Safe Learning Spaces with Fernando Murray and Carolina Almeida - EP 42

1
Beth 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,280
Welcome to Facilitating on Purpose,

2
Beth 00:00:04,520 --> 00:00:07,860
where we explore ideas together about designing and

3
Beth 00:00:07,860 --> 00:00:08,880
facilitating learning.

4
Beth 00:00:09,900 --> 00:00:13,320
Join me to get inspired on your journey to becoming and

5
Beth 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,460
being a great facilitator, wherever you work.

6
Beth 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:18,740
I'm your host, Beth Cougler Blom.

7
Beth 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,780
Hello, thank you so much for joining me for this episode.

8
Beth 00:00:25,020 --> 00:00:26,580
This is Episode 42.

9
Beth 00:00:27,180 --> 00:00:29,500
In this one, I am joined by two guests,

10
Beth 00:00:29,940 --> 00:00:32,600
Fernando Murray and Carolina Almeida.

11
Beth 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,100
I'll tell you just a little bit about each of the two of

12
Beth 00:00:36,100 --> 00:00:36,320
them,

13
Beth 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:38,340
and then you are going to get to know them a little bit

14
Beth 00:00:38,340 --> 00:00:40,820
better through the actual conversation in the episode,

15
Beth 00:00:41,020 --> 00:00:41,740
as always.

16
Beth 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:44,000
Fernando, let's start with him.

17
Beth 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,760
His background over the last 24 years has been in group

18
Beth 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,500
facilitation and experiential learning.

19
Beth 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:52,640
He is a member of the IAF,

20
Beth 00:00:53,020 --> 00:00:55,580
the International Association of Facilitators,

21
Beth 00:00:56,020 --> 00:00:58,440
and he's also connected with other professional

22
Beth 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,280
facilitation networks in different cultures and countries,

23
Beth 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:03,440
including the Liberating Structures community,

24
Beth 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,020
which is how I know both Fernando and Carolina.

25
Beth 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:06,860
Now,

26
Beth 00:01:07,100 --> 00:01:11,220
Carolina Almeida is also a seasoned facilitator and experiential

27
Beth 00:01:11,220 --> 00:01:14,280
educator with an extensive background in outdoor

28
Beth 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:14,940
activities.

29
Beth 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,620
Carolina currently develops online communication and

30
Beth 00:01:18,620 --> 00:01:21,080
facilitation projects for remote teams.

31
Beth 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:22,680
She works as a mentor,

32
Beth 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,640
and she does train the trainers for online and in-person

33
Beth 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:26,620
group facilitation,

34
Beth 00:01:26,980 --> 00:01:29,960
and she also works as a therapeutic counselor in the

35
Beth 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:31,520
Kootenays here in British Columbia.

36
Beth 00:01:32,220 --> 00:01:35,000
I love that this episode is coming right after the episode

37
Beth 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,860
with Yasser Tamer,

38
Beth 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,720
because this one's on safe learning spaces,

39
Beth 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,560
and that's what Yasser was talking about,

40
Beth 00:01:42,660 --> 00:01:45,240
and I feel like we're almost continuing the conversation

41
Beth 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:46,680
with two new people,

42
Beth 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:47,720
Fernando and Carolina,

43
Beth 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,880
and we're going further into that topic of how we as

44
Beth 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,380
facilitators create safe learning experiences and safe

45
Beth 00:01:55,380 --> 00:01:57,360
learning environments with our groups.

46
Beth 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,720
One of the great things about this episode is that Fernando

47
Beth 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,700
and Carolina work in countries that I don't work in and

48
Beth 00:02:03,700 --> 00:02:04,880
maybe you don't work in,

49
Beth 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,240
and so as you listen to the episode,

50
Beth 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,900
you are going to get so much to add to your knowledge base

51
Beth 00:02:11,900 --> 00:02:15,060
around working across cultures as a facilitator.

52
Beth 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:16,900
And we, of course,

53
Beth 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,240
talk about Liberating Structures as well.

54
Beth 00:02:19,740 --> 00:02:21,380
So I hope you enjoy this episode.

55
Beth 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,340
This is Fernando Murray and Carolina Almeida talking with

56
Beth 00:02:25,340 --> 00:02:27,120
me about safe learning spaces.

57
Beth 00:02:27,660 --> 00:02:28,280
Enjoy the show.

58
Beth 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,560
Fernando, Carolina, I'm so glad you're here.

59
Beth 00:02:33,700 --> 00:02:34,620
Welcome to the show.

60
Beth 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:35,700
Thanks for being with me.

61
Carolina 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,200
Thank you for coming.

62
Carolina 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:38,320
It's a pleasure.

63
Beth 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:39,660
It is a pleasure.

64
Beth 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:40,960
I've been looking forward to this.

65
Beth 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,000
I'm pleased that we're seeing each other online again,

66
Beth 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:45,400
we've never met in person though.

67
Beth 00:02:45,620 --> 00:02:47,580
So one day, I hope we get a chance to do that.

68
Beth 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:49,880
But it's nice that we've met online.

69
Beth 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:51,540
And I've been watching your work,

70
Beth 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:53,200
both of you for a long time.

71
Beth 00:02:53,380 --> 00:02:56,180
Thanks for all that you do for the community, virtually, Li

72
Beth 00:02:56,180 --> 00:02:58,120
berating Structures and otherwise,

73
Beth 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,160
you're quite leaders in that field.

74
Beth 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,160
So thanks for what you're putting out there to the world.

75
Carolina 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,500
Yeah, it started because we had to.

76
Carolina 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:09,760
We started online in 2016,

77
Carolina 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,260
working for our clients in Brazil.

78
Carolina 00:03:12,820 --> 00:03:14,020
So it was not an option.

79
Carolina 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:15,220
It wasn't nice.

80
Carolina 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:16,480
We had to.

81
Carolina 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,360
But then we kind of got a hand of this and kept doing it.

82
Carolina 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:20,880
It's so fun.

83
Carolina 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,560
And being able to connect with people in different regions,

84
Carolina 00:03:24,380 --> 00:03:25,080
it's amazing.

85
Carolina 00:03:25,620 --> 00:03:26,500
We can learn so much.

86
Beth 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:28,080
That's what I was thinking, too,

87
Beth 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:29,280
about our conversation today,

88
Beth 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,740
that I know that I can learn a lot from you two,

89
Beth 00:03:31,740 --> 00:03:35,220
because you do work across countries and across cultures.

90
Beth 00:03:35,580 --> 00:03:38,720
And so definitely bring that into our conversation because

91
Beth 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,900
I'm hoping to learn from you because I really work here in

92
Beth 00:03:41,900 --> 00:03:45,040
Canada only and haven't gone to other countries myself.

93
Beth 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:45,940
So you're,

94
Beth 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,160
you're definitely ahead of a lot of us who haven't crossed

95
Beth 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:49,460
those boundaries yet.

96
Carolina 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,020
Yeah, we have been here in Canada for 11 years,

97
Carolina 00:03:54,180 --> 00:03:58,420
and I think along this time we're learning more and more

98
Carolina 00:03:58,420 --> 00:04:03,740
Canadian culture and how to blend maybe the two cultures,

99
Carolina 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,520
but also working in Brazil and in North America.

100
Carolina 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,000
So it's a nice stretch,

101
Carolina 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,360
a nice facilitation skill stretch. [Absolutely.]

102
Fernando 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:15,840
I still remember, remember Carolina,

103
Fernando 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:20,399
the first time we facilitated a group here in Canada.

104
Fernando 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,600
I was leading like a warm-up and it was completely awful.

105
Carolina 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:25,380
Yeah, it was! [they laugh]

106
Fernando 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,480
Yeah, I facilitated the way I used to in Brazil,

107
Fernando 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:33,760
and I didn't frame it properly.

108
Fernando 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,580
I didn't get the instructions correctly.

109
Fernando 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:38,400
So the group was looking at me and saying,

110
Fernando 00:04:38,860 --> 00:04:40,400
what the hell are we doing here?

111
Fernando 00:04:40,860 --> 00:04:42,000
And I was, yeah, it was weird.

112
Fernando 00:04:42,420 --> 00:04:45,440
And then we, we started learning, oh, it's different here.

113
Fernando 00:04:45,580 --> 00:04:47,360
We need to do this before we do that.

114
Fernando 00:04:47,420 --> 00:04:50,460
And then we start moving back and forth to, to adapt.

115
Fernando 00:04:51,020 --> 00:04:51,320
Yeah.

116
Fernando 00:04:51,340 --> 00:04:54,900
But I always remember being inadequate for the first time.

117
Fernando 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:56,240
I kept doing this,

118
Fernando 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:57,620
being inadequate along the years [they laugh],

119
Fernando 00:04:57,700 --> 00:05:01,160
but less often. [Carolina: Less and less often!] And

120
Fernando 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,360
actually that's,

121
Fernando 00:05:03,500 --> 00:05:06,200
this is one thing that I usually say for the groups.

122
Fernando 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,900
It's, uh, forgive me if I do something that it's, uh,

