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Welcome to season three of Courage and Confidence with Lee Iggledon and Michelle Rogers, the podcast in which Lee and I build up our own courage and confidence while helping you to do the same thing with some handy tips, techniques, and some inspiring stories from some very special guests.
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One of these giant pigeons might land on my roof and make me jump again.
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That sometimes happens.
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We've got blue sky now.
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I've got the heating on though.
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I've got must admit I've put the heating on in here because I'm freezing.
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It's ridiculous, isn't it?
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Hello and welcome to our latest episode of Courage and Confidence.
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And today's episode is entitled Bouncing Forward.
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Now we all know the phrase bouncing back.
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We talk about bouncing back from failure or from the hard stuff that life throws at us.
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And it sounds like quite a good thing, doesn't it?
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But what if there is something better than bouncing back, Lee?
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Well, I've always called it bouncing back, but when you called it bouncing forwards, you know, because I think I had a disappointment, and I said, doesn't matter, I'm gonna bounce back.
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You said bounce forward, and I loved it.
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Why have I never called it bouncing forwards before?
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Ah, well, the thing is, it might ask a bit more of us to bounce forward.
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Um, but I think it can help change how we think about stress and anxiety and those things that we worry about.
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Um, and I think uh today we can explore the lessons that we kind of maybe learnt as younger people that helped us to survive back then, but maybe they're holding us back a bit now.
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So let's talk about bouncing forward.
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Um, so uh I'm Michelle Rogers and my co-host is Lee Igledon.
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Hello.
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That was a good hello.
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So Lee, if you uh if you have a think back to uh the conversation we were having when we were talking about bouncing back, do you remember why I didn't I didn't love that phrase bouncing back?
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Um I can't remember per se, but I think you were trying to encourage me to be maybe think forwards, to think, to think about the future more than thinking about what had happened.
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Yeah.
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Think about things you know going forwards.
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In a future sense, yeah.
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I mean, I think the issue I've got with bouncing back is it suggests that where we were before was the right place.
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Oh you know, if we if I'm saying let's take a step back, let's go back to where we were and start again.
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Now, there are some instances where that's true.
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I mean, if you think about um, if you think about you're going on a journey, say you're going for a walk through some woodland and there's lots of different paths, okay?
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And you're going for a couple of minutes and you think, I'm not sure this is right.
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I think we might have taken a wrong turn here.
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Often the most useful thing is to go back to where you started from because you know that was right, you know, you know that you were outside the visitor center or whatever, and there was a signpost, and you and you can try again.
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So that in that instance makes absolute sense to go back to where you were before.
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But sometimes when there's hard stuff going on in our work or hard stuff going on in our life, returning back to where we were at the beginning of that isn't always helpful.
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Oh my gosh, I I can't believe I never saw it like that.
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Because I don't want to bounce back to where I was at the beginning of this year.
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No way, you know.
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Okay.
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Um so that makes total sense.
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Good.
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Okay.
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I want new stuff, not the old stuff.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So bouncing back suggests that we're going back to a kind of baseline that might in itself not have been terribly helpful.
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Yeah.
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So is there something that you could tell us about where that would be relevant for something you said sort of you wouldn't want to go back to where you were earlier this year?
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Well, for those who have listened to the last few episodes, there was a couple of really big things I was dealing with on a personal level.
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Um, one was um the estate of a good friend of ours who died last year, um, was in the process of being sorted, and my my husband basically um was part of that.
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But it um it was crappy stuff, yeah, to have to deal with.
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But we also had the opportunity to move into a house, um, which I was very, very excited about.
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Everything all was was perfect about it, the location, um, what it would involve, who who who who the house belonged to, um, and we were all really excited about that, but um for one reason and another, it didn't happen.
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Um, through no fault of anybody, really, but it didn't happen.
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And um I just decided that I was going to, well, okay, these two big personal things, I'm just gonna concentrate on work, so I'll I'll bounce back.
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But bouncing forward means that it's almost brings a sense of excitement because it's all gonna be exciting and new and shiny, and I can, you know, I can um really get stuck in.
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Whereas if I bounce if I was using the phrase bouncing back, I would still be in that state of limbo, you know, not knowing what was happening, not having any control, um, and the disappointment and sadness.
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And I don't want to return to that again.
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Okay, so let me give you an example from my own life.
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Um, when I was younger, um I was a pretty academic child, um, but I used to get quite stressed out before exams, um, you know, and um I would get myself all worried and wouldn't sleep very well, and you know, I'd be revising like crazy or whatever.
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Um but I always did really well in my exams.
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And after a while, I came to sort of associate those two behaviors.
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So unless I was worried and unless I was stressing out and doing a ton of last-minute revision, I wouldn't get a good grade.
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So I found it very difficult to undo that belief.
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I became almost kind of superstitious about having to get all stressed out before an exam.
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Wow.
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Okay.
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So that was a sort of unhelpful behavior that was in my head, and then I can't remember what happened now, but there was a reason that um I think it was for one of my languages uh uh A levels, there was a reason that something happened at home or whatever, and I couldn't prepare as much as I usually would for the oral exam.
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And that really I was really freaking out about it because I was thinking, you know, this is this is what I do.
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I get stressed and I get worried about it anyway.
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So I just had to turn up and I did this exam and it went absolutely fine, and I did just as well, arguably better than I would than I would have done without all that nervous preparation and not sleeping and you know, last-minute revision, flicking through little index cards with notes on.
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And so that helped me to realize that my success in an exam didn't depend on having this really negative experience in the run-up to the exam.
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Okay, so I kind of broke that habit of needing to do that because what I was doing was every time I came up for a new exam, I would bounce back to that behaviour.
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I would bounce back to poor behavior of kind of not sleeping, not eating properly, whatever.
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Um, but that one instance where it forced me to do something different helped me realize that actually I was just being kind of superstitious.
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It's like, you know, always wearing your green socks or whatever, if you're gonna go and play football or whatever.
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The only way you're gonna score a goal is if you're wearing the right socks.
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And so actually noticing that behaviour and noticing that it didn't actually make any difference and was just making me feel rubbish and actually making my family feel a bit rubbish as well, because I'm sure I wasn't very nice to live with around exam time.
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Um, that helped me to sort of bounce forward to a healthier place, to a more positive place, and helped me to sort of grow and to learn that I didn't have to stress myself out, I just needed to um do the preparation.
