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[instrumental music] You have to put that effort forward as well. You can't always expect that they'll come help me because I had an earthquake or something. No.
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You need to also check on your colleagues and be present and diplomat around the world. Even the UK, we've got lots to learn.
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So that ability to work with others and listen to others, facilitated through a network where everybody's equal, everybody's got a contribution, and it's an inclusive mechanism, was really powerful, and it's a very effective mechanism.
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Welcome to Crisis Led podcast. I'm Kyle, your host, and today we're discussing disaster diplomacy. And in our globalized world, disasters often cross borders, making international cooperation vital.
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Today, we're diving into a, a really exciting update from my perspective on a new global initiative that's set to revolutionize firefighting and fire prevention worldwide.
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And as many of you, that's something near and dear to my heart. So in this episode, we'll be discussing the inaugural World Fire Congress, a groundbreaking event that took place in Washington, D.C.
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from May sixth to eighth in 2024, just a few months ago.
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And so this historic gathering brought together fire service leaders from over 50 nations to address common global challenges and establish a unified approach to firefighting, at least as one of its main efforts and themes.
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And so not only are we gonna be discussing the World Fire Congress, but also diplomacy and disaster diplomacy today.
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And of course, as always, we have a couple of guests, and today I'll turn it over to Lamar Medlock, who's joining us today. And Lamar, just a quick introduction to you, and then also with Mr.
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Lee Howell from the UK, who's joining us today. So Lamar, over to you for a quick introduction. Sure. Thank you so much, Kyle, and thank you so much for having me on this podcast today. I'm so excited.
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As you mentioned, my name is Lamar Gonzales Medlock, and I am an emergency manager by trade. I have more than 30 years experience supporting and working for the US government.
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My last post in the US government was as a director of international affairs for the US Fire Administration, which is a directorate within the Department of Homeland Security.
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One of my largest engagements that I had the privilege and pleasure of working was the World Fire Congress, that we'll get into in just a moment, but that's just two seconds about me.
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And again, thank you so much for having me. Well, thanks for joining us. And Lee, over to you for a quick introduction. Thanks very much, Kyle, and hello, everyone.
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So my name's Lee Howell, and I'm a chief, uh, fire officer for one of the largest fire services in the UK at the moment, just about to, to finish. But I've spent time advising governments as a chief fire risk advisor.
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Uh, I've worked with the National Inspectorate, and, uh, I've also been the president of the Chief Fire Officers Association, which was a forerunner to the National Fire Chiefs Council.
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So lots of experience within the fire and rescue service, but one of the privileges of my career was working with Lamar and, uh, the World Fire Congress, uh, we're gonna delve into this podcast. So thank you, Kyle.
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Lovely to be here. Yeah, thanks again. Yeah, thanks for joining us, and I think it would be really great to start out with the World Fire Congress, a relatively new initiative.
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I'm sure it took some time to get started, but we'll, we can dive into that as well. But the theme of this sort of podcast is around diplomacy. I'm sure it took quite a bit to get that started.
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So first, maybe as an overview, Lamar, maybe I'll just turn over to you first. As an overview of the World Fire Congress and where this initiative started and then what really brought it together. Yeah. Absolutely, Kyle.
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Thank you. And I giggled when you said, "I know it took a lot of time," because we actually pulled it together in nine months. Yeah. Wish we'd had more time. We didn't.
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So it was a lot of blood, sweat and tears, Lee included there all the way. It was a transit project, and so the genesis of the World Fire Congress was honestly very simple. We found a void.
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We saw that there was a void for the fire service on a global level. There was no alliance around the world of the world fire service officials, whether it be civil protection, whether it be military or fire service.
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There was no gathering. There was no way for the entire world to get together, and it was very clear that's not the case in other disciplines. You'll see it in law enforcement. You'll see it in the medical services.
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They do have those global alliances. So the US Fire Administrator, her name is Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell, um, appointed by President Biden in '21, said, "You know what? We're gonna make one.
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We're just going to create an alliance since we can't find one." And we did.
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She gathered several stakeholders from mostly in the US, but also from the UK and Australia, created an executive steering committee that sat around a table and we voted, "Yea, verily, we will commit our time, our energy, our resources to establish a world body."
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So not just, "Let's have a great meeting, take some pictures, wasn't that nice?" But rather, "Let's establish an international body that is 100% dedicated to the global fire service."
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Thus was born the World Fire Congress. The US Department of Homeland Security was the sponsor through the Federal Emergency Management Agency, FEMA, and the US Fire Administration, or USFA.
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And as the host for the first year, Dr. Lori connected with Mr.
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Mark Hartingham, also the president of the National Fire Chiefs Council, NFCC, and the two of them said, "Okay, we'll be the co-hosts now for 2024, and to make sure that this body continues and has momentum, we're already gonna commit to 2026, and it will move from Washington, D.C.
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to the UK." We held the Congress in May of this year, 2024, in Washington, D.C.And when I tell you we were at capacity, Kyle, we were at capacity. There were standing room only. It was much bigger than we anticipated.
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We had fifty-five nations, and that includes from the smallest island nation to the largest superpowers were in that room.
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We actually had a colleague from the United Nations who was there, and as an aside said, "You were able to pull together more countries than we could." So that was, okay, phew, we did a good job.
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And the fire officials spent the time together. They heard from experts around the world on those topics that are just the hardest-hitting, and I'm sure Lee will attest to it. They were resonated through all the nations.
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This wasn't a Western problem or an Asian problem at all, and it was a rousing success.
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The Congress now has working groups that have come out of it, so there's a tail, and between now and '26, the working groups are gonna be dedicated to producing something, whether it's a webinar, a position statement, something that shows that they've worked together on XYZ topic.
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But that's, that's what we did, and I'll turn it over to Lee to talk about where it's going in '26. Yeah. And so we're very much in the detailed planning stage of '26.
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It will be held in London in an iconic venue right in the heart of the city.
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That's just for logistical reasons, but also what sits around is making sure that we can make the World Fire Congress as accessible as, as we can for all nations.
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So the real success we had in this year, in '24, was built on a number of things. It was built on relationships, it was built on trust and confidence, and it was built on engagement,
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and Lamar had a huge role to play in that. Dr. Lori was absolutely fundamental in, uh, in demonstrating some of that leadership of pulling key parts together.
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So the event in, uh, September of '26 will be hopefully bigger. It will bring together some other partners that weren't able to attend in '24.
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But the principles that were so successful about building those relationships, building that network and building that trust and confidence will run through 2026 and, and onwards. Yeah.
