speaker-0: I just I think we should have started that podcast just like that is you just messing around with your window settings trying to get audio back. ⁓ What happened? Now I'm paranoid.
speaker-1: No. No, that was me doing my audio settings. It worked perfectly.
speaker-2: Yeah, great work Jason. I see that you've gone and gotten the Team Liquid chair out of the basement. You're actually like proud of it again, Jason, or
speaker-1: ⁓ it's it's operating up here. It's operating up here at the moment. ⁓ you've seen this office. It's it's I've put it together. My wife came up here and was like this place is a mess, it sucks and she she put a little bit of a womanly touch into how it's
speaker-2: Notice the magic cards aren't in their usual position.
speaker-1: Yep, they've been they've been cleaned up. I've got a new shelving unit in the corner. I've got a new a new ottoman in front of the window. So it's all very nice in here. It's all it's all very ⁓ mostly as a dog bed these days, to be honest with you. Yeah.
speaker-0: I mean the liquid chair is kind of in the corner though, Dinko. It's like fully back yet. Exactly.
speaker-2: It's an honorable role. I know exactly. He might even prioritize sitting in it someday. ⁓
speaker-1: You know what's even better is the liquid chair isn't even gonna be there when this creates corrupt and I'm in I'm in a webcam box, so no one's gonna know what you're talking about.
speaker-0: No, no, no, ⁓ Chris, put it in there. Put it in there. Take my walking pad out, put his liquid chair in. Yeah. We'll get we'll get rolling with the ⁓ the NQ podcast, sponsored by CS Money. Thank you, thank you. There we go. Now that Moses can finally work some audio, Jesus Christ, man.
speaker-1: What the shit?
speaker-0: ⁓ you have all of the problems with audio, right? 'Cause you also just recorded that one episode, right? Talking counter where you just didn't have a microphone and that was
speaker-1: That was like two months ago guys where
speaker-0: I know but I'm just I'm just sensing a theme, Jason.
speaker-2: Jason, if you run a podcast and you and you record an entire episode without realizing the microphone isn't plugged in for I think it kinda deserves to to live on for at least two months.
speaker-0: At least.
speaker-1: Okay, so this is the last one then. So this is the last one? No. Two months. This is two months.
speaker-0: I just say I think longer personally. I think Dinko, you really let him off the hook with that one. I won't be on
speaker-1: By the way, I don't I don't run the podcast, it's a co operated experience. You know what I mean? There's like a triumvirate at the helm of the
speaker-2: So what you're saying is you would say that the workload is shared equally among three people, Jason?
speaker-1: I wish it was, yes, I w yeah I wish ⁓ it was. Yes I
speaker-0: In an ideal world in Jason's ⁓ utopia is is that's how it works. That's just
speaker-1: Hey, to be fair when Flom asked me to do this podcast I was like, I don't have to fucking edit it, do I? And he was like, No and I was like, All right, great, yeah, let's roll.
speaker-2: Just have to pull your mic.
speaker-0: Easiest way to get him in. Do I have to do anything? Nah, just show up and tell you. Okay. But speaking of perfection, this is it. This is my segue. Liquid didn't drop a single map at Blast. And that's where we'll start. That's where we start. We are so back. We're so back, Jason. I figure glass half full first, then we'll get then we'll get Doomer. No? I feel like we got enough p pessimism
speaker-1: No, I can get Doomer right now if you're asking it a little bit.
speaker-2: And I set up the strategy. We're gonna we're gonna really build it up. We're gonna build it up, we're gonna be positive, we're gonna celebrate it, Jason, while we can. And then and then we'll go back to reality.
speaker-1: Yeah, you guys you guys build it up, you guys hype it up.
speaker-2: Okay.
speaker-0: ⁓ shit. Well ⁓ I didn't actually get this.
speaker-2: was awaiting the Team Liquid move ahead of this roster season, change season, right? We wanted JT to come to the team. We're wondering, you know, is he going to to kind of ruin his chance to get a team liquid by trying to bring TC over there? I think we were debating that a lot ⁓ over in the last time we were had this podcast. So I was really happy to see the JT move go through, Shue out. ⁓ but for me it's the the fact that Jorko was performing super well. It's the new opera coming in as well for Team Liquid. And JT activating that all complexity allege ⁓ the way he's performing in in this stage of the competition was fantastic. Now we get to see if he can do it on land, but I mean taking down some big names along the way it is gotta feel good and the fact that it ⁓ it was Vitality Outfurst, that's that's just the best feeling.
speaker-0: No, yeah, see, I liked how he did it. I like that part. Cause yeah, 'cause me, I kinda have to shit on someone else like build up Liquid right now, which is like, holy shit, it really is just that much better when you have an actual opera on the team and an actual IGL. That's right. Shui, I'm sorry. Your time on Liquid doesn't count, but also if he keeps this shit up, I'll be honest. Nurse is definitely keeping up. But no, okay, you know
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: When a leash looks this good,
speaker-0: All jokes aside, I think the the reason why the liquid stuff was so fun is like it was kind of everything you hoped it could be ⁓ immediately, like lightning and bottle type stuff. Like I don't know if I really I'm not gonna sit here and tell you I predict liquid to be like a top five, top ten team now or something. I'm not as much as I would love to build them up right now, but it was as somebody that wants liquid to not be terrible and feels like I'm always yelling at them when we do these, It was nice to see them just basically do what we thought they could do. They realized their potential, but like immediately. You know, people were kind of jumping on me when I was co streaming these games and they're like, It's just a honeymoon phase. I'm like, man, we haven't even had a honeymoon phase with any North American I like, I just wanna win, man. Like I literally you know, I talked with John after they beat Vitality about like thirty or forty minutes. I don't know if you guys caught that at all. ⁓ but I talked with them one on one and we're just snippets, you know. I was just like, yo, did you guys know you guys that was like your best win since like Budapest, where they beat any team, let alone Vitality, top twenty. And he's like, John's like, yeah, that makes sense. We've been terrible. He's like, we've won like five games since like since Budapest. And I'm just, you know. So I I I want to temper my expectations, but also if you're not a liquid fanboy, just understand that anybody that wanted this team to do well. This is ac like it's not just that they beat Vitality, it's just a win, man. Like it's just nice to see things like ⁓ on paper this makes sense. Yada yada yada and then on pa and then in the game it's like that's what we thought like might actually happen 'cause so many times in Liquid it's like on paper, this is kinda cool, this could work. And then it just gets in the server and we're like, they all hate each other. We need a group like therapy session. This team's dead. And it's like the second week of the roster where now this is the opposite. So I mean this is ⁓
speaker-2: Did have a group therapy session with that Cadian team when they went to the beach. Didn't work so
speaker-0: Honestly, they needed more with how that one imploded. They needed more with that roster.
speaker-1: Maybe they never maybe they never need to go back to therapy sessions after that roster imploded.
speaker-0: Yeah, I like this plug, Jason. That's good. That's yeah
speaker-1: yeah, I like the angle. I think the temper expectations angle is important because I actually I actually would counter what you said and say I think they've had a lot of honeymoon periods. I think it's usually I think we get a good amount of honeymoon periods with the liquid lineups over the years, and then by the time the major rolls around, we know it's already dead. Like I think the ultimate coming ultimate coming in and having his pop off was a little bit of a honeymoon period coming in there. Yakinder, when he first joined the team, was like a honeymoon period swing. They had a good cologne there. I think they went to the quarterfinals at that first event that they Yeah.
speaker-0: You remember how long Yakinder was though? Sorry, sorry, bro. You're proving my point, I feel like. Yeah, like you're right. Those when Yakinder first joined, it was great with Liquid and Ultimate was good for like one week, but I'm jumping in. Ultimate was on this roster way too long and Yakinder was like forever ago, man. Like I don't
speaker-1: I know, but the first the first like three months of those lineups was fucking sick. Like Ultimate's first three months was
speaker-0: Jason, because you're still holding on to those wings.
speaker-1: I'm just saying there have been a few honeymoon periods in the past.
speaker-2: If we ⁓ what what do we call a period is there a term for like the happiness you get after a divorce? Because this might be slightly better than the honeymoon period. Probably. So like 'cause the divorce has happened. They finally they've been they've been living with Ultimate for too long. He's like just dragging them down, just always in the house, you know, such a negative energy, you know. They bring in this new young guy, you know, Jorko's in there, he's jerking it up in Team Liquid. Everyone's excited. Y everybody loves getting jorked. And ⁓ I think that's just really reinvigorated Liquid. I think it's even a step beyond honeymoon, Jason.
speaker-0: Host a divorced thriving.
speaker-1: Or ⁓ renewal. ⁓
speaker-0: Renew. This is the renewal period for for I don't know. I Googled this. This is what AI is telling me, sorry guys, this is why we can't afford to ram. Or like like this is just where we're at.
speaker-1: The reason. I think I just think I think look, I think the the angle of JT as being like this Elige whisperer, I think is a little bit too much. Like everyone's so pumped and I'm like that that this doesn't surpr like I don't know. I I I don't think the Allege popping off like that's something I I know what this team is gonna look like when Alleja's having good games. I think the measure of of like the JT whisperer is gonna be like how often do we get it? How often do we get this allege? Is it two games? Is it gonna be like one in every five maps? Is it gonna be
speaker-2: There's gonna be these.
speaker-1: Two out of three maps in a s like how often are we gonna see a liege looking comfortable and confident and playing this well? 'Cause that's the important factor, not that it can happen, because we already know that shit. ⁓ so yeah, I'm I'm just at like I'm at the point where I'm like, I've I've been burned too many times. I like I'm like I'm happy. I'd rather it be this than anything else. But I think I guess the worrying thing for me is what are your expectations from here now? Do these two wins change your expectations for this team? But now that they've beat I it's online Counter Strike, but now your expectations have risen. So what happens if the next thing that comes is struggles?
speaker-0: Yeah, no, I think that's fair. I think it does change my expectation just in the sense that I really was just timid before to like be excited about the roster. So like now I feel like I could actually just be excited. That's like the Yeah, yeah. I'm not really like ⁓
speaker-1: Let you unleash a little bit. Alright, so we got the child magic out of the way. Now get to the heart of it. What's it what's it really like when you peel back the left?
speaker-2: I'm a lot more excited about Liquid than I have been for the last like two years. So I think that's that's a positive. And I think when you go to the land, like if they perform well in Malta, you know, I think it's important to start the season strong, ⁓ get some confidence at this kind of event. 'Cause you go into, you know, the bigger events down the line towards the end of the year and ⁓ I think that the team liquid just need to hit the ground running straight away. I I I don't think these players who were in that previous core could deal with another couple of months of slowly gr you know, sludging their way through Ga losing to and just, you know, this cycle of loss just over and over again. I'm I think this is really important that they had such a big win versus vitality just to like completely change the energy inside of the squad. Like yes, you remove a lot of players, it feels like it's it going in a new direction, but the fact that you do get an immediate result is just gonna do wonders for the mentality of the liquid players. And and I and I think that's just gonna be like, ⁓ breath of fresh air, like we actually can win.
speaker-1: That's a fair point.
speaker-2: And there's such ⁓ you know, i in sports and anything really like as soon as a competitor's reminded of what they're capable of, like Alige's gotta feel like, Okay, you know, this is this is more like me, this is what he's been trying to get to. So hopefully he goes on a bit of a hot streak as well. Like Alige playing well makes obviously Team Liquid just a whole different team, like a whole different beast.
speaker-1: Actually I think one of the things that that was really cool out of the win, I don't know if he mentioned this to you at all Flam when you spoke to him. ⁓ I I think I heard Jorko in like a postgame interview after they beat Vitality mention that he'd been working like a lot with Aliege, like pretty co closely like one on one. Which like more than anything, that's actually makes me a lot more excited than watching Alige be so dominant inside the server. I like seeing John take that like kind of leadership responsibility with the new younger players as well. Because there's a lot of incredible examples around the scene right now of veteran players being able to do that and being able to maximize how much they get out of these younger players. And I think John's a perfect mind to do it. ⁓ so I like that that's probably the most exciting thing to come out of those wins in my mind for this for this liquid roster. As weird as that might sound.
speaker-0: I mean, no, we did talk about that actually. You guys should watch it. Like I'm like I'm plugging myself. I'm I'm sad that you guys did. But no, but let me add this. Flam clips and highlights. Flam clips and highlights. Yeah, you could go in there. But no, it's like ten minutes. But no, we actually talked exactly about that. I asked him about that. ⁓
speaker-1: Where's it at, baby?
speaker-0: I I don't know if I 100% agree with you because I think it takes the right type of person. But what was fun to learn is Jorko is that person. So like John is very like anybody that has been around him or has even just like watched his YouTube videos, you can tell that he's very analytical, more so than like probably any other CS player. And I would say it's what makes him who he is and so successful, but also it creates his own faults. Yeah. With Jorko.
speaker-1: It's the double edged sword.
speaker-0: John said that basically he visualizes and sees the game the the game the same way he does, like in terms of like that analysis. So when they talk, it's like super easy for him to basically go through everything and help him build out that process rather than like it's not quite like the, you know, the story. It like they were they're like a good fit. It's not only is John just like trying to take on that role, which I do think you're right. I think he realizes the value in that as well. ⁓ but Jorko has the right personality type for him to help him succeed. And yeah, that's that was like really exciting to hear. You know, back to the original, like my expectation, kind of just like for overall, I don't necessarily see them as world beater necessarily or anything like that. What impressed me the most, and I'm with you, I think the JT Alish thing is kind of like it's easy. I don't really want to give anybody a hard time. It's true, it's e it's easy to talk about for the broadcasts, but that's like What's fun co-streaming and then doing this is I don't have to talk about that because I have more time to talk. And I think in general, what makes JT so good is he always has a plan. And it's so painfully obvious. And I know that sounds really like surface level, but and certain maps play into that a lot harder. But if you watch those two indubus games specifically, even when Liquid lost rounds, the immediate following round there was always a plan, and typically it involves some sort of proactive move. Which is what you have to do on Anubis, which also why it makes it so hard on C T side, but also is why JT is such a strong caller because that is his personality through and through in every single map. There's always a plan, there's always the next step, there's always the next move. Where I'd fault him is maybe being a leader of men in general, but in terms of his actual how he sees the game, how he starts around, how he does everything, he's always pushing forward and he's never had players as good as he's had on Liquid. People will say, like, he had Senzu for a second when he like a hired mercenary and they like barely practiced. That doesn't fucking count. Like this is the best roster he's ever had access to across the board when you look at all the rules and the most experience he's had with other players. And he's always able to basically have a plan and push forward, which is an incredible attribute to have with IGLs. You see it even with like IGLs that I think are veterans and good, you'll see it with like a like Hooksie's a great example where you listen into the comms and Hooksie's still talking about the last round. Like and and You you sometimes feel the need to do that. And I'm not trying to even like dunk on him right now, but it's to prove a point that certain IGLs also, I think, have this incredible ability to like kind of say it, but then immediately move. And that was reflected in everything that Liquid did. And that was why I was like that what had that's what ⁓ had me most excited. It wasn't John's performance. I didn't think John anybody that thought Elise just lost the ability to fucking aim is brain dead. And I don't care about your point.
speaker-2: I think a great thing about JT as well is he doesn't have that clash with ⁓ with a liege the way Shuai did as well, right? So that that just immediately frees up so much more for a liege. ⁓ and probably a lot more comf ⁓ comfortability just across the entire map pool. You know, when you have an in-game leader as you mentioned has so many ideas, but also just isn't going to step on his toes, get in his way, have a little JT isn't gonna call for himself either. Like that's such a big thing. And I I also think Team Liquid have lost so much confidence in in each other over the last few months obviously with that previous roster. You just can't trust the guy next to you. ⁓ so I I it's really nice to hear like the attitude around Jorko and Alice being confident and sort of p bigging up his new Opera in the team because I think it's painfully obvious how much of a liability ultimate was. And like the players were just you can't even deny it. Like the mistakes he was making, you know, the coach desperately trying to figure out a way to implement him to make better decisions. No, it's just that was such a big problem. ⁓ down the line. So if you're actually confident in your Opera and your in-game leader isn't stepping on your toes for your star player, I mean it's just obvious that like it just makes more sense for Team Liquid and you're immediately seeing that for a leash. So yeah, ho hopefully it continues. But I'm I'm optimistic ⁓ that it will continue. But obviously I don't really know how high the ceiling can go for Liquid at all.
speaker-1: Yeah. Well I think I think by the end of the season probably like ten to fifteen on the VRS is like probably a a pretty healthy ambitious goal.
speaker-0: You're higher than me. I would I was just gonna say like it would be. I I think I I think they're gonna struggle because they did so poorly. I said invites. Well no no, like maybe level of caliber of team, but like actual VRS, if that's what we're talking about, like it when you say that, I just think that that might be that could be really hard for them to achieve. Sure. It really is gonna be dependent on this because they were just so bad that they've missed so many invites. I think if you saw Flashy's tweet today
speaker-2: That would be amazing.
speaker-1: Tem to fifty.
speaker-0: You know, he was really he was rationalizing not only why are they in overlapping tournaments, let's be honest, they didn't expect to make the land, but like they're trying to gun it for a specific timeline for a certain invite window for a certain number of events because they've missed so many and that's kind of the that's the negative with VRS is once you're kind of out, you are outside looking in until you punch your way through again.
speaker-1: Here's here's another negative with the VRS as it pertains to Team Liquid, is because there were so many events with Falcons out, what Vitality is out, ⁓ Spirits through, who's the other big favorite that's out now? Furia, I don't think, made it either. They got they got knocked out. G2 is the other one that looked the online portion of this event actually gives more VRS points than the LAN portion of the event.
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓
speaker-1: Because of because of all the favorites, because of the bounty now. So you're kinda like, Yeah, we qualified to this, but now it doesn't have nearly as many VRS points available as we thought it might. And Liquid is also, I think, selecting last in the rotation for the play.
speaker-0: So then they will get the benefit 'cause they'll get spirit. So they will they'll get I mean, hey, you got vitality, somebody got falcons, why not? And you know, actually what do you guys th I I was saving this for later, but what do you guys think about spirit right now? Like actually, like we might as well just
speaker-1: So they will have the benefit at the very least.
speaker-2: Donk is just still unbelievable. I think we'll just say that every podcast, every episode, is just incredible. ⁓ there's just no one no one like him, you know. No when you watch it like there's obviously players like Zaiwoo, etc. like close you know, at the top of the world, but it's just watching Donk is just unbelievable how consistently incredible he is on the rifle. And it's just it doesn't matter how well you're playing, he will just inevitably show up and destroy you at the end. Like it was that was strange to see in the clone. playoffs. ⁓ you know, sadly he he disappeared there. But like these kind of tournaments I just never doubting Donk. And I mean when you when you have him at an event of this scale, like he's good online, he's good on land, there's like he's just not gonna disappear. So I I think that's he just makes Teams of Spirit incredibly consistent at events of this level.
speaker-0: Do you I mean you guys feel like instead of Donk though, did you guys just get this like even though it's online, this feeling like Spirit just completely went backwards, like entirely with Halley back in the lineup? I I just wanna tell me can I let me actually I'll speed run this and I'm actually curious what you guys think. Do you guys think that Halley commands not commands has too much respect from his players that when he is actually involved with the team's lineup on a direct level when the games are live? That it negatively impacts the team. Not that he does something or anything, just purely this is my current working theory is that they look
speaker-1: They know the coach standing behind them has this philosophy and they want to adhere to this philosophy because that's the one the coach is talking about.
speaker-0: It's a dad you don't want to disappoint or something like that. Is literally cause this team looks so clammed up and it looked like they were the team bef it looks like the first half of ⁓ last season, not not before they went on the run. So before we continue that wonderful conversation, I need to thank today's sponsor for the NQ podcast, CS Money, because without them, Moneyman Moses wouldn't be able to be here and he wouldn't be able to make time for us. So Thank you very much, CS Money, for sponsoring NQ. As many of you guys already know, if you're familiar with my content, CS Money is strictly a trading and marketplace website. So I got lower prices than Steam. You can do quick trades. They have probably one of the biggest inventories, if not the biggest, of any site out there. You could use PayPal or crypto if you want to buy through the marketplace. They also have like an instant sell feature. So if you're just trying to move your stuff quick for whatever reason, you could do that directly through them and sell some of your inventory. That sounds interesting, make sure you guys check out the link in the description below. As always, like to say, be careful guys, not just like with this or with anything. Just be careful with clicking links out there. There's a lot of impersonators of all of these sites. And I just want people to be careful, genuinely. So just, you know, just a little warning for me. We'll get back into the video now.
speaker-1: not gonna pass any judgment on anything with online counter strike. I'm just not. So I mean maybe maybe there's something there and maybe you're right, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna like when I when I watch them this week, I mean look, it's it makes me scratch my head and it sucks and it's a b and it's kind of annoying. Seeing them drop a map to OG, drop a map to a hundred thieves as well, especially Hundred Thieves ⁓ smoked ⁓ on that Mirage thirteen to four. So watching them drop those is kinda like, fuck, this isn't the spirit I wanna see at the moment, but It's online counter strike, so I wouldn't say that it's anything clammed up because of a coach. My initial instinct is always, well, they're just kind of playing like shit because it's online counter strike and teams of this caliber generally generally play twenty percent less good if I was to throw an estimated number at it.
speaker-0: Did you have a chance to like watch each of the rounds though? Or like were you just ⁓ just curious. Like, did you see how some of the
speaker-1: watching super in depth. I was watching the Hunter Thieves game. I didn't see the OG one. I just watched the Hunter Thieves game ⁓ after I saw the ⁓ the first map.
speaker-0: Yeah, it was like less individual performance based for me and just more so like literally like the calling and the decision making was fucking rough. It was like really egregious. That's what that was like more so what I like, man, what what is like that was that's what scares me. That's all
speaker-2: And you don't You don't want see that because of the month the you know, the months leading up to the major and and you know, during the major we were always talking about the fact like what would you do? Like you're watching these players who've just come out and look so much better when Holly isn't there and Saltfix being the main coach, they look a lot more freed up to Near in particular. ⁓ the reason, you know, when you ask me about Team Spirit, it is just Donk, like, is the difference. Like if it if if you don't have Donk there, it's just okay, maybe that last map against Hunter Thieves, obviously he's the hard carry and they stole thirteen zero but It's across the board, like OG donks just kinda pulling them out of specific rounds, getting you a multi killer, the crucial rounds and the crucial moments of the game. So again, it's like yeah, I I feel across the board they look so average with when they have that structure. But like when they had ⁓ Sotfik coming in as that main guy as the coach instead of Holly, I I feel like you got to see way more out of Tenier that you just never seen. So I think that team I I I would definitely read into what you're saying, Flaum later down the line, like It's a bad first sign like that he's come back and we do see them look a little rough, especially because of how good they were looking like for months on the lead up. So, ⁓ I think give it a one or two more events and ⁓ I think we'll really start to get that answer. But I I feel like there is a worrying sign that that could be the case.
