A Serious Case for Humor | Jennifer Aaker & Naomi Bagdonas

WEBVTT
1
00:00:03.490 --> 00:00:11.660
This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, everybody.
2
00:00:11.820 --> 00:00:14.460
Apologies if you've heard my rap on this subject before,
3
00:00:14.500 --> 00:00:15.980
but as you all know, a huge part of my
4
00:00:16.019 --> 00:00:21.059
job is interviewing highly attained meditation teachers and masters, and
5
00:00:21.140 --> 00:00:24.480
a common denominator among all of the guests I have
6
00:00:24.539 --> 00:00:28.719
found is a sense of humor. They take the teaching seriously,
7
00:00:28.780 --> 00:00:32.170
but they don't take themselves seriously. So there's clearly some
8
00:00:32.219 --> 00:00:36.799
sort of link between human flourishing and humor. That is
9
00:00:36.840 --> 00:00:38.399
not to say that you have to be hilarious in
10
00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:41.240
order to be happy, but again, it clearly helps a
11
00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:45.119
great deal not to take yourself so seriously. As it
12
00:00:45.140 --> 00:00:48.079
turns out, like pretty much everything we talk about on
13
00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:51.899
this show, humor is a skill. So that's the good news.
14
00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:55.380
And my guests today are here to elaborate on this,
15
00:00:55.979 --> 00:00:58.619
teach us the skill. They co-teach a course, in fact,
16
00:00:58.780 --> 00:01:03.090
at the Stanford Graduate School of Business called Humor Serious Business.
17
00:01:03.490 --> 00:01:07.459
They also recently co-authored a book called Humor Seriously, Why
18
00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:11.099
Humor is a Superpower at Work and in Life. Dr.
19
00:01:11.180 --> 00:01:15.200
Jennifer Ocker is the General Atlantic Professor at the Stanford
20
00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:17.920
Graduate School of Business and a leading expert on how
21
00:01:18.019 --> 00:01:22.980
purpose and meaning shape individual choices and how technology can
22
00:01:23.060 --> 00:01:28.159
positively impact both human well-being and company growth. Her work
23
00:01:28.180 --> 00:01:30.939
has been published in leading scientific journals and featured in
24
00:01:30.980 --> 00:01:33.079
The Economist, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal,
25
00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:38.049
The Atlantic, and Science. Her co-author and co-teacher and friend,
26
00:01:38.170 --> 00:01:42.189
Naomi Bagdonis, is a lecturer at the Stanford Graduate School
27
00:01:42.209 --> 00:01:46.189
of Business and an executive coach. She formerly trained at
28
00:01:46.209 --> 00:01:50.310
the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater, performs at comedy venues, and
29
00:01:50.420 --> 00:01:55.579
teaches improv in San Francisco's County Jail. In this conversation,
30
00:01:55.620 --> 00:01:58.250
we talk about why they say we've fallen off a
31
00:01:58.390 --> 00:02:01.609
humor cliff, the four main humor styles and how to
32
00:02:01.650 --> 00:02:05.329
figure out which one is yours, when self-deprecation works and
33
00:02:05.370 --> 00:02:09.169
when it doesn't, how to conduct a humor audit, that's
34
00:02:09.210 --> 00:02:12.500
their term, humor audit, how to sign off your emails,
35
00:02:12.659 --> 00:02:15.979
the relationship between humor and status, the connection between humor
36
00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:20.379
and love, a taxonomy of workplace humor, and the different
37
00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:25.150
types of humor fails and what to do about them. Okay,
38
00:02:25.169 --> 00:02:27.990
we'll get started with Jennifer Ocker and Naomi Bagdonis right
39
00:02:28.009 --> 00:02:38.120
after this. Jennifer Ocker and Naomi Bagdonis, welcome to the show.
40
00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:39.800
Thank you so much.
41
00:02:39.979 --> 00:02:41.229
We're so happy to be here.
42
00:02:41.830 --> 00:02:43.689
I'm happier here. Jennifer, let me just start with you.
43
00:02:43.849 --> 00:02:46.789
You say that we've fallen off a humor cliff. What
44
00:02:46.810 --> 00:02:47.370
do you mean by that?
45
00:02:48.360 --> 00:02:52.620
Yes. So we have data from over 1.5 million people
46
00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:56.780
collected globally by Gallup that asked a very simple question.
47
00:02:56.819 --> 00:03:00.550
And that is, did you smile or laugh a lot yesterday?
48
00:03:00.569 --> 00:03:03.830
And the answer is yes, when we're 16 and 18
49
00:03:03.830 --> 00:03:08.169
and 20. And then all of a sudden, right around 23-ish,
50
00:03:08.710 --> 00:03:12.810
the answer drops and becomes no for pretty much everyone.
51
00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:16.599
And here's the problem. So right around the time we
52
00:03:16.620 --> 00:03:19.219
get into the workforce, the answer becomes, no, I don't
53
00:03:19.259 --> 00:03:22.270
remember smiling or laughing a lot yesterday. And it doesn't
54
00:03:22.370 --> 00:03:27.849
come back up until about 80. And that is the
55
00:03:27.889 --> 00:03:34.479
humor cliff. The biggest challenge is average life expectancy is 78.
56
00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:36.419
So that's a math problem.
57
00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:38.580
That is a humor cliff. It's just this idea that
58
00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:41.060
we stop smiling and laughing. As kids, we do it
59
00:03:41.300 --> 00:03:44.000
all of the time. And then there's something about around
60
00:03:44.030 --> 00:03:46.469
the time we enter the workforce where we stop.
61
00:03:47.110 --> 00:03:49.750
So what's going on there? Naomi, why don't you take
62
00:03:49.789 --> 00:03:50.000
that one?
63
00:03:50.979 --> 00:03:53.780
Yeah, so around age 23, we go to work and
64
00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:56.479
we have all these perceptions about how we need to
65
00:03:56.539 --> 00:03:59.240
be at work, that we have to be serious and
66
00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:02.759
put together. And in order to be successful, we have
67
00:04:02.780 --> 00:04:04.819
to sort of present this version of ourselves. And that
68
00:04:04.870 --> 00:04:08.949
version has absolutely no semblance of humor. Now, there are
69
00:04:08.969 --> 00:04:12.610
a couple of hangups and misconceptions that people bring to
70
00:04:12.629 --> 00:04:15.949
the table about humor and about its value in the world,
71
00:04:16.170 --> 00:04:19.180
especially at work. And the first is that this is
72
00:04:19.209 --> 00:04:23.040
about being funny. It's about inventing something clever from thin air,
73
00:04:23.100 --> 00:04:26.339
and that is not true at all. More so, it's
74
00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:29.800
just about being truthful. When we look for truth in
75
00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:32.769
our lives, we uncover more humor as well. And then
76
00:04:32.810 --> 00:04:35.180
the second thing is, When people start to think about
77
00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:38.100
having more humor, they're so focused on having the right
78
00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:41.170
thing to say. And it's actually about being in the
79
00:04:41.189 --> 00:04:43.310
right mindset. And so this is what we work with
80
00:04:43.370 --> 00:04:47.410
our students on at Stanford. As they're integrating humor back
81
00:04:47.449 --> 00:04:50.470
into their lives, and especially in their professional lives, we're
82
00:04:50.529 --> 00:04:53.790
training them to navigate their lives on the precipice of
83
00:04:53.850 --> 00:04:57.600
a smile. Not tell jokes, but just go about your
84
00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:00.519
life looking for reasons to be delighted rather than disappointed.
85
00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:04.379
It's so funny you say this thing about not telling
86
00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:07.939
people they need to be funny. Behind the scenes at
87
00:05:07.939 --> 00:05:12.839
10% Happier, as we launch more podcasts with different hosts
88
00:05:12.939 --> 00:05:17.420
and we bring different talent onto the app, we talk
89
00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:22.500
a lot about humor because we value that as a
90
00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:26.560
brand differentiator. By the same token, There's nothing more painful
91
00:05:26.579 --> 00:05:29.000
than people trying too hard to be funny. And so
92
00:05:29.019 --> 00:05:32.160
what we've really landed on is take what we're talking
93
00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:35.720
about seriously, you know, training the mind, happiness, human flourishing seriously.
94
00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:40.730
Don't take yourself seriously. And in the process of not
95
00:05:40.769 --> 00:05:43.790
taking yourself seriously, in being open and real about who
96
00:05:43.810 --> 00:05:47.029
you are and what you're going through, it can be humorous,
97
00:05:47.709 --> 00:05:51.639
but it's definitely engaging. Does that make sense to you?
98
00:05:53.089 --> 00:05:58.629
Not at all. Absolutely. That's exactly what we teach our students.
99
00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:01.300
You know, this idea that you can do very serious
100
00:06:01.339 --> 00:06:05.360
things without taking yourself too seriously. You know what? Your
101
00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:09.740
entire team should basically get a Stanford MBA, you know,
102
00:06:09.860 --> 00:06:11.160
from your leadership principles.
103
00:06:11.459 --> 00:06:15.100
You're totally right that it's easy to believe if we
104
00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:18.319
take our lives and our mission seriously that the presence
105
00:06:18.339 --> 00:06:21.199
of humor betrays that mission, that gravity and levity are odds.
106
00:06:21.860 --> 00:06:24.279
And our research here tells a different story. And so
107
00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:26.620
this is about bringing more humor to work. But the
108
00:06:26.670 --> 00:06:29.509
second misconception is exactly that, that bringing humor to work
109
00:06:29.589 --> 00:06:32.850
means telling jokes. And that is not it at all.
110
00:06:32.930 --> 00:06:35.889
It's exactly what you're saying. It's just not taking ourselves
111
00:06:35.930 --> 00:06:40.029
so seriously. Also, we talk about, this is about humanity
112
00:06:40.170 --> 00:06:43.529
over humor. So be a human first, be your authentic self.
113
00:06:43.949 --> 00:06:46.430
That's gonna unlock your sense of humor and unlock other
114
00:06:46.449 --> 00:06:47.100
people as well.
115
00:06:47.889 --> 00:06:51.939
Is part of the issue that The culture has become
116
00:06:52.459 --> 00:06:56.879
pretty tricky to navigate these days. There's a lot of sensitivity.
117
00:06:56.920 --> 00:06:59.000
I think some of it is really good. You know,
118
00:06:59.189 --> 00:07:02.170
I'm less likely sometimes to tell jokes, especially in a
119
00:07:02.189 --> 00:07:05.670
work context, because I don't want to do something stupid
120
00:07:05.689 --> 00:07:06.310
or offensive.
121
00:07:07.069 --> 00:07:10.269
Yeah, absolutely. So a couple of things there. One, yeah,
122
00:07:10.329 --> 00:07:13.709
you can argue that the world has gotten quite humorless,
123
00:07:14.290 --> 00:07:17.310
but it's actually in these moments where there is a
124
00:07:17.379 --> 00:07:20.500
lot of tension and Mental well-being has been on the decline.
125
00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:23.160
I think one recent survey said that out of a
126
00:07:23.259 --> 00:07:27.379
large set of people who were asked since the global pandemic,
127
00:07:27.379 --> 00:07:29.139
85% of people are saying that mental well-being is on
128
00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:32.000
the decline and there's tension and there's stress out in
129
00:07:32.019 --> 00:07:34.870
the world. And that's not to mention other sort of
130
00:07:34.910 --> 00:07:38.449
challenges we're all facing. But what we find both in
131
00:07:38.490 --> 00:07:42.110
the research on health as well as the research that
132
00:07:42.129 --> 00:07:45.189
we've done in business and social settings, it's that that
133
00:07:45.250 --> 00:07:48.800
is the exact time that we actually need it. And
134
00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:53.199
so from a physiological angle, you think about what happens
135
00:07:53.259 --> 00:07:56.009
when we laugh together. So what happens is our brains
136
00:07:56.050 --> 00:08:00.569
release this cocktail of hormones. We release endorphins, giving us
137
00:08:00.629 --> 00:08:04.279
a feeling similar to a runner's high. we lower our cortisol,
138
00:08:04.459 --> 00:08:07.240
which makes us feel calmer. By the way, this is
139
00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:09.879
a good moment to say, Dan, we love your podcast.
140
00:08:09.939 --> 00:08:12.519
We love your book. We love the entire premise that
141
00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:15.120
you have gone through the entire journey you've taken people on.
142
00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:18.089
And in fact, I remember when I read your book,
143
00:08:18.189 --> 00:08:22.569
I actually felt calmer while laughing. So I think you
144
00:08:22.610 --> 00:08:25.550
do this so extremely well. The other thing is that
145
00:08:25.610 --> 00:08:28.970
we release dopamine, which is the same hormone released during
146
00:08:29.370 --> 00:08:32.279
certain types of physical touch. And so As far as
147
00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:36.240
our brains are concerned, laughing is like exercising, meditating, and
148
00:08:36.299 --> 00:08:39.019
having sex all at the same time. But, you know,
149
00:08:39.210 --> 00:08:42.950
logistically easier. So what's happening here is that it has
150
00:08:43.009 --> 00:08:48.690
this really impressive and significant effect on our physiology.