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Thanks Lee, and, and Lamar for that overview. I think it's really fascinating. And Lee, I'm curious about your opinion and your perspective.
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One of the things that we always cherish and, and promote at Crisis Lab is international perspectives on some common issues, whether it's disasters or crisis, whatever the case is.
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When you heard about something like this, a, a World Fire Congress, and it was proposed to you, you also mentioned that you did a lot of work in other nations. Was this filling a specific gap?
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Uh, what were you thinking when you initially heard about an international initiative specifically for the fire service? Yeah, absolutely. It's a really good point, Kyle.
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We have had experience in building relationships at regional level.
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We've done a lot of work within, within Europe, and building those relationships and those networks of influence, and that's had some real positive traction.
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But never before have we done this on a global scale, and yet some of the issues that we're dealing with are the same issues across the world, things like wildfire, the, the impact of climate change.
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These are global events that are happening in increasing severity.
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And because of that, having a coalition of like-minded individuals that understand the problem, so defining the problem, being clear what the problem is, and then importantly, having a commitment to doing something about it, and then supporting that commitment with some practical tools and techniques that come about through sharing information.
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That's the real power, that's the real strength of, of, of this. The other thing that was very attractive about the, uh, the, the concept was that
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there's an opportunity to learn from others that have different environments.
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So in the UK, we're not the world's expert on wildfires, but we've now got access to people who are, and we can learn from them, and we can use that to, to change some of those techniques to make the UK safer.
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It's a developed country. It feels it is progressive, feels it's very good at a number of things. But even the UK, we've got lots to learn.
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So that ability to work with others and listen to others, facilitated through a network where everybody's equal, everybody's got a contribution, and it's an inclusive mechanism, was really powerful, and it's a very effective mechanism.
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And the other bit that Lamar talked about, the communities of practice. Um, what they are going to do is it's going to allow that expertise to be drawn in and, and offered into areas where individuals have a...
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or nations have a, a contribution to make. So you can draw down from others where you need to learn, but you can also push into the mix where you've got experience for others to contribute. Thanks, Lee.
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That's really interesting, and I think you highlight a really important point, which is having access to expertise which you may not have on your own sort of territories or whatever the case is, and your own departments, and having that expertise and somebody you can talk to is extremely important.
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And I think sustaining those relationships is, uh, throughout that whole process.
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It's not just only establishing connections, but sustaining relationships and using these, and what you mentioned in terms of these types of working groups that are happening and committees on the interim is, I think, gonna help with that.
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But Lam- Lamar, I wanted to come back to you just a little bit in terms of the framework and conceptual idea on this.
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So as I understand it, the World Fire Congress will happen every two years, and then these working groups are going to be doing the work in between or something like that.
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Is that sort of how this is structured, and then they're gonna have a type of deliverable or set of recommendations in between that? Yes, that's exactly right, Kyle, and thank you for pointing that out.
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The idea is to make sure that we don't lose that forward motion between meetings, so the working groups, communities of practice are going to report outAt the following meeting, in this case in '26, those colleagues around the table will hear reports out from the working groups re- whether it's, "Oh, we held three or four webinars, and they were attended by X countries, and we talked about these themes," or it's a, "We developed a position statement on wildfire, uh, urban interface, and this is to whom we submitted it in the United Nations, and this is how it was received."
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Um, but those working groups and those communities of practice will stand down in '26, and new ones will be developed for the '26 to '28 time period.
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And that idea was critical to ensure that you don't lose interest, [laughs] you get those folks on a kind of task force mentality. They're in, they're out, they give the report, and they go on about their business.
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And as we all know, sitting around this table or the pod virtual table, that the issues change, and the things that the three of us are talking about today may or may not matter in four years. We don't know. So it's...
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We have to make sure that we're temporal and we're agile, and we're making the most use of those experts as possible.
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So when you're talking about these topics, Lamar, it makes me think that there's probably, I'm guessing and, but I, I think I'm correct, that there's also misperceptions, and we say World Fire Congress, that it's only like fire trucks and apparatus and ladders, all sorts of stuff.
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But, uh, curiously, when we talk about the World Fire Congress and the planning that you're doing moving into 2026, there's a lot of really broad themes that are also discussed.
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I understand there's emerging technologies, climate, sort of security issues that are also brought up. So what is the range of topics that are being discussed and shared amongst the professionals at this event?
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Yeah, that's a really good point. So we're everything from climate change through to emerging technologies as, as you say, Carl, and there's a really strong point here.
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And this world is well informed by subject matter experts. Not all of those exist within the fire and rescue service.
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So one of the things that the US government do really is they have been able to bring in some real subject matter experts, global leading experts on climate change into some of these debates.
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That's really elevated the level of discussion. What we learnt very quickly is that different countries have got different ways of drawing from that expertise.
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So what, from a UK perspective, if we need to lean in and to bring an expert from the UK Met Office that sits in a different government department into, for that debate, we can now do that because we've got the ability to match subject matter experts at, at the right level.
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This isn't just a, a mechanism where you have professionals talking to each other.
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This is informed by world-leading subject matter experts, and that really allows the debate to be broad enough to be strategic and contribute, but not too tactical, not too technical.
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This isn't about how you put out specific fires. There are mechanisms to do that.
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What this is about is shaping government policy and trying to understand what the fundamental problems are, and that could be a systems issue, it could be a policy issue.
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And the reason why I think, and Lamar will have a view on this, the reason why I think the first World Fire Congress was so successful is the fact it was a government-to-government initiative, and that was done deliberately to make sure that the senior policy officials within respective governments are invited.
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Because if you don't have political legislative frameworks that enable practical solutions to be delivered, then actually you're not really gonna be solving the problem.
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Defining the problem, getting the right people around the table, but then bringing the expertise to the fore from wherever it's best placed is, is one of the things that I found really refreshing with this.
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We've done this before in terms of professional networks having discussions with each other, and that's great, but this is a strategic engagement. It is a World Congress. It's not a conference.
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[gentle music] Hey there, just a quick pause in our show for a second. Did you know that most of our guests on the Crisis Lab podcast have courses inside of Crisis Lab?
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Now let's get back to the show. It's really interesting, Lee, that you mentioned that because we're getting into the mechanisms or the mechanics of cooperation, and that I think that's really important.
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I want to emphasize that, and I do wanna go to you, to Lamar, to just, to unpack that a little bit because I think it's also pertinent in our diplomacy discussion. But Lee,
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before we do that, there's other organizations out there like International Association of Fire Chiefs and, and things like that, and of course, there's other fire service organizations around the world as well.
