00;00;02;07 - 00;00;26;25
Speaker 1
Hi everyone. I'm Katie, host of Sea Keepers Voyages of Discovery. You might not think of the words intelligent, selective and vulnerable when you see sensationalized news of a shark attack or watch a movie that pits sharks against mankind. But that's exactly what great white sharks are. These apex predators have gained a reputation as endlessly hungry monsters that are to be feared at all costs.
00;00;26;27 - 00;00;48;18
Speaker 1
In reality, great white sharks are an incredible and ancient feat of evolution. Older than trees and possessing a keen sense of smell and sharp vision. Even in low light, they display counter shading. Their white bellies disappear into the light when looking at them from underneath, and their gray backs blend them into the shadows below. When looking down at them from above.
00;00;48;20 - 00;01;17;24
Speaker 1
Great white sharks are an inspiration for biomimicry, or the use of evolved features in nature to produce manmade technology. The scales are denticles on great white sharks can simultaneously enhance, lift and reduce drag, allowing them to swim efficiently through the water. Scientists have been using the design and aerodynamic mix of shark denticles to form more aerodynamic wetsuits, submarines and even paint for airplanes.
00;01;17;26 - 00;01;53;04
Speaker 1
Now to shed some light on a rumor. Great white sharks just aren't that interested in humans. Shark attacks do happen when sharks take exploratory bites, but fatalities from them are rare. The Florida museum of Natural History International Shark Attack File, which is a scientifically documented, comprehensive database of all known shark attacks since the early 1500s, reports that only ten people are killed by sharks annually, while a new study from 2023 showed that humans kill more than 80 million sharks each year.
00;01;53;06 - 00;02;05;13
Speaker 1
Now, great white sharks are classified as vulnerable by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature due to threats such as overfishing, habitat degradation and entanglement in fishing gear.
00;02;05;25 - 00;02;22;22
Speaker 1
This iconic species is more than just an apex predator. They regulate ocean ecosystems from the top down, ensuring species diversity and controlling prey species population by preying on weak and sick animals and ultimately acting as indicators of ocean health.
00;02;22;24 - 00;02;26;03
Speaker 1
There have been more efforts recently to protect great white sharks.
00;02;26;03 - 00;02;40;22
Speaker 1
Including implementing regulations on shark fishing and establishing marine protected areas where they can thrive. As we explore the remarkable world of great white sharks, it's crucial to recognize their intelligence, selective feeding behavior, and vulnerability.
00;02;42;02 - 00;02;48;28
Speaker 1
Joining us today are two individuals who will give us a firsthand account into the fascinating life of juvenile great white sharks.
00;02;48;28 - 00;02;53;14
Speaker 1
And the importance of protecting these iconic species for the health of our oceans.
00;02;53;26 - 00;03;11;05
Speaker 1
Doctor Chris Lowe is a professor in marine biology and the director of the Shark Lab at California State University, Long Beach, where he and his students work with acoustic and satellite telemetry techniques to study the movement, behavior, and physical of sharks, rays, and game fishes.
00;03;11;26 - 00;03;22;13
Speaker 1
Alongside Doctor Lowe, we're honored to be joined by Tom Peterson, the seasoned captain of the Valkyrie that carried the team on an unforgettable expedition to study these magnificent creatures
00;03;22;26 - 00;03;31;09
Speaker 1
with years of experience navigating the seas. Tom brings invaluable insights into the challenges and rewards of working with white sharks in their natural habitat.
00;03;31;25 - 00;03;46;15
Speaker 1
In September 2023, Doctor Lowe and Tom embarked on a three day expedition facilitated by the International sea keeper Society to study the behavior of juvenile white sharks, which are even less understood than their adult counterparts.
00;03;46;17 - 00;04;00;27
Speaker 1
Today, they'll share their experiences, discoveries, and perspectives from this expedition, offering us a glimpse into juvenile white sharks, mysterious lives and the importance of the boating community and marine research. Let's dive into our interview.
00;04;01;23 - 00;04;09;17
Speaker 1
Doctor Lowe, could you tell us a little bit about your background and about how you became interested in studying juvenile white sharks?
00;04;09;17 - 00;04;29;02
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, actually, I grew up on Martha's Vineyard on the East Coast. And, my grandfather was a commercial fisherman, and and his uncles were whalers. So I have a long history of, let's say, doing things in the marine environment. So I grew up fishing, and that was one of my favorite things to do as a kid.
00;04;29;05 - 00;04;48;24
Speaker 1
And I remember catching a shark and not knowing it was what it was. I was a horrible student, and I actually had to go to the library to figure out what it was, and I found a book on sharks, and that set the bug in me. So that got me started. And that was the first in my family to ever go to college, so people could not figure out what a marine biologist was.
00;04;48;24 - 00;05;06;11
Speaker 1
And do you get paid to do that? So it was it was an interesting adventure. I had to kind of figure things out on my own, but and then over time, I basically got to live my dream. This is something that I always dreamed about doing. And and I'm very fortunate that I've been able to do what I've been able to do.
00;05;06;13 - 00;05;24;23
Speaker 1
And working on white sharks was not planned. In fact, I swore I wouldn't work on white sharks. I always said they were overrated and they got too much credit, and they were the prima donnas of the shark world. Until I saw my first baby white shark. And I thought, that thing is just too damn cute.
00;05;26;10 - 00;05;33;06
Speaker 1
Oh. That's amazing. what about you, Tom? What's your background? And how long have you been captaining vessels?
00;05;33;06 - 00;05;55;19
Speaker 3
guess since the day I was born, I've been in, on or under the water, and, growing up, I was a marine biology major in school. I was a dive instructor in my early days. technically, I still am, but I just don't teach anymore. And, during all that, my younger days, I spent so much time on the water, on different boats.
00;05;55;19 - 00;06;19;17
Speaker 3
At some point in time, I started running them, professionally. And became a licensed captain and ran commercial dive boats, in my, actually my late teens, but, early 20s and, that, you know, my all my friends thought that when I die, I was gonna have fins on my feet, and, that that was my my lifestyle every day.
00;06;19;20 - 00;06;47;24
Speaker 3
And, but at some point in time, a drunk driver decided to alter my entire career. And, the, after severe accident that, resulted in, basically six months of learning to walk again. everything I had built up from a diving career outside of it, which was, post my marine biology days at school, evaporated,
00;06;48;00 - 00;06;52;14
Speaker 3
and due to, you know, just basically loss of business.
00;06;52;16 - 00;07;06;04
Speaker 3
And so while I was, feeling sorry for myself and trying to figure out what am I going to do for the rest of my life, I was approached by my father to see if I would help in some marketing ideas with, an insurance organization,
00;07;06;09 - 00;07;13;09
Speaker 3
to which I thought, oh, well, marketing sounds like fun and interesting. And he said, okay, now he need to learn about the insurance world.
00;07;13;13 - 00;07;36;15
Speaker 3
Oh, that's a trick. I see. but I really, enjoyed that part of the industry. and although it's not involved in the marine industry, I kept my, toe in the water, so to speak, and, continued to eventually I was able to dive again. But, now, as a recreational diver rather than an instructor
00;07;36;15 - 00;07;47;29
Speaker 3
and running boats and owning boats and then, these days, my, in an insurance business, funds all my fun, which is, being out on the water.
00;07;48;25 - 00;08;00;15
Speaker 1
So both of you have really had this passion for some sort of involvement with the marine ecosystem ingrained in you, it seems, and you both have really inspirational back stories. So thank you so much for sharing those with us.
00;08;00;28 - 00;08;05;17
Speaker 1
Can you both tell us a little bit about how you learned about Sea Keepers?
00;08;05;26 - 00;08;13;07
Speaker 3
well, let's see about, 15 years ago, I attended a sea keepers event and at the Fort Lauderdale boat show
00;08;13;08 - 00;08;37;08
Speaker 3
it was, I think I wasn't invited. Guest. If I remember. And, I attended and what what caught my attention was, the mission statement of, sea Keepers. And, you know, if you take it down to its basic element, what was kind of presented to me during that, that event was the understanding that
00;08;37;08 - 00;08;49;04
Speaker 3
the idea is around the world, marine sciences, research projects, funding keeps getting cut back more and more, as do a lot of research projects around the world.
00;08;49;07 - 00;09;18;21
Speaker 3
But one of the most expensive cost items for the marine research world is the cost of boats and transporting people and equipment to and from places. And sea keepers was a band of, yacht and super yacht owners who said, you know, we have kind of a vested interest in the waterways. And, you know, if we happen to be going to, a particular place and there's a group of scientists that need to go to that particular place, wouldn't that benefit all of us if we just took them?
00;09;18;23 - 00;09;42;06
Speaker 3
And, since we were going to go anyhow and that that again, and I kind of distilled it down to a very basic, concept, but it, it was, it was that intriguing of an idea that, sparked my interest in sea keepers. My wife's of my, both, rallied around the idea and, and here we are 15 years later, still heavily involved with sea keepers.
00;09;43;14 - 00;09;49;27
Speaker 1
Yeah. So you've been involved with us for a long time, but it's been exciting to see it kind of change and evolve over the years.
00;09;50;20 - 00;09;51;22
Speaker 3
Oh, most definitely.
00;09;52;00 - 00;09;53;24
Speaker 1
And what about you, Doctor Lowe?
00;09;54;11 - 00;10;19;17
Speaker 2
Yeah. So as Tom points out, and he, he understands very well, you know, the challenges that we face in doing marine sciences studies. the costs are getting higher. you know, we have a fleet of small boats, and I can't tell you how much money I spend just maintaining those and training people to use those. But if you're going to do certain types of marine science, sometimes you just need a bigger boat, and we simply can't afford them.
00;10;19;19 - 00;10;39;25
Speaker 2
So, when I first started working on some white shark projects here, we had some overnight trips that we wanted to do and we just couldn't, you know, my students, I. I'm get too old to sleep in a 17ft whaler on the deck. That's just getting too hard. my students can do it because they're young. But for me, it's brutal.
00;10;39;27 - 00;11;07;16
Speaker 2
So we we do 24 hour tracks, we put transmitters on sharks, and we follow them all night long. So the best case scenario is if you have what we call a mother ship, and, mother ship is basically a base. It's a mobile base on the water that we can tag a shark, track it from a small boat, but we can exchange crews and they can come back to someplace relatively comfortable and get a hot meal and a shower and a warm bunk and and that's something that we typically don't get in my field.
00;11;07;18 - 00;11;19;06
Speaker 2
So when I first started doing these projects, I started asking around some of our local marinas, do you know anybody who'd be interested in doing this? And that's how I found out about Sea Keepers, and that's how I got hooked up with Tom.
00;11;19;16 - 00;11;22;18
Speaker 1
So, word of mouth a bit, it seems that's really exciting.
00;11;23;08 - 00;11;44;27
Speaker 2
So I understand sea keepers is much bigger on the East coast and and on the West coast. It's it's not it's reach isn't as great but it's need is greater. So I'd love to, you know, continue to market it with among my colleagues because, you know, there's lots of folks out here that need to go to the Channel Islands or offshore islands and the costs of getting out there, it's just prohibitive.
00;11;44;27 - 00;11;57;04
Speaker 2
And and having vessels that are equipped and, and let's just say comfortable to do that is is part of the challenge. So I think something like Sea Keepers will be very appealing to a lot of my colleagues.
00;11;57;04 - 00;12;05;02
Speaker 1
I hope someday we'll have a West Coast branch. But I think until then, we do a lot of global networking. So we'll we'll keep the West Coast in mind.
00;12;05;10 - 00;12;18;21
Speaker 1
All right. Let's chat a little bit about the expedition, that you all went on in September 2023. So you all boarded Discovery Yacht Valkyrie to study juvenile white sharks off the coast of California?
00;12;18;24 - 00;12;23;06
Speaker 1
doctor Lowe, what were the specific objectives of this expedition?
00;12;24;07 - 00;12;47;02
Speaker 1
Well, that's always tough because when you have a really nice boat that you can use as a as a mothership, we have a slew of things we always want to do. And that could range from just going out and catching and tagging sharks. and then at the same time, you know, taking advantage of this large floating platform, you know, we have all these other side things that we like to do simultaneously.
