WEBVTT
00:00:01.600 --> 00:00:05.839
Hey everybody, welcome back to Everyday Encore Ways to Make a Change.
00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:15.279
I'm your host, Pooja Kotari, and with me today is the guest whom we have been in touch for years, and I'm just so happy that you are here with me today.
00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:18.320
Jay and Sixena, it's so great to have you here.
00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:19.359
Uh, welcome.
00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:20.800
Thank you, Pooja.
00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:22.879
It is wonderful to be here.
00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:31.440
Um, Jenna is a lawyer and organizational strategist with nearly 20 years of experience evaluating legacy structures.
00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:36.640
She focuses on building cultures where belonging and equity are the standard, not an add-on.
00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:48.159
She is an aspiring death doula and community leader in Washington, D.C., dedicated to expanding social equity through more compassionate, human-centered approaches to the end of life journey.
00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:50.079
Tara, amazing.
00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:51.280
You're incredible.
00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:57.439
Uh, is there anything you'd like to add to the short introduction of so much you've accomplished in your life?
00:00:57.840 --> 00:00:59.679
Well, I don't know if it's so much adding.
00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:11.359
I just want to say thank you again for um inviting me and for creating this space for the conversations you have with so many friends and colleagues across the world and the work that you do.
00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:15.840
It's so important, perhaps more important now than ever before.
00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:17.760
So appreciate you.
00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:24.159
So our first question is why equity?
00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:31.200
How did it become an important part of your life, of your career, of your personal life journey?
00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:36.239
So when I think about equity, I think about two main things.
00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:47.920
One is ensuring that each and every individual has what they need to be successful and to thrive and to live their full and best lives.
00:01:48.319 --> 00:02:00.879
I also think about the need to remove system barriers to that prevent folks from having equal access to opportunities, to have a level playing field.
00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:10.639
So to me, it's both about making sure people have what they need to succeed and thrive, and simultaneously dismantling barriers.
00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:26.639
Um, and so for me, it has shown up as a really deep commitment to ensuring that individuals have are seen, are heard, are valued through the entirety of their human experience.
00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:36.479
Uh, in my professional life, as you had said, that has meant working to dismantle structures that have been in place for years.
00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:42.479
So uh, so that we create organizations where belonging and inclusion are centered.
00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:50.000
And in my community work, as you noted, it means the advocating for social equity in a couple different ways.
00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:53.439
So one is through access to arts education.
00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:58.719
I serve on the board of a nonprofit arts um education here in Washington, D.C.
00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:02.719
Access to legal justice and to the legal system.
00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:08.319
That's another board that I'm involved with that ties back to my career as a lawyer.
00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:17.120
And then most recently, it's really been around access to death, doula, and end-of-life care and services.
00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:27.439
And like you said, the idea to me is that equity should really exist from the moment we are born to through through our end-of-life transition.
00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:37.360
Um, it's not, none of these things should be reserved for people within certain zip codes based on where they live or how much money they have.
00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:51.840
These are, especially when it comes to death work, which I'm sure we'll talk about, it really is a fundamental right to have um equity literally from one's first breath to one's last breath.
00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:54.400
Yeah, well how you say that.
00:03:54.800 --> 00:04:01.599
Final and hence for our audience members who may not be acquainted with death to low earth.
00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:03.520
Can you talk to us about what that is?
00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:04.400
Sure.
00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:07.759
So I can't take credit for this um description.
00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:14.400
I just recently had the great privilege of interviewing an author by the name of Darnell Lamont Walker.
00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:16.240
His book is Never Can Say Goodbye.
00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:17.439
Shout out to Darnell.
00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:21.600
This was a week ago, and I love the way he describes it in his book.
00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:28.800
Um, he says, simply put, a death doula is someone who accompanies a person through the dying process.
00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:37.279
We hold space for them, listen to their stories, and help them make choices that honor the way they want to leave their life.
00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:43.040
It's about realizing that in the end, what people want most is to be seen, heard, and loved.
00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:48.720
And so death doula work is really about being present at its core.
00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:50.800
It's about how do we show up?
00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:57.839
How are we present in as someone is making that transition at the end of their lives?
00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:01.519
And some people say end of life doula, some people say death doulas.
00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:04.720
Um, I think we've started to hear more and more about it.
00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:14.240
And I would like to think that's because the entire topic around death and dying is becoming less taboo or stigmatized in our society.
00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:22.079
Um, so really it's about how can we be present with people uh towards the end of their life.
00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:32.079
And we're thinking about uh an end-of-life doula or a death doula.
00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:37.839
What are some of the things for maybe advocacy um that a doula would do?
00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:38.639
Sure.
00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:42.959
So I, you know, most of us who do this work are non-medicalized professionals.
00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:47.680
Obviously, there's an entire healthcare system, right, that is there to take care of folks.
00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:53.839
But most of death doulas that is changing, but many of us are not healthcare professionals by training.
00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:57.120
So there's a whole range of services when we think.
00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:09.519
So as I said, part of it is just about how we show up, being that calm, steady presence in someone's uh life at that very um what can be a beautiful time.
00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:18.319
There's also more in the practical sense, in terms of preparing documentation, um, advanced directives, living will.
00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:25.920
Some of us are lawyers, some of us are not, but we can all serve a role in helping to make sure someone's affairs are in order if that's something that they would want.
00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:28.319
That's a much more practical aspect.
00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:31.439
There's also an element of being there for caregivers.
00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:38.720
So I have pay a patient right now whose mother or whose daughter can't be there all the time.
00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:43.439
And so when she, you know, care, we we often don't think enough about caregivers as well.
00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:48.879
So Adula is there to also provide support to caregivers if that's of interest.
00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:53.839
Um, so there's definitely a human presence being part of it.
00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:56.399
And then there's also the practical side of it.
00:06:57.040 --> 00:07:05.519
There's also the piece which you alluded to, which is ensuring that the person's wishes are heard, seen, respected.
00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:07.839
And I think that's a big part of it as well.
00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:17.839
Making sure that whatever that individual wants in terms of their end-of-life care is respected and known and communicated.
00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:28.480
Yeah, I'm telling uh teary because I'm thinking of um one of my aunties who passed uh last Wednesday.
00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:44.240
Incredible, beautiful woman, and uh and um so this is just springing out so well I'm so sorry for the loss.
00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:45.040
Yeah.
00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:50.319
Just incredible, she touched so many uh people and wasn't added with the rest of the store cast.
00:07:50.800 --> 00:08:01.600
Oh no, that's not this when he's thinking about it and not how well we can, you know, think of her as we have this conversation.
00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:12.079
It is amazing to me how um when we open the door to this conversation, how much of an appetite and a yearning there is for people to be in that space.
00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:16.560
I mean, at this book event, just as an example, it was a beautiful Monday night in DC.
00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:18.639
Folks could have been anywhere.
00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:30.800
And it was a a hacked room of people just really yearning to be in community with other people and think about their own experience with grief and loss and death and dying and all of that.
00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:39.360
So I do think when we open up the door to the conversation, people really share, show up and want to want to engage.
00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:57.759
Yeah, because you know there's there's so much mysteriousness uh around death just as an act of life, and but also as this esoteric concept that you don't only digest, or you digest maybe in parts, and it's yeah.
00:08:58.399 --> 00:08:58.879
For sure.
00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:00.559
I mean, I'm learning all the time.
00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:12.799
I just I took my dad last weekend to um Reflection Park, which is the only multi-faith natural burial ground in Montgomery County, Maryland.
00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:20.159
Um, there's three in the state of Maryland, and I really had no idea what natural burials or green burials are.
00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:27.759
Um, it's you know a very eco-friendly way of um honoring someone at their death.
00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:33.519
I mean, we think of bear, we think of funerals, we think of burials, we think of cremation, we think of sort of the those things.
00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:43.600
But actually, back in the in the olden days, natural barriers were a much more commonly way people were um honored at the end.
00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:51.840
And so it is something that I myself am constantly learning about, uh, which is really interesting.
00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:54.879
Can you educate us about that?
00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:55.919
I had no idea.
00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:00.240
So natural burials are eco-friendly.
00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:09.600
Um essentially, someone's body is um put in a um eco-friendly casket.
00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:11.919
So everything is biodegradable.
00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:15.360
That's one option and buried in the ground.
00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:21.759
Um, another is putting the body in a cloth shroud that is also biodegradable.