speaker-1: think I think we need to be really careful with Spirit and how you how we look at them from the outside and analyze it because I I think how well they played at the major and how well Magic stood up as a caller in high pressure games that were going deep into overtimes might have made us all forget a little bit that he's still a very new and very inexperienced IGL. So there's going to be this bounce up and down. There's gonna be some inconsistency in performance. There's gonna be a map that looks good one day and looks like shit the next day as they still kind of get the feel for how he's calling on it and how he feels with how his players are playing. And you have the coaching situation bouncing back and forth. So I think there's a lot of factors that go into it and it's very simple to point it at Halley and say this is this is the issue because it was such a good talking point before the major as well and a fair one at that point. I think just right now there's a lot of just variable swirling swirling around that team. So for me it's just kinda like I'm gonna chill and I'm gonna wait and I'm gonna see a little bit more because yeah, Donk is a big part of the team, obviously as Dinko's saying. I think Shiro is an incredible piece as well. Those two guys get a mask a lot of these issues with how well they've played and how well they played leading into the last major. So there's there's some crazy shit going on with them, but I'm not super concerned until I start seeing this team show us some weird shit at actual events.
speaker-0: Okay. Yeah yeah. No, I mean they were the only top dog not to fuck up. I I would say that was more so because of dog than anything else, but that doesn't matter. He's on your team, so
speaker-1: You'd you'd still, despite these struggles, you're gonna have this team in the category of like the vitality spirit falcons as like your three Falcons is still hung over. Like
speaker-0: And they they they looked rough, I won't lie. The ⁓ you know one deserved to make it like the variables. What did you guys think about Mongols actually? I I forgot to list this in here, but what do we ⁓ how do you how you guys you guys like the new the new pickups? Like how do you feel about this team? Do you think like it might not I was pretty doomed. I don't think I mentioned it to you guys, but I went and yapped with Maui and Thorne and like my my viewpoint was like this could Not kill Asian Counter Strike necessarily, but remove Asian Counter Strike from the talking point of like the elite teams. Like right, like we went from like at one point with Mongols, it was like they might win this tournament. Like when are they gonna win a tournament? To now it's just like I'm over here like I hope they don't become like not in tier one tournaments because they all these things going on. I kinda fell on the fact that I think nine ten is actually such a good opera that especially in early stages of tournaments, it can hide it. But I'm just curious, what did you guys think of ⁓ ⁓ wait, Tik TikTok and Darkmeister. What did you guys
speaker-1: Now you're pronouncing it? Chad and I had a debate on how to pronounce his name. ⁓ fuck. I said it I said it was probably Tik.
speaker-0: I I don't think it's I don't know, dude. I I got nothing. You and I are from the Midwest of the United States. What the f usually we're wrong, honestly, Jason, is what I've like? It's all good. Like it's
speaker-2: T. We know Tquak messed up some guys in the Midwest over on that wild card team. So yeah, I mean you can call them whatever you want. But the the ⁓ the Mongols, I s especially that first game, I was so depressed watching them get beat thirteen five ⁓ by heroic. Like I was like, ⁓ the Mongols are dead. Like they hasn't they haven't been able to find ⁓ the replacements. 'Cause I think what we always talk about Mara is like the fact that he's always able to find the next guy at the land cafe, bringing up the new Mongolian replacement. You know, every single
speaker-0: Every day.
speaker-2: ⁓ showing up. He's just walking around like at the it's finding them in the building. Like it it's crazy. I you know, when I went there it's just there is just seas of people playing on PCs all day just playing
speaker-1: He's got eyes on all of them.
speaker-2: So many building. Yeah, he's just recruiting scouts everywhere. But you know, there's so many times like over the years where Mongols have made a move and removed the player and you think, ⁓ that's that's just killed Mongols. Like that that one has killed them. How are they going to replace someone like Score? Then they were replaced him with like Mzinio who and who replaces Batak, they bring Senzu into the team. It's like, ⁓ this team's like so much better and they become major runners up. ⁓ I thought the Cobra Zera move was actually pretty good and I was a little bit surprised that he was removed so early. ⁓ but I think these two players, I don't have a huge amount of faith. I'm actually kinda sad for the Mongols that they've they've had to lose Mzinio and and Senzu, who've gone on to a team that I just don't think are gonna do very much. ⁓ it's just sad to kill the Mongols in this way and I just don't see them becoming a very good team. I don't think they're gonna be inspired at all with this roster to to go and try and chase the heights of the previous Mongols team. I think this team are gonna be actually pretty happy if they can get a team around ten to fifteenth in the world like Team Liquid. ⁓ when when a few months ago we were talking about this team or like a year ago obviously talking about this team as a us a roster who could compete for the biggest titles. So I think it's pretty sad and ⁓ Asia have lost their leading squad and they've taken a massive
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, one of the Talisman teams for sure.
speaker-1: I'll I mean, I'm not gonna pretend like I know anything about these two players like Dark Meister is a pretty sick name, Jason. ⁓ Dark Meister is a cool name. I don't know anything about how he plays Counter-Strike. Same with Tikwok. I don't know anything about how he plays CS. But I mean I'll tell you this you have a pretty solid core of nine ten blitz and techno, as you're saying, with the way the op can be so influential, strong early on, you can have a little bit of a leg up. I think you have experience in calling, experience in training players up. I'm still gonna give Mara the benefit of the doubt and say you can probably do it again because he's done damn good with all the replacements he's found considering the situations. I'm with you. I don't think they're gonna reach that peak of the previous one, but ⁓ you know the the one of the things that the previous roster had is they were always so good, I feel like, of having like a high floor. Like they were always so good at beating teams like beneath them and at like a certain ranking point. It was getting over the hump towards the top levels that they struggled with. So I think if you have a team like that that's just gonna have two more really strong, talented Mechanical, individually skilled Mongolian players. This can still be a team that's just like a nuisance to deal with. I think they can still have a couple like, you know, surprising quarter final placements here and there.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I had like an interesting debate on a ⁓ on my one of my co-streams about this. I'm just curious, like you we talk about I agree with you guys that like they're able to bring in this talent and like maintain relevancy, but there is like this interesting thing where now people I I heard Scranny and Launders said it on the cast, but then they they almost like walked it back. But this idea, do you guys actually think it's the system then that Mongols has? Or do you
speaker-2: Yeah, they just got at the ceiling.
speaker-0: ⁓ because I actually don't believe that. Just so you I could come clean here. I actually don't believe that Mongols has a strong system that allows them to continuously maintain their floor. I actually think that the individuals they keep getting for like are just so strong that they bail them out of many even the rookies, like what I see the individual level that I see out of them is so high immediately, which is the craziest part to me. I actually feel like it's their system that holds them back a lot of the time from ⁓ like ascending, but it's hard because it's like this weird thing where the Counter-Strike world would tell you you keep changing players, you lose star players, and you're maintaining relevancy each time you do it, then surely it would be the system. But I every time I watch that team play, they're exciting to watch. But man, I see so many like I'll just I see so many stupid decisions being made by the Mongols. Where I'm just I'm just like scratching my head. I'm like, what the fuck just happened? But then they just go win the next round and the rookies that they bring in look like they have like they don't even know what anxiety or nervousness is of the scale of the event that they're playing in and they just shoot hard still and it's like Yeah. So I'm just curious, like, do you guys like think that there's something like maybe with Mara or like Blitz that they're able to like some Maybe it's not the system in the game as much of you know, how they are able to maybe calm players. Like I don't know. It's just it's just an interesting debate.
speaker-2: Going back to, you know, the point of like the Mongols inside the server, I don't think they've ever done anything special that you can say he's like, ⁓ this is a crazy system. I think for the Mongols it's always been they do the simple stuff really well and their individuals are mechanically incredibly gifted and even when they make stupid decisions and make mistakes, so many times you see a an individual player like recover it or pull pull off s a k kill they shouldn't get which gives them a chance to win the round. I think that's happened so many times. ⁓ and there's so many times where we we finished the map, Jason, where were casting them all goals and we're just saying they're like, How did they like win that? Like it was like I think on T side nuke it's just like how they're just running that red rot box. They've got two kills outside they shouldn't have found. ⁓ it just happens a lot. And I think that is the there's just I don't think there is a system at all. I think they're just good at calling simple calls and being very effective individuals and I think they go out there and they find maybe players with good personalities that kind of fit in the team. ⁓ but also just very, very talented, mechanically gifted players that you can kind of rein in a little bit. I think Cobra was making a lot of mistakes at the start of Mongols. He ran him in a little bit, but obviously they haven't seen enough in him that they want to keep him around. So ⁓ I think another thing about the system outside of the server, I would say the fact that they're Mongolian really helps in terms of creating sort of a a bubble around themselves at events, right? You're not dealing with much else other than being there for the Mongolian press or You know, they you're not getting on the same social media hype. They they're not s big social media guys either. You know, that's all very much they're famous in Mongolia, they're respected in Mongolia, but they don't have to deal with all the pressures that some of the other players in the international squads are dealing with. And I think going to events and just being able to keep a very small, tight knit culture within your team kind of helps with the big moment. You know, if if you're Monasy, etc. like these players, Kiyosuke had to join a a Falcons team where the pressure immediately is on him from All these different countries, fans from all over the world are gathering outside the hotel to try and see you. There's so much pressure because the Mongols just kinda get to float around and chill. ⁓ and I think there is a certain bubble culture within them that they're able to shield themselves from. ⁓ the extra pressure that some of the bigger squads get.
speaker-1: y yeah, I think ⁓ I don't know, I with the I system just always comes off as such a buzzword to me, so like ⁓ I we don't have to go down that road. So it kinda depends on like what you wanna d where you wanna discuss with that. I think they're just kind of like a really simple counter.
speaker-0: Why do you think their floor is so good with so much random
speaker-2: Sure.
speaker-1: I mean to like use the buzzword, like I don't I'm with I'm with Dinko where I don't think they have like a true system that's has any depth or complexity in terms of protocols and reactions and how they respond to different situations. I think they have a very simple strat book that they kind of all bring the same philosophy to, which is I know what kills I'm supposed to get, and I'm gonna be super aggressive and chasing those kills down and and reacting and how I'm gonna react and you kinda live and die based off that kind of simple execute with the aggression and they do it pretty damn well and they shoot pretty damn hard so they're they're gonna get some rounds and in that sense I think it's kind of sort of easy to plug some new bodies into it. Not teaching them super, super complex, deep like, ⁓ when you see these smokes or when this kind of combination when this player dies and this player's able to be here, you have to be in this position. You know, like th those are th I doubt that conversation is happening. And I think too Yeah, yeah. That's an easy way to put it. yeah, I I think too it's like you're also Fuck I had a point and it just disappeared. And it just disappeared. No, you're fine. Give me a second. Give me a second.
speaker-2: Does this happen when you get old?
speaker-1: Yeah, more and more as you go on.
speaker-0: Chill. I'm catching him, bro, chill.
speaker-2: Mm-hmm. Okay.
speaker-1: I'll get it in a second. I'll get it in a second. I'll get it in a second.
speaker-2: Okay. ⁓ from the other side of things it's like for the for the Mongols as well, I think just back to your point, Jason, they're just so
speaker-1: No, I got it. I got it. I got it. So this could be like an Aurora kind of a situation with Blitz in Major, right? Like where where Major always had that situation where he was like, I would love to be doing things a little bit more complex, but I don't feel like I have the players who can pull it off, whether they don't have like the patience needed or the understanding of the big game plan and concepts and and and CS game knowledge to be able to understand why they're doing this and why they're supposed to be doing this. ⁓ So I could I could see a world where Blitz is in a similar situation coming from a region that is well like we're always amazed at how he's able to pull people out, but there can't be a depth of like game knowledge that are objective or goal. That too. So it's it's kinda like, you know, you you might be in a world where like maybe there's a couple of people who do want to make it more complex, but not only more roster changes now, but you just don't have the the fucking players ⁓ with which to do it because they're not experienced enough to implement those ideas.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: But this is all just musics.
speaker-2: I another year.
speaker-0: That's what podcasts are, bro. It's all just bullshit.
speaker-2: I think a unique that has come up for the Mongols that you never really thought was gonna be a thing is that international interest has come through for their best players. Like wonder would you ever like two years ago, do you ever think we'd be talking about European teams trying to buy Mongolian players? I mean, this is the team that were just refusing to speak English at all. Yeah, and now we've got Mzinho and Senzi, who are playing with simple and electronic. Like it just sounds mental, but it it's happened. So the Mongols have lost ⁓ two of their best players. To an international roster and that's something I just never thought would happen for the Mongolian teams. So they've managed to pull it off.
speaker-0: Maybe. I'd I'd agree with you more if it was a different team. BC game is ⁓ a a bit of an outlier here, Dinko. I don't know if I'm We're not talking about Senzu getting poached by like a top tenure. We're talking about Senzu going from being a mercenary to passion to then going to crypto casino BC game with the infinite money glitch that is j is absolutely down to just splash cash for some fun. And that's where we're at, you know what I mean? Like I don't know not that sense like I like they're they're world class players where they couldn't do that jump, but like I wouldn't put them in that, you know, ⁓ yeah, this is it. Like they were gonna be joining, you know, any international team whatsoever ⁓ across the board. I think B C game is unique. They're an outlier. I don't know if I I don't know if I count them.
speaker-2: Jason Jason's getting a call up here. What do you reckon we're talking about here on this side of things?
speaker-0: ⁓ this is liquid calling Jason back to
speaker-2: There's a team look at it's like Jason, do you think we should keep going? Do you think we're gonna win this event?
speaker-0: Do you But how many magic cards will it take you to GM our roster?
speaker-2: All right, what do you reckon this was? Jason, you gotta tell us what was the call?
speaker-1: I apologize, plumber.
speaker-0: ⁓ not the pissed. We had a way cooler stor we had a way cooler story. We we said I said you're gonna be the GM Eliquid, they're gonna pay you magic cards, but
speaker-2: Chadburn.
speaker-1: ⁓ baby. ⁓ baby. Now we're cooking. Get me in there, coach.
speaker-0: Hell yeah. I've never this is the happiest I've seen Jason. Like ever. Holy shit.
speaker-1: Wait, Flam, wait, I I wanna backtrack to before I answered the phone call. I don't know how how deep you guys went. You're telling me you don't think this B C game th is this not a statement now of picking up Mazino that they're here to be competitive, that this isn't
speaker-2: Just still got electronic on the team. They you cannot say you're competitive when you got electronic on the team.
speaker-0: I don't want to go right now. No, it's not a serious team. It's not a serious team. It could be. They listen, it Matt ⁓ They got Mizina's can I yell international roster with two Mongolians that have never been an international roster with known calming presence that helps build teams electronic and also also known very patient simple. ⁓ I don't know if you've seen the Lord of the Rings.
speaker-1: Yeah. Mazinho speaks great English.
speaker-2: And sings very well. He could sort soothe the mood in the team, a little throat singing.
speaker-0: Still doesn't change that it's their first international roster and it still doesn't change that let me check my notes. They have zero fucking VRS points.
speaker-1: Yeah, but does it change the intention? Of course it's a brand new
speaker-2: No expectations.
speaker-0: I know, but does it change the intention? Not really, I feel like. I've like I I don't know. It feels like you have a lot of money and you went and poached and bought out players that are very good and you played Esports Manager twenty twenty six and made a roster. And honestly get listen, I will pay attention to them and I will be excited to see that roster when they're in a tournament that I'm allowed to co stream. The thing is, I will not see that until the major at best. That is their route. Like their route is through the doldrums of tier two, tier three, they sneak in their invite of EU and they get in there, and I watch them stage one, and I'm like, ⁓ my God. And that's where I'm gonna form all my opinions about this roster. And that's like before then, it's just gonna be like, I'm gonna check the HL TV page. I might react to it and pretend like I really watched the game. I totally didn't, because it's gonna be ⁓ a a an event that I just didn't get to watch and there's only so much time in the day. And I'll be like, ⁓ yeah, they might make the major and that'll be about it until they make stage one 'cause I don't even think they could probably make stage two like the way that this starts so
speaker-2: I the point you raise is perfect because there's no doubt about the skill on this team. Like there's so many skilled players on the roster. It's entirely about mentality and team culture. And it's just it's gonna be a shit show. Like it's simply put, like it's gonna be an absolute mess. Like it I don't know how you're going to get these people to all get on the same page. Like there's
speaker-1: I'm so excited for
speaker-0: Actually I know, I know. You know how they're gonna bring it all together, right?
speaker-1: In some ways it's the most
speaker-2: It's a good thing Taz is already bald man 'cause like it would be GG within the first week, I feel like. I the at least the one positive thing I have about this BC Game Squad is that in Atlanta I think I got glimpses of a simple that really truly wanted it. And like just walking around, you've just seen like yeah how frustrated he was that he just wasn't quite getting there. ⁓ and you know, trying to push his teammates. I think with Mzinio and Senzu, they are shining lights. Magisk, I don't know. Like I feel like there's part of him that's gonna want to prove that he still got it, like hell feel a little bit slighted he got removed from that Falcons team and and to try and show that he can truly do I know he's been wanting the IGL for a while. He's been approaching a couple of different organizations to try and become the IGL, but I just don't know like if he has that hunger, if things if you look at simple electronic and you look at the two Mongolians in your team and you're you're not seeing that result quickly and you've still got the mountain to climb to get back from zero VRS points. I don't know How strong the mentality of Magic is gonna be in the in-game leader department as well to try and pull everything together.
speaker-1: ⁓ I mean, yeah, it's gonna be an absolute shit show. I mean there's no logical reason why any of this should work. Mm ⁓ you know, I'm just making the point, you know, you make these kind of moves as an organization, you're you are kinda making the statement that we want to be competitive. You know, you don't you don't make these moves, all of these moves, purely for just eyeballs, you know?
speaker-2: ⁓ I think that that's exactly
speaker-0: Where I don't agree with you. That's actually ⁓ where I don't agree with you, Jace. Yes, I bro they have a fuck it's an online c I'm not even trying to get into morality here. I'm just saying it's an online crypto casino, bro. I live in a place where we build a goddamn building every fucking couple years because of how much people lose. Now you don't even have the overhead. This is infinite money glitch. What? You're gonna tell me that come on, go ahead.
speaker-1: to discuss like corporate structure. I know the fucking casino executive doesn't give a fuck about the counter strike team. But whatever whatever they person they put in charge of this and said, here's ten million dollars, go make me a counter strike team, he's competitive. He's taking it for real.
speaker-0: But I'm seeing the CEO fucking trying to get Jason. That's like like and I'm not even saying that this can't be a serious team. I'm just saying
speaker-1: I don't follow the CEOs. I don't follow the CEOs. No.
speaker-0: No, I just I don't either. It just shows up in my shit where he's just like, you know, it's like we got no cries for Atlanta and I also know that he put in small text as a sub that won't play. Like it's like and you know it's stuff like that all the time, like where it's like, Okay, I'm not even I'm not hating the game. I'm just also acknowledging
speaker-2: Just turn this team into the Truman show. Just put a camera in every room and put them all in one house and like turn it into the Truman show and this will be the most popular team in Counter Strike history, I think. It's like you're just sitting there
speaker-1: That's actually a
speaker-0: I just know how much these I I know how much those fucking casinos wheel and deal when it comes to streamers and Jason talks about like a ten million dollar budget. Brother, they don't care, Jason. They don't have a budget. I was throwing out a number. Like they might have one, maybe, theoretically. Probably not. Like the CEO they used to sponsor C nine and then they made their own team. You think they did that out of they're bored, bro. This guy is probably bored out of his mind, likes Counter Strike and is throwing yeah, he's not. He's like, I got simple, he's like, Let me go get Senzu. Fuck it, Mizinha wants to come too, this is sick. And I just Do you I don't think this is some carefully orchestrated plan, is all I'm saying. I think like they just splashed the cash, got the names that they could get. And yeah, they will have my attention when they are enough to do so, but like it's like
speaker-1: Of course it's not organized and planned out in any significant way.
speaker-0: But you're kind of implying that. Like they have to basically structure my ⁓ ass.
speaker-1: Well, here's the question. After with all that money, do you think they want a podcast?
speaker-0: Maybe. Ooh, wait now. Wait. See Money Man versus back at it again.
speaker-1: Shissan, hypothetically speaking.
speaker-0: Hypothetically.
speaker-2: Do the Truman show ⁓ pack it up over a PC game. ⁓ but not not Jason's
speaker-0: Jason, we should get paid. Anyway, go ahead th then go.
speaker-2: But ⁓ the real goat the real goat for Jason's device on a hundred thieves and damn they look good. They just signed a lovely British man, Jason. We had a beer with him, the things the vibes look good over at Monty after the cologne major, even after the exit, we're like, Wow this team is friends. And now they all hate each other, Jason. It all falls in
speaker-1: They'll pass.
speaker-2: Ruined it all. You and I ruined it. After that, they never will see each other again.
speaker-0: You did all that and four of them literally knew they were God.
speaker-1: They were like they like, What'd you think? I like, ⁓ man, I hope you guys sit together. It was a lot of fun watching you play some cool Counter-Strike. Like, you know, maybe it's gonna get a little bit better moving forward. Like it's it's fucking s
speaker-0: Including Kizmi's not in on it with you guys. They're all j you guys are just sitting there, Kizme's like, Hell yeah, dude, we made the run and the rest of them are just like
speaker-2: Yo, Gizmy kinda landed on his feet though.
speaker-1: I did the whole thing. I was like, I hope you guys keep your chin up and you're not taking the loss too hard. It was a great run, a great tournament, fun, fun to watch.
speaker-0: No, we're not. So you guys are the reason why Gizmy was ⁓ not signed. Okay, good to know. I mean we were happy.
speaker-1: Yeah, we're downgrade.
speaker-2: No, if ⁓ it's a positive thing really. Gizmi has kinda he's won that situation. He's big time won.
speaker-1: His wardrobe now is gonna be fucking awesome. With like just like a few months in a hundred thieves and he's gonna be so fucking cool. Walking around London
speaker-2: The problem is no matter how cool your clothes are, you're still sitting beside a device. So it's like they ain't always they're not gonna look the best. That's the sad part. But ⁓ I mean, they look the best on the server. That was fantastic. The best we've seen from them. ⁓ I was I was really happy to see a hundred thieves playing really well.
speaker-1: Outside of the outside of the thirteen ⁓
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Like the way to just fucking be a downer. Like
speaker-2: You know that was one map out of all the other
speaker-1: Literally can we operate in reality? They they got a thirteen o'd like
speaker-0: I'm gonna be able do
speaker-2: By dog, who hasn't got thirty no by dog?
speaker-0: Doing dude, I'm watching this game and Donk doesn't have a single facial expression. They lost map two. He smiled. He fucking smiled at the end of their map two on Mirage. And then I went. I'm scared of that kid. That kid actually is like there's a villain. Mother motherfuckers like a demon. Like, I don't know what's going on. He's a Sith Lord or some shit. Like he's
speaker-2: Favorite to play the next ball in the
speaker-1: I think he's I think he's so good at acknowledging when they lose a map that they lost because they fucking sucked that he just gets over it immediately. I think in his head it's so easy for him to be like, ⁓ we fucking sucked ass that map. Okay, move on. Next one. You know, like he just is like done
speaker-0: I think it's more. I think he's just it it like I he actually does get fueled up. Like you know how like we like to well not me, I'm not a cast with you guys, but that's always like a fun narrative to like try to throw out there, right? As you see a team get dogged on and then be ⁓ yeah, that'll piss them off. That'll
speaker-1: Let's see what kind of a rebuttal ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah. No, but it actually it actually pisses him off. Like ⁓
speaker-2: But the football world cup was in your country, so did you watch the Argentina England game?
speaker-0: ⁓ yes.
