Zero Dark Thirty

WEBVTT
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Hey everybody, and welcome to How to Make Films
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that Influence People with Peter and Andrew,
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where we talk about our own approach to screenwriting
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and filmmaking, discuss great works of cinema,
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and blasphemously imagine how they could be remade.
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This week, we'll be talking about Zero Dark Thirty,
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catching up on what we've been watching, answering
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a question. But first of all, I'm Peter, successful
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filmmaker, film professor, and screenwriter,
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and this is Andrew. Screenwriter, filmmaker,
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but not a CIA counterintelligence agent by choice.
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Okay. That was a hot job at one point. Man, and
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I've got a lot to talk about. Not that I am,
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but living where I live, I know a lot of people
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with interesting jobs, so we got some stuff to
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discuss. But first of all, yeah, let's see. We've
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been watching a lot of great films. We watched
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a recent film. Before we get into what we've
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been watching, we talked about The Uprising recently
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as a first in a... Sort of series or first in
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a new thing we're doing where we're gonna be
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watching some more current films We had a question
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come in from Jerry writing about the uprising
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said I went to see the uprising It was very disappointed.
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I thought your review was spot -on, but I I did
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not like the film I feel like I wasted my time
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in the theater Do you do you feel frustrated
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with going to the theater and seeing a bad movie?
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How do you choose which movies you'll actually
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go to the theater for? I think that's a good
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question. It's a, you know, which, what is, you
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know, it used to be in decades ago, people could
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only see movies in the theaters and, uh, you
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know, you know, taste change and whatnot. But
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how do you, what's, I guess, A, do you feel frustrated
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when you see a bad movie and B, like, how do
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you decide what you're going to see in the theater
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versus at home? That's a good question. Cause
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the theater is definitely a different experience.
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I feel like for watching a movie, it's a better
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experience in a lot of ways, but it can be ruined.
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by people around you or just, uh, like just being
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a terrible movie. I don't think I've ever walked
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out. Maybe I have walked out of a movie in a
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theater. I've done it at home or I'll be watching.
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I'm like, Nope, I'm done with this, whatever
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this is. But in a theater, it's a little different.
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Have you ever walked out on one? I have, I've
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walked out on, uh, there was a film called, uh,
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I've actually walked out on a couple of films,
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but I, Oh, I did walk out on, uh, long legs.
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I did like it, but it was too scary for me. You're
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walking out like, this is a good film, I'm just
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scared. I later revisited it at home and I was
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like, okay, no, this is good. But I was like,
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I was not in the mood for just how creepy that
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film was. And I've walked out of worse films
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as well a couple of times. The math is a little
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different. And that's one thing that I do like
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about going to a theater is that it's a higher
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cost to walking out. You've paid the money. Even
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if you have a movie pass or something, it still
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is a bigger deal to have gone to the theater.
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And I actually feel like that's often a good
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thing because you want to see the movie through.
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And I feel like sometimes you'll give a movie
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at home five minutes and then move on, and you
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won't really give it a chance. And so I do like
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that. Do you get upset though if you see a bad
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movie like do you feel like you like this is
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wasting my hard -earned money and my time I Feel
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like it is worse in a theater because it's like
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there are so many other films you could have
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seen I don't maybe not a ton more But it's like
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I could have chosen this other one and it definitely
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would have been better than this, right? So I
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I feel like at home you watch it You can turn
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off whenever you don't want to walk out on a
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movie in a theater though It is a little bit
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of a risk But I think it's worth it for a lot
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of times because how many times have you gone
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in true movie? And it's like, you didn't know.
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And then it just blows you away. And you're like,
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oh, that was incredible. It's like this high
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risk reward situation, a little bit more than
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at home, that I think is a little more fun. Yeah.
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Yeah, I think that's true. So if you're deciding
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which films to go see, what's your mental math
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in terms of, this is one I can wait for versus
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this is one I want to go see in the theater.
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Or is it just, this week I'm in the mood for
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a movie. So I'll go see whatever's available.
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If it's, that's the thing, if it's a big blockbuster,
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you know, like the Odyssey, I got to see it in
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a theater. You can't wait on that one. There
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are some films you're like, ah, I'll just wait
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for streaming for that to come out. But sometimes
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you just want to see a movie in a theater. And
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I often just go to reviews like what's the best
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chance I have here of getting something good.
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But there is the fun of going in blind, which
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I did recently in a film we'll talk about when
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we talk about, you know, what we've watched.
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But I thought sometimes it's just fun to go in
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blind. And it's just like, you can get like a
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really fun experience doing that. Just not knowing
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anything and just going in. Do you try to do
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that? Going blind? I don't go in too blind. I
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guess, I guess it's a big enough production for
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me to be able to go to see a movie, you know,
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arranging different things on the home front
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to get out to see one that I usually want to
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go see something good, except sometimes it's
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like, you know, my wife will be home, you know,
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like the kids will be all like, taking care of
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it. It's like, go now. Like this is your window.
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And I'm like, I don't know what's available,
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but I'm just going to see something right now.
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But I do think, I think a lot of people look
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for the big epics and, you know, the Odyssey,
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great example of a, you know, one you have to
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see in the theaters, I think. But I also find
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the quieter movies, like a quiet, good drama.
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I really like seeing those in theaters, because
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I'm going to give it my attention. And I think
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there's some movies where if I can give it my
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full attention, I'm really going to like it.
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And if I'm watching that at home and there are
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too many other distractions, I just might not
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be able to fully experience it. So I sort of
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this barbell of the biggest, loudest action movies
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or whatever I want to see in the theater. And
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then the quietest movies that might have trouble
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keeping my attention at home, I want to see in
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the theater. It's a good point. They're kind
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of just like a captive audience. It's dark. There's
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not community noise. That's all you got to focus
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on. That's a good way to see something. I wonder
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like how many of the movies we've done, like
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we watched a mirror. Would I have enjoyed that
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more in a theater versus at home? Just because
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it's such like a contemplative film where you
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just really need to focus. Sometimes that can
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help. That's a good point. That's a good point.
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Well, I think it's a good question. Like what,
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what do you, how do you think that through? I
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just, I would. put in a word for going to the
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theaters, though. I think it can be expensive.
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It can be a hassle. But it's just a different
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experience seeing it on a big screen. But to
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me, the biggest difference isn't even the screen
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or the sound. It's the dedicated focus on the
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film. And I really like that about going to the
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theaters. All right. Well, thank you for the
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question, Jerry. We hope to be able to review
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a new film a little better than The Uprising
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coming up. But keep listening. So now, Andrew,
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what have you been watching? Yeah, this week
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I was at an expo for work. It was in Las Vegas
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and the hotel we were staying at had a movie
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theater in it. And so at the end of the day,
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I was like, I'm just going to go see what's going
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on right now that I can go see. And it turned
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out it was Resident Evil, the new Resident Evil
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movie. I've never seen a Resident Evil film before.
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I've never played the game. I went in knowing
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basically nothing other than it's supposed to
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be some type of horror movie. And I really enjoy
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this. This was like a lot of fun. It does play
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on like the video game genre a little bit. It
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does feel like that, which I thought was fun.
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You have like these, these scenes that will set
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up and then it's like we're moving location and
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now it's the monster is going to be a little
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bit different. And then the way that you get
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out of this situation, it's like this whole new
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skill you got to learn and this creative way
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of getting in and out of things. And you kind
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of travel from like driving on this, on this,
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on this road in the wintertime to a house, to
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a tunnel, to a city, to. all these different
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things of like getting through this building
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up and over and all these like creative ways
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of throwing obstacles at him. But I think the
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fun thing was that the main character is pretty,
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he's got a lot of humor to him. He doesn't take
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things too seriously. And so it's like a fun
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way to get through is because the horror is pretty
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strong. The gore, a lot of gore. There's some
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good jump scares. Like this is not for the faint
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of heart. I don't think this movie, but like
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the monsters are pretty intense and everything
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seems like very serious, but there's this always
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this layer of comedy to it that I felt like really
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helped you get through this. Um, and I thought
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it was just like a fun, great action. I really
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enjoyed it. It was especially fun in a theater
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with a crowd of other people, like really into
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it, sitting there like, Oh, don't do that. Like,
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Oh no, you know, like that's always fun for a
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horror movie. So I liked it. Oh, that's great.
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And you, did you Did you feel like it was better
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going in blind or should you have known something
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beforehand? Yeah, cuz I didn't and I think I
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really enjoyed it I'd imagine if you know the
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franchise you would still have a good time. I
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I don't know that you can really ruin this one
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unless it's just like this the fun of seeing
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it with people I think was a big part of it and
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it's by the guy who did a Movie was it weapons
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and barbarian? Oh, yeah. Yeah, is that Kroeger?
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Did he do, yeah, he do weapons. Barbarian, I
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like this better than Barbarian. I still haven't
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seen weapons though, but. Oh, you like this better
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than Barbarian, okay. Yeah, this is a little
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more action and fun, I think. That would be interesting
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though, because Barbarian is not your typical
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kind of horror film, I think, but to bring that
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kind of, well, it plays into a lot of horror
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film stuff, but it's, I really like Barbarian,
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but to bring that kind of sensibility to this,
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I'll have to check this out. Did not it's like
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it's one of many sequels, right? It's not aren't
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there Yeah, I looked it up. There's like eight
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of these or so. I don't know. There's a lot of
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these films I haven't seen any have you seen
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any other ones? No, you know anything about the
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franchise. I I wouldn't have thought it would
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be that great. But now I Now I maybe I'll check
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it out. Yeah, it's fun I saw a different film
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called the breadwinner, which stars Nate Bargatze
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and Yeah, this one. It's a fun It's a fun sort
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of like throwback kind of film. I mean, I think
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it's interesting because the idea of it's sort
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of a more old fashioned at this point idea that,
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you know, the dad is the guy who goes to work
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and then suddenly the mom is at work and now
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he needs to help out around the house and take
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care of everything. And he's just clueless. It
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was kind of a kind of a throwback. I mean, I
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think there still are lots of Families like like
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in that such like with the the dad generally
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going to work And and then if he were to be in
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charge of everything at home He would be kind
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of clueless, but it does seem a little bit more
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like a 1980s style plot line and You know, I
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I always think of like they don't actually do
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this in the movie But my my go -to line is just
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pouring pancake batter in the toaster Is that
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what the dad thinks you're supposed to do? You're
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right. And it's that kind of stuff, just making
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ridiculous decisions about how to run the house.
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But I thought it was really fun. I like Nate
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Bargatze as a comedian, and a lot of the film
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is really drawing on specific things from his
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life, but also specific bits that he's done as
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a comedian. And they do a lot to show that he
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was already a good dad before, which I think...
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to some extent is good if you want to think of
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Nate Bargatze as a great guy, which I think is
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probably a high priority in this film. He doesn't
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want to sacrifice his... I don't think he's that
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interested in acting that he wants to sacrifice
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his general reputation to suddenly look like
00:12:11.830 --> 00:12:14.950
a bad guy. So I think the film goes a long way
00:12:14.950 --> 00:12:17.470
to say he was a good dad before, but he focused
00:12:17.470 --> 00:12:20.429
on work. Now he's a good dad as he's trying to
00:12:20.429 --> 00:12:24.169
raise the family. And I think... to some extent
00:12:24.169 --> 00:12:27.730
that undercuts like some of the the path like
00:12:27.730 --> 00:12:30.210
it could have been a stronger kind of story to
00:12:30.210 --> 00:12:33.009
have him have to really grow and change how he
00:12:33.009 --> 00:12:34.990
looks at the family and things like that or change
00:12:34.990 --> 00:12:37.389
how he looks at his responsibilities to the family
00:12:37.389 --> 00:12:41.509
but i just think it's a light -hearted fun family
00:12:41.509 --> 00:12:45.559
film that i would uh I don't think it's groundbreaking.
00:12:45.779 --> 00:12:47.460
I don't think it's like the funniest movie I've
00:12:47.460 --> 00:12:50.460
ever seen. But I think a family could watch this.
00:12:50.659 --> 00:12:53.259
Everybody would like it. And there's lots to
00:12:53.259 --> 00:12:57.179
laugh at during it. So I would definitely encourage
00:12:57.179 --> 00:12:59.799
people to see it. Just knowing that it's not
00:12:59.799 --> 00:13:02.519
going to be one that people write lots of essays
00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:04.980
about probably. Yeah, a movie that comes out
00:13:04.980 --> 00:13:07.120
that like the whole family can go to that's not
00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:09.779
animated doesn't happen that often anymore. So
00:13:09.779 --> 00:13:12.000
it's kind of nice to have those. Yeah. I think,
00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:14.080
and I think it totally fits that bill. And it's
00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:17.399
like the, the family, like the importance of
00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:20.799
the family is never in question. Uh, there's
00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:23.580
not a lot of like resentment between the couple.
00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:26.720
So I think, which again is a little bit like,
00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:30.360
They're just not digging very deep into the reality
00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:32.600
of the people. But I think that's part of the
00:13:32.600 --> 00:13:34.159
point of the film. We're keeping this at a pretty
00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:37.639
superficial level. And what happens if X, Y,
00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:39.679
and Z falls apart while he's trying to watch
00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:42.679
the house? So I think it's fun for what it is.
00:13:42.700 --> 00:13:44.500
And I would definitely encourage people to see
00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:47.220
it if you're in the mood for a good family film.
00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:50.740
All right, so now on the topic of good family
00:13:50.740 --> 00:13:54.929
films, Zero Dark Thirty, which... I actually
00:13:54.929 --> 00:13:58.009
went to with a newborn baby when it came out.
