WEBVTT
00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:26.879
Well, hello, welcome back to the Conflict Skills Podcast.
00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:29.839
I'm your host, professional mediator, Simon Good.
00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:33.600
I set up this podcast to provide free resources and tools for dealing with conflict.
00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:38.159
So if that sounds like the kind of thing that's useful to you, please consider pressing subscribe.
00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:44.320
Well, in the episode today, I'm going to be talking about the topic of generational conflict in the workplace.
00:00:44.560 --> 00:01:02.479
This is a commonly raised issue when I'm doing workplace mediations and resolving conflict directly, but I've noticed that also the leadership coaching and the training that I do around managing difficult conversations and those kind of areas often does also involve an element of generational differences.
00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:13.120
If it's not something that you've considered or done any reading or training on previously, these generational difference challenges can be incredibly difficult to deal with, can't they?
00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:21.200
In the moment, as this very, I guess, divergent set of expectations that a young staff member might have as opposed to the old.
00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:30.079
Of course, the people who are in the older stages of life and they often have more experience by that stage as well, have grown up in a completely different world.
00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:37.680
A lot of the time they were apprentices or graduates, newly, newly um employed trainees.
00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:44.239
And there really has been a top-down leadership style in a lot of, at least in Australian businesses historically.
00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:51.439
So people who are my parents' age, for example, in their 60s, they often are used to speaking in a very direct kind of way.
00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:52.640
You need to do this.
00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:57.120
And of course, that's the way that their boss talked to them in their early stages of their career.
00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:09.120
These days, though, we've got the Millennials coming through, the Gen, we had the Gen Xs, and then we've got the Gen Ys, the Millennials, and now the Gen Z are coming through as well, the staff members in their 20s at the moment.
00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:11.919
And there are these very different sets of norms.
00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:27.280
Again, a lot of the time when I'm dealing with managers or business owners and we're talking about workplace conflict, one of the things that we often discuss and reflect on is the fact that there will always be conflict in every set of in every relationship that you've got, basically.
00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:35.360
In every set of communications, in every set of tasks that you've got to deal with someone, even, there's the potential for conflict to be there.
00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:43.280
And conflict doesn't necessarily mean that there's huge amounts of animosity, there's large, strong emotions involved or something like that.
00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:47.120
It might just be the meeting of this different set of expectations.
00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:55.280
But when it comes to generational differences, what I've noticed is this often begins a snowball that builds over time.
00:02:55.439 --> 00:03:05.599
There might be this different starting point in terms of the expectations, but the way that that's dealt with often leads to a whole bunch of secondary issues that emerge.
00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:10.240
A young staff member might feel like they're being micromanaged, for example.
00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:18.479
And the boss, the supervisor, the leading hand might think, geez, this young person just doesn't know how to show initiative.
00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:21.439
I need to spoon feed them instructions or something similar.
00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:26.800
Ironically, it's probably something that both of them would like to be different than how it is at the moment.
00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:32.800
And yet it's challenging to find the right language and how to actually go about that kind of a discussion.
00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:39.120
It could also be things like young people are often described as being hyper-vigilant to feedback.
00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:40.400
They're so sensitive.
00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:50.000
You give them some feedback or you give them a bit of direct input or something, and they take it so personally and they get so upset and carry a grudge or something.
00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:51.360
Well, that's probably true.
00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:54.719
Young people often do find feedback very confronting.
00:03:55.039 --> 00:03:59.360
But if we just assume that it's all the young person's fault and why don't they just get over it?
00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:04.159
Obviously that leads to a likely future that's pretty similar to what we're living at the moment.
00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:05.919
There's an old saying that I really like.
00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:10.159
If you continue to do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've already got.
00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:19.120
So I'm going to go through three different conflict resolution case studies, similar to the previous conflict resolution case studies that I've analyzed.
00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:20.639
I'm going to be annotating.
00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:27.839
If you'd like to watch on the screen, I've got a video going at the same time, but I'll do my best to make sure that I describe it if you're just listening.
00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:33.920
The three different situations that we're dealing with is a leading hand and an apprentice having a clash.
00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:37.439
We've got a generational difference in terms of work style.
00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:40.720
This is an accounting firm, and it's a team leader, Helen.
00:04:41.120 --> 00:05:00.160
And then in the final case study, we've got a different situation where we've got somebody with more experience and probably a little bit of a track record under their belt as well, but also a reasonably well-defined steps and processes that they normally follow versus a young person coming in and they want to change things up.
00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:02.240
They want to shake things around, I guess.
00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:08.399
Now, as I go through these different situations, my goal isn't necessarily to come up with the single answer.
00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:12.560
I think there's probably multiple ways that we could deal with this kind of an issue.
00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:19.600
And even in terms of the specific language that we use, for example, you might have slightly different phrasing than I would use.
00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:23.600
Like I've got my own cultural background and my own set of norms, I guess.
00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:30.800
It's interesting though, when we think about generational differences, I wonder what kind of conflict do you think that is?
00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:36.240
Is it data conflict that maybe we just need to clarify the expectations moving forward?
00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:39.519
Or do you think about it as relationship conflict?
00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:45.040
It's the frustrations, it's the rubbing each other the wrong way that ultimately drives a lot of the issues.
00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:50.879
You might think about it as interest conflict, this young person trying to escape work, you know what I mean?
00:05:51.040 --> 00:06:01.600
Then they're wanting to avoid doing something that's difficult, or they want a promotion, they expect to be the CEO of the company after they've been in a job for a few years or whatever else it might be.
00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:05.839
So it could be tangible interests, what's in it for me versus what's in it for you.
00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:08.160
Or we could even think about the structure.
00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:16.000
Maybe this is the way that we do updates or the way that we give feedback, the way that we request information from the younger person that we're dealing with.
00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:19.199
For me, though, it's not necessarily any of those fours.
00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:24.000
It could be all of them, relationship, data, structure, or interest.
00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:30.160
A lot of the time, though, I think it's this final type of conflict, which is value conflict.
00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:34.240
I'll just scroll down so you can see these on the screen if you're watching.
00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:41.600
This value conflict to me is often at the heart of a lot of the generational challenges that we deal with.
00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:47.759
It's my idea about what should happen, what's normal, what's professional, what's respectful.
00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:52.800
Where's the line between giving somebody feedback and it becoming micromanagement?
00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:59.680
Where's the line between somebody being oversensitive and an appropriate level of feed?
00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:00.800
What would you say?
00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:08.000
It's like an appropriate accepting of responsibility for your own behavior and the consequences of what happened regardless of your intentions.
00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:12.240
Like we've all got slightly different perspectives on all of these elements.
00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:22.000
When we think about generational differences and a lot of the conflict that falls out of that, to me, it often makes sense to start with this value conflict type.
00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:32.079
Whereas in data conflict, we would work towards clarifying expectations or interest conflict, we might we might approach that one negotiating strategically.
00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:38.639
When it comes to value conflict, the steps that often work are normalizing and clarifying the differences.
00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:46.959
And then setting up a conversation about the future and the solutions.
00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:59.279
So I want to talk through what is going to work in terms of tweaks that we could use, what makes sense in terms of other people that we could engage to get some support at dealing with this issue.
00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:07.839
It's the differences themselves, and then when we have the discussion about the future, that's often where we begin to make progress in this type of value conflict.
00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:16.160
Whereas I think a lot of people approach this as you're wrong and I'm right, you need to understand this, you need to realize this.
00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:23.600
What often that does is it invites the other person to take the opposite, the opposite chair in the debate.
00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:33.279
If we're saying how great this is and how much they should follow our advice, well, they're likely to tell us how bad the advice is and how much it doesn't make sense to follow it, right?
00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:38.559
Whereas if we begin by saying, look, it seems like we've got quite different perspectives here.
00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:39.519
That makes sense.
00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:43.840
We've got different experiences, so we've probably got slightly different norms that we have here.
00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:44.639
That's okay.
00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:46.799
We can talk these things through.
00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:52.080
Maybe let's think about what is needed to get on the same page moving forward.
00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:53.679
So I'm not saying you're wrong.
00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:58.399
It's more like these are the two approaches, you know, how are we going to figure this out?
00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:08.960
If we think about a single example of generational conflict, a very common one that I'm told is I've got a young staff member and they don't like picking up the phone.
00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:11.440
They won't just pick up the phone and call somebody.
00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:15.279
Well, that's an example where we could deal with that single issue in isolation.
00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:19.200
It's the behavior of not making a call when you've been requested.
00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:29.679
But in terms of how we actually deal with it, we could deal with it in terms of the data, clarifying that it's not negotiable, it's part of your job description, or doing it in terms of the interest.
00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:33.759
If you don't make the phone call, this is the punishment that you might have to deal with.
00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:37.360
Or if you do make the phone call, this is the reward that I can offer you.
00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:39.679
The carrots and the sticks kind of approach.
00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:41.679
Maybe we could change the structure.
00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:55.039
We do all of our phone calls together in the morning as a team so that we don't have as much of a sense of everybody else in the office sitting there listening to us if we're all head down and going for it, then nobody feels as self-conscious, for example.
00:09:55.279 --> 00:09:58.000
Or we could deal with it in terms of the values.
00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:02.320
I wonder if you're wondering why I'm even asking you to make these phone calls.
00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:07.039
It seems like to you, this isn't necessarily what you would want if you were the customer anyway.
00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:11.600
After all, you've said you prefer to get emails rather than phone calls, generally speaking.
00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:13.200
It's not just at work.
00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:16.960
I know for me myself and other people, we've got a different focus.
00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:20.799
We would prefer to have the opportunity to talk with someone on the phone.
