you're in these
00:25:20.980 --> 00:25:22.539
interviews, you're asked these things explicitly.
00:25:23.859 --> 00:25:27.539
And what can happen is you'll have somebody who's
00:25:27.539 --> 00:25:29.799
going to lie. They're just going to lie. They
00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:32.339
don't think what they're doing is wrong and they're
00:25:32.339 --> 00:25:34.019
not going to tell him that and they just lie.
00:25:34.589 --> 00:25:37.589
So you get people who pass their interviews with
00:25:37.589 --> 00:25:39.650
flying colors because they're just lying. So
00:25:39.650 --> 00:25:41.829
you're developing that kind of person. And then
00:25:41.829 --> 00:25:44.990
you got the people who do confess the things
00:25:44.990 --> 00:25:48.690
they do and then they're punished for it and
00:25:48.690 --> 00:25:51.710
feel awful. And then you got the kinds that are
00:25:51.710 --> 00:25:55.230
either strong enough to not do those kind of
00:25:55.230 --> 00:25:59.569
things anyway. Those are very potentially the
00:25:59.569 --> 00:26:02.809
Pharisee type folks. And then you got the kind
00:26:02.809 --> 00:26:05.190
that are asexual. And there are certain things
00:26:05.190 --> 00:26:06.910
aren't even a temptation for them anyway, so
00:26:06.910 --> 00:26:09.430
they can't understand what's the problem. So
00:26:09.430 --> 00:26:10.990
those are the kind of people that ends up going
00:26:10.990 --> 00:26:13.630
on to, so you got the ones who actually move
00:26:13.630 --> 00:26:16.730
on are the ones who are either lying or they're
00:26:16.730 --> 00:26:20.130
Pharisees or they, or they didn't even, don't
00:26:20.130 --> 00:26:22.410
even have a problem. So why, why are you having
00:26:22.410 --> 00:26:25.410
a problem? You know? Yeah. So, and you got the
00:26:25.410 --> 00:26:27.410
people who are doing their best and really trying
00:26:27.410 --> 00:26:29.910
hard, but then they fail at normal behavior.
00:26:31.090 --> 00:26:33.589
feeling horrible and just hating themselves.
00:26:34.750 --> 00:26:37.730
Yeah, no, and I hope that that paints a picture
00:26:37.730 --> 00:26:41.029
for members of the audience that it is an intense
00:26:41.029 --> 00:26:43.730
thing to experience and to live with. It might
00:26:43.730 --> 00:26:46.750
sound intense on the outside, but imagine that
00:26:46.750 --> 00:26:51.890
this is reinforced by decades of going to church
00:26:51.890 --> 00:26:56.309
and being told and taught to believe and repent.
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:03.259
It's a cycle. The last two of the daily manifestations
00:27:03.259 --> 00:27:06.440
before moving forward are relationship difficulties,
00:27:06.579 --> 00:27:09.079
so damaged trust and underdeveloped social skills,
00:27:09.220 --> 00:27:12.039
as well as that fear -based living, that persistent
00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:14.900
anxiety about divine punishment or spiritual
00:27:14.900 --> 00:27:19.460
consequences. I definitely... Sorry, I drank
00:27:19.460 --> 00:27:23.140
some Red Bull. I definitely feel that I relate
00:27:23.140 --> 00:27:25.420
to that fear -based living of, you know, there's
00:27:25.420 --> 00:27:28.599
this... constant anxiety of there is an eye in
00:27:28.599 --> 00:27:31.160
the sky and it is watching me and it knows everything
00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:33.440
that I'm thinking. And then you start to kind
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:35.640
of question, you're like, you know, well, if
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:38.339
God gives me free will and I make these choices,
00:27:38.339 --> 00:27:42.000
like, you know, where's his hand in it? And you
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:43.799
don't, don't think that much, you know, create
00:27:43.799 --> 00:27:47.700
me to like this thing, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:48.140 --> 00:27:51.359
And so I feel, you know, And those relationship
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:53.359
difficulties, like I'll even speak for myself,
00:27:53.579 --> 00:27:57.700
my very first relationship lasted about three
00:27:57.700 --> 00:28:00.279
years. It was from the time I was 15 to 18. And
00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:05.160
that's an environment in which I was very, very
00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:07.500
much a believer and so was my partner of the
00:28:07.500 --> 00:28:10.519
same faith. So you have those shared morals,
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:13.160
but then the older that you get and the more
00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:16.720
that you begin to question those religious foundations.
00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:22.339
I definitely experienced the difficulty in the
00:28:22.339 --> 00:28:24.920
relationship because at a certain point, naturally
00:28:24.920 --> 00:28:27.259
in a relationship, it would progress to physical
00:28:27.259 --> 00:28:33.039
affection and more from there. And when you're
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:36.480
at that age and you believe so firmly in your
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:39.700
religious background, it's just like the sky
00:28:39.700 --> 00:28:44.880
is falling all the time. You're trying to deal
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:49.099
with the thoughts of like, In one sense, I'm
00:28:49.099 --> 00:28:52.359
enjoying my relationship. But in the other sense,
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:54.920
it's a mirror for everything that's telling me
00:28:54.920 --> 00:28:57.880
that is wrong with myself and my thoughts and
00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:01.960
my feelings and my actions. And I have to compartmentalize
00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:04.440
and put those feelings and stuff away. And especially
00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:07.240
the thoughts of like, I must wait until marriage
00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:11.420
to have this sanctity and stuff. I found for
00:29:11.420 --> 00:29:14.240
myself later on in life, it's like... You know
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:16.079
what? No, I don't really... That's part of it
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:18.140
that I don't really vibe with. If I'm going to
00:29:18.140 --> 00:29:22.420
engage with somebody, I would want to know that
00:29:22.420 --> 00:29:26.980
before marriage, if we're in alignment, is the
00:29:26.980 --> 00:29:30.140
best way to put it. And I don't know. That's
00:29:30.140 --> 00:29:32.779
something from the outside. Looking in now, especially
00:29:32.779 --> 00:29:35.559
from a different vantage point at 28 years old,
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:38.119
I can say that's the right decision to be able
00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:41.940
to allow yourself the slack to... Understand
00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:45.660
if you're compatible before getting legally married
00:29:45.660 --> 00:29:48.859
to somebody, right? Yeah. You got people who
00:29:48.859 --> 00:29:52.099
haven't even made out and getting married over
00:29:52.099 --> 00:29:54.380
the, you know, a kiss over the altar is the first
00:29:54.380 --> 00:29:57.279
thing. Or you get a situation where somebody
00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:01.640
has to stay away from somebody they're really
00:30:01.640 --> 00:30:03.859
physically attracted to and they end up going
00:30:03.859 --> 00:30:05.000
and getting married to somebody that they're
00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:07.900
less physically attracted to. Phenomenon happens
00:30:07.900 --> 00:30:10.779
all the time. Oh, man. Yeah, I imagine that that
00:30:10.779 --> 00:30:14.059
doesn't really foster a good relationship or
00:30:14.059 --> 00:30:16.640
a good marriage. Yeah, the person you're attracted
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:19.119
to is the one who's dangerous for you, so you
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:23.759
avoid them. That happens all the time. Wow. Man,
00:30:23.859 --> 00:30:26.740
what a disservice to everybody involved. Yeah,
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:29.500
I know, I know. They say have an eternal perspective,
00:30:29.539 --> 00:30:32.279
but they don't seem to do anything when horny
00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:35.480
people in their 20s... or wanting to have sex,
00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:36.980
and that's really driving them to want to get
00:30:36.980 --> 00:30:39.220
married. So they marry somebody that they met
00:30:39.220 --> 00:30:41.579
two months ago, they have a really short engagement,
00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:45.059
and they call it having an eternal perspective.
00:30:46.099 --> 00:30:47.799
That's the perfect recipe for people getting
00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:49.920
divorced. They barely met each other, you know?
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:52.680
And they're just horny for each other, and they
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:54.359
can't do anything about it unless they get married.
00:30:55.140 --> 00:30:57.779
Yeah, and then you find out after the fact, you're
00:30:57.779 --> 00:30:59.759
like, oh, there's more to life than just that.
00:31:01.299 --> 00:31:04.740
If you leave. You rush in and have kids. Yeah.
00:31:05.220 --> 00:31:09.099
Yeah. Your life can change dramatically and drastically
00:31:09.099 --> 00:31:11.799
at that age. I think you're pointing out something,
00:31:11.900 --> 00:31:14.819
you know, that is an observation I have made
00:31:14.819 --> 00:31:18.039
that a lot of people that like, so I'm not LDS,
00:31:18.059 --> 00:31:20.019
but I did grow up with people that were in LDS.
00:31:20.440 --> 00:31:22.500
You see a lot of them, you know, high school
00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:25.740
sweethearts get married very quickly and have
00:31:25.740 --> 00:31:29.660
two or three kids. And I was like, Wow. Like
00:31:29.660 --> 00:31:32.700
they, they went from high school to starting
00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:35.119
a family. Some of them didn't go to college,
00:31:35.140 --> 00:31:37.680
you know, and are the stay at home moms. And
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:39.599
there's nothing wrong with that. But like, I
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:41.660
just visualized for me, I'm like, especially
00:31:41.660 --> 00:31:45.460
now in self -reflecting, I'm like, I'm 28 still
00:31:45.460 --> 00:31:48.160
figuring life out. And like, here you were 19
00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:50.400
years old or 18. And you're like, you know, it's
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:52.380
time to get married, dedicating my life to the
00:31:52.380 --> 00:31:56.359
church. And we're going to be, you know, followers
00:31:56.359 --> 00:32:01.390
and. Make it your whole purpose, you know. What
00:32:01.390 --> 00:32:05.009
you wear, what you eat, what you drink. Yeah.
00:32:06.970 --> 00:32:08.529
This next little segment that we're going to
00:32:08.529 --> 00:32:12.109
slide into with the religious trauma syndrome,
00:32:12.170 --> 00:32:13.869
I want to talk a little bit about the scope and
00:32:13.869 --> 00:32:15.910
the demographics. So we won't spend as long here,
00:32:16.009 --> 00:32:18.789
but just to kind of understand more of what Joe
00:32:18.789 --> 00:32:20.390
and I have been talking about, how it kind of
00:32:20.390 --> 00:32:23.049
applies to the greater picture, right? So we've
00:32:23.049 --> 00:32:26.259
already talked about that 27 to 33%. of U .S.
00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:30.519
adults experience religious trauma at some point
00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:34.440
in their lives. 10 to 15 % currently suffer from
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:39.559
active symptoms. 37 % know someone likely suffering
00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:42.240
from religious trauma. And here's another interesting
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:44.859
one. Higher rates of religious trauma syndrome
00:32:44.859 --> 00:32:49.700
exist among LGBTQ plus individuals, former fundamentalists,
00:32:49.700 --> 00:32:52.460
and those with childhood religious exposure.
00:32:53.860 --> 00:32:55.440
We're going to kind of break down some of these
00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:59.079
symptoms to see where they lie. So of that 27
00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:01.599
to 33 % of the people that experience religious
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:03.640
trauma, we can kind of break down their symptoms.
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:08.920
Anxiety is about 16 .7 % of the population which
00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:11.660
experience RTS. That makes sense. Then you've
00:33:11.660 --> 00:33:15.019
got 14 .5 % that say they experience depression.
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:22.339
14 .9 % experience chronic fear. 13 .7 % experience
00:33:22.339 --> 00:33:26.960
shame, and 11 .6 % experience sleep disturbances.
00:33:28.180 --> 00:33:30.220
Any of that resonate with you? There's anxiety,
00:33:30.339 --> 00:33:32.799
depression, chronic fear, shame, and sleep disturbance.
00:33:33.079 --> 00:33:36.240
I was actually thinking of the, let's just take
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:39.079
the anxiety, and I was realizing that a person
00:33:39.079 --> 00:33:40.839
might be an anxious type person, and they're
00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:42.880
going to be anxious anyway, which is oversensitive
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:46.259
to certain things. Well, the trouble with religion
00:33:46.259 --> 00:33:51.380
is it tells you, let's see, gives you the wrong
00:33:51.380 --> 00:33:55.799
list of things that you shouldn't be doing. It
00:33:55.799 --> 00:34:00.079
gives you a list of sins that aren't sins, and
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:02.240
you think that's why you have your anxiety. It
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:04.059
must be because I'm doing this sin or that sin.
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:06.839
But if those things aren't sins, and you're an
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:08.980
anxious type anyway, well, maybe there is something
00:34:08.980 --> 00:34:11.019
else that's a real thing you should be concerned
00:34:11.019 --> 00:34:14.739
about that's making you anxious. But because
00:34:14.739 --> 00:34:16.800
of the religion, what they teach, you're not
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:18.659
looking for the real thing because you realize
00:34:18.659 --> 00:34:21.469
it's these sins. But they've told you these things
00:34:21.469 --> 00:34:23.670
you shouldn't be doing that are the bad things.
00:34:23.750 --> 00:34:25.369
And that must be why you're having anxiety. So
00:34:25.369 --> 00:34:31.989
you can mis -prognosticate your anxiety. Yeah.
00:34:32.530 --> 00:34:36.070
And I want to touch on, I'm going to take a moment
00:34:36.070 --> 00:34:41.530
to tell this story because this person is not
00:34:41.530 --> 00:34:43.889
here to tell it themselves. Of that depression,
00:34:44.130 --> 00:34:50.969
14 .5%, right? I was in high school. And knew
00:34:50.969 --> 00:34:53.730
this person that went to school with me. We were
00:34:53.730 --> 00:34:55.969
in marching band together all the way freshman
00:34:55.969 --> 00:35:01.630
year through senior year. And they were religious.
00:35:01.710 --> 00:35:05.110
They followed the Mormon church. Or more so,
00:35:05.190 --> 00:35:08.449
I should say, their parents really wanted them
00:35:08.449 --> 00:35:11.389
to follow the Mormon faith and impressed upon
00:35:11.389 --> 00:35:14.489
their family that, you know, Mormonism, this
00:35:14.489 --> 00:35:17.010
is our way of life. There's no questioning it.
00:35:17.340 --> 00:35:19.760
You are expected to go to church. You're going
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:25.099
to follow what we tell you to do. And this person,
00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:28.960
he experienced a great amount of depression because
00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:32.000
of this. And on more than one occasion had attempted
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:37.519
to take his life. And in those occasions when
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:41.880
he was caught by his parents, his father, I believe
00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:44.699
he was kind of taken and directed toward the
00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:48.239
church, right? These feelings that you're feeling,
00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:50.699
we're going to take them to the church and we're
00:35:50.699 --> 00:35:53.159
going to pray them away. And the bishops, they'll
00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:57.280
make it better, basically. And I don't know if
00:35:57.280 --> 00:35:59.679
there was a sense of shame and guilt or what
00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:04.219
else this young man was dealing with. But I remember
00:36:04.219 --> 00:36:08.159
vividly going to school one day. And this is
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:10.780
my senior year of high school and band was first
00:36:10.780 --> 00:36:14.730
period. And there's a bunch of adults standing
00:36:14.730 --> 00:36:16.889
at the front of the class. I'm like, well, who
00:36:16.889 --> 00:36:18.309
are these people? You know, and they tell us
00:36:18.309 --> 00:36:20.389
like, everybody sit down, sit down, sit down.
00:36:21.329 --> 00:36:25.590
And we were told, you know, hey, this is going
00:36:25.590 --> 00:36:27.550
to be a very difficult conversation to have,
00:36:27.630 --> 00:36:29.789
but we wanted to let you know that so -and -so
00:36:29.789 --> 00:36:37.210
is dead. That he was found in his garage, in
00:36:37.210 --> 00:36:44.119
his car. He took his own life. going to the garage.
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:46.019
His parents were still home and they were sleeping.
00:36:46.340 --> 00:36:50.519
And he turned his car on and they found him the
00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:53.159
next day. And this young man was 17 years old.
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:59.880
And it was very, very emotionally intense for
00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:03.380
me because this person had a relationship with
00:37:03.380 --> 00:37:06.739
somebody else in my family. And I had to make
00:37:06.739 --> 00:37:10.940
a phone call and they were away. My family member
00:37:10.940 --> 00:37:14.860
was away at college. And their relationship had
00:37:14.860 --> 00:37:17.960
already ended for a while. But to make that phone
00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:21.079
call and just breaking down, trying to explain
00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:25.980
what was happening. And I remember we had a candlelight
00:37:25.980 --> 00:37:29.940
vigil that night and his father was up there
00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:34.119
talking. And it just didn't really resonate with
00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:39.139
me because he said it took the death of his own
00:37:39.139 --> 00:37:41.719
son for him to realize that depression was real.
00:37:43.170 --> 00:37:49.670
And that was just gut -wrenching. And I went
00:37:49.670 --> 00:37:53.309
to the funeral and I was 17 and it was open casket.
00:37:53.610 --> 00:37:58.530
And seeing another kid, you're not supposed to
00:37:58.530 --> 00:38:03.650
be 17 and be in a situation like that. And they
00:38:03.650 --> 00:38:05.769
had his funeral service at the Mormon church.
00:38:05.849 --> 00:38:08.900
And I just remember thinking to myself, looking
00:38:08.900 --> 00:38:12.119
at the young man that was here, his body was
00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:15.780
there, and just thinking to myself, this isn't
00:38:15.780 --> 00:38:18.679
what he wanted. He didn't want this. He expressed
00:38:18.679 --> 00:38:20.860
that he didn't want this, and yet he's here.
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:24.239
He's here in this environment for who? For the
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:29.539
family? There was just so much feeling that I
00:38:29.539 --> 00:38:32.920
had surrounding the death of that person because
00:38:32.920 --> 00:38:36.300
religion, I know, played a very central role
00:38:36.300 --> 00:38:40.199
in his upbringing. And he didn't make it through.
00:38:40.579 --> 00:38:43.739
And you, you know, you kind of, I was raised,
00:38:43.860 --> 00:38:47.699
you know, the phrase that I was told was that
00:38:47.699 --> 00:38:50.739
that is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
00:38:51.579 --> 00:38:54.739
And, you know, that's, it just goes to show you
00:38:54.739 --> 00:38:57.519
like audience that you never know the depths
00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:00.000
that some people are living through because,
00:39:00.059 --> 00:39:02.800
you know, at 17 years old, you know, when this
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:05.980
kid is going home and you are, you know, out
00:39:05.980 --> 00:39:08.139
doing whatever it is that you're doing, they're
00:39:08.139 --> 00:39:10.159
dealing with this religious pressure and all
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:12.760
of the thoughts and the guilt and the shame.
00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:17.519
And they try to process it and they're not accepted
00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:21.019
by their family. And some families are not as
00:39:21.019 --> 00:39:25.079
accepting. This is just a phase, son. You believe.