00:13:58.129 --> 00:14:02.649
It was like, in the Babybjorn, there was a brief
00:14:02.649 --> 00:14:05.149
window where my baby would just sleep through
00:14:05.149 --> 00:14:08.070
anything. And so I could still go to movies for
00:14:08.070 --> 00:14:11.470
a little while. And then the next 12 years has
00:14:11.470 --> 00:14:14.250
been different. But I did actually take a baby
00:14:14.250 --> 00:14:17.980
to see Zero Dark Thirty. That's funny. Zero Dark
00:14:17.980 --> 00:14:19.340
Thirty though, yeah. Tell us about this, Andrew.
00:14:20.620 --> 00:14:25.149
2012, directed by Catherine Bigelow. Uh, a chronicle
00:14:25.149 --> 00:14:27.509
of the decade long hunt for Al Qaeda terrorist
00:14:27.509 --> 00:14:30.690
leader Osama bin Laden after the September, 2001
00:14:30.690 --> 00:14:34.379
attacks and his death at the hands of Navy seal
00:14:34.379 --> 00:14:37.940
team six in May of 2011. So it does span this
00:14:37.940 --> 00:14:42.259
like 10 years, about 2001 to 2011, which is a
00:14:42.259 --> 00:14:45.860
big timeframe for a movie to cover. And it's
00:14:45.860 --> 00:14:50.139
a lot of details about how this case unfolds,
00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:52.799
kind of this detective work, how she's finding
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:55.470
things. We'll probably get in like we'll get
00:14:55.470 --> 00:14:58.190
into all of that I think right off the bat though
00:14:58.190 --> 00:15:01.029
this movie has such to me It felt like a really
00:15:01.029 --> 00:15:03.929
strong opener where it's a black screen and you
00:15:03.929 --> 00:15:07.850
get like real audio from September 11th And it's
00:15:07.850 --> 00:15:10.169
kind of like this emotional moment of like oh,
00:15:10.169 --> 00:15:12.690
yeah Like set us put us in the mindset of what
00:15:12.690 --> 00:15:15.409
September 11th was to like set the stage without
00:15:15.409 --> 00:15:19.409
showing anything and Then it transfers into this
00:15:19.409 --> 00:15:22.259
interrogation scene if you want to call it an
00:15:22.259 --> 00:15:26.389
interrogation. And it's like connecting these
00:15:26.389 --> 00:15:30.110
two, like this horrific event to where we are
00:15:30.110 --> 00:15:32.830
now and what's going on and kind of like this
00:15:32.830 --> 00:15:35.110
juxtaposition of those two things. How did you
00:15:35.110 --> 00:15:38.629
think that opening sequence went for you? I thought,
00:15:38.850 --> 00:15:42.610
yeah. It is a powerful, I mean, it's such an
00:15:42.610 --> 00:15:45.870
interesting opening because that phone conversation,
00:15:46.289 --> 00:15:50.490
I think a woman's calling 911 operator and, uh,
00:15:50.190 --> 00:15:53.090
You know, and it's just this human emotion it's
00:15:53.090 --> 00:15:55.950
just so emotional to think back on that time
00:15:55.950 --> 00:15:58.009
and and putting yourself in the shoes of that
00:15:58.009 --> 00:16:02.799
woman and And then it goes straight into this
00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:05.980
enhanced interrogation slash torture scene where
00:16:05.980 --> 00:16:08.580
we have who's supposed to be one of our main
00:16:08.870 --> 00:16:12.610
like lead characters is the one torturing right
00:16:12.610 --> 00:16:15.169
from the beginning. Right from the beginning.
00:16:15.370 --> 00:16:17.509
And so I think that's a really strong statement
00:16:17.509 --> 00:16:19.149
that the film is doing right from the beginning.
00:16:20.529 --> 00:16:22.529
And we'll talk more about that, but I think one
00:16:22.529 --> 00:16:24.529
interesting thing about the opening itself, I
00:16:24.529 --> 00:16:28.690
think they do a little bit to establish like
00:16:28.690 --> 00:16:33.269
September 11th, like this horrible tragedy, crime.
00:16:33.929 --> 00:16:36.909
uh, murder happened. And so everything is going
00:16:36.909 --> 00:16:39.549
to come out of that after this. This is, so we're,
00:16:39.710 --> 00:16:41.389
we're giving some grounding for what's happening,
00:16:42.070 --> 00:16:44.929
which I think is important, but it, it is interesting.
00:16:45.350 --> 00:16:47.490
I mean, they spend like a minute on it and they
00:16:47.490 --> 00:16:49.549
don't, they don't show a lot. They like, and
00:16:49.549 --> 00:16:52.870
then they get straight into. into the interrogation
00:16:52.870 --> 00:16:55.429
as opposed to we're gonna spend the first act
00:16:55.429 --> 00:16:57.590
getting to know and love these characters and
00:16:57.590 --> 00:16:59.649
then see them all die and now we need revenge
00:16:59.649 --> 00:17:02.149
for that. It's really interesting that it gets
00:17:02.149 --> 00:17:05.430
so quickly into the interrogation. But I would
00:17:05.430 --> 00:17:07.910
say one interesting thing that I thought about,
00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:13.650
one of the big challenges of this film is that
00:17:13.650 --> 00:17:16.670
especially when it came out, everybody knows
00:17:16.670 --> 00:17:19.069
how it's gonna end. Bin Laden had been killed.
00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:21.680
They're going to find him. They're going to kill
00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:25.200
him. And so that's like, we know what's going
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:28.079
to happen. And yet the whole point of the movie
00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:30.839
is we're experiencing it in the moment as people
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:33.480
are trying, like as people are working on that.
00:17:33.819 --> 00:17:36.980
And I think there's something about the specific
00:17:36.980 --> 00:17:39.000
dialogue that they chose. I mean, the specific
00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:40.440
audio that they use, they could have used, I'm
00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:44.200
sure lots of different audio for the September
00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:47.119
11th audio, but there's something about this
00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:50.869
person, not Not knowing what's gonna happen and
00:17:50.869 --> 00:17:54.369
it's like am I going to die? I mean, it's a it's
00:17:54.369 --> 00:17:58.809
just so sad and so moving but I think it's also
00:17:58.809 --> 00:18:01.710
thematically tied into we know what's going to
00:18:01.710 --> 00:18:04.109
happen and still it is having this effect on
00:18:04.109 --> 00:18:07.190
us and Or especially it's having this effect
00:18:07.190 --> 00:18:09.210
on us because we know what's gonna happen And
00:18:09.210 --> 00:18:10.950
I think that's kind of setting the stage for
00:18:10.950 --> 00:18:13.490
what the whole film is about You know how it's
00:18:13.490 --> 00:18:16.990
going to end and yet the journey there is what
00:18:16.990 --> 00:18:19.359
we're sort of exploring Right. And I wonder if
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:21.319
that would, you know, that opening would work
00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:24.460
if it didn't take place. So recent to the event
00:18:24.460 --> 00:18:26.859
happening, you know, this is 10 years, 11 years
00:18:26.859 --> 00:18:31.180
after nine 11, if you were to do like a civil
00:18:31.180 --> 00:18:32.940
war film or something, you know, you would need
00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:35.019
a little bit more setup for the average audience
00:18:35.019 --> 00:18:37.180
member to understand what's going on. But at
00:18:37.180 --> 00:18:39.660
this point, it's like everybody is still living
00:18:39.660 --> 00:18:41.779
in it. Like the aftermath is still so clear.
00:18:41.900 --> 00:18:44.019
It's a different time. I mean, you feel like
00:18:44.019 --> 00:18:45.480
go back then, like it's just totally different.
00:18:45.930 --> 00:18:49.490
feeling of everything that everybody knew. And
00:18:49.490 --> 00:18:50.950
like, if you're going into this, you already
00:18:50.950 --> 00:18:53.490
know, you don't need to explain September 11th
00:18:53.490 --> 00:18:55.509
to the audience really for your, what your target
00:18:55.509 --> 00:18:58.130
audience is. Whereas I feel like, you know, if
00:18:58.130 --> 00:19:00.029
this was made about an older period in time,
00:19:00.049 --> 00:19:01.569
you would probably have to do that. So they kind
00:19:01.569 --> 00:19:03.869
of do play with that of like on the one side,
00:19:04.049 --> 00:19:06.609
everybody knows how this ends on the other side.
00:19:06.809 --> 00:19:09.410
We can really lean into not having to give you
00:19:09.410 --> 00:19:11.369
all the details we would otherwise and just get
00:19:11.369 --> 00:19:13.630
right into the story. And so I think they, they
00:19:13.630 --> 00:19:16.710
kind of play off. like the best of both worlds
00:19:16.710 --> 00:19:18.809
of what they can do with this film. Yeah, and
00:19:18.809 --> 00:19:21.089
I think that's it's interesting watching it now.
00:19:21.549 --> 00:19:24.230
And, you know, for me watching it now, it's different
00:19:24.230 --> 00:19:27.430
than if I watched it 15 years ago. But for somebody
00:19:27.430 --> 00:19:29.650
who's much younger, I don't know exactly what
00:19:29.650 --> 00:19:31.369
the experience would be like watching it now.
00:19:31.789 --> 00:19:35.210
But it's it's I mean, September 11th, I was in
00:19:35.210 --> 00:19:40.259
college, and it was such a, I was not nearby.
00:19:40.460 --> 00:19:42.279
I knew people in New York, but it was, you know,
00:19:42.339 --> 00:19:45.480
but I was not very connected personally to the
00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:49.819
events. But I think people, it's just an interesting
00:19:49.819 --> 00:19:52.420
thing of like, as we move forward in time, there
00:19:52.420 --> 00:19:56.279
are certain facts that you can learn about that
00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:59.880
are true, but like that, but that you learn about,
00:19:59.900 --> 00:20:02.079
and that's your picture of the history of what
00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:04.380
happened. But when you were experiencing things
00:20:04.380 --> 00:20:07.680
in real time, there are parts of it that might
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.000
not be remembered by history in the same way.
00:20:10.380 --> 00:20:13.660
Like, for instance, you know, these planes hit
00:20:13.660 --> 00:20:16.460
in the Pentagon, one in Pennsylvania, and then
00:20:16.460 --> 00:20:19.200
two in the World Trade Center. And that we know
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:21.819
that that happened now. But at the time, you
00:20:21.819 --> 00:20:23.420
didn't know how many more planes there could
00:20:23.420 --> 00:20:25.440
be. You didn't know what else was going to happen.
00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:29.099
You didn't know. So part of that moment, wasn't
00:20:29.099 --> 00:20:31.140
just, well, we know exactly what happened. We
00:20:31.140 --> 00:20:33.660
know the scope of what happened. It was also
00:20:33.660 --> 00:20:35.700
not knowing how much bigger and worse it could
00:20:35.700 --> 00:20:38.819
be. And there was a lot of, I mean, the conversations
00:20:38.819 --> 00:20:41.799
I was having with my family and loved ones was,
00:20:41.819 --> 00:20:45.140
you know, is Chicago gonna be next? Is this city
00:20:45.140 --> 00:20:47.220
gonna be next? Like, what's gonna happen next?
00:20:47.579 --> 00:20:51.680
And that kind of thinking is lost to time because
00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:54.519
when Chicago doesn't get hit, it now seems like
00:20:54.519 --> 00:20:57.359
that was never a thing. people in Chicago were
00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:59.160
worried that it was going to be Chicago next,
00:20:59.259 --> 00:21:02.339
you know, and it is that kind of thinking. And
00:21:02.339 --> 00:21:05.440
I remember that, you know, there's a certain
00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:06.900
number of people who were killed on September
00:21:06.900 --> 00:21:12.319
11th, about 3000, I think, but they didn't know
00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.079
immediately how many people had been killed because
00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:18.420
they, you know, they couldn't find people. And
00:21:18.420 --> 00:21:21.230
I remember people were saying, We're ordering
00:21:21.230 --> 00:21:24.390
50 ,000 body bags because we were just going
00:21:24.390 --> 00:21:26.569
off of how many people would have been in the
00:21:26.569 --> 00:21:29.089
world trade center. Anyway, this is, this is
00:21:29.089 --> 00:21:32.970
all just to say the experience. If you were there
00:21:32.970 --> 00:21:35.369
and not there, I wasn't anywhere nearby, but
00:21:35.369 --> 00:21:38.450
like just being alive and aware at the time was
00:21:38.450 --> 00:21:40.630
so different than now just looking back at it
00:21:40.630 --> 00:21:43.589
as a historical event, which is true for any
00:21:43.589 --> 00:21:45.769
kind of historical event. But this is one that
00:21:45.769 --> 00:21:48.880
has been part of my life as I've been aware of.
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:51.160
So it's, it's interesting watching the film then.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:53.599
Cause if you, if you didn't live through that,
00:21:53.980 --> 00:21:57.259
I wonder how this film hits for you, how, how
00:21:57.259 --> 00:21:59.680
you'd relate to it without like having the context
00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:02.960
of like being alive at the time. I remember my
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:05.380
grandma, like always remember the dates of every
00:22:05.380 --> 00:22:06.940
world war two event. She'd be like, Oh, today
00:22:06.940 --> 00:22:09.779
is the Pearl Harbor day. Today is D -Day. And
00:22:09.779 --> 00:22:11.839
like, she would just like remember these days.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:15.279
I'm like, Oh yeah. Like I, I know them kind of
00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:16.740
vaguely, but I'm not like, they're not like.
00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:19.480
In core, like in my memory, I'm like, oh yeah,
00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:21.279
she lived through world war two though. Like
00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:24.180
this is why this is like a huge deal to her.
