Tools for Improving Cognitive Vitality with Dr Jeremy Bettle

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Welcome back to Focus Matters.
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Today's going to be a great conversation.
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I'm very excited to be joined by Dr.
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Jeremy Vettel, who I have known now for wow, we didn't actually map this out.
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I'm going to say three or four years.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, at least.
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Probably.
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Um, through my work in through our shared work, my work at Neurotrainer.
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We got introduced to you when you were working at MLSE, I think, in Toronto.
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That's right.
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Yeah, it was with the Maple Leafs.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So we'll talk about that a little bit.
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This conversation's going to be wonderful because we're going to explore our usual theme of focus and attention.
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And now we're going to take it through a wonderful journey of both athletics, which is really your background and love to talk about your experience with like MLS and the Anaheim Ducks and et cetera.
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You've worked with many different athletes at very, very high levels.
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And now your current work through the Vitality Collective, where you continue to work with athletes, but now really broadening the sense of athlete to include executive athletes like myself, if I can humbly put myself in that domain.
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Those of us who work in the sport of building business and staying healthy in our lives.
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So lots to explore.
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Great to have you on the show.
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Thanks so much for having me on, mate.
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My pleasure.
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So let's start, let's start with the past and then we'll work our way into the future.
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So I think we first met, as I said, when ML uh MLSE, and you can give us a little bit of background of what you were doing there, decided to use Neurotrainer and bring it in as a tool for cognitive development.
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So let's jump right in.
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How did you find it?
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What were you doing and what made it interesting?
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So my role with the Toronto Maple Leafs was director of sports science and performance.
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And it was the first role, not only within the Maple Leafs, that oversaw everything that touched the athletes, but it was the first role in the NHL to have the same remit.
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And so what I was doing was first of all building a single department out of a series of siloed entities within a traditional sports club.
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So you typically have medical, you have the acute care, the athletic training guys, you have the strength coaches, and then scouting and data analysis that just started to come in is off to the side with the coaches and front office.
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So it was really to unify under a single vision all of those departments.
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As a part of that, working from these very foundational elements that traditionally exist was to seek out new solutions to problems that we could identify but hadn't been able to address.
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Now, my PhD research was in the cognitive components of agility movements.
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So how do you read and react to a uh to a stimulus?
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So it's an area of real passion.
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And I was at a conference in San Francisco, and um a friend of mine said, Hey, you know, come over here into the exhibitors room, you've got to meet these guys.
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And that's when um I went in and met uh Jeff and and Noah and the that's sorry, um Jamie probably.
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Yeah.
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And um, in the headset, sucked out all your memories and told you to be openly get them back as if you became a customer or stand-in protocol.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So yeah, so that's that was it.
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That was the first experience of it.
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Um going through the initial testing, it took me about 20 minutes to go through the impulse control test.
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I have to restart each time.
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The the lesson there was never let me have a gun.
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My go no go, everybody's getting shot.
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Worth knowing.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Um, and so went back to to uh MLSE and and not only with with the Maple Leafs, because the the parent group owned the Raptors and uh Toronto Football Club, went to the CTO and said, Hey, look, we need to check out this technology centrally for the group rather than just for the leaves.
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But it we need to look at this.
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Was that Hamza?
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Yeah, it was Hamza, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Fantastic.
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So interesting, it's it's a great unification.
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And I know that's been a theme.
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It's a theme in sport now.
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It's a theme in in the work that we do with some of our government partners, trying to break down the silos to look at performance more holistically.
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So what what was the problem that you were trying to solve?
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Because you mentioned earlier that you were trying to find solutions to problem sets that you hadn't been able to solve.
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So when you were looking at here's our physical acumen, here's our cognitive acumen, what was the whole?
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So, really, if we go way back like 2009 is when I did my PhD research, right?
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And and we really discovered during that process that physical attributes are not what separate elite from sub-elite performers, right?
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They they are entry level.
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You have to be fast, fit, powerful enough, but then more isn't better.
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And so there's a threshold of physical competency, and then beyond that, you're getting very marginal.
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If any, if any differentiation is marginal.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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And this isn't all level of sport, correct?
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All level of sport, all different sports.
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And so what we found to be the separator was your cognitive capacity.
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How quick could you read and react to the stimulus that was happening in front of you, formulate the response, and action it?
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So we knew that there was a paradigm that we could train athletes.
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There were slow thinkers, slow mover, right?
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They'd become go off and become strength coaches like me.
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Then there's there's slow thinkers, fast movers.
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So they sort of make up for some of those cognitive abilities by being a very fast mover.
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Then there's the the fast mover, uh, uh, sorry, the the fast thinker, slow mover.
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And so that tends to be like your your very senior veteran athlete who has just been in the game for 20 years.
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They can't move like they did, but they they're still very effective.
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Their instincts and their reflexes are very tuned.
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Right, very highly tuned.
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And then there's your your fast thinker, fast mover, right?
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Think your LeBron's, your Kobe's, your Michael Jordans, who they have both aspects.
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And so we knew that if you could start assessing and bucketing people into those different areas, now we could really tune how we trained the athlete.
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Because in sport, there has been a huge bias to the physical attributes.
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Because that's what we see, and we know how to measure it.
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We know how to train it, we're very good at training it.
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And so that's where we put all of our focus.
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And we haven't viewed cognitive capabilities as something that is trainable.
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And it's always been seen as this thing, well, he's either got it or he's not.
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Yeah, and do you think part of that is because of the invisibility of it?
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So I think this is an interesting discussion.
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Uh, you know, I can train sort of there's and and that goes, it's multidimensional.
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If I go and train, I feel the training.
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I feel the metabolic personally as an athlete.
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I feel the metabolic impact of the training.
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I notice the changes over time, especially if I'm training well.
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Um, somebody said this in and I think a very elegant way that the physical training is very obvious, it's very visual.
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Mental skills and cognitive skills are invisible until they break.
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And then they become incredibly visible.
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They become visible, but you still think it was all by accident.
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Right?
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Like you it it's right.
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We we still don't we we think of it as something that just happens.
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Right?
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Like there there weren't warning signs, though there weren't ways we could have intervened.
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And you know, whether it's mental health or or any of these aspects, we just sort of think about whether people as mentally strong or or not, fast reaction times or not, um, good decision makers or not.
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And so not knowing how to measure some of this stuff, and like you said, it is very untangible.
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How do you capture what made Larry Bird great at basketball?
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Right?
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There's not a lot you could do there, but if you if you really look at it and break it down, it it's vision, right?
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It it's it's anticipation, it's how they scan the court and the individual in front of them, how they can uh have the uh the execution level to perform the skill under the s uh in the same way under the most immense pressure or at the very start of the game when there's no real pressure, or in practice.
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So all of these these things we start to break down and and actually look in a very scientific manner as to what makes these uh cognitive uh capabilities, what are those intangibles that we can put words to them and we can measure them.
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We can turn into tangibles.
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Correct.
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Correct, yeah.
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And and so as you implemented this, and and in this case using NeuroTrainer, what was the athlete response?
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Mixed.
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Because we've talked about it.
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It's hard by design.
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And and many pro-athletes, they haven't struggled at things for a while, right?
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They haven't been bad at stuff for a long time.
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Well, well, it's interesting because because you you brought up some examples and and I'll I'll throw a hypothesis that you can push back on.
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Um, in my experience with advanced athletes, pro or not, you know, there's some incredible amateur athletes, there's some incredible high school athletes.
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So whether the designation is you're getting paid for it or not, there are those that arrive and and and arrive internally and say, my skill set is enough.
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Now I'm here to run my career.
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There are those that arrive and say, I'm never gonna be, I'm never going to be great, or I'm never gonna be perfect, but I'm gonna continue to build on my greatness.
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And so very often when we think of these names, the Kobe's, and we think of these other names, they are athletes who never stop challenging themselves.
