The Refuge | 5 | Path Dependence

Speaker:
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Nick Mott: This series was supported by



Speaker:
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Nick Mott: the Pulitzer Center.



Speaker:
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Lisa Murkowski: Mr. President,



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Lisa Murkowski: I don't know if you've



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Lisa Murkowski: recognize. This is a very



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Lisa Murkowski: historic day, of course, but



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Lisa Murkowski: it's also the beginning



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Lisa Murkowski: of winter solstice.



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Amy Martin: Welcome to Threshold, I'm Amy



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Amy Martin: Martin, and this is the final



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Amy Martin: episode in our series about



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Amy Martin: the Arctic National Wildlife



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Amy Martin: Refuge.



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Amy Martin: And to kick us off here, I want



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Amy Martin: to return to where we started



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Amy Martin: with Alaska Senator Lisa



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Amy Martin: Murkowski on December



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Amy Martin: 20th, 2017.



Speaker:
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Lisa Murkowski: This has been a



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Lisa Murkowski: multi-generational



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Lisa Murkowski: fight.



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Amy Martin: Senator Murkowski was



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Amy Martin: celebrating the signing of the



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Amy Martin: Tax Cuts and Jobs Act,



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: which included a provision



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Amy Martin: mandating an oil and gas



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Amy Martin: lease sale in the refuge.



Speaker:
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Lisa Murkowski: This is a bright today



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Lisa Murkowski: for Alaska.



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Lisa Murkowski: This is a bright day for



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Lisa Murkowski: America.So



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Lisa Murkowski: we thank you for that.



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Amy Martin: Despite the celebratory tone,



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Amy Martin: when you watch this video from



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Amy Martin: CNN, the moment actually



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Amy Martin: seems loaded with awkwardness.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: Senator Murkowski is speaking



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Amy Martin: while President Trump looks on



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Amy Martin: from the side smiling.



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Amy Martin: But just five months earlier,



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Amy Martin: she had made him very angry



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Amy Martin: by breaking with her party to



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Amy Martin: vote against his attempt to



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Amy Martin: repeal the Affordable Care Act.



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Amy Martin: And nine months after the tax



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Amy Martin: bill was signed, Murkowski



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Amy Martin: would become the only



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Amy Martin: Republican senator to openly



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Amy Martin: oppose Trump's Supreme Court



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Amy Martin: nominee, Brett Kavanaugh.



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Amy Martin: And then there's climate



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Amy Martin: change.



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Amy Martin: Senator Murkowski talks about



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Amy Martin: it as a reality and a threat,



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Amy Martin: while the president denies that



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Amy Martin: it's happening.



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Amy Martin: So it's hard to imagine



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Amy Martin: that these two are exactly



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Amy Martin: pals.



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Amy Martin: But on this issue, opening



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Amy Martin: the largest wildlife refuge in



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Amy Martin: the country to oil and gas



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Amy Martin: drilling, they found common



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Amy Martin: ground.



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Lisa Murkowski: This, Mr. President, is



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Lisa Murkowski: what energy dominance



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Lisa Murkowski: is all about.



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Amy Martin: So my question is: why?



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Amy Martin: Why is a moderate Republican,



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Amy Martin: one who's concerned about



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Amy Martin: climate change leading the



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Amy Martin: charge for fossil fuel



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Amy Martin: development in a pristine



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Amy Martin: wildlife refuge?



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: How did this become the issue



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Amy Martin: that brought Senator Murkowski



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Amy Martin: and President Trump together?



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Victoria Herrmann: Historically, we have looked



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Victoria Herrmann: in the north of



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Victoria Herrmann: oil as an economic



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Victoria Herrmann: asset, and we have



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Victoria Herrmann: squared it separately



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Victoria Herrmann: from climate change.



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Amy Martin: Victoria Herrmann is the



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Amy Martin: managing director of the Arctic



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Amy Martin: Institute, a think tank based



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Amy Martin: in Washington, DC.



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Victoria Herrmann: Alaska is an oil



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Victoria Herrmann: state, right?



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Victoria Herrmann: It provides revenue



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Victoria Herrmann: to run the state budget, to



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Victoria Herrmann: run its schools, its health



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Victoria Herrmann: care system, and it provides



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Victoria Herrmann: thousands of jobs across the



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Victoria Herrmann: state.



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Victoria Herrmann: Oil equates to



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Victoria Herrmann: the economy.



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Victoria Herrmann: It does not factor in



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Victoria Herrmann: into climate change



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Victoria Herrmann: conversations because that



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Victoria Herrmann: is in a separate silo.



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Amy Martin: As we've mentioned earlier,



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Amy Martin: more than 80% of the



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Amy Martin: money in Alaska state budget



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Amy Martin: comes from taxes and royalties



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Amy Martin: that oil companies pay to the



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Amy Martin: state.



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Amy Martin: Historically, it's been closer



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Amy Martin: to 90%.



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Amy Martin: And Victoria says that history,



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Amy Martin: that commitment to oil



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Amy Martin: as the lifeblood of the state



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Amy Martin: of Alaska, that was



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Amy Martin: also a commitment to a certain



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Amy Martin: way of thinking.



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Victoria Herrmann: I think currently



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Victoria Herrmann: there is a path dependance



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Victoria Herrmann: on how we think about



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Victoria Herrmann: energy and the Arctic



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Victoria Herrmann: National Wildlife Refuge and



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Victoria Herrmann: how we think about climate



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Victoria Herrmann: change.



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Amy Martin: Path dependence?



Speaker:
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Victoria Herrmann: A path dependance.



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Victoria Herrmann: When Senator Murkowski talks



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Victoria Herrmann: about ANWR, she does not



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Victoria Herrmann: talk about climate change,



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Victoria Herrmann: right? She has divided these



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Victoria Herrmann: into two completely separate



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Victoria Herrmann: conversations.



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Victoria Herrmann: You will not see them overlap



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Victoria Herrmann: because if they do, then



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Victoria Herrmann: you have a conflict.



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Victoria Herrmann: You have a tension between



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Victoria Herrmann: drilling, but also wanting



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Victoria Herrmann: to mitigate your greenhouse gas



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Victoria Herrmann: emissions.



Speaker:
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Victoria Herrmann: So they have to stay separate.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: The fight over drilling in the



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: refuge predates our battles



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Amy Martin: over climate change, but not



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Amy Martin: by much.



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Amy Martin: Both questions emerged in the



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Amy Martin: 1980s, even though at



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: that time the two issues were



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Amy Martin: not connected in people's



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Amy Martin: minds.



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Amy Martin: Looking back, it's like



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Amy Martin: watching two trains leaving



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: the station side by side,



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: and as they head out, they look



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Amy Martin: like they're on parallel



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Amy Martin: tracks.



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Amy Martin: As the decades roll by, though,



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Amy Martin: you can start to see that those



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Amy Martin: tracks are actually slowly



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Amy Martin: moving closer and closer



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Amy Martin: together.



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Amy Martin: And now, no matter how much



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: some people might want to keep



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: them apart, the ten-tonne



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Amy Martin: locomotive of climate change



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Amy Martin: is crashing into the debate



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Amy Martin: over the future of the refuge.



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Speaker 5: What is the value of



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Speaker 5: these animals and their



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Speaker 5: ecosystems?



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Speaker 6: It's a big opportunity



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Speaker 6: that we be able to



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Speaker 6: profit off of.



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Speaker 7: Our permafrost is melting.



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Speaker 7: Our snow doesn't stick



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Speaker 7: like it used to.



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Speaker 8: I think that it would open up a



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Speaker 8: lot of jobs.



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Speaker 8: I think that it could be a



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Speaker 8: really good thing.



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Speaker 9: This is where we have to live.



Speaker:
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Speaker 9: This is where we have to leave



Speaker:
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Speaker 9: our children when we die.



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Speaker 9: You have to think about that.



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Speaker 10: Climate change is happening.



Speaker:
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Speaker 10: We need to do something about



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Speaker 10: it.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: Between June of 1988



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: and March of 1989,



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Amy Martin: four different events happened,



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Amy Martin: which have kind of a spooky



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Amy Martin: level of interconnectedness.



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Amy Martin: At least that's how it seems



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Amy Martin: to me looking back at them now,



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Amy Martin: at the time, they probably



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: didn't seem very related to



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: most of the people involved



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Amy Martin: because like Victoria Herrmann



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Amy Martin: just described, these events



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Amy Martin: were unfolding on different



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: paths, parallel tracks.



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Amy Martin: But as I researched the



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Amy Martin: controversy over drilling in



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Amy Martin: the refuge, I got fascinated



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: by this nine months and how



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: these four events, two



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Amy Martin: in Alaska, two in Washington,



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: D.C., foreshadow



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: the moment we're in now,



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Amy Martin: when the debate about drilling



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: in the refuge and the debate



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: about how to respond to the



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: climate crisis are slamming



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: into each other full force.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: The first event started June



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: 5th, 1988.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: This is what we talked about in



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: our last episode, the Gwich'in



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: gathering members



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Amy Martin: of the Gwich'in Nation on both



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Amy Martin: sides of the U.S.



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Amy Martin: Canada border came together



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Amy Martin: in Arctic Village, Alaska



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: to discuss how to respond



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Amy Martin: to the threat of oil



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Amy Martin: development on the coastal



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Amy Martin: plain.



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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: This doesn't make sense to



Speaker:
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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: destroy such and



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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: this piece of land.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: This is from a video of the



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: gathering made by Northern



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: Native Broadcasting.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: The man speaking is young.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: He's outside.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: He's carrying a gun on his



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: shoulder.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: It looks like he was asked to



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: do an interview on his way out



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: to go hunting.



Speaker:
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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: I don't see why we should mess



Speaker:
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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: with it.



Speaker:
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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: It doesn't belong to nobody.



Speaker:
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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: It's just like



Speaker:
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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: our parents.



Speaker:
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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: We survive on it.



Speaker:
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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: It's hard to see



Speaker:
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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: the people trying to



Speaker:
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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: destroy the property,



Speaker:
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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: especially the caribou.



Speaker:
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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: I mean, raiding.



Speaker:
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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: They're carrying guns.



Speaker:
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Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: They're going to dig around in their calving grounds.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: The gathering ended on June



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: 10th and the Gwich'in began



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: to distribute their message



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: that they were united in



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: opposition to drilling in the



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: refuge.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: So that's number one of four



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: here. The second thing



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: happened just 13 days later



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: on the other side of the



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: continent.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: It's June 23rd, 1988,



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: and the Senate Energy and



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: Natural Resources Committee is



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: holding a hearing.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: It's a sweltering day in



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: Washington, D.C., and



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: senators are gathered to listen



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: to scientist James Hansen.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: Hansen was working for NASA at



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: the time, and he was invited



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: to speak at this hearing to



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: deliver some startling news.



Speaker:
00:07:34
Amy Martin: Humans were warming up the



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: planet by burning fossil fuels.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: The chairman of that Senate



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: committee was J.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: Bennett Johnston, a Democrat



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: from Louisiana.



Speaker:
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Senator Johnston: This was very much an



Speaker:
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Senator Johnston: introduction to the



Speaker:
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Senator Johnston: issue for the public.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: Senator Johnston is 86



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: years old now.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: I spoke to him over the phone.



Speaker:
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Senator Johnston: It was clear to me that



Speaker:
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Senator Johnston: global warming was a coming



Speaker:
00:07:56
Senator Johnston: issue and that we needed to pay



Speaker:
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Senator Johnston: attention to it.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: The idea that humans could be



Speaker:
00:08:01
Amy Martin: heating up the planet wasn't



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: new.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: Scientists have been talking



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: about the possibility for a



Speaker:
00:08:06
Amy Martin: long time, but James



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: Hansen was presenting evidence



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: that it was more than a



Speaker:
00:08:10
Amy Martin: possibility it was actually



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: happening.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: This was big news.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: The hearing made the front page



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: of the New York Times the next



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: day under the headline, "Global



Speaker:
00:08:19
Amy Martin: Warming has Begun, Expert



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: tells Senate.



Speaker:
00:08:23
Amy Martin: Senator Johnston says he took



Speaker:
00:08:24
Amy Martin: climate change seriously



Speaker:
00:08:26
Amy Martin: from the beginning.



Speaker:
00:08:27
Senator Johnston: Yeah, I mean, we've got to cut



Speaker:
00:08:29
Senator Johnston: down on the amount of carbon



Speaker:
00:08:30
Senator Johnston: that we produce worldwide.



Speaker:
00:08:32
Senator Johnston: It's a worldwide issue.



Speaker:
00:08:34
Senator Johnston: The United States needs to lead



Speaker:
00:08:36
Senator Johnston: the world.



Speaker:
00:08:37
Senator Johnston: It was a great mistake to



Speaker:
00:08:38
Senator Johnston: withdraw from the



Speaker:
00:08:40
Senator Johnston: Paris Accords.



Speaker:
00:08:42
Senator Johnston: That's what we need to do



Speaker:
00:08:44
Senator Johnston: is do this on a worldwide



Speaker:
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Senator Johnston: basis.



Speaker:
00:08:48
Amy Martin: So the Gwich'in gathering and



Speaker:
00:08:49
Amy Martin: the James Hansen testimony



Speaker:
00:08:51
Amy Martin: happened within two weeks of



Speaker:
00:08:52
Amy Martin: each other in June 1988.



Speaker:
00:08:54
Amy Martin: Now, fast forward to March



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: of 1989.



Speaker:
00:08:58
Amy Martin: We're still in Washington.



Speaker:
00:08:59
Amy Martin: In fact, we're still in that



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: same committee.



Speaker:
00:09:02
Amy Martin: It's March 16th and



Speaker:
00:09:03
Amy Martin: the Senate Energy and Natural



Speaker:
00:09:04
Amy Martin: Resources Committee votes yes



Speaker:
00:09:07
Amy Martin: on a bill to drill in the



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: Arctic National Wildlife



Speaker:
00:09:09
Amy Martin: Refuge.



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: The sponsor of that bill,



Speaker:
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Amy Martin: Senator J.



Speaker:
00:09:13
Amy Martin: Bennett Johnston.



Speaker:
00:09:14
Senator Johnston: I was absolutely convinced,



Speaker:
00:09:16
Senator Johnston: having been there many times



Speaker:
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Senator Johnston: and having extensive



Speaker:
00:09:19
Senator Johnston: hearings, that



Speaker:
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Senator Johnston: the ecological damage



Speaker:
00:09:22
Senator Johnston: would be minimal.



Speaker:
00:09:24
Senator Johnston: The potential



Speaker:
00:09:25
Senator Johnston: for oil and gas for



Speaker:
00:09:27
Senator Johnston: the United States was great.



Speaker:
00:09:29
Amy Martin: And he still feels that way



Speaker:
00:09:30
Amy Martin: today.



Speaker:
00:09:31
Amy Martin: The senator who presided over



Speaker:
00:09:33
Amy Martin: the committee which held the



Speaker:
00:09:34
Amy Martin: nation's first congressional



Speaker:
00:09:35
Amy Martin: climate change hearings, is



Speaker:
00:09:37
Amy Martin: the same senator who's been



Speaker:
00:09:38
Amy Martin: pushing to drill for oil in the



Speaker:
00:09:40
Amy Martin: refuge since Ronald Reagan was



Speaker:
00:09:41
Amy Martin: president.



Speaker:
00:09:42
Amy Martin: Yes, I have questions, too.



Speaker:
00:09:44
Amy Martin: We're coming back to that.



Speaker:
00:09:46
Amy Martin: But first, you need to know



Speaker:
00:09:47
Amy Martin: about event number four.