00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:27.099
And then as time goes by, you have generations,
00:22:27.099 --> 00:22:28.619
you're just farther and farther removed where
00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:30.779
it's like, I can watch a movie about world war
00:22:30.779 --> 00:22:33.079
two. I can read about it. I know the history,
00:22:33.220 --> 00:22:35.039
but if you didn't live through it, there's something
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:37.319
you're just missing inherently missing that you
00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:39.980
can never get from the people that were there
00:22:39.980 --> 00:22:42.440
at the time. And I feel like this film does kind
00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:46.539
of, it feels very much like it was made. in the
00:22:46.539 --> 00:22:49.140
time, for the time, by the people who live through
00:22:49.140 --> 00:22:51.720
it. And I don't know what that says about how
00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:54.660
it's gonna age, but I do think it's still kind
00:22:54.660 --> 00:22:57.299
of a powerful film for people who were there,
00:22:57.339 --> 00:22:59.539
you know, or were alive when this happened. There's
00:22:59.539 --> 00:23:01.779
something to that. Yeah. And I think, you know,
00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:04.440
on a filmmaking level, you can't really make
00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:07.079
a film for the future. You have to make a film
00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:09.299
for the time that you're in. I mean, I think
00:23:09.299 --> 00:23:12.299
the best way to future -proof it is to just...
00:23:12.029 --> 00:23:15.289
good story structure, like good characters, like
00:23:15.289 --> 00:23:19.089
tell the story well, but I don't think you have
00:23:19.089 --> 00:23:22.009
any control over how history is gonna wrap and
00:23:22.009 --> 00:23:25.190
change and like view things in the future compared
00:23:25.190 --> 00:23:28.809
to when you made it. One, you know, this is skipping
00:23:28.809 --> 00:23:30.869
ahead to the end, but one thing that I think
00:23:30.869 --> 00:23:33.890
has changed in how somebody would watch this
00:23:33.890 --> 00:23:36.950
film now, the film is basically like two hours
00:23:36.950 --> 00:23:40.339
of Maya, played by Jessica Chastain, investigating,
00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:43.140
trying to track down information. There's lots
00:23:43.140 --> 00:23:45.000
of interrogations. There's lots of meeting with
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:47.279
people. There's attempted meeting with people,
00:23:47.299 --> 00:23:49.900
and then people get blown up and all this. But
00:23:49.900 --> 00:23:52.460
it's all basically this detective search, this
00:23:52.460 --> 00:23:56.200
hunt. And then the last maybe half hour of the
00:23:56.200 --> 00:23:59.200
film is that it suddenly becomes an action film
00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:02.440
where it's about the SEAL team going in to kill
00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:07.039
Bin Laden in Abbottabad. Maya's not even there.
00:24:07.220 --> 00:24:09.519
She's not even part of that, which is really
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:12.359
interesting. But I think what's part of what's
00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:14.259
interesting about that in the ending is that
00:24:14.259 --> 00:24:16.920
we are introduced just at the very end of the
00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:19.279
film to these characters who are the seals who
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:22.920
are gonna go in and do this. And like the, we
00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:24.579
haven't met them before. We haven't built them
00:24:24.579 --> 00:24:26.759
up as these are gonna be the heroes of our story.
00:24:27.140 --> 00:24:28.900
They're just brought in as the professionals
00:24:28.900 --> 00:24:32.470
who are gonna do this. But. It's interesting
00:24:32.470 --> 00:24:34.670
now that Chris Pratt is one of them and Joel
00:24:34.670 --> 00:24:37.789
Edgerton is one of them like I They weren't cast
00:24:37.789 --> 00:24:39.910
because they were big stars. They became big
00:24:39.910 --> 00:24:42.190
stars. They were not big stars at the time Yeah,
00:24:42.470 --> 00:24:44.049
and so I think it's interesting if you watch
00:24:44.049 --> 00:24:46.230
it now You'll be like, whoa, the biggest star
00:24:46.230 --> 00:24:48.630
in the movie only appears in the last half hour.
00:24:48.950 --> 00:24:52.069
That's not really how the movie was made Yes,
00:24:52.089 --> 00:24:53.829
like if you watch an old film and it's like Robert
00:24:53.829 --> 00:24:55.529
De Niro shows up at the end You're like wait
00:24:55.529 --> 00:24:58.190
what the big was he not big, you know, like I
00:24:58.190 --> 00:24:59.950
guess he's not Robert De Niro, but you know,
00:25:00.049 --> 00:25:01.670
like these are big movie stars that you would
00:25:01.670 --> 00:25:04.349
think would be, would lead these films. But,
00:25:04.650 --> 00:25:06.990
uh, it's, and that's, that's like Jessica Chastain.
00:25:07.150 --> 00:25:09.690
I feel like this was maybe her intro. Like this
00:25:09.690 --> 00:25:11.829
feel like the big movie that everybody knew her
00:25:11.829 --> 00:25:14.670
from here on out of like, okay, she's legit actress
00:25:14.670 --> 00:25:17.730
here. I didn't know about her before this, but
00:25:17.730 --> 00:25:19.890
she's been like in a lot of stuff since then.
00:25:20.230 --> 00:25:22.720
Um, but she, She's like this main character,
00:25:22.819 --> 00:25:24.740
like you said, that we follow. And then it's
00:25:24.740 --> 00:25:27.539
all these people that come and go. And sometimes
00:25:27.539 --> 00:25:29.380
they come, sometimes they, they go and then they
00:25:29.380 --> 00:25:31.059
don't come back. Sometimes they do come back
00:25:31.059 --> 00:25:33.519
and it's like, we did introduce to people and
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:35.799
it just kind of doesn't matter. You know, where,
00:25:35.940 --> 00:25:37.500
what is their story arc? Where are they going?
00:25:37.619 --> 00:25:39.720
Where are they now? We just don't care because
00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:44.000
it's all about, uh, the Maya character and basically
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:47.299
her obsession with finding Osama bin Laden. And
00:25:47.299 --> 00:25:50.490
then. how it happens like with these other side
00:25:50.490 --> 00:25:52.529
characters is kind of just like, okay, yeah,
00:25:52.549 --> 00:25:54.369
this is just how it's done practically. Like
00:25:54.369 --> 00:25:56.150
somebody has to go in there and do it. So they're
00:25:56.150 --> 00:25:58.490
going to go and do it. But the story is kind
00:25:58.490 --> 00:26:00.970
of her obsession. And at the end of the film,
00:26:01.210 --> 00:26:03.309
you know, like, where are you going? That idea
00:26:03.309 --> 00:26:05.410
of, you know, what are you going to do now that
00:26:05.410 --> 00:26:06.549
you've been obsessed with it your whole life?
00:26:06.549 --> 00:26:09.009
You got it. And it's kind of a representation
00:26:09.009 --> 00:26:11.849
of, okay, America, we got Osama bin Laden. Now
00:26:11.849 --> 00:26:14.559
what, you know, like, We got revenge for this
00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:16.920
attack. What are we doing now? And it kind of
00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:19.480
just is very open ended of what does that mean?
00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:22.579
Where are we going from here? But it is like
00:26:22.579 --> 00:26:24.960
on one level, okay, we're telling a story, but
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:26.640
it seems like the theme, the emotional heart
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:29.920
of this is like this obsession of we have one
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:32.740
focus, one goal. We're going to do it. Okay.
00:26:32.740 --> 00:26:35.779
You did it. Now what? And that's kind of an interesting
00:26:35.779 --> 00:26:38.500
way to end a film on that kind of a dump. Yeah.
00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:42.880
It's weird because the film. And it's interesting,
00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:49.099
it's not very fun. And I think a lot of people
00:26:49.099 --> 00:26:51.619
might watch it and think, okay, this is the movie
00:26:51.619 --> 00:26:54.019
where they show hunting down Bin Laden. And that
00:26:54.019 --> 00:26:56.180
sequence, I think delivers on what you would
00:26:56.180 --> 00:27:00.220
want an action movie about that to show. And
00:27:00.220 --> 00:27:01.940
then we come back to Maya and it's just sort
00:27:01.940 --> 00:27:03.799
of like, I don't know what's next. I don't know
00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:06.869
where to go. And I think that the movie and the
00:27:06.869 --> 00:27:09.470
fact that it starts off with the enhanced interrogation
00:27:09.470 --> 00:27:12.329
torture scene that that happens so frequently
00:27:12.329 --> 00:27:16.970
and that they're like the film is grim and we
00:27:16.970 --> 00:27:18.849
meet characters and then they get blown up. Like
00:27:18.849 --> 00:27:22.890
the film is not a fun watch. And I think it's
00:27:22.890 --> 00:27:25.049
it's interesting just the way that it goes through
00:27:25.049 --> 00:27:28.529
that. And I I feel like on some level there's
00:27:28.529 --> 00:27:32.000
this like this awareness, we have to give the
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:33.759
audience something. We have to give them an awesome
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:35.799
action sequence at the end. We have to really
00:27:35.799 --> 00:27:38.299
pay this off. But I think it's so different.
00:27:38.700 --> 00:27:41.420
I think that there were a lot of films that came
00:27:41.420 --> 00:27:44.539
out about the Iraq and Afghanistan wars that
00:27:44.539 --> 00:27:46.940
were not very successful. I think there was a
00:27:46.940 --> 00:27:53.339
film Green Zone. There was a film called Well,
00:27:53.339 --> 00:27:55.740
she did hurt locker before loss. She did hurt
00:27:55.740 --> 00:27:58.279
locker, which was a, was a, was a successful
00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:00.480
indie film, but then there was like American
00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:03.720
sniper and lone survivor, which were much more
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:07.119
successful bigger, but what were in many ways.
00:28:08.180 --> 00:28:11.839
Typical war action movies set during these conflicts.
00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:14.359
I mean, and based on real life for sure, but
00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:17.319
like they weren't trying to examine like all
00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:19.500
of the seriousness of these conflicts and whatever
00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:23.180
it was more. Oh jarhead, which was not which
00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:26.000
well jarhead was about the first world the first
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:29.720
gulf war I think oh Nothing happened. But anyway,
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:32.160
but like something from one. It's different.
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:35.500
It's different so many wars Yeah, but I think
00:28:35.500 --> 00:28:38.359
that like the most successful commercial films
00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:41.319
have been kind of simple in we are gonna have
00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:44.039
a clear hero and There's gonna be a lot of fighting
00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:46.859
and they're gonna be heroic and I think zero
00:28:46.859 --> 00:28:49.559
dark 30 is probably the most successful film
00:28:49.740 --> 00:28:52.160
that doesn't quite give us that even though it
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:54.920
does it does give us that one sequence that gives
00:28:54.920 --> 00:28:57.279
us all of that but the rest of the movie is a
00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:00.200
lot grimmer than that yeah you don't really get
00:29:00.200 --> 00:29:02.200
a sense of like oh there's a hero to this movie
00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:04.640
because even the maya character you're like oh
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:07.119
i mean that's awesome i mean and she's based
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:09.220
on kind of a conglomerate of different women
00:29:09.220 --> 00:29:11.980
that were involved in this from what i read there's
00:29:11.980 --> 00:29:15.039
a lot of people you know but like who is the
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:18.509
hero should we feel good at the end Are we supposed
00:29:18.509 --> 00:29:20.630
to have some type of like, Oh, this all worked
00:29:20.630 --> 00:29:23.130
out. Like, it's not like a happy ending, but
00:29:23.130 --> 00:29:26.369
it's not a sad ending. But it's, it's an interesting
00:29:26.369 --> 00:29:29.549
choice to choose like that character for this
00:29:29.549 --> 00:29:31.789
film because she's not a soldier. She's not on
00:29:31.789 --> 00:29:34.109
the ground. She's also not the president or like
00:29:34.109 --> 00:29:36.490
some high operative in the CIA. She's just kind
00:29:36.490 --> 00:29:40.170
of this middle ground where she has bosses, but
00:29:40.170 --> 00:29:42.930
she can also boss other people around. It's like
00:29:42.930 --> 00:29:46.759
she's to tell the story of. a person who's just
00:29:46.759 --> 00:29:49.200
basically every day on a computer, just looking
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:51.480
stuff and research and then find a way to make
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:53.920
that interesting. But it's a good way because
00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:56.319
you can have the scenes where she goes and talks
00:29:56.319 --> 00:29:57.859
to the people who then talk to the president.
00:29:58.019 --> 00:29:59.799
You can have the scenes where she goes to the
00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:02.839
guys on the ground that are like searching for
00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:04.599
him and be like, Hey, we got to get on this.
00:30:04.779 --> 00:30:07.000
And so she can kind of be this connection between
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:10.279
both sides of the film. where it feels like most
00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:12.059
films would have to choose one. You'd be like,
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:14.160
this is a film about soldiers or this is a film
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:16.400
about leadership, but it's really hard to get
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:19.039
both in the same one where you feel like they're
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:21.359
working towards the same thing. And I thought
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:24.380
that was an interesting choice for the, like,
00:30:24.579 --> 00:30:25.980
I don't know if she's called a hero, but for
00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:27.940
the protagonist of this film, like that's who
00:30:27.940 --> 00:30:30.599
we're following. And my understanding is that
00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.140
she's largely based on one person, but that you're
00:30:33.140 --> 00:30:35.279
always going to conflate like different things
00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:38.619
from different people in there. I, there's one
00:30:38.619 --> 00:30:42.019
line where she says, uh, you know, all these
00:30:42.019 --> 00:30:45.940
people died to get this far and I was spared
00:30:45.940 --> 00:30:49.220
to, to see it through. Right. Yeah. And that
00:30:49.220 --> 00:30:51.859
is an intro. And I have no idea if the real person
00:30:51.859 --> 00:30:54.460
said that or thought that or, or whatever, or
00:30:54.460 --> 00:30:56.559
if that's just, but you know, treating the character
00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:59.460
as a character that, I mean, that to me suggests
00:30:59.460 --> 00:31:03.940
like some sense of divine calling. Like not just
00:31:03.940 --> 00:31:07.779
like if I'm spared. that's spared by God or the
00:31:07.779 --> 00:31:11.259
cosmos or I'm spared by something to do this.
