Matt: Hello, friends, truth seekers, skeptics, and the quietly curious. Welcome to the Evolving Traditions Podcast, where we have a good hard look at how the traditions passed down through gurus, parents, guides, mentors, and guardians serve us as individuals navigating life on planet Earth today. I am Matt Dictinsky, and today's guest is especially close to home. in fact, she's in the room next door. She's the co-creator of this podcast. also happens to be my wife and the author of Evolving Traditions, Yoga Ethics and Modern Practice, an excellent book which has inspired many of these conversations. Tanaya hello
Tanaya: Hello, darling husband in the room next door.
Matt: Hello. Now, just to let people know a little bit about you, of course I know all of this, you're an accredited yoga therapist, which we'll talk a little bit more about. You're a a yoga teacher of decades of experience, an Ayurvedic lifestyle coach. you're an author. you're the founder of Mind Body Collective Australia. You've spent more than three decades studying and working with the relationship between body, mind, emotion, behavior, health, and healing. you've contributed to the development of yoga therapy in Australia through your service with the Australasian Association of Yoga Therapists and the Oz Active Yoga Therapy Advisory Group. And indeed In 2024, you, Tanayati N, were named as the Oz Active Yoga Therapist of the Year. great congratulations and much deserved. So today
Tanaya: no one else no one else applied, I don't think.
Matt: Awesome. Hey, take the win.
Tanaya: No, I didn't I didn't apply. I was very gratefully nominated by my beautiful editor, Lisa Fabry, who is the editor of Evolving Traditions.
Matt: Okay, fantastic, lovely lady. so today we're gonna talk about your path, the ideas that led to this latest book and the difference between yoga classes and yoga therapy, because for some people, you know, I think most people know about yoga, but yoga therapy might not be something that they've come across as an idea. And why that approach includes more of a focus on the subtle body. and why that might be more relevant than ever in this this crazy modern world we live in. so okay, let's begin where we're gonna begin with every guest. Indeed, we began in the marriage episode, episode one, and in my episode, episode two. So this is episode three in the getting to know Matt and Tanea part of the podcast. So, as we're gonna ask everyone, what's the first tradition, the first piece of wisdom that you remember as a child? that either your parents or someone that you trusted gave to you as a sort of pathway through this world.
Tanaya: Well, in that first episode, I mentioned the first lesson I remember my mum teaching me when I was young, and and that was the a phrase that she used to say all the time, and that was love many, trust a few, and always paddle your own canoe. and
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: I I spoke a little bit about how that statement echoed throughout my life and how that idea absolutely did influence my relationships and
Matt: You're of course a world
Tanaya: Who are
Matt: champion canoeist these days.
Tanaya: I I don't know if I've ever stepped in a canoe.
Matt: Metaphorically.
Tanaya: metaphorical canoe. But what I didn't mention in that episode was a lesson that my dad tried to teach me, but not
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: so successfully. And that was always keep money under the proverbial or metaphorical mattress, which essentially means save your pennies for a rainy day.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya: Yeah.
Matt: Well, I mean, you know, it's funny because we both come from we're both the children of of migrant backgrounds and and my Bubcha, my Polish grandmother, was always there was fifty dollar notes in her Bible. So I guess is that the kind of mindset that you think that your dad had? Or is it a a migrant kind of, you know, we've never had things this good before and maybe that will go in a puff of smoke?
Tanaya: Yeah, for sure. So it definitely came from an old school Italian, and you look, you could say tradition. He was an Italian migrant, what they used to call a boat person,
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: coming to Australia from Italy when he was about 14. That would have been around 1956. and him and his family settled in a little town in in Western Australia called Harvey, the home of Harvey Fresh, Orange Juice and Milk.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya: and dad came from a very small village in Cederno, which is a small coastal town in Calabria. And look, his family's wealth was not financial, it was very much family and culture. And I think for a lot of people, there's this idea that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. So for some, money can become something that you place a lot of value. On when you don't have it growing up. And so to my dad, this was very much the case when he landed in Australia. Now I didn't carry that tradition force of stashing cash under the mattress,
Matt: No.
Tanaya: but to your dismay. But what I did carry force was that dad always wanted to be a lawyer or a writer. I ended up doing an arts degree, not a law degree, to his dismay, but I did end up writing a book or two. But the sad bit is, by the time I actually got the book out, the first book out, Dad was in the throes of dementia. he is still with us, living overseas, and so I never get to see him, and talking with him on the phone can be very challenging. So I haven't had the chance to share that achievement with him, but here I am today, sharing it with you, darling husband, and and whoever
Matt: Yeah.
Tanaya: might be out there listening.
Matt: So yes, I mean, as I said, you know, you've got two books out and indeed a card deck, which is all part of a a universe that you've been working on for a long time now. So well going back to the beginning, how did you find yourself on this path of yoga and I guess sort of Eastern thinking, if that's a fair way of putting it?
