[0:01] Welcome to probate problems and practical solutions.
[0:07] Hello everyone and welcome back to probate problems and practical solutions
[0:12] with Carly Whiteside, owner of Copper Red Law in Mesa, Arizona.
[0:17] Copper Red Law focuses on probate, probate litigation,
[0:21] guardianship, conservatorship and trust administration across the state.
[0:26] My name's Sean O'Connor and today Carly and I are talking about
[0:30] emotional dynamics that can complicate probate cases.
[0:34] We're going to talk about how family relationships, expectations
[0:38] and communication issues can influence the probate process and what family
[0:42] should be aware of as they move forward.
[0:45] Hello Carly, how are you?
[0:47] Good, how are you?
[0:48] I'm doing all right.
[0:50] I love these conversations, you know, the laws, the law, but then
[0:54] oh yeah, there's people involved.
[0:56] I forgot about that.
[0:58] Yeah, especially for us, especially for them.
[1:01] And families and then, you know, there's a death and it's a lot.
[1:06] I get it.
[1:07] What are you seeing in terms of family dynamics?
[1:10] You know, what tends to surface once a probate case begins?
[1:14] There's typically two roads that I will see.
[1:17] And that's everybody's fine, everybody's getting along
[1:21] and everybody's kind of working towards the same goal.
[1:24] They're fine with one person doing everything.
[1:27] No problem, right?
[1:28] We're just kind of marching with the steps.
[1:31] The other dynamic I see way, way, way more often is everybody's now
[1:37] going to use this as an opportunity to air all their grievances they've
[1:41] ever had.
[1:42] And it gets, it gets pretty nasty.
[1:47] Stuff will come up from 50 and 60 years ago.
[1:51] I'm not joking.
[1:52] Yeah.
[1:53] And you're like, you know, you have to listen and say,
[1:56] OK, I, I understand and that's not right.
[1:59] However, it's 40 years later.
[2:04] And that really doesn't have anything to do with what's happening.
[2:10] And so I've mentioned this in other episodes when it's kind of come up.
[2:13] But a lot of my job truly is listening and counseling.
[2:17] And just in your ear and saying like, look, I, I hear you.
[2:21] I agree with you actually morally.
[2:24] I'm on your side legally that has nothing to do with anything.
[2:28] And that is a very hard concept for a lot of people to understand.
[2:33] The emotions get very, very high when we're talking about personal property.
[2:38] So it's typically not money.
[2:40] People will have their things about the money.
[2:42] But it's mom promised me her China set that was in her cabinet forever.
[2:47] And now we've got two siblings saying mom is going to give it to me.
[2:50] And so now we've got to play the game of how do we break the tie?
[2:54] And so that's where I see the clause really come out.
[3:00] Yeah, always over the China.
[3:04] Yeah.
[3:05] Look, you take service for four.
[3:07] I'll take service for four and and we'll call it even.
[3:12] No, I saw that in my own family with my among my siblings and I were like,
[3:17] I don't believe any so and so is still going on and on about something that happened.
[3:23] They're like, you know, yeah, it happens.
[3:26] Right?
[3:27] The unresolved conflicts surface.
[3:31] It's interesting.
[3:32] What do, you know, how do differences in expectations among the,
[3:38] among the beneficiaries influence the process early?
[3:42] Kind of going back into the previous episode that we did about myths and misconceptions.
[3:49] A lot of people will do their own research and utilize AI platforms.
[3:54] And then it's not correct.
[3:57] And so they've come into this process with an idea or a thought of it's supposed to go this way,
[4:02] it's supposed to be this way.
[4:04] And then either me is the legal team or a client has to say,
[4:08] my client has to communicate and say, no, actually, according to Arizona,
[4:11] lots this.
[4:12] And so that can cause a lot of upheaval.
[4:15] Because I think, unfortunately, when this becomes very adversarial.
[4:20] People think because I am representing, let's say the personal representative.
[4:25] And I say, hey, actually, this is the process, right?
[4:27] I'm just giving you information.
[4:28] This is the process we're going to follow.
[4:31] They feel like because I'm representing the personal representative.
[4:34] I'm in with them.
[4:36] I'm on their side.
[4:39] It's like, actually not.
[4:41] Yes, they are my client.
[4:42] I have a duty of confidentiality and all the wonderful things.
[4:45] But in Arizona, probate law firms have a fiduciary responsibility to the beneficiaries of the estate.
[4:51] And what that means is I have to make sure that we're following the law.
[4:55] We're following the rules, whether it be in testate laws or the will, trust.
[4:59] And that my client is not committing any crimes.
[5:02] I'm not allowed to help them commit crimes.
[5:05] So I'm not helping them steal.
[5:08] I'm not, you know, in on it.
[5:10] That's the call I get the most from beneficiaries.
[5:13] I think the attorneys in on it with them.
[5:15] And I'm like, there's not enough money in that estate.
[5:18] I don't want.
[5:19] I don't want your mother's China.
[5:21] The firm.
