Carly Whiteside Full EP 2
Carly Whiteside: Welcome to Probate Problems and Practical Solutions.
John Lieberman: Welcome back to Probate Problems and Practical Solutions with Carly Whiteside. Carly is the founder of Copper Ren Law. Carly started Copper Ren in 2023 as the first woman to solely, own an ABS law firm in the US bringing a client first mindset to complex problems. Probate guardianship and trust administration cases across Arizona. I'm John Lieberman. Today we are talking about a topic that, frankly confuses a lot of families. What is the difference between guardianship and conservatorship? And when might you need one? This is episode two, conservatorship versus Guardianship. What Arizona families need to know is. And speaking of need to know, we are joined by a special guest, Liz Cole, Carly's partner, and she's going to help us understand everything that we need to know. So, Liz, let me start with you. Can you walk us through kind of the basic difference between a conservatorship and a guardianship in the great state of Arizona?
Liz Cole: Yes. So in Arizona, the difference between a guardianship and a conservatorship is basically, when someone can step in to help you with your body is a guardianship. The medications that you take, the doctors that you see, the places that you live, the clothes that you wear, that's a guardianship. A conservatorship is somebody who steps into your shoes and can handle your assets, the things that you own, your vehicle, your bank accounts, the things that are in your home, tangible property, the real property that you own. If somebody needs to assist someone that owns a piece of property or has assets and they can't manage those things on their own anymore, they should consider whether a guardianship or conservatorship would be necessary for their situation.
John Lieberman: So, Liz, who can serve in these roles and kind of, what responsibilities do they have under the law?
Liz Cole: So in Arizona, there is a statute of priority for the different people who can be appointed and the order in which the court considers those purposes persons. Usually it's somebody who's been involved with this person for a long time, whether that's a friend that's living with them, whether that's a family member that's living with them, whether that's an adult child or a sibling. So it really depends on who's closest to this person and reaching out. You should talk to an attorney to see what the priority is for your appointment.
John Lieberman: And, Carly, let me bring you in. Are there signs a family might need to step in for a loved one, even if it's uncomfortable?
Carly Whiteside: Yes. typically, Arizona, we Have a lot of out of state residents that come here, to get away from the winter. So, a lot of the times the children are living out of state. Mom and dad are here and everything's fine on the phone, everything's great. But then we visit for Christmas and we look around the home and we go, okay, there might be some issues here. Maybe mom and dad have been saying, you know, some things on the phone like, oh, I paid that person. And they're like, who is this person? And so there needs to be a little bit more investigation. And we typically see things, spiral out of control a little bit more when kids are not close to check on parents or siblings or this family member. It's a lot of out of state. Most of the stuff we get, the concerned parties are out of state from the people that need maybe the possible guardianship or conservatorship.
John Lieberman: So I know that most families get along swimmingly, so I know this doesn't happen often. But what does happen when family members disagree about who should serve as the guardian or the conservator?
Liz Cole: It's usually a battle. And I usually advise my clients. If there's a way that you and your siblings can get on the same page, even if you can't agree amongst once another, one another for who should serve in that role, if you and your sibling can't agree, let's say there's just one son and one daughter. If they can't get on the same page, I would recommend rather than spending a ton of money fighting each other back and forth for who should have that role, there are some neutral fiduciary positions where you can appoint someone to serve in that position. I usually tell families when they come and work with me, if the concern here is to preserve the money, preserve the assets, let's find a way that we can collaborate and work together and save that the money for this family member that needs it, rather than fighting over appointment.
John Lieberman: So if the court does have to decide to appoint someone, kind of, how do they decide and what do families need to prove in that process?
Liz Cole: There's a different requirement for a guardianship than for a conservatorship. In a guardianship, somebody just needs to prove that they're not making safe decisions. And at that point, you would need to file something with the court for an intervention. You would need to meet with an attorney to decide whether it's an emergency situation. And you need something temporary and very fast. But that temporary appointment
00:05:00
Liz Cole: can expire in six months, nine months. So if you need something that's permanent. You want to talk to an attorney to see whether it makes sense to get an emergency temporary appointment or a permanent or both. And then whether a guardianship or a conservatorship is necessary for your parent. Maybe somebody needs help with their medical care, but all of their bills are automated or they have a financial power of attorney where somebody is helping them with their finances and they have that authority, and you only need a guardianship. There are those kinds of situations where it depends on what the family is experiencing and what kind of support you need. It is very tailored to the what that family is currently experiencing.
John Lieberman: I see, I see. And, and Carly, let me ask you this. What are some challenges that you all see when unprepared people take on role?