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But I think to your earlier point, the system stops challenging them.
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Is that right?
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Yes.
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And and so that's where I say mixed, because I've I've always bucketed athletes in in thirds.
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There was the guys who are scrambling and are just trying to get into the league.
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Right?
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They're your guys that sign a single-year contract, they get a 10-day contract, you know, they're they're the 10th, 12th man, they're really happy once they're at the end of the bench and they can wave a towel and and be in the league.
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Yeah.
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I was I was in the big league for five hours.
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That was right, that was making it.
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And and they work real hard often to get there, and then you don't see them in the weight room again until it's contract time again.
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Then there's the guys who who come into the league and they they sort of know they're good enough to be there, right?
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They're not, they're not going to be fighting for a role.
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They're always gonna sort of have a job, and they're going to be that middle of the roster guy.
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And then we've we've got your top-tier guys who are your Kevin Garnett's, Kobe's, LeBrons.
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Not only do they have the the mindset, the fast think thinker, fast mover, they also have the mindset of, and no one's ever going to beat me out.
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So they are, I was always gonna be here.
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What am I gonna achieve now I'm here?
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Right.
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Uh and so, and you look at those guys, they are tireless in their desire to get better.
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And those were the guys who, when we put them in the headset and it was difficult, wanted to do it every day.
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Right.
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They were like, game on.
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I've been looking for something this hard.
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Right.
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Right.
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The guy who might have a question mark over whether he's on the team or not, we put that on and he's not very good at it.
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Nope.
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I don't want to be seen to be not good at something just in case that's a data point that could be a decision maker.
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So really interesting mix of and and mindset where you've got to look at sort of the psychology of the player and and the safety of the environment to to go in and be challenged.
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But there were those guys that wanted to do it every single day.
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Um, so it was it was really fun with those guys.
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Yeah, very, very interesting.
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And and then the that social and cultural structure immediately starts to butt up against the neuroscience.
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Because we know, to your point, from the neuroscience perspective, yeah, this is gonna be hard.
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As a matter of fact, not only is it gonna be hard, it's deliberately frustrating.
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Because as people have heard me say before, frustration is part of the pathway to neuroplasticity.
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We've got to get you into frustration.
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Huberman talks about this, Dr.
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Wood talks about this.
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There's the appropriate level of frustration to get norepinephrine active, to get acetopoline active.
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And there are certain athletes who are willing to say, yeah, man, I love that.
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And then there are others, whether it's ego or it's, to your point, observational uh vulnerability that that find it harder.
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Interesting.
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Okay.
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No.
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All right.
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So implementation, neurocognitive training at MLSE, then you move on, right?
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As careers do, and and you go to Anaheim to work with the Ducks.
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Yeah.
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So we went to so before that.
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So it was with NBA before MLSC.
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So went with the Brooklyn Nets first.
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Yeah.
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Then came um to MLSC, was there four or five years, then went over to the Ducks, took them all the way through um through COVID.
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That was a wild um time to be like in one of these big sports leagues.
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We were 11 games from the end of the season, and the season starts.
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And they turned the switch off.
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Yeah.
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Totally unprecedented.
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Yeah.
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Totally unprecedented.
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No strategy, no plan whatsoever.
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So within the next week, we had to figure out remote training.
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We had to figure out how do we take 65 players organization-wide from the 18-year-old we just drafted who lives at home with his mom to the captain of the team who lives down the street in a$10 million home.
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Right.
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We had to figure out how do we build a program for them because we don't know how long this is going on either.
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Right, right.
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That's going to scale across all those challenges.
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Exactly.
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So now we've got individualized programs for every athlete within that the organization.
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We we're trying to challenge them to a level that keeps them ready for when seasons start up from junior hockey all the way up through minor leagues and and NHL.
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So the coordination of not only building the programs, but then how are we communicating with them?
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How are we communicating with their trainer?
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Um, how are we communicating all of that back to the front office, to the coaches who all of a sudden have all this time on their hands?
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And if anyone knows coaches, they do not like having a lot of time on their hands.
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They don't they don't do well with idle.
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No.
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No.
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But not they do with athletes, honestly, for the most part.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, this this it's it's interesting you you bring this up.
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So this was when Peloton took off.
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Exactly.
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This is when kettlebells were going for like$200 a kilogram all of a sudden.
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Because you couldn't get them.
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Yeah.
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So the the challenges were interesting.
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They weren't just how do we get training programs out, but there was this mad rush to get training equipment out.
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Well, that's exactly it.
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So we the guy that's living in at home with his mom, he's got a physio ball, the guy that the captain, right, down in his in his home.
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He can either come to the facility, or he's got a hard.
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Yeah, or he's got like everything that he needs right there, right?
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So that that's the individualization of the program is like you've got someone with no equipment and someone with like our practice facility, because we were allowed to have, you know, one or two guys come in at a time.
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It's a private, closed facility.
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No one was checking anyway.
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But we could have people come in and actually do their works.
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Huge challenges.
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And it was actually the first time in a little over a decade that I hadn't been on the road.
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Interesting.
00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:58.000
So there was that component of it as well, just being used to being at home again and Michelle and I actually living together and cooking dinner every night and all these things that that were were great about it.
00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.639
Um, so yeah, very unique challenge.
00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:05.359
You brought up a word that I I want to return to and anchor on readiness.
00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:10.160
So readiness is a is a big theme in the world of neurocognitive training.
00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:17.759
When we think about sort of the domains that we live in, readiness is the term that's used most in the military right now.
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:28.480
We want to be sure that at any time um any unit, any individual has a a cognitive and physical capacity for readiness.
00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:45.200
So, not sticking with the ducks, like going broader here, let's talk a little bit about how did you address readiness in in pro sports, both from the physical as well as from the neurocognitive, because I think part of what we're going to agree upon over and over again is those two are the same.
00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:47.519
You cannot delineate them apart.
00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:50.240
So talk to us about readiness.
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:55.039
Yeah, uh again, in it's sport, it's still seen as this black box.
00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:56.160
Right?
00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:58.720
A lot of the warm-ups are physical, right?
00:17:58.880 --> 00:17:59.599
A lot of things.
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:05.519
Now you're starting to see goalies starting to prefer uh prepare visually, right?
00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:09.680
So a lot of juggling, a lot of like bouncy balls, like bouncing against walls.
00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:11.519
Um, we're starting to see stuff like that.
00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:17.279
So Brad Pitt has this great moment in the Formula One movie, if you've seen it, where I haven't seen it yet.
00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:19.279
He's working two balls off of a wall.
00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:29.279
So it's yeah, for me, it was a really interesting moment because the young, the young driver that he's uh he's partnered with, you know, they're on the same team, but there's some tension between them.
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:34.000
He at one point is using some sort of reaction trainer in his very high-tech gym.
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:36.720
I did I couldn't figure out what it was, or maybe they made it for the show.
00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:37.359
Super simple.
00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:41.519
It almost looked like a sign and says on the wall, but but high-tech.
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:44.319
And then Brad Pitts just working double balls off the wall.
00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:45.839
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:51.119
And then, of course, there's a moment in the movie where the young guy looks at him, he's like, maybe I should be doing the double ball thing.
00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:52.160
Right, right.
00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:57.279
But to me, to to to break the pull a little bit, to me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna delineate that.
00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:59.279
To me, that falls in priming.
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:00.000
Yeah.
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:01.200
Yeah, exactly.
00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.400
So we can do priming first, and then we can go back to readiness.
00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:05.039
Yeah.
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:07.839
Again, one of the other big buckets for us is priming.
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:14.960
How do I get my brain and my neurocognitive systems online and performing in the same way as the physical?
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:15.279
Yeah.
00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:21.119
And I think that's what you were addressing is that in many ways that activation or preactivation is still very physical.