00;12;47;02 - 00;13;08;07
Speaker 1
And I have a large crew. I've got about 15 to 20 people who fight for the opportunity to go out and do this. And some of them sleep on the deck and they don't care. They love it. but, you know, sometimes we're out. We're setting breaths which are better remote underwater video cameras. And those run for about two hours, and then somebody's got to pick them up, and then we download them, replace the cameras, put them back out.
00;13;08;09 - 00;13;28;02
Speaker 1
we have underwater receivers all along this area where we're trying to track these sharks. So a team of divers has to go up in and dive down, pick up those receivers, download them or replace them sometimes for flying drone missions. So we can actually do it from the Valkyrie, which is great. and then other times we're going to go out and do some fishing and tagging of things that white church might eat.
00;13;28;05 - 00;13;48;16
Speaker 1
So for us, we have a litany of things we want to do. Tom is an amazing captain and better yet, cook. Which is the other reason why my students love going out in the boat, because they get fed better than they do at home. and then, of course, you know, we're constantly working, so sometimes we plan 24 hour tracks.
00;13;48;19 - 00;14;08;18
Speaker 1
unfortunate. Last two trips out, we haven't been able to to keep a shark on a track. You know, it's shed tags. a special tag package that we have on them called Smart tags. So think of it like a Fitbit for sharks with a video camera. So we can kind of see what the shark sees and measure every motion it makes to try to figure out what they're doing.
00;14;08;20 - 00;14;20;27
Speaker 1
So, you know, our goal is to do that again this summer. Hopefully, if Tom's willing and the sharks are around, our goal is to go out and and get a bunch of these tracks and try to peer into the daily lives of a white shark.
00;14;21;00 - 00;14;29;09
Speaker 1
It seems like the Valkyrie was a really fitting platform for this expedition, and hopefully you and Tom will be able to get out there again and learn some more about these juveniles.
00;14;29;12 - 00;14;34;25
Speaker 1
how did the expedition contribute to the general understanding of great white sharks?
00;14;34;25 - 00;14;55;02
Speaker 2
Well, I think the biggest thing is it gives us an opportunity to be out there much longer than we normally would. Our typical workday in this site, is about seven hours. and then, you know, our our boats are small. We don't really have the capacity to stay out 24 hours easily. you know, we'd have to line the deck with fuel cans and things like that.
00;14;55;02 - 00;15;15;29
Speaker 2
And that's just not conducive to this kind of work. So we've learned a lot, in terms of how much we can actually do on site and get things done. we've been able to use our, autonomous underwater vehicle. So you can imagine Tom's yacht with something that looks like a torpedo, strapped to the back. And we can launch that and run that through the area.
00;15;16;00 - 00;15;35;02
Speaker 2
And measure the environmental conditions in 3D. that's a very expensive device. And, of course, you know, having a base to run that from and recharge that from is great. So all those things are things that we've been able to do on expeditions with Tom that we haven't been able to do. We have to do it one day at a time.
00;15;35;05 - 00;15;56;28
Speaker 2
And now we could do them all together. So now that we're starting to put all those pieces together, we're getting a much better idea of how these young white sharks are using these nursery areas. And it turns out that a lot of those times during the day, they're just being lazy. They're just swimming around, probably saving energy. And then at certain times of day they turn on and that's when they're feeding.
00;15;57;00 - 00;16;03;06
Speaker 2
So it's kind of interesting to see that sort of thing at night when we're not out there at night.
00;16;03;22 - 00;16;09;22
Speaker 1
So, what made you interested in this opportunity? How did you hear about the expedition with Doctor Lowe?
00;16;10;17 - 00;16;23;13
Speaker 3
Yeah, my connection was with, Tony Gilbert, who, I guess was, the first, communications with, Doctor Lowe and, then he. Tony contacted me to see if that was something
00;16;23;13 - 00;16;28;27
Speaker 3
that I would be interested in and be if, you know, I had the right equipment for which,
00;16;28;27 - 00;16;31;14
Speaker 3
both, checked off just fine.
00;16;31;14 - 00;16;34;25
Speaker 3
So, that that was the connection there.
00;16;34;29 - 00;16;39;19
Speaker 1
It seems like a great match between this specific project and your vessel in particular.
00;16;39;19 - 00;16;55;00
Speaker 3
Yes, I think so. it, you know, the, the requirements that Doctor Lowe needed was, we needed, be able to accommodate people for sleeping while at anchor, off the, the beach there in, in Carpinteria.
00;16;55;00 - 00;17;13;18
Speaker 3
also, platform for, their to, Boston Whalers to tie up to at night. and then, you know, being able to feed people, we, we would change people, every other day or every day, by having them swim through the surf, they would come out and park and then swim out to the boat.
00;17;13;18 - 00;17;20;16
Speaker 3
So we didn't have to go pick them up, in the area. But it was, I think, all around. It worked out just fine.
00;17;20;19 - 00;17;36;11
Speaker 1
Yeah, that sounds really fun. while we're on the topic, can you tell us a little bit more about any specific features of Valkyrie? Maybe the length, your history with this vessel, and maybe anything that contributed particularly to the expedition.
00;17;36;11 - 00;17;39;16
Speaker 3
I'm not sure there's anything overly special, about it,
00;17;39;16 - 00;17;43;28
Speaker 3
pertaining to this particular, expedition, but,
00;17;43;28 - 00;17;54;05
Speaker 3
Valkyrie is 65ft long, so it's a sizable vessel, which I think was the requirement because we needed, to be able to accommodate a number of people and lots of equipment.
00;17;54;08 - 00;18;26;13
Speaker 3
It has, a big open bow area. So launching, drones is is a very easy thing because there's nothing overhead on them. and it's got the, platform, and the flybridge area that sits up nice and high so you can look down and see, a lot more in the water. not so critical with, this particular expedition, but it's been useful in other things we've done with, like, whales and dolphins, where we've had to be able to see, much further distance out there.
00;18;26;13 - 00;18;47;11
Speaker 3
I think just being able to, to sit for any an extended period of times and most of our, trips with Doctor Lowe have been, 2 or 3 for, well, we tried a five day, and I think we lost a generator. so it ended up being like a four day trip, but, but still multiple days.
00;18;47;14 - 00;18;51;14
Speaker 3
the this the is equipped to accommodate all that.
00;18;51;29 - 00;18;57;08
Speaker 1
So this is not the only expedition you two have been on together. Then how many others have there been?
00;18;57;13 - 00;19;17;03
Speaker 3
probably 8 to 12, different expeditions. we, we were, involved early on with dropping drifters for, NOAA, through sea keepers when Sea Keepers was sponsoring that, and in fact, I think that was our first thing we ever did with them.
00;19;17;06 - 00;19;34;12
Speaker 3
there was a gentleman working on a PhD program who, perfected the DNA, process, for underwater, DNA testing. And, he, they, did a number of things on board Valkyrie.
00;19;34;12 - 00;19;49;04
Speaker 3
and at the time, he was being, he had grants from National Geographic's. And so we were all sworn to secrecy because this was all brand new technology, and they didn't want anybody to talk about it, show it anything else until it got perfected.
00;19;49;04 - 00;20;09;28
Speaker 3
And ultimately it did. So that was kind of fun because, we were, I think, a good year or two before the, most of the world knew much about Edna and, and, and then we've been involved with, both, whales and dolphin projects as well. So a number of different things.
00;20;10;01 - 00;20;24;06
Speaker 1
Now. Edna is a really interesting emerging topic in marine studies by sampling ocean water. Scientists can collect the mucus, feces, or tissue particles shed by organisms in the water column and can identify which species might be present at that location.
00;20;24;11 - 00;20;33;22
Speaker 1
And what about the number of of trips or expeditions the two of you have gone on together? Do you do you happen to know either of you?
00;20;34;00 - 00;20;35;13
Speaker 2
we've done. Three, I believe.
00;20;35;13 - 00;20;50;21
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think that's right. we we had to cancel one. We had a one, plan that the Mother Nature, intervened on that weekend and, and, so we had to postpone that one. But, yes, I believe that's the right number.
00;20;50;24 - 00;20;54;13
Speaker 1
Hopefully this year we'll we'll be able to fit in some more expeditions.
00;20;54;28 - 00;21;10;01
Speaker 1
so I want to talk a little bit about any of the discoveries that were made on this expedition. I know this is a piece that's helping, you know, create the puzzle of juvenile white shark behavior and their lifestyles, their place in the ecosystem.
00;21;10;03 - 00;21;20;05
Speaker 1
but were there any kind of unexpected discoveries made during this expedition? Maybe this is a question for Doctor Lowe that you would be excited to share with us.
00;21;20;24 - 00;21;41;12
Speaker 2
Sure. So, on the first one that we went out with and Tony was there to help, which was great, we did catch a juvenile white shark, and we did manage to get our smart tag on that animal. but we had some technical challenges. And again, this technology is is kind of new, so everybody's tweaking it and trying to come up with better attachment methods.
00;21;41;12 - 00;21;56;02
Speaker 2
And we don't want that to influence the animal, but we want it to be able to record what we need. So, you know, we caught a shark right off the bat and we got the tag on the shark, and we let the shark go, and we tracked it for about six hours, and it somehow managed to rub it off.
00;21;56;05 - 00;22;15;26
Speaker 2
And then the tag was off, but we couldn't tell where it was. It's designed to float to the surface. but this is in the middle of the night. And my students woke me up and said, okay, it's your turn to track, but we can't. The shark doesn't seem to be moving. It doesn't make sense. So then we would go out and we would kind of try to hone down the position and look for it and look for it.
00;22;15;26 - 00;22;33;25
Speaker 2
We couldn't find it. the next morning, dawn came. We realized it had not moved, so therefore it could no longer be in the shark. And what had happened was the tag had got tangled in kelp, so the shark had moved through kelp. Something that they always say sharks. But tricks will never go through kelp. That is totally not true.
00;22;33;27 - 00;22;51;28
Speaker 2
we've demonstrated that in a couple different ways, but this is one really good one, and a team of divers had to go down to recover it. So. So that was a important learning lesson. And it taught us a lot about if we're going to keep these kinds of tags on sharks that do go through kelp, we have to make them less snag proof.
00;22;52;00 - 00;23;03;18
Speaker 2
So we're working on modified designs to, to make the tag, less likely to get snagged up in kelp. And hopefully the next time we go out this summer, we'll be able to get a couple of those traction.
00;23;03;18 - 00;23;20;25
Speaker 1
And that's a really interesting myth about white sharks that you were able to disprove from that. going off of that, what are some other myths about great white sharks or maybe juveniles, either one that you often feel you have to dispel for people.
00;23;21;00 - 00;23;45;15
Speaker 2
Well, I think this particular aggregation site, the most white sharks we've seen at this one site in a single day was 40 individuals, and they ranged anywhere from five feet long, which is about a baby up to about nine feet long, which is considered an old toddler. you know, a nine foot long white shark. They're hanging out doing the same thing they did when they were five feet long babies.
00;23;45;18 - 00;24;05;28
Speaker 2
So these areas are discrete. The sharks just kind of move back and forth, back and forth all day long. They have to be feeding there. So right now we're looking at what they're feeding on. So using brushes and keychains and DNA and all these different tools to try to figure out what they're eating. But probably the biggest discovery we found came from using drones.
00;24;06;04 - 00;24;26;06
Speaker 2
And I had a student that flew drone surveys at all these sites. And what he noticed was that these white sharks would swim right underneath people all the time. Surfers, swimmers didn't even know the sharks are there, but we could see them from the air. And what we're learning is that the sharks basically treat people like flotsam. They're these objects that float at the surface.
00;24;26;09 - 00;24;50;24
Speaker 2
They clearly aren't food because they're not bothering people and they basically ignore them. So I think that that was a big revelation and we were able to scientifically quantify that. So in other words, we were able to demonstrate for the first time how often great whites are right next to people and completely ignoring them. So I could say that I could I could publish something and I could show people all the data in the world.
