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80% of students who enter a community college say they want to transfer and get a bachelor's degree, but only 16% actually do. And that was shocking to me that that so many students sort of get lost along the way, aren't able to finish their their goals, and I think it is because it's a complicated process, if you don't know all the ins and outs.
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Hi folks. Welcome back to the podcast. Here we are right at the precipice of the start of the school year, and I know parents are really stressed, and I know educators are also really stressed getting ready to welcome their students back to their campus and start this whole process all over again. Well, today's guest is a repeat guest, I'm really thrilled to have her back, Jamie Smith, who has become a great friend of mine and someone I really, really respect, not only for her like vast amount of knowledge about literally everything, but also for her sense of integrity and values. I just think we really get along well. And the exciting news is that Jamie has a book out. The book that so many people need.
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It is a comprehensive guide to college transfer, and it addresses lots of different reasons people might transfer, and lots of different types of students that transfer. So you'll hear us at the beginning of our conversation, talking about the pathway from a community college, a two year college to a four year college.
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But Jamie's book also covers what happens if you want to transfer from one four years college to another four year college. If maybe you started college and then you took a break and you worked for a while and you want to go back and finish your degree. She talks about the situation for military veterans and all sorts of really nuanced things, and it is very hard to get this information.
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And so this book is such a great reference guide for so many people who really need it. I'll let the rest of the interview speak for itself. Let's go to it so Jamie, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. I'm so excited to have you back, to have you back at this time of year, and to be able to talk about your new book, which was really kind of one of the main reasons we started becoming close, because we were thinking about writing books at the same time. And I'm so excited to see your ideas come to fruition.
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I've seen the book, I've read the book. I'm just so thrilled about it. So thank you, and welcome back to the podcast.
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Yes, thank you. I'm so happy to be back, and I was so happy to go through a lot of this process with you. I t was, it was fun to have an accountability buddy to get through the process of actually writing this book.
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Right, right? And I appreciate the shout out that you put for me in your book?
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Yes. Oh, great. Well, okay, let's, let's zoom out wide a little bit before we go into the book. So you are an independent educational consultant, and you do a bunch of other things, you know, you teach and mentor and all sorts of great, great things. How did the work around transfer admissions start to become one of your niches.
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Yes. So I've been in education for a long time, and I've always loved the sort of accessibility of Transfer Pathways, this idea that, you know, anybody could start with just a few classes at a community college, or, you know, if they started a degree and then didn't finish it. I love this idea that it was never too late to move on and get your bachelor's and go from there.
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And then when my own daughter was approaching College, we were homeschooling and doing community college as like high school for homeschoolers was really common, so she did that, and she just loved it so much.
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She's like, why would I go through the stress of a first year application, when there is this very clear transfer pathway from my excellent community college to a four year in my state? And that made so much sense to me. So we went through that process, and I learned a lot going through that with her.
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It's been like 10 years now, which is shocking, and I realized that it was a very clear system. If you knew where the information was, if you knew where to find the details, and if you didn't know where those details were or how to apply them, it would be really difficult to transfer. So it worked out beautifully for my daughter, because she had me behind the scenes, but it would not be as easy for everybody else, and I started doing more research and finding out about the statistics, where 80% of students who enter a community college say they want to transfer and get a bachelor's degree, but only 16% actually do. And that was shocking to me that so many students. Of get lost along the way, aren't able to finish their their goals, and I think it is because it's a complicated process, if you don't know all the ins and outs.
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And so that was really when I got into things, and I ended up getting a postmaster certificate and transfer leadership and practice from the University of North Georgia in collaboration with the National Institute for the Study of transfer students, they run a great post masters program for classes where I was able to dig into the history of transfer and, you know, all the the good, the bad and the ugly of it. And it was just really eye opening. And made me realize that there is a huge need for more information on this subject and just talking about it so that it can be de stigmatized. A third of all students transfer at least once on their way to a degree, and yet we don't really talk about it that much. So I think we need to just bring it into conversations more. Because the more I talk about it, the more I find people who are like, Oh yeah, I transferred. My kid transferred. My sister transferred. You know, everybody knows a transfer, but nobody is really just talking about it normally, as if it's part of the college process.
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Yeah, and you touched on so many really eye opening little tidbits there, that 80% to 16% differential.
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And I know that when we talk about transfer. We're talking about a couple of different things. So can you kind of give us that definition to start?
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Yeah. So a lot of my focus initially, it was on the community college to university transfer pathway, kind of a planned pathway, the idea that you would start at a community college to save money or to rebuild your academic transcript if high school wasn't great for you. You know, that was sort of my original focus, but since then, I've expanded, and I've looked more at four year to four year transfers, especially after covid. There were so many students who kind of blindly chose a college because they weren't able to go out and do traditional tours. So they were often showing up on a campus they'd never seen before, and then realized it wasn't the right fit. So I started seeing more of those four year to four year transfers. There are also students who maybe struggle at their first four year and it's not that they don't like it, but they've, you know, ended up with some lower grade, they may end up on academic suspension, and then they're looking for a way to regroup and get back into university, and maybe they want to start fresh somewhere else.
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Then they're also like the the older adults re entry students.