00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:21.759
Yeah.
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:30.240
And so if we go back then to this bigger concept of readiness, I mean, man, there's there's a whole ecosystem around that.
00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:31.039
Right.
00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:33.759
From are they available?
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:34.640
Are they healthy?
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:35.039
Right.
00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:38.960
And so we we have this big monitoring system around injury prevention.
00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.319
In Toronto, we we went three and a half years without having an injury.
00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:43.119
Right.
00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:52.720
So you've got your coach now has his best talent available consistently, which makes for a very good team.
00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:53.839
Right.
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:56.720
So now we can start building momentum as a team.
00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.119
We're not having guys in and out of the lineup.
00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:02.240
So that consistency was huge in terms of readiness.
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:07.440
That allows us to practice together, that allows us to be at morning skate together, everything else we need.
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.160
We look at the wider lens of nutrition.
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:12.960
The importance of nutrition for readiness.
00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:17.759
Are we number one, the human body turns over every cell every two years, right?
00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:25.599
So we're literally building the body, and you know, people often say the body and the brain, like like the brain isn't inside the body.
00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:28.160
Um, we are building those physical, right?
00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:32.400
It's like your external hard drive that you plug in when you need it.
00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:44.720
So we're building those physical structures, but then we're we're also fueling um the physical activity, but we're fueling the the mental, the cognitive activity.
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:50.640
And many people don't realize that the brain actually siphons off about 25% of the calories that you consume.
00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:52.720
It's 2% of your body weight.
00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:53.359
Yeah.
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:54.240
Yeah.
00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:58.960
So huge metabolic demands just in the brain.
00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:05.519
So if we're not appropriately fueled, our cognitive readiness just cannot possibly be there.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:18.079
So we're we're really considering brain-body like physical cognitive as we're we're preparing these athletes from a nutritional standpoint.
00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:22.480
Then we're looking at readiness through the lens of are they ready to play this game?
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:24.319
Are they good enough at hockey?
00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:30.160
Do they know the X's and O's for this specific game, the strategy for this opponent?
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:34.240
Do they individually know their matchup?
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:36.640
Right, Kevin Garnett was great at this.
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:55.680
His structure, he would come in, eat breakfast, he would get his treatment, he would do his lift, he would do his own shooting, he had his own routine, he would watch his own film that he had had uh prepared for him on on his specific opponents, and then the assistant coach would come in and take them through some some scheme stuff.
00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:59.680
And so it it was about when when their coach.
00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:05.759
Called the play, Kevin immediately knew what was coming at him from a courtwide perspective.
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.200
So he could just go and stand.
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:10.319
He didn't have to chase the ball, he could just go stand where his guy was gonna be.
00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:10.799
Right.
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:12.400
So again, fast thinker, right?
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:16.079
Didn't need the fast mover because he could just walk right to the spot.
00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:28.720
Once the guy, once his specific opponent had the ball, he had done so much film that he knew the guy's five go-to moves to try and beat his opponent.
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:32.559
So he'd try his first one, and Kev was very vocal about this too.
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:33.279
Nope.
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:38.559
It he's like, man, you're gonna have to go to your left drop step, you're gonna have to do try your next one, right?
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:39.119
Nope.
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:46.640
And then the guy would kick it out, and Kev would have some more words for him, you know, about you know how well he he tried and all this sort of stuff.
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:51.599
And uh and so that was preparedness.
00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:53.359
That was readiness.
00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:59.519
So there were so many layers to this overall how do we make an athlete ready for the game.
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:08.079
And then then I think that last little bit is in the locker room before the game is getting into what you're talking about, which is the the priming piece now.
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:11.200
Well, some uh maybe all that's priming.
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:11.920
Right.
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:16.000
Um and and it speaks to this consistency.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:30.720
So it it sounds like, and and I and I see this, there's there's sort of systematic approach where we have the team do things, but then again, we come back to this point where the great elite performers figure out their own systems.
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:31.200
Yes.
00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:33.200
They refine their own systems.
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:41.200
So yeah, we generally think, I think you're right, we generally think of cognitive priming as something you do acutely before the activity.
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:45.759
So, and and to your earlier comment, a lot of it's physical.
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:53.680
I'm gonna warm up my body, I'm gonna increase synovial fluid, I'm gonna increase respiration a little bit, I wanna get a little bit of perspiration.
00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:55.920
But what are you doing to activate your visual system?
00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:59.119
What are you doing to activate your decision-making systems, et cetera?
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:02.720
And that's where I think some of the cognitive tools are particularly interesting.
00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:07.359
Um, what about back then, right?
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:08.960
Way back then during COVID.
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:10.480
But were you talking about sleep?
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:12.559
Were you looking at sleep markers?
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:13.599
Absolutely.
00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:15.359
Yeah, sleep was huge.
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:18.240
Um, particularly in in Toronto.
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:20.960
Um, I started in in Brooklyn.
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:28.400
We we brought in Sherry Ma and we brought in uh Fatigue Science to uh to meet with the team and and talk about sleep.
00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:29.920
So we started monitoring sleep.
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:32.000
We were one of the first teams in the NBA to do that.
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:33.119
What were you using?
00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:36.880
Fatigue science bands, they were activography bands.
00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:50.880
Um but they they had this whole algorithm that had been developed with the Department of Defense as well that was like predictive of your circadian rhythms and what they would literally give you a percent of readiness based on your sleep.
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:53.759
Um for better or for worse, right?
00:24:53.839 --> 00:25:01.440
Some guys, if we're on a back to back, guys had been in the league five, six, ten years, that's how they felt after a back-to-back.
00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:03.359
Now I'm telling you, you feel shitty.
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:03.680
Right.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:06.880
Yeah, that's that's a whole nother there's a whole other aspect.
00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:13.359
I mean, obviously, you know, I wear both a whoop and a whoop or an Apple Watch.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:13.599
Yeah.
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:26.400
And um for instance, in I know in the LA Galaxy, they don't mandate these kind of biometric trackers, but what they do mandate is that you're not allowed to look at your data on game day.
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:33.519
Because you don't want to wake up and see that your readiness score is trash, but you actually feel good.
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:39.519
And now you're you're you're having to work against your own data in order to excel.
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:42.480
So there's exactly there is a little bit of a vulnerability there.
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:44.319
Because that's not what it's for.
00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:45.039
Right.
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:45.599
Right?
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:50.960
You can look at it that day and there are some acute things that we can do about it to make you feel better.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:26:02.559
But really, it's for these long-term behavioral changes, like, oh, when we're on a back-to-back and we fly from New York to New Orleans and we play on consecutive nights.
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:06.480
We as a team were not very good at game time.
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:09.200
And so let's not have them go to shoot around.
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:10.400
Let's sleep in.
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:11.680
Next year.
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:12.400
Behaviorally.
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:18.480
We can make yes, we can make systematic changes based on this cohort data.
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:24.799
And really that's more what it's about, reflecting on what were the behaviors that caused the data to look like this.
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:28.000
It's not about the sleep score, it's about what you were doing.
00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:28.400
Right?
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:35.359
If you if you stayed up drinking alcohol all night, then yeah, no shit, your your uh your scores weren't very good.
00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:37.599
So so let's jump around a little bit.
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:41.519
Let's let's leapfrog forward to your current clientele.
00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:42.079
Yeah.
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.480
Because I think the same conversation's really interesting.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:55.039
So your current clientele, well, first of all, tell tell the audience a little bit about the Vitality Collective, and then we'll and then we'll take this concept of readiness and preparedness into your current clients.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:56.480
Yeah.
00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:58.559
So it's been super interesting.
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:05.759
We basically we got to a point after MLS, we uh worked with New York City Football Club and won a championship there.
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:18.319
And then that next offseason, Michelle and I were talking and just decided after 15 plus years of being in full-time travel with these pro organizations, should we just get out and build this for ourselves?