[5:22] They're law license.
[5:23] Like, and I'm not saying it doesn't happen.
[5:26] There's bad people in any industry.
[5:28] So I'm not saying it's never happened.
[5:30] It's never going to happen.
[5:31] I'm saying most of the time that's not the case.
[5:33] So that's something where I see that there's an issue.
[5:36] Because maybe I'm trying to educate a beneficiary and say, hey, you're entitled to this.
[5:40] This is when this is going to happen.
[5:42] But they're hearing it through a filter of, well, you're my brother's counsel.
[5:45] So you're going to say whatever he's telling you to say.
[5:48] Right.
[5:49] No.
[5:50] Well,
[5:51] I think too.
[5:53] And it's not necessarily dysfunction.
[5:55] But there's oftentimes when, you know, siblings or family members.
[5:59] I just haven't been in touch or very close over the years.
[6:04] Communication's been limited.
[6:06] There may be some bad blood.
[6:07] But also it may just be a matter of, you know, we're just living separate lives, so to speak.
[6:12] How does that affect decision making during the case?
[6:15] What have you seen?
[6:16] So when I see a family that's maybe not contentious, but just estranged.
[6:22] Typically in the beginning, there's a lot of upheaval.
[6:26] There's a lot of questions, a lot of concerns.
[6:29] But they are more open to when I tell them things.
[6:34] So when I give them information, say you can double check me, you can go over here.
[6:38] It calms everything down.
[6:39] So really on those, I'll see a little bit of more groundwork up front.
[6:43] I tell my client, like, look, I know it's a little more expensive for me to have a conversation with each of your siblings.
[6:49] But I promise you it's going to help this go smooth for the rest of this because otherwise we're going to be doing this the whole time.
[6:55] And so we kind of have to make those decisions to say, hey, let's have the conversation, whether it's with me, maybe it doesn't need to get bumped up to the attorney.
[7:04] You know, just kind of depending on where they're at, but estranged families.
[7:09] Again, they kind of start off a little bit out of out of the depth, but then they all seem to kind of come back to earth fairly quickly because there isn't any animosity there.
[7:19] There's confusion, there's grieving, there's, you know, information.
[7:27] When did mom do that?
[7:29] Well, you know, 10 years ago, while you were living in Alaska, like, oh, okay.
[7:34] Yeah.
[7:36] Yeah.
[7:37] Let's talk about the personal representative and the role they play.
[7:41] When tensions arise, that you were kind of alluding to between beneficiaries.
[7:46] What's the personal representatives role there?
[7:49] They are the tiebreaker.
[7:51] Oh, somebody has to have the authority to make the decision at some point.
[7:56] So they are the ones that are the tiebreaker.
[7:59] You know, obviously they'll talk to me and be like, hey, you don't know my family.
[8:03] What would you do?
[8:04] You're a neutral person.
[8:06] Like, you don't have any, you know, you know, the dog in this fight.
[8:10] Um, so, but they, but that's why we have them as so we don't have a stalemate.
[8:15] Um, in the estate, and so the estate administration can continue to move forward.
[8:20] Um, a lot of the times what we'll do, I will tell my personal representative clients that there's a big dispute over a lot of personal property.
[8:28] We will basically have like an auction one day.
[8:32] And everybody can do their silent bids and whoever bids the most wins it.
[8:38] And then that way everybody's allowed an opportunity.
[8:41] And it's like, it's the fairest way to do it.
[8:43] It sucks.
[8:44] But if you can't, if you guys can't give and take and I've seen people dig their heels in.
[8:49] And it's a $20 item, but it doesn't matter.
[8:52] That's not what it's about.
[8:53] So.
[8:54] Not about the money.
[8:56] It's not.
[8:57] I have heard it's not the money.
[8:59] It's the principle probably more times than I care to.
[9:03] Which again, that's fine.
[9:04] I'm not arguing with you.
[9:05] I understand that.
[9:07] Yeah.
[9:08] But somebody has to be in charge to keep it moving.
[9:11] Otherwise, all of pretty much every probate would probably stall out at some point.
[9:15] Yeah.
[9:16] Yeah, they never get never get finished.
[9:17] Yeah, it would just get stuck.
[9:18] Are there, are there.
[9:19] Stam in the whole process can be emotional.
[9:21] I'm wondering if there are, you know, particular stages of probate where emotional conflict is highest.
[9:29] Is it the beginning, middle or their particular.
[9:32] When you're executing certain aspects of probate that people get triggered.
[9:36] What's.
[9:37] What about that?
[9:38] I would say the beginning.
[9:41] Figuring out who's going to be the personal representative if there's no will.
[9:46] Or even if there is a will, why did mom or dad pick you?
[9:50] I was the oldest.
[9:51] Yeah, but I was here.
[9:53] So now we're, we're kind of dealing with that.
[9:55] And again, that misconception that I've spoke about where they think because they're the personal representative, they can do whatever they want.
[10:01] Right.
[10:02] Yeah.
