Beside, Inside, and Outside AI with Chad Michel

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dot com. Hey, welcome back to dot net Rocks. I'm
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Carl Franklin and Averdrew Campbell and this is episode twenty sixteen.
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Yeah, we're almost out of this curse history. I mean,
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he's a little fun. It's a little fun. I like
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the research part, but you know, it's quite fun. And
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it reminds me of how much I missed doing geek
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outs with you. We stuck one in this summer.
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Yeap. Chad Michael is here. He might be jumping in
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during the during the intro here. But yeah, but first
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it's being a show. Twenty sixteen. Let's talk about what
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happened that year.
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Where do you want to go?
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Well, Donald Trump elected President of the United States true
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true Brexit referendum. Yeah, UK, it was a slim vote,
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you remember, that was fifty two to forty.
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Eight fifty two forty eight. Yeah, oh my god, Cambridge
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Analytica generating ads for individuals that didn't know they're the
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only ones seeing them.
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David Cameron resigned of.
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An engineering practice. Of course he did, because he played
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this stupid game with chicking with a non binding referendum,
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like you idiot, I was dumb.
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I think they have serious remorse now.
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Yeah, mostly I think a lot of people, do you
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know every time we're in London or in every time
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I'm in London at the Q, there's always somebody down
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there saying let's rejoin. Yeah, so you know at the
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protest corner.
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Yeah, not only that, trying to get imports and exports
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is crazy.
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Oh yeah, they're still just you know, talk about a
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cell phone terrible.
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Isis grew and attacks in Brussels, niece istanbul Berlin, Orlando
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and that was bad. Yeah, all this this is all
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the bad stuff. Richard's going to talk about the good stuff.
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Don't forget the Panama papers.
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There has to be some good news, right, Yeah.
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There'll be some couple of issues with Yeah, a couple
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of interesting you remember the Panama papers. They came out
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that year too, the Panama Papers and yes, and that
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was just a you know, I was thinking about it
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when I reminded of them, because we all forget about
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it immediately. It was sort of that was the reveal
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of here's all this offshore banking that politicians and wealthy
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people and celebrities do and so forth. Yeah, it was
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a leak yeaheah. And I mean it happened before. In
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like twenty seventeen, there'll be the Paradise papers. In twenty
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twenty one, there be a Pandora papers. It keeps happening,
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nothing ever changes, which I think is part of the
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you know, you talk about how angry folks are these days,
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and it's the elite show that they're they're avoiding the
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rules or they're violating the rules and with no consequences,
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and then there's no consequences, Like, gee, I wonder why
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people are annoyed.
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Yes, yes, yes, all right, so I'll move on. Syrian
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Civil War, Battle of Aleppo, yep, bad.
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Yeah, Zica lives, Zica virus epidemic, oh yeah, and the
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real Olympics at the same time. Yep. That was fun,
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very scary.
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Yeah, there's lots of fun. Chief Justice Antonine Scullia died
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right that year, Black Lives matter and police shootings. It
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was a lot of unrest. Ye, not very long ago.
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Ten years the impeachment of Brazilian President Dilma Roseph. Yeah,
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Colombia's peace agreement with FARC after.
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That's really good news. Those guys have been fighting for
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twenty years.
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That was good news. Yeah, fifty years Columbia signed a
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revised pieace agreement with fark Gorilla movement. The Flint, Michigan
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water crisis, who could forget.
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Yep, lots of people, unfortunately.
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I don't even know if they've cleaned that up yet.
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I think the answer would be no. But it's just
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a shame. I mean, eventually the pipes will recode themselves.
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But yeah, it's you know, dangering people for no good reason.
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Fidel Castro smoked his last cigar in twenty sixteenth.
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Yeah, twenty sixteen.
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Hurricane Matthew devastated Haiti before striking the southeastern United States.
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Not good, that's if the Haitians needed another hit.
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Some cultural icons who died that year, Muhammad Ali, David Bowie,
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Prince Carrie Fisher.
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That's a tough year, man, just not a good thing. Yeah,
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tough year.
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Yeah, and you already mentioned the Summer Olympics and Reo Degonio,
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the Mosquitoes, the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando happened. Just
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not good, all right, Richard, cheer me up, will you?
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I would argue, the single most important thing that happens
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in twenty sixteen, but I am a geek, was the
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turning on of the Ligo gravitational wave detector. Yeah. Now,
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this is a weird thing to talk about in some respects,
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but you understand, like human senses generally deal with photons,
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and even when we build our instruments like radio telescopes
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and all those sorts of things, hubble, it's all collecting photons. Now,
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photons come in a lot of varieties, from radio waves
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to gamma rays, right, but they're all still photons. But
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we learn ways to extend our senses, right, and arguably
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we created a new sense back in the nineteen sixties
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when we learned how to detect the new trino. Yep,
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something you cannot see. It goes right through you cannot
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you know, touch goes right through you. But we built
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neutrino detectors, a new sense. And then the next time
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is in twenty sixteen, with LIGO because Ligo actually detects
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gravitational distortion. Now there's something that Einstein had predicted one
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hundred years earlier, that gravity can actually be distorted with
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sufficient force, and so building a detector that isolated everything
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so it could only measure variations in gravitational energy was
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really a difficult thing to do. And right off the
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bat as it was turned on, one of the first
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things the detected was two black holes colliding, and that
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was just created this ripple through space time that Ligo
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could measure.
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You could argue that Gene run Berry had an idea
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about it before twenty.
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Sixteen, general idea about a lot of things, but you
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know that a new sense for humanity does not come
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along very often. And since then, well, the following year
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they finally did a multimodal astronomy and fundamentally, Theligo instrument
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is an astronomy instrument for measuring where they detected two
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neutron stars colliding, and also then we're able to collect
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gamma ray information from a gamma ray telescope of the
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same event, along with visible light, X ray radio and
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so forth. One of the things that came from that
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was it proved the math that showed that an awful
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lot of heavy elements like platinums and golden things come
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from those kinds of collisions, that the explosion from that
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is where those heavier elements come from. And since then
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there's been two well, Ligo itself's been improved, but two
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others have been built, Virgo and Caagra in Japan, and
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so now they have three of them working together to
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be able to do more detailed triangulation of gravitational motion.
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Just we don't get a new sense very often, and
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this is the last one and an important one. It's
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been going for ten years now. On the space side,
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in March, we get our astronauts. Scott Kelly returns from
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his year in space, the longest in an American ever
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spent in space. Yeah, and he has a twin and
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so they were able to compare the genetic differences between
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them and show the consequences of what goes on in space.
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He wrote a really cool book about it too. It's interesting.
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In April, Falcon nine full Thrust lands on a barge
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for the first time. So the first landing was in
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twenty fifteen. In December on land it's the first time
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I'll actually land on a barge, which is very tricky,
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and that same booster will then fly again the following year,
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and it may there'll be two more landings, but in
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June one will fail. Like there, you know, SpaceX is
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getting there and nothing's perfect yet. In fact, in all
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twenty six years, that's pretty tough year for SpaceX because
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not only did they get to start getting the landings right,
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we're still losing a few. But in September a static
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fire test on a Falcon nine on Pad forty will
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result in an explodeion and the loss of the payload.
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The almost six side.
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Where were we and when, Richard, when we were in
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a pub somewhere maybe London, watching the landing of Falcon
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nine and it just completely exploded. Do you remember that?
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No, there's a few of those, or he might have
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been one of the starship landings. Could they try it
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over and over again? The problem is that when the
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booster is on its way down, it has so little
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fuel in it now that even if the low is
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thrust on one of the engines, they can't hover. There's
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too much power. So they have to do this slam
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landing where they basically have our suicide burn. They have
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to time it so that as it's accelerating it hits
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the deck at zero speed. If you run it too late,
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it slams into the barge. If you run it too early,
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you end up going back up. So this is one
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of the advantages that New Glenn has where New Glenn
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can actually hover that the vehicle is having enough and
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the engine get thrown low enough that they can actually
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hover and then land it. But the Falcon nine has
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never been able to. It literally has to time it
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perfect to come to a stop as it touches the
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deck and the deck is moving. Bonus. Also in April,
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the BM module goes to the International Space Station. This
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is an inflatable habitation module. It's actually fairly small. It
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was a test article. They use it as a closet
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to this day. We talked about inflatable modules for years
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and year years. Bigelow Aerospace did a couple of tests
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and so forth. This is the real proof point, and
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you know the reality is that things now been up
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there ten years and just fine, And it just opens
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the door to future vehicles using inflatable modules. Stuff that
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you can fit into a payload fairing, but is much bigger.
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When you actually go to use it. In July, the
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Juno spacecraft arise at Jupiter. This is only the second
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spacecraft to ever go in orbit around Jupiter. The first
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was Galileo. What was cool about Juno is its solar powered,
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and that's really hard at Jupiter. They have a huge
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set three big solar arrays on Juno. If that satellite
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was orbiting around the Earth, those arrays would generate fourteen
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kilowatts or fourteen thousand watts of electricity At Jupiter they
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four hundred, but that's enough to operate the vehicle. Originally
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planned to operate for two years only to twenty eighteen,
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it has been The mission has been extended multiple times
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and is currently going to run till at least twenty
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twenty eight and finally for space in September of twenty sixteen.