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:24.079
And so all of those systems we previously described, like, well, why don't we just make that a business?
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:25.119
Right.
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:31.359
And and create a new model for healthcare that is about vitality.
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:39.599
Because if you think about what we're trying to do for the athlete is optimize for peak performance every single day.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:46.799
So it's every every stone we can flip over to make the athlete feel better.
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:52.079
So he practices really well, so he plays really well and all the rest of it, and recovers and performs.
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:54.319
Every day is about being optimum.
00:27:54.640 --> 00:28:00.160
But really, when you come out of sport, every day is about like essentially, are you alive?
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:03.920
Okay.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:12.640
Well, when you go to the doctor, like it's not like you go and and how many times have you been and had your your bloods done and and yeah, everything's fine.
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:17.759
And you do that for 10 years, and then the next thing you know, like, oh, you got diabetes.
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:20.000
But just didn't see that coming.
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:29.039
We couldn't have have trapped any of those data points like for the last 10 years and known that was coming and and done something about it sooner.
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:31.920
So that's how we prevented injuries.
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:32.559
Right?
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:41.119
We we monitored the major risk factors and the modifiable risk factors, and we intervened when they started going in the wrong direction.
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:44.079
And lo and behold, injuries went away.
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:49.680
So our premise was well, why can't we do that for the major chronic diseases?
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:51.599
We know what causes them.
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:54.559
So let's monitor that stuff.
00:28:54.880 --> 00:29:02.559
Um and what what the the longevity industry has become largely is biohacking.
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:04.720
Biohacking is the the last 50%.
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:10.960
I would say it's a it's a it's a weird amalgamation of biohacking and consumerism.
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:20.079
Well, because it's it's largely been fueled by venture capital money, which means profit and scalability.
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:34.640
What's scalable is not me standing with you lifting weights and improving your strength, your overall resilience, your your ability to be metabolically active, improving your VO2 max and your cardiovascular health.
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:45.599
What's what's scalable is me selling you a packet of salt for$12, right, and telling you now you need a thousand milligrams of salt four times a day.
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:47.440
Do you sell salt?
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:49.200
No, we do not sell salt.
00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:54.400
If I was a little less scrupulous, I would absolutely be selling salt.
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:04.720
So the the the biohacking piece is largely ineffectual.
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:12.079
Is not going to have any significant impact whatsoever on your quality of life or your longevity.
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:12.799
Right?
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:22.160
We we can't take a supplement or have an injection or get an infusion on IV that is going to meaningfully change the trajectory of Alan.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:27.519
So just a qualifier here, because I agree, but I want to make sure we're saying the same thing.
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.720
Biohacking as a sole source solution.
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:35.519
Well, uh Right, because that's what's being sold as longevity.
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:36.480
Right.
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:41.759
And and so the 1%'s important when you've taken care of the 99%.
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:46.960
Now, what's in the 99% is how strong are you?
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:49.519
How cardiovascular fit are you?
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:51.440
What is your community like?
00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:53.440
Do you have close connection?
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:57.359
Do you it do you live in a neighborhood that has sidewalks?
00:30:57.519 --> 00:30:59.519
Do you have access to healthcare?
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:00.000
Right.
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:12.160
These are things that will make a 400% improvement in your outlook and not a half percent, maybe at some point.
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:13.680
And I think this is working.
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:14.960
I think I feel better.
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:15.519
You know?
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:16.160
Right.
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:19.920
So so again, biohacking, which could mean a lot of different things, right?
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:23.279
At one point, biohacking meant putting MCT oil in your coffee.
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.079
I'm not sure that anyone would still think that's biohacking.
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:28.079
I think they would say that's Tuesday.
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:34.960
Um but also understanding that and in these conversations, we are we're always talking about some sort of bubble.
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:39.440
You know, when you when you step back and you look at social, you think, oh, everybody's biohacking.
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:40.559
But I don't think that's true.
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:44.720
I think it's actually a very small percentage who are taking action.
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:53.279
But to your point, there are a lot of people that are taking supplements or they're they're ingesting something and saying, yeah, I'm biohacking.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:03.039
And so it what I'm hearing, your point being there's a whole lot of foundational work to do before you can get to optimization.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:09.039
Before red light therapy is actually going to make a difference in your health, right?
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:14.960
If we get to the point where red light therapy is your limiting factor, we've done a pretty damn good job with your health overall.
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:20.880
I think that was very clever.
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:26.960
Because I was going to push back because I was going to say actually, I think red light therapy, and and unfortunately I don't have access to one right now.
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:31.920
But my understanding is it can be very effective for improving.
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:38.799
I mean, it it's now showing improvement in things like sleep patterns, depending on why you're not sleeping, um, joint health.
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:47.599
But your point is if that's your limiting factor, you've you've done a lot of work to get to creatine's the same, right?
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:54.000
If creatine is what's keeping you from being an optimal human being, good on you.
00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:56.319
Because you've done a lot of work.
00:32:56.799 --> 00:32:57.279
Wow.
00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:58.079
Seriously.
00:32:58.319 --> 00:32:58.559
Yeah.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:32:58.960
Okay.
00:32:59.119 --> 00:32:59.279
Right.
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:02.799
And and so, and I think that's the the important piece of this.
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:04.319
I take creatine.
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:04.799
All right.
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:07.359
I I take a urolithin A supplement.
00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:09.279
I take a beet supplement.
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:14.079
Um, several beet supplements, actually, just for uh cardiovascular health.
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:16.319
So I do some of these things.
00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:20.559
I I will we have a red light bed at at the gym that I go to.
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:21.839
I will use it.
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:24.640
But I I it's not all I use.
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:29.039
I don't do that and think I'm actually moving the needle, right?
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:35.839
The thing that we emphasize with our clients, first of all, most of them come to us with these really complex rehab cases.
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:49.039
They've been in pain for a long time and have had damage to a joint or a soft tissue area and have had ineffective care and have just been suffering with this for a long time.
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:55.680
The thing we did in sport was create very systematic protocols around very complex rehab cases.
00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:18.000
And so bringing those lessons out of sport, we've been able to take these people and build this physical resilience, which is critical for long-term health, building a reserve of strength and really maximizing your ability to get up off the ground, your ability to get up out of the chair and stay active.
00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:24.000
But more importantly, in terms of connection to your community, can you stay involved in your tennis club?
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:24.719
Right?
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:29.679
How long can we keep you doing the activities that you want to do?
00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:33.920
Because the activities are what are going to be better for your brain health, right?
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:46.000
You having to play tennis and coordinate movement against a reactive stimulus and against an opponent are going to be tremendously powerful for your brain health and your cognitive abilities.
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:49.119
Not to mention your physical reactiveness.
00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:54.239
Like if you think about fall prevention, you don't just stand, you're not standing there and then just fall over.
00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:55.039
Right?
00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:56.800
You will you'll likely trip.
00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:01.519
And so you need to be strong and powerful enough to lift your leg up and get it in front of you.
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:05.519
And then strong enough in your quads to stop that forward momentum.
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:06.719
Deceleration.
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:07.519
Right.
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:09.920
And so that's tennis.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:10.800
Right?
00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:13.679
So if we can train you for tennis so you don't get hurt playing pickleball.
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:17.679
Or knowing I realize you live in Florida now, but let's let's let's modernize here.
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:18.559
It's pickleball.
00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:19.920
Like let's let's be clear.
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:22.320
It's that is correct.
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:23.199
That is correct.
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:26.719
So we've got to stop you getting hurt when you play pickleball, right?
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:29.360
We have to give you the capacity to play pickle.
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:34.079
We don't want you just getting up off the couch and and starting pickle because you'll probably tear your Achilles.
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:39.039
Um, you'll probably like have some some knee pain and stuff because it's very stop start.