00;24;50;26 - 00;25;06;17
Speaker 2
But you know, what convinces them the most is looking at that video. When they see that video and they see it over and over again, they go, that shark pretends like that person is not even there. And we go, yes, this is happening all the time. In California, white sharks are swimming by people who are in the water all the time.
00;25;06;17 - 00;25;26;16
Speaker 2
They don't even know the sharks are there and they're not bothering anybody. So what these studies are showing is that our our perception of white sharks has been greatly changed based on images from Jaws and Shark Week and things like that. And it's simply not true. So they're getting a different perspective of what the sharks are really
00;25;27;15 - 00;25;42;08
Speaker 1
I love that. I think that's so necessary. And the more you understand something, the less you kind of fear it as well. Tom did. You're opinions on great white sharks change at all before and after these expeditions with Doctor Lowe?
00;25;42;11 - 00;25;45;28
Speaker 3
Significantly changed for the better after
00;25;45;28 - 00;26;03;05
Speaker 3
involved with this program, before, I would always give sharks any sharks, really, for that matter. But great whites especially, you know, you give them a wide berth, you know, ones in the area, you get out of the water, you get feed out of the water, that's going to come up.
00;26;03;05 - 00;26;23;16
Speaker 3
And and that has that potential. And we used to say, sure. great whites are the kind of sharks that bite come and come back and get you again, you know, type of thing. I mean, that that's, doctor. That's right. I mean, this this started because of the movie jaws and, Yeah, it was, I my first time out there,
00;26;23;16 - 00;26;40;11
Speaker 3
you know, watching that, the video is, as, Doctor Lowe said was just, a total eye opener because they're in 10 or 15ft of water and you'll see the shark from the drone go right under them. And the the surfers have no idea that this thing just swam underneath them.
00;26;40;14 - 00;26;58;20
Speaker 3
And then the other thing that that surprised me with the great whites is that, if you're in the water, like on a surfboard and they're swimming and they may or may not see you, but if you turn quick, you scare them. Oh, now, who in the right mind has ever heard of a great white getting scared of somebody?
00;26;58;20 - 00;27;02;11
Speaker 3
But they do. They. They spook real, by that movement.
00;27;02;11 - 00;27;34;05
Speaker 3
now, from my understanding, also with the project being juveniles, this, you know, their primary food sources is below them. It's the skates and rays on the bottom. So they're not yet looking up for their food source, like seals and sea lions. so when that transition happens, I think you have to take them with a little bit, different, approach, but but no, I, I really changed my perspective on how, great whites, number one, how many and two,
00;27;34;05 - 00;27;36;10
Speaker 3
close around.
00;27;36;12 - 00;27;38;21
Speaker 3
they are on the beaches in California.
00;27;39;14 - 00;27;45;19
Speaker 3
I share one other quick little story. So they that that first weekend first time we were out
00;27;45;19 - 00;28;02;03
Speaker 3
you know I'm sitting there looking at that because the these research folks they also drop down in the water, to collect the data from the, recorders that are underwater. And yeah, I'm sitting there going with all these great whites, these guys are out there.
00;28;02;09 - 00;28;24;17
Speaker 3
Well, you know what? What every one of them with, these researchers did in the afternoon after the day was kind of done. they jump off the boat, go swimming. So it's like, are you kidding with all those great whites? because they're not they're not really, a threat, like, like we would think they would be.
00;28;24;20 - 00;28;29;10
Speaker 3
So. Yeah, very, very different experience, seeing it firsthand.
00;28;29;13 - 00;28;31;02
Speaker 1
Did you ever jump in?
00;28;31;03 - 00;28;53;05
Speaker 3
Oh, heck no. No, no, no. The answer is I don't have a problem jumping in, but, I you have to remember that my my duties was making sure everybody else was safe, in and around the the boat stuff. So, my, my time was not necessarily in the recreational mode. It was, more of, being, on duty.
00;28;53;14 - 00;29;07;14
Speaker 1
Can you describe a little bit what those duties were and how your presence on this? I mean, apart from hosting the expedition, which is a huge help. What else were you able to contribute to this expedition, Tom?
00;29;08;00 - 00;29;36;04
Speaker 3
hosting is is kind of a, hard term for me to to come by because to me, I'm just a small piece in this whole puzzle. the the project is, is really the, you know, the, the, the shark research is really the focus. That's that's the main program. And Doctor Lowe, you know, has to, make sure everybody's got something to do, make sure they're all, got the equipment.
00;29;36;04 - 00;30;02;03
Speaker 3
They need everything, you know? And so he's running the whole operations there. My job was purely, provide a platform to, make sure everybody, was safe and fed and that that's really it. So. So it's, from my perspective, it's just a small piece in the whole big puzzle that that took place that weekend or during those expeditions.
00;30;02;05 - 00;30;06;21
Speaker 3
but, but, that's purely as just, making sure everything is working.
00;30;06;25 - 00;30;07;19
Speaker 1
What personal
00;30;07;19 - 00;30;11;10
Speaker 1
gains did you get from being a part of this expedition?
00;30;11;10 - 00;30;18;14
Speaker 3
learning, meeting new people, enjoying the interactions with, a lot of very, very nice people.
00;30;18;14 - 00;30;25;26
Speaker 3
enjoy, just being out on the water. so, you know, it's definitely a win win for me.
00;30;26;02 - 00;30;28;13
Speaker 2
So I think Tom's underselling his role.
00;30;28;18 - 00;30;31;19
Speaker 1
Yeah, maybe you can you can advocate for him a little bit,
00;30;31;26 - 00;30;54;11
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Because, you know, my students, you know, they're good small boat operators. They're good divers. You know, they're used to working, you know, in close quarters and things like that and having specific tasks to do. And they and safety is baked in. We spend huge amounts of time focusing on safety and, and and even though we know there are sharks around, we're always cognizant.
00;30;54;11 - 00;31;14;14
Speaker 2
And everyone is trained in wilderness first aid. They all know what to do in case there's trauma. you know Tom's role as is captain of his own ship. And everybody's safety is really important. And the students haven't had a lot of ship time, so they've been out in lots of small boats, but they haven't spent time on ships.
00;31;14;16 - 00;31;40;09
Speaker 2
And I think Tom taught them a lot about seamanship, general seamanship, how to operate bigger vessels, how to be safe on bigger vessels, the kind of technology that is common now on bigger vessels, and how it's a game changer. So for many of them, as their careers progress, some of them may work on bigger ships. And the experience that they got from working with Tom was great, and it's very casual.
00;31;40;09 - 00;32;04;26
Speaker 2
And Tom, you may not be as aware of how influential you were in that. but I can tell you my students walked away being better sailors as a result of the experience of being on the boat with you. And it's just it oozed. So I think, you know, that's the best kind of learning experience. And again, you know, they're they're learning to you know, these are big operations.
00;32;04;26 - 00;32;21;09
Speaker 2
We have a lot of moving parts. And safety has to be a key. And Tom was important in making sure they understood that even while you're out doing the things that you know that you're doing, there are other layers for safety. So, for example, everybody had to do an anchor watch. Some of them didn't even know what anchor watch was.
00;32;21;12 - 00;32;33;04
Speaker 2
But but learning that, having that experience, knowing what to do in those conditions is something that never had to do before, because they go out in small boats. So I think there's it was a great learning experience for many of them.
00;32;33;08 - 00;32;40;24
Speaker 1
That's cool. It's so valuable for budding marine biologists. So, Tom, you need to toot your own horn a little bit more.
00;32;41;10 - 00;32;42;01
Speaker 1
now.
00;32;42;01 - 00;32;56;17
Speaker 3
I feel I'm just a small piece in the overall puzzle there, but, but, ducklo. Thank you very much. I appreciate the kind words. I'm just doing what I enjoy, and and, glad to be part of the project.
00;32;56;26 - 00;33;17;26
Speaker 1
And that's quite a bonus as well, to get to do something where you're educating younger students and then also getting to experience something you might not have otherwise, getting to be part of a scientific expedition. And, the scientists and getting to go on a private yacht. I think those are both really cool experiences that the two worlds don't often get.
00;33;17;26 - 00;33;22;14
Speaker 1
So it's a really cool mismatch of of worlds.
00;33;22;27 - 00;33;41;19
Speaker 2
think we, we shocked Tom the first time when we showed up with all our gear. We had so much gear and electronics. His poor generator was like, oh my God, I have to charge all these things. So, you know, it's it's always a shocker when we show up because we've got, like, a truck full of gear.
00;33;41;19 - 00;34;07;06
Speaker 2
We had fishing nets and robots and drones and all this electronics. So, you know, we really appreciate him accommodating us with all that stuff. And we learned that to be more successful, we had to scale back our expectations in terms of what we could accomplish. But but nonetheless, you know, every time we go out, there's a there's a lot of equipment that has to be maintained and charged.
00;34;07;06 - 00;34;11;13
Speaker 2
And Tom had a great platform for supporting that.
00;34;11;16 - 00;34;20;10
Speaker 3
yeah. And and it's something I, I learned with doing some of these, expeditions is I'm going to need a bigger boat.
00;34;22;17 - 00;34;32;21
Speaker 1
while we're on the topic of collaborations, were there any aspects of the expedition where it was valuable to have sea keepers involved and present on board?
00;34;33;03 - 00;34;58;29
Speaker 2
Sure. I would say it was great having Tony out to see, you know, kind of how we operate. And I know that most of the work that Sea Keepers does is on the East coast. The West Coast has its own, differences and charms and things like that. But, I think having him out there was really good for him to see how well we work together, first of all, and then to be part of it, I think he got, you know, have some fun and get out there.
00;34;58;29 - 00;35;12;04
Speaker 2
And, we even got him in the water a couple times. He was a little apprehensive about that. But I eventually get the water. I think he lost some fins or something. Oh, no. yeah. But, Matt, it was so good. He came up twice.
00;35;12;12 - 00;35;20;21
Speaker 1
It's a great learning opportunity to to have a sea keeper present on board. And we can learn more about how to communicate the science that we're learning about as well.
00;35;20;21 - 00;35;36;28
Speaker 1
which is also a goal of this podcast. You know, we want to be able to share with people, not just results from that experience, but what actually happened and what it's like to be a marine biologist and to get to be in the private sector, helping out that that particular field.
00;35;36;28 - 00;35;42;08
Speaker 1
So, so yeah, it's it's really cool to get to be involved in those expeditions.
00;35;42;12 - 00;36;00;09
Speaker 1
I'd like to talk about some of your most memorable moments from this expedition. So, Tom, is there anything, that sticks out to you in particular? Any kind of surprising? I mean, apart from everybody just jumping in with the sharks. What did you take away from this experience?
00;36;00;18 - 00;36;16;06
Speaker 3
Well, I, I think I said a lot of it earlier, and that's just, the taking. What perception is the norm out there and turning that upside down and realizing that that's not the way it really is.
00;36;16;06 - 00;36;24;09
Speaker 3
the other thing is to, I guess, this, you know, some of these juveniles are, as Doctor Lowe said, nine, ten feet long.
00;36;24;14 - 00;36;51;06
Speaker 3
I think that that is a big shark. When it comes swimming by and it's a baby, and you know that. That's quite frightening. I, I think one surprise that I think surprised everybody was the last day of the last one. there had been rumors of a like, 13, 14ft shark swimming around and, and for, I guess for quite some time, they had been hearing those rumors like that, and, the last day.
00;36;51;06 - 00;37;07;16
Speaker 3
And in fact, I think it's almost like the last hour we were on the water. yeah. like a 14 footer came swimming by and it was right up against their, the Boston Whaler. And there's a great picture of it where it's almost as big as the whaler. And, you know, I just kind of like.
00;37;07;18 - 00;37;15;26
Speaker 3
Oh, there a big one out here. So that may be a new research project.
00;37;16;13 - 00;37;19;22
Speaker 1
That is really cool. You get to be up close and personal.
00;37;19;22 - 00;37;21;03
Speaker 3
to see. Yeah.
00;37;21;10 - 00;37;29;00
Speaker 1
Hey. Cool. And what about for you, Doctor Lowe? What would you say was your most memorable experience coming away from this?