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There's a statistic keeps floating around, something like 40 million Americans have some college credits, but no degree, no credential. So there are all of those students as well who are wondering if their credits are still valid, if they can transfer them into a program and complete a degree. And the answer is yes, you just have to find the right program.
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Yeah, that's great. So you know, as you mentioned, if you know the process or who to ask for the information? You know, the steps that you have to take. It's a pretty What would I say established pathway, right? Yes, but yeah. What is the barrier to getting that information? Why is it so complicated? Where do people go for transfer information?
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Yeah. So it depends on if you're a four year to four year, or like a two year to four year. The two year to four year pathways are very well established in many states, but it really requires the students to find an advisor, make appointments, go check in with them and create a plan, and the advisors are often overloaded.
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They don't have enough appointments to serve all the students they need to serve, and some students aren't doing that work of reaching out. There's a another statistic that came out recently, that 48% of students on on a transfer pathway in community college never visit their advisor. And you really can't do it alone. You need some sort of support, whether you're going to visit your community college advisor or talk to an IEC or use a book or a guide, or, you know, do a class. Some community colleges have classes walking you through these things. You know, you need something you you really can't just wing it. Every state is different, and very often the agreements with individual universities are different, and even within whole systems like this is some I sent my daughter through was the California system. And even there, going from one community college and trying to fulfill the requirements for multiple campuses in the University of California system, even that is challenging, because each UC can set some of their own standards, and I know California is really working on trying to streamline that and make it simpler, but for the time being, you could be preparing to be a bio major at one UC campus and not meet the requirements to transfer in the same major to a different UC.
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Campus. So trying to, like, cover all your bases and keep different options open can be really challenging for those community college students, four year to four year. It's kind of the Wild West universities can make whatever rules they want about minimum requirements, maximum units, how credits will or won't transfer. So some students think, Oh, I'm just applying for transfer, like I'm applying for first year. And they don't realize that their credits might not transfer. They can be at a an established, accredited, respectable university, but if the classes they've taken don't align directly with classes at the new university, they may find themselves losing a lot of credits and falling, you know, a semester, a year or more behind in their degree plan. So that's kind of where we lose students.
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It's the lack of information or realizing that they're they've been set back multiple semesters and are going to have to spend more time and money to get a degree. That's when students get disheartened and drop out, and I can't blame them, really.
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Yeah, I'm just imagining somebody who's worked so hard to get their associates, or even get into whatever four year college they're in, and then going through all the work to transfer and then realizing what a setback it is, or, you know, other kinds of roadblocks.
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It's really disheartening.
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Because, yes, you know, getting this education is not easy to begin with. It's not roadblocks.
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So it sounds like, especially for those who may want to start with Community College to your college and then transfer to a four year it may be important to do some prior planning
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Absolutely.
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before you even start.
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Yes, absolutely.
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Talk about that a little bit.
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Yeah. So that's definitely something I go over in the book, you know, trying to think ahead and make a plan.
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And, you know, some students get to the community college and it just feels like you know, you're a kid in the candy store looking at the catalog. Are all these fun classes you could take all these different topics that you didn't have access to in high school, and now you do, and it's really exciting, but you have to be strategic about the classes you're taking. And if you know your major, you need to be looking at the prerequisites. If you don't know your major, then you need to be looking at those general education or breadth requirements. Definitely take Math and English early on. Get those out of the way, because just about every university wants to see that you've done math and English before you transfer. And then find some of those, like, you know, 101, type intro classes that would serve as the foundation in different majors. Usually you can fulfill Gen Ed requirements with those.
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But also then be dabbling in different majors and finding out what you enjoy, you also have to look at classes that have prerequisites. Very often there are sequences, you know, we think of math, yes, you have to go in order and take calc one before Calc Two. But you may also have that with chemistry and physics and with physics, you may also have a math prerequisite. In addition to physics one has to come before physics two. And when you, when you look at that all laid out, you may find that if you don't start that math class your very first semester, and then also plan on, like doing summers, you may not have a way to finish the entire physics sequence in that two years. If you're hoping for a two plus two plan, you know.
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Right. And is there any prior planning that you think four year to four year students need to be doing?
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It's a little bit harder because you don't have those established pathways. You know, there aren't a lot of these, like, you know, checklists of classes that you should take as a transfer student to be prepared for your next step. But a lot of the same advice applies. Make sure you've done your colleges English Freshman Composition requirement. Make sure that you've either, you know, finished an AP math in high school, or you've done a math class at your current college.
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Check into foreign language requirements. You know, some schools need you to have a second language, and the number of semesters may vary. And then where I see the biggest problems in four year to four year is when students are taking really sort of obscure classes, more niche classes that are unusual if you stick with more of those introductory, you know, 101, type classes, the sort of classic introductions to different areas, those are more likely to transfer than the very unique classes that probably sound really fun, but if your accepting university doesn't have a class like that, it's probably not going to transfer, no matter how awesome it was. So when you get to the point at your first university where you think, I don't think I want to be here, I think I want to transfer somewhere else, then you want to be thinking about taking those core classes more than the unique niche classes that your university might offer. You can also check tools like transferology.
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Transferology.com allows you to, sort of like, upload your your classes and then search for schools that have previously accepted those classes for transfer and. Some schools have their own transfer equivalency databases, and if you just search for the name of the university with transfer equivalency database, you can find a list they've taken transfer students from your school before. You'll see what classes have already transferred and know that those are pretty much a sure thing outside of that list, it's more of a gamble.
