WEBVTT
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Welcome back to Headcase.
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I'm Stephanie Hoffman.
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This season we're getting real about the messiest parts of being human.
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Let's dive in.
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Welcome back to Headcase.
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I'm your host, Stephanie Hoffman, and today we are joined by a powerhouse in the world of mental health and emotional resilience.
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Dr.
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Michelle Maidenberg is a psychotherapist with over 30 years of clinical experience, a TED speaker, and an adjunct professor of mindfulness practice at NYU.
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She's the author of the award-winning book Ace Your Life, Unleash Your Best Self and Live the Life You Want, where she teaches us how to break through the stuckness of our lives using her signature Ace method.
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Beyond her practice, she's also the co-founder of the nonprofit Through My Eyes, which helps chronically ill individuals leave video legacies for their loved ones.
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And today we're diving deep into the psychology of relationships, the trap of emotional avoidance, and how we can use the pillars of acceptance, compassion, and empowerment to transform our connections with others and ourselves.
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So, Dr.
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Maidabh, welcome to the show.
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Thank you.
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Thanks for having me.
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So I just wanted to dive right in and talk to you about kind of this foundation of stuckness.
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And you say that you talk about stuckness in work and love.
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So for our listeners who feel like they're repeating the same relationship patterns, how can you tell the difference between a rough patch and it being actually like psychologically stuck?
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Right.
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Or it being like a pattern, a perpetual murder, right?
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Yes.
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So that's a great question.
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None of that has ever been asked, though.
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Kudos to you.
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Great.
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Um, yeah, stuckness, that's a big word.
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And it varies from person to person.
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We all have stuckness, including myself.
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Right.
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We we we have challenges that come up in our lives, right?
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Where we feel stuck.
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And, you know, when you're talking about differentiating between a moment-to-moment circumstance and a real stuckness that keeps us, let's say, perpetuating the same cycle of behavior, the same patterns of behavior, which could be very frustrating, obviously, and disappointing and sad.
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Um, so just to differentiate between the two, right?
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Um, I think in our lives we have challenges that come out, right?
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That are out of our control.
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Stuckness really speaks to yes, repeating patterns of behavior.
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And what we don't work on and we don't heal will perpetuate itself.
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It's inevitable.
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It's in life, in relationship.
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That's just the way it is.
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Why is that?
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It's because of our reptilium breeding.
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Right.
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It all goes back to neuroscience, literally.
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It all goes to our neurocognitive functioning.
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Our brain takes the path of least resistance.
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Right.
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It does not like to work hard.
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Right.
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So if it is familiar and it is comfortable, it's going to repeat that pattern of behavior.
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And there's some beauty in it too, because our mind and body knows when we haven't effectively worked through something, and it keeps repeating those circumstances to give us opportunities to actually heal, which is which is actually wonderful if you think about it that way.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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Absolutely.
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Um, it's a more empowering approach to think about it as opportunities rather than like this stuckness or this debilitation where you can't just get, you know, kind of rape um out of your own way.
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So you will see the same type of person in your life.
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You'll see the same type of behavior, you know, you'll see the same type of habit repeating itself over and over and over again.
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Right.
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And sometimes it's it looks different, but it's the same old thing.
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Right?
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It could be a different, like whatever, you know?
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Yeah.
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But it is, it could lead to the same emotion getting evoked.
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It could lead to the same perpetual.
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And that's also another thing.
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We habituate over emotions.
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Right, right.
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So if it's anger or sadness or whatever the case is, that's going to be familiar and comfortable too.
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You know, and an example in relationships, which you know, we hear that's talked about a lot, is sometimes if you're used to, let's say in your family of origin, this drama, right?
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This constant up and down and push and pull, right?
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We mistake passion for that.
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Right.
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Right?
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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That's such a good answer.
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Um and in your your TED talk, you talk about uh circumventing emotional avoidance.
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In a relationship context, what does emotional avoidance look like?
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And what exact what how does it actually erode the intimacy that we try to protect in a relationship?
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So again, great question.
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And I'm so appreciating your thoughtful questions.
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I really love it when I have thoughtful questions because it like makes me really challenges me to think a little bit, right?
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I'm glad I appreciate that you really put time and effort into thinking about this.
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Yeah.
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Um, so emotional avoidance, what is it, right?
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Because people are like, what is that?
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That is uh by very nature, because of our brain, it's an executive functioning that avoids danger and discomfort.
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Right.
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When we think about our brain, where it's so sophisticated, but it really isn't.
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It really isn't.
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And I compare it often to our PC.
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Right.
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When we think about our PC, I don't know about you, I I just because I don't, I don't understand, you know, the mechanism.
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I don't understand right um how it all works, even with AI right now.
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I mean, gosh, it's like mind-blowing, right?
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Like you think it has a brain.
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Yeah.
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So sophisticated.
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Right.
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But what you really now, if you really think about it, the only thing that your PC is able, right, to provide for you is anything that you've programmed into it.
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Right.
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Nothing more than that, even though it seems like it's doing a lot more sophisticated processes, right?
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Right.
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That's so true.
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That's how our brain is.
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It's that what you feed it.
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What you feed it is what you get out of it.
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Right.
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But its major major functioning is really to avoid danger and discomfort.
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It is wired that way.
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It is constantly wired for survival.
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And what about when something is safe, but your brain mistakes that as danger because it's not used to that safety?
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That's right.
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And that's this, but it's the same, that's that same mechanism.
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Right.
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Whatever is perceived, right?
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Perceived danger or perceived discomfort, it doesn't have to actually be dangerous.
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Right.
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Okay, that makes sense.
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Like, like when we're going on, like there are a lot of people that I work with that have phobias, right?
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Yeah.
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And it's it's safer to ride in a car than it is to go on a plane, but right, the person is petrified to get on the plane.
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Right.
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Right.
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And even though cognitively they know, right, that again, it's taking a risk like anything.
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If I walk down the street, I'm taking a risk too.
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Totally.
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Right.
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But they get a phobic, somatic response to their fears, right?
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It doesn't make any sense.
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Yeah.
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It just happens.
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And that's the way our brain is, too.
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You know, so we're constantly avoiding.
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So what is in that, what is in that framework is also negative emotions.
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Right.
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Okay.
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Negative emotions are perceived by our brain as dangerous and contributes to our discomfort and is uncomfortable.
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So guess what?
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It's going to avoid it like the plague.
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Yeah.
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That makes a lot of sense.
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And we get really scared and we don't understand the utility.
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Like, why do we have to feel anger?
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And why do we have to feel disappointment?
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And why do we have to feel frustration?
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A good example that that you know came up.
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So somebody came into my person, they were so distressed and frustrated.
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And I was like, What's going on?
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And they said, Oh my goodness.
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Like, I'm so angry at myself because I'm angry that I'm angry at my ex-husband.
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And I said, Why are you so angry at your ex-husband?
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It was my nine-year-old child's, you know, daughter's birthday.
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Yeah.
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And the the son of a bitch, you know, he couldn't get his act together to call her.
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He called her at nine o'clock at night, right before she went to bed.
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And she was so, so upset and disappointed.
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Why shouldn't he hear from him all day?
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What is wrong with me?
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Why can't I just accept the fact that he is, you know, right?
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Yeah.
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And I said to her, Good for you.
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I love that you're so upset right now.
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And she was like, What?
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I said, Of course I'm not happy that you're upset.
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But uh, would you really want to be okay with that?
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Right.
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Would you want to be okay with being okay?
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Right.
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I said, doesn't that connect you to your values, your parenting values?
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Exactly.
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And who you are, what it represents.
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I said, curse away.
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Yeah.
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Ex-husband for a reason.
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Right.
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Yeah, exactly.
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I said, go.
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And then she, you could see, like she all of a sudden just felt the weight lifted from her.
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And she was excited to curse and to and to ventilate her frustration.
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Right.
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And I said, sometimes there are pain and values, and there are values and pain.
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And we need that reminder.
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We need that reminder to because it connects us to who we are on a fundamental, authentic level and what we stand for.
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So we are in this cycle of constantly emotionally avoiding.
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And we need to recognize that.
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I can't tell you, people come into my office all the time.
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I don't want to feel this way.
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Yes.
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You're familiar.
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Yeah.
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I was like, good luck.
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Yeah.
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Because again, would you not would you really, what does that say about you if you actually don't have a feeling about it?
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Right.
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I mean, you're human.
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So well, and also what does that say about who you are and what you represent?
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Even more importantly, so that you could connect the emotions and actually be proud of them, not chastise yourself for having them.
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Because what we know is the more you chastise yourself, the more you resist, it intensifies the feeling and it contributes negatively to your self-confidence.
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Right.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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So yeah.
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And you talk about does he?
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Yes.
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I was going to say you talk about the inner commentator.
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And I guess that's tied to that is it's that internal voice that kind of dictates how we show up in relationships or don't.
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And I guess that has to do with that avoidance, or it's like avoiding whether it's avoiding that positive emotions or the negative emotions, constantly fighting with yourself.
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Yeah.
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It it goes it holds true for positive as well.
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Yeah.
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By the way.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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So that um intimacy and relationships is so critical to a healthy relationship.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Right.
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And when we when I talk to, I I had a client here the other day, for example, and you know, she's here because, you know, there's a lot of challenges that are coming up in her marriage.
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You know, she has a huge history, a traumatic history.
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And then she has a she had a huge trauma where she was like brutally raped in her 20s.
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I mean, it was yeah, horrible.
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Um, but you could imagine, all right, you could imagine a lot to carry, and then she's expected to be intimate and like authentic and great in her intimate relationship.
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Really hard.
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Yeah.
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So so it's it's also, I said to her, I said, what would it be like for you to hug your husband for one minute a day?
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And when you actually hug him, you close your eyes and you feel into the hug, you connect thematically with those emotions.
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Right?
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Because when we give a hug, we just you know hug and right.
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But to actually feel that and you had to see the reaction.
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It was so uncomfortable.
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She goes, she said to me, She goes, You're not gonna make me do that, are you?
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She's like, absolutely not.
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Yeah.
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I was like, one step at a time, right?
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Yeah.
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No, I think that that's such a good practice.
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Yeah.
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Just becoming more comfortable to to be more intimate.
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Because whether it's like physical touch or speaking, some people just have that block.
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We we all do.
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Yeah, we actually all do.