00:31:11.380 --> 00:31:13.619
And so this is not just something that I happen
00:31:13.619 --> 00:31:16.420
to be working on. This is my calling to do this.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:19.339
And I think that largely is what the movie is
00:31:19.339 --> 00:31:22.460
about. It's how she is gonna see this through.
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:26.839
And I think it actually is powerful that it doesn't
00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:29.759
then fake it and be like, well, and also she's
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:32.000
a Navy SEAL. and we're just gonna throw her in
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:33.700
there and she's also gonna be the one who pulls
00:31:33.700 --> 00:31:36.460
the trigger. Like, it's like, no, she has one
00:31:36.460 --> 00:31:39.380
mission and she's seeing that through even though,
00:31:39.460 --> 00:31:41.319
you know, that she's limited in what she can
00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:44.680
do. So I think that's a really, it's a really
00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:46.819
interesting character to follow and sort of an
00:31:46.819 --> 00:31:49.809
unusual character to follow like that. Right.
00:31:49.809 --> 00:31:52.349
Yeah. The unusual nature of it, of someone who
00:31:52.349 --> 00:31:54.730
just doesn't have the skills that are like fun
00:31:54.730 --> 00:31:57.269
skills to watch and like, isn't important enough
00:31:57.269 --> 00:31:59.829
for anybody to know the name of. Like we're not
00:31:59.829 --> 00:32:04.789
making a film of, you know, Obama or CIA leaders,
00:32:04.930 --> 00:32:07.150
like the people, like the names people know from
00:32:07.150 --> 00:32:09.309
newspapers and articles and stuff. This is somebody
00:32:09.309 --> 00:32:11.450
who you're saying, well, who's it based on? Like,
00:32:11.470 --> 00:32:15.049
oh, it's just some operative major, mainly based
00:32:15.049 --> 00:32:16.990
on this woman who did this. And it's like, nobody
00:32:16.990 --> 00:32:20.019
knows her name, you know, not like common, it's
00:32:20.019 --> 00:32:22.440
not common knowledge among people. And so like
00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:24.880
the choice of like somebody who's basically an
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:28.660
unknown, but had such an important role in this.
00:32:29.500 --> 00:32:33.319
And because they are so focused because everybody
00:32:33.319 --> 00:32:35.180
else around him is like, kind of goes in and
00:32:35.180 --> 00:32:37.359
out of like caring. because it's such a long
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:39.259
time period. Over 10 years, it's like, I can't
00:32:39.259 --> 00:32:41.660
do this. The guy who does the interrogation at
00:32:41.660 --> 00:32:42.859
the beginning is like, I got to get out. And
00:32:42.859 --> 00:32:45.359
you're like, well, yeah, that guy cannot do this.
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:48.200
Like that seems so like just what would do to
00:32:48.200 --> 00:32:50.680
your mentally. Like it just, there's all these
00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:52.779
issues and like everybody just at some point
00:32:52.779 --> 00:32:55.099
you're on a list. You got to get out. At some
00:32:55.099 --> 00:32:56.740
point you're in the office. At some point you've
00:32:56.740 --> 00:32:59.019
done this so long that you just don't believe
00:32:59.019 --> 00:33:02.089
in it anymore. And so I think For an audience,
00:33:02.289 --> 00:33:04.230
you need somebody who just always believes. You
00:33:04.230 --> 00:33:05.630
know, she's got that scene is like, it's a hundred
00:33:05.630 --> 00:33:07.710
percent. Okay. It's 95. Cause you guys don't
00:33:07.710 --> 00:33:09.529
like certainty, but it's a hundred percent, you
00:33:09.529 --> 00:33:11.789
know, like somebody has to say that because nobody
00:33:11.789 --> 00:33:14.170
else in the film does. Nobody is sure of anything.
00:33:14.470 --> 00:33:16.630
And if you don't have that, I do feel like the
00:33:16.630 --> 00:33:18.869
film would suffer a lot of just like, where's
00:33:18.869 --> 00:33:21.569
our focus? What, why should we care? But we care
00:33:21.569 --> 00:33:24.329
because she does. She's so into this. Yeah. I
00:33:24.329 --> 00:33:26.490
think that's so true. And I think that is a real
00:33:26.490 --> 00:33:29.809
interesting part of this. Uh, and it's interesting.
00:33:30.190 --> 00:33:32.210
Like the different people, like at one point
00:33:32.210 --> 00:33:35.130
the Kyle Chandler character, who's her boss,
00:33:35.250 --> 00:33:37.829
says, I don't even care about finding Bin Laden
00:33:37.829 --> 00:33:40.049
anymore. I care about stopping the next attack.
00:33:40.130 --> 00:33:42.730
And I think that's an interesting kind of structural
00:33:42.730 --> 00:33:45.630
moment in the story because you would think,
00:33:45.990 --> 00:33:48.970
I mean, and so if you think of like the way a
00:33:48.970 --> 00:33:50.910
story is structured, she's trying to achieve
00:33:50.910 --> 00:33:54.430
a goal. It's not going to be easy. And then probably
00:33:54.430 --> 00:33:56.230
at some point she's going to need to realize
00:33:56.230 --> 00:33:58.130
she's been approaching it in the wrong way and
00:33:58.130 --> 00:33:59.710
she needs to approach it in a different way.
00:33:59.819 --> 00:34:02.819
That's usually how a story is structured. But
00:34:02.819 --> 00:34:05.220
I think what's interesting is, and partly that's
00:34:05.220 --> 00:34:08.079
true, she has this sort of epiphany spurred on
00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:11.360
by some new information from another analyst
00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:13.699
about, oh, there was all this information from
00:34:13.699 --> 00:34:15.260
back in the day and we haven't really looked
00:34:15.260 --> 00:34:17.679
through it. So go back through that old information.
00:34:18.940 --> 00:34:21.900
But I think also there's this idea of she never
00:34:21.900 --> 00:34:24.579
waivers in her pursuit. And you would think usually
00:34:24.579 --> 00:34:28.920
your protagonist would... have to change more.
00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:31.599
And I think she doesn't really change. But I
00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:34.360
think what we see is the world is changing around
00:34:34.360 --> 00:34:37.059
her. There's a moment where Obama becomes president
00:34:37.059 --> 00:34:39.079
and they have to change their policies and they
00:34:39.079 --> 00:34:40.880
have to change how they interrogate and things
00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:44.099
like that. There's this moment with, you know,
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:45.780
what Kyle Chandler telling her, like, that's
00:34:45.780 --> 00:34:48.360
not our priority anymore, things like this. And
00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:50.559
I think it's an interesting structural thing
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:54.090
that she doesn't really ever change. her dogged
00:34:54.090 --> 00:34:56.449
pursuit of this. Yeah. It's just the world that
00:34:56.449 --> 00:34:59.110
changes around her. Yeah. That's that. And that
00:34:59.110 --> 00:35:01.510
that's so you just, I don't think you could get
00:35:01.510 --> 00:35:04.909
into that film without that helping you guide
00:35:04.909 --> 00:35:07.650
you along. There are, there's just too many people
00:35:07.650 --> 00:35:11.389
that just don't care about it. And like you do
00:35:11.389 --> 00:35:13.789
in a sense as an audience, you're like, I know,
00:35:14.510 --> 00:35:17.070
but do you, I don't know. Like as it's, it was
00:35:17.070 --> 00:35:19.849
so recent to the event of it happening that I
00:35:19.849 --> 00:35:23.369
can't remember. Like it was big news, but the,
00:35:23.369 --> 00:35:26.269
the event of like killing him and then the stuff
00:35:26.269 --> 00:35:28.289
that it took to get there is just so different.
00:35:28.429 --> 00:35:30.690
And so you kind of get like those both perspectives.
00:35:30.730 --> 00:35:33.409
That's really fun. Now, so one aspect of this
00:35:33.409 --> 00:35:35.550
film, so the film got a lot of criticism for
00:35:35.550 --> 00:35:39.670
being too pro torture and it, you know, that's
00:35:39.670 --> 00:35:42.289
an interesting criticism of the film. And so
00:35:42.289 --> 00:35:44.550
I want to discuss this a little bit because I
00:35:44.550 --> 00:35:48.070
mean, I think part, I mean, the, the, the criticism
00:35:48.070 --> 00:35:50.750
that people who are being smart about it make
00:35:50.750 --> 00:35:54.349
is that In the information that they get that
00:35:54.349 --> 00:35:56.650
is ultimately helpful in finding bin Laden the
00:35:56.650 --> 00:35:59.369
movie suggests that part of how they got that
00:35:59.369 --> 00:36:04.829
information was True was it was affected by torture
00:36:04.829 --> 00:36:08.130
or this enhanced interrogation? Even if it wasn't
00:36:08.130 --> 00:36:10.329
necessarily what the guy said when he was being
00:36:10.329 --> 00:36:12.909
tortured But because he'd been tortured then
00:36:12.909 --> 00:36:14.869
when they sort of played good cop He did give
00:36:14.869 --> 00:36:16.929
up the information, but that wouldn't have worked
00:36:16.929 --> 00:36:19.869
without the torture so that so the argument that
00:36:19.869 --> 00:36:22.610
people make is that it's showing that that worked
00:36:22.610 --> 00:36:25.449
and that that then encourages people to do this.
00:36:25.469 --> 00:36:28.030
And so that's a big problem. And that's, you
00:36:28.030 --> 00:36:30.250
know, I don't want to get political and I'm not
00:36:30.250 --> 00:36:33.650
an expert in this. People disagree. There was
00:36:33.650 --> 00:36:37.010
a there was a finding that the the I think the
00:36:37.010 --> 00:36:39.670
Senate Judiciary Committee said like this was
00:36:39.670 --> 00:36:41.550
not officially they didn't. Yeah, officially,
00:36:41.570 --> 00:36:44.530
they did not use information gathered from enhanced
00:36:44.530 --> 00:36:48.230
interrogation. But, but a lot of people disagree.
00:36:48.619 --> 00:36:51.380
A lot of people who know disagree. So it's hard
00:36:51.380 --> 00:36:55.650
to know exactly. But that aside, or maybe not
00:36:55.650 --> 00:36:57.570
that aside completely, but also in addition to
00:36:57.570 --> 00:37:02.070
that, I don't like the movie is not. It paints
00:37:02.070 --> 00:37:05.369
a very grim picture of torture and interrogation,
00:37:05.369 --> 00:37:08.829
and it starts off with that. And I think a film
00:37:08.829 --> 00:37:11.510
that wanted to show how good this is would say,
00:37:12.230 --> 00:37:14.690
OK, we need urgency. It's very clear the piece
00:37:14.690 --> 00:37:17.110
of information that we need. And this guy is
00:37:17.110 --> 00:37:19.869
this guy who we hate. And the movie's telling
00:37:19.869 --> 00:37:22.889
us to hate him. We need to get this information
00:37:22.889 --> 00:37:26.590
from a, from him in any means necessary so that
00:37:26.590 --> 00:37:29.409
we can solve this problem or that problem. Like
00:37:29.409 --> 00:37:32.469
lots of movies do that. And this doesn't do that.
00:37:32.690 --> 00:37:35.570
We don't, we don't w we don't have a sense of
00:37:35.570 --> 00:37:38.389
urgency. We don't really understand what specific
00:37:38.389 --> 00:37:40.469
questions they're asking or why they're important.
00:37:40.949 --> 00:37:43.829
Like, like the movie is not doing what it would
00:37:43.829 --> 00:37:47.289
do if it wanted to tell us this is a good thing
00:37:47.289 --> 00:37:50.590
that they're torturing this guy. Yeah, I definitely
00:37:50.590 --> 00:37:52.230
didn't get the sense that that's they're promoting
00:37:52.230 --> 00:37:55.389
torture in any way it just comes across as so
00:37:55.389 --> 00:37:58.530
harsh and so bleak and just kind of goes nowhere
00:37:58.530 --> 00:38:00.929
for the most part like they you think in that
00:38:00.929 --> 00:38:02.769
that opening sequence like okay They're gonna
00:38:02.769 --> 00:38:04.869
get something from this and they just get nothing
00:38:04.869 --> 00:38:07.769
from this guy and they just keep going and going
00:38:07.769 --> 00:38:10.989
it's like it's like a one -up in of almost like
00:38:10.989 --> 00:38:13.110
Okay, there was September 11th now. We're torturing
00:38:13.110 --> 00:38:14.969
you because of it and then this guy is like no
00:38:14.969 --> 00:38:16.210
I'm not giving you anything and you feel bad
00:38:16.210 --> 00:38:18.869
for him and then it's like oh Another terrorist
00:38:18.869 --> 00:38:20.730
attack happened. He could have told us information
00:38:20.730 --> 00:38:23.590
to stop it. We're back at it. And it's kind of
00:38:23.590 --> 00:38:26.949
like this. You're bad. We're bad. You're doing
00:38:26.949 --> 00:38:28.769
mean things. Now we're going to do mean things.