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Okay, so let's reorient to the book. Now I get that there's this just gap in information. There's so many nuances depending on why you're transferring, where you're transferring, maybe other aspects of the particular student, and there's no single repository of this information.
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So I think your book is such a great reference and guidebook.
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And I know it's like, you know, set up step by step, and there's so many helpful resources in it, too. But talk to me a little bit about really who the book is for, who's going to get the most out of this book.
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Yeah, thank you. I did try to cover everything I possibly could, which was a tall order because there are so many nuances and different kinds of transfer students, but it was really important to me to make sure that there was information in there for every possible transfer situation, and I wanted every transfer student to really feel seen in it. So I included a lot of case studies of different kinds of transfer students that I've worked with, so that everybody who reads this could potentially see themselves in that position, becoming a successful transfer student. And it meant that I had to condense a lot of information to make sure that I had relevant details for those planned transfer from community college students, as well as the sort of unplanned, spontaneous four year to four year transfer. And also make it relevant to older re entry students, military veterans who come out with, you know the joint services transcript, and you know they may be transfer students at some schools and not at others, because they have a unique transcript that has some credit recommendations, but they may or may not have taken college classes, so they're in sort of a special sort of limbo zone. So I tried to touch on all the bases and where there were real specifics. I tried to get a lot of resources so that you've got websites to go to if you're, for example, a military vet or you're an athlete, and need to think about the transfer portal, you know? So I really walk you through everything. If you're a two year to four year or four year to four year, kind of a standard sort of transfer situation, if you've got a specialty situation, I tried to make sure that there were plenty of resources so that you could get additional details and support.
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That's great. And what would you say the timeline is, I know the book is coming out this month. Is that because this is when people should really start making these plans?
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You know, that was a great conversation that I had with my publisher. When Should this come out? So the book comes out August 26 2025 if you're you're watching this at another time, or listening to this at a different time, and we were trying to think, when is the most valuable time to put it out there? And it's hard to say, because transfers can happen at any time. But we thought, you know, sort of the back to school time, the college application time, maybe it was a good time to be thinking about transfer as well. In some places, your transfer applications for fall will happen almost a year in advance, and your applications due in November or the following September. In other cases, transfers are handled much later, and you might not apply until March for transfer that September. So it really does depend, and that's actually one of the challenges is because there are these very different deadlines. Sometimes you are waiting on decisions from one university while you're still applying to others, and you may have a deposit deadline at one but you don't even have a decision from another. And so there can be a lot of juggling there too. It's just another example of how transfer is really not standardized, and first year has a lot more sort of commonalities, I guess, in like, you know, decision day, May 1, you know, we have some some expectations. And transfer is kind of the Wild West.
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I gotta tell you, Jamie, I mean, I think the Wild West is maybe the right term to use here, but it's like a labyrinth. It is. Every question if you answer, I'm like, Oh, my God, it goes deeper. What? What are we going to find the way out or the way?
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Yeah, that's, that's why I wanted to write the book. Because I was like, I can't clone myself. I can't guide every student through this personally. So I've got to, I got to get this information out there in an easier to access way.
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Yeah, for real. I think we're all so grateful for doing this and laying it out. I think it will be really helpful for students, but also for people who work with students, yes, right? And whether they're parents or caretakers or other teachers or just mentors in their life, like. To have a place that they can go to to say, Oh, here's the book on transfer, and we'll figure out what your pathway through this.
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Yes, it is a little bit. Choose your own adventure, right?
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It really is. And, you know, I've written it to the students, but it's definitely something that has information that is valuable to anybody supporting the transfer students, and I've even talked to some high school counselors who are interested, because they know that their population is very much headed to a two year college first. And so if they can get those students started on the right track from the very beginning, I think that's going to be really helpful for a whole generation of students starting at community college.
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Absolutely, and with all the changes that we're seeing to student funding and certain policies, I mean, it's just, it's changing all the time. So it's like not even worth talking about a specific change. I think more and more people should be considering the community college to four year pathway. It's going to save them money, it's going to be more flexible. It's, I mean, it's just such a great option. One of the things that you bring up is that there is a stigma here, yes, and I wonder if you can help us understand when a student transfers, what does their diploma look like when they finally graduate? What would an employer see? You know how like, that's beyond the like, peer stigma, I guess, of like, your high school friends are going to four year colleges and you're going to a two year and you may feel some kind of way about that which is totally valid. But again, we're trying to destigmatize this. You know, the other concern that people have is, you know, are people going to know, am I going to be employable? You know, what happens on the other side of college? So talk to us about that for a minute.
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Right? No. And those are valid concerns. And first of all, your diploma is only going to say the college you graduated from, unless you decide to put that information out there, and maybe you do, you know, again, to go back to my own daughter, she's very proud of the associate's degree she earned, and she actually earned it in a different subject area, so she feels like that adds to her resume. So she puts both on her resume. But unless you decide that's something you you want to do, and that enhances your application you don't need to, and they're only going to see that you graduated with a bachelor's degree from this one particular university, and nothing else is really out there or known about you. But also, you know, you do want to think practically about things, and if you're going to be a transfer student, and you want to make sure that you are employable.