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China Lung since the Tianggong two that's Heavenly Palaced to
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space station. This was another experimental space station before they
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put up the full Tiangong which is the one that's
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up there now. They test a bunch of technologies. It
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runs for a couple of years, is de orbited in
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twenties nineteen, but it definitely was a milestone for China
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becoming a having a real expandable space station like Mirror,
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which is what they've cut today. Over the computing side,
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in February, Jet Brains releases Cotland. Yeah, because life's too
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short to code in Java. Also in February, Microsoft acquires Zamarin.
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Long time coming. We thought it would have happened in
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twenty fourteen. You and I were there in February when
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they announced it. In fact, we published at net Rocks
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about it that we'd recorded in advance with permission. Yeah.
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That was with McAllan Nat right.
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And yeah, a huge deal, you know, bringing mobile and
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Mobile stack into Microsoft, bringing Miguel and Nat into Microsoft
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as well. Along with that a whole team, which is
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many of them are still there.
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It was very exciting.
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Yeah, great time that was. That was a big especially
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for mobile development.
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Yeah oh yeah, and you know it's still a struggle
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to this day. You know, we could have a whole
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debate about that. In March Alpha Go beats Lee Seito.
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This is deep mind m hm. And you know, one
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of the big AI milestones a game Go that's supposed
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to be unplayable by software find like Deep Blue cracked
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chess with kasprov in ninety seven and Deep Mind in
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Alpha Go Crack Go. Apparently it was a big deal
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in China. They thought they considered their game and really
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kicked off a huge AA initiative for them as well.
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Hey, if we can go back to Zamoran for a minute. Yeah,
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you said, that is still a challenge to this day.
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I got to tell you that I wrote a Maui
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Blazer hybrid app use Codex as an AI helper in
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a weekend, and it helped me with everything from hey,
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give me the commands to wipe database so I could
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run this all again, to you know, fixing UI problems
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like I never ever ever saw the code right and
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it just worked brilliantly.
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So so what I hear you're saying is the solution
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to cross platform software development is right. That's right. I
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appreciate that. All right, continue on the AI lines. We
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talked about Alpha Go. Let's talk about Microsoft Day. Oh yeah,
249
00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:40.960
never Microsoft Day. They put it on Twitter.
250
00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:44.039
Yeah, it was highly opinionated and quite racist.
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00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:47.399
Well eventually, initially it was the emulation of a nineteen
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00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:50.720
year old American girl, but it turned into Nazi youth
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fairly quickly, and it was turned off at sixteen hours
254
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later with many apologies.
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I remember.
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00:12:57.799 --> 00:13:00.120
Uh. That's also when they shipped a framework for or
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six' to. Two and then In june dot net core
258
00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:06.919
one they open sourcing at dot. Net it finally comes,
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00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:09.440
true and they did it with AN mit, license not
260
00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:12.080
even THE ms, license which is. Awesome that is. Awesome
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00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:16.720
also In, june and again we were, there you AND i,
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One Steve, sanderson while AT Nbc oslo shows off a
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00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:25.159
makeshift tool that allows him through web assembly to write
264
00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:28.440
sea sharp that runs in the. Browser he uses a
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00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:30.679
bizarre version of c sharp because it had to be
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compilable INTO c plus. Plus but it, works and all
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of our heads exploded at that. Moment everybody went nets
268
00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:42.679
all freaked. Out the beginning Of, Blazer, yeah beginning Of.
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00:13:42.679 --> 00:13:46.240
Blazer also In, June microsoft Acquired LinkedIn for a giant
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00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:48.600
pole of, money and that will Recruit Kevin scott into the,
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company who will later build the relationship with Open. Ai
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last couple of, things actually this he's a vague, thing
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00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:55.919
But i've really been thinking about how to talk about
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this because we did shows around. This this is the
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year of Of kubernetes And docker and really containerization in the.
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00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:07.360
Cloud you, know THE cncf had formed the year before
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00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:08.840
and it was just sort of getting its feet under.
278
00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:11.519
It BUT i remember us talking about How mazos And
279
00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:15.039
swarm Like kubernetes was winning as the. Orchestrator the things
280
00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:18.399
were consolidating on this methodology of becoming a cloud. Native
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that's really what.
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00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:21.600
Starts do you remember who told us first About docker
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00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:23.879
on dot net rocks WHERE i heard it? First?
284
00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:28.480
Anyway who it Was Ben hall right AT. Nbc, yeah, yeah,
285
00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:30.120
Yeah and it had been around for a, while but
286
00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:32.759
it was mostly in The linux. Space and you realize
287
00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:34.519
now that we had dot net, core like we were
288
00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:36.200
going to be able to play in The linux. Space
289
00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:38.799
finally it all sort of came together in twenty sixty
290
00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:39.360
and that's WHAT i.
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00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:42.799
Got, awesome all, right, well this is good. News let's
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00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:44.399
roll the music for better no. Framework?
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00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:53.720
Awesome all, right, man what do you? GOT i have
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00:14:53.799 --> 00:14:56.759
something new from guests Who Simon. Crop how did you,
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00:14:56.840 --> 00:15:00.399
know because it's always he's he's.
296
00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:05.159
Awesome so he was one of the guys who convinced
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00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:11.440
me to use THE Osmf Open Source Maintenance fee With,
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00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:14.440
polly which will, yes which will go into effect In,
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00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:18.639
november so he was we were talking about how do
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00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:22.840
you enforce? That and you, know the consensus, was you,
301
00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:25.960
know companies that make money with software want to do
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00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:27.759
the right. Thing they want to be in. Compliance if
303
00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:31.320
it's in the license, agreement they will. Comply but you,
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00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:34.440
know he he comes up. With simon comes up with
305
00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:39.679
this thing called sponsor check build time sponsorship verification for
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00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.679
new get. Packages, interesting and the keyword here is, nudge
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00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:48.039
nudge consumers of AN oss library to sponsor its, author
308
00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:51.679
in the spirit of the open source maintenance fee gentle
309
00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:54.840
nudging plus honesty rather than run TIME.
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00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:58.519
Drm. Right isn't that? Cool, no it's fairly smart and it's. Cool,
311
00:15:58.840 --> 00:15:59.559
yeah it's a good.
312
00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:03.159
Idea it's just probably a one line text. Thing when
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00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:05.919
you install and you download a new get package or something,
314
00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:09.879
whatever so you install sponsor check as a development. Dependency
315
00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:12.919
at pack, time it fetches the author's sponsor list from
316
00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:16.840
the configured sponsorship, platforms which are get Ub, Sponsors Open,
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00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:22.240
collective and Polar hashes each account and builds bundles a
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00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:25.720
build time verifier into the produced new get package without
319
00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:29.559
adding any runtime dependency to that. Package when a consumer
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00:16:29.559 --> 00:16:33.039
builds against that. Package the verifier requires one of three license,
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00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.240
modes a sponsor account that matches the bundled, list a
322
00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:40.000
time bounded private, license or an explicit ignored with a build.
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00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:43.080
Warning so there you. Go, cool always, Thinking, simon thank.
324
00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:45.559
You oh, yeah so he's talking to. Us richard grab a.
325
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:47.519
Comment off for show two thousand and, five the one
326
00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:52.120
we did with Ms rendel talking about their Agent Harness DAMONIC,
327
00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:54.799
ai and we got this comment from And i'm pretty
328
00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:57.480
sure it's not his real, Name Carl, Sagan Benjamin, franklin
329
00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:03.440
Boys Areford TOM. CSBF i have been negative on the
330
00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:07.079
whole deluge OF ai episodes, lately but this one was pretty,
331
00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:10.200
good interesting take ON ai as a. Whole on Comment,
332
00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:12.799
FORERENDEL i listened to the entire episode and checked Out
333
00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:15.359
demonic On, GitHub and to be, HONEST i still don't
334
00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:18.279
really understand what this thing. Is i'm really interested in
335
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:20.240
OWN i will be following, it but the messaging is
336
00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:23.119
still a bit. Confusing but say that's normal this in this,
337
00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:26.079
point we're all. Confused, yeah, well let me think about
338
00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:29.119
how much The aspire guys to just battle describe What
339
00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:32.720
aspire was. About we are all. Struggling we know we
340
00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:34.720
need some. Tools we're just trying to figure out what it's.