Tanaya: that is a rather arduous conversation, but on the topic of the lessons that we inherit, I'm thinking of something that Charles Dickens wrote in Great Expectations. And
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya: I think the line is something along the lines of suffering has been greater than all other teachings. And I think this summarizes really the answer to that question in a very tiny nutshell. I think it's been my own suffering that's led me to the path of yoga, and my own suffering that keeps me coming back. And I think it's my own suffering and the suffering of other humans that I've had the privilege of working with and sharing the ride with. That really compelled me to write the two books. Writing, I think, has become a great means of just trying to make sense of everything, really, to sort through the noise, make sense of things among the constant influx of information. And I think, especially in today's wellness landscape, there's there's so much opinion and and so much advice and And a lot of it can feel really quite dogmatic to say the least.
Matt: Mm mm. Yeah, it's one of the cruel kind of parts of being human, isn't it? That that for us to learn lessons we really have to suffer. Like you don't ever seem to learn anything from the good times. It's only from the the deep pain.
Tanaya: Hmm. Yeah.
Matt: So you talk about the you know, there is a lot of I mean, even as someone like me that doesn't necessarily delve into the world of of wellness and whatnot, I'm very aware through social media and whatnot, just how much conflicting information is out there. it's an area that is swamped with books and and various people doing posts and whatnot. So what compelled you to enter into that world, that heavily saturated world? and to have the energy to finish all of these books.
Tanaya: Yes, well there there are indeed hundreds of, if not thousands, of very insightful yoga books out there. So why write another one? On the path of yoga, I think documenting can be very helpful. It's certainly been that way for me and and for many of the people that I've worked with in one-to-one yoga therapy. writing creates something tangible to return to, something you can revisit, reflect on, In my smaller book on yoga therapy, published early 2025, I share a method I've explored over the years. It's it's a very simple but powerful method, and I call it the kosher evaluation method, and it draws on age-old wisdom. But it's presented through a present-day lens, and I've found it to be very helpful. And it's been quite helpful for the people I've worked with in one-to-one coaching and yoga therapy. And I also include a handful of case studies in this book that illustrate just how effective this very, very simple method can be. So I hope these are helpful.
Matt: Hmm.
Tanaya: And then, of course, in the larger book, and the two books really work beautifully hand in hand, by the way. As you know, along with the many practices that I include in the big book, there's also space for journaling. And I find journaling often proves to be the most revealing. When we look back at our own words, we can see our patterns and our habits more clearly, what's changed, what's new, what's old, what's still relevant. so, but to answer your question though, I did sit on the big book. For around 15 years and I procrastinated a lot during its making. And then, upon the advice of a couple of respected mentors, I ended up extracting the smaller yoga therapy book from the big book to get something out that I could use in my yoga therapy practice sooner rather than later. But in regards to the big book, I figured if I didn't bring the that that full circle soon, that you may well divorce me.
Matt: Yes, I I had started speaking to some of my legal team on that, but so I'm so glad you finished that and we can move on to the next project.
Tanaya: Look, it did eat into a lot of our time and our family time. So I thank you. I I sincerely thank you for granting me the space to finish that without too much moaning and groaning.
Matt: Well, as you know, I had hair when you started the book, so you know, it has taken a while.
Tanaya: Ha ha
Matt: you referred to the the path of yoga. Can you explain to us what you mean by yoga as a as a path and and how that relates to your path?
Tanaya: So the path of yoga, it can be a big can of wonderful worms. There are many lineages, traditions, and ways of exploring this age-old wisdom. And you'll hear dualism, non-dualism, and you'll hear paths like karma yoga, bhakti, jnana, raja. And in different philosophical and religious contexts, yoga means different things to different people. So it could mean a path of spiritual practice. It could mean meditation and concentration, a way of quieting the mind. It could mean ethical discipline, living life according to a particular moral code of conduct. It could mean a means toward liberation, often through practices like discernment, discerning the real from the unreal, the false from the truth, which leads to liberation. But in a Present day sense, liberation can be simply seen as a state of equanimity, the state of calmness, composure, emotional balance. And of course, as everyone is most familiar with nowadays, yoga could be as simple as a series of postures, breath
Matt: Hmm.