speaker-2: So you know that like clip of Juke Bellingham kind of pissing off Messi and he kind of like isn't that I feel like that's Donk man, like he that's like that same sort of attitude, like you lose the map, it's like all right, fine, I'll do it myself and just takes over for that third one. Like that that Donk does have that special quality and I think Simple had that as well before. Like there's just this attitude, Okay, yeah, we we we actually suck, so I'm just gonna do it myself. ⁓ and he has the skills to actually do it.
speaker-0: Yeah, the with the face where he turned yeah.
speaker-1: It's pretty telling that we came into this topic to discuss a hundred thieves and we've now worked our way to Donkey.
speaker-2: You did that. ⁓
speaker-0: That was a crazy fucking map, dude. I'm sorry. Like that was fucking nuts.
speaker-1: I'm just I'm just gonna say, I mean, like, I don't know, again, it's like hundred thieves. I'm not gonna pass any judgment on this team. Yeah, they beat Falcons, but ⁓ I mean chat pointed this out to me today on the podcast is like look at the games they've played with this lineup online. It's like they've also lost a K twenty seven online, they've also lost a T D K online, they've lost to NIP, and they've lost a l they lost to Nuclear Tigers or T Ters. Exactly. Exactly.
speaker-2: Man. Yeah.
speaker-0: No.
speaker-2: I'm selective with her when it counts and when it doesn't. I know it's
speaker-0: Wait a minute. I have the glass half full version of this though, Jason, which is of course they're brand new teams, so their floor is gonna be buns, right? But when you beat a team like Falcons, hangover or not, you do get to see potentially what maybe the ceiling is, so that's kind of exciting. And when you beat up on spirit and arguably were in position to maybe at least take them to overtime, you could say with some of those rounds, maybe even beat them on Anubis. I felt like they had to win Anubis, then they surprised me a mirage. You know, you can see the ceiling, right? That's the glass half full, which that ceiling is a hell of a lot better than anything they were rocking with with rain as an IGL. And I say that as a guy that was excited to see the rain IGL arc and see it like just
speaker-1: I was so excited to see it end. I was so excited.
speaker-0: I'm glad like like I'm happy that it was attempted. Like does that make sense? Like I actually No, but like I don't know. I like to see like new shit. Like I'd rather 'cause I want rain to be around and I in my head I'm like if that's what has to happen for him to stay around then yeah. Yeah, yeah. So but also at the same time when it was not going great, like, okay, yeah, let's get a keep rain 'cause it's still fucking rain. Let's see if he can get back to his you know, doing his thing and
speaker-2: I honestly think that was just something he said 'cause he felt like he needed to. Like I just think he's been in the he'd been in that same team and phase for so long, he didn't really know his own worth. It's like being in a relationship too long, you don't know like how to date after. ⁓ I think that was right. I think he's got his he's got his group.
speaker-1: So he's divorced, now it's this we gotta get you out of that car.
speaker-2: Yeah. Star Strike coming up. The World Cup. I'll be back, Jason, be back in that circuit in no time. ⁓ one of the things that's really confusing to me, and I don't know if you guys are also confused by it, but what the hell has happened to Astralis? Like why why has nothing happened? Like why if they got Neo and they picked up Ursula from Nanfi, but like that's it. I swear I was reading articles and rumors it was gonna be a lot more with his team.
speaker-0: I Stralis saw what G two was doing and was like, We'll try to do the opposite. All right, go ahead then.
speaker-1: No, I mean I I heard the same stuff. I heard I th I expected like probably like one to two changes out of that out of that roster coming out of the major. So I don't know what this means. I don't know if it was like the rumors were just rumors and they they actually had faith in this lineup and decided to go the direction of instead of bolstering with that. Or maybe like instead of bolstering the lineup they decided to bolster like the back office, the w looking over at vitality and the way that they get so much applauded for being an organized front office with with all their kind of
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: mental coach and performance coach and blah blah blah blah blah. Maybe it's they couldn't get the people they wanted that they thought would be a significant improvement, so they decided to stand chill and and not make any changes to it. But either way I don't think I don't think bringing Neo in as a coach is enough to move the needle significantly. I still think that we already saw this team sealing in its first like three months back at pro league. I don't think we're ever gonna see the Sistral's team play as good as they did back at that pro league, unfortunately. Which was what a third, fourth place decider? I think they got fourth. Yeah. Yeah, so they got fourth. I think that was the best we'll see Astraus look.
speaker-2: Again's foot. Yeah.
speaker-0: Ha ha.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ I I just think it some teams are just fucked right now, bro. I'll be honest. Like that's like I think like you're just kind of you have like a moment where it's not too bad, like Astralis just did. And you're not you they know let's just say it how it is. Astralis is not a relevant top five team that's winning a tournament with this roster anytime soon. There that's not really and there's no roster move that changes that. So
speaker-2: I think this roster sea menia this season was so crap. Like I just think it was so underwhelming. It doesn't change anything for the Counter Strike world.
speaker-0: And I just think it kinda is like, you know, these teams are just looking at it, it's like, well, we can make a change now, but does it change anything? Like does this really if we go and we're aggressive with a move to to do something, have we seen enough with our roster where this ⁓ move that we currently would like to make change our overall outlook as a team? And I think that's why they are right where they are. And I think that that may have backfired now because it's looking worse than they expected. ⁓ and I think that just comes down to individual level, just not really being there like they hoped it would be. I think maybe the coach thing like the stereotypical traditional sports thing. You don't really know what to do, so you just replace the coach real quick and see if it sparks something in the team. I i you know, you mentioned different sports. In hockey, we love to do that all the fucking time. ⁓ it literally you just change out the coach. ⁓ fuck it. The team's kinda underperforming. Let's just switch out the coach and see if it sparks some shit. I think that was literally maybe the logic, but I just think that Astralis with their their group of players, no matter who you take out and put somebody in, I am not gonna be sitting here and I don't think any of us are gonna be sitting here telling like talking about how they're now a top ten, top five team. Think their their goal is or a relevant like situation they're in is they can maybe get into the top ten or close to it. Not now after what I saw, but that's like that's it. That's your vision. So you
speaker-1: The goal is perform perform well enough to qualify for the major. That's their goal. You know, they don't really care about the individual placings at events as long as those placings lead to major qualification. Be in the invite bubbles, right?
speaker-0: Probably a little bit higher. Yeah, that's why well, I just feel like those are a little different, right? Especially in EU because you could be there's so many teams where like yeah, so I just wanted to clarify. Yeah, yeah. Like tier one is like top fifteen.
speaker-2: Personally I feel like looking at the moves for Strallis and the way I read it is that they think that they haven't got the most out of their players. They haven't unlocked the maximum they can get out of the players they have on the team. And ⁓ to me it looks like they wanna ri they realize a big issue, or at least they think a big issue, is the mentality. So you you bring in Ursula from Navi, who is their sports psychologist over there, and you bring in Neo, who's more of like a cool head who was in that phase team, you know, a lot of experience. And try and get some more like chill vibes in the team and maybe try and unlock some mental strength in some players like Ryu, maybe Fuzi, to go and be better versions of themselves as players. Like Ryu, I think, is a very frustrating player because I think you get to see little glimpses of brilliance out of him, but I think he just ⁓ falls apart mentally. ⁓ so I'm hoping that maybe from a strawis' perspective, I think that's what they're looking at. It's just like, okay, this is a team that we feel like we maybe get a bit more out of. We've seen the ceiling they can hit, but mentality's probably the big problem. Like Hooksie is a great in-game leader too, but the fact that you you do see like I don't know if people were necessarily handling the harshness that Hooksy can bring to the table sometimes. He's trying to the way he gets the most out of his players. And hopefully the mentality side of things develops through Australia. So
speaker-1: The hooksy angle is is like you have to liken him to like an Apex as an IGL, where that's the kind of outlet of his emotions. He has that same thing as as Apex, where it comes out and it looks like it's gonna be terrible up until you realize that it's not meant to be terrible, it's not meant to be pissed. That's the way his frustration takes form for for better or for worse. So it's not about so much like trying to be zen through it as much as I think it's about like finding ways that the team is going to respond to it in in a positive manner, which is what I imagine they'd be working on the most because you're never gonna stop that. That's been a feature of Hooksy throughout all of his teams. It's just it's just gonna be there. So if you want him as your IGL, you have to ha that that comes along with it as baggage that that you have to work around. I think I think the problem for Astralis is like if I look at what's gonna make this team better without any roster changes, it's like a significant jump up in performance and like realizing of potential of a guy like Fozy, of a guy like Ryu. ⁓ stair's always been solid. We know what Yavi's gonna give you, but he's gonna get better and worse as the team around him plays better or worse, and we know Hooksie pretty well. So it's kinda based off Ozy and and Ryu hitting their ceiling as much as possible. And I just I don't think that's a that's a winning recipe. And it's clearly not something that's being realized at the moment. So they're gonna have a tough time. And like I said, I don't think the coaching change of Neo moves the needle at all. I th I think this team is kinda just gonna be stuck in limbo of Every once in a while there's gonna be a game where the pieces fall into place and everyone has one of those games where things fall into their lap and it's gonna look good, but it's never gonna last through an entire tournament run.
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean the glass out full, I guess, for them is just like Yabby did look really good. right now. I mean no, I'm just I'm just trying to actually like they did make it to the land. Like I mean I don't know. Like for what we have right now, they're true. They weren't like impressive wins. I'm not gonna like over like I'm not gonna overdo it. But I'm just saying at least Yabby actually probably looked the best that he's looked with this roster. The biggest glaring issue in terms of individual level is Fozy. ⁓ which is where, you know, I think we're Think most people expected Fozy or Ryu to get moved in some fashion if they had if you had to pick. ⁓ Well, ex that's what I was gonna s and this is back to what I was saying before is you know, you just kinda like look around and you're just like, Well, we can't do the example.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's the gamble or it's a lateral move essentially in the alt market it feels like right now.
speaker-0: Yeah. And you're just hoping you hit. And I just think for Astralisons, they had a little bit of success and they don't really think I would imagine the idea is that if you gamble it, even if you hit big, unless you hit the biggest or really big on the opera, you're not really gonna be moving one way or the other from like where you currently are. ⁓ not even like even if it's an upgrade. Like even if you saw this opera and you're like, Wow, this is a immediate upgrade over Fozy, you're not really getting into that like Big boy conversations still. Like you're still gonna be like, all right, what about Ryu? And then like, how is Hooksey's calling developing the other players? Whatever, blah, blah, blah. But that's why I said they kind of did the opposite of G2, where you and I we all talked last time, and I said, like, yeah, so we can talk about G2 now and have fun with this. Like I felt like they were just gambling to see if they could get a higher peak because they felt like they were close. I think G2 actually felt like they were close to being in that conversation for these top teams of like running it. But then Some pious wasn't really able to get them there and was saw being his coach for so long. Maybe just this realization of like, well, that's not really the solution. Wrinkle ain't it either, probably, but I think that was just a gamble.
speaker-1: I still feel like S ⁓ Sun Pius got got a bad rap there. Like I I still feel like
speaker-0: I I I think I think you're right. I just think that that's why G2 did it. Like that's all. I ⁓ I actually think that some pies got
speaker-2: But it's like obvious that Wrinkle just isn't worth the game.
speaker-0: Yeah, well I mean it's two games though, it's only online, that's what I heard. So like we can't do that. We have to wait. It's wrinkle of two game, right? Like I mean ⁓
speaker-2: I've seen more of Rink all than other teams.
speaker-0: Your time on NIP No, it doesn't count. It doesn't count. It's NIP. It's NIP. I I don't no, I'm with like it was definitely really bad. Like I honestly it wasn't very fun to watch Wrinkle. But that whole G two roster looked really bad. Theirs looks like absolute buns. I mean like I I wanna like
speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, it's really sad.
speaker-0: I it like there's no nice way of putting it. I don't like shitting on players. Holy fuck, you were looking rough.
speaker-2: Liquid pulled off the finesse move, man. Yeah.
speaker-1: One mark against liquid off the board, please. One one mark removed.
speaker-0: How many total do we have those? So I just ⁓
speaker-1: Like twenty nine or something like that.
speaker-0: Okay. Alright. I was just curious. no man. Like I the it felt like okay, gamble the opera, see if it hits bigger, give Nertz a second to see if he can find form, but holy shit he looks so bad. ⁓ my god. Like the he looks so bad, I would actually argue you can't even judge Wrinkle because everybody like on G2, they actually look so fucking bad.
speaker-2: We cannot judge Rick all because I mean yeah, heavy guard's not doesn't have too many bad games. I'm sure he'll bounce back on.
speaker-0: He does it but still like t I'm just saying the whole unit came out and it was just like
speaker-2: They look like turd coming out.
speaker-1: It's just the first game's back from the break, everyone's a little bit rusty, everyone's kinda
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-2: Yeah, that's fair enough.
speaker-1: I haven't said anything bad about Wrinkle. You can go back and check the tape. I haven't said a single I haven't had a single knock against Wrinkle.
speaker-0: Fucking again? When do you turn
speaker-2: Yeah, you like that shit? ⁓
speaker-0: Jackson Moses O'Toole birthday.
speaker-1: January. Capricorn baby
speaker-2: It was it was during Flomlin. Celebrated his thirty ninth birthday at Flomlin.
speaker-0: Did you are you forty? Are you if we Okay, yeah, so you're running okay. With killer forty, first as
speaker-2: That's what we're
speaker-1: With tequila. Yeah, free from the bar. Lovely people
speaker-0: What's the analysis of G tier? We're just chalking it up to some pious was ⁓ got it got you know, got removed too early and there's like buttons and online CS doesn't count. Is that
speaker-1: Dude I don't know. I'd l I'd love to ask Saul about this nerd or the Sumpaius Wrinkle thing going on for sure at some point down the road. 'Cause at the moment my only explanation is that it feels like they wanted to get rid of Sumpaius, which which also feels a little bit crazy to me. Like but if the if the if the person coming in is Wrinkle, it makes me feel like you you just really thought that this guy wasn't gonna get you much more than you were than you were getting at that point. So I don't know. I dunno again, nothing is nothing has changed my opinion on G two. I still think they're very much the same team that we saw towards towards the end of the year. ⁓ although
speaker-2: Personally.
speaker-1: I have a little bit less faith in Wrinkle than I do Sun Pius to be able to deliver in the big game, so whatever you want to take from that, you can take from that.
speaker-2: Yeah, I would agree. ⁓ I also I think just bluntly, I just don't really care that much about this blast tournament, to be honest. Like I think it's but as we highlighted, just the amount of online game. You know, I will care about it a lot more if I was commentating that event right now. ⁓ but you know, looking look
speaker-0: They didn't hire you guys, so fair. Yeah.
speaker-1: Well, this is a great pitch to get hired for the next one. That's for f Send them the send them the re I almost said it, I had to adjust.
speaker-2: The reason I don't care about this blast event is because it's not Blast Porto, which is their upcoming event, which is gonna be the greatest event of all time out of Portugal. We're gonna really look forward to that one. ⁓ but you know, looking at the the online stage of the event, it's just such a brutal format as well. Like you lose a game, you slip up, first game out of the break, it's online, you're out of there straight away, pretty early on in the competition, it's just disaster mode. So I don't I actually kind of like the way It's set up though for Blast because you get to see all these new rosters that I'm actually more interested in watching at the moment. I don't really care about watching Vitality, Falcons, Spirit all play each other at Blast Bounty Molto. I'd far rather watch FaZe. I'd rather watch ⁓ the these teams come up, Liquid, seeing how these teams are performing, getting more eyes on the new rosters. That's actually more interesting to me ⁓ in that respect. So I think Blast have actually got an interesting product being at that first event of the season where you are excited to see the roster moves. ⁓ and then going into the Esports World Cup, that's where you actually start to think about, you know, the bigger teams again down the line. But ⁓ for me I I'm actually enjoying the fact that a lot of the underdog teams made it into the the LAN event 'cause that's that's actually the only teams I'm actually interested in watching right now for this event.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, it's actual moves. Yeah. Yeah. I I like the event because ⁓ I think going straight into like a LAN, you know, I think you know, Jason I think said it. We'll check the tape, but I think he said all teams play twenty percent worse online. I think that's what he said. But scientific.
speaker-1: It's actually Twenty percent.
speaker-0: But my fucking fucked up. I just think that I'd be curious to see how much of that is online or maybe just coming out of the break. And that's why I actually kind of like the format too, is because I just think if we went straight into like a cologne type event. Well not cologne, but just, you know, like something where there's a big group stage, it's all Ya yeah, it just kinda I feel like it wouldn't
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: I don't like it as much.
speaker-2: Blass have kind of been the buffer every s time we start the season though. Like b blasts have been the buffer every time. Like if you think about it, huh most of the years recently have been starting with, you know, you get a blast group stage, you know, that was the event, Vitality Lost, then they won Katowica and went on to win every other event on the lead up to the major. It's like you get one warm up event where blasts get the date they get the sort of trumpets out, they get all the parade of like here's our new rosters that are coming into the season Counter strike's back and it's starting with blasts, but it the p the trade off is it's not you're not getting the best counter strike. and then the second event of the season is usually ⁓ like a championship level event. ⁓ so I think that's ⁓ I actually like it. I like how it works.
speaker-0: I like the warm up. That's what I'm saying. I just you know, it's like ⁓ you'll understand Dinko as you get older. This is like stretching before you lift. This is what this is. Yeah. This is a this is a good stretch and honestly it makes me feel better going to the next event 'cause now I can kind of like have some fun storylines that might not mean as much, but like it's something to kind of build nicely into the next one where if this were just like going right into it, I'd be maybe overanalyzing what's going on a little too much. I'd be giving it too much weight for the first event. 'Cause like it's all it's still on land and like it'll matter and all that stuff. Not that bounty doesn't matter, but it's just like actually a great way to start.
speaker-2: I think it's perfect way to start the season.
speaker-1: I'm still mentally on vacation, you know. Counter Strike's on the second screen, but it's not like a religious, you know, feature the way it is when the season is in full swing. I'm not ⁓
speaker-2: Or when you cast
speaker-1: I'm just kinda hanging out, get it back the the words running through my brain, the gunfire, all that kind of stuff, just getting back into the mood. July thirtieth is when the playoffs start for Blast. That's when my season that's when vacation
speaker-0: Alright, Unc. Alright. Okay.
speaker-2: That's when he's gonna in inch that liquid chair ever closer to the dust.
speaker-0: Yeah, it's gonna get a little bit closer than it's gonna just get s closer and closer and closer.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: Yeah, well getting closer and closer is the the World Cup, the Esports World Cup. And I I'm looking forward to that. Like honestly, we're actually gonna ⁓ that's not an L shit. We'll possibly know, ⁓ we could possibly be in attendance of the event. ⁓
speaker-0: Jason and Dinko absolutely love that that event. It'll be a the great it'll great way to get into it.
speaker-1: really sick that week. That that one week, like August like fi fifteenth, I'm getting really ill.
speaker-0: I hope not.
speaker-2: But ⁓ it's gonna it's gonna be r ⁓ good counter strike ⁓ because the format's actually good now. Like Esports World Cup format used to be really bad. But I think now it's ⁓ more interesting, it's like bigger teams, prize pools even bigger. ⁓ Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: The format was shit. What are you gonna what the fuck, Jason? What do you mean?
speaker-1: Fucking awesome dude. I just like different formats. Why do I I don't want to watch Swiss system every event we go to. I don't
speaker-0: I don't need to be Swiss. I just don't want it to be whatever that monstrosity was. Okay. I just ⁓ I I don't I don't need that. I don't need that. It's better.
speaker-1: I wanna bring back the format where we had like each team had three lives and you gotta like challenge the team to like a B O one. That was fun.
speaker-0: I know.
speaker-1: That's actually the worst take I've heard ever in any situation.
speaker-0: I know. Never. I love Best of Twos. It's so great. But it's so bad for everything.
speaker-2: I remember watching Best of Two in like ESL pro league seasons.
speaker-0: ⁓ dude, I had to play I had to play best of twos. I was still playing professionally when there was BO twos. I remember King's
speaker-2: You could just stop with what's the point of a show match.
speaker-0: Yeah, exactly.
speaker-2: Who did that? Of course you were cast.
speaker-1: I think I think it was an ESL one back in the day.
speaker-2: Speaking of speaking of show matches, I I have got one in mind, Jason, that you might like. So show matches have always been bad. So I think we go out there and we bring in we really embrace how bad show matches are and how no one wants to watch them. And we bring out Nip versus and we make it a show match. The war and we advertise it the worst game of Counter Strike you'll ever. Bringing back the old classico.
speaker-1: Selling point. Back the lineups.
speaker-0: ⁓ we have something. I do it with another creator. We call it Silvercast. We actually get certified silvers and we give ⁓ full production and we watch them play. I don't know if you guys ever caught that. It's so much fun. I wanted to bring that to I wanted to bring that to the land for the show match at one point. It's a little hard logistically right now, but it's in the works. So flying off. Honestly, that won't be as bad as I don't know if you're certified silver, but maybe you could coach. We could maybe make you you guys coach. Get in there, maybe. Yeah. Jason volunteered you. Notice how he didn't want to step up. He
speaker-2: He's already coached silvers. ⁓ man. ⁓
speaker-0: And the chair just slowly moves further back after he says touch his
speaker-2: In fact, someone from Liquid will go and f physically remove that.
speaker-1: No, they love me over there. I don't know, probably not, but I just
speaker-0: Do they?
speaker-2: Some people do.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: I operate in this world assuming everybody loves me and I just see where things go. You know
speaker-2: Everybody does love you.
speaker-1: I don't know
speaker-0: Now we're just glazing it. Do we have anything else besides just glazing? No
speaker-1: It's weirdly the funniest thing about this is maybe like a week or two ago we're like, Hey, ⁓ knock knock anyone home at the podcast, we want to do an episode, and Flum says, No, I want a few more roster changes to come into the mix. And that was after like eighty percent of the roster changes had occurred. So now we've got to an episode. The roster changes have all been discussed at length for like two weeks, and we have nothing to discuss now.
speaker-0: No, I like ours better though. I like this more because Loki like Dinko said, the roster moves were kinda poo, let's be honest. They weren't super we they weren't like the blockbuster move is two players going to a team we won't see. What the hell did you say mate?
speaker-2: You know what the thing You said glazing glazing Jason, and you know most most of the time people are actually insulting Jason. So I I think that's just a bit of a phase. And ⁓ we haven't spoken about phase yet. So let's ⁓ let's talk about J Belly.
speaker-0: Well yeah, it's true. We actually didn't. Actually, that's actually a good point. This is a Joe Biden is crazy, dude.
speaker-1: Dude, that is the best part about this roster change. Is Joe Biden and Netanyahu on the other side. That's the funniest shit. We're getting this fucking podcast demonetized. I tune into HLTV forum posts. Biden and Netanyahu on phase are awesome. And I'm like, what the f what fucking alternate reality have I
speaker-2: Joe Biden.
speaker-0: ⁓ We're so back, bro. We're so back. Solving Counter Strike and the world all at once. It's incredible. It's no, okay, but Jabowan actually Holy shit. It's like the same thing as watching Jorko in like Liquid. It's like, wow, there's so this is what it looks like when this roster has an opera that shoots somebody. Like it's that's actually the bar. It's like sorry, but that is like you shot some like holy shit.
speaker-2: Shell TV4.
speaker-1: Ultimate brokey, you did not get to the fair minimum. You you did not meet that bare minimum requirement.