[10:03] I said that it's like an inside track or something, but it's not somehow.
[10:06] Someone's got to, someone's got to put the letter in the mail.
[10:09] Right.
[10:10] So I would say in the beginning is typically where I see kind of the most.
[10:15] A people.
[10:16] And then when we get to the distribution part.
[10:19] Is where I see.
[10:21] A people.
[10:22] Because now we outlined, you know, maybe the creditor claims we've outlined my fees we've outlined the CPA fees.
[10:28] And so those all come off the top.
[10:30] And then we're left with a percentage in Arizona personal representatives and trustees can track their time and get paid to do the job.
[10:38] It's $30 an hour is what's acceptable in Arizona that I've seen.
[10:44] I've seen some people charge a little more, but they were like a CPA or they were an attorney that was doing it for a family member.
[10:51] So it was maybe 40 or 50.
[10:53] You don't have to claim your time.
[10:55] It's just if you want to.
[10:57] So a lot of the times beneficiaries aren't expecting that.
[11:00] And so then we put a time sheet in there for them.
[11:02] And they're.
[11:03] They feel like they're stealing money.
[11:06] When I'm like, no, this is really a crappy job.
[11:10] Like being the person representative of trustee is a terrible job to be honest.
[11:14] It's it's not fun.
[11:16] And my firm will go through their time sheets before they go out.
[11:20] If there's anything in there that needs to be tweaked clarified, or it's just like you cannot charge for that.
[11:26] Yeah.
[11:27] We have conversations before it goes out.
[11:29] That's not necessarily true for.
[11:31] You know, other places I can only talk about what we do here.
[11:36] You know, when you're padding, padding the benefits here.
[11:38] It's a padding.
[11:40] I've seen it.
[11:40] I'm like nice try.
[11:42] Yeah.
[11:42] We're not buying you dinner.
[11:44] What about, you know, misunderstandings about the probate process itself.
[11:50] How does that contribute to disagreements?
[11:53] There typically always seems to be one beneficiary that is not the PR personal representative.
[11:58] That really feels like they know better.
[12:01] And they have, you know, they've researched.
[12:03] I've had many of them tell me I look this up.
[12:06] You're wrong.
[12:07] Yeah.
[12:08] Okay.
[12:09] So that's where I see that kind of come into play as if they're just kind of being stubborn.
[12:13] And then I'm like, hey, you know, you can consult your own attorney.
[12:17] I'm like, hey, you know, you can consult your own attorney.
[12:20] And they will talk to you about your rights.
[12:22] Like you don't have to take it from me.
[12:24] Right.
[12:25] Yeah.
[12:26] Well, you know, there's a lot of probate firms here that will do free consults.
[12:28] So you get 30 minutes where you get your questions answered.
[12:31] And they just refuse.
[12:33] So it's the ones that just are being told that's not correct.
[12:37] But they won't take any steps to verify that it's incorrect.
[12:41] Like they're just going to believe they're going to believe.
[12:43] And nothing can convince them.
[12:46] I've even had those kinds of people file things with the court.
[12:49] And the court's like, this is not a thing.
[12:51] Please do not come back.
[12:52] I will be upset.
[12:53] And they won't.
[12:55] They still are like, oh, no, I'm right.
[12:58] It's.
[12:59] Yeah.
[13:00] There's those ones.
[13:01] It's more about management and just getting through it than trying to control them.
[13:05] Yeah, you're not going to, you're not going to change who they are.
[13:08] No.
[13:09] You know, when, when communication begins to break down,
[13:14] that assumes that that is happening, you know, how does that impact,
[13:19] you know, say timelines or administration of the estate itself?
[13:25] So probate, the probate process in Arizona relies on participation
[13:30] from the personal representative, first and foremost, but also beneficiaries.
[13:34] There are checkpoints where we need them to review things, sign releases,
[13:38] and get them sent back to us.
[13:41] The beneficiaries.
[13:42] Yes.
[13:43] Yes.
[13:44] So like the admin, if I were, if I were an admin, and I have to go to my sisters
[13:49] and say, hey, we got to, you guys need to put your eyes on this and sign off.
[13:54] And, and they all live in different places and I need to kind of bird dog that.
[13:59] We, well, we send it out via certified mail, depending on what it is.
[14:03] And there's a form in there.
[14:04] We have a, you know, my firm creates a letter that explains what's going on.
[14:07] Hey, I need you to sign and send this back.
[14:09] If you have questions, call us, call the PR, depending on what's going on.
[14:14] Maybe we can clarify something, explain something.
[14:17] Sure.
[14:18] When people don't participate, they, maybe they're not being malicious.
[14:22] They're just doing nothing.
[14:24] Yeah.
[14:25] Sometimes then we have to get the court to approve things.
[14:28] Because we can't get them to say it looks good.
[14:31] So now to protect the personal representative in their capacity.
[14:36] Somebody's got to approve it.
[14:38] So if the pennies can't get on board to do it, then we have to spend more money.
[14:42] And file a petition with the court.