00:39:25.719 --> 00:39:28.340
You tell me that you don't believe. We've all
00:39:28.340 --> 00:39:30.340
been through that phase before or something like
00:39:30.340 --> 00:39:33.960
that. And it can be very, very hard to deal with.
00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:36.739
So I just wanted to share that story because...
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:42.679
It definitely ties into what I would assume religious
00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:47.099
trauma. That is a traumatic experience to go
00:39:47.099 --> 00:39:50.480
through. So yeah, that depression is very real.
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:54.400
We talked about a little bit at the at -risk
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:57.280
demographics. So those that are leaving high
00:39:57.280 --> 00:39:59.760
-demand religions, the LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses,
00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:02.460
evangelical fundamentalism, those individuals
00:40:02.460 --> 00:40:04.360
with childhood religious trauma, I'll raise my
00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:07.880
hand. LGBTQ plus people from religious backgrounds
00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:10.559
and those deeply committed to the faith before
00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:13.300
leaving. That's another important point, right?
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:18.760
Some of us, you know, we just, when you were
00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:20.320
raised in an environment where you were told
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:23.139
that this is the way that it is and not to question
00:40:23.139 --> 00:40:25.260
it, you know, maybe you get to a point where
00:40:25.260 --> 00:40:26.639
you're like, is Santa Claus real? And they're
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:28.480
like, oh, darn it, you caught us, Santa isn't
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:30.139
real. And then you go, but is Jesus real? And
00:40:30.139 --> 00:40:32.900
they go, whoa, whoa, whoa, Jesus is real. You
00:40:32.900 --> 00:40:36.989
can't question that. It becomes very, very confusing.
00:40:39.570 --> 00:40:44.510
You mentioned LGBT. This reminds me of someone
00:40:44.510 --> 00:40:50.389
I know who left and she realized years afterwards
00:40:50.389 --> 00:40:53.710
that she was bisexual. But the way it had manifested
00:40:53.710 --> 00:40:57.489
to her when she was a teenager is she'd be in
00:40:57.489 --> 00:40:59.349
a situation where there was girls in the locker
00:40:59.349 --> 00:41:02.750
room or dressing room or whatever, and she would
00:41:02.750 --> 00:41:05.710
get... you know, in retrospect, she says, I probably
00:41:05.710 --> 00:41:08.469
got these flutteries, you know, but I thought
00:41:08.469 --> 00:41:13.650
that was Satan. And Satan and sex went together
00:41:13.650 --> 00:41:16.090
and it was a bad thing. And so it just gave her
00:41:16.090 --> 00:41:18.610
anxiety whenever there were other girls around
00:41:18.610 --> 00:41:20.590
in a way that was, you know, attractive like
00:41:20.590 --> 00:41:23.170
that. And it was only after she'd left the church
00:41:23.170 --> 00:41:25.429
and she realized, wait a minute, I was bisexual.
00:41:25.630 --> 00:41:27.969
That was what that was. Because she had an unusual,
00:41:28.150 --> 00:41:32.929
you know, repulsion with girls. Whereas her sister
00:41:32.929 --> 00:41:34.489
was like, what's wrong with seeing boobs? You've
00:41:34.489 --> 00:41:37.309
got boobs. She just didn't, you know, it didn't
00:41:37.309 --> 00:41:39.949
make sense to her sister, but now to her, she's
00:41:39.949 --> 00:41:41.989
like, oh, that's why, because I liked them. I
00:41:41.989 --> 00:41:44.130
mean, I like that, you know? Yeah, trying to
00:41:44.130 --> 00:41:45.610
push it away. Yeah, I haven't thought about it.
00:41:45.730 --> 00:41:47.730
But what a weird way to experience it. She didn't
00:41:47.730 --> 00:41:48.909
even, it didn't even occur to her that it was
00:41:48.909 --> 00:41:53.190
a bisexual thing, you know? Yeah. So, until later.
00:41:53.690 --> 00:41:56.429
Yeah, that's, it's interesting to look back,
00:41:56.489 --> 00:41:58.610
you know, whenever you have more context and
00:41:58.610 --> 00:42:01.289
more perspective on your life to realize, you
00:42:01.289 --> 00:42:04.539
know, that it's not Satan and not the devil and
00:42:04.539 --> 00:42:07.039
stuff like that. Cause I definitely experienced
00:42:07.039 --> 00:42:09.860
something like similar in, in the regard of like
00:42:09.860 --> 00:42:11.860
you're, you're told like the devil's out there,
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:14.519
you know, and he's, he's in those evil thoughts
00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:18.260
or the temptations and all of that. And you're,
00:42:18.260 --> 00:42:19.980
you're feeling like you're constantly on the
00:42:19.980 --> 00:42:21.800
lookout and being like, I gotta, I gotta fight
00:42:21.800 --> 00:42:24.679
the good fight. You know, it's, it's, it's very,
00:42:24.739 --> 00:42:28.059
very much so exhaustive, you know, after a certain
00:42:28.059 --> 00:42:32.079
period of time. I want to talk a little bit about
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:36.760
LDS case studies, particularly surrounding religious
00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:40.219
trauma syndrome, because the Church of Jesus
00:42:40.219 --> 00:42:43.539
Christ of Latter -day Saints is pretty well studied
00:42:43.539 --> 00:42:46.199
in examples of people that are leaving the church
00:42:46.199 --> 00:42:50.440
and what happens. But they're particularly, those
00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:54.000
studies, they have good examples of high demand
00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:57.099
religious exits and some unique characteristics
00:42:57.099 --> 00:42:59.909
that illuminate some broader patterns here. So
00:42:59.909 --> 00:43:03.429
a couple of statistics to go over first for context.
00:43:04.070 --> 00:43:07.949
LDS retention rates have dropped from 95 % in
00:43:07.949 --> 00:43:12.190
the 1980s to 67 % today. I'm curious why you
00:43:12.190 --> 00:43:15.070
think that might be. I'm surprised it was ever
00:43:15.070 --> 00:43:19.250
that high. Why do I think that might be? The
00:43:19.250 --> 00:43:24.230
internet. You find out stuff that you learn stuff
00:43:24.230 --> 00:43:26.250
about the church, and then you eventually learn
00:43:26.250 --> 00:43:28.719
that the church knew about this stuff. And it
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:30.559
was hiding and, you know, you were told by your
00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:32.239
bishops and stuff, oh, that's just anti -Mormon
00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:35.039
talk. Wait a minute, that's the true, you know,
00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:38.260
stuff about Joseph Smith and his many wives and
00:43:38.260 --> 00:43:40.880
stuff like that, you know. Yeah, I would have
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:42.659
to be in agreement with you, not even just like
00:43:42.659 --> 00:43:47.019
about LDS particularly, but about, you know,
00:43:47.019 --> 00:43:49.780
I'll say my experience with Christianity, you
00:43:49.780 --> 00:43:52.099
know, the more questions that you ask, you know,
00:43:52.099 --> 00:43:55.139
and the less thoughtful answers that you receive.
00:43:55.769 --> 00:43:58.650
you start seeking more answers. And in the age
00:43:58.650 --> 00:44:01.909
of information, you can get way diverse perspectives.
00:44:02.269 --> 00:44:07.170
I also took a religious studies class. It was
00:44:07.170 --> 00:44:08.829
like my very first college class that I'd ever
00:44:08.829 --> 00:44:11.610
taken for, you know, I was studying computer
00:44:11.610 --> 00:44:14.170
science, but I needed to take my different general
00:44:14.170 --> 00:44:16.130
electives. And the very first class I'd ever
00:44:16.130 --> 00:44:18.650
went to was religions of the world, you know,
00:44:18.650 --> 00:44:20.800
and you get to... I remember that. Yeah, see
00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:24.880
and experience the different religions and all
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:26.559
of that there. I feel like I'm kind of going
00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:28.039
on a tangent, lost my train of thought there.
00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:31.579
But yeah, we're talking about retention. The
00:44:31.579 --> 00:44:34.920
more that you learn, the more you can kind of
00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:37.179
make that decision for yourself of, you know,
00:44:37.179 --> 00:44:41.539
am I a follower or not? So a couple more stats,
00:44:41.699 --> 00:44:45.420
right? About one third of people raised in LDS
00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:48.280
eventually leave. I don't think that that's a
00:44:48.280 --> 00:44:51.679
surprising statistic. No, not at all. LDS women
00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:54.500
show significantly higher depression rates, 27
00:44:54.500 --> 00:44:58.599
% taking antidepressants versus 14 .5 % of men.
00:44:59.820 --> 00:45:01.659
Do you think that that might be related to...
00:45:01.659 --> 00:45:04.199
I think women are a little more, for lack of
00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:07.019
a better word, no, I didn't want to say the word,
00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:10.500
but they're, well, clinically, I think they're
00:45:10.500 --> 00:45:13.920
more prone to neuroticism. Oh, interesting. Yeah.
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:16.179
I can't remember where I read that, but that's...
00:45:16.460 --> 00:45:19.599
It's a real thing. But the church is particularly,
00:45:19.780 --> 00:45:24.400
I think, hard on them as well because there's
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:27.440
a lot of pressure. You're boxed in, and so that
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:30.059
can just create problems. But I'm pretty sure
00:45:30.059 --> 00:45:32.000
it's a higher rate than it is for women outside
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:35.659
the LDS too, right? Because you were just comparing
00:45:35.659 --> 00:45:38.460
LDS men to LDS women. Yes, yeah. I don't have
00:45:38.460 --> 00:45:41.519
the stats on non -LDS right now. The one I'd
00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:45.199
heard is that Utah has the highest rates of porn.
00:45:48.250 --> 00:45:52.150
And antidepressants use. Who can say we're surprised?
00:45:52.969 --> 00:45:57.250
To be honest, I haven't dug into the footnote
00:45:57.250 --> 00:45:59.230
of that one and verified it for sure, but I've
00:45:59.230 --> 00:46:01.630
heard it. Anecdotally, I would say I wouldn't
00:46:01.630 --> 00:46:05.150
be surprised. Last little statistical bit of
00:46:05.150 --> 00:46:08.050
context. Mixed -faith marriages are increasingly
00:46:08.050 --> 00:46:12.400
common when one partner leaves. So now we're
00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:16.199
going to talk about... Yeah, I have a friend
00:46:16.199 --> 00:46:18.360
when he left, his wife basically wanted a divorce
00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:21.360
because of that. Really? Yeah. Despite him still
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:23.179
being a good father and stuff, she just couldn't
00:46:23.179 --> 00:46:25.460
handle it. Yeah, I would imagine that that was
00:46:25.460 --> 00:46:28.179
a lot of strain, especially if one leaves and
00:46:28.179 --> 00:46:31.019
the other, it might cause them to dig their heels
00:46:31.019 --> 00:46:33.400
in more and be like, you know, if ever there
00:46:33.400 --> 00:46:36.820
was a time where I need God, it's now, right?
00:46:37.059 --> 00:46:43.130
Yeah, that's not surprising. So one of the pieces
00:46:43.130 --> 00:46:46.030
of study here that kind of came out of taking
00:46:46.030 --> 00:46:48.670
a look at the LDS and people leaving, they have
00:46:48.670 --> 00:46:51.610
classified it as the five -stage exit process,
00:46:51.869 --> 00:46:54.530
right? And I'm curious how this aligns with your
00:46:54.530 --> 00:46:57.510
experience, right? So number one is the pre -coming
00:46:57.510 --> 00:47:00.530
-out phase. So that's internal questioning and
00:47:00.530 --> 00:47:04.389
doubt. I would say for myself, that started to
00:47:04.389 --> 00:47:06.750
happen more so around my teen years where I'm
00:47:06.750 --> 00:47:09.829
learning a little bit more about how the world
00:47:09.829 --> 00:47:12.539
works and not... Just kind of accepting like,
00:47:12.539 --> 00:47:14.760
oh, this is normal all the time. You know, everybody
00:47:14.760 --> 00:47:17.519
follows religion and all of that. I'm curious
00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:19.880
for the pre coming out, the internal questioning
00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:22.380
and doubt, maybe when that started for yourself.
00:47:23.159 --> 00:47:27.719
Pretty early for me, I was a questioner and a
00:47:27.719 --> 00:47:31.539
doubter and would proudly say so. And until I
00:47:31.539 --> 00:47:35.739
gained my testimony, so to speak, on my mission.
00:47:35.900 --> 00:47:37.460
And, you know, if you brainwash yourself enough
00:47:37.460 --> 00:47:39.980
times and... Go on a full -time mission where
00:47:39.980 --> 00:47:43.199
you're doing it 24 -7. You know, about eight
00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:47.400
months into it, I knew it was true. So, anyway.
00:47:49.420 --> 00:47:51.980
Why did I bring up that? Because we were talking
00:47:51.980 --> 00:47:54.619
about when you were first experiencing that internal.
00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:58.659
But otherwise, I was kind of proud of my questioning
00:47:58.659 --> 00:48:01.880
before that. But then even after, I was a little
00:48:01.880 --> 00:48:05.340
unorthodox in my thinking. And honestly, I was
00:48:05.340 --> 00:48:08.119
quite open to listen to apostates. People who
00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:10.780
left the church for years, years before I left.
00:48:11.059 --> 00:48:15.179
Is that, do they warn against listening to apostates?
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:18.760
Are they kind of deemed as like a threat to the
00:48:18.760 --> 00:48:21.260
church? I think less, a little less now than
00:48:21.260 --> 00:48:23.619
they used to be. I think because there didn't
00:48:23.619 --> 00:48:25.639
need, there didn't used to be so many apostates,
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:27.940
you know, for people who left. For me, I had
00:48:27.940 --> 00:48:30.619
a friend who he left after his mission. He got
00:48:30.619 --> 00:48:32.420
home from his mission and he left the church
00:48:32.420 --> 00:48:35.679
pretty quick. And he's such a good guy. So he
00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:37.260
was my example of somebody who can be a good
00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:39.500
person and leave the church. But otherwise they're
00:48:39.500 --> 00:48:41.619
teaching you that that's, you know, there's something
00:48:41.619 --> 00:48:43.179
wrong with someone if they leave the church and
00:48:43.179 --> 00:48:45.320
stuff. But this guy was too good a guy for that.
00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:49.719
And so I think more and more people, even the
00:48:49.719 --> 00:48:50.960
believers in the church are probably a little
00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:52.219
more accepting of people who've left because
00:48:52.219 --> 00:48:56.139
there's so many who have. Yeah. And I mean, one
00:48:56.139 --> 00:48:58.659
of the thoughts that kind of comes to my mind
00:48:58.659 --> 00:49:00.639
thinking about apostates and people that leave
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:03.639
the religion, particularly I've heard is like
00:49:03.639 --> 00:49:06.920
Jehovah's Witnesses. that, you know, if you are,
00:49:06.920 --> 00:49:10.239
you are out, you are out, you know, like, um,
00:49:10.400 --> 00:49:13.360
prime example, I would say is like Leah Remini
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:17.059
from, you know, she was Scientology. Oh, sorry.
00:49:17.179 --> 00:49:19.119
Yeah. Not Jehovah's witness. My, my apologies.
00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:21.460
I'm talking about Scientology, the church of
00:49:21.460 --> 00:49:25.539
Scientology. Um, yeah, the, um, experiences that
00:49:25.539 --> 00:49:28.980
I've heard from those that have left, you know,
00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:32.460
that particular religion. Yeah. I would say we,
00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:34.139
I would say the church does more soft shunning.
00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:39.059
Put a word to it. The LDS Church does. The second
00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:41.280
stage, the first one was that internal questioning
00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:43.179
of doubts, the pre -coming out. That would make
00:49:43.179 --> 00:49:46.860
stage two, coming out to select others. So sharing
00:49:46.860 --> 00:49:49.559
your doubts with trusted individuals. So at a
00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:51.599
certain point, that kettle kind of boils over
00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:54.239
and you're like, I need to talk about this. I
00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:56.840
can't just journal about it. I can't just keep
00:49:56.840 --> 00:50:01.000
praying about it. I need to talk to somebody
00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:07.739
about this. The friend I said whose wife didn't
00:50:07.739 --> 00:50:09.199
believe anymore she wanted a divorce, right?
00:50:10.420 --> 00:50:15.039
She called me first when she was worried about,
00:50:15.099 --> 00:50:18.920
you know, how he was out in the church. I didn't
00:50:18.920 --> 00:50:22.039
answer. She ends up calling my wife and starts
00:50:22.039 --> 00:50:24.039
talking to her about it. I learned that, oh,
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:27.659
my gosh, my friend, he's actually left. He doesn't
00:50:27.659 --> 00:50:29.119
believe anymore. Oh, my gosh. So I called him
00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:30.539
up and said, hey, by the way, me neither, you
00:50:30.539 --> 00:50:33.519
know. So it was actually really cool. Chatting
00:50:33.519 --> 00:50:35.460
with each other about that at that point. Do
00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:38.619
you feel like having that connection with somebody
00:50:38.619 --> 00:50:41.940
else that decided openly that they're opening
00:50:41.940 --> 00:50:45.099
up, do you feel like sharing that connection
00:50:45.099 --> 00:50:48.119
made walking away a little bit easier for you?
00:50:48.219 --> 00:50:51.440
A little bit, but like I said, I had hung around
00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:54.119
and was very open to listening to apostates years
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:59.099
before that. So when I finally stopped believing
00:50:59.099 --> 00:51:01.510
myself, I already knew tons of people I could
00:51:01.510 --> 00:51:04.789
talk to about it. So that does make it easier.
00:51:04.849 --> 00:51:07.849
You can vent. And it's also nice when, you know,
00:51:07.869 --> 00:51:10.210
I have a sibling who left also. So she felt really
00:51:10.210 --> 00:51:11.750
good when she learned that I stopped believing
00:51:11.750 --> 00:51:13.389
and she didn't feel like the black sheep anymore.
00:51:13.909 --> 00:51:17.389
So, you know, it's nice. I could definitely see
00:51:17.389 --> 00:51:20.250
it having an effect on others, you know, kind
00:51:20.250 --> 00:51:22.190
of this trickle effect of like, well, so -and
00:51:22.190 --> 00:51:24.570
-so left. That finally gives me the strength
00:51:24.570 --> 00:51:26.329
to be able to leave. It's like a domino effect.
