S1|Ep102 Human Judgment Under Algorithmic Pressure in the Age of AI

WEBVTT
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.959
Hello and welcome to Digital Transformation and AI for Humans with your host Amy.
00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:12.880
In this podcast, we'll delve into how technology intersects with leadership, innovation, and most importantly, the human spirit.
00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:24.800
Each episode features visionary leaders who understand that at the heart of success is the human touch, nurturing a winning mindset, fostering emotional intelligence, and building resilient teams.
00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:35.840
SEI systems increasingly shape decisions about hiring leadership, performance, and risk, something subtle but profound is happening beneath the surface.
00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:44.640
Power shifting, responsibility is diffusing, and human judgment is quietly being placed under algorithmic pressure.
00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:58.560
Today's conversation explores what happens when leadership decisions are no longer made only by people, but by systems built on assumptions about human behavior, performance, and potential.
00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:01.280
My amazing guest today is Jason P.
00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:03.520
Carroll from Austin, Texas.
00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:17.760
As a founder and principal behavioral scientist at Active Index, Jason works at the intersection of behavioral science leadership, psychology, and AI-enabled decision systems.
00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:32.239
His focus is not on automating decisions, but on understanding how human beliefs, incentives, and blind spots get encoded into models and scaled across organizations.
00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:48.799
Jason has led and advised organizations through high growth phases, acquisitions, and complex transformations, with a deep focus on how behavior changes when power increases and accountability becomes less visible.
00:01:49.439 --> 00:02:06.319
In this episode, we unpack behavioral risk in AI-driven decisions, how authority quietly shifts when algorithms are introduced, and what leaders often underestimate about their responsibility when judgment is shared with machines.
00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:18.960
This is a conversation for leaders, founders, board members, and investors who understand that in the age of AI, the most critical risk is not technical, it is human.
00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:20.800
Welcome, Jason.
00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:23.919
I'm so happy to have you here in the studio today.
00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:25.439
Yeah, thank you for having me.
00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:26.719
I appreciate it.
00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:33.280
Let's start the conversation and transform not just our technologies, but our ways of thinking and leading.
00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:38.479
If you are interested in connecting or collaborating, you can find more information in the description.
00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:42.000
And don't forget to subscribe for more powerful episodes.
00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:59.919
And if you are a leader, business owner, or investor ready to adapt, thrive, and lead with clarity, purpose, and wisdom in the era of AI, I'd love to invite you to learn more about AI Game Changers, a global elite tribe for visionary trailblazers and change makers shaping the future.
00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:03.280
You can apply at AIGamechangers.club.
00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:10.319
Jason, to start with, I would love to hear more about yourself, about your journey, about your story.
00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:14.800
Could you share with us your story, please?
00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:26.400
Yeah, you know, my whole life, including as a child, a theme that continues to surface is just noticing human patterns and behaviors.
00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:32.479
Who I have become and who I am continuing to strive to become is really founded on that.
00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:44.000
I've seen stark differences between the behaviors that I never want to repeat, the kind of person I don't want to be, and then the kind of person that I do want to be.
00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:58.400
And it's like roller coaster life of ups and downs and good and bad that just kind of like being thrown to the sharks has forced me to observe those patterns and make decisions based on them.
00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:01.199
So that that shaped me early on.
00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:14.240
And it really came to a head as I came out of a failed startup into a company that was run at about 20 million revenue in a blue-collar industry.
00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:17.040
And I had seen terrible bad culture.
00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:19.279
I had experienced terrible, bad leadership.
00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:28.639
And then I experienced really incredible leadership and tried my best to implement that good leadership in this company called Champion.
00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:32.560
And it had been stagnant at that 20 million for over a decade.
00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:34.639
I was brought in to shake things up.
00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:36.879
And over the next seven years, we grew to 80.
00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:38.319
So we went from 20 to 80.
00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:42.160
We 4X' after having been stagnant for quite some time.
00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:54.079
And I believe 100% the main catalyst for that growth was treating people with worth and value, distributing power, not exerting control.
00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:59.360
It was about self-awareness, growth, leadership, and culture.
00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:06.000
During that time, I discovered psychometrics for the first time, which is the world I'm in now permanently forevermore.
00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:09.199
And I also got to meet incredible people like Brene Brown.
00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:09.680
So Dr.
00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:12.079
Brene Brown, I got to meet her and be trained by her.
00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:13.199
Hopefully you're familiar.
00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:15.279
Hopefully your listeners and watchers are familiar.
00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:18.560
If not, they should just turn this off and go watch Brene Brown for a while.
00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:21.040
But those are the kinds of things that really shaped me.
00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:41.839
And now I've been able to bring all of that to head with this behavioral science meets AI and bringing this idea of deep personal understanding, self-awareness, and awareness of others to the masses with like validated science and the most easy to understand AI and chat and all that stuff.
00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:46.480
It's like it's like having a behavior psychologist in your pocket, a human cheat sheet.
00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:52.959
And so it's really enhancing leadership and how we approach the human aspect of business.
00:05:53.120 --> 00:06:00.480
And I'm proud to say that I hear stories nearly every day of not just like businesses improving, but lives being changed.
00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:02.240
And so I love what I do.
00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:03.519
I'm excited to talk about it.
00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.319
And hopefully it doesn't come across as just one big plug.
00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:11.839
And hopefully you hear the passion behind what I'm doing here as we continue to chat.
00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:18.480
Thank you so much for sharing, because this is like balm on my soul.
00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:20.800
It's also very close to my heart.