151
00:08:48.710 --> 00:08:54.929
I have so many questions. Just to say, I really
152
00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:57.960
appreciate the kind words, but I want to own that
153
00:08:58.299 --> 00:09:04.000
I've gotten some pretty... pointed and I think helpful, although painful,
154
00:09:04.379 --> 00:09:08.940
feedback that my sense of humor in interpersonal relationships can
155
00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:12.659
be a double-edged sword. Sometimes it's connective and sometimes it's
156
00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:15.899
a little too serrated and people don't know how to
157
00:09:15.940 --> 00:09:18.840
deal with it, especially if there's a power differential or
158
00:09:18.860 --> 00:09:20.820
it can feel like I'm keeping people at a distance
159
00:09:20.860 --> 00:09:24.080
through humor. At least in my own experience, humor is
160
00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:27.700
really important, but it's not always easy to deploy.
161
00:09:29.100 --> 00:09:33.000
Yeah. And you're bringing up a great point about humor styles.
162
00:09:33.580 --> 00:09:36.700
So I think, Dan, you've said previously that the love
163
00:09:36.740 --> 00:09:39.519
language in your family is mockery, right?
164
00:09:39.940 --> 00:09:40.159
Yes.
165
00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:44.580
That's sort of, you know, roasts, teasing. That's how love
166
00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:47.210
is shown. And we've actually done quite a bit of
167
00:09:47.230 --> 00:09:50.669
research around different styles of humor. And we found that
168
00:09:50.710 --> 00:09:54.710
there are four broad styles of humor. So the magnet,
169
00:09:54.769 --> 00:10:02.450
the sweetheart, the stand-up, and the sniper. And the magnet, there... charismatic, outgoing, uplifting,
170
00:10:02.710 --> 00:10:05.750
sort of tend to be more goofy, this goofy style
171
00:10:05.769 --> 00:10:12.149
of humor. Then we have the sniper. So snipers are edgy, dry, sarcastic, nuanced.
172
00:10:12.289 --> 00:10:15.210
They're sort of masters of the unexpected dig and teasing.
173
00:10:15.629 --> 00:10:19.090
Then the standup. Standups are bold, irreverent, not afraid to
174
00:10:19.149 --> 00:10:22.100
ruffle a few feathers for a laugh. Again, this sort
175
00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:27.710
of teasing style of humor. And then sweethearts. So always
176
00:10:27.769 --> 00:10:30.100
lean on humor that is going to bring people together.
177
00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:33.740
They really lean on self-deprecation. And so what we find
178
00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:37.500
and why these styles are so powerful is those snipers
179
00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:43.250
and stand-up styles, they are like quintessential your family, right?
180
00:10:43.450 --> 00:10:45.070
Their love language is mockery.
181
00:10:45.870 --> 00:10:51.789
And it's important to recognize that not everyone takes mockery.
182
00:10:51.570 --> 00:10:52.629
As a sign of intimacy.
183
00:10:52.649 --> 00:10:55.500
So you know, we talk a lot with our students
184
00:10:55.539 --> 00:10:58.230
about recognizing not just what your style is and what
185
00:10:58.250 --> 00:11:01.309
your strengths are and potentially your pitfalls, but also trying
186
00:11:01.330 --> 00:11:04.269
to read the room and understand what's the relationship, what's
187
00:11:04.309 --> 00:11:08.139
the context, are you the boss? And if so, leaning
188
00:11:08.220 --> 00:11:11.559
towards magnet and sweetheart style humor might actually be more
189
00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:14.419
powerful and more connecting for you as an individual.
190
00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:17.240
But it does bring me back to something that was
191
00:11:17.259 --> 00:11:21.159
said earlier, which is that, you know, we need perhaps
192
00:11:21.340 --> 00:11:25.600
humor more than ever, given the gravity of the various
193
00:11:26.539 --> 00:11:31.379
social and global dynamics. And it's hard to do because
194
00:11:31.450 --> 00:11:34.690
people are so sensitive and it's you can get fired
195
00:11:34.789 --> 00:11:38.409
for being insensitive. And so you're asking me to like.
196
00:11:38.929 --> 00:11:40.649
do a bunch of things at one time. One is
197
00:11:40.690 --> 00:11:45.409
to have the humor mindset. Two is to, like, get
198
00:11:45.470 --> 00:11:47.669
a joke that comes to mind. Three is to read
199
00:11:47.710 --> 00:11:51.470
the room correctly. And four is to... Juggle knives.
200
00:11:51.690 --> 00:11:52.570
Is to juggle knives.
201
00:11:52.929 --> 00:11:55.509
Yeah, yeah. And kittens at the same time.
202
00:11:56.590 --> 00:11:58.470
You've got it. I think our job here is done.
203
00:11:58.490 --> 00:12:00.269
Yeah, we can wrap up here.
204
00:12:00.289 --> 00:12:04.889
I mean, part of this is, you know, this misperception
205
00:12:05.029 --> 00:12:08.039
of what what you're trying to do. So people often
206
00:12:08.100 --> 00:12:12.259
equate being funny with humor, but it's not. It's, as
207
00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:14.679
you said earlier, it's the worst thing you can do
208
00:12:14.860 --> 00:12:16.710
when you're trying to create a culture of levity in
209
00:12:16.750 --> 00:12:19.690
your team or your family or when talking to strangers
210
00:12:19.909 --> 00:12:23.330
is try to be funny. And there's so many boomerang
211
00:12:23.370 --> 00:12:26.509
effects that can happen there. But what we talk about
212
00:12:26.549 --> 00:12:29.289
in our class at Stanford and in our research is
213
00:12:29.929 --> 00:12:32.799
It's not about trying to be funny. It's really about
214
00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:36.639
noticing truths in the world. And so one of our
215
00:12:36.679 --> 00:12:39.210
first tips is just you start with truth. You know,
216
00:12:39.269 --> 00:12:42.230
don't try to be funny. Just notice what's true. So
217
00:12:42.269 --> 00:12:46.350
for example, something like, Recently, I've come to realize that
218
00:12:46.450 --> 00:12:51.309
I like my dog more than most humans, maybe all humans. But,
219
00:12:51.350 --> 00:12:53.980
you know, that's the truth. In some contexts, that could
220
00:12:54.029 --> 00:12:56.080
actually be humorous. And then what you do is you
221
00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:59.899
take certain tools that comedians oftentimes use, and then you
222
00:12:59.940 --> 00:13:04.379
can dial up the humor through exaggeration or observation or
223
00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:06.309
ending on rule of three, et cetera. And we can
224
00:13:06.350 --> 00:13:09.190
talk a little bit about these tips, but we have
225
00:13:09.250 --> 00:13:11.850
a whole chapter in our book, chapter three, that dives
226
00:13:11.929 --> 00:13:15.529
into them. The big thing, though, is don't try to
227
00:13:15.570 --> 00:13:18.090
be funny. That often can backlash.
228
00:13:19.350 --> 00:13:21.649
I would love you to dive into chapter three and
229
00:13:21.980 --> 00:13:22.620
give us some tips.
230
00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:24.860
One thing that you asked about earlier that I just
231
00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:26.159
want to sort of close the loop on, and then
232
00:13:26.179 --> 00:13:28.740
we can definitely go to tips, that we're asking you
233
00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:30.039
to juggle so many things.
234
00:13:30.740 --> 00:13:32.299
And it can feel that way.
235
00:13:32.379 --> 00:13:35.080
So I just want to super simplify this idea of
236
00:13:35.259 --> 00:13:38.090
how do we make humor really safe? And the first
237
00:13:38.190 --> 00:13:41.529
principle in our class is if you're thinking about using
238
00:13:41.590 --> 00:13:45.539
humor in Don't ask, will this make me sound funny? Ask,
239
00:13:45.659 --> 00:13:48.960
how will this make other people feel? Because the goal
240
00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:50.940
is not to get a laugh. The goal is to
241
00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:53.730
make the room feel lighter and to make people feel
242
00:13:53.769 --> 00:13:56.409
more at ease. And so when we have that goal
243
00:13:56.470 --> 00:13:59.289
in mind, it becomes a lot easier to discern the
244
00:13:59.950 --> 00:14:03.029
what is going to feel connecting and what might feel distancing.
245
00:14:03.549 --> 00:14:07.049
And there's sort of this broader goal in this work,
246
00:14:07.580 --> 00:14:10.659
which is the phrase, people want to be valued members
247
00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:13.620
of a winning team on an inspired mission. And so
248
00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:15.740
if we keep that in mind, how do I make
249
00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:18.600
sure that the people on this team feel valued? How
250
00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:22.879
do we maintain a winning attitude? How do we stay
251
00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:27.240
connected to our inspired mission? staying light and staying loose,
252
00:14:27.419 --> 00:14:29.980
having a sense of humor, not taking ourselves too seriously.
253
00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:32.539
It's not about being funny, right? But sort of staying
254
00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:35.700
light and loose, that helps to further all of these things.
255
00:14:35.740 --> 00:14:38.759
So again, I just want to super simplify. It feels
256
00:14:38.779 --> 00:14:41.570
like we're juggling a lot, but it really is, don't ask,
257
00:14:41.590 --> 00:14:43.490
will this make me sound funny? Ask, how is this
258
00:14:43.509 --> 00:14:44.669
going to make other people feel?
259
00:14:44.690 --> 00:14:47.330
I like that. It reminds me a little bit of
260
00:14:47.350 --> 00:14:50.549
something that my meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein, once said to
261
00:14:50.590 --> 00:14:53.929
me about how to speak skillfully in the context of
262
00:14:55.419 --> 00:14:59.190
controversial social justice issues. I hope I'm not mangling what
263
00:14:59.210 --> 00:15:00.789
he said, but it was something about like, is what
264
00:15:00.809 --> 00:15:03.289
you're about to say likely to bring people together or
265
00:15:03.340 --> 00:15:04.139
drive them apart?
266
00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:04.659
Yes.
267
00:15:04.940 --> 00:15:08.059
And it sounds like that's reasonably close to your humor guideline.
268
00:15:08.899 --> 00:15:11.580
Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
269
00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:14.480
I think people get so focused on themselves when it
270
00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:17.059
comes to humor. Like you get nervous and you think, okay,
271
00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:18.399
I want to be funny. I want to say the
272
00:15:18.450 --> 00:15:22.250
right thing in the right way. And actually Kelly Leonard
273
00:15:22.769 --> 00:15:25.710
and Ann Libra, who run The Second City, their first
274
00:15:25.750 --> 00:15:27.629
principle is get off of yourself.
275
00:15:28.090 --> 00:15:28.870
Get out of your head.
276
00:15:28.929 --> 00:15:31.519
It's not about you. It's about the other people. And
277
00:15:31.539 --> 00:15:33.879
there's another principle in comedy that humor exists in the
278
00:15:33.940 --> 00:15:37.500
space between the comedian and the audience. So this idea of,
279
00:15:38.059 --> 00:15:41.279
you know, quelling the ego, getting off of yourself and
280
00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:43.590
really thinking about how is this going to make other
281
00:15:43.629 --> 00:15:46.669
people feel? Is this connecting or is this distancing? and
282
00:15:46.789 --> 00:15:48.519
holding that before anything else.
283
00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:51.259
It's so true. And a lot of this also is
284
00:15:51.299 --> 00:15:54.179
just about being more generous with your laughter. We know
285
00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:57.919
from the research that laughing together shortens the path to connection.
286
00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:01.690
So for example, when people laugh before having a conversation,
287
00:16:02.289 --> 00:16:06.970
they're actually more likely to disclose personal information. They actually
288
00:16:07.009 --> 00:16:11.750
disclose 30% on average, more personal information about themselves. So
289
00:16:11.789 --> 00:16:15.600
they feel closer. So there's real benefit to doing that.
290
00:16:15.649 --> 00:16:18.299
And again, it's not about you being funny. You can
291
00:16:18.419 --> 00:16:21.299
even achieve some of these things by just being more
292
00:16:21.379 --> 00:16:22.820
generous with your laughter.
293
00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:25.960
It's interesting you said that thing about, you know, getting
294
00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:28.299
out of your own head, getting out of your own way,
295
00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:33.480
getting over yourself in the process of trying to inject
296
00:16:33.539 --> 00:16:36.700
levity into a situation. Because Yeah, I can see how
297
00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:40.659
that's true. And yet when, at least for me, on
298
00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:43.710
the occasions when I say something that people find funny,
299
00:16:44.809 --> 00:16:47.309
I do feel an egoic dopamine release.
300
00:16:48.259 --> 00:16:51.159
Totally. Well, you are releasing dopamine. It feels awesome.
301
00:16:51.220 --> 00:16:53.879
And it feels awesome for good reason, because not only
302
00:16:53.940 --> 00:16:57.200
is it making us feel better, right? It's releasing endorphins,
303
00:16:57.259 --> 00:16:59.659
making us feel more energized, able to bounce back more
304
00:16:59.700 --> 00:17:03.659
quickly from setbacks, dopamine, lowering our cortisol, but it's also
305
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:06.779
changing other people's perceptions of us. So we know from
306
00:17:06.819 --> 00:17:10.680
the research that individuals who use humor effectively at work
307
00:17:10.700 --> 00:17:14.130
are are viewed by others as significantly higher in status,
308
00:17:14.390 --> 00:17:17.930
more confident, and more competent. We also know that leaders
309
00:17:17.950 --> 00:17:20.769
with a good sense of humor are seen as 27%
310
00:17:20.769 --> 00:17:24.569
more motivating by their employees, and that those employees report
311
00:17:24.609 --> 00:17:28.319
being 15% more engaged at work. And so you are
312
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.579
feeling good for good reason. However, if you focus too
313
00:17:32.619 --> 00:17:34.759
much on that, if that's the goal, you know, to
314
00:17:34.819 --> 00:17:37.880
be funny, then it's the most surefire way to fail.