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How would you make a distinction between the two? And I...
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To a certain extent, I think you might answered that question already at the very last part of your remarks, but I'd like to just unpack that a little bit more just because I think that could be confusing or, and for some people, in terms of the just the naming convention, they'll say, "We have an international association.
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How is a World Fire Congress different?" But I- Yeah... from what I hear you explaining it, they are very different.
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Yeah, and one of the things that has been a key to the success here is the engagement and inclusion of those respective associations as part of the design and, and as part of this executive steering committee.
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This very much was shaped by and informed by an executive steering committee that did have associations that were plugged into that to shape it and inform the content.
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We started at design stage with key stakeholders.So this wasn't something that sat on the side and was developed just by the US government, and the US said, "This is a great idea. Let's make this happen."
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There was a catalyst for change that came very much from Dr. Lori and US government, absolutely.
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But the way in which that was delivered was done through and with respective organizations, and it, it very much feels like that. It always felt like a partnership.
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It felt like we were co-creating something really important, and I think that continues. The executive steering committee will still continue to drive the agenda for World Fire Congress twenty twenty-six.
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So that sense of collective focus, bringing together the expertise from within respective organizations and associations, but putting that within a global mechanism that allows that to be shared and shaped at a macro level is really powerful.
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Just one bit to add there, that Lee is exactly right. That executive steering committee is the driver. They were also the provider of the names in a great deal of instances, so we knew...
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Because before we even set about the congress, we had to figure out a list. Who will we invite?
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Because as he mentioned, this wasn't a conference that we just posted on the web and said, "Pay us six hundred dollars and you can come."
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It was by invitation only, and it was very selective, but the list didn't even exist.
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So we relied a great deal on that executive steering committee to provide us the lists of those particular countries that pertain to their associations, to their stakeholders, because that in itself would have stopped the Congress had we not been able to rely on the executive steering committee.
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Yeah, thanks for that, Lamarr, and I, I did wanna come back to you in terms of what Lee had mentioned about these mechanisms and needing that government buy-in and stakeholder engagement.
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Very happy to hear these associations were contributing to, to development of the World Fire Congress.
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But in terms of when we focus on these types of initiatives and we think about them in terms of disaster diplomacy and, and diplomacy overall, this is one mechanism that, Lee, you also mentioned is, is fostering cooperation, fostering the exchange of experts, fostering the knowledge sharing and engagements.
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How important are these types of mechanisms in terms of overall disaster diplomacy, Lamarr? Oh, my gosh. That's such a great question, Kyle, and I can't stress enough the importance.
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As we discussed in this course over the several modules, having pre-positioned a relationship means less disaster response time taken up in determining your relationship. Now you have your people already set up.
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You have these relationships built. You have MOUs in place perhaps. You have, in this case, your colleagues from your community of practice in the World Fire Congress.
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And with these no notice events, you can now quickly gather your resource sharing, your knowledge sharing, whatever it is that you need to respond because you've built those relationships and you've prepared beforehand.
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I cannot stress enough the importance of taking those blinders off as an emergency manager and looking around and saying, "Wow, there's a whole world out there that's doing the same thing I am, colleagues of mine that are around the world that I don't even know."
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They need to pre-position themselves. Just like we stage water and food and tarps, we have to pre-stage our relationships as well.
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I think one of the value adds to that, at least in terms of my experiences, generally during larger scale crisis, is that you always have the mechanisms of cooperation that you can request assistance, so y-your Atlantic Disaster Response Coordination Center from NATO or EU Civil Protection Mechanism or the UN.
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There's all sorts of international mechanisms that are there. But to your point, Lamarr, we can always send a request, but you can always give somebody a call, right? Yeah.
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So once you have those established relationships, you can say, "I've sent a request, but I need to talk to you."
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And I find that most of the people are generally very receptive to the idea, but you have to have these networks in place, to your point. Or how about, "I'm about to send you a request," and it's just a WhatsApp note.
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"Hey, something's coming your way. Please pay attention. Please take a look. Look out for me because this is coming."
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When I think about that in terms of the international cooperation, Lee, I wanna get your perspective on that as well. What are you seeing, especially in terms of you yourself?
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You said you've worked in various different nations and, and worked bilaterally in the fire service with different organizations. I'd love to hear your perspective as well.
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Yeah, absolutely, and I think just before I, I do that, Kyle, just picking up on that point you made about the mechanisms for support when an event happens are established and they're well established and, and they work effectively and they're, they're tried and tested.
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I think what we were able to do is to start to build resilience at an earlier stage by thinking ahead, understanding the problems, sharing expertise, and, and enabling countries to be more resilient before a, an event, uh, happens.
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So wildfire is a really good example.
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Understanding some of the preventative a-as well as mitigation arrangements that are in place with other nations is useful knowledge, and then that then means that you're less likely to have a, a major event because you've prepared for it and you've got in place a more resilient system locally.
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Obviously, that support mechanism will always be there either at bilateral, multilateral basis.
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But specifically to your point about, um, how things work, I think there's always a tendency, especially when people are busy, to focus on your world, whatever that world is, your responsibilities, whether they're statutory responsibilities or whether they're-- it's what you've always done.
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But I think increasingly some of the problems that we're experiencing are multifaceted. They're not able to be solved by any one agency, any one country. These are big issues that we're facing.
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Climate change is probably the, the, the best example. So we can't do that on our own.
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We shouldn't try and do it on our own.So working together and recognizing that you haven't got all the answers, and by reaching out, trying to learn from others, and trying to give and receive information is, is key.
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And that then builds that relationship, and like with all things, as we know, if you've got strong relationships, then actually, uh, you can solve almost anything.
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There's no point in having processes and procedures in place. Primarily, you've got to trust people that are coming in.
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If people are coming in to help, they need to understand your culture, they need to understand the way in which you operate.
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And coming in and saying, "This is how we do this in our country," won't always land well if you're going in to support somebody else. It's a pull basis, it's not a push. It's...
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And I think you get to that point by understanding each other, and that comes from building relationships in peace time so that when you do need to draw on those mechanisms, it fits seamlessly into a solution.
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Just two seconds here, Kyle. I'll add that what Lee is talking about is diplomating. It is an action verb. You cannot just sit back and it... and think, "My foreign partners will help me.
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If something happens, we can rely on that." Absolutely not. You also have to maintain those relationships, sustain them, check on people, "How are you? I read you had an earthquake. Do you need anything?"
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Even if it's just a chat, I can't tell you how often we've done that from the US government perspective, and now on my own as an independent consultant.