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You know, you have to be looking at work experience options, internships, those kinds of experiences. And you know, those are typically the things that you would do in a junior and senior year. So if you're thinking two plus two transfer, you know you're there at the four year for those experiences, but you have to be prepared to hit the ground running. You've got to be like, you know, that summer before you even go to campus for your junior year, you've got to be doing the research on the Career Center and the internship options, and you've got to be at office hours with your professors on day one, getting to know them, so that you can make sure you have those same internship and research opportunities that students who've been there from first year will have. You know, it's definitely possible to do, but you can't, you can't dawdle. You got to get on it, you know.
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Right. I mean, I know one of the challenges here is, unless you're doing the two year to four year route, you may not know that you are going to transfer. So true. So, yeah, I think just keeping an open mind about it, I think.
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Yes. Yeah. You know, the stigma, as far as, like, you know what your peers think and and fearing what employers think, you know, I think that the stigma is diminishing. People are starting to realize that it is a very valid option to go to community college first, and it is a practical financial choice that shouldn't be discriminated against. You know, I think we're getting to the point where we realize that is a completely valid option to, you know, save half the cost of tuition, basically. But also, we have to look at the history of community college and realize that, you know, part of their origin story was that they were designed to be sort of a lesser option, a way to prevent the the riffraff from getting into the elite four year universities. You know, there were some stipulations back 100 150 years ago that said, you know, you only get federal funding if you're open to everyone and those universities that didn't want to accept women and people of color and lower income students, working class students, they had to devise, you know, a separate track, basically, for those students. And so when you think about how community colleges were actually invented as these lesser institutions. Options.
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It's easy to see how that stigma remains, but it's just not true anymore. Very often, your professor at the community college also teaches a class at the four year university down the road. You know, there aren't a lot of full time teachers anymore, and so people are stringing together part time options, and they may include community college and four year universities, and you can get the same education but pay a lot less at the two year.
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And, you know, I'll add a plug too, that I see the most innovative things happening in education on community college campuses. You know, our you know, what we think of as established four year colleges are extremely slow to change and adapt. You know, create new programs, you know, staff them, and, you know, all of this stuff, but community colleges really have the benefit of a lot of agility and a little less sort of centralization in in that they can, you know, try out new educational techniques.
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And, you know, really, really amazing things are happening on community college campuses.
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That is so true.
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Yeah, they are. They are used to having to change and adapt. If you look at the history, they've had to do that so many times that, yeah, I think they're they're great at sort of dealing with what the community needs in that moment.
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Exactly. All right. Well, I've taken up so much of your time, and thank you so much for it. But what do you want to leave the listeners with here?
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Yeah, I just want everybody to realize that it is always possible to transfer.
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It's a matter of how much time and money you want to spend to get to your ideal university.
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But it's never too late. It's never impossible. There's always a way everything can be figured out. So if you're out there thinking, I feel stuck, I don't like my university, or maybe even I can't go to college because I can't afford it, my only option is a two year, which nobody likes, you know, or maybe you're in your 50s and you've got an empty nest and you think you want to go back to college, but, oh my my credits probably expired. No, there is a way forward. My book tries to highlight students in all of those kinds of situations and talk about how they move forward. There is always a way to find the degree that you want. Find a university that supports students like you and wants to help you reach your goals. Always possible, never too late. That's those are my parting words.
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I love it. I love it. Okay, and where can we get the book?
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Yes, it is available throughout the US, at bookstores. It's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble bookshop.org, and comes out August 26 but there's also an audio book version coming shortly after, so mid September, you should also be able to access the audiobook version on Audible and libro and other audiobook services.
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Fantastic. Okay, Jamie, thank you so much for all of your work, supporting transfer students and writing this book and for coming and sharing it with us.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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All right. So as Jamie said, please pick up a copy of this book if it will help you someone you know, or a student of yours, if you have educators in your life, it's a great read. She's a great writer, and it is chock full of amazing information that I think is really, really helpful. So I do hope that you check that out and thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time. Thanks, everybody.
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80% of students who enter a community college say they want to transfer and get a bachelor's degree, but only 16% actually do. And that was shocking to me that that so many students sort of get lost along the way, aren't able to finish their their goals, and I think it is because it's a complicated process, if you don't know all the ins and outs.
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Hi folks. Welcome back to the podcast. Here we are right at the precipice of the start of the school year, and I know parents are really stressed, and I know educators are also really stressed getting ready to welcome their students back to their campus and start this whole process all over again. Well, today's guest is a repeat guest, I'm really thrilled to have her back, Jamie Smith, who has become a great friend of mine and someone I really, really respect, not only for her like vast amount of knowledge about literally everything, but also for her sense of integrity and values. I just think we really get along well. And the exciting news is that Jamie has a book out. The book that so many people need.
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It is a comprehensive guide to college transfer, and it addresses lots of different reasons people might transfer, and lots of different types of students that transfer. So you'll hear us at the beginning of our conversation, talking about the pathway from a community college, a two year college to a four year college.
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But Jamie's book also covers what happens if you want to transfer from one four years college to another four year college. If maybe you started college and then you took a break and you worked for a while and you want to go back and finish your degree. She talks about the situation for military veterans and all sorts of really nuanced things, and it is very hard to get this information.