speaker-0: It's so fucked. Brokey, you were great once upon a time. I'm sorry whatever happened to you. I hate dunking on you, but like god damn, like that is the bar right now from Vaze. And ultimate, you're probably gonna do better than you did in Liquid, but holy shit, were you awful towards the end? And it's just like yeah, for every offer coming in, that is
speaker-2: Actually turns out to be a god. Like that if the if we live in that world where Ultimate goes to another team and it's just like a sick op or I don't know, we need a
speaker-0: Like The rosters to be to struggle in. Phase for different reasons because of how they played previously with Kerrigan. I just think that once you start to lose yourself individually, it becomes like ⁓ there's no way to really bail you out. And I think with Ultimate, it he was still inexperienced. That's like his first roster is like that liquid team, right? At Tier One. And that team was not stable, like in any way. So for him to have any shortcomings as an individual player, it's just not gonna be a good situation for him to bail himself out of or like really grow in. You just kinda get thrown to the wolves and if you can't pull yourself out of it, you're just kinda doomed. So I just like to say that 'cause honestly I do feel bad whenever I ⁓ the you know talk about the bare minimum. But that is the bare minimum. Back to that. So Jaboan is actually shooting people with the AWP. And it's ⁓ it's absolutely beautiful to watch, man. He's really fun to watch play. Like he I like watching him play because he reminds me in a lot of ways of a slightly No, no, no, no. Yeah. Like a device. He r he gives me he likes to be quite mobile, but also he doesn't force things. So he will he has no problem kind of like saying, Hey, this is where I'm gonna be and I'm moving around a lot in the round and not necessarily running at you and I know what I'm gonna get in the situation and if you give it to me, I will not miss. And I really like that. Like that's like ⁓ it's just a really nice care. Characteristic to having your oper somebody that's just very confident in the move that they're making and they're willing to move around, but not necessarily like take the full round into their hands, which is kind of nice. and that's been the the revelation for me for FaZe. And I think twist side yelling again, I I never liked it in Liquid because felt like it was out of necessity, even if you wanted to do it. And then my biggest gripe is twist side yelling on liquid always meant that. Twist is no longer fragging on Liquid the same way. I don't care what anybody says about who's doing it like Xercian or maybe on Mouse. Don't care. Twist became the IGL. Sure. But Twist didn't have twist when he's IGLing, but now in phase he has frozen. And now in phase you have frozen, and now you have a competent, hopefully, Opera that can continue to grow. And I think that
speaker-2: Until the last week is a god.
speaker-0: Also Jacob getting a full reset as well. Back to the broki situation where like I just feel like that was the worst roster if you're a rookie. Like these situations are just terrible, man. Like if you were if this were like a traditional sport and you saw the turmoil going on with these rosters and you saw a rookie come into it, you'd absolutely like what might happen is they get cut, but then immediately picked up by like another team because everybody's just like, Well, we'll take a chance on them and see what happens. But in CS, like, might as well now that it's like new IGL, whole like basically brand new team. Give them some time again because really, not to say it didn't count, but that just was a terrible situation for you as a rookie to come into and actually show what you're capable of on any consistent level. Because the team wasn't consistent. Nothing in that team, the elements around it, the play in the server, nothing was consistent. How the hell are you supposed to perform if you're not Donk or Zaiwoo in that scenario as a rookie? Like you're just not going to. And that that's my expectation of these players. And that's why it's fun to see them kind of build themselves back up again. It's really fun.
speaker-1: Would you say this is kind of like the this is this is kind of like the the deciding moment for Twist as an IGL? Like how many more times do we entertain the conversation of Twist as an IGL if this struggles? 'Cause he's now had what the the liquid stint where he kind of took it when Yukinder stepped down and then he sort of had the liquid stint where he sort of stepped up to the plate and kind of like announced that he was taking it and then he goes to phase and now he's taking it from Kerrigan. And now he's the IGL as these roster decisions are made, so it's kind of be built with him and ⁓ as IGL in mind. But you'd say this is the one that is like kind of the final determination of whether he can do it or not. You've now had the requisite experience. You've now had a couple different lineups.
speaker-2: And you have no expectations.
speaker-1: This is the one where you have to prove that you can do it, right?
speaker-0: Hmm. I that's actually a really good way to frame it, I'm thinking. ⁓ I don't know.
speaker-2: I think he's so young that it's hard to say like forever.
speaker-0: That's what I supposed he's still 26. That's like my like when you asked me something definitively like that, I'm like, it's hard. I well here's the fossil question. No, no, but actually what I have the answer. I think like this would be like the most telling version of the twist IGL story. Like, like you said, it kind of maybe he manifested it, maybe he was like part of the problem that created those issues. Who knows? Like, we don't really know a hundred percent what's going on there, but it kind of always fell to him, and it's still here, but I feel like this is more his team. than any other situation has been where ⁓ maybe that liquid roster, but that was still such a shit show. ⁓ yeah, I think this is like gonna be the maybe not the last stint, but I feel like the most telling version of twist IGLing. I think this is where we get to actually see is this like is is this his path forward or is this just something that keeps happening because maybe his own personality type where he ha he likes a secondary IGL and it just keeps happening that way. Or Maybe it's more so just he needs to realize that it just doesn't work out with him doing that and focus on the fragging. This will for sure like let us know, right? Like I I don't I can't think of an excuse, I guess, at this point, ⁓ if he doesn't perform IGLing. So I'd say yeah. The this will be kind of the last IGL sent for twist. At least for this.
speaker-1: If this goes south, do you think he's still gonna have value? Or even if it even if it goes okay, do you think he's still gonna have value after this IGL sin is just a standard rifler?
speaker-2: Yes.
speaker-0: Yeah, he's obviously yeah. Yeah. I think I think somebody would at least take a chance on him. There's no re that you'd be stupid not to. Like
speaker-1: He's okay.
speaker-2: Dude, I was I even th when FaZe were not performing, like the amount of games you would see Twist still popping off and like doing what he could. I feel like honestly he's just him and Frozen are just such a great combo of riflers that I just when you look at this other like sort of combo around FaZe, that's why I'm so excited to say Jabo and actually be a solid player. Is because I you don't want to see years or even ⁓ months being wasted. Of the talent level of Frozen and and Twists. Like they're just incredible players. So to waste any time of those players in their career is such a travesty. ⁓ so I think Fays need to figure it out as quickly as possible and hopefully these moves do pay off down the line because twist is I think gonna be a very important rifler just with the experience that he brings, even into the later stages of his career. Like even if his performance drops off, like If he can just adapt into more supportive element roles as well in the side of the teams, just the amount of experience, like how many trophies he's won, how many events, how many different teams he's been a part of, how many different team cultures, like th he's a very valuable asset, ⁓ that will always be worth picking up, I think. ⁓ until until unless something like what happened to Electronic happens, where it's like he becomes such an obvious toxic asset to the team where he goes into the team and it dies within a few seconds. I feel like ⁓ with with twists, it's like there's so much Upside to keeping him around, whether it's in the server or outside of the server, and right now it's so much upside inside the server as well.
speaker-0: When he's twenty six and frozen's twenty four. So like that's like that's yeah, that was probably the hardest part about Jason's framework for me, is I just I probably like this will be the biggest judgment of the IGL, but it's like ⁓ do I also think that maybe somebody if he wants to, if he like left phase, he'd probably still get another shot. So there we'll probably still be talking about it. So it's kind of like a weird in my head, I'm like, Well, does it really matter? ⁓ but I do think like I agree with Dinko. I think this has gotta be the window, right? Like this is just you have like if you're phase, that's why it's a little frustrating. to see the rookies in there, but also really exciting that they've shown that they're doing well is you have Twists and Frozen. Like he's like Frozen, the amount of experience he has. Frozen hasn't had a lot of success winning though. Or like a lot of as as like as much success as Twist. Twist has had a ton of success when you look at like how much he's done in the game. But there's still a twenty six year old and a twenty four year old. For in terms of the experience that they carry to their age, it's actually insane when you think about it. But that's why it feels like this team is kind of at least for me, I feel like it's almost like win now, right? Like they need to win right now because frozen is
speaker-1: I hope this isn't a win now lineup. Holy fuck, they're in trouble if this is win now.
speaker-0: But but it's that's ⁓ that's a conflicting part of my brain. Technic ⁓
speaker-2: So exactly. So like they don't even have stability right now on the roster.
speaker-0: That but that's that weird like conflict that I have in my head is I have a I have two veterans who are literally like one of them has won multiple grand slams with different teams and like been a major winner. The other one wants to do all of those things and has been on successful rosters and is one of the best riflers. And then we have three rookies and then like well, okay, two two and a half, whatever you want to say with Jacob, but like the you have like these newer players in there where they're showing glimpses of being good and it just kind of baits me into thinking I'm like, ⁓ maybe they can be like one of the top teams right now. They're not. Like I I'm not fucking losing my mind, but it's ⁓
speaker-2: I think they missed out on chances as well. Like from like Gizmy could have been a good move as well. Like if you if you're going to back Twist as an in-game leader, okay. But like the the sign that they didn't go out at least publicly and we've seen like any rumors of like other IGLs trying to come to FaZe shows that they really do want to either they don't actually know what's happening with FaZe long term or there's just like, Okay, well Twist, you are going to Inblique, we actually don't know its direction to go in right now, we're just gonna back you.
speaker-0: It's because of Frozen? You think sorry to cut you off? Just curious. Do you think it's because of Frozen? Because honestly, if I'm Faye's management, the biggest asset I had, in my opinion, was Frozen. And you didn't hear about any IGL coming in. Do you think that's influence? Like, I'm doing whatever I can to make Frozen be like how what keeps you here? Because if he goes and it was just twist there, it doesn't matter what happens next. That that that's dead, right? Yeah, it's dead. So I'm just wondering, do you guys think maybe
speaker-1: That's over.
speaker-0: Frozen's getting a little bit more say and it's less like some big management thing and more so frozen going like I trust twists and I wanna keep playing with twist kind of thing.
speaker-1: I'm one hundred percent ignorant to everything that happened behind closed doors, but I will say this. Frozen doesn't strike me as that kind of personality and person to like step into an office and really like flex that sort of power over over the roster. But who knows if he feels like it's gonna negatively impact his career? ⁓ sure. Even if they ask him and even if he said twists, like maybe if that happens, sure. Okay. Like whatever. You you're gonna listen to Frozen fair play. I think I think what's more likely is They probably thought about it to some degree to some extent and looked at twists and said who are the other IGLs they could've gone to get. Gizmy was one, but he was a very late revelation. Like his name wasn't even on the radar going into the major. It kinda
speaker-2: Another one shui but it's like or kicks out.
speaker-1: Shuey or Kixon would have been the other two names out there. And I think, you know, if you're giving me the choice between twists and shoey, ⁓ I to me that I mean Twist and ⁓ and Kixon, I think that that's like a little bit lateral. Like that's not a huge increase, is it? Like if you take Kixon over Twist as an IGL, that's not Like it feels like it's an improvement. An improvement on paper that wouldn't necessarily be realized in results, you know? He is like a true IGL, so in that sense you feel like it's an improvement. and I think that at that point you just go to twist and it's like, do you want to do this? Like it it's up to you, you know? And I think he probably said, Yeah, fuck it.
speaker-2: Yeah, I just I just feel like if I'm gonna be frustrated with FaZe this season. I just have a feeling like I just have a feeling we're just gonna be frustrated with them on I hate watching great players
speaker-1: Okay, we both.
speaker-2: No no no but I I have no example. Yeah, the the frustrating part is like I don't have any expectations of FaZe and that is the sad part. Like I want to have expectations of FaZe. They have they have two great players. They've got Frozen, they've got Twists, and these are players I don't want to see waste time ⁓ inside of the server. And I feel like I'm f ⁓ this roster, I feel like it's gonna be a waste of time. Like I feel
speaker-0: Phase is just European liquid, dude. I'm telling you, the Europeans are so used to this. So that's why you're so you you know how to handle the
speaker-2: Exactly.
speaker-1: I don't know. Twist twist is probably pretty used to it at this point.
speaker-2: Yeah, he went, Holy shit, I went from blue liquid to red liquid, right?
speaker-0: I'm telling you, man, that's like it it feels there's so many parallels I feel like at this point in terms of like what's going on. It's kinda crazy.
speaker-1: Here's a question, since we just stumbled upon it, since we now have this little bit of a tendency, how much would you would you look at this and say there's something going on with twists?
speaker-0: ⁓ absolutely. I've thought that for a little while, but it's also it's a it ⁓ it's absolutely impossible to ignore his success. That's like there there's like this weird feeling of like it it does feel like problems sometimes gravitate towards him, but people said the same thing about Alege where I just think in Counter Strike i in a game and in a ⁓ competitive scene where you are around other individuals as much as you are in CS on your team. That conflict is bound to like happen a bit more. And if you don't have like the right fit of personalities, it's not even that like one personality is like it's not always twist fault. It's just the combination of like who you put with twist doesn't work. And in the combination you put with Legion certain times doesn't work. Or like or the combination and it's not, you we're using NA players as examples. That's who I'm more familiar with. But there's definitely plenty of examples of this with European players as well, where you just see them, it's like, well, is it are they toxic? Are they, you know, it Like people just have we people have such a bad time, I think, like because we don't know what goes on behind closed doors, I think describing things. I just think that yes, like I think that he probably has a certain personality type that some people either work with or they don't. And I think that's very common with a lot of successful players, especially because find a way to win.
speaker-2: Confident, capable individuals. If you pla if you pair them with other confident, capable individuals, that's where they thrive. If you put put them in a team where it's just like young rookies with no confidence, shying away from big moments, shying away from making the play, that's where it all crumbles. It's like what happened when Grimm came into Team Liquid? It fell apart because he didn't come in with that confidence. He had the capabilities, but he didn't bring it all at the server, right? So it's like you put f twists in a roster like FaZe back in the day, it's like every single one of those players are so confident and capable and inside of the server, inside of the comms, and that's where players like Twist respect the individuals around them. And then Aligi's it gotta be the same thing. I mean you like that liquid team he went to was absolutely terrible in terms of like the competence level of some of the other players on his team. And I'm sure if you're a great player, it's like you're just looking around you're like, I can't believe I have to hold it together for the sake of this team. Like I'm getting paid to be on this team. I am a teammate of these players, but you know that you want someone different playing beside you. And you would just want them to be much more capable, much more confident and like stick their elbows out and fit in a little bit. And I I do feel like that is something that, you know, if if if Tw twist gets a team like that, I would I would say that he would just be fine.
speaker-1: Fuck that shit, dude. Fuck that shit. No, 'cause it's ⁓ 'cause I I understand that mentality and I I think that I think you're dead on. I think that's a mentality a lot of players have, but I fucking hate that mentality so much. I I despise it with every fiber in my body 'cause I sit there and I'm like it's like is this gonna be better or worse with you having this mentality in this situation? You like you know what I mean? Like yeah, maybe maybe you're right. But you being miserable and making everything miserable and making everything around you miserable because you're not happy with this means it's definitely not gonna fucking work and it's definitely just gonna get worse. So you might as I mean n then you just start do start to sound like the fucking boomer coach, but it is like a certain element of like I I am. It's like stopping being so frustrated that you can't even operate at the task at hand. Like your job your job is not playing video games, your job is to make this team better.
speaker-0: Say you're having flashbacks.
speaker-1: But my So it is now time to change the mentality and philosophy to say here is my task at hand is instead of bitching about this stuff, is improve him as much as I fucking can at this point.
speaker-2: My point my my counter well, I would say that you're absolutely right, and I don't think we can disagree on that. The only thing is when you look at moments throughout counter strike history, the question is, is that mentality even possible to develop if you have it naturally? Because or are these players burdened with having incredible individual skill and capabilities, but are they burdened with the fact that because of their mindset that they're locked in, they're only going to have patches of success? I mean you look at Elige what he had one patch of success that team Liquid Raw said that when it all comes together, when it is perfect, when it is that environment, they're gonna go and they're gonna be unstoppable for a period of time. You look at simple, I mean he's the same thing. Like he's endless teams where he's just looked around his teammates and just been like, Why is everybody so shit? I mean and then he gets that Navi team that are actually good for a patch of form and they win, but they don't win enough. Whereas Kerrigan is like the opposite mentality. He's like he can work with whatever he's got and that's why he's won so many with so many different players. And and I just feel like this ⁓ This lightning the bottle moment for these players is gonna be the the burden and th the curse that they've got is like their skill is so high, but you're not going to always have that. Like the you're not going to have the perfect coalescence of these individual players all coming together and so you are going to be given just one major title when you should have a multiple or go on these runs.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean it's ⁓ Flum Flum mentioned it earlier, hit it on the head, I think. ⁓ it's a it's a lot with players who especially as you mentioned have success. Once you have to like rebuild from success, once like you kind of have success and then like hit rock bottom or go back to the bottom of the mountain, have to build back up. I think sometimes players forget how much they had to work and how much of a slog it was to get to that point initially, like you looking back You only really remember the rosy moments. You only really remember and say, like, this was always gonna happen because this is the way I did my job and this is the way I worked and this is the way I got there. So if I do it again, it's gonna come back to us and then it's not coming back as fast as you might expect. And I think that's a lot of the frustration that comes out that that players that have had success in the past struggle to to deal with. It is it is a mentality thing, a hundred percent.
speaker-0: Sure. Yeah, so to bring it back around to twists, like yeah, I I do think like a part of it is I think it is part of him, but like it's ⁓ it's always a tricky thing, especially when you start talking about this like outside of like us three, or like where you get to larger group discussions is people that haven't been in competitive environments to that level of any kind, or even 'cause you don't necessarily need to be like I'm not saying you need to won tons of things, but just been in a really high end competitive environment.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: You start to realize that that's just what happens and how like it's not necessarily personal. I think where a lot of people, especially ⁓ these days, people get like lost in things is people can have conflict without it being on some deep personal level where in reality it's frustration from the competitive environment and the competitive situation that you're in with this other person. Happens at the magic
speaker-2: Table every night, Jason. It's not personal.
speaker-0: That's why magic's a great learning tool. But it's not to me. It's this Okay. I just think that happens with yes, the the successful players, when you are twists and you've won multiple grand slams and you've won a major, I think that when you just like you guys were describing, you look around, certain things are happening that you just don't think should be happening anymore. But you're not where you once were when you were winning those things, and you have to remember that and learn how to
speaker-2: He holds a grudge.
speaker-0: Basically build yourself back up again to where you previously were, while simultaneously kind of having that edge of like already being there. And that's also why, you know, you mentioned those different teams, Dinko, and that's why when you see their era end, you usually you don't ever see the it's not like we see them come back. That's why their errors, that's why everybody wants to try to predict one and call one out when they see one because you know it's a fleeting thing. It's not coming back because you'll then need a new assembly of players. And you know There's one player, you know, we're talking about like conflict with teammates and and see and rebuilding themselves. There's one player that's really an anomaly in this situation, and that is Rops. And that's because he saw what was happening with FaZe for six months, and they tried to keep signing him, and he knew that wasn't the right roster. And he knew exactly what Vitality needed and he could pinpoint it. So I wanted to just give him a shout out because I ⁓ maybe he didn't predict an error or like whatever was going on with Vitality, but he could identify what we're all describing, like in a way. Like it's it's quite interesting that we like Rops is probably one of the few players that has it been able to move that quickly and immediately find success, I'd say like multiple times.
speaker-2: Yeah, and and Carrigan as well. I think
speaker-1: Boys, really quick, sorry, I gotta the plumbers just pulled up here. I gotta step downstairs real quick.
speaker-0: That's okay. We're good. We got it from here. Yeah.
speaker-2: I think I think ⁓ you add in Karrigan into that conversation as well. Kerrigan Robs, two very special players and ⁓ I'd even say Nico, like is a little bit like that. Like he's had to rebuild rosters and be a part of and having to like go look like he's going to have it all and then be humbled and have to rebuild and bring in like how many i IGLs did he have to have in his teams that you're like, ⁓ these aren't these aren't gonna be the well how
speaker-0: Maybe, but some of those IGOs were you know, there was an Alexi B at there that wasn't I would say all that bad. ⁓
speaker-2: ⁓ no true, he de he definitely had some great ones. We also had Neo actually as the in game leader in his phase team, so then he was Nico Nico the IGL himself. ⁓ which wasn't great. But ⁓ he's got his major now, so there we go. Falcon's kind of falling off though. ⁓ that that one online loss.
speaker-0: I don't know. ⁓ Yeah, that's ⁓ it's all Doomer now, now that they lost their one online suit.
speaker-2: I'm kind of excited because like all the good teams apart from well Spirit didn't even play that great. All the good teams played bad and that's actually made me kind of really excited for going into the World Cup. It's like okay, we're all they're still all on an even playing field. Like everyone underperformed. It still has it feels like C the C S season still hasn't started yet. ⁓ and I think is a nice little build up.
speaker-0: Well, it's you had those teams that were like ⁓ you had the teams that were just like making the moves, right? They're making the moves and they're looking half decent and then the teams that kinda stayed the same or the top dogs that were successful kind of had a nice little dip. And I think ⁓ I think I think you're right. I think the World Cup, the East Esports World Cup, ⁓ will also be a really nice way to kind of segue from the bounty, especially with it being a better format than last time. And I heard they'll have some great casters there. I'm not sure who
speaker-2: Yeah, potentially, potentially gonna be there. ⁓ maybe like Flomland as well, potentially. ⁓
speaker-0: Potentially maybe. Potentially, maybe. You know, I heard those teams are I think actually did I announce them yet? You know, before well it Chris, did we announce it? Or like an hour or two that we'll be announcing the teams that'll be there. Actually, I could say what they are now, so I could that that's kind of fun. Cause you know, not that you wouldn't know, but like you could know, which is ⁓ let me see. Let me let me get the full list right here for you. But the teams are ba ba ba we're
speaker-2: That's gonna be fun.
speaker-0: Where is it? Where is it? I'm stupid and scrolling and I did too much of this stuff earlier today. Yeah, it'd be ⁓ eighty, Liquid, Energy, Voka, Wildcard, Chicken Coop for the NA teams, and then it'll be Dandele, who you just saw. ⁓ and it'll be Bestia. So
speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah, that should be a lot of fun. Okay, that's a great teams. Cool to see Liquid ⁓ coming as well. That's gonna be sick. That'll be a lot of fun.
speaker-0: Bit bittersweet to have liquid at my event. We'll just put it like that. It's a bit bittersweet.
speaker-2: Yeah, well hopefully the you know we we've been d nice to them on this episode. It's gonna be it's not gonna be awkward in person. It's gonna be great. Everyone's gonna be
speaker-0: I I rip into them all the time and when I talked with John one on one, he knows where it's coming from. That man is
speaker-2: I mean I I think the thing about Liquid is like everyone was kind of like, Yeah, fair enough, like we are pretty pretty bad right now. Like the they're they're not ⁓ trying to kid themselves. ⁓ so I'm happy that they actually got a little bit of a better performance coming up. I wonder what plumbing problem Jason has. Is it like a flood down there, do you reckon?
speaker-0: Honestly, I always thought Jason was the plumber, but like now I'm just kinda confused to be honest.
speaker-2: Soon as many things, yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, so many roles. But we won't wait for him to wrap it back up 'cause that'll be an incredibly long podcast. ⁓ this guy could be gone forever. He's
speaker-2: I think we should start the next episode with him finally going back up the stairs.