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So I realized I did well in my exams because I, you know, prepared all year, not just because of the crazy behaviour in the two or three days before.
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So bouncing forward or and bouncing back isn't necessarily about picking yourself up and dusting yourself off, which is how I always saw it as.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I think I think that is sort of how we interpret it.
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But I think when we look at it, when we think about why why do I feel like I have to go back to something, perhaps sometimes because it's something we've come to rely on.
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That's the way, you know, you imagine sort of when you're a kid and you're disappointed in a friendship or whatever, you're like, Well, I'm better off on my own because nobody likes me or whatever.
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So you sort of go back to what was before, even if it wasn't fun or healthy or or useful.
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Yeah, and I suppose looking at it from my point of view, from a work um situation with well shot.
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So, you know, if I was saying um bouncing back, maybe it's me thinking, oh, maybe we should have a membership.
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Maybe because say something isn't working.
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I'm not saying it's not working, but say something isn't working.
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And I think, oh, well, to make it work, I've got to bounce back to what we did have that used to work.
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Um isn't necessarily the right thing to do, that I should just find another way of making something work that's forwards.
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You know, it could be totally different to what I'm doing now and what I did in the past.
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You don't have to go backwards.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, if you think about if we keep bouncing back to behavior that we used to do, we're kind of always in a loop, aren't we?
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We're just always going round and round in circles.
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Whereas if we bounce forward, we're moving from that place of this difficult thing that's just happened.
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We're moving forward to uh another opportunity.
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So we can keep making forward progress rather than repeating the same thing.
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Yeah.
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There's that expression, isn't there, about um how something like, you know, madness is doing the same thing time and time again and expecting a different result.
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Yeah, yeah.
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You know, like you just pointed out really uh importantly there that the circumstances in which your business operates have changed.
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So to bounce back to something that used to work won't necessarily work again.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Bouncing forward makes me feel really excited.
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That's good.
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It makes me feel even better than the oh look, I've had a disappointment, but I'm gonna pick myself up and you know, dust myself off uh off and keep myself going.
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That just seems a bit meh and a bit this a bit the same.
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But bouncing forwards, oh, it's like exciting and it's wow, and the possibilities are endless.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Because that is the thing about bouncing forwards, is you don't necessarily know where you're going to land.
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Bouncing back is safe, yeah.
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It might not be good, but it's safe, isn't it?
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You know, it's because you know where it was and it might have been miserable or it might have been ineffective or whatever, but at least it's not scary.
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Now, bouncing forward, um, you know, you can describe that as exciting, or you can describe that as scary.
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Yeah, either way, it's a pretty much the same result.
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We're not entirely sure it will work out, but the more we know, the more we try that.
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Yeah, you know, you are you are uh concentrating when you bounce forward, you're concentrating on what have I learned?
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How can I use that to make progress rather than why am I hurt or frustrated or angry?
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Let me go back to who I was before.
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Yeah, and also bouncing back seems to have more of a definitive end, whereas bouncing forwards, it's like infinity yeah, more possibilities, yeah.
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Keep going and going and going, or as bouncing back, there's an end.
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Yeah.
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Well, in my mind, that's how it works anyway.
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No, I I like I like that, and I think it takes it takes a lot of um uh what's the right word here?
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It's self-awareness, really, to notice in that moment, you know, I am uncomfortable with this present situation, I'm disappointed, I'm frustrated, I'm anxious, whatever, and say, okay, what can I learn from this?
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Rather than just regressing to something that was before, what can I learn from this?
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And then how can I continue to move forward?
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Yeah.
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Well, I've learned a lot over the last 12 months, especially the last six months, and that's I don't do personal very well.
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Okay, tell me more about that.
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That um I am much happier, calmer, excited, being in a work situation, okay, a work environment.
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Um I haven't felt comfortable.
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I mean, it's because one of them was quite sad, but um I haven't felt happy is the word taking lots of time for the personal stuff.
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It hasn't felt exciting or and I know one of them, one of the situations, obviously, the house was exciting, and you know, the other one, my friend, was very sad.
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But I'm trying to, I can't really explain this.
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It's almost like um, oh, it's almost like, right, well, I'm done with all the the time off and the personal stuff, you know, whether it's you know, kit shopping for kitchen products or clothing or whatever, I'm much more productive and happy behind my desk at work.
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That's my happy place.
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You know, some you know, really work is my happy place.
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And and when I'm focused on that, I I get things done and I achieve lots and I'm happy.
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But having to navigate both personal and work all at the same time and not have any control over the personal stuff is what I haven't enjoyed.
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Yeah, and I think you have had a bit of a perfect storm of work and personal stuff going on recently, and it's really difficult to deal with both of those at the same time.
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I think it's great that you find work really fulfilling and you know exciting, but I think um it's and this is where this podcast gets really personal.
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Um, I think you you can't use that as a way of not dealing with your personal life.
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And and what I do want to draw out is that I I am perfectly aware of a couple of things that you are doing right now to address issues in your personal life that you can take some control over.
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Um, and before we move on to that, I just wanted to say something that I noticed about you when you were dealing with the disappointment about the house is yeah, you were disappointed you weren't weren't moving into this particular house.
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But you did also take some time to say, what have I learned from this process about going to the house?
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So I remember that you were you were really busy uh decluttering um because you didn't want to take a load of rubbish with you.
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Yeah.
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Um and I remember you said to me, So you were going to move into a much bigger space, and then you know, now you're select you're staying in a smaller space, and you said, I still don't want a load of clutter, I still, you know, I still want to be sort of minimalist, uh, you know, and and have the things that we, you know, know to be useful and believe to be uh beautiful to quote William Morris.
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And I think what I see from you there is you bounced forward from the disappointment over the house.
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Yeah.
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Um, so we decluttered when we thought we were moving, and then we actually had all our stuff moved down to the house, and it's that's since come back to where we are now.
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And I decluttered even more because we'd been living without that stuff.
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We only we only had the bare minimum, and it yeah, and it has proved to me you do not need lots of stuff.
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Yeah.
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And so it's either got to be useful or bring me joy.
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Yeah.
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And that's the same with my personal time off.
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Okay, we'll use that as an example.
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Um, because people said to me, I've always said to me, you need to take time off, you need to take time off.
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So I'd take time off and I'd just be at home and I'd be sort of quite bored, really, um, because I didn't have anything intentional to do.