315
00:17:38.940 --> 00:17:42.240
So is the poster child for doing this incorrectly Michael
316
00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:42.819
from The Office?
317
00:17:45.420 --> 00:17:46.099
Yeah, probably.
318
00:17:46.779 --> 00:17:49.440
Yeah, you can see why, right? He's so focused on
319
00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:52.700
being funny himself and being seen a certain way rather
320
00:17:52.740 --> 00:17:55.420
than how it makes other people feel. Side note, favorite
321
00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:59.420
Office episode ever? Have you guys seen the one where...
322
00:17:59.869 --> 00:18:01.549
they all go to Michael's house and he has this
323
00:18:01.650 --> 00:18:04.190
TV that's like 12 inches by 12 inches on the wall.
324
00:18:04.609 --> 00:18:06.630
It's absolutely hilarious. We should all go watch it later.
325
00:18:06.869 --> 00:18:09.720
And so Lee Eisenberg, who is a guest in our class,
326
00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:11.519
who's a writer for The Office, he talked about how
327
00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:14.339
that was one of their favorite episodes to film, but
328
00:18:14.380 --> 00:18:17.559
it took them like three times the normal episode length
329
00:18:17.579 --> 00:18:19.900
because they could not stop laughing.
330
00:18:20.299 --> 00:18:21.549
Everyone's like in tears.
331
00:18:21.589 --> 00:18:23.789
And even if you watch the episode, there'll be cuts
332
00:18:24.130 --> 00:18:27.309
where you sort of see like tears dripping in some
333
00:18:27.329 --> 00:18:29.930
of the actors' eyes because they've just been having so,
334
00:18:29.990 --> 00:18:32.750
so much fun with it. Anyways, so that's our homework
335
00:18:32.789 --> 00:18:34.609
for today is to watch that episode after this.
336
00:18:35.789 --> 00:18:38.039
Shout out to Lee Eisenberg. Actually, he is an old
337
00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:40.359
friend of mine. So while we're propping him up, just
338
00:18:40.380 --> 00:18:41.920
to say he's got a new show coming out on
339
00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:45.420
Apple TV Plus called We Crashed about WeWork.
340
00:18:46.460 --> 00:18:46.619
Yep.
341
00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:47.359
Awesome.
342
00:18:47.500 --> 00:18:48.059
We love Lee.
343
00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:49.119
We love Lee.
344
00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:53.589
Great guy. Okay, enough promoting of Lee. Let's go back
345
00:18:53.630 --> 00:18:57.420
to the long story neglected chapter three that you guys
346
00:18:57.460 --> 00:18:58.750
were supposed to be walking me through.
347
00:18:59.450 --> 00:19:02.170
Actually, Lee had a big role in chapter three. He
348
00:19:02.190 --> 00:19:04.809
would come to our class and we would delve into
349
00:19:04.849 --> 00:19:09.730
these different sort of rules and insights that comedians often use. Naomi,
350
00:19:09.779 --> 00:19:10.880
why don't you take it away?
351
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.220
Yeah, so I think what's helpful to boil it down
352
00:19:14.380 --> 00:19:18.509
to two quick things. principles and those principles are truth
353
00:19:18.630 --> 00:19:21.569
and misdirection so first we've talked about at the heart
354
00:19:21.609 --> 00:19:24.450
of humor is truth don't look for what's funny instead
355
00:19:24.549 --> 00:19:28.160
just notice things that are true the comedian sarah cooper
356
00:19:28.180 --> 00:19:31.720
has this great airplane seating chart she made the observation
357
00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:34.380
that airplane seats tend to get smaller and smaller and
358
00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:38.099
more uncomfortable and so that's the truth right she made
359
00:19:38.140 --> 00:19:41.480
this airplane seating chart and the labels were things like,
360
00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:47.930
you know, economy, economy, economy, comfort, economy, economy, discomfort, economy, agony,
361
00:19:48.430 --> 00:19:51.920
economy to the reckoning where your God now economy, Satan's
362
00:19:51.980 --> 00:19:55.230
den economy, and then finally just poop. So this is
363
00:19:55.269 --> 00:19:58.430
like super simple truth observation. And by the way, she
364
00:19:58.509 --> 00:20:02.259
added a little bit of exaggeration to it. Second is misdirection.
365
00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:06.539
So laughter springs from the unexpected, right? When we look
366
00:20:07.019 --> 00:20:09.660
at a visual, it looks like a regular airplane seating chart,
367
00:20:09.769 --> 00:20:12.150
and then all of a sudden, economy to the reckoning.
368
00:20:12.869 --> 00:20:16.609
And so those are the two sort of highest order principles.
369
00:20:16.710 --> 00:20:18.450
So look at what's true in your life and then
370
00:20:18.509 --> 00:20:20.750
try and figure out a way to communicate it in
371
00:20:20.769 --> 00:20:23.410
a way that has a bit of misdirection built in.
372
00:20:24.769 --> 00:20:27.430
Coming up, Jennifer and Naomi explain how to conduct what
373
00:20:27.470 --> 00:20:30.279
they call a humor audit. They talk about how to
374
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:34.980
sign off on your emails and the pros and cons
375
00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:44.349
of self-deprecating humor. That's right after this. Any other tips
376
00:20:44.380 --> 00:20:46.660
from this now super famous chapter three?
377
00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:50.769
Well, first of all, chapter three is just, yeah, it's
378
00:20:50.809 --> 00:20:52.529
a piece of work. It should be its own book.
379
00:20:53.009 --> 00:20:55.589
But one of them is so simple, and it goes
380
00:20:55.630 --> 00:20:57.549
back to your point of how do you actually create
381
00:20:57.630 --> 00:21:02.369
humor but also be thoughtful about how you're sort of
382
00:21:02.589 --> 00:21:06.789
offsetting risks as well. And one of the easiest tools
383
00:21:06.829 --> 00:21:10.069
you can do is just simply moving the humorous or
384
00:21:10.410 --> 00:21:14.549
unusual thing to the very end of a sentence. So
385
00:21:14.609 --> 00:21:17.430
for example, Amy Schumer once said, what did she say?
386
00:21:17.470 --> 00:21:20.559
She started her standup, a particular show saying, you might've
387
00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:26.509
noticed that I've gotten very rich, very famous and very humble. Now,
388
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:29.250
how to use humble as the first or second trait
389
00:21:29.390 --> 00:21:32.549
would not be as funny. So simply moving things to
390
00:21:32.589 --> 00:21:35.710
the end of the sentence is a really easy way
391
00:21:35.789 --> 00:21:41.859
to actually increase levity and decrease the risk of offsetting anything.
392
00:21:41.980 --> 00:21:46.200
Another one simply is just around simple things like callbacks.
393
00:21:46.259 --> 00:21:48.980
So let's say, Dan, you're in a podcast. Let's say
394
00:21:49.019 --> 00:21:53.490
it's this one. Let's say there was an earlier moment
395
00:21:53.509 --> 00:21:56.309
where we all laughed together. And then simply at the
396
00:21:56.369 --> 00:21:59.700
end of the podcast, making reference to that single line
397
00:21:59.740 --> 00:22:04.299
that created that laughter. And first of all, again, no
398
00:22:04.339 --> 00:22:07.650
risk in mentioning that callback, which is simply referencing the
399
00:22:07.670 --> 00:22:10.670
laugh line that someone else might have mentioned before. And
400
00:22:10.710 --> 00:22:14.359
second of all, it makes that other person feel great because... A,
401
00:22:14.410 --> 00:22:17.720
you were listening, and B, it brought it back to them.
402
00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:22.240
So there's really simple tools that can be brought about
403
00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:25.119
to actually increase the humor and make people feel like
404
00:22:25.140 --> 00:22:27.009
they are on a team and are listened to.
405
00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:30.390
I'll add on a couple more. So we talked about exaggeration.
406
00:22:30.430 --> 00:22:31.089
That's a good one.
407
00:22:31.210 --> 00:22:34.349
And then another is contrast. So look for areas of
408
00:22:34.430 --> 00:22:37.910
contrast in your life or try and build contrast into
409
00:22:37.950 --> 00:22:41.750
your observations. So One of my favorite Larry David quotes is,
410
00:22:41.769 --> 00:22:45.049
I had a wonderful childhood, which is really tough because
411
00:22:45.109 --> 00:22:48.000
it's hard to adjust to a miserable adulthood, right? So
412
00:22:48.059 --> 00:22:51.299
just making that sort of area of contrast. Rule of
413
00:22:51.420 --> 00:22:53.819
three is another good one. So that's Jennifer talked about
414
00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:56.319
ending on the humorous thing. If you're not sure how
415
00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:58.259
to do that, just create a list of three things.
416
00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:00.720
Make the last one a little bit unexpected, like the
417
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:04.339
Amy Schumer humility quote. So maybe I could show how
418
00:23:04.380 --> 00:23:08.259
this works in action. So we had a CEO come
419
00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:10.579
to us and say, hey, listen, I've got to give
420
00:23:10.619 --> 00:23:13.720
this big talk to my organization and I want to
421
00:23:13.740 --> 00:23:16.519
be funny. So write me some lines, tell me how
422
00:23:16.539 --> 00:23:19.519
to be funny. And we said, great, that sounds awesome.
423
00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:22.160
Forget all that. Just tell me what's going on in
424
00:23:22.180 --> 00:23:24.710
your life. Tell me what's true. And so we had
425
00:23:24.730 --> 00:23:27.849
sort of an exploratory conversation with him. He feels like
426
00:23:27.910 --> 00:23:30.470
his employees feel kind of distanced from him, like he's
427
00:23:30.690 --> 00:23:33.690
on a pedestal and he wants to humanize himself. We
428
00:23:33.730 --> 00:23:37.970
found out that he worries that that status barrier is
429
00:23:38.109 --> 00:23:41.119
impacting the team and makes him seem unapproachable. And we
430
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:43.539
found out that his kids don't listen to him at all.
431
00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:47.180
So this is like great, awesome fodder. So he actually
432
00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:51.309
ended up opening the talk using rule of three and
433
00:23:51.549 --> 00:23:54.170
contrast and a little bit of exaggeration. So he opened
434
00:23:54.190 --> 00:23:57.430
the talk and he said something like, with working from home,
435
00:23:57.470 --> 00:24:00.920
my life has never been more full of contrasts. He said,
436
00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:03.009
you know, I joined these Zoom calls and I'm the CEO.
437
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:05.849
Everyone listens to me. I joined my board meetings and
438
00:24:05.890 --> 00:24:08.049
I'm an industry expert. And then I walk out of
439
00:24:08.089 --> 00:24:10.190
this office, like through that door that you see in
440
00:24:10.210 --> 00:24:13.930
my background, and I am an executive assistant to two
441
00:24:13.970 --> 00:24:16.970
teenage daughters. You know, I'm an Uber driver. I'm a
442
00:24:17.049 --> 00:24:21.390
semi-professional manicurist. I'm a professional peanut butter and jelly maker.
443
00:24:21.430 --> 00:24:23.039
And he sort of goes on to all of these
444
00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:27.039
things that are really humanizing and totally true about his
445
00:24:27.099 --> 00:24:30.559
life as a dad to two teenage daughters. So it
446
00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:33.880
was just this kind of really nice, really low stakes
447
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:37.140
way to share a little bit of levity, but more importantly,
448
00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:39.740
share a little bit more about himself and some humanity.
449
00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:44.079
Another thing I take from that story is that self-deprecation
450
00:24:44.299 --> 00:24:47.799
is one of the safer strategies. Although I'm curious, can
451
00:24:47.859 --> 00:24:49.720
self-deprecation go wrong?
452
00:24:50.180 --> 00:24:50.720
Absolutely.
453
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:55.369
So self-deprecation is this really tricky form of humor that
454
00:24:55.450 --> 00:25:00.369
is super dependent on status and context. So if you
455
00:25:00.630 --> 00:25:04.329
are the highest status person in the room, self-deprecation is
456
00:25:04.349 --> 00:25:08.549
going to be one of your greatest assets. Because we
457
00:25:08.589 --> 00:25:13.289
know that people code self-deprecation from high status individuals, from leaders,
458
00:25:14.069 --> 00:25:19.680
as confidence, as humanizing, as not taking yourself too seriously.
459
00:25:19.980 --> 00:25:22.339
So it's super powerful in that context. But we also
460
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:25.579
know that folks who are lower in status, if they
461
00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:29.890
over-index on self-deprecation, people can sort of code it as
462
00:25:30.049 --> 00:25:33.349
genuine insecurity. And so you really want to be aware
463
00:25:33.569 --> 00:25:36.819
of what's the context, what's your sort of position in
464
00:25:36.859 --> 00:25:39.160
the room, and are you over-indexing?
465
00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:44.440
That's incredibly helpful. It's really interesting. You also mentioned Zoom.
466
00:25:44.700 --> 00:25:49.160
The CEO was worried that he was distanced from his employees,
467
00:25:49.349 --> 00:25:53.130
especially given the remote culture these days. And I'm just curious,
468
00:25:53.210 --> 00:25:56.089
are there best practices for humor in an era of
469
00:25:56.529 --> 00:25:57.029
remote work?
