Transformative Coaching

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JOHN: Higher ed has become
an increasingly complex and
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challenging environment to work in.
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In this episode, we explore the
role trained coaches can play in
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supporting agency, resilience, and
career growth for college employees.
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[MUSIC]
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Thanks for joining us for Tea for
Teaching, an informal discussion
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of innovative and effective
practices in teaching and learning.
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REBECCA: This podcast series is
hosted by John Kane, an economist…
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JOHN: …and Rebecca Mushtare,
a graphic designer…
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REBECCA: …and features guests doing
important research and advocacy work
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to make higher education more inclusive
and supportive of all learners.
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[MUSIC]
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JOHN: Our guests today are
Susan Hrach and Kitty Maynard.
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Susan is the author of Minding
Bodies: How Physical Space, Sensation,
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and Movement Affect Learning.
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She’s served as a Fulbright Canada
Distinguished Research Chair,
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and recently appeared on the
TEDx stage in Columbus, Georgia.
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Kitty is the Director of the
Teaching and Scholarship Hub
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at the University of Richmond.
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Her higher ed career began as a
Professor of French Studies, and she
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has taken on leadership roles in faculty
development at Washington College and
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Virginia Commonwealth University before
moving to the University of Richmond.
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She is the author of Reveries of
Community: Epic in the Age of Henri IV
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and co-editor of Polemic and Literature
Surrounding the French Wars of Religion.
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Susan and Kitty have both received
training from, and are members of,
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the International Coaching Federation.
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They are also two of the editors of
Transformative Coaching for Faculty
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and Staff in Higher Education.
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Welcome back, Susan, and welcome, Kitty.
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KITTY: Thank you, thank you so much.
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SUSAN: Thank you,
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JOHN: Rebecca cannot be here today.
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So, once again, our Dean of the
College of Liberal Arts, Sciences, and
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Engineering here at SUNY Oswego will be
filling in, and that's Kristin Croyle.
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KRISTIN: Thank you.
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I'm delighted to be here.
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So, today's teas are, John,
what are you drinking today?
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JOHN: I am drinking a
spring cherry green tea.
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KRISTIN: Oh ho ho.
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and for our guests, what
are you drinking today?
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KITTY: Well, I'm drinking a tea
that is called Richmond Blend.
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I'm here in Richmond, Virginia, and the
tea is from Boscovs, which is a sort
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of an iconic coffee and tea purveyor
here in Richmond, Virginia, and it's
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sort of a spicy cinnamony clovey tea.
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It's probably better for Christmas
time, even though we're in July, but I
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definitely wanted to play along, because
I've noticed, anyway, because I listened
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to your podcast quite a bit, that a lot
of your guests have not been following
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and really respecting the conceit of
the show, [LAUGHTER] so I wanted to
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make sure to do that today with my tea.
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SUSAN: Oh no, and I'm a
violator [LAUGHTER] because
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it's going to be a swelter today here
in Columbus, Georgia, and so I am
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having a Limoncello LaCroix, or La
Croix, [LAUGHTER] as fancier people
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might want to pronounce it now.
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[LAUGHTER]
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KRISTIN: Now, if this was afternoon
here… we're recording in the morning…
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I would be drinking a cold Earl
Grey, but morning… just water today.
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JOHN: And going back to your earlier
comment, one of our serial offenders
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has been Derek Bruff, who brings
his tea for teaching mug, which
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he refers to as his coffee mug.
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[LAUGHTER]
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SUSAN: Oh no.
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[LAUGHTER]
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KITTY: It’s heresy.
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[LAUGHTER]
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JOHN: It's always great to
have him on, though, when we
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do get a chance to talk to him.
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[LAUGHTER] So, we've invited here today
to discuss transformative coaching
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for faculty and staff in higher ed.
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Could you tell us a little bit about
how this book project came about.
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SUSAN: So, this is a book that was
born at the Pod Network Conference
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in 2023 in Pittsburgh, and Karen
Gonzalez Rice and I decided to pitch
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a birds of a feather session, which
POD attendees may know more about.
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They're very informal conversations.
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They usually take place first thing in
the morning on one of the conference
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days, and they're opportunities for
people to informally discuss something
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that's of sort of emerging interest.
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And so we pitched a birds of
feather session on coaching.
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Kitty was in the group of attendees that
day, and she was already working with
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Katie Linder and her coaching program
for academics, and so within a couple of
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months after that November conference,
the four of us had kind of connected and
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expressed interest in doing an edited
collection and put together a call for
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proposals, and we were off to the races.
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KRISTIN: Excellent.
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And who's the intended
audience for the book?
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KITTY: Well, it's really interesting,
because we started out thinking that
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this book was going to be mainly
for other coaches working in higher
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ed, or possibly people who we call
coaching curious, just those who are
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wondering what coaching is about, and
maybe if they want to become a coach.
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But it was really interesting as we
started to talk to potential collaborators
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and contributors, our vision of what
this book could be really expanded,
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and we realized that coaching has
applications that really go beyond what
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we had initially proposed, so while the
most obvious audience would be those who
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support faculty and staff in higher ed,
that's to say, people like educational
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developers, or maybe even folks who work
in HR, several pieces relate directly to,
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for example, faculty roles like chairing
a department, or even teaching, and so
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we ended up adding some other chapters
to have a more capacious vision of what
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coaching could do in higher ed, so we have
chapters from mid-level administrators,
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we have some other chapters for people
working in different parts of higher
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ed, like instructional design, and I
guess I would say our real wish for an
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audience, our sort of shadow audience, is
upper-level administrators who hold the
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purse strings and can really hopefully
have an opportunity to see how coaching
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might benefit their institutions and
those working in them, and how it might
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be deployed throughout the university,
but I think our overall takeaway here
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is that coaching is a really nimble
way to support individuals at a complex
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moment in higher ed and the world.
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KRISTIN: Excellent.
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JOHN: How did you select the authors
of the chapters of this book?
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SUSAN: We circulated our call for
proposals widely among all of the
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coaching networks that the four
of us were already a part of, and
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encouraged them to share freely.
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One reality that we recognized in seeing
the need for this book was that there
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aren't that many… there really aren't
any… formal organizations for those
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who work in coaching in higher ed, and
so it had to be sort of a grassroots
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solicitation, and we got a really
generous, lovely set of submissions
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that then we got together, talked about
where there might be some topics that we
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wanted to see, but no one had submitted
on, recruited a few more people who we
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knew had expertise in those areas, and
overall we're just super excited to have
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almost 30 contributors, or maybe a little
more than 30 contributors to the book.