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Yeah.
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Um if I say something very deeply emotional, emotionally like the content to somebody, whether it's yeah, I just have an interaction this morning with somebody, a friend, and and she said to me, You're so warm and you're so kind.
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And I say, I said back to her, you're lovable.
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You engender that in me.
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That's so sweet.
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Well, but that's the way I speak because I mean it.
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I I do.
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I do because I I want every person I believe who I interact with and I have a relationship with knows I love them.
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Right.
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And I want them to know that.
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I want them to know what I love about them.
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I want them to know how lovable they are.
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Yeah, that's great.
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Yeah.
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And and she she was just so overwhelmed.
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She left me a voice message after.
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She's like, I don't even know how she's like, that I loved it, but it made me so uncomfortable at the same time.
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Right.
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That actually brings me to a question that I had about um you talk about legacy and how it's not just about the legacy, an emphasis on legacy after death, but the legacy we leave in our daily interactions.
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So to me, that is a perfect example.
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It's like giving people like saying what you feel while you're here so that they know how how you're they're impacted or your you impact them throughout their their day or their week.
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Yeah.
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The issue with that, unfortunately, this talk speaks to relationships in general.
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Yeah.
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We're not taught how to be relational.
00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:31.279
We're not, we're not, we're not taught how to be intimate.
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:34.799
And when I say intimate, I'm talking about deep emotional connection.
00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:37.519
I'm not talking about works and whatever, right?
00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:43.279
Um, we're not taught about how to express our feelings on a deep emotional level.
00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:44.960
We're not taught any of those things.
00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:51.759
When we even talk about ourselves, you know, in a deep emotional way, so uncomfortable.
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:52.879
It's so uncomfortable.
00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:55.440
I have a friend who's who's applying for graduate school.
00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:59.279
Um, she's a colleague friend, and I I wrote a letter of recommendation for her.
00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:08.639
And she called me and she said, I I have to tell you, like, again, I love what you wrote, but I don't even, I I can't even like metabolize it because it's uncomfortable.
00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:09.200
Yeah.
00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:11.600
And I said, What's uncomfortable for you?
00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:16.879
And she said, she said, it just, yeah, she said, it brings up so much.
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:24.720
Like, I'm scared that I'm not gonna get in and I'm going to disappoint you, and I'm scared that you know, that I can't live live up to those standards.
00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:28.879
And uh like just so much was coming up just by hearing those words about herself.
00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:30.240
Yeah, it's interesting.
00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:46.480
I feel like sometimes even in relationships, when you see such potential in someone and you express that, they get more freaked out and scared and kind of go back into themselves because they have their it, they they can't see it themselves.
00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:54.879
So they end up self-sabotaging in some ways, or you know, not having like a lot of anxiety around that.
00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:58.240
And I could tell you personally, I'll tell you a little personal anecdote.
00:15:58.639 --> 00:15:58.799
Sure.
00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:04.000
I couldn't always accept that myself because I didn't grow up that way.
00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:04.639
Right.
00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:07.440
And um, I'm dating somebody right now.
00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.480
I'm divorced and I'm dating somebody, and this is the first relationship.
00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:16.399
I can honestly say that, and I think I'm in that space, that's why I attracted this kind of person.
00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:16.879
Right.
00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:27.039
But where he is such a verbal, expressive, like deep, intimate person who's very emotionally intelligent.
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:30.799
And and and I have to say, it's like a world of difference.
00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:42.960
Totally, totally world of different, and and I and I am proud of myself because I could actually hear him, I could actually feel into what he says, and I actually believe it.
00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:43.519
Yeah.
00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:45.519
Whoa.
00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:47.039
Life-changing.
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:49.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:55.600
And I'm able to also reciprocate, yeah, and feel comfortable and heard and seen.
00:16:55.840 --> 00:16:58.159
Yeah, and it leads to such deeper connection.
00:16:58.240 --> 00:16:58.480
Absolutely.
00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:01.840
But all of that, all of that is a learned process.
00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:03.919
We're not taught how to be that way.
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:09.359
And for him, it's interesting because of his upbringing and what he went through, he was led there too.
00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:11.599
It wasn't organic for him either.
00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:31.759
Yeah, I think also with social media and everything, kind of makes everything worse because people don't interact as much face to face, and they they communicate a lot over text message or you know, over Instagram, and it's all could get becomes confusing and elusive and impersonal.
00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:37.279
Yeah, and and how many people feel comfortable with all these like emojis and whatever.
00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:37.920
Yeah.
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.440
Just don't actually show your emotions.
00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:42.079
Exactly.
00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:43.279
Or an infographics.
00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:46.000
Like they have all the like, I mean, right?
00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:51.599
But like actually looking in someone's eyes and conveying those words.
00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:56.640
No, it's terrifying, it's like too vulnerable for people to comprehend.
00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:00.559
So uncomfortable, both semantically and emotionally and psychologically.
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:01.759
It feels so uncomfortable.
00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:08.880
Um, so I wanted to actually talk to you a little bit about the ACE method that you wrote about.
00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:11.839
Um, so acceptance is the letter A.
00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:15.920
So many people think acceptance means giving up or settling.
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:20.400
Um, how do you define radical self-acceptance within a partnership?
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:23.279
And why is that the first step to change?
00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:23.920
Yeah.
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:25.359
Great question.
00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:32.720
So, yes, I think that there is a misnomer where people do think that acceptance is accepting mediocrity.
00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:33.839
Right.
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:41.279
And people are fearful of accepting because they feel that that's going to inhibit in some way their motivation.
00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:42.240
Right.
00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:51.039
And in relationships, particularly, when we're talking about, you know, radical acceptance, it's again, what you see is what you get.
00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:52.640
Yeah.
00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:53.279
Right.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:55.839
And we can't will somebody into changing.
00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:57.359
We can as much as we want to.
00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:59.599
And it's there's a lot of judgments.
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.839
They should be this way, they should be behaving this way, they ought to, they must.
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:04.480
Right.
00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:11.359
And that's okay if we have those needs, but we also have to accept that somebody else may not be in that space.
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:12.000
Right.
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:12.640
Absolutely.
00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:15.759
That may not be the best relationship for you, for example, right?
00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:20.799
Um, I mean, or or if you are going to be accepting.
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.039
So accepting is about noticing.
00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:27.599
It's about being open and having full conscious awareness.
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:29.359
That's what acceptance is.
00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:30.000
Right.
00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:38.480
It's not denying, it's not avoiding, it's not deflecting, it's not getting defensive about it's noticing.
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:38.799
Yeah.
00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.559
With full openness and conscious awareness.
00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:43.359
Wow.
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:44.640
That's amazing.
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:46.720
It's pretty rare, I feel like.
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:48.000
Oh, yeah.
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:48.640
It is.
00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:49.279
It is.
00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:49.680
Yeah.
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:51.839
And by the way, it's a portal.
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:52.480
Okay.
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:54.480
So triggers are treasures.
00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:55.279
Right.
00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:58.559
It's a portal to understanding yourself better.
00:19:58.720 --> 00:19:59.119
Yeah.
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:05.519
Understanding your needs and recognizing if, like, again, how you could connect with the person.
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:05.920
Right.
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:12.640
Because it could be a timing issue, even if that person maybe they will get there, but they're not able to in that moment.
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:16.640
So they have to, they're just not going to be the person for you at this time.
00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:17.200
Yeah.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:18.640
And and it's it's interesting.
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:20.799
So, like, again, I'll just talk about my own release chip.
00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:21.119
Yeah.
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:23.599
Comes up.
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.519
But um, you know, we're all imperfect, right?
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.640
And um, I'm kind of type A, as you could probably tell.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:34.480
And and I do, I have very high standards.
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:49.119
And and my past life, I was pretty judgmental, you know, and and got disappointed because people, you know, weren't meeting my standards, and there was judgment about like who they were because they couldn't meet my standards, etc.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:51.279
I've done a lot of personal work.
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:51.920
Yeah.
00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:58.079
But when that comes up for me, right, when I see faultiness, right?
00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:00.000
I don't blame.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:06.160
I say, what is that about me that I can't be accepting of that?
00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:08.720
That's a really good way to look at it.
00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:09.279
Yeah.
00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:09.920
Yeah.
00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:12.000
What is a triggering in me?
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:13.359
Nobody triggers me.
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:14.400
I get triggered.
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:16.000
Yeah, yeah, it's true.
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:17.359
And what is that?
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:19.359
And then I become curious.
00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:19.759
Yeah.
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:22.000
And I learned something about myself.
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:28.880
And I could express myself in a way that's both thoughtful, kind, respectful, and vulnerable.
00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:29.839
Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:40.079
I could say, you know, when you and there was, I mean, there was an example that came up where I felt, you know, he did something that I that I didn't I didn't get.
00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:46.960
I was like, it was so to me, according to my standards, was so off the cuff.
00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:47.279
Yeah.
00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:54.319
And I and and then and I I had to take a step back and say to myself, like, you're being judgmental.
00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:59.839
And like, you know, why, you know, did he do this and find out about it?
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.279
It and and it was more about what it brought up in me.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:03.839
Yeah.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:16.240
My mind spiraled, it was so interesting, into it makes bad judgments and oh my goodness, and like into this whole diatrab of like, you know, and what does that mean to me?
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:17.519
What does that mean to our relationship?
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:19.039
And now that I'm aging, right?
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:26.880
It's like, oh my God, if I'm with this person, and and I literally had this fantasy in my brain, which is again, I just want to show you where our brain goes, right?
00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:27.200
Right.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:34.480
Of like, I'm gonna be an old lady, you know, an older person, and I'm gonna be stuck in the middle of the street, and you know, this person's gonna have to care for me.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:37.200
And he the decisions, yeah.
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:41.279
And he said something the most extreme, yeah.
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:45.680
And he said to me, because I said to him what it evoked in me in a very respectful way.
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:48.079
And I said, This is about me, this has nothing to do with you.
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.519
And he actually took responsibility for his part in it, which was beautiful, right?
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:51.839
Right.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:53.440
That was really helpful for me.
00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:56.480
But um, I said, Do you see where my brain goes?
00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:57.119
Yeah.
00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:05.920
And then what he said to me, which was so beautiful, he said, Michelle, do you also remember regarding all the good decisions that I make?
00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:07.759
Yeah, it's true.
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:09.200
Because we are human.