00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:25.519
So it's a type of material that is biodegradable.
00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:29.039
And you bury those individuals that way.
00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:31.600
Um, so it there's there are benefits to it.
00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:36.879
Um it might, it's probably not for everyone, but there are benefits to the environment.
00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:47.519
In particular, when we think about how the process is done, it's a very natural, organic, environmentally sustainable and friendly way of um burying someone.
00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:58.799
And so there, yeah, I think there are growing, this is again, I think more and more people are learning about these pieces, but um again, there's just three of them in the state of Maryland.
00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:12.559
And so I just didn't realize the environmental impacts of other forms of burial, whether that's cremation or burying somebody in the more traditional sense in a wooden or some other type of casket.
00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:13.600
So totally.
00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:15.840
Well, now I know that too.
00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:17.759
And so does our audience.
00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:22.320
So and then last night I saw my sister and she sent me a link to composting.
00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:23.840
And I was like, wait, what?
00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:29.039
So I mean, I am always out like you can compost somebody, like what's the difference?
00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:34.399
So the whole world out there yet to be discovered.
00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:35.360
For sure.
00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:43.039
Um, I want to ask you a question about why equity is important in death.
00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:53.600
But before we get to that question, I think we should just remind our audience what equity actually means and the difference between equity and equality.
00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:57.919
I bought this word around equity, and it's like, let's just look at listen.
00:11:58.480 --> 00:11:58.879
Yeah.
00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:03.679
I mean, I think many people use the words equality and equity interchangeably.
00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:10.320
In fact, I think in the past couple years, we've there's been this undue focus on terminology.
00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:16.240
You know, whether it's D-E-N I, D-E-N-I-B, D-E-I-J, J-E-D, D I.
00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:17.919
I mean, it I B E A.
00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:22.000
I mean, we are really getting caught up in the words and the terminology.
00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:27.440
And while I think definitions are important, so we should define the difference between between equality and equity.
00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:34.720
I also don't want us to get caught up in the language so much that we lose sight of what it is we're actually trying to do here.
00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:41.120
So equality is essentially uh making sure everyone has the same thing.
00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:48.320
Um, whereas equity is about making sure people have what they need to be successful, but also dismantling the barriers.
00:12:48.480 --> 00:13:04.399
So the people have probably seen images that show the baseball field and people on different levels of stool so they can see, you know, not everyone should necessarily get the same thing because that might not need that might not be what they need to be successful and thrive.
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:07.919
Yet everyone should have access to a level playing field.
00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:13.679
There shouldn't be barriers in place that precludes somebody from having that access to opportunity.
00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:17.840
Um, and so I think those are the differences between the two words.
00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:18.720
Yeah.
00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:25.600
I mean, you may have a, I don't know if you have, you know, from your vantage point, Pooja, and the work you do, how else you what might what else you might add to that?
00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:26.879
No, perfect.
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:35.120
It's yeah, that uh different or variety of ways that people can succeed in giving the root the giving them what they need.
00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:36.000
Yeah.
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:39.600
Um okay.
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:45.200
So why is equity important in end of life care or death?
00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:46.639
Oh my goodness.
00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:49.519
Um, so there's so many directions to answer this question.
00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:53.039
No, no, no, it's an important question.
00:13:53.279 --> 00:14:03.919
I mean, I I was doing some research around this, and unfortunately, I haven't been able to find research specifically around death doulas in particular.
00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:08.720
But there was a report, and we talked about this at the event, at the book event I was referencing.
00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:12.320
There was a report, and I'll bring this local to meet, which is DC, Washington, D.C.
00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:21.440
There was a report in DC from several years ago that said there was a 21-year gap in life expectancy depending on what neighborhood you live in.
00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:33.120
So depending on what late neighborhood, what your zip code is in Washington, D.C., there's a 21-year gap in life expectancy, which to me is absolutely unacceptable.
00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:48.399
And so when we think about systemic barriers in Washington, D.C., there are black and brown residents and under-resourced wards, and they are much less likely to have access to things like home hospice.
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:54.639
Um, they're more likely to experience their final days in an institutional setting, hospital setting.
00:14:54.879 --> 00:15:12.720
And so when I think about equity and end-of-life care, I think about the reality that everyone should have access to emotional support, to community care, to death duolas, all of which are not accessible right now unless you pay out of pocket.
00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:27.840
So from an advocacy standpoint, this could be dreaming, but it would be amazing to see insurers, health insurance companies start including or covering um death dual or end-of-life services.
00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:30.080
Right now it's entirely out of pocket.
00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:43.200
So there's just a fundamental difference in how someone's end-of-life experience might be based on their racial, ethnic, or any other marginalized factors.
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:59.679
Um, and I ultimately think it's really important that we just like in the workplace or in other settings where we're trying to dismantle systemic barriers, we should be able to do that for people who are looking for um certain types of care at the end of their lives.
00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:09.039
I mean, I really do believe that every individual should have the ability to die and end their life with dignity in a way they wish.
00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:13.759
And that's just not happening right now because of all the barriers that are in place.
00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:16.559
Yeah.
00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:59.039
I mean, the more you think about it, uh, we are so focused on non-disabled, most productive, most profitable groups in our society, and then we focus on getting everything from them, and we're we really devalue the I mean when you started from the top when you started, you know, equity is from birth to death, and we really devalue and friends, children.
00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:13.920
Uh we see them as if you know if you're not a productive part of our capitalist society, like, okay, you know, life care is just you know, and if you're uh disabled, uh you know, as we know, how you get treated in this society.
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:16.240
And then of course, and life care.
00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:16.960
Yeah.
00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:20.319
So it's the entire human cycle of life, right?
00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:23.039
I mean, it's at every step along the way.
00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:28.640
Um, and I even think about, you know, what happens when you don't have uh when you don't speak the language.
00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:44.559
You know, I've seen firsthand friends and family members, their experiences with the healthcare system, and I come from a family of healthcare professionals, is vastly different depending on if you have some, if you're able to advocate for yourself or you have somebody who's advocating for you.
00:17:44.880 --> 00:18:00.079
So I think of all the people who aren't able to speak the language, who might be alone navigating the healthcare system alone, um, all of those issues just make the experience vastly different, depending on on those factors.
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:05.279
But yes, like you said, I mean, beginning from birth, all throughout, we see it in the education system.
00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:08.319
I mean, we see it in the in mass incarceration.
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:31.119
I mean, every step along the way, there are barriers in place that make it harder for certain individuals, marginalized, black and brown, LGBTQ, people with disabilities, um, make their experience much different than than if you um that if you don't and if you don't face those barriers.
00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:32.319
Yeah.
00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:38.000
And there's so much um fear surrounded uh surrounding it.
00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:46.640
You know, getting I'm just thinking of, you know, when I for example, when I gave birth, I had a dual who kind of explained everything.
00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:48.400
But there was like time.
00:18:49.119 --> 00:19:01.039
You know, like clinging You know, even when I started my contractions, there's still for me, there was still time to be like, okay, so this is the next step.
00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:07.680
And like that's a massive amount of pain, but like someone's explaining to me what to expect next and what I the next step should be.
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:20.079
And then wondering uh death doula's um mandate is what uh you know, you have your patient there and and how it walks them through about what to expect next.
00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:21.359
Yeah, well, that's so interesting.
00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:23.039
That's interesting you mentioned that.
00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:32.160
First of all, some insurers, I don't know if this was the case with you or not, but there are insurance birth insurers that are who are starting to cover birth doulas, which I think is amazing.
00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:37.519
And hopefully we'll see that same transition or that'll be adapted to death doulas as well.
00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:54.960
But it's interesting you say that because I do have a patient now and her daughter, the same one I'm talking about, and her daughter, um, it's it's just understanding what the experience of death is like, de, like you said, demystifying it and taking away some of the fear around it.
00:19:55.119 --> 00:20:07.839
I think we all have this image of our minds of what death is like, and it can actually be a very peaceful, beautiful, calm experience, but that's not what we normally see or hear.
00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:15.359
So in this instance, the other night, she was telling me she heard her mom what she thought was a death rattle.
00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:23.440
And a death rattle is a certain sound that someone may make oftentimes as death is approaching.
00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:31.359
They're not in pain, it's not uncomfortable, but it is a sound that can be concerning if you're not familiar with it.
00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:33.440
And so we talked about that.
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:37.279
It turns out her mother is still here, not, you know, but she is on hospice.