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So I've decided I'm not gonna take time off unless I have something specific that I intend to do, whether that's cleaning the house or cleaning my home or doing batch cooking or going on an adventure, you know, rather than just oh, I've been told that I have to take time off.
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So I'm gonna stay home today.
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Um, when I know that really I'd be more happy and yeah, more happy, happier to be at my desk.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And to me, that there you're you are challenging my comment, you know, or where I said, you know, I need you not to ignore your personal life because the the the work life is is easier.
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So you are there demonstrating I'm not ignoring it, I'm just kind of reshaping it.
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Yeah, um, you know, and I think that's really great.
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And the other thing that I have really noticed that you have taken some control over, um, and I know we've talked about this before, is but is your you know, your health journey, um, you know, and all the work you are doing there.
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And, you know, that hasn't always been smooth, and things haven't, you know, every week hasn't delivered the results that you might have been hoping for.
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But at no point have I seen you say, Well, I'm just gonna, I'm I'm just gonna dust myself off and go back to how I used to live because that was okay.
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I've made a really conscious decision not to think like that.
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Yeah.
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And I stop myself and I and I think, what do I want more?
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Do I want this packet of crisps or the sausage roll?
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Or you know, and and I'm starting to see results now, not just in the weight loss, but the way I move.
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It's easier, it's getting easier every day.
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But that's another thing too.
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I can I'm more likely to stick at my healthy progress and goals and challenges if I am at work.
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Because if I was at home and I was didn't have any specific thing to do and I was bored, I would probably eat and not move as much.
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You know, I'm not talking about, you know, never taking any time off work again.
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I'm talking about that taking time off to to not not necessarily to achieve something, but it has to be not just to always stay under the under the duvet cover or in front of the television.
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Yeah.
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And you know what?
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If at some point you feel like you need that day, you need a duvet day, then I know that you will have chosen to have that day.
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Yeah, and now you would say I absolutely intend to have a restful day reading my book under the duvet.
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Because that will be intentional.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, not because oh, I don't know how to, I don't know what to do, or procrastinating, or resisting.
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You know, I'm putting a lot more thought and effort into what I think about, what I tell myself, those limiting beliefs again.
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Yeah.
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And I think a key part of bouncing forward is learning to recognise and use the concrete evidence of your own competences or your own sort of abilities and capabilities.
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And I think sometimes when we get in stuck in a cycle of overthinking, that's that we struggle to do that.
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We struggle to learn from the evidence.
00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:14.640
So we kind of regress to what worked before.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:29.200
But if you can actually say to yourself, okay, when I look at you know, this couple of days I took off, what does the way I behaved in those two days tell me about how I use my time off?
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:39.839
That gives you the evidence to kind of break that cycle of I take time off, I just waste it procrastinating, resisting, vegging out, however, however you want to describe it.
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:55.279
The evidence suggests to you that when you take some time off because you're gonna go and visit a friend, or you're gonna go, you know, on a day out with your husband or something, or you know, you're gonna do a task, you're gonna clean the house from top to bottom, then time off works for you.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:56.240
Yeah.
00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:02.480
And you know, sometimes I know that I need a duvet day.
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:04.000
I'm gonna call it a duvet day.
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:07.920
I'm not necessarily underneath the duvet, but I'm gonna call it a duvet day.
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:15.599
Just sometimes I know, especially if I'm trying to work through a problem that I'm trying to find a solution for.
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:20.240
I work very different to my husband and very different to my business partner.
00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:25.759
They think and solve problems in a completely different way to me.
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:31.119
I need quiet space and time to think.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:36.480
And quite often, that is underneath the do having a duvet day.
00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:36.880
Yeah.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:42.400
Um that's how I think and I've and I figure out a solution.
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:44.559
And it and it always works.
00:25:44.799 --> 00:26:07.279
It it really does always work, but yet if I came to work, I would get busy doing things, and I wouldn't be trying to solve the solution unless I was talking to somebody like you, or you know, my my other people that I work closely with who I can, you know, I've I talk to think.
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:08.240
Yes.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:17.279
So if I'm talking to you, I can come up with a solution, or if I'm at home underneath the duvet, I'm talking to myself.
00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:18.160
Yeah.
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:18.960
Yeah.
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:23.440
So and I think again, that's intentional, isn't it?
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:37.279
Yeah, you you're you're making a decision rather than being on autopilot, uh, you know, where you just kind of return to the position you were in before all the time, you're actually interrupting that cycle and saying, okay, what's working here?
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:38.400
What isn't working?
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:40.480
What would I like to be doing differently?
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:47.440
You know, and you're taking a kind of conscious action, particularly when you do have like a limiting belief.
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:56.880
Like, you know, you talked about them, like I said, about I you got into this thing where I had to get myself in an absolute tizzy for three days before an exam, otherwise I wouldn't do well.
00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:08.000
It's really important that we interrupt those kind of old lessons which just come back into our minds and say, hang on a second, is that useful?
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:09.519
Is that true?
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:10.960
Does this help me?
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:12.720
Does this serve me anymore?
00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:31.599
And you know, the more we do that, the more we kind of wake ourselves up in the middle of that autopilot response, the more likely we are to be able to take that evidence to learn that lesson and bounce forward rather than just kind of it's it's great to dust yourself down and get back up and start again.
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:35.920
But wouldn't it be great to do that with a bit more forward energy?
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:36.640
Yeah.
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:49.759
So one thing I want to know, I've never heard that phrase bouncing forward, and everything that you've talked about, I've not read or heard about this before.
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:57.200
Is this a Michelle ism or is this something you've learned from somewhere?
00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:04.000
Uh so a few years ago, ages ago now, I did a um a course.
00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:06.720
Um, have you had a future learn?
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:12.240
They do um so it's a website, and you can do loads of different courses on there.
00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:17.200
And and some of them, if you want to get audited for it, you have to pay, but you can do a load of stuff for free.
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:23.200
And there was a course on there, I think it was Deakin University, and they did a course on professional resilience.
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:34.799
Um, and as part of when you do courses with Future Learn, you have to sort of participate in um various kind of chat forums, and they will ask you certain questions.
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:43.119
And um somebody asked, I think the question was, how do we define resilience?
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:48.960
And a lot of people defined resilience as the ability to bounce back.