Speaker:
00:09:49
Amy Martin: On March 24th, just



Speaker:
00:09:51
Amy Martin: eight days after that pro



Speaker:
00:09:52
Amy Martin: drilling bill advanced out of



Speaker:
00:09:53
Amy Martin: committee, this happens.



Speaker:
00:09:56
CNN: The tanker Exxon Valdez,



Speaker:
00:09:58
CNN: gouged by a reef.



Speaker:
00:09:59
CNN: It's already the largest oil



Speaker:
00:10:01
CNN: spill in U.S.



Speaker:
00:10:02
CNN: history.



Speaker:
00:10:03
Amy Martin: This is from a CNN report



Speaker:
00:10:05
Amy Martin: recorded the day of the Exxon



Speaker:
00:10:06
Amy Martin: Valdez oil spill.



Speaker:
00:10:08
CNN: More than 8.5 million gallons



Speaker:
00:10:10
CNN: poured into Prince William



Speaker:
00:10:11
CNN: Sound, a prime fishing and



Speaker:
00:10:13
CNN: recreation area.



Speaker:
00:10:14
CNN: A five mile long oil slick



Speaker:
00:10:16
CNN: is moving out to sea.



Speaker:
00:10:18
Amy Martin: Prince William Sound is a



Speaker:
00:10:19
Amy Martin: southern Alaska inlet dotted



Speaker:
00:10:21
Amy Martin: with islands and ringed with



Speaker:
00:10:22
Amy Martin: gorgeous forested mountains.



Speaker:
00:10:24
Amy Martin: Tucked into one of the many



Speaker:
00:10:26
Amy Martin: fjords there, is Valdez,



Speaker:
00:10:28
Amy Martin: a port town and the southern



Speaker:
00:10:29
Amy Martin: end of the Trans-Alaska



Speaker:
00:10:31
Amy Martin: Pipeline.



Speaker:
00:10:32
CNN: The supertanker bound for Long



Speaker:
00:10:33
CNN: Beach, California, ran aground



Speaker:
00:10:34
CNN: about 22 miles south of Valdez



Speaker:
00:10:37
CNN: early Friday morning after



Speaker:
00:10:38
CNN: loading a cargo of 1.25



Speaker:
00:10:40
CNN: million barrels from the Alaska



Speaker:
00:10:42
CNN: pipeline.



Speaker:
00:10:43
CNN: Oil poured into the sound at



Speaker:
00:10:44
CNN: the rate of 20,000 gallons an



Speaker:
00:10:46
CNN: hour for 12 hours.



Speaker:
00:10:48
CNN: Alyeska was supposed to have an



Speaker:
00:10:49
CNN: emergency response team at



Speaker:
00:10:51
CNN: its terminal in Valdez,



Speaker:
00:10:52
CNN: but eight years ago, the team



Speaker:
00:10:54
CNN: was disbanded.



Speaker:
00:10:55
CNN: Equipment to fight the spill



Speaker:
00:10:56
CNN: has to be flown in from as far



Speaker:
00:10:58
CNN: away as Texas and England.



Speaker:
00:10:59
CNN: The spill closed the port of



Speaker:
00:11:00
CNN: Valdez, which pumps 2



Speaker:
00:11:02
CNN: million barrels a day, one



Speaker:
00:11:04
CNN: fourth of America's domestic



Speaker:
00:11:05
CNN: crude output.



Speaker:
00:11:06
CNN: Exxon says it's using all



Speaker:
00:11:08
CNN: available resources, but



Speaker:
00:11:10
CNN: it argues the spill is simply



Speaker:
00:11:11
CNN: too big to surround with



Speaker:
00:11:13
CNN: booms and skim it up.



Speaker:
00:11:21
Amy Martin: The tanker ended up bleeding 11



Speaker:
00:11:23
Amy Martin: million gallons of oil into



Speaker:
00:11:24
Amy Martin: the sound.



Speaker:
00:11:25
Amy Martin: The oil rapidly spread through



Speaker:
00:11:27
Amy Martin: the water, eventually dirtying



Speaker:
00:11:29
Amy Martin: more than 1300 miles



Speaker:
00:11:31
Amy Martin: of shoreline.



Speaker:
00:11:32
Amy Martin: Hundreds of thousands of



Speaker:
00:11:33
Amy Martin: seabirds died, along with



Speaker:
00:11:34
Amy Martin: thousands of otters, hundreds



Speaker:
00:11:36
Amy Martin: of seals, dozens of species



Speaker:
00:11:38
Amy Martin: were impacted, including



Speaker:
00:11:39
Amy Martin: our own.



Speaker:
00:11:40
Amy Martin: Commercial fishing and



Speaker:
00:11:42
Amy Martin: recreation industries in the



Speaker:
00:11:43
Amy Martin: sound took a massive hit



Speaker:
00:11:45
Amy Martin: and families who depended on



Speaker:
00:11:46
Amy Martin: the animals in those waters for



Speaker:
00:11:48
Amy Martin: their food had to look



Speaker:
00:11:49
Amy Martin: elsewhere.



Speaker:
00:11:51
Amy Martin: In the wake of the spill, rates



Speaker:
00:11:52
Amy Martin: of anxiety, depression,



Speaker:
00:11:54
Amy Martin: substance abuse and domestic



Speaker:
00:11:56
Amy Martin: violence went up across the



Speaker:
00:11:57
Amy Martin: region.



Speaker:
00:11:58
Amy Martin: It was a collective trauma.



Speaker:
00:12:00
Amy Martin: Today, 30 years later,



Speaker:
00:12:02
Amy Martin: you can still find oil on some



Speaker:
00:12:04
Amy Martin: of those beaches.



Speaker:
00:12:05
Amy Martin: And many people say life there



Speaker:
00:12:07
Amy Martin: has never been the same.



Speaker:
00:12:08
CNN: The accident is providing a



Speaker:
00:12:10
CNN: rallying point for conservation



Speaker:
00:12:12
CNN: groups in the lower 48



Speaker:
00:12:13
CNN: opposed to oil drilling



Speaker:
00:12:15
CNN: in the Arctic National Wildlife



Speaker:
00:12:17
CNN: Refuge.



Speaker:
00:12:18
Amy Martin: Remember, all of this was just



Speaker:
00:12:19
Amy Martin: eight days after Senator



Speaker:
00:12:21
Amy Martin: Johnston's bill opening up ANWR



Speaker:
00:12:23
Amy Martin: for drilling had passed out



Speaker:
00:12:25
Amy Martin: of committee.



Speaker:
00:12:27
Senator Johnston: Yes. So I remember that the



Speaker:
00:12:28
Senator Johnston: timing was very bad.



Speaker:
00:12:31
Amy Martin: Did it give you pause at all?



Speaker:
00:12:33
Amy Martin: Did it make you think like,



Speaker:
00:12:35
Amy Martin: maybe this is something we



Speaker:
00:12:37
Amy Martin: should be a little bit more



Speaker:
00:12:38
Amy Martin: hesitant about?



Speaker:
00:12:39
Senator Johnston: No, they're unrelated.



Speaker:
00:12:41
Senator Johnston: I mean, the



Speaker:
00:12:44
Senator Johnston: use of a tanker



Speaker:
00:12:46
Senator Johnston: is just not related to the



Speaker:
00:12:48
Senator Johnston: danger of drilling in ANWR.



Speaker:
00:12:51
Amy Martin: Drilling in the refuge would



Speaker:
00:12:52
Amy Martin: happen on land, Senator



Speaker:
00:12:54
Amy Martin: Johnston says.



Speaker:
00:12:55
Amy Martin: The Valdez spill happened in



Speaker:
00:12:56
Amy Martin: the water.



Speaker:
00:12:57
Amy Martin: His ANWR bill was about oil



Speaker:
00:12:59
Amy Martin: production.



Speaker:
00:13:00
Amy Martin: This disaster was about oil



Speaker:
00:13:02
Amy Martin: transport.



Speaker:
00:13:03
Amy Martin: From his perspective, it's



Speaker:
00:13:04
Amy Martin: apples and oranges.



Speaker:
00:13:06
Amy Martin: But where Senator Johnston saw



Speaker:
00:13:08
Amy Martin: distinct, unrelated processes,



Speaker:
00:13:10
Amy Martin: many others saw an



Speaker:
00:13:11
Amy Martin: interconnected web.



Speaker:
00:13:13
Amy Martin: The oil that was leaving otters



Speaker:
00:13:15
Amy Martin: gasping for breath and seabirds



Speaker:
00:13:17
Amy Martin: unable to lift their wings



Speaker:
00:13:18
Amy Martin: came from Arctic Alaska.



Speaker:
00:13:21
Amy Martin: It was heartbreaking to watch,



Speaker:
00:13:22
Amy Martin: and it left few people in the



Speaker:
00:13:24
Amy Martin: mood to open up more wells



Speaker:
00:13:26
Amy Martin: in the same region.



Speaker:
00:13:27
Amy Martin: The bill died.



Speaker:
00:13:29
CNN: Alaska is assessing what



Speaker:
00:13:30
CNN: environmental impact the spill



Speaker:
00:13:32
CNN: could have on Prince William



Speaker:
00:13:33
CNN: Sound.



Speaker:
00:13:34
CNN: Ask what the accident will cost



Speaker:
00:13:36
CNN: the company.



Speaker:
00:13:36
CNN: One executive said it



Speaker:
00:13:38
CNN: won't be cheap.



Speaker:
00:13:40
CNN: Dan Lennox, CNN reporting.



Speaker:
00:13:48
Amy Martin: The Exxon Valdez disaster



Speaker:
00:13:50
Amy Martin: obviously didn't help the cause



Speaker:
00:13:51
Amy Martin: of the people trying to get



Speaker:
00:13:52
Amy Martin: drilling approved in the



Speaker:
00:13:53
Amy Martin: refuge.



Speaker:
00:13:54
Amy Martin: But as Senator Johnston



Speaker:
00:13:56
Amy Martin: indicated, it definitely didn't



Speaker:
00:13:57
Amy Martin: stop them either.



Speaker:
00:13:58
Amy Martin: He helped to lead another



Speaker:
00:13:59
Amy Martin: attempt at getting



Speaker:
00:14:00
Amy Martin: congressional approval to drill



Speaker:
00:14:02
Amy Martin: in 1991.



Speaker:
00:14:03
Amy Martin: That bill failed, but another



Speaker:
00:14:05
Amy Martin: in 1995 made



Speaker:
00:14:06
Amy Martin: it all the way to President



Speaker:
00:14:08
Amy Martin: Clinton's desk.



Speaker:
00:14:09
Amy Martin: He vetoed it.



Speaker:
00:14:10
Amy Martin: And it goes on and on



Speaker:
00:14:12
Amy Martin: like this through the years



Speaker:
00:14:13
Amy Martin: with lawmakers on both sides



Speaker:
00:14:15
Amy Martin: trying to resolve the



Speaker:
00:14:16
Amy Martin: uncertainty hanging over the



Speaker:
00:14:18
Amy Martin: 1002 area, some



Speaker:
00:14:20
Amy Martin: trying to make drilling legal.



Speaker:
00:14:21
Amy Martin: Others trying to permanently



Speaker:
00:14:23
Amy Martin: protect the coastal plain,



Speaker:
00:14:24
Amy Martin: until the Tax Cuts



Speaker:
00:14:26
Amy Martin: and Jobs Act passed in December



Speaker:
00:14:28
Amy Martin: 2017.



Speaker:
00:14:31
Amy Martin: So you can probably see



Speaker:
00:14:33
Amy Martin: why this piece of history



Speaker:
00:14:34
Amy Martin: caught my attention.



Speaker:
00:14:36
Amy Martin: We've got the Gwich'in



Speaker:
00:14:37
Amy Martin: gathering, the first



Speaker:
00:14:38
Amy Martin: congressional hearings on



Speaker:
00:14:39
Amy Martin: climate change, a yes vote



Speaker:
00:14:41
Amy Martin: on a bill to drill in the



Speaker:
00:14:42
Amy Martin: refuge and the Exxon



Speaker:
00:14:43
Amy Martin: Valdez oil spill all



Speaker:
00:14:45
Amy Martin: happening within one nine month



Speaker:
00:14:47
Amy Martin: period.



Speaker:
00:14:48
Amy Martin: You can mix and match these



Speaker:
00:14:49
Amy Martin: events in dozens of ways, and



Speaker:
00:14:51
Amy Martin: they always have something to



Speaker:
00:14:52
Amy Martin: say to each other.



Speaker:
00:14:53
Amy Martin: And to me, one of the most



Speaker:
00:14:54
Amy Martin: interesting tensions here is



Speaker:
00:14:56
Amy Martin: Senator Johnston's role as



Speaker:
00:14:57
Amy Martin: both an advocate for climate



Speaker:
00:14:59
Amy Martin: change mitigation and



Speaker:
00:15:01
Amy Martin: drilling in the refuge.



Speaker:
00:15:02
Amy Martin: For 40 years, he's remained



Speaker:
00:15:04
Amy Martin: steadfast in support for



Speaker:
00:15:05
Amy Martin: drilling, even as he's



Speaker:
00:15:07
Amy Martin: also supported policies



Speaker:
00:15:09
Amy Martin: to limit carbon emissions.



Speaker:
00:15:10
Senator Johnston: In my view, the



Speaker:
00:15:12
Senator Johnston: carbon tax is the best way



Speaker:
00:15:14
Senator Johnston: to do it, and



Speaker:
00:15:16
Senator Johnston: we need to promote renewables



Speaker:
00:15:18
Senator Johnston: as fast as we reasonably



Speaker:
00:15:20
Senator Johnston: can.



Speaker:
00:15:21
Amy Martin: If you're concerned about



Speaker:
00:15:22
Amy Martin: global warming,



Speaker:
00:15:24
Amy Martin: what makes it okay to drill



Speaker:
00:15:25
Amy Martin: for more oil?



Speaker:
00:15:26
Amy Martin: How do you square those two



Speaker:
00:15:28
Amy Martin: positions?



Speaker:
00:15:29
Senator Johnston: Well, first of all, people



Speaker:
00:15:31
Senator Johnston: confuse production



Speaker:
00:15:34
Senator Johnston: with consumption.



Speaker:
00:15:36
Senator Johnston: I mean, if you shut down



Speaker:
00:15:38
Senator Johnston: all drilling in the United



Speaker:
00:15:40
Senator Johnston: States, which



Speaker:
00:15:41
Senator Johnston: nobody thinks you could, but if



Speaker:
00:15:43
Senator Johnston: you cut it back,



Speaker:
00:15:44
Senator Johnston: you would simply import the



Speaker:
00:15:46
Senator Johnston: oil from



Speaker:
00:15:48
Senator Johnston: Saudi Arabia and from Russia.



Speaker:
00:15:50
Senator Johnston: And surely people



Speaker:
00:15:52
Senator Johnston: cannot think it is in the



Speaker:
00:15:53
Senator Johnston: interest of the United States



Speaker:
00:15:55
Senator Johnston: to import



Speaker:
00:15:57
Senator Johnston: from those countries as



Speaker:
00:15:59
Senator Johnston: opposed to producing



Speaker:
00:16:00
Senator Johnston: it with the 10 million jobs



Speaker:
00:16:02
Senator Johnston: that oil and gas produces



Speaker:
00:16:04
Senator Johnston: in the United States.



Speaker:
00:16:06
Amy Martin: To get inside Senator



Speaker:
00:16:07
Amy Martin: Johnston's head here, think



Speaker:
00:16:09
Amy Martin: about it like this.