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And so this book is such a great reference guide for so many people who really need it. I'll let the rest of the interview speak for itself. Let's go to it so Jamie, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. I'm so excited to have you back, to have you back at this time of year, and to be able to talk about your new book, which was really kind of one of the main reasons we started becoming close, because we were thinking about writing books at the same time. And I'm so excited to see your ideas come to fruition.
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I've seen the book, I've read the book. I'm just so thrilled about it. So thank you, and welcome back to the podcast.
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Yes, thank you. I'm so happy to be back, and I was so happy to go through a lot of this process with you. I t was, it was fun to have an accountability buddy to get through the process of actually writing this book.
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Right, right? And I appreciate the shout out that you put for me in your book?
00:02:58.460 --> 00:03:23.344
Yes. Oh, great. Well, okay, let's, let's zoom out wide a little bit before we go into the book. So you are an independent educational consultant, and you do a bunch of other things, you know, you teach and mentor and all sorts of great, great things. How did the work around transfer admissions start to become one of your niches.
00:03:23.764 --> 00:03:48.169
Yes. So I've been in education for a long time, and I've always loved the sort of accessibility of Transfer Pathways, this idea that, you know, anybody could start with just a few classes at a community college, or, you know, if they started a degree and then didn't finish it. I love this idea that it was never too late to move on and get your bachelor's and go from there.
00:03:44.569 --> 00:03:59.314
And then when my own daughter was approaching College, we were homeschooling and doing community college as like high school for homeschoolers was really common, so she did that, and she just loved it so much.
00:03:59.314 --> 00:04:15.995
She's like, why would I go through the stress of a first year application, when there is this very clear transfer pathway from my excellent community college to a four year in my state? And that made so much sense to me. So we went through that process, and I learned a lot going through that with her.
00:04:15.995 --> 00:05:10.189
It's been like 10 years now, which is shocking, and I realized that it was a very clear system. If you knew where the information was, if you knew where to find the details, and if you didn't know where those details were or how to apply them, it would be really difficult to transfer. So it worked out beautifully for my daughter, because she had me behind the scenes, but it would not be as easy for everybody else, and I started doing more research and finding out about the statistics, where 80% of students who enter a community college say they want to transfer and get a bachelor's degree, but only 16% actually do. And that was shocking to me that so many students. Of get lost along the way, aren't able to finish their their goals, and I think it is because it's a complicated process, if you don't know all the ins and outs.
00:05:10.189 --> 00:06:07.579
And so that was really when I got into things, and I ended up getting a postmaster certificate and transfer leadership and practice from the University of North Georgia in collaboration with the National Institute for the Study of transfer students, they run a great post masters program for classes where I was able to dig into the history of transfer and, you know, all the the good, the bad and the ugly of it. And it was just really eye opening. And made me realize that there is a huge need for more information on this subject and just talking about it so that it can be de stigmatized. A third of all students transfer at least once on their way to a degree, and yet we don't really talk about it that much. So I think we need to just bring it into conversations more. Because the more I talk about it, the more I find people who are like, Oh yeah, I transferred. My kid transferred. My sister transferred. You know, everybody knows a transfer, but nobody is really just talking about it normally, as if it's part of the college process.
00:06:07.939 --> 00:06:16.745
Yeah, and you touched on so many really eye opening little tidbits there, that 80% to 16% differential.
00:06:18.004 --> 00:06:26.644
And I know that when we talk about transfer. We're talking about a couple of different things. So can you kind of give us that definition to start?
00:06:26.944 --> 00:07:31.339
Yeah. So a lot of my focus initially, it was on the community college to university transfer pathway, kind of a planned pathway, the idea that you would start at a community college to save money or to rebuild your academic transcript if high school wasn't great for you. You know, that was sort of my original focus, but since then, I've expanded, and I've looked more at four year to four year transfers, especially after covid. There were so many students who kind of blindly chose a college because they weren't able to go out and do traditional tours. So they were often showing up on a campus they'd never seen before, and then realized it wasn't the right fit. So I started seeing more of those four year to four year transfers. There are also students who maybe struggle at their first four year and it's not that they don't like it, but they've, you know, ended up with some lower grade, they may end up on academic suspension, and then they're looking for a way to regroup and get back into university, and maybe they want to start fresh somewhere else.
00:07:27.620 --> 00:07:34.939
Then they're also like the the older adults re entry students.
00:07:31.339 --> 00:07:51.725
There's a statistic keeps floating around, something like 40 million Americans have some college credits, but no degree, no credential. So there are all of those students as well who are wondering if their credits are still valid, if they can transfer them into a program and complete a degree. And the answer is yes, you just have to find the right program.
00:07:52.264 --> 00:08:19.850
Yeah, that's great. So you know, as you mentioned, if you know the process or who to ask for the information? You know, the steps that you have to take. It's a pretty What would I say established pathway, right? Yes, but yeah. What is the barrier to getting that information? Why is it so complicated? Where do people go for transfer information?
00:08:20.329 --> 00:08:42.154
Yeah. So it depends on if you're a four year to four year, or like a two year to four year. The two year to four year pathways are very well established in many states, but it really requires the students to find an advisor, make appointments, go check in with them and create a plan, and the advisors are often overloaded.