speaker-0: Just yeah, we start and he just comes up the trolling stairs, that'd be yes, that'd be incredible.
speaker-1: No. No, that was me doing my audio settings. It worked perfectly.
speaker-2: Yeah, great work Jason. I see that you've gone and gotten the Team Liquid chair out of the basement. You're actually like proud of it again, Jason, or
speaker-1: ⁓ it's it's operating up here. It's operating up here at the moment. ⁓ you've seen this office. It's it's I've put it together. My wife came up here and was like this place is a mess, it sucks and she she put a little bit of a womanly touch into how it's
speaker-2: Notice the magic cards aren't in their usual position.
speaker-1: Yep, they've been they've been cleaned up. I've got a new shelving unit in the corner. I've got a new a new ottoman in front of the window. So it's all very nice in here. It's all it's all very ⁓ mostly as a dog bed these days, to be honest with you. Yeah.
speaker-0: I mean the liquid chair is kind of in the corner though, Dinko. It's like fully back yet. Exactly.
speaker-2: It's an honorable role. I know exactly. He might even prioritize sitting in it someday. ⁓
speaker-1: You know what's even better is the liquid chair isn't even gonna be there when this creates corrupt and I'm in I'm in a webcam box, so no one's gonna know what you're talking about.
speaker-0: No, no, no, ⁓ Chris, put it in there. Put it in there. Take my walking pad out, put his liquid chair in. Yeah. We'll get we'll get rolling with the ⁓ the NQ podcast, sponsored by CS Money. Thank you, thank you. There we go. Now that Moses can finally work some audio, Jesus Christ, man.
speaker-1: What the shit?
speaker-0: ⁓ you have all of the problems with audio, right? 'Cause you also just recorded that one episode, right? Talking counter where you just didn't have a microphone and that was
speaker-1: That was like two months ago guys where
speaker-0: I know but I'm just I'm just sensing a theme, Jason.
speaker-2: Jason, if you run a podcast and you and you record an entire episode without realizing the microphone isn't plugged in for I think it kinda deserves to to live on for at least two months.
speaker-0: At least.
speaker-1: Okay, so this is the last one then. So this is the last one? No. Two months. This is two months.
speaker-0: I just say I think longer personally. I think Dinko, you really let him off the hook with that one. I won't be on
speaker-1: By the way, I don't I don't run the podcast, it's a co operated experience. You know what I mean? There's like a triumvirate at the helm of the
speaker-2: So what you're saying is you would say that the workload is shared equally among three people, Jason?
speaker-1: I wish it was, yes, I w yeah I wish ⁓ it was. Yes I
speaker-0: In an ideal world in Jason's ⁓ utopia is is that's how it works. That's just
speaker-1: Hey, to be fair when Flom asked me to do this podcast I was like, I don't have to fucking edit it, do I? And he was like, No and I was like, All right, great, yeah, let's roll.
speaker-2: Just have to pull your mic.
speaker-0: Easiest way to get him in. Do I have to do anything? Nah, just show up and tell you. Okay. But speaking of perfection, this is it. This is my segue. Liquid didn't drop a single map at Blast. And that's where we'll start. That's where we start. We are so back. We're so back, Jason. I figure glass half full first, then we'll get then we'll get Doomer. No? I feel like we got enough p pessimism
speaker-1: No, I can get Doomer right now if you're asking it a little bit.
speaker-2: And I set up the strategy. We're gonna we're gonna really build it up. We're gonna build it up, we're gonna be positive, we're gonna celebrate it, Jason, while we can. And then and then we'll go back to reality.
speaker-1: Yeah, you guys you guys build it up, you guys hype it up.
speaker-2: Okay.
speaker-0: ⁓ shit. Well ⁓ I didn't actually get this.
speaker-2: was awaiting the Team Liquid move ahead of this roster season, change season, right? We wanted JT to come to the team. We're wondering, you know, is he going to to kind of ruin his chance to get a team liquid by trying to bring TC over there? I think we were debating that a lot ⁓ over in the last time we were had this podcast. So I was really happy to see the JT move go through, Shue out. ⁓ but for me it's the the fact that Jorko was performing super well. It's the new opera coming in as well for Team Liquid. And JT activating that all complexity allege ⁓ the way he's performing in in this stage of the competition was fantastic. Now we get to see if he can do it on land, but I mean taking down some big names along the way it is gotta feel good and the fact that it ⁓ it was Vitality Outfurst, that's that's just the best feeling.
speaker-0: No, yeah, see, I liked how he did it. I like that part. Cause yeah, 'cause me, I kinda have to shit on someone else like build up Liquid right now, which is like, holy shit, it really is just that much better when you have an actual opera on the team and an actual IGL. That's right. Shui, I'm sorry. Your time on Liquid doesn't count, but also if he keeps this shit up, I'll be honest. Nurse is definitely keeping up. But no, okay, you know
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: When a leash looks this good,
speaker-0: All jokes aside, I think the the reason why the liquid stuff was so fun is like it was kind of everything you hoped it could be ⁓ immediately, like lightning and bottle type stuff. Like I don't know if I really I'm not gonna sit here and tell you I predict liquid to be like a top five, top ten team now or something. I'm not as much as I would love to build them up right now, but it was as somebody that wants liquid to not be terrible and feels like I'm always yelling at them when we do these, It was nice to see them just basically do what we thought they could do. They realized their potential, but like immediately. You know, people were kind of jumping on me when I was co streaming these games and they're like, It's just a honeymoon phase. I'm like, man, we haven't even had a honeymoon phase with any North American I like, I just wanna win, man. Like I literally you know, I talked with John after they beat Vitality about like thirty or forty minutes. I don't know if you guys caught that at all. ⁓ but I talked with them one on one and we're just snippets, you know. I was just like, yo, did you guys know you guys that was like your best win since like Budapest, where they beat any team, let alone Vitality, top twenty. And he's like, John's like, yeah, that makes sense. We've been terrible. He's like, we've won like five games since like since Budapest. And I'm just, you know. So I I I want to temper my expectations, but also if you're not a liquid fanboy, just understand that anybody that wanted this team to do well. This is ac like it's not just that they beat Vitality, it's just a win, man. Like it's just nice to see things like ⁓ on paper this makes sense. Yada yada yada and then on pa and then in the game it's like that's what we thought like might actually happen 'cause so many times in Liquid it's like on paper, this is kinda cool, this could work. And then it just gets in the server and we're like, they all hate each other. We need a group like therapy session. This team's dead. And it's like the second week of the roster where now this is the opposite. So I mean this is ⁓
speaker-2: Did have a group therapy session with that Cadian team when they went to the beach. Didn't work so
speaker-0: Honestly, they needed more with how that one imploded. They needed more with that roster.
speaker-1: Maybe they never maybe they never need to go back to therapy sessions after that roster imploded.
speaker-0: Yeah, I like this plug, Jason. That's good. That's yeah
speaker-1: yeah, I like the angle. I think the temper expectations angle is important because I actually I actually would counter what you said and say I think they've had a lot of honeymoon periods. I think it's usually I think we get a good amount of honeymoon periods with the liquid lineups over the years, and then by the time the major rolls around, we know it's already dead. Like I think the ultimate coming ultimate coming in and having his pop off was a little bit of a honeymoon period coming in there. Yakinder, when he first joined the team, was like a honeymoon period swing. They had a good cologne there. I think they went to the quarterfinals at that first event that they Yeah.
speaker-0: You remember how long Yakinder was though? Sorry, sorry, bro. You're proving my point, I feel like. Yeah, like you're right. Those when Yakinder first joined, it was great with Liquid and Ultimate was good for like one week, but I'm jumping in. Ultimate was on this roster way too long and Yakinder was like forever ago, man. Like I don't
speaker-1: I know, but the first the first like three months of those lineups was fucking sick. Like Ultimate's first three months was
speaker-0: Jason, because you're still holding on to those wings.
speaker-1: I'm just saying there have been a few honeymoon periods in the past.
speaker-2: If we ⁓ what what do we call a period is there a term for like the happiness you get after a divorce? Because this might be slightly better than the honeymoon period. Probably. So like 'cause the divorce has happened. They finally they've been they've been living with Ultimate for too long. He's like just dragging them down, just always in the house, you know, such a negative energy, you know. They bring in this new young guy, you know, Jorko's in there, he's jerking it up in Team Liquid. Everyone's excited. Y everybody loves getting jorked. And ⁓ I think that's just really reinvigorated Liquid. I think it's even a step beyond honeymoon, Jason.
speaker-0: Host a divorced thriving.
speaker-1: Or ⁓ renewal. ⁓
speaker-0: Renew. This is the renewal period for for I don't know. I Googled this. This is what AI is telling me, sorry guys, this is why we can't afford to ram. Or like like this is just where we're at.
speaker-1: The reason. I think I just think I think look, I think the the angle of JT as being like this Elige whisperer, I think is a little bit too much. Like everyone's so pumped and I'm like that that this doesn't surpr like I don't know. I I I don't think the Allege popping off like that's something I I know what this team is gonna look like when Alleja's having good games. I think the measure of of like the JT whisperer is gonna be like how often do we get it? How often do we get this allege? Is it two games? Is it gonna be like one in every five maps? Is it gonna be
speaker-2: There's gonna be these.
speaker-1: Two out of three maps in a s like how often are we gonna see a liege looking comfortable and confident and playing this well? 'Cause that's the important factor, not that it can happen, because we already know that shit. ⁓ so yeah, I'm I'm just at like I'm at the point where I'm like, I've I've been burned too many times. I like I'm like I'm happy. I'd rather it be this than anything else. But I think I guess the worrying thing for me is what are your expectations from here now? Do these two wins change your expectations for this team? But now that they've beat I it's online Counter Strike, but now your expectations have risen. So what happens if the next thing that comes is struggles?
speaker-0: Yeah, no, I think that's fair. I think it does change my expectation just in the sense that I really was just timid before to like be excited about the roster. So like now I feel like I could actually just be excited. That's like the Yeah, yeah. I'm not really like ⁓
speaker-1: Let you unleash a little bit. Alright, so we got the child magic out of the way. Now get to the heart of it. What's it what's it really like when you peel back the left?
speaker-2: I'm a lot more excited about Liquid than I have been for the last like two years. So I think that's that's a positive. And I think when you go to the land, like if they perform well in Malta, you know, I think it's important to start the season strong, ⁓ get some confidence at this kind of event. 'Cause you go into, you know, the bigger events down the line towards the end of the year and ⁓ I think that the team liquid just need to hit the ground running straight away. I I I don't think these players who were in that previous core could deal with another couple of months of slowly gr you know, sludging their way through Ga losing to and just, you know, this cycle of loss just over and over again. I'm I think this is really important that they had such a big win versus vitality just to like completely change the energy inside of the squad. Like yes, you remove a lot of players, it feels like it's it going in a new direction, but the fact that you do get an immediate result is just gonna do wonders for the mentality of the liquid players. And and I and I think that's just gonna be like, ⁓ breath of fresh air, like we actually can win.
speaker-1: That's a fair point.
speaker-2: And there's such ⁓ you know, i in sports and anything really like as soon as a competitor's reminded of what they're capable of, like Alige's gotta feel like, Okay, you know, this is this is more like me, this is what he's been trying to get to. So hopefully he goes on a bit of a hot streak as well. Like Alige playing well makes obviously Team Liquid just a whole different team, like a whole different beast.
speaker-1: Actually I think one of the things that that was really cool out of the win, I don't know if he mentioned this to you at all Flam when you spoke to him. ⁓ I I think I heard Jorko in like a postgame interview after they beat Vitality mention that he'd been working like a lot with Aliege, like pretty co closely like one on one. Which like more than anything, that's actually makes me a lot more excited than watching Alige be so dominant inside the server. I like seeing John take that like kind of leadership responsibility with the new younger players as well. Because there's a lot of incredible examples around the scene right now of veteran players being able to do that and being able to maximize how much they get out of these younger players. And I think John's a perfect mind to do it. ⁓ so I like that that's probably the most exciting thing to come out of those wins in my mind for this for this liquid roster. As weird as that might sound.
speaker-0: I mean, no, we did talk about that actually. You guys should watch it. Like I'm like I'm plugging myself. I'm I'm sad that you guys did. But no, but let me add this. Flam clips and highlights. Flam clips and highlights. Yeah, you could go in there. But no, it's like ten minutes. But no, we actually talked exactly about that. I asked him about that. ⁓
speaker-1: Where's it at, baby?
speaker-0: I I don't know if I 100% agree with you because I think it takes the right type of person. But what was fun to learn is Jorko is that person. So like John is very like anybody that has been around him or has even just like watched his YouTube videos, you can tell that he's very analytical, more so than like probably any other CS player. And I would say it's what makes him who he is and so successful, but also it creates his own faults. Yeah. With Jorko.
speaker-1: It's the double edged sword.
speaker-0: John said that basically he visualizes and sees the game the the game the same way he does, like in terms of like that analysis. So when they talk, it's like super easy for him to basically go through everything and help him build out that process rather than like it's not quite like the, you know, the story. It like they were they're like a good fit. It's not only is John just like trying to take on that role, which I do think you're right. I think he realizes the value in that as well. ⁓ but Jorko has the right personality type for him to help him succeed. And yeah, that's that was like really exciting to hear. You know, back to the original, like my expectation, kind of just like for overall, I don't necessarily see them as world beater necessarily or anything like that. What impressed me the most, and I'm with you, I think the JT Alish thing is kind of like it's easy. I don't really want to give anybody a hard time. It's true, it's e it's easy to talk about for the broadcasts, but that's like What's fun co-streaming and then doing this is I don't have to talk about that because I have more time to talk. And I think in general, what makes JT so good is he always has a plan. And it's so painfully obvious. And I know that sounds really like surface level, but and certain maps play into that a lot harder. But if you watch those two indubus games specifically, even when Liquid lost rounds, the immediate following round there was always a plan, and typically it involves some sort of proactive move. Which is what you have to do on Anubis, which also why it makes it so hard on C T side, but also is why JT is such a strong caller because that is his personality through and through in every single map. There's always a plan, there's always the next step, there's always the next move. Where I'd fault him is maybe being a leader of men in general, but in terms of his actual how he sees the game, how he starts around, how he does everything, he's always pushing forward and he's never had players as good as he's had on Liquid. People will say, like, he had Senzu for a second when he like a hired mercenary and they like barely practiced. That doesn't fucking count. Like this is the best roster he's ever had access to across the board when you look at all the rules and the most experience he's had with other players. And he's always able to basically have a plan and push forward, which is an incredible attribute to have with IGLs. You see it even with like IGLs that I think are veterans and good, you'll see it with like a like Hooksie's a great example where you listen into the comms and Hooksie's still talking about the last round. Like and and You you sometimes feel the need to do that. And I'm not trying to even like dunk on him right now, but it's to prove a point that certain IGLs also, I think, have this incredible ability to like kind of say it, but then immediately move. And that was reflected in everything that Liquid did. And that was why I was like that what had that's what ⁓ had me most excited. It wasn't John's performance. I didn't think John anybody that thought Elise just lost the ability to fucking aim is brain dead. And I don't care about your point.
speaker-2: I think a great thing about JT as well is he doesn't have that clash with ⁓ with a liege the way Shuai did as well, right? So that that just immediately frees up so much more for a liege. ⁓ and probably a lot more comf ⁓ comfortability just across the entire map pool. You know, when you have an in-game leader as you mentioned has so many ideas, but also just isn't going to step on his toes, get in his way, have a little JT isn't gonna call for himself either. Like that's such a big thing. And I I also think Team Liquid have lost so much confidence in in each other over the last few months obviously with that previous roster. You just can't trust the guy next to you. ⁓ so I I it's really nice to hear like the attitude around Jorko and Alice being confident and sort of p bigging up his new Opera in the team because I think it's painfully obvious how much of a liability ultimate was. And like the players were just you can't even deny it. Like the mistakes he was making, you know, the coach desperately trying to figure out a way to implement him to make better decisions. No, it's just that was such a big problem. ⁓ down the line. So if you're actually confident in your Opera and your in-game leader isn't stepping on your toes for your star player, I mean it's just obvious that like it just makes more sense for Team Liquid and you're immediately seeing that for a leash. So yeah, ho hopefully it continues. But I'm I'm optimistic ⁓ that it will continue. But obviously I don't really know how high the ceiling can go for Liquid at all.
speaker-1: Yeah. Well I think I think by the end of the season probably like ten to fifteen on the VRS is like probably a a pretty healthy ambitious goal.
speaker-0: You're higher than me. I would I was just gonna say like it would be. I I think I I think they're gonna struggle because they did so poorly. I said invites. Well no no, like maybe level of caliber of team, but like actual VRS, if that's what we're talking about, like it when you say that, I just think that that might be that could be really hard for them to achieve. Sure. It really is gonna be dependent on this because they were just so bad that they've missed so many invites. I think if you saw Flashy's tweet today
speaker-2: That would be amazing.
speaker-1: Tem to fifty.
speaker-0: You know, he was really he was rationalizing not only why are they in overlapping tournaments, let's be honest, they didn't expect to make the land, but like they're trying to gun it for a specific timeline for a certain invite window for a certain number of events because they've missed so many and that's kind of the that's the negative with VRS is once you're kind of out, you are outside looking in until you punch your way through again.
speaker-1: Here's here's another negative with the VRS as it pertains to Team Liquid, is because there were so many events with Falcons out, what Vitality is out, ⁓ Spirits through, who's the other big favorite that's out now? Furia, I don't think, made it either. They got they got knocked out. G2 is the other one that looked the online portion of this event actually gives more VRS points than the LAN portion of the event.
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓
speaker-1: Because of because of all the favorites, because of the bounty now. So you're kinda like, Yeah, we qualified to this, but now it doesn't have nearly as many VRS points available as we thought it might. And Liquid is also, I think, selecting last in the rotation for the play.
speaker-0: So then they will get the benefit 'cause they'll get spirit. So they will they'll get I mean, hey, you got vitality, somebody got falcons, why not? And you know, actually what do you guys th I I was saving this for later, but what do you guys think about spirit right now? Like actually, like we might as well just
speaker-1: So they will have the benefit at the very least.
speaker-2: Donk is just still unbelievable. I think we'll just say that every podcast, every episode, is just incredible. ⁓ there's just no one no one like him, you know. No when you watch it like there's obviously players like Zaiwoo, etc. like close you know, at the top of the world, but it's just watching Donk is just unbelievable how consistently incredible he is on the rifle. And it's just it doesn't matter how well you're playing, he will just inevitably show up and destroy you at the end. Like it was that was strange to see in the clone. playoffs. ⁓ you know, sadly he he disappeared there. But like these kind of tournaments I just never doubting Donk. And I mean when you when you have him at an event of this scale, like he's good online, he's good on land, there's like he's just not gonna disappear. So I I think that's he just makes Teams of Spirit incredibly consistent at events of this level.
speaker-0: Do you I mean you guys feel like instead of Donk though, did you guys just get this like even though it's online, this feeling like Spirit just completely went backwards, like entirely with Halley back in the lineup? I I just wanna tell me can I let me actually I'll speed run this and I'm actually curious what you guys think. Do you guys think that Halley commands not commands has too much respect from his players that when he is actually involved with the team's lineup on a direct level when the games are live? That it negatively impacts the team. Not that he does something or anything, just purely this is my current working theory is that they look
speaker-1: They know the coach standing behind them has this philosophy and they want to adhere to this philosophy because that's the one the coach is talking about.
speaker-0: It's a dad you don't want to disappoint or something like that. Is literally cause this team looks so clammed up and it looked like they were the team bef it looks like the first half of ⁓ last season, not not before they went on the run. So before we continue that wonderful conversation, I need to thank today's sponsor for the NQ podcast, CS Money, because without them, Moneyman Moses wouldn't be able to be here and he wouldn't be able to make time for us. So Thank you very much, CS Money, for sponsoring NQ. As many of you guys already know, if you're familiar with my content, CS Money is strictly a trading and marketplace website. So I got lower prices than Steam. You can do quick trades. They have probably one of the biggest inventories, if not the biggest, of any site out there. You could use PayPal or crypto if you want to buy through the marketplace. They also have like an instant sell feature. So if you're just trying to move your stuff quick for whatever reason, you could do that directly through them and sell some of your inventory. That sounds interesting, make sure you guys check out the link in the description below. As always, like to say, be careful guys, not just like with this or with anything. Just be careful with clicking links out there. There's a lot of impersonators of all of these sites. And I just want people to be careful, genuinely. So just, you know, just a little warning for me. We'll get back into the video now.
speaker-1: not gonna pass any judgment on anything with online counter strike. I'm just not. So I mean maybe maybe there's something there and maybe you're right, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna like when I when I watch them this week, I mean look, it's it makes me scratch my head and it sucks and it's a b and it's kind of annoying. Seeing them drop a map to OG, drop a map to a hundred thieves as well, especially Hundred Thieves ⁓ smoked ⁓ on that Mirage thirteen to four. So watching them drop those is kinda like, fuck, this isn't the spirit I wanna see at the moment, but It's online counter strike, so I wouldn't say that it's anything clammed up because of a coach. My initial instinct is always, well, they're just kind of playing like shit because it's online counter strike and teams of this caliber generally generally play twenty percent less good if I was to throw an estimated number at it.
speaker-0: Did you have a chance to like watch each of the rounds though? Or like were you just ⁓ just curious. Like, did you see how some of the
speaker-1: watching super in depth. I was watching the Hunter Thieves game. I didn't see the OG one. I just watched the Hunter Thieves game ⁓ after I saw the ⁓ the first map.
speaker-0: Yeah, it was like less individual performance based for me and just more so like literally like the calling and the decision making was fucking rough. It was like really egregious. That's what that was like more so what I like, man, what what is like that was that's what scares me. That's all
speaker-2: And you don't You don't want see that because of the month the you know, the months leading up to the major and and you know, during the major we were always talking about the fact like what would you do? Like you're watching these players who've just come out and look so much better when Holly isn't there and Saltfix being the main coach, they look a lot more freed up to Near in particular. ⁓ the reason, you know, when you ask me about Team Spirit, it is just Donk, like, is the difference. Like if it if if you don't have Donk there, it's just okay, maybe that last map against Hunter Thieves, obviously he's the hard carry and they stole thirteen zero but It's across the board, like OG donks just kinda pulling them out of specific rounds, getting you a multi killer, the crucial rounds and the crucial moments of the game. So again, it's like yeah, I I feel across the board they look so average with when they have that structure. But like when they had ⁓ Sotfik coming in as that main guy as the coach instead of Holly, I I feel like you got to see way more out of Tenier that you just never seen. So I think that team I I I would definitely read into what you're saying, Flaum later down the line, like It's a bad first sign like that he's come back and we do see them look a little rough, especially because of how good they were looking like for months on the lead up. So, ⁓ I think give it a one or two more events and ⁓ I think we'll really start to get that answer. But I I feel like there is a worrying sign that that could be the case.