341
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:38.400
About AND i appreciate the frustration on the deluge OF,
342
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:41.039
ai but you, know let's face, it like it's coming
343
00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:43.720
at us from all. Angles i'm trying to make case
344
00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:46.119
study type like show me the. Work when we think
345
00:17:46.119 --> 00:17:48.359
about the shows you've done with fishwaws like that kind of,
346
00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:51.960
THING i think we've done enough speculative. Shows although this
347
00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:55.000
conversation should be thinking next order as, well which is
348
00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:57.640
one of the REASONS i read this. Comment SO, csbf
349
00:17:57.799 --> 00:17:59.599
thank you for your. COMMENT a copy of music O
350
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:01.519
by its on its way to. You if you'd like
351
00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:03.000
a copy, music go. BUY i write a comment on
352
00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:04.920
the website at dot NetRocks dot com or on The,
353
00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:07.000
facebook so we publish every show there and if you
354
00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:08.839
comment there and a reading the, show we'll send you
355
00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:10.039
copy music copy.
356
00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:11.960
And if you can't do, that just go get it
357
00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:15.319
music toocode by dot. Net it's a bunch of twenty
358
00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:18.519
five minute tracks to help you stay in a state
359
00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:21.599
of flow while you're writing code or doing anything that requires.
360
00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:26.519
Focus and with, that you heard. Him now let's introduce
361
00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:30.720
him for the second. Time chadmichael is. Here last time
362
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:34.480
you were on was episode seventeen fifty seven In september
363
00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:35.160
twenty twenty.
364
00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:35.880
One you And Doug.
365
00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:40.880
Durham we're talking about from software developer to software. Engineer well,
366
00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:45.680
Anyway chadmichael IS cto At Don't Panic labs and has
367
00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:51.359
built a career crafting high quality custom software solutions while
368
00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:54.039
mentoring developers training.
369
00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:54.839
IN bjj AND.
370
00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:57.480
Tkd i'm sure he's going to explain what those are
371
00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:00.680
and enjoying family life In, Lincoln. Nebraska welcome, back glad
372
00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.519
to be, Back thank you all. Right ACRONYMS bjj AND.
373
00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:07.200
TKD bgj would Be brazilian jiu. Jitsu you, know trying
374
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:09.920
to fold people with their clothes on is kind of
375
00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:10.480
what that one?
376
00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:13.519
Is old people with hold their clothes while they're still wearing.
377
00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:17.000
Them, yes or murder yoga is that sometimes?
378
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:21.799
Called and taekwondo is the other, One, yeah.
379
00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:26.960
Taekwondo So i'm often in much? Pain really is? Really?
380
00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:27.319
What it just?
381
00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:29.119
Matters they walk around in constant.
382
00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:33.039
Pain does your family have to pry you back vertical
383
00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.119
after one of these training?
384
00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:38.039
Sessions the amount of, time, yes THAT i am like
385
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:40.599
in some sort of horrible amount of pain is pretty.
386
00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:42.319
High is there much? Crepitis?
387
00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:45.559
Yes everything. HURTS i ACTUALLY i THINK i have a
388
00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:47.279
mark in my head this from training this.
389
00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:50.279
MORNING i thought that was Your Harry potter. Mark, There, no.
390
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:52.240
It wasn't My Harry potter. MARK i think it is
391
00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:56.759
from this. Morning. Wow so, yeah it's it's, fun it's
392
00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:58.799
a lot of good, exercise but it's alf still a
393
00:19:58.799 --> 00:19:59.039
lot of.
394
00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:02.920
Pain so SO i want to just preface this by
395
00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:04.960
saying to the, listener, yes we are going to be
396
00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:08.160
talking about, llms AND i think it's time to start
397
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:11.079
paying attention if you have been writing off all THE
398
00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:16.640
ai stuff hence you know before this obviously you heard
399
00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:23.000
About rendel's talk and. Harness, yeah people really liked. It so,
400
00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:24.279
yeah it's time to start paying.
401
00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:26.960
Attention. Kids so what are we talking? About this is
402
00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:31.400
not so much about building software using. Lllms that as
403
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:36.920
is what's the role of THE llm in? Software and we.
404
00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:38.799
Build a lot of software projects for, others SO i
405
00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:40.200
get to see a lot of, This SO i THINK
406
00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.400
i Have that's kind of Where i've bumped into. This
407
00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:45.400
but you, know and, DEVELOPERS i think are kind of
408
00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:47.680
maybe a little tired of this because we hear it. Constantly,
409
00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:50.839
yeah BUT i think the software we build for others
410
00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:55.039
needs to start to. Change AND i think it was
411
00:20:55.400 --> 00:21:00.000
twenty twenty Three Microsoft Build Stevie batish had this wonderful
412
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:04.440
talk where he kind of goes through the three models
413
00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:08.279
that it's going to infect change all our. Software AND
414
00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:10.680
i think all of us are seeing today like where
415
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:12.720
the developers were often to the tip of the spear
416
00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:15.480
kind of seeing stuff before it. Happens we've all seen
417
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:20.319
that beside model jump INTO vs code or visual studio or,
418
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:23.160
right we have this agent window where we have a
419
00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:26.519
conversation with it and it does things for. Us not
420
00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:31.799
only is that going to affect software development, tools but you,
421
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:35.039
know like that golf APP i use or THE crm we're,
422
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:37.400
building all of those are going to have to change
423
00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:38.119
in the next few.
424
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:40.240
Years and he's, funny you were talking about how we're
425
00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:42.799
ahead When batis came out in twenty twenty three and
426
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:46.319
said B side inside, Outside i'm, like that guy's several
427
00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:49.279
steps ahead of all of. Us, YES i, agree but
428
00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:52.599
so b side is Like. Copilot it's the original way
429
00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:55.680
we were using, it where we're taking suggestions from, it you,
430
00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:58.799
know pulling code out of it that kind of, yeah.
431
00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.640
And, hee that was on the model we all were
432
00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:04.599
we've been using as, developers but our software maybe we're
433
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:07.799
injecting that a little. Bit but there's also kind of
434
00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:11.359
this inside, model letting it actually truly drive things within.
435
00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:16.200
Software you, know instead of building something to parse, data
436
00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:19.000
we're letting THE, lm you, know parse some data for.
437
00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:21.799
Us or the age ending mode approach to software development
438
00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:25.240
where we're writing the. Specs it seems more like, that, yeah,
439
00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:26.000
Yeah and then.
440
00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.359
There's also this one that IS i think a little.
441
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:34.240
COMING i think everybody really wants this outside, model and
442
00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:36.079
this is the one WHERE i think he you, know
443
00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:39.960
kind of called something that everybody. Wants APPLE i think
444
00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:41.640
really wants us to be there BECAUSE i think it
445
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:46.039
would allow them to finally get some use for Their APPLE.
446
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:49.839
Ai but this outside, model where THE ai agent is
447
00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:52.599
no longer really part of the, software it's interacting with
448
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:56.759
our software in some other. Way we're not completely not,
449
00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:00.039
there BUT i think that's really still kind of a
450
00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:01.960
little bit. Aspirational, yeah for all of.
451
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:04.119
Us but you're sort of pushing on this idea of
452
00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:07.480
why do we pick software at? ALL i think before
453
00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:11.920
you pick software shouldn't you just describe your intent and
454
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:15.599
the tools then try to exercise that intent on your.
455
00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:17.960
BEHALF i, MEAN i haven't thinking about it so much
456
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.119
in the developer's. Perspective it's Like i'm trying to figure.
457
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:22.640
IN i think it's working for dev AND i think
458
00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:24.880
part of that is because of the way we think
459
00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:26.720
and the way we, work where we do work to
460
00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:29.720
specifications and the compiler does have a, say and we
461
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:31.759
like a test policy even if we don't follow it,
462
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:33.240
well but we follow it better when we meet the.
463
00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:36.119
Tools do It like we have a set of rules
464
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:40.039
in software development that are able to commensate for the
465
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:42.480
weaknesses of, alms but outside in the rest of the
466
00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:44.319
world not so. MUCH i can give you a real
467
00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:47.880
world example of. THAT i was talking about the mobile
468
00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:50.319
app THAT i wrote in the. Weekend, well it was
469
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:53.680
for managing my ten piece, band, right and trying to
470
00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:56.480
figure out who can, play what gigs, when and what,
471
00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:59.000
substitutes and who's on the gig and who's getting paid
472
00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:04.000
and all that. Stuff it was like herding. Cats AND
473
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:06.640
i you, know some people didn't respond to, email but
474
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:11.119
they respond to. Text other people you, know responded right.
475
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:13.319
Away some you had to prod and prod and. Prod
476
00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:14.920
so WHAT.
477
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:17.839
I ended up doing, WAS i don't, know every month or,
478
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:21.000
SO i asked every band member by email to send
479
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.440
me all the dates in this, range all.
480
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:25.079
The, saturdays because that's usually.
481
00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:27.720
When the only time we play that they can't, play
482
00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:31.559
AND i put those in a spreadsheet AND i ended
483
00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:34.640
up uploading them to CHAT gpt and, say, hey can
484
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:35.839
you keep track of this for?
485
00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:36.960
Me you?
486
00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:39.799
Know and THEN i would just ask CHAT, gpt hey
487
00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:42.920
can we? Play is everybody free on this? Date and
488
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:45.160
it would tell me yes or who or? What BUT
489
00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:47.519
i didn't want to just use CHAT gpt for this.