123
Fernando 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,640
inadequate in your culture because I come from this culture

124
Fernando 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:14,200
and even in Brazil,

125
Fernando 00:05:14,420 --> 00:05:17,320
sometimes we have been living outside from Brazil a lot of

126
Fernando 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:17,520
times.

127
Fernando 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,800
So sometimes I can be inadequate here as well. So,

128
Fernando 00:05:20,820 --> 00:05:21,420
forgive me.

129
Fernando 00:05:22,220 --> 00:05:25,060
And it creates a little bit of safety for people to point

130
Fernando 00:05:25,060 --> 00:05:26,300
me in the right directions.

131
Beth 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,800
It's a nice segue into our conversation about safe learning

132
Beth 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:29,300
environments.

133
Beth 00:05:29,540 --> 00:05:34,300
Is that one thing that you do to set the scene for a safe

134
Beth 00:05:34,300 --> 00:05:34,960
learning environment?

135
Beth 00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:38,000
You bring yourself into that and just say, hey, you know,

136
Beth 00:05:38,340 --> 00:05:40,380
tell me if something I'm doing isn't,

137
Beth 00:05:40,380 --> 00:05:41,520
isn't working for you, basically.

138
Carolina 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:47,380
Yeah I think like in Brazil, we have to do things like, oh,

139
Carolina 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,560
I dare you can be in silence.

140
Carolina 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,380
It's like this kind of thing.

141
Carolina 00:05:52,780 --> 00:05:55,680
And here in North America, people to feel safe,

142
Carolina 00:05:56,140 --> 00:05:57,060
we have to say, OK,

143
Carolina 00:05:57,140 --> 00:06:00,400
now we are going to do a reflective activity.

144
Carolina 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,000
We need silence.

145
Carolina 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,220
And so please, we're going to do this and that.

146
Carolina 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,100
So this is very different.

147
Carolina 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:12,500
And the way how people feel safe, it's very different too.

148
Carolina 00:06:12,500 --> 00:06:16,760
So how you are going to frame something in a way that

149
Carolina 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:18,520
people can feel, OK,

150
Carolina 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:23,660
I can jump into this activity and it's safe for me to do

151
Carolina 00:06:23,660 --> 00:06:23,960
that.

152
Carolina 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,700
So I think this is the main thing that we have been

153
Carolina 00:06:27,700 --> 00:06:30,380
learning, like facilitating different cultures.

154
Carolina 00:06:30,820 --> 00:06:32,120
Also, we went to Portugal,

155
Carolina 00:06:32,940 --> 00:06:35,340
which is like we speak the same language,

156
Carolina 00:06:35,620 --> 00:06:37,100
but totally different culture.

157
Fernando 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,380
Yeah, it's more European culture.

158
Carolina 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,040
So it's a mix of the North American and the

159
Carolina 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,100
Brazilian. [laughs] So it's in the middle.

160
Carolina 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:51,500
So it's very interesting what we need to do in order to get

161
Carolina 00:06:51,500 --> 00:06:53,440
this safe learning environment.

162
Beth 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,500
It sounds like you really have to pay attention as you go

163
Beth 00:06:57,500 --> 00:06:59,980
and work with each new culture, each new client.

164
Beth 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:01,660
But let's back up a bit,

165
Beth 00:07:01,660 --> 00:07:04,800
because I want to see if we can set a container around,

166
Beth 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:07,660
what is a learning environment for you two,

167
Beth 00:07:07,860 --> 00:07:09,420
when you go out, is it always a workshop?

168
Beth 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:11,900
Is it another thing?

169
Beth 00:07:12,500 --> 00:07:12,600
Like,

170
Beth 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,380
how can you give me a boundary around making learning environments

171
Beth 00:07:16,380 --> 00:07:17,800
safe by starting with saying,

172
Beth 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:19,260
what is a learning environment for you?

173
Beth 00:07:19,340 --> 00:07:21,220
And then maybe we can talk about what is safe.

174
Fernando 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:22,620
If you go back, back, back,

175
Fernando 00:07:23,100 --> 00:07:25,620
we start facilitating groups in the outdoors,

176
Fernando 00:07:26,020 --> 00:07:29,580
like rock climbing, rafting, mountain expeditions.

177
Fernando 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,360
So in every Outdoor [sic] Bound or NOSE course,

178
Fernando 00:07:33,500 --> 00:07:35,420
the progression is always the same.

179
Fernando 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:36,940
Is the group safe?

180
Fernando 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,660
That's the first thing, physically safe.

181
Fernando 00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:41,380
Are they having fun?

182
Fernando 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:43,620
Okay, are they learning something?

183
Fernando 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:45,140
So that's the progression.

184
Fernando 00:07:45,980 --> 00:07:48,640
So safety, have fun, and then you learn something.

185
Fernando 00:07:49,140 --> 00:07:52,960
So I think this is ingrained in our way of facilitate

186
Fernando 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:54,740
groups and be with groups, basically.

187
Beth 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:57,320
Was that the same for you, Carolina,

188
Beth 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,760
that you both came from the Outward Bound,

189
Beth 00:07:59,940 --> 00:08:02,060
sort of outdoor education realm?

190
Carolina 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:07,060
Yeah, I'm same background, but I'm a counselor now,

191
Carolina 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,360
so I think I added some other stuff here.

192
Carolina 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,320
If you include people and you respect people,

193
Carolina 00:08:15,420 --> 00:08:19,120
and I think they feel safe to be there,

194
Carolina 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,300
so there is this physical, emotional securities.

195
Carolina 00:08:23,900 --> 00:08:27,100
It's more like, okay, it's the whole thing.

196
Carolina 00:08:27,260 --> 00:08:31,060
It's difficult to separate because it has to be everything

197
Carolina 00:08:31,060 --> 00:08:31,520
at once.

198
Beth 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:33,320
Yeah.

199
Beth 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,440
And you're actually, people can't see you,

200
Beth 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,260
but you're drawing a circle with your hand,

201
Beth 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,760
kind of like a holistic sort of movement you're

202
Beth 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,480
making, that, yeah, there's physical safety in there.

203
Beth 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:44,860
There's emotional safety.

204
Beth 00:08:45,940 --> 00:08:47,060
Are there other kinds of safety?

205
Fernando 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,280
I think we pay attention to a lot of details and we used to

206
Fernando 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,360
to say for our colleagues,

207
Fernando 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,300
we have many facilitators that they work with us and they

208
Fernando 00:08:55,300 --> 00:08:56,640
come from the same background.

209
Fernando 00:08:57,420 --> 00:08:58,460
So when we are outdoor,

210
Fernando 00:08:58,660 --> 00:09:01,220
we are not just paying attention for the group and the

211
Fernando 00:09:01,220 --> 00:09:02,460
dynamic or the content.

212
Fernando 00:09:02,980 --> 00:09:04,500
We are paying attention to the weather,

213
Fernando 00:09:05,300 --> 00:09:07,100
to the boots of some participants,

214
Fernando 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:08,840
the way they wear their backpack.

215
Fernando 00:09:09,180 --> 00:09:12,020
So we are using it to pay attention to a lot of things.

216
Fernando 00:09:12,620 --> 00:09:15,700
And when we work in partnership and when we are co

217
Fernando 00:09:15,700 --> 00:09:17,180
-facilitator or co-leading something,

218
Fernando 00:09:17,340 --> 00:09:18,660
we have these two perspectives.

219
Fernando 00:09:19,820 --> 00:09:22,620
So also sharing our perspectives about what is happening,

220
Fernando 00:09:22,860 --> 00:09:23,660
what can be happening.

221
Fernando 00:09:24,820 --> 00:09:28,680
So always paying attention and sharing more ourselves to be

222
Fernando 00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:31,760
sure that everybody is included and everything is going

223
Fernando 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:32,180
well.

224
Fernando 00:09:32,940 --> 00:09:34,220
Sometimes we just have some signals.

225
Fernando 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,840
We can't interpret the signals properly all the time.

226
Fernando 00:09:37,060 --> 00:09:39,240
So we keep sharing and trying to

227
Fernando 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:39,660
understand. Right, Carolina?

228
Carolina 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,620
And I have been researching [chuckles] ourselves about

229
Carolina 00:09:45,620 --> 00:09:45,980
that,

230
Carolina 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,060
because how we do that? Because sometimes we do a lot of

231
Carolina 00:09:50,060 --> 00:09:51,160
train-the-trainers.

232
Carolina 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,020
And this is quite a skill to have.

233
Carolina 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,600
And so how we train people to have this skill.

234
Carolina 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,420
So we have thinking about that for a long time.

235
Carolina 00:10:02,680 --> 00:10:05,180
And one key word is vulnerability.

236
Carolina 00:10:05,830 --> 00:10:09,920
If you can show as a facilitator your vulnerability,

237
Carolina 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,800
people feel free to get into theirs.

238
Carolina 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,760
So then we kind of agree in a way that, OK,

239
Carolina 00:10:18,940 --> 00:10:20,980
we are all together in this.

240
Carolina 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:23,340
And we can be ourselves.

241
Carolina 00:10:23,740 --> 00:10:25,920
We can be our genuine selves here.

242
Beth 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,500
Yes, and Fernando said inadequate before.

243
Beth 00:10:29,020 --> 00:10:30,680
Really, you said, you come in saying,

244
Beth 00:10:30,980 --> 00:10:32,360
tell me when I'm inadequate.

245
Beth 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,700
Tell me when I fail or make mistakes, right?

246
Beth 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:38,240
And that just gets right down to the vulnerability. [laughs]

247
Fernando 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:40,360
And I will be making mistakes.

248
Fernando 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:42,340
So just let me know.

249
Fernando 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,660
So when we say for a group of people that I never met

250
Fernando 00:10:45,660 --> 00:10:47,360
before, these kind of things,

251
Fernando 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:47,960
this is Carolina is saying. We allow them to do the same. So you don't know us well this group, but we are okay to make mistakes here.