Speaker:
00:16:10
Amy Martin: The oil we burn is going to



Speaker:
00:16:11
Amy Martin: warm the planet, whether it was



Speaker:
00:16:13
Amy Martin: drilled in Alaska or Siberia.



Speaker:
00:16:15
Amy Martin: So why not drill it in the U.S.



Speaker:
00:16:17
Amy Martin: where we have stronger



Speaker:
00:16:18
Amy Martin: environmental protections



Speaker:
00:16:20
Amy Martin: and we get to make some money



Speaker:
00:16:21
Amy Martin: off of it?



Speaker:
00:16:21
Senator Johnston: The amount you burn is



Speaker:
00:16:23
Senator Johnston: dependent on demand.



Speaker:
00:16:25
Senator Johnston: So it's demand that determines



Speaker:
00:16:27
Senator Johnston: the amount that is consumed.



Speaker:
00:16:30
Amy Martin: This argument sounds good at



Speaker:
00:16:32
Amy Martin: first blush.



Speaker:
00:16:33
Amy Martin: If you're worried about carbon



Speaker:
00:16:34
Amy Martin: emissions, reduce demand for



Speaker:
00:16:36
Amy Martin: oil. And until you do that,



Speaker:
00:16:38
Amy Martin: drill at home and make some



Speaker:
00:16:39
Amy Martin: money.



Speaker:
00:16:40
Amy Martin: But the thing is, the demand



Speaker:
00:16:42
Amy Martin: and supply of oil



Speaker:
00:16:44
Amy Martin: can't be separated from each



Speaker:
00:16:45
Amy Martin: other as neatly as Senator



Speaker:
00:16:47
Amy Martin: Johnston makes it sound.



Speaker:
00:16:48
Amy Martin: Oil isn't like ice cream,



Speaker:
00:16:50
Amy Martin: people can't simply decide not



Speaker:
00:16:52
Amy Martin: to use it anymore, just out of



Speaker:
00:16:53
Amy Martin: choice.



Speaker:
00:16:54
Amy Martin: If we could, solving global



Speaker:
00:16:56
Amy Martin: warming would be easy.



Speaker:
00:16:57
Amy Martin: But it's not because in



Speaker:
00:16:59
Amy Martin: the real world path that we're



Speaker:
00:17:01
Amy Martin: on. Fossil fuels are



Speaker:
00:17:02
Amy Martin: embedded into everything we do.



Speaker:
00:17:05
Amy Martin: We use them in the production



Speaker:
00:17:06
Amy Martin: and transport of our food.



Speaker:
00:17:07
Amy Martin: Our hospitals run on oil, and



Speaker:
00:17:09
Amy Martin: so do our militaries and banks



Speaker:
00:17:11
Amy Martin: and schools.



Speaker:
00:17:12
Amy Martin: If enough individuals make



Speaker:
00:17:13
Amy Martin: choices to reduce demand, it



Speaker:
00:17:15
Amy Martin: can certainly make an impact.



Speaker:
00:17:17
Amy Martin: But no one person or group



Speaker:
00:17:19
Amy Martin: or even one country has the



Speaker:
00:17:20
Amy Martin: power all by itself to



Speaker:
00:17:22
Amy Martin: completely eliminate demand for



Speaker:
00:17:24
Amy Martin: oil.



Speaker:
00:17:25
Amy Martin: That's a huge group effort



Speaker:
00:17:26
Amy Martin: which requires changes in laws



Speaker:
00:17:28
Amy Martin: and policy.



Speaker:
00:17:29
Amy Martin: And as the climate crisis



Speaker:
00:17:31
Amy Martin: worsens, that's exactly



Speaker:
00:17:32
Amy Martin: what many people are pushing



Speaker:
00:17:33
Amy Martin: for.



Speaker:
00:17:34
Amy Martin: But when citizens take that



Speaker:
00:17:36
Amy Martin: route and fight for the policy



Speaker:
00:17:37
Amy Martin: changes that would reduce the



Speaker:
00:17:39
Amy Martin: demand for fossil fuels,



Speaker:
00:17:41
Amy Martin: oil companies fight back.



Speaker:
00:17:42
Amy Martin: Hard, and they have massive



Speaker:
00:17:45
Amy Martin: resources at their disposal in



Speaker:
00:17:46
Amy Martin: that fight.



Speaker:
00:17:47
Amy Martin: The biggest oil companies have



Speaker:
00:17:49
Amy Martin: annual revenues far greater



Speaker:
00:17:51
Amy Martin: than the revenues of most



Speaker:
00:17:52
Amy Martin: countries.



Speaker:
00:17:53
Amy Martin: In 2017, for instance,



Speaker:
00:17:55
Amy Martin: Exxon brought in more money



Speaker:
00:17:56
Amy Martin: than the government of



Speaker:
00:17:57
Amy Martin: Switzerland or Saudi Arabia.



Speaker:
00:17:59
Amy Martin: BP and Shell made even



Speaker:
00:18:01
Amy Martin: more.



Speaker:
00:18:02
Amy Martin: And that money means power.



Speaker:
00:18:04
Amy Martin: It means access to politicians



Speaker:
00:18:06
Amy Martin: at the highest levels and



Speaker:
00:18:08
Amy Martin: influence over the laws that



Speaker:
00:18:09
Amy Martin: have kept our societies



Speaker:
00:18:11
Amy Martin: addicted to oil.



Speaker:
00:18:12
Amy Martin: Senator Johnston has to know



Speaker:
00:18:14
Amy Martin: about the money and lobbying



Speaker:
00:18:16
Amy Martin: muscle that oil companies apply



Speaker:
00:18:17
Amy Martin: towards stopping citizen



Speaker:
00:18:19
Amy Martin: efforts to get off of oil.



Speaker:
00:18:20
Amy Martin: Because in addition to being a



Speaker:
00:18:22
Amy Martin: U.S. senator, he served



Speaker:
00:18:24
Amy Martin: on the board of directors of a



Speaker:
00:18:25
Amy Martin: major oil company from 1997



Speaker:
00:18:27
Amy Martin: to 2004.



Speaker:
00:18:29
Senator Johnston: Yes, I was on the board of



Speaker:
00:18:31
Senator Johnston: Chevron.



Speaker:
00:18:32
Amy Martin: And do you think



Speaker:
00:18:33
Amy Martin: that that has influenced you to



Speaker:
00:18:35
Amy Martin: make you more open to drilling?



Speaker:
00:18:37
Senator Johnston: I, I've always



Speaker:
00:18:39
Senator Johnston: been open to the concept



Speaker:
00:18:41
Senator Johnston: of drilling, so it



Speaker:
00:18:43
Senator Johnston: did not really have any effect



Speaker:
00:18:45
Senator Johnston: on it. I support



Speaker:
00:18:47
Senator Johnston: production in the United



Speaker:
00:18:49
Senator Johnston: States, clean production,



Speaker:
00:18:51
Senator Johnston: and done in



Speaker:
00:18:53
Senator Johnston: an environmentally responsible



Speaker:
00:18:54
Senator Johnston: way.



Speaker:
00:18:55
Amy Martin: No matter how many ways I try



Speaker:
00:18:57
Amy Martin: to get inside this



Speaker:
00:18:58
Amy Martin: contradiction between Senator



Speaker:
00:19:00
Amy Martin: Johnston's pro-drilling,



Speaker:
00:19:02
Amy Martin: pro-climate action stance.



Speaker:
00:19:04
Amy Martin: His answer was the same.



Speaker:
00:19:05
Senator Johnston: I mean, look, it's



Speaker:
00:19:07
Senator Johnston: is very plain.



Speaker:
00:19:10
Senator Johnston: The amount of oil that is



Speaker:
00:19:12
Senator Johnston: produced in the United States



Speaker:
00:19:14
Senator Johnston: does not determine how much



Speaker:
00:19:16
Senator Johnston: is consumed



Speaker:
00:19:17
Senator Johnston: in the United States.



Speaker:
00:19:23
Amy Martin: That is a true statement.



Speaker:
00:19:24
Amy Martin: But given the whole context



Speaker:
00:19:26
Amy Martin: here, it's a pretty specious



Speaker:
00:19:27
Amy Martin: argument.



Speaker:
00:19:29
Amy Martin: Does solving the climate crisis



Speaker:
00:19:30
Amy Martin: require humans to radically



Speaker:
00:19:32
Amy Martin: reduce our demand for oil?



Speaker:
00:19:34
Amy Martin: Absolutely.



Speaker:
00:19:35
Amy Martin: Are oil companies simply



Speaker:
00:19:37
Amy Martin: neutral actors responding



Speaker:
00:19:39
Amy Martin: to that demand?



Speaker:
00:19:40
Amy Martin: Absolutely not.



Speaker:
00:19:41
Amy Martin: They're very involved in



Speaker:
00:19:43
Amy Martin: shaping that market.



Speaker:
00:19:44
Amy Martin: It comes down to this.



Speaker:
00:19:46
Amy Martin: You can't spend billions



Speaker:
00:19:48
Amy Martin: of dollars for decades



Speaker:
00:19:49
Amy Martin: blocking attempts to reduce



Speaker:
00:19:51
Amy Martin: demand and then simply



Speaker:
00:19:52
Amy Martin: shrug your shoulders and say,



Speaker:
00:19:54
Amy Martin: "hey, don't blame us.



Speaker:
00:19:56
Amy Martin: We're just giving the people



Speaker:
00:19:57
Amy Martin: what they want."



Speaker:
00:19:58
Amy Martin: Senator Johnston is definitely



Speaker:
00:20:00
Amy Martin: not alone in making this



Speaker:
00:20:02
Amy Martin: argument, though.



Speaker:
00:20:03
Amy Martin: And as we've already discussed,



Speaker:
00:20:04
Amy Martin: he's also not alone in holding



Speaker:
00:20:06
Amy Martin: his concerns about climate



Speaker:
00:20:07
Amy Martin: change in one hand and his



Speaker:
00:20:09
Amy Martin: desire to drill in the refuge



Speaker:
00:20:11
Amy Martin: in the other.



Speaker:
00:20:13
Lisa Murkowski: And I have suggested that



Speaker:
00:20:14
Lisa Murkowski: climate change is absolutely,



Speaker:
00:20:16
Lisa Murkowski: absolutely



Speaker:
00:20:18
Lisa Murkowski: one one lens



Speaker:
00:20:20
Lisa Murkowski: that we must look at.



Speaker:
00:20:21
Amy Martin: This is Senator Lisa Murkowski



Speaker:
00:20:23
Amy Martin: speaking from the stage of the



Speaker:
00:20:24
Amy Martin: Arctic Frontiers Conference in



Speaker:
00:20:26
Amy Martin: Norway in 2019.



Speaker:
00:20:28
Lisa Murkowski: But we must never forget the



Speaker:
00:20:29
Lisa Murkowski: other aspects



Speaker:
00:20:32
Lisa Murkowski: of the Arctic, the people who



Speaker:
00:20:33
Lisa Murkowski: live and work and raise their



Speaker:
00:20:34
Lisa Murkowski: families there,



Speaker:
00:20:36
Lisa Murkowski: the economic opportunities,



Speaker:
00:20:39
Lisa Murkowski: the environmental opportunities



Speaker:
00:20:41
Lisa Murkowski: and challenges.



Speaker:
00:20:42
Lisa Murkowski: It is, it is bigger than



Speaker:
00:20:43
Lisa Murkowski: just one issue.



Speaker:
00:20:47
Amy Martin: After two years of reporting on



Speaker:
00:20:49
Amy Martin: this region, I couldn't agree



Speaker:
00:20:50
Amy Martin: more that the Arctic is bigger



Speaker:
00:20:52
Amy Martin: than just one issue.



Speaker:
00:20:54
Amy Martin: But what confused me as I



Speaker:
00:20:55
Amy Martin: listened to this speech is that



Speaker:
00:20:57
Amy Martin: climate change is not



Speaker:
00:20:58
Amy Martin: just one issue.



Speaker:
00:21:00
Amy Martin: It directly affects all the



Speaker:
00:21:01
Amy Martin: things Senator Murkowski listed



Speaker:
00:21:03
Amy Martin: human welfare, economics,



Speaker:
00:21:05
Amy Martin: security and so much more.



Speaker:
00:21:08
Amy Martin: I had the opportunity to



Speaker:
00:21:09
Amy Martin: interview Senator Murkowski



Speaker:
00:21:11
Amy Martin: very briefly at that



Speaker:
00:21:12
Amy Martin: conference, and I asked her



Speaker:
00:21:13
Amy Martin: this.



Speaker:
00:21:15
Amy Martin: Can you make the best possible



Speaker:
00:21:16
Amy Martin: case for why we should drill



Speaker:
00:21:18
Amy Martin: in the Arctic National Wildlife



Speaker:
00:21:19
Amy Martin: Refuge, given that you



Speaker:
00:21:21
Amy Martin: are such a leader among



Speaker:
00:21:22
Amy Martin: Republicans in saying climate



Speaker:
00:21:23
Amy Martin: change is real and it's



Speaker:
00:21:24
Amy Martin: important and it's now?



Speaker:
00:21:25
Lisa Murkowski: Well, I think if you if you



Speaker:
00:21:27
Lisa Murkowski: take the perspective that



Speaker:
00:21:28
Lisa Murkowski: we should never utilize



Speaker:
00:21:31
Lisa Murkowski: our our fossil



Speaker:
00:21:33
Lisa Murkowski: fuels, you should buy into



Speaker:
00:21:34
Lisa Murkowski: the keep it in the ground



Speaker:
00:21:36
Lisa Murkowski: theory.



Speaker:
00:21:38
Lisa Murkowski: Help me out, help me



Speaker:
00:21:39
Lisa Murkowski: out here. How, how are you



Speaker:
00:21:41
Lisa Murkowski: going to get to



Speaker:
00:21:43
Lisa Murkowski: that that that



Speaker:
00:21:45
Lisa Murkowski: that place, that idyllic



Speaker:
00:21:47
Lisa Murkowski: place where we



Speaker:
00:21:48
Lisa Murkowski: will be able to



Speaker:
00:21:50
Lisa Murkowski: to power not



Speaker:
00:21:52
Lisa Murkowski: only this country, but power



Speaker:
00:21:53
Lisa Murkowski: the world off of our renewable



Speaker:
00:21:55
Lisa Murkowski: resources.



Speaker:
00:21:56
Lisa Murkowski: We cannot get there from



Speaker:
00:21:58
Lisa Murkowski: here today without a



Speaker:
00:21:59
Lisa Murkowski: transition.



Speaker:
00:22:00
Lisa Murkowski: We cannot do it.



Speaker:
00:22:02
Lisa Murkowski: And so I would rather



Speaker:
00:22:04
Lisa Murkowski: be a nation



Speaker:
00:22:06
Lisa Murkowski: who is providing a resource



Speaker:
00:22:09
Lisa Murkowski: in a manner and



Speaker:
00:22:11
Lisa Murkowski: in a process



Speaker:
00:22:14
Lisa Murkowski: that is more environmentally



Speaker:
00:22:16
Lisa Murkowski: regulated



Speaker:
00:22:18
Lisa Murkowski: than the other parts



Speaker:
00:22:20
Lisa Murkowski: of the world where



Speaker:
00:22:22
Lisa Murkowski: they are accessing the same



Speaker:
00:22:24
Lisa Murkowski: resource.



Speaker:
00:22:25
Lisa Murkowski: They are doing



Speaker:
00:22:27
Lisa Murkowski: so without the same level



Speaker:
00:22:29
Lisa Murkowski: of environmental standard and



Speaker:
00:22:31
Lisa Murkowski: safeguard and



Speaker:
00:22:32
Lisa Murkowski: in a way that



Speaker:
00:22:35
Lisa Murkowski: is is doubly



Speaker:
00:22:37
Lisa Murkowski: destructive, if you will.