[14:44] Give everybody notice.
[14:46] And go through that route.
[14:48] So that will make things take longer.
[14:50] Because drafting a petition, getting my client to approve and sign it, filing it,
[14:56] getting a hearing date, you just added three to four months.
[14:59] Oh, wow.
[15:00] Right there.
[15:01] Yeah.
[15:03] And that's fast because we're at the mercy of the court.
[15:06] And when they can get a sentence.
[15:08] So sometimes I've gotten in and eight weeks.
[15:10] Sometimes I've set hearings 18, 19, 20 weeks out.
[15:14] Oh, wow.
[15:15] It's really just.
[15:16] And it's.
[15:17] And people will think it's an emergency.
[15:20] No.
[15:21] You getting money is not an emergency to the court.
[15:24] Yeah.
[15:25] Court thing.
[15:26] Somebody being hurt.
[15:27] Somebody in imminent danger.
[15:28] Somebody's actively stealing.
[15:31] That's.
[15:32] Yeah.
[15:33] Yeah.
[15:34] But getting this approved or getting something figured out the court's like it's just stuff.
[15:39] Yeah.
[15:40] Small potatoes.
[15:41] Yeah.
[15:42] Yeah.
[15:44] Well, yeah, that's interesting.
[15:46] Of course, it's all about whoever, when it's happening, you know, me, me, me.
[15:51] You know, with the, with a couple minutes, we have left Carly for, you know,
[15:55] for people out there families right now.
[15:57] Maybe they're like, okay, they're entering probate.
[16:01] They know they've got a complicated, familiar relationships.
[16:05] Maybe what would you say to help keep the focus on resolving the estate efficiently?
[16:12] Right?
[16:13] You've had these people walk in your office.
[16:15] I'm sure.
[16:16] So like, what do you wish people would or what would you recommend people do to navigate this when things get complicated?
[16:22] Or they know it's going to get complicated.
[16:24] If you know it's going to be a problem, you're like, I got one sibling.
[16:28] They're a problem.
[16:29] They've got to be a problem.
[16:30] They've been a problem their whole life.
[16:32] Higher in attorney.
[16:34] Okay.
[16:35] Because if you guys start going back and forth with your unrepresented motions and responses,
[16:41] one, they're not correct.
[16:45] Two, you're jamming up the court and you're not getting any resolution.
[16:51] If you have an attorney, they can cut people off.
[16:53] If we have people that are filing stuff over and over and over and it's harassment,
[16:58] it's going to hurt to basically bar them from being able to file.
[17:02] That's not something you can really do on your own.
[17:04] You can, but it's a lot harder and you've wasted time.
[17:08] Yeah.
[17:09] Because this process is now being dragged out to deal with this.
[17:13] I would also say that I've spoken on this before.
[17:17] Communication is the thing that I see the most that causes issues.
[17:21] Because when you give people no information, now you are allowing them and their imagination to just.
[17:27] You'll run wild and get in Chad's GPT and get on Google and all these other things.
[17:33] So if, if you feel like everybody's kind of okay, just keep people updated.
[17:38] Whether that's a family email once a month saying here's what I've done.
[17:42] If you're not going to have an attorney or a group chat.
[17:46] Something just to tell people because when you go periods of time with no information.
[17:51] That's when bad stuff starts happening.
[17:54] Yeah. Yeah. That's like anything that the transparency in the process to right.
[17:59] So it's like, hey, no, no, no shady business going on here.
[18:02] This is the attorney said it would be three to five weeks.
[18:05] Okay. I'll let you know when I hear more.
[18:07] Yep.
[18:08] Stuff like that.
[18:09] Even something as simple as that of, hey, I contacted Bank of America.
[18:13] They said the legal department takes four to five business days.
[18:16] So I'm going to get back to them this, you know, they told me to come back on this day.
[18:21] And so now everybody's like, okay, like you're, we all understand that.
[18:25] We all understand that part.
[18:27] But if you just say I'm working on it, what does that mean?
[18:30] Yeah, right.
[18:32] Yeah, that's an instil confidence, which at least the suspicion.
[18:36] Well, great stuff, Carly.
[18:39] Thank you so much.
[18:40] We are unfortunately out of time for this episode.
[18:43] But as always, thank you for sharing your, your expertise.
[18:47] And you're, and you're just your point of view on all this super, super interesting and helpful.
[18:52] Thank you.
[18:53] Of course.
[18:54] That's it for today's episode of probate problems and practical solutions with Carly White's side of CopperwRen Law.
[19:01] If you want to learn more about how Carly and her team help Arizona families navigate probate,
[19:07] guardianship, and trust administration with clarity and care, visit their website copperwren law dot com.
[19:14] As always, thanks for listening.
[19:16] Don't forget to, you know, maybe leave us a thumbs up.
[19:19] Subscribe to the show.
[19:20] You can leave a review.
[19:21] You could share a link with someone in your world who might be facing probate soon.
[19:27] I'm Sean O'Connor.