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KRISTIN: Yeah, I was struck in
looking through the book at both the
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unified voice, but also the really
personal voices in it, and having
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that many contributors gives you an
opportunity to have a lot of different
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voices in a kind of personal way.
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The book is divided into six sections.
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You were talking previously
about all the different aspects
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that you wanted to bring in.
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Can you give us an overview of what kind
of thing is addressed in each section?
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KITTY: Sure, I'd be happy to.
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We start with a section on the
foundations of coaching, which
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is really an introduction to what
coaching actually is and is not.
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Susan just referred to the fact
that sometimes coaching isn't even
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really well defined, and can even
have a questionable reputation,
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depending on who you're talking to.
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So, this book, in the intro, we
really established the norms of the
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International Coaching Federation,
which is where most of us have been
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trained, or we've been trained in with
organizations that are adjacent and use
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some of those same principles, and that
is defining coaching as a collaborative
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process between a client and a coach to
support the client in reaching goals.
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And then the second part is about
growing coaching skills, and it really
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explores how to develop some of the
essential skills and competencies that
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we associate with coaching, and how
those can support folks in higher ed.
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So we talk about cultural awareness,
we talk about knowledge of the
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profession, and we also talk about
ways we can support the entire spectrum
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of neurodiversity with our clients.
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The next section is about applying
coaching skills to specific scenarios,
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and so we really explore how coaching
can be used in teaching, research, and
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leadership positions, and a subsequent
section talks more about coaching
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for specific audiences, so we look at
coaching for folks who are in roles
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like senior administration or student
affairs, instructional technology,
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and also people who may just be having
certain experiences in higher ed, for
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example, those experiencing burnout.
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And then we have a section on coaching
the career cycle, where we focus
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on how coaches can help develop or
help others develop vitality in the
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different stages of their careers.
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So that one's a little more faculty
focused, although not exclusively so,
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and then our last section is about
group, team, and peer coaching materials,
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and that section we think about how
we can scale coaching to reach more
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people than just a typical one-on-one
individual interaction, so we think
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about how coaching can play a role in
organizational transformation, or how we
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can use coaching to develop community.
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KRISTIN: I appreciated your use of the
term coaching curious, because I think
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having that variety of topics really gives
people a chance to see the range with
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which coaching can be used in higher ed.
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JOHN: What led you to see coaching
as a useful framework for faculty
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and staff development in higher ed?
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SUSAN: Well, I had begun my academic
career working in writing centers,
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and in that field the writer is always
given the agency and autonomy to be
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in charge of their own work, and you
work with the peer tutors, or the peer
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consultants, as they're called sometimes,
to respect the control of the output
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to the student, and so when I first
learned about coaching, I immediately
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recognized a similar kind of ethos, which
is different than mentoring and different
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than consulting, and different from
therapy in an important way that maybe
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we can address later, but mostly in that
a mentor or a consultant is someone who
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has the knowledge that they're planning
to impart to the person being mentored,
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whereas coaching respects the client
or the coachee as the expert in their
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own situation, and the person who the
answers really need to be drawn out from.
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And so I also connected with it as an
educational developer, and thinking
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about active learning, because telling
people what to do just doesn't work,
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[LAUGHTER] as wise as it may be, and
telling them about the knowledge or
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skills you want them to develop is
just not as effective as allowing
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them to come to those realizations for
themselves, and so I saw the value in it.
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I was already committed to its
usefulness in learning, and coaching,
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in the end, is a lot about the
learning process of the client.
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KRISTIN: And John didn't mention, but
I'll say, I'm a clinical psychologist,
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that's my background, so I'll just
double down on what you said there.
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[LAUGHTER]
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SUSAN: Yes, thank you.
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KITTY: And I would also say that
coaching for educational developers,
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coaching is kind of in the air anyway.
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There's a really canonical article
from 2011 by Michael Palmer and Deandra
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Little, which is called “A coaching-based
framework for individual consultations,”
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and a lot of us use that, and I used
it for years to help me be a better
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consultant when folks come in for specific
pedagogical reasons, or even just to
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talk about career questions, and so I was
already using some of those principles,
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and so it was a really exciting
opportunity to develop those coaching
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skills and really take them further.
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KRISTIN: Beyond some of the iconic
articles in the field, your book cites
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several studies concerning the impact
of coaching in workplace settings.
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Tell us a little about the
research foundation here.
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KITTY: Absolutely, so we have a
very short literature review in the
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book that will point you to some
helpful resources that talk about
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what coaching is and how it works.
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In particular, there are two meta
analyses, one that came out in 2016
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and one that came out in 2023 that
have both looked at the literature
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to demonstrate how coaching is an
effective workplace intervention, and
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more specifically, what that could mean
is that coaching has been linked in the
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research to things like greater optimism,
work-life satisfaction, engagement in
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work, productivity for workers, and
it's also been studied in terms of how
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it can improve management skills for
those who are in supervisory roles.
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So, there's a recognition there that more
research is needed, that it's really an
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evolving field and has become more and
more common in the workplace over the
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past 20 years, but there's also a lot
that's very promising there, and I would
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just say that what it really does for me
is confirm the positive results that we
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tend to see firsthand as coaches in our
sessions, or even those of us who've been
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coached ourselves, so it sort of confirms
that anecdotal evidence that we already
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had, that it's a very powerful practice.
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KRISTIN: Thank you.
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JOHN: Your book title uses the
word “transformative.” What makes
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coaching transformative rather than
simply supportive or developmental?
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SUSAN: Yeah, we address in the
introduction just briefly the fact
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that the word transformative is more
than just an adjective for a number
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of theories of leadership, and we want
to signal with that word that we are
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taking a particularly open approach to
multiple different ways of thinking about
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transformation, but I can say about the
way that coaching, in particular, signals
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transformation to me comes from one of
the leaders in the field, Marcia Reynolds.
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She wrote a book, I think, called Coach
the Person, Not the Problem, [LAUGHTER] in
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that one of the most important questions
and transformational questions in
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coaching sessions can be what makes this
important, and so you're drawing out from
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the client not just a solution to their
immediate problem, but something deeper,
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something that would signal a shift that
is a new perspective for them, a new
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insight that might change their behaviors
or even beliefs, and so in that respect
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it's more than a surface- level change.