speaker-1: think I think we need to be really careful with Spirit and how you how we look at them from the outside and analyze it because I I think how well they played at the major and how well Magic stood up as a caller in high pressure games that were going deep into overtimes might have made us all forget a little bit that he's still a very new and very inexperienced IGL. So there's going to be this bounce up and down. There's gonna be some inconsistency in performance. There's gonna be a map that looks good one day and looks like shit the next day as they still kind of get the feel for how he's calling on it and how he feels with how his players are playing. And you have the coaching situation bouncing back and forth. So I think there's a lot of factors that go into it and it's very simple to point it at Halley and say this is this is the issue because it was such a good talking point before the major as well and a fair one at that point. I think just right now there's a lot of just variable swirling swirling around that team. So for me it's just kinda like I'm gonna chill and I'm gonna wait and I'm gonna see a little bit more because yeah, Donk is a big part of the team, obviously as Dinko's saying. I think Shiro is an incredible piece as well. Those two guys get a mask a lot of these issues with how well they've played and how well they played leading into the last major. So there's there's some crazy shit going on with them, but I'm not super concerned until I start seeing this team show us some weird shit at actual events.
speaker-0: Okay. Yeah yeah. No, I mean they were the only top dog not to fuck up. I I would say that was more so because of dog than anything else, but that doesn't matter. He's on your team, so
speaker-1: You'd you'd still, despite these struggles, you're gonna have this team in the category of like the vitality spirit falcons as like your three Falcons is still hung over. Like
speaker-0: And they they they looked rough, I won't lie. The ⁓ you know one deserved to make it like the variables. What did you guys think about Mongols actually? I I forgot to list this in here, but what do we ⁓ how do you how you guys you guys like the new the new pickups? Like how do you feel about this team? Do you think like it might not I was pretty doomed. I don't think I mentioned it to you guys, but I went and yapped with Maui and Thorne and like my my viewpoint was like this could Not kill Asian Counter Strike necessarily, but remove Asian Counter Strike from the talking point of like the elite teams. Like right, like we went from like at one point with Mongols, it was like they might win this tournament. Like when are they gonna win a tournament? To now it's just like I'm over here like I hope they don't become like not in tier one tournaments because they all these things going on. I kinda fell on the fact that I think nine ten is actually such a good opera that especially in early stages of tournaments, it can hide it. But I'm just curious, what did you guys think of ⁓ ⁓ wait, Tik TikTok and Darkmeister. What did you guys
speaker-1: Now you're pronouncing it? Chad and I had a debate on how to pronounce his name. ⁓ fuck. I said it I said it was probably Tik.
speaker-0: I I don't think it's I don't know, dude. I I got nothing. You and I are from the Midwest of the United States. What the f usually we're wrong, honestly, Jason, is what I've like? It's all good. Like it's
speaker-2: T. We know Tquak messed up some guys in the Midwest over on that wild card team. So yeah, I mean you can call them whatever you want. But the the ⁓ the Mongols, I s especially that first game, I was so depressed watching them get beat thirteen five ⁓ by heroic. Like I was like, ⁓ the Mongols are dead. Like they hasn't they haven't been able to find ⁓ the replacements. 'Cause I think what we always talk about Mara is like the fact that he's always able to find the next guy at the land cafe, bringing up the new Mongolian replacement. You know, every single
speaker-0: Every day.
speaker-2: ⁓ showing up. He's just walking around like at the it's finding them in the building. Like it it's crazy. I you know, when I went there it's just there is just seas of people playing on PCs all day just playing
speaker-1: He's got eyes on all of them.
speaker-2: So many building. Yeah, he's just recruiting scouts everywhere. But you know, there's so many times like over the years where Mongols have made a move and removed the player and you think, ⁓ that's that's just killed Mongols. Like that that one has killed them. How are they going to replace someone like Score? Then they were replaced him with like Mzinio who and who replaces Batak, they bring Senzu into the team. It's like, ⁓ this team's like so much better and they become major runners up. ⁓ I thought the Cobra Zera move was actually pretty good and I was a little bit surprised that he was removed so early. ⁓ but I think these two players, I don't have a huge amount of faith. I'm actually kinda sad for the Mongols that they've they've had to lose Mzinio and and Senzu, who've gone on to a team that I just don't think are gonna do very much. ⁓ it's just sad to kill the Mongols in this way and I just don't see them becoming a very good team. I don't think they're gonna be inspired at all with this roster to to go and try and chase the heights of the previous Mongols team. I think this team are gonna be actually pretty happy if they can get a team around ten to fifteenth in the world like Team Liquid. ⁓ when when a few months ago we were talking about this team or like a year ago obviously talking about this team as a us a roster who could compete for the biggest titles. So I think it's pretty sad and ⁓ Asia have lost their leading squad and they've taken a massive
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, one of the Talisman teams for sure.
speaker-1: I'll I mean, I'm not gonna pretend like I know anything about these two players like Dark Meister is a pretty sick name, Jason. ⁓ Dark Meister is a cool name. I don't know anything about how he plays Counter-Strike. Same with Tikwok. I don't know anything about how he plays CS. But I mean I'll tell you this you have a pretty solid core of nine ten blitz and techno, as you're saying, with the way the op can be so influential, strong early on, you can have a little bit of a leg up. I think you have experience in calling, experience in training players up. I'm still gonna give Mara the benefit of the doubt and say you can probably do it again because he's done damn good with all the replacements he's found considering the situations. I'm with you. I don't think they're gonna reach that peak of the previous one, but ⁓ you know the the one of the things that the previous roster had is they were always so good, I feel like, of having like a high floor. Like they were always so good at beating teams like beneath them and at like a certain ranking point. It was getting over the hump towards the top levels that they struggled with. So I think if you have a team like that that's just gonna have two more really strong, talented Mechanical, individually skilled Mongolian players. This can still be a team that's just like a nuisance to deal with. I think they can still have a couple like, you know, surprising quarter final placements here and there.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I had like an interesting debate on a ⁓ on my one of my co-streams about this. I'm just curious, like you we talk about I agree with you guys that like they're able to bring in this talent and like maintain relevancy, but there is like this interesting thing where now people I I heard Scranny and Launders said it on the cast, but then they they almost like walked it back. But this idea, do you guys actually think it's the system then that Mongols has? Or do you
speaker-2: Yeah, they just got at the ceiling.
speaker-0: ⁓ because I actually don't believe that. Just so you I could come clean here. I actually don't believe that Mongols has a strong system that allows them to continuously maintain their floor. I actually think that the individuals they keep getting for like are just so strong that they bail them out of many even the rookies, like what I see the individual level that I see out of them is so high immediately, which is the craziest part to me. I actually feel like it's their system that holds them back a lot of the time from ⁓ like ascending, but it's hard because it's like this weird thing where the Counter-Strike world would tell you you keep changing players, you lose star players, and you're maintaining relevancy each time you do it, then surely it would be the system. But I every time I watch that team play, they're exciting to watch. But man, I see so many like I'll just I see so many stupid decisions being made by the Mongols. Where I'm just I'm just like scratching my head. I'm like, what the fuck just happened? But then they just go win the next round and the rookies that they bring in look like they have like they don't even know what anxiety or nervousness is of the scale of the event that they're playing in and they just shoot hard still and it's like Yeah. So I'm just curious, like, do you guys like think that there's something like maybe with Mara or like Blitz that they're able to like some Maybe it's not the system in the game as much of you know, how they are able to maybe calm players. Like I don't know. It's just it's just an interesting debate.
speaker-2: Going back to, you know, the point of like the Mongols inside the server, I don't think they've ever done anything special that you can say he's like, ⁓ this is a crazy system. I think for the Mongols it's always been they do the simple stuff really well and their individuals are mechanically incredibly gifted and even when they make stupid decisions and make mistakes, so many times you see a an individual player like recover it or pull pull off s a k kill they shouldn't get which gives them a chance to win the round. I think that's happened so many times. ⁓ and there's so many times where we we finished the map, Jason, where were casting them all goals and we're just saying they're like, How did they like win that? Like it was like I think on T side nuke it's just like how they're just running that red rot box. They've got two kills outside they shouldn't have found. ⁓ it just happens a lot. And I think that is the there's just I don't think there is a system at all. I think they're just good at calling simple calls and being very effective individuals and I think they go out there and they find maybe players with good personalities that kind of fit in the team. ⁓ but also just very, very talented, mechanically gifted players that you can kind of rein in a little bit. I think Cobra was making a lot of mistakes at the start of Mongols. He ran him in a little bit, but obviously they haven't seen enough in him that they want to keep him around. So ⁓ I think another thing about the system outside of the server, I would say the fact that they're Mongolian really helps in terms of creating sort of a a bubble around themselves at events, right? You're not dealing with much else other than being there for the Mongolian press or You know, they you're not getting on the same social media hype. They they're not s big social media guys either. You know, that's all very much they're famous in Mongolia, they're respected in Mongolia, but they don't have to deal with all the pressures that some of the other players in the international squads are dealing with. And I think going to events and just being able to keep a very small, tight knit culture within your team kind of helps with the big moment. You know, if if you're Monasy, etc. like these players, Kiyosuke had to join a a Falcons team where the pressure immediately is on him from All these different countries, fans from all over the world are gathering outside the hotel to try and see you. There's so much pressure because the Mongols just kinda get to float around and chill. ⁓ and I think there is a certain bubble culture within them that they're able to shield themselves from. ⁓ the extra pressure that some of the bigger squads get.
speaker-1: y yeah, I think ⁓ I don't know, I with the I system just always comes off as such a buzzword to me, so like ⁓ I we don't have to go down that road. So it kinda depends on like what you wanna d where you wanna discuss with that. I think they're just kind of like a really simple counter.
speaker-0: Why do you think their floor is so good with so much random
speaker-2: Sure.
speaker-1: I mean to like use the buzzword, like I don't I'm with I'm with Dinko where I don't think they have like a true system that's has any depth or complexity in terms of protocols and reactions and how they respond to different situations. I think they have a very simple strat book that they kind of all bring the same philosophy to, which is I know what kills I'm supposed to get, and I'm gonna be super aggressive and chasing those kills down and and reacting and how I'm gonna react and you kinda live and die based off that kind of simple execute with the aggression and they do it pretty damn well and they shoot pretty damn hard so they're they're gonna get some rounds and in that sense I think it's kind of sort of easy to plug some new bodies into it. Not teaching them super, super complex, deep like, ⁓ when you see these smokes or when this kind of combination when this player dies and this player's able to be here, you have to be in this position. You know, like th those are th I doubt that conversation is happening. And I think too Yeah, yeah. That's an easy way to put it. yeah, I I think too it's like you're also Fuck I had a point and it just disappeared. And it just disappeared. No, you're fine. Give me a second. Give me a second.
speaker-2: Does this happen when you get old?
speaker-1: Yeah, more and more as you go on.
speaker-0: Chill. I'm catching him, bro, chill.
speaker-2: Mm-hmm. Okay.
speaker-1: I'll get it in a second. I'll get it in a second. I'll get it in a second.
speaker-2: Okay. ⁓ from the other side of things it's like for the for the Mongols as well, I think just back to your point, Jason, they're just so
speaker-1: No, I got it. I got it. I got it. So this could be like an Aurora kind of a situation with Blitz in Major, right? Like where where Major always had that situation where he was like, I would love to be doing things a little bit more complex, but I don't feel like I have the players who can pull it off, whether they don't have like the patience needed or the understanding of the big game plan and concepts and and and CS game knowledge to be able to understand why they're doing this and why they're supposed to be doing this. ⁓ So I could I could see a world where Blitz is in a similar situation coming from a region that is well like we're always amazed at how he's able to pull people out, but there can't be a depth of like game knowledge that are objective or goal. That too. So it's it's kinda like, you know, you you might be in a world where like maybe there's a couple of people who do want to make it more complex, but not only more roster changes now, but you just don't have the the fucking players ⁓ with which to do it because they're not experienced enough to implement those ideas.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: But this is all just musics.
speaker-2: I another year.
speaker-0: That's what podcasts are, bro. It's all just bullshit.
speaker-2: I think a unique that has come up for the Mongols that you never really thought was gonna be a thing is that international interest has come through for their best players. Like wonder would you ever like two years ago, do you ever think we'd be talking about European teams trying to buy Mongolian players? I mean, this is the team that were just refusing to speak English at all. Yeah, and now we've got Mzinho and Senzi, who are playing with simple and electronic. Like it just sounds mental, but it it's happened. So the Mongols have lost ⁓ two of their best players. To an international roster and that's something I just never thought would happen for the Mongolian teams. So they've managed to pull it off.
speaker-0: Maybe. I'd I'd agree with you more if it was a different team. BC game is ⁓ a a bit of an outlier here, Dinko. I don't know if I'm We're not talking about Senzu getting poached by like a top tenure. We're talking about Senzu going from being a mercenary to passion to then going to crypto casino BC game with the infinite money glitch that is j is absolutely down to just splash cash for some fun. And that's where we're at, you know what I mean? Like I don't know not that sense like I like they're they're world class players where they couldn't do that jump, but like I wouldn't put them in that, you know, ⁓ yeah, this is it. Like they were gonna be joining, you know, any international team whatsoever ⁓ across the board. I think B C game is unique. They're an outlier. I don't know if I I don't know if I count them.
speaker-2: Jason Jason's getting a call up here. What do you reckon we're talking about here on this side of things?
speaker-0: ⁓ this is liquid calling Jason back to
speaker-2: There's a team look at it's like Jason, do you think we should keep going? Do you think we're gonna win this event?
speaker-0: Do you But how many magic cards will it take you to GM our roster?
speaker-2: All right, what do you reckon this was? Jason, you gotta tell us what was the call?
speaker-1: I apologize, plumber.
speaker-0: ⁓ not the pissed. We had a way cooler stor we had a way cooler story. We we said I said you're gonna be the GM Eliquid, they're gonna pay you magic cards, but
speaker-2: Chadburn.
speaker-1: ⁓ baby. ⁓ baby. Now we're cooking. Get me in there, coach.
speaker-0: Hell yeah. I've never this is the happiest I've seen Jason. Like ever. Holy shit.
speaker-1: Wait, Flam, wait, I I wanna backtrack to before I answered the phone call. I don't know how how deep you guys went. You're telling me you don't think this B C game th is this not a statement now of picking up Mazino that they're here to be competitive, that this isn't
speaker-2: Just still got electronic on the team. They you cannot say you're competitive when you got electronic on the team.
speaker-0: I don't want to go right now. No, it's not a serious team. It's not a serious team. It could be. They listen, it Matt ⁓ They got Mizina's can I yell international roster with two Mongolians that have never been an international roster with known calming presence that helps build teams electronic and also also known very patient simple. ⁓ I don't know if you've seen the Lord of the Rings.
speaker-1: Yeah. Mazinho speaks great English.
speaker-2: And sings very well. He could sort soothe the mood in the team, a little throat singing.
speaker-0: Still doesn't change that it's their first international roster and it still doesn't change that let me check my notes. They have zero fucking VRS points.
speaker-1: Yeah, but does it change the intention? Of course it's a brand new
speaker-2: No expectations.
speaker-0: I know, but does it change the intention? Not really, I feel like. I've like I I don't know. It feels like you have a lot of money and you went and poached and bought out players that are very good and you played Esports Manager twenty twenty six and made a roster. And honestly get listen, I will pay attention to them and I will be excited to see that roster when they're in a tournament that I'm allowed to co stream. The thing is, I will not see that until the major at best. That is their route. Like their route is through the doldrums of tier two, tier three, they sneak in their invite of EU and they get in there, and I watch them stage one, and I'm like, ⁓ my God. And that's where I'm gonna form all my opinions about this roster. And that's like before then, it's just gonna be like, I'm gonna check the HL TV page. I might react to it and pretend like I really watched the game. I totally didn't, because it's gonna be ⁓ a a an event that I just didn't get to watch and there's only so much time in the day. And I'll be like, ⁓ yeah, they might make the major and that'll be about it until they make stage one 'cause I don't even think they could probably make stage two like the way that this starts so
speaker-2: I the point you raise is perfect because there's no doubt about the skill on this team. Like there's so many skilled players on the roster. It's entirely about mentality and team culture. And it's just it's gonna be a shit show. Like it's simply put, like it's gonna be an absolute mess. Like it I don't know how you're going to get these people to all get on the same page. Like there's
speaker-1: I'm so excited for
speaker-0: Actually I know, I know. You know how they're gonna bring it all together, right?
speaker-1: In some ways it's the most
speaker-2: It's a good thing Taz is already bald man 'cause like it would be GG within the first week, I feel like. I the at least the one positive thing I have about this BC Game Squad is that in Atlanta I think I got glimpses of a simple that really truly wanted it. And like just walking around, you've just seen like yeah how frustrated he was that he just wasn't quite getting there. ⁓ and you know, trying to push his teammates. I think with Mzinio and Senzu, they are shining lights. Magisk, I don't know. Like I feel like there's part of him that's gonna want to prove that he still got it, like hell feel a little bit slighted he got removed from that Falcons team and and to try and show that he can truly do I know he's been wanting the IGL for a while. He's been approaching a couple of different organizations to try and become the IGL, but I just don't know like if he has that hunger, if things if you look at simple electronic and you look at the two Mongolians in your team and you're you're not seeing that result quickly and you've still got the mountain to climb to get back from zero VRS points. I don't know How strong the mentality of Magic is gonna be in the in-game leader department as well to try and pull everything together.
speaker-1: ⁓ I mean, yeah, it's gonna be an absolute shit show. I mean there's no logical reason why any of this should work. Mm ⁓ you know, I'm just making the point, you know, you make these kind of moves as an organization, you're you are kinda making the statement that we want to be competitive. You know, you don't you don't make these moves, all of these moves, purely for just eyeballs, you know?
speaker-2: ⁓ I think that that's exactly
speaker-0: Where I don't agree with you. That's actually ⁓ where I don't agree with you, Jace. Yes, I bro they have a fuck it's an online c I'm not even trying to get into morality here. I'm just saying it's an online crypto casino, bro. I live in a place where we build a goddamn building every fucking couple years because of how much people lose. Now you don't even have the overhead. This is infinite money glitch. What? You're gonna tell me that come on, go ahead.
speaker-1: to discuss like corporate structure. I know the fucking casino executive doesn't give a fuck about the counter strike team. But whatever whatever they person they put in charge of this and said, here's ten million dollars, go make me a counter strike team, he's competitive. He's taking it for real.
speaker-0: But I'm seeing the CEO fucking trying to get Jason. That's like like and I'm not even saying that this can't be a serious team. I'm just saying
speaker-1: I don't follow the CEOs. I don't follow the CEOs. No.
speaker-0: No, I just I don't either. It just shows up in my shit where he's just like, you know, it's like we got no cries for Atlanta and I also know that he put in small text as a sub that won't play. Like it's like and you know it's stuff like that all the time, like where it's like, Okay, I'm not even I'm not hating the game. I'm just also acknowledging
speaker-2: Just turn this team into the Truman show. Just put a camera in every room and put them all in one house and like turn it into the Truman show and this will be the most popular team in Counter Strike history, I think. It's like you're just sitting there
speaker-1: That's actually a
speaker-0: I just know how much these I I know how much those fucking casinos wheel and deal when it comes to streamers and Jason talks about like a ten million dollar budget. Brother, they don't care, Jason. They don't have a budget. I was throwing out a number. Like they might have one, maybe, theoretically. Probably not. Like the CEO they used to sponsor C nine and then they made their own team. You think they did that out of they're bored, bro. This guy is probably bored out of his mind, likes Counter Strike and is throwing yeah, he's not. He's like, I got simple, he's like, Let me go get Senzu. Fuck it, Mizinha wants to come too, this is sick. And I just Do you I don't think this is some carefully orchestrated plan, is all I'm saying. I think like they just splashed the cash, got the names that they could get. And yeah, they will have my attention when they are enough to do so, but like it's like
speaker-1: Of course it's not organized and planned out in any significant way.
speaker-0: But you're kind of implying that. Like they have to basically structure my ⁓ ass.
speaker-1: Well, here's the question. After with all that money, do you think they want a podcast?
speaker-0: Maybe. Ooh, wait now. Wait. See Money Man versus back at it again.
speaker-1: Shissan, hypothetically speaking.
speaker-0: Hypothetically.
speaker-2: Do the Truman show ⁓ pack it up over a PC game. ⁓ but not not Jason's
speaker-0: Jason, we should get paid. Anyway, go ahead th then go.
speaker-2: But ⁓ the real goat the real goat for Jason's device on a hundred thieves and damn they look good. They just signed a lovely British man, Jason. We had a beer with him, the things the vibes look good over at Monty after the cologne major, even after the exit, we're like, Wow this team is friends. And now they all hate each other, Jason. It all falls in
speaker-1: They'll pass.
speaker-2: Ruined it all. You and I ruined it. After that, they never will see each other again.
speaker-0: You did all that and four of them literally knew they were God.
speaker-1: They were like they like, What'd you think? I like, ⁓ man, I hope you guys sit together. It was a lot of fun watching you play some cool Counter-Strike. Like, you know, maybe it's gonna get a little bit better moving forward. Like it's it's fucking s
speaker-0: Including Kizmi's not in on it with you guys. They're all j you guys are just sitting there, Kizme's like, Hell yeah, dude, we made the run and the rest of them are just like
speaker-2: Yo, Gizmy kinda landed on his feet though.
speaker-1: I did the whole thing. I was like, I hope you guys keep your chin up and you're not taking the loss too hard. It was a great run, a great tournament, fun, fun to watch.
speaker-0: No, we're not. So you guys are the reason why Gizmy was ⁓ not signed. Okay, good to know. I mean we were happy.
speaker-1: Yeah, we're downgrade.
speaker-2: No, if ⁓ it's a positive thing really. Gizmi has kinda he's won that situation. He's big time won.
speaker-1: His wardrobe now is gonna be fucking awesome. With like just like a few months in a hundred thieves and he's gonna be so fucking cool. Walking around London
speaker-2: The problem is no matter how cool your clothes are, you're still sitting beside a device. So it's like they ain't always they're not gonna look the best. That's the sad part. But ⁓ I mean, they look the best on the server. That was fantastic. The best we've seen from them. ⁓ I was I was really happy to see a hundred thieves playing really well.
speaker-1: Outside of the outside of the thirteen ⁓
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Like the way to just fucking be a downer. Like
speaker-2: You know that was one map out of all the other
speaker-1: Literally can we operate in reality? They they got a thirteen o'd like
speaker-0: I'm gonna be able do
speaker-2: By dog, who hasn't got thirty no by dog?
speaker-0: Doing dude, I'm watching this game and Donk doesn't have a single facial expression. They lost map two. He smiled. He fucking smiled at the end of their map two on Mirage. And then I went. I'm scared of that kid. That kid actually is like there's a villain. Mother motherfuckers like a demon. Like, I don't know what's going on. He's a Sith Lord or some shit. Like he's
speaker-2: Favorite to play the next ball in the
speaker-1: I think he's I think he's so good at acknowledging when they lose a map that they lost because they fucking sucked that he just gets over it immediately. I think in his head it's so easy for him to be like, ⁓ we fucking sucked ass that map. Okay, move on. Next one. You know, like he just is like done
speaker-0: I think it's more. I think he's just it it like I he actually does get fueled up. Like you know how like we like to well not me, I'm not a cast with you guys, but that's always like a fun narrative to like try to throw out there, right? As you see a team get dogged on and then be ⁓ yeah, that'll piss them off. That'll
speaker-1: Let's see what kind of a rebuttal ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah. No, but it actually it actually pisses him off. Like ⁓
speaker-2: But the football world cup was in your country, so did you watch the Argentina England game?
speaker-0: ⁓ yes.