00:51:26.469 --> 00:51:28.889
Yeah, yeah. A little bit until... Those that
00:51:28.889 --> 00:51:31.949
are more deeply rooted, they're going to weather
00:51:31.949 --> 00:51:33.230
the storm. There's always going to be those that
00:51:33.230 --> 00:51:38.010
dig down and entrench themselves. And they can
00:51:38.010 --> 00:51:40.250
be real jerks, or they can also be really good
00:51:40.250 --> 00:51:43.710
folks, too. Yeah. That third stage of the exit
00:51:43.710 --> 00:51:46.250
process is exploration. So that's investigating
00:51:46.250 --> 00:51:50.090
new beliefs and worldviews. So kind of coming
00:51:50.090 --> 00:51:52.170
to the realization that there is more than meets
00:51:52.170 --> 00:51:55.610
the eye than what we've been taught to believe.
00:51:56.570 --> 00:52:00.849
Yeah. I'll even say... Suddenly a whole world
00:52:00.849 --> 00:52:04.010
of different beliefs can open up, you know? Yeah.
00:52:04.090 --> 00:52:07.969
And I will say, you know, I've met plenty of
00:52:07.969 --> 00:52:11.429
wonderful people in the LGBT community that,
00:52:11.449 --> 00:52:14.630
you know, when I think about being raised in
00:52:14.630 --> 00:52:18.750
a community where, you know, like being gay biblically
00:52:18.750 --> 00:52:23.309
is considered a sin and unacceptable, you know,
00:52:23.309 --> 00:52:27.510
seeing that, you know, people in different backgrounds,
00:52:27.630 --> 00:52:30.219
you know, lesbian people, gay people, bisexual
00:52:30.219 --> 00:52:33.840
people, non -binary people, trans people, all
00:52:33.840 --> 00:52:36.119
of these different people exist in the world.
00:52:36.199 --> 00:52:39.159
And they just want to have the same thing that
00:52:39.159 --> 00:52:43.420
I do, which is just to feel respected, that they
00:52:43.420 --> 00:52:45.519
have a place in the world, that they have a community.
00:52:46.239 --> 00:52:50.760
And what I had been raised to believe or what
00:52:50.760 --> 00:52:53.440
you would traditionally think that the Bible
00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:56.880
says is right and wrong, that comes with its
00:52:56.880 --> 00:53:00.380
own set of I think when you walk away from that,
00:53:00.420 --> 00:53:03.079
you kind of are like, well, I was made to believe
00:53:03.079 --> 00:53:06.360
that these people were bad and they're clearly
00:53:06.360 --> 00:53:10.139
not, you know, or that's generalizing to just
00:53:10.139 --> 00:53:13.440
fit the narrative that they want to teach, you
00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:15.320
know, and I'm not saying that this is every church,
00:53:15.420 --> 00:53:19.619
but like generally like ask the question, you
00:53:19.619 --> 00:53:22.340
know, to, to some people at a church of like,
00:53:22.420 --> 00:53:24.300
well, what are your thoughts on gay people? You
00:53:24.300 --> 00:53:26.739
will get a diverse perspective. Some will say,
00:53:26.860 --> 00:53:29.579
well, religion you know marriage is between a
00:53:29.579 --> 00:53:31.380
man and a woman and that's what it says and there's
00:53:31.380 --> 00:53:34.480
only boys and girls and you know black and white
00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:38.239
says thee and you know that we're not gonna not
00:53:38.239 --> 00:53:40.119
gonna move forward and then there are there are
00:53:40.119 --> 00:53:43.360
other sides of that where they're more accepting
00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:46.659
religion or you know churches that are like you
00:53:46.659 --> 00:53:49.719
know kind of embody what you would imagine you
00:53:49.719 --> 00:53:52.400
know christianity would be which is like this
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:55.650
is a place for everybody yeah So that kind of
00:53:55.650 --> 00:53:58.630
causes some internal disputes. It's amazing.
00:53:58.769 --> 00:54:02.230
But again, the Pharisees seem to gain the ground
00:54:02.230 --> 00:54:04.809
a lot. Jesus is fighting against it and his own
00:54:04.809 --> 00:54:07.949
church or his own followers in the future end
00:54:07.949 --> 00:54:09.789
up being more like the Pharisees than like him.
00:54:11.510 --> 00:54:14.389
Yeah, so that's that exploration phase. Then
00:54:14.389 --> 00:54:17.730
beyond the exploration in the five -state exit
00:54:17.730 --> 00:54:20.329
process. I do want to say about the exploration
00:54:20.329 --> 00:54:26.190
phase, I think you're right. full kinds of exploring.
00:54:26.230 --> 00:54:28.269
There's the kind that, what do I believe? You're
00:54:28.269 --> 00:54:30.610
finally answering and asking that question. But
00:54:30.610 --> 00:54:32.670
also, now suddenly the things that other people
00:54:32.670 --> 00:54:35.670
believe don't bother you like they might while
00:54:35.670 --> 00:54:37.429
you're a believer. Because, well, if they believe
00:54:37.429 --> 00:54:41.489
that, then my belief can't be true. You're talking
00:54:41.489 --> 00:54:43.789
about cognitive dissonance. Yeah, yeah. Or at
00:54:43.789 --> 00:54:46.630
least it conflicts with what the church is directly
00:54:46.630 --> 00:54:50.329
teaching, you know, like gays and stuff. But
00:54:50.329 --> 00:54:52.090
then you realize, hold on, these people are not
00:54:52.090 --> 00:54:54.190
that, and yet they're good people. you can be
00:54:54.190 --> 00:54:56.849
a good person and still be gay or lesbian or
00:54:56.849 --> 00:54:59.250
ethically non -monogamous or whatever. These
00:54:59.250 --> 00:55:01.769
people end up being actual good people and you
00:55:01.769 --> 00:55:03.489
realize you've been measuring things by the wrong
00:55:03.489 --> 00:55:06.309
metric, you know? Yeah. So it kind of opens you
00:55:06.309 --> 00:55:08.650
up to what other people can believe too, even
00:55:08.650 --> 00:55:10.769
if you don't explore it yourself. Exactly. And
00:55:10.769 --> 00:55:13.849
I think that that's an important aspect to highlight
00:55:13.849 --> 00:55:18.250
is that, you know, you don't have to blanket,
00:55:18.389 --> 00:55:21.849
you know, say that somebody is right or wrong.
00:55:22.329 --> 00:55:26.750
because they follow a different sexual path than
00:55:26.750 --> 00:55:30.269
you do or they're ethically non -monogamous or
00:55:30.269 --> 00:55:36.789
they're non -binary or whatever, the acceptance
00:55:36.789 --> 00:55:41.409
should be a universal thing. I think being a
00:55:41.409 --> 00:55:44.949
good person that you're saying, I've even had
00:55:44.949 --> 00:55:46.969
this same conversation with other people that
00:55:46.969 --> 00:55:49.730
are close to me in my life of like, I asked,
00:55:49.869 --> 00:55:52.170
do you think I'm a good person? And they would
00:55:52.170 --> 00:55:55.010
say, yes. I'm like, well, good, because I think
00:55:55.010 --> 00:55:57.690
I'm a good person. And yet I'm not religious.
00:55:58.090 --> 00:56:01.130
I was raised in a very heavily religious background
00:56:01.130 --> 00:56:03.369
and I chose to walk away. But that doesn't make
00:56:03.369 --> 00:56:05.809
you a bad person. It doesn't make me a bad person.
00:56:06.170 --> 00:56:09.050
Just our lived experiences, you chose to accept
00:56:09.050 --> 00:56:11.269
it. I chose not to. And then there's that little
00:56:11.269 --> 00:56:12.949
bit of friction that kind of comes from that.
00:56:13.550 --> 00:56:16.409
Right. Something that I always think that these
00:56:16.409 --> 00:56:19.210
things that we're talking about, LGBT, so on
00:56:19.210 --> 00:56:21.559
and so forth. These aren't things that Jesus
00:56:21.559 --> 00:56:24.780
himself mentioned at all anyway. It's like he
00:56:24.780 --> 00:56:28.079
was trying to get you guys to realize what being
00:56:28.079 --> 00:56:30.719
truly righteous means, which is loving that neighbor
00:56:30.719 --> 00:56:35.300
and being civil. This is simple stuff. And he
00:56:35.300 --> 00:56:40.139
hated that draconian strictness and all these
00:56:40.139 --> 00:56:42.500
rules. And so along comes a rule and somehow
00:56:42.500 --> 00:56:45.559
we think Jesus would be against it. What would
00:56:45.559 --> 00:56:47.179
Jesus say about that? We didn't say anything
00:56:47.179 --> 00:56:53.679
about it. So anyway. The final piece beyond reimagining
00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:57.500
relationships, which is like navigating the changed
00:56:57.500 --> 00:57:00.739
family and community dynamics, is identity synthesis.
00:57:01.079 --> 00:57:05.079
So integrating new identity and meaning -making
00:57:05.079 --> 00:57:13.820
frameworks. So for example, the belief that it's
00:57:13.820 --> 00:57:16.420
a miracle, that something good has happened in
00:57:16.420 --> 00:57:19.469
my life. It is a miracle God always provides,
00:57:19.710 --> 00:57:22.190
right? Like that is a framework around your religion
00:57:22.190 --> 00:57:25.190
that says when good things happen, you know,
00:57:25.190 --> 00:57:27.570
good things happen because of my relationship
00:57:27.570 --> 00:57:31.610
through Christ and my faith in him and, you know,
00:57:31.630 --> 00:57:36.369
God will take care, right? And then there is
00:57:36.369 --> 00:57:39.730
the other perspective, which I tend to share
00:57:39.730 --> 00:57:44.070
and I'll even use my experience, right? My audience
00:57:44.070 --> 00:57:46.329
I've mentioned without going into the full story
00:57:46.329 --> 00:57:49.449
yet, that I have been in a life -altering car
00:57:49.449 --> 00:57:53.449
accident. And I remember before that life -altering
00:57:53.449 --> 00:57:55.809
car accident, speaking to somebody about religion
00:57:55.809 --> 00:58:01.409
and how I was not identifying as religious. And
00:58:01.409 --> 00:58:07.030
here, I go home and I nearly died. And the amount
00:58:07.030 --> 00:58:11.449
of people that decided to interject religion
00:58:11.449 --> 00:58:14.449
into that experience, it was kind of shocking
00:58:14.449 --> 00:58:18.119
to me. I've had people, While I, you know, my
00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:20.199
hands were still braced up and stuff telling
00:58:20.199 --> 00:58:22.039
me, you know, well, if that doesn't make you
00:58:22.039 --> 00:58:24.000
believe in God, nothing will. And then you're
00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:25.860
stuck there kind of thinking, well, what the
00:58:25.860 --> 00:58:28.420
hell? Like, I didn't even bring this up, you
00:58:28.420 --> 00:58:31.679
know, or I'm standing in the line at the bank
00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:34.599
trying to get a notary to sign, you know, my
00:58:34.599 --> 00:58:37.280
car away so that I can send it to the insurance.
00:58:37.460 --> 00:58:39.639
And they're like, you know, what prayed so hard
00:58:39.639 --> 00:58:41.480
for you and everybody at my church is praying
00:58:41.480 --> 00:58:46.300
for you. And, you know, speaking as... you know,
00:58:46.300 --> 00:58:47.940
a non -religious person, you know, when people
00:58:47.940 --> 00:58:49.760
are saying like, God saved your life, I'm thinking
00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:51.719
to myself, really? Because it seems like the
00:58:51.719 --> 00:58:55.000
seatbelt in combination with all of the airbags
00:58:55.000 --> 00:58:57.320
in my modern vehicle saved me at a high speed
00:58:57.320 --> 00:59:01.920
rollover accident. And personally, I think when
00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:04.079
I'm trying to dig in on the religious trauma,
00:59:04.159 --> 00:59:07.079
I want my audience to think about what I'm about
00:59:07.079 --> 00:59:09.340
to say, because, you know, I'm not knocking,
00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:13.719
praying for people, right? But I want others
00:59:13.719 --> 00:59:16.820
to think about, Those of us that do not follow
00:59:16.820 --> 00:59:19.579
a religion, what prayer means to someone like
00:59:19.579 --> 00:59:24.300
me, right? You might have just gone through some
00:59:24.300 --> 00:59:27.679
of the most hard, difficult times of your life,
00:59:27.739 --> 00:59:31.179
the lowest of the low, and you have to find the
00:59:31.179 --> 00:59:34.880
strength within you to let this either melt you
00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:39.699
or you can use that to smelt yourself into a
00:59:39.699 --> 00:59:43.119
better position. But at the end of the day, You
00:59:43.119 --> 00:59:45.699
have had to put forth the effort to pull yourself
00:59:45.699 --> 00:59:49.420
out of that hole and find new meaning and find
00:59:49.420 --> 00:59:52.119
progress. And then when someone comes along and
00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:56.000
says, you know, I prayed so hard for you, you
00:59:56.000 --> 00:59:57.800
know, and look at you, you've married the right
00:59:57.800 --> 01:00:00.699
woman. You've, you know, you healed perfectly
01:00:00.699 --> 01:00:04.699
or whatever. To me, that's like somebody taking
01:00:04.699 --> 01:00:09.400
credit for all of the shit that I had to go through.
01:00:10.849 --> 01:00:13.289
Yeah, yeah, no. And that got you through it.
01:00:13.570 --> 01:00:15.929
What about what you did? I've kind of come to
01:00:15.929 --> 01:00:18.150
the conclusion that when it comes to prayer and
01:00:18.150 --> 01:00:20.489
people, like people, obviously they don't have
01:00:20.489 --> 01:00:22.449
ill intent when they say like, I'm going to pray
01:00:22.449 --> 01:00:24.590
for you. But I've come to realize that those
01:00:24.590 --> 01:00:27.650
that are religious, right, that is their way
01:00:27.650 --> 01:00:33.570
of trying to process a bad situation. And just
01:00:33.570 --> 01:00:36.750
to, you know, counter that with, you know, where
01:00:36.750 --> 01:00:39.730
your good intentions lie. There's the other side
01:00:39.730 --> 01:00:42.849
of the coin of like, to someone that is not religious,
01:00:43.070 --> 01:00:46.710
I don't believe that there is a guiding hand
01:00:46.710 --> 01:00:48.730
behind me that's like, you know what, that drunk
01:00:48.730 --> 01:00:50.610
driver that almost killed Steven, that's part
01:00:50.610 --> 01:00:56.570
of his plan. Or this is going to be a high profile
01:00:56.570 --> 01:00:59.190
example, but with the attempted assassination
01:00:59.190 --> 01:01:04.099
of Donald Trump, people like to claim. He's been
01:01:04.099 --> 01:01:06.739
saved. It was a miracle. And then I counter that
01:01:06.739 --> 01:01:09.920
with, what about the bullet that went into the
01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:12.500
man in the audience and killed him in front of
01:01:12.500 --> 01:01:15.159
his whole family? And then it becomes like a
01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:18.360
picking and choosing thing. So the prayers and
01:01:18.360 --> 01:01:20.360
the miracles and stuff like that, I just wanted
01:01:20.360 --> 01:01:24.119
to touch on that. Not saying that, again, I'm
01:01:24.119 --> 01:01:25.739
not saying you're a bad person following religion,
01:01:25.900 --> 01:01:28.500
but it is something that I just would like to
01:01:28.500 --> 01:01:30.719
point out for those of us that do not follow
01:01:30.719 --> 01:01:33.940
a religion. You can kind of accept that life
01:01:33.940 --> 01:01:36.639
has these ups and downs. And from my perspective,
01:01:36.719 --> 01:01:40.320
the only thing constant is change and stochasticity,
01:01:40.320 --> 01:01:42.900
randomness. Good things happen to good people,
01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:44.800
bad things happen to good people. Good things
01:01:44.800 --> 01:01:47.460
happen to bad people, bad things happen to bad
01:01:47.460 --> 01:01:50.679
people. And there are times when we just don't
01:01:50.679 --> 01:01:56.599
have control over what happens, but we can control
01:01:56.599 --> 01:02:00.400
our response to how we react to these things.
01:02:01.180 --> 01:02:08.159
I think there's a point made when people in religion
01:02:08.159 --> 01:02:13.139
say, pray, thank God. I think they're saying,
01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:15.739
have gratitude. And I think gratitude in general
01:02:15.739 --> 01:02:18.739
is a really good idea. People who are ungrateful
01:02:18.739 --> 01:02:21.860
aren't the happiest people and they can really
01:02:21.860 --> 01:02:26.099
handicap themselves in life. So having gratitude
01:02:26.099 --> 01:02:29.139
is great, but like you said, How about having
01:02:29.139 --> 01:02:32.360
gratitude for the sea belt, you know, and, you
01:02:32.360 --> 01:02:34.639
know, for your other fortunes that have at least,
01:02:34.659 --> 01:02:37.739
you know, with our religion, you can direct your
01:02:37.739 --> 01:02:40.800
gratitude to the things that, you know, are really
01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:43.800
there. Whereas with religion, you're kind of
01:02:43.800 --> 01:02:45.880
just giving it all to God. It's kind of a lazy
01:02:45.880 --> 01:02:49.639
way to be thankful. Yeah. Yeah. And I will again
01:02:49.639 --> 01:02:53.360
touch on, I understand that it comes from a place
01:02:53.360 --> 01:02:56.789
that is positive and trying to be helpful. Um,
01:02:56.989 --> 01:02:58.869
but just to kind of point that out for those
01:02:58.869 --> 01:03:00.849
that might not have thought of the other side
01:03:00.849 --> 01:03:03.250
of that, uh, as it pertains to religious trauma.
01:03:03.349 --> 01:03:06.050
Cause you know, from, from my experience, you
01:03:06.050 --> 01:03:08.469
know, anytime, you know, something like I've
01:03:08.469 --> 01:03:10.309
gone through a tough period of my life and someone
01:03:10.309 --> 01:03:11.989
is like, I prayed for you that whole time or
01:03:11.989 --> 01:03:13.429
my church was praying for you. And it's like,
01:03:13.510 --> 01:03:16.329
okay, cool. Thanks. But like, you know, you know,
01:03:16.329 --> 01:03:18.610
your mind was on me. That's nice. Yeah. Maybe
01:03:18.610 --> 01:03:21.769
that's, yeah. Now what I appreciate is if somebody
01:03:21.769 --> 01:03:24.230
is praying that they pray for a way to help,
01:03:24.269 --> 01:03:28.000
that they can help. And then if they came to
01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:30.000
me and said, hey, I was praying about a way to
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:32.099
help you. And then I thought, hey, maybe I could
01:03:32.099 --> 01:03:33.579
come over and just ask you what you need. Need
01:03:33.579 --> 01:03:37.320
any help? There we go. There's some answered
01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:40.519
prayers right there. Yeah, I think that maybe
01:03:40.519 --> 01:03:43.500
there's a difference between that. Like, hey,
01:03:43.639 --> 01:03:46.019
I see you're struggling. How can I help you?