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I still check on colleagues around the world when I read that they had something going on. And just saying, "Hey, I'm thinking of you.
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I can't send you a truck or a ladder or whatever it else you need, or people, but I'm thinking of you. And if you wanna talk, or if you need anything, just give me a shout. I'm a WhatsApp away.
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It doesn't matter what time it is. It doesn't matter if it's off hours or weekends or... Because that's not how emergency managers roll anyway. We're always available." So you have to put that effort forward as well.
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You can't always expect, "Oh, they'll come help me because I had an earthquake or something." No. You need to also check on your colleagues and be present and diplomat around the world.
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Yeah, that's an interesting point, Lamar, and also from Lee. I have, like, a two-part question as we close out.
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One is really when I hear about this, the idea, and I, I think it's a great initiative, as with all things, it's also an issue of sustainability. So what are the risks in terms of this program?
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How can we ensure it stays sustainable, especially for these more... These are great initiatives, but they're, they're also diplomatic initiatives, right? So how can we ensure that this is sustained?
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And you mentioned part of it about government buy-in. How can we ensure it's sustained in the future moving into 2026 and the next Congress?
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And then, I guess the second part of that question is, what is really the future of disaster diplomacy then?
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So are we gonna see more mechanisms like this, better sharing across borders, information sharing, expertise, and things like that? Those are a couple of questions I have.
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And so Lee, I'll start with you, and then Lamar, I'll come back to you to, to close out. You got it. Yeah. No, absolutely.
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And I think in terms of the sustainability, it is true that there is a significant cost associated with running these events, and that is a, a challenge, but, but also an opportunity because we do have sponsors that want to be part of it.
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They, they see the benefit of this.
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So if I use the World Bank in particular in terms of sustainability, the World Bank is fantastic at enabling some developing countries that, that, that might not otherwise be able to afford the travel and accommodation.
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What we're not trying to do is to create something that is only available for those that can afford to come and sit around the table, and the World Bank and other sponsors enable that support, and they play a, a valuable part in enabling the debate.
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And we're very lucky because there was a significant sponsorship in... for the World Fire Congress in 2020. But that isn't necessarily the only way that it can be done.
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If there are opportunities for government-to-government discussions and providing some funding, then, then maybe that's something that needs to be worked through.
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Certainly, if the National Fire Chiefs Council, and if Mark Hardinger was on this call, the chair of the National Fire Chiefs Council, Mark is aware of the costs of running this event, and we need to think about how we, we manage that in a way that ensures the event is successful and it does all the things that we need it to do.
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But we've got to work within the budget that's available, and the National Fire Chiefs Council is a charity. It's a professional network.
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So there are some risks, but there are also solutions, and that primarily comes from having the right partners around the table at the early stage, and that was proven to be successful in '24.
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So we want to build on that. We want to make that sustainable moving forward, and we're confident that's going to be the case. What do you think about the future, Lee?
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Do you think there's gonna be more platforms like this? Do you think this is gonna be something that starts to grow? Yeah.
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So I think the challenges caused by climate change, for example, is going to mean there, there is a need for, for more debate, more discussion, more sharing of knowledge.
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That global cooperation and working to address those climate change mitigation strategies, that requires action over that is much broader than any government or any agency's responsibilities.
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So I think the world that we're in is increasingly connected, and that's presents all sorts of opportunities but also challenges.
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So, so I think we do live in a connected world, and increasingly, and what we do in one part of the world has an impact in another, and I think there's a recognition of that.
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So I think we recognize that there's a need for us to work better together. So I do think there will be more of a, uh, move towards bilateral, multilateral discussions, and I think that's important.
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What we've got to do, though, is make sure that there's sufficient focus on the delivery, whether that's about shaping policy, whether it's about turning those discussions into action.
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Because if that doesn't happen, I don't think World Fire Congress will continue.
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If it becomes a talking shop, if it becomes another mechanism just to-share ideas and there's no action that follows from it, I think it would have missed an opportunity. Yeah, I think that's a great point.
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So Lamar, over to you to close us out. You've been our champion of disaster diplomacy and Crisis Lab support. So how do you see sustainment? And then how do you see the future of platforms like these? Yeah.
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Thank you, Kyle. Two things.
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The sustainment is that we have to institutionalize diplomating, meaning we have to take our blinders off, but we have to make sure our leadership buys in on that, that we are aligning with our organization, whatever it may be, whether you're private sector, you're government, you're nonprofit, you have to align with your strategic plan, your mission set.
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You have to align that international diplomacy or national diplomacy.
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So I, I'll offer another perspective is if you take that World Fire Congress template and bring it down to your region, whatever in the world you, wherever you are, you can do that diplomating in your region as well.
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And I'll give you an example. I just came from the second of three regional dialogues that were held in Mexico.
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Because their fire service is quite fractured, it's not under a government umbrella or national guide, so they've gotten together and said, "You know what?
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We're gonna get together on a regional level and have dialogues at the same sort of thing that was held at the World Fire Congress." It can be applied, that model can be applied throughout the world.
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So I think that's a wonderful way to institutionalize that action of diplomating. And as far as sustaining and, and what's our future, I think our future is technology.
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Podcasts like what we're doing right now is diplomating. Now we can reach an audience that we wouldn't have even thought about.
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If you're focused on, "I have to go to this conference, I have to go speak at this technical panel," eh, okay, that's great, but now I can reach who knows who.
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The more webinars we do, the more amplification we do of our situational awareness, our no-notice events, our planning for resilience, whatever the, the case may be, get out there and use the technology that is available.
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Because couple of years ago, even during COVID, there were some areas of the world that you couldn't rely on bandwidth. You couldn't rely, "Oh, I can't... My camera doesn't work here. This and that."
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That's not the case anymore. There are folks in very far-flung rural communities that get online no problem. So let's get at them. Let's leverage the technology, and that to me is the future of diplomating.
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Of course, this one-on-one, Lee and I working side by side opening boxes for an event, hey, there's nothing that compares to that. I 100%, I'm a people person. I get it.
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But let's leverage the technology that's available and really reach as many people as possible. Okay. Thanks for that, Lamar. It's a great way to wrap up. Absolutely.
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So we're running at just about time, but that's all the time we have for today.
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Again, a huge thanks to our guests, Lamar Medlock and also Lee Howell, for sharing your knowledge and experience as we discuss disaster diplomacy, and specifically, I think a great example with the World Fire Congress.
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So thank you very much, Lamar and Lee, for joining us today. Thank you, Kyle. It's been wonderful. Thanks, Kyle. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to the Crisis Lab podcast.