470
00:25:58.170 --> 00:26:00.240
Yeah, I mean, I think the story you're mentioning is
471
00:26:00.460 --> 00:26:03.640
one we actually love. The person who teaches with us
472
00:26:03.740 --> 00:26:06.200
at Stanford, his name is Conor D. Minyaman. He's also
473
00:26:06.259 --> 00:26:09.940
the co-CEO of a large nonprofit. And he brings humor
474
00:26:10.140 --> 00:26:14.230
and levity to life so organically and so beautifully and
475
00:26:14.269 --> 00:26:18.549
with such significant effect that it's like a case study
476
00:26:18.589 --> 00:26:21.710
just walking around. So remember, he has high status because
477
00:26:21.730 --> 00:26:25.119
he's the co-CEO of this large nonprofit, but But right
478
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:28.299
when the world went into quarantine, he was leading his
479
00:26:28.380 --> 00:26:32.519
first virtual offsite with his entire organization. And people are
480
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:37.069
exhausted and they're scared. It's tense. So he's sharing a
481
00:26:37.130 --> 00:26:40.950
few slides before passing to a teammate to speak. But
482
00:26:40.990 --> 00:26:44.809
when he does, he intentionally leaves his screen share on.
483
00:26:45.690 --> 00:26:48.839
And the entire team, thinking it's a mistake, watches as
484
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:52.539
he closes his PowerPoint. He opens a Google search and
485
00:26:52.579 --> 00:26:58.349
types in, things inspirational CEOs say during hard times. And
486
00:26:58.369 --> 00:27:02.160
like everyone loses it. It's this beautiful moment. And what's
487
00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:05.900
powerful about this is we're all basically operating on Zoom
488
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:08.119
some of the time, if not a lot of the time.
489
00:27:08.730 --> 00:27:11.779
And people often think that humor is challenging to do
490
00:27:11.859 --> 00:27:14.539
in these moments of remote work. But in fact, that
491
00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:18.119
little anecdote just goes to show that this isn't about
492
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:21.799
being funny. Oftentimes, you can use self-deprecation and really achieve
493
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:25.049
significant effects. Because as Naomi said before, we know from
494
00:27:25.069 --> 00:27:27.549
the research that when leaders are seen as having a
495
00:27:28.190 --> 00:27:30.450
Sense of humor. Not even a great sense of humor,
496
00:27:30.509 --> 00:27:33.670
just a sense of humor. They're more motivating and their
497
00:27:33.690 --> 00:27:37.390
teams are more bonded. They're more creative. Mental well-being increases.
498
00:27:37.970 --> 00:27:40.950
And think about that. That was free. It didn't take
499
00:27:40.990 --> 00:27:45.339
a lot of thought and it was strategic, thoughtful, and intentional.
500
00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:49.160
So yeah, we find in these moments, even of remote work,
501
00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:52.839
that humor can be even potentially more important.
502
00:27:54.140 --> 00:27:55.319
What is a humor audit?
503
00:27:55.900 --> 00:27:59.049
Well, it's the most fun audit. you will ever take.
504
00:27:59.490 --> 00:28:00.490
It is, yeah.
505
00:28:00.690 --> 00:28:03.279
It is absolutely the most fun audit. So a humor
506
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:06.960
audit is going through your life and making some observations
507
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:10.400
about how humor shows up in your day. So things
508
00:28:10.460 --> 00:28:13.599
like noticing all the moments throughout the day that you
509
00:28:13.619 --> 00:28:17.720
laughed or smiled, noticing moments when you made other people
510
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:22.220
laugh and smile, and really importantly, noticing who brings out
511
00:28:22.329 --> 00:28:24.390
your sense of humor. So what's the context?
512
00:28:24.450 --> 00:28:25.089
Who are you with?
513
00:28:25.819 --> 00:28:29.700
And we find that we're not super tapped into humor
514
00:28:29.779 --> 00:28:32.730
in the world. And it's a really important barometer for
515
00:28:33.289 --> 00:28:36.309
our mental well-being, for the people in our lives who
516
00:28:36.470 --> 00:28:41.009
are energizers versus energy drainers, and for the activities that
517
00:28:41.049 --> 00:28:43.650
we're doing where we're feeling in flow and we're feeling
518
00:28:44.170 --> 00:28:46.099
like there's a sense of joy with what we're doing
519
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:46.420
as well.
520
00:28:47.210 --> 00:28:48.269
So that's the humor audit.
521
00:28:48.769 --> 00:28:51.410
And then a subsection of that is actually we have
522
00:28:51.450 --> 00:28:55.009
our students do an email audit. So in this email audit,
523
00:28:55.170 --> 00:28:58.970
they have to go through their sent email folder and
524
00:28:59.190 --> 00:29:02.299
pick out the last five or 10 emails that they've
525
00:29:02.339 --> 00:29:05.660
sent and forward them to a classmate. Obviously, emails that
526
00:29:05.700 --> 00:29:08.720
are okay to share. And their classmate has to open
527
00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:11.380
up these emails and basically give them a score of
528
00:29:11.619 --> 00:29:16.599
how robotic versus human they are in these emails. And
529
00:29:16.660 --> 00:29:19.799
what we find is the more that we interact with
530
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:22.839
each other electronically, the easier it is to lose our
531
00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.359
humanity and our sense of humor along the way. And
532
00:29:26.500 --> 00:29:30.910
so we try and train our students to weave back
533
00:29:31.089 --> 00:29:33.549
in some semblance of humanity and a little bit of
534
00:29:33.589 --> 00:29:36.630
levity in their emails. And we have some really specific
535
00:29:36.970 --> 00:29:38.230
tips for how to do that if we want to
536
00:29:38.269 --> 00:29:40.450
go into that. But that's the humor on and the
537
00:29:40.509 --> 00:29:43.230
sub-portion of the email audit that we do in our class.
538
00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:45.740
Yeah, and then we do the tax audit because, you know,
539
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:47.900
you've got to end on a winning note. Hey, Dan,
540
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:54.240
how do you sign off your emails? I don't. Okay. Well,
541
00:29:54.259 --> 00:29:56.279
you will not pass this class, so.
542
00:29:56.619 --> 00:30:00.529
No, I'm worried about this because... Email, Slack, text, it's
543
00:30:00.970 --> 00:30:03.190
one of the least happy parts of my life. There's
544
00:30:03.210 --> 00:30:05.849
just so much coming at me. And I feel I
545
00:30:05.910 --> 00:30:09.450
do feel obligated to respond to all of it. And
546
00:30:10.049 --> 00:30:14.190
often I think I am humorless or lack humanity. And
547
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:17.200
when I hear you say that we should have levity
548
00:30:17.259 --> 00:30:20.259
and humanity in our digital communications, I think, yes, that's true.
549
00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:23.539
And that sounds like a ton of work. I don't
550
00:30:23.619 --> 00:30:24.759
know that I have the bandwidth for.
551
00:30:25.609 --> 00:30:28.950
That is exactly how our students feel too. And what
552
00:30:28.970 --> 00:30:32.369
we do is just disprove that belief. You know, people
553
00:30:32.430 --> 00:30:34.450
often think this is a heavy lift. This will take
554
00:30:34.549 --> 00:30:38.750
too much time. But in fact, it not only doesn't,
555
00:30:39.430 --> 00:30:42.710
but the benefits of how you start interacting with others
556
00:30:43.210 --> 00:30:46.980
fundamentally shift and benefits are significant. So for example, about
557
00:30:46.980 --> 00:30:50.140
90% of our students say that they most frequently sign
558
00:30:50.180 --> 00:30:55.119
off with best or best regards. But What does that
559
00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:57.539
even mean? You know, are you the best? Am I
560
00:30:57.559 --> 00:30:59.700
the best? Like, why do I need to tell you that?
561
00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:06.809
Best is the worst. Maybe second after just silencing people
562
00:31:06.849 --> 00:31:09.509
and not signing off. But anyway, it's really up there
563
00:31:09.549 --> 00:31:11.710
with being bad. But when you've been up all night,
564
00:31:11.930 --> 00:31:15.470
you can just sign off, you're heavily caffeinated. Or, you know,
565
00:31:15.710 --> 00:31:19.470
if it's about something, you know, digital communication, like sign off, Dan,
566
00:31:19.490 --> 00:31:21.940
with let's never speak of this again. Never email again.
567
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:26.250
Or on rare occasion... I'm the best because sometimes you
568
00:31:26.289 --> 00:31:28.160
just got to let people know. But the idea here
569
00:31:28.339 --> 00:31:32.299
is that you don't need to like assume that this
570
00:31:32.420 --> 00:31:35.700
is actually high stakes. We even encourage the students just
571
00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:39.930
to put a PS, making reference to what the other
572
00:31:40.009 --> 00:31:42.990
person had said that might have just even created a smile.
573
00:31:43.470 --> 00:31:47.480
The bar in business is so low. it could not
574
00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:50.779
be lower. And so even these small changes that take
575
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:55.539
very little time have extraordinary impact on how they start
576
00:31:55.640 --> 00:31:58.990
relating to others. And if trust in our culture and
577
00:31:59.029 --> 00:32:01.390
our teams and our organizations is at an all-time low,
578
00:32:01.410 --> 00:32:04.589
which it is, and we know that if you can
579
00:32:04.650 --> 00:32:08.450
make someone smile or laugh, it increases connection, it shortens
580
00:32:08.490 --> 00:32:13.140
the distance between two people, why wouldn't you consider this
581
00:32:13.259 --> 00:32:16.430
as a tool in your toolkit. We assume you have
582
00:32:16.450 --> 00:32:19.069
a toolkit. Like you seem like a handy person.
583
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:21.400
Yeah, and I'll just add, I know a lot of
584
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:24.299
this is about creating shortcuts for people because you're right,
585
00:32:24.940 --> 00:32:28.559
writing a funny email sounds super high stakes, but having
586
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:31.799
just one word or line at the end of your
587
00:32:31.900 --> 00:32:36.210
email that shows any semblance of humanity is actually super easy.
588
00:32:36.269 --> 00:32:38.609
So I just went into my sent mail and I'll
589
00:32:38.630 --> 00:32:41.829
share my last two email sign-offs. So one was an
590
00:32:41.990 --> 00:32:45.549
author had reached out about drumming up buzz for their book.
591
00:32:46.009 --> 00:32:49.440
And I wrote a super quick one line email back.
592
00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:53.140
And then I signed off with buzzing Naomi, right? So
593
00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:56.759
just a little bit of levity. Another one had, this
594
00:32:56.819 --> 00:32:58.460
is a guy who gives a lot of talks and
595
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:00.509
does research around the power of napping.
596
00:33:01.049 --> 00:33:03.210
So I just signed off with yours, a napper.
597
00:33:03.849 --> 00:33:04.009
Right.
598
00:33:04.029 --> 00:33:07.529
So any little semblance of humanity or levity or something
599
00:33:07.569 --> 00:33:11.430
that relates to the other person completely shifts the dynamic.
600
00:33:11.609 --> 00:33:13.930
And what we find is that when you send all
601
00:33:13.950 --> 00:33:15.829
of these emails out, right, Dan, when you send your
602
00:33:16.150 --> 00:33:18.869
hundreds of emails out, you know, emails that leave your
603
00:33:18.930 --> 00:33:22.059
inbox every single day, even if they're one line, if
604
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:24.880
they have a tiny bit of humanity, it creates this
605
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:27.759
ripple effect where everything you get back has a bit
606
00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:29.140
of humanity and levity as well.
607
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:31.339
What if you're actually a lizard?
608
00:33:34.210 --> 00:33:34.730
Oh my God.
609
00:33:35.190 --> 00:33:37.630
Yeah, this is a problem in the class that we
610
00:33:37.670 --> 00:33:40.380
teach for humor for reptiles. And it's a great question,
611
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:41.920
one that we really have to tackle.
612
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.460
Like I would have told that guy, your stupid email
613
00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:45.440
is making me tired.
614
00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:51.789
And then it would have been like a family member
615
00:33:51.869 --> 00:33:53.789
and they would have said, I love you. You love me.
616
00:33:53.849 --> 00:33:55.089
Exactly. Mockery.
617
00:33:55.109 --> 00:33:56.490
Oh, my God.
618
00:33:56.509 --> 00:33:58.049
Dan must love me.
619
00:33:59.109 --> 00:34:03.150
Exactly. So, yeah, my wife sometimes says she can tell
620
00:34:03.589 --> 00:34:06.109
I'm in a bad mood if I'm not saying inappropriate things,
621
00:34:06.210 --> 00:34:07.410
which is so perverse.
622
00:34:07.430 --> 00:34:08.090
Yeah.
623
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:11.940
So that actually leads me to a bit of what
624
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:14.760
may be a digression here, but I'm interested. We're talking
625
00:34:14.780 --> 00:34:16.349
about work and we're going to come back to work,
626
00:34:16.389 --> 00:34:19.469
of course, but have you taken a look at the
627
00:34:19.510 --> 00:34:25.190
application of humor in one's personal life, in romantic life,
628
00:34:25.309 --> 00:34:28.510
and what the benefits and risks may be there?
629
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:32.239
Yes. In fact, one of our favorite studies, we did
630
00:34:32.260 --> 00:34:34.380
not run this study, but we very much admire the
631
00:34:34.420 --> 00:34:36.980
researchers who did. And what they did was they just
632
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:39.989
asked people, They took like you and your wife and then,
633
00:34:40.150 --> 00:34:43.989
you know, another couple. So randomized control conditions. And they
634
00:34:44.030 --> 00:34:47.199
put you in the condition where you were asked to
635
00:34:47.300 --> 00:34:50.300
think of times where you and your wife laughed together.
636
00:34:50.860 --> 00:34:53.559
And in that other condition, the couples were asked, write
637
00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:55.929
down times or remember times when you were happy together.