00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:30.080
Given the fact that this is the way that I've seen it work previously, or given the fact that this is what at stake, or based on all of those elements, could you do this?
00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:31.120
Could we do this?
00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:41.840
You might decide to be quite competing and be very assertive, or this might be the kind of situation where it makes sense to collaborate, see if there is some kind of a win-win that you can get to here.
00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:51.840
So we're keeping this in mind of all of the different conflict types, a lot of the time when we're thinking about generational differences, we're dealing with value conflict.
00:10:52.000 --> 00:11:03.600
And the approach that often works there is normalizing both perspectives, validating them if needed and if possible, and then shifting the conversation towards the future and the solutions.
00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:06.240
Alright, so let's have a look at this first case study.
00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:10.000
We've got the leading hand and the apprentice in a bit of a clash here.
00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:15.279
I'll read up first, then I'll talk about a few of the elements that jump out at me.
00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:23.919
As you're listening, you might like to consider how would you approach this situation if you were in either of these parties' shoes.
00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:25.519
So here we go.
00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:35.919
On a busy construction site, experienced leading hand Dave in his mid-50s grew increasingly frustrated with 19-year-old apprentice Jake.
00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:39.039
I'm just going to underline that word increasingly.
00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:48.000
One of the things that I often notice, again, when I'm called in externally and there's workplace conflict going on is that it almost never happens in a single incident.
00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:53.600
It's typical that there's been pressure or tension building up over time, sometimes years.
00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:59.519
So this increasing level of frustration, I would be a little bit curious about that if I was dealing with this.
00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:02.639
How long has Dave been feeling frustrated?
00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:05.200
And I wonder if Jake picks up on that.
00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:09.279
How has Dave communicated about that previously, or how did he manage it?
00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:11.759
And what's Jake's take on that?
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:18.399
If Dave was frustrated and Jake was aware of it, is he motivated to do anything different?
00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:26.399
Dave expected quiet observation, quick responses to instructions, and careful attention to traditional methods.
00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:28.399
So I'm just going to jot down a couple of these.
00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:34.320
These are what I think of as these values, these are the underlying norms and expectations that we have.
00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:43.759
So we've got we wanted him to just be quiet and watch, respond quickly when we ask him to do something, and careful attention to the traditional methods.
00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:56.399
Jake often asked why certain steps were necessary, suggested faster digital tools he had learned at trade school, and sometimes appeared distracted on his phone during quiet moments.
00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:01.360
So we've got a few elements again of the conflict and how it's playing out.
00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:10.159
We've got the suggestions about the faster digital tools, asking why, why certain steps were necessary, and then the distracted on the phone.
00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:21.279
I have to say, of all of the different types of conflict that people talk about, staff members using their phone is a very, very common one for managers and team leaders, and it can be very challenging to deal with.
00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:23.279
And there's something about it, isn't it?
00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:27.279
It's not just the fact that they're wasting time and they're getting paid for it.
00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:31.279
It's something about the attitude of you just couldn't be bothered.
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:39.840
You could be looking around and seeing if someone else needs a hand or seeing if there's something that needs doing, but instead you're selfishly scrolling.
00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:42.080
Now it might not be selfish scrolling at all.
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:45.600
Jake might be looking and see if his kids are okay at the childcare.
00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:48.879
He might have an elderly parent that's in the emergency room at the moment.
00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:49.919
Like we don't know.
00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:54.960
But when we see the person using their phone, we tend to jump to the worst conclusions, don't we?
00:13:55.200 --> 00:14:00.559
So I wonder amongst all of those different elements, which of those are actually pushing Dave's buttons?
00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:08.399
It could be that because he sees him using his phone, that all of the other elements become much more frustrating as a result.
00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:13.279
We've all got different things that push our buttons, don't we?
00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:18.559
In a similar way to the people that we'll come across, some people that we meet, we just naturally resonate.
00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:20.080
Other people, it's the opposite.
00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:22.879
We rub each other the wrong way almost from the word go.
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:28.399
And I think the same thing is true about the different habits and behaviors that people can have.
00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.279
Using your phone, staff members using your phone.
00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:34.639
That might not be something that you care about at all if it's your team.
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:38.080
Other people, though, they bristle as soon as they see it.
00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:46.080
Dave began raising his voice when corrections were needed, openly criticized Jake in front of the crew for not listening.
00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:49.120
Okay, raising his voice, open criticism.
00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:56.480
Jake responded by becoming quieter and more withdrawn, occasionally muttering that Dave was stuck in the past.
00:14:57.279 --> 00:15:01.759
Okay, well the passive aggressive kind of like mumble something as you're walking away.
00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:03.279
That's pretty tricky, isn't it?
00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:12.799
Other workers noticed the tension, job progress slowed on shared tasks, and the daily atmosphere on site became noticeably more strained.
00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:14.960
Oh, it's very tricky, isn't it?
00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:18.000
So how should we go about dealing with this issue?
00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:23.600
Let's imagine that we were Dave and we were wanting to do something about Jake.
00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:28.480
Well, I suppose one of the mistakes that we don't want to repeat is doing it in public.
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:33.519
This open criticism, obviously, that's going to add an element of pressure.
00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.720
There's an element of self-consciousness that would creep in.
00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:47.600
These days, like we might have to give a presentation and we're standing up in front of our staff or out in front of our team, and our heart races, and we might tell ourselves, oh, I'm being silly, I'm overreacting.
00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:49.519
And criticism is very similar.
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:53.679
Like Dave might be thinking, Dave, Jake, like just get over it, mate.
00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:54.960
I was just giving you a bit of feedback.
00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:59.039
We've all had to cop it at different moments in our career, mate, like grow up.
00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:03.200
But there's something about the criticism in front of your colleagues.
00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:05.759
We're wired to be sensitive to this.
00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:08.639
We're wired for it not to just go through Little Keeper.
00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:12.559
These days we might tell ourselves we're being silly or overreacting.
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:23.200
But if we think about historically living in a tribe and all of the people that were watching you, all of the people in your tribe that were staring at you in one moment, that wasn't necessarily a safe spot to be.
00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:27.600
You might have been accused of something, there might have been something negative about to happen.
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:32.320
Like blending into the flock is something that we tend to feel a lot more comfortable with.
00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:44.240
And especially for young people, that open criticism in front of others, I would say that there's almost like a 0% chance of Jake actually taking in the feedback when it's given in that way.
00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:48.480
So instead of doing it in public, we would want to do it somewhere private.
00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:54.559
And I probably would think about different ways that we could emphasize Jake's status too.
00:16:54.799 --> 00:17:00.240
Look, mate, you know, I've been noticing a few things and I just want to touch base about how you're traveling.
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:04.319
For me, this is a really important relationship, the supervisor and apprentice.
00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:08.720
All of the relationships I've had with previous apprentices have been different.
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:14.160
So I'd really like to take a bit of time to get to know you and hear about how you're traveling as part of this.
00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:21.119
I'd like to hear your take on some of the clashes that we've had previously and what you would like to see from me different moving forward.
00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:28.720
And I wonder if you would be open for me describing some of the stuff I've noticed, and maybe we could have a bit of a talk about expectations as well.
00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:29.920
What do you reckon?
00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:34.799
So I'm approaching this in a reasonably deferential, respectful kind of way.
00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:36.000
G'day, Jake.
00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:37.200
Look, mate, you matter.
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:39.039
I'm taking this seriously.
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.119
Let's organize the time to talk it through.
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:44.160
Let's organize a time to figure out what's going to work moving forward.
00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:51.119
And all of the language that I would use would be that kind of stuff, focused on the future and on the solutions where possible.
00:17:51.440 --> 00:18:04.960
If I decide to give him feedback, like if I'm saying to him you're too sensitive or you just need to follow the instructions that you're given instead of suggesting all these new tool, new methods or something, we would want to focus on the behavior.
00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:06.400
Could you stop doing this?
00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:07.519
Could you start doing this?
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:09.119
Could you do this differently?
00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:13.839
As soon as we're saying, you know, you just have not you got no idea, mate.
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:17.440
You got no idea what life's in the real world, what life's like in the real world.
00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:24.240
As soon as we paint these labels, like you're not taking this job seriously, you got a bad attitude, you're always negative.
00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:31.680
As soon as we paint the person with those labels, it tends to just trigger defensiveness because of course it just comes across as criticism.
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:38.319
So where I'm wanting to talk about feedback, I would drill down to the behaviors as much as possible.
00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:46.640
So they might be the things like paying attention, it might be the methodology and just following the instructions that you've been given.
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:51.359
Um, it might be something about using your phone, especially when customers are on site.
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:52.799
How would we deal with this?
00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:56.240
So those would be the elements that I would want to focus on.
00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:06.319
If I was in Dave's position, personally I'd probably spend a few minutes writing down some notes for myself because it can be tricky coming up with the right words in the heat of the moment.
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.079
But we're all going to have a slightly different idea of what preparing looks like.
00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:12.720
But we've got preparing for the issue itself.
00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:14.799
Like what how am I going to tell him this?
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:19.519
Maybe there's a way that I can frame it in a mutual and neutral way.
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:33.680
Like it seems like we've um had some crosswires recently, or it seems like maybe both of us have been noticing things that we would like to be different, but we haven't actually had a time to talk it through and clarifying it.
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.000
Like it's a very mutual way of raising the issue.
00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:40.720
Hey, mate, I just want to talk about how things have been over the last couple of weeks within the team.
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:47.359
Instead of saying, I want to talk to you about and about your bad attitude, I want to talk to you about your bloody poor performance, mate.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:48.079
It's ridiculous.