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[outro music]
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[instrumental music] You have to put that effort forward as well. You can't always expect that they'll come help me because I had an earthquake or something. No.
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You need to also check on your colleagues and be present and diplomat around the world. Even the UK, we've got lots to learn.
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So that ability to work with others and listen to others, facilitated through a network where everybody's equal, everybody's got a contribution, and it's an inclusive mechanism, was really powerful, and it's a very effective mechanism.
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Welcome to Crisis Led podcast. I'm Kyle, your host, and today we're discussing disaster diplomacy. And in our globalized world, disasters often cross borders, making international cooperation vital.
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Today, we're diving into a, a really exciting update from my perspective on a new global initiative that's set to revolutionize firefighting and fire prevention worldwide.
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And as many of you, that's something near and dear to my heart. So in this episode, we'll be discussing the inaugural World Fire Congress, a groundbreaking event that took place in Washington, D.C.
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from May sixth to eighth in 2024, just a few months ago.
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And so this historic gathering brought together fire service leaders from over 50 nations to address common global challenges and establish a unified approach to firefighting, at least as one of its main efforts and themes.
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And so not only are we gonna be discussing the World Fire Congress, but also diplomacy and disaster diplomacy today.
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And of course, as always, we have a couple of guests, and today I'll turn it over to Lamar Medlock, who's joining us today. And Lamar, just a quick introduction to you, and then also with Mr.
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Lee Howell from the UK, who's joining us today. So Lamar, over to you for a quick introduction. Sure. Thank you so much, Kyle, and thank you so much for having me on this podcast today. I'm so excited.
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As you mentioned, my name is Lamar Gonzales Medlock, and I am an emergency manager by trade. I have more than 30 years experience supporting and working for the US government.
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My last post in the US government was as a director of international affairs for the US Fire Administration, which is a directorate within the Department of Homeland Security.
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One of my largest engagements that I had the privilege and pleasure of working was the World Fire Congress, that we'll get into in just a moment, but that's just two seconds about me.
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And again, thank you so much for having me. Well, thanks for joining us. And Lee, over to you for a quick introduction. Thanks very much, Kyle, and hello, everyone.
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So my name's Lee Howell, and I'm a chief, uh, fire officer for one of the largest fire services in the UK at the moment, just about to, to finish. But I've spent time advising governments as a chief fire risk advisor.
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Uh, I've worked with the National Inspectorate, and, uh, I've also been the president of the Chief Fire Officers Association, which was a forerunner to the National Fire Chiefs Council.
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So lots of experience within the fire and rescue service, but one of the privileges of my career was working with Lamar and, uh, the World Fire Congress, uh, we're gonna delve into this podcast. So thank you, Kyle.
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Lovely to be here. Yeah, thanks again. Yeah, thanks for joining us, and I think it would be really great to start out with the World Fire Congress, a relatively new initiative.
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I'm sure it took some time to get started, but we'll, we can dive into that as well. But the theme of this sort of podcast is around diplomacy. I'm sure it took quite a bit to get that started.
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So first, maybe as an overview, Lamar, maybe I'll just turn over to you first. As an overview of the World Fire Congress and where this initiative started and then what really brought it together. Yeah. Absolutely, Kyle.
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Thank you. And I giggled when you said, "I know it took a lot of time," because we actually pulled it together in nine months. Yeah. Wish we'd had more time. We didn't.
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So it was a lot of blood, sweat and tears, Lee included there all the way. It was a transit project, and so the genesis of the World Fire Congress was honestly very simple. We found a void.
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We saw that there was a void for the fire service on a global level. There was no alliance around the world of the world fire service officials, whether it be civil protection, whether it be military or fire service.
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There was no gathering. There was no way for the entire world to get together, and it was very clear that's not the case in other disciplines. You'll see it in law enforcement. You'll see it in the medical services.
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They do have those global alliances. So the US Fire Administrator, her name is Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell, um, appointed by President Biden in '21, said, "You know what? We're gonna make one.
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We're just going to create an alliance since we can't find one." And we did.
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She gathered several stakeholders from mostly in the US, but also from the UK and Australia, created an executive steering committee that sat around a table and we voted, "Yea, verily, we will commit our time, our energy, our resources to establish a world body."
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So not just, "Let's have a great meeting, take some pictures, wasn't that nice?" But rather, "Let's establish an international body that is 100% dedicated to the global fire service."
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Thus was born the World Fire Congress. The US Department of Homeland Security was the sponsor through the Federal Emergency Management Agency, FEMA, and the US Fire Administration, or USFA.
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And as the host for the first year, Dr. Lori connected with Mr.
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Mark Hartingham, also the president of the National Fire Chiefs Council, NFCC, and the two of them said, "Okay, we'll be the co-hosts now for 2024, and to make sure that this body continues and has momentum, we're already gonna commit to 2026, and it will move from Washington, D.C.
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to the UK." We held the Congress in May of this year, 2024, in Washington, D.C.And when I tell you we were at capacity, Kyle, we were at capacity. There were standing room only. It was much bigger than we anticipated.
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We had fifty-five nations, and that includes from the smallest island nation to the largest superpowers were in that room.
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We actually had a colleague from the United Nations who was there, and as an aside said, "You were able to pull together more countries than we could." So that was, okay, phew, we did a good job.
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And the fire officials spent the time together. They heard from experts around the world on those topics that are just the hardest-hitting, and I'm sure Lee will attest to it. They were resonated through all the nations.
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This wasn't a Western problem or an Asian problem at all, and it was a rousing success.
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The Congress now has working groups that have come out of it, so there's a tail, and between now and '26, the working groups are gonna be dedicated to producing something, whether it's a webinar, a position statement, something that shows that they've worked together on XYZ topic.
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But that's, that's what we did, and I'll turn it over to Lee to talk about where it's going in '26. Yeah. And so we're very much in the detailed planning stage of '26.
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It will be held in London in an iconic venue right in the heart of the city.
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That's just for logistical reasons, but also what sits around is making sure that we can make the World Fire Congress as accessible as, as we can for all nations.
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So the real success we had in this year, in '24, was built on a number of things. It was built on relationships, it was built on trust and confidence, and it was built on engagement,
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and Lamar had a huge role to play in that. Dr. Lori was absolutely fundamental in, uh, in demonstrating some of that leadership of pulling key parts together.
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So the event in, uh, September of '26 will be hopefully bigger. It will bring together some other partners that weren't able to attend in '24.
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But the principles that were so successful about building those relationships, building that network and building that trust and confidence will run through 2026 and, and onwards. Yeah.