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:40.639
It's a quite abrupt.
00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:42.880
So we we train you to be able to do that.
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:46.800
We train you to not get hurt doing that, but then also to perform really well.
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:51.440
So it's fun to do that because that that will ultimately keep you alive.
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:57.119
And then on the other side, we pay a lot of attention to the preventative medicine side.
00:35:57.360 --> 00:35:58.960
So, yes, we're physically active.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:02.880
That's gonna be our biggest protective mechanism against chronic disease.
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:06.480
But things like cancers are gonna come up.
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:07.440
Right.
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:14.719
So if we monitor that stuff regularly, we can catch it early and have more effective interventions.
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:21.599
So, really, it's this we call it vitality collective because we know what we're really good at and we know what we're not good at.
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:33.840
So it's a a comprehensive uh group of people who have overlapping skill sets who can give you a really rounded solution to to your own health and and longevity outlook.
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:35.280
That's great.
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:38.639
Um staying with the pickleball for a moment.
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:41.199
Because you mentioned you mentioned several different points.
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:42.880
It's social, it's physical.
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:45.440
So I recently had uh Dr.
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:48.639
Tommy Wood on the show, and we were talking a lot about brain health.
00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:54.880
And and again, the overlap between physical health and brain health is very obvious and very significant.
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:58.880
So, and and I think you asked me this question and another conversation.
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:01.280
If I really want to improve my focus, what should I do?
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:05.119
It's very similar to the biohacking question.
00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:11.920
It's like, well, should you jump into biohacking to improve your focus, or should you make sure you have all the blocking and tackling done?
00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:19.599
And so when we look at what increases our overall capacity for brain health, you said you you want to have sort of this extra reserve of strength.
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:20.079
Dr.
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:22.239
Wood calls it headroom cognitively.
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:32.800
You want to make sure that you have uh additional space because as we get older, our cognitive capacity will decrease, our physical capacity will decrease.
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:39.199
Uh, even if you're getting injected with the, you know, the bone marrow or whatever.
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:41.599
Uh you can't you can't fight it forever.
00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:52.079
So fun fact um, studies done looking at what different types of activities are physical activities are going to have the most positive impact on brain health.
00:37:52.320 --> 00:38:14.559
And the number one activity uh on the list, it's a little family feud moment, you know, 100 people surveyed, top answers on the board, is actually uh salsa and ballroom dancing for some of the similar reasons, but it has the social component, it has the coordination component, it has the physical activity component, there's deceleration, there's acceleration, there's a little bit of joy in there as well.
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:17.199
Kind of a counterintuitive question.
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:20.159
An executive comes to you and says, Look, Jeremy, I really need to focus.
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:20.639
What should I do?
00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:22.239
You should take up salsa dancing.
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:32.639
Well, and and also if we if we look at the mechanisms of of why exercise has that impact on the brain, it's all those things you listed, but also biochemically.
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:33.599
Right.
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:46.400
If we think about the fact that the brain has those same energy systems that the rest of the body has, it has to constantly produce energy through the mitochondria to coordinate every single movement.
00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:50.880
Like me talking with my hands now, my brain is doing that.
00:38:51.280 --> 00:39:01.840
So it's producing, it's having to produce a huge amount of energy to fire the neurons and coordinate the movement that says, okay, Jeremy's gonna talk with his hands now, right?
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:04.159
Same in in sport.
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:08.880
Standing on one leg like takes a massive amount of brain power.
00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:13.920
So we put a huge challenge on the energy systems, just like for our physical body going for a run.
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:18.880
So we're we're improving the physical energy producing capacity of the brain.
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:28.079
In response to both resistance training and sport, we're producing things like um insulin growth factors, we're we're producing growth hormone, testosterone.
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:31.360
All these factors get released into the blood, right?
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:35.840
And yeah, VEGF, like for for increased um blood vessel proliferation.
00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:39.119
They all have direct physical impacts in the brain also.
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:40.000
Right?
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:45.199
They they pro proliferate uh neurons, they they're protective of the neurons that we've currently got.
00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:51.599
Um, they they help to uh to restore the the energy systems, right?
00:39:51.760 --> 00:40:00.960
Growth uh growth hormone itself, like we'll we'll physically restore these um these factors in the brain, these energy systems when we're asleep.
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:10.159
So there's biochemical reasons that that is so good for the brain outside of of just the the coordination element.
00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:20.480
You think of the work that your brain's doing for you to be that that physically active in such a complex uh manner where you're reacting to a dance partner.
00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:23.679
Or a room filled with dance partners.
00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:24.239
Right.
00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:25.519
Yes.
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:26.800
Interesting.
00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:28.639
Especially if I'm one of the people in that room.
00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:30.000
There's no someone.
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:32.400
I already know you have no impulse control.
00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:35.840
So um we have to we have to put these factors together.
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:48.400
Um so w within the Vitality Collective now, your customer or your client, your patient, is are you still serving athletes predominantly?
00:40:48.559 --> 00:40:53.119
Or are you now serving more executives, stay-at-home folks?
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:55.119
Yes, more executives now.
00:40:55.199 --> 00:41:05.679
So we we call them cognitive athletes because the again, like going back to the fact that the best athletes, physical professional athletes, are cognitive athletes.
00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:16.800
These guys are having to make such important decisions in such high-stakes environments, but it it's not for a 90-minute game or a 60-minute game.
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:22.480
Like we're talking they are on for all day and every day.
00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:30.079
So huge, hugely challenging environment for them uh cognitively.
00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:36.960
And I think that's where this is so interesting to me now is that it's now shifting.
00:41:38.079 --> 00:42:03.599
Yes, we need their physical health, which as we've said is very important for their cognitive health, but really big emphasis on sleep, on nutrition, um, and and discovering new ways to enhance their cognitive abilities that again are not really widely recognized as trainable among this group, and and really not valued a whole lot.
00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:12.480
Like sleep, we we know that people in these, in these types of positions, these executive positions, don't particularly value sleep and rest and recovery.
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:18.320
It's a bit of a badge of honor for them to do a 16-hour day on, you know, consecutive weeks.
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:18.719
Right.
00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:24.400
Like it, it's who can who can still perform under the worst circumstances?
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:31.199
And I think it's really trying to sort of unwind some of that and have them now view themselves as an athlete.
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:40.159
Like, how are you preparing to perform in these environments versus sort of surviving it and still being good enough?
00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:41.760
Well, it's a it's interesting.
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:43.599
I think there's so many different things going on there.
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:57.360
So I recently had a friend who is very driven right now professionally, really working two parallel opportunities, uh, a startup as well as now an active trader.
00:42:57.679 --> 00:43:00.400
And he reached and he's got things going on at home.
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:08.559
And as we know, all of these are cumulative effects on the on the body, cumulative effects on the brain.
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:14.159
And he reached out to me and and I misunderstood his question because he says, I'm getting four hours of sleep at night.
00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:15.360
What can I do?
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:22.000
And so I instinctively started providing guidance on getting to sleep systems, that's right.
00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:23.039
He said, No, no, no.
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:26.159
What I was asking for is I'm not going to change my patterns.
00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:31.920
Just what can I take to overcome the fact that I'm only sleeping four hours of night?
00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:33.760
And I said, nothing.
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:38.559
I said, I just I understand what you're doing.
00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:43.440
And I know you think that this is something you have to do for a while.
00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:50.320
But there is this interesting difference between an athlete.
00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:59.199
I don't know why I suddenly developed an accent, an athlete with an athlete who gets immediate feedback on their performance, right?
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:01.519
That's one of the Things about athleticism.
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:07.920
So I'll use, I'll use myself a moderate athlete, more of a corporate athlete than than a physical athlete.
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:12.559
But you know, I do martial arts and and I'll I'll go and we do these complex stick patterns.