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:56.079
And then I read one comment, and uh somebody had written, I'm not a fan of bounce back.
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:01.920
That suggests to me that the resilience ball brings you back to where you were, but I don't think it does.
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:08.400
Hopefully, you face the future more able and wiser by building up your resilience.
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:13.039
Um, and I just thought that was a really lovely way of describing it.
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:33.039
And then somebody else then said when you do that, you can use those circumstances, so taking an exam or losing out in a house or whatever, not to be sort of things that trip you up, but actually stepping stones that you can kind of move forward on.
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:35.839
And I just found that a really helpful thing.
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:45.519
So since then, sort of eight or nine years ago, I've been trying to use that idea of bouncing forward rather than bouncing back.
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:54.559
It's I think it's brilliant, and so I take absolutely no credit for coming up with that concept, but you know, I love to spread that concept.
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:58.799
Whoever that person was, I wish I'd made a note of their name, but thank you very much because we've made a defense.
00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:13.920
But you know that thing, have you ever seen that uh Japanese art um with the broken ceramic when they put it back together with with gold?
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:19.680
Yeah, okay, it's called something like Kinsakori or Kintsugi, I think is another name for it.
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:21.200
And I love that.
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:33.519
So if you imagine this, this you know, bowl that's been broken, but you've stuck it back together with this this lacquer that or glue that's got gold in it, you've now got something that looked even more beautiful than before.
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:40.160
And so I think for me, that kind of visually sums up this idea of bouncing forward.
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:50.880
So we're not ignoring our struggles or ignoring the challenges we've had in the past, but we're using them, we're kind of valuing the lessons that we learned from them to make something even better.
00:30:51.119 --> 00:31:03.839
Yeah, and that's a really perfect analogy to the house because I absolutely love, I mean, love where we live now and how we live.
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:04.400
Okay.
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:05.519
I love it.
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:13.440
There was, I wouldn't have even have contemplated moving apart from where this house was.
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:16.799
You know, it was only just down the road.
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:28.480
It was um it was perfect for my husband, and and we could have still carried on um being involved with the people who we, you know, live and work with now.
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:42.640
But it so it was perfect, but now that it's not happening, I'm not sad anymore because I'm I'm still happy with where we live and how we live.
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:48.000
So it's not broken, it's just been put back together, filled with gold.
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:53.039
Um, and yeah, bouncing forwards.
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:53.920
Yeah.
00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:57.759
That makes me feel quite emotional to hear you say that, actually.
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:02.240
I think that's a really lovely um reflection on the process.
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:08.960
Because obviously, you know, I've been sort of witnessing the whole house process as your friend.
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:11.519
And there was a time when it was really tough for you, wasn't it?
00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:22.319
But to hear you say now that you know you're you're staying where where you live and that it's kind of filled with gold now, I think that's a really lovely, really lovely image to have.
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:23.839
Thank you for sharing that.
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:33.519
Yeah, so you know, um I've just told my husband that um he needs to hurry up and sort my veggie garden out again.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:34.799
Yeah, that's true.
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:36.559
So you can get back into doing that.
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:36.960
Yeah.
00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:47.359
So I think I think that bouncing forwards, it may be in the moment, it may be more difficult.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:48.240
Okay.
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:57.839
It takes some self-awareness, it takes you being honest with yourself and challenging sort of thoughts you've had in the past.
00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:00.880
It takes courage and confidence.
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:13.440
It does indeed, it does indeed, and and it takes the recognition that you sometimes you just need to stop for a few seconds and think, what's actually going on here?
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:15.279
What am I learning?
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.440
How am I gonna react to this?
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:22.079
You know, how can I move forward rather than just go back to a previous situation?
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:23.039
Yeah.
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:34.160
So if you're listening to this right now and you can think of an example where in the past you bounced back and you've been really pleased to bounce back because you know you've been demonstrating resilience.
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:48.720
Um, I'd like to ask you whether or not this idea of bouncing forward fills you with dread or whether it fills you with uh a bit of optimism or excitement, as uh as Lee described.
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:58.319
Um, if there's somebody you know that you think needs to hear this, um maybe you'd share the episode with them and and leave us a review or leave us a comment.
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:07.359
But um I think Lee has just summed that up lovely in a lovely way with her uh uh her house filled with gold.
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:10.480
So I think we should probably leave it there for today.
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:11.519
What do you think, Lee?
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:25.280
I think that that's perfect, and thank you so much for coming up with that phrase because I'm gonna use it and think about it almost daily, I'd say.
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:40.159
And I'm gonna I'm going to tell other people or suggest to other people that you know when that whenever I hear somebody saying the words bounce back, I'm saying no, you should be bouncing forwards.
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:46.079
Well, on that note, everybody, take care of yourselves and keep bouncing forward.
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:46.960
Goodbye.
00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:48.079
Bye-bye.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:16.320
Welcome to season three of Courage and Confidence with Lee Iggledon and Michelle Rogers, the podcast in which Lee and I build up our own courage and confidence while helping you to do the same thing with some handy tips, techniques, and some inspiring stories from some very special guests.
00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:22.239
One of these giant pigeons might land on my roof and make me jump again.
00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:24.160
That sometimes happens.
00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:26.000
We've got blue sky now.
00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:29.519
I've got the heating on though.
00:00:29.839 --> 00:00:33.359
I've got must admit I've put the heating on in here because I'm freezing.
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It's ridiculous, isn't it?
00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:53.039
Hello and welcome to our latest episode of Courage and Confidence.
00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:57.439
And today's episode is entitled Bouncing Forward.
00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:01.280
Now we all know the phrase bouncing back.
00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:08.000
We talk about bouncing back from failure or from the hard stuff that life throws at us.
00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:11.200
And it sounds like quite a good thing, doesn't it?
00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:16.879
But what if there is something better than bouncing back, Lee?
00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:29.680
Well, I've always called it bouncing back, but when you called it bouncing forwards, you know, because I think I had a disappointment, and I said, doesn't matter, I'm gonna bounce back.
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You said bounce forward, and I loved it.
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Why have I never called it bouncing forwards before?
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Ah, well, the thing is, it might ask a bit more of us to bounce forward.
00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:50.640
Um, but I think it can help change how we think about stress and anxiety and those things that we worry about.
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Um, and I think uh today we can explore the lessons that we kind of maybe learnt as younger people that helped us to survive back then, but maybe they're holding us back a bit now.