00:08:38.975 --> 00:09:59.990
They don't have enough appointments to serve all the students they need to serve, and some students aren't doing that work of reaching out. There's a another statistic that came out recently, that 48% of students on on a transfer pathway in community college never visit their advisor. And you really can't do it alone. You need some sort of support, whether you're going to visit your community college advisor or talk to an IEC or use a book or a guide, or, you know, do a class. Some community colleges have classes walking you through these things. You know, you need something you you really can't just wing it. Every state is different, and very often the agreements with individual universities are different, and even within whole systems like this is some I sent my daughter through was the California system. And even there, going from one community college and trying to fulfill the requirements for multiple campuses in the University of California system, even that is challenging, because each UC can set some of their own standards, and I know California is really working on trying to streamline that and make it simpler, but for the time being, you could be preparing to be a bio major at one UC campus and not meet the requirements to transfer in the same major to a different UC.
00:09:59.990 --> 00:10:51.245
Campus. So trying to, like, cover all your bases and keep different options open can be really challenging for those community college students, four year to four year. It's kind of the Wild West universities can make whatever rules they want about minimum requirements, maximum units, how credits will or won't transfer. So some students think, Oh, I'm just applying for transfer, like I'm applying for first year. And they don't realize that their credits might not transfer. They can be at a an established, accredited, respectable university, but if the classes they've taken don't align directly with classes at the new university, they may find themselves losing a lot of credits and falling, you know, a semester, a year or more behind in their degree plan. So that's kind of where we lose students.
00:10:48.365 --> 00:11:02.284
It's the lack of information or realizing that they're they've been set back multiple semesters and are going to have to spend more time and money to get a degree. That's when students get disheartened and drop out, and I can't blame them, really.
00:11:02.345 --> 00:11:20.090
Yeah, I'm just imagining somebody who's worked so hard to get their associates, or even get into whatever four year college they're in, and then going through all the work to transfer and then realizing what a setback it is, or, you know, other kinds of roadblocks.
00:11:17.269 --> 00:11:20.090
It's really disheartening.
00:11:20.090 --> 00:11:32.029
Because, yes, you know, getting this education is not easy to begin with. It's not roadblocks.
00:11:24.769 --> 00:11:41.794
So it sounds like, especially for those who may want to start with Community College to your college and then transfer to a four year it may be important to do some prior planning
00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:41.029
Absolutely.
00:11:41.029 --> 00:11:41.149
before you even start.
00:11:41.149 --> 00:11:41.210
Yes, absolutely.
00:11:41.210 --> 00:11:43.220
Talk about that a little bit.
00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:51.500
Yeah. So that's definitely something I go over in the book, you know, trying to think ahead and make a plan.
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And, you know, some students get to the community college and it just feels like you know, you're a kid in the candy store looking at the catalog. Are all these fun classes you could take all these different topics that you didn't have access to in high school, and now you do, and it's really exciting, but you have to be strategic about the classes you're taking. And if you know your major, you need to be looking at the prerequisites. If you don't know your major, then you need to be looking at those general education or breadth requirements. Definitely take Math and English early on. Get those out of the way, because just about every university wants to see that you've done math and English before you transfer. And then find some of those, like, you know, 101, type intro classes that would serve as the foundation in different majors. Usually you can fulfill Gen Ed requirements with those.
00:12:35.990 --> 00:13:19.759
But also then be dabbling in different majors and finding out what you enjoy, you also have to look at classes that have prerequisites. Very often there are sequences, you know, we think of math, yes, you have to go in order and take calc one before Calc Two. But you may also have that with chemistry and physics and with physics, you may also have a math prerequisite. In addition to physics one has to come before physics two. And when you, when you look at that all laid out, you may find that if you don't start that math class your very first semester, and then also plan on, like doing summers, you may not have a way to finish the entire physics sequence in that two years. If you're hoping for a two plus two plan, you know.
00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:27.500
Right. And is there any prior planning that you think four year to four year students need to be doing?
00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:56.044
It's a little bit harder because you don't have those established pathways. You know, there aren't a lot of these, like, you know, checklists of classes that you should take as a transfer student to be prepared for your next step. But a lot of the same advice applies. Make sure you've done your colleges English Freshman Composition requirement. Make sure that you've either, you know, finished an AP math in high school, or you've done a math class at your current college.
00:13:52.325 --> 00:14:50.899
Check into foreign language requirements. You know, some schools need you to have a second language, and the number of semesters may vary. And then where I see the biggest problems in four year to four year is when students are taking really sort of obscure classes, more niche classes that are unusual if you stick with more of those introductory, you know, 101, type classes, the sort of classic introductions to different areas, those are more likely to transfer than the very unique classes that probably sound really fun, but if your accepting university doesn't have a class like that, it's probably not going to transfer, no matter how awesome it was. So when you get to the point at your first university where you think, I don't think I want to be here, I think I want to transfer somewhere else, then you want to be thinking about taking those core classes more than the unique niche classes that your university might offer. You can also check tools like transferology.
00:14:50.899 --> 00:15:18.544
Transferology.com allows you to, sort of like, upload your your classes and then search for schools that have previously accepted those classes for transfer and. Some schools have their own transfer equivalency databases, and if you just search for the name of the university with transfer equivalency database, you can find a list they've taken transfer students from your school before. You'll see what classes have already transferred and know that those are pretty much a sure thing outside of that list, it's more of a gamble.