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Thanks Lee, and, and Lamar for that overview. I think it's really fascinating. And Lee, I'm curious about your opinion and your perspective.
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One of the things that we always cherish and, and promote at Crisis Lab is international perspectives on some common issues, whether it's disasters or crisis, whatever the case is.
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When you heard about something like this, a, a World Fire Congress, and it was proposed to you, you also mentioned that you did a lot of work in other nations. Was this filling a specific gap?
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Uh, what were you thinking when you initially heard about an international initiative specifically for the fire service? Yeah, absolutely. It's a really good point, Kyle.
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We have had experience in building relationships at regional level.
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We've done a lot of work within, within Europe, and building those relationships and those networks of influence, and that's had some real positive traction.
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But never before have we done this on a global scale, and yet some of the issues that we're dealing with are the same issues across the world, things like wildfire, the, the impact of climate change.
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These are global events that are happening in increasing severity.
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And because of that, having a coalition of like-minded individuals that understand the problem, so defining the problem, being clear what the problem is, and then importantly, having a commitment to doing something about it, and then supporting that commitment with some practical tools and techniques that come about through sharing information.
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That's the real power, that's the real strength of, of, of this. The other thing that was very attractive about the, uh, the, the concept was that
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there's an opportunity to learn from others that have different environments.
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So in the UK, we're not the world's expert on wildfires, but we've now got access to people who are, and we can learn from them, and we can use that to, to change some of those techniques to make the UK safer.
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It's a developed country. It feels it is progressive, feels it's very good at a number of things. But even the UK, we've got lots to learn.
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So that ability to work with others and listen to others, facilitated through a network where everybody's equal, everybody's got a contribution, and it's an inclusive mechanism, was really powerful, and it's a very effective mechanism.
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And the other bit that Lamar talked about, the communities of practice. Um, what they are going to do is it's going to allow that expertise to be drawn in and, and offered into areas where individuals have a...
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or nations have a, a contribution to make. So you can draw down from others where you need to learn, but you can also push into the mix where you've got experience for others to contribute. Thanks, Lee.
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That's really interesting, and I think you highlight a really important point, which is having access to expertise which you may not have on your own sort of territories or whatever the case is, and your own departments, and having that expertise and somebody you can talk to is extremely important.
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And I think sustaining those relationships is, uh, throughout that whole process.
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It's not just only establishing connections, but sustaining relationships and using these, and what you mentioned in terms of these types of working groups that are happening and committees on the interim is, I think, gonna help with that.
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But Lam- Lamar, I wanted to come back to you just a little bit in terms of the framework and conceptual idea on this.
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So as I understand it, the World Fire Congress will happen every two years, and then these working groups are going to be doing the work in between or something like that.
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Is that sort of how this is structured, and then they're gonna have a type of deliverable or set of recommendations in between that? Yes, that's exactly right, Kyle, and thank you for pointing that out.
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The idea is to make sure that we don't lose that forward motion between meetings, so the working groups, communities of practice are going to report outAt the following meeting, in this case in '26, those colleagues around the table will hear reports out from the working groups re- whether it's, "Oh, we held three or four webinars, and they were attended by X countries, and we talked about these themes," or it's a, "We developed a position statement on wildfire, uh, urban interface, and this is to whom we submitted it in the United Nations, and this is how it was received."
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Um, but those working groups and those communities of practice will stand down in '26, and new ones will be developed for the '26 to '28 time period.
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And that idea was critical to ensure that you don't lose interest, [laughs] you get those folks on a kind of task force mentality. They're in, they're out, they give the report, and they go on about their business.
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And as we all know, sitting around this table or the pod virtual table, that the issues change, and the things that the three of us are talking about today may or may not matter in four years. We don't know. So it's...
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We have to make sure that we're temporal and we're agile, and we're making the most use of those experts as possible.
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So when you're talking about these topics, Lamar, it makes me think that there's probably, I'm guessing and, but I, I think I'm correct, that there's also misperceptions, and we say World Fire Congress, that it's only like fire trucks and apparatus and ladders, all sorts of stuff.
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But, uh, curiously, when we talk about the World Fire Congress and the planning that you're doing moving into 2026, there's a lot of really broad themes that are also discussed.
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I understand there's emerging technologies, climate, sort of security issues that are also brought up. So what is the range of topics that are being discussed and shared amongst the professionals at this event?
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Yeah, that's a really good point. So we're everything from climate change through to emerging technologies as, as you say, Carl, and there's a really strong point here.
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And this world is well informed by subject matter experts. Not all of those exist within the fire and rescue service.
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So one of the things that the US government do really is they have been able to bring in some real subject matter experts, global leading experts on climate change into some of these debates.
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That's really elevated the level of discussion. What we learnt very quickly is that different countries have got different ways of drawing from that expertise.
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So what, from a UK perspective, if we need to lean in and to bring an expert from the UK Met Office that sits in a different government department into, for that debate, we can now do that because we've got the ability to match subject matter experts at, at the right level.
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This isn't just a, a mechanism where you have professionals talking to each other.
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This is informed by world-leading subject matter experts, and that really allows the debate to be broad enough to be strategic and contribute, but not too tactical, not too technical.
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This isn't about how you put out specific fires. There are mechanisms to do that.
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What this is about is shaping government policy and trying to understand what the fundamental problems are, and that could be a systems issue, it could be a policy issue.
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And the reason why I think, and Lamar will have a view on this, the reason why I think the first World Fire Congress was so successful is the fact it was a government-to-government initiative, and that was done deliberately to make sure that the senior policy officials within respective governments are invited.
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Because if you don't have political legislative frameworks that enable practical solutions to be delivered, then actually you're not really gonna be solving the problem.
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Defining the problem, getting the right people around the table, but then bringing the expertise to the fore from wherever it's best placed is, is one of the things that I found really refreshing with this.
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We've done this before in terms of professional networks having discussions with each other, and that's great, but this is a strategic engagement. It is a World Congress. It's not a conference.
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[gentle music] Hey there, just a quick pause in our show for a second. Did you know that most of our guests on the Crisis Lab podcast have courses inside of Crisis Lab?
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Now let's get back to the show. It's really interesting, Lee, that you mentioned that because we're getting into the mechanisms or the mechanics of cooperation, and that I think that's really important.
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I want to emphasize that, and I do wanna go to you, to Lamar, to just, to unpack that a little bit because I think it's also pertinent in our diplomacy discussion. But Lee,
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before we do that, there's other organizations out there like International Association of Fire Chiefs and, and things like that, and of course, there's other fire service organizations around the world as well.