00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:24.959
I'm very interested in behavior and psychology.
00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:31.360
And of course, it is crucial in order to become a better leader to understand all those parts.
00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:38.560
I'm sure many of our listeners and viewers like Brunette Brown as much as I do.
00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:53.279
And it is even more interesting to hear some more through our conversation from you about those aspects and those strengths you are sharing through your solution.
00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:58.959
But it is amazing that you are changing real lives on a daily basis.
00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:10.000
And given that the burnout rate is just going through the roof, and there is no solution inside on the high level.
00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:38.079
So this is exactly something that can be applied to create a better environment, to adjust the culture, so that those who are really there to create something amazing altogether, they can also enjoy the time they invest and create the life which is both easier and more meaningful and fulfilled in a way.
00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:43.680
So I really admire what you are doing, and I'm so happy that we have this conversation today.
00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:44.959
Thanks, me too.
00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:52.959
AI is rapidly becoming embedded in hiring, leadership assessment, and performance prediction.
00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:57.839
How does this shift redistribute power inside organizations?
00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:04.319
And what new responsibilities do leaders often underestimate or fail to recognize?
00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:07.120
In that question, you said redistribute power.
00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:13.040
And I think that's a significant aspect of this whole conversation.
00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:25.839
That not everybody wants or needs or is driven to influence outcomes, but those who are get to choose one of two routes: power or control.
00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:35.840
And those who seek power so that they can control don't actually have power in the end because they don't have it's not anchored in character.
00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:39.679
They don't have trust and belief and loyalty.
00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:49.279
And I I know this is kind of a weird way to set this up, but I think about control as a scarce resource mindset that like I have to hold on to this.
00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:51.279
Power, though, is an infinite source.
00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:53.440
It expands when it's shared.
00:08:54.399 --> 00:09:16.720
And with that in mind, the power of AI in our hands as leaders with character that want to expand power, it's an opportunity like we've never had before to give resources away to all of our employees in a manner that it's completely unprecedented.
00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:24.320
The information, the decision-making power, I mean, just silly things like, you know, what would my boss do in this situation?
00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:34.000
You know, asking AI, and then it, you know, and if it knows those dynamics, then wow, I just got to make a decision without having to bother my boss.
00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:52.799
So that's one little example, but there's just infinite examples of how we can put this power into other people's hands and let that really expand influence and better outcomes, again, in just profound ways that we've never seen before.
00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:54.799
That might have been a little too high-level and vague.
00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:57.919
Let me know if you want me to get a little more honed in.
00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:12.320
I wonder also on the other side of the coin, it might be considered as an intrusion into the inner world and uh into the core of personality.
00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:31.919
So, how do you find that balance where you can go ahead and uh take your decisions without consulting with your boss, but at the same time, you don't feel like if you are manipulated and completely opened and can't have anything for yourself.
00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:33.200
Yeah, it's interesting.
00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:40.960
You know, so the basis of what we do at uh at the at my company now, Active Index, is it starts with a behavioral assessment.
00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:47.279
Now, this isn't some like hour-long note, it's like 10, 12 minutes, but it's still eerily accurate.
00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:52.240
And it trains our AI on what's driving and motivating people.
00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:53.279
Like what do they need?
00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:54.799
Because we all have different needs.
00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:56.559
And that can feel intrusive.
00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:06.080
Even some of the most skeptical prospects come in and we have a conversation, and I show them you know their results through the lens of AI interpreting it.
00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.679
And they're like, okay, I went from skeptical to a little creeped out.
00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:21.600
And you know, so I think we have to, you know you you also asked you like the new responsibilities, right, that that we maybe fail to recognize sometimes.
00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:28.960
But AI in general, with even without our behavioral stuff, AI gives us access that we've never had before.
00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:44.960
And then if I hone in on what we're doing, behavioral analysis, it gives us that human cheat sheet that could be leveraged for really good things, or it could be leveraged to manipulate and control.
00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:48.799
Now that's beyond anything I can control with my clients.
00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:55.919
I can just, you know, hope and train that, you know, as we're bringing people into this world that they're wielding it responsibly.
00:11:56.080 --> 00:12:01.600
We do have protections in place, but you know, ultimately the responsibility does come down to the leader.
00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:10.720
You know, if if we are operating from that scarcity mindset, a control mindset, then we're gonna wield this irresponsibly.
00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:24.480
If we have the mentality of elevating the human experience, leaning into values, and expanding power, then you know, I think that all of this unlocks our ability to do that in really unique ways.
00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:30.080
And so really it's just whose hands does this land in, and it's up to them to use it the right way.
00:12:30.720 --> 00:13:02.320
I agree with your conclusion because in one of my keynotes, the last slide is exactly about that personal responsibility where we, each and one of us leaders, no matter what we are doing and where we are working, we need to decide which side we are on and act accordingly and take our decisions accordingly as well, and feel our personal responsibility.
00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:15.440
We are not just a part of this machinery, but we are in charge for how this story is going to develop and which side we want to belong to.
00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:16.159
Yeah.
00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:30.879
Let's take a step back because I would like to take first things first and come back to your exciting story of a great success where the company was stagnating for 10 years.
00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:48.240
So before founding Active Index, you led a transformation where business scaled from 20 million to 80 million, resulting in a successful acquisition with a strong focus on people strategy, culture, sales, growth, and technology implementation.
00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:56.480
I wonder what were the most significant behavioral risks you had to manage during that scaling phase?
00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:02.080
And how did leadership responsibility change as power and complexity increased?