00;37;29;02 - 00;37;49;07
Speaker 2
Well, for me, it's, it's having the opportunity to have all my staff or most of my staff, not all of them, out on the water at one time. And we can talk about things that, you know, you know, we may not be able to talk about the same way in the lab just because everybody's busy doing everything and getting the whole group together stuff.
00;37;49;09 - 00;38;11;25
Speaker 2
and they love to do this. So for me, it's the opportunity to get my get to know my students better because you're living with them for four days in close quarters. Right. and then, as Tom points out, it was the last trip, the last day, the last hour, you know, we had a shark. You know, we we anchor the Valkyrie a little bit further off shore to kind of stay out of the fray.
00;38;11;27 - 00;38;30;06
Speaker 2
and literally a shark swam right up to the boat while we're eating lunch, ran up to the boat, and then my students threw the drone up in the air and we're tracking it. And then another team went out, jumped in the whaler with with tagging equipment, and went over and tagged that shark. So, you know, I was thinking, okay, normally we have to go searching for him.
00;38;30;06 - 00;38;37;05
Speaker 2
We might have to get a kilometer or two away from the boat. Now they're coming right to the boat. I was thinking, that makes this job really easy.
00;38;37;12 - 00;38;46;22
Speaker 1
I mean, one thing to know about science is that it's not predictable. You just need to be there to capture the opportunity. And it's great to see that Tom and the Valkyrie were able to do that for you all.
00;38;47;01 - 00;39;00;27
Speaker 1
How has the partnership with Sea Keepers impacted your perspective on supporting scientific research on your vessel? I know you mentioned you. You really enjoyed it, and you would like to do it again. But if you could elaborate on that a little bit, that would be great.
00;39;01;23 - 00;39;09;15
Speaker 3
again, I would go back to the the mission of Sea Keepers and that's trying to put larger vessels, yachts and,
00;39;09;15 - 00;39;42;29
Speaker 3
super yachts together with the scientific community. it ends up being a win win situation. it, I mean, from my perspective, it it's really neat to be able to provide, you know, even a little bit of assistance to these types of projects, and make me personally feel good, but it also, I think it, makes me intellectually feel better, because I'm learning as I go along.
00;39;42;29 - 00;39;52;10
Speaker 3
is an enjoyable aspect of the scientific world, you know, where, where we're, involved in, as a sea keeper.
00;39;52;29 - 00;39;58;17
Speaker 1
So would you encourage other private yacht owners to participate in an expedition like this?
00;39;58;20 - 00;40;22;13
Speaker 3
100%? it's it's, again, just from their personal perspective, it's very, fulfilling and satisfying to know that you've been involved in, in a particular project, from a global perspective on the scientific world, it's invaluable to be able to offer that assistance. so again, it turns into a win win situation.
00;40;22;13 - 00;40;30;01
Speaker 3
people who want to happy to be involved that have maybe two smaller boats that maybe they can be involved in other ways.
00;40;30;04 - 00;40;45;02
Speaker 3
you know, whether it's, helping out on the bigger yachts or, providing, voluntary assistance in other projects that are going on. so it doesn't necessarily matter how big your boat is, it matters of just being involved.
00;40;45;25 - 00;41;08;23
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. We we have a lot of different programs that boats of any size can get involved with. We do get a lot, a lot of questions about if someone's boat will be suitable for an expedition because they might be smaller, but we have a lot of smaller boats that go out and do day trips. We've been learning a lot about our our local environment of Biscayne Bay here in Miami, so really anybody can be involved.
00;41;08;23 - 00;41;23;12
Speaker 1
It does take a unique vessel like yours to do something like, you know, a three, 4 or 5 day expedition, but it is really cool. Hopefully we're expanding those opportunities so any vessel can be involved in some sort of scientific project, no matter the size.
00;41;24;14 - 00;41;35;26
Speaker 1
doctor Lowe, can you tell us a little bit about how the general public can engage with any of the findings from this particular research expedition, or from any of the scientific research that you do?
00;41;36;12 - 00;42;03;26
Speaker 2
Yeah. So our our project is funded by the state of California. And, and it was founded because of the increase in white shark population, concern for public safety. So, for us, it's absolutely essential that the science that we learn gets out to the public as soon as possible. And, and there are opportunities for the, you know, the local community to participate, whether it's doing like what Tom's doing and helping us, taking us out in his boat.
00;42;03;29 - 00;42;27;17
Speaker 2
we have other partners who have smaller boats that take us out diving to local sites regularly, that save us from dragging our own 17ft whaler along a hundred miles of Le freeway. Right. So so those are those are all huge contributions. They're really important. And they do it voluntarily. So their interest is there. And we're always looking for new people to partner with us.
00;42;27;17 - 00;42;47;11
Speaker 2
In that sense. And it basically helps the entire community because it's funded by taxpayers, the state of California. The other thing is, you know, you don't even have to have a boat to participate. A lot of times we have other community members that just want to be part of what we do, and they they volunteer and they come in and help clean gear in the lab.
00;42;47;18 - 00;43;01;07
Speaker 2
They help paint buoys that we need to put out that are listening for tag sharks, little things like that. But they matter. They really matter. And they learn. They learn. They like being around the students. The students are great bunch. They're very hardworking.
00;43;01;07 - 00;43;03;20
Speaker 2
they're very motivated and they want to learn from other people.
00;43;03;20 - 00;43;09;02
Speaker 2
So I think there's lots of opportunities there in the scientific community that are largely untapped.
00;43;09;02 - 00;43;28;26
Speaker 2
Citizen science is growing, so there are always new ways that people can contribute. Where we have a cadre of people that fly drones who share video data with us, and we have the capacity to process that, and they're very interested in participating. So it all depends on where their interests lie and what they like to do and, and the time they have available.
00;43;28;26 - 00;43;57;26
Speaker 3
There's one other area that, Doctor Lowe the Shark Lab, routinely does public, forums. They'll set up a booth or display out on the beach or somewhere in the area. And that takes people and that takes people to talk to people. So, again, it could be someone who's not necessarily even, water related, but, public relations oriented or at least likes, likes working with the public.
00;43;58;05 - 00;44;16;16
Speaker 1
So you all are getting out into the community sharing this this research. But you're also bringing people in and letting people be involved in even a small aspect of the research. So that's really great community involvement. And hopefully we can dispel some of the rumors around sharks in general with with more of that.
00;44;16;18 - 00;44;36;18
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And that and that's a big part of our program. So our public outreach and our K through 12 programs, are really key. So, you know, our goal is to get the science that we're learning as soon as possible out to the public, because if not, why are we doing it? So we work very closely with all the ocean lifeguards in California.
00;44;36;18 - 00;44;53;02
Speaker 2
They're one of our primary clients because they're the ones that deal with this on a day to day basis. So they're important research partners with us as well. And then, of course, you know, as Tom was pointing out, we have our outreach program where we go out, we have what are called shark shacks that pop up along the beaches.
00;44;53;04 - 00;45;00;21
Speaker 2
And we have a bunch of people, students, volunteers that are trained to, you know, inform the public about what we know about sharks and beach safety.
00;45;00;21 - 00;45;08;15
Speaker 2
our K through 12 program, we call, sharks and robots. And we figure if we can't get kids interested in science, technology, engineering and math
00;45;08;16 - 00;45;09;27
Speaker 2
using sharks and robots,
00;45;09;27 - 00;45;10;24
Speaker 2
we're not doing our job.
00;45;10;26 - 00;45;16;01
Speaker 2
So, we have a group that goes out to schools and delivers a curriculum that we've developed.
00;45;16;08 - 00;45;24;10
Speaker 2
And then, of course, we have our own comic book series. So we have comic books on beach safety and marine pollution and how to be a shark scientist.
00;45;24;10 - 00;45;31;15
Speaker 1
do you have? Something that's aimed at different aspects of shark biology. Shark conservation? In these comic books.
00;45;31;21 - 00;45;49;02
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And and remember, kids can smell education a mile away. So it has to be fun. It has to be engaging. It has to have teenage drama, all those great things. Right. But but it's actually a very effective tool. We found that kids are learning a lot from reading these comic books because they're engaging.
00;45;49;14 - 00;45;56;01
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's a very important aspect of science communication, and it's really cool that you're able to share this information with young audiences.
00;45;56;07 - 00;46;03;12
Speaker 1
Has this experience impacted your perspective on the importance of the private sector being involved in marine research?
00;46;03;12 - 00;46;31;23
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. Because as Tom pointed out at the beginning, it's hard in science to find money to do the work that we need to do. And quite often, depending on how relatable that science is to the general public, that's even a bigger challenge. But if we do have things relatable and sharks are pretty relatable to the general public, our challenge is how to get funding to keep the research going, but make sure that people see the benefit of that.
00;46;31;26 - 00;46;52;03
Speaker 2
So I think that's where the private sector helps. Like right now our our state funding is not looking very promising because the state budget is not good this year and we have to keep our program running. So we're very dependent on private and foundation support. And because of the technology we use, we cover the entire coast of California.
00;46;52;05 - 00;47;08;09
Speaker 2
it's an expensive program to maintain. So we need $7 billion to keep us operating for the next five years, or else we're going to have to roll up the carpet and, you know, start phasing things out. And I hate to see that happen because we've made great progress.
00;47;08;14 - 00;47;33;28
Speaker 1
Well, we'll work on expanding our community on the West Coast. I know it's big shoes for Tom to fill, to do every single expedition with you all. So maybe we could have a fleet out there doing this type of work. And, everything you all have done has been so influential and so educational. So it's been really great to see this collaboration come to fruition and to see the the partnership that you've had, the two of you throughout this.
00;47;34;03 - 00;47;39;14
Speaker 1
are there any other acknowledgments or final thoughts that you all would like to share? Before we wrap up?
00;47;39;14 - 00;48;07;25
Speaker 2
Well, I would like to thank Sea Keepers. I'm so thankful that I stumbled across them and and I can't tell you how great has been to work with Tom. So for me, that has been the pleasure. I hope we can keep going out. I hope you grow on the West Coast because I have a lot of colleagues that do really cool marine things that could always benefit from from having a good, safe, you know, adequate boat for what they need to do.
00;48;07;25 - 00;48;13;24
Speaker 2
And I think there's plenty of those around. We just need to get some of those boaters involved in sea keepers.
00;48;13;28 - 00;48;37;02
Speaker 3
Yeah. And and I have to figure out a way I can retire. So I can do this more often because, I do thoroughly enjoy it. but, yeah, working with the Shark lab has been a great, great pleasure on my end. Doctor Lowe is fantastic. All of his students, and and, lab assistants are just, very, very nice people.
00;48;37;02 - 00;48;47;22
Speaker 3
And, I really enjoy just being around them, so I feel privileged, to be a, again, a small part of the overall picture, but, it's been terrific.
00;48;47;22 - 00;49;07;18
Speaker 1
And I feel very privileged just to hear you all talk about your experience. So this has been an amazing conversation. I've learned so much both about white sharks and the value of privately owned vessels in marine research. So thank you both so much for joining for this discussion, and I really look forward to working with you both again soon.
00;49;07;28 - 00;49;09;08
Speaker 3
As thanks, Katie.
00;49;09;10 - 00;49;11;22
Speaker 2
Yeah thank you Katie. Really appreciate it.
00;49;13;16 - 00;49;33;20
Speaker 1
A huge thanks to Doctor Chris Lowe and Captain Tom Petersen for sharing their experience with us today, and we can't wait to see what unfolds on their next expedition. I hope after today's episode, you're a little less fearful and a little more fascinated by these ancient and intelligent creatures that have been vital to our ocean ecosystems for millions of years.
00;49;33;23 - 00;50;02;05
Speaker 1
In our next episode, we're taking a trip to the Bahamas to study one of the most important and threatened animals in our oceans. We'll chat with an amazing team of scientists at the frontline of coral restoration research, diving deep into their efforts to save these precious ecosystems. For more information about our expeditions, including papers published from the data collected, head to the scientists led expeditions page on Sea keepers.org.
00;50;02;08 - 00;50;15;15
Speaker 1
Stay tuned for another captivating episode of Sea Keeper's Voyages of Discovery, where we'll continue our journey to research, educate, protect and restore. Until next time. Fair winds and following seas.