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KRISTIN: I know that none of us are
unaware that higher ed is going through
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a lot of change right now, and that we
have many faculty and staff colleagues
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who are experiencing burnout, who are
feeling particularly uncertain, who
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may have difficulty seeing what their
future is in higher ed and aligning
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their own values to some of the changes
in their regions of the country.
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Tell us a little bit about how coaching
can be useful in a setting like this.
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KITTY: So I think to go back to
our conversation about that word
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transformational, I would say that
coaching is really particularly useful
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for people navigating transitions and
change, and frankly, that's when most
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people start to seek out coaching
support is when they're going through
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something where they're really not sure
what to do, [LAUGHTER] they're really
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not sure where to go next, and so
anytime there is a lot of uncertainty
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and change in someone's life, coaching
can be a really helpful response.
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It kind of gives people back that
sense of agency in some way or another.
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In terms of burnout, in particular, we
have a really great chapter in our book
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by Rebecca Pope-Ruark, who wrote the book
Unraveling Faculty Burnout, where she
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really explores this in terms of faculty,
and in that chapter she offers some tools
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for coaches to help people rediscover
purpose, compassion, connection, and
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balance, and those are the four things
that she notes that are pillars of burnout
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resistance, the things that help us
find ourselves when we're facing those
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challenging moments in our careers.
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And I would say more globally, as we've
started to think about coaching as an
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ecosystem that could exist within higher
ed, I see it as a hopeful space where
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we can actually build more humane and
inclusive higher education workplaces
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that really respect the individual
needs of the people who work here.
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KRISTIN: Thank you.
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JOHN: Teaching centers and faculty
developers often serve a role where they
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answer questions for people, they provide
models of effective teaching practices.
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They do workshops and so forth,
but the coaching approach is a bit
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different than that type of interaction.
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Can you talk a little bit about how
a coaching approach might change
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the nature of interactions with
teaching centers and what a typical
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coaching session might look like?
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SUSAN: So, the most conventional kind
of coaching is one on one, and so it's
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not a workshop typically, not that a
workshop can't employ coaching strategies,
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but as we were discussing earlier, it's
about drawing out the expertise of the
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person that they already possess, so
a coach would ask: “Where are you now?
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What would be different if you achieve
this change that you want to make?
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What are your options for getting there?
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What obstacles can you anticipate,
and how will you respond?
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What's the first step?” And so those
are each pieces of a coaching framework
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that the client has to answer for
themselves, and so if you think about
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it in terms of a client who might
be also interested in changing their
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teaching strategies, let's say it's
slower but might be ultimately more
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successful route to making that change.
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You'd have to acknowledge that it's going
to take significant time and resources
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to adopt new teaching strategies and
refine them, or to envision a different
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career path, or a purposeful retirement.
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And coaching is allowing you to get clear
on why making that change is important
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enough to invest that time and energy.
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And so if you don't know what strategies
you might want to employ, then the
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coaching conversation might include,
“Let's talk about what your resources are.
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Who do you know?
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Where could you go?
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What actions can you take in order to
find those things.” So again, you're
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not providing the answers, you're
sort of helping the person think
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about where they want to pursue those.
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KRISTIN: And I know many faculty are well
versed with what an individual teaching
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consultation might feel like, but how
would that differ from how a typical
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coaching session might feel or look like?
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SUSAN: It's different in that, and
this is very important for clients to
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understand, it's usually part of the
initial meeting in which we take time to
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talk to them about their expectations and
how coaching is different from mentoring
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or consulting, which is that the coach
is not going to hand you the answers.
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[LAUGHTER] If that's your
expectation, then this is not,
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maybe the interaction, or the…
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KRISTIN: Oh, but that would be
so much easier., wouldn’t it?
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[LAUGHTER]
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SUSAN: It would…
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KRISTIN: You’d just have
the magic answers on hand.
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SUSAN: It would and yet, it wouldn't be
as successful in leading to a lasting
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change, or growth, or learning, which is
hard and takes effort on the part of the
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person who's seeking out that growth.
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KITTY: And I would just add to what
Susan said by saying there are times
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when coaching isn't the solution.
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Sometimes, in a pedagogical consultation,
your expertise does come into play,
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that people really do want to know,
like, what should I do in my classroom,
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what kind of warm-up activities should
I do in my classroom, and do you have
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any ideas for me that I could use?
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And that's not a coaching
conversation, that's a consulting
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conversation, and that's okay.
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It doesn't all have to be about coaching,
but I think that coaching skills are
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valuable, and I think to get back to
Susan's point about her writing center
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work, the idea that you are seeing
the person who's coming to you for a
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consultation or a coaching session,
you're seeing them as someone who has
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more answers than maybe they even realize,
and helping draw that out for them with
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powerful questions, and sometimes coaching
tools and deep listening, that is valuable
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in a consultation too, even if it is
a moment when you maybe are going to
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give somebody a more direct answer, or
you're going to be like, "Here's a book
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you could take a look at, and it has all
sorts of great ideas in it.” So, they
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both can be very helpful in this work.
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SUSAN: That's right.
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KRISTIN: Yeah, I like the writing
center analogy, because the best writing
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teachers are helping people find their
voice and express their own voice,
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they're not telling them what to write.
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JOHN: So, part of coaching involves
having the clients identify their own
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goals, but one of the problems that
we all have sometimes is having the
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motivation to achieve those goals.
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How can coaches help their clients
remain motivated to achieve their goals?
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KITTY: Well, this is a foundational
piece of what coaching does, and I
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think the first thing is that it helps
people identify their values as well as
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their true priorities, which sometimes
can get lost in all the doing that
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consumes so much of our time, so it
taps into intrinsic motivation, which
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means that if we are able to set goals
that matter to us, that helps us make
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meaningful progress on those goals.
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I think sometimes we have goals in
mind and they're actually not our
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goals, their someone else's goals.
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[LAUGHTER] I mean, sometimes that has
to be the way it is in our jobs and
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in our lives, but a lot of times there
are ways that we can find to tweak the
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goals, so that we are actually more
naturally motivated to accomplish them.
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But coaching is also really
helpful with project management.