Speaker:
00:22:39
Lisa Murkowski: So do we need



Speaker:
00:22:41
Lisa Murkowski: to to lead



Speaker:
00:22:43
Lisa Murkowski: in in the transition



Speaker:
00:22:45
Lisa Murkowski: that takes us



Speaker:
00:22:47
Lisa Murkowski: to new fuels, new sources



Speaker:
00:22:50
Lisa Murkowski: of energy?



Speaker:
00:22:51
Lisa Murkowski: Absolutely.



Speaker:
00:22:53
Lisa Murkowski: But in order to do so,



Speaker:
00:22:54
Lisa Murkowski: it requires,



Speaker:
00:22:56
Lisa Murkowski: it requires a level of



Speaker:
00:22:57
Lisa Murkowski: resource.



Speaker:
00:22:58
Lisa Murkowski: You can't make this happen



Speaker:
00:23:00
Lisa Murkowski: just by wishing it.



Speaker:
00:23:01
Lisa Murkowski: You just can't make it happen



Speaker:
00:23:03
Lisa Murkowski: by snapping your fingers.



Speaker:
00:23:04
Lisa Murkowski: So we have to have the



Speaker:
00:23:05
Lisa Murkowski: resources to



Speaker:
00:23:07
Lisa Murkowski: to allow for a transition.



Speaker:
00:23:09
Amy Martin: Our short conversation ended



Speaker:
00:23:11
Amy Martin: there. Senator Murkowski got



Speaker:
00:23:13
Amy Martin: whisked away to her next



Speaker:
00:23:14
Amy Martin: appointment, and I was left



Speaker:
00:23:16
Amy Martin: feeling unsatisfied



Speaker:
00:23:17
Amy Martin: because she answered a question



Speaker:
00:23:19
Amy Martin: I didn't ask.



Speaker:
00:23:21
Amy Martin: I didn't promote any theory or



Speaker:
00:23:22
Amy Martin: suggest that we could get



Speaker:
00:23:23
Amy Martin: through this transition without



Speaker:
00:23:25
Amy Martin: oil.



Speaker:
00:23:26
Amy Martin: I asked her to explain



Speaker:
00:23:27
Amy Martin: why we should drill in the



Speaker:
00:23:29
Amy Martin: Arctic National Wildlife



Speaker:
00:23:30
Amy Martin: Refuge.



Speaker:
00:23:31
Amy Martin: And those are very different



Speaker:
00:23:32
Amy Martin: questions, because



Speaker:
00:23:34
Amy Martin: even if we grant that we'll



Speaker:
00:23:35
Amy Martin: need oil and gas to power



Speaker:
00:23:37
Amy Martin: us through a transition toward



Speaker:
00:23:38
Amy Martin: renewables, it's not



Speaker:
00:23:40
Amy Martin: at all clear that we need to



Speaker:
00:23:41
Amy Martin: drill on the coastal plain.



Speaker:
00:23:44
Amy Martin: There's a lot of oil left in



Speaker:
00:23:45
Amy Martin: the fields that are already in



Speaker:
00:23:47
Amy Martin: production around the world,



Speaker:
00:23:48
Amy Martin: and even just in Alaska.



Speaker:
00:23:50
Amy Martin: Almost the entire North Slope



Speaker:
00:23:52
Amy Martin: is open for business.



Speaker:
00:23:53
Amy Martin: The refuge is one of the only



Speaker:
00:23:55
Amy Martin: areas where drilling has been



Speaker:
00:23:56
Amy Martin: restricted there.



Speaker:
00:23:58
Amy Martin: I followed up multiple times



Speaker:
00:24:00
Amy Martin: with Senator Murkowski's



Speaker:
00:24:01
Amy Martin: office, hoping to have the



Speaker:
00:24:02
Amy Martin: chance to dig in deeper with



Speaker:
00:24:03
Amy Martin: her, but I wasn't granted any



Speaker:
00:24:05
Amy Martin: additional interviews.



Speaker:
00:24:07
Amy Martin: I was able to pose some



Speaker:
00:24:09
Amy Martin: of those questions to a



Speaker:
00:24:10
Amy Martin: different Alaskan, though.



Speaker:
00:24:12
Kara Moriarty: It's not about getting the oil



Speaker:
00:24:13
Kara Moriarty: right now.



Speaker:
00:24:14
Kara Moriarty: It is about having



Speaker:
00:24:16
Kara Moriarty: the oil for the



Speaker:
00:24:18
Kara Moriarty: next generation to come.



Speaker:
00:24:21
Amy Martin: This is Kara Moriarty of the



Speaker:
00:24:22
Amy Martin: Alaska Oil and Gas Association.



Speaker:
00:24:24
Amy Martin: We'll hear more from her after



Speaker:
00:24:26
Amy Martin: this short break.



Speaker:
00:24:34
Matt Herlihy: Hi, my name's Matt Herlihy and



Speaker:
00:24:36
Matt Herlihy: I've been a Threshold listener



Speaker:
00:24:37
Matt Herlihy: and donor since season one came



Speaker:
00:24:39
Matt Herlihy: out in 2017.



Speaker:
00:24:40
Matt Herlihy: I was also one of the first



Speaker:
00:24:41
Matt Herlihy: volunteer board members of the



Speaker:
00:24:43
Matt Herlihy: nonprofit organization that



Speaker:
00:24:44
Matt Herlihy: makes Threshold.



Speaker:
00:24:46
Matt Herlihy: Over the past seven plus



Speaker:
00:24:47
Matt Herlihy: years, I've had this unique,



Speaker:
00:24:48
Matt Herlihy: firsthand look at just how much



Speaker:
00:24:50
Matt Herlihy: work it takes to make this kind



Speaker:
00:24:51
Matt Herlihy: of show. I mean, the time,



Speaker:
00:24:53
Matt Herlihy: the dedication, the



Speaker:
00:24:54
Matt Herlihy: determination that's required



Speaker:
00:24:55
Matt Herlihy: to tell these these in-depth



Speaker:
00:24:56
Matt Herlihy: stories that really make people



Speaker:
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Matt Herlihy: think and feel and give



Speaker:
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Matt Herlihy: people a sense of what it's



Speaker:
00:25:00
Matt Herlihy: like to really go to places



Speaker:
00:25:02
Matt Herlihy: where the stories are happening



Speaker:
00:25:03
Matt Herlihy: to to talk to the people who



Speaker:
00:25:04
Matt Herlihy: are part of them.



Speaker:
00:25:05
Matt Herlihy: It creates this rich, immersive



Speaker:
00:25:07
Matt Herlihy: listening experience and I



Speaker:
00:25:09
Matt Herlihy: think that kind of reporting,



Speaker:
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Matt Herlihy: this whole kind of show is not



Speaker:
00:25:11
Matt Herlihy: easy to make.



Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Matt Herlihy: you know, talk about slow,



Speaker:
00:25:16
Matt Herlihy: in-depth, thorough.



Speaker:
00:25:17
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Speaker:
00:25:18
Matt Herlihy: existing models for making a



Speaker:
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Matt Herlihy: podcast. So it's up to people



Speaker:
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Matt Herlihy: like us to really make sure



Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Matt Herlihy: I believe the Threshold is



Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Matt Herlihy: it. Threshold's Year end



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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Matt Herlihy: and give what you can.



Speaker:
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Speaker:
00:25:55
Amy Martin: Hi Threshold listeners.



Speaker:
00:25:56
Amy Martin: Do you ever find yourself



Speaker:
00:25:57
Amy Martin: wondering what businesses are



Speaker:
00:25:59
Amy Martin: doing and what more they should



Speaker:
00:26:00
Amy Martin: do to confront climate



Speaker:
00:26:02
Amy Martin: change?



Speaker:
00:26:03
Amy Martin: Then you should check out



Speaker:
00:26:04
Amy Martin: Climate Rising, the award



Speaker:
00:26:06
Amy Martin: winning podcast from Harvard



Speaker:
00:26:07
Amy Martin: Business School.



Speaker:
00:26:09
Amy Martin: Climate Rising gives you a



Speaker:
00:26:10
Amy Martin: behind the scenes look at how



Speaker:
00:26:12
Amy Martin: top business leaders are taking



Speaker:
00:26:14
Amy Martin: on the challenge of climate



Speaker:
00:26:15
Amy Martin: change.



Speaker:
00:26:16
Amy Martin: The show covers cutting edge



Speaker:
00:26:18
Amy Martin: solutions from leveraging



Speaker:
00:26:19
Amy Martin: A.I. and carbon markets



Speaker:
00:26:21
Amy Martin: to sharing stories that inspire



Speaker:
00:26:23
Amy Martin: climate action.



Speaker:
00:26:25
Amy Martin: Recent episodes feature



Speaker:
00:26:26
Amy Martin: insightful conversations with



Speaker:
00:26:28
Amy Martin: leaders like Netflix's first



Speaker:
00:26:30
Amy Martin: sustainability officer, Emma



Speaker:
00:26:31
Amy Martin: Steward, who discusses how the



Speaker:
00:26:33
Amy Martin: global entertainment giant



Speaker:
00:26:34
Amy Martin: uses its platform to promote



Speaker:
00:26:36
Amy Martin: climate awareness.



Speaker:
00:26:38
Amy Martin: We'll also hear from CNN's



Speaker:
00:26:39
Amy Martin: chief climate correspondent



Speaker:
00:26:41
Amy Martin: Bill Weir about the importance



Speaker:
00:26:43
Amy Martin: of integrating climate change



Speaker:
00:26:44
Amy Martin: into news coverage.



Speaker:
00:26:46
Amy Martin: Each episode dives deep into



Speaker:
00:26:48
Amy Martin: the challenges and



Speaker:
00:26:49
Amy Martin: opportunities that climate



Speaker:
00:26:51
Amy Martin: change presents to



Speaker:
00:26:52
Amy Martin: entrepreneurs and innovators.



Speaker:
00:26:54
Amy Martin: Listen to Climate Rising



Speaker:
00:26:56
Amy Martin: every other Wednesday on Apple



Speaker:
00:26:57
Amy Martin: Podcasts, Spotify



Speaker:
00:27:00
Amy Martin: or wherever you get your



Speaker:
00:27:01
Amy Martin: podcasts.



Speaker:
00:27:05
Dallas Taylor: I'm Dallas Taylor, host of



Speaker:
00:27:07
Dallas Taylor: 20,000Hz,



Speaker:
00:27:09
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Speaker:
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Dallas Taylor: untold stories behind the



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Speaker:
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Dallas Taylor: We've uncovered the incredible



Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
00:27:26
Dallas Taylor: We've investigated the bonding



Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
00:27:38
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Dallas Taylor: And we've revealed why a famous



Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
00:27:59
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
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Speaker:
00:28:03
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Speaker:
00:28:10
Kara Moriarty: I came to Alaska as a



Speaker:
00:28:11
Kara Moriarty: schoolteacher, so I



Speaker:
00:28:13
Kara Moriarty: taught school in a small



Speaker:
00:28:14
Kara Moriarty: Inupiaq village called Atqasuk,



Speaker:
00:28:16
Kara Moriarty: which is 50 miles south of



Speaker:
00:28:17
Kara Moriarty: Barrow.



Speaker:
00:28:18
Amy Martin: Welcome back to Threshold, I'm



Speaker:
00:28:19
Amy Martin: Amy Martin, and I'm talking



Speaker:
00:28:21
Amy Martin: with Kara Moriarty in



Speaker:
00:28:22
Amy Martin: Anchorage, Alaska.



Speaker:
00:28:24
Amy Martin: Kara grew up on a ranch in



Speaker:
00:28:25
Amy Martin: South Dakota, and she came to



Speaker:
00:28:27
Amy Martin: Alaska, planning to teach just



Speaker:
00:28:29
Amy Martin: for a year.



Speaker:
00:28:30
Amy Martin: After that year was up, she



Speaker:
00:28:31
Amy Martin: left to go work for South



Speaker:
00:28:32
Amy Martin: Dakota's congressman.



Speaker:
00:28:34
Amy Martin: But..



Speaker:
00:28:35
Kara Moriarty: Kept in touch with my Bush



Speaker:
00:28:36
Kara Moriarty: pilot that I'd met.



Speaker:
00:28:38
Kara Moriarty: And



Speaker:
00:28:40
Kara Moriarty: we just celebrated our 20th



Speaker:
00:28:41
Kara Moriarty: wedding anniversary last week.



Speaker:
00:28:43
Amy Martin: I had a feeling.



Speaker:
00:28:44
Kara Moriarty: Yeah. So, yeah, you know,



Speaker:
00:28:46
Kara Moriarty: I was the come for one year



Speaker:
00:28:47
Kara Moriarty: and then come back to marry



Speaker:
00:28:49
Kara Moriarty: your pilot and yeah, so



Speaker:
00:28:51
Kara Moriarty: kind of a little bit of a



Speaker:
00:28:52
Kara Moriarty: Alaska romance story, I guess,



Speaker:
00:28:54
Kara Moriarty: if you will, for your



Speaker:
00:28:55
Kara Moriarty: listeners.



Speaker:
00:28:56
Amy Martin: Kara is now the president of



Speaker:
00:28:57
Amy Martin: the Alaska Oil and Gas



Speaker:
00:28:58
Amy Martin: Association.



Speaker:
00:28:59
Kara Moriarty: And we're the professional



Speaker:
00:29:01
Kara Moriarty: trade association for the oil



Speaker:
00:29:02
Kara Moriarty: and gas industry in Alaska.



Speaker:
00:29:04
Kara Moriarty: So our job



Speaker:
00:29:06
Kara Moriarty: is to advocate on behalf



Speaker:
00:29:07
Kara Moriarty: of the entire industry to



Speaker:
00:29:09
Kara Moriarty: continue the long term



Speaker:
00:29:11
Kara Moriarty: viability of the industry for



Speaker:
00:29:12
Kara Moriarty: the state.



Speaker:
00:29:13
Amy Martin: I met Kara in her office



Speaker:
00:29:15
Amy Martin: in August of 2019.



Speaker:
00:29:16
Amy Martin: You'll hear some fans flipping



Speaker:
00:29:18
Amy Martin: on and off a bit as we talk.



Speaker:
00:29:20
Amy Martin: And she started by helping me



Speaker:
00:29:21
Amy Martin: understand all the steps



Speaker:
00:29:23
Amy Martin: that happen in between holding



Speaker:
00:29:25
Amy Martin: a lease sale and actually



Speaker:
00:29:26
Amy Martin: beginning to extract oil on the



Speaker:
00:29:28
Amy Martin: coastal plain.



Speaker:
00:29:29
Amy Martin: And just a reminder, a lease



Speaker:
00:29:30
Amy Martin: sale is an auction in



Speaker:
00:29:32
Amy Martin: which oil companies will bid



Speaker:
00:29:34
Amy Martin: for the right to drill in the



Speaker:
00:29:35
Amy Martin: refuge.



Speaker:
00:29:36
Kara Moriarty: You have a lease sale.



Speaker:
00:29:38
Kara Moriarty: Well, first of all, we know the



Speaker:
00:29:39
Kara Moriarty: lease will be litigated because



Speaker:
00:29:40
Kara Moriarty: as a tool in the environmental



Speaker:
00:29:42
Kara Moriarty: activist toolbox that is



Speaker:
00:29:44
Kara Moriarty: often used.