[19:28] Have a great day.
[0:07] Hello everyone and welcome back to probate problems and practical solutions
[0:12] with Carly Whiteside, owner of Copper Red Law in Mesa, Arizona.
[0:17] Copper Red Law focuses on probate, probate litigation,
[0:21] guardianship, conservatorship and trust administration across the state.
[0:26] My name's Sean O'Connor and today Carly and I are talking about
[0:30] emotional dynamics that can complicate probate cases.
[0:34] We're going to talk about how family relationships, expectations
[0:38] and communication issues can influence the probate process and what family
[0:42] should be aware of as they move forward.
[0:45] Hello Carly, how are you?
[0:47] Good, how are you?
[0:48] I'm doing all right.
[0:50] I love these conversations, you know, the laws, the law, but then
[0:54] oh yeah, there's people involved.
[0:56] I forgot about that.
[0:58] Yeah, especially for us, especially for them.
[1:01] And families and then, you know, there's a death and it's a lot.
[1:06] I get it.
[1:07] What are you seeing in terms of family dynamics?
[1:10] You know, what tends to surface once a probate case begins?
[1:14] There's typically two roads that I will see.
[1:17] And that's everybody's fine, everybody's getting along
[1:21] and everybody's kind of working towards the same goal.
[1:24] They're fine with one person doing everything.
[1:27] No problem, right?
[1:28] We're just kind of marching with the steps.
[1:31] The other dynamic I see way, way, way more often is everybody's now
[1:37] going to use this as an opportunity to air all their grievances they've
[1:41] ever had.
[1:42] And it gets, it gets pretty nasty.
[1:47] Stuff will come up from 50 and 60 years ago.
[1:51] I'm not joking.
[1:52] Yeah.
[1:53] And you're like, you know, you have to listen and say,
[1:56] OK, I, I understand and that's not right.
[1:59] However, it's 40 years later.
[2:04] And that really doesn't have anything to do with what's happening.
[2:10] And so I've mentioned this in other episodes when it's kind of come up.
[2:13] But a lot of my job truly is listening and counseling.
[2:17] And just in your ear and saying like, look, I, I hear you.
[2:21] I agree with you actually morally.
[2:24] I'm on your side legally that has nothing to do with anything.
[2:28] And that is a very hard concept for a lot of people to understand.
[2:33] The emotions get very, very high when we're talking about personal property.
[2:38] So it's typically not money.
[2:40] People will have their things about the money.
[2:42] But it's mom promised me her China set that was in her cabinet forever.
[2:47] And now we've got two siblings saying mom is going to give it to me.
[2:50] And so now we've got to play the game of how do we break the tie?
[2:54] And so that's where I see the clause really come out.
[3:00] Yeah, always over the China.
[3:04] Yeah.
[3:05] Look, you take service for four.
[3:07] I'll take service for four and and we'll call it even.
[3:12] No, I saw that in my own family with my among my siblings and I were like,
[3:17] I don't believe any so and so is still going on and on about something that happened.
[3:23] They're like, you know, yeah, it happens.
[3:26] Right?
[3:27] The unresolved conflicts surface.
[3:31] It's interesting.
[3:32] What do, you know, how do differences in expectations among the,
[3:38] among the beneficiaries influence the process early?
[3:42] Kind of going back into the previous episode that we did about myths and misconceptions.
[3:49] A lot of people will do their own research and utilize AI platforms.
[3:54] And then it's not correct.
[3:57] And so they've come into this process with an idea or a thought of it's supposed to go this way,
[4:02] it's supposed to be this way.
[4:04] And then either me is the legal team or a client has to say,
[4:08] my client has to communicate and say, no, actually, according to Arizona,
[4:11] lots this.
[4:12] And so that can cause a lot of upheaval.
[4:15] Because I think, unfortunately, when this becomes very adversarial.
[4:20] People think because I am representing, let's say the personal representative.
[4:25] And I say, hey, actually, this is the process, right?
[4:27] I'm just giving you information.
[4:28] This is the process we're going to follow.
[4:31] They feel like because I'm representing the personal representative.
[4:34] I'm in with them.
[4:36] I'm on their side.
[4:39] It's like, actually not.
[4:41] Yes, they are my client.
[4:42] I have a duty of confidentiality and all the wonderful things.
[4:45] But in Arizona, probate law firms have a fiduciary responsibility to the beneficiaries of the estate.
[4:51] And what that means is I have to make sure that we're following the law.
[4:55] We're following the rules, whether it be in testate laws or the will, trust.
[4:59] And that my client is not committing any crimes.
[5:02] I'm not allowed to help them commit crimes.
[5:05] So I'm not helping them steal.
[5:08] I'm not, you know, in on it.
[5:10] That's the call I get the most from beneficiaries.
[5:13] I think the attorneys in on it with them.
[5:15] And I'm like, there's not enough money in that estate.
[5:18] I don't want.
[5:19] I don't want your mother's China.
[5:21] The firm.
[5:22] They're law license.