Carly Whiteside: So nobody wakes up in the morning and is like, I'm gonna take care of my family member and manage all their finances and manage all their medical decisions. And, you know, there's no training for that, really, that lay people do. it's usually something that you're kind of told, like, hey, you were. You were designated as their power of attorney, and you go, okay. And I think a lot of people, feel like, okay, it's my family member. I know what they want, but they get in a little too deep, and then they accidentally make mistakes. Not on purpose. A lot of the. I would say most of the people we talk to that have kind of gone through the process and then ask for our help, they're not malicious. It's totally, oh, my gosh, I thought I was doing the right thing. It's a whoopsie. How do I fix it? And so we like to tell people, you know, if you don't know how to do something, reach out to an attorney, ask them questions, you know, see if it makes sense to engage them to assist you. Like Elizabeth said, there's many fiduciaries. So say a family member is comfortable making medical decisions, but the bills and the finances is just out of their realm. We can bring somebody in to assist with that so you can get the help that you need for the areas that you need. And so a lot of the times when we see issues is because people have tried to Google their way through. And while Google is a great tool for some things, this is typically not one of them. We, you know, we've had issues with ChatGPT giving you wrong information. But, you know, so that's usually what we see is people have tried to DIY this, and then they come to us and we're like, okay, there's a little bit of cleanup to get you back to good, and then we'll proceed. So that's usually what kind of the issues we see is. Is it's accidental.
John Lieberman: And I just want to follow up on that, Carly, because you brought up a great point, which is, you know, people trying to DIY it through Google or ChatGPT or. Or whatever, and then, of course, getting led down the wrong road. What kind of damage can that do? Is it. Is it a case. Is it more a case of sort of making the timeline longer to get all of this done because you're starting from a negative position, because you've made some wrong decisions? Or what are some of the ramifications if you try to DIY it, as you say?
Carly Whiteside: So to open a guardianship and conservatorship matter in Arizona with the courts is an extremely complicated process. I know I struggled with it at first. Being a trained paralegal, I had to get comfortable with what the courts are wanting, what the judges are wanting. That does change from six months to a year, you'll file everything, and then the next time you're in, they want something completely different. and it's constantly evolving, and there's really no good way to go find that information. Even for us as a law firm, it is very trial and error, communicating with the judicial assistants. It's very kind of informal how this information gets distributed. And it's almost trial and error. So when you are a somebody who's unrepresented and you're trying to fill out this mountain of documents to basically tell the court like, hey, I need to be involved for this person who's still alive, you're under a vast amount of scrutiny. And one little typo, one little oopsie, the court will just say, nope, start over. I don't want any of it. Toss it. And so we see people, like you said, get into almost a negative position to start, rather than starting from the starting gate, which is already a mountain to climb. Now we're starting, you know, in the Valley. And so we have to explain to them, like, unfortunately, now it is going to cost you more time and funds to get you caught up and then proceed. And these things are. The. These things are very expensive even to start, which is, you know, kind of an issue already. so to start from a negative position, it just kind of compounds the issues that we see.
John Lieberman: For someone considering a conservatorship or guardianship, what are the very first steps that you recommend?
Liz Cole: I would say call an attorney. if you want to call off our office, I'm happy to talk with you. But if you can avoid a guardianship and a conservatorship in Arizona with a power of attorney document or with a trust document, or with something where it gives you control
00:10:00
Liz Cole: over that family member, it allows you to step into their shoes without involving the courts, that's going to be a more streamlined process, it's going to be more affordable, and it's likely going to preserve the assets of the person that may need that protection. The sooner you can meet with an attorney to figure out the best way to handle that with a loved one, the better, because you can maybe sidestep a guardianship or a conservatorship with some of these other options that we have for filings. And if you can avoid a guardianship and a conservatorship, you're saving yourself a lot of money. The initial filings, the initial draftings, the appointment of counsel, there's just a lot of upfront costs that can be avoided, and you don't have the option to avoid that. If you DIY it and you file these things and you're already starting a matter in the courts, you can't just turn around and pretend that didn't happen and walk away. You have to kind of close some of those things and move in a different direction.
John Lieberman: Very helpful. All right, Liz, Carly, thank you so much. And that will do it for this episode of Probate problems and practical solutions. If you're dealing with a guardianship or conservatorship issue In Arizona, visit CopperRenLaw.com for helpful guidance, compassionate support, and of course, to speak with Liz and or Carly. It's really a good decision to make. And also, please don't forget to, like, subscribe and leave a review if today's episode was helpful to you. Thank you so much.
Liz Cole: Thank you.
Carly Whiteside: Thank you. Thanks for watching. Be sure to hit that like and subscribe button and leave us a review in the comments.