638
00:34:56.570 --> 00:34:58.789
And then the researcher came back to the two different
639
00:34:58.809 --> 00:35:00.969
sets of couples and asked them, hey, by the way,
640
00:35:01.250 --> 00:35:04.920
how happy are you in your relationship? The individuals in
641
00:35:04.980 --> 00:35:08.739
your condition, the one who recalled shared moments of laughter,
642
00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:14.829
reported to be about 25% happier in their relationship than
643
00:35:14.869 --> 00:35:17.190
those who were just thinking about happy moments.
644
00:35:17.190 --> 00:35:18.550
25%.
645
00:35:18.550 --> 00:35:23.309
It's an extraordinary thing because we spend a lot of
646
00:35:23.349 --> 00:35:28.449
time on therapy, theoretically, buying flowers, theoretically. And yet, if
647
00:35:28.469 --> 00:35:31.809
you cultivate these moments of shared laughter, they become more
648
00:35:31.889 --> 00:35:35.869
memorable and They define the relationship. And their impact actually
649
00:35:36.449 --> 00:35:39.489
really lasts over time. So yes, this is really important,
650
00:35:39.530 --> 00:35:43.099
not just in business, but absolutely in life. I remember.
651
00:35:43.619 --> 00:35:46.639
reading this book by my friend Dacher Keltner from UC Berkeley.
652
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:48.360
It's called Born to be Good. He's been on the
653
00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:51.130
show before. And in there, he talked about what researchers
654
00:35:51.170 --> 00:35:54.530
were calling off-record humor, sort of like kind of inappropriate
655
00:35:54.650 --> 00:35:58.489
jokes being useful for marriages. And I think I lorded
656
00:35:58.530 --> 00:36:02.510
that over my wife for, you know, like several decades.
657
00:36:02.710 --> 00:36:05.969
And I just wonder, like, if that sounds right to you, because,
658
00:36:05.989 --> 00:36:09.530
you know, part of my humor with my wife is that,
659
00:36:09.590 --> 00:36:11.260
you know, I do say things to her I would
660
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:13.659
never say to anybody. to anybody else. And we laugh
661
00:36:13.699 --> 00:36:14.340
about that a lot.
662
00:36:15.219 --> 00:36:18.800
Well, first of all, Dacher's research is just outstanding. And
663
00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:22.159
so that does resonate. In fact, one of our other
664
00:36:22.219 --> 00:36:27.329
favorite studies is run by Dacher and his co-author, George Bonanno.
665
00:36:27.409 --> 00:36:29.809
And they looked at these effects of laughter on the
666
00:36:29.849 --> 00:36:33.670
bereavement process. So they recruited about 40 people who had
667
00:36:33.690 --> 00:36:36.489
lost a loved one in the last six months. And
668
00:36:36.530 --> 00:36:40.480
they asked them to describe their relationship. with the deceased.
669
00:36:41.099 --> 00:36:44.869
And they taped the interviews. And when they found that
670
00:36:44.909 --> 00:36:48.889
when the participants who displayed genuine laughter, which is also
671
00:36:48.909 --> 00:36:51.750
called like Duchenne laughter, when talking about their loved one,
672
00:36:51.889 --> 00:36:58.079
they reported 80% less anger and 35% less distress in
673
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:02.159
follow-on questionnaires versus those that didn't laugh at all. So
674
00:37:02.300 --> 00:37:05.760
DACRs work on positive emotions more generally, but certainly humor
675
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:10.199
and laughter in particular is So important and extremely profound.
676
00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:14.250
What is Duchenne laughter? Because it sounds like a name
677
00:37:14.309 --> 00:37:15.050
my wife calls me.
678
00:37:17.269 --> 00:37:19.989
All it is is authentic laughter, authentic smiling. So it's
679
00:37:20.030 --> 00:37:24.039
when your eyes get kind of crinkly and you're actually truly,
680
00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:26.480
truly laughing versus fake laughing.
681
00:37:27.610 --> 00:37:29.829
The fake laughter, it just brings me a little bit
682
00:37:29.889 --> 00:37:33.480
back to this power dynamic that is prevalent in many workplaces.
683
00:37:33.780 --> 00:37:37.179
And sometimes I'll make a joke and people feel like
684
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:39.400
they have to laugh. And that seems like a form
685
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:42.559
of interpersonal violence because I'm in a position of power
686
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:44.619
and I want to like, you know, puff up my
687
00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:47.000
own ego by being funny and people feel like they
688
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:49.239
have to play along. That's not a good dynamic.
689
00:37:50.150 --> 00:37:53.030
It is not a good dynamic and it happens super frequently.
690
00:37:53.150 --> 00:37:57.010
So we are hardwired to laugh at people in higher status.
691
00:37:57.050 --> 00:38:00.139
So again, there's been research where you have individuals walk
692
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:02.860
into a room, you basically prime them to believe that
693
00:38:02.900 --> 00:38:05.519
the person in front of them is high status versus
694
00:38:05.739 --> 00:38:08.400
the same status versus low status. And then you have
695
00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:10.800
that person tell a super lame joke. In a high
696
00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:13.880
status condition, the majority of people in the room will
697
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:17.369
laugh at the lame joke. In the medium status condition,
698
00:38:17.590 --> 00:38:20.159
it's sort of 50-50, but people tend to not laugh
699
00:38:20.219 --> 00:38:22.599
as much. And then in the low status condition, basically
700
00:38:22.659 --> 00:38:26.079
no one's laughing. And so we talk about as you
701
00:38:26.139 --> 00:38:31.889
rise in status, your barometer gets totally wacky, right? Because
702
00:38:31.909 --> 00:38:35.530
you're no longer getting real feedback about whether you're being appropriate,
703
00:38:35.550 --> 00:38:38.320
whether you're being funny or not. And so in that context,
704
00:38:38.380 --> 00:38:40.920
it's super important to have a set of trusted testers.
705
00:38:40.940 --> 00:38:43.800
So people who are going to really shoot straight with
706
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:46.739
you about how your humor is going and give you
707
00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:49.019
hard feedback if it's sort of going off track. I
708
00:38:49.059 --> 00:38:51.300
also want to come back to this idea of humor
709
00:38:51.340 --> 00:38:55.230
outside of work and in particular, situations that are really
710
00:38:55.289 --> 00:38:58.469
hard or dark humor in situations that are hard, right?
711
00:38:58.489 --> 00:38:59.989
You said that you say things to your wife that
712
00:39:00.010 --> 00:39:02.610
you wouldn't say to anyone else. And we've done quite
713
00:39:02.630 --> 00:39:05.869
a bit of interviewing of ER doctors during the pandemic.
714
00:39:06.190 --> 00:39:09.019
And the things that are said behind the scenes, right?
715
00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:11.440
It's this feeling of, listen, my colleagues and I are
716
00:39:11.460 --> 00:39:15.880
laughing with each other behind the scenes because we have to.
717
00:39:16.099 --> 00:39:18.440
It is a coping mechanism and we absolutely have to
718
00:39:18.460 --> 00:39:22.110
find ways to take care of ourselves emotionally. It doesn't
719
00:39:22.130 --> 00:39:24.329
mean that we're not taking our jobs seriously. In fact,
720
00:39:24.929 --> 00:39:27.550
you know, I'm taking my job so seriously that I'm
721
00:39:27.650 --> 00:39:31.280
desperate for ways to stay healthy. And we also teach
722
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:34.460
humor and improv in the local county jails in San Francisco.
723
00:39:34.900 --> 00:39:37.019
So we do this exercise in the jail. It's an
724
00:39:37.059 --> 00:39:40.480
improv exercise and it's called that or you can say like,
725
00:39:40.579 --> 00:39:44.590
screw that stuff. It's where members of the community. So
726
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:47.309
these are 35 inmates in the San Francisco County jail.
727
00:39:47.769 --> 00:39:50.000
They step into the middle of the circle and and
728
00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:54.840
they shout out something that they're frustrated about. And everyone
729
00:39:54.860 --> 00:39:56.699
on the outside of the circle has to make a
730
00:39:56.800 --> 00:40:00.300
sound or an emotion that is 10 times more frustrated
731
00:40:00.340 --> 00:40:02.480
that the person in the middle feels. So someone steps
732
00:40:02.500 --> 00:40:04.550
in the circle, they say something they're frustrated about, everyone
733
00:40:04.590 --> 00:40:06.929
else sort of growls about it or yells about it
734
00:40:06.989 --> 00:40:08.070
or says, you know.
735
00:40:08.090 --> 00:40:08.750
F * * * that.
736
00:40:09.469 --> 00:40:11.869
So what we find with this exercise is some of
737
00:40:11.909 --> 00:40:15.190
the things are poignant, some of them are funny, but
738
00:40:15.269 --> 00:40:18.110
at the end of it, there is this feeling of
739
00:40:18.150 --> 00:40:21.070
sort of camaraderie. And we've had folks in there who
740
00:40:21.110 --> 00:40:23.030
cry and say it's a really powerful experience. So there
741
00:40:23.050 --> 00:40:24.989
are things like one guy steps in the middle and
742
00:40:25.010 --> 00:40:30.070
he says, seeing the exit sign every day and not
743
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:34.340
being able to exit. And everyone just yells as loud
744
00:40:34.380 --> 00:40:36.840
as they can. Or someone else steps in and they say,
745
00:40:37.019 --> 00:40:39.960
orange being my least favorite color, you know, and everyone's
746
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:43.099
standing there in orange and everyone's just yelling. Someone else
747
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:45.179
steps in and says, my mom dying while I was
748
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:45.619
in jail.
749
00:40:46.269 --> 00:40:47.690
And everyone just yells.
750
00:40:48.309 --> 00:40:52.369
And so this ability to have real truth with each
751
00:40:52.469 --> 00:40:55.420
other and be able to look at those things and
752
00:40:55.559 --> 00:40:58.960
have also an outlet for levity and an ability to
753
00:40:59.019 --> 00:41:01.420
sort of bond over the fact that we're all here
754
00:41:01.460 --> 00:41:03.840
in orange, that there's an exit sign, whatever those things are,
755
00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:09.280
can be such an incredibly powerful and therapeutic thing to do.
756
00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:12.780
Yeah, I really resonate with that, given them as a
757
00:41:12.820 --> 00:41:16.869
former combat correspondent, and we Did a lot of joking
758
00:41:16.909 --> 00:41:20.690
in those contexts. And as I understand it, Jennifer, your
759
00:41:20.769 --> 00:41:25.349
interest in humor began in a high stakes context with
760
00:41:25.429 --> 00:41:26.909
your mom working in a hospice.
761
00:41:27.789 --> 00:41:31.159
Yeah, I grew up with mom doing basically part time
762
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:34.440
work as a hospice volunteer. So her job, she's a
763
00:41:34.460 --> 00:41:38.090
teacher and she also does hospice. American Cancer and volunteers
764
00:41:38.110 --> 00:41:41.650
for Meals on Wheels. She's one of those angels, magical people.
765
00:41:42.110 --> 00:41:45.260
But I remember growing up and she would share with
766
00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:48.179
us what people wished for in their last days of
767
00:41:48.260 --> 00:41:51.059
life because it was her job working in hospice to
768
00:41:51.099 --> 00:41:54.420
see if she could appease them or see if she
769
00:41:54.440 --> 00:41:58.239
could make them happier in some way or at least listen.
770
00:41:58.780 --> 00:42:01.150
And there were a lot of people that she spent
771
00:42:01.349 --> 00:42:05.500
the last days with who died in very joyful, very
772
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:08.610
appreciative and uplifting ways. But there were also some who
773
00:42:08.650 --> 00:42:12.829
did express regret or wishes. And they seem to fall
774
00:42:12.889 --> 00:42:16.949
into a few categories. One, I remember her saying that
775
00:42:17.070 --> 00:42:20.000
people wish that they lived more boldly. Like, I should
776
00:42:20.019 --> 00:42:21.500
have done this. I should have done that. And I
777
00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:24.599
should have traveled. I should have taken more risks. I
778
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:26.960
wish I lived more authentically. I wish I was more me.
779
00:42:27.179 --> 00:42:29.019
You know, they wish that they didn't listen as much
780
00:42:29.059 --> 00:42:31.570
to others or what they should have done. They wish
781
00:42:31.610 --> 00:42:35.449
they just savored more the small moments. There were so
782
00:42:35.489 --> 00:42:39.030
many small moments that they just rushed by. They wish
783
00:42:39.070 --> 00:42:42.170
they actually laughed more and didn't take themselves so seriously.
784
00:42:42.309 --> 00:42:44.829
So that the earlier comment you made at the beginning
785
00:42:44.849 --> 00:42:47.590
of this podcast, where you can do very serious things,
786
00:42:47.630 --> 00:42:50.809
but just not take yourself so seriously. People don't really
787
00:42:50.909 --> 00:42:55.110
realize that deeply oftentimes till it's closer to the end.