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It's helpful in how to plan to find
mentors and to find the help that you need
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to accomplish a goal, and what kind of
resources are needed, and then it also can
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provide accountability structure, which
is another thing I think, in particular
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for academics who do a lot of independent
work, where deadlines are a little bit
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more fluid, or sometimes incredibly
fluid, depending on where you are.
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It helps kind of stay on track.
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Also, sometimes, for example, in coaching,
I actually will write follow-up emails
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to people, so that's part of my support
is checking in to say, “Hey, last week
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you said you were going to do this, how's
it going for you, how is that going?
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And sometimes that's enough to
help people kind of loop into the
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goals that they want to achieve.
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KRISTIN: And I know that faculty who
have worked in a more traditional
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faculty role versus ones who are
working in an administrative role, where
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there's more of a team environment,
will sometimes find that different
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structure also to be helpful.
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So, yeah, it's finding ways to
build your own structures in, yes?
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KITTY: Absolutely.
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And that's one of the other
types of conversations we would
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have with a client, is: “What's
going to help you keep on track.
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What do you need to keep on
track?” and “How are you going
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to build that into your life?”
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KRISTIN: What role can coaching play
in helping faculty and staff make more
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sustainable decisions about their time,
their energy, their professional identity?
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How they can make decisions that
will pay off for them in their own
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satisfaction for years to come.
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SUSAN: Yeah, thank you for that question.
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I think it's been really interesting to
me over the past few years of working
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with colleagues how much it matters to
have someone give you their undivided
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attention and presence for a number of
hours as your coaching series evolves.
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Even when I was feeling very sensitive
about my own development coming out of
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training as a coach, I would be very
conscious of where I had not asked the
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best question or had fallen through the
cracks of where the conversation might
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have gone and yet there was no question
by the end of the conversation that
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the person was just so pleased to have
had the chance to talk and have someone
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really listen to them carefully, and
how desperately people needed that,
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[LAUGHTER] and so I would say that the
sustainable decision making is partly
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an outcome of having made the choice
to invest time and energy in a coaching
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relationship, like you've already taken
the first most important step, which
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is to say, I am going to carve out some
time, which, as we know, time is maybe
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the most precious resource that most
academics have, we're not in it for
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the money, but we sure do spend time.
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So, if you've decided I'm going to
intentionally dedicate an hour on several
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occasions to talk through an important
issue for me, then you've already kind
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of signalled to yourself that this is
something you're prepared to sustain
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and be committed to, and as Kitty was
saying earlier, the accountability that
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coaching provides is one of the really
important things that we practice in
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between each session, and that ultimately
by the time we reach the point where
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we're ready to at least temporarily
bring that series to a close, t he
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person needs to have identified what
their own accountability practice is
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going to involve, and so there's a
sustainability priority that's kind of
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built into the coaching conversation.
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KRISTIN: I can imagine that some people
who have not experienced coaching
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may listen to this and may think, but
I have a very supportive colleague
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or partner or friend that I have
these kinds of conversations with.
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What do you see as different in the
coaching relationship than a great
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supportive personal relationship?
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SUSAN: That's a great question, and
it's a question that I asked myself
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when I was starting the training,
because I thought, “Well, you know, I
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have decent conversational skills. How
hard can this be?” And then I realized
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that it's actually incredibly hard,
because coaching conversations do
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not follow normal social turn taking.
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You, the coach, are not an equal, like,
interlocutor in that relationship.
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The client should be doing way more
talking and way more thinking, and you
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are posing powerful questions for them.
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And so it is not a normal conversation,
[LAUGHTER] and it's hard to develop
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the skill to sort of be quiet and make
space for their thinking to emerge.
409
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Sometimes there's long silences while
you're allowing people to process their
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thinking, and that's not the typical
friend or colleague kind of conversation.
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KITTY: And coaching sessions are
actually very highly structured.
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We follow a pretty standard structure
of every coaching conversation, so in
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that sense, as well, it's different
than having a good supportive friend or
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colleague, although we all need that too.
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So I certainly don't want to say that
those conversations are not incredibly
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valuable, but I would say in my own
experience, when I'm having a conversation
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with a colleague or friend, a lot of that
is about getting advice, specific advice
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from people, which is also incredibly
helpful, but coaches aren't going to
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give you that advice, they're going to
draw out your own advice for yourself.
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One of my favorite coaching questions is
something that Katie Linder taught us,
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which is a lot of times clients come to
you and they actually expect to be getting
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advice from you, and so that's something
that we sort of have to prime with our
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clients, is that we're not going to be
giving you specific advice, because that's
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something we're going to trust you to find
yourself, but when somebody does come to
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you and they really want advice, Katie's
question is, “What would you like me to
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give you permission to do?” because it
turns it back on them again to say, “Hey,
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what do you really want to do, what are
you looking for me to say to you that you
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want to do yourself?” which I think is
a very clever question, and it's really
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fun to ask it, [LAUGHTER] it's really
fun to see what kind of answers you get.
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KRISTIN: And I'll add, too, that
having a separate relationship, a
431
00:30:06,110 --> 00:30:10,619
coaching relationship, you don't have
to worry if I say this thing, how is
432
00:30:10,619 --> 00:30:15,239
my friend going to judge me, or if I
say I want to do this, am I ready to
433
00:30:15,239 --> 00:30:17,000
talk about this piece with my partner?
434
00:30:17,450 --> 00:30:21,649
There's other complexities in our
long-term personal relationships that
435
00:30:21,669 --> 00:30:25,040
in a coaching relationship you don't
have to worry about how are they
436
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,030
going to change how they see me or
what is the impact of this going to
437
00:30:28,039 --> 00:30:32,859
be, where there's a reciprocal kind
of emotional care where you're trying
438
00:30:32,860 --> 00:30:34,590
to take care of the other person.
439
00:30:34,590 --> 00:30:38,829
Coaching gives people an opportunity
to not have to care about [LAUGHTER]
440
00:30:38,829 --> 00:30:41,909
not in the same way, to not to
take care of the other person, that
441
00:30:41,910 --> 00:30:46,249
that's the time for them to think
about how to care for themselves.
442
00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:47,829
KITTY: That's an incredible point.
443
00:30:47,869 --> 00:30:52,269
I think it's really, really important,
and gets us back to some of the principles
444
00:30:52,269 --> 00:30:54,990
of coaching, where we are confidential.