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:49.440
You need to pull your socks up.
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:53.680
Okay, well, good luck if that's the way that we've decided to approach the conflict, right?
00:19:54.559 --> 00:20:06.160
So I would do that feedback in a way that reaffirms status, low tone of voice, slow speed, lower volume, do it somewhere privately, sit at the same level instead of standing.
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:08.559
I might just go for a walk and get a coffee or something.
00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:12.559
That would be another good option as well of chatting while we're walking next to each other.
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:21.279
But I want to do whatever I can to lower the stakes, to decrease that sense of perceived pressure, and to decrease that sense of perceived threat.
00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:26.079
Alright, let's have a look at the next case study and maybe think about what might work here.
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.480
We've got an accounting firm this time, and it's a team leader, Helen.
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:41.920
In a mid-sized accounting firm, team leader Helen, aged 58, preferred detailed reports, face-to-face meetings, and strict adherence to established processes.
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:50.559
Her younger team members, mostly in their 20s, favored quick Slack updates, collaborative online documents, flexible remote check-ins.
00:20:51.200 --> 00:21:03.599
When Helen insisted on returning full in-office to full in-office days and paper-based review cycles, several younger staff pushed back, arguing the old method slowed everything down.
00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:07.039
Helen felt disrespected and believed they lacked discipline.
00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:21.440
Sharp comments were exchanged in team meetings and emails grew formal and defensive, and collaboration on client files became slower as both sides stuck rigidly to their preferred ways of working.
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:22.720
Oh my goodness.
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.960
So there's a few elements that already sound very difficult to manage, aren't there?
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:29.920
This whole, like, do you prefer to be in the office or not?
00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:41.440
That could almost be an entirely separate episode of the Conflict Skills podcast, I think, because there's a lot of workplace conflict about whether or not we can work remotely and what these expectations are really achieving here.
00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:49.599
But let's focus more on the perspectives, the the underlying factors that have led to these expectations being developed.
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:51.680
So Helen's in that older category.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:54.160
We've got a younger team mostly in their 20s.
00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:59.759
So they're favoring the quick Slack updates, collaborative online documents, and flexible remote.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:00.720
Check-ins.
00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:10.400
So although these probably seem like a whole bunch of issues that are connected, it might be possible for Helen to separate these.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:14.160
Again, what I often find helpful is drilling down to the behavior.
00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:18.240
Like what kind of updates are we talking about here that they prefer Slack for?
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:20.000
In what setting are they used?
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:21.519
Why do they prefer it?
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:23.920
Um, is there any tweaks that we could use?
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:32.319
For example, we still use Slack, but we have a pro forma of these four questions that people will answer each time they give an update.
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:37.839
So at least it means that we've got some consistency in the information that's being captured or something.
00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:44.640
Or maybe we do use Slack, but we use an AI bot to listen to it and then send us out notes afterwards.
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:47.039
So at least we've got a written record.
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:55.920
For this kind of stuff, like the way that communication happens and the way that decisions get made, this is what I think of as structural conflict.
00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:04.240
Whereas I talked about the values that are underlying that, it's possible here that Helen might decide instead to just focus on the structure.
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:08.559
That's fine with me as long as we include these things, or as long as we follow this structure.
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:14.480
That's fine with me as long as we can make sure that each person gives an update once a week or something similar.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:22.480
So depending on what's at stake and how much time they have, this would be where Helen would need to decide how assertive to be here.
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:29.680
In some situations, there's enough at stake and it makes sense to stick to your guns and just to say no, this is the way it's going to be.
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:40.240
In other situations, maybe we could take more of a meet them in the middle kind of approach, split the difference, or maybe think, is there another option that could work here as a win-win potentially?
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.880
So we've got each of those different elements to some extent in isolation.
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:51.759
The Slack updates, then we've got the collaborative online documents, then we've got the flexible remote check-ins.
00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:55.440
Now here's where I think it comes to the crunch.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:24:05.599
When Helen insisted on returning to full in-office days and paper-based review cycles, several younger staff pushed back.
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:08.799
So what was leading up to that?
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:13.279
I wonder what the process was that Helen used to introduce that change.
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:18.400
Was it something that there was a consultation process around and there was a collaborative effort?
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:19.759
I don't think so.
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.960
It sounds to me like these younger staff are feeling much more like it's a top-down decision that's been made.
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:37.359
So for me, when I've been in the younger staff members' shoes, I've often needed to find a way to manage up then and deal with my manager who might have more of a buy the book black and white kind of perspective than I do.
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:44.079
So I would be, I think, as the young person here saying to Helen, how much flexibility is there around this?
00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:50.000
When you say we're moving to paper-based review cycles, which elements of those do you have in mind?
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:54.319
Are you talking about the quarterly meetings that we have with our operations manager?
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:56.799
Is it the way that our KPIs are measured?
00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:58.559
Like, what are we talking about here?
00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:04.640
So get the specifics and then choose how assertive that you need to be based on all of those different issues.
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:07.759
As the staff member, it might not be that you've got a lot of power.
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:11.200
It might just be this is how we would like it, and they say no.
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:15.440
And then ultimately the choice that you have is how long you stay with the organization.
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:23.920
If you're Helen or if you're in more of a powerful position, I suppose, in the dynamic, that's where we could consider, well, what can we influence here?
00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:26.079
So what's the pushback about?
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.559
Is it about coming in physically?
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:32.240
Is it about the time that's needed with the paper review cycles?
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:43.839
When they talk about slowing, like our work becoming slower, or the fact that old methods are slowing everything down, this is where we would probably want to drill down to the data.
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:46.720
Sorry, can you please fill me in on what you mean by that?
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:50.799
When you say that there's been delays, which projects are you referring to?
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:58.640
When you say that you haven't been sure what's expected because everything is so confusing, in what situations are you feeling that way?
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:00.400
Is it about reporting?
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:05.039
Are you talking about the way that you're given instructions and the way that delegation happens?
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:09.200
Is this something to do with data entry or your own report writing?
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:11.200
Like what are we talking about here?
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:16.880
As long as we can get down to the specifics, then what it means is we can talk about interests.
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:20.559
So I would probably start here with with structure.
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:26.400
Maybe there is a different kind of document management system using Slack in a different way, that could work.
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:30.000
Then we would probably move to either interests or data.
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:34.640
We could either clarify the facts and drill into, hang on, I haven't noticed that.
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:36.319
Can you tell me a bit more about this?
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:42.960
Or something you might not be aware of is actually this, like this is an organizational initiative that's across the board.
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:47.440
Well, maybe if Helen explains that to them, then there wouldn't be as much resistance.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.680
Or maybe again Helen needs to consider the carrots and the sticks.
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:59.519
I know that it's not something that sounds ideal to you, and you're right, there wasn't much of a consultation process before this decision was made.
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:03.920
Given all of that, it is something that there's not any flexibility around.
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:12.799
So could you please let me know what would work for you in terms of organizing the office so that you've got a workspace here that does meet your needs while you're in the office?
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:23.440
It's possible that we can revisit this and renegotiate next financial year after the current agreement ends or whatever, but not necessarily.
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:29.359
So to some extent, I guess I take your point, I appreciate your feedback and I get where you're coming from.
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:32.799
This is a decision that we don't have a lot of leeway regarding.
00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:35.200
For me, I like to use that kind of language.
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.880
It's not flexible or it's not something that I can agree to.
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:40.559
So what do they want?
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:48.960
And then I would either say yes or no, or I would proactively consider: well, is this the kind of situation where I need to actually make a threat?
00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:56.559
Like if they continue to use the old system and I've asked them to make a change, at some stage the manager needs to decide how long we let this go.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:59.680
And that can be one of the most challenging things to deal with as well.
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:02.400
Just what's the right moment to raise this issue?
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:04.559
Like I've seen this happen a few times before.
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:12.160
I know these people are very sensitive to feedback, and I don't want to trigger them, I don't want to push their buttons and set them off on negative spirals.
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:15.039
You've really got a dilemma on your hands, don't you?
00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:18.799
Choosing between two bad options in a lot of those situations.
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.680
Okay, so let's have a look at that third case study.
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:25.039
We've got experience versus new ideas.
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:36.720
At a manufacturing plant, Ron serving long-serving supervisor Ron in his early 60s clashed with a group of younger machine operators in their 20s.
00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:46.160
Ron trusted proven routines developed over decades and resisted changing to shift patterns or the introduction of new monitoring software.
00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:54.960
The younger operators saw the software as a clear efficiency gain and grew impatient with what they viewed as unnecessary resistance.
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:59.519
During a shift handover meeting, the disagreement became heated.
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:03.039
During a shift handover meeting, the disagreement became heated.
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:07.519
Ron accused the younger staff of lacking respect for experience.
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:10.559
They replied that he was blocking progress.
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:24.319
Voices rose, other workers fell silent, and the rest of the shift proceeded with minimal communication between the two groups, leaving production coordination uneven and the overall mood on the floor tense.
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:31.599
Hmm, I feel like I'm having a little bit of deja vu to a couple of the mediations that I did when I was living in Newcastle a while ago.
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:42.480
We were often dealing with manufacturing or steelworks kind of facilities and a lot of these shift-change kind of challenges they were dealing with every day.
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:49.519
So we've got the manufacturing plant, the long-serving supervisor Ron, and he's clashing with a group of younger machine operators.
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:57.680
It's often the way, it's not just one person versus one person, especially as the conflict involves and develops over weeks and months.
00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:08.640
A lot of the time other people become involved, either enlisted as allies, you know, someone in the lunchroom, it's like, let me tell you about this next bloody thing Rob d Ron did yesterday.