00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:07.519
So let's talk about bouncing forward.
00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:13.120
Um, so uh I'm Michelle Rogers and my co-host is Lee Igledon.
00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:14.080
Hello.
00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:16.960
That was a good hello.
00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:35.520
So Lee, if you uh if you have a think back to uh the conversation we were having when we were talking about bouncing back, do you remember why I didn't I didn't love that phrase bouncing back?
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Um I can't remember per se, but I think you were trying to encourage me to be maybe think forwards, to think, to think about the future more than thinking about what had happened.
00:02:57.680 --> 00:02:57.919
Yeah.
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Think about things you know going forwards.
00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:03.360
In a future sense, yeah.
00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:10.319
I mean, I think the issue I've got with bouncing back is it suggests that where we were before was the right place.
00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:17.520
Oh you know, if we if I'm saying let's take a step back, let's go back to where we were and start again.
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Now, there are some instances where that's true.
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I mean, if you think about um, if you think about you're going on a journey, say you're going for a walk through some woodland and there's lots of different paths, okay?
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And you're going for a couple of minutes and you think, I'm not sure this is right.
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I think we might have taken a wrong turn here.
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Often the most useful thing is to go back to where you started from because you know that was right, you know, you know that you were outside the visitor center or whatever, and there was a signpost, and you and you can try again.
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So that in that instance makes absolute sense to go back to where you were before.
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But sometimes when there's hard stuff going on in our work or hard stuff going on in our life, returning back to where we were at the beginning of that isn't always helpful.
00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:14.400
Oh my gosh, I I can't believe I never saw it like that.
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Because I don't want to bounce back to where I was at the beginning of this year.
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No way, you know.
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Okay.
00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:29.759
Um so that makes total sense.
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Good.
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Okay.
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I want new stuff, not the old stuff.
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Yeah, exactly.
00:04:35.519 --> 00:04:43.279
So bouncing back suggests that we're going back to a kind of baseline that might in itself not have been terribly helpful.
00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:44.240
Yeah.
00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:53.360
So is there something that you could tell us about where that would be relevant for something you said sort of you wouldn't want to go back to where you were earlier this year?
00:04:53.839 --> 00:05:04.160
Well, for those who have listened to the last few episodes, there was a couple of really big things I was dealing with on a personal level.
00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:20.639
Um, one was um the estate of a good friend of ours who died last year, um, was in the process of being sorted, and my my husband basically um was part of that.
00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:26.639
But it um it was crappy stuff, yeah, to have to deal with.
00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:35.439
But we also had the opportunity to move into a house, um, which I was very, very excited about.
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Everything all was was perfect about it, the location, um, what it would involve, who who who who the house belonged to, um, and we were all really excited about that, but um for one reason and another, it didn't happen.
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Um, through no fault of anybody, really, but it didn't happen.
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And um I just decided that I was going to, well, okay, these two big personal things, I'm just gonna concentrate on work, so I'll I'll bounce back.
00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:33.040
But bouncing forward means that it's almost brings a sense of excitement because it's all gonna be exciting and new and shiny, and I can, you know, I can um really get stuck in.
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Whereas if I bounce if I was using the phrase bouncing back, I would still be in that state of limbo, you know, not knowing what was happening, not having any control, um, and the disappointment and sadness.
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And I don't want to return to that again.
00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:58.399
Okay, so let me give you an example from my own life.
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Um, when I was younger, um I was a pretty academic child, um, but I used to get quite stressed out before exams, um, you know, and um I would get myself all worried and wouldn't sleep very well, and you know, I'd be revising like crazy or whatever.
00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:25.920
Um but I always did really well in my exams.
00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:34.959
And after a while, I came to sort of associate those two behaviors.
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So unless I was worried and unless I was stressing out and doing a ton of last-minute revision, I wouldn't get a good grade.
00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:48.560
So I found it very difficult to undo that belief.
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I became almost kind of superstitious about having to get all stressed out before an exam.
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Wow.
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Okay.
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So that was a sort of unhelpful behavior that was in my head, and then I can't remember what happened now, but there was a reason that um I think it was for one of my languages uh uh A levels, there was a reason that something happened at home or whatever, and I couldn't prepare as much as I usually would for the oral exam.
00:08:27.199 --> 00:08:33.919
And that really I was really freaking out about it because I was thinking, you know, this is this is what I do.
00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:35.759
I get stressed and I get worried about it anyway.
00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:52.879
So I just had to turn up and I did this exam and it went absolutely fine, and I did just as well, arguably better than I would than I would have done without all that nervous preparation and not sleeping and you know, last-minute revision, flicking through little index cards with notes on.
00:08:53.120 --> 00:09:04.639
And so that helped me to realize that my success in an exam didn't depend on having this really negative experience in the run-up to the exam.
00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:17.279
Okay, so I kind of broke that habit of needing to do that because what I was doing was every time I came up for a new exam, I would bounce back to that behaviour.
00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:22.799
I would bounce back to poor behavior of kind of not sleeping, not eating properly, whatever.
00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:31.039
Um, but that one instance where it forced me to do something different helped me realize that actually I was just being kind of superstitious.
00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:37.919
It's like, you know, always wearing your green socks or whatever, if you're gonna go and play football or whatever.
00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:41.039
The only way you're gonna score a goal is if you're wearing the right socks.
00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:55.200
And so actually noticing that behaviour and noticing that it didn't actually make any difference and was just making me feel rubbish and actually making my family feel a bit rubbish as well, because I'm sure I wasn't very nice to live with around exam time.
00:09:55.679 --> 00:10:08.639
Um, that helped me to sort of bounce forward to a healthier place, to a more positive place, and helped me to sort of grow and to learn that I didn't have to stress myself out, I just needed to um do the preparation.
00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:16.799
So I realized I did well in my exams because I, you know, prepared all year, not just because of the crazy behaviour in the two or three days before.
00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:32.000
So bouncing forward or and bouncing back isn't necessarily about picking yourself up and dusting yourself off, which is how I always saw it as.
00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:32.480
Yeah.
00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:37.519
I mean, I think I think that is sort of how we interpret it.
00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:49.120
But I think when we look at it, when we think about why why do I feel like I have to go back to something, perhaps sometimes because it's something we've come to rely on.