01:03:46.099 --> 01:03:48.760
That's a human connection versus I see you're
01:03:48.760 --> 01:03:50.380
struggling. I just want to let you know that
01:03:50.380 --> 01:03:52.380
I'm praying for you. And it's like, okay, thanks
01:03:52.380 --> 01:03:54.380
for the good wishes. You're hoping I pull through.
01:03:55.319 --> 01:03:58.239
When I eventually do, it's not the good wishes
01:03:58.239 --> 01:04:01.760
that got through. It's always funny. Is he saying
01:04:01.760 --> 01:04:03.559
God wouldn't have helped me unless you had asked
01:04:03.559 --> 01:04:06.320
him? Kind of a petty guy. Yeah, what the hell,
01:04:06.420 --> 01:04:11.360
dude? I will say there's one thing, a little
01:04:11.360 --> 01:04:15.639
trick for us agnostics slash atheists, of which
01:04:15.639 --> 01:04:18.710
I am kind of there, you know, is... When I think
01:04:18.710 --> 01:04:21.389
about, there's all this singing in, I like Bach's
01:04:21.389 --> 01:04:24.530
music, for example. And he's always praising
01:04:24.530 --> 01:04:26.869
God. He's one of the great Christian composers.
01:04:27.309 --> 01:04:31.110
And in his, one of those religious songs, they
01:04:31.110 --> 01:04:34.170
could be singing glory to God, you know. And
01:04:34.170 --> 01:04:35.969
I've found a little trick. I'll just add another
01:04:35.969 --> 01:04:40.750
O and glory to good. Because, you know, I'm grateful
01:04:40.750 --> 01:04:43.730
for all that is good. I can sing to that, you
01:04:43.730 --> 01:04:47.280
know. And so to me, God is what is good. There
01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:49.579
we go. I can believe in God in that sense. And
01:04:49.579 --> 01:04:52.139
so, you know. I think that you're pointing out
01:04:52.139 --> 01:04:54.280
the singing too, that just triggered a memory
01:04:54.280 --> 01:04:57.579
for me. I found that when I was going to church,
01:04:57.739 --> 01:05:00.940
I was less interested in the religion, you know,
01:05:00.940 --> 01:05:03.280
stories and stuff like that. And I loved the
01:05:03.280 --> 01:05:05.780
worship services where it was like, hey, I get
01:05:05.780 --> 01:05:08.239
to sing and, you know, clap around and they're
01:05:08.239 --> 01:05:11.019
playing instruments. And, you know, for me, I
01:05:11.019 --> 01:05:13.239
think I learned from a young age that music meant
01:05:13.239 --> 01:05:17.219
something to me. And, you know, Whether it was,
01:05:17.219 --> 01:05:21.400
you know, in the car or going to a service, seeing
01:05:21.400 --> 01:05:23.500
live music and stuff like that resonated with
01:05:23.500 --> 01:05:26.239
me. So if there's one thing I can attest to that
01:05:26.239 --> 01:05:29.500
religion kind of provided me was knowing, you
01:05:29.500 --> 01:05:34.239
know, that the music had its place with me. That's
01:05:34.239 --> 01:05:37.559
cool. I want to point out before we kind of tailor
01:05:37.559 --> 01:05:39.320
into the next segment, we're almost through this,
01:05:39.340 --> 01:05:42.760
but some unique challenges with the LDS leaving,
01:05:42.940 --> 01:05:45.460
right? The first one is community integration.
01:05:45.579 --> 01:05:50.280
So LDS culture deeply embeds, is embedded in
01:05:50.280 --> 01:05:52.719
family and social life, I would say. So like
01:05:52.719 --> 01:05:55.900
you are going to the church, you know, every
01:05:55.900 --> 01:05:57.440
week, maybe you've got your events throughout
01:05:57.440 --> 01:06:00.079
the week. There's seminary for those that are
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:02.119
in high school, you know, so they're seeing their
01:06:02.119 --> 01:06:04.280
friends, their social life has built around the
01:06:04.280 --> 01:06:08.000
church. I love going to seminary for the social,
01:06:08.119 --> 01:06:10.679
especially. Yeah, no, and I knew plenty of people
01:06:10.679 --> 01:06:12.780
that went to seminary in their seventh period
01:06:12.780 --> 01:06:15.280
and stuff. A little fun thing for people to try
01:06:15.280 --> 01:06:17.840
when you're driving around and you notice a high
01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:20.599
school, see if you can spot a Mormon church on
01:06:20.599 --> 01:06:22.619
the corner. There's either two things, a gas
01:06:22.619 --> 01:06:25.420
station or a Mormon church. See if you can find
01:06:25.420 --> 01:06:28.920
those two things close to the high schools. Some
01:06:28.920 --> 01:06:31.340
more unique challenges, eternal family doctrine.
01:06:31.460 --> 01:06:33.980
I think that this is one that you might feel
01:06:33.980 --> 01:06:37.380
relates to you. Believing threatens perceived
01:06:37.380 --> 01:06:42.019
eternal relationships. That one is core, right?
01:06:42.079 --> 01:06:44.820
And I think about, um, those that are in my life
01:06:44.820 --> 01:06:47.719
that still follow religion and that might feel
01:06:47.719 --> 01:06:51.820
fear or might feel anxiety. And, you know, I,
01:06:51.860 --> 01:06:54.320
I think that this is an area of focus that I
01:06:54.320 --> 01:06:57.440
question, you know, is like, is it the fear of,
01:06:57.460 --> 01:07:00.719
you know, if, if I don't, if he doesn't follow
01:07:00.719 --> 01:07:02.900
religion and I do what's going to happen for
01:07:02.900 --> 01:07:05.420
his immortal or his eternal soul, you know, something
01:07:05.420 --> 01:07:07.920
like that, some fear of like, well, now he's
01:07:07.920 --> 01:07:10.159
going to go to hell because He doesn't believe
01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:11.980
it. Now it's going to be my mission to make sure
01:07:11.980 --> 01:07:14.159
that he does believe and it can put strain and
01:07:14.159 --> 01:07:17.599
stuff on relationships. So just something to
01:07:17.599 --> 01:07:19.860
be wary of that, you know, this eternal family
01:07:19.860 --> 01:07:23.599
doctrine kind of is at a part, like a core of
01:07:23.599 --> 01:07:27.000
it because your atomic family, you know, in a
01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:29.699
typical American society, you know, you probably
01:07:29.699 --> 01:07:31.739
are close with your atomic family or you try
01:07:31.739 --> 01:07:34.239
your best to put aside your differences. And
01:07:34.239 --> 01:07:36.599
if religion is at the core of that atomic family,
01:07:36.780 --> 01:07:39.000
you know. Well, I thought we were always going
01:07:39.000 --> 01:07:42.440
to be together, you know, and I know particularly
01:07:42.440 --> 01:07:47.380
the LDS religion has some interesting worldviews
01:07:47.380 --> 01:07:49.760
on that eternal family. I don't know if you want
01:07:49.760 --> 01:07:52.179
to touch on. Well, like I said, my friend where
01:07:52.179 --> 01:07:55.300
his wife, you know, wanted to divorce him because,
01:07:55.340 --> 01:07:57.739
well, now he's not able to take her to the celestial
01:07:57.739 --> 01:08:00.760
kingdom. You know, she needs to have a man who's
01:08:00.760 --> 01:08:02.760
going to be worthy to be with her there, you
01:08:02.760 --> 01:08:04.739
know, after they die. And now that's not there.
01:08:05.219 --> 01:08:08.300
And so it's kind of what they call. what they
01:08:08.300 --> 01:08:11.780
call sad heaven, where if you're a parent and
01:08:11.780 --> 01:08:13.840
you have all of your children and none of them
01:08:13.840 --> 01:08:16.520
are in the church anymore, then you're going
01:08:16.520 --> 01:08:18.279
to get to go to heaven, but none of your family
01:08:18.279 --> 01:08:20.119
is going to be there with you. So they call it
01:08:20.119 --> 01:08:24.100
sad heaven, you know. Wow. I mean, ex -Mormons
01:08:24.100 --> 01:08:27.960
call it sad heaven. Mormons just don't see it
01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:29.220
that way. They're just, no, we need to all be
01:08:29.220 --> 01:08:31.680
here. But I just feel bad for those parents that
01:08:31.680 --> 01:08:35.100
when so many of their kids left, when they pictured
01:08:35.100 --> 01:08:37.619
heaven, Are they going to picture their kids?
01:08:37.720 --> 01:08:39.500
A lot of them, I think, just do picture their
01:08:39.500 --> 01:08:41.800
kids coming back. You know, that's kind of how
01:08:41.800 --> 01:08:45.260
they deal with it. Yeah. But then they got to
01:08:45.260 --> 01:08:48.279
stay vigilant in order for the kids to come back.
01:08:48.699 --> 01:08:50.960
It's nice to know that I'm not the only person
01:08:50.960 --> 01:08:53.520
that experiences that eternal family doctrine.
01:08:54.439 --> 01:08:56.760
Then there's the geographic concentration. So
01:08:56.760 --> 01:08:59.539
particularly difficult for people to leave in
01:08:59.539 --> 01:09:02.680
areas like Utah where the LDS culture dominates.
01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:05.000
So that's something important to think about,
01:09:05.100 --> 01:09:08.699
right? Not everybody can just pick up and move,
01:09:08.939 --> 01:09:12.239
right? And especially if you love and care about
01:09:12.239 --> 01:09:14.579
your family, but you just, you don't want to
01:09:14.579 --> 01:09:17.739
be part of the faith anymore, right? Imagine
01:09:17.739 --> 01:09:20.000
that your whole social life, your whole town,
01:09:20.239 --> 01:09:21.840
your, you know, everything like that. Your business
01:09:21.840 --> 01:09:24.579
life. Yeah, and I think that that's even, yeah,
01:09:24.680 --> 01:09:27.399
the final piece to this was the financial consequences.
01:09:27.399 --> 01:09:30.460
Career and business relationships are often intertwined
01:09:30.460 --> 01:09:34.029
with church membership. If your finances are
01:09:34.029 --> 01:09:36.229
tied, your business relationships are tied, your
01:09:36.229 --> 01:09:38.710
social obligations are tied, if you walk away
01:09:38.710 --> 01:09:42.170
from that and become an apostate, it's like you
01:09:42.170 --> 01:09:45.670
are an alien in a foreign land. There can be
01:09:45.670 --> 01:09:49.390
real financial consequences because your clients
01:09:49.390 --> 01:09:51.289
can all be LDS in the minute that you leave.
01:09:51.710 --> 01:09:54.409
That's why you can have a lot of people who don't
01:09:54.409 --> 01:09:56.909
even sincerely believe, but they have to do it.
01:09:56.909 --> 01:09:58.289
They have to stay in it and they have to pretend.
01:09:59.010 --> 01:10:03.369
Otherwise, their livelihood's gone. It's real
01:10:03.369 --> 01:10:08.029
hard. And that begs the question too about when
01:10:08.029 --> 01:10:10.050
it comes to religion, I'm curious your perspective
01:10:10.050 --> 01:10:16.750
here, Joe. Is religion intended to recruit new
01:10:16.750 --> 01:10:20.890
people or is it intended to keep people that
01:10:20.890 --> 01:10:25.670
are born into it from leaving? I'm not even just
01:10:25.670 --> 01:10:27.590
saying like it's religion in general is intended
01:10:27.590 --> 01:10:31.319
to, but do you find that... more people are brought
01:10:31.319 --> 01:10:34.520
in to religion or people that are born in religion
01:10:34.520 --> 01:10:37.920
tend to stay and i think these days especially
01:10:37.920 --> 01:10:41.359
uh more people that are born into it staying
01:10:41.359 --> 01:10:43.560
instead of being recruited i think 100 years
01:10:43.560 --> 01:10:47.039
ago when church was kind of the the more of a
01:10:47.039 --> 01:10:49.119
base of the community and people believed in
01:10:49.119 --> 01:10:51.920
more supernatural type stuff and religion was
01:10:51.920 --> 01:10:54.079
just part of the you were religious, you know,
01:10:54.079 --> 01:10:57.140
then I can see how people could convert for really
01:10:57.140 --> 01:10:59.520
sincere reasons. And that's, that's the worldview
01:10:59.520 --> 01:11:02.300
they have. And, but I think today we're so secular.
01:11:02.699 --> 01:11:05.579
I think that, yeah, it seems, I don't know. I
01:11:05.579 --> 01:11:07.180
don't want to say it seems foolish for people
01:11:07.180 --> 01:11:09.800
who, who are not born into it to convert. I can't,
01:11:09.800 --> 01:11:12.199
I can't fault people. I don't know what's going
01:11:12.199 --> 01:11:15.079
on in their brains, but for me, I don't, it's
01:11:15.079 --> 01:11:18.359
so ridiculous in retrospect, you know, that,
01:11:22.119 --> 01:11:25.199
Well, now we're going to speak about the psychological
01:11:25.199 --> 01:11:29.720
mechanisms of the religious trauma. So how does
01:11:29.720 --> 01:11:32.979
religious trauma differ from other trauma that
01:11:32.979 --> 01:11:35.180
we can experience? So unlike a single incident
01:11:35.180 --> 01:11:38.319
trauma, religious trauma involves existential
01:11:38.319 --> 01:11:41.060
disruption. So that's complete reconstruction
01:11:41.060 --> 01:11:45.659
of your reality, meaning, and purpose. So the
01:11:45.659 --> 01:11:48.939
sacred becomes violated, creating unique psychological
01:11:48.939 --> 01:11:51.949
challenges. particularly, right? The key mechanisms
01:11:51.949 --> 01:11:55.350
here, we have our betrayal trauma. So harm from
01:11:55.350 --> 01:11:58.970
religious authorities and communities, cognitive
01:11:58.970 --> 01:12:01.149
dissonance, which we've already mentioned, right?
01:12:01.409 --> 01:12:04.310
Psychological conflict between ingrained beliefs
01:12:04.310 --> 01:12:07.590
and contradictory evidence, right? Where it doesn't
01:12:07.590 --> 01:12:12.890
matter how much fact I put in front of you. If
01:12:12.890 --> 01:12:16.189
I accept those facts, it would mean that I would
01:12:16.189 --> 01:12:19.819
have to accept The foundation upon which my belief
01:12:19.819 --> 01:12:23.819
system is built is flawed. And that is the cognitive
01:12:23.819 --> 01:12:26.359
dissonance where you're like, I cannot choose
01:12:26.359 --> 01:12:31.500
to accept your facts because it would do harm
01:12:31.500 --> 01:12:34.399
to me psychologically. It's kind of where that
01:12:34.399 --> 01:12:39.260
is. And it's a very real thing. You get the developmental
01:12:39.260 --> 01:12:42.359
impact. So early religious trauma can halt normal
01:12:42.359 --> 01:12:44.180
neurological development, which is interesting.
01:12:45.069 --> 01:12:47.090
And then there's that fear conditioning. Repeated
01:12:47.090 --> 01:12:49.750
exposure to fear -based teachings will create
01:12:49.750 --> 01:12:53.170
persistent hyper arousal. We're in this state
01:12:53.170 --> 01:12:55.430
of like, I got to be on the lookout. I got to
01:12:55.430 --> 01:12:58.590
keep these thoughts at bay. I got to keep God
01:12:58.590 --> 01:13:02.310
at the center of my worldview. You're constantly
01:13:02.310 --> 01:13:06.840
trying to keep up with... this image that you
01:13:06.840 --> 01:13:08.899
are supposed to be in, in a sense, maybe it can
01:13:08.899 --> 01:13:11.039
be considered a form of masking where it's like
01:13:11.039 --> 01:13:13.680
when I'm out and about with my community, I must,
01:13:13.680 --> 01:13:16.819
I must behave in a certain way that is socially
01:13:16.819 --> 01:13:19.720
acceptable. I will not swear. I won't, you know,
01:13:19.720 --> 01:13:22.859
partake in the drink. I won't partake in the
01:13:22.859 --> 01:13:26.539
smoke, you know, any of those. Make sure to look
01:13:26.539 --> 01:13:29.279
happy because I want other people to know that
01:13:29.279 --> 01:13:31.779
the, that the church makes me so happy. Yeah.
01:13:31.960 --> 01:13:33.920
It'll reflect poorly on the church if you're
01:13:33.920 --> 01:13:39.210
not happy. Yeah. One thing, let's take a look
01:13:39.210 --> 01:13:42.670
here, that is pretty interesting, is called the
01:13:42.670 --> 01:13:46.649
double bind effect, where religious systems often
01:13:46.649 --> 01:13:50.590
create impossible situations, inherent sinfulness,
01:13:50.850 --> 01:13:54.590
impossible perfection, leading to chronic shame
01:13:54.590 --> 01:13:57.350
and self -criticism that persists long after
01:13:57.350 --> 01:14:00.430
leaving. And that's like a big thing, I think,
01:14:00.430 --> 01:14:03.289
that kind of gives us words to what we've been
01:14:03.289 --> 01:14:06.229
describing, is this double bind. bind effect,
01:14:06.569 --> 01:14:10.409
right? I must live up to this impossible standard.
01:14:10.529 --> 01:14:13.350
And if I don't live up to the impossible standard
01:14:13.350 --> 01:14:18.930
every single day, it'll just wear you down if
01:14:18.930 --> 01:14:23.369
you let it. So it can be psychologically damaging
01:14:23.369 --> 01:14:28.029
for people that are trying their best to live
01:14:28.029 --> 01:14:30.470
up to the standard, but always feeling that sense
01:14:30.470 --> 01:14:35.939
of failure, consistent failure. I know for me,
01:14:36.000 --> 01:14:39.939
the thought or the feeling has always been that
01:14:39.939 --> 01:14:42.359
of never being enough. Yeah, you're never good
01:14:42.359 --> 01:14:44.699
enough. Yep, that's the thought that goes through
01:14:44.699 --> 01:14:50.579
my head. I know there's a sin out there somewhere
01:14:50.579 --> 01:14:54.699
that I've been doing. You've got to keep those
01:14:54.699 --> 01:14:57.880
sins under the microscope. Every week you take
01:14:57.880 --> 01:14:59.319
the sacrament. You're supposed to be worthy to
01:14:59.319 --> 01:15:03.369
take the sacrament. Now there's one thing. If
01:15:03.369 --> 01:15:06.189
only once a week it was a, hey, here's some goals
01:15:06.189 --> 01:15:08.510
and here's some ways to be better. If only it
01:15:08.510 --> 01:15:11.430
was that. But instead, it's a real like, oh,
01:15:11.489 --> 01:15:15.250
what do I do? I better repent. And again, when
01:15:15.250 --> 01:15:17.090
it comes to the really natural normal stuff,
01:15:17.189 --> 01:15:20.029
that's going to give you a complex because you're
01:15:20.029 --> 01:15:22.909
repenting of normal stuff and you're ignoring
01:15:22.909 --> 01:15:24.909
and you only have so much bandwidth. So that
01:15:24.909 --> 01:15:26.630
means you are in fact ignoring other things,
01:15:26.750 --> 01:15:31.050
the real source of anxiety, or maybe this is
01:15:31.050 --> 01:15:34.430
giving you the anxiety. Yeah, and I like that
01:15:34.430 --> 01:15:37.430
you point out that maybe this is the source of
01:15:37.430 --> 01:15:43.010
your anxiety. The unnecessary source. So before
01:15:43.010 --> 01:15:46.449
we tap into our final little act here of our
01:15:46.449 --> 01:15:49.350
conversation, we are going to talk briefly about
01:15:49.350 --> 01:15:52.970
identity reconstruction and community loss. Because
01:15:52.970 --> 01:15:55.869
I think that we've already touched a little bit
01:15:55.869 --> 01:15:59.529
on that financial intertwining in your social
01:15:59.529 --> 01:16:02.689
community. How does one reconstruct their identity?