252
Fernando 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,800
So this is one concept that we really keep alive is this

253
Fernando 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,440
safety is not one person taking care of the group.

254
Fernando 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,760
It's everybody in the group is paying attention and taking

255
Fernando 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,060
care of the safety of the group.

256
Fernando 00:11:07,060 --> 00:11:08,600
So it's a really big net.

257
Fernando 00:11:09,380 --> 00:11:10,900
Everybody's holding lots of strings.

258
Fernando 00:11:11,660 --> 00:11:13,380
So this net is held by everybody.

259
Fernando 00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:15,300
It's impossible for one person to be responsible.

260
Fernando 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,060
So safety comes from the attention from the group,

261
Fernando 00:11:19,220 --> 00:11:20,520
not one person only.

262
Beth 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:25,040
That's nice because you talked about co-facilitating with

263
Beth 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:26,800
yourselves and your colleagues,

264
Beth 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,440
but you bring the participants into that net of, okay,

265
Beth 00:11:31,460 --> 00:11:33,120
we're all here to support each other.

266
Beth 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:34,800
Carolina, you were going to say something,

267
Beth 00:11:34,940 --> 00:11:35,180
but I want to then say, how do you do that?

268
Beth 00:11:37,940 --> 00:11:39,480
How do you draw your participants in?

269
Beth 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:40,100
But you go first.

270
Carolina 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,060
Yeah, just adding here that when we bring people in,

271
Carolina 00:11:46,140 --> 00:11:50,400
and they feel the autonomy to do whatever they feel right.

272
Carolina 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:56,800
And so then people can be free to start doing things.

273
Carolina 00:11:57,100 --> 00:12:00,980
And we are correcting our say, oh, this wasn't adequate.

274
Carolina 00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:02,620
We need to change this.

275
Carolina 00:12:02,900 --> 00:12:04,760
But we are open to discuss.

276
Carolina 00:12:05,260 --> 00:12:08,160
Because it's not everybody is right all the time.

277
Carolina 00:12:08,740 --> 00:12:10,260
We make mistakes, right?

278
Carolina 00:12:10,260 --> 00:12:11,960
But we can make mistakes,

279
Carolina 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:14,060
and people can talk about the mistakes,

280
Carolina 00:12:14,340 --> 00:12:16,420
and we can make it right.

281
Carolina 00:12:17,740 --> 00:12:19,040
And this is human beings.

282
Carolina 00:12:19,740 --> 00:12:23,360
And I think when we bring this humanity into place,

283
Carolina 00:12:24,020 --> 00:12:27,840
people just feel more [makes an 'ooh' sound] relieved and

284
Carolina 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:28,360
comfortable.

285
Carolina 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:30,280
You can breathe.

286
Carolina 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:35,520
You can make mistakes, basically, and like that.

287
Beth 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:36,960
That's why I like some of the language from Liberating S

288
Beth 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:37,380
tructures.

289
Beth 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:40,180
I know you two are real Liberating Structures experts,

290
Beth 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:44,640
but the word invitation, you know, those many years ago,

291
Beth 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,540
when it came into my realm, LS,

292
Beth 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,760
that we're inviting people in.

293
Beth 00:12:49,100 --> 00:12:51,160
And I don't know, I can't remember that far back.

294
Beth 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,800
I mean, was I thinking about inviting people in before?

295
Beth 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:54,160
Maybe,

296
Beth 00:12:54,380 --> 00:12:57,380
but I think it was Liberating Structures that really brought

297
Beth 00:12:57,380 --> 00:13:00,400
that word to the forefront to me.

298
Beth 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,920
Have you had the same reaction to the word invitation?

299
Beth 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,560
Or do you use other words to kind of create that net you

300
Beth 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:08,200
were talking about?

301
Fernando 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,100
Yeah, with Liberating Structures,

302
Fernando 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,640
this word got like a body of understanding around this.

303
Fernando 00:13:13,980 --> 00:13:15,580
And there are many ways to look at this invitation.

304
Fernando 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:16,080
For example,

305
Fernando 00:13:16,260 --> 00:13:18,480
one invitation that we do at the beginning with the group,

306
Fernando 00:13:19,220 --> 00:13:21,100
because we are there usually as facilitators,

307
Fernando 00:13:21,260 --> 00:13:24,760
the leaders can be seen like the educators or the teachers

308
Fernando 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:26,700
or we have the power.

309
Fernando 00:13:27,340 --> 00:13:30,240
So we are entitled to be in front of the group speaking to

310
Fernando 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:30,480
them.

311
Fernando 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,700
So when we have this scenario, we right off the bat,

312
Fernando 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,480
we invite people to drop this perception.

313
Fernando 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:40,440
We are not here to teach you.

314
Fernando 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:43,320
We are here to facilitate the learning among ourselves.

315
Fernando 00:13:43,660 --> 00:13:44,860
We'll be learning from you.

316
Fernando 00:13:45,260 --> 00:13:46,300
You'll be learning from us.

317
Fernando 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:47,600
You'll be learning from everybody else.

318
Fernando 00:13:47,740 --> 00:13:49,300
So everybody will be learning from everybody.

319
Fernando 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,780
So we level the playing field at the beginning.

320
Fernando 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,400
So that's a big invitation, not just for one exercise,

321
Fernando 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:57,680
but for the whole thing.

322
Fernando 00:13:57,940 --> 00:14:01,080
So we put ourselves in the same level of the participants,

323
Fernando 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:01,620
let's say.

324
Fernando 00:14:02,380 --> 00:14:06,860
And then there is a behaviour that we sustain along the

325
Fernando 00:14:06,860 --> 00:14:08,820
process that is not over-helping,

326
Fernando 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:11,440
which is something that we also learn from

327
Fernando 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:11,680
Liberating Structures.

328
Fernando 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,260
Every time the group asks a question or asks for support,

329
Fernando 00:14:16,420 --> 00:14:21,700
usually this goes towards the facilitator and we just dodge

330
Fernando 00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:25,480
the requests [Beth laughs] and let the group figure it out.

331
Fernando 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,620
So if they don't have us to support,

332
Fernando 00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:29,460
which is kind of a counter,

333
Fernando 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,140
we are there to help them and we don't.

334
Fernando 00:14:33,140 --> 00:14:35,980
It's counterintuitive, but they start, okay, I need help.

335
Fernando 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,640
So they look for the peers and they learn and they overcome

336
Fernando 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:40,180
the challenges.

337
Fernando 00:14:41,020 --> 00:14:43,080
But if we help them, if we lend a hand,

338
Fernando 00:14:43,420 --> 00:14:44,960
we have this expression in Portuguese,

339
Fernando 00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:47,680
you lend a hand and they get your arm.

340
Beth 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:48,240
Like a crossed arm. You kind of made a crossed arm movement.

341
Fernando 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:51,180
No you lend and the person not just gets your hand but gets your arm. Yeah.

342
Beth 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:57,760
Keeps pulling. [chuckles] Oh, I see what you mean. Okay. Yeah, so so don't give it to them. Basically they'll turn to somebody else.

343
Fernando 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:03,300
Yeah, so it's delicate because we need to give some offers and advice sometimes, but most of the time we don't have to. So this is delicate to use.

344
Carolina 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,000
And I think it's so powerful when I, or anyone,

345
Carolina 00:15:18,380 --> 00:15:22,520
find the way to do something instead of just, I need help,

346
Carolina 00:15:22,660 --> 00:15:24,520
I need, I don't know if I need help really.

347
Carolina 00:15:24,780 --> 00:15:27,520
Sometimes I just ask for help, like for a facilitator.

348
Carolina 00:15:27,740 --> 00:15:28,860
Oh I didn't understand,

349
Carolina 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:29,800
but really, if I, you know, just be in silence a little bit, it's inside, I know. Or someone, so then it's very powerful. So you start believing in yourself more. But if you overhelp the person, this person doesn't have the chance to look to her or himself.