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:18.559
And I know if I've had, if I'm not well recovered and I'm feeling a lot of cognitive dissonance, I have coordination.
00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:20.320
The coordination is just different.
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:22.079
Immediate feedback.
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:26.480
You don't get that immediate feedback when you're in back-to-back Zoom calls.
00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:26.880
Yeah.
00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:34.239
You don't necessarily, it's very hard to perceive your own performance against these softer metrics.
00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:40.960
And what I invited him to think about is that the the research is very, very clear.
00:44:41.119 --> 00:44:46.960
As you become increasingly sleep deprived, you don't notice the deterioration in your performance.
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:49.280
Self-reported, it doesn't show up.
00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:56.320
You say, I'm doing great, but if we put you in a cognitive test, we just watch this decline over time as you lose sleep.
00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:56.639
Right.
00:44:56.960 --> 00:45:04.239
So I imagine that's part of the challenge you face is there is no metric for these executives to say, oh no, this is, I'm fine, Jeremy.
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:06.559
Sleep deprivation isn't hurting me at all.
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:09.039
Yeah, I had the conversation this morning.
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:14.880
One of the guys like, you know, I think I might just be one of those people who only needs uh four hours of sleep.
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:23.840
And I said, Well, you know, statistically, two percent of the world's population have the gene that says I can do really well on four hours of sleep.
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:25.760
So you're not one of them.
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:29.599
That's just wait, let me look at your blood profile.
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:30.079
No.
00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:30.559
Yeah.
00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:30.719
Yeah.
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:32.480
Let's just assume that's not you.
00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:32.880
Yeah.
00:45:33.119 --> 00:45:40.960
Now, what we can do is learn to survive on that amount because we just assume that's how you feel.
00:45:41.119 --> 00:45:48.480
And I think what happens is we condition the body to only have that much sleep, our stress levels and and things like this.
00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:55.599
Now, you aren't aware of it, but I'll tell you who is your family and your team.
00:45:55.760 --> 00:46:04.719
When a CEO or a leader has one night of disrupted sleep, there is an immediate drop in psychological safety for their team.
00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:09.679
Uh immediately everybody retreats to a position of safety.
00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:12.639
Uh, nobody is going to be putting forth that creative idea.
00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:18.079
Creativity drops, creative ideas being shared drops immediately.
00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:24.639
Because what happens is we get an upregulation in the amygdala and a down regulation in the prefrontal cortex.
00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:27.360
So we're we're less patient, we're more crabby.
00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:34.719
And we we've seen this with trauma surgeons who are are on call for, you know, they'll be awake for four days.
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:43.119
We basically have to hardwire their skills that they can do them when they're asleep, and they can do it, but they're absolute jerks while they're doing it.
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:51.840
Well, even then, I think the research is is the evidence is pretty clear that your motor coordination skills are deteriorating despite your levels of practice.
00:46:52.159 --> 00:47:07.840
Um I have a my childhood friend is a trauma surgeon and and runs trauma programs, and and we've talked about what a wonderful world it would be if all surgeons had to wear some sort of sleep badge that measured how rested they were.
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:08.239
Yeah.
00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:13.440
So, right, you go into the hospital and you're coming in for surgery, and I look at your badge and like, you haven't slept in three days.
00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:14.320
Now I'm good.
00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:18.960
I'm just gonna hold, I'm just gonna hold pressure on this and I'm gonna wait for somebody else to come on shift.
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:20.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:31.519
Well, I would ask our surgeons with the teams, like, hey, um, like either like you're not doing surgery on any of our players unless you've had eight hours of sleep, or when are you warmed up?
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:32.880
When are you at your best?
00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:34.079
Yeah.
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:34.719
Right.
00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:40.239
I mean, because all of these professions, so you mentioned something earlier I want to come back to as well.
00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:42.559
We talk about circadian rhythms.
00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:56.880
And in a perfect world, so one of the advantages of working from home, working in your own domain, is you can't start to customize your routines to against your your better awareness of your own patterns.
00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:06.000
So circadian rhythms do help define whether we're morning, you know, we're early morning people or we're L's and we like to stay up later at night.
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:08.960
So I know I'm an early morning person.
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:10.480
I wake up at five o'clock.
00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:11.599
It's actually very weird.
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:15.679
I wake up at five o'clock, I change time zones and I still wake up at five o'clock.
00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:20.639
And I actually don't say this like, hey, good for me, because it's not helpful when you travel.
00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:21.039
Yeah.
00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:23.599
Um, but I just I always wake up at five.
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:27.440
So I know that my peak time is earlier in the day.
00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:36.559
I know there is this very consistent trough in the afternoon, somewhere around two, where I do not want to be doing my best work or my most important work.
00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:38.880
I want to do more rote work.
00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:45.760
Is this something that you incorporate into your work with your corporate athletes?
00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:46.880
Yes.
00:48:47.119 --> 00:48:47.440
Yeah.
00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:56.320
Absolutely trying to identify from both a nutritional and a sleep standpoint when they when they do this work, right?
00:48:56.559 --> 00:48:58.159
In the exact same way, right?
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:01.519
When are the windows that during the day you can take a nap?
00:49:02.239 --> 00:49:02.559
Right.
00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:05.119
Because I know you're going to be going late into the evening.
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:13.280
And so how do we leverage nutrition, sleep, and light in order to optimize for those times of day?
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:20.400
Like, okay, I've got a a shift at the trading desk, you know, I'm going to be be really locked in in the morning for two hours and in the afternoon for two hours.
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:29.119
Okay, well, what are we doing here, right, in the middle of of the day, in order to be ready for for that uh that afternoon shift.
00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:32.239
And is and is napping something that actually gets well received?
00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:34.159
It's getting better.
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:35.679
It's getting better.
00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:44.559
Like, I I think it's difficult because, you know, again, in in a lot of these organizations, like, are you going to be the guy that's going for a nap, like in your office?
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:49.360
Well, there was there was the time when when corporate culture tried, right?
00:49:49.519 --> 00:49:51.920
There were nap rooms being installed.
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:54.719
Yeah and and that did not succeed.
00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:59.280
And I think it'd be interesting to go back and see why that movement failed.
00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:02.719
I think it failed because it had it lacked the context.
00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:06.239
I think it became lazy people go and use the nap room.
00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:09.679
Well, yeah, so it's the prevailing culture one-hour.
00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:10.800
Right.
00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:11.280
Right.
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:21.679
Like it's it's the if we if we understand that we are doing this for peak performance and we view ourselves as athletes, and and I'll I'll give you some insight here.
00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:35.440
You will never speak to anyone who works within a basketball, hockey, football operations part of a pro club from two to four in the afternoon on a game day.
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:40.079
Because every single member of the staff is and and the playing staff are asleep.
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:40.800
Everybody.
00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:42.239
That's nap time.
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:47.280
You do shoot around, you have lunch, you have your nap, you go to the game.
00:50:48.079 --> 00:50:48.320
Right?
00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:50.480
Because we're culturally acceptable.
00:50:50.559 --> 00:50:51.519
It's it's normative.
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:56.159
Yes, and it it's recognized as a performance enhancer.
00:50:56.320 --> 00:50:58.639
I know I we we have to be at our best for the game.
00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:00.639
The coaches have to be cognitively on.
00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:02.159
They gotta have their rest.
00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:15.840
And so sleep is recognized now in sport more and more as a performance enhancer, as a tool as an and as a weapon to really optimize and and gain a competitive advantage.
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:16.239
Right.
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:19.679
So I would sit down with the head coach.
00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:24.239
Um, as soon as the schedule was released, we would plan the entire year.
00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:25.679
When were we going to travel?
00:51:25.760 --> 00:51:30.079
When were we going to practice based on how we were going on our sleep patterns?
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:30.880
Right.
00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:35.280
If we were landing, if we were flying back into town, we push back an hour.