01:16:02.810 --> 01:16:06.029
What does that experience look like? So let's
01:16:06.029 --> 01:16:08.710
touch on what we'll call the identity crisis,
01:16:08.930 --> 01:16:12.569
right? When religion provides your complete worldview,
01:16:12.970 --> 01:16:16.029
leaving requires reconstructing your identity
01:16:16.029 --> 01:16:20.069
through doing, being, becoming, and belonging,
01:16:20.310 --> 01:16:23.520
right? And this process tends to involve developing
01:16:23.520 --> 01:16:26.000
new meaning -making frameworks, which we've already
01:16:26.000 --> 01:16:29.079
touched on. Is it a miracle or is it just the
01:16:29.079 --> 01:16:31.479
world or is it a scientific fact or whatever?
01:16:31.659 --> 01:16:34.000
So developing new meaning -making frameworks
01:16:34.000 --> 01:16:37.399
as part of rebuilding your moral and ethical
01:16:37.399 --> 01:16:40.180
foundations. You don't have to throw away everything
01:16:40.180 --> 01:16:42.579
that was ingrained in you because there's a lot
01:16:42.579 --> 01:16:44.399
of good that might be ingrained from your religious
01:16:44.399 --> 01:16:48.449
experience. Tossing aside the things that no
01:16:48.449 --> 01:16:51.289
longer serve you from religion and some of those
01:16:51.289 --> 01:16:54.369
things that cause anxiety and fear and self -doubts
01:16:54.369 --> 01:16:58.609
and shame, those cognitive dissonance pieces
01:16:58.609 --> 01:17:00.750
that you can kind of lay to rest and go, you
01:17:00.750 --> 01:17:03.090
know what? That's perfectly healthy for me to
01:17:03.090 --> 01:17:05.750
have these questions. And if you don't have a
01:17:05.750 --> 01:17:08.829
justifiable answer, I don't have to accept that.
01:17:08.970 --> 01:17:12.069
And that's okay. We can agree to disagree. But
01:17:12.069 --> 01:17:16.060
if you still choose to be a follower, cool. you
01:17:16.060 --> 01:17:18.260
know, don't call me an idiot or a stupid person
01:17:18.260 --> 01:17:21.260
for disagreeing or for just being critical in
01:17:21.260 --> 01:17:23.340
my thinking, right? So I don't have to think
01:17:23.340 --> 01:17:27.140
that way. That's okay, suddenly, to not have
01:17:27.140 --> 01:17:29.460
to think that way. So that was the rebuilding
01:17:29.460 --> 01:17:33.180
moral and ethical foundations. There is the reconstructing
01:17:33.180 --> 01:17:35.779
your social identity and relationship. So where
01:17:35.779 --> 01:17:38.439
are my friendships going to lead, right? As opposed
01:17:38.439 --> 01:17:41.689
to going to... Maybe you go hit up, you know,
01:17:41.689 --> 01:17:44.550
do some karaoke on Thursdays at a place or you
01:17:44.550 --> 01:17:48.109
join a book club or go to the gym or, you know,
01:17:48.109 --> 01:17:51.609
trying to build your sense of community outside
01:17:51.609 --> 01:17:55.050
of that of the church. And this is an important
01:17:55.050 --> 01:17:58.930
piece to highlight to the audience. I think that
01:17:58.930 --> 01:18:02.310
all human beings are the vast majority of human
01:18:02.310 --> 01:18:04.970
beings. We crave connection with one another.
01:18:05.090 --> 01:18:08.539
You know, I'm somebody that loves my... my solace
01:18:08.539 --> 01:18:10.460
and being in my own space, but you know, human
01:18:10.460 --> 01:18:13.119
beings, we do like to socialize with one another
01:18:13.119 --> 01:18:16.220
and we, we have our sense of community. And I
01:18:16.220 --> 01:18:18.640
think that all of us just truly want to feel
01:18:18.640 --> 01:18:21.000
like we have a place where we belong, whether
01:18:21.000 --> 01:18:24.460
that is for somebody, it is going to church on
01:18:24.460 --> 01:18:28.319
a Sunday or going to a club on a Friday, you
01:18:28.319 --> 01:18:31.279
know, or have meeting with your game group, you
01:18:31.279 --> 01:18:33.800
know, throughout the week or whatever, like that
01:18:33.800 --> 01:18:37.159
sense of community does not have to be tied to
01:18:37.770 --> 01:18:40.489
religious purpose i think is the important highlight
01:18:40.489 --> 01:18:42.789
there that we can have our relationships beyond
01:18:42.789 --> 01:18:46.449
that of you know what is expected in in the church
01:18:46.449 --> 01:18:51.609
and then uh that identity crisis last piece there
01:18:51.609 --> 01:18:55.470
uh establishing new sources of purpose and community
01:18:55.470 --> 01:18:58.670
so similar to your social identity you know if
01:18:58.670 --> 01:19:02.609
if my purpose isn't to praise god or to convert
01:19:02.609 --> 01:19:05.449
others to this faith or whatever or to serve
01:19:05.960 --> 01:19:09.039
my God, loyally and faithfully, what does my
01:19:09.039 --> 01:19:11.680
purpose become? And now you are starting to ask
01:19:11.680 --> 01:19:15.899
the great question that everybody seems to ask
01:19:15.899 --> 01:19:18.260
themselves at one point. What is my purpose?
01:19:18.399 --> 01:19:22.039
And my friend and friends out there in the world,
01:19:22.520 --> 01:19:25.119
that is up to you to decide. That is one of the
01:19:25.119 --> 01:19:28.859
beautiful things that life gives you is the opportunity
01:19:28.859 --> 01:19:33.020
to decide what it means to pursue purpose. For
01:19:33.020 --> 01:19:35.869
some, that's art. For some, it's... science,
01:19:36.510 --> 01:19:43.329
culture. There is a vast array of things for
01:19:43.329 --> 01:19:46.470
you to explore out in the world once you start
01:19:46.470 --> 01:19:50.609
to search for what purpose means. I appreciate
01:19:50.609 --> 01:19:54.770
a statement Jesus made in the New Testament.
01:19:54.909 --> 01:19:56.430
And he was quoting the Old Testament when he
01:19:56.430 --> 01:20:00.869
said this, I think. He said, hey, doesn't it
01:20:00.869 --> 01:20:05.479
say in the scriptures that you are gods? And
01:20:05.479 --> 01:20:07.439
he's telling these people, you're gods. What
01:20:07.439 --> 01:20:09.560
does he mean by that? And I just like to think
01:20:09.560 --> 01:20:11.600
that what he means is we have this ability to
01:20:11.600 --> 01:20:15.560
choose. We're sentient and can choose what to
01:20:15.560 --> 01:20:17.100
do with our lives and especially what to believe
01:20:17.100 --> 01:20:20.319
and what's in our minds. That's kind of what
01:20:20.319 --> 01:20:22.899
I prefer to think of him meaning when he says
01:20:22.899 --> 01:20:30.090
that. Yeah. Now, the... Community loss. We've
01:20:30.090 --> 01:20:32.789
talked a little bit about this. We'll wrap up
01:20:32.789 --> 01:20:35.710
the community loss section here with a little
01:20:35.710 --> 01:20:40.270
statistic here. 39 % of former evangelical Protestants
01:20:40.270 --> 01:20:43.510
report feeling lonely all or most of the time.
01:20:43.710 --> 01:20:47.590
And that's not surprising to me to say that you
01:20:47.590 --> 01:20:51.029
feel a certain amount of social isolation because
01:20:51.029 --> 01:20:55.590
when you are going to places... trying to put
01:20:55.590 --> 01:20:59.390
on this mask of belief when you're questioning
01:20:59.390 --> 01:21:05.010
it you're you're trying to not show those cracks
01:21:05.010 --> 01:21:07.930
to others that are firm believers maybe they'll
01:21:07.930 --> 01:21:11.569
start to notice um and it's not surprising to
01:21:11.569 --> 01:21:12.850
know that like when you're in your own space
01:21:12.850 --> 01:21:15.029
and you're away from it you can kind of feel
01:21:15.029 --> 01:21:17.489
isolated like you're the black sheep you know
01:21:17.489 --> 01:21:20.170
you've even mentioned that term before like you
01:21:20.170 --> 01:21:22.869
know being the black sheep of the family which
01:21:22.869 --> 01:21:25.340
is something You know, I can relate to that thought
01:21:25.340 --> 01:21:28.479
of like, I'm different than those that follow,
01:21:28.659 --> 01:21:32.159
but it's important to remind you that it doesn't
01:21:32.159 --> 01:21:34.659
make you a bad person. It doesn't make you wrong.
01:21:35.380 --> 01:21:38.960
So, I mean, that statistic, I think, just shows,
01:21:39.119 --> 01:21:41.279
you know, you're not alone. If you feel alone,
01:21:41.500 --> 01:21:44.199
there's others that feel similar. My wife has
01:21:44.199 --> 01:21:47.000
repeatedly said that, man, maybe we should go
01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:50.680
find a church to go to, you know, just for that
01:21:50.680 --> 01:21:54.390
social life, you know. And there was a Christian
01:21:54.390 --> 01:21:56.930
church nearby that was actually pretty good.
01:21:57.010 --> 01:22:00.689
We've been there a couple of times just to, I
01:22:00.689 --> 01:22:02.909
mean, years ago to try to, because I was always,
01:22:02.949 --> 01:22:04.869
even as a believer, I would say, hey, let's go
01:22:04.869 --> 01:22:06.729
to this church or go to a mosque or whatever.
01:22:06.850 --> 01:22:10.689
We would just to educate my kids and stuff. But
01:22:10.689 --> 01:22:14.090
when we went to this one church, they were up
01:22:14.090 --> 01:22:17.189
there and they had, the guy had a sermon that
01:22:17.189 --> 01:22:18.930
was like the opposite of what we're taught at
01:22:18.930 --> 01:22:22.029
church. He was up there and he said, If just
01:22:22.029 --> 01:22:24.369
because somebody doesn't believe, that doesn't
01:22:24.369 --> 01:22:27.909
mean they're bad, you know. And the worst thing
01:22:27.909 --> 01:22:30.590
you can do is tell them that, you know, that
01:22:30.590 --> 01:22:33.510
they don't believe because they don't want to
01:22:33.510 --> 01:22:36.470
believe. Don't judge people like that. It was
01:22:36.470 --> 01:22:38.210
like this opposite. It was the opposite thing
01:22:38.210 --> 01:22:40.069
you heard at church. And that was the first time
01:22:40.069 --> 01:22:43.430
we went there. And so it always left a good taste
01:22:43.430 --> 01:22:46.590
in my wife's mouth, you know. And there's a place
01:22:46.590 --> 01:22:49.529
that can offer community. So, yeah, we've been
01:22:49.529 --> 01:22:52.390
tempted to. To go back to some kind of church.
01:22:52.989 --> 01:22:56.390
Well, here's an interesting piece that I'd love
01:22:56.390 --> 01:22:58.970
your thoughts on too with the identity reconstruction
01:22:58.970 --> 01:23:02.510
and community loss. It is the community loss
01:23:02.510 --> 01:23:06.689
impact that conditional love revelation. So discovery
01:23:06.689 --> 01:23:09.890
that religious community love was contingent
01:23:09.890 --> 01:23:13.149
on compliance. And I think that that kind of
01:23:13.149 --> 01:23:15.989
goes back to this concept that we've kind of
01:23:15.989 --> 01:23:18.010
talked about or touched on of being a social
01:23:18.010 --> 01:23:23.859
pariah, right? Maybe those that are heavily involved
01:23:23.859 --> 01:23:26.359
in the church and their sense of community has
01:23:26.359 --> 01:23:30.020
been built around it, that when they leave, they
01:23:30.020 --> 01:23:32.859
might feel like a social pariah where it's like,
01:23:33.000 --> 01:23:36.539
hey, yo, you don't follow this anymore. So we're
01:23:36.539 --> 01:23:40.000
not going to really engage in too much conversation
01:23:40.000 --> 01:23:41.960
or we're going to distance ourselves from you.
01:23:42.039 --> 01:23:45.279
That can contribute to that isolation. But it's
01:23:45.279 --> 01:23:49.260
that feeling that my sense of community love.
01:23:49.880 --> 01:23:53.359
again, was contingent on compliance. So as long
01:23:53.359 --> 01:23:55.859
as I'm a devout follower, you know, I have my
01:23:55.859 --> 01:23:58.399
community there. And then that makes it even,
01:23:58.520 --> 01:24:00.439
you know, the stakes even higher when you consider
01:24:00.439 --> 01:24:02.180
leaving because the longer that you're there,
01:24:02.300 --> 01:24:05.380
you naturally are, you know, laying roots wherever
01:24:05.380 --> 01:24:07.720
you go. And, you know, if you have an established
01:24:07.720 --> 01:24:10.460
sense of community, but you're questioning your
01:24:10.460 --> 01:24:12.779
faith and those that are in that community are
01:24:12.779 --> 01:24:16.199
firm in their faith, imagine the anxiety that
01:24:16.199 --> 01:24:17.979
builds up thinking of like, well, if I walk away
01:24:17.979 --> 01:24:21.159
is... do i lose my my friendships with these
01:24:21.159 --> 01:24:25.640
people what what does life look like with no
01:24:25.640 --> 01:24:28.840
community starting from ground zero right that's
01:24:28.840 --> 01:24:32.140
a very scary thought for people leaving a religion
01:24:32.140 --> 01:24:36.380
you have that support network collapse that and
01:24:36.380 --> 01:24:38.659
this i'm i won't touch on that even farther than
01:24:38.659 --> 01:24:40.439
we already have but it's like that's your loss
01:24:40.439 --> 01:24:43.539
of your entire entire social infrastructure and
01:24:43.539 --> 01:24:45.680
that can be devastating to people especially
01:24:46.590 --> 01:24:49.670
if you are in a geographic location where religion
01:24:49.670 --> 01:24:53.210
is the law, you know, like you look down upon
01:24:53.210 --> 01:24:56.350
like, you know, we here in this community, you
01:24:56.350 --> 01:24:58.369
know, we are firm believers in this faith. And
01:24:58.369 --> 01:25:01.869
if you don't follow, you know, we reserve the
01:25:01.869 --> 01:25:03.810
right to judge you and we will judge you hard,
01:25:03.850 --> 01:25:08.270
you know, and that if you can't leave that scenario
01:25:08.270 --> 01:25:11.649
and you're that social pariah in your town, you
01:25:11.649 --> 01:25:14.829
know, that just sounds like a very stressful.
01:25:15.470 --> 01:25:17.930
not fun situation to be in. So if you're like
01:25:17.930 --> 01:25:20.550
in the Bible belt and you don't follow a religion
01:25:20.550 --> 01:25:22.750
or you've walked away, I can imagine that you
01:25:22.750 --> 01:25:25.270
were in a very much more intimidating situation
01:25:25.270 --> 01:25:28.130
than you would be if you were in like LA and
01:25:28.130 --> 01:25:30.890
decided to walk away from your religion or in
01:25:30.890 --> 01:25:34.470
Oregon, for example. Luckily it's getting more
01:25:34.470 --> 01:25:39.270
popular leaving. So we're getting Utah. Oh yeah,
01:25:39.289 --> 01:25:41.270
it is. It's getting more popular to leave. Yeah.
01:25:41.350 --> 01:25:43.609
I can, I can imagine probably that darn internet.
01:25:44.409 --> 01:25:47.550
So before we get to our final piece here on the
01:25:47.550 --> 01:25:49.710
healing and moving forward, I want to touch on
01:25:49.710 --> 01:25:52.630
that moral re -anchoring piece because we have
01:25:52.630 --> 01:25:54.529
definitely touched on this, you know, the thought
01:25:54.529 --> 01:25:58.149
of like where my morals develop from, you know,
01:25:58.149 --> 01:26:00.550
if they're rooted in religion, how do I re -anchor
01:26:00.550 --> 01:26:03.770
my morals or my worldview posts moving forward,
01:26:03.949 --> 01:26:07.310
right? Former religious individuals must develop
01:26:07.310 --> 01:26:11.739
secular ethical frameworks. They often... discover
01:26:11.739 --> 01:26:15.640
that moral institutions exist independently of
01:26:15.640 --> 01:26:17.960
the religious authority. And this process tends
01:26:17.960 --> 01:26:20.979
to involve evaluating previously held beliefs
01:26:20.979 --> 01:26:24.340
against your personal values, developing internal
01:26:24.340 --> 01:26:28.399
moral compass, exploring secular humanism and
01:26:28.399 --> 01:26:31.720
consequentialism or virtue ethics, and maintaining
01:26:31.720 --> 01:26:34.100
core moral principles while rejecting religious
01:26:34.100 --> 01:26:36.699
authority. And I mean, that ties exactly into
01:26:36.699 --> 01:26:39.479
what we had said, which is like, Set aside the
01:26:39.479 --> 01:26:42.560
pieces that no longer serve you while, you know,
01:26:42.560 --> 01:26:45.840
you can keep the core pieces that serve as, you
01:26:45.840 --> 01:26:47.640
know, a good part of your identity and knowing
01:26:47.640 --> 01:26:50.319
right and wrong, you know, there's, I'm not saying
01:26:50.319 --> 01:26:53.000
that you should walk away from every belief that
01:26:53.000 --> 01:26:56.619
you have had, you know, but more so critically
01:26:56.619 --> 01:27:02.340
analyze the pieces for yourself and choose what
01:27:02.340 --> 01:27:04.720
to put away if it doesn't serve you. And that
01:27:04.720 --> 01:27:08.510
takes a while. Yeah. What are your thoughts on
01:27:08.510 --> 01:27:10.989
that moral re -anchoring side? Maybe if you've
01:27:10.989 --> 01:27:14.789
had to experience any of that yourself. Yeah,
01:27:14.789 --> 01:27:18.810
I think, again, being fairly nuanced before I
01:27:18.810 --> 01:27:21.069
left, that probably helped me that I didn't really
01:27:21.069 --> 01:27:25.489
spiral too badly. We know multiple people who
01:27:25.489 --> 01:27:27.850
left the church and then they just kind of just
01:27:27.850 --> 01:27:31.149
went crazy with the partying and stuff and end
01:27:31.149 --> 01:27:33.909
up, hey, it's fine to have a party, but they
01:27:33.909 --> 01:27:36.909
ended up ignoring their family. because of the
01:27:36.909 --> 01:27:38.409
party. Swing in the other direction. Yeah, so
01:27:38.409 --> 01:27:41.289
you get people who are so active in the church
01:27:41.289 --> 01:27:44.250
that they kind of, especially bishops, will get
01:27:44.250 --> 01:27:46.470
these heavy callings and stuff, and they can
01:27:46.470 --> 01:27:48.050
end up ignoring their family in that way because
01:27:48.050 --> 01:27:50.569
too much time has been spent with the church.