speaker-2: So you know that like clip of Juke Bellingham kind of pissing off Messi and he kind of like isn't that I feel like that's Donk man, like he that's like that same sort of attitude, like you lose the map, it's like all right, fine, I'll do it myself and just takes over for that third one. Like that that Donk does have that special quality and I think Simple had that as well before. Like there's just this attitude, Okay, yeah, we we we actually suck, so I'm just gonna do it myself. ⁓ and he has the skills to actually do it.
speaker-0: Yeah, the with the face where he turned yeah.
speaker-1: It's pretty telling that we came into this topic to discuss a hundred thieves and we've now worked our way to Donkey.
speaker-2: You did that. ⁓
speaker-0: That was a crazy fucking map, dude. I'm sorry. Like that was fucking nuts.
speaker-1: I'm just I'm just gonna say, I mean, like, I don't know, again, it's like hundred thieves. I'm not gonna pass any judgment on this team. Yeah, they beat Falcons, but ⁓ I mean chat pointed this out to me today on the podcast is like look at the games they've played with this lineup online. It's like they've also lost a K twenty seven online, they've also lost a T D K online, they've lost to NIP, and they've lost a l they lost to Nuclear Tigers or T Ters. Exactly. Exactly.
speaker-2: Man. Yeah.
speaker-0: No.
speaker-2: I'm selective with her when it counts and when it doesn't. I know it's
speaker-0: Wait a minute. I have the glass half full version of this though, Jason, which is of course they're brand new teams, so their floor is gonna be buns, right? But when you beat a team like Falcons, hangover or not, you do get to see potentially what maybe the ceiling is, so that's kind of exciting. And when you beat up on spirit and arguably were in position to maybe at least take them to overtime, you could say with some of those rounds, maybe even beat them on Anubis. I felt like they had to win Anubis, then they surprised me a mirage. You know, you can see the ceiling, right? That's the glass half full, which that ceiling is a hell of a lot better than anything they were rocking with with rain as an IGL. And I say that as a guy that was excited to see the rain IGL arc and see it like just
speaker-1: I was so excited to see it end. I was so excited.
speaker-0: I'm glad like like I'm happy that it was attempted. Like does that make sense? Like I actually No, but like I don't know. I like to see like new shit. Like I'd rather 'cause I want rain to be around and I in my head I'm like if that's what has to happen for him to stay around then yeah. Yeah, yeah. So but also at the same time when it was not going great, like, okay, yeah, let's get a keep rain 'cause it's still fucking rain. Let's see if he can get back to his you know, doing his thing and
speaker-2: I honestly think that was just something he said 'cause he felt like he needed to. Like I just think he's been in the he'd been in that same team and phase for so long, he didn't really know his own worth. It's like being in a relationship too long, you don't know like how to date after. ⁓ I think that was right. I think he's got his he's got his group.
speaker-1: So he's divorced, now it's this we gotta get you out of that car.
speaker-2: Yeah. Star Strike coming up. The World Cup. I'll be back, Jason, be back in that circuit in no time. ⁓ one of the things that's really confusing to me, and I don't know if you guys are also confused by it, but what the hell has happened to Astralis? Like why why has nothing happened? Like why if they got Neo and they picked up Ursula from Nanfi, but like that's it. I swear I was reading articles and rumors it was gonna be a lot more with his team.
speaker-0: I Stralis saw what G two was doing and was like, We'll try to do the opposite. All right, go ahead then.
speaker-1: No, I mean I I heard the same stuff. I heard I th I expected like probably like one to two changes out of that out of that roster coming out of the major. So I don't know what this means. I don't know if it was like the rumors were just rumors and they they actually had faith in this lineup and decided to go the direction of instead of bolstering with that. Or maybe like instead of bolstering the lineup they decided to bolster like the back office, the w looking over at vitality and the way that they get so much applauded for being an organized front office with with all their kind of
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: mental coach and performance coach and blah blah blah blah blah. Maybe it's they couldn't get the people they wanted that they thought would be a significant improvement, so they decided to stand chill and and not make any changes to it. But either way I don't think I don't think bringing Neo in as a coach is enough to move the needle significantly. I still think that we already saw this team sealing in its first like three months back at pro league. I don't think we're ever gonna see the Sistral's team play as good as they did back at that pro league, unfortunately. Which was what a third, fourth place decider? I think they got fourth. Yeah. Yeah, so they got fourth. I think that was the best we'll see Astraus look.
speaker-2: Again's foot. Yeah.
speaker-0: Ha ha.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ I I just think it some teams are just fucked right now, bro. I'll be honest. Like that's like I think like you're just kind of you have like a moment where it's not too bad, like Astralis just did. And you're not you they know let's just say it how it is. Astralis is not a relevant top five team that's winning a tournament with this roster anytime soon. There that's not really and there's no roster move that changes that. So
speaker-2: I think this roster sea menia this season was so crap. Like I just think it was so underwhelming. It doesn't change anything for the Counter Strike world.
speaker-0: And I just think it kinda is like, you know, these teams are just looking at it, it's like, well, we can make a change now, but does it change anything? Like does this really if we go and we're aggressive with a move to to do something, have we seen enough with our roster where this ⁓ move that we currently would like to make change our overall outlook as a team? And I think that's why they are right where they are. And I think that that may have backfired now because it's looking worse than they expected. ⁓ and I think that just comes down to individual level, just not really being there like they hoped it would be. I think maybe the coach thing like the stereotypical traditional sports thing. You don't really know what to do, so you just replace the coach real quick and see if it sparks something in the team. I i you know, you mentioned different sports. In hockey, we love to do that all the fucking time. ⁓ it literally you just change out the coach. ⁓ fuck it. The team's kinda underperforming. Let's just switch out the coach and see if it sparks some shit. I think that was literally maybe the logic, but I just think that Astralis with their their group of players, no matter who you take out and put somebody in, I am not gonna be sitting here and I don't think any of us are gonna be sitting here telling like talking about how they're now a top ten, top five team. Think their their goal is or a relevant like situation they're in is they can maybe get into the top ten or close to it. Not now after what I saw, but that's like that's it. That's your vision. So you
speaker-1: The goal is perform perform well enough to qualify for the major. That's their goal. You know, they don't really care about the individual placings at events as long as those placings lead to major qualification. Be in the invite bubbles, right?
speaker-0: Probably a little bit higher. Yeah, that's why well, I just feel like those are a little different, right? Especially in EU because you could be there's so many teams where like yeah, so I just wanted to clarify. Yeah, yeah. Like tier one is like top fifteen.
speaker-2: Personally I feel like looking at the moves for Strallis and the way I read it is that they think that they haven't got the most out of their players. They haven't unlocked the maximum they can get out of the players they have on the team. And ⁓ to me it looks like they wanna ri they realize a big issue, or at least they think a big issue, is the mentality. So you you bring in Ursula from Navi, who is their sports psychologist over there, and you bring in Neo, who's more of like a cool head who was in that phase team, you know, a lot of experience. And try and get some more like chill vibes in the team and maybe try and unlock some mental strength in some players like Ryu, maybe Fuzi, to go and be better versions of themselves as players. Like Ryu, I think, is a very frustrating player because I think you get to see little glimpses of brilliance out of him, but I think he just ⁓ falls apart mentally. ⁓ so I'm hoping that maybe from a strawis' perspective, I think that's what they're looking at. It's just like, okay, this is a team that we feel like we maybe get a bit more out of. We've seen the ceiling they can hit, but mentality's probably the big problem. Like Hooksie is a great in-game leader too, but the fact that you you do see like I don't know if people were necessarily handling the harshness that Hooksy can bring to the table sometimes. He's trying to the way he gets the most out of his players. And hopefully the mentality side of things develops through Australia. So
speaker-1: The hooksy angle is is like you have to liken him to like an Apex as an IGL, where that's the kind of outlet of his emotions. He has that same thing as as Apex, where it comes out and it looks like it's gonna be terrible up until you realize that it's not meant to be terrible, it's not meant to be pissed. That's the way his frustration takes form for for better or for worse. So it's not about so much like trying to be zen through it as much as I think it's about like finding ways that the team is going to respond to it in in a positive manner, which is what I imagine they'd be working on the most because you're never gonna stop that. That's been a feature of Hooksy throughout all of his teams. It's just it's just gonna be there. So if you want him as your IGL, you have to ha that that comes along with it as baggage that that you have to work around. I think I think the problem for Astralis is like if I look at what's gonna make this team better without any roster changes, it's like a significant jump up in performance and like realizing of potential of a guy like Fozy, of a guy like Ryu. ⁓ stair's always been solid. We know what Yavi's gonna give you, but he's gonna get better and worse as the team around him plays better or worse, and we know Hooksie pretty well. So it's kinda based off Ozy and and Ryu hitting their ceiling as much as possible. And I just I don't think that's a that's a winning recipe. And it's clearly not something that's being realized at the moment. So they're gonna have a tough time. And like I said, I don't think the coaching change of Neo moves the needle at all. I th I think this team is kinda just gonna be stuck in limbo of Every once in a while there's gonna be a game where the pieces fall into place and everyone has one of those games where things fall into their lap and it's gonna look good, but it's never gonna last through an entire tournament run.
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean the glass out full, I guess, for them is just like Yabby did look really good. right now. I mean no, I'm just I'm just trying to actually like they did make it to the land. Like I mean I don't know. Like for what we have right now, they're true. They weren't like impressive wins. I'm not gonna like over like I'm not gonna overdo it. But I'm just saying at least Yabby actually probably looked the best that he's looked with this roster. The biggest glaring issue in terms of individual level is Fozy. ⁓ which is where, you know, I think we're Think most people expected Fozy or Ryu to get moved in some fashion if they had if you had to pick. ⁓ Well, ex that's what I was gonna s and this is back to what I was saying before is you know, you just kinda like look around and you're just like, Well, we can't do the example.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's the gamble or it's a lateral move essentially in the alt market it feels like right now.
speaker-0: Yeah. And you're just hoping you hit. And I just think for Astralisons, they had a little bit of success and they don't really think I would imagine the idea is that if you gamble it, even if you hit big, unless you hit the biggest or really big on the opera, you're not really gonna be moving one way or the other from like where you currently are. ⁓ not even like even if it's an upgrade. Like even if you saw this opera and you're like, Wow, this is a immediate upgrade over Fozy, you're not really getting into that like Big boy conversations still. Like you're still gonna be like, all right, what about Ryu? And then like, how is Hooksey's calling developing the other players? Whatever, blah, blah, blah. But that's why I said they kind of did the opposite of G2, where you and I we all talked last time, and I said, like, yeah, so we can talk about G2 now and have fun with this. Like I felt like they were just gambling to see if they could get a higher peak because they felt like they were close. I think G2 actually felt like they were close to being in that conversation for these top teams of like running it. But then Some pious wasn't really able to get them there and was saw being his coach for so long. Maybe just this realization of like, well, that's not really the solution. Wrinkle ain't it either, probably, but I think that was just a gamble.
speaker-1: I still feel like S ⁓ Sun Pius got got a bad rap there. Like I I still feel like
speaker-0: I I I think I think you're right. I just think that that's why G2 did it. Like that's all. I ⁓ I actually think that some pies got
speaker-2: But it's like obvious that Wrinkle just isn't worth the game.
speaker-0: Yeah, well I mean it's two games though, it's only online, that's what I heard. So like we can't do that. We have to wait. It's wrinkle of two game, right? Like I mean ⁓
speaker-2: I've seen more of Rink all than other teams.
speaker-0: Your time on NIP No, it doesn't count. It doesn't count. It's NIP. It's NIP. I I don't no, I'm with like it was definitely really bad. Like I honestly it wasn't very fun to watch Wrinkle. But that whole G two roster looked really bad. Theirs looks like absolute buns. I mean like I I wanna like
speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, it's really sad.
speaker-0: I it like there's no nice way of putting it. I don't like shitting on players. Holy fuck, you were looking rough.
speaker-2: Liquid pulled off the finesse move, man. Yeah.
speaker-1: One mark against liquid off the board, please. One one mark removed.
speaker-0: How many total do we have those? So I just ⁓
speaker-1: Like twenty nine or something like that.
speaker-0: Okay. Alright. I was just curious. no man. Like I the it felt like okay, gamble the opera, see if it hits bigger, give Nertz a second to see if he can find form, but holy shit he looks so bad. ⁓ my god. Like the he looks so bad, I would actually argue you can't even judge Wrinkle because everybody like on G2, they actually look so fucking bad.
speaker-2: We cannot judge Rick all because I mean yeah, heavy guard's not doesn't have too many bad games. I'm sure he'll bounce back on.
speaker-0: He does it but still like t I'm just saying the whole unit came out and it was just like
speaker-2: They look like turd coming out.
speaker-1: It's just the first game's back from the break, everyone's a little bit rusty, everyone's kinda
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-2: Yeah, that's fair enough.
speaker-1: I haven't said anything bad about Wrinkle. You can go back and check the tape. I haven't said a single I haven't had a single knock against Wrinkle.
speaker-0: Fucking again? When do you turn
speaker-2: Yeah, you like that shit? ⁓
speaker-0: Jackson Moses O'Toole birthday.
speaker-1: January. Capricorn baby
speaker-2: It was it was during Flomlin. Celebrated his thirty ninth birthday at Flomlin.
speaker-0: Did you are you forty? Are you if we Okay, yeah, so you're running okay. With killer forty, first as
speaker-2: That's what we're
speaker-1: With tequila. Yeah, free from the bar. Lovely people
speaker-0: What's the analysis of G tier? We're just chalking it up to some pious was ⁓ got it got you know, got removed too early and there's like buttons and online CS doesn't count. Is that
speaker-1: Dude I don't know. I'd l I'd love to ask Saul about this nerd or the Sumpaius Wrinkle thing going on for sure at some point down the road. 'Cause at the moment my only explanation is that it feels like they wanted to get rid of Sumpaius, which which also feels a little bit crazy to me. Like but if the if the if the person coming in is Wrinkle, it makes me feel like you you just really thought that this guy wasn't gonna get you much more than you were than you were getting at that point. So I don't know. I dunno again, nothing is nothing has changed my opinion on G two. I still think they're very much the same team that we saw towards towards the end of the year. ⁓ although
speaker-2: Personally.
speaker-1: I have a little bit less faith in Wrinkle than I do Sun Pius to be able to deliver in the big game, so whatever you want to take from that, you can take from that.
speaker-2: Yeah, I would agree. ⁓ I also I think just bluntly, I just don't really care that much about this blast tournament, to be honest. Like I think it's but as we highlighted, just the amount of online game. You know, I will care about it a lot more if I was commentating that event right now. ⁓ but you know, looking look
speaker-0: They didn't hire you guys, so fair. Yeah.
speaker-1: Well, this is a great pitch to get hired for the next one. That's for f Send them the send them the re I almost said it, I had to adjust.
speaker-2: The reason I don't care about this blast event is because it's not Blast Porto, which is their upcoming event, which is gonna be the greatest event of all time out of Portugal. We're gonna really look forward to that one. ⁓ but you know, looking at the the online stage of the event, it's just such a brutal format as well. Like you lose a game, you slip up, first game out of the break, it's online, you're out of there straight away, pretty early on in the competition, it's just disaster mode. So I don't I actually kind of like the way It's set up though for Blast because you get to see all these new rosters that I'm actually more interested in watching at the moment. I don't really care about watching Vitality, Falcons, Spirit all play each other at Blast Bounty Molto. I'd far rather watch FaZe. I'd rather watch ⁓ the these teams come up, Liquid, seeing how these teams are performing, getting more eyes on the new rosters. That's actually more interesting to me ⁓ in that respect. So I think Blast have actually got an interesting product being at that first event of the season where you are excited to see the roster moves. ⁓ and then going into the Esports World Cup, that's where you actually start to think about, you know, the bigger teams again down the line. But ⁓ for me I I'm actually enjoying the fact that a lot of the underdog teams made it into the the LAN event 'cause that's that's actually the only teams I'm actually interested in watching right now for this event.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, it's actual moves. Yeah. Yeah. I I like the event because ⁓ I think going straight into like a LAN, you know, I think you know, Jason I think said it. We'll check the tape, but I think he said all teams play twenty percent worse online. I think that's what he said. But scientific.
speaker-1: It's actually Twenty percent.
speaker-0: But my fucking fucked up. I just think that I'd be curious to see how much of that is online or maybe just coming out of the break. And that's why I actually kind of like the format too, is because I just think if we went straight into like a cologne type event. Well not cologne, but just, you know, like something where there's a big group stage, it's all Ya yeah, it just kinda I feel like it wouldn't
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: I don't like it as much.
speaker-2: Blass have kind of been the buffer every s time we start the season though. Like b blasts have been the buffer every time. Like if you think about it, huh most of the years recently have been starting with, you know, you get a blast group stage, you know, that was the event, Vitality Lost, then they won Katowica and went on to win every other event on the lead up to the major. It's like you get one warm up event where blasts get the date they get the sort of trumpets out, they get all the parade of like here's our new rosters that are coming into the season Counter strike's back and it's starting with blasts, but it the p the trade off is it's not you're not getting the best counter strike. and then the second event of the season is usually ⁓ like a championship level event. ⁓ so I think that's ⁓ I actually like it. I like how it works.
speaker-0: I like the warm up. That's what I'm saying. I just you know, it's like ⁓ you'll understand Dinko as you get older. This is like stretching before you lift. This is what this is. Yeah. This is a this is a good stretch and honestly it makes me feel better going to the next event 'cause now I can kind of like have some fun storylines that might not mean as much, but like it's something to kind of build nicely into the next one where if this were just like going right into it, I'd be maybe overanalyzing what's going on a little too much. I'd be giving it too much weight for the first event. 'Cause like it's all it's still on land and like it'll matter and all that stuff. Not that bounty doesn't matter, but it's just like actually a great way to start.
speaker-2: I think it's perfect way to start the season.
speaker-1: I'm still mentally on vacation, you know. Counter Strike's on the second screen, but it's not like a religious, you know, feature the way it is when the season is in full swing. I'm not ⁓
speaker-2: Or when you cast
speaker-1: I'm just kinda hanging out, get it back the the words running through my brain, the gunfire, all that kind of stuff, just getting back into the mood. July thirtieth is when the playoffs start for Blast. That's when my season that's when vacation
speaker-0: Alright, Unc. Alright. Okay.
speaker-2: That's when he's gonna in inch that liquid chair ever closer to the dust.
speaker-0: Yeah, it's gonna get a little bit closer than it's gonna just get s closer and closer and closer.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: Yeah, well getting closer and closer is the the World Cup, the Esports World Cup. And I I'm looking forward to that. Like honestly, we're actually gonna ⁓ that's not an L shit. We'll possibly know, ⁓ we could possibly be in attendance of the event. ⁓
speaker-0: Jason and Dinko absolutely love that that event. It'll be a the great it'll great way to get into it.
speaker-1: really sick that week. That that one week, like August like fi fifteenth, I'm getting really ill.
speaker-0: I hope not.
speaker-2: But ⁓ it's gonna it's gonna be r ⁓ good counter strike ⁓ because the format's actually good now. Like Esports World Cup format used to be really bad. But I think now it's ⁓ more interesting, it's like bigger teams, prize pools even bigger. ⁓ Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: The format was shit. What are you gonna what the fuck, Jason? What do you mean?
speaker-1: Fucking awesome dude. I just like different formats. Why do I I don't want to watch Swiss system every event we go to. I don't
speaker-0: I don't need to be Swiss. I just don't want it to be whatever that monstrosity was. Okay. I just ⁓ I I don't I don't need that. I don't need that. It's better.
speaker-1: I wanna bring back the format where we had like each team had three lives and you gotta like challenge the team to like a B O one. That was fun.
speaker-0: I know.
speaker-1: That's actually the worst take I've heard ever in any situation.
speaker-0: I know. Never. I love Best of Twos. It's so great. But it's so bad for everything.
speaker-2: I remember watching Best of Two in like ESL pro league seasons.
speaker-0: ⁓ dude, I had to play I had to play best of twos. I was still playing professionally when there was BO twos. I remember King's
speaker-2: You could just stop with what's the point of a show match.
speaker-0: Yeah, exactly.
speaker-2: Who did that? Of course you were cast.
speaker-1: I think I think it was an ESL one back in the day.
speaker-2: Speaking of speaking of show matches, I I have got one in mind, Jason, that you might like. So show matches have always been bad. So I think we go out there and we bring in we really embrace how bad show matches are and how no one wants to watch them. And we bring out Nip versus and we make it a show match. The war and we advertise it the worst game of Counter Strike you'll ever. Bringing back the old classico.
speaker-1: Selling point. Back the lineups.
speaker-0: ⁓ we have something. I do it with another creator. We call it Silvercast. We actually get certified silvers and we give ⁓ full production and we watch them play. I don't know if you guys ever caught that. It's so much fun. I wanted to bring that to I wanted to bring that to the land for the show match at one point. It's a little hard logistically right now, but it's in the works. So flying off. Honestly, that won't be as bad as I don't know if you're certified silver, but maybe you could coach. We could maybe make you you guys coach. Get in there, maybe. Yeah. Jason volunteered you. Notice how he didn't want to step up. He
speaker-2: He's already coached silvers. ⁓ man. ⁓
speaker-0: And the chair just slowly moves further back after he says touch his
speaker-2: In fact, someone from Liquid will go and f physically remove that.
speaker-1: No, they love me over there. I don't know, probably not, but I just
speaker-0: Do they?
speaker-2: Some people do.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: I operate in this world assuming everybody loves me and I just see where things go. You know
speaker-2: Everybody does love you.
speaker-1: I don't know
speaker-0: Now we're just glazing it. Do we have anything else besides just glazing? No
speaker-1: It's weirdly the funniest thing about this is maybe like a week or two ago we're like, Hey, ⁓ knock knock anyone home at the podcast, we want to do an episode, and Flum says, No, I want a few more roster changes to come into the mix. And that was after like eighty percent of the roster changes had occurred. So now we've got to an episode. The roster changes have all been discussed at length for like two weeks, and we have nothing to discuss now.
speaker-0: No, I like ours better though. I like this more because Loki like Dinko said, the roster moves were kinda poo, let's be honest. They weren't super we they weren't like the blockbuster move is two players going to a team we won't see. What the hell did you say mate?
speaker-2: You know what the thing You said glazing glazing Jason, and you know most most of the time people are actually insulting Jason. So I I think that's just a bit of a phase. And ⁓ we haven't spoken about phase yet. So let's ⁓ let's talk about J Belly.
speaker-0: Well yeah, it's true. We actually didn't. Actually, that's actually a good point. This is a Joe Biden is crazy, dude.
speaker-1: Dude, that is the best part about this roster change. Is Joe Biden and Netanyahu on the other side. That's the funniest shit. We're getting this fucking podcast demonetized. I tune into HLTV forum posts. Biden and Netanyahu on phase are awesome. And I'm like, what the f what fucking alternate reality have I
speaker-2: Joe Biden.
speaker-0: ⁓ We're so back, bro. We're so back. Solving Counter Strike and the world all at once. It's incredible. It's no, okay, but Jabowan actually Holy shit. It's like the same thing as watching Jorko in like Liquid. It's like, wow, there's so this is what it looks like when this roster has an opera that shoots somebody. Like it's that's actually the bar. It's like sorry, but that is like you shot some like holy shit.
speaker-2: Shell TV4.
speaker-1: Ultimate brokey, you did not get to the fair minimum. You you did not meet that bare minimum requirement.