[5:23] Like, and I'm not saying it doesn't happen.
[5:26] There's bad people in any industry.
[5:28] So I'm not saying it's never happened.
[5:30] It's never going to happen.
[5:31] I'm saying most of the time that's not the case.
[5:33] So that's something where I see that there's an issue.
[5:36] Because maybe I'm trying to educate a beneficiary and say, hey, you're entitled to this.
[5:40] This is when this is going to happen.
[5:42] But they're hearing it through a filter of, well, you're my brother's counsel.
[5:45] So you're going to say whatever he's telling you to say.
[5:48] Right.
[5:49] No.
[5:50] Well,
[5:51] I think too.
[5:53] And it's not necessarily dysfunction.
[5:55] But there's oftentimes when, you know, siblings or family members.
[5:59] I just haven't been in touch or very close over the years.
[6:04] Communication's been limited.
[6:06] There may be some bad blood.
[6:07] But also it may just be a matter of, you know, we're just living separate lives, so to speak.
[6:12] How does that affect decision making during the case?
[6:15] What have you seen?
[6:16] So when I see a family that's maybe not contentious, but just estranged.
[6:22] Typically in the beginning, there's a lot of upheaval.
[6:26] There's a lot of questions, a lot of concerns.
[6:29] But they are more open to when I tell them things.
[6:34] So when I give them information, say you can double check me, you can go over here.
[6:38] It calms everything down.
[6:39] So really on those, I'll see a little bit of more groundwork up front.
[6:43] I tell my client, like, look, I know it's a little more expensive for me to have a conversation with each of your siblings.
[6:49] But I promise you it's going to help this go smooth for the rest of this because otherwise we're going to be doing this the whole time.
[6:55] And so we kind of have to make those decisions to say, hey, let's have the conversation, whether it's with me, maybe it doesn't need to get bumped up to the attorney.
[7:04] You know, just kind of depending on where they're at, but estranged families.
[7:09] Again, they kind of start off a little bit out of out of the depth, but then they all seem to kind of come back to earth fairly quickly because there isn't any animosity there.
[7:19] There's confusion, there's grieving, there's, you know, information.
[7:27] When did mom do that?
[7:29] Well, you know, 10 years ago, while you were living in Alaska, like, oh, okay.
[7:34] Yeah.
[7:36] Yeah.
[7:37] Let's talk about the personal representative and the role they play.
[7:41] When tensions arise, that you were kind of alluding to between beneficiaries.
[7:46] What's the personal representatives role there?
[7:49] They are the tiebreaker.
[7:51] Oh, somebody has to have the authority to make the decision at some point.
[7:56] So they are the ones that are the tiebreaker.
[7:59] You know, obviously they'll talk to me and be like, hey, you don't know my family.
[8:03] What would you do?
[8:04] You're a neutral person.
[8:06] Like, you don't have any, you know, you know, the dog in this fight.
[8:10] Um, so, but they, but that's why we have them as so we don't have a stalemate.
[8:15] Um, in the estate, and so the estate administration can continue to move forward.
[8:20] Um, a lot of the times what we'll do, I will tell my personal representative clients that there's a big dispute over a lot of personal property.
[8:28] We will basically have like an auction one day.
[8:32] And everybody can do their silent bids and whoever bids the most wins it.
[8:38] And then that way everybody's allowed an opportunity.
[8:41] And it's like, it's the fairest way to do it.
[8:43] It sucks.
[8:44] But if you can't, if you guys can't give and take and I've seen people dig their heels in.
[8:49] And it's a $20 item, but it doesn't matter.
[8:52] That's not what it's about.
[8:53] So.
[8:54] Not about the money.
[8:56] It's not.
[8:57] I have heard it's not the money.
[8:59] It's the principle probably more times than I care to.
[9:03] Which again, that's fine.
[9:04] I'm not arguing with you.
[9:05] I understand that.
[9:07] Yeah.
[9:08] But somebody has to be in charge to keep it moving.
[9:11] Otherwise, all of pretty much every probate would probably stall out at some point.
[9:15] Yeah.
[9:16] Yeah, they never get never get finished.
[9:17] Yeah, it would just get stuck.
[9:18] Are there, are there.
[9:19] Stam in the whole process can be emotional.
[9:21] I'm wondering if there are, you know, particular stages of probate where emotional conflict is highest.
[9:29] Is it the beginning, middle or their particular.
[9:32] When you're executing certain aspects of probate that people get triggered.
[9:36] What's.
[9:37] What about that?
[9:38] I would say the beginning.
[9:41] Figuring out who's going to be the personal representative if there's no will.
[9:46] Or even if there is a will, why did mom or dad pick you?
[9:50] I was the oldest.
[9:51] Yeah, but I was here.
[9:53] So now we're, we're kind of dealing with that.
[9:55] And again, that misconception that I've spoke about where they think because they're the personal representative, they can do whatever they want.
[10:01] Right.
[10:02] Yeah.
[10:03] I said that it's like an inside track or something, but it's not somehow.