00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:06.000
Yeah, you know, that so the company was actually 33 years old when I joined.
00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:07.919
So it had been there for quite some time.
00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:12.399
And there were people in positions that had been there for decades.
00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:16.240
And so the first big behavioral risk was me.
00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.000
It was this wild card who's coming in.
00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:34.320
And, you know, a lot of ways I was being viewed as this, you know, guy who's jumping out of the plane with no parachute in a very operations-heavy business where execution and process and all those things really matter.
00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:39.600
And I think they realized really quick that I'm allergic to process.
00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:41.840
I want something new.
00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:44.639
I want to try to push the envelope.
00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:48.000
So, so honestly, I was the biggest behavioral risk at first.
00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:54.080
I had to keep taking a step back, making sure I didn't go nuclear and just, you know, shake everything up for the sake of change.
00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:55.679
And I had to earn trust.
00:14:55.840 --> 00:15:04.240
And that took quite some time, probably the first two and a half, three years was establishing trust before we could really make big, bold moves.
00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:11.279
And then it became understanding the behavioral differences between myself and others.
00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:16.480
You know, I would say that my head of ops was my absolute opposite.
00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:19.919
Where I was big picture, risk tolerant.
00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:22.639
He was detail-focused, risk averse.
00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:26.879
Or I was, let's try new things and see what might stick.
00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:30.799
He was, let's do what we've always done that we know works.
00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:34.320
I was, hey, my pedals on the floor, going 100 miles an hour.
00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:37.600
He was, hey, man, this is a marathon, not a sprint.
00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:42.159
You know, and the list goes on and on of just being total opposites.
00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:51.360
And that gap was so big between the two of us that it took so much intentionality and effort to bridge that gap.
00:15:51.519 --> 00:16:00.799
And I actually made some mistakes in leadership of like expecting him to bridge that gap more than what he was really capable of.
00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:17.840
And so, you know, I realized this is my responsibility as the leader to bridge that gap and ended up as a result making some big personnel decisions, bringing some people in who could help bridge that gap, and instead of me putting expectations on folks that were just way outside the realm of how they were wired.
00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:20.399
And so, really, that was the leadership.
00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:28.879
It was how do we figure out what these gaps are and you know what these strengths are and play to those strengths and overcome these gaps.
00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:29.200
Yeah.
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:31.200
So hope that answers the question there.
00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:32.879
Yes, definitely.
00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:36.080
And it's a very interesting story.
00:16:36.399 --> 00:17:03.840
And I think the part about the gaps, first you can think that it could be potentially a dream team because the two of you basically incorporated all the extremities of what is needed to cover whole the range, but at the same time, practically it's close to impossible to move forward without creating that dissonance and breaking something along the way.
00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:13.359
So there is no sustainable way or virtually no way to move forward sustainably until you close that gap.
00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:39.440
So your personal leadership experience is exactly something so valuable because it is increasingly more important to be flexible enough and be ready to adapt to bring on board new types of profiles and cover the gaps in case if it's needed, in order to create that success.
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:41.359
Very interesting.
00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:47.279
And from here, I would like to look a few years ahead.
00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:55.680
And from the story I know by now, you work on the premise that most business problems are people problems.
00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:07.839
As AI systems increasingly shape decisions at scale, where do you see the greatest behavioral risk to human judgment emerging over the next three to five years?
00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:13.119
You know what's interesting is I don't think AI changes the biggest behavioral risk.
00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:19.440
I think that, like you said, I do believe most business problems are people problems.
00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:26.160
And I think the biggest risk is assuming that other people's perspective is like our own.
00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:29.759
And I think that's always been one of the biggest risks.
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:34.880
It was, it was mine with my director of ops, you know, to go back to the example.
00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:40.160
Like, you know, how does this person not see five years ahead?
00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:43.039
How does this person not understand we have to take risks?
00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:50.400
He's looking at me, going, How does this guy not understand that you know change for the sake of change is gonna sink us?
00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:51.440
How does he not get it?
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:53.039
What we're doing right now works.
00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:55.519
And if we break it, things might crumble, right?
00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:02.000
And so we each had our own perspective and couldn't even fathom the other person's perspective.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:07.680
And AI actually can help with that.
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:09.359
In fact, I mean, it does.
00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:13.359
That's our clients, one of the big things they use it for, but that's not really innate.
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:15.680
Like we have to train that, we had to build tools around that.
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:21.839
So AI, like just Chat GPT or Claude or Gemini by itself is not gonna change that.
00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:26.000
And I don't think it's gonna introduce necessarily new risks or solve that risk.
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:36.880
I think that we're gonna continue to lack perspective taking, and it's going to cause friction and butting heads and continued business problems.
00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:47.119
At least it's not going to change to the better potentially, but it might introduce new problems.
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:49.920
But it might also bring some new solutions.
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:51.039
Let's see how it goes.
00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:51.839
Very interesting.
00:19:52.160 --> 00:20:10.240
Well, it that's in the work I do, because we're measuring these behavioral drives, it's some of the biggest light bulb moments are when we talk about certain traits with, especially with the CEOs, where I say, like, hey man, more than half of your employees want to be told what to do.
00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.559
Not in a way that strips their autonomy, right?
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:15.519
Not micromanaging, but they want clear direction.
00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:22.240
They want you to actually give them marching orders and paint what done looks like, what good looks like.
00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:24.640
And they're just sitting there going, what?
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:27.839
Why would anyone want to be told what to do?
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:31.839
It's like that's like that's like the first trait we hit on during training.