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:39.680
So, you know, her death is coming.
00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:42.720
Um, but we talked about what does a death rattle look like?
00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:43.839
What does it sound like?
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:45.440
What are some signs?
00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:46.640
Is it okay?
00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:50.960
Like if if she's doing X, Y, or Z, does that mean it couldn't be imminent?
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:53.440
Of course, everyone's death is different.
00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:58.559
And it might it's not, you know, cookie cutter or buy the book, but these are things to look out for.
00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:06.960
And it it does demystify it and it does bring a sense of calm that, okay, now I know what this is, and I know she's not in pain.
00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:16.319
And I think there's so that is absolutely uh it's it's similar to what you're saying in terms of helping an individual prepare for what's to come.
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:18.160
Yeah.
00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:30.000
I know we really don't think about all of these minutiae of what people are experiencing, and um you know, Dr.
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:33.920
Google I think we have to take care of Right.
00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:34.400
Yes.
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:35.200
No, Dr.
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:40.160
Google can can definitely add to angst and anxiety, I think.
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:42.000
Yeah.
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:55.279
Um Is there something about uh and end of life doula, outright death doula that you want our audience to better understand or be more curious about?
00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:58.319
Uh, or a question that they could ask.
00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:01.759
Um, like We've got a death jeweler before.
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:03.599
Is it the person who's passing?
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:05.519
Is it only for the family members?
00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:08.640
What did a family member want somebody for them?
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:15.519
Uh, but but a person who's actually going through it doesn't want that.
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:19.440
What are some things that are special?
00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:23.759
Um That's a great question.
00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:33.680
Um, and I would say there are first and foremost, there are a lot of different resources available for people who are wanting to learn more about Death Doula.
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:45.279
There are national associations like I know the, which now I'm going to miss the spelling out, but it is I-N-E-L-D-A.
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:54.480
And there are others where there are a wealth of resources just about Death Doula, end-of-life care, what the options are, what the services are, what's available.
00:22:54.960 --> 00:23:01.839
Um I would say that it really depends.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:06.480
I hate this answer, and I am a lawyer, so I'm going to give it a very standard lawyer answer.
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:11.200
I think it really depends on what an individual or their family member is looking for.
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:18.720
Um, I think first and for it's part of it is just educating yourself that there is this survey service available.
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:22.480
It's become, it's gotten a lot more attention in mainstream media lately.
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:29.440
The show The Pit had an episode with a death doula who came, um, who was there, and people were talking about that.
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:36.160
Nicole Kidman has talked about her um training to be a death doula after her mother passed.
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:42.240
So for some reason, it's it's I don't think it's, I think people are maybe awakening to this idea.
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:43.519
I don't think it's a trend.
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:44.640
I hope it's not a trend.
00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:56.960
I think it's more people are awakening to this reality that the one thing we all have in common is that we will all die in a world that is so polarized and that is so divided right now.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:05.680
It is the one universal thing that brings us all together, irrespective of what we look like, where we're from, what our zip code is, what our income is, all of that.
00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:18.319
Um, so I think part of it is just learning that this is a resource that is out there for people who are um, they, you know, it's not even necessarily if you are very, very ill.
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:22.000
People can get death doulas to start helping with the planning.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:33.759
I mean, for myself, I was I when I did my training, I do love myself in terms of what are the documents I need to have, what do they have, do I have them in place?
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:39.839
The will, the directives, the DNRs, like, oh, what it, whatever, even just what are my wishes?
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:41.599
I mean, what was it that I really want?
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:45.759
After I saw this natural burial site, I was telling my sister, I'm like, I'm not even sure what I want.
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.759
Like I thought I wanted, but I'm not even sure if I know.
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:57.279
So I think part of it is even if you're not, you know, at it, it the person could simply be there to help you get things in order.
00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:04.559
Um, even if you're not, you know, hopefully you don't have some some incurable or or horrible health situation.
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:14.160
And then, of course, yes, for an a family member who might be on hospice or palliative care, um, or individual rather, and then caregivers.
00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:20.240
And there are sensitive issues and dynamics that will often come up, especially when family is involved.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.759
Um, maybe that that could even look like a difference of opinion.
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:28.240
You know, the individual may want certain things, the family members might disagree.
00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:30.480
That can be a tense, difficult situation.
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:37.839
I think it's really important for the doula to know in that point, sort of what is their role and making sure that there's transparent communication.
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:41.359
But those can definitely be harder situations to navigate.
00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.759
At a starting point, though, I think just knowing that this support is there.
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:56.720
And again, going back to the accessibility piece, you know, hopefully there are ways in which more and more people will have access to this if this is something that they want or need.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:05.119
The website uh that you mentioned is INLDA, the International End of Life Doom Association.
00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:08.799
We'll put it in our show notes as I-n-el-da-da org.
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:15.920
And um, just being on it just now, it's there's so much information here that's very accessible.
00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:17.920
Yeah, there's a lot of services.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:23.200
There's a lot I went through a program called Going with Grace by Alua Arthur.
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:27.759
She is the uh the the founder of that organization.
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:32.079
There are folks like Darnell Lamont Walker, who wrote his book recently.
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:34.960
There are communities, even in Washington, D.C.
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:37.519
There's a group called the DC Death Collective.
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:43.440
So, I mean, there's a an abundance of information support community that's out there.
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.839
Part of it is just knowing that it exists and how to find it.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:56.400
Okay, we'll link to uh Donnell Lamont Walker's book and also the website goingwithgrace.com.
00:26:57.039 --> 00:26:58.240
Um, lots of information.
00:26:58.559 --> 00:26:59.599
There's so much out there.
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:01.039
There's a lot of research.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:07.920
It's one of those things that I, for me, even I didn't realize uh that this was an entire space, right?
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:09.920
Then death work is an entire space.
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:17.599
And I actually think that this is one thing I would also add when you when you asked me that question that I hadn't said, and Darnell talks about this a lot.
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:21.440
Um for me, it was not just about death and dying.
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:25.119
And this is what I really tell people when they say, doesn't it make you sad?
00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:26.640
And you know, all the bings.
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:31.039
To me, it's given me a laser focus on how to live.
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:35.920
So it's not just being an end of death, an end of death or a death doula.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:52.640
I think of it as being a life doula that I am learning how to live more intentionally and better and show up every day so that when my turn is up, I will have said I lived a full life.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:55.359
So it's not just about death and dying.
00:27:55.519 --> 00:27:58.079
It's about how are we living?
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:00.720
And that's why I do this.
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:09.279
Oh we can't part two is gonna be necessary.
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:13.440
Darnell says, he I wish I wrote it down somewhere.
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:15.119
I we talked about it when I met with him.
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:19.279
He says it's um he what did he say?
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:25.920
He said it's like being a life jewel and he has a beautiful way of talking about it, and I that's exactly why I do it.
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:33.839
It's not just about how we leave the world, it's how are we showing up every day to live better.
00:28:47.279 --> 00:29:12.480
So actually let's connect that because um in thinking about how we are showing up what can ardent listeners do to start incorporating um uh issues with equity or thinking about um equity in their everyday life.
00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:13.039
Yeah.
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:14.160
You know what's funny?
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:17.599
I think people really want to know like what is it that I can do?
00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:22.640
You know, we talk about inclusion, we talk about these issues, we all go back to our day-to-day lives.
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:30.720
One of the things I've learned, especially working in organizations and professional services firms, is that it's amazing and important to have the conversation.
00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:40.079
And it's also really important to give people concrete tips or takeaways or the things they can do once they leave the conversation.
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:42.160
Um, so there are some simple things.
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:46.319
I mean, it's this is a muscle that you strengthen or you practice, which is great.
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:47.440
It's not a destination.
00:29:47.599 --> 00:30:00.960
We're not going to have solved all the problems, but there are things we can do in our day-to-day lives to help shape the space that we are in, the to help shape the space um that we create for others.
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:28.000
So, I mean, it's simple things, it's being curious, um, asking questions, you know, probing, not in a way that's awkward or you know, uh inappropriate, but I have found in all of the work that I do that one of the greatest strengths that I have is being curious and just coming from a place of genuine interest in another human being.
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:30.240
And there is so much you can learn.
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:45.680
There is so much you can be, there are so many barriers you can break down when you just keep an open mind and um and especially those who aren't necessarily super vocal, you know, pay attention to who's speaking, who's leaning in, who's not speaking in up as much.