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:35.599
Right.
00:51:35.760 --> 00:51:38.719
If it was game game night, we push back an hour, practice back an hour.
00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:40.320
We give them more sleep opportunity.
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:45.119
Maybe we cancel shoot around on these days, um, or morning skate.
00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:52.000
So we would plan based on our sleep patterns to give us the best opportunity.
00:51:52.719 --> 00:51:58.480
And it gave us, it was really an advantage because we weren't as reactive.
00:51:58.800 --> 00:51:59.119
Right.
00:51:59.360 --> 00:52:03.760
In basketball, it was, you know, we landed at three in the morning and the athletic trainer's walking down.
00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:08.880
The coaches just told him what was the plan was for the next day based on the result.
00:52:09.679 --> 00:52:14.000
And so it's three in the morning, and we find out we got practice at nine.
00:52:14.159 --> 00:52:14.960
Right, right.
00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:18.159
You know, like it's entirely reactive.
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:22.400
When we planned it out, and we never changed it based on wins or losses or anything like that.
00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:31.599
And so, you know, it really allowed us to control for many of these factors, and and that's where I think we can go with with these cognitive athletes.
00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:36.719
The conversations I'm having with with these guys, it you're trying to be the best in the world at this.
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:40.079
And and they you hear the same thing.
00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:41.280
I'll do anything.
00:52:41.440 --> 00:52:42.320
I'll do anything.
00:52:42.639 --> 00:52:45.360
Except when you get will you get 10 hours of sleep?
00:52:45.519 --> 00:52:46.320
Nope.
00:52:46.880 --> 00:52:48.400
Absolutely not, right?
00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:54.239
Like what what what about the uh popular idea of non-sleep deep rest?
00:52:54.320 --> 00:52:56.239
Is this something you try to incorporate?
00:52:57.039 --> 00:53:00.320
I was actually laughing about this this morning, talking of biohacking.
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:03.280
Like, isn't that just like going for a little lie down?
00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:03.760
Right?
00:53:03.920 --> 00:53:08.400
Like yoga nidras and and all these sorts of things.
00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:09.360
Yes, of course.
00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:10.000
Yeah.
00:53:10.239 --> 00:53:15.119
I mean, I think I think from from a science perspective, the answer is yes.
00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:29.119
I think what we're talking about is being able to get into a deeper level of parasympathetic state, but not drifting into deep sleep so that you end up with negative sleep momentum.
00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:31.840
I think, I think that's where they're trying to delineate.
00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:37.920
Like when we say, 'cause even the the work pattern that you described from two to four people are napping.
00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:44.719
In a traditional work environment, traditional life environment, you take a two-hour nap, you're screwing your sleep pattern up.
00:53:44.960 --> 00:53:50.159
But that made sense because your day runs so late because you have sports cycles.
00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:56.400
We're actually trying to push the circadian rhythm late because we're we're really extending it.
00:53:56.639 --> 00:53:57.039
Yeah, right.
00:53:57.440 --> 00:54:00.000
You're custom designing the circadian rhythm.
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:00.400
Yeah.
00:54:00.559 --> 00:54:05.360
Um, I think that that is a really important thing.
00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:07.039
I I I just I find it amusing.
00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:17.199
You know, it's funny they there's a parody account now of like Huberman recommendations, and and um there's there's this couple and they're the they're on a date and the woman's like asleep.
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:18.320
He's like, Are you sleeping?
00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:20.320
She's like, No, I'm non-sleeping.
00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:26.960
Well, there is this, there is this um counter to the hyper optimization movement, right?
00:54:27.199 --> 00:54:34.639
As as is so typical in our culture, we've gone to obsession over hyper optimization.
00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:37.280
Now there's a pushback against it.
00:54:37.519 --> 00:54:40.159
So I think we're gonna land in the middle ground.
00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:41.199
And so I do.
00:54:41.360 --> 00:54:45.599
I I in another conversation we talked about the Indel app for focus.
00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:45.840
Yeah.
00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:46.159
Right.
00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:49.599
So I use the power nap app in Del.
00:54:49.760 --> 00:54:50.000
Yeah.
00:54:50.239 --> 00:54:53.039
And it's 20 or 25 minutes and that's it.
00:54:53.280 --> 00:55:06.800
And typically there's just this moment in that cycle where I feel my, I feel this shift, this cognitive sort of autonomic shift where I'm like, huh, like my body size.
00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:08.880
But I wake up and I'm not tired.
00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:13.039
And if I try to extend that longer, then I do, I do get quite fatigued.
00:55:13.119 --> 00:55:13.280
Yeah.
00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:13.760
Yeah.
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:14.960
And and that's the thing.
00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:21.360
Like that, that's generally if I'm if I take a nap, because I I know like I I need sleep.
00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:24.159
I am not a six-hour sleep person, right?
00:55:24.400 --> 00:55:28.400
So I'll have eight hours and nine hours of sleep and need a nap, right?
00:55:28.480 --> 00:55:31.039
And I I earned that honestly from my mum.
00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:31.760
Right.
00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:40.480
So but mine'll be 20 minutes, and it'll be in an afternoon, it'll be maybe before I go into a long run with clients.
00:55:40.719 --> 00:55:46.159
So that I again, but 20 minutes, like you said, just get into it and and come out.
00:55:46.239 --> 00:55:46.559
Yeah.
00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:53.360
Um and I think that's more what we're talking about with this demographic, is not a two-hour nap.
00:55:53.599 --> 00:55:54.639
It's not a 90-minute nap.
00:55:54.880 --> 00:56:00.480
Because we always say, like, don't let the nap disrupt your main sleep opportunity.
00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:00.960
Right.
00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:01.519
Right.
00:56:01.599 --> 00:56:06.880
And and we've all made that mistake where you know you've gone for a 20-minute lie down and woken up two hours later.
00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:08.320
Yeah.
00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:10.880
Then you're up, you're up until midnight again, right?
00:56:11.599 --> 00:56:12.880
Everything's skewed.
00:56:13.119 --> 00:56:13.360
Yeah.
00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:14.079
Yeah.
00:56:14.480 --> 00:56:29.440
So much to cover, but as as we as we quickly sort of approach the the hour mark here, other other ideas or tools that you currently introduce in the vitality collective around optimization of focus and attention?
00:56:29.599 --> 00:56:43.119
Are there are there other tools in your toolkit that you find are not only helpful, but actually are well received by this population of very high-performing intellectual athletes?
00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:49.920
Yeah, I I think, again, with the caveat that we we've taken care of a lot of the big rocks.
00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:50.480
Yeah.
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:50.800
Right.
00:56:51.280 --> 00:57:04.159
Once we've got people with a good routine, with like um a great sleep routine, a good on-ramp to sleep, where we're not driving along the highway 100 miles an hour and then just like screeching off the the exit ramp.
00:57:04.320 --> 00:57:06.880
We've got sleep really solid.
00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:11.119
I'm starting to look at at layering in like beet supplements.
00:57:11.199 --> 00:57:14.880
So again, we would use them with the athletes to improve um endurance performance.
00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:17.599
What it actually does is increase nitric oxide.
00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:23.039
Um, nitric oxide is a vasodilator, so we actually get increased blood flow to the brain.
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:27.280
What we know is when we're focused, we need more energy for the brain.
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:34.400
And so the two ways I'm looking at this are how do we increase supply and what are we supplying?
00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:37.039
I don't need you sitting there taking in a load more calories.
00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:42.559
So I'm actually really interested in ketones right now and experimenting with ketone edsters.
00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:43.360
Yeah.
00:57:43.599 --> 00:57:45.679
Um, taste disgusting.
00:57:46.239 --> 00:57:55.119
We explored ketone exters in our episode with Don Moxley, and um, it is the most repulsive thing, most repulsive supplement you can ingest.