00:11:34
Carly Whiteside: Welcome to Probate Problems and Practical Solutions.
John Lieberman: Welcome back to Probate Problems and Practical Solutions with Carly Whiteside. Carly is the founder of Copper Ren Law. Carly started Copper Ren in 2023 as the first woman to solely, own an ABS law firm in the US bringing a client first mindset to complex problems. Probate guardianship and trust administration cases across Arizona. I'm John Lieberman. Today we are talking about a topic that, frankly confuses a lot of families. What is the difference between guardianship and conservatorship? And when might you need one? This is episode two, conservatorship versus Guardianship. What Arizona families need to know is. And speaking of need to know, we are joined by a special guest, Liz Cole, Carly's partner, and she's going to help us understand everything that we need to know. So, Liz, let me start with you. Can you walk us through kind of the basic difference between a conservatorship and a guardianship in the great state of Arizona?
Liz Cole: Yes. So in Arizona, the difference between a guardianship and a conservatorship is basically, when someone can step in to help you with your body is a guardianship. The medications that you take, the doctors that you see, the places that you live, the clothes that you wear, that's a guardianship. A conservatorship is somebody who steps into your shoes and can handle your assets, the things that you own, your vehicle, your bank accounts, the things that are in your home, tangible property, the real property that you own. If somebody needs to assist someone that owns a piece of property or has assets and they can't manage those things on their own anymore, they should consider whether a guardianship or conservatorship would be necessary for their situation.
John Lieberman: So, Liz, who can serve in these roles and kind of, what responsibilities do they have under the law?
Liz Cole: So in Arizona, there is a statute of priority for the different people who can be appointed and the order in which the court considers those purposes persons. Usually it's somebody who's been involved with this person for a long time, whether that's a friend that's living with them, whether that's a family member that's living with them, whether that's an adult child or a sibling. So it really depends on who's closest to this person and reaching out. You should talk to an attorney to see what the priority is for your appointment.
John Lieberman: And, Carly, let me bring you in. Are there signs a family might need to step in for a loved one, even if it's uncomfortable?
Carly Whiteside: Yes. typically, Arizona, we Have a lot of out of state residents that come here, to get away from the winter. So, a lot of the times the children are living out of state. Mom and dad are here and everything's fine on the phone, everything's great. But then we visit for Christmas and we look around the home and we go, okay, there might be some issues here. Maybe mom and dad have been saying, you know, some things on the phone like, oh, I paid that person. And they're like, who is this person? And so there needs to be a little bit more investigation. And we typically see things, spiral out of control a little bit more when kids are not close to check on parents or siblings or this family member. It's a lot of out of state. Most of the stuff we get, the concerned parties are out of state from the people that need maybe the possible guardianship or conservatorship.
John Lieberman: So I know that most families get along swimmingly, so I know this doesn't happen often. But what does happen when family members disagree about who should serve as the guardian or the conservator?
Liz Cole: It's usually a battle. And I usually advise my clients. If there's a way that you and your siblings can get on the same page, even if you can't agree amongst once another, one another for who should serve in that role, if you and your sibling can't agree, let's say there's just one son and one daughter. If they can't get on the same page, I would recommend rather than spending a ton of money fighting each other back and forth for who should have that role, there are some neutral fiduciary positions where you can appoint someone to serve in that position. I usually tell families when they come and work with me, if the concern here is to preserve the money, preserve the assets, let's find a way that we can collaborate and work together and save that the money for this family member that needs it, rather than fighting over appointment.
John Lieberman: So if the court does have to decide to appoint someone, kind of, how do they decide and what do families need to prove in that process?
Liz Cole: There's a different requirement for a guardianship than for a conservatorship. In a guardianship, somebody just needs to prove that they're not making safe decisions. And at that point, you would need to file something with the court for an intervention. You would need to meet with an attorney to decide whether it's an emergency situation. And you need something temporary and very fast. But that temporary appointment
00:05:00
Liz Cole: can expire in six months, nine months. So if you need something that's permanent. You want to talk to an attorney to see whether it makes sense to get an emergency temporary appointment or a permanent or both. And then whether a guardianship or a conservatorship is necessary for your parent. Maybe somebody needs help with their medical care, but all of their bills are automated or they have a financial power of attorney where somebody is helping them with their finances and they have that authority, and you only need a guardianship. There are those kinds of situations where it depends on what the family is experiencing and what kind of support you need. It is very tailored to the what that family is currently experiencing.
John Lieberman: I see, I see. And, and Carly, let me ask you this. What are some challenges that you all see when unprepared people take on role?