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:10.480
That's right.
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:12.720
And I was like, You see, this is what I need to hear.
00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:14.319
Like, and I appreciated that.
00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:15.359
I didn't get defensive.
00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:16.240
I didn't get it.
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:18.960
I was like, this is what is helping me to grow.
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:20.240
Right, exactly.
00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:25.200
It's like with every bad decision, there is probably five good ones.
00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:29.519
So it kind of have to outweigh the good with the bad.
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:38.720
Um, and then for compassion, the C, um, on Instagram you've shared about the healing power of writing to your inner child.
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:47.839
Um, how does reparenting ourselves change the way we react when a partner triggers our insecurities, like you were just talking about?
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:48.240
Yeah.
00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:49.519
So it's inevitable.
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:52.960
And if you're not getting triggered, you're not growing.
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:55.519
So I I want to say you gotta be given.
00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:56.079
Yeah.
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:58.240
Because we're we're never finished growing.
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:00.240
That's just the way it is, right?
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:04.079
So we're never taught to be self-compassionate.
00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:05.599
I can't say that enough.
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:11.279
We're taught to be compassionate towards others, never ever taught to be self-compassionate.
00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:12.000
So true.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:12.799
Yeah.
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:18.559
So it is so pivotal to like in our work to learn to be self-compassionate.
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:20.720
And change really comes from that space.
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:27.759
In other words, you know, we used to think that if we chastise somebody and tough love gets somebody motivated for change.
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:29.759
Now we know it's the opposite.
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:30.480
Right.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.759
People change when they feel confident about themselves.
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:34.640
Yeah.
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:35.839
It's so true.
00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:41.599
So nurturing that inner part of you and doing that inner work is so critical.
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:42.640
It's so critical.
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:48.799
You cannot have an open, caring, respectful relationship with another person, right?
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:50.240
Unless you know your stuff.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:51.680
Yeah, absolutely.
00:24:52.079 --> 00:25:01.039
You're gonna be bouncing it off each other, and it's gonna lead to a lot of chaos and disagreement and aggression and other things.
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:01.440
Right.
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:08.240
So it's really important on both people, and that's where that's where trouble comes into relationships, by the way.
00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:09.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:09.759
Right.
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:29.279
When two people are not in the same space, and you know, let's say one person is into kind of a growth process or they're kind of into their right, really learning about themselves, um, and another person is really shut down and and really, really, you know, avoids that becomes very problematic.
00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:29.759
Right.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:30.480
Right.
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:36.559
Cause you're just basically playing a big a game of ping-pong by yourself.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:42.079
It is, and and it becomes it becomes very frustrating, and that's where resentment comes in.
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:42.720
Yeah.
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:49.119
So the most important part of deep relationships is empathy and compassion.
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:59.519
So whether it's your partner feeling distressed, whether they have, you know, and and again, we feel distressed on multiple levels, right?
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:01.920
It could be somatic and a physiological, right?
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.839
It could be emotional, it could be whatever, you know, comes up.
00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:17.599
So if you could have come, even though you may not understand it, and even though you may not necessarily have experienced it, yeah, you could still have compassion.
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:18.799
Absolutely.
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:36.079
It's like an emotional intelligence to you almost can't hate someone if you have enough emotional intelligence because you just you do have that compassion and that empathy for someone regardless, because you know that it comes from somewhere and that's some something they can't control.
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:36.640
Yeah.
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:46.720
A good example of that is I ask, you know, when people tend to be, you know, harsh with themselves and and you know, doubt their soul, you know, their self-worthiness.
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:51.279
And I I say to them, you know, what what's your philosophy about people?
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:56.559
Do you feel innately that people have worse that people, you know, etc.?
00:26:56.880 --> 00:26:58.559
And they'll say, of course.
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:01.200
And I'll say, Oh, that doesn't apply to you.
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:01.920
No.
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:06.319
And I'll look at me at the board, yeah, I guess.
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:09.200
We're our own worst critics.
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:15.759
Like we the the people say the meanest things to themselves that they would never repeat out loud to another human.
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:17.279
And it's really interesting.
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.440
I mean, the brain believes what you tell it too.
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:26.720
So it's the more you say these negative things, the more you believe it, and then it'll transpire into your relationships.
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:27.279
100%.
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:39.119
I just wrote an article for psychology today about self-blame, and it's all about um how um our relationship with our parents, right, could perpetuate that self-blame.
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:41.039
And it speaks to all of that.
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:48.640
That's where you get like people pleasing and you know, all of those kind of great um adaptations that come up while mentally.
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:49.440
It's interesting.
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:49.759
Yeah.
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:50.160
Yeah.
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:55.119
I did have a question about that, but first I just wanted to finish the E, empowerment.
00:27:55.359 --> 00:28:00.559
Um, so you teach about empowerment as a value-based, uh value-based decision making.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:10.960
So, how can a couple move from making decisions based on fear or reactivity and then making them based on the those short shared core values that they actually found in each other?
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:11.680
Yeah.
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.119
We never want to make decisions based on our thoughts and feelings.
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:16.720
Unequivocably.
00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:18.640
They're not accurate.
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:22.319
Yeah, they could be irrational, they could be, yeah, momentary.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:25.839
We we really it has to be based on our values, our core values.
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:27.920
Um, and I teach people how to do that.
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:28.319
Right.
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:33.279
So what's lovely sometimes when I work with couples, it'll is I'll do a values review.
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:38.799
And what's beautiful about that is they see, you know, innately where their values align.
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:45.359
So any kind of decision making that you're making, both individually and as a couple, could come from that space.
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:45.920
Right.
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:46.400
Okay.
00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:56.799
So when there's a disagreement or misunderstanding or whatever the case is, right, and that something's not aligning, what it typically is is a conflict in values.
00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:07.440
In other words, they may have the same array of values, but they're thinking about one particular value more formative in that situation more than another value.
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:08.000
Right.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:08.480
Okay.
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:12.160
So if you're able to understand, and this is deep, right?
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:20.319
If you're able to conceptualize that and frame it that way, you could say, oh, okay, I get.
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:23.680
Like in this situation, not always, right?
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:24.880
Because we go to that place.
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:25.440
Yeah.
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:28.480
That you're seeing this as more important than this.
00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:30.799
And that's why we're not really aligning.
00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:31.359
Right.
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:32.319
That makes sense.
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:32.880
Right.
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:42.160
So let's sit down and talk about and think about, you know, how can we come to some like mutual space where both of our needs could be met?
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:42.720
Right.
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:43.839
That makes a lot of sense.
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:59.359
Because I feel like a lot of people will get in huge fights or have these like toxic breakups or blowout fights or toxic relationships rather, and have breakups based on emotions and feelings that they don't they don't even talk through.
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:02.559
So that's really interesting way to way to think about it.
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:10.640
It really, it's really a roadmap for decision making, especially again in couple relationships, because sometimes there's stuckness, obviously, right?
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:11.200
Yeah.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:15.839
Um, so even when there's decisions, like sometimes it feels like a dead end.
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:20.559
Like, I don't know, if you're disciplining children or whatever, right?
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:25.440
Um yeah, there's so many things that come up where there's this kind of standstill.
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:30.880
And if you frame it that way, it really helps to glide through it so that you're able to really have mutuality.
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:32.720
Yeah, absolutely.
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:44.799
So going back to what you said before, um, kind of intergenerational trauma and you know, even having like emotionally immature parents, it's kind of tied together.
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:46.880
Um, how do we stop?
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:54.880
I guess two-part question, how do we stop passing the baton on from you know, family trauma to our partners or our children?
00:30:55.200 --> 00:31:07.039
And then what's your advice for this like emotional detachment to an emotionally unavailable parent or a mature parent without losing the relationship?
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:09.279
Ooh, that's a big question.
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:09.839
Yeah.
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:15.200
So um okay, so I'm gonna take the first part of it.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:17.279
And if I didn't if I don't get all of it, just let me know.
00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:23.759
But um, so the first part, what I heard you say was about the you know, the context of the couple relationship, right?
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:26.960
And how you don't um spill over.
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:27.839
Yes.
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:30.400
Right from your inner core wounds.
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:30.880
Yeah.
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:35.119
Again, that has to do with a lot of self-awareness, yeah, right.
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:48.319
Yeah, and really understanding what comes up, you know, and when you have that context, the beauty of it is that you could catch yourself and your partner could catch it too.
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:49.119
Right.
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:58.160
So when it's happening, it's not taken personally, it's not taken defensively, it's like, oh, she's feeling unsafe right now.
00:31:58.400 --> 00:31:58.720
Right.
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:06.880
Oh, she's scared of what, you know, and I I say that like to you know, my partner, I say stuff for me comes out of fear.
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:07.440
Yeah.
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:11.680
It looks sometimes like aggression or right, and that could be scary.
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:12.559
Yeah, absolutely.
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.720
But I want you to know underneath that is like such vulnerability and fear.
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:23.920
So if you see that part of me come out, because that's my adaptation that I used to do as a kid, yeah, I said, call me on it.
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:25.680
Because I don't, I don't want to do that.
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:28.640
Like you say to me, what are you fearful of?
00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:32.160
And right away when I hear that, boom.
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:33.759
You'll center back in.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:34.079
Yeah.
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:34.640
Totally.
00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:37.680
I feel like 99% of the time it's fear.
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:39.359
Yeah, it is, it is.
00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:40.319
And I get vulnerable.
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:42.480
I'm like, you know, it's like a little adult.
00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:43.519
And I'm like, oh god.
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:46.880
And then I could I could also hold myself accountable for my baby, right?
00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:47.440
Totally.
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:47.839
Absolutely.
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:48.640
Gosh.
00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:52.640
Yeah, that I did not, that was so not my authentic self.
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:54.079
And I really apologize for that.
00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:56.240
I could really like hone in on that.
00:32:56.400 --> 00:33:04.240
Um, so I think you have to own your stuff, you have to hold yourself accountable, you have to study yourself, you have to, yeah, that's really, you know, critical.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:12.240
Um, and also when you are communicating, you have to communicate not from the wounded part, right?
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:16.000
Right, but from the hurt or the fear or whatever the case is.
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:17.599
And I teach people how to do that.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:18.000
Right.
00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:18.960
So that's a skill.
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:20.160
That really is a skill.
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:24.000
In terms of, you know, emotional detachment from parents.