00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:23.680
Or it might be more like vicarious victims that are sitting there in the lunchroom trying to eat their sandwich in peace, and Ron comes in, you know, blowing his spilling his guts about how annoying these young machine operators or something similar.
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:25.599
So where are they clashing here?
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:34.880
Ron has trusted proven routines, developed over decades, and resisted changes to shift patterns or the introduction of new monitoring software.
00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:43.519
The younger operators saw the software as a clear efficiency gain and grew impatient with what they viewed as unnecessary resistance.
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:49.759
So again, I think we would approach this one from either of their perspectives as a difference in values.
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:51.359
I can get where you're coming from.
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:54.640
This routine is something that you developed literally over 20 years.
00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:58.720
So it makes sense then why for you, why would you be second guessing this?
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:03.119
I mean, you've probably tried a lot of the options that come to mind for us already.
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:11.440
At the same time, the way that we tend to work is that we like to have some element of autonomy, some element of creativity.
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:21.599
A lot of the time we're willing to be given instructions, but ultimately if it's just do A, then B, then C, then you're going to find that engagement within the team drops over time.
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:32.799
I'm wondering if maybe there might be some middle ground where we do have more consistency and that would probably allow for more, I don't know, higher levels of output or something similar.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:43.759
And then there might be some other areas as well where you can give us a little bit more flexibility or consider one of us to be in charge of the next initiative that gets rolled out within the organization.
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:46.160
Like obviously, that's language that I would use.
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:50.559
It's probably a bit more wordy than a lot of people, but the same approach could work.
00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:54.319
It's, hey, is there some middle ground that we can reach here and compromise?
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:57.599
Or maybe there's some opportunity for collaborating.
00:31:58.160 --> 00:32:06.640
One of the things that I often talk about when I'm meeting with the RONs or with the young machine operators are these five uh conflict modes.
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:10.240
I'll just scroll down so that you can see them on the screen if you're looking.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:14.559
Compete, collaborate, compromise, avoid, and accommodate.
00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:20.240
So these are five different options that we've got for dealing with each instance of conflict.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:31.279
For Ron, this could be something to do with the routines, or maybe it's a bit of equipment that the staff are not wearing or something, or they're wanting to make changes to a particular schedule for a program.
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:33.839
Well, he could take a competing approach.
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:36.079
Sometimes this is called directing.
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:38.000
This is the way that it's going to be.
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:41.920
You're going to do this and you're going to do this, and it's not negotiable.
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:50.720
With that competing approach, it doesn't necessarily mean that we're harsh or disrespectful or rude or mean.
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:55.920
It just means that we're firm, we stick to our guns, we hold on to our boundaries.
00:32:56.079 --> 00:33:00.880
So a low tone of voice, slower speed, lower volume, this is the way that it is.
00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:02.480
Look, it's not negotiable.
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:06.079
If I have to talk to you about this again, this is what's going to happen.
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:12.160
Or at the other end of the spectrum, there might be some instances where Ron could just be accommodating.
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:17.680
Like there might be some elements of what the younger staff members are requesting where it's fine.
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:26.000
Either he agrees it would improve things following their suggestion, or maybe it's not the end of the world just to give them what they're asking for.
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:30.720
A lot of the time, these older staff, they become a little bit stubborn.
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:37.759
And as a mediator, one of the things that I often come in talking to them about is, well, where do you have some flexibility here?
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:40.640
Like where are the things that are just not negotiable?
00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:42.720
And where is there some wiggle room?
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:51.759
And even if you don't know what the answer might be, which are the topics that you're at least prepared to discuss to discuss in the mediation session itself?
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:58.079
If you're the team leader, if you're Ron, it might be to discuss in the team meeting or discuss with me directly.
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:00.160
Now he's got three other options.
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:04.559
Instead of just saying yes or just saying no, he could avoid the conflict.
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:14.960
Maybe he's seen a little bit of negative talk in the lunchroom, or he's aware a couple of people were upset about a decision that was made because he's heard about it third hand or something.
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:17.119
But it might not be the end of the world.
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:24.639
Like this might be the kind of situation where something's happening that that shouldn't be, but you know, it's not the time and place to deal with it.
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:36.960
Either I've got other priorities that I'm dealing with at the moment, or maybe it's a different person that would be better dealing with it first, like a junior manager rather than calling me in as a senior manager immediately or something similar.
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:40.000
It would be really dependent on what's going on, wouldn't it?
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:43.519
So we could avoid, at least temporarily.
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:49.679
That's not going to lead to a whole lot of long-term resolution, but at least in the short term, it might make sense.
00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:52.880
We could compromise, that's where we split the difference.
00:34:53.119 --> 00:35:04.559
If they want to completely not come into the office on Thursdays, maybe we agree to come in every second Thursday, or just come in, but you can leave early at three o'clock to beat the traffic or something.
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:07.760
Or we could think about options for collaborating.
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:11.280
Like maybe we meet and do a lot of work together as a group.
00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:17.519
So the individual people are on hand to support one another in the data entry kind of issues.
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:26.079
Or maybe we change the structure of the reporting, or we change the structure of the communication, or we change the structure of the way that decisions get made.
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:36.320
Like we let them make decisions more at a local level first, and then they provide us with monthly updates that are more detail-oriented than they had previously because of that.
00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:41.360
Again, this really depends on what's at stake and what's involved in the situation that you're dealing with.
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:44.960
But it's very helpful to be aware of these five options.
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:47.199
When does it make sense to compete?
00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:49.360
When does it make sense to accommodate?
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:51.360
When does it make sense to avoid?
00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:53.280
When should we compromise?
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:56.159
And when is it worthwhile to collaborate?
00:35:56.400 --> 00:36:03.920
And that last option, it's sort of like where we sit down or we go back and forth and we see if we can come up with a win-win.
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:07.119
Like there might actually be a solution that works for both of them.
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:12.800
Maybe Ron would be willing to use this other set of software that's a middle ground.
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:23.679
It's a little bit similar to the ones that he's used previously, so it's more familiar, but it's got more potential or these different features, so the young person can make use of it in a different kind of way.
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:35.360
Or maybe Ron agrees that in this current project that they're working on, that the apprentice will just follow the instructions that they've been given, that the machine operators will just follow the instructions they've been given.
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:54.480
But after the next financial year or when this next order comes through, that's when the young machiner operators would have the opportunity to do something and be put in charge, have more authentiautonomy and flexibility, I suppose, but potentially also be responsible for the output that's delivered.
00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:57.599
So there might be some win-win that's possible there.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:36:58.639
Not always.
00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:02.960
Like there isn't necessarily going to be a win-win in every conflict that we're dealing with.
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:06.719
Sometimes it makes sense just to be competing or split the difference.
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:10.079
If you don't have much time and there's not much at stake, then why not?
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:14.639
Collaborating, it sounds ideal, but it's not always possible.
00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:17.360
And there are also drawbacks to that approach.
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:22.800
It takes time and effort in the back and forth, seeing if you can come up with an option that works for everyone.
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:25.840
So you have to have meetings, you have to write emails, etc.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:33.840
And in the meantime, while all of this back and forth is going on, there's also the potential for the conflict to get worse behind the scenes.
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:44.480
There might be another thing that you're negotiating about with this staff member, and until they hear back from you about the first issue that's really important to them, they're not going to budge on this other thing.
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:52.480
Or because they haven't heard back from you, they end up looking on a job search site, see another job that's advertised, and then you lose a good staff member.
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:59.840
Whereas at least if you'd compromised, you would have gotten to a quick outcome and at least there would be more of an immediate resolution.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:06.960
So which one of these different conflict styles makes b make sense really depends on the situation and what's at stake.
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:13.199
If I was in Ron's position here, I think personally I would be inclined to be quite collaborative.
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:18.320
I would want to set down some meetings or organize some times to talk it through.
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:26.719
But I know a lot of other people, they would be much more firm than I would be, or others would be much more soft and accommodating and just go with the flow.
00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:53.519
This isn't really about right and wrong, but when we use frameworks like the ones that I've talked about today, it can be incredibly helpful both for coming up with options and developing a strategic plan, but also helping us to differentiate from the conflict so that we're not sitting there percolating away, stewing in it, and it all feels much more personal and we get more highly charged with emotions and all that stuff over time as well, don't we?
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:56.239
But I don't know, how does that all sit with you?
00:38:56.400 --> 00:39:00.480
Would you take a different approach than I would in any of those different case studies?
00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:03.679
Would you have sided with Ron over the machine operators?
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:10.559
Or maybe you think Ron is stuck in the mud, kind of fogey that needs to update his models or something.
00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:32.320
Maybe it was the leading hand in the apprentice clash that I talked about in some of those challenges giving feedback, or it might have been with poor Helen dealing with the um Slack updates issues and those kind of ones, where I suggested that potentially we could turn the conversation towards structure, interests, or data rather than just values in that example.
00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:34.239
But I don't know, I'd love to hear from you.
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:36.559
If you'd like to get in touch, you can shoot me an email.
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:38.960
It's podcast at simongood.com.
00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:43.360
If you would like more resources for dealing with conflict, please consider hitting subscribe.
00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:46.480
Or if you're on Apple Podcasts, I think that it's follow.
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:50.559
I'd love to hear from you if you want to put a comment down below or something like that as well.
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:54.960
Those little things are incredibly helpful for the algorithm for little podcasts like this.
00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:58.719
And otherwise, thank you very much for listening or watching if you're watching the video.
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:03.920
And I'll hopefully see you again in a future episode of the Conflict Skills Podcast.