350
Fernando 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:52,340
Yeah, it does empower the person.

351
Carolina 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:53,240
Yeah.

352
Beth 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:54,400
Yeah, I love that phrase. I don't think I've heard it said that way before because I've talked about that concept but not thought about it as 'over helping', like the trap of over helping. Yeah, thanks for just giving us that language around it.

353
Fernando 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:07,420
And this is a more feminine behaviour. I noticed Carolina sometimes over-helping and sometimes she was not over helping, but we always have this battle. I actually need to make efforts to help more. So

354
Fernando 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:24,120
we are in opposite scenarios and we try to meet at the

355
Fernando 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:25,880
middle, but it's always delicate.

356
Fernando 00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:26,340
Sometimes you really need to step up and help and sometimes when you just step aside. Do you remember Carolina when we did the invitation for Heard, Seen, Respected, that Liberating Structure where people have to remember a story about a time where you were not heard, seen or respected.

357
Fernando 00:16:43,660 --> 00:16:47,040
And then we made a mistake actually because we invited the

358
Fernando 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:52,360
person to remember a story and then we invite them to meet

359
Fernando 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:52,700
in pairs.

360
Carolina 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:53,220
Pair up first, we said, Oh, now pair up. And then we give the invitation. So remember, sorry, when you were not, heard, seen or respected. And so the two guys, it was a couple. And the woman raised her hand and said, Oh, can I change a pair?

361
Carolina 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:15,160
So but then the group started already.

362
Fernando 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:16,300
Yeah, they were stopped for like a couple of minutes, staring at each other, lots of things going on. And then she asked her for this help. And Carolina and I we looked at each other, because we knew that they were a couple.

363
Fernando 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:28,680
The group was going, and all the possibilities just pumping in our minds, okay, we can pair with them and make two more pairs, or we can interrupt the group. But we did nothing. We just stopped and looked at them.

364
Fernando 00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:45,140
And then they, they sat down, yeah, you know,

365
Fernando 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:46,660
I think we need to discuss it.

366
Beth 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:47,280
[Laughs] So you literally did nothing? Like you just kind of looked...you didn't say anything? You did nothing?

367
Fernando 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:53,180
We didn't say anything. We just look at each other, start thinking, but we didn't mind.

368
Carolina 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:57,640
I said, no, actually she said, Oh,

369
Carolina 00:17:57,740 --> 00:18:00,440
can I change the pairs with the hand?

370
Carolina 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:01,620
I just didn't say

371
Fernando 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:03,400
Out of the options, yeah.

372
Beth 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:05,340
Yeah. Yeah. So just even the shake of the head. [laughs]

373
Carolina 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:08,620
I was just like, you know, nodding and just like, no, and with my head and then they look at each other and say, oh, I don't know what to say. And then the woman said, we must figure out what to say to each other now.

374
Fernando 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:23,280
Yeah, it was that moment that was easy to just jump in and try to solve or help or do something, but we didn't.

375
Beth 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:31,200
Now, how does safety come into that example? Because in some ways I want to say that feels like it could be unsafe because you don't know their relationship. Maybe they're about to divorce or who knows what.

376
Beth 00:18:42,220 --> 00:18:42,220
I mean, what do you say about safety and not overhelping?

377
Carolina 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:48,620
It's very interesting, this specific scene that I have in my mind. And there is something about like, looking to the body language, and seeing that they were ready to be with them to each other. You know, they weren't in...this was hard, but wasn't [un]safe.

378
Beth 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:08,220
Yeah, it can be hard.

379
Carolina 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:10,360
So, I think body language, it's very, very important to read the room and the people and understand if they are safe or not, what is going on.

380
Beth 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:24,200
Now you work across cultures. How does body language work when you're in a new country or you're back in your home countries where you grew up as opposed to here or...you know, body language doesn't necessarily always cross across cultures, does it?

381
Fernando 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:41,180
I think some things, yes, but it's always good to check. And we ask questions all the time and we also make ourselves available if the people need to really get some help. If you are not getting to them to help, if you are a far observed in the group or available, some people really stand up and cross the room and come to us

382
Fernando 00:20:03,340 --> 00:20:03,420
and you can see on the walk how important it is. [They all chuckle.]

383
Fernando 00:20:07,820 --> 00:20:07,880
And yeah, this is one thing. But yeah, maybe some things we feel, we observe and feel. What do you think Carolina?

384
Carolina 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:16,340
I think there is also the energy of the group or the field or something that is more subtle. I was just imagining if we go to Japan, it would be a very different culture. Probably we are going to need to tune ourselves to that body language, because it'd be different from Brazilians, for sure, and from North Americans.

385
Carolina 00:20:40,380 --> 00:20:40,380
So I think from Brazilians, the whole Americas, it's almost the same kind of science. Maybe Brazilians are more exaggerated. [laughs]

386
Fernando 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:51,860
Yeah, more expansive.

387
Carolina 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:52,280
I'm wondering about very different cultures, like Indians, for example. Probably if you go to India, probably it's different. Then I need to travel more to say more about that.

388
Beth 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:04,320
Yeah, we need to just pay attention, don't we? And maybe ask for help from the group or, you know, someone that hired us or that kind of thing. Absolutely.

389
Fernando 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:13,280
Yeah, you can use improv prototyping form to explore this topic with a multicultural group. But another thing that helps this level of safety in the group, we were discussing this actually yesterday with the group.

390
Fernando 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:26,500
One question from a lady was around catharsis and people getting emotional in a process and you are the facilitator. And we were with Keith and Henri [the two Liberating Structures founders] in a celebrity interview. They had very different answers.

391
Fernando 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:40,080
But basically what they said, and we agree totally, the structures they carry this weight in a much better way than us as facilitators. Because the group, as they are organizing small groups in different configurations, they hold the space for each other.

392
Fernando 00:21:58,320 --> 00:21:58,340
So if something burst in a small group, usually that small group can handle. And if they can't handle totally, they can start the process and invite someone else from another group or from the facilitators.

393
Fernando 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:11,360
So we have more people handling this all around. So it's embedded in these structures. So Keith was saying about his work, helping people in these scenarios, especially with grief walking, one structure that really touches a lot of deep spaces.

394
Fernando 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:29,040
And Henri was saying that he never saw this, using these structures. People take care of their own fears and their questions and their challenges, and he doesn't get involved. So completely different approaches, but the structures are in the common ground, I think, the Liberating Structures.

395
Carolina 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:47,220
And I think it depends on how you set the tone in the beginning of the workshop or the gathering. So if you set the tone in a way that we are partners in this journey, we are together. So if you question what's going on, then people can give you feedback.

396
Carolina 00:23:07,780 --> 00:23:08,120
Because we can think about, oh, this is happening, or this is... But we don't know for sure sometimes. And just reflecting back, saying, okay, I'm seeing that this is happening here. How is that for you?

397
Carolina 00:23:25,180 --> 00:23:25,640
Is it true for you? What's happening in this group? And sometimes we need this feedback. And because we set the tone in a way that we are open to do that, so people just will say, yeah, we need a break. We are not OK.

398
Carolina 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,360
And then we can have a break and rethink what to do.

399
Carolina 00:23:43,700 --> 00:23:47,580
I think it's a partnership more than us and them.

400
Beth 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:48,200
Is there something that you two do when people start to come into the room, either a physical in-person room or a virtual room? Because I do intentional things as I start to meet people as they come in, whichever mode we're talking about, but

401
Beth 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,220
how do you start it off so that you're leveling that

402
Beth 00:24:06,220 --> 00:24:08,240
playing field with your participants,

403
Beth 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,000
to make it feel more safe?

404
Beth 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:11,040
I should go on to say.

405
Carolina 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,360
I think for me,

406
Carolina 00:24:12,380 --> 00:24:15,660
there is something that is important for me to feel

407
Carolina 00:24:15,660 --> 00:24:17,520
comfortable, to feel safe,

408
Carolina 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,540
so then I can start setting the tone.

409
Carolina 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,300
So it's to connect with people,

410
Carolina 00:24:23,620 --> 00:24:25,720
and I need to have some connection.

411
Carolina 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:27,400
So if it is in person,

412
Carolina 00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:31,620
we used to have like a coffee break or a welcome coffee or

413
Carolina 00:24:31,620 --> 00:24:35,760
even a breakfast, and we invite people to come before.

414
Carolina 00:24:35,980 --> 00:24:37,980
So we have this time that people are eating,

415
Carolina 00:24:38,740 --> 00:24:42,220
and it's a warm way to greet people.

416
Carolina 00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:46,520
And while you're eating in a very informal way,

417
Carolina 00:24:46,780 --> 00:24:49,800
we are talking to people and understanding where they come

418
Carolina 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,300
from, what are their expectations, and this kind of thing.

419
Carolina 00:24:54,780 --> 00:24:58,260
It helps me a lot to feel connected first.

420
Carolina 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:00,900
And also in online,

421
Carolina 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,660
we do kind of the same thing without food.

422
Carolina 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:04,600
[laughs]

423
Beth 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:05,280
I know, it's sad we can't have food. [laughs]

424
Fernando 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:07,260
Usually we ask people to rename themselves with different things. So, for example, in our first session, we ask people to add their names, how are they arriving for the session? Or better level, like five stars,

425
Fernando 00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:21,580
you are pumping one star, you're kind of ah, running.