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:26.880
Um, again, we don't get to choose our parents.
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:29.759
Often it is a splinter in a relationship.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:33.039
But so that that's a whole other thing segment.
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:40.000
But I'm working with somebody that just came up and she went to go visit her mother, you know, and I did actually EMDR with her, which is that machine right back there.
00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:40.400
Yeah.
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:41.759
Um, some deeper work.
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:50.079
And I had her prepare preemptively what it would be like to be in that space with her mom for those days.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:51.680
And it was so amazing.
00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:56.240
She sent to me, she said, I was so grounded and I was so centered until the last day.
00:33:56.480 --> 00:33:56.799
Right.
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:57.279
Yeah.
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:01.519
And something happened and she spilled over, but she said to me, she goes, I'm so appreciative.
00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:05.279
Because it would usually last two weeks that I was distressed.
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:07.680
She said it lasted a couple of hours.
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:08.719
That's great.
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:10.639
And I was like, Yay.
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:11.440
Yeah.
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:16.239
I mean, I feel like if your partner doesn't trigger you the most, your parents will.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:18.159
So it makes a lot of sense.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:18.800
Yes.
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:21.440
And like I said, triggers with treasures, it's a good thing.
00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:22.159
Yeah.
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:22.960
Yeah.
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:33.119
Um, and so I had a question about your um your nonprofit.
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:35.599
So the work you do is very moving.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:45.199
And how has working with people at the end of their lives influenced your perspective on what makes a success a successful relationship in the present?
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:46.000
Yeah.
00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:52.800
So um, my my nonprofit, first of all, is another child.
00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:58.800
Um, and I do want to just say that I am looking to um restructure.
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:04.320
So I am looking for partners and yeah, I really want to do it more on a vast level um nationally.
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:05.840
So I want to put that out there.
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:06.960
Yeah, absolutely.
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:08.239
It's so important.
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:10.719
Um if anybody's interested.
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:13.199
Um yes, I'll put all the information.
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:13.920
Thank you.
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:15.119
I really appreciate it.
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:26.320
So, yes, there is such it's such a gift to speak to people at end of life and to hear from them what what they find important.
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:26.880
Yeah.
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:27.360
Right.
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:32.559
I'm a nurse, so I have worked with people at the end of their life a lot.
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:40.719
And it is so moving and important to be able to be listen to their experiences up until that point.
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:43.280
Because they it comes with a lot of clarity.
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:44.480
Absolutely.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:46.079
And experience, right?
00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:47.599
And also vulnerability.
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:48.400
Absolutely.
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:48.960
Yeah.
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:51.119
So what do people always say?
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:56.719
You know, they say that they spent their time, right, and the priorities in the wrong space.
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:58.880
Like that, that's first of all, right?
00:35:59.039 --> 00:35:59.199
Right.
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:00.400
You can't get the time back.
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:00.960
That's number one.
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:02.239
Working too much.
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:03.199
Yeah.
00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:20.079
And and one thing that sticks out based on, and it it kind of was a theme based on our conversation today, is that they did not communicate in a vulnerable way and express themselves in an authentic, vulnerable way to people they love.
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:21.039
Yeah.
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:22.559
That is huge.
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:24.400
That comes up all the time.
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:24.719
Yeah.
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:25.599
All the time.
00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:27.599
And there's a lot of regret around that.
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:28.639
I can imagine.
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:33.679
And whether it's children, uh, you know, I could I could tell you just one example too for myself.
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:34.559
I have four children.
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:35.280
Oh, wow.
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:35.840
Yeah.
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:39.679
I have three boys and a girl on my 25 to 17.
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:43.039
So I I make my children really uncomfortable.
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:48.159
You have to say because I I want to challenge that part of them.
00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:48.559
Yeah.
00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:53.599
Um, but when I like I'll be sitting with my daughter, right?
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:55.039
And she's a senior in high school.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:59.360
I'll be sitting with her if this happened, like, you know, um, and we'll be having a conversation.
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:13.599
And I stop and I say to her, Cora, I just want to tell you, like, I'm just taking in this moment, and I love that we're sharing and that you're feel like open enough and trusting enough of me to share your feelings.
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:19.199
And I just want to tell you how much I adore you and how much this meet this moment means to me.
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:19.920
Yeah.
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:22.480
She she'd like, Ma, stop it, you know.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:24.239
She gets all like freaked out, you know.
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:24.639
Yeah.
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:28.880
No, but she'll learn that as she gets older, and that will be so beneficial.
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:30.559
She'll expect it.
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:31.440
Yeah.
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:33.840
I want her to expect it.
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:34.719
Yeah, absolutely.
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:38.800
I want her the I want her to expect that from her partner.
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:39.280
Yeah.
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:42.079
She won't settle for anything less after that.
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:42.800
That's right.
00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:48.880
And I want her to have the verbiage and the sophistication to be able to express it to people she loves.
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:49.599
And that's great.
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:50.960
It's okay that it's uncomfortable.
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:52.559
And I say, I know it's uncomfortable.
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:54.320
I know I'm being mom, you know.
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:55.360
You know me.
00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:56.000
Yeah.
00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:59.039
But there's a part of her that loves it, and I know that too.
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:00.400
Absolutely.
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:02.960
It's a really healthy way to parent, too.
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:04.800
So that's very key.
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:15.039
Um, so if you could leave our listeners with one actionable step to ace their relationship starting right now, what would it be?
00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:19.440
To be open to looking at yourself.
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:20.159
Okay.
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:20.880
Yeah.
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:22.000
That's great.
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:25.119
And to be willing to be uncomfortable.
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:25.679
Yeah.
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:28.639
To be willing to be uncomfortable, because it it is uncomfortable.
00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:31.599
It's uncomfortable and it's okay to be uncomfortable.
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:32.079
Yeah.
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:33.920
Like it's so okay.
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:34.559
Yeah.
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:43.920
And I know you do a lot of um like polyvagal theory and ACT and you know, nervous system resets.
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:51.199
So what's a tip you can give to someone who's kind of going through a crisis like right now or a breakup or something like that?
00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:52.719
Is to always check in.
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:53.920
Is to always check in.
00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:03.920
I I love doing like a body scan or a check-in, you know, especially if you're going through something, you know, adversity is like in in the you know, beginning of the day.
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:06.559
And again, I'm I'm a proponent of mindfulness, of course.
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:08.320
So that's huge, you know.
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:18.079
Uh, but to take the time, like even when you wake up in the morning, close your eyes, check in with your body on a scale from zero to five, rate, how am I feeling?
00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:18.480
Yeah.
00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:21.199
What what emotions am I sitting with?
00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:27.280
You know, and what, you know, again, mindset am I going into my day with?
00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:28.079
Right.
00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:29.360
Check in.
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:32.400
That that helps to reset it in a split second.
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:33.280
Yeah.
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:34.639
Excellent advice.
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:36.639
Just being self-aware of how you're feeling.
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:37.760
Yeah, exactly.
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:38.719
And you could do that.
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:49.039
I also recommend a values review at the end of the day, which is I I talk about that in my book, but which values did I lean into and which villa values did I lean out of today?
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:51.440
And which do I want to focus more on tomorrow?
00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:56.400
The reason for that is it's a lot more empowering than say, oh my gosh, I was a horrible mother, you know.
00:39:56.639 --> 00:40:02.159
But like, no, like I didn't lean into my value of parenting today as much as I wanted to, and I'm gonna do it better.
00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:03.440
That's great advice.
00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:04.480
Thank you so much.
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:06.960
Well, thank you for coming on my podcast.
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:10.719
I'd love to have you on again in the future, talk about some other things.
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:13.360
Um, yeah, it was great having you.
00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:14.880
Thank you so much for having me.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:16.320
And I loved your question.
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:16.880
Thank you.
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:27.119
And I'll put all of your information on under the episode, and hopefully, all our listeners can come find you and maybe even be a bit a patient because it sounds like you really help people.
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:29.360
Join our community.
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:36.559
Subscribe now to Head Case because breaking the stigma around mental health, that's something we should do together.
00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:07.919
Welcome back to Headcase.
00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:09.439
I'm Stephanie Hoffman.
00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:13.359
This season we're getting real about the messiest parts of being human.
00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:14.800
Let's dive in.
00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:16.719
Welcome back to Headcase.
00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:22.719
I'm your host, Stephanie Hoffman, and today we are joined by a powerhouse in the world of mental health and emotional resilience.
00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:23.280
Dr.
00:00:23.359 --> 00:00:33.920
Michelle Maidenberg is a psychotherapist with over 30 years of clinical experience, a TED speaker, and an adjunct professor of mindfulness practice at NYU.
00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:45.520
She's the author of the award-winning book Ace Your Life, Unleash Your Best Self and Live the Life You Want, where she teaches us how to break through the stuckness of our lives using her signature Ace method.
00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:54.240
Beyond her practice, she's also the co-founder of the nonprofit Through My Eyes, which helps chronically ill individuals leave video legacies for their loved ones.
00:00:54.479 --> 00:01:07.439
And today we're diving deep into the psychology of relationships, the trap of emotional avoidance, and how we can use the pillars of acceptance, compassion, and empowerment to transform our connections with others and ourselves.
00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:08.079
So, Dr.
00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:09.840
Maidabh, welcome to the show.
00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:10.560
Thank you.
00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:11.920
Thanks for having me.
00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:18.159
So I just wanted to dive right in and talk to you about kind of this foundation of stuckness.
00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:22.480
And you say that you talk about stuckness in work and love.
00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:34.319
So for our listeners who feel like they're repeating the same relationship patterns, how can you tell the difference between a rough patch and it being actually like psychologically stuck?
00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:34.959
Right.
00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:38.400
Or it being like a pattern, a perpetual murder, right?
00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:39.040
Yes.
00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:40.640
So that's a great question.
00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:42.799
None of that has ever been asked, though.
00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:44.159
Kudos to you.
00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:44.560
Great.
00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:48.079
Um, yeah, stuckness, that's a big word.
00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:50.239
And it varies from person to person.
00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:52.799
We all have stuckness, including myself.
00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:53.439
Right.
00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:57.120
We we we have challenges that come up in our lives, right?
00:01:57.280 --> 00:01:59.120
Where we feel stuck.