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How would you make a distinction between the two? And I...
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To a certain extent, I think you might answered that question already at the very last part of your remarks, but I'd like to just unpack that a little bit more just because I think that could be confusing or, and for some people, in terms of the just the naming convention, they'll say, "We have an international association.
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How is a World Fire Congress different?" But I- Yeah... from what I hear you explaining it, they are very different.
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Yeah, and one of the things that has been a key to the success here is the engagement and inclusion of those respective associations as part of the design and, and as part of this executive steering committee.
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This very much was shaped by and informed by an executive steering committee that did have associations that were plugged into that to shape it and inform the content.
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We started at design stage with key stakeholders.So this wasn't something that sat on the side and was developed just by the US government, and the US said, "This is a great idea. Let's make this happen."
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There was a catalyst for change that came very much from Dr. Lori and US government, absolutely.
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But the way in which that was delivered was done through and with respective organizations, and it, it very much feels like that. It always felt like a partnership.
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It felt like we were co-creating something really important, and I think that continues. The executive steering committee will still continue to drive the agenda for World Fire Congress twenty twenty-six.
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So that sense of collective focus, bringing together the expertise from within respective organizations and associations, but putting that within a global mechanism that allows that to be shared and shaped at a macro level is really powerful.
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Just one bit to add there, that Lee is exactly right. That executive steering committee is the driver. They were also the provider of the names in a great deal of instances, so we knew...
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Because before we even set about the congress, we had to figure out a list. Who will we invite?
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Because as he mentioned, this wasn't a conference that we just posted on the web and said, "Pay us six hundred dollars and you can come."
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It was by invitation only, and it was very selective, but the list didn't even exist.
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So we relied a great deal on that executive steering committee to provide us the lists of those particular countries that pertain to their associations, to their stakeholders, because that in itself would have stopped the Congress had we not been able to rely on the executive steering committee.
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Yeah, thanks for that, Lamarr, and I, I did wanna come back to you in terms of what Lee had mentioned about these mechanisms and needing that government buy-in and stakeholder engagement.
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Very happy to hear these associations were contributing to, to development of the World Fire Congress.
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But in terms of when we focus on these types of initiatives and we think about them in terms of disaster diplomacy and, and diplomacy overall, this is one mechanism that, Lee, you also mentioned is, is fostering cooperation, fostering the exchange of experts, fostering the knowledge sharing and engagements.
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How important are these types of mechanisms in terms of overall disaster diplomacy, Lamarr? Oh, my gosh. That's such a great question, Kyle, and I can't stress enough the importance.
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As we discussed in this course over the several modules, having pre-positioned a relationship means less disaster response time taken up in determining your relationship. Now you have your people already set up.
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You have these relationships built. You have MOUs in place perhaps. You have, in this case, your colleagues from your community of practice in the World Fire Congress.
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And with these no notice events, you can now quickly gather your resource sharing, your knowledge sharing, whatever it is that you need to respond because you've built those relationships and you've prepared beforehand.
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I cannot stress enough the importance of taking those blinders off as an emergency manager and looking around and saying, "Wow, there's a whole world out there that's doing the same thing I am, colleagues of mine that are around the world that I don't even know."
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They need to pre-position themselves. Just like we stage water and food and tarps, we have to pre-stage our relationships as well.
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I think one of the value adds to that, at least in terms of my experiences, generally during larger scale crisis, is that you always have the mechanisms of cooperation that you can request assistance, so y-your Atlantic Disaster Response Coordination Center from NATO or EU Civil Protection Mechanism or the UN.
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There's all sorts of international mechanisms that are there. But to your point, Lamarr, we can always send a request, but you can always give somebody a call, right? Yeah.
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So once you have those established relationships, you can say, "I've sent a request, but I need to talk to you."
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And I find that most of the people are generally very receptive to the idea, but you have to have these networks in place, to your point. Or how about, "I'm about to send you a request," and it's just a WhatsApp note.
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"Hey, something's coming your way. Please pay attention. Please take a look. Look out for me because this is coming."
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When I think about that in terms of the international cooperation, Lee, I wanna get your perspective on that as well. What are you seeing, especially in terms of you yourself?
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You said you've worked in various different nations and, and worked bilaterally in the fire service with different organizations. I'd love to hear your perspective as well.
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Yeah, absolutely, and I think just before I, I do that, Kyle, just picking up on that point you made about the mechanisms for support when an event happens are established and they're well established and, and they work effectively and they're, they're tried and tested.
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I think what we were able to do is to start to build resilience at an earlier stage by thinking ahead, understanding the problems, sharing expertise, and, and enabling countries to be more resilient before a, an event, uh, happens.
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So wildfire is a really good example.
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Understanding some of the preventative a-as well as mitigation arrangements that are in place with other nations is useful knowledge, and then that then means that you're less likely to have a, a major event because you've prepared for it and you've got in place a more resilient system locally.
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Obviously, that support mechanism will always be there either at bilateral, multilateral basis.
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But specifically to your point about, um, how things work, I think there's always a tendency, especially when people are busy, to focus on your world, whatever that world is, your responsibilities, whether they're statutory responsibilities or whether they're-- it's what you've always done.
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But I think increasingly some of the problems that we're experiencing are multifaceted. They're not able to be solved by any one agency, any one country. These are big issues that we're facing.
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Climate change is probably the, the, the best example. So we can't do that on our own.
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We shouldn't try and do it on our own.So working together and recognizing that you haven't got all the answers, and by reaching out, trying to learn from others, and trying to give and receive information is, is key.
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And that then builds that relationship, and like with all things, as we know, if you've got strong relationships, then actually, uh, you can solve almost anything.
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There's no point in having processes and procedures in place. Primarily, you've got to trust people that are coming in.
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If people are coming in to help, they need to understand your culture, they need to understand the way in which you operate.
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And coming in and saying, "This is how we do this in our country," won't always land well if you're going in to support somebody else. It's a pull basis, it's not a push. It's...
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And I think you get to that point by understanding each other, and that comes from building relationships in peace time so that when you do need to draw on those mechanisms, it fits seamlessly into a solution.
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Just two seconds here, Kyle. I'll add that what Lee is talking about is diplomating. It is an action verb. You cannot just sit back and it... and think, "My foreign partners will help me.
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If something happens, we can rely on that." Absolutely not. You also have to maintain those relationships, sustain them, check on people, "How are you? I read you had an earthquake. Do you need anything?"
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Even if it's just a chat, I can't tell you how often we've done that from the US government perspective, and now on my own as an independent consultant.