00:38:28.869 --> 00:38:30.630
And it's kind of just like this back and forth
00:38:30.630 --> 00:38:35.090
of who is good and bad in this situation. Everybody's
00:38:35.090 --> 00:38:37.610
kind of in this really gray area because the
00:38:37.610 --> 00:38:39.849
guy being tortured. You're like, well, if he
00:38:39.849 --> 00:38:41.389
doesn't want to give up his friends and his family,
00:38:41.630 --> 00:38:44.050
that makes sense. Even though. You know, he was
00:38:44.050 --> 00:38:46.289
involved in this terrorist attack. The people
00:38:46.289 --> 00:38:48.530
that are torturing him. You're like, well, they
00:38:48.530 --> 00:38:50.769
are trying to do this for the good of saving
00:38:50.769 --> 00:38:53.369
lives. But what they're doing to this guy is
00:38:53.369 --> 00:38:56.489
definitely not a morally, you know, strong stance
00:38:56.489 --> 00:38:59.170
of how you're torturing somebody. So I didn't
00:38:59.170 --> 00:39:01.269
get the sense that it's like taking aside as
00:39:01.269 --> 00:39:03.849
much of it as just showing more of the reality
00:39:03.849 --> 00:39:06.449
of like, this is what happens. This is kind of
00:39:06.449 --> 00:39:10.030
retaliation. This is how it works. And maybe
00:39:10.030 --> 00:39:12.070
it leads to something as a result of that. Maybe
00:39:12.070 --> 00:39:14.320
it doesn't. It doesn't seem like that's the point
00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:16.760
of showing that scene. It seems like the point
00:39:16.760 --> 00:39:20.519
is to show just kind of where we went to and
00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:23.719
like how serious this event was taken, how important
00:39:23.719 --> 00:39:26.980
it was to set the stakes for what comes later
00:39:26.980 --> 00:39:30.300
in the film. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I'm
00:39:30.300 --> 00:39:34.780
not. I think in general, torturing people is
00:39:34.780 --> 00:39:37.679
a bad thing, so I'm not gonna get more into the
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:40.420
specifics of what these people should or should
00:39:40.420 --> 00:39:43.659
not have done. In general, and I live my life
00:39:43.659 --> 00:39:45.760
trying not to torture people, I would say that,
00:39:46.059 --> 00:39:48.820
but I think the movie, I don't think it does
00:39:48.820 --> 00:39:52.039
what you would do if you wanted to show, wow,
00:39:52.380 --> 00:39:54.260
thank goodness these good guys are doing this
00:39:54.260 --> 00:39:57.000
great thing by torturing this guy, but I also
00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:00.239
don't think it's saying, look how terrible they
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:03.469
are. And look how it's a weird, it is in this
00:40:03.469 --> 00:40:07.750
gray area and it's, and I think that's, I think
00:40:07.750 --> 00:40:10.090
it's just exploring. Like these are things that
00:40:10.090 --> 00:40:14.530
happened. And I mean, it is tilted though, because
00:40:14.530 --> 00:40:16.969
we are, we are going to be on the American side.
00:40:18.369 --> 00:40:21.929
Like it gives you enough reason to see why they're
00:40:21.929 --> 00:40:23.730
doing it. Like it's giving you a reason that
00:40:23.730 --> 00:40:26.170
they do say like as a torture and like this many
00:40:26.170 --> 00:40:28.829
people died and this is what's happening. And
00:40:28.829 --> 00:40:30.369
this thing happened, this terrible thing happened
00:40:30.369 --> 00:40:32.369
because of you guys. So it's given you reason
00:40:32.369 --> 00:40:35.849
to understand why they're doing it, but it's
00:40:35.849 --> 00:40:38.090
not like saying overtly they're doing the right
00:40:38.090 --> 00:40:41.230
thing or this is doing the wrong thing, but like
00:40:41.230 --> 00:40:43.510
it's giving you enough information to where you
00:40:43.510 --> 00:40:45.869
can see kind of both sides. But obviously you're
00:40:45.869 --> 00:40:47.190
on the American side. If you're watching this
00:40:47.190 --> 00:40:49.869
film. I don't know. Is this a popular film in
00:40:49.869 --> 00:40:54.769
Afghanistan? I doubt it. Probably not, I would
00:40:54.769 --> 00:40:59.690
imagine, but I don't know. Maybe a lot of people
00:40:59.690 --> 00:41:01.869
who are big fans of Guardians of the Galaxy have
00:41:01.869 --> 00:41:04.070
watched this one thinking, I want to see Chris
00:41:04.070 --> 00:41:09.889
Pratt and be very disappointed. One question
00:41:09.889 --> 00:41:13.190
I have, as a movie, do you feel like, separate
00:41:13.190 --> 00:41:16.010
from whatever statements it is or isn't making
00:41:16.010 --> 00:41:20.500
about torture, The is it too grim like this like
00:41:20.500 --> 00:41:22.800
like is it like does the movie is it just too
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:26.199
hard to watch? So much of it is so bleak does
00:41:26.199 --> 00:41:29.860
that Does that just like what does that do to
00:41:29.860 --> 00:41:33.079
you as a viewer of the film? See, this is where
00:41:33.079 --> 00:41:35.860
I kind of question You know, I don't know but
00:41:35.860 --> 00:41:39.039
the future of like the how can this film in the
00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:40.460
future when you're not connected to it so I feel
00:41:40.460 --> 00:41:43.559
like a big part of why I watch it why other people
00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:45.900
watch is because We, this is like a personal
00:41:45.900 --> 00:41:47.860
thing to us. We went through this, we live through
00:41:47.860 --> 00:41:50.239
it. If it wasn't based on real events, if this
00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:53.579
was like just a made up thing that happened in,
00:41:53.579 --> 00:41:56.340
you know, somewhere else and it's just all fictional.
00:41:57.199 --> 00:41:59.119
I think it would be too grim. Like there's just
00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:02.019
not enough here to, to just sit with that, you
00:42:02.019 --> 00:42:04.340
know? But I think knowing it's based on real
00:42:04.340 --> 00:42:06.980
events and knowing those events are knowing people
00:42:06.980 --> 00:42:08.780
who were in it, who were around it, who were
00:42:08.780 --> 00:42:12.179
part of it. Gives it a lot of leeway to just
00:42:12.179 --> 00:42:15.030
give you this bleak look. you know, all the way
00:42:15.030 --> 00:42:18.409
through like just how intense and dark it is
00:42:18.409 --> 00:42:21.650
until you get to that end scene, which is a little
00:42:21.650 --> 00:42:24.230
bit of a payoff and there's a little more fun
00:42:24.230 --> 00:42:26.909
to it. But even that, that's not like the most
00:42:26.909 --> 00:42:29.469
enjoyable payoff of everything. They just don't
00:42:29.469 --> 00:42:31.869
ever get that way to make things really fun.
00:42:31.989 --> 00:42:34.869
But I think a lot of it is due to just, it's
00:42:34.869 --> 00:42:37.010
a, it's a recent event that we understand and
00:42:37.010 --> 00:42:38.789
live through. I don't know if it would work otherwise.
00:42:39.590 --> 00:42:42.909
Yeah. It's a, I mean, I, I think it's, I think
00:42:42.909 --> 00:42:47.659
that It was a huge success commercially and with
00:42:47.659 --> 00:42:50.099
the Oscars. I think it was as big a success as
00:42:50.099 --> 00:42:54.940
it was because of the importance of the September.
00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:57.699
It's going off September 11th, it's the hunt
00:42:57.699 --> 00:43:00.320
for Bin Laden. I think that specific storyline.
00:43:02.619 --> 00:43:05.559
I think the ending sequence is a lot of what
00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:08.079
people remember from the film and that's why
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:11.880
they might revisit the film. I think that the
00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:15.440
film is a good film regardless, but I don't know
00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:17.019
that it would have, I think it would just be
00:43:17.019 --> 00:43:20.099
too hard to watch if it hadn't come out when
00:43:20.099 --> 00:43:24.000
it did with the attention it had. It's an interesting
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:27.559
one to be like a big commercial hit. It seems
00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:33.159
weird to call it a hit, but so I know a lot of
00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:35.159
people who work for the government in various
00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:38.699
capacities and it's... It's interesting the level
00:43:38.699 --> 00:43:41.699
of like compartmentalization that people do and
00:43:41.699 --> 00:43:44.579
the idea of like, you know, when I go to work,
00:43:44.579 --> 00:43:47.340
I do this and I can't talk about that when I'm
00:43:47.340 --> 00:43:49.559
not at work. And, you know, and then I go to
00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:51.860
the picnic or I go to church or I do whatever.
00:43:52.340 --> 00:43:53.900
And it's like, if I'm interacting with that person
00:43:53.900 --> 00:43:57.059
at a picnic, it's just a very pleasant little
00:43:57.059 --> 00:43:59.539
conversation. And then like, who knows what they're
00:43:59.539 --> 00:44:02.880
doing Monday to Friday. It's a very, it's a very
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:04.800
interesting kind of world. I had a conversation
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:08.190
with the guy who had been in military intelligence
00:44:08.190 --> 00:44:11.769
in Afghanistan. And he was just a fascinating
00:44:11.769 --> 00:44:13.329
conversation. It was at a children's birthday
00:44:13.329 --> 00:44:16.070
party. And he was just sitting there and we were
00:44:16.070 --> 00:44:18.230
just talking and he talked about, yeah, we would
00:44:18.230 --> 00:44:22.349
interrogate these guys. And largely, like the
00:44:22.349 --> 00:44:24.869
scene where they say early on in the film, we're
00:44:24.869 --> 00:44:27.010
gonna bluff the guy, we're gonna bluff him and
00:44:27.010 --> 00:44:29.489
tell him that he can't remember it, but he actually
00:44:29.489 --> 00:44:31.170
already told us the information that we were
00:44:31.170 --> 00:44:35.030
looking for. That basically is... the kind of
00:44:35.030 --> 00:44:36.909
principle that is used a lot in interrogation.
00:44:37.170 --> 00:44:39.769
We already know this stuff, and we're going to
00:44:39.769 --> 00:44:43.489
say things so that, like, I'm going to tell you
00:44:43.489 --> 00:44:45.789
what happened. And when I see that you start
00:44:45.789 --> 00:44:48.070
to correct me on something, now I know that that's
00:44:48.070 --> 00:44:50.110
true. Now I know that there's a detail there
00:44:50.110 --> 00:44:53.429
and that that is a lot more of what useful interrogation
00:44:53.429 --> 00:44:55.349
is as opposed to beating people or whatever.
00:44:55.909 --> 00:44:58.250
But this guy, it's a fascinating conversation.
00:44:58.389 --> 00:45:01.309
He was like one... There's one guy we were interrogating,
00:45:01.929 --> 00:45:04.570
and we were in Afghanistan, and we told him we
00:45:04.570 --> 00:45:06.250
were going to take him to Guantanamo Bay, and
00:45:06.250 --> 00:45:08.469
he was terrified of that. He did not want to
00:45:08.469 --> 00:45:11.429
go, but he wouldn't talk. So we put him in a
00:45:11.429 --> 00:45:15.170
helicopter. We flew him around for a couple hours.
00:45:15.650 --> 00:45:18.449
We brought him back down in a different building.
00:45:18.690 --> 00:45:21.670
He was blindfolded the whole time. And then we
00:45:21.670 --> 00:45:25.019
had humidifiers running in this building. and
00:45:25.019 --> 00:45:28.380
and a different like sense in the air. So we
00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:31.619
told him he was in Cuba when he landed and he
00:45:31.619 --> 00:45:33.960
and then he just opened up because he he didn't
00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:36.579
want to be in Guantanamo Bay. And with with the
00:45:36.579 --> 00:45:38.880
helicopter and the blindfold and the humidifiers,
00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:41.440
we'd convinced him. And it's like, oh, that's
00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:42.860
a that's a whole lot. That's right. From this
00:45:42.860 --> 00:45:45.139
movie, it feels like it would fit right in. Absolutely.
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:49.079
Yeah. And I was talking to this guy and I was
00:45:49.079 --> 00:45:51.739
like, oh, do you know? in your you know as an
00:45:51.739 --> 00:45:53.820
intelligence officer do you ever worry about
00:45:53.820 --> 00:45:57.309
people you know identifying you or uh you know
00:45:57.309 --> 00:45:59.030
like when you're out in public and he's like
00:45:59.030 --> 00:46:02.130
what do i look like and you know it's a funny
00:46:02.130 --> 00:46:04.989
conversation like funny moment but i i realized
00:46:04.989 --> 00:46:08.050
looking at him he's a guy in a white t -shirt
00:46:08.050 --> 00:46:10.949
wearing a baseball hat and sunglasses like i'd
00:46:10.949 --> 00:46:13.530
been talking to him for an hour and had no idea
00:46:13.530 --> 00:46:16.880
what he looked like I mean, it's just like, that's
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:19.639
how he goes about his life, just sort of in a
00:46:19.639 --> 00:46:22.239
disguise that doesn't look like a disguise. Anyway,
00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:27.519
it's interesting getting some sense for the reality
00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:31.760
of these kind of things. But with the film itself,
00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:36.500
one question I had was, do you think that the
00:46:36.500 --> 00:46:40.530
ending, I mean, does the ending feel like it's
00:46:40.530 --> 00:46:43.250
from a different movie? Does it feel like we've
00:46:43.250 --> 00:46:45.460
earned the ending? Or does it feel like this
00:46:45.460 --> 00:46:47.460
is a gesture to the audience? We need to give
00:46:47.460 --> 00:46:51.320
some payoff to you. The, the Seals team six.
00:46:51.460 --> 00:46:53.820
Not the, not the last, not her last line, but
00:46:53.820 --> 00:46:56.320
like the, like the whole about about sequence.