490
00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:52.680
PROCESS i wanted the band members themselves to be more
491
00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:56.640
involved in their own you, know, so because what ends
492
00:24:56.680 --> 00:24:59.759
up happening is everybody texts, me you, know the day
493
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:02.359
of the, gig what time do we, start where is?
494
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:07.119
It you, know all these dumb questions that could easily
495
00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:09.000
be answered by an. App so that's WHAT i, did
496
00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:13.000
and it's sure, enough it's the same. Process everybody marks
497
00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:17.160
off the dates they can't, play and THEN i put
498
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:18.920
in a, Date hey can we play? It that's the
499
00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:20.000
name of That can we play?
500
00:25:20.039 --> 00:25:20.160
It?
501
00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:23.119
Right and it says, yes or, no and THEN i
502
00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:25.759
can send a confirm to everybody and right within the
503
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:28.599
app they can confirm it and we were. Booked so
504
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:33.319
but THE llm was doing the work BEFORE i built this, app.
505
00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:35.400
And that kind of model building you, know that, app
506
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:38.319
that kind of building that spec and letting it drive
507
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:40.960
that initial build so, powerful AND i think we've got
508
00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:43.799
to see some of the. Benefits but are you, know
509
00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:46.839
like the EXAMPLE i often use is booking, golf that
510
00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:50.200
golf software THAT i, use you, know isn't there at? All,
511
00:25:50.359 --> 00:25:52.599
right it is very very rough at this point in.
512
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:57.119
Time it's some pretty rough and twenty you, know we
513
00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:02.000
mentioned twenty, sixteen some twenty sixteen mobile app that's probably
514
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.160
been around since that amount of. Time it looks like,
515
00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:08.680
anyways apparently it did not make the list as a
516
00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:14.519
positive or a. Negative it's. Forgettable but ideally to, me you,
517
00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:17.119
know you Meant, richards you mentioned the. Intent you, KNOW
518
00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:19.920
i just want to provide WHAT i would want to,
519
00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:22.559
do AND i want the tools to solve this for
520
00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:26.039
me and the true outside model of, this And i'm
521
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:30.400
Sure apple Or google With android would love. THIS i just, say,
522
00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:34.359
HEY i would you, know like to book a golf
523
00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:36.519
for tomorrow, Morning i'm off of. Work i'd like to
524
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:38.920
do this and have it resolve that problem for, me
525
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:42.279
or find it for, me or maybe even be a
526
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:44.319
little smarter and, go are you sure you want to do?
527
00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:46.279
This it's supposed to be rainy. Tomorrow do you even
528
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:46.799
want to try?
529
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:47.400
This it's.
530
00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:51.319
Terrible but right, now all of that IS i have
531
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:54.440
to go into something and do. It i'm full operate
532
00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:58.119
on a lot of this other, software AND i think software,
533
00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:01.160
development we've kind of moved to a world of Supervis
534
00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:03.680
we provide a lot of the inputs and we kind
535
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:08.680
of nudge it along the path we, want whereas many
536
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:11.680
other pieces of software are still fully in this operate.
537
00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:15.160
Mode i'm the person in. Charge i'm doing it. RIGHT
538
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:18.119
i think it'll be fun as we move away from,
539
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:19.839
that especially for other pieces of.
540
00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:22.839
Software you, KNOW i think the instinct for your average
541
00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:25.920
infro workers, like, hey THE tps report is do this.
542
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:29.599
WEEK i should work on it. Now and so you
543
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:32.839
open up the LAST tps, report probably in a, spreadsheet
544
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:35.880
and tinker away and try and figure it out where
545
00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:38.119
if you were describing, intent it's like it's time to
546
00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:39.599
work A tbs. Rod and let's face it with an,
547
00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:41.279
agent it should probably know it was time to work
548
00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:43.319
on it. Too the fact that it wouldn't start With
549
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:47.640
excel because it's not bound to an. Application it would first, realize,
550
00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:50.160
hey you, know THE vp said this thing about the
551
00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:53.680
changes in THE tps report over in this, memo and
552
00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:57.039
gladys down the hall did an update to the file
553
00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:01.519
last week that maybe affects that, outcome like that graph
554
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:04.680
data and other sourcing information before you finally actually come
555
00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:07.759
together and say this is probably what it should look like,
556
00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:09.359
now like the tool could do a favor of the
557
00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:13.079
work and you, are as you, described. Supervising but to,
558
00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:15.720
me the power of What patisse Said aroute outside is
559
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:19.440
before that, App like the app's not the driver, here
560
00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:20.119
and some of.
561
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:24.160
That could be really, fun early. Enjoyable we've all created
562
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:28.200
that document from old sources because we do the exact same.
563
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:32.000
Thing we start with the old word document and then someone, goes,
564
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:33.640
well why didn't use the new one or why didn't
565
00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:36.079
you do? This and to be, honest you probably missed
566
00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:39.119
That microsoft team's message where someone says that or you
567
00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:42.160
read it and then quickly moved on with your. Life
568
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:44.920
it'd be great if these things are picking those things
569
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:47.039
up for. US i think there's a huge win for
570
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:49.839
us as we go to this. MODEL i think there's
571
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:53.759
gonna be a lot of gains and pre Four like
572
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:58.079
up until twenty twenty, SIX i really felt LIKE ai
573
00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:01.880
was a CONVERSATION i had with, developers you, know like
574
00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:05.279
the developer world THAT i was, in everybody was talking about,
575
00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:07.839
it but IF i talk to anybody outside of, development
576
00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:10.359
they were really not seeing any benefits to. It it
577
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:12.759
was kind of, like, WELL i do this stuff on, CHAT,
578
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:16.440
gpt OR i ask it for a, recipe OR i
579
00:29:16.519 --> 00:29:18.759
maybe ask it to plan my, vacation BECAUSE i think
580
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:21.839
they advertised early this, year and, hey you haven't plan your,
581
00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:24.279
Vacation SO i think they maybe were doing, that but
582
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:26.799
it really wasn't changing anything they're. DOING i think we
583
00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:29.880
are starting to get people seeing some of. THAT i
584
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:33.599
Think Claude cowork was an interesting starting point for many.
585
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:37.359
People that was an interesting milestone and a classic inside.
586
00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:40.880
Play ye The cowork built the thing THAT m three
587
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:44.000
sixty five should have built three years ago in no.
588
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:47.960
Time but it's like you start negotiating with the way
589
00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:49.720
you want a spreadsheet to look the same way you
590
00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:52.759
would with another person in a lot of. Respects, yeah it's, like,
591
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:56.359
no make that bigger and can you alternate the colors
592
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:58.359
on that and make sure that total is correct and
593
00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:00.000
like that kind of, thing and the tool is pretty. Good.
594
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:04.519
Yep the funny thing is it actually solved that problem
595
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:07.759
THAT i kind of what would have Expected microsoft to
596
00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:10.400
have solved the previous year With. Copilot, yeah you, know
597
00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:12.759
because so often you're in An excel spreadsheet you want
598
00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:15.759
to do, something And Microsoft's, copilot which they were kind
599
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:17.920
of doing that beside, MODEL i think kind of you,
600
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:19.839
know off to the, side you'd ask it to generate
601
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:22.200
or change something in the. Spreadsheet AND i don't know
602
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:24.079
if this is completely, true but for me at least
603
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:25.480
a lot of, times seems like it wanted to give
604
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:27.880
me a whole new. Spreadsheet, yeah, like, hey how about
605
00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:29.480
you try to LIKE i don't want you to do that,
606
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:30.640
ONE i want you to change this.
607
00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:34.880
One. Yeah so, yeah, YEAH i think you've made a
608
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:37.799
real insight that the two things. ARE i poked at
609
00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:39.319
THE m Three city five, guys and the whole core
610
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:41.039
work came. Down it's, like how could you have gotten
611
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:43.680
this that? Wrong in sum, WAYS i think THE m
612
00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:47.599
Three cy five guys Had conway's loss problem because they
613
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:50.640
were inside the. Project there was just so many people
614
00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:54.160
involved and they were trying to do everything and, they you,
615
00:30:54.200 --> 00:30:56.640
know And throbik had the advantage of not being inside
616
00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:58.839
the product and just sort of looking at what's the
617
00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:03.359
top ten use let's make sure that, works and all
618
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:04.279
of a, sudden it's super.
619
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:07.039
USEFUL i don't know if you two experienced, that but
620
00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:10.680
kind of this, Year i'm now actually getting feedback or
621
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:13.799
thoughts from non developers and how we can use some
622
00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:16.519
of these. Tools they're starting to kind of envision what
623
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:18.480
they can. DO i think it's really changed in the
624
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:19.960
last six to eight.
625
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:24.440
Months, well we were saying before recording THAT i was
626
00:31:24.440 --> 00:31:27.200
talking To rockylatka encoded With ai he's my new co,
627
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:32.799
host that he doesn't feel like a developer, anymore and
628
00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:35.519
he used the word, producer and something clicked in my
629
00:31:35.559 --> 00:31:38.880
head Because i'm a music, producer and that is exactly
630
00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:42.880
the role that you're taking. ON a music producer's job
631
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:45.359
is to come up with the final. Product but the
632
00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:48.359
producer doesn't put his hands on the mixing. Board he
633
00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:52.200
just knows sounds and how things go together and what sounds.