00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:34.000
And it's like a big light bulb moment.
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:36.400
And we've only hit one out of eight.
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:44.799
And so these light bulb moments keep happening of, oh, oh my gosh, people are experiencing the world that differently than me.
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:50.160
And so getting that understanding from the science piece is the first step.
00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:57.359
And then we get to take that learning into our AI that's been trained on all of the these traits and knows everybody's scores, et cetera.
00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:00.079
Uh, and you don't have to even guess anymore.
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:05.759
I could say, you know, I could type into ARIA, why is Emmy perceiving this this way?
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:08.880
And it would tell me because it would know your profile.
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:23.119
So AI absolutely can overcome these risks in really accurate, eerily accurate ways, but it just has you have to be intentional to pursue AI in that way.
00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:26.240
This is very interesting.
00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:29.039
And intentional, that's the key word.
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:32.880
No matter what you are doing, intention is crucial.
00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:42.000
Jason, as AI adoption accelerates, many leadership and performance assumptions are simply automated and scaled.
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:45.279
Let's dive a little bit deeper into risks.
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:56.480
Which outdated beliefs about people, individual potential, control, and performance create the highest risk when embedded into AI driven systems?
00:21:58.079 --> 00:21:59.119
That's a good question.
00:21:59.279 --> 00:21:59.759
I think that.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:11.119
There is an outdated belief about people that just continues to perpetuate that I I think that you just can't trust them to do what's right.
00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:17.920
And there's it's not necessarily one belief, it's more of a mindset about people.
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:26.319
We just tend to make the worst assumptions about people as we go through life.
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:45.759
And I mean I struggle with that for sure and make concerted efforts to not do that, but it's still really difficult when somebody does something outside the realm of what I would say is of good ethics or strategic, you know, makes strategic sense or whatever it is.
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:56.160
When I disagree with something for whatever reason, I lean into negative assumptions that that person's stupid or they have bad character or they just don't get it.
00:22:56.559 --> 00:22:57.759
Yeah, whatever it might be.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.400
And that's not necessarily one outdated belief.
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:09.039
It's it's an outdated mindset that, you know, I know best that my position is the right one, I'm the good guy.
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:11.519
I mean, how many villains have ever thought they were the bad guy?
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:12.240
Zero.
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:16.079
And so I think that we have to recognize that.
00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:26.720
And, you know, the way AI, I think, plays into that is it removes us even more from the human touch.
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:37.039
And, you know, if we're not careful, man, I can go to Chat GBT right now and I could ask it about my political stance, and all it's gonna do is affirm what I believe.
00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:37.519
Right?
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:42.400
It's even gonna give me sources and facts and all those kinds of things to say, Jason, you're right.
00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:58.559
And so if I'm using it that way, and then I go to a person who has different beliefs than me, I've set myself up for human failure because I'm gonna assume that person hasn't done this work or they're only being fed lies.
00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:00.880
They're stupid, they're conspiracy theorists.
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:04.079
Whatever my brain's gonna do, it's gonna do.
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:12.960
And I think that the risk of that is higher when we are conversing with a robot more than we're conversing with a human.
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:14.720
That's a great point.
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:19.680
And that balance is very much impacted today.
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:30.079
So once again, we need to decide how we are going to live our life and how our reality is going to look like.
00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:34.720
Through choosing as well, whom to communicate with.
00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:47.920
And oftentimes I see humans uh lean into choosing an AI-driven company, and that's something that is going to change the future, definitely.
00:24:49.279 --> 00:25:00.640
The FTV index focuses on behavioral drivers that predict how people actually are and how they work rather than how they describe themselves.
00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:03.519
Who is mostly using your assessment?
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:14.640
And why does this behavioral lens to predict success become essential, not optional, as yeah, systems grow more capable and influential?
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:30.400
Can companies succeed without applying these type of assessments and still finding the best possible way to optimize their culture and create internal and external success?
00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:47.839
I love that tack-on question at the end because it's it it plays to an exercise we do in training sometimes, where you know so the the who at first is right now, mostly smaller companies, anywhere from 10 to 100, 200 employees.
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:55.359
I'm usually starting working directly with a CEO and their executive team, and then things kind of go out from there.
00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:59.200
So this is not really an HR tool, but the way I thought it might be.
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:05.920
It's a it's a leadership and a daily strategic tool used by the kind of main people in charge.
00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:07.119
So that's the who.
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:20.400
The why it matters is it's a leg of the stool, so to speak, that we never had access to before when the other legs of the stool are failing us tremendously.
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:23.119
So, what are the legs of the stool of hiring?
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:26.799
Okay, we look at skills, experience, formal education, right?
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:29.039
That's like the big one.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:43.359
Well, statistically, we've actually known since the 80s that skills, experience, and formal education have almost zero predictive quality in terms of is this person going to be successful?
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:51.839
It's never been something that gives us a guarantee or even confidence that somebody's gonna succeed in a role, yet we keep looking at it.
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:55.440
And what's our main way of looking at someone's skills and experience?
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:56.960
The resume, right?
00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:02.559
Well, who wrote just about every resume that exists today?
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:04.400
Chat GPT.
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:07.599
The humans not even writing the resume anymore.
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:11.759
74% of people admit to lying on their resumes.
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:19.039
And so we're looking at these just masterpieces of AI fiction when we're scanning a resume.
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:22.480
We've learned nothing about a person.
00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:26.319
And what we have learned doesn't actually predict success.
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.200
Okay, so that's one leg of this tool completely failing us.
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:31.200
Then there's the interview process.