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.960
A lot of times the quieter people have a lot to say.
00:30:49.359 --> 00:31:04.160
Um, thinking about how we spend our time and our money, you know, are we supporting locally, you know, local women-owned, or it's Pride Month, LGBQ plus owned, or, you know, what are the organizations that we are volunteering for or with?
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:06.319
That's something that I mentioned I do.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:09.039
Um what are we reading?
00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:10.319
What are we consuming?
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:12.160
What are we listening to?
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:14.559
Are we open to other perspectives?
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:20.480
I feel like that's even been hard for me to really be open to other perspectives, but it's important.
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:26.720
Um, how are we diversifying who we surround ourselves by and what we are consuming?
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:38.400
Um, in the death work space, I think there's some really important, um, a really important need to recognize how different cultures and communities have traditions around death and mourning.
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:53.440
So it just even at this park that I was telling you about, the natural burial ground, they have a separate space for Jewish individuals and Muslim um families to preserve their cultural traditions around um burial.
00:31:53.599 --> 00:32:04.400
And so, how are we respecting and learning about cultures and um death and mourning and how that shows up in different in different parts of the world?
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:17.359
So I actually think there's some really simple, concrete things we can do in our day-to-day life that will allow us to show up better, but that will also positively impact those around us.
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:24.079
And if we each do that individually, the ripple effect that that can then have is huge.
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:30.640
Sometimes I have to think about it from that perspective because otherwise it can get really overwhelming.
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:35.200
Um, and you know, it can be like, how is I really making a difference?
00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:40.160
Or, you know, are we moving forward or are we just, you know, continuously going back?
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:44.880
So I think sometimes it's the micro actions, thinking about your own sphere of influence.
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:48.880
And ultimately, if each of us do that, we can change the world.
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:50.640
Absolutely.
00:32:50.880 --> 00:33:05.279
You know, I I tell I also tell people when we're talking about like being luxurious, that there's questions that I actually work really well for my kids are uh what do you want to tell me about your day?
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:07.119
And tell me more.
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:08.799
Love it.
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:11.200
And they fill in the blank.
00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:13.759
And they tell me so much more than how was your day at screen?
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:14.799
Right.
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:18.480
We we think we're gonna get somewhere by saying, Hey, how was your day?
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:20.880
Like it was good, right?
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:22.000
You know, but it's simple things.
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:24.640
How like what how are we asking questions?
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:28.720
Nuanced little tweaks like that can open up a world of conversation.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:30.799
Yes, yes.
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:36.079
So I am you know when you mention look at what you're consuming, what are you reading?
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:40.400
What podcast you're listening to, and what kind of echo chamber do you prefer to be in?
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:42.400
Because you know, just polarized.
00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:44.319
We do prefer, I mean, that's okay.
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:48.240
We prefer an echo chamber, but I think what's really important is to question.
00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:48.799
Yeah.
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:51.839
Are we questioning even the things that we agree with?
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:52.480
Yeah.
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:53.759
Can we still question us?
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:54.319
Yes.
00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:56.720
And I think that's so important for our kids too.
00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:01.519
I mean, these are all skills that they'll need to have as they navigate the world going forward.
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:04.400
And I wish I had a I mean, I'm still building that muscle.
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:11.840
I'm not gonna uh say that I, you know, have easy conversations with people who have very, very different views than me.
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:18.719
But I think it's a muscle we can strengthen, but we have to expose ourselves to those different perspectives in order to do so.
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:22.960
Yeah, and that that can feel very daunting.
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:23.760
Yes.
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:35.679
Um And then, of course, you mentioned being intentional with how we spend our money and um and looking at what different communities do and the traditions that they follow.
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:36.639
Yeah.
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:45.199
And absolutely, and I think uh one of the things that I think about every day is what privilege do I have?
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:48.480
And how can I use that to help others?
00:34:48.719 --> 00:34:53.760
I mean, there's certainly parts of my we didn't get into this, this is a whole other conversation of our identity.
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:56.239
Some of it's marginalized, some of it's privileged.
00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:08.559
How can I use the privilege that I have, whether that's, you know, being a lawyer or, you know, what whatever it might be, to help bring others up, lift other voices.
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:19.679
Um, and so to the extent that, because I'm very, very mindful that there are many folks who don't have um some of the things that I have access to.
00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:23.440
So how can I use that in support of others and in the community?
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:25.440
Yeah, absolutely.
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:29.840
Okay.
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:31.920
How can people find you?
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:38.639
If they're interested in your work as a death duel, how can they get to know you and uh continue this composition?
00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:42.639
Well, right now you can find me on social media.
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:47.360
I'm on Instagram uh at being.jia.
00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:51.280
There is another person with my name in New York that is not me.
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:57.119
That's another story because I get mistaken for her all the time, and she's doing her own amazing thing out there.
00:35:57.280 --> 00:35:59.440
I'm also on LinkedIn as well.
00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:02.800
So right now, those are the two best ways to find me and connect with me.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:08.000
And I'm more than happy to talk and engage um with anyone who is interested.
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:10.159
Yeah, incredible.
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:13.280
On Instagram at beanjaya.
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:15.199
It's not Jay's.
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:16.239
Yes, exactly.
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:17.119
Beam.j.
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:17.840
Yes, I both.
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:18.880
Thank you, Pooja.
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:23.119
Um, it's really funny because both of us have extremely common names.
00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:29.440
And I'm sure we're mistaken for having very uh unique names, except your names were so common.
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:31.280
I tell people that all the time.
00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:34.400
They're like, You're the first Jenga government, and I'm like, believe me.
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:36.800
Jay, and I'm sure Pooja too, right?
00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:42.880
I mean, in India these names are your grands are like the Susan of the Exactly.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:44.320
I'm real person.
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:48.480
And I'm sure yours gets mispronounced all the time as well.
00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:49.199
Yes.
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:51.519
Yes, indeed.
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:54.239
You know, I have my kids call me by my first name.
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:57.840
They call me Mama, but they have said my name so many times at home.
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:02.800
Because I never want my kids to feel like they can't pronounce my name, and I never want them to mispronounce it.
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:08.079
So sometimes my second one, uh how is Puja mispronounce?
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:09.760
I know.
00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:12.960
I could see your last name.
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:19.920
I'm not quite sure I understand how you mispronounce Puja, but Yeah, sometimes people put like a Z in there, like Pooja.
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:24.960
Okay sometimes or a light, any and then there's like a whole variety of things.
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:30.480
But my younger one, youngest one, will say, Mama, mama, mama, and then we'll be answering, right?
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:31.760
And finally, Pooja.
00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:36.320
Well, we could talk about that.
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:42.400
I mean, there's a million things we could talk about, but the importance of getting someone's name right is a whole other thing as well.
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:52.239
I firmly believe that we should try our very best, and we are all human and we make mistakes, to pronounce someone's name the way they wish to have it said.
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:53.199
Simply.
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:56.719
And can we just let a non-corollarity?
00:37:57.039 --> 00:38:03.519
Yeah, when you mess up somebody's name, just say oops, and try to get it right the next time, but please don't say you butchered it.
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:06.880
It's like violent minds about my name.
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:09.519
And it's like, do we not use that word?
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:14.719
Someone once told me, someone once told me, I said, Can I pick your brain sometime?
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:19.199
And she's like, Can you not tell me that you want to pick my brain?
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:24.800
And ever since then, whenever I reach out to people, I'm like, I cannot say pick your brain.
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:26.159
Never thought about it that way.
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:29.440
But I'm like, yes, why anyone want to pick anyone's brain?
00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:35.280
But your name, pick your brain.
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:37.760
Let's be softer words, you know.
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:40.159
Yeah, nonviolent communication.
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:44.320
Jim, it's wonderful to have you here.
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:45.920
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:49.199
You have enlightened our audience, you've enlightened me.
00:38:49.440 --> 00:39:05.760
Um thinking a lot about Ray Conte throughout this whole episode, and you know, I just value all of your work and your thoughtfulness about you know how you want to live your life and how you want to give to your community.
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:09.280
It's it's aspirational and inspirational.
00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:11.039
Well, thank you, Pooja.
00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:12.159
It has been wonderful.
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:14.559
I really appreciate all that you do.
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:18.960
And if I can support you in any way, I'm in your corner.
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:20.559
Thank you.
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:25.199
And for all of you, we can't wait to see you next week on Everyday Equity.
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:26.079
Take care.