Speaker:
00:29:46
Kara Moriarty: So we know it will be



Speaker:
00:29:47
Kara Moriarty: litigated. So then you get



Speaker:
00:29:48
Kara Moriarty: through the litigation 2 to 3



Speaker:
00:29:49
Kara Moriarty: years later and they put



Speaker:
00:29:50
Kara Moriarty: together their exploration



Speaker:
00:29:52
Kara Moriarty: plans.



Speaker:
00:29:53
Kara Moriarty: Those will probably be



Speaker:
00:29:54
Kara Moriarty: litigated, but then it'll take



Speaker:
00:29:55
Kara Moriarty: 4 to 5 years most likely



Speaker:
00:29:57
Kara Moriarty: to explore because we have



Speaker:
00:29:59
Kara Moriarty: a very limited exploration



Speaker:
00:30:01
Kara Moriarty: season.



Speaker:
00:30:02
Amy Martin: The exploration process



Speaker:
00:30:03
Amy Martin: involves things like seismic



Speaker:
00:30:05
Amy Martin: testing and other ways of



Speaker:
00:30:06
Amy Martin: figuring out where the oil is.



Speaker:
00:30:08
Amy Martin: And on the North Slope,



Speaker:
00:30:09
Amy Martin: companies can only explore



Speaker:
00:30:11
Amy Martin: when it's cold enough to make



Speaker:
00:30:12
Amy Martin: ice roads because those roads



Speaker:
00:30:14
Amy Martin: protect the tundra from heavy



Speaker:
00:30:15
Amy Martin: equipment.



Speaker:
00:30:17
Amy Martin: But as the Arctic is freezing



Speaker:
00:30:18
Amy Martin: later in the fall and thawing



Speaker:
00:30:20
Amy Martin: sooner in the spring, it's



Speaker:
00:30:22
Amy Martin: getting harder to keep ice



Speaker:
00:30:23
Amy Martin: roads frozen.



Speaker:
00:30:25
Amy Martin: Companies have found



Speaker:
00:30:25
Amy Martin: workarounds like pre-packing



Speaker:
00:30:27
Amy Martin: the tundra with snow to keep



Speaker:
00:30:28
Amy Martin: the exploration window open



Speaker:
00:30:30
Amy Martin: as long as possible.



Speaker:
00:30:32
Amy Martin: But in the long run, this is



Speaker:
00:30:33
Amy Martin: one of the great ironies of oil



Speaker:
00:30:35
Amy Martin: development in the far north.



Speaker:
00:30:37
Amy Martin: The infrastructure for Arctic



Speaker:
00:30:38
Amy Martin: drilling is built to work on



Speaker:
00:30:40
Amy Martin: snow and ice, but because



Speaker:
00:30:41
Amy Martin: of the burning of the very



Speaker:
00:30:43
Amy Martin: fossil fuels being pulled out



Speaker:
00:30:44
Amy Martin: of the ground, that snow



Speaker:
00:30:46
Amy Martin: and ice is melting.



Speaker:
00:30:48
Amy Martin: There's a whole lot more to be



Speaker:
00:30:49
Amy Martin: said on that topic.



Speaker:
00:30:50
Amy Martin: But let's get back to Kara's



Speaker:
00:30:52
Amy Martin: timeline here.



Speaker:
00:30:53
Kara Moriarty: So exploration will take 4



Speaker:
00:30:55
Kara Moriarty: or 5 years.



Speaker:
00:30:56
Kara Moriarty: And then assuming all that



Speaker:
00:30:57
Kara Moriarty: works out, then you've got



Speaker:
00:30:59
Kara Moriarty: a 5 to 7 year development



Speaker:
00:31:01
Kara Moriarty: plan before you reach



Speaker:
00:31:02
Kara Moriarty: production.



Speaker:
00:31:03
Kara Moriarty: So when it's all said and done,



Speaker:
00:31:05
Kara Moriarty: it's at least, conservative,



Speaker:
00:31:07
Kara Moriarty: a dozen years.



Speaker:
00:31:09
Amy Martin: The Trump administration has



Speaker:
00:31:11
Amy Martin: pledged that the first lease



Speaker:
00:31:12
Amy Martin: sale will be held this winter.



Speaker:
00:31:14
Amy Martin: And as Kara predicted,



Speaker:
00:31:16
Amy Martin: one lawsuit has already been



Speaker:
00:31:17
Amy Martin: filed by a group of



Speaker:
00:31:18
Amy Martin: conservation organizations and



Speaker:
00:31:20
Amy Martin: the Gwich'in Steering



Speaker:
00:31:21
Amy Martin: Committee.



Speaker:
00:31:22
Amy Martin: They say the government is



Speaker:
00:31:23
Amy Martin: withholding information on the



Speaker:
00:31:25
Amy Martin: process of tribal consultation



Speaker:
00:31:27
Amy Martin: and environmental review



Speaker:
00:31:28
Amy Martin: required by law before



Speaker:
00:31:30
Amy Martin: leasing can begin.



Speaker:
00:31:32
Amy Martin: And this will likely be the



Speaker:
00:31:33
Amy Martin: first of many lawsuits.



Speaker:
00:31:35
Amy Martin: Several organizations have



Speaker:
00:31:37
Amy Martin: claimed that the environmental



Speaker:
00:31:38
Amy Martin: review process was rushed



Speaker:
00:31:40
Amy Martin: and doesn't provide sufficient



Speaker:
00:31:41
Amy Martin: analysis of the true costs



Speaker:
00:31:43
Amy Martin: of drilling to the land, water,



Speaker:
00:31:45
Amy Martin: air and animals on the coastal



Speaker:
00:31:46
Amy Martin: plain.



Speaker:
00:31:48
Amy Martin: We'll be following all of this



Speaker:
00:31:49
Amy Martin: in coming months.



Speaker:
00:31:51
Amy Martin: But if things do go roughly



Speaker:
00:31:53
Amy Martin: according to the timeline Kara



Speaker:
00:31:55
Amy Martin: laid out, drilling might



Speaker:
00:31:56
Amy Martin: begin on the coastal plain in



Speaker:
00:31:58
Amy Martin: the early 2030s.



Speaker:
00:32:00
Amy Martin: And as we talk through



Speaker:
00:32:01
Amy Martin: different issues surrounding



Speaker:
00:32:02
Amy Martin: oil development in the refuge,



Speaker:
00:32:04
Amy Martin: Kara brought up the economic



Speaker:
00:32:05
Amy Martin: benefits that the oil industry



Speaker:
00:32:07
Amy Martin: has brought to the North Slope



Speaker:
00:32:08
Amy Martin: and her opinion that the risks



Speaker:
00:32:10
Amy Martin: to the Porcupine caribou herd



Speaker:
00:32:12
Amy Martin: are overblown.



Speaker:
00:32:13
Amy Martin: But I think the most



Speaker:
00:32:15
Amy Martin: interesting part of our



Speaker:
00:32:16
Amy Martin: conversation was when I asked



Speaker:
00:32:17
Amy Martin: her to make the positive case



Speaker:
00:32:19
Amy Martin: for drilling, not why



Speaker:
00:32:20
Amy Martin: environmentalists are wrong,



Speaker:
00:32:22
Amy Martin: but why oil companies are



Speaker:
00:32:24
Amy Martin: right because most



Speaker:
00:32:25
Amy Martin: of the refuge is federal land



Speaker:
00:32:27
Amy Martin: owned by all U.S.



Speaker:
00:32:28
Amy Martin: citizens.



Speaker:
00:32:29
Amy Martin: So it seems like it's incumbent



Speaker:
00:32:31
Amy Martin: on the industry to make the



Speaker:
00:32:32
Amy Martin: case for why they should be



Speaker:
00:32:34
Amy Martin: allowed to use public land



Speaker:
00:32:36
Amy Martin: for their private gain.



Speaker:
00:32:38
Amy Martin: And the public so far is



Speaker:
00:32:39
Amy Martin: not convinced, although a



Speaker:
00:32:41
Amy Martin: majority of Alaskans support



Speaker:
00:32:43
Amy Martin: drilling in the refuge,



Speaker:
00:32:44
Amy Martin: according to one recent poll,



Speaker:
00:32:46
Amy Martin: two thirds of registered voters



Speaker:
00:32:47
Amy Martin: in the country overall oppose



Speaker:
00:32:49
Amy Martin: it.



Speaker:
00:32:50
Amy Martin: So I wanted to hear Kara's best



Speaker:
00:32:52
Amy Martin: argument for why those people



Speaker:
00:32:53
Amy Martin: should change their minds.



Speaker:
00:32:55
Amy Martin: Why should Americans say yes



Speaker:
00:32:57
Amy Martin: to oil development in the



Speaker:
00:32:58
Amy Martin: refuge?



Speaker:
00:32:59
Kara Moriarty: There's going to continue to be



Speaker:
00:33:01
Kara Moriarty: a demand for



Speaker:
00:33:03
Kara Moriarty: oil and gas.



Speaker:
00:33:04
Kara Moriarty: It's still going to be the



Speaker:
00:33:05
Kara Moriarty: majority



Speaker:
00:33:07
Kara Moriarty: fuel source that supplies



Speaker:
00:33:09
Kara Moriarty: the globe's energy



Speaker:
00:33:11
Kara Moriarty: needs for the next



Speaker:
00:33:13
Kara Moriarty: 30 to 40 years.



Speaker:
00:33:14
Kara Moriarty: So why wouldn't we



Speaker:
00:33:15
Kara Moriarty: then, as a country,



Speaker:
00:33:18
Kara Moriarty: want to develop



Speaker:
00:33:19
Kara Moriarty: in our backyard where



Speaker:
00:33:21
Kara Moriarty: we know we have the strictest



Speaker:
00:33:23
Kara Moriarty: environmental standards?



Speaker:
00:33:25
Kara Moriarty: If you look at all the world



Speaker:
00:33:26
Kara Moriarty: estimates for the next 30



Speaker:
00:33:28
Kara Moriarty: years, the demand for



Speaker:
00:33:30
Kara Moriarty: oil does not go away.



Speaker:
00:33:32
Amy Martin: So one thing that I think



Speaker:
00:33:33
Amy Martin: I know some people would say



Speaker:
00:33:34
Amy Martin: hearing you is,



Speaker:
00:33:36
Amy Martin: you know, you said why wouldn't



Speaker:
00:33:37
Amy Martin: we develop it?



Speaker:
00:33:38
Amy Martin: I think some people would say



Speaker:
00:33:39
Amy Martin: because there's lots and lots



Speaker:
00:33:40
Amy Martin: of oil available in the world



Speaker:
00:33:42
Amy Martin: already in places that are



Speaker:
00:33:44
Amy Martin: more developed or,



Speaker:
00:33:46
Amy Martin: you know, already have impact.



Speaker:
00:33:47
Amy Martin: But this is a place that is



Speaker:
00:33:49
Amy Martin: pretty special in the world.



Speaker:
00:33:51
Amy Martin: Why not, even if we have



Speaker:
00:33:52
Amy Martin: to develop it someday,



Speaker:
00:33:54
Amy Martin: you know, 50 years down the



Speaker:
00:33:55
Amy Martin: road and we're having some kind



Speaker:
00:33:57
Amy Martin: of massive crisis, why



Speaker:
00:33:58
Amy Martin: not save it for then instead



Speaker:
00:34:00
Amy Martin: of, going there



Speaker:
00:34:02
Amy Martin: now when it is really



Speaker:
00:34:04
Amy Martin: it's a special habitat that has



Speaker:
00:34:05
Amy Martin: a lot of wildlife in it?



Speaker:
00:34:07
Kara Moriarty: Well, a couple of things to



Speaker:
00:34:08
Kara Moriarty: that.



Speaker:
00:34:09
Kara Moriarty: We have been saving it.



Speaker:
00:34:10
Kara Moriarty: We've been saving it for 40



Speaker:
00:34:12
Kara Moriarty: years already.



Speaker:
00:34:13
Amy Martin: Like Senator Johnston, Kara



Speaker:
00:34:15
Amy Martin: says the demand for oil is



Speaker:
00:34:17
Amy Martin: the justification for drilling



Speaker:
00:34:18
Amy Martin: it.



Speaker:
00:34:19
Amy Martin: And she says because oil



Speaker:
00:34:21
Amy Martin: production takes a lot of lead



Speaker:
00:34:22
Amy Martin: time, you have to stay ahead



Speaker:
00:34:24
Amy Martin: of that demand curve by



Speaker:
00:34:25
Amy Martin: constantly opening new fields.



Speaker:
00:34:28
Kara Moriarty: Oil basins, they peak and they decline.



Speaker:
00:34:30
Kara Moriarty: Is just the nature of the



Speaker:
00:34:31
Kara Moriarty: business.



Speaker:
00:34:32
Kara Moriarty: And so you have to constantly



Speaker:
00:34:33
Kara Moriarty: be replacing that



Speaker:
00:34:35
Kara Moriarty: decline and increasing



Speaker:
00:34:37
Kara Moriarty: it and the potential.



Speaker:
00:34:39
Kara Moriarty: So really, this



Speaker:
00:34:40
Kara Moriarty: oil is going to be available



Speaker:
00:34:42
Kara Moriarty: in 2032.



Speaker:
00:34:45
Kara Moriarty: It's not about getting the oil



Speaker:
00:34:46
Kara Moriarty: right now.



Speaker:
00:34:47
Kara Moriarty: It is about having



Speaker:
00:34:49
Kara Moriarty: the oil for the



Speaker:
00:34:51
Kara Moriarty: next generation to come.



Speaker:
00:34:53
Amy Martin: So I think another



Speaker:
00:34:54
Amy Martin: big argument you just actually



Speaker:
00:34:56
Amy Martin: touched on, it would just be



Speaker:
00:34:57
Amy Martin: climate change that a lot of



Speaker:
00:34:58
Amy Martin: people would say, why, why



Speaker:
00:35:00
Amy Martin: should we invest resources



Speaker:
00:35:02
Amy Martin: and basically set up



Speaker:
00:35:03
Amy Martin: the momentum toward, getting



Speaker:
00:35:06
Amy Martin: more fossil fuels out of the



Speaker:
00:35:07
Amy Martin: ground when they're warming the



Speaker:
00:35:08
Amy Martin: planet?



Speaker:
00:35:09
Amy Martin: And what's your response to



Speaker:
00:35:10
Amy Martin: that?



Speaker:
00:35:11
Kara Moriarty: Well, I think it's very



Speaker:
00:35:13
Kara Moriarty: unpractical



Speaker:
00:35:15
Kara Moriarty: to say that we're going to be



Speaker:
00:35:16
Kara Moriarty: without the use of fossil fuels



Speaker:
00:35:19
Kara Moriarty: in the next three decades



Speaker:
00:35:21
Kara Moriarty: because there's



Speaker:
00:35:23
Kara Moriarty: not enough alternative



Speaker:
00:35:25
Kara Moriarty: energy available.



Speaker:
00:35:26
Kara Moriarty: And it certainly would not be



Speaker:
00:35:28
Kara Moriarty: affordable for



Speaker:
00:35:30
Kara Moriarty: consumers.



Speaker:
00:35:32
Amy Martin: It's true that there's



Speaker:
00:35:33
Amy Martin: currently not enough



Speaker:
00:35:34
Amy Martin: alternative energy to meet



Speaker:
00:35:36
Amy Martin: demand.