00:10:49.279 --> 00:11:02.080
That's the way, you know, you imagine sort of when you're a kid and you're disappointed in a friendship or whatever, you're like, Well, I'm better off on my own because nobody likes me or whatever.
00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:07.600
So you sort of go back to what was before, even if it wasn't fun or healthy or or useful.
00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:15.039
Yeah, and I suppose looking at it from my point of view, from a work um situation with well shot.
00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:26.080
So, you know, if I was saying um bouncing back, maybe it's me thinking, oh, maybe we should have a membership.
00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:29.039
Maybe because say something isn't working.
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I'm not saying it's not working, but say something isn't working.
00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:40.799
And I think, oh, well, to make it work, I've got to bounce back to what we did have that used to work.
00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:52.399
Um isn't necessarily the right thing to do, that I should just find another way of making something work that's forwards.
00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:58.000
You know, it could be totally different to what I'm doing now and what I did in the past.
00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:00.320
You don't have to go backwards.
00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:00.960
Yeah.
00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:01.360
Yeah.
00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:01.759
Yeah.
00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:08.320
I mean, if you think about if we keep bouncing back to behavior that we used to do, we're kind of always in a loop, aren't we?
00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:10.159
We're just always going round and round in circles.
00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:16.320
Whereas if we bounce forward, we're moving from that place of this difficult thing that's just happened.
00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:19.840
We're moving forward to uh another opportunity.
00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:23.759
So we can keep making forward progress rather than repeating the same thing.
00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:24.080
Yeah.
00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:32.480
There's that expression, isn't there, about um how something like, you know, madness is doing the same thing time and time again and expecting a different result.
00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:33.679
Yeah, yeah.
00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:42.240
You know, like you just pointed out really uh importantly there that the circumstances in which your business operates have changed.
00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:48.080
So to bounce back to something that used to work won't necessarily work again.
00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:49.919
Yeah, yeah.
00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:55.919
Bouncing forward makes me feel really excited.
00:12:56.799 --> 00:12:57.440
That's good.
00:12:57.759 --> 00:13:11.200
It makes me feel even better than the oh look, I've had a disappointment, but I'm gonna pick myself up and you know, dust myself off uh off and keep myself going.
00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:17.679
That just seems a bit meh and a bit this a bit the same.
00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:27.919
But bouncing forwards, oh, it's like exciting and it's wow, and the possibilities are endless.
00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:29.120
Yeah, exactly.
00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:33.919
Because that is the thing about bouncing forwards, is you don't necessarily know where you're going to land.
00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:36.480
Bouncing back is safe, yeah.
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:40.399
It might not be good, but it's safe, isn't it?
00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:46.799
You know, it's because you know where it was and it might have been miserable or it might have been ineffective or whatever, but at least it's not scary.
00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:54.159
Now, bouncing forward, um, you know, you can describe that as exciting, or you can describe that as scary.
00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:56.399
Yeah, either way, it's a pretty much the same result.
00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:00.720
We're not entirely sure it will work out, but the more we know, the more we try that.
00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:09.200
Yeah, you know, you are you are uh concentrating when you bounce forward, you're concentrating on what have I learned?
00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:16.399
How can I use that to make progress rather than why am I hurt or frustrated or angry?
00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:18.559
Let me go back to who I was before.
00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:32.639
Yeah, and also bouncing back seems to have more of a definitive end, whereas bouncing forwards, it's like infinity yeah, more possibilities, yeah.
00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:38.399
Keep going and going and going, or as bouncing back, there's an end.
00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:38.960
Yeah.
00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.519
Well, in my mind, that's how it works anyway.
00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:52.080
No, I I like I like that, and I think it takes it takes a lot of um uh what's the right word here?
00:14:52.159 --> 00:15:07.279
It's self-awareness, really, to notice in that moment, you know, I am uncomfortable with this present situation, I'm disappointed, I'm frustrated, I'm anxious, whatever, and say, okay, what can I learn from this?
00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:12.320
Rather than just regressing to something that was before, what can I learn from this?
00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:14.799
And then how can I continue to move forward?
00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:15.519
Yeah.
00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:28.879
Well, I've learned a lot over the last 12 months, especially the last six months, and that's I don't do personal very well.
00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:31.120
Okay, tell me more about that.
00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:47.840
That um I am much happier, calmer, excited, being in a work situation, okay, a work environment.
00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:54.320
Um I haven't felt comfortable.
00:15:55.919 --> 00:16:13.039
I mean, it's because one of them was quite sad, but um I haven't felt happy is the word taking lots of time for the personal stuff.
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:26.720
It hasn't felt exciting or and I know one of them, one of the situations, obviously, the house was exciting, and you know, the other one, my friend, was very sad.
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:30.240
But I'm trying to, I can't really explain this.
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:54.720
It's almost like um, oh, it's almost like, right, well, I'm done with all the the time off and the personal stuff, you know, whether it's you know, kit shopping for kitchen products or clothing or whatever, I'm much more productive and happy behind my desk at work.
00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:57.200
That's my happy place.
00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:02.000
You know, some you know, really work is my happy place.
00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:10.799
And and when I'm focused on that, I I get things done and I achieve lots and I'm happy.
00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:26.000
But having to navigate both personal and work all at the same time and not have any control over the personal stuff is what I haven't enjoyed.
00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:37.200
Yeah, and I think you have had a bit of a perfect storm of work and personal stuff going on recently, and it's really difficult to deal with both of those at the same time.
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:48.960
I think it's great that you find work really fulfilling and you know exciting, but I think um it's and this is where this podcast gets really personal.
00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:55.920
Um, I think you you can't use that as a way of not dealing with your personal life.
00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:11.680
And and what I do want to draw out is that I I am perfectly aware of a couple of things that you are doing right now to address issues in your personal life that you can take some control over.
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:24.000
Um, and before we move on to that, I just wanted to say something that I noticed about you when you were dealing with the disappointment about the house is yeah, you were disappointed you weren't weren't moving into this particular house.
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:34.160
But you did also take some time to say, what have I learned from this process about going to the house?
00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:43.279
So I remember that you were you were really busy uh decluttering um because you didn't want to take a load of rubbish with you.
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:43.759
Yeah.
00:18:43.920 --> 00:19:06.559
Um and I remember you said to me, So you were going to move into a much bigger space, and then you know, now you're select you're staying in a smaller space, and you said, I still don't want a load of clutter, I still, you know, I still want to be sort of minimalist, uh, you know, and and have the things that we, you know, know to be useful and believe to be uh beautiful to quote William Morris.