00:46:57.159 --> 00:46:59.039
Yes. It does feel like a completely different
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:00.659
movie. It feels like that could be the beginning
00:47:00.659 --> 00:47:03.099
of a different movie or the ending of a different
00:47:03.099 --> 00:47:05.639
movie. It feels like it's thrown in there and
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:09.800
yet. So good, like so incredible. And it feels
00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:12.949
like this film without that scene. Like, what
00:47:12.949 --> 00:47:14.769
if, if you were to imagine it without it where
00:47:14.769 --> 00:47:16.789
she's like, okay, they're going out today and
00:47:16.789 --> 00:47:19.969
she's just, we do like we did in, um, Goodfellas
00:47:19.969 --> 00:47:21.349
where we stay with the main character and we
00:47:21.349 --> 00:47:24.170
don't see the, when they robbed the airport or
00:47:24.170 --> 00:47:26.030
whatever, right? The Lufthansa heist. Yeah, the
00:47:26.030 --> 00:47:27.610
Lufthansa heist. We don't see that. So they do
00:47:27.610 --> 00:47:29.010
that for this. Like we don't see the killing
00:47:29.010 --> 00:47:31.369
of Osama Bin Laden. We just see her on the ground,
00:47:31.929 --> 00:47:33.710
checking her messages like she was for the other
00:47:33.710 --> 00:47:35.670
events, messaging people, looking at a computer,
00:47:35.710 --> 00:47:38.110
just staring off in the distance. And then it's
00:47:38.110 --> 00:47:40.710
like, oh, they got him. Oh, here's like, you
00:47:40.710 --> 00:47:42.400
know, like. this went bad, this went bad, but
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:43.860
then they actually got him and then he's coming
00:47:43.860 --> 00:47:45.579
in and then she identifies him. And you're like,
00:47:45.579 --> 00:47:48.539
Oh, that's great. It feels like that would be
00:47:48.539 --> 00:47:51.719
like, can you imagine that movie without that
00:47:51.719 --> 00:47:54.619
scene? Yeah. Like it does. Like it feels like
00:47:54.619 --> 00:47:56.679
that's got him. That's, that's what the movie
00:47:56.679 --> 00:47:59.360
sets up in the beginning. Like all the other
00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:01.019
sequences are kind of like that where you don't
00:48:01.019 --> 00:48:03.960
get a ton. And then like, what if you just, yeah,
00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:06.630
you saw that I think I think that scene at the
00:48:06.630 --> 00:48:09.710
end really justifies a lot of what you've been
00:48:09.710 --> 00:48:12.510
through. Like it makes it worth it because it
00:48:12.510 --> 00:48:15.050
does, like this film does not rush through scenes.
00:48:15.550 --> 00:48:18.610
It is very long. The interrogation scenes are
00:48:18.610 --> 00:48:21.389
not cut short. Like her at a computer, we've
00:48:21.389 --> 00:48:23.329
seen this so many times, but it does give you
00:48:23.329 --> 00:48:26.769
the sense of like time going by. You feel the
00:48:26.769 --> 00:48:29.429
weight, the weight of like the length of these
00:48:29.429 --> 00:48:32.579
events, like how long it has been. And in the
00:48:32.579 --> 00:48:34.800
film by the time you get to that point you feel
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:36.780
like you've just been waiting and waiting and
00:48:36.780 --> 00:48:40.820
waiting for so long that I think it has to do
00:48:40.820 --> 00:48:42.440
that. Otherwise, I just don't think this film
00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:44.440
would work at the same level without that. It
00:48:44.440 --> 00:48:46.260
just feels like, you're like, oh, that's kind
00:48:46.260 --> 00:48:48.539
of a dud. Like it just didn't really land, you
00:48:48.539 --> 00:48:50.059
know? I think you need it. What do you think?
00:48:50.500 --> 00:48:52.880
I think you definitely need it. I think you definitely
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:55.760
need it. But I do think structurally, it's almost
00:48:55.760 --> 00:48:59.500
like a new act at the end of your, it's like
00:48:59.500 --> 00:49:02.159
an extra act because our main character who's
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:03.900
been our main character for the whole film is
00:49:03.900 --> 00:49:06.900
passive. She's not even involved in it. She's
00:49:06.900 --> 00:49:10.139
like barely even present. and she's not present
00:49:10.139 --> 00:49:12.739
on site, but she's barely even in the sequence.
00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:17.239
And I think that that's structurally such a weird
00:49:17.239 --> 00:49:19.679
thing to do at the end of a film. And I think
00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:22.300
it would usually be a terrible idea to do that,
00:49:22.340 --> 00:49:25.800
but I do think it works here. But the one thing
00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:30.860
that this like reminded me of was Sicario, which
00:49:30.860 --> 00:49:34.960
I think is also an excellent film. Different,
00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:37.420
dealing with like real topics, but very fictional.
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:41.480
but it has this also female protagonist who then
00:49:41.480 --> 00:49:44.159
is kind of involved, but then gets left behind
00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:49.099
from the final sequence. And I thought it was
00:49:49.099 --> 00:49:52.260
interesting comparing the two because I actually
00:49:52.260 --> 00:49:56.480
think it works better in Zero Dark Thirty because
00:49:56.480 --> 00:50:00.400
we knew all along that this, like Maya was never
00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:03.400
gonna be in Seal Team Six. That was not the story
00:50:03.400 --> 00:50:06.639
this was, but we do wanna see it. And I think
00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:08.739
it's Sicario, it kind of comes out of nowhere.
00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:10.659
What do you mean she's not there for all of this
00:50:10.659 --> 00:50:12.519
stuff? Like that's - Yeah, why not? It feels
00:50:12.519 --> 00:50:14.519
like we're being cheated by her not being present.
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:16.960
And I think it fits with the story. I don't think
00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:19.260
it undermines the story, but I do think that's
00:50:19.260 --> 00:50:21.679
a weird ending for Sicario. Whereas in Zero Dark
00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:24.659
Thirty, I think it fits more with the overall
00:50:24.659 --> 00:50:28.179
story. Like the way that the story reflects on
00:50:28.179 --> 00:50:30.380
reality and how this would actually fit with
00:50:30.380 --> 00:50:32.719
the world as we know it to be. I think it works
00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:35.050
in Zero Dark Thirty. Yeah. I think if you're
00:50:35.050 --> 00:50:36.809
not, if you're just watching it, I don't even
00:50:36.809 --> 00:50:38.429
think you'll notice like at the end, you'd be
00:50:38.429 --> 00:50:40.130
like, oh yeah, she wasn't there for any of that.
00:50:40.269 --> 00:50:41.889
You know, like it's kind of like, it just feels
00:50:41.889 --> 00:50:43.969
so natural to get into that. Yeah. That's what,
00:50:44.110 --> 00:50:45.389
and that's what you want that you don't miss
00:50:45.389 --> 00:50:47.650
her at all. You know, you're like, I don't, I
00:50:47.650 --> 00:50:50.010
don't wish she was here. I'm not wanting to see
00:50:50.010 --> 00:50:53.969
what she's doing now. This is so engaging that
00:50:53.969 --> 00:50:56.170
I don't want to go anywhere else. And I think
00:50:56.170 --> 00:50:58.570
that's why it works that you get away with it.
00:50:58.739 --> 00:51:01.179
Yeah, and I think that's a real testament to
00:51:01.179 --> 00:51:03.800
Catherine Bigelow and her directing of that sequence
00:51:03.800 --> 00:51:07.260
because to have this, I mean, it's one of the
00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:10.820
most powerful, you know, just sheer war action
00:51:10.820 --> 00:51:16.440
sequences in any film, I think. And we just met
00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:19.440
these characters. We didn't spend any time getting
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:22.000
invested in these characters. It's all about
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:25.050
just the functional actions they're doing. but
00:51:25.050 --> 00:51:27.210
it's told with the camera, with the dialogue,
00:51:27.570 --> 00:51:31.230
it's told in such an expert way that it totally,
00:51:31.329 --> 00:51:34.230
like, not only are we totally on board for this
00:51:34.230 --> 00:51:36.929
sequence, we're so on board, we don't even notice
00:51:36.929 --> 00:51:39.969
that our main character isn't there. Yes. Yeah,
00:51:39.969 --> 00:51:42.250
that's the thing is like, you're so on board
00:51:42.250 --> 00:51:45.070
with it that you don't notice she's not there.
00:51:45.730 --> 00:51:48.329
And like, look, I've watched this a few times,
00:51:48.369 --> 00:51:50.150
but like watching it this time, you kind of just
00:51:50.150 --> 00:51:52.889
realize it's such a long time without her, but
00:51:52.889 --> 00:51:55.929
don't miss her. And like, it's just so expertly,
00:51:56.050 --> 00:51:58.630
you could just show that sequence to anybody.
00:51:59.150 --> 00:52:01.110
And I just find a hard, I find it hard to think
00:52:01.110 --> 00:52:03.130
like, oh, I, I'm not going to get on on this.
00:52:03.150 --> 00:52:06.489
Like, it's just so, it's so engaging that part
00:52:06.489 --> 00:52:08.269
of it that anybody, even if you didn't watch
00:52:08.269 --> 00:52:09.769
the beginning of the movie, I feel like this
00:52:09.769 --> 00:52:11.489
is a really fun scene to watch. I got to see
00:52:11.489 --> 00:52:13.630
what's going on here. It's so well done. Well,
00:52:13.789 --> 00:52:17.130
so how do you think this, this stacks up as a
00:52:17.130 --> 00:52:22.179
great work of cinema? Uh, I mean, it's so particular
00:52:22.179 --> 00:52:26.989
to this moment in time, to this issue. But is
00:52:26.989 --> 00:52:29.050
it a great work of cinema? Is it a really good
00:52:29.050 --> 00:52:31.429
film? Who would you recommend it to? What's your
00:52:31.429 --> 00:52:35.900
verdict on it? I really like it. I think the
00:52:35.900 --> 00:52:39.079
fact, like we've said, it does feel of its time.
00:52:39.719 --> 00:52:42.119
It's about what, like it came out while this
00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:44.340
thing was happening. I think that's important.
00:52:44.340 --> 00:52:45.880
And I think that's part of the reason I would
00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:49.099
say it is a great work of cinema is that it's
00:52:49.099 --> 00:52:52.739
about the time that it is taking place in. So
00:52:52.739 --> 00:52:55.219
the people that are making this movie are aware
00:52:55.219 --> 00:52:57.239
of it, it's current, it's fresh in their minds,
00:52:57.239 --> 00:52:59.480
it's not a look back. And so I think a lot of
00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:01.400
that helps with this movie of we're getting the
00:53:01.400 --> 00:53:03.159
perspective that people had at the time. We're
00:53:03.159 --> 00:53:05.460
getting like, it's like in Casablanca, it was
00:53:05.460 --> 00:53:07.340
made during World War II. I think that goes a
00:53:07.340 --> 00:53:09.940
long way for that film as opposed to making that
00:53:09.940 --> 00:53:13.139
story after the war. So I think that's part of
00:53:13.139 --> 00:53:15.420
the reason I think this is, I would consider
00:53:15.420 --> 00:53:17.840
it a great film. I think it's a film I would
00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:20.179
recommend. I think you should watch it because
00:53:20.619 --> 00:53:23.380
Even beyond like there's a lot of great scenes.
00:53:23.380 --> 00:53:25.559
It's really well done well directed Everything's
00:53:25.559 --> 00:53:28.019
so well done the historical part of this and
00:53:28.019 --> 00:53:30.820
just what it means to the time. I think is important
00:53:30.820 --> 00:53:34.360
as well Yeah, I think I think it's a great film.
00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:40.460
I think it's a I almost think though it's More
00:53:40.460 --> 00:53:44.099
of an edgy. I think it's an edgier film more
00:53:44.099 --> 00:53:48.920
provocative film than it like it doesn't Like
00:53:48.920 --> 00:53:52.500
it doesn't seem like a, we can all accept that
00:53:52.500 --> 00:53:56.539
this is a grand film that is, you know, the moment
00:53:56.539 --> 00:53:59.519
of, you know, and it was a weird moment in history
00:53:59.519 --> 00:54:02.699
when Bin Laden got killed because I've never
00:54:02.699 --> 00:54:07.119
seen any other time in life when I saw people
00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:10.219
celebrating someone being killed. And, and it's
00:54:10.219 --> 00:54:14.079
like, and, you know, I'm not against it for the
00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:16.119
particulars of who Bin Laden was and what he,
00:54:16.159 --> 00:54:18.739
what he did and represented, but it's a weird
00:54:18.909 --> 00:54:22.510
That's a weird moment to be celebrating that
00:54:22.510 --> 00:54:25.610
just in general. Anyway, that's just to say,
00:54:26.190 --> 00:54:30.690
it's a very particular moment in time that's
00:54:30.690 --> 00:54:37.090
being captured in this film. I don't think you
00:54:37.090 --> 00:54:41.210
would want to do this style of film for any other
00:54:41.210 --> 00:54:43.550
moment in history necessarily. I think it really
00:54:43.550 --> 00:54:46.250
speaks to that particular moment. I think the
00:54:46.250 --> 00:54:50.219
idea of we are You know the gray zones the moral
00:54:50.219 --> 00:54:53.139
gray zones that people are operating in and the
00:54:53.139 --> 00:54:56.780
we're not There's no question about who the bad
00:54:56.780 --> 00:54:59.840
guys are Except that are we sure that the good
00:54:59.840 --> 00:55:02.739
guys aren't also a little bad, right? It's like
00:55:02.739 --> 00:55:04.679
no one's questioning that the bad guys are bad,
00:55:04.699 --> 00:55:06.960
but are they the only ones that are bad? That's
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:09.920
kind of the moral question here And so I think
00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:12.079
it's a great film. I think it should be watched,
00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:15.900
but I also don't know I honestly don't know how
00:55:15.900 --> 00:55:18.059
people would watch it now if you were born and
00:55:18.980 --> 00:55:21.420
2005 and you watch this now. I mean, if you were
00:55:21.420 --> 00:55:25.440
born in 2005, you're an adult and you have no,
00:55:25.739 --> 00:55:29.360
you were not even alive anytime recent to September
00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:31.960
11th. So I have no idea what your reaction would
00:55:31.960 --> 00:55:34.980
be to this film. So I think that'll be a question
00:55:34.980 --> 00:55:38.719
to see how it ages as time goes on. But for now,
00:55:38.980 --> 00:55:40.920
from my experience, I would say great film that
00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:43.630
I think I would not take, uh, young children
00:55:43.630 --> 00:55:46.250
to it. I, uh, unless they're sleeping through
00:55:46.250 --> 00:55:48.590
it, then it's okay. If they're, if they're literally
00:55:48.590 --> 00:55:51.969
like weeks old and they are not aware of any
00:55:51.969 --> 00:55:55.130
of their surroundings. Uh, I still actually,
00:55:55.550 --> 00:55:57.429
I left about 15 minutes in cause it was too loud.