788
00:42:55.809 --> 00:42:57.829
And also I wish I had the chance to say,
789
00:42:57.949 --> 00:43:01.280
I love you one more time. And so what's been
790
00:43:01.380 --> 00:43:03.989
so fascinating in the 10 years of work that Naomi
791
00:43:04.030 --> 00:43:07.289
and I have collaborated and taught is that we've really
792
00:43:07.349 --> 00:43:10.210
found through the research and just through the stories of
793
00:43:10.929 --> 00:43:13.670
leaders and comedians that we talk to is that humor
794
00:43:13.710 --> 00:43:17.449
really mitigates not just that one regret, which I didn't
795
00:43:17.469 --> 00:43:20.719
take myself so seriously, but the others, because it allows
796
00:43:20.739 --> 00:43:23.340
you to move through negative emotions more quickly. That's what
797
00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:27.480
you found also as a wartime correspondent, because it can
798
00:43:27.539 --> 00:43:31.619
diffuse tension and empower us to take bolder risks, it
799
00:43:31.960 --> 00:43:35.559
absolutely allows us to, or can allow us to express
800
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:39.420
ourselves more authentically. In fact, when, you know, we're finding joy,
801
00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:42.139
we care less about what people think and do more
802
00:43:42.699 --> 00:43:45.860
what we believe. Almost by definition, you have to be
803
00:43:45.900 --> 00:43:48.760
more present. You know, you have to be really savoring
804
00:43:48.780 --> 00:43:51.800
because you're trying to notice these truths, these hidden truths
805
00:43:51.820 --> 00:43:55.159
in each moment or those moments for a callback, you know,
806
00:43:55.219 --> 00:43:59.409
to laugh generously again. And maybe most importantly, there are
807
00:43:59.469 --> 00:44:02.710
few ads as easy and generous as sharing a laugh
808
00:44:02.750 --> 00:44:06.550
with someone. We have Michael Lewis, who's one of our
809
00:44:06.849 --> 00:44:10.820
favorite guests and collaborators and friends, and he ends the
810
00:44:10.840 --> 00:44:13.219
book in an afterword he did with us with this
811
00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:17.539
phrase that we love, which is, where humor exists, love
812
00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:21.159
is not far behind. So yeah, that's one of the
813
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:23.719
reasons we find this to be so important, not just
814
00:44:23.780 --> 00:44:25.989
in business, but more broadly. Yeah.
815
00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:30.739
Coming up, Jennifer and Naomi share some humor lessons from
816
00:44:30.860 --> 00:44:34.039
the Dalai Lama, the New York Yankees, and Madeleine Albright.
817
00:44:34.639 --> 00:44:36.619
And they tell us what to do when an attempt
818
00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:46.690
at humor falls flat. Right after this. It's really apparent
819
00:44:46.750 --> 00:44:53.550
to me that the overlap between humor slash levity and
820
00:44:54.030 --> 00:44:59.300
both mindfulness and humor what some might call spirituality more generally.
821
00:45:00.050 --> 00:45:04.269
The mindfulness piece, the sort of present moment awareness, being
822
00:45:04.369 --> 00:45:11.409
awake quality, you just referenced in like having this mindset
823
00:45:11.469 --> 00:45:14.630
that makes you kind of humor ready where you're on
824
00:45:14.650 --> 00:45:19.250
the lookout for truth and on the lookout for connection
825
00:45:19.349 --> 00:45:25.289
and callbacks. The sort of broader contemplative piece or spiritual
826
00:45:25.329 --> 00:45:27.860
piece is, I might have mentioned this on the show before,
827
00:45:27.900 --> 00:45:30.940
so I apologize for any repetition, but in my job,
828
00:45:30.980 --> 00:45:34.860
my job is to interview not only researchers like the
829
00:45:34.900 --> 00:45:39.460
two of you, but also perhaps more frequently highly attained
830
00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:46.269
spiritual athletes. And the common denominator among all, and I
831
00:45:46.329 --> 00:45:52.630
mean all of the great spiritual teachers, gurus, whatever title
832
00:45:52.690 --> 00:45:57.239
they might prefer, the common denominator is none of them
833
00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:02.619
takes themselves seriously. And it's just so striking. I mean,
834
00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:07.619
even earlier today, I was interviewing a really, really well
835
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:12.059
established long time meditation teacher. And I don't know if
836
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:14.519
we will have posted this interview by the time that
837
00:46:14.579 --> 00:46:17.840
has gone up. His name is Ajahn Suchito, British guy
838
00:46:17.889 --> 00:46:21.289
who studied in the Thai forest tradition. So he has
839
00:46:21.349 --> 00:46:24.690
a title of Ajahn, which means basically teacher in that tradition.
840
00:46:25.480 --> 00:46:28.000
And I remember just this small, he was funny throughout,
841
00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:29.980
but just this small thing at the end, I often
842
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:33.369
asked this a little bit perfunctory question of, you know,
843
00:46:33.429 --> 00:46:35.449
is there anything I missed? Or are there any questions
844
00:46:35.489 --> 00:46:38.489
you wish I had asked? And he said, I mean,
845
00:46:38.510 --> 00:46:39.590
he didn't know I was going to ask this. And
846
00:46:39.610 --> 00:46:41.230
he just, no hesitation, he was like, there are a
847
00:46:41.269 --> 00:46:45.320
lot of questions I'm glad you didn't ask. You know,
848
00:46:45.429 --> 00:46:48.739
if you look inside, you can't help but see how
849
00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:53.280
ridiculous you are. And the humor just flows right out
850
00:46:53.300 --> 00:46:57.289
of that, even if you're not traditionally funny or what
851
00:46:57.349 --> 00:47:00.199
may be, you know, you're not a standup or a sniper.
852
00:47:00.510 --> 00:47:03.440
Do you just look enough internally and you're just going
853
00:47:03.460 --> 00:47:06.300
to see so much ridiculous stuff that the only sane
854
00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:07.679
response over time is to laugh?
855
00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:12.079
Actually, the reduction of ego and being able to laugh easily,
856
00:47:12.199 --> 00:47:15.789
generously and at yourself is is so aligned with that work.
857
00:47:15.929 --> 00:47:18.360
We have not yet met him, but the Dalai Lama
858
00:47:18.380 --> 00:47:22.619
supposedly has just an incredible sense of humor. He laughs generously.
859
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:26.219
He smiles generously. Remember there was an anecdote, I think,
860
00:47:26.280 --> 00:47:31.139
was a CNN correspondent, maybe it was Sanjay Gupta, who said, basically,
861
00:47:31.159 --> 00:47:33.860
you know, I noticed you smile a lot and it's
862
00:47:33.969 --> 00:47:38.389
very contagious. And he replied that basically we're social animals.
863
00:47:38.550 --> 00:47:41.969
And just to be able to develop Connection and friendship.
864
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:44.960
Trust is so important. And he was using humor and
865
00:47:45.099 --> 00:47:48.780
just smiling as a way in order to create that
866
00:47:48.820 --> 00:47:50.539
genuine love and trust.
867
00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:53.739
I have interviewed him a bunch of times and he
868
00:47:53.860 --> 00:47:56.760
is very funny. I've written about both of these before,
869
00:47:56.780 --> 00:47:58.980
but the first time I met him, the first thing
870
00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:00.679
he said to me was that he had to go pee.
871
00:48:00.699 --> 00:48:01.559
Yeah.
872
00:48:02.889 --> 00:48:05.210
First duty, he said. And then he went to the
873
00:48:05.250 --> 00:48:06.849
bathroom and then he came back and we talked. And
874
00:48:06.889 --> 00:48:09.449
then another time I was on a panel with him
875
00:48:09.789 --> 00:48:11.769
and I told this joke that I always tell, which
876
00:48:11.849 --> 00:48:14.789
is shortly after my first book came out, I found
877
00:48:14.829 --> 00:48:16.829
myself up in the middle of the night holding this
878
00:48:17.329 --> 00:48:20.789
screaming beast with poop everywhere. And I had this idea
879
00:48:20.849 --> 00:48:22.789
that the title of my next book is going to
880
00:48:22.809 --> 00:48:26.610
be everything in my last book was bullshit. And and
881
00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:29.000
The crowd was laughing and then I could see his
882
00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:32.880
translator reaching over to translate it for him, which made
883
00:48:32.900 --> 00:48:35.500
the whole thing even funnier. And then his response was, well,
884
00:48:35.539 --> 00:48:37.699
that tells me that you're not a very good meditator.
885
00:48:41.739 --> 00:48:46.289
And did he say, you need to meet my dad?
886
00:48:46.409 --> 00:48:49.090
He's got that borscht belt thing that my dad has.
887
00:48:49.150 --> 00:48:53.190
He is funny. I think some of the challenges of
888
00:48:53.269 --> 00:48:56.469
his public persona is that he's complex. I know plenty
889
00:48:56.489 --> 00:48:58.380
of people who know him well who've said that, you know,
890
00:48:58.389 --> 00:49:01.000
they've seen him in bad moods, they've seen him angry
891
00:49:01.260 --> 00:49:05.159
and sad. And so he's not like a just perennial goofball.
892
00:49:05.460 --> 00:49:08.760
He's a complex character, but he has this capacity to
893
00:49:08.900 --> 00:49:09.579
be really funny.
894
00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:10.880
I love that.
895
00:49:11.489 --> 00:49:13.510
Back to creating a culture at work, there are these
896
00:49:13.949 --> 00:49:18.190
character types you reference. So in chapter six of your book,
897
00:49:18.210 --> 00:49:21.260
you talk about creating a culture of levity, And you
898
00:49:21.320 --> 00:49:24.480
say that it helps to identify some of the archetypes
899
00:49:24.500 --> 00:49:28.559
of sort of workplace humor. Can you go through that taxonomy?
900
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:29.800
Yeah, totally.
901
00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:34.900
So one of them is the instigator. So the instigator,
902
00:49:35.079 --> 00:49:38.570
those are these people who come into your organization, they
903
00:49:38.650 --> 00:49:43.489
don't at all fit the mold. And oftentimes the reaction
904
00:49:43.530 --> 00:49:46.539
to an instigator coming into your organization is to reject it.
905
00:49:47.230 --> 00:49:50.719
And Ed Catmull at Pixar talks about how these instigators
906
00:49:50.780 --> 00:49:53.719
are actually some of the most important people, especially in
907
00:49:53.780 --> 00:49:58.039
creative organizations or in any high-performing organization, really, to make
908
00:49:58.139 --> 00:50:01.360
other people feel safe bringing their humor or weirdness or
909
00:50:01.400 --> 00:50:05.659
whatever it is. So one example is We talked to
910
00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:10.389
Alex Rodriguez about the 2006 Yankees season. And that was
911
00:50:10.469 --> 00:50:13.329
the season that Johnny Damon joined the team. So it
912
00:50:13.349 --> 00:50:16.280
was spring training of 2006. Johnny Damon was going to
913
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:19.500
join the Yankees. And as Alex put it, we were
914
00:50:19.619 --> 00:50:22.280
very buttoned up at that time. We were the Goldman
915
00:50:22.340 --> 00:50:26.860
Sachs of baseball. They had a famously strict policy on hair,
916
00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:30.210
nothing long in the back, no facial hair, all of that.
917
00:50:30.369 --> 00:50:33.630
And here comes in, you know, Johnny Damon drives a
918
00:50:33.670 --> 00:50:38.809
black Ferrari. His autobiography is called Idiot. He once dropped
919
00:50:38.849 --> 00:50:41.739
a pumpkin from his 34th floor balcony just to see
920
00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:44.300
what would happen. So he comes in and he's this
921
00:50:44.500 --> 00:50:48.639
archetypal instigator. And Alex told us about how on day
922
00:50:48.820 --> 00:50:52.019
one of spring training, he walks into the clubhouse at
923
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:54.969
six in the morning and he's got his boombox on
924
00:50:54.989 --> 00:50:59.429
his shoulder playing Kid Rock really, really loud. And sort
925
00:50:59.449 --> 00:51:01.530
of like all heads go on a swivel and it
926
00:51:01.570 --> 00:51:07.519
was just this moment. But rather than rejecting this energy, right?
927
00:51:07.579 --> 00:51:11.250
Rather than sort of shutting it down, the team embraced it.
928
00:51:11.380 --> 00:51:13.920
And it, as Alex said, it unlocked a lot of
929
00:51:13.960 --> 00:51:16.679
people's senses of humor and it made people relax and
930
00:51:16.739 --> 00:51:21.119
play better. So this sort of shockwave to the culture,
931
00:51:21.699 --> 00:51:25.650
this weirdness, this out there, not playing by the rules,
932
00:51:25.889 --> 00:51:29.960
blasting Kid Rock at 6 a.m., made everyone sort of
933
00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:32.539
loosen up and also bring out their own sense of humor.
934
00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:36.280
So it wasn't much later where A.J. Burnett, who's the pitcher,
935
00:51:36.300 --> 00:51:39.400
started a new tradition where every time someone hit a
936
00:51:39.429 --> 00:51:42.050
home run or had a walk-off to end the game,
937
00:51:42.289 --> 00:51:44.630
he would be waiting to smash them in the face
938
00:51:44.670 --> 00:51:47.769
with a pie. And so Alex talked about how for
939
00:51:47.809 --> 00:51:50.510
baseball in a world of everyone being appraised by numbers,
940
00:51:50.570 --> 00:51:54.840
home runs, RBIs, slugging percentages, there are these people who
941
00:51:54.880 --> 00:51:57.360
walk into a clubhouse and shift the energy.
942
00:51:58.079 --> 00:51:59.179
Who shift the ambiance.