Speaker:
00:35:37
Amy Martin: There are a host of reasons for



Speaker:
00:35:38
Amy Martin: that, transforming a



Speaker:
00:35:39
Amy Martin: fundamental sector of the



Speaker:
00:35:40
Amy Martin: economy isn't simple,



Speaker:
00:35:42
Amy Martin: but renewables are growing



Speaker:
00:35:44
Amy Martin: fast, and one of the major



Speaker:
00:35:45
Amy Martin: reasons why they haven't grown



Speaker:
00:35:47
Amy Martin: faster is the oil



Speaker:
00:35:48
Amy Martin: industry itself.



Speaker:
00:35:50
Amy Martin: There are indirect ways that



Speaker:
00:35:51
Amy Martin: the oil industry has



Speaker:
00:35:52
Amy Martin: constrained the growth of



Speaker:
00:35:53
Amy Martin: alternatives, things like tax



Speaker:
00:35:55
Amy Martin: subsidies and crowding out



Speaker:
00:35:57
Amy Martin: of competitors.



Speaker:
00:35:58
Amy Martin: But oil companies have also



Speaker:
00:35:59
Amy Martin: taken direct actions



Speaker:
00:36:01
Amy Martin: that have blocked the growth of



Speaker:
00:36:02
Amy Martin: renewables, including



Speaker:
00:36:04
Amy Martin: spending millions of dollars



Speaker:
00:36:06
Amy Martin: on campaigns to suppress



Speaker:
00:36:07
Amy Martin: climate science and confuse



Speaker:
00:36:09
Amy Martin: the public about the dangers of



Speaker:
00:36:11
Amy Martin: global warming.



Speaker:
00:36:13
Amy Martin: Lately, the big oil companies



Speaker:
00:36:14
Amy Martin: have been changing their tune



Speaker:
00:36:15
Amy Martin: on that, but what they say



Speaker:
00:36:17
Amy Martin: is sometimes very different



Speaker:
00:36:19
Amy Martin: from what they do.



Speaker:
00:36:20
Amy Martin: As just one example, we



Speaker:
00:36:22
Amy Martin: can look at BP, which is a



Speaker:
00:36:24
Amy Martin: member of Kara's trade



Speaker:
00:36:25
Amy Martin: organization.



Speaker:
00:36:26
Amy Martin: They publicly say they support



Speaker:
00:36:28
Amy Martin: putting a price on carbon



Speaker:
00:36:30
Amy Martin: to help reduce emissions, but



Speaker:
00:36:33
Amy Martin: in 2018,



Speaker:
00:36:34
Amy Martin: BP spent more than $10



Speaker:
00:36:36
Amy Martin: million to help defeat



Speaker:
00:36:38
Amy Martin: a carbon pricing ballot



Speaker:
00:36:39
Amy Martin: initiative in the state of



Speaker:
00:36:40
Amy Martin: Washington.



Speaker:
00:36:42
Amy Martin: Even so, Kara says,



Speaker:
00:36:43
Amy Martin: oil companies are helping to



Speaker:
00:36:45
Amy Martin: develop new, greener



Speaker:
00:36:46
Amy Martin: technologies.



Speaker:
00:36:48
Kara Moriarty: And the reality is,



Speaker:
00:36:49
Kara Moriarty: my very member companies



Speaker:
00:36:51
Kara Moriarty: globally are the



Speaker:
00:36:53
Kara Moriarty: companies investing



Speaker:
00:36:55
Kara Moriarty: in the technology



Speaker:
00:36:57
Kara Moriarty: to help with carbon capture,



Speaker:
00:36:59
Kara Moriarty: with switching from



Speaker:
00:37:01
Kara Moriarty: gas stations to electrical



Speaker:
00:37:03
Kara Moriarty: stations for cars.



Speaker:
00:37:04
Kara Moriarty: We're not bad



Speaker:
00:37:06
Kara Moriarty: and we're not bad for wanting



Speaker:
00:37:08
Kara Moriarty: to continue to meet



Speaker:
00:37:09
Kara Moriarty: the global demand



Speaker:
00:37:11
Kara Moriarty: for the use of oil and gas.



Speaker:
00:37:13
Kara Moriarty: And so, you know, as



Speaker:
00:37:15
Kara Moriarty: we continue to develop, we



Speaker:
00:37:16
Kara Moriarty: know that we're going to



Speaker:
00:37:17
Kara Moriarty: continue to improve.



Speaker:
00:37:22
Amy Martin: In 2018, the world's



Speaker:
00:37:24
Amy Martin: biggest oil and gas companies



Speaker:
00:37:26
Amy Martin: together spent around 1%



Speaker:
00:37:28
Amy Martin: of their budgets on clean



Speaker:
00:37:29
Amy Martin: energy.



Speaker:
00:37:30
Amy Martin: That's not nothing,



Speaker:
00:37:32
Amy Martin: but many citizens say the



Speaker:
00:37:33
Amy Martin: oil industry is still doing a



Speaker:
00:37:35
Amy Martin: lot more to hurt the climate



Speaker:
00:37:36
Amy Martin: than to help it.



Speaker:
00:37:38
Amy Martin: So they've been using a new



Speaker:
00:37:39
Amy Martin: tool pressuring banks



Speaker:
00:37:41
Amy Martin: not to invest in oil



Speaker:
00:37:42
Amy Martin: development.



Speaker:
00:37:43
Amy Martin: And that pressure has yielded



Speaker:
00:37:45
Amy Martin: some results.



Speaker:
00:37:46
Amy Martin: The European Investment Bank



Speaker:
00:37:48
Amy Martin: has pledged to end financing



Speaker:
00:37:49
Amy Martin: for all fossil fuel projects



Speaker:
00:37:51
Amy Martin: after 2021.



Speaker:
00:37:53
Amy Martin: And several other international



Speaker:
00:37:54
Amy Martin: banks have specifically called



Speaker:
00:37:56
Amy Martin: out the Arctic National



Speaker:
00:37:57
Amy Martin: Wildlife Refuge as a place



Speaker:
00:37:59
Amy Martin: where they will not invest in



Speaker:
00:38:00
Amy Martin: oil and gas.



Speaker:
00:38:02
Amy Martin: As we've been putting this



Speaker:
00:38:03
Amy Martin: episode together, the first



Speaker:
00:38:04
Amy Martin: U.S. bank joined the club:



Speaker:
00:38:06
Amy Martin: Goldman Sachs announced they



Speaker:
00:38:08
Amy Martin: will not finance any new



Speaker:
00:38:09
Amy Martin: drilling or oil exploration



Speaker:
00:38:11
Amy Martin: in the Arctic.



Speaker:
00:38:14
Amy Martin: It's unclear if or how much



Speaker:
00:38:16
Amy Martin: all of this might affect the



Speaker:
00:38:18
Amy Martin: outcome of a lease sale.



Speaker:
00:38:19
Amy Martin: But the public opposition,



Speaker:
00:38:21
Amy Martin: combined with the relatively



Speaker:
00:38:22
Amy Martin: low price of oil right now and



Speaker:
00:38:24
Amy Martin: the high cost of extraction in



Speaker:
00:38:25
Amy Martin: this remote area make



Speaker:
00:38:27
Amy Martin: drilling in the refuge a



Speaker:
00:38:28
Amy Martin: riskier proposition than most.



Speaker:
00:38:31
Amy Martin: But there could be



Speaker:
00:38:33
Amy Martin: a less obvious price some



Speaker:
00:38:35
Amy Martin: companies hope to claim.



Speaker:
00:38:36
Kara Moriarty: Honestly, there's probably



Speaker:
00:38:38
Kara Moriarty: a lot more gas in the coastal



Speaker:
00:38:40
Kara Moriarty: plain than there is oil.



Speaker:
00:38:42
Kara Moriarty: I mean, we have hundreds of



Speaker:
00:38:43
Kara Moriarty: trillions of cubic feet of



Speaker:
00:38:44
Kara Moriarty: natural gas on the North Slope.



Speaker:
00:38:47
Amy Martin: If you look globally, natural



Speaker:
00:38:48
Amy Martin: gas is the real story



Speaker:
00:38:50
Amy Martin: of energy development in the



Speaker:
00:38:51
Amy Martin: Arctic.



Speaker:
00:38:52
Amy Martin: The gas industry is booming in



Speaker:
00:38:54
Amy Martin: the Russian north, and like



Speaker:
00:38:55
Amy Martin: Kara said, the North Slope of



Speaker:
00:38:57
Amy Martin: Alaska has enormous natural



Speaker:
00:38:59
Amy Martin: gas reserves, too.



Speaker:
00:39:01
Amy Martin: The problem in Alaska, though,



Speaker:
00:39:02
Amy Martin: is transportation.



Speaker:
00:39:04
Amy Martin: Attempts to build a gas



Speaker:
00:39:06
Amy Martin: pipeline similar to the oil



Speaker:
00:39:07
Amy Martin: pipeline that cuts through the



Speaker:
00:39:09
Amy Martin: state have gone nowhere,



Speaker:
00:39:10
Amy Martin: so far.



Speaker:
00:39:12
Amy Martin: But oil and gas executives



Speaker:
00:39:13
Amy Martin: must be casting their eyes



Speaker:
00:39:15
Amy Martin: longingly on all that untapped



Speaker:
00:39:17
Amy Martin: gas in the refuge.



Speaker:
00:39:19
Amy Martin: And even though both the oil



Speaker:
00:39:20
Amy Martin: and gas markets are considered



Speaker:
00:39:22
Amy Martin: to be in a state of oversupply



Speaker:
00:39:24
Amy Martin: right now, Kara says



Speaker:
00:39:26
Amy Martin: we have to keep opening up



Speaker:
00:39:27
Amy Martin: new areas for drilling.



Speaker:
00:39:29
Kara Moriarty: What we have today will



Speaker:
00:39:31
Kara Moriarty: not be enough to supply



Speaker:
00:39:34
Kara Moriarty: the next 30 to 40 years.



Speaker:
00:39:36
Kara Moriarty: So we have to



Speaker:
00:39:38
Kara Moriarty: add resources



Speaker:
00:39:39
Kara Moriarty: as we continue this



Speaker:
00:39:41
Kara Moriarty: transition to



Speaker:
00:39:43
Kara Moriarty: other sources of energy.



Speaker:
00:39:45
Amy Martin: Even with oil at $56



Speaker:
00:39:47
Amy Martin: a barrel?



Speaker:
00:39:48
Kara Moriarty: Who knows what oil price is



Speaker:
00:39:49
Kara Moriarty: going to be?



Speaker:
00:39:50
Kara Moriarty: I mean, the good...



Speaker:
00:39:52
Amy Martin: And the discoveries in Texas-



Speaker:
00:39:53
Kara Moriarty: Right. I mean, but but the



Speaker:
00:39:55
Kara Moriarty: discoveries in Texas are



Speaker:
00:39:56
Kara Moriarty: still not going to help meet



Speaker:
00:39:58
Kara Moriarty: the demand 30 to



Speaker:
00:40:00
Kara Moriarty: 40 years from now.



Speaker:
00:40:01
Kara Moriarty: So in the end, you kind



Speaker:
00:40:03
Kara Moriarty: of need it all.



Speaker:
00:40:04
Kara Moriarty: You have to be able



Speaker:
00:40:05
Kara Moriarty: to to add to



Speaker:
00:40:08
Kara Moriarty: the reserves, as I



Speaker:
00:40:10
Kara Moriarty: tried to explain.



Speaker:
00:40:12
Amy Martin: I think, though, that the



Speaker:
00:40:13
Amy Martin: feeling that, you know, in the



Speaker:
00:40:14
Amy Martin: end we are going to need it



Speaker:
00:40:16
Amy Martin: all. I mean, that's kind of the



Speaker:
00:40:17
Amy Martin: crux of it, is that there are a



Speaker:
00:40:18
Amy Martin: lot of people saying like, no,



Speaker:
00:40:19
Amy Martin: actually, the truth of it is we



Speaker:
00:40:21
Amy Martin: have to stop before we get it



Speaker:
00:40:22
Amy Martin: all. Or that's not practical.



Speaker:
00:40:22
Kara Moriarty: But, but, but, but, but,



Speaker:
00:40:24
Kara Moriarty: but, but but my answer



Speaker:
00:40:26
Kara Moriarty: my question back to them is,



Speaker:
00:40:27
Kara Moriarty: what are you going to do?



Speaker:
00:40:28
Kara Moriarty: I mean, if you stop and



Speaker:
00:40:30
Kara Moriarty: you know that the alternative



Speaker:
00:40:31
Kara Moriarty: energy isn't going to be there,



Speaker:
00:40:33
Kara Moriarty: what do you do in the meantime?



Speaker:
00:40:35
Kara Moriarty: Do you go back to,



Speaker:
00:40:37
Kara Moriarty: you know, candlesticks?



Speaker:
00:40:38
Kara Moriarty: I mean, I don't think so.



Speaker:
00:40:44
Amy Martin: Kara is doing the same thing



Speaker:
00:40:45
Amy Martin: Senators Johnston and Murkowski



Speaker:
00:40:47
Amy Martin: did when I asked them about



Speaker:
00:40:48
Amy Martin: this tension between drilling



Speaker:
00:40:50
Amy Martin: in the refuge and mitigating



Speaker:
00:40:51
Amy Martin: climate change.



Speaker:
00:40:53
Amy Martin: They all responded with some



Speaker:
00:40:54
Amy Martin: version of, "well, we can't



Speaker:
00:40:56
Amy Martin: just shut down all drilling



Speaker:
00:40:57
Amy Martin: immediately." But



Speaker:
00:40:59
Amy Martin: that dodges the question.



Speaker:
00:41:01
Amy Martin: Almost everyone recognizes



Speaker:
00:41:03
Amy Martin: a transition is necessary



Speaker:
00:41:04
Amy Martin: here, that we can't just stop



Speaker:
00:41:06
Amy Martin: all use of fossil fuels



Speaker:
00:41:07
Amy Martin: tomorrow and go back to



Speaker:
00:41:09
Amy Martin: candlesticks, as Kara says.



Speaker:
00:41:11
Amy Martin: Where the real debate lies



Speaker:
00:41:13
Amy Martin: is over when and how



Speaker:
00:41:15
Amy Martin: and how fast we're going



Speaker:
00:41:16
Amy Martin: to make the transition.



Speaker:
00:41:18
Amy Martin: That's where the question



Speaker:
00:41:19
Amy Martin: emerges about opening up new



Speaker:
00:41:21
Amy Martin: fields, especially in pristine



Speaker:
00:41:23
Amy Martin: wilderness areas, and



Speaker:
00:41:24
Amy Martin: especially in a context in



Speaker:
00:41:26
Amy Martin: which there's ample evidence



Speaker:
00:41:27
Amy Martin: that the oil industry is



Speaker:
00:41:29
Amy Martin: slowing the transition down.



Speaker:
00:41:31
Amy Martin: But Kara says oil companies



Speaker:
00:41:33
Amy Martin: are being villainized for



Speaker:
00:41:35
Amy Martin: providing reliable, affordable



Speaker:
00:41:37
Amy Martin: power.



Speaker:
00:41:40
Kara Moriarty: I mean, I think that's the



Speaker:
00:41:41
Kara Moriarty: other thing that gets



Speaker:
00:41:41
Kara Moriarty: overlooked.



Speaker:
00:41:42
Kara Moriarty: The oil and gas industry



Speaker:
00:41:44
Kara Moriarty: has unlocked potential



Speaker:
00:41:47
Kara Moriarty: and quality of life



Speaker:
00:41:49
Kara Moriarty: for people across the globe.