00:00:01.600 --> 00:00:05.839
Hey everybody, welcome back to Everyday Encore Ways to Make a Change.
00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:15.279
I'm your host, Pooja Kotari, and with me today is the guest whom we have been in touch for years, and I'm just so happy that you are here with me today.
00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:18.320
Jay and Sixena, it's so great to have you here.
00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:19.359
Uh, welcome.
00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:20.800
Thank you, Pooja.
00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:22.879
It is wonderful to be here.
00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:31.440
Um, Jenna is a lawyer and organizational strategist with nearly 20 years of experience evaluating legacy structures.
00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:36.640
She focuses on building cultures where belonging and equity are the standard, not an add-on.
00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:48.159
She is an aspiring death doula and community leader in Washington, D.C., dedicated to expanding social equity through more compassionate, human-centered approaches to the end of life journey.
00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:50.079
Tara, amazing.
00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:51.280
You're incredible.
00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:57.439
Uh, is there anything you'd like to add to the short introduction of so much you've accomplished in your life?
00:00:57.840 --> 00:00:59.679
Well, I don't know if it's so much adding.
00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:11.359
I just want to say thank you again for um inviting me and for creating this space for the conversations you have with so many friends and colleagues across the world and the work that you do.
00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:15.840
It's so important, perhaps more important now than ever before.
00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:17.760
So appreciate you.
00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:24.159
So our first question is why equity?
00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:31.200
How did it become an important part of your life, of your career, of your personal life journey?
00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:36.239
So when I think about equity, I think about two main things.
00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:47.920
One is ensuring that each and every individual has what they need to be successful and to thrive and to live their full and best lives.
00:01:48.319 --> 00:02:00.879
I also think about the need to remove system barriers to that prevent folks from having equal access to opportunities, to have a level playing field.
00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:10.639
So to me, it's both about making sure people have what they need to succeed and thrive, and simultaneously dismantling barriers.
00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:26.639
Um, and so for me, it has shown up as a really deep commitment to ensuring that individuals have are seen, are heard, are valued through the entirety of their human experience.
00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:36.479
Uh, in my professional life, as you had said, that has meant working to dismantle structures that have been in place for years.
00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:42.479
So uh, so that we create organizations where belonging and inclusion are centered.
00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:50.000
And in my community work, as you noted, it means the advocating for social equity in a couple different ways.
00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:53.439
So one is through access to arts education.
00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:58.719
I serve on the board of a nonprofit arts um education here in Washington, D.C.
00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:02.719
Access to legal justice and to the legal system.
00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:08.319
That's another board that I'm involved with that ties back to my career as a lawyer.
00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:17.120
And then most recently, it's really been around access to death, doula, and end-of-life care and services.
00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:27.439
And like you said, the idea to me is that equity should really exist from the moment we are born to through through our end-of-life transition.
00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:37.360
Um, it's not, none of these things should be reserved for people within certain zip codes based on where they live or how much money they have.
00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:51.840
These are, especially when it comes to death work, which I'm sure we'll talk about, it really is a fundamental right to have um equity literally from one's first breath to one's last breath.
00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:54.400
Yeah, well how you say that.
00:03:54.800 --> 00:04:01.599
Final and hence for our audience members who may not be acquainted with death to low earth.
00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:03.520
Can you talk to us about what that is?
00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:04.400
Sure.
00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:07.759
So I can't take credit for this um description.
00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:14.400
I just recently had the great privilege of interviewing an author by the name of Darnell Lamont Walker.
00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:16.240
His book is Never Can Say Goodbye.
00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:17.439
Shout out to Darnell.
00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:21.600
This was a week ago, and I love the way he describes it in his book.
00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:28.800
Um, he says, simply put, a death doula is someone who accompanies a person through the dying process.
00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:37.279
We hold space for them, listen to their stories, and help them make choices that honor the way they want to leave their life.
00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:43.040
It's about realizing that in the end, what people want most is to be seen, heard, and loved.
00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:48.720
And so death doula work is really about being present at its core.
00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:50.800
It's about how do we show up?
00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:57.839
How are we present in as someone is making that transition at the end of their lives?
00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:01.519
And some people say end of life doula, some people say death doulas.
00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:04.720
Um, I think we've started to hear more and more about it.
00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:14.240
And I would like to think that's because the entire topic around death and dying is becoming less taboo or stigmatized in our society.
00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:22.079
Um, so really it's about how can we be present with people uh towards the end of their life.
00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:32.079
And we're thinking about uh an end-of-life doula or a death doula.
00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:37.839
What are some of the things for maybe advocacy um that a doula would do?
00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:38.639
Sure.
00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:42.959
So I, you know, most of us who do this work are non-medicalized professionals.
00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:47.680
Obviously, there's an entire healthcare system, right, that is there to take care of folks.
00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:53.839
But most of death doulas that is changing, but many of us are not healthcare professionals by training.
00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:57.120
So there's a whole range of services when we think.
00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:09.519
So as I said, part of it is just about how we show up, being that calm, steady presence in someone's uh life at that very um what can be a beautiful time.
00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:18.319
There's also more in the practical sense, in terms of preparing documentation, um, advanced directives, living will.
00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:25.920
Some of us are lawyers, some of us are not, but we can all serve a role in helping to make sure someone's affairs are in order if that's something that they would want.
00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:28.319
That's a much more practical aspect.
00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:31.439
There's also an element of being there for caregivers.
00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:38.720
So I have pay a patient right now whose mother or whose daughter can't be there all the time.
00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:43.439
And so when she, you know, care, we we often don't think enough about caregivers as well.
00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:48.879
So Adula is there to also provide support to caregivers if that's of interest.
00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:53.839
Um, so there's definitely a human presence being part of it.
00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:56.399
And then there's also the practical side of it.
00:06:57.040 --> 00:07:05.519
There's also the piece which you alluded to, which is ensuring that the person's wishes are heard, seen, respected.
00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:07.839
And I think that's a big part of it as well.
00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:17.839
Making sure that whatever that individual wants in terms of their end-of-life care is respected and known and communicated.
00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:28.480
Yeah, I'm telling uh teary because I'm thinking of um one of my aunties who passed uh last Wednesday.
00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:44.240
Incredible, beautiful woman, and uh and um so this is just springing out so well I'm so sorry for the loss.
00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:45.040
Yeah.
00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:50.319
Just incredible, she touched so many uh people and wasn't added with the rest of the store cast.
00:07:50.800 --> 00:08:01.600
Oh no, that's not this when he's thinking about it and not how well we can, you know, think of her as we have this conversation.
00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:12.079
It is amazing to me how um when we open the door to this conversation, how much of an appetite and a yearning there is for people to be in that space.
00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:16.560
I mean, at this book event, just as an example, it was a beautiful Monday night in DC.
00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:18.639
Folks could have been anywhere.
00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:30.800
And it was a a hacked room of people just really yearning to be in community with other people and think about their own experience with grief and loss and death and dying and all of that.
00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:39.360
So I do think when we open up the door to the conversation, people really share, show up and want to want to engage.
00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:57.759
Yeah, because you know there's there's so much mysteriousness uh around death just as an act of life, and but also as this esoteric concept that you don't only digest, or you digest maybe in parts, and it's yeah.
00:08:58.399 --> 00:08:58.879
For sure.
00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:00.559
I mean, I'm learning all the time.
00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:12.799
I just I took my dad last weekend to um Reflection Park, which is the only multi-faith natural burial ground in Montgomery County, Maryland.
00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:20.159
Um, there's three in the state of Maryland, and I really had no idea what natural burials or green burials are.
00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:27.759
Um, it's you know a very eco-friendly way of um honoring someone at their death.
00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:33.519
I mean, we think of bear, we think of funerals, we think of burials, we think of cremation, we think of sort of the those things.
00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:43.600
But actually, back in the in the olden days, natural barriers were a much more commonly way people were um honored at the end.
00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:51.840
And so it is something that I myself am constantly learning about, uh, which is really interesting.
00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:54.879
Can you educate us about that?
00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:55.919
I had no idea.
00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:00.240
So natural burials are eco-friendly.
00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:09.600
Um essentially, someone's body is um put in a um eco-friendly casket.
00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:11.919
So everything is biodegradable.
00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:15.360
That's one option and buried in the ground.
00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:21.759
Um, another is putting the body in a cloth shroud that is also biodegradable.
00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:25.519
So it's a type of material that is biodegradable.