00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:26.879
Well, hello, welcome back to the Conflict Skills Podcast.
00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:29.839
I'm your host, professional mediator, Simon Good.
00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:33.600
I set up this podcast to provide free resources and tools for dealing with conflict.
00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:38.159
So if that sounds like the kind of thing that's useful to you, please consider pressing subscribe.
00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:44.320
Well, in the episode today, I'm going to be talking about the topic of generational conflict in the workplace.
00:00:44.560 --> 00:01:02.479
This is a commonly raised issue when I'm doing workplace mediations and resolving conflict directly, but I've noticed that also the leadership coaching and the training that I do around managing difficult conversations and those kind of areas often does also involve an element of generational differences.
00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:13.120
If it's not something that you've considered or done any reading or training on previously, these generational difference challenges can be incredibly difficult to deal with, can't they?
00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:21.200
In the moment, as this very, I guess, divergent set of expectations that a young staff member might have as opposed to the old.
00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:30.079
Of course, the people who are in the older stages of life and they often have more experience by that stage as well, have grown up in a completely different world.
00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:37.680
A lot of the time they were apprentices or graduates, newly, newly um employed trainees.
00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:44.239
And there really has been a top-down leadership style in a lot of, at least in Australian businesses historically.
00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:51.439
So people who are my parents' age, for example, in their 60s, they often are used to speaking in a very direct kind of way.
00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:52.640
You need to do this.
00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:57.120
And of course, that's the way that their boss talked to them in their early stages of their career.
00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:09.120
These days, though, we've got the Millennials coming through, the Gen, we had the Gen Xs, and then we've got the Gen Ys, the Millennials, and now the Gen Z are coming through as well, the staff members in their 20s at the moment.
00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:11.919
And there are these very different sets of norms.
00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:27.280
Again, a lot of the time when I'm dealing with managers or business owners and we're talking about workplace conflict, one of the things that we often discuss and reflect on is the fact that there will always be conflict in every set of in every relationship that you've got, basically.
00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:35.360
In every set of communications, in every set of tasks that you've got to deal with someone, even, there's the potential for conflict to be there.
00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:43.280
And conflict doesn't necessarily mean that there's huge amounts of animosity, there's large, strong emotions involved or something like that.
00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:47.120
It might just be the meeting of this different set of expectations.
00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:55.280
But when it comes to generational differences, what I've noticed is this often begins a snowball that builds over time.
00:02:55.439 --> 00:03:05.599
There might be this different starting point in terms of the expectations, but the way that that's dealt with often leads to a whole bunch of secondary issues that emerge.
00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:10.240
A young staff member might feel like they're being micromanaged, for example.
00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:18.479
And the boss, the supervisor, the leading hand might think, geez, this young person just doesn't know how to show initiative.
00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:21.439
I need to spoon feed them instructions or something similar.
00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:26.800
Ironically, it's probably something that both of them would like to be different than how it is at the moment.
00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:32.800
And yet it's challenging to find the right language and how to actually go about that kind of a discussion.
00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:39.120
It could also be things like young people are often described as being hyper-vigilant to feedback.
00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:40.400
They're so sensitive.
00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:50.000
You give them some feedback or you give them a bit of direct input or something, and they take it so personally and they get so upset and carry a grudge or something.
00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:51.360
Well, that's probably true.
00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:54.719
Young people often do find feedback very confronting.
00:03:55.039 --> 00:03:59.360
But if we just assume that it's all the young person's fault and why don't they just get over it?
00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:04.159
Obviously that leads to a likely future that's pretty similar to what we're living at the moment.
00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:05.919
There's an old saying that I really like.
00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:10.159
If you continue to do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've already got.
00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:19.120
So I'm going to go through three different conflict resolution case studies, similar to the previous conflict resolution case studies that I've analyzed.
00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:20.639
I'm going to be annotating.
00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:27.839
If you'd like to watch on the screen, I've got a video going at the same time, but I'll do my best to make sure that I describe it if you're just listening.
00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:33.920
The three different situations that we're dealing with is a leading hand and an apprentice having a clash.
00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:37.439
We've got a generational difference in terms of work style.
00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:40.720
This is an accounting firm, and it's a team leader, Helen.
00:04:41.120 --> 00:05:00.160
And then in the final case study, we've got a different situation where we've got somebody with more experience and probably a little bit of a track record under their belt as well, but also a reasonably well-defined steps and processes that they normally follow versus a young person coming in and they want to change things up.
00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:02.240
They want to shake things around, I guess.
00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:08.399
Now, as I go through these different situations, my goal isn't necessarily to come up with the single answer.
00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:12.560
I think there's probably multiple ways that we could deal with this kind of an issue.
00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:19.600
And even in terms of the specific language that we use, for example, you might have slightly different phrasing than I would use.
00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:23.600
Like I've got my own cultural background and my own set of norms, I guess.
00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:30.800
It's interesting though, when we think about generational differences, I wonder what kind of conflict do you think that is?
00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:36.240
Is it data conflict that maybe we just need to clarify the expectations moving forward?
00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:39.519
Or do you think about it as relationship conflict?
00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:45.040
It's the frustrations, it's the rubbing each other the wrong way that ultimately drives a lot of the issues.
00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:50.879
You might think about it as interest conflict, this young person trying to escape work, you know what I mean?
00:05:51.040 --> 00:06:01.600
Then they're wanting to avoid doing something that's difficult, or they want a promotion, they expect to be the CEO of the company after they've been in a job for a few years or whatever else it might be.
00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:05.839
So it could be tangible interests, what's in it for me versus what's in it for you.
00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:08.160
Or we could even think about the structure.
00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:16.000
Maybe this is the way that we do updates or the way that we give feedback, the way that we request information from the younger person that we're dealing with.
00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:19.199
For me, though, it's not necessarily any of those fours.
00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:24.000
It could be all of them, relationship, data, structure, or interest.
00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:30.160
A lot of the time, though, I think it's this final type of conflict, which is value conflict.
00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:34.240
I'll just scroll down so you can see these on the screen if you're watching.
00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:41.600
This value conflict to me is often at the heart of a lot of the generational challenges that we deal with.
00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:47.759
It's my idea about what should happen, what's normal, what's professional, what's respectful.
00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:52.800
Where's the line between giving somebody feedback and it becoming micromanagement?
00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:59.680
Where's the line between somebody being oversensitive and an appropriate level of feed?
00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:00.800
What would you say?
00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:08.000
It's like an appropriate accepting of responsibility for your own behavior and the consequences of what happened regardless of your intentions.
00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:12.240
Like we've all got slightly different perspectives on all of these elements.
00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:22.000
When we think about generational differences and a lot of the conflict that falls out of that, to me, it often makes sense to start with this value conflict type.
00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:32.079
Whereas in data conflict, we would work towards clarifying expectations or interest conflict, we might we might approach that one negotiating strategically.
00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:38.639
When it comes to value conflict, the steps that often work are normalizing and clarifying the differences.
00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:46.959
And then setting up a conversation about the future and the solutions.
00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:59.279
So I want to talk through what is going to work in terms of tweaks that we could use, what makes sense in terms of other people that we could engage to get some support at dealing with this issue.
00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:07.839
It's the differences themselves, and then when we have the discussion about the future, that's often where we begin to make progress in this type of value conflict.
00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:16.160
Whereas I think a lot of people approach this as you're wrong and I'm right, you need to understand this, you need to realize this.
00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:23.600
What often that does is it invites the other person to take the opposite, the opposite chair in the debate.
00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:33.279
If we're saying how great this is and how much they should follow our advice, well, they're likely to tell us how bad the advice is and how much it doesn't make sense to follow it, right?
00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:38.559
Whereas if we begin by saying, look, it seems like we've got quite different perspectives here.
00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:39.519
That makes sense.
00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:43.840
We've got different experiences, so we've probably got slightly different norms that we have here.
00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:44.639
That's okay.
00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:46.799
We can talk these things through.
00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:52.080
Maybe let's think about what is needed to get on the same page moving forward.
00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:53.679
So I'm not saying you're wrong.
00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:58.399
It's more like these are the two approaches, you know, how are we going to figure this out?
00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:08.960
If we think about a single example of generational conflict, a very common one that I'm told is I've got a young staff member and they don't like picking up the phone.
00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:11.440
They won't just pick up the phone and call somebody.
00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:15.279
Well, that's an example where we could deal with that single issue in isolation.
00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:19.200
It's the behavior of not making a call when you've been requested.
00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:29.679
But in terms of how we actually deal with it, we could deal with it in terms of the data, clarifying that it's not negotiable, it's part of your job description, or doing it in terms of the interest.
00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:33.759
If you don't make the phone call, this is the punishment that you might have to deal with.
00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:37.360
Or if you do make the phone call, this is the reward that I can offer you.
00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:39.679
The carrots and the sticks kind of approach.
00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:41.679
Maybe we could change the structure.
00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:55.039
We do all of our phone calls together in the morning as a team so that we don't have as much of a sense of everybody else in the office sitting there listening to us if we're all head down and going for it, then nobody feels as self-conscious, for example.
00:09:55.279 --> 00:09:58.000
Or we could deal with it in terms of the values.
00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:02.320
I wonder if you're wondering why I'm even asking you to make these phone calls.
00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:07.039
It seems like to you, this isn't necessarily what you would want if you were the customer anyway.
00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:11.600
After all, you've said you prefer to get emails rather than phone calls, generally speaking.
00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:13.200
It's not just at work.
00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:16.960
I know for me myself and other people, we've got a different focus.
00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:20.799
We would prefer to have the opportunity to talk with someone on the phone.