445
00:30:55,529 --> 00:31:00,159
It's really our relationship with our
clients, it is 100% between us, it
446
00:31:00,159 --> 00:31:05,019
never leaves that conversation unless
it's some professional obligation,
447
00:31:05,019 --> 00:31:08,140
because someone is expressing harm
or something like that, but otherwise
448
00:31:08,159 --> 00:31:12,679
it is absolutely confidential, and
so people can try on things that they
449
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,269
might not feel comfortable trying
on with a colleague or a partner.
450
00:31:16,820 --> 00:31:20,850
JOHN: It sounds a lot like psychological
counseling in many ways, doesn't it?
451
00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:23,439
KRISTIN: In just certainly
non-directive approaches, there
452
00:31:23,439 --> 00:31:26,669
are similarities, and many of the
roots come from the same roots.
453
00:31:26,949 --> 00:31:29,579
JOHN: One of the things you address
in the book is how coaching needs
454
00:31:29,629 --> 00:31:32,480
will be different for different
people at different stages of the
455
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:33,890
career and in different roles.
456
00:31:34,290 --> 00:31:39,049
How might coaching needs differ for
early career faculty, mid-career faculty,
457
00:31:39,159 --> 00:31:42,060
senior faculty, chairs, and staff leaders?
458
00:31:42,239 --> 00:31:46,130
KITTY: I would say in many ways the
coaching approach doesn't change
459
00:31:46,149 --> 00:31:50,309
much with all of these audiences,
because our practices are similar.
460
00:31:50,309 --> 00:31:54,229
We are going to ask powerful questions,
we're going to be listening deeply in
461
00:31:54,229 --> 00:31:58,910
a way that empowers the individuals we
work with, but coaches often develop
462
00:31:58,949 --> 00:32:04,149
expertise in a particular area, depending
on where they're working and the spaces
463
00:32:04,149 --> 00:32:09,750
they're working in, and when that happens,
coaches tend to see similar issues
464
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:14,589
come up, so they become more skilled at
asking the right question at the right
465
00:32:14,599 --> 00:32:18,679
time, or understanding a particular
tool is going to be really useful for
466
00:32:18,679 --> 00:32:20,659
somebody in a particular career phase.
467
00:32:20,879 --> 00:32:25,579
So to your question, John, it's not
unusual, for example, when I encounter
468
00:32:25,580 --> 00:32:29,919
people in their early career to be
struggling with finding mentors or
469
00:32:30,309 --> 00:32:33,639
to be trying to figure out what kind
of workflows are going to actually be
470
00:32:33,649 --> 00:32:37,699
effective for them as they're juggling
all of the new things that they may have
471
00:32:37,699 --> 00:32:40,060
not had to juggle in graduate school.
472
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,440
On the other hand, someone who's a
little bit more advanced in their
473
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,080
career might be thinking about
legacy or thinking about retirement.
474
00:32:46,620 --> 00:32:50,470
Someone in mid-career might be just
getting tenure and trying to figure
475
00:32:50,470 --> 00:32:53,489
out what's next for them after they've
jumped all these hurdles and they
476
00:32:53,490 --> 00:32:56,730
finally come to the end of the hurdles
and are looking ahead and saying,
477
00:32:56,730 --> 00:33:00,330
“Well, what do I do now?” So, really,
I think a general coaching approach
478
00:33:00,330 --> 00:33:03,309
can help with any of those concerns,
but a coach with a background in
479
00:33:03,309 --> 00:33:07,719
those areas is likely to have the
tools to address a particular need.
480
00:33:08,029 --> 00:33:10,870
And so, one of the nice things about
our volume is it has some great
481
00:33:10,870 --> 00:33:14,269
chapters to help both coaches and
those who are kind of going through
482
00:33:14,270 --> 00:33:15,510
those different career phases.
483
00:33:17,209 --> 00:33:22,310
KRISTIN: How can coaches help faculty and
staff navigate conflicts between their
484
00:33:22,379 --> 00:33:28,580
own goals, values, and commitments and
institutional pressures, particularly
485
00:33:28,610 --> 00:33:32,769
in settings where coaching may be
available within the institution.
486
00:33:32,989 --> 00:33:36,839
SUSAN: This is a really important
question, and it's one that touches
487
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,839
on some things we've already mentioned
having to do with ethical commitments.
488
00:33:42,099 --> 00:33:48,119
The International Coaching Federation,
in fact, requires an ethics training as
489
00:33:48,129 --> 00:33:52,629
part of the credentialing process and
re-credentialing process, and so for
490
00:33:52,650 --> 00:33:57,789
internal coaches this is particularly
important, and as Kitty mentioned, the
491
00:33:57,790 --> 00:34:03,429
confidentiality piece is primary, but
the other thing that kind of surprised
492
00:34:03,489 --> 00:34:09,840
me when I first started the training and
remains really important to my sense of
493
00:34:10,279 --> 00:34:15,929
the value of doing this in higher ed is
that the coach's primary responsibility
494
00:34:15,939 --> 00:34:19,040
is with the client, not the institution.
495
00:34:19,509 --> 00:34:24,410
And so, I was really kind of shocked
when I asked the question in my training:
496
00:34:24,410 --> 00:34:26,480
“Well, what if the person wants to quit?
497
00:34:26,570 --> 00:34:31,989
Then what do you do?” And the response
was, “Well, then you need to explore that
498
00:34:31,989 --> 00:34:38,259
with them.” This is not a place where
your job is to make sure that they stay
499
00:34:38,329 --> 00:34:40,290
with the institution, no matter what.
500
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:46,389
You're helping them think through a
very difficult professional crossroads,
501
00:34:46,789 --> 00:34:52,480
and so if maintaining their affiliation
with the institution is really a
502
00:34:52,500 --> 00:34:57,029
valuable and meaningful priority
for that client, then okay, we know
503
00:34:57,029 --> 00:34:59,149
that that's one of our anchors.
504
00:34:59,149 --> 00:35:02,380
We're going to have to figure out
how to manage this conflict in other
505
00:35:02,380 --> 00:35:07,469
ways, but if the conflict turns out
to be more significant than staying
506
00:35:07,479 --> 00:35:13,100
in that job or role, then the job of
the coaching partnership is to think
507
00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:15,429
about how to manage this transition.
508
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:16,779
What would be a better fit?