00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:29.039
And you bury those individuals that way.
00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:31.600
Um, so it there's there are benefits to it.
00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:36.879
Um it might, it's probably not for everyone, but there are benefits to the environment.
00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:47.519
In particular, when we think about how the process is done, it's a very natural, organic, environmentally sustainable and friendly way of um burying someone.
00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:58.799
And so there, yeah, I think there are growing, this is again, I think more and more people are learning about these pieces, but um again, there's just three of them in the state of Maryland.
00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:12.559
And so I just didn't realize the environmental impacts of other forms of burial, whether that's cremation or burying somebody in the more traditional sense in a wooden or some other type of casket.
00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:13.600
So totally.
00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:15.840
Well, now I know that too.
00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:17.759
And so does our audience.
00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:22.320
So and then last night I saw my sister and she sent me a link to composting.
00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:23.840
And I was like, wait, what?
00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:29.039
So I mean, I am always out like you can compost somebody, like what's the difference?
00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:34.399
So the whole world out there yet to be discovered.
00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:35.360
For sure.
00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:43.039
Um, I want to ask you a question about why equity is important in death.
00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:53.600
But before we get to that question, I think we should just remind our audience what equity actually means and the difference between equity and equality.
00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:57.919
I bought this word around equity, and it's like, let's just look at listen.
00:11:58.480 --> 00:11:58.879
Yeah.
00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:03.679
I mean, I think many people use the words equality and equity interchangeably.
00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:10.320
In fact, I think in the past couple years, we've there's been this undue focus on terminology.
00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:16.240
You know, whether it's D-E-N I, D-E-N-I-B, D-E-I-J, J-E-D, D I.
00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:17.919
I mean, it I B E A.
00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:22.000
I mean, we are really getting caught up in the words and the terminology.
00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:27.440
And while I think definitions are important, so we should define the difference between between equality and equity.
00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:34.720
I also don't want us to get caught up in the language so much that we lose sight of what it is we're actually trying to do here.
00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:41.120
So equality is essentially uh making sure everyone has the same thing.
00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:48.320
Um, whereas equity is about making sure people have what they need to be successful, but also dismantling the barriers.
00:12:48.480 --> 00:13:04.399
So the people have probably seen images that show the baseball field and people on different levels of stool so they can see, you know, not everyone should necessarily get the same thing because that might not need that might not be what they need to be successful and thrive.
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:07.919
Yet everyone should have access to a level playing field.
00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:13.679
There shouldn't be barriers in place that precludes somebody from having that access to opportunity.
00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:17.840
Um, and so I think those are the differences between the two words.
00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:18.720
Yeah.
00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:25.600
I mean, you may have a, I don't know if you have, you know, from your vantage point, Pooja, and the work you do, how else you what might what else you might add to that?
00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:26.879
No, perfect.
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:35.120
It's yeah, that uh different or variety of ways that people can succeed in giving the root the giving them what they need.
00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:36.000
Yeah.
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:39.600
Um okay.
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:45.200
So why is equity important in end of life care or death?
00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:46.639
Oh my goodness.
00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:49.519
Um, so there's so many directions to answer this question.
00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:53.039
No, no, no, it's an important question.
00:13:53.279 --> 00:14:03.919
I mean, I I was doing some research around this, and unfortunately, I haven't been able to find research specifically around death doulas in particular.
00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:08.720
But there was a report, and we talked about this at the event, at the book event I was referencing.
00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:12.320
There was a report, and I'll bring this local to meet, which is DC, Washington, D.C.
00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:21.440
There was a report in DC from several years ago that said there was a 21-year gap in life expectancy depending on what neighborhood you live in.
00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:33.120
So depending on what late neighborhood, what your zip code is in Washington, D.C., there's a 21-year gap in life expectancy, which to me is absolutely unacceptable.
00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:48.399
And so when we think about systemic barriers in Washington, D.C., there are black and brown residents and under-resourced wards, and they are much less likely to have access to things like home hospice.
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:54.639
Um, they're more likely to experience their final days in an institutional setting, hospital setting.
00:14:54.879 --> 00:15:12.720
And so when I think about equity and end-of-life care, I think about the reality that everyone should have access to emotional support, to community care, to death duolas, all of which are not accessible right now unless you pay out of pocket.
00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:27.840
So from an advocacy standpoint, this could be dreaming, but it would be amazing to see insurers, health insurance companies start including or covering um death dual or end-of-life services.
00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:30.080
Right now it's entirely out of pocket.
00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:43.200
So there's just a fundamental difference in how someone's end-of-life experience might be based on their racial, ethnic, or any other marginalized factors.
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:59.679
Um, and I ultimately think it's really important that we just like in the workplace or in other settings where we're trying to dismantle systemic barriers, we should be able to do that for people who are looking for um certain types of care at the end of their lives.
00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:09.039
I mean, I really do believe that every individual should have the ability to die and end their life with dignity in a way they wish.
00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:13.759
And that's just not happening right now because of all the barriers that are in place.
00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:16.559
Yeah.
00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:59.039
I mean, the more you think about it, uh, we are so focused on non-disabled, most productive, most profitable groups in our society, and then we focus on getting everything from them, and we're we really devalue the I mean when you started from the top when you started, you know, equity is from birth to death, and we really devalue and friends, children.
00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:13.920
Uh we see them as if you know if you're not a productive part of our capitalist society, like, okay, you know, life care is just you know, and if you're uh disabled, uh you know, as we know, how you get treated in this society.
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:16.240
And then of course, and life care.
00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:16.960
Yeah.
00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:20.319
So it's the entire human cycle of life, right?
00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:23.039
I mean, it's at every step along the way.
00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:28.640
Um, and I even think about, you know, what happens when you don't have uh when you don't speak the language.
00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:44.559
You know, I've seen firsthand friends and family members, their experiences with the healthcare system, and I come from a family of healthcare professionals, is vastly different depending on if you have some, if you're able to advocate for yourself or you have somebody who's advocating for you.
00:17:44.880 --> 00:18:00.079
So I think of all the people who aren't able to speak the language, who might be alone navigating the healthcare system alone, um, all of those issues just make the experience vastly different, depending on on those factors.
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:05.279
But yes, like you said, I mean, beginning from birth, all throughout, we see it in the education system.
00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:08.319
I mean, we see it in the in mass incarceration.
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:31.119
I mean, every step along the way, there are barriers in place that make it harder for certain individuals, marginalized, black and brown, LGBTQ, people with disabilities, um, make their experience much different than than if you um that if you don't and if you don't face those barriers.
00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:32.319
Yeah.
00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:38.000
And there's so much um fear surrounded uh surrounding it.
00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:46.640
You know, getting I'm just thinking of, you know, when I for example, when I gave birth, I had a dual who kind of explained everything.
00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:48.400
But there was like time.
00:18:49.119 --> 00:19:01.039
You know, like clinging You know, even when I started my contractions, there's still for me, there was still time to be like, okay, so this is the next step.
00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:07.680
And like that's a massive amount of pain, but like someone's explaining to me what to expect next and what I the next step should be.
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:20.079
And then wondering uh death doula's um mandate is what uh you know, you have your patient there and and how it walks them through about what to expect next.
00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:21.359
Yeah, well, that's so interesting.
00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:23.039
That's interesting you mentioned that.
00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:32.160
First of all, some insurers, I don't know if this was the case with you or not, but there are insurance birth insurers that are who are starting to cover birth doulas, which I think is amazing.
00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:37.519
And hopefully we'll see that same transition or that'll be adapted to death doulas as well.
00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:54.960
But it's interesting you say that because I do have a patient now and her daughter, the same one I'm talking about, and her daughter, um, it's it's just understanding what the experience of death is like, de, like you said, demystifying it and taking away some of the fear around it.
00:19:55.119 --> 00:20:07.839
I think we all have this image of our minds of what death is like, and it can actually be a very peaceful, beautiful, calm experience, but that's not what we normally see or hear.
00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:15.359
So in this instance, the other night, she was telling me she heard her mom what she thought was a death rattle.
00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:23.440
And a death rattle is a certain sound that someone may make oftentimes as death is approaching.
00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:31.359
They're not in pain, it's not uncomfortable, but it is a sound that can be concerning if you're not familiar with it.
00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:33.440
And so we talked about that.
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:37.279
It turns out her mother is still here, not, you know, but she is on hospice.