634
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:55.519
Good and instructs the engineers to do this and, that
635
00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:58.839
and comes up with and is the one that calls
636
00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:01.599
lunch when every but he gets hungry and starts snipping
637
00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:05.559
at each. Other like the producer's job is to produce the, product,
638
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:08.559
right it's not a detail. Thing that's exactly what we.
639
00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:11.000
Are we'll see maybe in the next year or two
640
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:14.480
we can start seeing software producers as a new job.
641
00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:17.400
Title i'm curious that's actually what will change with job
642
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:20.279
titles going. Forward maybe it'll be producer.
643
00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:22.599
Because certainly the idea of back end and front end
644
00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:26.279
and so, forth like that discrimination in teams makes a
645
00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:29.319
lot less sense with these. Tools, yeah but there's definitely
646
00:32:29.319 --> 00:32:31.319
different skill. Sets Like i've been talking to lots of
647
00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:33.960
folks who have been focused on using these tools to
648
00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:38.079
remediate brown field, apps and that seems like a specialty
649
00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:40.960
as opposed to writing something original or you, know moving
650
00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:44.720
forward on existing project changing those. Workflows, yeah it definitely
651
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:47.839
seems to be categories of. Skills they're just different from
652
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:49.519
what they were. Before these tools are und.
653
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:51.640
I mentioned like software developers being some of the early.
654
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:56.559
PEOPLE i think some of these legacy. Systems that's going
655
00:32:56.599 --> 00:33:00.480
to be some interesting role to kind of bring these tools,
656
00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:03.359
in you. KNOW i mean it's really. Easy there's a
657
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:05.559
ton of great. Examples if you prompt, something you can
658
00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:08.480
spin something up really. Quickly in a new, world a
659
00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:10.880
lot of these legacy systems come with a lot more.
660
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:13.599
CHALLENGES i think are more challenging in some, ways or
661
00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:18.200
at least have different requirements and different thoughts to bringing
662
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:18.759
these things in.
663
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:21.319
There And, chad if you could hold that fought for one,
664
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:22.960
minute we're going to take a quick. Break we'll be
665
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:29.359
right back after these very important, messages and we're back
666
00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:32.319
at stton Net. Rocks I'm Carl, franklin my, Buddy Richard, Campbell,
667
00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:36.440
hey And Chad michael's here and we're talking. Elms and
668
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:38.799
you were talking about legacy systems AND i interrupted you
669
00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:40.160
please continue your thoughts.
670
00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:42.240
There oh, NO i JUST i feel like that is
671
00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:44.720
going to be a specialized. World you, know you mentioned
672
00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:48.759
the front end back. End probably the distinction isn't as. Important.
673
00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:53.720
YEAH i do think new versus something that's, there and
674
00:33:54.079 --> 00:33:58.039
with the legacy, world it's going to be, HARDER i
675
00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:01.680
think to introduce these, tools AND i think it's going
676
00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:03.799
to be important in that. World you start with something
677
00:34:03.880 --> 00:34:06.599
small get some early, wins BECAUSE i think there's going
678
00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:08.920
to be a lot of skepticism sure m hmm on
679
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:12.079
the part of everybody within the organization and getting some early.
680
00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:15.679
Wins but the Old Michael feathers book on, legacy you,
681
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:19.039
know managing legacy software super applies here in some. WAYS
682
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:21.440
i think that the lms are better with the old
683
00:34:21.559 --> 00:34:24.159
languages just because they're not changing all the, time and
684
00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:26.760
so their data sets are actually. Better you may not
685
00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:29.039
be able to find a developer in that platform, anymore
686
00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:32.440
but the tool's got no problem transforming that language that
687
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:33.360
doesn't fairly.
688
00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:37.079
RELIABLY i would suggest that it's not just legacy systems
689
00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:40.440
which are old, code old languages and, stuff but current
690
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:43.039
systems that have technical debt that needs to be cleaned
691
00:34:43.079 --> 00:34:46.280
up and refactor of that nobody wants to. Do because
692
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:48.960
it touches millions of places in the, code it's a
693
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:50.840
perfect job for AN.
694
00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:53.559
Lm, also on that, note you can actually this is
695
00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:56.719
another big. Win this isn't necessarily talking about kind of
696
00:34:56.760 --> 00:34:58.679
the change and user, experience but you can generate those
697
00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:01.519
automated tests so you can know what it's doing right.
698
00:35:01.559 --> 00:35:05.079
Now so after you, refactory you can have some confidences
699
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:06.400
there get your hundred.
700
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:09.119
Percent well that's the you, know that's The feathers. Book it's,
701
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:12.239
like first you write the. Tests, yeah you, know and
702
00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:14.480
know if you make a change what you're. Breaking but
703
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:16.440
now you've got a tool that will actually give you
704
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:18.519
a hundred percent test. COVERAGE i don't know how good
705
00:35:18.599 --> 00:35:20.559
that hundred percent test coverage, is but it'll do.
706
00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:23.119
It now the test may assert, anything maybe just be
707
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:24.039
a test that gets.
708
00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:25.159
Kind of got to check them.
709
00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:28.880
Out, yeah you have to pay attention because you are the.
710
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:32.400
Producer that's, Great but are we basically stuck in an
711
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:35.480
inside mode for? Development LIKE i don't know what the
712
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:39.440
outside mode of development look. Like going back to The batisha, reference.
713
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:42.360
You know that that's an interesting. ONE i suppose if
714
00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:46.079
we had like code running somewhere, else we could be
715
00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:48.199
using our agents on our machine to kind of, Write,
716
00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:50.280
yeah going and, changing AND i think we could be
717
00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:53.320
a little more. Outside anythink we're often kind of that inside.
718
00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:55.639
THOUGH i do kind of where we're at. Now we're
719
00:35:55.639 --> 00:36:00.639
defining some of these specs and. INTERACTING i think if
720
00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:05.119
you look at like a co pilot within, GitHub you
721
00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:09.519
know you can submit changes to it almost completely from
722
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:12.199
the outside and let it go work on things a
723
00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:14.719
little more towards that, model AND i don want to
724
00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:17.880
maybe come back to that model one more time beside inside.
725
00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:21.639
OUTSIDE i don't you mentioned he was way ahead of
726
00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:25.440
his kind of time. There it's funny how often people
727
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:29.280
are trying to INTEGRATE ai into their software into. Something
728
00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:33.360
if you ask them that, question that immediately kind of
729
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:35.880
allows them to kind of narrow in, on, well how
730
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:39.000
AM i going to use? THIS i was, actually, ironically
731
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:42.199
you could be shocked how often this comes up at
732
00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:46.000
church one day out in the, hall you, know between you,
733
00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:47.960
know probably going to the bathroom or something and talk
734
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:50.079
to somebody, There AND i was actually going through that
735
00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:53.119
with someone kind of which model do you want to?
736
00:36:53.239 --> 00:36:54.800
Use my wife was probably, like where are?
737
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:56.639
You what are you? Doing BUT i was.
738
00:36:56.599 --> 00:36:59.480
Talking through, that you, know instead Of Holy. Trinity i'm
739
00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:00.599
talking side inside.
740
00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:04.159
Outside so my husband is on the, Holiday.
741
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:11.440
Yes so valuable to kind of presenting where we're. AT
742
00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:14.000
i think it's really easy for us too to be
743
00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:16.400
one hundred percent focused and maybe even when we're talking
744
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:19.639
about the legacy always being trying to throw something, beside,
745
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:22.639
yeah you, know slapping something. BESIDE i think that can
746
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:24.480
be a big mess for. Us we have to be
747
00:37:24.519 --> 00:37:27.039
really thinking what is the best way to integrate. This
748
00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:28.480
we could just add it.
749
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:30.920
Now you make me feel like we're in the inside. Era,
750
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:33.519
yeah BECAUSE i don't think we know what outside looks like.
751
00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:36.760
Yet so you, KNOW i and that whole concept of
752
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:39.480
before the, APPLICATION i wanted to express my. INTENT i
753
00:37:39.559 --> 00:37:42.039
love that. IDEA i just don't know what it looks.
754
00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:47.039
Like i'm not clever, Enough but INSIDE i know what to. Do,
755
00:37:47.719 --> 00:37:50.119
Right i've already made a. Decision i'm going to work
756
00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:52.360
in this tool to achieve this Goal aout'm going to
757
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:54.360
describe it to the tool and get the tool help.
758
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:58.760
Me, well, okay would you ever be satisfied being, Outside?
759
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:02.239
Richard because for, ME i need to check work If
760
00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:04.360
i'm responsible for, IT i want to know what it,
761
00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:06.760
does AND i want to inspect it and make sure
762
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:07.840
that it's correct.