Speaker 1
Hi everyone. I'm Katie, host of Sea Keepers Voyages of Discovery. You might not think of the words intelligent, selective and vulnerable when you see sensationalized news of a shark attack or watch a movie that pits sharks against mankind. But that's exactly what great white sharks are. These apex predators have gained a reputation as endlessly hungry monsters that are to be feared at all costs.
00;00;26;27 - 00;00;48;18
Speaker 1
In reality, great white sharks are an incredible and ancient feat of evolution. Older than trees and possessing a keen sense of smell and sharp vision. Even in low light, they display counter shading. Their white bellies disappear into the light when looking at them from underneath, and their gray backs blend them into the shadows below. When looking down at them from above.
00;00;48;20 - 00;01;17;24
Speaker 1
Great white sharks are an inspiration for biomimicry, or the use of evolved features in nature to produce manmade technology. The scales are denticles on great white sharks can simultaneously enhance, lift and reduce drag, allowing them to swim efficiently through the water. Scientists have been using the design and aerodynamic mix of shark denticles to form more aerodynamic wetsuits, submarines and even paint for airplanes.
00;01;17;26 - 00;01;53;04
Speaker 1
Now to shed some light on a rumor. Great white sharks just aren't that interested in humans. Shark attacks do happen when sharks take exploratory bites, but fatalities from them are rare. The Florida museum of Natural History International Shark Attack File, which is a scientifically documented, comprehensive database of all known shark attacks since the early 1500s, reports that only ten people are killed by sharks annually, while a new study from 2023 showed that humans kill more than 80 million sharks each year.
00;01;53;06 - 00;02;05;13
Speaker 1
Now, great white sharks are classified as vulnerable by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature due to threats such as overfishing, habitat degradation and entanglement in fishing gear.
00;02;05;25 - 00;02;22;22
Speaker 1
This iconic species is more than just an apex predator. They regulate ocean ecosystems from the top down, ensuring species diversity and controlling prey species population by preying on weak and sick animals and ultimately acting as indicators of ocean health.
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Speaker 1
There have been more efforts recently to protect great white sharks.
00;02;26;03 - 00;02;40;22
Speaker 1
Including implementing regulations on shark fishing and establishing marine protected areas where they can thrive. As we explore the remarkable world of great white sharks, it's crucial to recognize their intelligence, selective feeding behavior, and vulnerability.
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Speaker 1
Joining us today are two individuals who will give us a firsthand account into the fascinating life of juvenile great white sharks.
00;02;48;28 - 00;02;53;14
Speaker 1
And the importance of protecting these iconic species for the health of our oceans.
00;02;53;26 - 00;03;11;05
Speaker 1
Doctor Chris Lowe is a professor in marine biology and the director of the Shark Lab at California State University, Long Beach, where he and his students work with acoustic and satellite telemetry techniques to study the movement, behavior, and physical of sharks, rays, and game fishes.
00;03;11;26 - 00;03;22;13
Speaker 1
Alongside Doctor Lowe, we're honored to be joined by Tom Peterson, the seasoned captain of the Valkyrie that carried the team on an unforgettable expedition to study these magnificent creatures
00;03;22;26 - 00;03;31;09
Speaker 1
with years of experience navigating the seas. Tom brings invaluable insights into the challenges and rewards of working with white sharks in their natural habitat.
00;03;31;25 - 00;03;46;15
Speaker 1
In September 2023, Doctor Lowe and Tom embarked on a three day expedition facilitated by the International sea keeper Society to study the behavior of juvenile white sharks, which are even less understood than their adult counterparts.
00;03;46;17 - 00;04;00;27
Speaker 1
Today, they'll share their experiences, discoveries, and perspectives from this expedition, offering us a glimpse into juvenile white sharks, mysterious lives and the importance of the boating community and marine research. Let's dive into our interview.
00;04;01;23 - 00;04;09;17
Speaker 1
Doctor Lowe, could you tell us a little bit about your background and about how you became interested in studying juvenile white sharks?
00;04;09;17 - 00;04;29;02
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, actually, I grew up on Martha's Vineyard on the East Coast. And, my grandfather was a commercial fisherman, and and his uncles were whalers. So I have a long history of, let's say, doing things in the marine environment. So I grew up fishing, and that was one of my favorite things to do as a kid.
00;04;29;05 - 00;04;48;24
Speaker 1
And I remember catching a shark and not knowing it was what it was. I was a horrible student, and I actually had to go to the library to figure out what it was, and I found a book on sharks, and that set the bug in me. So that got me started. And that was the first in my family to ever go to college, so people could not figure out what a marine biologist was.
00;04;48;24 - 00;05;06;11
Speaker 1
And do you get paid to do that? So it was it was an interesting adventure. I had to kind of figure things out on my own, but and then over time, I basically got to live my dream. This is something that I always dreamed about doing. And and I'm very fortunate that I've been able to do what I've been able to do.
00;05;06;13 - 00;05;24;23
Speaker 1
And working on white sharks was not planned. In fact, I swore I wouldn't work on white sharks. I always said they were overrated and they got too much credit, and they were the prima donnas of the shark world. Until I saw my first baby white shark. And I thought, that thing is just too damn cute.
00;05;26;10 - 00;05;33;06
Speaker 1
Oh. That's amazing. what about you, Tom? What's your background? And how long have you been captaining vessels?
00;05;33;06 - 00;05;55;19
Speaker 3
guess since the day I was born, I've been in, on or under the water, and, growing up, I was a marine biology major in school. I was a dive instructor in my early days. technically, I still am, but I just don't teach anymore. And, during all that, my younger days, I spent so much time on the water, on different boats.
00;05;55;19 - 00;06;19;17
Speaker 3
At some point in time, I started running them, professionally. And became a licensed captain and ran commercial dive boats, in my, actually my late teens, but, early 20s and, that, you know, my all my friends thought that when I die, I was gonna have fins on my feet, and, that that was my my lifestyle every day.
00;06;19;20 - 00;06;47;24
Speaker 3
And, but at some point in time, a drunk driver decided to alter my entire career. And, the, after severe accident that, resulted in, basically six months of learning to walk again. everything I had built up from a diving career outside of it, which was, post my marine biology days at school, evaporated,
00;06;48;00 - 00;06;52;14
Speaker 3
and due to, you know, just basically loss of business.
00;06;52;16 - 00;07;06;04
Speaker 3
And so while I was, feeling sorry for myself and trying to figure out what am I going to do for the rest of my life, I was approached by my father to see if I would help in some marketing ideas with, an insurance organization,
00;07;06;09 - 00;07;13;09
Speaker 3
to which I thought, oh, well, marketing sounds like fun and interesting. And he said, okay, now he need to learn about the insurance world.
00;07;13;13 - 00;07;36;15
Speaker 3
Oh, that's a trick. I see. but I really, enjoyed that part of the industry. and although it's not involved in the marine industry, I kept my, toe in the water, so to speak, and, continued to eventually I was able to dive again. But, now, as a recreational diver rather than an instructor
00;07;36;15 - 00;07;47;29
Speaker 3
and running boats and owning boats and then, these days, my, in an insurance business, funds all my fun, which is, being out on the water.
00;07;48;25 - 00;08;00;15
Speaker 1
So both of you have really had this passion for some sort of involvement with the marine ecosystem ingrained in you, it seems, and you both have really inspirational back stories. So thank you so much for sharing those with us.
00;08;00;28 - 00;08;05;17
Speaker 1
Can you both tell us a little bit about how you learned about Sea Keepers?
00;08;05;26 - 00;08;13;07
Speaker 3
well, let's see about, 15 years ago, I attended a sea keepers event and at the Fort Lauderdale boat show
00;08;13;08 - 00;08;37;08
Speaker 3
it was, I think I wasn't invited. Guest. If I remember. And, I attended and what what caught my attention was, the mission statement of, sea Keepers. And, you know, if you take it down to its basic element, what was kind of presented to me during that, that event was the understanding that
00;08;37;08 - 00;08;49;04
Speaker 3
the idea is around the world, marine sciences, research projects, funding keeps getting cut back more and more, as do a lot of research projects around the world.
00;08;49;07 - 00;09;18;21
Speaker 3
But one of the most expensive cost items for the marine research world is the cost of boats and transporting people and equipment to and from places. And sea keepers was a band of, yacht and super yacht owners who said, you know, we have kind of a vested interest in the waterways. And, you know, if we happen to be going to, a particular place and there's a group of scientists that need to go to that particular place, wouldn't that benefit all of us if we just took them?
00;09;18;23 - 00;09;42;06
Speaker 3
And, since we were going to go anyhow and that that again, and I kind of distilled it down to a very basic, concept, but it, it was, it was that intriguing of an idea that, sparked my interest in sea keepers. My wife's of my, both, rallied around the idea and, and here we are 15 years later, still heavily involved with sea keepers.
00;09;43;14 - 00;09;49;27
Speaker 1
Yeah. So you've been involved with us for a long time, but it's been exciting to see it kind of change and evolve over the years.
00;09;50;20 - 00;09;51;22
Speaker 3
Oh, most definitely.
00;09;52;00 - 00;09;53;24
Speaker 1
And what about you, Doctor Lowe?
00;09;54;11 - 00;10;19;17
Speaker 2
Yeah. So as Tom points out, and he, he understands very well, you know, the challenges that we face in doing marine sciences studies. the costs are getting higher. you know, we have a fleet of small boats, and I can't tell you how much money I spend just maintaining those and training people to use those. But if you're going to do certain types of marine science, sometimes you just need a bigger boat, and we simply can't afford them.
00;10;19;19 - 00;10;39;25
Speaker 2
So, when I first started working on some white shark projects here, we had some overnight trips that we wanted to do and we just couldn't, you know, my students, I. I'm get too old to sleep in a 17ft whaler on the deck. That's just getting too hard. my students can do it because they're young. But for me, it's brutal.
00;10;39;27 - 00;11;07;16
Speaker 2
So we we do 24 hour tracks, we put transmitters on sharks, and we follow them all night long. So the best case scenario is if you have what we call a mother ship, and, mother ship is basically a base. It's a mobile base on the water that we can tag a shark, track it from a small boat, but we can exchange crews and they can come back to someplace relatively comfortable and get a hot meal and a shower and a warm bunk and and that's something that we typically don't get in my field.
00;11;07;18 - 00;11;19;06
Speaker 2
So when I first started doing these projects, I started asking around some of our local marinas, do you know anybody who'd be interested in doing this? And that's how I found out about Sea Keepers, and that's how I got hooked up with Tom.
00;11;19;16 - 00;11;22;18
Speaker 1
So, word of mouth a bit, it seems that's really exciting.
00;11;23;08 - 00;11;44;27
Speaker 2
So I understand sea keepers is much bigger on the East coast and and on the West coast. It's it's not it's reach isn't as great but it's need is greater. So I'd love to, you know, continue to market it with among my colleagues because, you know, there's lots of folks out here that need to go to the Channel Islands or offshore islands and the costs of getting out there, it's just prohibitive.
00;11;44;27 - 00;11;57;04
Speaker 2
And and having vessels that are equipped and, and let's just say comfortable to do that is is part of the challenge. So I think something like Sea Keepers will be very appealing to a lot of my colleagues.
00;11;57;04 - 00;12;05;02
Speaker 1
I hope someday we'll have a West Coast branch. But I think until then, we do a lot of global networking. So we'll we'll keep the West Coast in mind.
00;12;05;10 - 00;12;18;21
Speaker 1
All right. Let's chat a little bit about the expedition, that you all went on in September 2023. So you all boarded Discovery Yacht Valkyrie to study juvenile white sharks off the coast of California?
00;12;18;24 - 00;12;23;06
Speaker 1
doctor Lowe, what were the specific objectives of this expedition?
00;12;24;07 - 00;12;47;02
Speaker 1
Well, that's always tough because when you have a really nice boat that you can use as a as a mothership, we have a slew of things we always want to do. And that could range from just going out and catching and tagging sharks. and then at the same time, you know, taking advantage of this large floating platform, you know, we have all these other side things that we like to do simultaneously.