943
00:51:59.219 --> 00:52:01.840
And it's those people who make other people loosen up,
944
00:52:01.980 --> 00:52:04.579
make them lighter, bring their full selves to work that
945
00:52:04.659 --> 00:52:08.079
actually helps make the team play much better. All right,
946
00:52:08.119 --> 00:52:12.119
so culture carriers, those are these natural leaders and rising
947
00:52:12.179 --> 00:52:15.360
stars who tend to have sort of a natural strength
948
00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:19.519
around humor. Then you've got these hidden gems. So that's
949
00:52:19.539 --> 00:52:23.480
the third type. And hidden gems are people diligent, under
950
00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:28.920
the radar, high performers that provide sort of unexpected opportunities
951
00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:32.119
for levity just by being themselves. So if you've got
952
00:52:32.139 --> 00:52:36.199
the instigator as like the doesn't fit the mold, totally
953
00:52:36.260 --> 00:52:41.239
making a ruckus, the hidden gems are completely keeping to themselves,
954
00:52:41.340 --> 00:52:44.570
doing a really good job, but often through elevating them,
955
00:52:44.610 --> 00:52:46.730
you can actually help the culture. So one example of
956
00:52:46.769 --> 00:52:50.730
a hidden gem was in Apple's creative design studio. So
957
00:52:50.849 --> 00:52:54.170
this is a story from Hiroki Asai. So he would
958
00:52:54.210 --> 00:52:57.889
have these all-hands meetings and they spent months leading up
959
00:52:57.909 --> 00:53:01.079
to these all-hands meetings trying to figure out what sort
960
00:53:01.119 --> 00:53:04.380
of fun, interesting, lively thing they would do. They had
961
00:53:04.659 --> 00:53:06.480
one time where everyone dressed up. They did like a
962
00:53:06.500 --> 00:53:09.880
blue man group presentation. They have funny videos. They have
963
00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:12.380
all of these different sort of weird things to kind
964
00:53:12.420 --> 00:53:15.860
of energize the group. Well, before one of the all-hands,
965
00:53:16.780 --> 00:53:20.960
Hiroki learned that one of his junior designers is a
966
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:22.579
gospel music singer on the weekends.
967
00:53:23.260 --> 00:53:24.429
He talked to her a little bit about it.
968
00:53:24.559 --> 00:53:28.010
And then when the all hands rolled around, Hiroki's up
969
00:53:28.070 --> 00:53:30.389
on stage and he says, actually, you know, before we
970
00:53:30.409 --> 00:53:32.730
go further, I want to bring up Emily and have
971
00:53:32.769 --> 00:53:34.710
her talk a little bit about the work she's been doing.
972
00:53:35.110 --> 00:53:36.869
Everyone looks around confused and is like, why is this
973
00:53:36.929 --> 00:53:38.909
junior designer about to come speak at the all hands?
974
00:53:39.469 --> 00:53:41.929
So this woman gets on stage, she grabs the mic
975
00:53:42.070 --> 00:53:45.159
and she starts singing Hiroki. And it turns into a
976
00:53:45.300 --> 00:53:49.340
gospel flash mob, like a gospel choir flash mob where
977
00:53:49.659 --> 00:53:52.750
the curtains come back. There's a chorus behind her. There
978
00:53:52.769 --> 00:53:55.570
are people planted in the audience who start coming forward
979
00:53:55.610 --> 00:53:58.409
and singing. And so it was just this like total
980
00:53:59.070 --> 00:54:03.230
weird burst of energy. Everyone's laughing. Everyone's singing along. But
981
00:54:03.269 --> 00:54:05.769
that's a great example of a hidden gem, right? Just someone,
982
00:54:05.969 --> 00:54:09.389
anyone in your organization who is doing a good job,
983
00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:12.380
just figuring out something that they're good at, something that
984
00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:15.719
they have a passion at outside of work, and elevating
985
00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:18.900
them to show other people, hey, it's okay to bring
986
00:54:18.920 --> 00:54:20.599
your whole self to work. Not only that, but this
987
00:54:20.659 --> 00:54:22.039
is a place where we're going to celebrate it.
988
00:54:23.360 --> 00:54:25.420
What if I want to be an instigator? If I'm
989
00:54:25.519 --> 00:54:28.119
by nature an instigator, but I'm afraid?
990
00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:31.309
One thing to think about there is we talked about
991
00:54:31.349 --> 00:54:34.989
these four humor types. And actually, it would be helpful
992
00:54:35.030 --> 00:54:38.269
to know what you think you are. You could go
993
00:54:38.289 --> 00:54:41.030
to HumorSeriously.com and take the quiz, but I'm just going
994
00:54:41.050 --> 00:54:42.900
to give you a reminder of the four types. You
995
00:54:42.940 --> 00:54:47.000
probably score high on magnet. They tend to be expressive, charismatic,
996
00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:50.179
easy to make laugh, oftentimes self-deprecating, but they enter a
997
00:54:50.239 --> 00:54:52.260
room and everyone kind of lights up. Then there's the
998
00:54:52.429 --> 00:54:56.769
sniper and their edgy, sarcastic nuance. masters of the unexpected dig.
999
00:54:56.789 --> 00:54:59.050
So you might think of Bill Burr or Michelle Wolfe,
1000
00:54:59.130 --> 00:55:01.849
whereas like the magnet might also be like Jimmy Fallon
1001
00:55:01.869 --> 00:55:06.050
or Mimi Ellen DeGeneres. Then there's the sweetheart and they're
1002
00:55:06.110 --> 00:55:09.639
earnest and understated and they use humor just that lightens
1003
00:55:09.719 --> 00:55:12.679
the mood. And then there's the standup and they're bold
1004
00:55:12.780 --> 00:55:15.639
and irreverent and unafraid to ruffle a few feathers for
1005
00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:18.260
a laugh. And what's interesting about each of these four
1006
00:55:18.340 --> 00:55:21.719
types is that if you're an instigator with one style
1007
00:55:21.739 --> 00:55:24.010
and It's going to be easier to come to life
1008
00:55:24.050 --> 00:55:26.090
in a certain way, but you also need to be
1009
00:55:26.190 --> 00:55:30.590
aware of certain disadvantages of your style as well. So
1010
00:55:31.070 --> 00:55:32.719
what would you say you are? What are your top
1011
00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:33.760
one or two styles?
1012
00:55:34.519 --> 00:55:36.679
I'm just a total sweetheart, four square.
1013
00:55:38.300 --> 00:55:40.820
That means you're a sniper and a master.
1014
00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:45.030
That's why my wife is delivering all that Duchenne laughter
1015
00:55:45.090 --> 00:55:45.610
all the time.
1016
00:55:47.849 --> 00:55:49.690
I'm so happy that you have a new word in
1017
00:55:49.730 --> 00:55:52.889
your vocabulary. You can thank Dacher as well for that one.
1018
00:55:53.809 --> 00:55:57.980
But anyway, okay, so let's assume that you're part sniper,
1019
00:55:58.079 --> 00:56:01.659
part magnet. And so if you're going to go instigate
1020
00:56:01.699 --> 00:56:05.719
more of that humor in your organization, your team, or
1021
00:56:05.780 --> 00:56:08.400
your interviews or whatever, you need to be able to
1022
00:56:08.440 --> 00:56:10.380
kind of read the room. If you do have the
1023
00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:14.110
trusted testers around, your wife around, etc., probably can lean
1024
00:56:14.179 --> 00:56:18.929
heavy into instigating humor using that sniper style. But if
1025
00:56:18.989 --> 00:56:22.269
you might want to up-level more of that magnet style,
1026
00:56:22.309 --> 00:56:24.530
which makes everyone feel kind of part of the team.
1027
00:56:24.690 --> 00:56:27.030
If you don't know people as well, or you're talking
1028
00:56:27.070 --> 00:56:31.599
about things that are challenging, or if you potentially overstepped
1029
00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:34.199
and you need to kind of recover, that type of
1030
00:56:34.260 --> 00:56:38.159
magnet style of humor to instigate can really bring people together.
1031
00:56:39.070 --> 00:56:41.239
That was all super helpful. I actually wasn't really just
1032
00:56:41.550 --> 00:56:43.860
asking for myself. I was more asking for people who
1033
00:56:43.880 --> 00:56:47.260
might work in a culture where it's scary, it's intimidating,
1034
00:56:47.659 --> 00:56:51.219
and they don't feel safe to be themselves or to
1035
00:56:51.260 --> 00:56:51.699
be funny.
1036
00:56:52.659 --> 00:56:53.989
Yeah, but even in that case.
1037
00:56:54.130 --> 00:56:56.989
The little story that I just shared more anchored on
1038
00:56:57.030 --> 00:57:01.210
you is applicable. So if they understand what is their
1039
00:57:01.289 --> 00:57:04.380
authentic humor style, and everyone usually has one or two,
1040
00:57:05.170 --> 00:57:07.030
And then they want to be able to use it
1041
00:57:07.170 --> 00:57:10.969
in the culture, but offset risks. They might lean into
1042
00:57:11.130 --> 00:57:13.349
one of the styles that are natural, but also do
1043
00:57:14.170 --> 00:57:18.050
tend to be associated with more minimal risks. Another style
1044
00:57:18.170 --> 00:57:22.949
that really tends to uplift others and doesn't overstep or...
1045
00:57:23.590 --> 00:57:26.289
create friction is the sweetheart. Again, they're not trying to
1046
00:57:26.329 --> 00:57:29.349
be funny. They're trying to really often uplift others and
1047
00:57:29.389 --> 00:57:33.860
their humor is more earnest and understated. So Hiroki Asai,
1048
00:57:34.059 --> 00:57:37.260
who is at Apple now at Airbnb, he scores very
1049
00:57:37.340 --> 00:57:41.300
high on sweetheart. And so as he instigates humor, it's
1050
00:57:41.360 --> 00:57:43.619
not only in the way that he manifests it, but
1051
00:57:43.679 --> 00:57:47.050
it's the other people that he pulls in like these
1052
00:57:47.110 --> 00:57:47.650
hidden gems.
1053
00:57:48.909 --> 00:57:52.969
One last practical question. Any advice for when you're Somebody
1054
00:57:53.010 --> 00:57:55.380
in the room has made an inappropriate joke. What's the
1055
00:57:55.420 --> 00:57:56.619
best way to handle that?
1056
00:57:57.480 --> 00:57:57.739
Yeah.
1057
00:57:58.320 --> 00:58:01.019
And you're phrasing it as inappropriate joke. So let me
1058
00:58:01.059 --> 00:58:03.760
zoom out for one second and say it's really important
1059
00:58:03.800 --> 00:58:07.260
to make a distinction about different types of humor fails
1060
00:58:07.659 --> 00:58:09.829
because we tend to code all humor fails the same.
1061
00:58:10.010 --> 00:58:13.389
If someone doesn't laugh, then that's horrible. I've done something wrong.
1062
00:58:13.909 --> 00:58:17.079
I'm never using humor again. There's actually research to suggest
1063
00:58:17.119 --> 00:58:19.760
that if you use humor in a professional context and
1064
00:58:19.800 --> 00:58:22.900
it doesn't get a laugh, as long as it's appropriate,
1065
00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:26.679
it still increases other people's perceptions of your confidence and
1066
00:58:26.739 --> 00:58:29.909
doesn't have a meaningful impact on status. So I just
1067
00:58:29.929 --> 00:58:34.110
want to debunk the fact that all humor fails are bad.
1068
00:58:34.289 --> 00:58:35.170
They're not actually.
1069
00:58:35.210 --> 00:58:37.309
They can sort of help other people feel comfortable bringing
1070
00:58:37.329 --> 00:58:39.469
their full selves to work. Now, if you do say
1071
00:58:39.510 --> 00:58:43.820
something inappropriate and it ruffles feathers... It's really easy in
1072
00:58:43.860 --> 00:58:47.519
that context, and hopefully this is getting less common, but
1073
00:58:47.820 --> 00:58:50.559
it can be really easy in that context to say, oh, well,
1074
00:58:50.579 --> 00:58:53.059
they just didn't get it. They didn't get the joke.
1075
00:58:53.480 --> 00:58:57.590
They're too sensitive. They're taking it too seriously. And this
1076
00:58:57.630 --> 00:59:00.670
can be really dangerous because we know that humor that's
1077
00:59:00.710 --> 00:59:04.909
derogatory can actually have a real impact on how people
1078
00:59:04.949 --> 00:59:07.349
think and how people behave. So it can make prejudiced
1079
00:59:07.369 --> 00:59:09.590
people more likely to act on their prejudice. So humor
1080
00:59:09.610 --> 00:59:13.179
that's denigrating and that's derogatory can be really unsafe for
1081
00:59:13.260 --> 00:59:16.179
us as communities. So if you cross a line, if
1082
00:59:16.199 --> 00:59:19.889
you offend someone, it's so important to lean in and
1083
00:59:20.050 --> 00:59:26.469
understand what went wrong. So first, obviously, a genuine apology, right? Hey,
1084
00:59:26.650 --> 00:59:28.949
I clearly missed something. I'm really sorry.
1085
00:59:29.010 --> 00:59:30.050
I didn't mean to.