509
00:35:16,809 --> 00:35:21,339
What does that look like, how are you
thinking about that, and so there's a
510
00:35:21,339 --> 00:35:29,369
great chapter in the book, in particular
by Chinasa Elue, that is about coaching.
511
00:35:29,559 --> 00:35:31,149
Well, let's see, what does she call it?
512
00:35:31,389 --> 00:35:32,589
KITTY: Walking the tightrope…
513
00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:35,890
SUSAN: Walking the tightrope:
Coaching faculty clients who
514
00:35:35,890 --> 00:35:37,720
decide to leave the university.
515
00:35:38,390 --> 00:35:43,370
KRISTIN: And as a Dean, I will say that
if someone talks with me, and there
516
00:35:43,370 --> 00:35:47,300
are faculty and staff who talk with me
about their quandaries about whether
517
00:35:47,300 --> 00:35:51,829
they should stay or go, I actually
see my role in a very similar way.
518
00:35:51,870 --> 00:35:53,220
I want them to be thriving.
519
00:35:53,220 --> 00:35:56,249
If they're thriving here, it's good
for the institution, but if they're
520
00:35:56,250 --> 00:36:00,050
not thriving, it's not good for them,
and it's not good for the institution,
521
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:00,909
SUSAN: That's right,
522
00:36:01,090 --> 00:36:03,429
KRISTIN: But that's a very
different conversation, certainly,
523
00:36:03,439 --> 00:36:04,619
than it would be with a coach.
524
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:11,069
SUSAN: It is, and I have noticed that it's
particularly difficult and regrettable
525
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:17,570
that the system of tenure makes many
people feel that there is no possible
526
00:36:17,570 --> 00:36:19,289
way for them to walk away from this.
527
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,410
They grabbed the gold ring,
and so, boy, they better stay.
528
00:36:22,559 --> 00:36:24,370
And so it's a life crisis.
529
00:36:24,990 --> 00:36:31,440
[LAUGHTER] And so coaching is a really
wonderful tool to have to be able
530
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,609
to work through that kind of crisis.
531
00:36:34,109 --> 00:36:36,949
JOHN: So, who should be
trained in coaching skills?
532
00:36:37,139 --> 00:36:41,649
Clearly, from the main theme of the book,
teaching center staff should be, but might
533
00:36:41,650 --> 00:36:46,090
this also be appropriate for chairs and
deans and student affairs professionals
534
00:36:46,119 --> 00:36:51,079
and supervisors and peer mentors, and
might it even be helpful for faculty,
535
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:56,339
because our relationship with students is
also a coaching relationship in many ways.
536
00:36:56,519 --> 00:36:59,209
KITTY: Yeah, I would say
absolutely to all of those things.
537
00:36:59,369 --> 00:37:03,630
I think coaching skills are really
helpful for anyone, and in particular,
538
00:37:03,759 --> 00:37:07,549
anyone in a type of role where
you're being asked to mentor or
539
00:37:07,549 --> 00:37:09,719
support or guide others in some way.
540
00:37:10,029 --> 00:37:13,690
I think one of the biggest revelations
for me during my coach training was the
541
00:37:13,699 --> 00:37:17,599
breadth of occasions where I found deep
listening and powerful questions to
542
00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:22,229
come in handy, not just professionally,
but even personally, in some moments.
543
00:37:22,389 --> 00:37:27,359
So, I think when I think of faculty
members, John, as you noted, working
544
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,879
with students, coaching skills can be so
helpful, or if you're doing advising with
545
00:37:31,889 --> 00:37:35,879
students in any way, but I'd also say
with colleagues, I think one of the things
546
00:37:35,879 --> 00:37:41,379
that I have experienced myself as a former
faculty member is we're not always good
547
00:37:41,379 --> 00:37:44,969
at talking to each other, we're not always
good at listening to each other, we're not
548
00:37:45,009 --> 00:37:48,849
always good at asking the right questions
of each other, and so those skills can
549
00:37:48,959 --> 00:37:50,849
be applied in all sorts of contexts.
550
00:37:51,679 --> 00:37:54,430
KRISTIN: What mistakes should
campuses avoid when they first
551
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:55,799
try to introduce coaching?
552
00:37:56,690 --> 00:38:00,359
SUSAN: In the beginning of the
book, we have a couple of chapters.
553
00:38:00,399 --> 00:38:06,489
These are Katie's on how to seek
out certified training programs,
554
00:38:06,679 --> 00:38:10,070
what questions to ask, what are
all of the options you might
555
00:38:10,070 --> 00:38:12,079
consider, and for what reasons.
556
00:38:12,379 --> 00:38:13,919
But training is key.
557
00:38:14,229 --> 00:38:19,389
So I hope that our book is an
important contribution to people who
558
00:38:19,389 --> 00:38:23,960
are at the coaching curious stage,
but I wouldn't want someone to read
559
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:29,800
our book and then decide, okay,
we're ready, [LAUGHTER] let's do it.
560
00:38:29,929 --> 00:38:35,650
There's some very important standards
that we want coaching professionals to be
561
00:38:35,650 --> 00:38:43,680
able to meet and uphold, and institutions
can also look into outsourcing, just like
562
00:38:43,750 --> 00:38:45,880
with any other professional development.
563
00:38:46,330 --> 00:38:50,700
The imperative to develop your own
internal coaches doesn't have to be where
564
00:38:50,700 --> 00:38:57,119
you start, and in the corporate sector,
executive coaching has been a thing for
565
00:38:57,119 --> 00:39:02,519
a long time, and I think upper-level
administrative leaders get a little
566
00:39:02,529 --> 00:39:08,629
bit of that because they fall into that
kind of executive identity, but what
567
00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:16,059
we're really hoping to do is democratize
this resource, and so where deans or
568
00:39:16,209 --> 00:39:23,109
provosts or others who have control of
institutional budgets might be interested
569
00:39:23,209 --> 00:39:29,029
in whether coaching could be a useful
way to help people who could benefit.
570
00:39:29,209 --> 00:39:31,229
I think there are other places to begin.
571
00:39:31,509 --> 00:39:36,500
KRISTIN: Yeah, I think the influence of
kind of corporate leadership coaching
572
00:39:36,509 --> 00:39:43,099
has been a positive in many ways, because
people see it, they see the value,
573
00:39:43,099 --> 00:39:47,099
they think, “Well, if that's something
that is a given in those settings, and
574
00:39:47,099 --> 00:39:51,059
people will pay a lot of money for it
in those settings, that it must have
575
00:39:51,070 --> 00:39:56,569
actual value.” So that people who are
not responsive to the research foundation
576
00:39:56,570 --> 00:40:01,839
may be responsive to that argument.