00;12;47;02 - 00;13;08;07
Speaker 1
And I have a large crew. I've got about 15 to 20 people who fight for the opportunity to go out and do this. And some of them sleep on the deck and they don't care. They love it. but, you know, sometimes we're out. We're setting breaths which are better remote underwater video cameras. And those run for about two hours, and then somebody's got to pick them up, and then we download them, replace the cameras, put them back out.
00;13;08;09 - 00;13;28;02
Speaker 1
we have underwater receivers all along this area where we're trying to track these sharks. So a team of divers has to go up in and dive down, pick up those receivers, download them or replace them sometimes for flying drone missions. So we can actually do it from the Valkyrie, which is great. and then other times we're going to go out and do some fishing and tagging of things that white church might eat.
00;13;28;05 - 00;13;48;16
Speaker 1
So for us, we have a litany of things we want to do. Tom is an amazing captain and better yet, cook. Which is the other reason why my students love going out in the boat, because they get fed better than they do at home. and then, of course, you know, we're constantly working, so sometimes we plan 24 hour tracks.
00;13;48;19 - 00;14;08;18
Speaker 1
unfortunate. Last two trips out, we haven't been able to to keep a shark on a track. You know, it's shed tags. a special tag package that we have on them called Smart tags. So think of it like a Fitbit for sharks with a video camera. So we can kind of see what the shark sees and measure every motion it makes to try to figure out what they're doing.
00;14;08;20 - 00;14;20;27
Speaker 1
So, you know, our goal is to do that again this summer. Hopefully, if Tom's willing and the sharks are around, our goal is to go out and and get a bunch of these tracks and try to peer into the daily lives of a white shark.
00;14;21;00 - 00;14;29;09
Speaker 1
It seems like the Valkyrie was a really fitting platform for this expedition, and hopefully you and Tom will be able to get out there again and learn some more about these juveniles.
00;14;29;12 - 00;14;34;25
Speaker 1
how did the expedition contribute to the general understanding of great white sharks?
00;14;34;25 - 00;14;55;02
Speaker 2
Well, I think the biggest thing is it gives us an opportunity to be out there much longer than we normally would. Our typical workday in this site, is about seven hours. and then, you know, our our boats are small. We don't really have the capacity to stay out 24 hours easily. you know, we'd have to line the deck with fuel cans and things like that.
00;14;55;02 - 00;15;15;29
Speaker 2
And that's just not conducive to this kind of work. So we've learned a lot, in terms of how much we can actually do on site and get things done. we've been able to use our, autonomous underwater vehicle. So you can imagine Tom's yacht with something that looks like a torpedo, strapped to the back. And we can launch that and run that through the area.
00;15;16;00 - 00;15;35;02
Speaker 2
And measure the environmental conditions in 3D. that's a very expensive device. And, of course, you know, having a base to run that from and recharge that from is great. So all those things are things that we've been able to do on expeditions with Tom that we haven't been able to do. We have to do it one day at a time.
00;15;35;05 - 00;15;56;28
Speaker 2
And now we could do them all together. So now that we're starting to put all those pieces together, we're getting a much better idea of how these young white sharks are using these nursery areas. And it turns out that a lot of those times during the day, they're just being lazy. They're just swimming around, probably saving energy. And then at certain times of day they turn on and that's when they're feeding.
00;15;57;00 - 00;16;03;06
Speaker 2
So it's kind of interesting to see that sort of thing at night when we're not out there at night.
00;16;03;22 - 00;16;09;22
Speaker 1
So, what made you interested in this opportunity? How did you hear about the expedition with Doctor Lowe?
00;16;10;17 - 00;16;23;13
Speaker 3
Yeah, my connection was with, Tony Gilbert, who, I guess was, the first, communications with, Doctor Lowe and, then he. Tony contacted me to see if that was something
00;16;23;13 - 00;16;28;27
Speaker 3
that I would be interested in and be if, you know, I had the right equipment for which,
00;16;28;27 - 00;16;31;14
Speaker 3
both, checked off just fine.
00;16;31;14 - 00;16;34;25
Speaker 3
So, that that was the connection there.
00;16;34;29 - 00;16;39;19
Speaker 1
It seems like a great match between this specific project and your vessel in particular.
00;16;39;19 - 00;16;55;00
Speaker 3
Yes, I think so. it, you know, the, the requirements that Doctor Lowe needed was, we needed, be able to accommodate people for sleeping while at anchor, off the, the beach there in, in Carpinteria.
00;16;55;00 - 00;17;13;18
Speaker 3
also, platform for, their to, Boston Whalers to tie up to at night. and then, you know, being able to feed people, we, we would change people, every other day or every day, by having them swim through the surf, they would come out and park and then swim out to the boat.
00;17;13;18 - 00;17;20;16
Speaker 3
So we didn't have to go pick them up, in the area. But it was, I think, all around. It worked out just fine.
00;17;20;19 - 00;17;36;11
Speaker 1
Yeah, that sounds really fun. while we're on the topic, can you tell us a little bit more about any specific features of Valkyrie? Maybe the length, your history with this vessel, and maybe anything that contributed particularly to the expedition.
00;17;36;11 - 00;17;39;16
Speaker 3
I'm not sure there's anything overly special, about it,
00;17;39;16 - 00;17;43;28
Speaker 3
pertaining to this particular, expedition, but,
00;17;43;28 - 00;17;54;05
Speaker 3
Valkyrie is 65ft long, so it's a sizable vessel, which I think was the requirement because we needed, to be able to accommodate a number of people and lots of equipment.
00;17;54;08 - 00;18;26;13
Speaker 3
It has, a big open bow area. So launching, drones is is a very easy thing because there's nothing overhead on them. and it's got the, platform, and the flybridge area that sits up nice and high so you can look down and see, a lot more in the water. not so critical with, this particular expedition, but it's been useful in other things we've done with, like, whales and dolphins, where we've had to be able to see, much further distance out there.
00;18;26;13 - 00;18;47;11
Speaker 3
I think just being able to, to sit for any an extended period of times and most of our, trips with Doctor Lowe have been, 2 or 3 for, well, we tried a five day, and I think we lost a generator. so it ended up being like a four day trip, but, but still multiple days.
00;18;47;14 - 00;18;51;14
Speaker 3
the this the is equipped to accommodate all that.
00;18;51;29 - 00;18;57;08
Speaker 1
So this is not the only expedition you two have been on together. Then how many others have there been?
00;18;57;13 - 00;19;17;03
Speaker 3
probably 8 to 12, different expeditions. we, we were, involved early on with dropping drifters for, NOAA, through sea keepers when Sea Keepers was sponsoring that, and in fact, I think that was our first thing we ever did with them.
00;19;17;06 - 00;19;34;12
Speaker 3
there was a gentleman working on a PhD program who, perfected the DNA, process, for underwater, DNA testing. And, he, they, did a number of things on board Valkyrie.
00;19;34;12 - 00;19;49;04
Speaker 3
and at the time, he was being, he had grants from National Geographic's. And so we were all sworn to secrecy because this was all brand new technology, and they didn't want anybody to talk about it, show it anything else until it got perfected.
00;19;49;04 - 00;20;09;28
Speaker 3
And ultimately it did. So that was kind of fun because, we were, I think, a good year or two before the, most of the world knew much about Edna and, and, and then we've been involved with, both, whales and dolphin projects as well. So a number of different things.
00;20;10;01 - 00;20;24;06
Speaker 1
Now. Edna is a really interesting emerging topic in marine studies by sampling ocean water. Scientists can collect the mucus, feces, or tissue particles shed by organisms in the water column and can identify which species might be present at that location.
00;20;24;11 - 00;20;33;22
Speaker 1
And what about the number of of trips or expeditions the two of you have gone on together? Do you do you happen to know either of you?
00;20;34;00 - 00;20;35;13
Speaker 2
we've done. Three, I believe.
00;20;35;13 - 00;20;50;21
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think that's right. we we had to cancel one. We had a one, plan that the Mother Nature, intervened on that weekend and, and, so we had to postpone that one. But, yes, I believe that's the right number.
00;20;50;24 - 00;20;54;13
Speaker 1
Hopefully this year we'll we'll be able to fit in some more expeditions.
00;20;54;28 - 00;21;10;01
Speaker 1
so I want to talk a little bit about any of the discoveries that were made on this expedition. I know this is a piece that's helping, you know, create the puzzle of juvenile white shark behavior and their lifestyles, their place in the ecosystem.
00;21;10;03 - 00;21;20;05
Speaker 1
but were there any kind of unexpected discoveries made during this expedition? Maybe this is a question for Doctor Lowe that you would be excited to share with us.
00;21;20;24 - 00;21;41;12
Speaker 2
Sure. So, on the first one that we went out with and Tony was there to help, which was great, we did catch a juvenile white shark, and we did manage to get our smart tag on that animal. but we had some technical challenges. And again, this technology is is kind of new, so everybody's tweaking it and trying to come up with better attachment methods.
00;21;41;12 - 00;21;56;02
Speaker 2
And we don't want that to influence the animal, but we want it to be able to record what we need. So, you know, we caught a shark right off the bat and we got the tag on the shark, and we let the shark go, and we tracked it for about six hours, and it somehow managed to rub it off.
00;21;56;05 - 00;22;15;26
Speaker 2
And then the tag was off, but we couldn't tell where it was. It's designed to float to the surface. but this is in the middle of the night. And my students woke me up and said, okay, it's your turn to track, but we can't. The shark doesn't seem to be moving. It doesn't make sense. So then we would go out and we would kind of try to hone down the position and look for it and look for it.
00;22;15;26 - 00;22;33;25
Speaker 2
We couldn't find it. the next morning, dawn came. We realized it had not moved, so therefore it could no longer be in the shark. And what had happened was the tag had got tangled in kelp, so the shark had moved through kelp. Something that they always say sharks. But tricks will never go through kelp. That is totally not true.
00;22;33;27 - 00;22;51;28
Speaker 2
we've demonstrated that in a couple different ways, but this is one really good one, and a team of divers had to go down to recover it. So. So that was a important learning lesson. And it taught us a lot about if we're going to keep these kinds of tags on sharks that do go through kelp, we have to make them less snag proof.
00;22;52;00 - 00;23;03;18
Speaker 2
So we're working on modified designs to, to make the tag, less likely to get snagged up in kelp. And hopefully the next time we go out this summer, we'll be able to get a couple of those traction.
00;23;03;18 - 00;23;20;25
Speaker 1
And that's a really interesting myth about white sharks that you were able to disprove from that. going off of that, what are some other myths about great white sharks or maybe juveniles, either one that you often feel you have to dispel for people.
00;23;21;00 - 00;23;45;15
Speaker 2
Well, I think this particular aggregation site, the most white sharks we've seen at this one site in a single day was 40 individuals, and they ranged anywhere from five feet long, which is about a baby up to about nine feet long, which is considered an old toddler. you know, a nine foot long white shark. They're hanging out doing the same thing they did when they were five feet long babies.
00;23;45;18 - 00;24;05;28
Speaker 2
So these areas are discrete. The sharks just kind of move back and forth, back and forth all day long. They have to be feeding there. So right now we're looking at what they're feeding on. So using brushes and keychains and DNA and all these different tools to try to figure out what they're eating. But probably the biggest discovery we found came from using drones.
00;24;06;04 - 00;24;26;06
Speaker 2
And I had a student that flew drone surveys at all these sites. And what he noticed was that these white sharks would swim right underneath people all the time. Surfers, swimmers didn't even know the sharks are there, but we could see them from the air. And what we're learning is that the sharks basically treat people like flotsam. They're these objects that float at the surface.
00;24;26;09 - 00;24;50;24
Speaker 2
They clearly aren't food because they're not bothering people and they basically ignore them. So I think that that was a big revelation and we were able to scientifically quantify that. So in other words, we were able to demonstrate for the first time how often great whites are right next to people and completely ignoring them. So I could say that I could I could publish something and I could show people all the data in the world.
00;24;50;26 - 00;25;06;17
Speaker 2
But you know, what convinces them the most is looking at that video. When they see that video and they see it over and over again, they go, that shark pretends like that person is not even there. And we go, yes, this is happening all the time. In California, white sharks are swimming by people who are in the water all the time.