speaker-0: It's so fucked. Brokey, you were great once upon a time. I'm sorry whatever happened to you. I hate dunking on you, but like god damn, like that is the bar right now from Vaze. And ultimate, you're probably gonna do better than you did in Liquid, but holy shit, were you awful towards the end? And it's just like yeah, for every offer coming in, that is
speaker-2: Actually turns out to be a god. Like that if the if we live in that world where Ultimate goes to another team and it's just like a sick op or I don't know, we need a
speaker-0: Like The rosters to be to struggle in. Phase for different reasons because of how they played previously with Kerrigan. I just think that once you start to lose yourself individually, it becomes like ⁓ there's no way to really bail you out. And I think with Ultimate, it he was still inexperienced. That's like his first roster is like that liquid team, right? At Tier One. And that team was not stable, like in any way. So for him to have any shortcomings as an individual player, it's just not gonna be a good situation for him to bail himself out of or like really grow in. You just kinda get thrown to the wolves and if you can't pull yourself out of it, you're just kinda doomed. So I just like to say that 'cause honestly I do feel bad whenever I ⁓ the you know talk about the bare minimum. But that is the bare minimum. Back to that. So Jaboan is actually shooting people with the AWP. And it's ⁓ it's absolutely beautiful to watch, man. He's really fun to watch play. Like he I like watching him play because he reminds me in a lot of ways of a slightly No, no, no, no. Yeah. Like a device. He r he gives me he likes to be quite mobile, but also he doesn't force things. So he will he has no problem kind of like saying, Hey, this is where I'm gonna be and I'm moving around a lot in the round and not necessarily running at you and I know what I'm gonna get in the situation and if you give it to me, I will not miss. And I really like that. Like that's like ⁓ it's just a really nice care. Characteristic to having your oper somebody that's just very confident in the move that they're making and they're willing to move around, but not necessarily like take the full round into their hands, which is kind of nice. and that's been the the revelation for me for FaZe. And I think twist side yelling again, I I never liked it in Liquid because felt like it was out of necessity, even if you wanted to do it. And then my biggest gripe is twist side yelling on liquid always meant that. Twist is no longer fragging on Liquid the same way. I don't care what anybody says about who's doing it like Xercian or maybe on Mouse. Don't care. Twist became the IGL. Sure. But Twist didn't have twist when he's IGLing, but now in phase he has frozen. And now in phase you have frozen, and now you have a competent, hopefully, Opera that can continue to grow. And I think that
speaker-2: Until the last week is a god.
speaker-0: Also Jacob getting a full reset as well. Back to the broki situation where like I just feel like that was the worst roster if you're a rookie. Like these situations are just terrible, man. Like if you were if this were like a traditional sport and you saw the turmoil going on with these rosters and you saw a rookie come into it, you'd absolutely like what might happen is they get cut, but then immediately picked up by like another team because everybody's just like, Well, we'll take a chance on them and see what happens. But in CS, like, might as well now that it's like new IGL, whole like basically brand new team. Give them some time again because really, not to say it didn't count, but that just was a terrible situation for you as a rookie to come into and actually show what you're capable of on any consistent level. Because the team wasn't consistent. Nothing in that team, the elements around it, the play in the server, nothing was consistent. How the hell are you supposed to perform if you're not Donk or Zaiwoo in that scenario as a rookie? Like you're just not going to. And that that's my expectation of these players. And that's why it's fun to see them kind of build themselves back up again. It's really fun.
speaker-1: Would you say this is kind of like the this is this is kind of like the the deciding moment for Twist as an IGL? Like how many more times do we entertain the conversation of Twist as an IGL if this struggles? 'Cause he's now had what the the liquid stint where he kind of took it when Yukinder stepped down and then he sort of had the liquid stint where he sort of stepped up to the plate and kind of like announced that he was taking it and then he goes to phase and now he's taking it from Kerrigan. And now he's the IGL as these roster decisions are made, so it's kind of be built with him and ⁓ as IGL in mind. But you'd say this is the one that is like kind of the final determination of whether he can do it or not. You've now had the requisite experience. You've now had a couple different lineups.
speaker-2: And you have no expectations.
speaker-1: This is the one where you have to prove that you can do it, right?
speaker-0: Hmm. I that's actually a really good way to frame it, I'm thinking. ⁓ I don't know.
speaker-2: I think he's so young that it's hard to say like forever.
speaker-0: That's what I supposed he's still 26. That's like my like when you asked me something definitively like that, I'm like, it's hard. I well here's the fossil question. No, no, but actually what I have the answer. I think like this would be like the most telling version of the twist IGL story. Like, like you said, it kind of maybe he manifested it, maybe he was like part of the problem that created those issues. Who knows? Like, we don't really know a hundred percent what's going on there, but it kind of always fell to him, and it's still here, but I feel like this is more his team. than any other situation has been where ⁓ maybe that liquid roster, but that was still such a shit show. ⁓ yeah, I think this is like gonna be the maybe not the last stint, but I feel like the most telling version of twist IGLing. I think this is where we get to actually see is this like is is this his path forward or is this just something that keeps happening because maybe his own personality type where he ha he likes a secondary IGL and it just keeps happening that way. Or Maybe it's more so just he needs to realize that it just doesn't work out with him doing that and focus on the fragging. This will for sure like let us know, right? Like I I don't I can't think of an excuse, I guess, at this point, ⁓ if he doesn't perform IGLing. So I'd say yeah. The this will be kind of the last IGL sent for twist. At least for this.
speaker-1: If this goes south, do you think he's still gonna have value? Or even if it even if it goes okay, do you think he's still gonna have value after this IGL sin is just a standard rifler?
speaker-2: Yes.
speaker-0: Yeah, he's obviously yeah. Yeah. I think I think somebody would at least take a chance on him. There's no re that you'd be stupid not to. Like
speaker-1: He's okay.
speaker-2: Dude, I was I even th when FaZe were not performing, like the amount of games you would see Twist still popping off and like doing what he could. I feel like honestly he's just him and Frozen are just such a great combo of riflers that I just when you look at this other like sort of combo around FaZe, that's why I'm so excited to say Jabo and actually be a solid player. Is because I you don't want to see years or even ⁓ months being wasted. Of the talent level of Frozen and and Twists. Like they're just incredible players. So to waste any time of those players in their career is such a travesty. ⁓ so I think Fays need to figure it out as quickly as possible and hopefully these moves do pay off down the line because twist is I think gonna be a very important rifler just with the experience that he brings, even into the later stages of his career. Like even if his performance drops off, like If he can just adapt into more supportive element roles as well in the side of the teams, just the amount of experience, like how many trophies he's won, how many events, how many different teams he's been a part of, how many different team cultures, like th he's a very valuable asset, ⁓ that will always be worth picking up, I think. ⁓ until until unless something like what happened to Electronic happens, where it's like he becomes such an obvious toxic asset to the team where he goes into the team and it dies within a few seconds. I feel like ⁓ with with twists, it's like there's so much Upside to keeping him around, whether it's in the server or outside of the server, and right now it's so much upside inside the server as well.
speaker-0: When he's twenty six and frozen's twenty four. So like that's like that's yeah, that was probably the hardest part about Jason's framework for me, is I just I probably like this will be the biggest judgment of the IGL, but it's like ⁓ do I also think that maybe somebody if he wants to, if he like left phase, he'd probably still get another shot. So there we'll probably still be talking about it. So it's kind of like a weird in my head, I'm like, Well, does it really matter? ⁓ but I do think like I agree with Dinko. I think this has gotta be the window, right? Like this is just you have like if you're phase, that's why it's a little frustrating. to see the rookies in there, but also really exciting that they've shown that they're doing well is you have Twists and Frozen. Like he's like Frozen, the amount of experience he has. Frozen hasn't had a lot of success winning though. Or like a lot of as as like as much success as Twist. Twist has had a ton of success when you look at like how much he's done in the game. But there's still a twenty six year old and a twenty four year old. For in terms of the experience that they carry to their age, it's actually insane when you think about it. But that's why it feels like this team is kind of at least for me, I feel like it's almost like win now, right? Like they need to win right now because frozen is
speaker-1: I hope this isn't a win now lineup. Holy fuck, they're in trouble if this is win now.
speaker-0: But but it's that's ⁓ that's a conflicting part of my brain. Technic ⁓
speaker-2: So exactly. So like they don't even have stability right now on the roster.
speaker-0: That but that's that weird like conflict that I have in my head is I have a I have two veterans who are literally like one of them has won multiple grand slams with different teams and like been a major winner. The other one wants to do all of those things and has been on successful rosters and is one of the best riflers. And then we have three rookies and then like well, okay, two two and a half, whatever you want to say with Jacob, but like the you have like these newer players in there where they're showing glimpses of being good and it just kind of baits me into thinking I'm like, ⁓ maybe they can be like one of the top teams right now. They're not. Like I I'm not fucking losing my mind, but it's ⁓
speaker-2: I think they missed out on chances as well. Like from like Gizmy could have been a good move as well. Like if you if you're going to back Twist as an in-game leader, okay. But like the the sign that they didn't go out at least publicly and we've seen like any rumors of like other IGLs trying to come to FaZe shows that they really do want to either they don't actually know what's happening with FaZe long term or there's just like, Okay, well Twist, you are going to Inblique, we actually don't know its direction to go in right now, we're just gonna back you.
speaker-0: It's because of Frozen? You think sorry to cut you off? Just curious. Do you think it's because of Frozen? Because honestly, if I'm Faye's management, the biggest asset I had, in my opinion, was Frozen. And you didn't hear about any IGL coming in. Do you think that's influence? Like, I'm doing whatever I can to make Frozen be like how what keeps you here? Because if he goes and it was just twist there, it doesn't matter what happens next. That that that's dead, right? Yeah, it's dead. So I'm just wondering, do you guys think maybe
speaker-1: That's over.
speaker-0: Frozen's getting a little bit more say and it's less like some big management thing and more so frozen going like I trust twists and I wanna keep playing with twist kind of thing.
speaker-1: I'm one hundred percent ignorant to everything that happened behind closed doors, but I will say this. Frozen doesn't strike me as that kind of personality and person to like step into an office and really like flex that sort of power over over the roster. But who knows if he feels like it's gonna negatively impact his career? ⁓ sure. Even if they ask him and even if he said twists, like maybe if that happens, sure. Okay. Like whatever. You you're gonna listen to Frozen fair play. I think I think what's more likely is They probably thought about it to some degree to some extent and looked at twists and said who are the other IGLs they could've gone to get. Gizmy was one, but he was a very late revelation. Like his name wasn't even on the radar going into the major. It kinda
speaker-2: Another one shui but it's like or kicks out.
speaker-1: Shuey or Kixon would have been the other two names out there. And I think, you know, if you're giving me the choice between twists and shoey, ⁓ I to me that I mean Twist and ⁓ and Kixon, I think that that's like a little bit lateral. Like that's not a huge increase, is it? Like if you take Kixon over Twist as an IGL, that's not Like it feels like it's an improvement. An improvement on paper that wouldn't necessarily be realized in results, you know? He is like a true IGL, so in that sense you feel like it's an improvement. and I think that at that point you just go to twist and it's like, do you want to do this? Like it it's up to you, you know? And I think he probably said, Yeah, fuck it.
speaker-2: Yeah, I just I just feel like if I'm gonna be frustrated with FaZe this season. I just have a feeling like I just have a feeling we're just gonna be frustrated with them on I hate watching great players
speaker-1: Okay, we both.
speaker-2: No no no but I I have no example. Yeah, the the frustrating part is like I don't have any expectations of FaZe and that is the sad part. Like I want to have expectations of FaZe. They have they have two great players. They've got Frozen, they've got Twists, and these are players I don't want to see waste time ⁓ inside of the server. And I feel like I'm f ⁓ this roster, I feel like it's gonna be a waste of time. Like I feel
speaker-0: Phase is just European liquid, dude. I'm telling you, the Europeans are so used to this. So that's why you're so you you know how to handle the
speaker-2: Exactly.
speaker-1: I don't know. Twist twist is probably pretty used to it at this point.
speaker-2: Yeah, he went, Holy shit, I went from blue liquid to red liquid, right?
speaker-0: I'm telling you, man, that's like it it feels there's so many parallels I feel like at this point in terms of like what's going on. It's kinda crazy.
speaker-1: Here's a question, since we just stumbled upon it, since we now have this little bit of a tendency, how much would you would you look at this and say there's something going on with twists?
speaker-0: ⁓ absolutely. I've thought that for a little while, but it's also it's a it ⁓ it's absolutely impossible to ignore his success. That's like there there's like this weird feeling of like it it does feel like problems sometimes gravitate towards him, but people said the same thing about Alege where I just think in Counter Strike i in a game and in a ⁓ competitive scene where you are around other individuals as much as you are in CS on your team. That conflict is bound to like happen a bit more. And if you don't have like the right fit of personalities, it's not even that like one personality is like it's not always twist fault. It's just the combination of like who you put with twist doesn't work. And in the combination you put with Legion certain times doesn't work. Or like or the combination and it's not, you we're using NA players as examples. That's who I'm more familiar with. But there's definitely plenty of examples of this with European players as well, where you just see them, it's like, well, is it are they toxic? Are they, you know, it Like people just have we people have such a bad time, I think, like because we don't know what goes on behind closed doors, I think describing things. I just think that yes, like I think that he probably has a certain personality type that some people either work with or they don't. And I think that's very common with a lot of successful players, especially because find a way to win.
speaker-2: Confident, capable individuals. If you pla if you pair them with other confident, capable individuals, that's where they thrive. If you put put them in a team where it's just like young rookies with no confidence, shying away from big moments, shying away from making the play, that's where it all crumbles. It's like what happened when Grimm came into Team Liquid? It fell apart because he didn't come in with that confidence. He had the capabilities, but he didn't bring it all at the server, right? So it's like you put f twists in a roster like FaZe back in the day, it's like every single one of those players are so confident and capable and inside of the server, inside of the comms, and that's where players like Twist respect the individuals around them. And then Aligi's it gotta be the same thing. I mean you like that liquid team he went to was absolutely terrible in terms of like the competence level of some of the other players on his team. And I'm sure if you're a great player, it's like you're just looking around you're like, I can't believe I have to hold it together for the sake of this team. Like I'm getting paid to be on this team. I am a teammate of these players, but you know that you want someone different playing beside you. And you would just want them to be much more capable, much more confident and like stick their elbows out and fit in a little bit. And I I do feel like that is something that, you know, if if if Tw twist gets a team like that, I would I would say that he would just be fine.
speaker-1: Fuck that shit, dude. Fuck that shit. No, 'cause it's ⁓ 'cause I I understand that mentality and I I think that I think you're dead on. I think that's a mentality a lot of players have, but I fucking hate that mentality so much. I I despise it with every fiber in my body 'cause I sit there and I'm like it's like is this gonna be better or worse with you having this mentality in this situation? You like you know what I mean? Like yeah, maybe maybe you're right. But you being miserable and making everything miserable and making everything around you miserable because you're not happy with this means it's definitely not gonna fucking work and it's definitely just gonna get worse. So you might as I mean n then you just start do start to sound like the fucking boomer coach, but it is like a certain element of like I I am. It's like stopping being so frustrated that you can't even operate at the task at hand. Like your job your job is not playing video games, your job is to make this team better.
speaker-0: Say you're having flashbacks.
speaker-1: But my So it is now time to change the mentality and philosophy to say here is my task at hand is instead of bitching about this stuff, is improve him as much as I fucking can at this point.
speaker-2: My point my my counter well, I would say that you're absolutely right, and I don't think we can disagree on that. The only thing is when you look at moments throughout counter strike history, the question is, is that mentality even possible to develop if you have it naturally? Because or are these players burdened with having incredible individual skill and capabilities, but are they burdened with the fact that because of their mindset that they're locked in, they're only going to have patches of success? I mean you look at Elige what he had one patch of success that team Liquid Raw said that when it all comes together, when it is perfect, when it is that environment, they're gonna go and they're gonna be unstoppable for a period of time. You look at simple, I mean he's the same thing. Like he's endless teams where he's just looked around his teammates and just been like, Why is everybody so shit? I mean and then he gets that Navi team that are actually good for a patch of form and they win, but they don't win enough. Whereas Kerrigan is like the opposite mentality. He's like he can work with whatever he's got and that's why he's won so many with so many different players. And and I just feel like this ⁓ This lightning the bottle moment for these players is gonna be the the burden and th the curse that they've got is like their skill is so high, but you're not going to always have that. Like the you're not going to have the perfect coalescence of these individual players all coming together and so you are going to be given just one major title when you should have a multiple or go on these runs.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean it's ⁓ Flum Flum mentioned it earlier, hit it on the head, I think. ⁓ it's a it's a lot with players who especially as you mentioned have success. Once you have to like rebuild from success, once like you kind of have success and then like hit rock bottom or go back to the bottom of the mountain, have to build back up. I think sometimes players forget how much they had to work and how much of a slog it was to get to that point initially, like you looking back You only really remember the rosy moments. You only really remember and say, like, this was always gonna happen because this is the way I did my job and this is the way I worked and this is the way I got there. So if I do it again, it's gonna come back to us and then it's not coming back as fast as you might expect. And I think that's a lot of the frustration that comes out that that players that have had success in the past struggle to to deal with. It is it is a mentality thing, a hundred percent.
speaker-0: Sure. Yeah, so to bring it back around to twists, like yeah, I I do think like a part of it is I think it is part of him, but like it's ⁓ it's always a tricky thing, especially when you start talking about this like outside of like us three, or like where you get to larger group discussions is people that haven't been in competitive environments to that level of any kind, or even 'cause you don't necessarily need to be like I'm not saying you need to won tons of things, but just been in a really high end competitive environment.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: You start to realize that that's just what happens and how like it's not necessarily personal. I think where a lot of people, especially ⁓ these days, people get like lost in things is people can have conflict without it being on some deep personal level where in reality it's frustration from the competitive environment and the competitive situation that you're in with this other person. Happens at the magic
speaker-2: Table every night, Jason. It's not personal.
speaker-0: That's why magic's a great learning tool. But it's not to me. It's this Okay. I just think that happens with yes, the the successful players, when you are twists and you've won multiple grand slams and you've won a major, I think that when you just like you guys were describing, you look around, certain things are happening that you just don't think should be happening anymore. But you're not where you once were when you were winning those things, and you have to remember that and learn how to
speaker-2: He holds a grudge.
speaker-0: Basically build yourself back up again to where you previously were, while simultaneously kind of having that edge of like already being there. And that's also why, you know, you mentioned those different teams, Dinko, and that's why when you see their era end, you usually you don't ever see the it's not like we see them come back. That's why their errors, that's why everybody wants to try to predict one and call one out when they see one because you know it's a fleeting thing. It's not coming back because you'll then need a new assembly of players. And you know There's one player, you know, we're talking about like conflict with teammates and and see and rebuilding themselves. There's one player that's really an anomaly in this situation, and that is Rops. And that's because he saw what was happening with FaZe for six months, and they tried to keep signing him, and he knew that wasn't the right roster. And he knew exactly what Vitality needed and he could pinpoint it. So I wanted to just give him a shout out because I ⁓ maybe he didn't predict an error or like whatever was going on with Vitality, but he could identify what we're all describing, like in a way. Like it's it's quite interesting that we like Rops is probably one of the few players that has it been able to move that quickly and immediately find success, I'd say like multiple times.
speaker-2: Yeah, and and Carrigan as well. I think
speaker-1: Boys, really quick, sorry, I gotta the plumbers just pulled up here. I gotta step downstairs real quick.
speaker-0: That's okay. We're good. We got it from here. Yeah.
speaker-2: I think I think ⁓ you add in Karrigan into that conversation as well. Kerrigan Robs, two very special players and ⁓ I'd even say Nico, like is a little bit like that. Like he's had to rebuild rosters and be a part of and having to like go look like he's going to have it all and then be humbled and have to rebuild and bring in like how many i IGLs did he have to have in his teams that you're like, ⁓ these aren't these aren't gonna be the well how
speaker-0: Maybe, but some of those IGOs were you know, there was an Alexi B at there that wasn't I would say all that bad. ⁓
speaker-2: ⁓ no true, he de he definitely had some great ones. We also had Neo actually as the in game leader in his phase team, so then he was Nico Nico the IGL himself. ⁓ which wasn't great. But ⁓ he's got his major now, so there we go. Falcon's kind of falling off though. ⁓ that that one online loss.
speaker-0: I don't know. ⁓ Yeah, that's ⁓ it's all Doomer now, now that they lost their one online suit.
speaker-2: I'm kind of excited because like all the good teams apart from well Spirit didn't even play that great. All the good teams played bad and that's actually made me kind of really excited for going into the World Cup. It's like okay, we're all they're still all on an even playing field. Like everyone underperformed. It still has it feels like C the C S season still hasn't started yet. ⁓ and I think is a nice little build up.
speaker-0: Well, it's you had those teams that were like ⁓ you had the teams that were just like making the moves, right? They're making the moves and they're looking half decent and then the teams that kinda stayed the same or the top dogs that were successful kind of had a nice little dip. And I think ⁓ I think I think you're right. I think the World Cup, the East Esports World Cup, ⁓ will also be a really nice way to kind of segue from the bounty, especially with it being a better format than last time. And I heard they'll have some great casters there. I'm not sure who
speaker-2: Yeah, potentially, potentially gonna be there. ⁓ maybe like Flomland as well, potentially. ⁓
speaker-0: Potentially maybe. Potentially, maybe. You know, I heard those teams are I think actually did I announce them yet? You know, before well it Chris, did we announce it? Or like an hour or two that we'll be announcing the teams that'll be there. Actually, I could say what they are now, so I could that that's kind of fun. Cause you know, not that you wouldn't know, but like you could know, which is ⁓ let me see. Let me let me get the full list right here for you. But the teams are ba ba ba we're
speaker-2: That's gonna be fun.
speaker-0: Where is it? Where is it? I'm stupid and scrolling and I did too much of this stuff earlier today. Yeah, it'd be ⁓ eighty, Liquid, Energy, Voka, Wildcard, Chicken Coop for the NA teams, and then it'll be Dandele, who you just saw. ⁓ and it'll be Bestia. So
speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah, that should be a lot of fun. Okay, that's a great teams. Cool to see Liquid ⁓ coming as well. That's gonna be sick. That'll be a lot of fun.
speaker-0: Bit bittersweet to have liquid at my event. We'll just put it like that. It's a bit bittersweet.
speaker-2: Yeah, well hopefully the you know we we've been d nice to them on this episode. It's gonna be it's not gonna be awkward in person. It's gonna be great. Everyone's gonna be
speaker-0: I I rip into them all the time and when I talked with John one on one, he knows where it's coming from. That man is
speaker-2: I mean I I think the thing about Liquid is like everyone was kind of like, Yeah, fair enough, like we are pretty pretty bad right now. Like the they're they're not ⁓ trying to kid themselves. ⁓ so I'm happy that they actually got a little bit of a better performance coming up. I wonder what plumbing problem Jason has. Is it like a flood down there, do you reckon?
speaker-0: Honestly, I always thought Jason was the plumber, but like now I'm just kinda confused to be honest.
speaker-2: Soon as many things, yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, so many roles. But we won't wait for him to wrap it back up 'cause that'll be an incredibly long podcast. ⁓ this guy could be gone forever. He's
speaker-2: I think we should start the next episode with him finally going back up the stairs.
speaker-0: Just yeah, we start and he just comes up the trolling stairs, that'd be yes, that'd be incredible.