00:15:19.085 --> 00:15:37.789
Okay, so let's reorient to the book. Now I get that there's this just gap in information. There's so many nuances depending on why you're transferring, where you're transferring, maybe other aspects of the particular student, and there's no single repository of this information.
00:15:37.789 --> 00:15:41.750
So I think your book is such a great reference and guidebook.
00:15:41.990 --> 00:15:53.870
And I know it's like, you know, set up step by step, and there's so many helpful resources in it, too. But talk to me a little bit about really who the book is for, who's going to get the most out of this book.
00:15:53.870 --> 00:17:40.535
Yeah, thank you. I did try to cover everything I possibly could, which was a tall order because there are so many nuances and different kinds of transfer students, but it was really important to me to make sure that there was information in there for every possible transfer situation, and I wanted every transfer student to really feel seen in it. So I included a lot of case studies of different kinds of transfer students that I've worked with, so that everybody who reads this could potentially see themselves in that position, becoming a successful transfer student. And it meant that I had to condense a lot of information to make sure that I had relevant details for those planned transfer from community college students, as well as the sort of unplanned, spontaneous four year to four year transfer. And also make it relevant to older re entry students, military veterans who come out with, you know the joint services transcript, and you know they may be transfer students at some schools and not at others, because they have a unique transcript that has some credit recommendations, but they may or may not have taken college classes, so they're in sort of a special sort of limbo zone. So I tried to touch on all the bases and where there were real specifics. I tried to get a lot of resources so that you've got websites to go to if you're, for example, a military vet or you're an athlete, and need to think about the transfer portal, you know? So I really walk you through everything. If you're a two year to four year or four year to four year, kind of a standard sort of transfer situation, if you've got a specialty situation, I tried to make sure that there were plenty of resources so that you could get additional details and support.
00:17:41.075 --> 00:17:49.474
That's great. And what would you say the timeline is, I know the book is coming out this month. Is that because this is when people should really start making these plans?
00:17:50.315 --> 00:19:11.494
You know, that was a great conversation that I had with my publisher. When Should this come out? So the book comes out August 26 2025 if you're you're watching this at another time, or listening to this at a different time, and we were trying to think, when is the most valuable time to put it out there? And it's hard to say, because transfers can happen at any time. But we thought, you know, sort of the back to school time, the college application time, maybe it was a good time to be thinking about transfer as well. In some places, your transfer applications for fall will happen almost a year in advance, and your applications due in November or the following September. In other cases, transfers are handled much later, and you might not apply until March for transfer that September. So it really does depend, and that's actually one of the challenges is because there are these very different deadlines. Sometimes you are waiting on decisions from one university while you're still applying to others, and you may have a deposit deadline at one but you don't even have a decision from another. And so there can be a lot of juggling there too. It's just another example of how transfer is really not standardized, and first year has a lot more sort of commonalities, I guess, in like, you know, decision day, May 1, you know, we have some some expectations. And transfer is kind of the Wild West.
00:19:12.095 --> 00:19:27.559
I gotta tell you, Jamie, I mean, I think the Wild West is maybe the right term to use here, but it's like a labyrinth. It is. Every question if you answer, I'm like, Oh, my God, it goes deeper. What? What are we going to find the way out or the way?
00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:39.980
Yeah, that's, that's why I wanted to write the book. Because I was like, I can't clone myself. I can't guide every student through this personally. So I've got to, I got to get this information out there in an easier to access way.
00:19:40.640 --> 00:20:07.384
Yeah, for real. I think we're all so grateful for doing this and laying it out. I think it will be really helpful for students, but also for people who work with students, yes, right? And whether they're parents or caretakers or other teachers or just mentors in their life, like. To have a place that they can go to to say, Oh, here's the book on transfer, and we'll figure out what your pathway through this.
00:20:07.384 --> 00:20:10.069
Yes, it is a little bit. Choose your own adventure, right?
00:20:10.670 --> 00:20:42.994
It really is. And, you know, I've written it to the students, but it's definitely something that has information that is valuable to anybody supporting the transfer students, and I've even talked to some high school counselors who are interested, because they know that their population is very much headed to a two year college first. And so if they can get those students started on the right track from the very beginning, I think that's going to be really helpful for a whole generation of students starting at community college.
00:20:43.595 --> 00:21:52.430
Absolutely, and with all the changes that we're seeing to student funding and certain policies, I mean, it's just, it's changing all the time. So it's like not even worth talking about a specific change. I think more and more people should be considering the community college to four year pathway. It's going to save them money, it's going to be more flexible. It's, I mean, it's just such a great option. One of the things that you bring up is that there is a stigma here, yes, and I wonder if you can help us understand when a student transfers, what does their diploma look like when they finally graduate? What would an employer see? You know how like, that's beyond the like, peer stigma, I guess, of like, your high school friends are going to four year colleges and you're going to a two year and you may feel some kind of way about that which is totally valid. But again, we're trying to destigmatize this. You know, the other concern that people have is, you know, are people going to know, am I going to be employable? You know, what happens on the other side of college? So talk to us about that for a minute.