763
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:10.400
Well and without a. Doubt like that's still the. CASE
764
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:13.360
i don't think that's the context here so much as
765
00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:17.239
the before you select a, tool describe your intent and
766
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:19.960
the tool and that thing that you describe your intent
767
00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:23.840
to now pulls from different sources for what the tools should.
768
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:26.199
Be if you're thinking from a development, perspective BUT i
769
00:38:26.199 --> 00:38:27.880
didn't intend. To but that's kind of where we're. Headed
770
00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:32.239
if you describe the programming problem or the application problem
771
00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:36.199
outside the context of any, language any, platform you, know
772
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:40.519
what would that tool tool select, like would it be?
773
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:43.599
Optimal like we'd be making better choices if we weren't
774
00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:47.000
already sitting In Visual Studio, code, right you, Know like
775
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:50.000
we didn't make that. Choice we stayed out of.
776
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:52.800
It it's interesting you mentioned staying out of VI's the
777
00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:56.400
studio code is kind of along this. TWO i THINK
778
00:38:56.519 --> 00:38:58.920
vs code now has their agent. View they kind of
779
00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:05.079
push you softly To google's anti gravity a few months,
780
00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:08.000
back switched to where the agent view was the default
781
00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:11.920
view within there as, well where you're only going to
782
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:14.000
show you snippets of the, code you, know as it
783
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:17.400
kind of streams. VIBE i personally couldn't get into either
784
00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:20.599
of those, two by the, way you, Know i've stayed
785
00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:23.360
with more of THE id. View but then, AGAIN i
786
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:25.519
have a long history of looking at, code so maybe
787
00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:28.960
there's something actually comforting to me to looking at that
788
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:30.039
as it's.
789
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:32.320
Your reflex and that's a very reasonable one because it's
790
00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:33.360
served you for a long.
791
00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:37.800
Time but as we move new people into this, Field
792
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:40.760
i'm very curious if they're just by, default let's, say
793
00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:44.880
jumping into anti, gravity it's default out of box. Experiences
794
00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:47.800
you're just talking to an. Agent i'm within. THERE i
795
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:49.320
think that's that you.
796
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:50.400
Don't normally look at an.
797
00:39:50.559 --> 00:39:53.760
Editor, yeah that would be weird for, Me but then,
798
00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:55.519
Again i've been doing this for a while.
799
00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:56.920
Now And i've talked to a few folks that are
800
00:39:56.920 --> 00:40:00.840
in that. Place, like if you're really a, producer are,
801
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:03.559
you you, know looking at the individual? Notes are you
802
00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:06.719
listening to the? Song you got to do, both you, Know,
803
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:07.800
yeah maybe that's the.
804
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:09.039
Case you have to zoom in and zoom.
805
00:40:09.039 --> 00:40:11.440
OUT i think that's very, fair and that means you
806
00:40:11.480 --> 00:40:13.760
don't maybe you don't start in the, editor but occasionally
807
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:15.239
you're gonna have to poke into. It, hey Even.
808
00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:18.159
Jordi La forage has to replace conduits every once in a,
809
00:40:18.199 --> 00:40:21.119
while you know WHAT i. Mean sorry to harp on
810
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:24.079
the Side Trek Next, generation which is fifty years old,
811
00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:29.400
now But i've been getting into watching them. Again you're
812
00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:32.280
going back to, That, yeah, awesome BECAUSE i don't. Remember,
813
00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:36.079
wow it's the older you, get the more fascinating this stuff.
814
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:40.480
Is because you just forgot. Everything, yeah those first couple
815
00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:44.360
of seasons were not, great not. Better our memories are from.
816
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:47.400
LATER i Think i'm in season five, now it's all. Good, okay,
817
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:52.480
okay that's. AWESOME i love. It but even stepping Like
818
00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:56.760
i'm almost comfortable saying all, right fine inside for death
819
00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:00.559
THAT i keep thinking about outside for the, worker and
820
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:04.199
it's specifically around. That stop immediately going to excel or to,
821
00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:07.840
word rather check what other work has already been done out,
822
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:11.280
there what other, people you, know explore the, graph what's
823
00:41:11.320 --> 00:41:15.920
the other? Modifiers like, that that kind of. Mindset it's
824
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:18.880
to me that seems really interesting because it means the
825
00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:23.039
operating system is the hub for, it rather than any given.
826
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:28.599
Application THAT i happen to have been With Paul tharat
827
00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:31.199
when we were Watching The Batish thing in twenty twenty.
828
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:33.920
Three so of Course i'm thinking Of windows sitting inside pul.
829
00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:37.800
THROAT i have no. Choice, yeah and am my reaction
830
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:42.199
to that Moment let's have another Risky? Yeah WELL i
831
00:41:42.280 --> 00:41:45.760
was doing that. Too was like Maybe windows was relevant,
832
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:51.159
again like whoever presents that outside interface the best way
833
00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:56.119
and then becomes the orchestrator to pull in whatever tools
834
00:41:56.199 --> 00:41:59.360
make sense to achieve this goal for the operator or
835
00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:02.039
for the. Producer, sir that's a really profound.
836
00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:05.559
Concept, Well, kelly my wife has been using co pilot
837
00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:09.480
For windows that's built Into windows, eleven and that Made
838
00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:11.519
windows eleven more valuable to.
839
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:14.360
Her that's really, interesting isn't? It isn't? It and she's more,
840
00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:16.840
technical she cares to, Admit, oh she, is as are
841
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:20.440
all of our. Spouses she, is but not driven by
842
00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:23.280
it and just trying to find a way to be productive.
843
00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:26.280
And so but talk about. Anthropomorphizing oh my. God she
844
00:42:26.360 --> 00:42:30.639
tells me of the conversations she has with she calls Him. Jebediah,
845
00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:34.960
yeah she named him. Him listen to, me and she tells.
846
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:39.000
Cars she tells me about all the funny things that they,
847
00:42:39.159 --> 00:42:41.480
have the quips that go back and. Forth And i'm, like,
848
00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:43.159
honey what's going?
849
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:48.480
Software it sofer it's she likes it, though that's not
850
00:42:48.519 --> 00:42:50.519
a bad. Thing and the bottom and still we get
851
00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:52.039
back to the core, thing which is are you more?
852
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:54.440
Productive and she certainly is this a quicker way to
853
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:55.280
get better? Results?
854
00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:59.760
Oh, Yeah actually your kind of example, THERE i Think windows,
855
00:42:59.800 --> 00:43:02.360
BEAK i, mean maybe more valuable or in some WAYS
856
00:43:02.360 --> 00:43:05.119
i Know apple constantly wants our phones to be more.
857
00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:08.280
Valuable if we could actually have, conversations have, it know that,
858
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:10.559
intent know what we want to, do there's a huge win.
859
00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:13.239
There no one's really pulled it. OFF i think you
860
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:15.480
know The apple's tried really really hard to get us
861
00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:15.840
to Use.
862
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:19.039
Siria, WELL i think you're right to Reference apple because
863
00:43:19.039 --> 00:43:22.719
they are the ultimate end user company and really a hardware,
864
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:25.400
company and they farm outmost the. Software they're. LEADING i
865
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:27.920
think it's all leading On google now for a lot
866
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:30.239
of this, stuff but they will BE i would have
867
00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:32.519
to pay attention to them because they're super good at
868
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:36.239
building that interface the way that regular people are going
869
00:43:36.280 --> 00:43:39.280
to engage. With so if anybody's going to do, IT
870
00:43:39.320 --> 00:43:39.800
i think it'll be.
871
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:41.639
Them, YEAH i don't know if it's been like. THERE
872
00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:44.199
i think it's for good, intention trying to be very
873
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:46.800
privacy focused and if that's been where there things because
874
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:49.039
they've been trying to run more models, locally which maybe
875
00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:51.719
has been part of their, problem but they just haven't
876
00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:53.079
been able to pull it. Off but it would be.
877
00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:57.000
Great, well they did a smoke In mirrors, demo which
878
00:43:57.039 --> 00:43:59.199
is super weird For. Apple that was a couple of
879
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:02.599
years ago where they showed off The Apple, intelligence so
880
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:05.880
it's STILL, ai but It's Apple intelligence and it was not,
881
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:09.039
real like it never. Appeared and it's been two years,
882
00:44:09.079 --> 00:44:10.559
now AND i, think, again.
883
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:14.079
YEAH i haven't noticed Any Apple intelligence on my. iPhone it's,
884
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:17.840
like when's the last Time apple funned? Us LIKE i
885
00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:20.760
was weirded out by. That they're usually the ones they
886
00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:23.760
don't talk about something until it's actually already done and
887
00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:25.519
then they're ready to deploy. It and this TIME i
888
00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:28.239
think they actually panicked. That oh my, goodness we can't.
889
00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:30.559
Wait they only do one show a. Year we got
890
00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:31.679
to show everybody's talking ABOUT.