[10:06] Someone's got to, someone's got to put the letter in the mail.
[10:09] Right.
[10:10] So I would say in the beginning is typically where I see kind of the most.
[10:15] A people.
[10:16] And then when we get to the distribution part.
[10:19] Is where I see.
[10:21] A people.
[10:22] Because now we outlined, you know, maybe the creditor claims we've outlined my fees we've outlined the CPA fees.
[10:28] And so those all come off the top.
[10:30] And then we're left with a percentage in Arizona personal representatives and trustees can track their time and get paid to do the job.
[10:38] It's $30 an hour is what's acceptable in Arizona that I've seen.
[10:44] I've seen some people charge a little more, but they were like a CPA or they were an attorney that was doing it for a family member.
[10:51] So it was maybe 40 or 50.
[10:53] You don't have to claim your time.
[10:55] It's just if you want to.
[10:57] So a lot of the times beneficiaries aren't expecting that.
[11:00] And so then we put a time sheet in there for them.
[11:02] And they're.
[11:03] They feel like they're stealing money.
[11:06] When I'm like, no, this is really a crappy job.
[11:10] Like being the person representative of trustee is a terrible job to be honest.
[11:14] It's it's not fun.
[11:16] And my firm will go through their time sheets before they go out.
[11:20] If there's anything in there that needs to be tweaked clarified, or it's just like you cannot charge for that.
[11:26] Yeah.
[11:27] We have conversations before it goes out.
[11:29] That's not necessarily true for.
[11:31] You know, other places I can only talk about what we do here.
[11:36] You know, when you're padding, padding the benefits here.
[11:38] It's a padding.
[11:40] I've seen it.
[11:40] I'm like nice try.
[11:42] Yeah.
[11:42] We're not buying you dinner.
[11:44] What about, you know, misunderstandings about the probate process itself.
[11:50] How does that contribute to disagreements?
[11:53] There typically always seems to be one beneficiary that is not the PR personal representative.
[11:58] That really feels like they know better.
[12:01] And they have, you know, they've researched.
[12:03] I've had many of them tell me I look this up.
[12:06] You're wrong.
[12:07] Yeah.
[12:08] Okay.
[12:09] So that's where I see that kind of come into play as if they're just kind of being stubborn.
[12:13] And then I'm like, hey, you know, you can consult your own attorney.
[12:17] I'm like, hey, you know, you can consult your own attorney.
[12:20] And they will talk to you about your rights.
[12:22] Like you don't have to take it from me.
[12:24] Right.
[12:25] Yeah.
[12:26] Well, you know, there's a lot of probate firms here that will do free consults.
[12:28] So you get 30 minutes where you get your questions answered.
[12:31] And they just refuse.
[12:33] So it's the ones that just are being told that's not correct.
[12:37] But they won't take any steps to verify that it's incorrect.
[12:41] Like they're just going to believe they're going to believe.
[12:43] And nothing can convince them.
[12:46] I've even had those kinds of people file things with the court.
[12:49] And the court's like, this is not a thing.
[12:51] Please do not come back.
[12:52] I will be upset.
[12:53] And they won't.
[12:55] They still are like, oh, no, I'm right.
[12:58] It's.
[12:59] Yeah.
[13:00] There's those ones.
[13:01] It's more about management and just getting through it than trying to control them.
[13:05] Yeah, you're not going to, you're not going to change who they are.
[13:08] No.
[13:09] You know, when, when communication begins to break down,
[13:14] that assumes that that is happening, you know, how does that impact,
[13:19] you know, say timelines or administration of the estate itself?
[13:25] So probate, the probate process in Arizona relies on participation
[13:30] from the personal representative, first and foremost, but also beneficiaries.
[13:34] There are checkpoints where we need them to review things, sign releases,
[13:38] and get them sent back to us.
[13:41] The beneficiaries.
[13:42] Yes.
[13:43] Yes.
[13:44] So like the admin, if I were, if I were an admin, and I have to go to my sisters
[13:49] and say, hey, we got to, you guys need to put your eyes on this and sign off.
[13:54] And, and they all live in different places and I need to kind of bird dog that.
[13:59] We, well, we send it out via certified mail, depending on what it is.
[14:03] And there's a form in there.
[14:04] We have a, you know, my firm creates a letter that explains what's going on.
[14:07] Hey, I need you to sign and send this back.
[14:09] If you have questions, call us, call the PR, depending on what's going on.
[14:14] Maybe we can clarify something, explain something.
[14:17] Sure.
[14:18] When people don't participate, they, maybe they're not being malicious.
[14:22] They're just doing nothing.
[14:24] Yeah.
[14:25] Sometimes then we have to get the court to approve things.
[14:28] Because we can't get them to say it looks good.
[14:31] So now to protect the personal representative in their capacity.
[14:36] Somebody's got to approve it.
[14:38] So if the pennies can't get on board to do it, then we have to spend more money.
[14:42] And file a petition with the court.
[14:44] Give everybody notice.