00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:13.279
And I think what I see from you there is you bounced forward from the disappointment over the house.
00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:14.000
Yeah.
00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:26.160
Um, so we decluttered when we thought we were moving, and then we actually had all our stuff moved down to the house, and it's that's since come back to where we are now.
00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:34.319
And I decluttered even more because we'd been living without that stuff.
00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:43.039
We only we only had the bare minimum, and it yeah, and it has proved to me you do not need lots of stuff.
00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:43.759
Yeah.
00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:48.559
And so it's either got to be useful or bring me joy.
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:48.960
Yeah.
00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:52.960
And that's the same with my personal time off.
00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:55.759
Okay, we'll use that as an example.
00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:04.400
Um, because people said to me, I've always said to me, you need to take time off, you need to take time off.
00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:16.559
So I'd take time off and I'd just be at home and I'd be sort of quite bored, really, um, because I didn't have anything intentional to do.
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:38.000
So I've decided I'm not gonna take time off unless I have something specific that I intend to do, whether that's cleaning the house or cleaning my home or doing batch cooking or going on an adventure, you know, rather than just oh, I've been told that I have to take time off.
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:40.160
So I'm gonna stay home today.
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:51.680
Um, when I know that really I'd be more happy and yeah, more happy, happier to be at my desk.
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:54.720
Yeah, exactly.
00:20:54.880 --> 00:21:07.200
And to me, that there you're you are challenging my comment, you know, or where I said, you know, I need you not to ignore your personal life because the the the work life is is easier.
00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:12.240
So you are there demonstrating I'm not ignoring it, I'm just kind of reshaping it.
00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:15.359
Yeah, um, you know, and I think that's really great.
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:29.359
And the other thing that I have really noticed that you have taken some control over, um, and I know we've talked about this before, is but is your you know, your health journey, um, you know, and all the work you are doing there.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:36.720
And, you know, that hasn't always been smooth, and things haven't, you know, every week hasn't delivered the results that you might have been hoping for.
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:46.559
But at no point have I seen you say, Well, I'm just gonna, I'm I'm just gonna dust myself off and go back to how I used to live because that was okay.
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:51.039
I've made a really conscious decision not to think like that.
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:51.440
Yeah.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:56.319
And I stop myself and I and I think, what do I want more?
00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.759
Do I want this packet of crisps or the sausage roll?
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:09.359
Or you know, and and I'm starting to see results now, not just in the weight loss, but the way I move.
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:13.920
It's easier, it's getting easier every day.
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:15.920
But that's another thing too.
00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:26.480
I can I'm more likely to stick at my healthy progress and goals and challenges if I am at work.
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:40.240
Because if I was at home and I was didn't have any specific thing to do and I was bored, I would probably eat and not move as much.
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:46.880
You know, I'm not talking about, you know, never taking any time off work again.
00:22:47.039 --> 00:23:05.759
I'm talking about that taking time off to to not not necessarily to achieve something, but it has to be not just to always stay under the under the duvet cover or in front of the television.
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:06.400
Yeah.
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:07.359
And you know what?
00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:14.000
If at some point you feel like you need that day, you need a duvet day, then I know that you will have chosen to have that day.
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:20.240
Yeah, and now you would say I absolutely intend to have a restful day reading my book under the duvet.
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:23.039
Because that will be intentional.
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:24.319
Exactly.
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:25.519
Exactly.
00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:36.240
Yeah, not because oh, I don't know how to, I don't know what to do, or procrastinating, or resisting.
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:46.880
You know, I'm putting a lot more thought and effort into what I think about, what I tell myself, those limiting beliefs again.
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:47.440
Yeah.
00:23:47.599 --> 00:24:03.359
And I think a key part of bouncing forward is learning to recognise and use the concrete evidence of your own competences or your own sort of abilities and capabilities.
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:10.000
And I think sometimes when we get in stuck in a cycle of overthinking, that's that we struggle to do that.
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:11.599
We struggle to learn from the evidence.
00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:14.640
So we kind of regress to what worked before.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:29.200
But if you can actually say to yourself, okay, when I look at you know, this couple of days I took off, what does the way I behaved in those two days tell me about how I use my time off?
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:39.839
That gives you the evidence to kind of break that cycle of I take time off, I just waste it procrastinating, resisting, vegging out, however, however you want to describe it.
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:55.279
The evidence suggests to you that when you take some time off because you're gonna go and visit a friend, or you're gonna go, you know, on a day out with your husband or something, or you know, you're gonna do a task, you're gonna clean the house from top to bottom, then time off works for you.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:56.240
Yeah.
00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:02.480
And you know, sometimes I know that I need a duvet day.
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:04.000
I'm gonna call it a duvet day.
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:07.920
I'm not necessarily underneath the duvet, but I'm gonna call it a duvet day.
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:15.599
Just sometimes I know, especially if I'm trying to work through a problem that I'm trying to find a solution for.
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:20.240
I work very different to my husband and very different to my business partner.
00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:25.759
They think and solve problems in a completely different way to me.
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:31.119
I need quiet space and time to think.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:36.480
And quite often, that is underneath the do having a duvet day.
00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:36.880
Yeah.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:42.400
Um that's how I think and I've and I figure out a solution.
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:44.559
And it and it always works.
00:25:44.799 --> 00:26:07.279
It it really does always work, but yet if I came to work, I would get busy doing things, and I wouldn't be trying to solve the solution unless I was talking to somebody like you, or you know, my my other people that I work closely with who I can, you know, I've I talk to think.
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:08.240
Yes.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:17.279
So if I'm talking to you, I can come up with a solution, or if I'm at home underneath the duvet, I'm talking to myself.
00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:18.160
Yeah.
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:18.960
Yeah.
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:23.440
So and I think again, that's intentional, isn't it?
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:37.279
Yeah, you you're you're making a decision rather than being on autopilot, uh, you know, where you just kind of return to the position you were in before all the time, you're actually interrupting that cycle and saying, okay, what's working here?
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:38.400
What isn't working?
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:40.480
What would I like to be doing differently?
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:47.440
You know, and you're taking a kind of conscious action, particularly when you do have like a limiting belief.
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:56.880
Like, you know, you talked about them, like I said, about I you got into this thing where I had to get myself in an absolute tizzy for three days before an exam, otherwise I wouldn't do well.