1086
00:59:30.590 --> 00:59:34.719
And then second, understanding what you were missing that caused
1087
00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:37.519
you to go so wrong. Hey, help me understand. I'd
1088
00:59:37.559 --> 00:59:40.360
really love to learn from this. So leaning in and
1089
00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:43.219
not assuming that it's someone else's fault, really assuming that
1090
00:59:43.260 --> 00:59:46.550
this is a blind spot for you. It's an empathy fail,
1091
00:59:46.809 --> 00:59:49.070
even more so than it is a humor fail. And
1092
00:59:49.090 --> 00:59:53.920
you need to get to the We often coach the
1093
00:59:53.960 --> 00:59:56.179
leaders that we work with. If you want to get
1094
00:59:56.219 --> 00:59:59.500
real feedback from your team, after a session where you've
1095
00:59:59.559 --> 01:00:03.050
tried to use some humor, instead of asking the question, hey,
1096
01:00:03.090 --> 01:00:06.690
do you think that humor offended someone? Ask the question, hey,
1097
01:00:06.829 --> 01:00:09.190
can you help me think about how the humor I
1098
01:00:09.369 --> 01:00:12.170
used might have landed wrong? Can you help me think
1099
01:00:12.210 --> 01:00:16.030
about how what I said could have been inappropriate? And
1100
01:00:16.070 --> 01:00:19.489
that often makes other people feel safer to voice some
1101
01:00:19.590 --> 01:00:22.230
discomfort or to surface if people are just laughing because
1102
01:00:22.250 --> 01:00:22.849
you're the boss.
1103
01:00:24.389 --> 01:00:27.449
That's all great advice. You really took the question in
1104
01:00:27.489 --> 01:00:29.880
the direction of what to do if you feel like
1105
01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:34.019
you've said something that's inappropriate. Are there thoughts on what
1106
01:00:34.079 --> 01:00:36.539
you can do if you're a witness to somebody saying
1107
01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:37.400
something inappropriate?
1108
01:00:38.260 --> 01:00:39.119
I think naming it.
1109
01:00:39.340 --> 01:00:42.860
If someone has a specific story, we break down exactly
1110
01:00:43.449 --> 01:00:45.730
what went wrong and what they would do. It is
1111
01:00:45.829 --> 01:00:49.329
so context dependent. So sometimes the right thing to do
1112
01:00:49.829 --> 01:00:51.550
is to name it in the moment in front of
1113
01:00:51.670 --> 01:00:54.869
everyone to sort of make a stand. Sometimes the right
1114
01:00:54.889 --> 01:00:57.659
thing to do is to approach that person afterwards and
1115
01:00:57.699 --> 01:01:00.320
let them know and have a one-on-one conversation to give
1116
01:01:00.400 --> 01:01:03.039
them the time and space to come back, name it
1117
01:01:03.340 --> 01:01:04.800
for themselves and apologize.
1118
01:01:05.280 --> 01:01:09.860
Just personal interaction, just pulling one person aside. And oftentimes
1119
01:01:09.949 --> 01:01:12.969
we find that when you just pull someone aside and
1120
01:01:13.010 --> 01:01:16.929
have that kind of open conversation, that relationship actually becomes
1121
01:01:17.030 --> 01:01:20.570
closer because people are so appreciative and the costs associated
1122
01:01:20.610 --> 01:01:23.489
with calling it out and naming it are so minimal
1123
01:01:23.530 --> 01:01:25.369
because it's just a one-on-one conversation.
1124
01:01:25.849 --> 01:01:29.929
So one example of this is one of our interviews, Thomas,
1125
01:01:30.190 --> 01:01:32.880
who is the CEO of a small digital media company.
1126
01:01:33.159 --> 01:01:37.320
And he had about 30 full-time employees and he had
1127
01:01:37.380 --> 01:01:42.590
this one problem employee who we'll call Jackie. So Everyone
1128
01:01:42.699 --> 01:01:46.079
on the team had let Thomas know that she was
1129
01:01:46.380 --> 01:01:48.840
not performing up to the standards. She was showing up late.
1130
01:01:48.880 --> 01:01:52.239
She was missing deadlines and not following through. And more
1131
01:01:52.260 --> 01:01:55.219
than that, there was feedback that her demeanor was really
1132
01:01:55.260 --> 01:01:58.289
destructive to the team culture. So this is a woman
1133
01:01:58.329 --> 01:02:01.469
that had been with the organization from the beginning and
1134
01:02:01.650 --> 01:02:03.130
everyone knew that there was sort.
1135
01:02:02.989 --> 01:02:03.829
Of a problem there.
1136
01:02:04.030 --> 01:02:06.869
So Thomas went through this whole process. He gave her
1137
01:02:06.929 --> 01:02:09.510
a performance improvement plan, gave her all this feedback. It
1138
01:02:09.570 --> 01:02:11.500
really wasn't working. So he made the hard choice to
1139
01:02:11.519 --> 01:02:15.900
fire her So the first big team meeting was one
1140
01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:20.260
that Jackie would normally lead. So everyone walks into the room,
1141
01:02:20.420 --> 01:02:23.679
sits down, and her absence is palpable, right? It's this
1142
01:02:23.739 --> 01:02:27.179
tense moment. So in an effort to break the tension,
1143
01:02:27.440 --> 01:02:30.920
Thomas opens the meeting by making a joke. He says,
1144
01:02:30.940 --> 01:02:35.619
all right, Jackie, take it away. And this could not
1145
01:02:35.679 --> 01:02:38.570
have been a more inappropriate joke to make. So the
1146
01:02:38.619 --> 01:02:43.019
room just goes completely silent. One of his employees breaks
1147
01:02:43.079 --> 01:02:46.679
the silence and says, I don't think that's funny. And
1148
01:02:46.699 --> 01:02:48.980
to his credit, and he talked about it later, he
1149
01:02:49.119 --> 01:02:52.110
stopped on a dime. He shifted and he said, you're
1150
01:02:52.289 --> 01:02:55.309
absolutely right. I'm so sorry. And then he named what
1151
01:02:55.329 --> 01:02:59.090
was true for him. He said, I feel a lot
1152
01:02:59.130 --> 01:03:01.909
of guilt and a lot of personal responsibility for making
1153
01:03:01.949 --> 01:03:04.800
that decision. I feel a lot of tension right now.
1154
01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:06.639
And that was my way of trying to break the
1155
01:03:06.699 --> 01:03:09.159
tension in the room. It was super inappropriate. And I
1156
01:03:09.219 --> 01:03:11.989
am so sorry. Can I start over? And another one
1157
01:03:12.010 --> 01:03:15.250
of his employees said, yeah, absolutely. So he physically walked
1158
01:03:15.369 --> 01:03:18.809
out of the room. He walked back in and he
1159
01:03:18.849 --> 01:03:22.130
started over. He said, hey, everyone, I want to have
1160
01:03:22.150 --> 01:03:24.650
a real conversation about Jackie's departure. And I want to
1161
01:03:24.670 --> 01:03:27.010
give space to answer any questions. And then he jumped
1162
01:03:27.030 --> 01:03:30.050
into the agenda. So that's a great example of having
1163
01:03:30.090 --> 01:03:32.329
it go wrong in the moment. One of his employees
1164
01:03:32.389 --> 01:03:35.679
having the courage to say something about it. And also
1165
01:03:35.719 --> 01:03:39.699
that being such a kind and generous way of allowing
1166
01:03:39.739 --> 01:03:42.599
this leader, of allowing Thomas to name it, to name
1167
01:03:42.639 --> 01:03:44.500
what he had done wrong and to try and make
1168
01:03:44.539 --> 01:03:44.880
it right.
1169
01:03:46.219 --> 01:03:49.840
So much good stuff and a lot of courage and
1170
01:03:49.940 --> 01:03:52.840
self-awareness all around on that story. As we vector toward
1171
01:03:52.880 --> 01:03:55.139
the close here, let me just ask the question I
1172
01:03:55.260 --> 01:03:59.039
asked to Ajahn Suchito, which is, is there any thing
1173
01:03:59.079 --> 01:04:01.260
I should have asked you that I failed to ask?
1174
01:04:02.300 --> 01:04:05.119
There were a lot of questions that you did ask
1175
01:04:05.239 --> 01:04:09.619
us that you shouldn't have asked us. So, I mean,
1176
01:04:09.699 --> 01:04:12.480
one thing that I think we really end our class
1177
01:04:12.539 --> 01:04:16.219
with is, well, there's two things. One is, you know,
1178
01:04:16.280 --> 01:04:19.469
just this idea that humor is a choice. And it's
1179
01:04:19.699 --> 01:04:22.269
one that we can make in small moments, but also...
1180
01:04:23.769 --> 01:04:26.570
big ones. And it's so important to us as we
1181
01:04:26.590 --> 01:04:29.369
think about training new types of leaders. It used to
1182
01:04:29.409 --> 01:04:32.239
be that leaders needed to be revered and respected and
1183
01:04:32.280 --> 01:04:35.440
kind of mysterious and walk in water types. And now
1184
01:04:35.500 --> 01:04:37.940
we really find that they need to be understood. They
1185
01:04:37.980 --> 01:04:41.199
need to cultivate trust. You need to feel like you
1186
01:04:41.260 --> 01:04:44.360
know them. It's a really different type of leadership model
1187
01:04:44.380 --> 01:04:46.099
that we need in the world right now, not just
1188
01:04:46.139 --> 01:04:48.820
in the United States, but globally. And what's really powerful
1189
01:04:49.019 --> 01:04:52.909
is that if people can understand how to better wield
1190
01:04:52.969 --> 01:04:56.570
the tool of humor and know how to use it
1191
01:04:56.690 --> 01:04:59.650
to lift others or even just illuminate truth, you know,
1192
01:04:59.690 --> 01:05:01.190
we really believe the world could be a different and
1193
01:05:01.210 --> 01:05:04.780
better place. One of our favorite stories to help support
1194
01:05:04.820 --> 01:05:08.079
that is Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who came into
1195
01:05:08.139 --> 01:05:10.630
our class a couple years ago, and she told us
1196
01:05:10.670 --> 01:05:13.559
about the time the Russian government had bugged the U.S.
1197
01:05:13.579 --> 01:05:19.199
State Department, a serious breach. international diplomacy. And after learning
1198
01:05:19.340 --> 01:05:22.840
about the bugging, she arrived at her next meeting with
1199
01:05:22.860 --> 01:05:28.309
the Russian foreign minister wearing this enormous bug pin, like
1200
01:05:28.449 --> 01:05:32.829
this enormous bug pin. And he couldn't help but smile
1201
01:05:32.849 --> 01:05:35.409
when he saw it. And she didn't say anything. It
1202
01:05:35.449 --> 01:05:37.869
wasn't a joke. And she shared how the energy in
1203
01:05:37.889 --> 01:05:41.239
the room shifted and it changed the entire conversation. And
1204
01:05:41.940 --> 01:05:45.119
And so we hope to illuminate these ideas, like what
1205
01:05:45.300 --> 01:05:47.820
are those small and big moments where you can change
1206
01:05:47.840 --> 01:05:50.329
the energy in the room? And the second thing is
1207
01:05:50.389 --> 01:05:53.269
just this idea that the balance of gravity and levity
1208
01:05:53.929 --> 01:05:56.489
really give power to both. We're living in what feels
1209
01:05:56.530 --> 01:05:59.090
to be very serious times. And that if we can
1210
01:05:59.150 --> 01:06:02.650
somehow aim toward this goal of doing very serious things
1211
01:06:02.690 --> 01:06:06.010
without taking ourselves too seriously, knowing that we can often
1212
01:06:06.050 --> 01:06:09.949
do them better and more fashionably, that what would work
1213
01:06:10.250 --> 01:06:13.230
look like and what might life look like? What might
1214
01:06:13.269 --> 01:06:18.849
relationships do? And could you ultimately cultivate more love?
1215
01:06:20.949 --> 01:06:23.570
I love it. Super quick. Can you just remind everybody
1216
01:06:23.590 --> 01:06:25.889
of the name of your book and any other resources
1217
01:06:25.929 --> 01:06:26.929
you've got out there in the world?
1218
01:06:27.809 --> 01:06:28.130
Sure.
1219
01:06:28.329 --> 01:06:32.400
Our book is Humor Seriously, and we just gave a
1220
01:06:32.420 --> 01:06:35.420
TED Talk. We have a TED Talk called Why Great
1221
01:06:35.460 --> 01:06:36.840
Leaders Take Humor Seriously.
1222
01:06:37.579 --> 01:06:40.059
Also, figure out what your humor style is. If you
1223
01:06:40.099 --> 01:06:44.380
just go to HumorSeriously.com, you can take a two-minute quiz
1224
01:06:44.639 --> 01:06:47.079
to find out what your own style is. And that
1225
01:06:47.139 --> 01:06:50.400
becomes so generative because then you can start to play
1226
01:06:50.420 --> 01:06:55.960
with this tool in more authentic, natural, and fun ways. Excellent.
1227
01:06:56.219 --> 01:06:57.809
Naomi and Jennifer, thank you so much.
1228
01:06:58.050 --> 01:06:59.090
Thank you, Dan.
1229
01:06:59.150 --> 01:07:00.110
Thank you for having us.
1230
01:07:01.789 --> 01:07:04.809
Big thanks to Jennifer and Naomi. And big thanks as
1231
01:07:04.849 --> 01:07:06.670
well to everybody who worked so hard on this show.
1232
01:07:07.090 --> 01:07:11.480
Samuel Johns, Gabrielle Zuckerman, DJ Kashmir, Justine Davey, Kim Baikama,
1233
01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:15.440
Maria Wartell, and Jen Poyant. And the good folks over
1234
01:07:15.480 --> 01:07:19.139
at Ultraviolet Audio who do our audio engineering. Coming up
1235
01:07:19.719 --> 01:07:23.070
on Friday, a bonus meditation that plays off of the
1236
01:07:23.789 --> 01:07:26.139
themes we've been exploring on this show about how not
1237
01:07:26.179 --> 01:07:29.750
to take yourself so seriously. That's coming up from my
1238
01:07:29.769 --> 01:07:31.050
friend Jeff Warren on Friday.