00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:16.560
And, you know, when you're talking about differentiating between a moment-to-moment circumstance and a real stuckness that keeps us, let's say, perpetuating the same cycle of behavior, the same patterns of behavior, which could be very frustrating, obviously, and disappointing and sad.
00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:20.080
Um, so just to differentiate between the two, right?
00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:24.319
Um, I think in our lives we have challenges that come out, right?
00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:25.840
That are out of our control.
00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:30.879
Stuckness really speaks to yes, repeating patterns of behavior.
00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:36.800
And what we don't work on and we don't heal will perpetuate itself.
00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:37.840
It's inevitable.
00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:40.560
It's in life, in relationship.
00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:42.400
That's just the way it is.
00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:43.360
Why is that?
00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:45.599
It's because of our reptilium breeding.
00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:46.159
Right.
00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:48.560
It all goes back to neuroscience, literally.
00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:51.360
It all goes to our neurocognitive functioning.
00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:54.560
Our brain takes the path of least resistance.
00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:55.120
Right.
00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:57.120
It does not like to work hard.
00:02:58.080 --> 00:02:58.719
Right.
00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:04.560
So if it is familiar and it is comfortable, it's going to repeat that pattern of behavior.
00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:24.800
And there's some beauty in it too, because our mind and body knows when we haven't effectively worked through something, and it keeps repeating those circumstances to give us opportunities to actually heal, which is which is actually wonderful if you think about it that way.
00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:25.599
Yeah.
00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:26.319
Right?
00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:27.039
Absolutely.
00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:39.840
Um, it's a more empowering approach to think about it as opportunities rather than like this stuckness or this debilitation where you can't just get, you know, kind of rape um out of your own way.
00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:43.280
So you will see the same type of person in your life.
00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:51.439
You'll see the same type of behavior, you know, you'll see the same type of habit repeating itself over and over and over again.
00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:51.840
Right.
00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:57.360
And sometimes it's it looks different, but it's the same old thing.
00:03:57.680 --> 00:03:58.000
Right?
00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:02.080
It could be a different, like whatever, you know?
00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:02.479
Yeah.
00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:06.560
But it is, it could lead to the same emotion getting evoked.
00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:08.800
It could lead to the same perpetual.
00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:10.240
And that's also another thing.
00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:12.400
We habituate over emotions.
00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:13.360
Right, right.
00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:20.800
So if it's anger or sadness or whatever the case is, that's going to be familiar and comfortable too.
00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:31.759
You know, and an example in relationships, which you know, we hear that's talked about a lot, is sometimes if you're used to, let's say in your family of origin, this drama, right?
00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:35.519
This constant up and down and push and pull, right?
00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:37.920
We mistake passion for that.
00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:38.800
Right.
00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:39.680
Right?
00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:40.639
Absolutely.
00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:41.519
Yeah.
00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:44.240
That's such a good answer.
00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:51.680
Um and in your your TED talk, you talk about uh circumventing emotional avoidance.
00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:56.399
In a relationship context, what does emotional avoidance look like?
00:04:56.639 --> 00:05:04.639
And what exact what how does it actually erode the intimacy that we try to protect in a relationship?
00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:07.439
So again, great question.
00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:10.639
And I'm so appreciating your thoughtful questions.
00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:15.279
I really love it when I have thoughtful questions because it like makes me really challenges me to think a little bit, right?
00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:21.199
I'm glad I appreciate that you really put time and effort into thinking about this.
00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:21.759
Yeah.
00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:24.560
Um, so emotional avoidance, what is it, right?
00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:25.920
Because people are like, what is that?
00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:34.959
That is uh by very nature, because of our brain, it's an executive functioning that avoids danger and discomfort.
00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:35.680
Right.
00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:42.480
When we think about our brain, where it's so sophisticated, but it really isn't.
00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:43.759
It really isn't.
00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:47.199
And I compare it often to our PC.
00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:47.839
Right.
00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:55.040
When we think about our PC, I don't know about you, I I just because I don't, I don't understand, you know, the mechanism.
00:05:55.120 --> 00:06:00.319
I don't understand right um how it all works, even with AI right now.
00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:02.720
I mean, gosh, it's like mind-blowing, right?
00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:04.079
Like you think it has a brain.
00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:04.480
Yeah.
00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:06.480
So sophisticated.
00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:07.199
Right.
00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:18.000
But what you really now, if you really think about it, the only thing that your PC is able, right, to provide for you is anything that you've programmed into it.
00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:18.560
Right.
00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:24.560
Nothing more than that, even though it seems like it's doing a lot more sophisticated processes, right?
00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:24.879
Right.
00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:25.600
That's so true.
00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:28.160
That's how our brain is.
00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:30.079
It's that what you feed it.
00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:32.720
What you feed it is what you get out of it.
00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:33.360
Right.
00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:39.040
But its major major functioning is really to avoid danger and discomfort.
00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:40.399
It is wired that way.
00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:42.800
It is constantly wired for survival.
00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:52.319
And what about when something is safe, but your brain mistakes that as danger because it's not used to that safety?
00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:53.040
That's right.
00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:55.839
And that's this, but it's the same, that's that same mechanism.
00:06:56.079 --> 00:06:56.639
Right.
00:06:56.879 --> 00:06:59.360
Whatever is perceived, right?
00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:04.639
Perceived danger or perceived discomfort, it doesn't have to actually be dangerous.
00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:05.040
Right.
00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:05.920
Okay, that makes sense.
00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:09.920
Like, like when we're going on, like there are a lot of people that I work with that have phobias, right?
00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:11.279
Yeah.
00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:19.519
And it's it's safer to ride in a car than it is to go on a plane, but right, the person is petrified to get on the plane.
00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:19.920
Right.
00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:20.319
Right.
00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:26.639
And even though cognitively they know, right, that again, it's taking a risk like anything.
00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:28.480
If I walk down the street, I'm taking a risk too.
00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:29.199
Totally.
00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:30.079
Right.
00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:34.079
But they get a phobic, somatic response to their fears, right?
00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:35.519
It doesn't make any sense.
00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:35.839
Yeah.
00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:36.800
It just happens.
00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:38.720
And that's the way our brain is, too.
00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:41.360
You know, so we're constantly avoiding.
00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:45.199
So what is in that, what is in that framework is also negative emotions.
00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:45.680
Right.
00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:46.160
Okay.
00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:55.199
Negative emotions are perceived by our brain as dangerous and contributes to our discomfort and is uncomfortable.
00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:56.240
So guess what?
00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:57.839
It's going to avoid it like the plague.
00:07:58.079 --> 00:07:58.319
Yeah.
00:07:58.800 --> 00:07:59.920
That makes a lot of sense.
00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:02.879
And we get really scared and we don't understand the utility.
00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:04.079
Like, why do we have to feel anger?
00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:06.000
And why do we have to feel disappointment?
00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:07.439
And why do we have to feel frustration?
00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:10.480
A good example that that you know came up.
00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:14.160
So somebody came into my person, they were so distressed and frustrated.
00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:15.600
And I was like, What's going on?
00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:17.519
And they said, Oh my goodness.
00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:23.360
Like, I'm so angry at myself because I'm angry that I'm angry at my ex-husband.
00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:26.160
And I said, Why are you so angry at your ex-husband?
00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:29.360
It was my nine-year-old child's, you know, daughter's birthday.
00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:29.759
Yeah.
00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:36.240
And the the son of a bitch, you know, he couldn't get his act together to call her.
00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:38.799
He called her at nine o'clock at night, right before she went to bed.
00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:41.279
And she was so, so upset and disappointed.
00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:42.960
Why shouldn't he hear from him all day?
00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:44.080
What is wrong with me?
00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:47.039
Why can't I just accept the fact that he is, you know, right?
00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:47.279
Yeah.
00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:49.360
And I said to her, Good for you.
00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:51.519
I love that you're so upset right now.
00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:52.720
And she was like, What?
00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:55.840
I said, Of course I'm not happy that you're upset.
00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:58.879
But uh, would you really want to be okay with that?
00:08:59.120 --> 00:08:59.679
Right.
00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:02.240
Would you want to be okay with being okay?
00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:02.720
Right.
00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:07.200
I said, doesn't that connect you to your values, your parenting values?
00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:07.759
Exactly.
00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:10.000
And who you are, what it represents.
00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:12.799
I said, curse away.
00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:13.519
Yeah.
00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:15.120
Ex-husband for a reason.
00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:15.679
Right.
00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:16.480
Yeah, exactly.
00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:17.200
I said, go.
00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:22.639
And then she, you could see, like she all of a sudden just felt the weight lifted from her.
00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:27.360
And she was excited to curse and to and to ventilate her frustration.
00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:28.080
Right.
00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:32.480
And I said, sometimes there are pain and values, and there are values and pain.
00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:34.240
And we need that reminder.
00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:42.399
We need that reminder to because it connects us to who we are on a fundamental, authentic level and what we stand for.
00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:46.480
So we are in this cycle of constantly emotionally avoiding.
00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:48.000
And we need to recognize that.
00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:50.480
I can't tell you, people come into my office all the time.
00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:51.919
I don't want to feel this way.
00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:53.039
Yes.
00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:54.080
You're familiar.
00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:55.360
Yeah.
00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:57.919
I was like, good luck.
00:09:58.080 --> 00:09:58.240
Yeah.
00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:03.519
Because again, would you not would you really, what does that say about you if you actually don't have a feeling about it?
00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:04.000
Right.
00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:05.120
I mean, you're human.
00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:10.159
So well, and also what does that say about who you are and what you represent?
00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:10.879
Right.
00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:11.519
Yeah.
00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:18.960
Even more importantly, so that you could connect the emotions and actually be proud of them, not chastise yourself for having them.
00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:29.519
Because what we know is the more you chastise yourself, the more you resist, it intensifies the feeling and it contributes negatively to your self-confidence.
00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:30.080
Right.
00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:31.120
Absolutely.
00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:32.080
Yeah.
00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:33.200
So yeah.
00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:35.120
And you talk about does he?
00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:36.080
Yes.
00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:39.039
I was going to say you talk about the inner commentator.
00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:48.000
And I guess that's tied to that is it's that internal voice that kind of dictates how we show up in relationships or don't.
00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:59.279
And I guess that has to do with that avoidance, or it's like avoiding whether it's avoiding that positive emotions or the negative emotions, constantly fighting with yourself.
00:10:59.519 --> 00:10:59.919
Yeah.