00:55:57.789 --> 00:56:00.530
So no, no awareness of the action that was happening,
00:56:00.670 --> 00:56:03.630
but just the sheer volume was a problem. But,
00:56:03.750 --> 00:56:07.050
um, anyway, but I, I think not for kids, but
00:56:07.050 --> 00:56:10.619
I think a good film, but now if we had to remake
00:56:10.619 --> 00:56:13.929
it. And do a family -friendly version of Zero
00:56:13.929 --> 00:56:17.420
Dark Thirty. How would you approach that? This
00:56:17.420 --> 00:56:19.820
is... I've been thinking about this. This is
00:56:19.820 --> 00:56:22.179
such a hard... Because if you want to make this
00:56:22.179 --> 00:56:25.119
family -friendly, just the story of this, of
00:56:25.119 --> 00:56:27.940
September 11th attacks, all this counterterrorism
00:56:27.940 --> 00:56:31.420
with these interrogation, torture scenes, it
00:56:31.420 --> 00:56:34.730
ends with killing a guy and his family. It's
00:56:34.730 --> 00:56:37.070
like, that's a story is inherently not a family
00:56:37.070 --> 00:56:39.769
friendly story. Like if you wanted to tell that
00:56:39.769 --> 00:56:41.909
it's just very hard to like, yeah, we're pitching
00:56:41.909 --> 00:56:43.550
this new family film. This is what it's going
00:56:43.550 --> 00:56:46.210
to be just like a realistic look at September
00:56:46.210 --> 00:56:48.070
11th in the after effects. Like that's not family
00:56:48.070 --> 00:56:51.429
friendly. So what approach do you go if you want
00:56:51.429 --> 00:56:54.469
to keep what the story is, you know, like the
00:56:54.469 --> 00:56:56.989
actual plot of it. The only thing I was thinking
00:56:56.989 --> 00:56:59.960
was Maybe because this takes more of like a realistic
00:56:59.960 --> 00:57:02.500
side, like this, this nuanced view of it. We're
00:57:02.500 --> 00:57:04.659
not really taking sides. If you did this story
00:57:04.659 --> 00:57:06.760
where it was like, we have a clear hero. This
00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:09.159
is the American perspective. This is like the,
00:57:09.159 --> 00:57:12.360
like the briefing perspective of what the president
00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:14.900
says to the press after it's all done. We had
00:57:14.900 --> 00:57:16.960
a lot of people out working together. We have
00:57:16.960 --> 00:57:19.820
a great team behind us. We were able to catch
00:57:19.820 --> 00:57:22.920
this guy with minimal deaths and minimal issues.
00:57:23.480 --> 00:57:25.579
Everything was done well, you know, like kind
00:57:25.579 --> 00:57:27.639
of what you would give as a press release. And
00:57:27.639 --> 00:57:29.539
maybe that's the film that you actually show
00:57:29.539 --> 00:57:31.940
then you make it a lot shorter. And it's like,
00:57:32.199 --> 00:57:34.019
we have good guys that are clearly good guys
00:57:34.019 --> 00:57:37.599
and they get the evidence they need. And the
00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:39.719
bad guys are clearly the bad guys. And it's kind
00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:41.940
of like this, this kind of glossed over look
00:57:41.940 --> 00:57:45.599
at it of like maybe overly patriotic. Look, I
00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:49.070
think you could maybe. work that way into a family
00:57:49.070 --> 00:57:51.909
-friendlier film? Would that be good though?
00:57:52.869 --> 00:57:56.889
I don't know who wants that, but that's the only
00:57:56.889 --> 00:57:59.510
way I could think of it. What did you have? Man,
00:57:59.610 --> 00:58:03.789
this is a tough one because I feel like it's...
00:58:04.440 --> 00:58:07.440
just so much of everything that the film is about
00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:13.320
is not really family -friendly. I mean, I think
00:58:13.320 --> 00:58:15.320
if you just, yeah, I think if you wanted to make
00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:18.960
this super pro -American and just clean up any
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:22.320
moral ambiguity and it just is, you know, it
00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:27.480
could be like female empowerment. Maya is going
00:58:27.480 --> 00:58:31.619
to work and she's stopping the bad guys. That's
00:58:31.619 --> 00:58:33.699
a weird, I don't know what to do with that. So
00:58:33.699 --> 00:58:37.440
I went with my go -to and just turned it into
00:58:37.440 --> 00:58:41.260
Zootopia, but bring the stakes down a little
00:58:41.260 --> 00:58:49.000
bit. But something terrible has happened. Something
00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:51.300
has happened to the habitat. We need to find
00:58:51.300 --> 00:58:55.820
out what happened. Uh, you know, but basically
00:58:55.820 --> 00:58:59.059
our, our bunny detective working with her Fox
00:58:59.059 --> 00:59:03.119
friend, uh, have discovered that the way that
00:59:03.119 --> 00:59:05.280
people are approaching this is like they're,
00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:07.099
they're just going through all this information
00:59:07.099 --> 00:59:09.739
and they're, they're not finding the right, they're
00:59:09.739 --> 00:59:11.679
not finding it in the right way. And so we have
00:59:11.679 --> 00:59:14.119
to go explore lots of different parts of our
00:59:14.119 --> 00:59:17.159
Zootopia landscape in order to find the information
00:59:17.159 --> 00:59:21.639
about, uh, where the, you know, I don't know
00:59:21.639 --> 00:59:24.860
where the alligator is who's been doing X, Y,
00:59:24.860 --> 00:59:27.719
and Z, and we're going to eventually find it.
00:59:27.719 --> 00:59:32.039
I don't know. This one, I just don't think this
00:59:32.039 --> 00:59:34.880
works very well as a family movie. You wouldn't
00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:37.460
have like a rabbit get waterboarded in Zootopia
00:59:37.460 --> 00:59:44.539
movie. When you lie to me, I just don't think
00:59:44.539 --> 00:59:47.900
that would work very well. So I think I'm going
00:59:47.900 --> 00:59:50.360
to go out on a limb and say this is not the right
00:59:50.360 --> 00:59:53.530
film to do a family friendly version of. And
00:59:53.530 --> 00:59:56.289
I think that it would be also pretty lame to
00:59:56.289 --> 00:59:59.650
do a stripped down, super pro -American, there
00:59:59.650 --> 01:00:03.230
is no moral ambiguity, everything was just great
01:00:03.230 --> 01:00:05.710
about every way that it was done. I think you
01:00:05.710 --> 01:00:08.690
can say these are the good guys and they did
01:00:08.690 --> 01:00:11.610
a good work and they got their hands dirty and
01:00:11.610 --> 01:00:13.510
did terrible things while doing it, but it was
01:00:13.510 --> 01:00:15.750
worth it. I think you can make that argument.
01:00:15.829 --> 01:00:18.050
I don't think you can make the argument, everything
01:00:18.050 --> 01:00:22.079
was fine and nothing bad ever happened. The official
01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:25.860
stances, yeah. It's a tricky one. But what about
01:00:25.860 --> 01:00:27.780
no budget? I think this is an interesting one.
01:00:28.079 --> 01:00:30.119
What would you do, no budget version of this
01:00:30.119 --> 01:00:33.139
film? Yeah, because a lot of this is just her
01:00:33.139 --> 01:00:35.639
in an office building. And I think you could
01:00:35.639 --> 01:00:38.119
kind of keep that of just keeping it indoors
01:00:38.119 --> 01:00:41.079
without showing the scenes. And you could do
01:00:41.079 --> 01:00:43.699
a pretty interesting story. I think it'd be interesting
01:00:43.699 --> 01:00:46.039
to start the same way if you started with those
01:00:46.039 --> 01:00:47.760
interrogation scenes, if you could keep that.
01:00:47.869 --> 01:00:49.889
Cause that's just, you know, a warehouse somewhere
01:00:49.889 --> 01:00:52.230
that you can film that in. And then she goes
01:00:52.230 --> 01:00:54.110
and it's her on the computer and you're kind
01:00:54.110 --> 01:00:56.329
of just getting these events that come back to
01:00:56.329 --> 01:00:59.289
you. And maybe this is the version, the low budget
01:00:59.289 --> 01:01:01.570
version is where you do get the text. Oh, you
01:01:01.570 --> 01:01:04.289
know, we killed them. It's done, you know, congratulations
01:01:04.289 --> 01:01:06.909
or whatever. And she like sits in her chair and
01:01:06.909 --> 01:01:09.130
I don't know what she does, but like, maybe that's
01:01:09.130 --> 01:01:11.929
the way you would go. No budget with this. And
01:01:11.929 --> 01:01:14.170
you get rid of like, you know, they have the,
01:01:14.170 --> 01:01:16.090
the bombing, the suicide bombings that are in
01:01:16.090 --> 01:01:17.710
here. There's these other scenes where there's
01:01:17.710 --> 01:01:19.909
other, like she's out in the world, but if you
01:01:19.909 --> 01:01:21.750
get rid of her out in the world and it's just
01:01:21.750 --> 01:01:25.730
the office, I think there is a film there. And
01:01:25.730 --> 01:01:27.929
I think with this, even with the scripts, you
01:01:27.929 --> 01:01:30.230
could probably work around that to make that
01:01:30.230 --> 01:01:32.949
something. But again, like we said, without that
01:01:32.949 --> 01:01:36.710
ending, this feels very depressing and like dark.
01:01:37.110 --> 01:01:39.110
Is there a way that you could end this a little
01:01:39.110 --> 01:01:41.610
happier, like make it a little more rewarding?
01:01:42.309 --> 01:01:44.449
I don't know that there is necessarily, if you,
01:01:44.449 --> 01:01:46.090
if you couldn't show anything happening, maybe
01:01:46.090 --> 01:01:47.489
you do the same thing at the end where you just
01:01:47.489 --> 01:01:50.449
show real footage of the news saying it. That
01:01:50.449 --> 01:01:52.429
could be a little bit of something, but I think
01:01:52.429 --> 01:01:54.389
there's something there, maybe not as good though.
01:01:55.110 --> 01:01:57.949
I think, uh, so my, my take on this was to, to
01:01:57.949 --> 01:02:00.230
really strip it down and not tell quite the same
01:02:00.230 --> 01:02:03.289
story, but to focus on the idea of like an interrogation.
01:02:03.539 --> 01:02:06.360
And if we do the whole movie of someone being
01:02:06.360 --> 01:02:10.539
interrogated, but I think like you just stay
01:02:10.539 --> 01:02:14.960
in a room and maybe you even, you know, fly from
01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:18.360
one site to another site, but basically, you
01:02:18.360 --> 01:02:21.300
know, you're just in a room the whole time. So
01:02:21.300 --> 01:02:23.340
like one room or another room there, basically
01:02:23.340 --> 01:02:25.599
you could film them in the same place, just dressing
01:02:25.599 --> 01:02:29.579
differently. But I think that just the, you know,
01:02:29.619 --> 01:02:34.440
almost like a play that the cat and mouse game
01:02:34.440 --> 01:02:36.519
of trying to get information in different ways.
01:02:36.820 --> 01:02:39.199
And I think it just sets itself up. I have a
01:02:39.199 --> 01:02:41.380
goal that I'm trying to get this information
01:02:41.380 --> 01:02:43.840
and I'm going to approach that in different ways
01:02:43.840 --> 01:02:46.000
and you are resisting in different ways. And
01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:48.199
so, you know, you try this way and that doesn't
01:02:48.199 --> 01:02:49.940
work. Let me try that way. Let me try this way.
01:02:50.239 --> 01:02:52.800
And I think what I would do if I were to do this,
01:02:52.820 --> 01:02:54.880
which is different from just Zero Dark Thirty,
01:02:54.940 --> 01:02:59.190
but I think if the person being interrogated
01:02:59.320 --> 01:03:03.320
wasn't just like trying to resist, but actually
01:03:03.320 --> 01:03:05.280
had something they were trying to accomplish.
01:03:06.900 --> 01:03:10.900
Like they were trying to seed some ideas into
01:03:10.900 --> 01:03:13.619
the interrogators or they were trying to get
01:03:13.619 --> 01:03:15.900
some information themselves. There's something
01:03:15.900 --> 01:03:18.159
that they were trying to do. And I think, for
01:03:18.159 --> 01:03:20.739
instance, I think you could make that work because
01:03:20.739 --> 01:03:23.400
it's like, it is a known thing that, you know,
01:03:23.400 --> 01:03:25.860
people get, you know, they get taken, they get
01:03:25.860 --> 01:03:27.639
interrogated, then they get flown to a different
01:03:27.639 --> 01:03:30.869
country. And there was a lot of like, legalese
01:03:30.869 --> 01:03:34.940
about like we're trying to follow the law, but
01:03:34.940 --> 01:03:37.019
like we're trying to follow the strict letter
01:03:37.019 --> 01:03:40.239
of the law. And so we can't do certain things
01:03:40.239 --> 01:03:43.119
if we're on American territory, but if we're
01:03:43.119 --> 01:03:45.900
in another country, we can do different things.