Instead, I think the first time I hired
577
00:40:01,839 --> 00:40:06,179
a coach for someone was 15 years ago,
saying, "Look, you have great leadership
578
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:11,029
capacity and skill, but it's not
something that you're able to bring out.
579
00:40:11,369 --> 00:40:13,599
Let's see if a coach can
help bring that out.”
580
00:40:13,949 --> 00:40:17,659
SUSAN: Oh, thank you for saying that,
Kristin, and if I could just add something
581
00:40:17,659 --> 00:40:24,300
else about ways we would prefer not to see
coaching implemented is as remediation.
582
00:40:24,769 --> 00:40:29,559
Your impulse was to see someone who
has great leadership potential, because
583
00:40:29,579 --> 00:40:34,629
coaching is about where are you now and
where do you want to go, and I would
584
00:40:34,629 --> 00:40:41,479
love to h ear more from you about how you
see therapy and counseling as distinct
585
00:40:41,649 --> 00:40:46,409
from that kind of orientation, because
my understanding, or the way that I
586
00:40:46,629 --> 00:40:52,460
explain it to my clients, is that if
we get to a place where you seem unable
587
00:40:52,460 --> 00:40:58,019
to move past something that happened
to you in the past or some conflict you
588
00:40:58,020 --> 00:41:02,409
had with someone in the past, and we
just keep being drawn back to this issue
589
00:41:02,419 --> 00:41:07,519
that clearly needs to be resolved or
healed in some way, then I'm going to
590
00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:12,799
make a referral to you to a professional
counselor, a professional therapist.
591
00:41:12,970 --> 00:41:18,689
A coach should be trained to recognize
when referrals are the appropriate action.
592
00:41:18,899 --> 00:41:22,480
KRISTIN: Absolutely, absolutely,
and of course it depends on
593
00:41:22,489 --> 00:41:24,200
the therapeutic approach.
594
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,039
Some therapeutic approaches focus more
on skill building as well, or someone may
595
00:41:29,039 --> 00:41:34,050
not have developed the skills that they
need to really thrive in interpersonal
596
00:41:34,050 --> 00:41:38,430
relationships, for example, or they
may have significant substance abuse
597
00:41:38,430 --> 00:41:43,290
backgrounds, or there may be all kinds of
things going on, and a great therapist is
598
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:49,079
tooled to be able to handle complexity and
to be able to recognize how those complex
599
00:41:49,109 --> 00:41:54,299
pieces act together and help somebody move
forward in their lives and their goals.
600
00:41:54,619 --> 00:41:58,039
I certainly would think that the
ultimate goal is very similar.
601
00:41:58,490 --> 00:42:03,910
We're all trying to help people in
education as well identify the things that
602
00:42:04,219 --> 00:42:10,700
they see as really valuable in their lives
and the capacities that they can see that
603
00:42:10,709 --> 00:42:17,999
they have to live a meaningful and joyful
life, that is our goal across the board.
604
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,940
I'm sure that is the goal of many
of our faculty as well, with the
605
00:42:20,940 --> 00:42:22,129
students that they work with.
606
00:42:22,219 --> 00:42:25,100
We just take a somewhat
different approach in doing so.
607
00:42:25,529 --> 00:42:29,209
I'm also thinking that listeners
may have one other question.
608
00:42:29,459 --> 00:42:33,670
You may have gotten them really excited,
so can I ask the question, if someone
609
00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:39,559
is looking for a good coach, what might
you suggest in how they could find one.
610
00:42:40,209 --> 00:42:44,530
KITTY: Well, I would say one thing to
know about coaches is that most of them
611
00:42:44,659 --> 00:42:51,199
do a free half an hour consult with their
coaching practice, so there's nothing
612
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:57,389
lost if you find someone who looks
interesting to you, and you just want to
613
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,720
have a conversation to see if you vibe
with that person and their approach.
614
00:43:02,159 --> 00:43:03,929
In terms of finding a coach.
615
00:43:04,339 --> 00:43:09,219
I would look for someone who has an
ICF credential personally, just because
616
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,269
having gone through that training, I
know that it's quite rigorous and quite
617
00:43:13,269 --> 00:43:17,529
demanding, and the people there have
been trained quite a bit with ethics,
618
00:43:17,549 --> 00:43:20,699
and they're trained to recognize the
difference between therapy and coaching,
619
00:43:20,699 --> 00:43:22,229
and know where their limits are.
620
00:43:22,729 --> 00:43:24,910
So, I would definitely
look for that as well.
621
00:43:25,389 --> 00:43:28,939
And I might just ask around a
little bit to see if anybody you
622
00:43:28,939 --> 00:43:30,709
know has had a great experience.
623
00:43:30,709 --> 00:43:34,839
I know that's how I found my career
coach that I had back in the day, that
624
00:43:34,839 --> 00:43:37,719
I had a really excellent experience
with, which was one of the things that
625
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:39,319
got me into coaching in the first place.
626
00:43:39,369 --> 00:43:43,080
So, Susan may have some better
advice than I do on that one.
627
00:43:43,279 --> 00:43:46,360
SUSAN: No, I think you
answered that really nicely.
628
00:43:46,539 --> 00:43:54,429
There is, I believe, a coach finder tool
on the ICF website that would be the whole
629
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:59,389
breadth of coaches all over the globe, so
that may be a deeper dive [LAUGHTER] than
630
00:43:59,389 --> 00:44:01,229
you'd want to do right at the beginning.
631
00:44:01,660 --> 00:44:07,319
KRISTIN: And I'll also double down on a
short consult session is a great idea.
632
00:44:07,509 --> 00:44:10,599
Sometimes people just don't
jive, and it's no reflection.
633
00:44:10,599 --> 00:44:14,609
The coach may be a fabulous coach, it
doesn't mean that the person requesting
634
00:44:14,610 --> 00:44:17,709
coaching is all screwed up because
they didn't jive with this coach.