00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.360
It it goes it holds true for positive as well.
00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:03.759
Yeah.
00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:04.559
By the way.
00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:05.039
Yeah.
00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:05.519
Right.
00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:12.799
So that um intimacy and relationships is so critical to a healthy relationship.
00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:14.320
Yeah, absolutely.
00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:15.039
Right.
00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:26.320
And when we when I talk to, I I had a client here the other day, for example, and you know, she's here because, you know, there's a lot of challenges that are coming up in her marriage.
00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:30.480
You know, she has a huge history, a traumatic history.
00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:37.360
And then she has a she had a huge trauma where she was like brutally raped in her 20s.
00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:40.000
I mean, it was yeah, horrible.
00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:53.840
Um, but you could imagine, all right, you could imagine a lot to carry, and then she's expected to be intimate and like authentic and great in her intimate relationship.
00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:54.559
Really hard.
00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:55.600
Yeah.
00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:07.440
So so it's it's also, I said to her, I said, what would it be like for you to hug your husband for one minute a day?
00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:16.320
And when you actually hug him, you close your eyes and you feel into the hug, you connect thematically with those emotions.
00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:16.879
Right?
00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:19.919
Because when we give a hug, we just you know hug and right.
00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:23.840
But to actually feel that and you had to see the reaction.
00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:26.159
It was so uncomfortable.
00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:29.840
She goes, she said to me, She goes, You're not gonna make me do that, are you?
00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:31.759
She's like, absolutely not.
00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:32.159
Yeah.
00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:34.240
I was like, one step at a time, right?
00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:34.480
Yeah.
00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:38.960
No, I think that that's such a good practice.
00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:39.600
Yeah.
00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:42.960
Just becoming more comfortable to to be more intimate.
00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:47.840
Because whether it's like physical touch or speaking, some people just have that block.
00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:49.679
We we all do.
00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:51.120
Yeah, we actually all do.
00:12:51.279 --> 00:12:51.679
Yeah.
00:12:51.919 --> 00:13:06.320
Um if I say something very deeply emotional, emotionally like the content to somebody, whether it's yeah, I just have an interaction this morning with somebody, a friend, and and she said to me, You're so warm and you're so kind.
00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:09.600
And I say, I said back to her, you're lovable.
00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:11.600
You engender that in me.
00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:13.679
That's so sweet.
00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:16.399
Well, but that's the way I speak because I mean it.
00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:16.960
I I do.
00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:24.240
I do because I I want every person I believe who I interact with and I have a relationship with knows I love them.
00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:24.720
Right.
00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:26.080
And I want them to know that.
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:28.320
I want them to know what I love about them.
00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:30.159
I want them to know how lovable they are.
00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:31.919
Yeah, that's great.
00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:32.639
Yeah.
00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:35.279
And and she she was just so overwhelmed.
00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:36.639
She left me a voice message after.
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:41.200
She's like, I don't even know how she's like, that I loved it, but it made me so uncomfortable at the same time.
00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:42.000
Right.
00:13:42.480 --> 00:14:01.840
That actually brings me to a question that I had about um you talk about legacy and how it's not just about the legacy, an emphasis on legacy after death, but the legacy we leave in our daily interactions.
00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:04.159
So to me, that is a perfect example.
00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:17.120
It's like giving people like saying what you feel while you're here so that they know how how you're they're impacted or your you impact them throughout their their day or their week.
00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:17.679
Yeah.
00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:22.960
The issue with that, unfortunately, this talk speaks to relationships in general.
00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:23.360
Yeah.
00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:26.000
We're not taught how to be relational.
00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:31.279
We're not, we're not, we're not taught how to be intimate.
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:34.799
And when I say intimate, I'm talking about deep emotional connection.
00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:37.519
I'm not talking about works and whatever, right?
00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:43.279
Um, we're not taught about how to express our feelings on a deep emotional level.
00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:44.960
We're not taught any of those things.
00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:51.759
When we even talk about ourselves, you know, in a deep emotional way, so uncomfortable.
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:52.879
It's so uncomfortable.
00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:55.440
I have a friend who's who's applying for graduate school.
00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:59.279
Um, she's a colleague friend, and I I wrote a letter of recommendation for her.
00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:08.639
And she called me and she said, I I have to tell you, like, again, I love what you wrote, but I don't even, I I can't even like metabolize it because it's uncomfortable.
00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:09.200
Yeah.
00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:11.600
And I said, What's uncomfortable for you?
00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:16.879
And she said, she said, it just, yeah, she said, it brings up so much.
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:24.720
Like, I'm scared that I'm not gonna get in and I'm going to disappoint you, and I'm scared that you know, that I can't live live up to those standards.
00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:28.879
And uh like just so much was coming up just by hearing those words about herself.
00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:30.240
Yeah, it's interesting.
00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:46.480
I feel like sometimes even in relationships, when you see such potential in someone and you express that, they get more freaked out and scared and kind of go back into themselves because they have their it, they they can't see it themselves.
00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:54.879
So they end up self-sabotaging in some ways, or you know, not having like a lot of anxiety around that.
00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:58.240
And I could tell you personally, I'll tell you a little personal anecdote.
00:15:58.639 --> 00:15:58.799
Sure.
00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:04.000
I couldn't always accept that myself because I didn't grow up that way.
00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:04.639
Right.
00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:07.440
And um, I'm dating somebody right now.
00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.480
I'm divorced and I'm dating somebody, and this is the first relationship.
00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:16.399
I can honestly say that, and I think I'm in that space, that's why I attracted this kind of person.
00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:16.879
Right.
00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:27.039
But where he is such a verbal, expressive, like deep, intimate person who's very emotionally intelligent.
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:30.799
And and and I have to say, it's like a world of difference.
00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:42.960
Totally, totally world of different, and and I and I am proud of myself because I could actually hear him, I could actually feel into what he says, and I actually believe it.
00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:43.519
Yeah.
00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:45.519
Whoa.
00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:47.039
Life-changing.
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:49.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:55.600
And I'm able to also reciprocate, yeah, and feel comfortable and heard and seen.
00:16:55.840 --> 00:16:58.159
Yeah, and it leads to such deeper connection.
00:16:58.240 --> 00:16:58.480
Absolutely.
00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:01.840
But all of that, all of that is a learned process.
00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:03.919
We're not taught how to be that way.
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:09.359
And for him, it's interesting because of his upbringing and what he went through, he was led there too.
00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:11.599
It wasn't organic for him either.
00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:31.759
Yeah, I think also with social media and everything, kind of makes everything worse because people don't interact as much face to face, and they they communicate a lot over text message or you know, over Instagram, and it's all could get becomes confusing and elusive and impersonal.
00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:37.279
Yeah, and and how many people feel comfortable with all these like emojis and whatever.
00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:37.920
Yeah.
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.440
Just don't actually show your emotions.
00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:42.079
Exactly.
00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:43.279
Or an infographics.
00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:46.000
Like they have all the like, I mean, right?
00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:51.599
But like actually looking in someone's eyes and conveying those words.
00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:56.640
No, it's terrifying, it's like too vulnerable for people to comprehend.
00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:00.559
So uncomfortable, both semantically and emotionally and psychologically.
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:01.759
It feels so uncomfortable.
00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:08.880
Um, so I wanted to actually talk to you a little bit about the ACE method that you wrote about.
00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:11.839
Um, so acceptance is the letter A.
00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:15.920
So many people think acceptance means giving up or settling.
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:20.400
Um, how do you define radical self-acceptance within a partnership?
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:23.279
And why is that the first step to change?
00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:23.920
Yeah.
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:25.359
Great question.
00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:32.720
So, yes, I think that there is a misnomer where people do think that acceptance is accepting mediocrity.
00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:33.839
Right.
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:41.279
And people are fearful of accepting because they feel that that's going to inhibit in some way their motivation.
00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:42.240
Right.
00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:51.039
And in relationships, particularly, when we're talking about, you know, radical acceptance, it's again, what you see is what you get.
00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:52.640
Yeah.
00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:53.279
Right.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:55.839
And we can't will somebody into changing.
00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:57.359
We can as much as we want to.
00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:59.599
And it's there's a lot of judgments.
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.839
They should be this way, they should be behaving this way, they ought to, they must.
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:04.480
Right.
00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:11.359
And that's okay if we have those needs, but we also have to accept that somebody else may not be in that space.
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:12.000
Right.
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:12.640
Absolutely.
00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:15.759
That may not be the best relationship for you, for example, right?
00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:20.799
Um, I mean, or or if you are going to be accepting.
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.039
So accepting is about noticing.
00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:27.599
It's about being open and having full conscious awareness.
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:29.359
That's what acceptance is.
00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:30.000
Right.
00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:38.480
It's not denying, it's not avoiding, it's not deflecting, it's not getting defensive about it's noticing.
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:38.799
Yeah.
00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.559
With full openness and conscious awareness.
00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:43.359
Wow.
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:44.640
That's amazing.
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:46.720
It's pretty rare, I feel like.
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:48.000
Oh, yeah.
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:48.640
It is.
00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:49.279
It is.
00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:49.680
Yeah.
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:51.839
And by the way, it's a portal.
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:52.480
Okay.
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:54.480
So triggers are treasures.
00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:55.279
Right.
00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:58.559
It's a portal to understanding yourself better.
00:19:58.720 --> 00:19:59.119
Yeah.
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:05.519
Understanding your needs and recognizing if, like, again, how you could connect with the person.
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:05.920
Right.
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:12.640
Because it could be a timing issue, even if that person maybe they will get there, but they're not able to in that moment.
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:16.640
So they have to, they're just not going to be the person for you at this time.
00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:17.200
Yeah.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:18.640
And and it's it's interesting.
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:20.799
So, like, again, I'll just talk about my own release chip.
00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:21.119
Yeah.
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:23.599
Comes up.
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.519
But um, you know, we're all imperfect, right?
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.640
And um, I'm kind of type A, as you could probably tell.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:34.480
And and I do, I have very high standards.
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:49.119
And and my past life, I was pretty judgmental, you know, and and got disappointed because people, you know, weren't meeting my standards, and there was judgment about like who they were because they couldn't meet my standards, etc.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:51.279
I've done a lot of personal work.
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:51.920
Yeah.
00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:58.079
But when that comes up for me, right, when I see faultiness, right?