01:03:45.940 --> 01:03:48.800
Or if, if the person's in a different country,
01:03:49.039 --> 01:03:51.940
we can have that country's police force do something
01:03:51.940 --> 01:03:54.739
to them. I mean, and so all sorts of things like
01:03:54.739 --> 01:03:57.219
that have happened and, and, and, you know, happen
01:03:57.219 --> 01:04:00.460
in the world. And I think on a dramatic level,
01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:03.739
that's interesting of like, okay, one person
01:04:03.739 --> 01:04:05.940
knows that they're probably going to be taken
01:04:05.940 --> 01:04:10.179
from here to country X. And in country X, there's
01:04:10.179 --> 01:04:12.619
something they need to do. And there's some I
01:04:12.619 --> 01:04:14.900
don't like I think that you could make the person
01:04:14.900 --> 01:04:17.559
being interrogated more active, which is different
01:04:17.559 --> 01:04:20.500
from this film. But I think just sort of in that
01:04:20.500 --> 01:04:24.340
space, I think there's an interesting no budget
01:04:24.340 --> 01:04:28.300
film that could be made. Yeah. I also think with
01:04:28.300 --> 01:04:30.900
interrogation, this is just a little aside, but
01:04:30.900 --> 01:04:34.239
it's an interesting thing to me about these wars,
01:04:34.619 --> 01:04:38.659
Iraq, Afghanistan, that the same music that people
01:04:38.659 --> 01:04:42.179
were using to torture the people they were interrogating
01:04:42.179 --> 01:04:45.699
was the music that they were listening to in
01:04:45.699 --> 01:04:49.000
their free time. It's like, we're gonna blast
01:04:49.000 --> 01:04:51.659
drowning pool at you. And you're gonna, you're
01:04:51.659 --> 01:04:53.519
gonna tell us everything because we're blasting
01:04:53.519 --> 01:04:56.059
drowning pool at you. Let the bodies hit the
01:04:56.059 --> 01:04:58.460
floor and whatnot. But then also that's what
01:04:58.460 --> 01:05:01.320
we're listening to at the gym. Well, like in
01:05:01.320 --> 01:05:04.059
our free time, it's like, and I, apparently that
01:05:04.059 --> 01:05:06.780
song specifically by drowning pool was like the
01:05:06.780 --> 01:05:10.119
number one song for both working out for American
01:05:10.119 --> 01:05:14.599
soldiers and for enhanced interrogation. So weird.
01:05:14.820 --> 01:05:16.780
It's a weird overlap there. I'm not sure what
01:05:16.780 --> 01:05:20.590
that says about, uh, our culture or the band
01:05:20.590 --> 01:05:22.750
drowning pool, but it's a, it's a funny one.
01:05:23.010 --> 01:05:26.449
Yeah. Um, okay. But what about TV show, either
01:05:26.449 --> 01:05:30.010
an ongoing series or 10 part Netflix series?
01:05:30.190 --> 01:05:32.969
And I, there are a lot of shows that, that touch
01:05:32.969 --> 01:05:34.889
on this similar material, but I don't know what,
01:05:34.969 --> 01:05:36.849
where did you go with this? I think, I think
01:05:36.849 --> 01:05:38.909
it'd be really fun to do a TV show around this.
01:05:39.110 --> 01:05:41.190
I think if you had the, if we were to say what
01:05:41.190 --> 01:05:43.929
this movie is, which is about Maya, there is
01:05:43.929 --> 01:05:47.119
enough going on in these. that this film like
01:05:47.119 --> 01:05:49.699
that you could make episodes around all of these
01:05:49.699 --> 01:05:51.179
different events that happened. There's these
01:05:51.179 --> 01:05:53.460
different terrorist events. You could show more
01:05:53.460 --> 01:05:56.119
of her interactions with the people in the day
01:05:56.119 --> 01:05:59.360
to day. This is a 10 year span. I just feel like
01:05:59.360 --> 01:06:02.519
there's so much that you could just base it on
01:06:02.550 --> 01:06:05.489
actual historical events. Keep these characters
01:06:05.489 --> 01:06:09.050
that are fictional, but based on real people
01:06:09.050 --> 01:06:11.570
and tell a really like each episode could be
01:06:11.570 --> 01:06:13.389
so interesting. And you could have it go from.
01:06:13.719 --> 01:06:16.300
Like, cause she's this in between person, her,
01:06:16.420 --> 01:06:17.820
you could get the people that are higher ups.
01:06:17.960 --> 01:06:19.420
You could still get the soldiers perspectives
01:06:19.420 --> 01:06:21.699
on the ground. I just think this would be really
01:06:21.699 --> 01:06:25.320
fun, like interesting show with so much potential
01:06:25.320 --> 01:06:29.340
of what you could show and could tell. And it
01:06:29.340 --> 01:06:31.019
feels like there, there's probably an audience
01:06:31.019 --> 01:06:33.760
for that. Um, I don't know. I just, I don't see
01:06:33.760 --> 01:06:36.559
any downsides to that. Yeah. I mean, and I think
01:06:36.559 --> 01:06:39.659
the Maya story we see here, we don't exactly
01:06:39.659 --> 01:06:43.000
see. That story elsewhere. I don't think I mean
01:06:43.000 --> 01:06:45.400
there's the looming tower which was a series
01:06:45.400 --> 01:06:48.099
that covered sort of the build -up to 9 -eleven
01:06:48.099 --> 01:06:52.099
and then there's a There's a homeland which is
01:06:52.099 --> 01:06:54.400
totally fictional, but it's playing on some real
01:06:54.400 --> 01:06:57.840
like real thing Yeah, and the show lioness which
01:06:57.840 --> 01:06:59.800
I've been watching as well, which is an interesting
01:06:59.800 --> 01:07:02.480
one But I yeah, I think you could just explore
01:07:02.480 --> 01:07:05.579
more of the Maya character just episode by episode
01:07:05.579 --> 01:07:09.929
I took a sharp left turn on this one Because
01:07:09.929 --> 01:07:13.449
I actually know so there's one main person in
01:07:13.449 --> 01:07:17.769
my understanding that Maya is based on and I've
01:07:17.769 --> 01:07:20.570
worked with a guy who that's his mother -in -law
01:07:20.570 --> 01:07:28.650
and really And and like he and I just think what
01:07:28.650 --> 01:07:31.820
an interesting sitcom that would be If it was
01:07:31.820 --> 01:07:34.480
like everybody loves Raymond or something, but
01:07:34.480 --> 01:07:38.519
your mother -in -law was the woman who found
01:07:38.519 --> 01:07:45.260
Bin Laden. He was telling me about his wife just
01:07:45.260 --> 01:07:49.420
going to buy stuff for their baby nursery when
01:07:49.420 --> 01:07:53.219
she was expecting just with her. Oh no, I think
01:07:53.219 --> 01:07:56.159
it's stepmother -in -law. That's the thing. It's
01:07:56.159 --> 01:07:59.300
not his wife's mother. This is in real life.
01:07:59.349 --> 01:08:01.909
It's his wife's stepmother. So that anyway, I
01:08:01.909 --> 01:08:03.469
don't, maybe you keep that, maybe you don't keep
01:08:03.469 --> 01:08:05.949
that in the TV show, but I think that idea of
01:08:05.949 --> 01:08:08.849
having that person in your life in like a family
01:08:08.849 --> 01:08:12.789
sitcom, that's a, that's a crazy dynamic to have
01:08:12.789 --> 01:08:14.829
everything would just, you know, you just have
01:08:14.829 --> 01:08:17.010
regular shenanigans, but in the background of
01:08:17.010 --> 01:08:20.489
all that is I found bin Laden. And that's, uh,
01:08:20.550 --> 01:08:22.010
I think we'll, I think we'll go to the restaurant
01:08:22.010 --> 01:08:24.550
I want to go to because I am the person who found
01:08:24.550 --> 01:08:28.829
bin Laden. Is this a safe restaurant, you know?
01:08:29.189 --> 01:08:31.750
Yeah, I'm gonna sit with my back to the wall
01:08:31.750 --> 01:08:34.170
so I have a clear view of the exit and entrance.
01:08:34.909 --> 01:08:36.229
I mean, I think that could be an interesting
01:08:36.229 --> 01:08:40.689
sitcom to see. Would any of these be an improvement
01:08:40.689 --> 01:08:44.170
on the film? I don't think so. I think this film,
01:08:44.170 --> 01:08:46.970
for what it is, it just, there's not many things
01:08:46.970 --> 01:08:49.329
like it. It seems kind of like a one -of -one
01:08:49.329 --> 01:08:53.210
film. It'd be hard to recreate the time, the
01:08:53.210 --> 01:08:56.180
place, like the people. caring about it as much.
01:08:56.359 --> 01:08:58.739
Like as time goes on, I just feel like it's going
01:08:58.739 --> 01:09:00.659
to just be a different look at what things were.
01:09:01.119 --> 01:09:02.720
I think I find it hard to find a different version
01:09:02.720 --> 01:09:06.319
of this. Although a show, if I mean any TV show,
01:09:06.319 --> 01:09:08.039
if Catherine Biggle was like, I'm making a TV
01:09:08.039 --> 01:09:10.739
show about this time period, I'd be all in. I'd
01:09:10.739 --> 01:09:12.859
love to see that. Yeah. I'd love to see that
01:09:12.859 --> 01:09:16.000
show. I do think that the way that Zero Dark
01:09:16.000 --> 01:09:20.000
30 is structured, the idea that Maya has one
01:09:20.000 --> 01:09:22.800
goal and that she achieves it and then she doesn't
01:09:22.800 --> 01:09:24.970
know what to do with herself. I think that's
01:09:24.970 --> 01:09:28.430
a really, I think that is an important part of
01:09:28.430 --> 01:09:31.350
the story. And that like to then mess with that
01:09:31.350 --> 01:09:33.829
would be really to lose something. So I think
01:09:33.829 --> 01:09:38.590
this is the best way to tell it. So Zero Dark
01:09:38.590 --> 01:09:42.729
Thirty, final verdict, what are your parting
01:09:42.729 --> 01:09:45.670
words for Zero Dark Thirty? I think it's a great
01:09:45.670 --> 01:09:48.550
film. I think it holds up as of today. We will
01:09:48.550 --> 01:09:50.250
see for the future. I don't know how this is
01:09:50.250 --> 01:09:52.920
going to age. But I think it's, it's so well
01:09:52.920 --> 01:09:55.159
done. It's a unique take on it. Like we said,
01:09:55.279 --> 01:09:58.100
just the craft of it, of making it very well
01:09:58.100 --> 01:09:59.899
done. I think it's hard to argue against that.
01:10:00.300 --> 01:10:02.060
Whether you agree with the messaging or not,
01:10:02.119 --> 01:10:03.939
I think there's a lot to talk about around this,
01:10:04.039 --> 01:10:07.199
how you might feel based on where you are in
01:10:07.199 --> 01:10:08.979
life, based on your politics, based on where
01:10:08.979 --> 01:10:10.800
you're from in the world. I think that could
01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:13.779
go a long way in saying how you feel about this
01:10:13.779 --> 01:10:17.279
film as a whole, but it's made very well and
01:10:17.279 --> 01:10:19.659
it's about a specific moment in time I think
01:10:19.659 --> 01:10:22.770
is important. I think it's one that you should
01:10:22.770 --> 01:10:25.909
watch. Yeah, I agree. I think it's a great film.
01:10:26.409 --> 01:10:30.649
I think that it's a little early to say how it's
01:10:30.649 --> 01:10:34.869
going to fit in the pantheon of films. It came
01:10:34.869 --> 01:10:38.069
out and I had a reaction to it. Now I feel like
01:10:38.069 --> 01:10:40.090
there's a new generation and I don't know how
01:10:40.090 --> 01:10:42.050
they're responding and I certainly don't know
01:10:42.050 --> 01:10:44.970
how it'll be looked at in 50 years. But I think
01:10:44.970 --> 01:10:49.189
it is a great film. I think it's a weird film.
01:10:49.439 --> 01:10:52.979
to study as a model for screenwriting for the
01:10:52.979 --> 01:10:55.279
most part, because I think it's a very unusual
01:10:55.279 --> 01:10:59.119
approach to the story. And I think in some ways
01:10:59.119 --> 01:11:01.920
only works because they knew the audience would
01:11:01.920 --> 01:11:04.560
be invested in the particulars of this. Like
01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:07.140
I don't think, like you said, if this was a fictional
01:11:07.140 --> 01:11:09.359
world, I don't think we would care. I don't think
01:11:09.359 --> 01:11:11.460
that the story sells us on it enough. I think
01:11:11.460 --> 01:11:14.180
that we need to care about the actual particulars.
01:11:14.500 --> 01:11:17.819
I do think that the ending sequence with the
01:11:17.819 --> 01:11:20.439
SEAL team hunting down Bin Laden, I think that
01:11:20.439 --> 01:11:23.359
is worth studying just for how to shoot an action
01:11:23.359 --> 01:11:25.439
sequence. That is just exceptional filmmaking
01:11:25.439 --> 01:11:31.239
there. All right, so there we have it. Thank
01:11:31.239 --> 01:11:33.960
you for joining us this week of How to Make Films
01:11:33.960 --> 01:11:36.819
and Influence People. Check us out at howtomakefilmspodcast
01:11:36.819 --> 01:11:38.119
.com and we'll see you next time.