891
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:33.599
AI. I we got to show something and they smoke
892
00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:35.880
and mirrored. Us but by the, way if you go
893
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:38.199
back and look at that, demo it's really a Belling
894
00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:41.559
LIKE i wouldn't mind having, that And i'm not an iPhone,
895
00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:45.519
guy but that was pretty. Cool Darn shami doesn't exist science? Fiction, yeah,
896
00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:46.599
Yeah and they've.
897
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:49.280
Continued we still don't have, it AND i almost guarantee
898
00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:54.440
it the last what is IT wwc or there's summer?
899
00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:54.599
One?
900
00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:59.480
Ever the w again presented something amazing there and.
901
00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:01.760
But they were more careful now like it's been a
902
00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:04.480
couple of. YEARS i just appreciate the struggles are going.
903
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:07.719
Through WHAT i find interesting is all of all of
904
00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:12.800
the early, tools the series and The amazon product that
905
00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:14.840
we don't say out loud because it makes people magnif
906
00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:18.559
that activates That google, product like all of them were
907
00:45:18.559 --> 00:45:23.079
imploding before THE lllmri and all of them have struggled
908
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:25.599
terribly to try and implement, llms like it's just not that.
909
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:29.960
Easy, well The Echo plus is out now and that
910
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:32.960
has more ACTUALLY i don't know if it, is but
911
00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:37.000
they say that it is more intelligent and it HAS
912
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:40.039
llms behind it and all that. Stuff, YEAH i got
913
00:45:40.039 --> 00:45:41.559
a hand it to them, THOUGH i mean they kind
914
00:45:41.559 --> 00:45:44.440
of started, it you, know they started. This, yep they
915
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:47.760
didn't talk to your, device and it goes and does
916
00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:50.239
some research and talks back to, you however.
917
00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:53.920
Limited but they know that that tool was originally designed
918
00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:56.360
to make you buy more stuff From, amazon and that's
919
00:45:56.360 --> 00:46:00.360
the one thing it never. Did that's, right people for
920
00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:02.000
recipes and Stupid crest.
921
00:46:02.119 --> 00:46:06.119
Exactly or if they had it enabled and you're in
922
00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:08.599
a meeting and they weren't at their, desk you were
923
00:46:08.599 --> 00:46:11.159
trying to talk to see if you get to buy
924
00:46:11.199 --> 00:46:13.800
something that was the, classic, Right, yeah see if you
925
00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:16.920
can get them to order a trampoline or, something.
926
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:22.079
Send it To Lifetime supply of laundry. Soap, yes but
927
00:46:22.360 --> 00:46:25.239
maybe we've boxed ourselves into a corner on this show, then,
928
00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:28.719
friends because If apple can't solve this, problem why do
929
00:46:28.840 --> 00:46:31.320
we think we? Can should?
930
00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:31.440
We?
931
00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:34.360
Really if there's another side to, this WHICH i think
932
00:46:34.360 --> 00:46:36.760
you've walked around very, gently, chat which IS i bet
933
00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:39.280
you have customers to come at you who've been told
934
00:46:39.400 --> 00:46:41.400
need to HAVE ai in our, app and for no
935
00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:43.760
good reason other than they read it's on the. News
936
00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:46.480
my boss wants. IT i have no. Plan it's, like,
937
00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:47.920
okay well Look i'm gonna Get i'm going to get
938
00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:49.280
a score bottle full of. Water i'm gonna put a
939
00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:51.719
label that says aim going to escort it on. Everybody
940
00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:54.679
well have A i used to do agile that way,
941
00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:56.199
Too get in a scorp. BOTTLE i.
942
00:46:56.320 --> 00:46:59.079
Noticed i've, been you, Know i've. BEEN i have like
943
00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:03.280
streaming shows on up And i'm pointing up to my
944
00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:05.440
left BECAUSE i have a screen up, there AND i
945
00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:08.800
have streaming shows like old shows that are on constantly
946
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:10.320
and just muted.
947
00:47:10.280 --> 00:47:12.199
Or very low While i'm writing code and doing.
948
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:16.719
Stuff And i've noticed that there's a spate of ads
949
00:47:16.760 --> 00:47:22.039
for new companies that look like it's one guy and
950
00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:26.719
some artificial intelligence behind this, company BECAUSE i could do
951
00:47:26.840 --> 00:47:30.079
any of this. Stuff and there are things like managing your. Money,
952
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:33.239
oh the more access you give us to all of your,
953
00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:36.119
accounts the more we can put them together and make
954
00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:40.800
them work better for. You oh, really so that's a financial. Service,
955
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:49.079
Hmmm probably one guy and SOME ai created and run, software, right,
956
00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:50.360
well other things like.
957
00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:50.880
That i've.
958
00:47:50.960 --> 00:47:54.000
Noticed does it? WORK i don't, Know But i've noticed
959
00:47:54.039 --> 00:47:57.000
that there's a spate of ads for new companies that
960
00:47:57.119 --> 00:48:01.039
seem like there just could be one person in some and.
961
00:48:00.920 --> 00:48:03.760
What is their data security around any of?
962
00:48:03.760 --> 00:48:05.079
That he's pretty.
963
00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:08.119
Terrifying it is, terrifying and you, Know i'm not about
964
00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:08.960
to try and find.
965
00:48:08.960 --> 00:48:09.199
Out.
966
00:48:09.880 --> 00:48:10.639
YEAH i.
967
00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:14.880
Have noticed this, trend, however that there's probably a lot
968
00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:20.440
of so called entrepreneurs who have created something and are you,
969
00:48:20.440 --> 00:48:24.199
know spending millions of dollars advertising it On amazon and
970
00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:26.559
to b And pulu and all these other.
971
00:48:26.599 --> 00:48:29.719
Places, ACTUALLY i think you're bumped into another big concept
972
00:48:29.719 --> 00:48:32.639
around all of, this and we're we're experiencing it every
973
00:48:32.679 --> 00:48:35.960
day as this kind of permissions and permission, tuning you,
974
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:38.519
know because right NOW i think we're in this somewhat
975
00:48:38.599 --> 00:48:42.880
dangerous world where everybody's letting their, claude like from the developer,
976
00:48:42.920 --> 00:48:45.719
perspective just do pretty much whatever it. Wants you, know
977
00:48:45.719 --> 00:48:47.719
if we're building these, apps we can't let them do
978
00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:50.400
everything on behalf of the. User and again maybe even
979
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:53.159
back To windows kind of has a permission model in,
980
00:48:53.239 --> 00:48:55.360
Place but what are the permission models we're going to
981
00:48:55.480 --> 00:48:59.960
need and tuning per things we have the right prompt
982
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:02.639
to the user because we want to, present you, know
983
00:49:02.760 --> 00:49:06.320
questions to the, user like back to the, golfing do
984
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:09.039
we want to book this golf just because it? CAN
985
00:49:09.159 --> 00:49:12.119
i don't necessarily want. It maybe it is PERFECT i
986
00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:15.599
have tomorrow off and the weather's great and one of
987
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:18.119
my friends is. Available maybe we, Can but what are
988
00:49:18.119 --> 00:49:21.199
the right permissions with all of these? Things right? NOW
989
00:49:21.239 --> 00:49:23.320
a lot of that side set in software because the
990
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:26.880
user is often operating making all of those, decisions so
991
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:30.000
they're clicking every little. Thing as we move more towards
992
00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:33.840
some of these agentic flows where software is doing more
993
00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:37.000
for people kind of judging, intent how do we make
994
00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:40.000
sure those permissions are right in, place you, know because
995
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:43.280
it's going to be coming back to that, example ordering
996
00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:46.679
trampolines for your, Friends, yeah because they need a third
997
00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:50.719
trampoline arriving this week Because.
998
00:49:50.639 --> 00:49:51.920
Richard distier is coming to mail.
999
00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:56.400
Yet, yeah doing trampolines beside the stony beach is a good.
1000
00:49:56.400 --> 00:49:59.079
Idea AND i love the idea of trampolines And, nebraska
1001
00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:01.480
aren't you guys torny? Country or don't you need new
1002
00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:05.039
trampoline regularly because the last one blew? Away so we.
1003
00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:05.880
Can get some good wins.
1004
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:06.039
Here.
1005
00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:09.480
Yeah after that first build That richard AND i went
1006
00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:11.679
to where they were talking ABOUT ai and how to
1007
00:50:11.800 --> 00:50:13.840
use it and mcps and all. That you remember, that,
1008
00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:18.320
Right SO i was out talking To Scott, hunter and you,
1009
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:21.760
know my mind was. Blown hunter's mind was. Blown and
1010
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:27.159
my ideology back then, was and this is still, true
1011
00:50:27.239 --> 00:50:30.119
you're only limited by your imagination what you can. Do and,
1012
00:50:30.199 --> 00:50:33.559
TWO i wrongly, thought just think, big give it a,
1013
00:50:33.559 --> 00:50:37.159
great big, prompt you give it a lot of stuff to,
1014
00:50:37.239 --> 00:50:39.519
do and then just sit back and let it. Work
1015
00:50:39.559 --> 00:50:42.719
AND i do not think that way. ANYMORE i am
1016
00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:46.760
very controlled in breaking things down into steps and going
1017
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:49.320
one step at a, time only giving the permissions that
1018
00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:53.599
are required for that, step and then you, know very very.