00;25;06;17 - 00;25;26;16
Speaker 2
They don't even know the sharks are there and they're not bothering anybody. So what these studies are showing is that our our perception of white sharks has been greatly changed based on images from Jaws and Shark Week and things like that. And it's simply not true. So they're getting a different perspective of what the sharks are really
00;25;27;15 - 00;25;42;08
Speaker 1
I love that. I think that's so necessary. And the more you understand something, the less you kind of fear it as well. Tom did. You're opinions on great white sharks change at all before and after these expeditions with Doctor Lowe?
00;25;42;11 - 00;25;45;28
Speaker 3
Significantly changed for the better after
00;25;45;28 - 00;26;03;05
Speaker 3
involved with this program, before, I would always give sharks any sharks, really, for that matter. But great whites especially, you know, you give them a wide berth, you know, ones in the area, you get out of the water, you get feed out of the water, that's going to come up.
00;26;03;05 - 00;26;23;16
Speaker 3
And and that has that potential. And we used to say, sure. great whites are the kind of sharks that bite come and come back and get you again, you know, type of thing. I mean, that that's, doctor. That's right. I mean, this this started because of the movie jaws and, Yeah, it was, I my first time out there,
00;26;23;16 - 00;26;40;11
Speaker 3
you know, watching that, the video is, as, Doctor Lowe said was just, a total eye opener because they're in 10 or 15ft of water and you'll see the shark from the drone go right under them. And the the surfers have no idea that this thing just swam underneath them.
00;26;40;14 - 00;26;58;20
Speaker 3
And then the other thing that that surprised me with the great whites is that, if you're in the water, like on a surfboard and they're swimming and they may or may not see you, but if you turn quick, you scare them. Oh, now, who in the right mind has ever heard of a great white getting scared of somebody?
00;26;58;20 - 00;27;02;11
Speaker 3
But they do. They. They spook real, by that movement.
00;27;02;11 - 00;27;34;05
Speaker 3
now, from my understanding, also with the project being juveniles, this, you know, their primary food sources is below them. It's the skates and rays on the bottom. So they're not yet looking up for their food source, like seals and sea lions. so when that transition happens, I think you have to take them with a little bit, different, approach, but but no, I, I really changed my perspective on how, great whites, number one, how many and two,
00;27;34;05 - 00;27;36;10
Speaker 3
close around.
00;27;36;12 - 00;27;38;21
Speaker 3
they are on the beaches in California.
00;27;39;14 - 00;27;45;19
Speaker 3
I share one other quick little story. So they that that first weekend first time we were out
00;27;45;19 - 00;28;02;03
Speaker 3
you know I'm sitting there looking at that because the these research folks they also drop down in the water, to collect the data from the, recorders that are underwater. And yeah, I'm sitting there going with all these great whites, these guys are out there.
00;28;02;09 - 00;28;24;17
Speaker 3
Well, you know what? What every one of them with, these researchers did in the afternoon after the day was kind of done. they jump off the boat, go swimming. So it's like, are you kidding with all those great whites? because they're not they're not really, a threat, like, like we would think they would be.
00;28;24;20 - 00;28;29;10
Speaker 3
So. Yeah, very, very different experience, seeing it firsthand.
00;28;29;13 - 00;28;31;02
Speaker 1
Did you ever jump in?
00;28;31;03 - 00;28;53;05
Speaker 3
Oh, heck no. No, no, no. The answer is I don't have a problem jumping in, but, I you have to remember that my my duties was making sure everybody else was safe, in and around the the boat stuff. So, my, my time was not necessarily in the recreational mode. It was, more of, being, on duty.
00;28;53;14 - 00;29;07;14
Speaker 1
Can you describe a little bit what those duties were and how your presence on this? I mean, apart from hosting the expedition, which is a huge help. What else were you able to contribute to this expedition, Tom?
00;29;08;00 - 00;29;36;04
Speaker 3
hosting is is kind of a, hard term for me to to come by because to me, I'm just a small piece in this whole puzzle. the the project is, is really the, you know, the, the, the shark research is really the focus. That's that's the main program. And Doctor Lowe, you know, has to, make sure everybody's got something to do, make sure they're all, got the equipment.
00;29;36;04 - 00;30;02;03
Speaker 3
They need everything, you know? And so he's running the whole operations there. My job was purely, provide a platform to, make sure everybody, was safe and fed and that that's really it. So. So it's, from my perspective, it's just a small piece in the whole big puzzle that that took place that weekend or during those expeditions.
00;30;02;05 - 00;30;06;21
Speaker 3
but, but, that's purely as just, making sure everything is working.
00;30;06;25 - 00;30;07;19
Speaker 1
What personal
00;30;07;19 - 00;30;11;10
Speaker 1
gains did you get from being a part of this expedition?
00;30;11;10 - 00;30;18;14
Speaker 3
learning, meeting new people, enjoying the interactions with, a lot of very, very nice people.
00;30;18;14 - 00;30;25;26
Speaker 3
enjoy, just being out on the water. so, you know, it's definitely a win win for me.
00;30;26;02 - 00;30;28;13
Speaker 2
So I think Tom's underselling his role.
00;30;28;18 - 00;30;31;19
Speaker 1
Yeah, maybe you can you can advocate for him a little bit,
00;30;31;26 - 00;30;54;11
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Because, you know, my students, you know, they're good small boat operators. They're good divers. You know, they're used to working, you know, in close quarters and things like that and having specific tasks to do. And they and safety is baked in. We spend huge amounts of time focusing on safety and, and and even though we know there are sharks around, we're always cognizant.
00;30;54;11 - 00;31;14;14
Speaker 2
And everyone is trained in wilderness first aid. They all know what to do in case there's trauma. you know Tom's role as is captain of his own ship. And everybody's safety is really important. And the students haven't had a lot of ship time, so they've been out in lots of small boats, but they haven't spent time on ships.
00;31;14;16 - 00;31;40;09
Speaker 2
And I think Tom taught them a lot about seamanship, general seamanship, how to operate bigger vessels, how to be safe on bigger vessels, the kind of technology that is common now on bigger vessels, and how it's a game changer. So for many of them, as their careers progress, some of them may work on bigger ships. And the experience that they got from working with Tom was great, and it's very casual.
00;31;40;09 - 00;32;04;26
Speaker 2
And Tom, you may not be as aware of how influential you were in that. but I can tell you my students walked away being better sailors as a result of the experience of being on the boat with you. And it's just it oozed. So I think, you know, that's the best kind of learning experience. And again, you know, they're they're learning to you know, these are big operations.
00;32;04;26 - 00;32;21;09
Speaker 2
We have a lot of moving parts. And safety has to be a key. And Tom was important in making sure they understood that even while you're out doing the things that you know that you're doing, there are other layers for safety. So, for example, everybody had to do an anchor watch. Some of them didn't even know what anchor watch was.
00;32;21;12 - 00;32;33;04
Speaker 2
But but learning that, having that experience, knowing what to do in those conditions is something that never had to do before, because they go out in small boats. So I think there's it was a great learning experience for many of them.
00;32;33;08 - 00;32;40;24
Speaker 1
That's cool. It's so valuable for budding marine biologists. So, Tom, you need to toot your own horn a little bit more.
00;32;41;10 - 00;32;42;01
Speaker 1
now.
00;32;42;01 - 00;32;56;17
Speaker 3
I feel I'm just a small piece in the overall puzzle there, but, but, ducklo. Thank you very much. I appreciate the kind words. I'm just doing what I enjoy, and and, glad to be part of the project.
00;32;56;26 - 00;33;17;26
Speaker 1
And that's quite a bonus as well, to get to do something where you're educating younger students and then also getting to experience something you might not have otherwise, getting to be part of a scientific expedition. And, the scientists and getting to go on a private yacht. I think those are both really cool experiences that the two worlds don't often get.
00;33;17;26 - 00;33;22;14
Speaker 1
So it's a really cool mismatch of of worlds.
00;33;22;27 - 00;33;41;19
Speaker 2
think we, we shocked Tom the first time when we showed up with all our gear. We had so much gear and electronics. His poor generator was like, oh my God, I have to charge all these things. So, you know, it's it's always a shocker when we show up because we've got, like, a truck full of gear.
00;33;41;19 - 00;34;07;06
Speaker 2
We had fishing nets and robots and drones and all this electronics. So, you know, we really appreciate him accommodating us with all that stuff. And we learned that to be more successful, we had to scale back our expectations in terms of what we could accomplish. But but nonetheless, you know, every time we go out, there's a there's a lot of equipment that has to be maintained and charged.
00;34;07;06 - 00;34;11;13
Speaker 2
And Tom had a great platform for supporting that.
00;34;11;16 - 00;34;20;10
Speaker 3
yeah. And and it's something I, I learned with doing some of these, expeditions is I'm going to need a bigger boat.
00;34;22;17 - 00;34;32;21
Speaker 1
while we're on the topic of collaborations, were there any aspects of the expedition where it was valuable to have sea keepers involved and present on board?
00;34;33;03 - 00;34;58;29
Speaker 2
Sure. I would say it was great having Tony out to see, you know, kind of how we operate. And I know that most of the work that Sea Keepers does is on the East coast. The West Coast has its own, differences and charms and things like that. But, I think having him out there was really good for him to see how well we work together, first of all, and then to be part of it, I think he got, you know, have some fun and get out there.
00;34;58;29 - 00;35;12;04
Speaker 2
And, we even got him in the water a couple times. He was a little apprehensive about that. But I eventually get the water. I think he lost some fins or something. Oh, no. yeah. But, Matt, it was so good. He came up twice.
00;35;12;12 - 00;35;20;21
Speaker 1
It's a great learning opportunity to to have a sea keeper present on board. And we can learn more about how to communicate the science that we're learning about as well.
00;35;20;21 - 00;35;36;28
Speaker 1
which is also a goal of this podcast. You know, we want to be able to share with people, not just results from that experience, but what actually happened and what it's like to be a marine biologist and to get to be in the private sector, helping out that that particular field.
00;35;36;28 - 00;35;42;08
Speaker 1
So, so yeah, it's it's really cool to get to be involved in those expeditions.
00;35;42;12 - 00;36;00;09
Speaker 1
I'd like to talk about some of your most memorable moments from this expedition. So, Tom, is there anything, that sticks out to you in particular? Any kind of surprising? I mean, apart from everybody just jumping in with the sharks. What did you take away from this experience?
00;36;00;18 - 00;36;16;06
Speaker 3
Well, I, I think I said a lot of it earlier, and that's just, the taking. What perception is the norm out there and turning that upside down and realizing that that's not the way it really is.
00;36;16;06 - 00;36;24;09
Speaker 3
the other thing is to, I guess, this, you know, some of these juveniles are, as Doctor Lowe said, nine, ten feet long.
00;36;24;14 - 00;36;51;06
Speaker 3
I think that that is a big shark. When it comes swimming by and it's a baby, and you know that. That's quite frightening. I, I think one surprise that I think surprised everybody was the last day of the last one. there had been rumors of a like, 13, 14ft shark swimming around and, and for, I guess for quite some time, they had been hearing those rumors like that, and, the last day.
00;36;51;06 - 00;37;07;16
Speaker 3
And in fact, I think it's almost like the last hour we were on the water. yeah. like a 14 footer came swimming by and it was right up against their, the Boston Whaler. And there's a great picture of it where it's almost as big as the whaler. And, you know, I just kind of like.
00;37;07;18 - 00;37;15;26
Speaker 3
Oh, there a big one out here. So that may be a new research project.
00;37;16;13 - 00;37;19;22
Speaker 1
That is really cool. You get to be up close and personal.
00;37;19;22 - 00;37;21;03
Speaker 3
to see. Yeah.
00;37;21;10 - 00;37;29;00
Speaker 1
Hey. Cool. And what about for you, Doctor Lowe? What would you say was your most memorable experience coming away from this?