00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:33.279
This is our best shot.
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:45.039
And it's a great one, but I could ask every one of your listeners, how many times have you seen a great resume, had somebody do really well in an interview, and then they bombed?
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:49.279
And if if we were raising hands, everyone's hand would go up, right?
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:51.599
We see it all the time.
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:53.680
And so what's happening?
00:27:54.000 --> 00:28:00.160
And why are we still on this system where we look at a resume and then we interview and then we hope for the best?
00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:03.200
It's because we don't know that there's any other leg of the stool.
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:05.839
And that's where these behavioral drafts come in.
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:18.559
I can look at a chart, and within a split second, I can tell you what kinds of jobs you would hate and what kind of jobs you would actually really enjoy and thrive in.
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:23.920
You know, there's no amount of money in the world you could pay me to become your accountant.
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:25.759
It would never happen.
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:27.279
And there's a reason for that.
00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:44.079
My internal hardwired drives, motivations, and needs are such that I can't just sit and be in the weeds in the minutiae doing the same thing every single day, not interacting with humans, not influencing outcomes and being in charge of something.
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:45.839
I just I can't.
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:51.759
And yet I could give that description to a whole population of people and they'd be like, yes, I'm yeah, that sounds great.
00:28:51.920 --> 00:29:08.160
Like I don't know anything about accounting, but you're telling me I get to go to work to work and I don't have to interact with other people all the time, and I don't have to be making big critical decisions or like, you know, being assertive and closing a sale, and I get to like have routine and predictability and perfect a task.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:09.920
Yay, where's that job?
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:12.880
You know, so that's why this matters.
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:21.519
We have these internal drives and needs that have been built into us since our preteens, and there's just no escaping it.
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:23.759
I'm not talking about strengths and weaknesses.
00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:28.160
We can hone our strengths, we can get better at our weaknesses.
00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:32.960
These are like what's driving those strengths and weaknesses, and we can't really change that.
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:41.599
And so, if those things are true, if we can measure them, and we can, or I wouldn't be in business, we should look at them because they tell us a lot.
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:59.279
They are far more predictive than any of the thing of the other things that we have at our disposal that we've been using and failing, and having mishire after mishire and bad leadership and promoting the wrong person, all these things that plague our businesses.
00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:02.000
There is a pretty darn good solution.
00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:07.680
It's not it's not a perfect one, but it's a heck of a lot better than anything we've had before.
00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:10.400
Sounds promising.
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:10.880
Yeah.
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:13.359
The last thing you said, like, oh, how did you ask it?
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:21.039
Like, it reminded me of an exercise I do where at the end of it, after like a couple weeks, we'll do a follow-up training.
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:29.920
And I'll present two applicant summaries, essentially, of like, hey, here's how the interview went, here's what their skills experience are all these things, here's here's what we graded.
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:30.880
And they're about equal.
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:33.440
Who do we hire, candidate A or candidate B?
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:35.680
And they go, Well, what are their aptive scores?
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:37.200
Like, no, you don't get those.
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:38.799
How are you gonna make the decision?
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:43.200
And they're like, Well, how do you hire somebody without this data?
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:44.720
I'm like, I don't know.
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:46.559
Two weeks ago, that's what you had to do.
00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:47.440
How did you do it then?
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:54.160
And they just go, I but they can't even fathom going back to not having this data.
00:30:54.319 --> 00:31:00.079
It's like they they're confused, they gaslight themselves of like, did I really ever even hire somebody without this?
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:00.960
How did I do it?
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:06.160
You know, and so that that that's I forget how you asked that final question, but that's how I would answer it.
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:08.319
Exactly.
00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:10.160
That's impressive.
00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:15.279
There is life before and after Jason's active index.
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:19.839
That's really cool, and I can imagine because you can't unsee what you have seen.
00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:28.640
So once you saw this solution, you can't navigate without it anymore because it's not the same at all.
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:30.000
But that's amazing.
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:31.359
There's a warning there though.
00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:33.599
Once you're a client, you're pretty much stuck.
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:35.680
We won't take advantage of that, I promise.
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:43.119
But the majority of our clients are using the AI piece every single day within 24 to 48 hours.
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:50.400
The majority of our clients have AI logs in the system, which means they're using this tool all the time, not just for hiring.
00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:53.279
And so they really can't fathom a world without it.
00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:56.319
It's the before and after aptive index.
00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:58.079
Amazing.
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:06.319
Now I'm curious what are the roles, the types of roles, as example, which are using that data.
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:08.960
And uh what do they find there?
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:14.720
What type of questions they have on a daily basis to be answered by aptive index?
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:18.240
Yeah, I mean, so most roles this applies to.
00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:25.599
There are some that it doesn't, like there are some roles where any variety of kind of somebody's wiring can succeed for different reasons.
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:31.119
Even then, we get to use the AI to say, hey, how do I set this person up for success versus this person?
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:38.400
But most roles have pretty clear, what we'd call behavioral targets that would be considered ideal.
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:51.599
You know, like the hunter salesperson who has to have this aggressive, very directive hunter mentality, close deals quickly, um, always flying over the seat of their pants, right?
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:53.119
You know, high intensity.
00:32:53.200 --> 00:33:04.400
Like that's that is a role that if you take your CPA, your accountants, and say, hey, go do this sales role, they're probably not going to do so hot.
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:06.319
And then vice versa.
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:10.319
So I'd say most roles that this applies to.
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:19.440
So actually, the the assessment is completely non-biased and doesn't, there's no right or wrong, good or bad answers or anything like that.