426
Fernando 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:26,000
And yeah, superpowers don't have to be real, but what's your superpower? So start playing with people and turning visible what is invisible. So in virtual, it's easier to get this invisible happening because people are just typing and changing their names or opening and closing the cameras. But you always have something to connect with them.

427
Carolina 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,760
Yeah, something that we don't do,

428
Carolina 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,400
and I have seen some people doing it.

429
Carolina 00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:57,240
It's like sharing screen and a music while people are

430
Carolina 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:58,340
getting into the room.

431
Carolina 00:25:58,820 --> 00:26:00,420
So why we don't do that?

432
Carolina 00:26:00,620 --> 00:26:01,940
Because then we lose the connection.

433
Beth 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,620
Yeah, with the shared screen.

434
Carolina 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,880
Yeah, what we do is like, okay, just come and oh,

435
Carolina 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,960
if you can open your camera, we would like to see you.

436
Carolina 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,340
And then we kind of trying to be very informal and then

437
Carolina 00:26:15,340 --> 00:26:15,880
renaming.

438
Carolina 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,860
And then, oh, a lot of people are happy here.

439
Carolina 00:26:19,180 --> 00:26:20,780
Oh, you see, oh, I'm happy too.

440
Carolina 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,940
And you try like having these commonalities among people.

441
Fernando 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:25,200
One thing that I like to do is to look at the people's backgrounds, like we all have real backgrounds, not this blurry one. So I can see, oh, there is an orchidia behind Beth and two kind of handmade pottery over there.

442
Fernando 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:39,180
Carolina has an alfaya behind her. So all these details. And sometimes I pick the person. Tell me more about that piece of pottery that you have. So people bring something that are very personal because they are usually in their homes or in a personal space.

443
Fernando 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:55,840
So that's one thing that you can use as well. Another thing that we do is, Carolina, remember when we ask, for example, Conversation Café, you need a talking piece, right? In virtual, you can't pass the talking piece around.

444
Fernando 00:27:07,700 --> 00:27:07,860
So we invite people to find an object that has a meaning for them. They go there and find something. And then we invite them. OK, when you are in groups, in the breakouts, start showing your object and talking about the meaning of that object for you.

445
Fernando 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,740
So they spend like four or five minutes sharing objects and

446
Fernando 00:27:29,740 --> 00:27:30,160
the stories.

447
Fernando 00:27:30,780 --> 00:27:32,820
So they kind of really connect at that moment,

448
Fernando 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:34,420
even in virtual,

449
Fernando 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,560
and then they start the process of the conversation.

450
Fernando 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,160
So that's a twist that we make to make virtual more warm

451
Fernando 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:42,060
between people.

452
Beth 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,500
And it works as I've been on the receiving end of that as a

453
Beth 00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:48,020
participant with facilitator Brett Macdonald,

454
Beth 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:49,920
who's been on the podcast before too.

455
Beth 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,660
And, and I forget what what she names it,

456
Beth 00:27:52,660 --> 00:27:55,560
but it's that that you say, look around your environment,

457
Beth 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,140
choose something that someone else can't see, actually.

458
Beth 00:27:59,540 --> 00:28:01,340
So you're talking about things you can see in my

459
Beth 00:28:01,340 --> 00:28:04,060
background, but there's something maybe over here, right,

460
Beth 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:05,820
that you can't see and,

461
Beth 00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:08,900
and then talk about that and tell the story of it.

462
Beth 00:28:09,060 --> 00:28:10,180
And it's wonderful.

463
Beth 00:28:10,780 --> 00:28:13,760
You learn so much and people can choose what to share or

464
Beth 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:14,000
not.

465
Beth 00:28:14,260 --> 00:28:15,600
There's a level of safety.

466
Beth 00:28:16,660 --> 00:28:16,920
Now, Fernando,

467
Beth 00:28:17,060 --> 00:28:18,900
I want to go back to something you said before,

468
Beth 00:28:18,900 --> 00:28:21,660
because it was about making yourself available to

469
Beth 00:28:21,660 --> 00:28:22,300
participants.

470
Beth 00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:24,300
That's so curious to me,

471
Beth 00:28:24,300 --> 00:28:26,220
because I think about a physical room,

472
Beth 00:28:26,220 --> 00:28:28,020
but I think it can happen in virtual too.

473
Beth 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,180
What does it look like to make yourself available or not to

474
Beth 00:28:32,180 --> 00:28:32,660
participants?

475
Fernando 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:33,160
Yeah,

476
Fernando 00:28:33,220 --> 00:28:35,500
one thing that we always speak at the beginning of any

477
Fernando 00:28:35,500 --> 00:28:38,120
event is that they can private message anyone,

478
Fernando 00:28:38,460 --> 00:28:39,800
because you can lock this in Zoom,

479
Fernando 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,220
you can prevent people from sending messages among

480
Fernando 00:28:42,220 --> 00:28:44,580
themselves, which is weird.

481
Fernando 00:28:45,620 --> 00:28:48,560
But we always say there will be many conversations

482
Fernando 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,620
happening in the private,

483
Fernando 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,000
and you can message directly people if you want to,

484
Fernando 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,100
just keep attention,

485
Fernando 00:28:56,580 --> 00:28:59,300
pay attention to not send private messages in public.

486
Fernando 00:28:59,900 --> 00:29:02,180
But nowadays you can delete, but yeah,

487
Fernando 00:29:02,780 --> 00:29:04,280
a little while ago we couldn't.

488
Fernando 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,380
And we say to people, if you need anything,

489
Fernando 00:29:07,380 --> 00:29:10,540
that you need any support, you can private message me,

490
Fernando 00:29:11,140 --> 00:29:12,380
and I can help you.

491
Fernando 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,060
And another thing that we do as well in the background,

492
Fernando 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,560
we have breakout rooms, we have 10 breakout rooms running.

493
Fernando 00:29:19,180 --> 00:29:20,380
We usually put two more.

494
Fernando 00:29:20,380 --> 00:29:23,640
We always have extra empty breakout rooms,

495
Fernando 00:29:23,860 --> 00:29:25,200
because if you need to do anything,

496
Fernando 00:29:25,460 --> 00:29:29,500
we have space to move to a private space and stay there.

497
Fernando 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,280
So this kind of some tricks that we can use in the virtual

498
Fernando 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,900
to create more safety for people.

499
Carolina 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,480
Yeah, in the same way, in person.

500
Carolina 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,300
So we always say in the beginning, like, oh,

501
Carolina 00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:45,780
if you have any issue, anything that you want to,

502
Carolina 00:29:45,980 --> 00:29:48,320
to tell you, have Fernando or have me,

503
Carolina 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,580
and you can come and talk privately.

504
Carolina 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,440
And so we are always open for that.

505
Carolina 00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:58,300
It's about availability, it's in too many ways.

506
Carolina 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,820
It's not just like be in person or in virtual a room

507
Carolina 00:30:02,820 --> 00:30:07,360
available, but also be open for the uncertainties.

508
Beth 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,220
That's a nice way to put that. Yeah.

509
Beth 00:30:10,140 --> 00:30:11,560
And you can hold that too.

510
Beth 00:30:12,220 --> 00:30:12,400
You know,

511
Beth 00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:16,200
some maybe newer facilitators or ones that like to more

512
Beth 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,960
tightly control what's happening may not like that, right?

513
Beth 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,580
But I kind of just like dealing with whatever happens.

514
Beth 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:24,420
I'm okay.

515
Beth 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,460
I feel like I can rely on myself or if I'm working with the

516
Beth 00:30:28,460 --> 00:30:29,100
co-facilitator,

517
Beth 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,400
we can handle pretty much anything that comes our way and

518
Beth 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,640
especially when we ask the group for help too, right?

519
Fernando 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,660
Yeah I remember once in a workshop in the middle of the

520
Fernando 00:30:38,660 --> 00:30:41,860
pandemic, at the beginning actually, the first months,

521
Fernando 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:48,240
one group was really multicultural and things got very

522
Fernando 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,080
messy at the middle and one lady was really pissed.