01:27:50.869 --> 01:27:53.930
Then you get the other way, and you get somebody
01:27:53.930 --> 01:27:56.090
who goes out and says, well, I'm going to, again,
01:27:56.510 --> 01:27:59.010
we know some people who they decide to go and
01:27:59.010 --> 01:28:01.310
party their brains out, and they had the means
01:28:01.310 --> 01:28:04.369
to do it, and again, ignore their family and
01:28:04.369 --> 01:28:07.100
end up, you know, consequences are not, not good.
01:28:07.560 --> 01:28:09.859
So, um, it is too bad. It's kind of like, uh,
01:28:10.579 --> 01:28:12.680
you, your whole life you've, you've, you've been
01:28:12.680 --> 01:28:14.579
getting around on a wheelchair and then suddenly
01:28:14.579 --> 01:28:16.239
one day they tell you, yeah, you don't, you can
01:28:16.239 --> 01:28:17.760
walk on your own, but you haven't developed the
01:28:17.760 --> 01:28:21.279
strength to, to walk, you know? Yeah. So your,
01:28:21.359 --> 01:28:23.619
your, your morals are literally swept out from
01:28:23.619 --> 01:28:26.039
under you because, you know, you don't, you don't
01:28:26.039 --> 01:28:27.680
right and wrong come from another source now.
01:28:27.739 --> 01:28:30.079
So it's pretty scary, but I can safely say that
01:28:30.079 --> 01:28:32.739
we were very deliberate in any of our choices
01:28:32.739 --> 01:28:36.500
afterwards to whether you know, to start trying
01:28:36.500 --> 01:28:40.979
alcohol or a few other things. But we really
01:28:40.979 --> 01:28:45.439
were vigilant. And I'd say, so the advice I give
01:28:45.439 --> 01:28:48.600
is go slow. Don't just, you know, don't just
01:28:48.600 --> 01:28:50.960
drop everything. Just think about things and
01:28:50.960 --> 01:28:53.060
you can, then you can do what you want, but at
01:28:53.060 --> 01:28:56.300
least think over them for a while. Yeah, yeah.
01:28:56.640 --> 01:29:00.220
And it's totally normal and healthy to, you know,
01:29:00.220 --> 01:29:03.539
if you're leaving the religion to, Want to experience
01:29:03.539 --> 01:29:07.039
new things like partying and maybe there's an
01:29:07.039 --> 01:29:10.380
element of drugs or alcohol or whatever. But
01:29:10.380 --> 01:29:13.319
yeah, being thoughtful in your approach, knowing
01:29:13.319 --> 01:29:15.659
that you don't have to do everything all at once.
01:29:15.699 --> 01:29:18.619
And that pendulum doesn't need to swing from
01:29:18.619 --> 01:29:21.979
one extreme to the other that you can take your
01:29:21.979 --> 01:29:25.560
time. Life is a process and the healing and moving
01:29:25.560 --> 01:29:27.859
forward and experiencing the world is a process.
01:29:28.359 --> 01:29:33.180
So I think everything in moderation. Right. It's
01:29:33.180 --> 01:29:35.380
probably the advice that I would give whenever
01:29:35.380 --> 01:29:39.399
you're moving forward. You'll realize without
01:29:39.399 --> 01:29:42.199
the framework of religion, it's like when I get
01:29:42.199 --> 01:29:44.159
to choose who I want to be and where I want to
01:29:44.159 --> 01:29:47.319
go, I could be in a situation that I would never
01:29:47.319 --> 01:29:50.140
be in, you know, if I was a follower of the church.
01:29:50.220 --> 01:29:54.539
But like, you know, just thinking more for yourself.
01:29:55.479 --> 01:29:58.520
And it's not easy sometimes. Again, if your whole
01:29:58.520 --> 01:30:00.239
life you've raised to think right and wrong and
01:30:00.239 --> 01:30:03.210
to find a certain way. Well, now what's right
01:30:03.210 --> 01:30:07.270
and wrong now? That's one of the tragic things
01:30:07.270 --> 01:30:09.970
about religion, I'll say. Yeah, because then
01:30:09.970 --> 01:30:13.250
you start getting into like different people
01:30:13.250 --> 01:30:15.029
believe different things are right and wrong.
01:30:15.109 --> 01:30:17.970
And it's a gradient, right? And we're trying
01:30:17.970 --> 01:30:20.270
to approach this from a place of acceptance.
01:30:20.810 --> 01:30:24.430
And in religion, it's pretty shallow, I think,
01:30:24.449 --> 01:30:27.010
at times. Plenty of atheists will say this. So
01:30:27.010 --> 01:30:28.989
you mean we wouldn't be nice to your neighbor?
01:30:29.600 --> 01:30:32.239
Except that you're given rewards in the afterlife
01:30:32.239 --> 01:30:35.300
after you die. You need that to be nice to people.
01:30:36.060 --> 01:30:41.939
I think that the people that are in my life that
01:30:41.939 --> 01:30:43.920
are still followers of religion, they're not
01:30:43.920 --> 01:30:47.100
modeling themselves like that because it's like,
01:30:47.180 --> 01:30:50.000
I want to... you know, get to heaven or whatever.
01:30:50.220 --> 01:30:52.720
Like they, they are just genuinely good people
01:30:52.720 --> 01:30:55.680
too. So it's, but they're often will argue like,
01:30:55.739 --> 01:30:56.720
well, how do you know what's right and wrong
01:30:56.720 --> 01:30:58.739
then? They'll say that, you know? So, and I said
01:30:58.739 --> 01:31:02.500
that, you know, at some point in my belief system,
01:31:02.600 --> 01:31:03.800
well, how do you know right and wrong? I was
01:31:03.800 --> 01:31:07.220
talking to an atheist and anyway. Yeah, no. And
01:31:07.220 --> 01:31:09.279
I, I think that that's, you're, you're bringing
01:31:09.279 --> 01:31:11.600
up like a whole conversation that we could have
01:31:11.600 --> 01:31:13.380
of like with, with somebody that is religious,
01:31:13.399 --> 01:31:16.060
that's just, you know, how is your worldview?
01:31:17.039 --> 01:31:19.479
and digging into, you know, what do you believe
01:31:19.479 --> 01:31:21.159
is right and wrong and why do you believe those
01:31:21.159 --> 01:31:23.760
things? I think that that's the more interesting
01:31:23.760 --> 01:31:27.260
aspect because you can tap into those of us that
01:31:27.260 --> 01:31:30.020
have been in religion and left and ask us about
01:31:30.020 --> 01:31:32.159
our morals and, you know, right and wrong without
01:31:32.159 --> 01:31:35.539
having religion tied to it. Curious as well to
01:31:35.539 --> 01:31:37.859
those that have never been involved in a religion
01:31:37.859 --> 01:31:41.159
and how they view right and wrong. But at the
01:31:41.159 --> 01:31:42.680
end of the day, you know, we're coming from a
01:31:42.680 --> 01:31:45.779
place of acceptance. It's never, you know, a
01:31:45.779 --> 01:31:47.859
place where I'm trying to tear down those people
01:31:47.859 --> 01:31:50.840
with religion. So the final segments here that
01:31:50.840 --> 01:31:52.060
we're going to talk about, I know that we've
01:31:52.060 --> 01:31:53.739
been talking for a while, but there's just so
01:31:53.739 --> 01:31:56.560
much to this. We could probably have multiple
01:31:56.560 --> 01:31:59.140
episodes talking about religion of all different
01:31:59.140 --> 01:32:02.619
kinds, but kind of wrapping up our conversation
01:32:02.619 --> 01:32:06.000
on religious trauma, we want to talk a little
01:32:06.000 --> 01:32:07.819
bit about healing and moving forward and what
01:32:07.819 --> 01:32:12.000
that looks like. So I want to touch on some common
01:32:12.000 --> 01:32:14.810
misconceptions. and realities when it comes to
01:32:14.810 --> 01:32:16.909
religious trauma syndrome. So some myths and
01:32:16.909 --> 01:32:20.270
realities. I got five. So myth number one, religious
01:32:20.270 --> 01:32:23.710
trauma only happens to people who leave their
01:32:23.710 --> 01:32:27.010
faith. The reality is that many experience trauma
01:32:27.010 --> 01:32:29.850
while remaining within religious communities.
01:32:30.130 --> 01:32:33.970
You don't want to leave. You're still holding
01:32:33.970 --> 01:32:38.250
on, right? So important to know that. Myth number
01:32:38.250 --> 01:32:42.199
two, only certain religions cause trauma. And
01:32:42.199 --> 01:32:44.880
the reality is that RTS is documented across
01:32:44.880 --> 01:32:48.140
diverse faiths and the structure of the religion
01:32:48.140 --> 01:32:52.420
matters more than the specific doctrine. So like
01:32:52.420 --> 01:32:55.199
that environment in which you are raised or like,
01:32:55.279 --> 01:32:57.819
you know, like you mentioned, one church is different
01:32:57.819 --> 01:32:59.659
than another in the same religion. You know,
01:32:59.659 --> 01:33:02.359
it depends upon the pastor who is preaching the
01:33:02.359 --> 01:33:04.560
beliefs and the audience, which is in attendance
01:33:04.560 --> 01:33:07.579
and the geographic location that you're in. That's
01:33:07.579 --> 01:33:12.750
why religion is such a diverse. of perspectives,
01:33:12.930 --> 01:33:16.310
you know, why subcultures have popped up in religion.
01:33:17.130 --> 01:33:19.350
And there are also going to be non, you'd almost
01:33:19.350 --> 01:33:23.449
call them non -religious religions. Even something
01:33:23.449 --> 01:33:26.930
like, well, a get rich quick kind of scheme,
01:33:26.989 --> 01:33:29.189
a multi -level marketing thing. That's a very
01:33:29.189 --> 01:33:32.989
religious community, I think. They kind of have
01:33:32.989 --> 01:33:34.770
these beliefs. Gotta crank those numbers, Joe.
01:33:34.890 --> 01:33:37.789
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for one thing. But also, I
01:33:37.789 --> 01:33:42.069
think they say that Politics and religion are
01:33:42.069 --> 01:33:44.670
very much the same way in the brain. Well, oftentimes,
01:33:44.770 --> 01:33:48.729
so is nutrition, they've found. That nutrition
01:33:48.729 --> 01:33:51.050
is kind of treated oftentimes like a religion
01:33:51.050 --> 01:33:53.949
as well. Like, you know, if you're a really hardcore
01:33:53.949 --> 01:33:58.369
vegan or some of the paleo diets, you know, sometimes
01:33:58.369 --> 01:34:00.390
these behave like religion. So we got to kind
01:34:00.390 --> 01:34:03.369
of be careful that we can run into that kind
01:34:03.369 --> 01:34:05.670
of trauma in these organizations that we don't
01:34:05.670 --> 01:34:08.390
normally think of as religion. Because the human
01:34:08.390 --> 01:34:10.460
brain seems to... It's the kind of thing for
01:34:10.460 --> 01:34:13.100
it, you know? Yeah. No, it's, it's interesting
01:34:13.100 --> 01:34:14.939
that you bring up, you know, like politics and
01:34:14.939 --> 01:34:17.239
religion because yeah, no, you're thinking about
01:34:17.239 --> 01:34:20.140
like the, the broader good, right? Like how do
01:34:20.140 --> 01:34:22.579
I, how do we take care of the collective of people?
01:34:23.460 --> 01:34:26.199
One is, you know, in a church setting and, you
01:34:26.199 --> 01:34:28.079
know, you have your religious authorities versus
01:34:28.079 --> 01:34:31.640
like a democratic society in, you know, one,
01:34:31.800 --> 01:34:37.029
one person, one vote type of thing. Man, I could
01:34:37.029 --> 01:34:39.569
go on all kinds of tangents about that. It's
01:34:39.569 --> 01:34:41.649
something that gives you this, there's a greater
01:34:41.649 --> 01:34:44.090
good than myself. That's a characteristic of
01:34:44.090 --> 01:34:46.670
religion. And the other one is, what's the right
01:34:46.670 --> 01:34:48.569
thing to do? And that's, again, why nutrition
01:34:48.569 --> 01:34:52.569
can behave like there's a sin if you eat the
01:34:52.569 --> 01:34:54.869
wrong thing. Consequences. Even if it's just
01:34:54.869 --> 01:35:00.229
bad for you. And so we're looking for ways to
01:35:00.229 --> 01:35:03.270
measure the world and evaluate it. What's the
01:35:03.270 --> 01:35:04.590
right thing to do? What's the right decision
01:35:04.590 --> 01:35:07.329
to make? And what is the framework that you're
01:35:07.329 --> 01:35:11.930
using to determine that? Myth number three, if
01:35:11.930 --> 01:35:15.170
you leave your religion, the trauma goes away.
01:35:15.770 --> 01:35:19.109
Reality is that trauma requires active healing
01:35:19.109 --> 01:35:22.649
work, often lasting years after exit. I mean,
01:35:22.670 --> 01:35:26.149
this is a concrete example. We're having this
01:35:26.149 --> 01:35:30.010
conversation now, and Joe and I have left our
01:35:30.010 --> 01:35:32.720
respective... originating religions. And it's
01:35:32.720 --> 01:35:35.960
been years and you just, you, you have all of
01:35:35.960 --> 01:35:39.899
that room in space to think about your experiences.
01:35:40.079 --> 01:35:43.560
And you know, it requires a certain amount of
01:35:43.560 --> 01:35:46.600
unpacking because especially if your world, I
01:35:46.600 --> 01:35:48.619
find if your worldview has been shaped from a
01:35:48.619 --> 01:35:51.619
very young age, it's like a ball of yarn where
01:35:51.619 --> 01:35:55.399
it requires unwinding a little bit where again,
01:35:55.779 --> 01:35:58.199
not everything that you have been taught is wrong,
01:35:58.359 --> 01:36:01.930
but. you kind of have to pick and choose, you
01:36:01.930 --> 01:36:05.010
know, sift through the memories a little bit.
01:36:05.130 --> 01:36:08.550
And there's bits and pieces that'll leave bad
01:36:08.550 --> 01:36:12.369
tastes in your mouth. And, you know, knowing
01:36:12.369 --> 01:36:15.310
what you know now versus when you were a child
01:36:15.310 --> 01:36:19.470
or when you were very much a firm believer, you
01:36:19.470 --> 01:36:22.689
know. It's a relief to not be as judgmental.
01:36:22.689 --> 01:36:24.989
I'll tell you that. That's such a relief that
01:36:24.989 --> 01:36:27.270
people can, and it's a relief not to have to
01:36:27.270 --> 01:36:30.340
make sure everything, The facts fit with the
01:36:30.340 --> 01:36:32.319
religion. Like, well, that doesn't make sense
01:36:32.319 --> 01:36:34.979
if I believe in, you know, it could be evolution,
01:36:35.180 --> 01:36:37.159
you know, you don't need to, you don't need to
01:36:37.159 --> 01:36:39.600
twist the facts or twist the worldview. You're
01:36:39.600 --> 01:36:41.739
fine. You don't need to twist anything, you know,
01:36:41.739 --> 01:36:43.439
to make it fit. You're just like, no, that's
01:36:43.439 --> 01:36:44.859
what happens. And I don't know the answer to
01:36:44.859 --> 01:36:47.220
everything, you know? So it's quite a relief.
01:36:49.539 --> 01:36:52.000
Yeah. Yeah. Walking away doesn't immediately
01:36:52.000 --> 01:36:55.479
fix the problem. Another way I could be completely
01:36:55.479 --> 01:36:59.119
healed. But just a few nights ago, I come home
01:36:59.119 --> 01:37:01.800
and my daughter's crying. She's 14. And she's
01:37:01.800 --> 01:37:06.140
crying because one of her friends told her that
01:37:06.140 --> 01:37:09.199
the reason why she's not allowed to spend the
01:37:09.199 --> 01:37:13.619
night at our house is because we drink. And we
01:37:13.619 --> 01:37:17.100
actually, at that time, had no alcohol in the
01:37:17.100 --> 01:37:22.300
house. And if we do, it's like one Mike's lemonade
01:37:22.300 --> 01:37:25.140
or something. That's it. But her parents just
01:37:25.140 --> 01:37:27.520
see us as these these parents who people who've
01:37:27.520 --> 01:37:32.939
left the church. And so we drink. And so I calmed
01:37:32.939 --> 01:37:34.380
her down. I said, listen, they've, they were
01:37:34.380 --> 01:37:36.279
taught that they were taught to be afraid, you
01:37:36.279 --> 01:37:39.060
know, and, and she's just kind of doing, she's
01:37:39.060 --> 01:37:40.800
trying to be protective, you know, and we're
01:37:40.800 --> 01:37:43.300
actually much more protective of our daughter
01:37:43.300 --> 01:37:47.680
when it comes to darn technology, you know, we're
01:37:47.680 --> 01:37:49.880
much more strict than they are, but what they're
01:37:49.880 --> 01:37:51.300
worried about is that we might drink in front
01:37:51.300 --> 01:37:53.359
of them. And, you know, we don't have enough
01:37:53.359 --> 01:37:56.689
alcohol to look, you know, Again, we had none
01:37:56.689 --> 01:37:58.729
at the time. That's so interesting to hear that.