[14:46] And go through that route.
[14:48] So that will make things take longer.
[14:50] Because drafting a petition, getting my client to approve and sign it, filing it,
[14:56] getting a hearing date, you just added three to four months.
[14:59] Oh, wow.
[15:00] Right there.
[15:01] Yeah.
[15:03] And that's fast because we're at the mercy of the court.
[15:06] And when they can get a sentence.
[15:08] So sometimes I've gotten in and eight weeks.
[15:10] Sometimes I've set hearings 18, 19, 20 weeks out.
[15:14] Oh, wow.
[15:15] It's really just.
[15:16] And it's.
[15:17] And people will think it's an emergency.
[15:20] No.
[15:21] You getting money is not an emergency to the court.
[15:24] Yeah.
[15:25] Court thing.
[15:26] Somebody being hurt.
[15:27] Somebody in imminent danger.
[15:28] Somebody's actively stealing.
[15:31] That's.
[15:32] Yeah.
[15:33] Yeah.
[15:34] But getting this approved or getting something figured out the court's like it's just stuff.
[15:39] Yeah.
[15:40] Small potatoes.
[15:41] Yeah.
[15:42] Yeah.
[15:44] Well, yeah, that's interesting.
[15:46] Of course, it's all about whoever, when it's happening, you know, me, me, me.
[15:51] You know, with the, with a couple minutes, we have left Carly for, you know,
[15:55] for people out there families right now.
[15:57] Maybe they're like, okay, they're entering probate.
[16:01] They know they've got a complicated, familiar relationships.
[16:05] Maybe what would you say to help keep the focus on resolving the estate efficiently?
[16:12] Right?
[16:13] You've had these people walk in your office.
[16:15] I'm sure.
[16:16] So like, what do you wish people would or what would you recommend people do to navigate this when things get complicated?
[16:22] Or they know it's going to get complicated.
[16:24] If you know it's going to be a problem, you're like, I got one sibling.
[16:28] They're a problem.
[16:29] They've got to be a problem.
[16:30] They've been a problem their whole life.
[16:32] Higher in attorney.
[16:34] Okay.
[16:35] Because if you guys start going back and forth with your unrepresented motions and responses,
[16:41] one, they're not correct.
[16:45] Two, you're jamming up the court and you're not getting any resolution.
[16:51] If you have an attorney, they can cut people off.
[16:53] If we have people that are filing stuff over and over and over and it's harassment,
[16:58] it's going to hurt to basically bar them from being able to file.
[17:02] That's not something you can really do on your own.
[17:04] You can, but it's a lot harder and you've wasted time.
[17:08] Yeah.
[17:09] Because this process is now being dragged out to deal with this.
[17:13] I would also say that I've spoken on this before.
[17:17] Communication is the thing that I see the most that causes issues.
[17:21] Because when you give people no information, now you are allowing them and their imagination to just.
[17:27] You'll run wild and get in Chad's GPT and get on Google and all these other things.
[17:33] So if, if you feel like everybody's kind of okay, just keep people updated.
[17:38] Whether that's a family email once a month saying here's what I've done.
[17:42] If you're not going to have an attorney or a group chat.
[17:46] Something just to tell people because when you go periods of time with no information.
[17:51] That's when bad stuff starts happening.
[17:54] Yeah. Yeah. That's like anything that the transparency in the process to right.
[17:59] So it's like, hey, no, no, no shady business going on here.
[18:02] This is the attorney said it would be three to five weeks.
[18:05] Okay. I'll let you know when I hear more.
[18:07] Yep.
[18:08] Stuff like that.
[18:09] Even something as simple as that of, hey, I contacted Bank of America.
[18:13] They said the legal department takes four to five business days.
[18:16] So I'm going to get back to them this, you know, they told me to come back on this day.
[18:21] And so now everybody's like, okay, like you're, we all understand that.
[18:25] We all understand that part.
[18:27] But if you just say I'm working on it, what does that mean?
[18:30] Yeah, right.
[18:32] Yeah, that's an instil confidence, which at least the suspicion.
[18:36] Well, great stuff, Carly.
[18:39] Thank you so much.
[18:40] We are unfortunately out of time for this episode.
[18:43] But as always, thank you for sharing your, your expertise.
[18:47] And you're, and you're just your point of view on all this super, super interesting and helpful.
[18:52] Thank you.
[18:53] Of course.
[18:54] That's it for today's episode of probate problems and practical solutions with Carly White's side of CopperwRen Law.
[19:01] If you want to learn more about how Carly and her team help Arizona families navigate probate,
[19:07] guardianship, and trust administration with clarity and care, visit their website copperwren law dot com.
[19:14] As always, thanks for listening.
[19:16] Don't forget to, you know, maybe leave us a thumbs up.
[19:19] Subscribe to the show.
[19:20] You can leave a review.
[19:21] You could share a link with someone in your world who might be facing probate soon.
[19:27] I'm Sean O'Connor.
[19:28] Have a great day.