00:21:52.359 --> 00:22:45.369
Right? No. And those are valid concerns. And first of all, your diploma is only going to say the college you graduated from, unless you decide to put that information out there, and maybe you do, you know, again, to go back to my own daughter, she's very proud of the associate's degree she earned, and she actually earned it in a different subject area, so she feels like that adds to her resume. So she puts both on her resume. But unless you decide that's something you you want to do, and that enhances your application you don't need to, and they're only going to see that you graduated with a bachelor's degree from this one particular university, and nothing else is really out there or known about you. But also, you know, you do want to think practically about things, and if you're going to be a transfer student, and you want to make sure that you are employable.
00:22:42.369 --> 00:23:31.240
You know, you have to be looking at work experience options, internships, those kinds of experiences. And you know, those are typically the things that you would do in a junior and senior year. So if you're thinking two plus two transfer, you know you're there at the four year for those experiences, but you have to be prepared to hit the ground running. You've got to be like, you know, that summer before you even go to campus for your junior year, you've got to be doing the research on the Career Center and the internship options, and you've got to be at office hours with your professors on day one, getting to know them, so that you can make sure you have those same internship and research opportunities that students who've been there from first year will have. You know, it's definitely possible to do, but you can't, you can't dawdle. You got to get on it, you know.
00:23:32.980 --> 00:23:44.859
Right. I mean, I know one of the challenges here is, unless you're doing the two year to four year route, you may not know that you are going to transfer. So true. So, yeah, I think just keeping an open mind about it, I think.
00:23:44.980 --> 00:25:02.740
Yes. Yeah. You know, the stigma, as far as, like, you know what your peers think and and fearing what employers think, you know, I think that the stigma is diminishing. People are starting to realize that it is a very valid option to go to community college first, and it is a practical financial choice that shouldn't be discriminated against. You know, I think we're getting to the point where we realize that is a completely valid option to, you know, save half the cost of tuition, basically. But also, we have to look at the history of community college and realize that, you know, part of their origin story was that they were designed to be sort of a lesser option, a way to prevent the the riffraff from getting into the elite four year universities. You know, there were some stipulations back 100 150 years ago that said, you know, you only get federal funding if you're open to everyone and those universities that didn't want to accept women and people of color and lower income students, working class students, they had to devise, you know, a separate track, basically, for those students. And so when you think about how community colleges were actually invented as these lesser institutions. Options.
00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:24.025
It's easy to see how that stigma remains, but it's just not true anymore. Very often, your professor at the community college also teaches a class at the four year university down the road. You know, there aren't a lot of full time teachers anymore, and so people are stringing together part time options, and they may include community college and four year universities, and you can get the same education but pay a lot less at the two year.
00:25:25.105 --> 00:26:00.549
And, you know, I'll add a plug too, that I see the most innovative things happening in education on community college campuses. You know, our you know, what we think of as established four year colleges are extremely slow to change and adapt. You know, create new programs, you know, staff them, and, you know, all of this stuff, but community colleges really have the benefit of a lot of agility and a little less sort of centralization in in that they can, you know, try out new educational techniques.
00:25:57.309 --> 00:26:03.250
And, you know, really, really amazing things are happening on community college campuses.
00:26:03.250 --> 00:26:06.295
That is so true.
00:26:03.250 --> 00:26:17.035
Yeah, they are. They are used to having to change and adapt. If you look at the history, they've had to do that so many times that, yeah, I think they're they're great at sort of dealing with what the community needs in that moment.
00:26:17.394 --> 00:26:24.295
Exactly. All right. Well, I've taken up so much of your time, and thank you so much for it. But what do you want to leave the listeners with here?
00:26:25.315 --> 00:26:32.799
Yeah, I just want everybody to realize that it is always possible to transfer.
00:26:28.434 --> 00:26:37.180
It's a matter of how much time and money you want to spend to get to your ideal university.
00:26:37.420 --> 00:27:22.390
But it's never too late. It's never impossible. There's always a way everything can be figured out. So if you're out there thinking, I feel stuck, I don't like my university, or maybe even I can't go to college because I can't afford it, my only option is a two year, which nobody likes, you know, or maybe you're in your 50s and you've got an empty nest and you think you want to go back to college, but, oh my my credits probably expired. No, there is a way forward. My book tries to highlight students in all of those kinds of situations and talk about how they move forward. There is always a way to find the degree that you want. Find a university that supports students like you and wants to help you reach your goals. Always possible, never too late. That's those are my parting words.
00:27:22.390 --> 00:27:24.910
I love it. I love it. Okay, and where can we get the book?
00:27:25.329 --> 00:27:46.855
Yes, it is available throughout the US, at bookstores. It's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble bookshop.org, and comes out August 26 but there's also an audio book version coming shortly after, so mid September, you should also be able to access the audiobook version on Audible and libro and other audiobook services.
00:27:46.855 --> 00:27:55.375
Fantastic. Okay, Jamie, thank you so much for all of your work, supporting transfer students and writing this book and for coming and sharing it with us.
00:27:55.734 --> 00:27:57.474
Thank you so much for having me.
00:27:59.634 --> 00:28:22.359
All right. So as Jamie said, please pick up a copy of this book if it will help you someone you know, or a student of yours, if you have educators in your life, it's a great read. She's a great writer, and it is chock full of amazing information that I think is really, really helpful. So I do hope that you check that out and thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time. Thanks, everybody.