00;37;29;02 - 00;37;49;07
Speaker 2
Well, for me, it's, it's having the opportunity to have all my staff or most of my staff, not all of them, out on the water at one time. And we can talk about things that, you know, you know, we may not be able to talk about the same way in the lab just because everybody's busy doing everything and getting the whole group together stuff.
00;37;49;09 - 00;38;11;25
Speaker 2
and they love to do this. So for me, it's the opportunity to get my get to know my students better because you're living with them for four days in close quarters. Right. and then, as Tom points out, it was the last trip, the last day, the last hour, you know, we had a shark. You know, we we anchor the Valkyrie a little bit further off shore to kind of stay out of the fray.
00;38;11;27 - 00;38;30;06
Speaker 2
and literally a shark swam right up to the boat while we're eating lunch, ran up to the boat, and then my students threw the drone up in the air and we're tracking it. And then another team went out, jumped in the whaler with with tagging equipment, and went over and tagged that shark. So, you know, I was thinking, okay, normally we have to go searching for him.
00;38;30;06 - 00;38;37;05
Speaker 2
We might have to get a kilometer or two away from the boat. Now they're coming right to the boat. I was thinking, that makes this job really easy.
00;38;37;12 - 00;38;46;22
Speaker 1
I mean, one thing to know about science is that it's not predictable. You just need to be there to capture the opportunity. And it's great to see that Tom and the Valkyrie were able to do that for you all.
00;38;47;01 - 00;39;00;27
Speaker 1
How has the partnership with Sea Keepers impacted your perspective on supporting scientific research on your vessel? I know you mentioned you. You really enjoyed it, and you would like to do it again. But if you could elaborate on that a little bit, that would be great.
00;39;01;23 - 00;39;09;15
Speaker 3
again, I would go back to the the mission of Sea Keepers and that's trying to put larger vessels, yachts and,
00;39;09;15 - 00;39;42;29
Speaker 3
super yachts together with the scientific community. it ends up being a win win situation. it, I mean, from my perspective, it it's really neat to be able to provide, you know, even a little bit of assistance to these types of projects, and make me personally feel good, but it also, I think it, makes me intellectually feel better, because I'm learning as I go along.
00;39;42;29 - 00;39;52;10
Speaker 3
is an enjoyable aspect of the scientific world, you know, where, where we're, involved in, as a sea keeper.
00;39;52;29 - 00;39;58;17
Speaker 1
So would you encourage other private yacht owners to participate in an expedition like this?
00;39;58;20 - 00;40;22;13
Speaker 3
100%? it's it's, again, just from their personal perspective, it's very, fulfilling and satisfying to know that you've been involved in, in a particular project, from a global perspective on the scientific world, it's invaluable to be able to offer that assistance. so again, it turns into a win win situation.
00;40;22;13 - 00;40;30;01
Speaker 3
people who want to happy to be involved that have maybe two smaller boats that maybe they can be involved in other ways.
00;40;30;04 - 00;40;45;02
Speaker 3
you know, whether it's, helping out on the bigger yachts or, providing, voluntary assistance in other projects that are going on. so it doesn't necessarily matter how big your boat is, it matters of just being involved.
00;40;45;25 - 00;41;08;23
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. We we have a lot of different programs that boats of any size can get involved with. We do get a lot, a lot of questions about if someone's boat will be suitable for an expedition because they might be smaller, but we have a lot of smaller boats that go out and do day trips. We've been learning a lot about our our local environment of Biscayne Bay here in Miami, so really anybody can be involved.
00;41;08;23 - 00;41;23;12
Speaker 1
It does take a unique vessel like yours to do something like, you know, a three, 4 or 5 day expedition, but it is really cool. Hopefully we're expanding those opportunities so any vessel can be involved in some sort of scientific project, no matter the size.
00;41;24;14 - 00;41;35;26
Speaker 1
doctor Lowe, can you tell us a little bit about how the general public can engage with any of the findings from this particular research expedition, or from any of the scientific research that you do?
00;41;36;12 - 00;42;03;26
Speaker 2
Yeah. So our our project is funded by the state of California. And, and it was founded because of the increase in white shark population, concern for public safety. So, for us, it's absolutely essential that the science that we learn gets out to the public as soon as possible. And, and there are opportunities for the, you know, the local community to participate, whether it's doing like what Tom's doing and helping us, taking us out in his boat.
00;42;03;29 - 00;42;27;17
Speaker 2
we have other partners who have smaller boats that take us out diving to local sites regularly, that save us from dragging our own 17ft whaler along a hundred miles of Le freeway. Right. So so those are those are all huge contributions. They're really important. And they do it voluntarily. So their interest is there. And we're always looking for new people to partner with us.
00;42;27;17 - 00;42;47;11
Speaker 2
In that sense. And it basically helps the entire community because it's funded by taxpayers, the state of California. The other thing is, you know, you don't even have to have a boat to participate. A lot of times we have other community members that just want to be part of what we do, and they they volunteer and they come in and help clean gear in the lab.
00;42;47;18 - 00;43;01;07
Speaker 2
They help paint buoys that we need to put out that are listening for tag sharks, little things like that. But they matter. They really matter. And they learn. They learn. They like being around the students. The students are great bunch. They're very hardworking.
00;43;01;07 - 00;43;03;20
Speaker 2
they're very motivated and they want to learn from other people.
00;43;03;20 - 00;43;09;02
Speaker 2
So I think there's lots of opportunities there in the scientific community that are largely untapped.
00;43;09;02 - 00;43;28;26
Speaker 2
Citizen science is growing, so there are always new ways that people can contribute. Where we have a cadre of people that fly drones who share video data with us, and we have the capacity to process that, and they're very interested in participating. So it all depends on where their interests lie and what they like to do and, and the time they have available.
00;43;28;26 - 00;43;57;26
Speaker 3
There's one other area that, Doctor Lowe the Shark Lab, routinely does public, forums. They'll set up a booth or display out on the beach or somewhere in the area. And that takes people and that takes people to talk to people. So, again, it could be someone who's not necessarily even, water related, but, public relations oriented or at least likes, likes working with the public.
00;43;58;05 - 00;44;16;16
Speaker 1
So you all are getting out into the community sharing this this research. But you're also bringing people in and letting people be involved in even a small aspect of the research. So that's really great community involvement. And hopefully we can dispel some of the rumors around sharks in general with with more of that.
00;44;16;18 - 00;44;36;18
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And that and that's a big part of our program. So our public outreach and our K through 12 programs, are really key. So, you know, our goal is to get the science that we're learning as soon as possible out to the public, because if not, why are we doing it? So we work very closely with all the ocean lifeguards in California.
00;44;36;18 - 00;44;53;02
Speaker 2
They're one of our primary clients because they're the ones that deal with this on a day to day basis. So they're important research partners with us as well. And then, of course, you know, as Tom was pointing out, we have our outreach program where we go out, we have what are called shark shacks that pop up along the beaches.
00;44;53;04 - 00;45;00;21
Speaker 2
And we have a bunch of people, students, volunteers that are trained to, you know, inform the public about what we know about sharks and beach safety.
00;45;00;21 - 00;45;08;15
Speaker 2
our K through 12 program, we call, sharks and robots. And we figure if we can't get kids interested in science, technology, engineering and math
00;45;08;16 - 00;45;09;27
Speaker 2
using sharks and robots,
00;45;09;27 - 00;45;10;24
Speaker 2
we're not doing our job.
00;45;10;26 - 00;45;16;01
Speaker 2
So, we have a group that goes out to schools and delivers a curriculum that we've developed.
00;45;16;08 - 00;45;24;10
Speaker 2
And then, of course, we have our own comic book series. So we have comic books on beach safety and marine pollution and how to be a shark scientist.
00;45;24;10 - 00;45;31;15
Speaker 1
do you have? Something that's aimed at different aspects of shark biology. Shark conservation? In these comic books.
00;45;31;21 - 00;45;49;02
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And and remember, kids can smell education a mile away. So it has to be fun. It has to be engaging. It has to have teenage drama, all those great things. Right. But but it's actually a very effective tool. We found that kids are learning a lot from reading these comic books because they're engaging.
00;45;49;14 - 00;45;56;01
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's a very important aspect of science communication, and it's really cool that you're able to share this information with young audiences.
00;45;56;07 - 00;46;03;12
Speaker 1
Has this experience impacted your perspective on the importance of the private sector being involved in marine research?
00;46;03;12 - 00;46;31;23
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. Because as Tom pointed out at the beginning, it's hard in science to find money to do the work that we need to do. And quite often, depending on how relatable that science is to the general public, that's even a bigger challenge. But if we do have things relatable and sharks are pretty relatable to the general public, our challenge is how to get funding to keep the research going, but make sure that people see the benefit of that.
00;46;31;26 - 00;46;52;03
Speaker 2
So I think that's where the private sector helps. Like right now our our state funding is not looking very promising because the state budget is not good this year and we have to keep our program running. So we're very dependent on private and foundation support. And because of the technology we use, we cover the entire coast of California.
00;46;52;05 - 00;47;08;09
Speaker 2
it's an expensive program to maintain. So we need $7 billion to keep us operating for the next five years, or else we're going to have to roll up the carpet and, you know, start phasing things out. And I hate to see that happen because we've made great progress.
00;47;08;14 - 00;47;33;28
Speaker 1
Well, we'll work on expanding our community on the West Coast. I know it's big shoes for Tom to fill, to do every single expedition with you all. So maybe we could have a fleet out there doing this type of work. And, everything you all have done has been so influential and so educational. So it's been really great to see this collaboration come to fruition and to see the the partnership that you've had, the two of you throughout this.
00;47;34;03 - 00;47;39;14
Speaker 1
are there any other acknowledgments or final thoughts that you all would like to share? Before we wrap up?
00;47;39;14 - 00;48;07;25
Speaker 2
Well, I would like to thank Sea Keepers. I'm so thankful that I stumbled across them and and I can't tell you how great has been to work with Tom. So for me, that has been the pleasure. I hope we can keep going out. I hope you grow on the West Coast because I have a lot of colleagues that do really cool marine things that could always benefit from from having a good, safe, you know, adequate boat for what they need to do.
00;48;07;25 - 00;48;13;24
Speaker 2
And I think there's plenty of those around. We just need to get some of those boaters involved in sea keepers.
00;48;13;28 - 00;48;37;02
Speaker 3
Yeah. And and I have to figure out a way I can retire. So I can do this more often because, I do thoroughly enjoy it. but, yeah, working with the Shark lab has been a great, great pleasure on my end. Doctor Lowe is fantastic. All of his students, and and, lab assistants are just, very, very nice people.
00;48;37;02 - 00;48;47;22
Speaker 3
And, I really enjoy just being around them, so I feel privileged, to be a, again, a small part of the overall picture, but, it's been terrific.
00;48;47;22 - 00;49;07;18
Speaker 1
And I feel very privileged just to hear you all talk about your experience. So this has been an amazing conversation. I've learned so much both about white sharks and the value of privately owned vessels in marine research. So thank you both so much for joining for this discussion, and I really look forward to working with you both again soon.
00;49;07;28 - 00;49;09;08
Speaker 3
As thanks, Katie.
00;49;09;10 - 00;49;11;22
Speaker 2
Yeah thank you Katie. Really appreciate it.
00;49;13;16 - 00;49;33;20
Speaker 1
A huge thanks to Doctor Chris Lowe and Captain Tom Petersen for sharing their experience with us today, and we can't wait to see what unfolds on their next expedition. I hope after today's episode, you're a little less fearful and a little more fascinated by these ancient and intelligent creatures that have been vital to our ocean ecosystems for millions of years.
00;49;33;23 - 00;50;02;05
Speaker 1
In our next episode, we're taking a trip to the Bahamas to study one of the most important and threatened animals in our oceans. We'll chat with an amazing team of scientists at the frontline of coral restoration research, diving deep into their efforts to save these precious ecosystems. For more information about our expeditions, including papers published from the data collected, head to the scientists led expeditions page on Sea keepers.org.
00;50;02;08 - 00;50;15;15
Speaker 1
Stay tuned for another captivating episode of Sea Keeper's Voyages of Discovery, where we'll continue our journey to research, educate, protect and restore. Until next time. Fair winds and following seas.