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:21.599
And so it's already done a lot of the heavy lifting.
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:27.519
And so what AI helps us do is customize that interview for that person in that role.
00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:30.720
So we'll look at, you know, there's behavioral alignments.
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:35.680
This person's, you know, precision attribute lines up with what we wanted.
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:37.920
But how can we confirm that?
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:38.240
Right.
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:41.759
What if the person tried to game the system or, you know, whatever else?
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:46.319
Well, the AI is going to give us questions to validate those alignments.
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:50.079
And let's say there's a mismatch in one of the attributes.
00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:54.000
Let's say my candidate has really high intensity, but I really preferred low.
00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:56.640
This person's interactivation is really high.
00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:58.160
They're just like, let's go, go, go.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:33:59.119
Everything's on fire all the time.
00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:04.799
But I was really hoping for somebody a little more deliberate who can slow down and be a little more paced.
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:18.079
Well, the AI is going to help ask these behavioral descriptive questions that help me know does this person have self-awareness and do they have coping strategies specific to that behavioral misalignment?
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:20.559
When I say misalignment, it doesn't mean that they failed.
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:21.599
It doesn't mean there's something bad.
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:28.159
It just means what would be perfect in an ideal world isn't lining up because it rarely is going to line up 100%.
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:36.960
And so, because of that, how do we find out if it's actually a problem or if it's something that's gonna be fine and maybe even the strength in other ways?
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:38.719
And that's how AI helps.
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:41.199
And it's different, I mean, literally every single time.
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:43.760
So there's not like a specific question.
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:56.880
And what are then the follow-up actions if somebody sees that certain person could behave in a different way or needs a different type of approach?
00:34:57.119 --> 00:35:00.559
So, what is the kind of follow-up applied to them?
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:06.159
Because it sounds a little bit creepy when you can see that game in front of you.
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:30.320
I when I'm listening to you now, you know, I remember those games I was playing as a teenager where we had a set of different potions and the different magic to apply to different role figures in order to change their behavior and enhance their skills and move forward and reach your results.
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:34.559
So, how is it addressed in the business world?
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:36.800
Okay, so you just gave me a fun idea.
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:52.559
I'm uh next time I'm having a conflict with like my clients having a conflict between two people or like a person struggling in a role, I'm gonna do my own AI, like Dungeons and Dragons type of analysis to say, like, what potion should I give this person to help them in this role?
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:55.599
Neither here nor there, but I'm gonna try that and it's gonna be really cool.
00:35:55.840 --> 00:36:01.360
But it kind of is that like we can't change their drive, but we can help them shift their behavior.
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:09.440
So if somebody is struggling with follow-through, like and I'll go back to the sales role because most salespeople struggle with follow-through.
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:13.519
It's it's actually it's it's not a bad thing inherently.
00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:17.039
It's the reason they struggle is actually the reason we hired them in the first place.
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:17.440
Right?
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:24.480
They're they're move forward momentum, you know, onto the next thing, making high pressure decisions.
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:27.119
So they're not thinking about all the details.
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:27.599
Right.
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:32.639
So updating the CRM for them is a waste of time in their own minds.
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:33.039
Right.
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:37.840
Well, if I'm a business and I want analytics and I want to see how things are going, I need them to keep up with CRM.
00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:39.360
Did I expect that they wouldn't?
00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:39.920
Yes.
00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:41.360
Do I need them to anyways?
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:41.840
Yes.
00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:46.639
So we could use that AI and say, what's the new ability we need to develop in this person?
00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:47.920
What's the potion we give them?
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:59.280
Or the, you know, what stat do we need to update or increase so that this person can view their CRM activity as something other than just a burden.
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:06.800
And it'll give us those hacks and ways of coaching those people into those weaknesses.
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:17.119
Now, look, we don't want people in roles where they have to constantly do things that are opposite of their strengths, but every role is going to require us moving outside of our comfort zone.
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:25.360
And so when that does have to occur and we're not very good at it, the behavioral AI can really enhance that and give us those coping strategies.
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:27.199
Incredibly interesting.
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:44.079
And yeah, I see also so many advantages with this because so many of those who probably would just lose their job because of mismatch, yeah, they might keep that job as well because they will be just updated.
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:45.920
So I totally agree.
00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:49.199
More magic to people is going to help.
00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:59.280
And I would yeah, how many times have you had an employee where you're like, gosh, I I really like Carlos, but he just isn't getting it?
00:37:59.440 --> 00:37:59.760
Yeah.
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:07.039
Well, why would I want to get rid of somebody just because there's a mismatch if I do really like that person?
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:11.440
If they're good for culture, they have the right values, they're loyal, I don't have to retrain that person.
00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:15.199
Well, now I can just I can actually shift the expectations of the job.
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:25.440
You know, I can take some of the things off of Carlos's plate that have been dragging him down, give it to somebody who would love to have it, and kind of repurpose Carlos a little bit.
00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:25.920
Right.
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:27.920
And and I wouldn't have known that I needed to do that.
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:35.199
I wouldn't have necessarily seen the disengagement and the stretching of his wiring if I didn't have this data.
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:38.639
And now that I have it, you're right, it's not a bad thing.
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:42.239
It doesn't mean that this person needs to be exited necessarily.
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:55.679
It means I have to make some leadership decisions, and those decisions can benefit both the person and the organization without exiting or making a decision that I don't want to make.
00:38:56.480 --> 00:38:57.199
Exactly.
00:38:57.440 --> 00:39:09.360
I see it creates more freedom for those who are working so that they can really get more comfortable position in their business.