Speaker:
00:41:52
Kara Moriarty: Once people have a reliable



Speaker:
00:41:53
Kara Moriarty: source of power, once



Speaker:
00:41:55
Kara Moriarty: they have a reliable source of



Speaker:
00:41:57
Kara Moriarty: heat, especially one that they



Speaker:
00:41:58
Kara Moriarty: can afford,



Speaker:
00:42:00
Kara Moriarty: it opens up a whole new



Speaker:
00:42:03
Kara Moriarty: opportunities for them.



Speaker:
00:42:05
Kara Moriarty: And that and the data is there



Speaker:
00:42:06
Kara Moriarty: to back that up.



Speaker:
00:42:08
Amy Martin: I don't think anybody's



Speaker:
00:42:09
Amy Martin: questioning that



Speaker:
00:42:10
Amy Martin: when you have access



Speaker:
00:42:13
Amy Martin: to affordable



Speaker:
00:42:14
Amy Martin: power, it benefits



Speaker:
00:42:16
Amy Martin: individual humans and benefits



Speaker:
00:42:19
Amy Martin: communities. It can even



Speaker:
00:42:20
Amy Martin: benefit an entire state or



Speaker:
00:42:21
Amy Martin: country.



Speaker:
00:42:22
Amy Martin: But at the same time, that



Speaker:
00:42:24
Amy Martin: has a collective impact



Speaker:
00:42:26
Amy Martin: that is detrimental to all of



Speaker:
00:42:27
Amy Martin: us in the long run.



Speaker:
00:42:29
Amy Martin: And so I don't think anybody



Speaker:
00:42:30
Amy Martin: has to be a villain to



Speaker:
00:42:31
Amy Martin: have it be like, that's a,



Speaker:
00:42:33
Amy Martin: that's a problem.



Speaker:
00:42:34
Amy Martin: You know, how do we solve that?



Speaker:
00:42:35
Amy Martin: That like, yeah, this community



Speaker:
00:42:37
Amy Martin: can do well or our country can



Speaker:
00:42:39
Amy Martin: do well.



Speaker:
00:42:40
Amy Martin: But all of us, as



Speaker:
00:42:41
Amy Martin: humans and living things on



Speaker:
00:42:43
Amy Martin: this planet are eventually



Speaker:
00:42:44
Amy Martin: going to we're getting tanked



Speaker:
00:42:45
Amy Martin: by the, the damage to



Speaker:
00:42:47
Amy Martin: the climate. And



Speaker:
00:42:49
Amy Martin: I'm just curious, like, how do



Speaker:
00:42:50
Amy Martin: you make sense of that?



Speaker:
00:42:53
Kara Moriarty: Well, I think that.



Speaker:
00:42:56
Kara Moriarty: Yes, we're all concerned about



Speaker:
00:42:59
Kara Moriarty: making sure that our planet



Speaker:
00:43:01
Kara Moriarty: is here for



Speaker:
00:43:03
Kara Moriarty: more than generations to



Speaker:
00:43:04
Kara Moriarty: come.



Speaker:
00:43:06
Kara Moriarty: But how do



Speaker:
00:43:07
Kara Moriarty: we utilize our



Speaker:
00:43:09
Kara Moriarty: knowhow and the



Speaker:
00:43:11
Kara Moriarty: technologies that we have



Speaker:
00:43:13
Kara Moriarty: and that we continue to improve



Speaker:
00:43:15
Kara Moriarty: upon?



Speaker:
00:43:16
Kara Moriarty: Because if we're not,



Speaker:
00:43:17
Kara Moriarty: we're not operating the same



Speaker:
00:43:19
Kara Moriarty: way. I mean, we're learning



Speaker:
00:43:21
Kara Moriarty: how to be better.



Speaker:
00:43:23
Kara Moriarty: But the only way you be better



Speaker:
00:43:25
Kara Moriarty: is by continuing to do it.



Speaker:
00:43:27
Kara Moriarty: You don't just stop because



Speaker:
00:43:29
Kara Moriarty: there is a demand for that



Speaker:
00:43:30
Kara Moriarty: product.



Speaker:
00:43:35
Amy Martin: At the beginning of this



Speaker:
00:43:36
Amy Martin: episode, we were talking about



Speaker:
00:43:38
Amy Martin: path dependance,



Speaker:
00:43:39
Amy Martin: how the choices we've made in



Speaker:
00:43:41
Amy Martin: the past shape what we think



Speaker:
00:43:43
Amy Martin: is possible today.



Speaker:
00:43:45
Amy Martin: But our human pathways



Speaker:
00:43:46
Amy Martin: all happen here on



Speaker:
00:43:48
Amy Martin: planet Earth.



Speaker:
00:43:49
Amy Martin: They're part of natural systems



Speaker:
00:43:51
Amy Martin: that have their own momentum,



Speaker:
00:43:52
Amy Martin: their own trajectories that



Speaker:
00:43:54
Amy Martin: operate according to their own



Speaker:
00:43:56
Amy Martin: rules.



Speaker:
00:43:57
Amy Martin: And one of those rules says



Speaker:
00:43:58
Amy Martin: if you burn a whole lot of



Speaker:
00:44:00
Amy Martin: carbon based material very



Speaker:
00:44:01
Amy Martin: quickly, you knock the



Speaker:
00:44:03
Amy Martin: systems regulating the climate



Speaker:
00:44:05
Amy Martin: out of whack.



Speaker:
00:44:06
Amy Martin: And it can take a very long



Speaker:
00:44:08
Amy Martin: time for those systems to find



Speaker:
00:44:09
Amy Martin: a new equilibrium.



Speaker:
00:44:11
Amy Martin: This is the path we're



Speaker:
00:44:13
Amy Martin: co-creating with our planet.



Speaker:
00:44:15
Amy Martin: And the longer we stay on it,



Speaker:
00:44:17
Amy Martin: the harder it is to change



Speaker:
00:44:19
Amy Martin: course.



Speaker:
00:44:20
Victoria Herrmann: It's hard to bring



Speaker:
00:44:22
Victoria Herrmann: everyone into the same



Speaker:
00:44:23
Victoria Herrmann: conversation.



Speaker:
00:44:26
Amy Martin: Again, Victoria Herrmann of the



Speaker:
00:44:27
Amy Martin: Arctic Institute.



Speaker:
00:44:28
Victoria Herrmann: Well, here we're talking



Speaker:
00:44:30
Victoria Herrmann: about ANWR and about drilling



Speaker:
00:44:31
Victoria Herrmann: and climate change, it's



Speaker:
00:44:33
Victoria Herrmann: important to know that most



Speaker:
00:44:35
Victoria Herrmann: conversations that happen about



Speaker:
00:44:37
Victoria Herrmann: the Arctic in Washington,



Speaker:
00:44:38
Victoria Herrmann: D.C., are focused on national



Speaker:
00:44:40
Victoria Herrmann: security and are not about



Speaker:
00:44:42
Victoria Herrmann: energy or climate



Speaker:
00:44:44
Victoria Herrmann: or human welfare.



Speaker:
00:44:45
Victoria Herrmann: They are about icebreakers



Speaker:
00:44:47
Victoria Herrmann: and military spending



Speaker:
00:44:48
Victoria Herrmann: and our relationship to



Speaker:
00:44:50
Victoria Herrmann: Russia.



Speaker:
00:44:51
Victoria Herrmann: I try to continuously



Speaker:
00:44:53
Victoria Herrmann: bring up climate change and



Speaker:
00:44:54
Victoria Herrmann: energy development, but that



Speaker:
00:44:56
Victoria Herrmann: is not the norm for



Speaker:
00:44:58
Victoria Herrmann: a D.C.



Speaker:
00:44:59
Victoria Herrmann: conversation about the Arctic.



Speaker:
00:45:01
Amy Martin: And in addition to security, a



Speaker:
00:45:03
Amy Martin: lot of conversation about the



Speaker:
00:45:04
Amy Martin: Arctic these days revolves



Speaker:
00:45:06
Amy Martin: around commerce.



Speaker:
00:45:07
Amy Martin: Addressing the Arctic Council



Speaker:
00:45:09
Amy Martin: last spring, Secretary



Speaker:
00:45:11
Amy Martin: of State Mike Pompeo talked



Speaker:
00:45:12
Amy Martin: glowingly about the oil,



Speaker:
00:45:14
Amy Martin: gas and minerals waiting



Speaker:
00:45:15
Amy Martin: to be drilled in mind in the



Speaker:
00:45:17
Amy Martin: far north.



Speaker:
00:45:18
Amy Martin: A few years earlier, the former



Speaker:
00:45:20
Amy Martin: president of Iceland did the



Speaker:
00:45:21
Amy Martin: same and referred to the region



Speaker:
00:45:23
Amy Martin: as a new Africa.



Speaker:
00:45:26
Amy Martin: This is another one of the



Speaker:
00:45:27
Amy Martin: well-worn paths that shape



Speaker:
00:45:29
Amy Martin: our thinking about the Arctic



Speaker:
00:45:30
Amy Martin: and the refuge.



Speaker:
00:45:32
Amy Martin: For centuries, white people



Speaker:
00:45:33
Amy Martin: have been imagining the far



Speaker:
00:45:35
Amy Martin: north as an empty space



Speaker:
00:45:36
Amy Martin: in which they have brave



Speaker:
00:45:37
Amy Martin: adventures while extracting



Speaker:
00:45:39
Amy Martin: valuable resources.



Speaker:
00:45:42
ARCO Video: The men of Prudhoe Bay



Speaker:
00:45:44
ARCO Video: are heirs to a tradition of



Speaker:
00:45:45
ARCO Video: Arctic exploration begun



Speaker:
00:45:47
ARCO Video: in the last century by Perry



Speaker:
00:45:48
ARCO Video: and Frobisher.



Speaker:
00:45:50
ARCO Video: Searching for oil may seem



Speaker:
00:45:52
ARCO Video: less romantic than racing to



Speaker:
00:45:53
ARCO Video: the pole by dog sled.



Speaker:
00:45:56
ARCO Video: But the potential for mankind



Speaker:
00:45:58
ARCO Video: is no less impressive.



Speaker:
00:46:01
Amy Martin: This is some tape from that old



Speaker:
00:46:03
Amy Martin: film I played you back in our



Speaker:
00:46:04
Amy Martin: first episode.



Speaker:
00:46:05
Amy Martin: It was made in 1975



Speaker:
00:46:07
Amy Martin: by The Atlantic Richfield



Speaker:
00:46:08
Amy Martin: Company as they were preparing



Speaker:
00:46:10
Amy Martin: to start drilling at the



Speaker:
00:46:11
Amy Martin: Prudhoe Bay oil field.



Speaker:
00:46:13
Amy Martin: And I just have to revisit it



Speaker:
00:46:14
Amy Martin: for a minute because I find it



Speaker:
00:46:15
Amy Martin: to be such a revealing artifact



Speaker:
00:46:17
Amy Martin: from that time and place.



Speaker:
00:46:20
Amy Martin: Just check this out.



Speaker:
00:46:23
ARCO Video: Once this vast land



Speaker:
00:46:24
ARCO Video: belonged to the wild animals,



Speaker:
00:46:27
ARCO Video: today, there's still room for



Speaker:
00:46:28
ARCO Video: the caribou to graze peacefully



Speaker:
00:46:30
ARCO Video: in a largely unspoiled



Speaker:
00:46:32
ARCO Video: environment.



Speaker:
00:46:35
ARCO Video: Now, the Arctic wilderness



Speaker:
00:46:36
ARCO Video: must be shared with a strange



Speaker:
00:46:38
ARCO Video: new breed that migrates



Speaker:
00:46:40
ARCO Video: in trucks and airplanes.



Speaker:
00:46:42
ARCO Video: Protecting the animals' freedom



Speaker:
00:46:44
ARCO Video: through strict company



Speaker:
00:46:45
ARCO Video: regulation, man



Speaker:
00:46:47
ARCO Video: claims part of their land



Speaker:
00:46:49
ARCO Video: to help ensure his own



Speaker:
00:46:50
ARCO Video: survival.



Speaker:
00:46:52
Amy Martin: This short clip contains so



Speaker:
00:46:54
Amy Martin: much information about the



Speaker:
00:46:55
Amy Martin: mindset at work here.



Speaker:
00:46:57
Amy Martin: We're told this land once



Speaker:
00:46:58
Amy Martin: belonged to the animals, not



Speaker:
00:47:00
Amy Martin: to the indigenous people of



Speaker:
00:47:01
Amy Martin: this region, and now it



Speaker:
00:47:03
Amy Martin: must be shared with this



Speaker:
00:47:04
Amy Martin: strange new breed,



Speaker:
00:47:06
Amy Martin: these men arriving to claim



Speaker:
00:47:08
Amy Martin: part of the North for their own



Speaker:
00:47:09
Amy Martin: survival.



Speaker:
00:47:10
Amy Martin: Of course, Alaska native people



Speaker:
00:47:12
Amy Martin: have been using the land,



Speaker:
00:47:14
Amy Martin: water, plants and animals of



Speaker:
00:47:15
Amy Martin: this region to ensure their



Speaker:
00:47:17
Amy Martin: own survival for millennia.



Speaker:
00:47:19
Amy Martin: But with a few lines and a



Speaker:
00:47:20
Amy Martin: sentimental soundtrack, all



Speaker:
00:47:22
Amy Martin: of that is rendered invisible.



Speaker:
00:47:24
Amy Martin: ARCO gives a passing mention of



Speaker:
00:47:26
Amy Martin: providing new jobs for eskimos



Speaker:
00:47:28
Amy Martin: and then quickly returns to the



Speaker:
00:47:30
Amy Martin: main objective, documenting



Speaker:
00:47:32
Amy Martin: their own heroic battle



Speaker:
00:47:33
Amy Martin: with the natural world.



Speaker:
00:47:36
ARCO Video: As the storm rages,



Speaker:
00:47:39
ARCO Video: nature reasserts her power



Speaker:
00:47:41
ARCO Video: over man.



Speaker:
00:47:43
ARCO Video: But on the land, man



Speaker:
00:47:45
ARCO Video: retains control.



Speaker:
00:47:47
Amy Martin: Nature is the enemy.



Speaker:
00:47:49
Amy Martin: The other, often referred



Speaker:
00:47:51
Amy Martin: to with a feminine pronoun.



Speaker:
00:47:53
ARCO Video: Pitting himself against nature,



Speaker:
00:47:55
ARCO Video: man has beaten the odds.



Speaker:
00:47:57
Amy Martin: We might not speak quite as



Speaker:
00:47:58
Amy Martin: plainly about it these days,



Speaker:
00:48:00
Amy Martin: but this conquering mindset



Speaker:
00:48:01
Amy Martin: is still very much at work



Speaker:
00:48:03
Amy Martin: in the Arctic and often



Speaker:
00:48:05
Amy Martin: conquering places or



Speaker:
00:48:07
Amy Martin: people begins with devaluing



Speaker:
00:48:09
Amy Martin: them.



Speaker:
00:48:10
Amy Martin: This leads me in to something



Speaker:
00:48:12
Amy Martin: that I found over and over



Speaker:
00:48:13
Amy Martin: as I dug into the story of the



Speaker:
00:48:15
Amy Martin: refuge.



Speaker:
00:48:16
Amy Martin: Throughout the history of this



Speaker:
00:48:17
Amy Martin: controversy, people have tried



Speaker:
00:48:19
Amy Martin: to portray this area as



Speaker:
00:48:20
Amy Martin: unworthy of protection



Speaker:
00:48:22
Amy Martin: because it's not pretty enough.



Speaker:
00:48:24
Senator Johnston: ANWR is



Speaker:
00:48:26
Senator Johnston: the most misrepresented place



Speaker:
00:48:28
Senator Johnston: I think I've ever seen.