01:37:58.850 --> 01:38:01.149
Yeah, the, no, yeah, you can't spend the night
01:38:01.149 --> 01:38:03.329
over there anymore because, you know, we don't
01:38:03.329 --> 01:38:06.930
want that influence. Wow, what an interesting,
01:38:07.149 --> 01:38:10.529
yeah, no, that would, that's definitely. Even,
01:38:10.590 --> 01:38:13.630
yeah, the consequences echo, you know. And how
01:38:13.630 --> 01:38:15.970
would they have felt if we were never LDS? I
01:38:15.970 --> 01:38:17.670
don't know. They might, I don't know if they'd
01:38:17.670 --> 01:38:21.229
trust us less or more. Yeah, no, that's an interesting
01:38:21.229 --> 01:38:25.399
question. Myth number four of five. Religious
01:38:25.399 --> 01:38:29.420
trauma is just anger at God or rebellion. The
01:38:29.420 --> 01:38:32.239
reality is that RTS involves legitimate psychological
01:38:32.239 --> 01:38:35.300
trauma symptoms requiring professional treatment.
01:38:35.720 --> 01:38:38.819
And again, all of these links are going to be
01:38:38.819 --> 01:38:41.039
in the show notes. So the audience, you are definitely
01:38:41.039 --> 01:38:44.420
recommended to take a look for yourself. But
01:38:44.420 --> 01:38:46.760
I find that that's an interesting one. I think
01:38:46.760 --> 01:38:50.239
that's another thing that local Christian pastor
01:38:50.239 --> 01:38:53.130
or his sermon, what he said was, he goes, don't
01:38:53.130 --> 01:38:55.470
think that people are disbelieving means that
01:38:55.470 --> 01:38:57.909
they're angry with God. It's another thing he
01:38:57.909 --> 01:38:59.930
said, not to, not to believe that that's why,
01:39:00.090 --> 01:39:02.550
you know? Yeah. Yeah. No. And I agree with you.
01:39:02.590 --> 01:39:05.069
Yeah. It's definitely, you know, I wouldn't find
01:39:05.069 --> 01:39:08.310
myself angry at a God or anything like that,
01:39:08.329 --> 01:39:11.729
but I do, I do question, you know, what type
01:39:11.729 --> 01:39:15.930
of God facilitates maybe the world, like the
01:39:15.930 --> 01:39:18.090
world that you're talking about. Cause just,
01:39:18.170 --> 01:39:21.239
just like, all the good you say is brought about
01:39:21.239 --> 01:39:24.060
by God, then that would mean that there's also
01:39:24.060 --> 01:39:26.359
bad in the world. I mean, your view could be
01:39:26.359 --> 01:39:29.439
that all bad is Satan and all good is God. I
01:39:29.439 --> 01:39:31.840
always think about the poor little girl in East
01:39:31.840 --> 01:39:36.380
Asia who's born and is a prostitute by the time
01:39:36.380 --> 01:39:39.880
she's 10 years old. I think, where is the blessing?
01:39:39.960 --> 01:39:42.420
Who's praying for that girl? Every time somebody
01:39:42.420 --> 01:39:44.100
might say, well, God's blessing you, I'm like,
01:39:44.199 --> 01:39:48.039
yeah, great, I get this. I get some extra cash
01:39:48.039 --> 01:39:49.880
or something. And then this girl's born in that
01:39:49.880 --> 01:39:53.340
kind of environment. So it makes sense. Honestly,
01:39:53.479 --> 01:39:55.960
if I, if there is a God, well, he is kind of
01:39:55.960 --> 01:39:58.420
a jackass, you know, that makes sense. You know,
01:39:58.420 --> 01:40:00.399
how, how, I mean, I had Christopher Hitchens
01:40:00.399 --> 01:40:02.600
said, he said, well, if you were brought before
01:40:02.600 --> 01:40:05.100
God, what would you, what would you want to want
01:40:05.100 --> 01:40:07.680
to say to him? You know, and he just goes, how
01:40:07.680 --> 01:40:10.300
dare you? That's what he wants to say to God.
01:40:10.380 --> 01:40:14.220
How dare you? It's understandable. Come on. There's
01:40:14.220 --> 01:40:17.069
enough suffering. So, but, um, I don't, yeah,
01:40:17.210 --> 01:40:19.930
they're going to find an excuse for you to leave.
01:40:20.170 --> 01:40:22.750
That's just the nature of it. You know, you can't
01:40:22.750 --> 01:40:24.369
just leave cause you don't believe it. Yeah.
01:40:24.470 --> 01:40:26.510
Yeah. It's, and I think that that's an interesting
01:40:26.510 --> 01:40:29.289
thing to point out is, you know, those that remain,
01:40:29.529 --> 01:40:32.989
they, they have to contextualize for themselves
01:40:32.989 --> 01:40:36.369
and process, well, so -and -so is leaving. So
01:40:36.369 --> 01:40:39.970
it must be a them problem. It's not a problem
01:40:39.970 --> 01:40:42.430
with the religion because, you know, again, that
01:40:42.430 --> 01:40:44.289
you get that cognitive dissonance, the more that,
01:40:44.670 --> 01:40:47.770
I accept the reality of the situation and the
01:40:47.770 --> 01:40:51.529
facts at hand, the more that my world kind of
01:40:51.529 --> 01:40:54.270
falls beneath me and I have to pick up the pieces.
01:40:54.510 --> 01:40:58.010
So it is a very overwhelming process. That last
01:40:58.010 --> 01:41:00.569
myth that we have here is that recovery means
01:41:00.569 --> 01:41:03.350
becoming atheist or anti -religious. And I think
01:41:03.350 --> 01:41:05.189
that this is a prime example, right? Like our
01:41:05.189 --> 01:41:08.149
conversation right now, the reality, recovery
01:41:08.149 --> 01:41:12.409
goals vary. Some reconstruct faith healthily.
01:41:12.859 --> 01:41:15.680
Others find different spiritual practices. Some
01:41:15.680 --> 01:41:19.720
choose secular paths. So that might mean, you
01:41:19.720 --> 01:41:22.000
know, instead of going to church, maybe I'm practicing,
01:41:22.039 --> 01:41:25.060
you know, meditation and, you know, breathing
01:41:25.060 --> 01:41:30.159
and, you know, I find grounding there. Others,
01:41:30.180 --> 01:41:31.859
maybe you jump from one religion to another,
01:41:32.039 --> 01:41:34.560
you know, maybe you find your sense in your community.
01:41:36.460 --> 01:41:39.039
But you don't necessarily have to become anti
01:41:39.039 --> 01:41:41.600
-religious, which, you know, I feel like I embody
01:41:41.600 --> 01:41:44.300
that where it's like, I'm not, I am not opposed
01:41:44.300 --> 01:41:47.939
to anybody following their own religion. But
01:41:47.939 --> 01:41:49.899
I think it is important to be able to at least
01:41:49.899 --> 01:41:53.359
have dialogue about how religion shapes us as
01:41:53.359 --> 01:41:56.420
people. Because you and I have both had our own
01:41:56.420 --> 01:41:59.760
unique experiences. And, you know, I think it's
01:41:59.760 --> 01:42:03.720
important that given... The option, right, that
01:42:03.720 --> 01:42:07.859
people know that leaving a religion is an option
01:42:07.859 --> 01:42:11.220
and it doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't
01:42:11.220 --> 01:42:13.140
mean that everything you've ever been taught
01:42:13.140 --> 01:42:17.439
is bullshit. It's healthy to be able to question
01:42:17.439 --> 01:42:21.140
things and look at things critically. So I'll
01:42:21.140 --> 01:42:24.260
point that out before we get to this. I have
01:42:24.260 --> 01:42:26.779
to say C .S. Lewis, you know, are you familiar
01:42:26.779 --> 01:42:29.560
with C .S. Lewis? I've heard of C .S. Lewis.
01:42:29.560 --> 01:42:31.319
He wrote The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
01:42:31.880 --> 01:42:35.760
He was an atheist until Tolkien converted him
01:42:35.760 --> 01:42:37.520
and helped convert him to Christianity. And he
01:42:37.520 --> 01:42:39.939
became this Christian philosopher. He wrote Romare
01:42:39.939 --> 01:42:42.380
Christianity, which is a pretty good Christian
01:42:42.380 --> 01:42:45.239
apologetics book. But he said that somebody who's
01:42:45.239 --> 01:42:48.920
questioning, I'll paraphrase it. He said somebody
01:42:48.920 --> 01:42:51.539
who's questioning God's existence for the first
01:42:51.539 --> 01:42:54.380
time in their life is probably closer to God
01:42:54.380 --> 01:42:56.100
in that moment than somebody who'd never questioned
01:42:56.100 --> 01:42:59.279
it. Because they're using their full intellect.
01:43:00.850 --> 01:43:04.750
And if he comes to this conclusion or that conclusion,
01:43:05.109 --> 01:43:07.789
at least he's getting himself there. So I always
01:43:07.789 --> 01:43:09.590
love that quote from C .S. Lewis. He's one of
01:43:09.590 --> 01:43:11.489
my favorites. As far as Christians go, oh my
01:43:11.489 --> 01:43:13.090
gosh, he's great. I've never heard that. That
01:43:13.090 --> 01:43:17.850
is a very interesting quote. We're getting to
01:43:17.850 --> 01:43:20.449
the very end now. And I want to touch on some
01:43:20.449 --> 01:43:22.789
evidence -based recovery approaches before we
01:43:22.789 --> 01:43:25.010
kind of summarize the conversation that we've
01:43:25.010 --> 01:43:28.189
kind of been guided through here and wrapping
01:43:28.189 --> 01:43:31.899
this thing up. We've got some primary therapeutic
01:43:31.899 --> 01:43:34.100
modalities that have been pointed out. That's
01:43:34.100 --> 01:43:39.000
a mouthful of words. So different therapy, right?
01:43:39.100 --> 01:43:41.479
You've got trauma -focused cognitive behavioral
01:43:41.479 --> 01:43:44.439
therapy that you can utilize. That's the most
01:43:44.439 --> 01:43:47.640
widely recommended first line of treatment as
01:43:47.640 --> 01:43:50.579
cognitive behavioral therapy with a professional.
01:43:51.619 --> 01:43:55.300
You have EMDR, particularly effective for processing
01:43:55.300 --> 01:43:57.460
traumatic religious memories. Remind me, I think,
01:43:57.460 --> 01:44:02.050
is EMDR, that's electromagnetic? No, it's the
01:44:02.050 --> 01:44:05.329
one where they do the eye movement. Oh, okay.
01:44:05.670 --> 01:44:09.550
Which I've had. Interesting. And I will say it
01:44:09.550 --> 01:44:12.449
does work. It took a while to kind of really
01:44:12.449 --> 01:44:15.149
realize how it worked, but it makes a lot of
01:44:15.149 --> 01:44:18.409
sense. It tends to make traumatic memories that
01:44:18.409 --> 01:44:21.789
you have not as traumatizing. Can you explain
01:44:21.789 --> 01:44:26.229
how it works? You kind of find a core memory,
01:44:26.350 --> 01:44:31.569
so to speak. to phrase in and out, right? Inside
01:44:31.569 --> 01:44:37.229
out. You find a kind of a core belief or a core
01:44:37.229 --> 01:44:40.409
memory that maybe is scarring and that you think
01:44:40.409 --> 01:44:42.689
about and you might, you might always be, what
01:44:42.689 --> 01:44:46.109
do you call it? Ruminating over, you know, and
01:44:46.109 --> 01:44:48.829
what they do is this strange, simple technique
01:44:48.829 --> 01:44:51.890
is, is you have, there's a couple of ways you
01:44:51.890 --> 01:44:55.109
can have these two buzzers in your, in your,
01:44:55.109 --> 01:44:58.350
between your fingers of both hands. that it buzzes
01:44:58.350 --> 01:45:02.189
left, right, left, right. And what it does is
01:45:02.189 --> 01:45:06.069
it kind of helps. Why it works, they probably
01:45:06.069 --> 01:45:08.630
don't know, but they do know that it helps people
01:45:08.630 --> 01:45:11.569
somehow. And then as you're thinking about that
01:45:11.569 --> 01:45:15.510
memory, it somehow just distracts you and kind
01:45:15.510 --> 01:45:18.310
of trains your brain to not be so bothered by
01:45:18.310 --> 01:45:20.569
it. And another thing they do is they'll move
01:45:20.569 --> 01:45:23.130
a light back and forth. So your eyes have to
01:45:23.130 --> 01:45:25.069
follow this light back and forth. While you're
01:45:25.069 --> 01:45:27.789
thinking about it? Yeah, yeah. And I've done
01:45:27.789 --> 01:45:31.270
it and it's worked. But I needed a lot more help
01:45:31.270 --> 01:45:33.489
in a lot of other areas rather than just bad
01:45:33.489 --> 01:45:35.670
memories. But it's very helpful in making those
01:45:35.670 --> 01:45:38.270
not sting as much. Some specific memories, yeah.
01:45:38.609 --> 01:45:41.109
I've never heard of that. Yeah. Wow. And that's
01:45:41.109 --> 01:45:44.310
the MDR. There's somatic therapy. So it addresses
01:45:44.310 --> 01:45:47.390
trauma stored in the body. You have group therapy,
01:45:47.569 --> 01:45:49.470
which I could see that being very helpful. So
01:45:49.470 --> 01:45:52.010
it's essential for community rebuilding. I mean,
01:45:52.029 --> 01:45:53.949
what better place to build a community than people
01:45:53.949 --> 01:45:55.689
that would understand where you're coming from?
01:45:56.699 --> 01:45:59.600
Group therapy would be great. Specialized approaches.
01:46:00.020 --> 01:46:02.939
There is betrayal trauma therapy. I haven't heard
01:46:02.939 --> 01:46:05.960
of that. Some grief work and attachment -based
01:46:05.960 --> 01:46:09.100
therapy. There are actually a couple of different
01:46:09.100 --> 01:46:11.520
specialized recovery organizations that exist,
01:46:11.619 --> 01:46:13.680
if you've never heard of them. I mentioned them
01:46:13.680 --> 01:46:15.619
at the beginning. There's the Religious Trauma
01:46:15.619 --> 01:46:17.880
Institute. So that has got clinical training
01:46:17.880 --> 01:46:21.939
and consultation. There is the Reclamation Collective,
01:46:22.060 --> 01:46:25.159
which is... virtual support groups worldwide.
01:46:25.600 --> 01:46:28.600
We've got Recovering from Religion, which is
01:46:28.600 --> 01:46:31.140
a helpline for local support groups. And then
01:46:31.140 --> 01:46:33.840
there is Secular Therapy Project, which connects
01:46:33.840 --> 01:46:38.380
individuals with non -religious therapists. And
01:46:38.380 --> 01:46:40.079
then we've got our self -care strategies, right?
01:46:40.180 --> 01:46:42.619
So we need to take care of ourselves. So let's
01:46:42.619 --> 01:46:45.399
talk very briefly about self -care strategies.
01:46:45.560 --> 01:46:47.319
There's mindfulness and grounding, which I think
01:46:47.319 --> 01:46:49.220
we've already kind of mentioned. That's secular
01:46:49.220 --> 01:46:51.920
practices for... anxiety management. So going
01:46:51.920 --> 01:46:54.920
back to your breathing, taking deep breaths and
01:46:54.920 --> 01:46:58.800
being more in the moment, focusing on you is
01:46:58.800 --> 01:47:01.579
a good coping strategy in general. There's that
01:47:01.579 --> 01:47:05.560
physical self -care, exercise, nutrition, sleep
01:47:05.560 --> 01:47:08.340
for your nervous system healing. I think people
01:47:08.340 --> 01:47:14.000
underestimate the effect of physical exercise.
01:47:14.380 --> 01:47:16.479
And I've even told people this where it's like,
01:47:16.479 --> 01:47:18.369
if you don't... If you don't do some form of
01:47:18.369 --> 01:47:19.909
resistance training, your body's going to have
01:47:19.909 --> 01:47:22.890
difficulty holding itself up. And if you're constantly
01:47:22.890 --> 01:47:25.289
aching all the time, it's going to affect your
01:47:25.289 --> 01:47:27.090
sleep. It's going to affect the way that your
01:47:27.090 --> 01:47:30.729
cognitive processing power, the bandwidth that
01:47:30.729 --> 01:47:33.510
you have. One of the simplest things that you
01:47:33.510 --> 01:47:36.850
can do is form a physical exercise, not just
01:47:36.850 --> 01:47:39.189
cardio, but some form of resistance training
01:47:39.189 --> 01:47:42.949
over time will definitely impact your mental
01:47:42.949 --> 01:47:46.149
health. There's the journaling, right? So processing
01:47:46.149 --> 01:47:48.670
your emotions and tracking healing progress.
01:47:49.029 --> 01:47:52.989
It can be difficult, especially with those that
01:47:52.989 --> 01:47:56.710
have ADHD. I'll speak for myself there. Task
01:47:56.710 --> 01:47:59.149
avoidance is very real. And sometimes sitting
01:47:59.149 --> 01:48:02.850
down and writing your thoughts could be slower
01:48:02.850 --> 01:48:05.710
or you don't really want to do it. So maybe speaking
01:48:05.710 --> 01:48:07.670
in front of a microphone or like we're doing
01:48:07.670 --> 01:48:11.250
right now, I've found as well doing what I would
01:48:11.250 --> 01:48:14.239
call a stream of consciousness. is also beneficial.
01:48:14.479 --> 01:48:17.319
So setting your phone down and recording a vocal
01:48:17.319 --> 01:48:20.020
note for five or 10 minutes, just being able
01:48:20.020 --> 01:48:22.340
to speak about how you're feeling, just getting
01:48:22.340 --> 01:48:25.500
that out in some way, shape or form is very healing.
01:48:25.600 --> 01:48:27.739
Even if you don't listen to it, you know, just
01:48:27.739 --> 01:48:31.739
not being so trapped in your brain is very good
01:48:31.739 --> 01:48:36.239
software. I called my mom the other day and things
01:48:36.239 --> 01:48:38.340
have definitely cooled a bit because we left
01:48:38.340 --> 01:48:42.340
the church, but also for other reasons. But I
01:48:42.340 --> 01:48:45.060
just called her up the other day and I just walked
01:48:45.060 --> 01:48:49.500
around my house and talked to her for 20, 30
01:48:49.500 --> 01:48:51.479
minutes. I used to call her all the time. And
01:48:51.479 --> 01:48:54.899
I found that it just, I felt better. It didn't
01:48:54.899 --> 01:48:56.439
matter what I talked to her about, but it was
01:48:56.439 --> 01:48:59.520
nice to have, makes total sense that talking
01:48:59.520 --> 01:49:04.359
to my mother and just talking to her about things
01:49:04.359 --> 01:49:06.100
that are going on, things that I might be frustrated
01:49:06.100 --> 01:49:10.329
at, you know, no church stuff, you know. it's
01:49:10.329 --> 01:49:12.029
amazing that that was very helpful just, just
01:49:12.029 --> 01:49:13.649
to talking to her and just, you know, a little
01:49:13.649 --> 01:49:15.289
bit, a little bit of venting, you know? Yeah.