00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:30.080
Given the fact that this is the way that I've seen it work previously, or given the fact that this is what at stake, or based on all of those elements, could you do this?
00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:31.120
Could we do this?
00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:41.840
You might decide to be quite competing and be very assertive, or this might be the kind of situation where it makes sense to collaborate, see if there is some kind of a win-win that you can get to here.
00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:51.840
So we're keeping this in mind of all of the different conflict types, a lot of the time when we're thinking about generational differences, we're dealing with value conflict.
00:10:52.000 --> 00:11:03.600
And the approach that often works there is normalizing both perspectives, validating them if needed and if possible, and then shifting the conversation towards the future and the solutions.
00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:06.240
Alright, so let's have a look at this first case study.
00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:10.000
We've got the leading hand and the apprentice in a bit of a clash here.
00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:15.279
I'll read up first, then I'll talk about a few of the elements that jump out at me.
00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:23.919
As you're listening, you might like to consider how would you approach this situation if you were in either of these parties' shoes.
00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:25.519
So here we go.
00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:35.919
On a busy construction site, experienced leading hand Dave in his mid-50s grew increasingly frustrated with 19-year-old apprentice Jake.
00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:39.039
I'm just going to underline that word increasingly.
00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:48.000
One of the things that I often notice, again, when I'm called in externally and there's workplace conflict going on is that it almost never happens in a single incident.
00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:53.600
It's typical that there's been pressure or tension building up over time, sometimes years.
00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:59.519
So this increasing level of frustration, I would be a little bit curious about that if I was dealing with this.
00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:02.639
How long has Dave been feeling frustrated?
00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:05.200
And I wonder if Jake picks up on that.
00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:09.279
How has Dave communicated about that previously, or how did he manage it?
00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:11.759
And what's Jake's take on that?
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:18.399
If Dave was frustrated and Jake was aware of it, is he motivated to do anything different?
00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:26.399
Dave expected quiet observation, quick responses to instructions, and careful attention to traditional methods.
00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:28.399
So I'm just going to jot down a couple of these.
00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:34.320
These are what I think of as these values, these are the underlying norms and expectations that we have.
00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:43.759
So we've got we wanted him to just be quiet and watch, respond quickly when we ask him to do something, and careful attention to the traditional methods.
00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:56.399
Jake often asked why certain steps were necessary, suggested faster digital tools he had learned at trade school, and sometimes appeared distracted on his phone during quiet moments.
00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:01.360
So we've got a few elements again of the conflict and how it's playing out.
00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:10.159
We've got the suggestions about the faster digital tools, asking why, why certain steps were necessary, and then the distracted on the phone.
00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:21.279
I have to say, of all of the different types of conflict that people talk about, staff members using their phone is a very, very common one for managers and team leaders, and it can be very challenging to deal with.
00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:23.279
And there's something about it, isn't it?
00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:27.279
It's not just the fact that they're wasting time and they're getting paid for it.
00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:31.279
It's something about the attitude of you just couldn't be bothered.
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:39.840
You could be looking around and seeing if someone else needs a hand or seeing if there's something that needs doing, but instead you're selfishly scrolling.
00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:42.080
Now it might not be selfish scrolling at all.
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:45.600
Jake might be looking and see if his kids are okay at the childcare.
00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:48.879
He might have an elderly parent that's in the emergency room at the moment.
00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:49.919
Like we don't know.
00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:54.960
But when we see the person using their phone, we tend to jump to the worst conclusions, don't we?
00:13:55.200 --> 00:14:00.559
So I wonder amongst all of those different elements, which of those are actually pushing Dave's buttons?
00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:08.399
It could be that because he sees him using his phone, that all of the other elements become much more frustrating as a result.
00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:13.279
We've all got different things that push our buttons, don't we?
00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:18.559
In a similar way to the people that we'll come across, some people that we meet, we just naturally resonate.
00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:20.080
Other people, it's the opposite.
00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:22.879
We rub each other the wrong way almost from the word go.
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:28.399
And I think the same thing is true about the different habits and behaviors that people can have.
00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.279
Using your phone, staff members using your phone.
00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:34.639
That might not be something that you care about at all if it's your team.
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:38.080
Other people, though, they bristle as soon as they see it.
00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:46.080
Dave began raising his voice when corrections were needed, openly criticized Jake in front of the crew for not listening.
00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:49.120
Okay, raising his voice, open criticism.
00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:56.480
Jake responded by becoming quieter and more withdrawn, occasionally muttering that Dave was stuck in the past.
00:14:57.279 --> 00:15:01.759
Okay, well the passive aggressive kind of like mumble something as you're walking away.
00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:03.279
That's pretty tricky, isn't it?
00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:12.799
Other workers noticed the tension, job progress slowed on shared tasks, and the daily atmosphere on site became noticeably more strained.
00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:14.960
Oh, it's very tricky, isn't it?
00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:18.000
So how should we go about dealing with this issue?
00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:23.600
Let's imagine that we were Dave and we were wanting to do something about Jake.
00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:28.480
Well, I suppose one of the mistakes that we don't want to repeat is doing it in public.
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:33.519
This open criticism, obviously, that's going to add an element of pressure.
00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.720
There's an element of self-consciousness that would creep in.
00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:47.600
These days, like we might have to give a presentation and we're standing up in front of our staff or out in front of our team, and our heart races, and we might tell ourselves, oh, I'm being silly, I'm overreacting.
00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:49.519
And criticism is very similar.
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:53.679
Like Dave might be thinking, Dave, Jake, like just get over it, mate.
00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:54.960
I was just giving you a bit of feedback.
00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:59.039
We've all had to cop it at different moments in our career, mate, like grow up.
00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:03.200
But there's something about the criticism in front of your colleagues.
00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:05.759
We're wired to be sensitive to this.
00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:08.639
We're wired for it not to just go through Little Keeper.
00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:12.559
These days we might tell ourselves we're being silly or overreacting.
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:23.200
But if we think about historically living in a tribe and all of the people that were watching you, all of the people in your tribe that were staring at you in one moment, that wasn't necessarily a safe spot to be.
00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:27.600
You might have been accused of something, there might have been something negative about to happen.
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:32.320
Like blending into the flock is something that we tend to feel a lot more comfortable with.
00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:44.240
And especially for young people, that open criticism in front of others, I would say that there's almost like a 0% chance of Jake actually taking in the feedback when it's given in that way.
00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:48.480
So instead of doing it in public, we would want to do it somewhere private.
00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:54.559
And I probably would think about different ways that we could emphasize Jake's status too.
00:16:54.799 --> 00:17:00.240
Look, mate, you know, I've been noticing a few things and I just want to touch base about how you're traveling.
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:04.319
For me, this is a really important relationship, the supervisor and apprentice.
00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:08.720
All of the relationships I've had with previous apprentices have been different.
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:14.160
So I'd really like to take a bit of time to get to know you and hear about how you're traveling as part of this.
00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:21.119
I'd like to hear your take on some of the clashes that we've had previously and what you would like to see from me different moving forward.
00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:28.720
And I wonder if you would be open for me describing some of the stuff I've noticed, and maybe we could have a bit of a talk about expectations as well.
00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:29.920
What do you reckon?
00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:34.799
So I'm approaching this in a reasonably deferential, respectful kind of way.
00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:36.000
G'day, Jake.
00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:37.200
Look, mate, you matter.
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:39.039
I'm taking this seriously.
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.119
Let's organize the time to talk it through.
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:44.160
Let's organize a time to figure out what's going to work moving forward.
00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:51.119
And all of the language that I would use would be that kind of stuff, focused on the future and on the solutions where possible.
00:17:51.440 --> 00:18:04.960
If I decide to give him feedback, like if I'm saying to him you're too sensitive or you just need to follow the instructions that you're given instead of suggesting all these new tool, new methods or something, we would want to focus on the behavior.
00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:06.400
Could you stop doing this?
00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:07.519
Could you start doing this?
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:09.119
Could you do this differently?
00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:13.839
As soon as we're saying, you know, you just have not you got no idea, mate.
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:17.440
You got no idea what life's in the real world, what life's like in the real world.
00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:24.240
As soon as we paint these labels, like you're not taking this job seriously, you got a bad attitude, you're always negative.
00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:31.680
As soon as we paint the person with those labels, it tends to just trigger defensiveness because of course it just comes across as criticism.
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:38.319
So where I'm wanting to talk about feedback, I would drill down to the behaviors as much as possible.
00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:46.640
So they might be the things like paying attention, it might be the methodology and just following the instructions that you've been given.
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:51.359
Um, it might be something about using your phone, especially when customers are on site.
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:52.799
How would we deal with this?
00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:56.240
So those would be the elements that I would want to focus on.
00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:06.319
If I was in Dave's position, personally I'd probably spend a few minutes writing down some notes for myself because it can be tricky coming up with the right words in the heat of the moment.
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.079
But we're all going to have a slightly different idea of what preparing looks like.
00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:12.720
But we've got preparing for the issue itself.
00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:14.799
Like what how am I going to tell him this?
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:19.519
Maybe there's a way that I can frame it in a mutual and neutral way.
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:33.680
Like it seems like we've um had some crosswires recently, or it seems like maybe both of us have been noticing things that we would like to be different, but we haven't actually had a time to talk it through and clarifying it.
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.000
Like it's a very mutual way of raising the issue.
00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:40.720
Hey, mate, I just want to talk about how things have been over the last couple of weeks within the team.
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:47.359
Instead of saying, I want to talk to you about and about your bad attitude, I want to talk to you about your bloody poor performance, mate.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:48.079
It's ridiculous.