Carly Whiteside: So nobody wakes up in the morning and is like, I'm gonna take care of my family member and manage all their finances and manage all their medical decisions. And, you know, there's no training for that, really, that lay people do. it's usually something that you're kind of told, like, hey, you were. You were designated as their power of attorney, and you go, okay. And I think a lot of people, feel like, okay, it's my family member. I know what they want, but they get in a little too deep, and then they accidentally make mistakes. Not on purpose. A lot of the. I would say most of the people we talk to that have kind of gone through the process and then ask for our help, they're not malicious. It's totally, oh, my gosh, I thought I was doing the right thing. It's a whoopsie. How do I fix it? And so we like to tell people, you know, if you don't know how to do something, reach out to an attorney, ask them questions, you know, see if it makes sense to engage them to assist you. Like Elizabeth said, there's many fiduciaries. So say a family member is comfortable making medical decisions, but the bills and the finances is just out of their realm. We can bring somebody in to assist with that so you can get the help that you need for the areas that you need. And so a lot of the times when we see issues is because people have tried to Google their way through. And while Google is a great tool for some things, this is typically not one of them. We, you know, we've had issues with ChatGPT giving you wrong information. But, you know, so that's usually what we see is people have tried to DIY this, and then they come to us and we're like, okay, there's a little bit of cleanup to get you back to good, and then we'll proceed. So that's usually what kind of the issues we see is. Is it's accidental.
John Lieberman: And I just want to follow up on that, Carly, because you brought up a great point, which is, you know, people trying to DIY it through Google or ChatGPT or. Or whatever, and then, of course, getting led down the wrong road. What kind of damage can that do? Is it. Is it a case. Is it more a case of sort of making the timeline longer to get all of this done because you're starting from a negative position, because you've made some wrong decisions? Or what are some of the ramifications if you try to DIY it, as you say?
Carly Whiteside: So to open a guardianship and conservatorship matter in Arizona with the courts is an extremely complicated process. I know I struggled with it at first. Being a trained paralegal, I had to get comfortable with what the courts are wanting, what the judges are wanting. That does change from six months to a year, you'll file everything, and then the next time you're in, they want something completely different. and it's constantly evolving, and there's really no good way to go find that information. Even for us as a law firm, it is very trial and error, communicating with the judicial assistants. It's very kind of informal how this information gets distributed. And it's almost trial and error. So when you are a somebody who's unrepresented and you're trying to fill out this mountain of documents to basically tell the court like, hey, I need to be involved for this person who's still alive, you're under a vast amount of scrutiny. And one little typo, one little oopsie, the court will just say, nope, start over. I don't want any of it. Toss it. And so we see people, like you said, get into almost a negative position to start, rather than starting from the starting gate, which is already a mountain to climb. Now we're starting, you know, in the Valley. And so we have to explain to them, like, unfortunately, now it is going to cost you more time and funds to get you caught up and then proceed. And these things are. The. These things are very expensive even to start, which is, you know, kind of an issue already. so to start from a negative position, it just kind of compounds the issues that we see.
John Lieberman: For someone considering a conservatorship or guardianship, what are the very first steps that you recommend?
Liz Cole: I would say call an attorney. if you want to call off our office, I'm happy to talk with you. But if you can avoid a guardianship and a conservatorship in Arizona with a power of attorney document or with a trust document, or with something where it gives you control
00:10:00
Liz Cole: over that family member, it allows you to step into their shoes without involving the courts, that's going to be a more streamlined process, it's going to be more affordable, and it's likely going to preserve the assets of the person that may need that protection. The sooner you can meet with an attorney to figure out the best way to handle that with a loved one, the better, because you can maybe sidestep a guardianship or a conservatorship with some of these other options that we have for filings. And if you can avoid a guardianship and a conservatorship, you're saving yourself a lot of money. The initial filings, the initial draftings, the appointment of counsel, there's just a lot of upfront costs that can be avoided, and you don't have the option to avoid that. If you DIY it and you file these things and you're already starting a matter in the courts, you can't just turn around and pretend that didn't happen and walk away. You have to kind of close some of those things and move in a different direction.
John Lieberman: Very helpful. All right, Liz, Carly, thank you so much. And that will do it for this episode of Probate problems and practical solutions. If you're dealing with a guardianship or conservatorship issue In Arizona, visit CopperRenLaw.com for helpful guidance, compassionate support, and of course, to speak with Liz and or Carly. It's really a good decision to make. And also, please don't forget to, like, subscribe and leave a review if today's episode was helpful to you. Thank you so much.
Liz Cole: Thank you.
Carly Whiteside: Thank you. Thanks for watching. Be sure to hit that like and subscribe button and leave us a review in the comments.
00:11:34