01:49:15.529 --> 01:49:18.970
So it's, it's almost kind of similar to, um,
01:49:19.109 --> 01:49:21.930
body doubling. I think you and I have had personal
01:49:21.930 --> 01:49:24.590
conversation about like somebody that's physically
01:49:24.590 --> 01:49:26.770
there, you know, for some reason, like you could
01:49:26.770 --> 01:49:28.670
feel like you're more productive or less likely
01:49:28.670 --> 01:49:30.649
to get distracted, even if you're not working
01:49:30.649 --> 01:49:32.189
on the same thing. We're meant to work with other
01:49:32.189 --> 01:49:35.189
people. It's just how we are. Yeah. The last
01:49:35.189 --> 01:49:37.989
two, uh, things for the self -care strategies.
01:49:38.539 --> 01:49:41.600
would be boundary setting uh which you know learning
01:49:41.600 --> 01:49:43.939
to protect your time and energy right i think
01:49:43.939 --> 01:49:46.880
that's incredibly important especially if there
01:49:46.880 --> 01:49:49.359
are those that you still wish to maintain a relationship
01:49:49.359 --> 01:49:52.439
with that follow religion uh establishing proper
01:49:52.439 --> 01:49:56.579
boundaries is important for both sides so you
01:49:56.579 --> 01:49:58.779
obviously want to respect their boundaries as
01:49:58.779 --> 01:50:00.899
a religious person but they should also try to
01:50:00.899 --> 01:50:03.640
respect your communicated boundaries if there
01:50:03.640 --> 01:50:06.539
are different triggers that exist so opening
01:50:06.539 --> 01:50:08.340
up about your thoughts and your feelings about
01:50:08.340 --> 01:50:10.180
religion with that person and just saying like,
01:50:10.220 --> 01:50:14.600
hey, I am dealing with certain triggers or when
01:50:14.600 --> 01:50:17.479
we talk about, if you mentioned that you've prayed
01:50:17.479 --> 01:50:19.060
for me and stuff, maybe that might be a little
01:50:19.060 --> 01:50:20.880
bit of triggering. So if in the future, could
01:50:20.880 --> 01:50:23.859
you just ask me if there's anything that you
01:50:23.859 --> 01:50:26.680
could do for me that would work better for me,
01:50:26.720 --> 01:50:28.800
right? Like that's communicating to that other
01:50:28.800 --> 01:50:30.659
person that you can still serve a place in my
01:50:30.659 --> 01:50:33.699
life, but like, let's not. form that relationship
01:50:33.699 --> 01:50:37.579
on the basis of religion, right? And then there's
01:50:37.579 --> 01:50:39.439
their community building, connecting with other
01:50:39.439 --> 01:50:42.579
survivors and supporting communities. I think
01:50:42.579 --> 01:50:45.159
it's interesting that they say survivors, but
01:50:45.159 --> 01:50:49.520
like connecting with those that have shared experiences
01:50:49.520 --> 01:50:53.479
is very helpful. And one of the best ways to
01:50:53.479 --> 01:50:55.199
do that is to just get out and about in the world.
01:50:55.239 --> 01:50:58.960
The more that I am out and interact with people
01:50:58.960 --> 01:51:02.800
and just learn about their background, you'd
01:51:02.800 --> 01:51:05.859
be surprised how many people have been a part
01:51:05.859 --> 01:51:08.420
of a religion and walked away and have felt the
01:51:08.420 --> 01:51:10.560
same feelings that you have felt or maybe similar
01:51:10.560 --> 01:51:13.920
feelings along a different vein. But there are
01:51:13.920 --> 01:51:16.760
absolutely other people in the world that deal
01:51:16.760 --> 01:51:19.399
with the same pressures that you might be dealing
01:51:19.399 --> 01:51:25.579
with when it comes to leaving a religion. building
01:51:25.579 --> 01:51:28.520
a community where you're not isolated is an important
01:51:28.520 --> 01:51:30.960
part of that process. There is quite an ex -Mormon
01:51:30.960 --> 01:51:33.420
community, again, which I knew about before I
01:51:33.420 --> 01:51:38.119
myself had left. But I will point out the negative
01:51:38.119 --> 01:51:47.020
side to it. For one thing, there is somebody's
01:51:47.020 --> 01:51:49.380
phrase, bitches and liars in the church and out
01:51:49.380 --> 01:51:53.130
of the church. Don't think that, you know, you're
01:51:53.130 --> 01:51:54.850
going to run into the same kind of things that
01:51:54.850 --> 01:51:57.470
people are backstabby or even gossiping behind
01:51:57.470 --> 01:52:00.170
your back and stuff. Or suddenly, you know, there's
01:52:00.170 --> 01:52:05.810
a new normal now that people are, you know, enforcing
01:52:05.810 --> 01:52:08.869
a natural social, you know, norms. Now the ex
01:52:08.869 --> 01:52:11.550
-Mormons say you have to be this, you know, instead
01:52:11.550 --> 01:52:15.789
of the Mormon way. It's now the ex -Mormon way,
01:52:15.890 --> 01:52:20.020
you know. They say in, there's this phrase that
01:52:20.020 --> 01:52:21.840
somebody said in the ex -Mormon community, there's
01:52:21.840 --> 01:52:24.800
Mormons, and then there's ex -Mormons, and then
01:52:24.800 --> 01:52:27.340
there's, I don't really care. And meaning you've
01:52:27.340 --> 01:52:29.399
kind of, you moved on. You're like, you're neither,
01:52:29.539 --> 01:52:36.020
because now you're just me, you know. And I think
01:52:36.020 --> 01:52:38.279
there's another way to phrase that. But one of
01:52:38.279 --> 01:52:41.640
the negative way, the negative side of this is
01:52:41.640 --> 01:52:43.460
sometimes you can get yourself into a complaint
01:52:43.460 --> 01:52:46.560
frenzy. And somebody says, oh, my bishop did
01:52:46.560 --> 01:52:49.170
this. Ah, your bishop's an idiot. It's like,
01:52:49.210 --> 01:52:51.229
dude, it's the religion you should be complaining.
01:52:51.270 --> 01:52:52.649
The bishop was doing what he thought was right
01:52:52.649 --> 01:52:54.729
and what the religion taught him. But then it
01:52:54.729 --> 01:52:56.390
turns into this complaining about individual
01:52:56.390 --> 01:52:59.090
people that you don't even know that somebody's,
01:52:59.090 --> 01:53:01.069
you know, venting about. And I understand there's
01:53:01.069 --> 01:53:04.090
a place for it. You know, you kind of want to
01:53:04.090 --> 01:53:06.109
sometimes spill your beans and say, God, I'm
01:53:06.109 --> 01:53:07.829
so frustrated by this. And very understandable.
01:53:07.970 --> 01:53:09.930
You're there and you get empathy. But sometimes
01:53:09.930 --> 01:53:13.890
it can turn into too much of a, everybody's bitching.
01:53:14.270 --> 01:53:16.550
And, you know, just bitching all day long. And
01:53:16.550 --> 01:53:19.550
that's, You stay there too long and it's counterproductive.
01:53:20.189 --> 01:53:23.069
Yeah, at a certain point it takes more action
01:53:23.069 --> 01:53:27.229
and less bitching. You got to move on. Pretty
01:53:27.229 --> 01:53:29.689
soon you're getting too obsessed with it. And
01:53:29.689 --> 01:53:33.050
you can end up complaining about individuals
01:53:33.050 --> 01:53:35.310
who are still in that system who are just like
01:53:35.310 --> 01:53:38.630
you. So be careful about judging them so harshly
01:53:38.630 --> 01:53:43.020
because you were them, you know? Yeah. Well,
01:53:43.039 --> 01:53:45.180
we've been talking for nearly two hours. I've
01:53:45.180 --> 01:53:48.300
got this final section here to kind of help us
01:53:48.300 --> 01:53:50.640
conclude. So we're going to tie together some
01:53:50.640 --> 01:53:53.960
of the key takeaways for our listeners. We'll
01:53:53.960 --> 01:53:56.380
again touch on those resources for some immediate
01:53:56.380 --> 01:53:59.399
support. And then I'll send us off with the final
01:53:59.399 --> 01:54:02.399
message here. So our key takeaways for all of
01:54:02.399 --> 01:54:04.840
our listeners here today. Number one is that
01:54:04.840 --> 01:54:07.619
religious trauma is real and it is treatable.
01:54:07.680 --> 01:54:12.060
It's not spiritual weakness or rebellion. That
01:54:12.060 --> 01:54:14.479
recovery is possible. So with appropriate support
01:54:14.479 --> 01:54:17.520
treatment, you are able to heal from walking
01:54:17.520 --> 01:54:19.680
away from a religion if you're experiencing religious
01:54:19.680 --> 01:54:23.560
trauma syndrome. Number three, community matters.
01:54:24.140 --> 01:54:27.180
Connection with others who understand is crucial.
01:54:27.399 --> 01:54:29.779
And I mean, part of our dialogue today is that
01:54:29.779 --> 01:54:31.560
for myself, you know, speaking with somebody
01:54:31.560 --> 01:54:34.220
else that has been involved in walking away from
01:54:34.220 --> 01:54:38.539
religion, you help just understand yourself a
01:54:38.539 --> 01:54:41.359
little bit deeper. and get through another layer
01:54:41.359 --> 01:54:44.380
of that onion. Number four, that professional
01:54:44.380 --> 01:54:47.460
help is available. I think that this is incredibly
01:54:47.460 --> 01:54:50.319
important to touch on, that trauma -informed
01:54:50.319 --> 01:54:53.479
therapists specialize in religious trauma. You
01:54:53.479 --> 01:54:56.460
can find therapists that are not religious, but
01:54:56.460 --> 01:54:59.479
specialize in religious trauma syndrome, even
01:54:59.479 --> 01:55:02.939
though it is not a designated DSM -5 diagnosis,
01:55:03.000 --> 01:55:08.399
but know when to bring in external help. We were
01:55:08.399 --> 01:55:10.720
talking about to a certain degree, quote, bitching
01:55:10.720 --> 01:55:13.119
is only going to get you so far. I think that
01:55:13.119 --> 01:55:16.659
that is where you bring in external counseling.
01:55:16.840 --> 01:55:20.939
Somebody that is a non -biased third party that
01:55:20.939 --> 01:55:23.300
can listen to your experiences over an extended
01:55:23.300 --> 01:55:26.279
period of time and be that voice of reason to
01:55:26.279 --> 01:55:28.699
just point out your patterns and your thoughts
01:55:28.699 --> 01:55:34.520
and help you process over time. And number five,
01:55:34.539 --> 01:55:36.960
that recovery is individual, right? So there
01:55:36.960 --> 01:55:40.659
is no right way to heal or a prescribed outcome.
01:55:40.920 --> 01:55:43.840
So you're not going to be following like, listeners,
01:55:44.100 --> 01:55:46.420
if you stick to this dedicated path, you too
01:55:46.420 --> 01:55:50.520
can leave and abandon your religion. We understand
01:55:50.520 --> 01:55:54.119
that it's very, very much an individual process
01:55:54.119 --> 01:55:56.460
and you all have your own context. You could
01:55:56.460 --> 01:55:59.920
be in a very, very different geographic part
01:55:59.920 --> 01:56:02.180
of the world where it's like, That community
01:56:02.180 --> 01:56:04.420
is your town. It's your everything. Maybe you're
01:56:04.420 --> 01:56:07.500
financially tied to it. Or maybe, you know, this
01:56:07.500 --> 01:56:11.260
podcast has given you the tools to have conversations
01:56:11.260 --> 01:56:14.199
with others that are in your shared circle and
01:56:14.199 --> 01:56:17.739
thinking about it, right? I want to touch on
01:56:17.739 --> 01:56:21.000
our resources that we found for some immediate
01:56:21.000 --> 01:56:24.140
support. So number one for our audience is the
01:56:24.140 --> 01:56:26.880
crisis resource of the National Suicide Prevention
01:56:26.880 --> 01:56:31.300
Line, right? It's 988. is that National Suicide
01:56:31.300 --> 01:56:34.340
Prevention Lifeline. We have the Crisis Text
01:56:34.340 --> 01:56:37.039
Line, so you can text HOME, that's H -O -M -E,
01:56:37.199 --> 01:56:41.420
to 741741. If you are in need of some help, you
01:56:41.420 --> 01:56:43.680
can text them out. And then a special resource
01:56:43.680 --> 01:56:47.260
here for us is the LGBTQ National Hotline. That's
01:56:47.260 --> 01:56:52.180
1 -888 -843... Let's try that again. 1 -888 -843
01:56:52.180 --> 01:56:57.569
-4564. We've got some specialized organizations
01:56:57.569 --> 01:56:59.510
that we've talked about. That's the Religious
01:56:59.510 --> 01:57:01.510
Trauma Institute. You can reach them at religious
01:57:01.510 --> 01:57:04.909
trauma institute .com. There is the recovering
01:57:04.909 --> 01:57:07.789
from religion. You can access them at recovering
01:57:07.789 --> 01:57:10.649
from religion .org and the reclamation collective.
01:57:10.829 --> 01:57:13.310
You can reach them at reclamation collective
01:57:13.310 --> 01:57:17.869
.org. And as far as finding professional help,
01:57:17.930 --> 01:57:22.050
right? There is the secular therapy project therapist
01:57:22.050 --> 01:57:24.520
directory that you can look up. the Religious
01:57:24.520 --> 01:57:27.199
Trauma Informed Clinician Directory that you
01:57:27.199 --> 01:57:30.460
can look up, and the American Psychological Association
01:57:30.460 --> 01:57:33.939
Therapist Locator. So those are all resources
01:57:33.939 --> 01:57:36.699
that you can utilize if you are trying to locate
01:57:36.699 --> 01:57:39.619
a counselor that might be able to help you overcome
01:57:39.619 --> 01:57:42.859
your religious trauma syndrome. So our final
01:57:42.859 --> 01:57:44.680
message that I kind of want to leave the audience
01:57:44.680 --> 01:57:47.039
with here after about two hours of conversation
01:57:47.039 --> 01:57:50.500
is this. To those listening who see themselves
01:57:50.500 --> 01:57:53.760
in these stories, you are not broken. you are
01:57:53.760 --> 01:57:56.739
not alone. Your experience is valid, your pain
01:57:56.739 --> 01:58:00.180
is real, and your healing is possible. The journey
01:58:00.180 --> 01:58:02.300
from religious trauma to recovery is not easy,
01:58:02.500 --> 01:58:04.979
but it is one that thousands have walked before
01:58:04.979 --> 01:58:08.479
you and thousands more will walk alongside you.
01:58:08.819 --> 01:58:11.340
So it's important that I let our audience know
01:58:11.340 --> 01:58:14.399
you are not alone in your journey. So I want
01:58:14.399 --> 01:58:17.520
to thank my guest, Joe, for being brave enough
01:58:17.520 --> 01:58:20.300
to speak about his experience leaving the LDS
01:58:20.300 --> 01:58:24.909
church. and particularly for sharing in such
01:58:24.909 --> 01:58:26.949
a sensitive subject. This is one of the first
01:58:26.949 --> 01:58:29.310
episodes, I think, that kind of touches a little
01:58:29.310 --> 01:58:34.630
bit more deeply on some sensitive topics for
01:58:34.630 --> 01:58:38.229
the world. So I hope that this conversation was
01:58:38.229 --> 01:58:40.569
engaging for you, audience, that maybe you learned
01:58:40.569 --> 01:58:42.409
something new or maybe you think in a different
01:58:42.409 --> 01:58:46.029
way, whether you are religious or not. I think,
01:58:46.029 --> 01:58:48.659
again, what I've tried to... touch on is that
01:58:48.659 --> 01:58:52.199
we all have our own individualized lived experiences
01:58:52.199 --> 01:58:56.560
that shape the world and our worldview of how
01:58:56.560 --> 01:58:59.760
we view things. So everything we've spoken about
01:58:59.760 --> 01:59:02.960
today is just in an effort to inform and to seek
01:59:02.960 --> 01:59:06.039
to understand, not seeking to judge. So any of
01:59:06.039 --> 01:59:08.380
my followers here that are religious and follow
01:59:08.380 --> 01:59:10.819
a religion, thank you so much for listening in
01:59:10.819 --> 01:59:13.500
and hope today kind of gave you a different perspective
01:59:13.500 --> 01:59:17.779
on those that are on the other side of the coin
01:59:17.779 --> 01:59:20.539
that have chosen to walk away from faith. All
01:59:20.539 --> 01:59:23.720
right. Thank you, Steven. Appreciate it. Anything
01:59:23.720 --> 01:59:26.479
that you would like to say for the audience to
01:59:26.479 --> 01:59:31.600
remember to take away? Gratitude. It's good to
01:59:31.600 --> 01:59:35.060
be grateful for the good things in life, even
01:59:35.060 --> 01:59:36.920
though you may be going through a tough time.
01:59:36.979 --> 01:59:38.720
I'm going through a tough time, but again, gratitude,
01:59:38.739 --> 01:59:41.739
I think, is a really healthy way to live. Yeah,
01:59:41.779 --> 01:59:44.890
absolutely. Well, hopefully we will be hearing
01:59:44.890 --> 01:59:46.810
more from Joe in the future. I think that we're
01:59:46.810 --> 01:59:49.430
going to be discussing some possible projects
01:59:49.430 --> 01:59:52.250
that we might be able to work together on. But
01:59:52.250 --> 01:59:54.710
there's plenty more conversations to be had out
01:59:54.710 --> 01:59:57.350
there in the world on plenty more topics. So
01:59:57.350 --> 01:59:59.250
if you have any topics that you would like to
01:59:59.250 --> 02:00:02.250
know about, research further or hear about, let
02:00:02.250 --> 02:00:04.350
me know in the comments below. If this jived
02:00:04.350 --> 02:00:06.550
with you, let me know what I did good. Let me
02:00:06.550 --> 02:00:08.189
know what you hated. Like it if you like it,
02:00:08.229 --> 02:00:10.350
dislike it if you don't. Thank you everybody
02:00:10.350 --> 02:00:13.500
for joining me. Once again, I am... Just Some
02:00:13.500 --> 02:00:15.560
Dude on the internet. And this has been another
02:00:15.560 --> 02:00:18.560
episode of Just Some Podcast. Thank you very
02:00:18.560 --> 02:00:18.800
much.