635
00:44:17,709 --> 00:44:21,319
Sometimes there's just not a connection,
and it's not a reflection on either
636
00:44:21,319 --> 00:44:24,859
person, but it's worth that first
conversation to say, "You know, this just
637
00:44:24,860 --> 00:44:29,120
didn't seem to go. I'm going to just try
again,” because having a good connection
638
00:44:29,129 --> 00:44:30,830
can provide a really good foundation.
639
00:44:31,170 --> 00:44:31,729
SUSAN: That's right.
640
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,890
And coaches are typically very generous.
641
00:44:35,060 --> 00:44:41,819
I have also had other coaches make
referrals to people who might be
642
00:44:41,830 --> 00:44:45,669
better suited, for example, when
I was seeking out mentor coaches
643
00:44:45,780 --> 00:44:49,629
for my re-accreditation, and
I appreciated that generosity.
644
00:44:50,369 --> 00:44:53,449
KRISTIN: Tell us about your
experience of writing the book.
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00:44:54,189 --> 00:45:00,130
SUSAN: I would really like to praise
our contributors to this volume, not
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00:45:00,139 --> 00:45:08,239
least of which for being the most
organized, well-managed time writers
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00:45:08,299 --> 00:45:13,050
that I think have ever existed in a
co-edited collection of this size.
648
00:45:13,139 --> 00:45:20,980
It was such an interesting experience to
work with people who all sort of work with
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00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:26,220
other people about time management issues
and writing, because they were on it.
650
00:45:26,489 --> 00:45:33,469
No one had to be repeatedly nudged
into getting their submission in.
651
00:45:33,509 --> 00:45:39,699
It was a really smooth process, and it was
such an enjoyable experience to work with
652
00:45:39,729 --> 00:45:46,929
Kitty and Katie and Karen, because four
people is a nice group as a editing team.
653
00:45:47,019 --> 00:45:52,909
When one of us had a life got in the way
of being able to keep our balls rolling,
654
00:45:52,919 --> 00:45:57,779
the other three people would always pick
up the slack, and so I think we were
655
00:45:57,779 --> 00:46:04,200
able to make incredibly smooth progress
on getting this book to the press.
656
00:46:04,650 --> 00:46:07,429
JOHN: We always end with
a question, what's next?
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00:46:08,209 --> 00:46:12,849
SUSAN: I am actually heading full
force into this coaching world.
658
00:46:13,019 --> 00:46:17,599
As of this summer, I'll be leaving my
role as a director of Center for Teaching
659
00:46:17,599 --> 00:46:22,909
and Learning to focus on coaching for
individuals and for organizations, in
660
00:46:22,909 --> 00:46:28,299
addition to the speaking engagements
and workshop facilitating that I have
661
00:46:28,299 --> 00:46:33,019
been so honored to do with a number
of universities, my focus on active
662
00:46:33,019 --> 00:46:37,699
and embodied learning and my coaching
practice specifically offers an
663
00:46:37,699 --> 00:46:43,950
embodied approach, because I like to
conduct outdoor audio only sessions,
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00:46:44,020 --> 00:46:50,109
in which clients can be walking or
enjoying some fresh air to develop new
665
00:46:50,129 --> 00:46:52,519
perspectives and spending time outside.
666
00:46:52,849 --> 00:46:53,589
KRISTIN: Excellent.
667
00:46:54,039 --> 00:46:59,199
KITTY: And for me, I'm sort of in
the midst of a lot of reflection
668
00:46:59,199 --> 00:47:03,719
and planning for the academic year
here at the University of Richmond.
669
00:47:04,259 --> 00:47:09,799
So, I've been particularly
busy thinking about ways to
670
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:11,479
support folks in our mid-career.
671
00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:16,890
We revamped our early career support
programs with the Provost Office last
672
00:47:16,890 --> 00:47:21,709
year, and this year we're starting to
focus on mid-career folks, so really
673
00:47:21,729 --> 00:47:27,049
post-tenure, or for those not in a
tenure-line position, more advanced
674
00:47:27,099 --> 00:47:34,830
teaching associates, and so I last year
did a group coaching with the Associated
675
00:47:34,830 --> 00:47:39,060
Colleges of the South across all the
schools of that consortium, and we're
676
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,149
going to do one here at UR next year.
677
00:47:42,150 --> 00:47:45,520
So, I've been working a lot on that
and thinking about group coaching
678
00:47:45,549 --> 00:47:49,339
and how we can apply that more
effectively in my institution.
679
00:47:50,299 --> 00:47:51,480
KRISTIN: Sounds so interesting.
680
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:52,779
JOHN: Thank you both.
681
00:47:53,010 --> 00:47:56,920
It's great talking to you again, Susan,
and it's nice meeting you, Kitty.
682
00:47:57,049 --> 00:47:59,299
I really enjoyed reading
through your book.
683
00:47:59,299 --> 00:48:01,589
It's a really nice
collection of resources.
684
00:48:02,189 --> 00:48:03,099
KITTY: It's been a pleasure.
685
00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:04,920
SUSAN: Well, thank you.
686
00:48:05,459 --> 00:48:09,510
Been great to be featured on Tea
for Teaching, because it's a little
687
00:48:09,540 --> 00:48:14,230
outside of the normal topics, and so
we're so happy to spread the word.
688
00:48:14,529 --> 00:48:17,759
KITTY: And I've been a fan of Tea for
Teaching forever, so it's so exciting
689
00:48:17,779 --> 00:48:19,850
to finally make it on the show.
690
00:48:19,860 --> 00:48:19,920
[LAUGHTER]
691
00:48:21,539 --> 00:48:24,299
KRISTIN: Well, I would love to hear
about the group coaching and how
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00:48:24,299 --> 00:48:26,779
that goes, [LAUGHTER] but that's
just putting in a listener request.
693
00:48:28,430 --> 00:48:28,480
[LAUGHTER]
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00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:36,100
[MUSIC]
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00:48:38,489 --> 00:48:41,249
JOHN: If you've enjoyed this
podcast, please subscribe and
696
00:48:41,250 --> 00:48:45,289
leave a review on Apple Podcasts
or your favorite podcast service.
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00:48:45,849 --> 00:48:50,390
To continue the conversation, join us
on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.
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00:48:51,339 --> 00:48:53,959
REBECCA: You can find show
notes, transcripts and other
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00:48:53,959 --> 00:48:56,289
materials on teaforteaching.com.
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00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,289
Music by Michael Gary Brewer.
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00:48:59,290 --> 00:49:03,290
[MUSIC]