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:49.440
You need to pull your socks up.
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:53.680
Okay, well, good luck if that's the way that we've decided to approach the conflict, right?
00:19:54.559 --> 00:20:06.160
So I would do that feedback in a way that reaffirms status, low tone of voice, slow speed, lower volume, do it somewhere privately, sit at the same level instead of standing.
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:08.559
I might just go for a walk and get a coffee or something.
00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:12.559
That would be another good option as well of chatting while we're walking next to each other.
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:21.279
But I want to do whatever I can to lower the stakes, to decrease that sense of perceived pressure, and to decrease that sense of perceived threat.
00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:26.079
Alright, let's have a look at the next case study and maybe think about what might work here.
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.480
We've got an accounting firm this time, and it's a team leader, Helen.
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:41.920
In a mid-sized accounting firm, team leader Helen, aged 58, preferred detailed reports, face-to-face meetings, and strict adherence to established processes.
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:50.559
Her younger team members, mostly in their 20s, favored quick Slack updates, collaborative online documents, flexible remote check-ins.
00:20:51.200 --> 00:21:03.599
When Helen insisted on returning full in-office to full in-office days and paper-based review cycles, several younger staff pushed back, arguing the old method slowed everything down.
00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:07.039
Helen felt disrespected and believed they lacked discipline.
00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:21.440
Sharp comments were exchanged in team meetings and emails grew formal and defensive, and collaboration on client files became slower as both sides stuck rigidly to their preferred ways of working.
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:22.720
Oh my goodness.
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.960
So there's a few elements that already sound very difficult to manage, aren't there?
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:29.920
This whole, like, do you prefer to be in the office or not?
00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:41.440
That could almost be an entirely separate episode of the Conflict Skills podcast, I think, because there's a lot of workplace conflict about whether or not we can work remotely and what these expectations are really achieving here.
00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:49.599
But let's focus more on the perspectives, the the underlying factors that have led to these expectations being developed.
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:51.680
So Helen's in that older category.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:54.160
We've got a younger team mostly in their 20s.
00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:59.759
So they're favoring the quick Slack updates, collaborative online documents, and flexible remote.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:00.720
Check-ins.
00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:10.400
So although these probably seem like a whole bunch of issues that are connected, it might be possible for Helen to separate these.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:14.160
Again, what I often find helpful is drilling down to the behavior.
00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:18.240
Like what kind of updates are we talking about here that they prefer Slack for?
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:20.000
In what setting are they used?
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:21.519
Why do they prefer it?
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:23.920
Um, is there any tweaks that we could use?
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:32.319
For example, we still use Slack, but we have a pro forma of these four questions that people will answer each time they give an update.
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:37.839
So at least it means that we've got some consistency in the information that's being captured or something.
00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:44.640
Or maybe we do use Slack, but we use an AI bot to listen to it and then send us out notes afterwards.
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:47.039
So at least we've got a written record.
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:55.920
For this kind of stuff, like the way that communication happens and the way that decisions get made, this is what I think of as structural conflict.
00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:04.240
Whereas I talked about the values that are underlying that, it's possible here that Helen might decide instead to just focus on the structure.
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:08.559
That's fine with me as long as we include these things, or as long as we follow this structure.
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:14.480
That's fine with me as long as we can make sure that each person gives an update once a week or something similar.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:22.480
So depending on what's at stake and how much time they have, this would be where Helen would need to decide how assertive to be here.
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:29.680
In some situations, there's enough at stake and it makes sense to stick to your guns and just to say no, this is the way it's going to be.
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:40.240
In other situations, maybe we could take more of a meet them in the middle kind of approach, split the difference, or maybe think, is there another option that could work here as a win-win potentially?
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.880
So we've got each of those different elements to some extent in isolation.
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:51.759
The Slack updates, then we've got the collaborative online documents, then we've got the flexible remote check-ins.
00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:55.440
Now here's where I think it comes to the crunch.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:24:05.599
When Helen insisted on returning to full in-office days and paper-based review cycles, several younger staff pushed back.
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:08.799
So what was leading up to that?
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:13.279
I wonder what the process was that Helen used to introduce that change.
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:18.400
Was it something that there was a consultation process around and there was a collaborative effort?
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:19.759
I don't think so.
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.960
It sounds to me like these younger staff are feeling much more like it's a top-down decision that's been made.
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:37.359
So for me, when I've been in the younger staff members' shoes, I've often needed to find a way to manage up then and deal with my manager who might have more of a buy the book black and white kind of perspective than I do.
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:44.079
So I would be, I think, as the young person here saying to Helen, how much flexibility is there around this?
00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:50.000
When you say we're moving to paper-based review cycles, which elements of those do you have in mind?
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:54.319
Are you talking about the quarterly meetings that we have with our operations manager?
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:56.799
Is it the way that our KPIs are measured?
00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:58.559
Like, what are we talking about here?
00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:04.640
So get the specifics and then choose how assertive that you need to be based on all of those different issues.
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:07.759
As the staff member, it might not be that you've got a lot of power.
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:11.200
It might just be this is how we would like it, and they say no.
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:15.440
And then ultimately the choice that you have is how long you stay with the organization.
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:23.920
If you're Helen or if you're in more of a powerful position, I suppose, in the dynamic, that's where we could consider, well, what can we influence here?
00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:26.079
So what's the pushback about?
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.559
Is it about coming in physically?
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:32.240
Is it about the time that's needed with the paper review cycles?
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:43.839
When they talk about slowing, like our work becoming slower, or the fact that old methods are slowing everything down, this is where we would probably want to drill down to the data.
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:46.720
Sorry, can you please fill me in on what you mean by that?
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:50.799
When you say that there's been delays, which projects are you referring to?
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:58.640
When you say that you haven't been sure what's expected because everything is so confusing, in what situations are you feeling that way?
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:00.400
Is it about reporting?
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:05.039
Are you talking about the way that you're given instructions and the way that delegation happens?
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:09.200
Is this something to do with data entry or your own report writing?
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:11.200
Like what are we talking about here?
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:16.880
As long as we can get down to the specifics, then what it means is we can talk about interests.
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:20.559
So I would probably start here with with structure.
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:26.400
Maybe there is a different kind of document management system using Slack in a different way, that could work.
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:30.000
Then we would probably move to either interests or data.
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:34.640
We could either clarify the facts and drill into, hang on, I haven't noticed that.
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:36.319
Can you tell me a bit more about this?
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:42.960
Or something you might not be aware of is actually this, like this is an organizational initiative that's across the board.
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:47.440
Well, maybe if Helen explains that to them, then there wouldn't be as much resistance.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.680
Or maybe again Helen needs to consider the carrots and the sticks.
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:59.519
I know that it's not something that sounds ideal to you, and you're right, there wasn't much of a consultation process before this decision was made.
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:03.920
Given all of that, it is something that there's not any flexibility around.
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:12.799
So could you please let me know what would work for you in terms of organizing the office so that you've got a workspace here that does meet your needs while you're in the office?
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:23.440
It's possible that we can revisit this and renegotiate next financial year after the current agreement ends or whatever, but not necessarily.
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:29.359
So to some extent, I guess I take your point, I appreciate your feedback and I get where you're coming from.
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:32.799
This is a decision that we don't have a lot of leeway regarding.
00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:35.200
For me, I like to use that kind of language.
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.880
It's not flexible or it's not something that I can agree to.
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:40.559
So what do they want?
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:48.960
And then I would either say yes or no, or I would proactively consider: well, is this the kind of situation where I need to actually make a threat?
00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:56.559
Like if they continue to use the old system and I've asked them to make a change, at some stage the manager needs to decide how long we let this go.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:59.680
And that can be one of the most challenging things to deal with as well.
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:02.400
Just what's the right moment to raise this issue?
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:04.559
Like I've seen this happen a few times before.
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:12.160
I know these people are very sensitive to feedback, and I don't want to trigger them, I don't want to push their buttons and set them off on negative spirals.
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:15.039
You've really got a dilemma on your hands, don't you?
00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:18.799
Choosing between two bad options in a lot of those situations.
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.680
Okay, so let's have a look at that third case study.
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:25.039
We've got experience versus new ideas.
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:36.720
At a manufacturing plant, Ron serving long-serving supervisor Ron in his early 60s clashed with a group of younger machine operators in their 20s.
00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:46.160
Ron trusted proven routines developed over decades and resisted changing to shift patterns or the introduction of new monitoring software.
00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:54.960
The younger operators saw the software as a clear efficiency gain and grew impatient with what they viewed as unnecessary resistance.
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:59.519
During a shift handover meeting, the disagreement became heated.
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:03.039
During a shift handover meeting, the disagreement became heated.
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:07.519
Ron accused the younger staff of lacking respect for experience.
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:10.559
They replied that he was blocking progress.
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:24.319
Voices rose, other workers fell silent, and the rest of the shift proceeded with minimal communication between the two groups, leaving production coordination uneven and the overall mood on the floor tense.
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:31.599
Hmm, I feel like I'm having a little bit of deja vu to a couple of the mediations that I did when I was living in Newcastle a while ago.
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:42.480
We were often dealing with manufacturing or steelworks kind of facilities and a lot of these shift-change kind of challenges they were dealing with every day.
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:49.519
So we've got the manufacturing plant, the long-serving supervisor Ron, and he's clashing with a group of younger machine operators.
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:57.680
It's often the way, it's not just one person versus one person, especially as the conflict involves and develops over weeks and months.
00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:08.640
A lot of the time other people become involved, either enlisted as allies, you know, someone in the lunchroom, it's like, let me tell you about this next bloody thing Rob d Ron did yesterday.