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:39.680
So, you know, her death is coming.
00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:42.720
Um, but we talked about what does a death rattle look like?
00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:43.839
What does it sound like?
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:45.440
What are some signs?
00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:46.640
Is it okay?
00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:50.960
Like if if she's doing X, Y, or Z, does that mean it couldn't be imminent?
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:53.440
Of course, everyone's death is different.
00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:58.559
And it might it's not, you know, cookie cutter or buy the book, but these are things to look out for.
00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:06.960
And it it does demystify it and it does bring a sense of calm that, okay, now I know what this is, and I know she's not in pain.
00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:16.319
And I think there's so that is absolutely uh it's it's similar to what you're saying in terms of helping an individual prepare for what's to come.
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:18.160
Yeah.
00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:30.000
I know we really don't think about all of these minutiae of what people are experiencing, and um you know, Dr.
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:33.920
Google I think we have to take care of Right.
00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:34.400
Yes.
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:35.200
No, Dr.
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:40.160
Google can can definitely add to angst and anxiety, I think.
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:42.000
Yeah.
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:55.279
Um Is there something about uh and end of life doula, outright death doula that you want our audience to better understand or be more curious about?
00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:58.319
Uh, or a question that they could ask.
00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:01.759
Um, like We've got a death jeweler before.
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:03.599
Is it the person who's passing?
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:05.519
Is it only for the family members?
00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:08.640
What did a family member want somebody for them?
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:15.519
Uh, but but a person who's actually going through it doesn't want that.
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:19.440
What are some things that are special?
00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:23.759
Um That's a great question.
00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:33.680
Um, and I would say there are first and foremost, there are a lot of different resources available for people who are wanting to learn more about Death Doula.
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:45.279
There are national associations like I know the, which now I'm going to miss the spelling out, but it is I-N-E-L-D-A.
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:54.480
And there are others where there are a wealth of resources just about Death Doula, end-of-life care, what the options are, what the services are, what's available.
00:22:54.960 --> 00:23:01.839
Um I would say that it really depends.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:06.480
I hate this answer, and I am a lawyer, so I'm going to give it a very standard lawyer answer.
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:11.200
I think it really depends on what an individual or their family member is looking for.
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:18.720
Um, I think first and for it's part of it is just educating yourself that there is this survey service available.
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:22.480
It's become, it's gotten a lot more attention in mainstream media lately.
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:29.440
The show The Pit had an episode with a death doula who came, um, who was there, and people were talking about that.
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:36.160
Nicole Kidman has talked about her um training to be a death doula after her mother passed.
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:42.240
So for some reason, it's it's I don't think it's, I think people are maybe awakening to this idea.
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:43.519
I don't think it's a trend.
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:44.640
I hope it's not a trend.
00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:56.960
I think it's more people are awakening to this reality that the one thing we all have in common is that we will all die in a world that is so polarized and that is so divided right now.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:05.680
It is the one universal thing that brings us all together, irrespective of what we look like, where we're from, what our zip code is, what our income is, all of that.
00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:18.319
Um, so I think part of it is just learning that this is a resource that is out there for people who are um, they, you know, it's not even necessarily if you are very, very ill.
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:22.000
People can get death doulas to start helping with the planning.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:33.759
I mean, for myself, I was I when I did my training, I do love myself in terms of what are the documents I need to have, what do they have, do I have them in place?
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:39.839
The will, the directives, the DNRs, like, oh, what it, whatever, even just what are my wishes?
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:41.599
I mean, what was it that I really want?
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:45.759
After I saw this natural burial site, I was telling my sister, I'm like, I'm not even sure what I want.
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.759
Like I thought I wanted, but I'm not even sure if I know.
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:57.279
So I think part of it is even if you're not, you know, at it, it the person could simply be there to help you get things in order.
00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:04.559
Um, even if you're not, you know, hopefully you don't have some some incurable or or horrible health situation.
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:14.160
And then, of course, yes, for an a family member who might be on hospice or palliative care, um, or individual rather, and then caregivers.
00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:20.240
And there are sensitive issues and dynamics that will often come up, especially when family is involved.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.759
Um, maybe that that could even look like a difference of opinion.
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:28.240
You know, the individual may want certain things, the family members might disagree.
00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:30.480
That can be a tense, difficult situation.
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:37.839
I think it's really important for the doula to know in that point, sort of what is their role and making sure that there's transparent communication.
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:41.359
But those can definitely be harder situations to navigate.
00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.759
At a starting point, though, I think just knowing that this support is there.
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:56.720
And again, going back to the accessibility piece, you know, hopefully there are ways in which more and more people will have access to this if this is something that they want or need.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:05.119
The website uh that you mentioned is INLDA, the International End of Life Doom Association.
00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:08.799
We'll put it in our show notes as I-n-el-da-da org.
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:15.920
And um, just being on it just now, it's there's so much information here that's very accessible.
00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:17.920
Yeah, there's a lot of services.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:23.200
There's a lot I went through a program called Going with Grace by Alua Arthur.
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:27.759
She is the uh the the founder of that organization.
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:32.079
There are folks like Darnell Lamont Walker, who wrote his book recently.
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:34.960
There are communities, even in Washington, D.C.
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:37.519
There's a group called the DC Death Collective.
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:43.440
So, I mean, there's a an abundance of information support community that's out there.
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.839
Part of it is just knowing that it exists and how to find it.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:56.400
Okay, we'll link to uh Donnell Lamont Walker's book and also the website goingwithgrace.com.
00:26:57.039 --> 00:26:58.240
Um, lots of information.
00:26:58.559 --> 00:26:59.599
There's so much out there.
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:01.039
There's a lot of research.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:07.920
It's one of those things that I, for me, even I didn't realize uh that this was an entire space, right?
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:09.920
Then death work is an entire space.
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:17.599
And I actually think that this is one thing I would also add when you when you asked me that question that I hadn't said, and Darnell talks about this a lot.
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:21.440
Um for me, it was not just about death and dying.
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:25.119
And this is what I really tell people when they say, doesn't it make you sad?
00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:26.640
And you know, all the bings.
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:31.039
To me, it's given me a laser focus on how to live.
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:35.920
So it's not just being an end of death, an end of death or a death doula.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:52.640
I think of it as being a life doula that I am learning how to live more intentionally and better and show up every day so that when my turn is up, I will have said I lived a full life.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:55.359
So it's not just about death and dying.
00:27:55.519 --> 00:27:58.079
It's about how are we living?
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:00.720
And that's why I do this.
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:09.279
Oh we can't part two is gonna be necessary.
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:13.440
Darnell says, he I wish I wrote it down somewhere.
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:15.119
I we talked about it when I met with him.
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:19.279
He says it's um he what did he say?
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:25.920
He said it's like being a life jewel and he has a beautiful way of talking about it, and I that's exactly why I do it.
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:33.839
It's not just about how we leave the world, it's how are we showing up every day to live better.
00:28:47.279 --> 00:29:12.480
So actually let's connect that because um in thinking about how we are showing up what can ardent listeners do to start incorporating um uh issues with equity or thinking about um equity in their everyday life.
00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:13.039
Yeah.
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:14.160
You know what's funny?
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:17.599
I think people really want to know like what is it that I can do?
00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:22.640
You know, we talk about inclusion, we talk about these issues, we all go back to our day-to-day lives.
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:30.720
One of the things I've learned, especially working in organizations and professional services firms, is that it's amazing and important to have the conversation.
00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:40.079
And it's also really important to give people concrete tips or takeaways or the things they can do once they leave the conversation.
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:42.160
Um, so there are some simple things.
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:46.319
I mean, it's this is a muscle that you strengthen or you practice, which is great.
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:47.440
It's not a destination.
00:29:47.599 --> 00:30:00.960
We're not going to have solved all the problems, but there are things we can do in our day-to-day lives to help shape the space that we are in, the to help shape the space um that we create for others.
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:28.000
So, I mean, it's simple things, it's being curious, um, asking questions, you know, probing, not in a way that's awkward or you know, uh inappropriate, but I have found in all of the work that I do that one of the greatest strengths that I have is being curious and just coming from a place of genuine interest in another human being.
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:30.240
And there is so much you can learn.
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:45.680
There is so much you can be, there are so many barriers you can break down when you just keep an open mind and um and especially those who aren't necessarily super vocal, you know, pay attention to who's speaking, who's leaning in, who's not speaking in up as much.