00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:00.000
I don't blame.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:06.160
I say, what is that about me that I can't be accepting of that?
00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:08.720
That's a really good way to look at it.
00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:09.279
Yeah.
00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:09.920
Yeah.
00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:12.000
What is a triggering in me?
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:13.359
Nobody triggers me.
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:14.400
I get triggered.
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:16.000
Yeah, yeah, it's true.
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:17.359
And what is that?
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:19.359
And then I become curious.
00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:19.759
Yeah.
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:22.000
And I learned something about myself.
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:28.880
And I could express myself in a way that's both thoughtful, kind, respectful, and vulnerable.
00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:29.839
Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:40.079
I could say, you know, when you and there was, I mean, there was an example that came up where I felt, you know, he did something that I that I didn't I didn't get.
00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:46.960
I was like, it was so to me, according to my standards, was so off the cuff.
00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:47.279
Yeah.
00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:54.319
And I and and then and I I had to take a step back and say to myself, like, you're being judgmental.
00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:59.839
And like, you know, why, you know, did he do this and find out about it?
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.279
It and and it was more about what it brought up in me.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:03.839
Yeah.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:16.240
My mind spiraled, it was so interesting, into it makes bad judgments and oh my goodness, and like into this whole diatrab of like, you know, and what does that mean to me?
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:17.519
What does that mean to our relationship?
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:19.039
And now that I'm aging, right?
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:26.880
It's like, oh my God, if I'm with this person, and and I literally had this fantasy in my brain, which is again, I just want to show you where our brain goes, right?
00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:27.200
Right.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:34.480
Of like, I'm gonna be an old lady, you know, an older person, and I'm gonna be stuck in the middle of the street, and you know, this person's gonna have to care for me.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:37.200
And he the decisions, yeah.
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:41.279
And he said something the most extreme, yeah.
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:45.680
And he said to me, because I said to him what it evoked in me in a very respectful way.
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:48.079
And I said, This is about me, this has nothing to do with you.
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.519
And he actually took responsibility for his part in it, which was beautiful, right?
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:51.839
Right.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:53.440
That was really helpful for me.
00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:56.480
But um, I said, Do you see where my brain goes?
00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:57.119
Yeah.
00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:05.920
And then what he said to me, which was so beautiful, he said, Michelle, do you also remember regarding all the good decisions that I make?
00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:07.759
Yeah, it's true.
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:09.200
Because we are human.
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:10.480
That's right.
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:12.720
And I was like, You see, this is what I need to hear.
00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:14.319
Like, and I appreciated that.
00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:15.359
I didn't get defensive.
00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:16.240
I didn't get it.
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:18.960
I was like, this is what is helping me to grow.
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:20.240
Right, exactly.
00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:25.200
It's like with every bad decision, there is probably five good ones.
00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:29.519
So it kind of have to outweigh the good with the bad.
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:38.720
Um, and then for compassion, the C, um, on Instagram you've shared about the healing power of writing to your inner child.
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:47.839
Um, how does reparenting ourselves change the way we react when a partner triggers our insecurities, like you were just talking about?
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:48.240
Yeah.
00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:49.519
So it's inevitable.
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:52.960
And if you're not getting triggered, you're not growing.
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:55.519
So I I want to say you gotta be given.
00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:56.079
Yeah.
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:58.240
Because we're we're never finished growing.
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:00.240
That's just the way it is, right?
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:04.079
So we're never taught to be self-compassionate.
00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:05.599
I can't say that enough.
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:11.279
We're taught to be compassionate towards others, never ever taught to be self-compassionate.
00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:12.000
So true.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:12.799
Yeah.
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:18.559
So it is so pivotal to like in our work to learn to be self-compassionate.
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:20.720
And change really comes from that space.
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:27.759
In other words, you know, we used to think that if we chastise somebody and tough love gets somebody motivated for change.
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:29.759
Now we know it's the opposite.
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:30.480
Right.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.759
People change when they feel confident about themselves.
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:34.640
Yeah.
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:35.839
It's so true.
00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:41.599
So nurturing that inner part of you and doing that inner work is so critical.
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:42.640
It's so critical.
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:48.799
You cannot have an open, caring, respectful relationship with another person, right?
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:50.240
Unless you know your stuff.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:51.680
Yeah, absolutely.
00:24:52.079 --> 00:25:01.039
You're gonna be bouncing it off each other, and it's gonna lead to a lot of chaos and disagreement and aggression and other things.
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:01.440
Right.
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:08.240
So it's really important on both people, and that's where that's where trouble comes into relationships, by the way.
00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:09.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:09.759
Right.
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:29.279
When two people are not in the same space, and you know, let's say one person is into kind of a growth process or they're kind of into their right, really learning about themselves, um, and another person is really shut down and and really, really, you know, avoids that becomes very problematic.
00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:29.759
Right.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:30.480
Right.
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:36.559
Cause you're just basically playing a big a game of ping-pong by yourself.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:42.079
It is, and and it becomes it becomes very frustrating, and that's where resentment comes in.
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:42.720
Yeah.
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:49.119
So the most important part of deep relationships is empathy and compassion.
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:59.519
So whether it's your partner feeling distressed, whether they have, you know, and and again, we feel distressed on multiple levels, right?
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:01.920
It could be somatic and a physiological, right?
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.839
It could be emotional, it could be whatever, you know, comes up.
00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:17.599
So if you could have come, even though you may not understand it, and even though you may not necessarily have experienced it, yeah, you could still have compassion.
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:18.799
Absolutely.
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:36.079
It's like an emotional intelligence to you almost can't hate someone if you have enough emotional intelligence because you just you do have that compassion and that empathy for someone regardless, because you know that it comes from somewhere and that's some something they can't control.
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:36.640
Yeah.
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:46.720
A good example of that is I ask, you know, when people tend to be, you know, harsh with themselves and and you know, doubt their soul, you know, their self-worthiness.
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:51.279
And I I say to them, you know, what what's your philosophy about people?
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:56.559
Do you feel innately that people have worse that people, you know, etc.?
00:26:56.880 --> 00:26:58.559
And they'll say, of course.
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:01.200
And I'll say, Oh, that doesn't apply to you.
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:01.920
No.
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:06.319
And I'll look at me at the board, yeah, I guess.
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:09.200
We're our own worst critics.
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:15.759
Like we the the people say the meanest things to themselves that they would never repeat out loud to another human.
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:17.279
And it's really interesting.
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.440
I mean, the brain believes what you tell it too.
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:26.720
So it's the more you say these negative things, the more you believe it, and then it'll transpire into your relationships.
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:27.279
100%.
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:39.119
I just wrote an article for psychology today about self-blame, and it's all about um how um our relationship with our parents, right, could perpetuate that self-blame.
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:41.039
And it speaks to all of that.
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:48.640
That's where you get like people pleasing and you know, all of those kind of great um adaptations that come up while mentally.
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:49.440
It's interesting.
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:49.759
Yeah.
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:50.160
Yeah.
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:55.119
I did have a question about that, but first I just wanted to finish the E, empowerment.
00:27:55.359 --> 00:28:00.559
Um, so you teach about empowerment as a value-based, uh value-based decision making.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:10.960
So, how can a couple move from making decisions based on fear or reactivity and then making them based on the those short shared core values that they actually found in each other?
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:11.680
Yeah.
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.119
We never want to make decisions based on our thoughts and feelings.
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:16.720
Unequivocably.
00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:18.640
They're not accurate.
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:22.319
Yeah, they could be irrational, they could be, yeah, momentary.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:25.839
We we really it has to be based on our values, our core values.
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:27.920
Um, and I teach people how to do that.
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:28.319
Right.
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:33.279
So what's lovely sometimes when I work with couples, it'll is I'll do a values review.
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:38.799
And what's beautiful about that is they see, you know, innately where their values align.
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:45.359
So any kind of decision making that you're making, both individually and as a couple, could come from that space.
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:45.920
Right.
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:46.400
Okay.
00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:56.799
So when there's a disagreement or misunderstanding or whatever the case is, right, and that something's not aligning, what it typically is is a conflict in values.
00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:07.440
In other words, they may have the same array of values, but they're thinking about one particular value more formative in that situation more than another value.
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:08.000
Right.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:08.480
Okay.
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:12.160
So if you're able to understand, and this is deep, right?
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:20.319
If you're able to conceptualize that and frame it that way, you could say, oh, okay, I get.
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:23.680
Like in this situation, not always, right?
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:24.880
Because we go to that place.
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:25.440
Yeah.
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:28.480
That you're seeing this as more important than this.
00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:30.799
And that's why we're not really aligning.
00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:31.359
Right.
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:32.319
That makes sense.
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:32.880
Right.
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:42.160
So let's sit down and talk about and think about, you know, how can we come to some like mutual space where both of our needs could be met?
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:42.720
Right.
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:43.839
That makes a lot of sense.
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:59.359
Because I feel like a lot of people will get in huge fights or have these like toxic breakups or blowout fights or toxic relationships rather, and have breakups based on emotions and feelings that they don't they don't even talk through.
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:02.559
So that's really interesting way to way to think about it.
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:10.640
It really, it's really a roadmap for decision making, especially again in couple relationships, because sometimes there's stuckness, obviously, right?
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:11.200
Yeah.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:15.839
Um, so even when there's decisions, like sometimes it feels like a dead end.
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:20.559
Like, I don't know, if you're disciplining children or whatever, right?
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:25.440
Um yeah, there's so many things that come up where there's this kind of standstill.
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:30.880
And if you frame it that way, it really helps to glide through it so that you're able to really have mutuality.
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:32.720
Yeah, absolutely.
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:44.799
So going back to what you said before, um, kind of intergenerational trauma and you know, even having like emotionally immature parents, it's kind of tied together.
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:46.880
Um, how do we stop?
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:54.880
I guess two-part question, how do we stop passing the baton on from you know, family trauma to our partners or our children?
00:30:55.200 --> 00:31:07.039
And then what's your advice for this like emotional detachment to an emotionally unavailable parent or a mature parent without losing the relationship?
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:09.279
Ooh, that's a big question.
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:09.839
Yeah.
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:15.200
So um okay, so I'm gonna take the first part of it.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:17.279
And if I didn't if I don't get all of it, just let me know.
00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:23.759
But um, so the first part, what I heard you say was about the you know, the context of the couple relationship, right?
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:26.960
And how you don't um spill over.