00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:30.480
And for leaders, it brings so much more clarity so that it becomes easier to see in the long-term perspective and also on a daily basis how to upgrade whole the structure so that it works and connects in the best possible way?
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:33.199
I really like this approach.
00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:39.119
Many leaders believe AI will reduce bias and increase objectivity.
00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:52.639
From a behavioral science perspective, how do AI systems instead amplify behavioral bias and risk, particularly when leaders delegate judgment without fully understanding the models?
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:53.679
Yeah.
00:39:54.320 --> 00:40:02.639
So it comes back to the responsibility of the user and realizing that AI really can't help itself.
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:05.840
It's going to please its user.
00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:07.920
It's going to tell you what you want to hear.
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:15.199
So if you're asking questions with your own bias behind them, you're going to get bias answers.
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:23.360
That said, I do believe that AI does reduce bias when it's used well.
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:28.159
There's some fascinating studies of people chatting with an AI bot.
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:28.960
What was it called?
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:34.719
The debunk bot or something, where conspiracy theorists brought their conspiracies to Chat GPT.
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:38.559
And if they brought them to a human, their opinion is not going to change at all, right?
00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:40.159
Because it's emotion-based.
00:40:40.239 --> 00:40:51.920
But they would bring their conspiracy theory to this custom bot, and they actually would start changing their mind because it was so objective and there was no emotional back and forth.
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:53.599
That was a really interesting study.
00:40:53.760 --> 00:41:05.679
But also, you know, with what we're doing specifically, we've proved part of validating our science was to prove, we had to prove that there are not biases in the behavioral data.
00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:13.599
So if you know a black person versus a white person ended up having different scores because of their race, then we're completely invalidated.
00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:30.320
If it's male, female, if it's you know 60 years old versus 30 years old, if there are any correlations between attributes and those, you know, ethnicity or gender or age, then we're invalid.
00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:40.880
So we had to build a system that there weren't correlations, which means now that the data being fed to RAI is already without bias.
00:41:41.119 --> 00:41:41.440
Right.
00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:52.320
So I can chat about somebody's assessment results and behavioral data, and I don't know their name, I don't know their gender, I don't know their age, I don't know their the color of their skin or anything like that.
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:58.639
So it actually is a pretty incredible way to remove and reduce bias from the get-go.
00:41:59.199 --> 00:42:01.280
The the risk, though, is later on.
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:12.719
Once I have that data, you know, if I don't like Carlos, I'll be able to convince AI that he's not a good fit, you know, and so we still have to understand that we have biases.
00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:16.400
And if we bring those to AI, we're going to get biased answers back.
00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:37.519
That's a really interesting and important point, I think, because there is so much contradiction and hate based just on those aspects which might be blurred or eliminated through this type of evaluation.
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:54.800
But at the same time, when you are mentioning conspiracy theories and everything else, we've seen through the years that there are so many facts which were taken in one way, and then it turned out that it was something completely different.
00:42:54.960 --> 00:43:19.840
So, how do you address that so that you leave some space to the probability that maybe this is not 100% truth, and you've done your homework to get rid of the biases, but still this might change, and humans deserve to get that flexibility within the frame.
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:21.760
Yeah, it's a really important thing.
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:32.960
We just have to always remember that bias is going to exist, and that the machine we're using, no matter how based on data it is, was still built by humans.
00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:42.239
And so, like that business problems or people problems, that that's going to continue on no matter how advanced this technology gets.
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:55.920
So, yeah, I don't know that I don't know if I have an answer other than just reaffirm, yeah, like we have to keep ourselves aware of this if it's something that we consider important and care about.
00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:57.360
Beautiful.
00:43:57.840 --> 00:43:59.760
Jason, looking ahead, yeah, I see stuff.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:05.039
Will increasingly recommend or take action, not just provide insights.
00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:13.199
Where is the line between AI as decision support and AI eroding leadership responsibility and critical thinking?
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:19.840
And what concrete practices help leaders retain ownership or judgment and power?
00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:27.360
The uncomfortable opinion on that that I have is that we just don't know yet.
00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:34.960
We are still diving into this headfirst with no precedent.
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:41.840
And so I'm sure there's some practices I'd have to really think on that part of the question more.
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:46.480
But knowing where the line is, I have no idea.
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:49.519
Because I think everyone's going to set the line differently.
00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:55.760
You know, some people might lean more heavily on AI's recommendation and think that that's where the line is.
00:44:55.920 --> 00:45:02.159
It's, you know, having a bias towards AI because it's so quote unquote objective.
00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:06.480
Some people might say that the line has to be on the human side.
00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:10.559
Like, you know, AI shouldn't really be doing any of this work at all.
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:12.400
It might be somebody else's line.
00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:16.639
So I think it's very subjective right now, and I just don't think we have the answers to that yet.
00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:18.079
So true.
00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:32.159
When we get in uncharted territories, and we have to just learn how to do it and reduce our risks, mitigate our risks, but still we need to move forward.
00:45:33.119 --> 00:45:47.440
What is one deeply embedded belief about leadership authority or high performance that leaders must unlearn in order to responsibly adapt and thrive in AI-driven environments?
00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:55.039
Speaking about lack of predictability and living outside the comfort zone 24-7.
00:45:56.239 --> 00:45:58.880
I think it comes right back to where we started.
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:00.800
It's power versus control.
00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:06.320
That real power is not a finite resource that should be hoarded.
00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:07.440
It's infinite.
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:11.360
And as it's shared, it expands.