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I still check on colleagues around the world when I read that they had something going on. And just saying, "Hey, I'm thinking of you.
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I can't send you a truck or a ladder or whatever it else you need, or people, but I'm thinking of you. And if you wanna talk, or if you need anything, just give me a shout. I'm a WhatsApp away.
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It doesn't matter what time it is. It doesn't matter if it's off hours or weekends or... Because that's not how emergency managers roll anyway. We're always available." So you have to put that effort forward as well.
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You can't always expect, "Oh, they'll come help me because I had an earthquake or something." No. You need to also check on your colleagues and be present and diplomat around the world.
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Yeah, that's an interesting point, Lamar, and also from Lee. I have, like, a two-part question as we close out.
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One is really when I hear about this, the idea, and I, I think it's a great initiative, as with all things, it's also an issue of sustainability. So what are the risks in terms of this program?
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How can we ensure it stays sustainable, especially for these more... These are great initiatives, but they're, they're also diplomatic initiatives, right? So how can we ensure that this is sustained?
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And you mentioned part of it about government buy-in. How can we ensure it's sustained in the future moving into 2026 and the next Congress?
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And then, I guess the second part of that question is, what is really the future of disaster diplomacy then?
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So are we gonna see more mechanisms like this, better sharing across borders, information sharing, expertise, and things like that? Those are a couple of questions I have.
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And so Lee, I'll start with you, and then Lamar, I'll come back to you to, to close out. You got it. Yeah. No, absolutely.
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And I think in terms of the sustainability, it is true that there is a significant cost associated with running these events, and that is a, a challenge, but, but also an opportunity because we do have sponsors that want to be part of it.
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They, they see the benefit of this.
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So if I use the World Bank in particular in terms of sustainability, the World Bank is fantastic at enabling some developing countries that, that, that might not otherwise be able to afford the travel and accommodation.
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What we're not trying to do is to create something that is only available for those that can afford to come and sit around the table, and the World Bank and other sponsors enable that support, and they play a, a valuable part in enabling the debate.
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And we're very lucky because there was a significant sponsorship in... for the World Fire Congress in 2020. But that isn't necessarily the only way that it can be done.
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If there are opportunities for government-to-government discussions and providing some funding, then, then maybe that's something that needs to be worked through.
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Certainly, if the National Fire Chiefs Council, and if Mark Hardinger was on this call, the chair of the National Fire Chiefs Council, Mark is aware of the costs of running this event, and we need to think about how we, we manage that in a way that ensures the event is successful and it does all the things that we need it to do.
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But we've got to work within the budget that's available, and the National Fire Chiefs Council is a charity. It's a professional network.
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So there are some risks, but there are also solutions, and that primarily comes from having the right partners around the table at the early stage, and that was proven to be successful in '24.
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So we want to build on that. We want to make that sustainable moving forward, and we're confident that's going to be the case. What do you think about the future, Lee?
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Do you think there's gonna be more platforms like this? Do you think this is gonna be something that starts to grow? Yeah.
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So I think the challenges caused by climate change, for example, is going to mean there, there is a need for, for more debate, more discussion, more sharing of knowledge.
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That global cooperation and working to address those climate change mitigation strategies, that requires action over that is much broader than any government or any agency's responsibilities.
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So I think the world that we're in is increasingly connected, and that's presents all sorts of opportunities but also challenges.
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So, so I think we do live in a connected world, and increasingly, and what we do in one part of the world has an impact in another, and I think there's a recognition of that.
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So I think we recognize that there's a need for us to work better together. So I do think there will be more of a, uh, move towards bilateral, multilateral discussions, and I think that's important.
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What we've got to do, though, is make sure that there's sufficient focus on the delivery, whether that's about shaping policy, whether it's about turning those discussions into action.
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Because if that doesn't happen, I don't think World Fire Congress will continue.
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If it becomes a talking shop, if it becomes another mechanism just to-share ideas and there's no action that follows from it, I think it would have missed an opportunity. Yeah, I think that's a great point.
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So Lamar, over to you to close us out. You've been our champion of disaster diplomacy and Crisis Lab support. So how do you see sustainment? And then how do you see the future of platforms like these? Yeah.
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Thank you, Kyle. Two things.
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The sustainment is that we have to institutionalize diplomating, meaning we have to take our blinders off, but we have to make sure our leadership buys in on that, that we are aligning with our organization, whatever it may be, whether you're private sector, you're government, you're nonprofit, you have to align with your strategic plan, your mission set.
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You have to align that international diplomacy or national diplomacy.
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So I, I'll offer another perspective is if you take that World Fire Congress template and bring it down to your region, whatever in the world you, wherever you are, you can do that diplomating in your region as well.
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And I'll give you an example. I just came from the second of three regional dialogues that were held in Mexico.
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Because their fire service is quite fractured, it's not under a government umbrella or national guide, so they've gotten together and said, "You know what?
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We're gonna get together on a regional level and have dialogues at the same sort of thing that was held at the World Fire Congress." It can be applied, that model can be applied throughout the world.
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So I think that's a wonderful way to institutionalize that action of diplomating. And as far as sustaining and, and what's our future, I think our future is technology.
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Podcasts like what we're doing right now is diplomating. Now we can reach an audience that we wouldn't have even thought about.
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If you're focused on, "I have to go to this conference, I have to go speak at this technical panel," eh, okay, that's great, but now I can reach who knows who.
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The more webinars we do, the more amplification we do of our situational awareness, our no-notice events, our planning for resilience, whatever the, the case may be, get out there and use the technology that is available.
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Because couple of years ago, even during COVID, there were some areas of the world that you couldn't rely on bandwidth. You couldn't rely, "Oh, I can't... My camera doesn't work here. This and that."
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That's not the case anymore. There are folks in very far-flung rural communities that get online no problem. So let's get at them. Let's leverage the technology, and that to me is the future of diplomating.
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Of course, this one-on-one, Lee and I working side by side opening boxes for an event, hey, there's nothing that compares to that. I 100%, I'm a people person. I get it.
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But let's leverage the technology that's available and really reach as many people as possible. Okay. Thanks for that, Lamar. It's a great way to wrap up. Absolutely.
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So we're running at just about time, but that's all the time we have for today.
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Again, a huge thanks to our guests, Lamar Medlock and also Lee Howell, for sharing your knowledge and experience as we discuss disaster diplomacy, and specifically, I think a great example with the World Fire Congress.
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So thank you very much, Lamar and Lee, for joining us today. Thank you, Kyle. It's been wonderful. Thanks, Kyle. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to the Crisis Lab podcast.
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[outro music]