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:27.839
Yes.
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:30.400
Right from your inner core wounds.
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:30.880
Yeah.
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:35.119
Again, that has to do with a lot of self-awareness, yeah, right.
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:48.319
Yeah, and really understanding what comes up, you know, and when you have that context, the beauty of it is that you could catch yourself and your partner could catch it too.
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:49.119
Right.
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:58.160
So when it's happening, it's not taken personally, it's not taken defensively, it's like, oh, she's feeling unsafe right now.
00:31:58.400 --> 00:31:58.720
Right.
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:06.880
Oh, she's scared of what, you know, and I I say that like to you know, my partner, I say stuff for me comes out of fear.
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:07.440
Yeah.
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:11.680
It looks sometimes like aggression or right, and that could be scary.
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:12.559
Yeah, absolutely.
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.720
But I want you to know underneath that is like such vulnerability and fear.
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:23.920
So if you see that part of me come out, because that's my adaptation that I used to do as a kid, yeah, I said, call me on it.
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:25.680
Because I don't, I don't want to do that.
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:28.640
Like you say to me, what are you fearful of?
00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:32.160
And right away when I hear that, boom.
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:33.759
You'll center back in.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:34.079
Yeah.
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:34.640
Totally.
00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:37.680
I feel like 99% of the time it's fear.
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:39.359
Yeah, it is, it is.
00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:40.319
And I get vulnerable.
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:42.480
I'm like, you know, it's like a little adult.
00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:43.519
And I'm like, oh god.
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:46.880
And then I could I could also hold myself accountable for my baby, right?
00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:47.440
Totally.
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:47.839
Absolutely.
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:48.640
Gosh.
00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:52.640
Yeah, that I did not, that was so not my authentic self.
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:54.079
And I really apologize for that.
00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:56.240
I could really like hone in on that.
00:32:56.400 --> 00:33:04.240
Um, so I think you have to own your stuff, you have to hold yourself accountable, you have to study yourself, you have to, yeah, that's really, you know, critical.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:12.240
Um, and also when you are communicating, you have to communicate not from the wounded part, right?
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:16.000
Right, but from the hurt or the fear or whatever the case is.
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:17.599
And I teach people how to do that.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:18.000
Right.
00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:18.960
So that's a skill.
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:20.160
That really is a skill.
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:24.000
In terms of, you know, emotional detachment from parents.
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:26.880
Um, again, we don't get to choose our parents.
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:29.759
Often it is a splinter in a relationship.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:33.039
But so that that's a whole other thing segment.
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:40.000
But I'm working with somebody that just came up and she went to go visit her mother, you know, and I did actually EMDR with her, which is that machine right back there.
00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:40.400
Yeah.
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:41.759
Um, some deeper work.
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:50.079
And I had her prepare preemptively what it would be like to be in that space with her mom for those days.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:51.680
And it was so amazing.
00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:56.240
She sent to me, she said, I was so grounded and I was so centered until the last day.
00:33:56.480 --> 00:33:56.799
Right.
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:57.279
Yeah.
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:01.519
And something happened and she spilled over, but she said to me, she goes, I'm so appreciative.
00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:05.279
Because it would usually last two weeks that I was distressed.
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:07.680
She said it lasted a couple of hours.
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:08.719
That's great.
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:10.639
And I was like, Yay.
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:11.440
Yeah.
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:16.239
I mean, I feel like if your partner doesn't trigger you the most, your parents will.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:18.159
So it makes a lot of sense.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:18.800
Yes.
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:21.440
And like I said, triggers with treasures, it's a good thing.
00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:22.159
Yeah.
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:22.960
Yeah.
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:33.119
Um, and so I had a question about your um your nonprofit.
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:35.599
So the work you do is very moving.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:45.199
And how has working with people at the end of their lives influenced your perspective on what makes a success a successful relationship in the present?
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:46.000
Yeah.
00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:52.800
So um, my my nonprofit, first of all, is another child.
00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:58.800
Um, and I do want to just say that I am looking to um restructure.
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:04.320
So I am looking for partners and yeah, I really want to do it more on a vast level um nationally.
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:05.840
So I want to put that out there.
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:06.960
Yeah, absolutely.
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:08.239
It's so important.
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:10.719
Um if anybody's interested.
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:13.199
Um yes, I'll put all the information.
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:13.920
Thank you.
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:15.119
I really appreciate it.
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:26.320
So, yes, there is such it's such a gift to speak to people at end of life and to hear from them what what they find important.
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:26.880
Yeah.
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:27.360
Right.
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:32.559
I'm a nurse, so I have worked with people at the end of their life a lot.
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:40.719
And it is so moving and important to be able to be listen to their experiences up until that point.
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:43.280
Because they it comes with a lot of clarity.
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:44.480
Absolutely.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:46.079
And experience, right?
00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:47.599
And also vulnerability.
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:48.400
Absolutely.
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:48.960
Yeah.
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:51.119
So what do people always say?
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:56.719
You know, they say that they spent their time, right, and the priorities in the wrong space.
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:58.880
Like that, that's first of all, right?
00:35:59.039 --> 00:35:59.199
Right.
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:00.400
You can't get the time back.
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:00.960
That's number one.
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:02.239
Working too much.
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:03.199
Yeah.
00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:20.079
And and one thing that sticks out based on, and it it kind of was a theme based on our conversation today, is that they did not communicate in a vulnerable way and express themselves in an authentic, vulnerable way to people they love.
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:21.039
Yeah.
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:22.559
That is huge.
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:24.400
That comes up all the time.
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:24.719
Yeah.
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:25.599
All the time.
00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:27.599
And there's a lot of regret around that.
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:28.639
I can imagine.
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:33.679
And whether it's children, uh, you know, I could I could tell you just one example too for myself.
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:34.559
I have four children.
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:35.280
Oh, wow.
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:35.840
Yeah.
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:39.679
I have three boys and a girl on my 25 to 17.
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:43.039
So I I make my children really uncomfortable.
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:48.159
You have to say because I I want to challenge that part of them.
00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:48.559
Yeah.
00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:53.599
Um, but when I like I'll be sitting with my daughter, right?
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:55.039
And she's a senior in high school.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:59.360
I'll be sitting with her if this happened, like, you know, um, and we'll be having a conversation.
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:13.599
And I stop and I say to her, Cora, I just want to tell you, like, I'm just taking in this moment, and I love that we're sharing and that you're feel like open enough and trusting enough of me to share your feelings.
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:19.199
And I just want to tell you how much I adore you and how much this meet this moment means to me.
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:19.920
Yeah.
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:22.480
She she'd like, Ma, stop it, you know.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:24.239
She gets all like freaked out, you know.
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:24.639
Yeah.
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:28.880
No, but she'll learn that as she gets older, and that will be so beneficial.
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:30.559
She'll expect it.
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:31.440
Yeah.
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:33.840
I want her to expect it.
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:34.719
Yeah, absolutely.
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:38.800
I want her the I want her to expect that from her partner.
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:39.280
Yeah.
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:42.079
She won't settle for anything less after that.
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:42.800
That's right.
00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:48.880
And I want her to have the verbiage and the sophistication to be able to express it to people she loves.
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:49.599
And that's great.
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:50.960
It's okay that it's uncomfortable.
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:52.559
And I say, I know it's uncomfortable.
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:54.320
I know I'm being mom, you know.
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:55.360
You know me.
00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:56.000
Yeah.
00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:59.039
But there's a part of her that loves it, and I know that too.
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:00.400
Absolutely.
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:02.960
It's a really healthy way to parent, too.
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:04.800
So that's very key.
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:15.039
Um, so if you could leave our listeners with one actionable step to ace their relationship starting right now, what would it be?
00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:19.440
To be open to looking at yourself.
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:20.159
Okay.
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:20.880
Yeah.
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:22.000
That's great.
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:25.119
And to be willing to be uncomfortable.
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:25.679
Yeah.
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:28.639
To be willing to be uncomfortable, because it it is uncomfortable.
00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:31.599
It's uncomfortable and it's okay to be uncomfortable.
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:32.079
Yeah.
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:33.920
Like it's so okay.
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:34.559
Yeah.
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:43.920
And I know you do a lot of um like polyvagal theory and ACT and you know, nervous system resets.
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:51.199
So what's a tip you can give to someone who's kind of going through a crisis like right now or a breakup or something like that?
00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:52.719
Is to always check in.
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:53.920
Is to always check in.
00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:03.920
I I love doing like a body scan or a check-in, you know, especially if you're going through something, you know, adversity is like in in the you know, beginning of the day.
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:06.559
And again, I'm I'm a proponent of mindfulness, of course.
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:08.320
So that's huge, you know.
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:18.079
Uh, but to take the time, like even when you wake up in the morning, close your eyes, check in with your body on a scale from zero to five, rate, how am I feeling?
00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:18.480
Yeah.
00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:21.199
What what emotions am I sitting with?
00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:27.280
You know, and what, you know, again, mindset am I going into my day with?
00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:28.079
Right.
00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:29.360
Check in.
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:32.400
That that helps to reset it in a split second.
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:33.280
Yeah.
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:34.639
Excellent advice.
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:36.639
Just being self-aware of how you're feeling.
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:37.760
Yeah, exactly.
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:38.719
And you could do that.
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:49.039
I also recommend a values review at the end of the day, which is I I talk about that in my book, but which values did I lean into and which villa values did I lean out of today?
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:51.440
And which do I want to focus more on tomorrow?
00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:56.400
The reason for that is it's a lot more empowering than say, oh my gosh, I was a horrible mother, you know.
00:39:56.639 --> 00:40:02.159
But like, no, like I didn't lean into my value of parenting today as much as I wanted to, and I'm gonna do it better.
00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:03.440
That's great advice.
00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:04.480
Thank you so much.
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:06.960
Well, thank you for coming on my podcast.
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:10.719
I'd love to have you on again in the future, talk about some other things.
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:13.360
Um, yeah, it was great having you.
00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:14.880
Thank you so much for having me.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:16.320
And I loved your question.
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:16.880
Thank you.
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:27.119
And I'll put all of your information on under the episode, and hopefully, all our listeners can come find you and maybe even be a bit a patient because it sounds like you really help people.
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:29.360
Join our community.
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:36.559
Subscribe now to Head Case because breaking the stigma around mental health, that's something we should do together.