523
Fernando 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,480
She was really vocal and she just stopped the

524
Fernando 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,000
session to verbalize what she was feeling,

525
Fernando 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,400
confused and unsupported and everything.

526
Fernando 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,460
So me and the teacher,

527
Fernando 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,860
my co-facilitator was trying to calm her down but we let

528
Fernando 00:31:11,860 --> 00:31:14,280
her speak and then I suggest,

529
Fernando 00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:19,560
okay let's split in breakouts to just digest what we heard

530
Fernando 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,640
and please come back with some suggestions for us to move

531
Fernando 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,360
forward and then we split people in like pairs and triads

532
Fernando 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:28,880
in breakouts for six,

533
Fernando 00:31:29,180 --> 00:31:34,020
seven minutes more or less. And when people came back the

534
Fernando 00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:36,840
temperature we could really feel the temperature was down

535
Fernando 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,880
and people came with some suggestions and the lady was

536
Fernando 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,040
really calmer and okay to move on.

537
Fernando 00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:44,200
Well,

538
Fernando 00:31:44,220 --> 00:31:47,660
it was like the first time we had to mitigate a conflict in

539
Fernando 00:31:47,660 --> 00:31:50,560
virtual and that strategy actually [chuckles] became the

540
Fernando 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,220
main one to use.

541
Fernando 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:53,740
When we have things off track,

542
Fernando 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,360
let's break people and ask them to digest what they heard

543
Fernando 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,440
and come back with some suggestions.

544
Fernando 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,440
So we put everybody on the same place. Bring some ideas to

545
Fernando 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,280
solve this as a group,

546
Fernando 00:32:07,740 --> 00:32:11,900
don't rely on us to solve this problem alone and usually

547
Fernando 00:32:11,900 --> 00:32:15,660
when they come back some nice ideas come and then they

548
Fernando 00:32:15,660 --> 00:32:18,240
combine ideas and then we can move forward as a group.

549
Carolina 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:19,200
Yeah,

550
Carolina 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,000
this is a very good example of the What, So What, Now What.

551
Fernando 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:24,140
Yeah.

552
Beth 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,080
Yeah, I love that you're drawing the others in.

553
Beth 00:32:26,260 --> 00:32:28,760
You didn't overhelp as you said before. You could have

554
Beth 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:29,320
said, well,

555
Beth 00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:31,720
let's take a five minute break and we'll figure it out.

556
Beth 00:32:32,020 --> 00:32:34,660
And we'll come back and propose the solution to the group

557
Beth 00:32:34,660 --> 00:32:35,060
or something.

558
Beth 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:36,080
But you didn't do that.

559
Beth 00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:39,800
You really gave it to them to figure because you're better

560
Beth 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:41,180
together, aren't you?

561
Fernando 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:42,960
Yeah, actually,

562
Fernando 00:32:43,060 --> 00:32:44,520
we didn't have a clue what to do. [They all laugh.]

563
Beth 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,300
You heard some good ideas that you really needed!

564
Beth 00:32:48,860 --> 00:32:50,820
Yeah, we would all be in the same situation.

565
Beth 00:32:51,060 --> 00:32:54,000
Sometimes we just need the time too to percolate and think

566
Beth 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:54,420
about it.

567
Carolina 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,260
And more and more and more,

568
Carolina 00:32:56,540 --> 00:33:00,680
I believe the solution is not on us, not with us,

569
Carolina 00:33:00,820 --> 00:33:03,980
it's in the group, in the collective.

570
Carolina 00:33:05,220 --> 00:33:09,860
And it's more than just the facilitators trying to find a

571
Carolina 00:33:09,860 --> 00:33:10,460
solution.

572
Carolina 00:33:10,900 --> 00:33:14,880
We are a collective of humans and the solutions are within

573
Carolina 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:15,300
us.

574
Beth 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,500
And we go to our Liberating Structures, principles.

575
Beth 00:33:19,300 --> 00:33:19,540
Basically,

576
Beth 00:33:19,540 --> 00:33:22,000
there's one that says almost exactly that is that you

577
Beth 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,060
probably have it in your mind a bit more how we trust our

578
Beth 00:33:25,060 --> 00:33:26,980
local solutions or something like that.

579
Beth 00:33:27,180 --> 00:33:27,200
Right.

580
Beth 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:28,760
You know that one. [Fernando: Yeah.] Yeah.

581
Beth 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:29,800
We have to remember that.

582
Beth 00:33:29,980 --> 00:33:30,320
Now,

583
Beth 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,380
you two work with organizational clients as well and go

584
Beth 00:33:34,380 --> 00:33:36,460
into work with with companies, I think,

585
Beth 00:33:36,820 --> 00:33:39,300
and teach them about facilitation skills.

586
Beth 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,100
What are the things that you really want to try to help

587
Beth 00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:46,840
them come away with so that they can handle these things on

588
Beth 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,540
their own when they're trying to create safe learning

589
Beth 00:33:50,540 --> 00:33:53,480
spaces for themselves with you to not there to support them?

590
Fernando 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:53,160
Yeah, usually we are not there to do the work. We train them to do work. But one thing that is consistent, and we had this very same thing this morning, the group of business partners or internal consultants trying to solve the problems of groups or fix groups, that's consistent.

591
Fernando 00:34:11,060 --> 00:34:11,719
And that's the biggest mistake we can do because we are not part of that group.

592
Fernando 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,260
We are there to help them figure out the problems and

593
Fernando 00:34:20,260 --> 00:34:23,239
understand what the problem is and find the solutions they

594
Fernando 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:23,780
already have.

595
Fernando 00:34:24,340 --> 00:34:28,639
But the main behaviour is to bring things from outside and

596
Fernando 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:29,820
dump on people.

597
Fernando 00:34:30,179 --> 00:34:30,699
Do this.

598
Fernando 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,960
Let's train you on this because then you'll be able to do

599
Fernando 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:34,239
that.

600
Fernando 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:36,300
Oh my God, it doesn't work.

601
Fernando 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,100
So we are constantly saying about this and giving them

602
Fernando 00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:45,440
processes and techniques to help the group understand what

603
Fernando 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,820
is happening and bring their own solutions.

604
Fernando 00:34:47,820 --> 00:34:50,540
And sometimes the group, they find out, okay, we,

605
Fernando 00:34:50,540 --> 00:34:51,280
we know stuff.

606
Fernando 00:34:51,620 --> 00:34:54,460
We can do this, but there is this gap that we can't fill.

607
Fernando 00:34:54,699 --> 00:34:56,199
We don't know how to do this.

608
Fernando 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:57,880
And then a business partner,

609
Fernando 00:34:57,980 --> 00:35:00,620
the external consultant can bring specifically that piece

610
Fernando 00:35:00,620 --> 00:35:02,480
because they ask it for.

611
Fernando 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,600
So this is one thing that we try to help people to

612
Fernando 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:07,040
understand.

613
Fernando 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:08,600
And actually it's easier.

614
Fernando 00:35:09,140 --> 00:35:11,680
It's really less work than what they are doing.

615
Carolina 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,700
They are so busy.

616
Carolina 00:35:15,540 --> 00:35:18,560
It has been so heavy, their work in general.

617
Carolina 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:20,440
I don't know, after a pandemic,

618
Carolina 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,260
it looks like it's piling up things.

619
Carolina 00:35:25,340 --> 00:35:29,280
So when they ask us for a training, it's like,

620
Carolina 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,780
we're not going to dump more stuff.

621
Carolina 00:35:32,460 --> 00:35:34,400
So then it will be heavier.

622
Carolina 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:36,420
No, it's the opposite.

623
Carolina 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,240
It's how to withdraw from the group the solution,

624
Carolina 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,500
how to facilitate in a way that you were not,

625
Carolina 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:47,480
you don't have the answers.

626
Carolina 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:49,620
You have the questions maybe,

627
Carolina 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,120
or you help the questions going.

628
Carolina 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,580
And sometimes, I don't know, it's amazing.

629
Carolina 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,680
We just need to say, I don't know.

630
Carolina 00:36:00,180 --> 00:36:02,280
And then we figure out, OK,

631
Carolina 00:36:02,340 --> 00:36:06,660
let's go together and figure out the best way for us here.

632
Carolina 00:36:07,100 --> 00:36:08,720
What is the best solution for this?

633
Carolina 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:09,440
I don't know.

634
Carolina 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,420
It's hard for people usually say, I don't know.

635
Carolina 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:13,500
I have to have the solution.

636
Carolina 00:36:13,780 --> 00:36:15,560
I have to give them the solution.

637
Carolina 00:36:15,820 --> 00:36:19,380
I have to, you know, all this mess, I mess.

638
Carolina 00:36:20,060 --> 00:36:23,360
And it's very demanding for people.

639
Fernando 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:24,440
You should shoulder people.

640
Carolina 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,840
Yeah, show their people. [chuckles] You should do this.

641
Carolina 00:36:30,020 --> 00:36:30,700
You should do that.

642
Fernando 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,020
There is a concept that one friend presented us decades

643
Fernando 00:36:35,020 --> 00:36:35,440
ago.

644
Fernando 00:36:35,580 --> 00:36:36,320
It's like a pyramid.

645
Fernando 00:36:37,220 --> 00:36:39,600
So on the top of the pyramid, there is the word change.

646
Fernando 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:41,640
And usually, the clients,

647
Fernando 00:36:42,060 --> 00:36:45,320
they are hiring us for some kind of change, right?

648
Fernando 00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:49,100
We need to go from point A to point B or something like

649
Fernando 00:36:49,100 --> 00:36:49,340
that.

650
Fernando 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,600
And so this pyramid keeps going down.

651
Fernando 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,700
So the middle is understanding.

652
Fernando 00:36:55,820 --> 00:36:58,120
And the base, the very large base, is perception.

653
Fernando 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,220
There is this letter of the way it's if you don't perceive

654
Fernando 00:37:03,220 --> 00:37:06,440
the problem or the need for change, it will never happen.

655
Fernando 00:37:07,100 --> 00:37:08,640
People don't know what they don't know.

656
Fernando 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:14,240
So by the time they know or they have the perception of

657
Fernando 00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:17,640
something, they can't step up to understand that thing.