00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:28.639
And we have to let go of these deeply embedded beliefs that if I give somebody else power, then they're going to have power over me.
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:37.119
No, if I have the power, I'm the person to show whatever, and I give that person power, the overall power is expanding.
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:44.320
Our ability to influence outcomes is now expanded in healthy ways, not in threatening ways.
00:46:44.639 --> 00:47:06.400
And I think that we have a very fear-driven society that is latching on to control more and more out of fear that you know somebody else having their own power is going to somehow threaten my way of being.
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:09.119
And we have to let go of that.
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:20.079
That's not easy.
00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:21.519
It's not easy.
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:25.039
And another question connected to this one.
00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:26.800
And I totally agree.
00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:36.320
In the best of the worlds, it would be amazing to see power expansion and give as much power as possible to every individual.
00:47:36.559 --> 00:48:03.760
But given that there were so many generations of individuals raised on scarcity, on competition, on division, on hate, on all those competitiveness and lack and fear-based values, how can we dare give in power to everybody when it's obvious that not everybody has good intentions?
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:20.480
And then it's going to lead to certain types of outcomes which are not going to be as amazing as they could be if we would have a different operational system inside, but still we are as we are.
00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:25.039
How to solve that, or how do you see this part?
00:48:26.559 --> 00:48:32.320
I wish I knew because there's so much irony in the fear-based mentality.
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:38.880
I mean, I think some of the scaredest people in the world are the billionaires, which makes no sense, right?
00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:48.639
Like the most privileged, well-to-do folks are like afraid that their tax rates are going to go up and that they're going to lose power.
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:54.639
And you're going like, does anybody have an idea of what a billion is in terms of dollars?
00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:56.079
What are you afraid of?
00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:58.000
Like it makes no sense to me.
00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:05.119
And I see that there, like some of the most privileged people are the most scared people.
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:10.320
I wish I knew how to solve that problem.
00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:17.840
I know what's contributing to it, but I don't really know how to move away from it, unfortunately.
00:49:18.159 --> 00:49:21.760
Other than self-awareness, but that's a decision that people have to make.
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:27.039
And you know, if I could, well, I so I know what you're gonna ask next.
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:34.639
And I think it would, if we want to jump ahead, I think that my answer to that would be a potential at least like individual solve.
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:37.039
So why don't you uh ask me what's next on the list?
00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:39.840
Because I don't want to just jump ahead and not have an answer to that.
00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:48.159
You are already like predictive models that you know what I'm going to ask, and you even know the answer to that.
00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:51.519
Well, I mean, I can see the time and I know that we're gonna be wrapping up soon.
00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:57.280
And so, I mean, I could be wrong, but I've been on a lot of these podcasts, so I think I know it might be coming soon.
00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:00.079
That's amazing.
00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:00.960
Yes.
00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:07.039
But the last one, which is going to wrap up today's conversation.
00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:11.840
And I love this conversation, and you had so many great points.
00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:26.320
But what is one piece of advice you would give to leaders who want to use behavioral science and AI to predict success without compromising responsibility, trust, or human judgment?
00:50:27.280 --> 00:50:28.000
I knew it.
00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:35.440
I so this and I get this every interview, and my answer just continues to stay the same.
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:37.360
Be curious.
00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:51.519
Like whether it's the grasping for control, or you're facing fear and uncertainty, or you're trying to embrace a new technology like AI, or you're dealing with people problems, be curious.
00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:53.920
Don't assume that you have all the answers.
00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:57.119
Don't assume that you're getting the full truth.
00:50:57.280 --> 00:51:00.960
Don't assume that your perspective is the only one or the right one.
00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:07.440
Be curious and start asking questions of the people around you and your circles of community.
00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:09.599
Make sure you have a challenge network.
00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:13.199
And by that I mean people that don't agree with everything you ever say.
00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:20.880
And be curious what their perspectives are and bring that curiosity to this whole world of AI.
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:40.719
And if you do that really narrowly, specifically in our world with the behavioral science plus AI, if you come with curiosity, you're gonna unlock unbelievable new insights and beautiful ways of seeing the world and perspectives that you just never could have imagined before.
00:51:41.840 --> 00:52:11.920
Jason, I absolutely love your advice because that's something that is opening up for the brighter future and also supports the idea that we all deserve more freedom and more power, and we'll figure out how to navigate this unknown space, these exciting times, creating that human AI synergy and co-creating the world together.
00:52:12.159 --> 00:52:24.800
So, thank you so much for being here and sharing with us your wisdom, your experience, and telling more about the amazing solutions you are developing.
00:52:25.360 --> 00:52:26.880
Thank you for having me.
00:52:27.679 --> 00:52:31.920
Thank you for joining us on Digital Transformation and AI for humans.
00:52:32.159 --> 00:52:36.000
I am Amy, and it was enriching to share this time with you.
00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:43.280
Remember, the core of any transformation lies in our human nature, how we think, feel, and connect with others.
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:51.199
It is about enhancing our emotional intelligence, embracing a winning mindset, and leading with empathy and insight.
00:52:51.440 --> 00:53:02.159
Subscribe and stay tuned for more episodes where we uncover the latest trends in digital business and explore the human side of technology and leadership.
00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:13.280
If this conversation resonated with you and you are a visionary leader, business owner, or investor ready to shape what's next, consider joining the AI Game Changers Club.
00:53:13.519 --> 00:53:16.559
You will find more information in the description.
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:23.679
Until next time, keep nurturing your mind, fostering your connections, and leading with heart.