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.960
A lot of times the quieter people have a lot to say.
00:30:49.359 --> 00:31:04.160
Um, thinking about how we spend our time and our money, you know, are we supporting locally, you know, local women-owned, or it's Pride Month, LGBQ plus owned, or, you know, what are the organizations that we are volunteering for or with?
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:06.319
That's something that I mentioned I do.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:09.039
Um what are we reading?
00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:10.319
What are we consuming?
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:12.160
What are we listening to?
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:14.559
Are we open to other perspectives?
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:20.480
I feel like that's even been hard for me to really be open to other perspectives, but it's important.
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:26.720
Um, how are we diversifying who we surround ourselves by and what we are consuming?
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:38.400
Um, in the death work space, I think there's some really important, um, a really important need to recognize how different cultures and communities have traditions around death and mourning.
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:53.440
So it just even at this park that I was telling you about, the natural burial ground, they have a separate space for Jewish individuals and Muslim um families to preserve their cultural traditions around um burial.
00:31:53.599 --> 00:32:04.400
And so, how are we respecting and learning about cultures and um death and mourning and how that shows up in different in different parts of the world?
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:17.359
So I actually think there's some really simple, concrete things we can do in our day-to-day life that will allow us to show up better, but that will also positively impact those around us.
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:24.079
And if we each do that individually, the ripple effect that that can then have is huge.
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:30.640
Sometimes I have to think about it from that perspective because otherwise it can get really overwhelming.
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:35.200
Um, and you know, it can be like, how is I really making a difference?
00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:40.160
Or, you know, are we moving forward or are we just, you know, continuously going back?
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:44.880
So I think sometimes it's the micro actions, thinking about your own sphere of influence.
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:48.880
And ultimately, if each of us do that, we can change the world.
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:50.640
Absolutely.
00:32:50.880 --> 00:33:05.279
You know, I I tell I also tell people when we're talking about like being luxurious, that there's questions that I actually work really well for my kids are uh what do you want to tell me about your day?
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:07.119
And tell me more.
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:08.799
Love it.
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:11.200
And they fill in the blank.
00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:13.759
And they tell me so much more than how was your day at screen?
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:14.799
Right.
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:18.480
We we think we're gonna get somewhere by saying, Hey, how was your day?
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:20.880
Like it was good, right?
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:22.000
You know, but it's simple things.
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:24.640
How like what how are we asking questions?
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:28.720
Nuanced little tweaks like that can open up a world of conversation.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:30.799
Yes, yes.
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:36.079
So I am you know when you mention look at what you're consuming, what are you reading?
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:40.400
What podcast you're listening to, and what kind of echo chamber do you prefer to be in?
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:42.400
Because you know, just polarized.
00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:44.319
We do prefer, I mean, that's okay.
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:48.240
We prefer an echo chamber, but I think what's really important is to question.
00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:48.799
Yeah.
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:51.839
Are we questioning even the things that we agree with?
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:52.480
Yeah.
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:53.759
Can we still question us?
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:54.319
Yes.
00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:56.720
And I think that's so important for our kids too.
00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:01.519
I mean, these are all skills that they'll need to have as they navigate the world going forward.
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:04.400
And I wish I had a I mean, I'm still building that muscle.
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:11.840
I'm not gonna uh say that I, you know, have easy conversations with people who have very, very different views than me.
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:18.719
But I think it's a muscle we can strengthen, but we have to expose ourselves to those different perspectives in order to do so.
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:22.960
Yeah, and that that can feel very daunting.
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:23.760
Yes.
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:35.679
Um And then, of course, you mentioned being intentional with how we spend our money and um and looking at what different communities do and the traditions that they follow.
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:36.639
Yeah.
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:45.199
And absolutely, and I think uh one of the things that I think about every day is what privilege do I have?
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:48.480
And how can I use that to help others?
00:34:48.719 --> 00:34:53.760
I mean, there's certainly parts of my we didn't get into this, this is a whole other conversation of our identity.
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:56.239
Some of it's marginalized, some of it's privileged.
00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:08.559
How can I use the privilege that I have, whether that's, you know, being a lawyer or, you know, what whatever it might be, to help bring others up, lift other voices.
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:19.679
Um, and so to the extent that, because I'm very, very mindful that there are many folks who don't have um some of the things that I have access to.
00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:23.440
So how can I use that in support of others and in the community?
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:25.440
Yeah, absolutely.
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:29.840
Okay.
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:31.920
How can people find you?
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:38.639
If they're interested in your work as a death duel, how can they get to know you and uh continue this composition?
00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:42.639
Well, right now you can find me on social media.
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:47.360
I'm on Instagram uh at being.jia.
00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:51.280
There is another person with my name in New York that is not me.
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:57.119
That's another story because I get mistaken for her all the time, and she's doing her own amazing thing out there.
00:35:57.280 --> 00:35:59.440
I'm also on LinkedIn as well.
00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:02.800
So right now, those are the two best ways to find me and connect with me.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:08.000
And I'm more than happy to talk and engage um with anyone who is interested.
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:10.159
Yeah, incredible.
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:13.280
On Instagram at beanjaya.
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:15.199
It's not Jay's.
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:16.239
Yes, exactly.
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:17.119
Beam.j.
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:17.840
Yes, I both.
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:18.880
Thank you, Pooja.
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:23.119
Um, it's really funny because both of us have extremely common names.
00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:29.440
And I'm sure we're mistaken for having very uh unique names, except your names were so common.
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:31.280
I tell people that all the time.
00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:34.400
They're like, You're the first Jenga government, and I'm like, believe me.
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:36.800
Jay, and I'm sure Pooja too, right?
00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:42.880
I mean, in India these names are your grands are like the Susan of the Exactly.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:44.320
I'm real person.
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:48.480
And I'm sure yours gets mispronounced all the time as well.
00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:49.199
Yes.
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:51.519
Yes, indeed.
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:54.239
You know, I have my kids call me by my first name.
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:57.840
They call me Mama, but they have said my name so many times at home.
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:02.800
Because I never want my kids to feel like they can't pronounce my name, and I never want them to mispronounce it.
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:08.079
So sometimes my second one, uh how is Puja mispronounce?
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:09.760
I know.
00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:12.960
I could see your last name.
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:19.920
I'm not quite sure I understand how you mispronounce Puja, but Yeah, sometimes people put like a Z in there, like Pooja.
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:24.960
Okay sometimes or a light, any and then there's like a whole variety of things.
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:30.480
But my younger one, youngest one, will say, Mama, mama, mama, and then we'll be answering, right?
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:31.760
And finally, Pooja.
00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:36.320
Well, we could talk about that.
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:42.400
I mean, there's a million things we could talk about, but the importance of getting someone's name right is a whole other thing as well.
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:52.239
I firmly believe that we should try our very best, and we are all human and we make mistakes, to pronounce someone's name the way they wish to have it said.
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:53.199
Simply.
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:56.719
And can we just let a non-corollarity?
00:37:57.039 --> 00:38:03.519
Yeah, when you mess up somebody's name, just say oops, and try to get it right the next time, but please don't say you butchered it.
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:06.880
It's like violent minds about my name.
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:09.519
And it's like, do we not use that word?
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:14.719
Someone once told me, someone once told me, I said, Can I pick your brain sometime?
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:19.199
And she's like, Can you not tell me that you want to pick my brain?
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:24.800
And ever since then, whenever I reach out to people, I'm like, I cannot say pick your brain.
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:26.159
Never thought about it that way.
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:29.440
But I'm like, yes, why anyone want to pick anyone's brain?
00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:35.280
But your name, pick your brain.
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:37.760
Let's be softer words, you know.
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:40.159
Yeah, nonviolent communication.
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:44.320
Jim, it's wonderful to have you here.
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:45.920
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:49.199
You have enlightened our audience, you've enlightened me.
00:38:49.440 --> 00:39:05.760
Um thinking a lot about Ray Conte throughout this whole episode, and you know, I just value all of your work and your thoughtfulness about you know how you want to live your life and how you want to give to your community.
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:09.280
It's it's aspirational and inspirational.
00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:11.039
Well, thank you, Pooja.
00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:12.159
It has been wonderful.
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:14.559
I really appreciate all that you do.
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:18.960
And if I can support you in any way, I'm in your corner.
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:20.559
Thank you.
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:25.199
And for all of you, we can't wait to see you next week on Everyday Equity.
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:26.079
Take care.