658
Fernando 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,020
And in our experience, when people,

659
Fernando 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,720
when we open the perception and we understand things,

660
Fernando 00:37:23,900 --> 00:37:26,140
the groups, they naturally come up with solutions.

661
Fernando 00:37:26,140 --> 00:37:28,940
They naturally move to some kind of change.

662
Fernando 00:37:29,380 --> 00:37:30,540
We don't have to force them.

663
Fernando 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,240
So when we present this for clients,

664
Fernando 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,400
we will be working on this base here.

665
Fernando 00:37:35,580 --> 00:37:37,440
So we are talking about this big change here.

666
Fernando 00:37:37,940 --> 00:37:39,300
But you need to go down here.

667
Fernando 00:37:39,860 --> 00:37:42,720
Does your group know about what we are talking here?

668
Fernando 00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:44,960
Say, no, no, we just did an assessment.

669
Fernando 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:46,540
And we have this information.

670
Fernando 00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:50,760
OK, so bring some of these folks to discuss.

671
Fernando 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,840
And then we can design a process together.

672
Fernando 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:57,080
And usually when they come to design an event or workshop

673
Fernando 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,680
or something, they don't know what they are talking about.

674
Fernando 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,980
So it was completely from outside perspective.

675
Fernando 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,820
So we need to connect this inner and outside perspectives

676
Fernando 00:38:09,550 --> 00:38:11,140
to come up with something meaningful.

677
Fernando 00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:13,220
Otherwise, it's a waste of time.

678
Fernando 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,360
And actually, we lost many jobs, right Carolina?,

679
Fernando 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:16,640
doing this.

680
Fernando 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,760
It was kind of usual for us to go to a meeting with a

681
Fernando 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,900
client to discuss a gig or a project.

682
Fernando 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,280
And we end up with nothing because we convinced them that

683
Fernando 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,420
it was not a good idea to stop 300 people to discuss about

684
Fernando 00:38:31,420 --> 00:38:31,720
this.

685
Fernando 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:32,580
Maybe we should discuss just between the 12 leaders. It would be cheaper, quicker. And then you figure out if there is really a need of stopping everybody. And say, yeah, you're right. Let's not do this.

686
Fernando 00:38:44,620 --> 00:38:44,860
Thank you. [They laugh.]

687
Beth 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:45,920
Do yourself out of some work, for the greater good. [They laugh.]

688
Fernando 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:49,240
Yeah, but often they, okay, come back. Now we have the 12 that we need to work with. So this kind of, we are transparent in this way. We are not there to make money or fool people around. We are there to help people make better work.

689
Fernando 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:07,360
So we need to be true to this.

690
Beth 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:08,160
It seems like it's about who are they listening to, too, because sometimes we're hired as consultants and they think they want to listen to us. As you said, people think that we're the ones that have all the answers, but really, we're there to help them listen to each other and know each other better, and then they can find the way.

691
Fernando 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:28,320
Sometimes we need to make hard questions as well. I like the way another mentor of ours, he said, sometimes the consultant needs to be the insultant.

692
Beth 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:37,240
The insultant? [Fernando: Yeah.] Oh, tell me what that means.

693
Fernando 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:40,280
You make harder questions that nobody else will be asking that question because they can be fired. And we don't care being fired. [Beth: Right, yeah.] So we ask sometimes hard questions and the clients say, OK. [chuckles]

694
Beth 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:53,240
Yeah.

695
Fernando 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,660
And then they move to a different state.

696
Beth 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:56,160
How about wicked questions, which came up in our Liberating Structures workshop that we facilitated on Friday, where there's these truths, right? That they're realizing there's sort of more going on than they originally thought.

697
Beth 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:08,960
And they, for example, need to get away from lecturing, but they love it so much because it means they're an expert and it feels really comfortable, but then to also engage the group and sometimes it's both, right?

698
Beth 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:24,100
I don't know. I'm not explaining it very well, but the wicked questions is like not solvable, but just we uncover them for the group, don't we? And help them uncover them for themselves.

699
Fernando 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:34,180
Yeah. How is it that we include everybody giving lectures? [They chuckle.]

700
Carolina 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:40,320
Yeah,

701
Carolina 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:46,720
I think it's that what we need nowadays is to align people

702
Carolina 00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:51,440
because we are running so much and people are so busy that

703
Carolina 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,340
they think they are in tune sometimes, but they are not.

704
Carolina 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:02,080
And I perceived that like a while ago when I started

705
Carolina 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,060
facilitating in English and I was like, oh,

706
Carolina 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:09,020
I need to ask if they are understanding me because it's

707
Carolina 00:41:09,020 --> 00:41:10,040
another language.

708
Carolina 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:10,940
But then when I went to Brazil and I was speaking in Portuguese, my mother tongue, and then I was like, oh, are they understanding me? [She and Beth laugh.] So I have to ask the same question. So then I figured out that it's not a culture or anything.

709
Carolina 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:30,780
It's just like, okay, we need to align our perceptions first. And then we need to understand what we understand as a group, as a collective. And then we can move forward. Otherwise, we're going to go to different places and you think maybe that we are going the same place, but we are not.

710
Beth 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:50,780
[Chuckles] That's a nice example. Well speaking of going places, what's next for you two? I mean, you can tell me what you're hoping for in terms of safe learning environments for the future, but even just your work. What are you hoping for as you go into the next months and years of your practices?

711
Fernando 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:11,180
Yeah, one thing that is happening for us this year, last summer, Henri called us with a request to get the book, the Liberating Structures book published in Portuguese. And we accepted the challenge. Yeah, we end up making a project, getting some sponsors, so the book will be launched in August.

712
Fernando 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,400
[Beth: Oh, that's amazing.

713
Fernando 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:34,980
Congrats.]

714
Fernando 00:42:36,620 --> 00:42:36,620
It's a big buzz. And we put this as our goal for 2024 to spread Liberating Structures in Brazil in every place we can. So we are mixing in-person and virtual events based on Liberating Structures.

715
Fernando 00:42:51,700 --> 00:42:54,400
And that's one thing that we have seen that it's a small

716
Fernando 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,420
contribution with a big impact.

717
Fernando 00:42:58,180 --> 00:43:00,880
So I think it's the little thing that we can do.

718
Fernando 00:43:01,140 --> 00:43:04,520
It's in our hands and now control to spread it and allow

719
Fernando 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,120
people to spread it even further.

720
Fernando 00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:10,360
And it will have a bigger impact because people need to be

721
Fernando 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,040
having better conversations.

722
Fernando 00:43:13,060 --> 00:43:13,120
And we see everywhere people are not equipped to get good conversations in group. So these Liberating Structures you can really teach people quickly and they learn and they they practice and they spread by itself.

723
Fernando 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,280
So we are doing this very intentionally this year.

724
Fernando 00:43:30,780 --> 00:43:31,920
Not sure about 2025.

725
Fernando 00:43:32,940 --> 00:43:35,960
For now, it's been a nice journey.

726
Carolina 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:36,240
And talking about our topic here, so safe learning environment. So I think sometimes it's very broad, how to do it, or sometimes it can be a little bit not so handy, or oh, it's this and that, and how I'm going to read the room, how I'm going to feel the energy, or something like that.

727
Carolina 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:56,520
But if you think about the Liberating Structures as a tool, it will help you to not control and to give to the group autonomy. And just by doing that, you're going to feel how this environment is going to change.

728
Carolina 00:44:14,620 --> 00:44:14,620
And so I think it's a good way to, if you're starting to facilitate and go to this LS as a tool, it'll help you to bring that in your room. So I think it's amazing to work with Liberating Structures.