00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:23.680
Or it might be more like vicarious victims that are sitting there in the lunchroom trying to eat their sandwich in peace, and Ron comes in, you know, blowing his spilling his guts about how annoying these young machine operators or something similar.
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:25.599
So where are they clashing here?
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:34.880
Ron has trusted proven routines, developed over decades, and resisted changes to shift patterns or the introduction of new monitoring software.
00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:43.519
The younger operators saw the software as a clear efficiency gain and grew impatient with what they viewed as unnecessary resistance.
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:49.759
So again, I think we would approach this one from either of their perspectives as a difference in values.
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:51.359
I can get where you're coming from.
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:54.640
This routine is something that you developed literally over 20 years.
00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:58.720
So it makes sense then why for you, why would you be second guessing this?
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:03.119
I mean, you've probably tried a lot of the options that come to mind for us already.
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:11.440
At the same time, the way that we tend to work is that we like to have some element of autonomy, some element of creativity.
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:21.599
A lot of the time we're willing to be given instructions, but ultimately if it's just do A, then B, then C, then you're going to find that engagement within the team drops over time.
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:32.799
I'm wondering if maybe there might be some middle ground where we do have more consistency and that would probably allow for more, I don't know, higher levels of output or something similar.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:43.759
And then there might be some other areas as well where you can give us a little bit more flexibility or consider one of us to be in charge of the next initiative that gets rolled out within the organization.
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:46.160
Like obviously, that's language that I would use.
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:50.559
It's probably a bit more wordy than a lot of people, but the same approach could work.
00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:54.319
It's, hey, is there some middle ground that we can reach here and compromise?
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:57.599
Or maybe there's some opportunity for collaborating.
00:31:58.160 --> 00:32:06.640
One of the things that I often talk about when I'm meeting with the RONs or with the young machine operators are these five uh conflict modes.
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:10.240
I'll just scroll down so that you can see them on the screen if you're looking.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:14.559
Compete, collaborate, compromise, avoid, and accommodate.
00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:20.240
So these are five different options that we've got for dealing with each instance of conflict.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:31.279
For Ron, this could be something to do with the routines, or maybe it's a bit of equipment that the staff are not wearing or something, or they're wanting to make changes to a particular schedule for a program.
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:33.839
Well, he could take a competing approach.
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:36.079
Sometimes this is called directing.
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:38.000
This is the way that it's going to be.
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:41.920
You're going to do this and you're going to do this, and it's not negotiable.
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:50.720
With that competing approach, it doesn't necessarily mean that we're harsh or disrespectful or rude or mean.
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:55.920
It just means that we're firm, we stick to our guns, we hold on to our boundaries.
00:32:56.079 --> 00:33:00.880
So a low tone of voice, slower speed, lower volume, this is the way that it is.
00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:02.480
Look, it's not negotiable.
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:06.079
If I have to talk to you about this again, this is what's going to happen.
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:12.160
Or at the other end of the spectrum, there might be some instances where Ron could just be accommodating.
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:17.680
Like there might be some elements of what the younger staff members are requesting where it's fine.
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:26.000
Either he agrees it would improve things following their suggestion, or maybe it's not the end of the world just to give them what they're asking for.
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:30.720
A lot of the time, these older staff, they become a little bit stubborn.
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:37.759
And as a mediator, one of the things that I often come in talking to them about is, well, where do you have some flexibility here?
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:40.640
Like where are the things that are just not negotiable?
00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:42.720
And where is there some wiggle room?
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:51.759
And even if you don't know what the answer might be, which are the topics that you're at least prepared to discuss to discuss in the mediation session itself?
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:58.079
If you're the team leader, if you're Ron, it might be to discuss in the team meeting or discuss with me directly.
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:00.160
Now he's got three other options.
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:04.559
Instead of just saying yes or just saying no, he could avoid the conflict.
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:14.960
Maybe he's seen a little bit of negative talk in the lunchroom, or he's aware a couple of people were upset about a decision that was made because he's heard about it third hand or something.
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:17.119
But it might not be the end of the world.
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:24.639
Like this might be the kind of situation where something's happening that that shouldn't be, but you know, it's not the time and place to deal with it.
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:36.960
Either I've got other priorities that I'm dealing with at the moment, or maybe it's a different person that would be better dealing with it first, like a junior manager rather than calling me in as a senior manager immediately or something similar.
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:40.000
It would be really dependent on what's going on, wouldn't it?
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:43.519
So we could avoid, at least temporarily.
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:49.679
That's not going to lead to a whole lot of long-term resolution, but at least in the short term, it might make sense.
00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:52.880
We could compromise, that's where we split the difference.
00:34:53.119 --> 00:35:04.559
If they want to completely not come into the office on Thursdays, maybe we agree to come in every second Thursday, or just come in, but you can leave early at three o'clock to beat the traffic or something.
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:07.760
Or we could think about options for collaborating.
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:11.280
Like maybe we meet and do a lot of work together as a group.
00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:17.519
So the individual people are on hand to support one another in the data entry kind of issues.
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:26.079
Or maybe we change the structure of the reporting, or we change the structure of the communication, or we change the structure of the way that decisions get made.
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:36.320
Like we let them make decisions more at a local level first, and then they provide us with monthly updates that are more detail-oriented than they had previously because of that.
00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:41.360
Again, this really depends on what's at stake and what's involved in the situation that you're dealing with.
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:44.960
But it's very helpful to be aware of these five options.
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:47.199
When does it make sense to compete?
00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:49.360
When does it make sense to accommodate?
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:51.360
When does it make sense to avoid?
00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:53.280
When should we compromise?
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:56.159
And when is it worthwhile to collaborate?
00:35:56.400 --> 00:36:03.920
And that last option, it's sort of like where we sit down or we go back and forth and we see if we can come up with a win-win.
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:07.119
Like there might actually be a solution that works for both of them.
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:12.800
Maybe Ron would be willing to use this other set of software that's a middle ground.
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:23.679
It's a little bit similar to the ones that he's used previously, so it's more familiar, but it's got more potential or these different features, so the young person can make use of it in a different kind of way.
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:35.360
Or maybe Ron agrees that in this current project that they're working on, that the apprentice will just follow the instructions that they've been given, that the machine operators will just follow the instructions they've been given.
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:54.480
But after the next financial year or when this next order comes through, that's when the young machiner operators would have the opportunity to do something and be put in charge, have more authentiautonomy and flexibility, I suppose, but potentially also be responsible for the output that's delivered.
00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:57.599
So there might be some win-win that's possible there.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:36:58.639
Not always.
00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:02.960
Like there isn't necessarily going to be a win-win in every conflict that we're dealing with.
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:06.719
Sometimes it makes sense just to be competing or split the difference.
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:10.079
If you don't have much time and there's not much at stake, then why not?
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:14.639
Collaborating, it sounds ideal, but it's not always possible.
00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:17.360
And there are also drawbacks to that approach.
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:22.800
It takes time and effort in the back and forth, seeing if you can come up with an option that works for everyone.
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:25.840
So you have to have meetings, you have to write emails, etc.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:33.840
And in the meantime, while all of this back and forth is going on, there's also the potential for the conflict to get worse behind the scenes.
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:44.480
There might be another thing that you're negotiating about with this staff member, and until they hear back from you about the first issue that's really important to them, they're not going to budge on this other thing.
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:52.480
Or because they haven't heard back from you, they end up looking on a job search site, see another job that's advertised, and then you lose a good staff member.
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:59.840
Whereas at least if you'd compromised, you would have gotten to a quick outcome and at least there would be more of an immediate resolution.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:06.960
So which one of these different conflict styles makes b make sense really depends on the situation and what's at stake.
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:13.199
If I was in Ron's position here, I think personally I would be inclined to be quite collaborative.
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:18.320
I would want to set down some meetings or organize some times to talk it through.
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:26.719
But I know a lot of other people, they would be much more firm than I would be, or others would be much more soft and accommodating and just go with the flow.
00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:53.519
This isn't really about right and wrong, but when we use frameworks like the ones that I've talked about today, it can be incredibly helpful both for coming up with options and developing a strategic plan, but also helping us to differentiate from the conflict so that we're not sitting there percolating away, stewing in it, and it all feels much more personal and we get more highly charged with emotions and all that stuff over time as well, don't we?
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:56.239
But I don't know, how does that all sit with you?
00:38:56.400 --> 00:39:00.480
Would you take a different approach than I would in any of those different case studies?
00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:03.679
Would you have sided with Ron over the machine operators?
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:10.559
Or maybe you think Ron is stuck in the mud, kind of fogey that needs to update his models or something.
00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:32.320
Maybe it was the leading hand in the apprentice clash that I talked about in some of those challenges giving feedback, or it might have been with poor Helen dealing with the um Slack updates issues and those kind of ones, where I suggested that potentially we could turn the conversation towards structure, interests, or data rather than just values in that example.
00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:34.239
But I don't know, I'd love to hear from you.
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:36.559
If you'd like to get in touch, you can shoot me an email.
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:38.960
It's podcast at simongood.com.
00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:43.360
If you would like more resources for dealing with conflict, please consider hitting subscribe.
00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:46.480
Or if you're on Apple Podcasts, I think that it's follow.
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:50.559
I'd love to hear from you if you want to put a comment down below or something like that as well.
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:54.960
Those little things are incredibly helpful for the algorithm for little podcasts like this.
00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:58.719
And otherwise, thank you very much for listening or watching if you're watching the video.
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:03.920
And I'll hopefully see you again in a future episode of the Conflict Skills Podcast.