Speaker:
00:48:30
Amy Martin: Again, this is Senator J.



Speaker:
00:48:31
Amy Martin: Bennett Johnston.



Speaker:
00:48:33
Senator Johnston: People to speak of it as



Speaker:
00:48:35
Senator Johnston: if it's a beautiful area.



Speaker:
00:48:36
Senator Johnston: They've conjured up this view



Speaker:
00:48:38
Senator Johnston: of this beautiful Serengeti,



Speaker:
00:48:40
Senator Johnston: which it is really not.



Speaker:
00:48:42
Senator Johnston: It is really just



Speaker:
00:48:44
Senator Johnston: the coastal plain and just a



Speaker:
00:48:46
Senator Johnston: tundra.



Speaker:
00:48:48
Amy Martin: Senator Johnston and many



Speaker:
00:48:50
Amy Martin: other pro-oil people I spoke



Speaker:
00:48:51
Amy Martin: with claimed that conservation



Speaker:
00:48:53
Amy Martin: groups put mountains in



Speaker:
00:48:55
Amy Martin: pictures of the drilling area



Speaker:
00:48:56
Amy Martin: to make it look more appealing.



Speaker:
00:48:58
Amy Martin: Kara Moriarty said this too.



Speaker:
00:49:00
Kara Moriarty: You don't even see mountains



Speaker:
00:49:02
Kara Moriarty: from the 1002 area.



Speaker:
00:49:04
Amy Martin: That's actually not true.



Speaker:
00:49:06
Amy Martin: The mountains are indeed



Speaker:
00:49:07
Amy Martin: visible from the coastal plain,



Speaker:
00:49:09
Amy Martin: and Senator Johnston is also



Speaker:
00:49:10
Amy Martin: wrong when he says the 1002



Speaker:
00:49:12
Amy Martin: area doesn't support many



Speaker:
00:49:13
Amy Martin: animals.



Speaker:
00:49:14
Amy Martin: The northern tundra plays an



Speaker:
00:49:15
Amy Martin: important role in the life



Speaker:
00:49:17
Amy Martin: cycle of dozens of species,



Speaker:
00:49:19
Amy Martin: but more than the factual



Speaker:
00:49:20
Amy Martin: mistakes, the real question



Speaker:
00:49:22
Amy Martin: here is when did the tundra



Speaker:
00:49:24
Amy Martin: become inherently less valuable



Speaker:
00:49:25
Amy Martin: than a mountain range?



Speaker:
00:49:27
Amy Martin: Like, who decided that?



Speaker:
00:49:29
Amy Martin: Yes, Tundras tend to be flat



Speaker:
00:49:31
Amy Martin: and open.



Speaker:
00:49:32
Amy Martin: So do prairies.



Speaker:
00:49:34
Amy Martin: Does that mean they're worthless?



Speaker:
00:49:36
Amy Martin: It's very ironic that some



Speaker:
00:49:38
Amy Martin: of the politicians claiming to



Speaker:
00:49:39
Amy Martin: support Inupiaq people



Speaker:
00:49:41
Amy Martin: have no problem describing



Speaker:
00:49:42
Amy Martin: their homelands in disparaging



Speaker:
00:49:44
Amy Martin: terms.



Speaker:
00:49:45
Amy Martin: For instance, former Alaska



Speaker:
00:49:47
Amy Martin: Senator Ted Stevens said this



Speaker:
00:49:49
Amy Martin: during a 2005 congressional



Speaker:
00:49:50
Amy Martin: debate over drilling in the



Speaker:
00:49:51
Amy Martin: refuge.



Speaker:
00:49:52
Amy Martin: Quote, "I defy



Speaker:
00:49:54
Amy Martin: anyone to say that that is a



Speaker:
00:49:55
Amy Martin: beautiful place that has to be



Speaker:
00:49:57
Amy Martin: preserved for the future.



Speaker:
00:49:59
Amy Martin: It is a barren wasteland.



Speaker:
00:50:00
Amy Martin: Frozen wasteland."



Speaker:
00:50:02
Amy Martin: End quote.



Speaker:
00:50:04
Amy Martin: This tactic of devaluing a



Speaker:
00:50:06
Amy Martin: place in an attempt to persuade



Speaker:
00:50:07
Amy Martin: others not to protect it



Speaker:
00:50:09
Amy Martin: has a long, disturbing history.



Speaker:
00:50:12
Amy Martin: This is how nuclear waste ends



Speaker:
00:50:13
Amy Martin: up on Native American



Speaker:
00:50:14
Amy Martin: reservations, and the tops of



Speaker:
00:50:16
Amy Martin: mountains get chopped off in



Speaker:
00:50:17
Amy Martin: Appalachia.



Speaker:
00:50:19
Amy Martin: We're told these places are



Speaker:
00:50:20
Amy Martin: ugly or unimportant,



Speaker:
00:50:22
Amy Martin: so it doesn't matter if we



Speaker:
00:50:23
Amy Martin: trash them.



Speaker:
00:50:24
Amy Martin: And one thing these supposed



Speaker:
00:50:26
Amy Martin: sacrifice zones almost



Speaker:
00:50:28
Amy Martin: always have in common is



Speaker:
00:50:29
Amy Martin: that the people who live in and



Speaker:
00:50:31
Amy Martin: around them don't have very



Speaker:
00:50:33
Amy Martin: much money or power.



Speaker:
00:50:46
Amy Martin: How, how



Speaker:
00:50:47
Amy Martin: worried are you about oil



Speaker:
00:50:48
Amy Martin: development?



Speaker:
00:50:51
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: I don't want to live in an



Speaker:
00:50:52
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: oilfield.



Speaker:
00:50:55
Amy Martin: This is



Speaker:
00:50:57
Amy Martin: Vebjorn Aishana Reitan. We met



Speaker:
00:50:57
Amy Martin: him in our first episode, he's



Speaker:
00:50:59
Amy Martin: from Kaktovik, Alaska.



Speaker:
00:51:01
Amy Martin: I'm sitting next to a Vebjorn



Speaker:
00:51:02
Amy Martin: in his boat, heading out from



Speaker:
00:51:03
Amy Martin: the village to visit the



Speaker:
00:51:04
Amy Martin: coastal plain.



Speaker:
00:51:06
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's not



Speaker:
00:51:08
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: that important to me



Speaker:
00:51:11
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: to



Speaker:
00:51:13
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: have money, I guess.



Speaker:
00:51:16
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: And I don't think we should,



Speaker:
00:51:19
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: we should sacrifice



Speaker:
00:51:20
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: our land that makes



Speaker:
00:51:22
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: us who we are.



Speaker:
00:51:24
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Just so



Speaker:
00:51:26
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: we can have a stake



Speaker:
00:51:28
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: in an industry that's



Speaker:
00:51:30
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: ultimately going to lose, I



Speaker:
00:51:31
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: think.



Speaker:
00:51:34
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: I don't think we should



Speaker:
00:51:35
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: sacrifice what we are



Speaker:
00:51:36
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: just so they can



Speaker:
00:51:38
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: drill oil.



Speaker:
00:51:42
Amy Martin: Vebjorn lands the boat and



Speaker:
00:51:44
Amy Martin: we walk around a little bit on



Speaker:
00:51:45
Amy Martin: the tundra.



Speaker:
00:51:46
Amy Martin: It's wet and green with



Speaker:
00:51:48
Amy Martin: little creeks cutting down to



Speaker:
00:51:49
Amy Martin: the beach.



Speaker:
00:51:50
Amy Martin: A hawk hovers in the distance,



Speaker:
00:51:52
Amy Martin: flapping its wings and staring



Speaker:
00:51:54
Amy Martin: into the grass with a hunter's



Speaker:
00:51:55
Amy Martin: intense focus.



Speaker:
00:51:57
Amy Martin: Ted Stevens said this land



Speaker:
00:51:59
Amy Martin: had no beauty at all,



Speaker:
00:52:01
Amy Martin: but to Vebjorn and many other



Speaker:
00:52:03
Amy Martin: people who live here, people



Speaker:
00:52:04
Amy Martin: on both sides of the drilling



Speaker:
00:52:06
Amy Martin: debate, this place is



Speaker:
00:52:07
Amy Martin: precious.



Speaker:
00:52:09
Amy Martin: And Vebjorn says that if we



Speaker:
00:52:10
Amy Martin: can't see that and feel



Speaker:
00:52:12
Amy Martin: it, maybe that says



Speaker:
00:52:14
Amy Martin: more about us than it does



Speaker:
00:52:16
Amy Martin: about this place.



Speaker:
00:52:18
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: I think people should get out



Speaker:
00:52:19
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: more.



Speaker:
00:52:20
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's good for people to be out



Speaker:
00:52:21
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: on the land.



Speaker:
00:52:24
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: I think it's important to



Speaker:
00:52:27
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: live outside your house,



Speaker:
00:52:29
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: but just be locked up inside.



Speaker:
00:52:31
Amy Martin: Yeah.



Speaker:
00:52:35
Amy Martin: Being with Vebjorn on the



Speaker:
00:52:37
Amy Martin: coastal plain of the refuge



Speaker:
00:52:38
Amy Martin: made me think of a poem by



Speaker:
00:52:40
Amy Martin: Wendell Berry.



Speaker:
00:52:41
Amy Martin: It's called How to Be a Poet.



Speaker:
00:52:43
Amy Martin: And there are these three lines



Speaker:
00:52:44
Amy Martin: in the middle.



Speaker:
00:52:45
Amy Martin: They go like this.



Speaker:
00:52:48
Amy Martin: "There are no un sacred places.



Speaker:
00:52:50
Amy Martin: There are only sacred places



Speaker:
00:52:52
Amy Martin: and desecrated places."



Speaker:
00:52:56
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Yeah.



Speaker:
00:52:57
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Everybody.



Speaker:
00:52:59
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Everybody should get out more.



Speaker:
00:53:01
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Enjoy the nature.



Speaker:
00:53:04
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Then this becomes more



Speaker:
00:53:07
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: close.,Close to you.



Speaker:
00:53:08
Amy Martin: Yeah.



Speaker:
00:53:11
Amy Martin: Yeah.



Speaker:
00:53:15
Amy Martin: The conflict over drilling in



Speaker:
00:53:17
Amy Martin: the refuge is so binary.



Speaker:
00:53:19
Amy Martin: For or against, pro



Speaker:
00:53:21
Amy Martin: oil or anti oil.



Speaker:
00:53:23
Amy Martin: If one side wins, the other



Speaker:
00:53:24
Amy Martin: loses.



Speaker:
00:53:26
Amy Martin: It's been a long, loud,



Speaker:
00:53:28
Amy Martin: angry fight.



Speaker:
00:53:29
Amy Martin: And it's not over yet.



Speaker:
00:53:31
Amy Martin: And it's such a contrast to



Speaker:
00:53:33
Amy Martin: how it feels to actually be



Speaker:
00:53:35
Amy Martin: on the coastal plain.



Speaker:
00:53:37
Amy Martin: Here at the epicenter of the



Speaker:
00:53:38
Amy Martin: battle, it's quiet,



Speaker:
00:53:41
Amy Martin: open, calm,



Speaker:
00:53:43
Amy Martin: and the enormity of the space



Speaker:
00:53:45
Amy Martin: around me gives me something



Speaker:
00:53:47
Amy Martin: that's increasingly hard to



Speaker:
00:53:48
Amy Martin: find in our world,



Speaker:
00:53:50
Amy Martin: a tangible sensation of



Speaker:
00:53:51
Amy Martin: how small my own life



Speaker:
00:53:53
Amy Martin: with all of its arguments,



Speaker:
00:53:55
Amy Martin: really is.



Speaker:
00:53:58
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's beautiful



Speaker:
00:54:00
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: in its own way.



Speaker:
00:54:02
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's. It's not just,



Speaker:
00:54:05
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: it's not like a beautiful



Speaker:
00:54:06
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: mountain.



Speaker:
00:54:08
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: You could say it's strikingly



Speaker:
00:54:09
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: empty right now.



Speaker:
00:54:12
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's, it's beautiful in



Speaker:
00:54:14
Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: a different way.



Speaker:
00:54:39
Amy Martin: This series was funded by



Speaker:
00:54:40
Amy Martin: the Pulitzer Center, Montana



Speaker:
00:54:42
Amy Martin: Public Radio, the Park



Speaker:
00:54:43
Amy Martin: Foundation, the High Stakes



Speaker:
00:54:45
Amy Martin: Foundation, the William H.



Speaker:
00:54:47
Amy Martin: and Mary Wattis Harris



Speaker:
00:54:48
Amy Martin: Foundation, and by



Speaker:
00:54:50
Amy Martin: you, our listeners.



Speaker:
00:54:52
Amy Martin: Thank you to all of you



Speaker:
00:54:53
Amy Martin: for helping to make this show



Speaker:
00:54:55
Amy Martin: happen.



Speaker:
00:54:56
Amy Martin: We're going to be keeping an



Speaker:
00:54:57
Amy Martin: eye on how things unfold with



Speaker:
00:54:58
Amy Martin: the refuge.



Speaker:
00:54:59
Amy Martin: If you'd like to stay informed



Speaker:
00:55:00
Amy Martin: about that, follow us on social



Speaker:
00:55:02
Amy Martin: media and join our mailing



Speaker:
00:55:04
Amy Martin: list at Thresholdpodcast.org.



Speaker:
00:55:07
Amy Martin: You can also find lots of



Speaker:
00:55:08
Amy Martin: pictures from our reporting



Speaker:
00:55:09
Amy Martin: trips there, as well as



Speaker:
00:55:11
Amy Martin: all of the audio from the first



Speaker:
00:55:13
Amy Martin: two seasons of our show.



Speaker:
00:55:14
Amy Martin: Again, all of that is at



Speaker:
00:55:16
Amy Martin: Thresholdpodcast.org.



Speaker:
00:55:25
Amy Martin: Huge thanks to the whole



Speaker:
00:55:27
Amy Martin: Threshold team for bringing



Speaker:
00:55:28
Amy Martin: this series together.



Speaker:
00:55:30
Amy Martin: Nick Mott and I are the



Speaker:
00:55:31
Amy Martin: producers, Eva Kalea



Speaker:
00:55:33
Amy Martin: is our marketing and operations



Speaker:
00:55:34
Amy Martin: director, Lynn Lieu runs



Speaker:
00:55:36
Amy Martin: our social media, Caysi



Speaker:
00:55:38
Amy Martin: Simpson and Brook Artziniega



Speaker:
00:55:39
Amy Martin: are our current interns.



Speaker:
00:55:41
Amy Martin: Meghan Myscofski was our summer



Speaker:
00:55:43
Amy Martin: intern, Tej Teddy is



Speaker:
00:55:44
Amy Martin: helping us write grants,



Speaker:
00:55:46
Amy Martin: Michelle Woods is our graphic



Speaker:
00:55:47
Amy Martin: designer and our board



Speaker:
00:55:49
Amy Martin: includes Hana Carey, Dan



Speaker:
00:55:51
Amy Martin: Carreno, Kara Cromwell,



Speaker:
00:55:53
Amy Martin: Katie DeFusco, Matt Herlihy



Speaker:
00:55:55
Amy Martin: and Rachel Klein.



Speaker:
00:55:57
Amy Martin: Big thanks to them and



Speaker:
00:55:59
Amy Martin: to Michael Connor and Frank



Speaker:
00:56:00
Amy Martin: Allen.



Speaker:
00:56:01
Amy Martin: Our music is by the



Speaker:
00:56:03
Amy Martin: ever fabulous Travis



Speaker:
00:56:05
Amy Martin: Yost.