729
Carolina 00:44:29,740 --> 00:44:29,820
I'm a good fan. [chuckles]

730
Beth 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:34,000
I'm a fan as well.

731
Beth 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,100
And I think this conversation has made me even more of one

732
Beth 00:44:37,100 --> 00:44:39,860
because even though I've been using them for a number of

733
Beth 00:44:39,860 --> 00:44:42,240
years myself and facilitating for longer,

734
Beth 00:44:43,020 --> 00:44:46,460
it feels like there's an entryway to, you know,

735
Beth 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:47,560
I don't want to say the basics,

736
Beth 00:44:47,580 --> 00:44:49,320
but if someone's newer to facilitation,

737
Beth 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,280
there's something there for them in Liberating Structures,

738
Beth 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:52,900
isn't there?

739
Beth 00:44:53,020 --> 00:44:55,300
But then those of us that have been doing it for a while

740
Beth 00:44:55,300 --> 00:44:57,560
and practicing – and we always practice,

741
Beth 00:44:57,660 --> 00:45:00,380
it never ends – but there's something there for us too.

742
Beth 00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:03,140
And even just a couple of the concepts that you've both

743
Beth 00:45:03,140 --> 00:45:06,140
brought forward today, I haven't really heard of,

744
Beth 00:45:06,140 --> 00:45:09,000
like someone say it in that way before.

745
Beth 00:45:09,300 --> 00:45:12,600
And so you've deepened my practice even when, well,

746
Beth 00:45:12,620 --> 00:45:14,680
I never think I know everything, but sometimes you think,

747
Beth 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:15,880
oh, yeah, I've been doing this for a while.

748
Beth 00:45:16,180 --> 00:45:18,140
But no, there's still something else to learn.

749
Beth 00:45:18,140 --> 00:45:20,820
And that's so wonderful about your work and Liberating

750
Beth 00:45:21,180 --> 00:45:21,940
sStructures too.

751
Carolina 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:22,260
Yeah,

752
Carolina 00:45:22,340 --> 00:45:24,480
I think the wonderful thing about Liberating Structures,

753
Carolina 00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:30,220
I had been facilitating groups for more than 25 years,

754
Carolina 00:45:30,220 --> 00:45:34,340
and with Liberating Structures since 2016,

755
Carolina 00:45:34,340 --> 00:45:35,900
and I can feel how my facilitation changed and how myself changed. And in this sense of giving a real autonomy for the group and dealing with this unpredictability and being a group all together in this journey together, you know, you are walking with the group and this is amazing. And not overhelping and everything that we talked today here and I think the Liberating Structures helped me a lot to learn how to be a better facilitator.

756
Fernando 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:14,220
Yeah, and to empower people because the world is so unpredictable nowadays with the climate change and political instability. All these battles happening. Anyway, we need to include more people in perceiving this and bringing suggestions, bringing options so it will not come from one or two.

757
Fernando 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:36,900
It will come from the collective. So how can we invite people for this conversation? So Liberating Structures allows lots of people with no experience in facilitation to start doing this. So this is a hopeful future that I see for Liberating Structures as a really popular method for everybody to just start using and practicing more often.

758
Carolina 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:02,180
And it's open, right? [chuckles] [Beth: That's right. It's very open.] And also, they're like bringing what Henri Lipmanovicz used to say, it's like bringing to the education. This is what I see as a future. If we can see how in education of our kids, if they can include themselves in the learning, it would be so awesome.

759
Beth 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:24,920
It would be...

760
Beth 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:26,800
That's a whole other podcast, Carolina!

761
Carolina 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:28,360
Yes I know, but when you talk about future, I always go to the schools and kids and because of the climate change and everything that is happening in the world, they will be in charge. You know, soon enough, they're going to be in charge and we are going to retire.

762
Carolina 00:47:46,460 --> 00:47:48,100
And so what's going to be?

763
Beth 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:49,380
Yeah, we have to bring them in. [Carolina: Yeah.] Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you two so much. I'm so pleased that I invited you into this podcast, to this conversation. Thanks for sharing with us your knowledge and your deep expertise.

764
Beth 00:48:04,620 --> 00:48:04,700
I know you tend to turn things back to the group, but you do both have deep expertise in this field, and I think we all benefited from it today. Thanks again for being here.

765
Fernando 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:14,320
Thank you, Beth. [Carolina: Thank you, Beth.] Pleasure.

766
Beth 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,400
It was such a pleasure to have Fernando and Carolina on the

767
Beth 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:21,700
show.

768
Beth 00:48:22,140 --> 00:48:24,860
A couple of things that I just wanted to bring to your

769
Beth 00:48:24,860 --> 00:48:25,800
attention again,

770
Beth 00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:29,320
which are still resonating with me after I listened back to

771
Beth 00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:29,920
the conversation.

772
Beth 00:48:30,580 --> 00:48:31,480
There's two of them.

773
Beth 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,800
One is the piece of what they said around not over-helping

774
Beth 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:36,700
in a group.

775
Beth 00:48:36,820 --> 00:48:38,380
And they gave examples around that.

776
Beth 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:39,440
I love that.

777
Beth 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,280
I don't think I've really thought about helping and over

778
Beth 00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,420
-helping and over-helping being dangerous to a group and

779
Beth 00:48:46,420 --> 00:48:49,380
maybe the autonomy of the group or the autonomy of

780
Beth 00:48:49,380 --> 00:48:51,960
individuals with the group like this before.

781
Beth 00:48:52,460 --> 00:48:53,380
So that was a great,

782
Beth 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,060
great concept that they brought forward that helped me in

783
Beth 00:48:56,060 --> 00:48:56,780
my own learning.

784
Beth 00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,160
And I hope you found that valuable as well.

785
Beth 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,700
The other thing was what they were saying about how

786
Beth 00:49:02,700 --> 00:49:04,780
basically when they get in front of a group,

787
Beth 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,220
right off the bat, they say,

788
Beth 00:49:06,660 --> 00:49:11,180
tell us when we are inadequate because really that's a

789
Beth 00:49:11,180 --> 00:49:13,840
chance for the group to know that, hey,

790
Beth 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:15,700
we facilitators are fallible.

791
Beth 00:49:16,060 --> 00:49:17,060
We do make mistakes.

792
Beth 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:18,480
We don't know everything,

793
Beth 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:20,460
especially when we're working across cultures.

794
Beth 00:49:20,700 --> 00:49:24,040
And I love the examples that Carolina and Fernando brought

795
Beth 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,600
up in this about even when they go back to their home

796
Beth 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:28,120
culture,

797
Beth 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,580
they still feel like there are differences there that

798
Beth 00:49:31,580 --> 00:49:32,480
they're learning about.

799
Beth 00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:34,420
But just, yeah,

800
Beth 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,340
keep giving open invitations to groups to say,

801
Beth 00:49:37,700 --> 00:49:39,220
tell me when I'm inadequate.

802
Beth 00:49:39,220 --> 00:49:42,580
I'm assuming I'm going to be inadequate in some way.

803
Beth 00:49:42,900 --> 00:49:46,580
And it's OK to say how that is because we're all in this

804
Beth 00:49:46,580 --> 00:49:49,880
together and we need to know to be able to grow our own

805
Beth 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,400
practice and to do better for future groups.

806
Beth 00:49:52,780 --> 00:49:54,220
So I love that kind of invitation.

807
Beth 00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:57,660
And that was a great teaching of theirs to me and to all of

808
Beth 00:49:57,660 --> 00:49:58,320
us as well.

809
Beth 00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,400
I really want to thank again for Fernando and Carolina for

810
Beth 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,800
coming on the show and sharing their wonderful experience

811
Beth 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:06,920
with all of us.

812
Beth 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,480
On the next episode of the podcast,

813
Beth 00:50:10,780 --> 00:50:12,440
it's a solo one with me.

814
Beth 00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:13,640
In that episode,

815
Beth 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,660
I'm going to share some of the behind the scenes things

816
Beth 00:50:16,660 --> 00:50:20,340
that I went through and did when I wrote my book,

817
Beth 00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,660
Design to Engage: How to Create and Facilitate a Great

818
Beth 00:50:23,660 --> 00:50:24,480
Learning Experience For Any Group.

819
Beth 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:30,000
It's been a few years now and I have that advantage of

820
Beth 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,200
distance to look back on the process and think about what I

821
Beth 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:37,180
did and how it went and what's happened since then after

822
Beth 00:50:37,180 --> 00:50:38,040
publishing a book.

823
Beth 00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:41,860
I'm doing this for you in case you want to write a book in

824
Beth 00:50:41,860 --> 00:50:45,340
the field or you are writing a book in the field right now,

825
Beth 00:50:45,620 --> 00:50:48,720
or maybe you know someone that is interested in writing a

826
Beth 00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:52,020
book in the field of learning design or of facilitation or

827
Beth 00:50:52,020 --> 00:50:56,000
any of the other sub topics within our field or even

828
Beth 00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:56,800
another field.

829
Beth 00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,080
So this next episode is all about the research and the

830
Beth 00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,420
planning and the writing and the publishing processes that

831
Beth 00:51:03,420 --> 00:51:05,720
I went through when I wrote Design to Engage.

832
Beth 00:51:05,720 --> 00:51:07,060
We'll catch you next time.

833
Beth 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,460
Thank you for listening to Facilitating on Purpose.

834
Beth 00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,040
If you were inspired by something in this episode,

835
Beth 00:51:14,220 --> 00:51:17,300
please share it with a friend or a colleague to help them

836
Beth 00:51:17,300 --> 00:51:19,340
expand their facilitation practice too.

837
Beth 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:20,820
To find the show notes,

838
Beth 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,440
give me feedback or submit ideas for future episodes,

839
Beth 00:51:24,860 --> 00:51:29,760
visit facilitatingonpurpose.com Special thanks to Mary Chan

840
Beth 00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,660
at Organized Sound Productions for producing this episode.

841
Beth 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:34,280
Happy facilitating.