1019
00:50:53.639 --> 00:50:57.920
Different but we were both in agreement, that, oh, yeah go,
1020
00:50:58.039 --> 00:51:01.000
big give it a, great big, prompt just think.
1021
00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:03.159
Big you. Know, YEAH i.
1022
00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:05.239
Think we've definitely seen you, know if you can be
1023
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:08.159
a little more controlled and smaller little, things we're more
1024
00:51:08.320 --> 00:51:10.519
likely to be able to supervise and get.
1025
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:11.119
What we want out of.
1026
00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:13.559
That if we go really, BIG i think we tend
1027
00:51:13.599 --> 00:51:16.760
to get, something it's just maybe not the something we actually.
1028
00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:18.159
Wanted at the other, End, well if you.
1029
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:20.320
Think about the role of a music, producer it's the same.
1030
00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:23.960
Way you don't, say all, right go create an. Album you,
1031
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:27.119
know you take one song at a. Time all, right who's,
1032
00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:29.760
singing let's hear? You, okay maybe not, you how about another,
1033
00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:32.159
singer how about another. Drummer blah blah. Blah let's try
1034
00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:34.960
this and maybe it, works and then you move.
1035
00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:36.440
On and that's where you get into this idea of,
1036
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:38.440
like we don't care too much about the code anymore
1037
00:51:38.440 --> 00:51:40.599
because you can regenerate very. Easily so you do a
1038
00:51:40.679 --> 00:51:43.679
series of. Experiments, YEAH i certainly had a great conversation
1039
00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:45.719
with a team where it's, like we don't debate A
1040
00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:47.880
b testing. Anymore you just build all the versions and
1041
00:51:47.880 --> 00:51:49.559
then you put them out and try. Them see what
1042
00:51:49.559 --> 00:51:50.519
the customer feedback looks.
1043
00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:53.159
Like you, know suddenly The moniker dot net rocks makes more,
1044
00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:54.880
Sense yes it.
1045
00:51:54.920 --> 00:52:00.800
Does maybe there'd be an interesting. Whole since you only
1046
00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:04.480
have what three or four podcasts going, now you could
1047
00:52:04.519 --> 00:52:09.960
have another one where it's you're a software producer and
1048
00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:14.320
you just talk about software. Producing it is a slightly DIFFERENT.
1049
00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:16.639
I think that's where we are With coded WITH ai right.
1050
00:52:16.679 --> 00:52:18.519
Now, okay, yeah.
1051
00:52:18.519 --> 00:52:19.480
That's your actual. Role.
1052
00:52:19.639 --> 00:52:23.000
YEAH i wonder if there's a bunch of things you've
1053
00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:25.400
learned in that world that could be you, know less
1054
00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:27.079
thans taught over this.
1055
00:52:27.159 --> 00:52:28.840
World, well that's that's what we're.
1056
00:52:28.880 --> 00:52:32.559
Doing i'm absolutely you, KNOW i don't keep the THINGS
1057
00:52:32.599 --> 00:52:33.360
i learned to one.
1058
00:52:33.400 --> 00:52:37.000
Podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah it gets, Around it gets.
1059
00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:40.960
Around. Yeah, yeah it's wilding like spread. Fire, Nice, Chad
1060
00:52:40.960 --> 00:52:42.840
do we miss anything that you wanted to talk?
1061
00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:43.119
About?
1062
00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:44.960
NO i think this was kind of. IT i, Mean
1063
00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:48.440
I'M i think this is really. Exciting our applications are
1064
00:52:48.559 --> 00:52:50.920
going to get, better, probably but there's gonna be some
1065
00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:54.800
really bad examples along the, way probably potentially like some
1066
00:52:54.840 --> 00:52:57.639
of those YouTube, ads, yeah where some people are gonna
1067
00:52:58.039 --> 00:53:00.400
look in do some. Stuff, actually the amount of fraud
1068
00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:05.079
ads that are kind of like subtle digs at trying
1069
00:53:05.079 --> 00:53:07.119
to get people to do something they should and it's
1070
00:53:07.159 --> 00:53:07.719
only going to go.
1071
00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:09.679
Up, well always been, fraud haven't.
1072
00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:12.280
They yeah that's.
1073
00:53:12.320 --> 00:53:15.400
Fair why would they need to advertise if it was just?
1074
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:18.960
Real BUT i think that's going to be something that's
1075
00:53:18.960 --> 00:53:19.639
going to continue to.
1076
00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:21.199
Play.
1077
00:53:21.239 --> 00:53:24.320
Guess but despite all of those, NEGATIVES i think we're
1078
00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:26.920
going to get some better, Software SO i, agree better
1079
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:29.719
experiences for all of. US i think it might be
1080
00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:33.519
a little further than people. Imagine, yeah you, know especially
1081
00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:35.880
in the non developer, WORLD i think developer.
1082
00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:38.800
World and to be, clear these companies are in a
1083
00:53:38.920 --> 00:53:41.119
race to not run out of, money so they're creating
1084
00:53:41.239 --> 00:53:45.119
urgency THAT i largely see as completely. False the engineering
1085
00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:48.440
rules still. Apply take your. Time the longer you wait than,
1086
00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:51.239
anyways the easier it'll be because more stuff will drop,
1087
00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:54.000
away more procedures will be. Built like, you there's no
1088
00:53:54.159 --> 00:53:57.599
real advantage to being, first but there is a competitive.
1089
00:53:57.639 --> 00:54:00.800
Thing we're seeing such good results With folks are diligent
1090
00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:02.960
about using these, Tools, like there's a whole lot of
1091
00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:06.440
code to be. Fixed arguably the only true urgent Thing
1092
00:54:06.519 --> 00:54:09.480
i've seen in this whole space is the mythos. Crisis
1093
00:54:09.599 --> 00:54:12.800
is there are now tools that will find old. Vulnerabilities
1094
00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:14.800
they're quite good at, it and you need to get
1095
00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:17.760
those vulnerabilities. Patched and you're seeing all the big companies
1096
00:54:17.800 --> 00:54:18.480
do a ton of.
1097
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:22.039
That oh, Yeah, MICROSOFT i think the last patch run
1098
00:54:22.199 --> 00:54:26.760
was like fourteen, hundred zero days or something. Crazy maybe
1099
00:54:26.800 --> 00:54:31.199
not zero, days but fourteen hundred. Vulnerabilities Google chrome, again
1100
00:54:31.320 --> 00:54:34.079
fifteen hundred, vulnerabilities like in a. Week if this thing
1101
00:54:34.159 --> 00:54:36.800
is finding crazy stuff and fixing.
1102
00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:38.719
It AND i still don't think we found the. Peak
1103
00:54:38.920 --> 00:54:41.440
like the number keeps going up month over, month, right
1104
00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:43.679
at some point it'll start going, Down like hopefully we'll
1105
00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:44.719
get to get to the bottom of.
1106
00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:47.280
This, yeah you're never maybe it's just creating brand new
1107
00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:49.199
ones for the next for the next.
1108
00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:49.480
Run.
1109
00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:53.840
Yeah and you, know, listeners you're never going to run
1110
00:54:53.840 --> 00:54:54.880
out of things to, do.
1111
00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:57.840
So you, know, yeah no one's ever getting the bottom
1112
00:54:57.880 --> 00:54:59.440
of you do. List, yeah that's, Right, yeah that's.
1113
00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:02.760
Rare you can always do some, refactoring you can fix,
1114
00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:07.840
bugs you can clean up technical debt like you're valuable
1115
00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:11.480
as a, Producer so don't ever forget that you're not
1116
00:55:11.519 --> 00:55:12.199
going to any a good.
1117
00:55:12.199 --> 00:55:13.320
Call BUT i like.
1118
00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:16.280
That, yeah with, That, chad thank you very. Much thank
1119
00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:18.920
you great talking to, you and thank you for, listening
1120
00:55:18.920 --> 00:55:21.440
and we'll talk to you next time on dot. Netblox
1121
00:55:41.880 --> 00:55:44.599
dot Net rocks is brought to you By Franklin's net
1122
00:55:44.679 --> 00:55:48.639
and produced By Pop, studios a full service, audio video
1123
00:55:48.719 --> 00:55:52.840
and post production facility located physically In New, London, connecticut
1124
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:57.039
and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot.
1125
00:55:57.039 --> 00:56:00.199
Com visit our website at D o t any t
1126
00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:03.519
R o c k s dot com FOR rss, feeds,
1127
00:56:03.760 --> 00:56:07.960
downloads mobile, apps, comments and access to the full archives
1128
00:56:08.039 --> 00:56:11.320
going back to show number, one recorded In september two
1129
00:56:11.360 --> 00:56:13.760
thousand and. Two and make sure you check out our.
1130
00:56:13.800 --> 00:56:17.000
Sponsors they keep us in. Business now go write some,
1131
00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:26.960
Code see you next. Time you Got jad Middle van