00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:56.000
Horrifying.
00:57:56.079 --> 00:58:02.880
Like I can take some pretty nasty supplements just because I I know like I might need it, and so I just take it.
00:58:03.039 --> 00:58:03.920
This is brutal.
00:58:04.239 --> 00:58:06.719
No, it's it's it's battery acid in a jar.
00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:09.199
Um but the science is interesting.
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:16.559
So you're you you're recommending for uh energy systems and for focus.
00:58:17.199 --> 00:58:19.599
Because it crosses the blood-brain barrier, right?
00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:32.320
Because it's not dumping a load of glucose into the bloodstream, if we layer that with the beats, and this is just something I'm playing with right now, we increase blood supply and we increase uh some substrate to the brain.
00:58:32.559 --> 00:58:34.960
Um I'm w working with it myself.
00:58:35.039 --> 00:58:38.639
I've got a couple clients working with it and some pretty good results.
00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:42.960
But again, if I'm sleeping four hours, it's not doing anything for me.
00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:47.119
Um is there a ketone Esther that you recommend?
00:58:47.360 --> 00:58:50.880
Because it's it's it's an interesting space.
00:58:51.280 --> 00:58:52.559
It's a very interesting space.
00:58:52.639 --> 00:58:55.920
I I'm trying right now the ketone aid.
00:58:56.800 --> 00:59:00.719
Um the concentrate is horrifying.
00:59:01.599 --> 00:59:06.639
The the dilute the shock is is better.
00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:15.199
Um the um the the human what's the um ketone IQ is the other one.
00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:20.480
I don't know that it's as as effective, but I'll drink it.
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:26.000
So it's way more effective than the one that sits in the cupboard with me, like, oh, I can't do it.
00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:27.119
See, there you go.
00:59:27.199 --> 00:59:28.239
You're biohacking.
00:59:28.400 --> 00:59:34.320
Um beat supplement for it for the nitrous oxide, uh, experimenting with ketone ester.
00:59:34.400 --> 00:59:44.719
Again, if if if ketone esters or the ingestion of ketone ester esters are what's keeping you from your optimal performance, you are at the top of this pyramid.
00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:45.599
100%.
00:59:46.239 --> 00:59:46.400
Yeah.
00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:48.079
Um great.
00:59:48.239 --> 00:59:48.960
Excellent.
00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:53.360
Um other recommendations before we we head into the home stretch here?
00:59:53.679 --> 00:59:56.159
I mean, try neurotrainer for sure for priming.
00:59:58.480 --> 01:00:00.320
Is that wait, is that what you wanted me to say?
01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:02.239
Is that what you No?
01:00:02.320 --> 01:00:06.000
Well, I think I think the whole question of, I mean, we started here.
01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:09.440
Obviously, I I don't make this a neurotrainer platform.
01:00:09.599 --> 01:00:12.639
It's a platform about cognition, focus, and attention.
01:00:12.719 --> 01:00:19.519
I mean, but at the same time, I'm a big fan of exploring tools, neurotrainer being one of them.
01:00:19.679 --> 01:00:29.920
We talked about this earlier, visual training, being able to capture your visual system, being able to use your visual system to invigorate your brain is is important.
01:00:30.079 --> 01:00:45.440
And I think we're looking constantly for if if you've been working for a long time and you go to take a break and you're getting ready to go into another important meeting, like I have one this afternoon, getting onto social media is not is not cognitive priming, right?
01:00:45.679 --> 01:00:49.920
Looking at Instagram of TikTok for 15 minutes is destructive.
01:00:50.159 --> 01:00:51.199
It's not productive.
01:00:51.519 --> 01:01:02.559
Well, and and that's something that that I will say, and and you actually taught me this when you were on on my podcast, is the the power of these exercise snacks.
01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:05.440
You talked about the priming thing.
01:01:05.519 --> 01:01:17.199
I described my routine of getting into focus, which is sit down, close the apps, um put the the endl um music on, really trying to get into that zone.
01:01:17.360 --> 01:01:19.599
But what was missing from that was the priming.
01:01:19.760 --> 01:01:31.119
And so what I've been doing with the the Pomodoro stuff, instead of getting on Instagram for my five-minute break, is going next door, picking up the dumbbells and doing a couple of sets of exercise.
01:01:31.760 --> 01:01:34.800
Um, and that's been incredibly powerful.
01:01:35.039 --> 01:01:38.480
I I've been shocked at the impact that that's had.
01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:44.400
And it's so obvious now that that I'm doing it and after you said it, but it was incredibly powerful.
01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:56.880
So I would certainly say maybe if you can't get a nap, then some sort of high-intensity burst of activity for for three to five minutes would be super powerful for you.
01:01:57.199 --> 01:01:57.599
I agree.
01:01:57.760 --> 01:01:58.159
I agree.
01:01:58.239 --> 01:02:00.639
I think um, well, it's great to take a walk.
01:02:00.800 --> 01:02:08.000
It's we've talked about the benefits of being in nature, the benefits of transitioning into optic flow, seeing the fractals in nature.
01:02:08.159 --> 01:02:19.519
Um, that's very different than I just did a set of kettlebell swings and I've activated my nervous system to the right level of arousal, or now I'm like, okay, I'm ready.
01:02:19.599 --> 01:02:20.639
I can sit down and get it done.
01:02:20.719 --> 01:02:20.960
Yeah.
01:02:21.039 --> 01:02:21.119
Yeah.
01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:21.760
Wonderful.
01:02:21.920 --> 01:02:22.320
Yeah.
01:02:22.559 --> 01:02:24.000
Um, excellent, Jeremy.
01:02:24.159 --> 01:02:24.639
So much fun.
01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:29.039
We could go on forever, but um, I keep on being told, try to keep it to an hour.
01:02:29.199 --> 01:02:29.360
Okay.
01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:34.320
Uh if listeners want to get a hold of you, what's the best way?
01:02:34.639 --> 01:02:40.239
Yeah, the best way, um, our Instagram um at Vitality Collective Performance.
01:02:40.480 --> 01:02:45.760
Um also uh we we have a podcast, uh, the Vitality Collective Podcast.
01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:50.639
We're on YouTube at Vitality Collective uh Performance and LinkedIn, Dr.
01:02:50.800 --> 01:02:51.760
Jeremy Bertel.
01:02:52.239 --> 01:02:52.800
Excellent.
01:02:52.960 --> 01:02:55.199
We'll we'll drop all those into the show notes.
01:02:55.519 --> 01:02:56.880
Well, what a pleasure.
01:02:57.039 --> 01:02:58.880
Thanks for for spending time.
01:02:59.039 --> 01:03:03.840
Um we I'd love to maybe revisit this and and dig a little deeper.
01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:10.719
It'd be fun, it'd be interesting actually to think about maybe resurfacing this with anonymous case studies.
01:03:10.960 --> 01:03:14.480
Uh where we could sit down and ideate together.
01:03:14.639 --> 01:03:24.079
Let's bring bring a case to the to the to the table, if you will, and look at it through the various different filters of what might we do to optimize this person's overall wellness.
01:03:24.239 --> 01:03:24.480
Love that.
01:03:24.800 --> 01:03:26.000
That would be a lot, a lot of fun.
01:03:26.239 --> 01:03:29.360
I actually did that with my own microbiome test recently on an episode.
01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:30.000
Oh, really?
01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:30.960
Oh, excellent.
01:03:31.199 --> 01:03:33.760
Yeah, we're gonna call that episode TMI.
01:03:35.440 --> 01:03:36.639
Fair enough.
01:03:37.519 --> 01:03:38.639
All right, Jeremy.
01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:39.199
Great fun.
01:03:39.519 --> 01:03:40.559
Thank you so much for being here.
01:03:40.800 --> 01:03:42.639
Yes, thanks so much for having me.
01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:43.760
Take care.