00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:08.000
It's really important that we interrupt those kind of old lessons which just come back into our minds and say, hang on a second, is that useful?
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:09.519
Is that true?
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:10.960
Does this help me?
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:12.720
Does this serve me anymore?
00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:31.599
And you know, the more we do that, the more we kind of wake ourselves up in the middle of that autopilot response, the more likely we are to be able to take that evidence to learn that lesson and bounce forward rather than just kind of it's it's great to dust yourself down and get back up and start again.
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:35.920
But wouldn't it be great to do that with a bit more forward energy?
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:36.640
Yeah.
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:49.759
So one thing I want to know, I've never heard that phrase bouncing forward, and everything that you've talked about, I've not read or heard about this before.
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:57.200
Is this a Michelle ism or is this something you've learned from somewhere?
00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:04.000
Uh so a few years ago, ages ago now, I did a um a course.
00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:06.720
Um, have you had a future learn?
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:12.240
They do um so it's a website, and you can do loads of different courses on there.
00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:17.200
And and some of them, if you want to get audited for it, you have to pay, but you can do a load of stuff for free.
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:23.200
And there was a course on there, I think it was Deakin University, and they did a course on professional resilience.
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:34.799
Um, and as part of when you do courses with Future Learn, you have to sort of participate in um various kind of chat forums, and they will ask you certain questions.
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:43.119
And um somebody asked, I think the question was, how do we define resilience?
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:48.960
And a lot of people defined resilience as the ability to bounce back.
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:56.079
And then I read one comment, and uh somebody had written, I'm not a fan of bounce back.
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:01.920
That suggests to me that the resilience ball brings you back to where you were, but I don't think it does.
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:08.400
Hopefully, you face the future more able and wiser by building up your resilience.
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:13.039
Um, and I just thought that was a really lovely way of describing it.
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:33.039
And then somebody else then said when you do that, you can use those circumstances, so taking an exam or losing out in a house or whatever, not to be sort of things that trip you up, but actually stepping stones that you can kind of move forward on.
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:35.839
And I just found that a really helpful thing.
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:45.519
So since then, sort of eight or nine years ago, I've been trying to use that idea of bouncing forward rather than bouncing back.
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:54.559
It's I think it's brilliant, and so I take absolutely no credit for coming up with that concept, but you know, I love to spread that concept.
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:58.799
Whoever that person was, I wish I'd made a note of their name, but thank you very much because we've made a defense.
00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:13.920
But you know that thing, have you ever seen that uh Japanese art um with the broken ceramic when they put it back together with with gold?
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:19.680
Yeah, okay, it's called something like Kinsakori or Kintsugi, I think is another name for it.
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:21.200
And I love that.
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:33.519
So if you imagine this, this you know, bowl that's been broken, but you've stuck it back together with this this lacquer that or glue that's got gold in it, you've now got something that looked even more beautiful than before.
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:40.160
And so I think for me, that kind of visually sums up this idea of bouncing forward.
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:50.880
So we're not ignoring our struggles or ignoring the challenges we've had in the past, but we're using them, we're kind of valuing the lessons that we learned from them to make something even better.
00:30:51.119 --> 00:31:03.839
Yeah, and that's a really perfect analogy to the house because I absolutely love, I mean, love where we live now and how we live.
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:04.400
Okay.
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:05.519
I love it.
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:13.440
There was, I wouldn't have even have contemplated moving apart from where this house was.
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:16.799
You know, it was only just down the road.
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:28.480
It was um it was perfect for my husband, and and we could have still carried on um being involved with the people who we, you know, live and work with now.
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:42.640
But it so it was perfect, but now that it's not happening, I'm not sad anymore because I'm I'm still happy with where we live and how we live.
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:48.000
So it's not broken, it's just been put back together, filled with gold.
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:53.039
Um, and yeah, bouncing forwards.
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:53.920
Yeah.
00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:57.759
That makes me feel quite emotional to hear you say that, actually.
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:02.240
I think that's a really lovely um reflection on the process.
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:08.960
Because obviously, you know, I've been sort of witnessing the whole house process as your friend.
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:11.519
And there was a time when it was really tough for you, wasn't it?
00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:22.319
But to hear you say now that you know you're you're staying where where you live and that it's kind of filled with gold now, I think that's a really lovely, really lovely image to have.
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:23.839
Thank you for sharing that.
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:33.519
Yeah, so you know, um I've just told my husband that um he needs to hurry up and sort my veggie garden out again.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:34.799
Yeah, that's true.
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:36.559
So you can get back into doing that.
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:36.960
Yeah.
00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:47.359
So I think I think that bouncing forwards, it may be in the moment, it may be more difficult.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:48.240
Okay.
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:57.839
It takes some self-awareness, it takes you being honest with yourself and challenging sort of thoughts you've had in the past.
00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:00.880
It takes courage and confidence.
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:13.440
It does indeed, it does indeed, and and it takes the recognition that you sometimes you just need to stop for a few seconds and think, what's actually going on here?
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:15.279
What am I learning?
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.440
How am I gonna react to this?
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:22.079
You know, how can I move forward rather than just go back to a previous situation?
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:23.039
Yeah.
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:34.160
So if you're listening to this right now and you can think of an example where in the past you bounced back and you've been really pleased to bounce back because you know you've been demonstrating resilience.
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:48.720
Um, I'd like to ask you whether or not this idea of bouncing forward fills you with dread or whether it fills you with uh a bit of optimism or excitement, as uh as Lee described.
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:58.319
Um, if there's somebody you know that you think needs to hear this, um maybe you'd share the episode with them and and leave us a review or leave us a comment.
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:07.359
But um I think Lee has just summed that up lovely in a lovely way with her uh uh her house filled with gold.
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:10.480
So I think we should probably leave it there for today.
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:11.519
What do you think, Lee?
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:25.280
I think that that's perfect, and thank you so much for coming up with that phrase because I'm gonna use it and think about it almost daily, I'd say.
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:40.159
And I'm gonna I'm going to tell other people or suggest to other people that you know when that whenever I hear somebody saying the words bounce back, I'm saying no, you should be bouncing forwards.
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:46.079
Well, on that note, everybody, take care of yourselves and keep bouncing forward.
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:46.960
Goodbye.
00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:48.079
Bye-bye.