Tanaya: techniques, practiced for better holistic health. So obviously, that's what most people are. No yoga, as particularly here in the West. Many yoga classes today, there may be no mention at all of yoga ethics or Brahman, the idea of this unchanging reality or consciousness from which all existence arises. And I think, you know, this exploration of the nature of our minds. how we apply, and indeed how we don't apply these ethical principles to our lives, and this idea of Brahman or God, this sense of divine interconnectedness, this idea of the ultimate infinite reality underlying all existence. I think this is what has always interested me most, and it's a very tri it's a very tricky. realm to explore in a one-hour yoga class that's based on physical postures, or even in workshops,
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya: or even on a retreat for that matter. So I guess that's another reason why I felt the urge to write the two books to get them out there to document my own experience and understanding of these very huge concepts. For a newcomer, all of this can feel Very, very daunting. And even for a seasoned yogi, it can become confusing in a very different way. When methods start to feel very rigid,
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: or when a particular tradition no longer speaks to who you are today, I think it's very important to take a step back and to reassess, to give yourself room to explore possibilities. That ring most true to where you are today. So, what can happen is that people step away from yoga because they get trapped in a framework that no longer fits. And the practice can turn into a box and you can become tunnel visioned, one right way, one right interpretation, one right system. Or on the other side of the fence, so many systems that you get confused and you become. More and more tied up in analysing and deconstructing, and and that really takes you away from yoga's heart. So In my own exploration, I've discovered the importance of granting yoga the space to continually evolve alongside you, to not become attached to a particular system, to a particular ideal, to an inflexible methodology, as what happens when one day these systems fail you? What then?
Matt: Well, there's that Krishna Murti quote, if any system teaches you how to be attentive, then you are attentive to the system and that is not attention. So that's that kind of thinking that you get trapped in a in a framework and all of a sudden that doesn't fit for where you are, which might be different to where you were when you were thirty.
Tanaya: Yes, I am a huge fan of Krishnamurti's teachings. He was a great out-of-the-box thinker and there's a real there's a real sense of freedom in his philosophy. And and I think that particular quote, which is about meditation, is really saying that if we become too tangled up in a technique or a method, our attention is no longer on what the practice is really offering us. Peace, peace with what is. It it becomes less about liberation and more about entanglement in technique. And you you can become so busy trying to perfect a technique that you never quite get to experience the joys to be found within it. Yoga or any spiritual discipline for that matter can then become a competition with yourself rather than an opportunity. To unfold into deeper presence and really ultimately peace. Now I think the irony is that the very methods which can help us develop steadiness, discipline, consistency can also become our greatest blocks. We can Become deeply attached to them. And perhaps that attachment is where the real practice begins the moment that we notice the attachment.
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: Now, methods and frameworks are often essential, especially at the beginning. They give us structure, they help us cultivate discipline, consistency, but at some point. We have to loosen our grip on the system so that real freedom can unfold and that so so so we can continue to evolve.
Matt: I think I think people can relate to that in whatever they might choose to do, you know, playing music or art or whatever it might be. You know, you can be rebellious, but you can only be rebellious once you know what the framework or the method is. You know, by all means break away from that once you've learnt it. But it's important to have that framework to begin with, to to understand the tradition, to understand why those traditions or those techniques were put in place and once you've perfected that, yeah, sure, sure find the the version of it that suits where you want to take it. But but you you know, neither be trapped in that framework, but it's important to have recognized it and to to know it.
Tanaya: Absolutely, that's exactly right. And so yoga, like life, is full of paradox and contradiction.
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: And I think the moment we begin taking ourselves or any system too seriously, life has an artful way of pulling the carpet out from underneath us. Our bodies will fail us. At some point. Our breaths will eventually fail us. Our minds are constantly failing us with projections, stories, false memories, or at least memories that conveniently align with our own prejudices and belief systems. So I think the one framework in yoga that I've found consistently helpful to remain. in relationship with and I use the word relationship rather than attachment. Is the Yamas and Niyamas, the first two
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: limbs of yoga's Eightfold Path. And so for anyone unfamiliar with them, you know, because I I know we might have people listening to this podcast that are not yoga people, which I love, I love that we're having these conversations about so many different subjects and and hopefully learning more about. subjects that many of us don't know much about. So anyone
Matt: Well, I'd I'd never heard of them before I I met you. So it's it's yamas and nyamas.
Tanaya: Yamas and Niyamas. So these are ten ethical precepts drawn from the Yoga Sutras, and they really form the foundation of yoga. In a modern language, they include practices like kindness, truthfulness, moderation, self-discipline, self-study, and so on. And when I say I have an ongoing relationship with these precepts, I certainly don't mean That I've mastered them by any means. It's an ongoing work in progress. And sometimes I live them well, and other times I I can clearly see that I've still got a lot of work to do. And that's part of the teaching too. We don't even hold these principles too tightly. This is the yama of a padigraha, non-clinging, non-grasping. And these precepts teach us. How to live, how to think, how to act, but they also teach us not to become possessive of the teachings themselves. And what I love about these precepts are that they're practices that really follow us everywhere we go, into every relationship, into every decision, into every moment of every day. And so on that Point of not getting too attached to any one system. In the book, in the big book, I don't only draw from the yogic texts, I also refer to Taoist and Buddhist teachings because so often they're pointing to the same thing in a different language. And I'll give you an example in the Tao De Qing. Lao Tzu offers his own beautiful expression of the Yama of a Parigraha and this practice of non-grasping or holding too tightly. And he says, in the pursuit of knowledge, every day something is added. In the pursuit of the way, every day something is let go. So Yes, for me the yogic path comes down to peeling away complexity, rigidity, not placing so much importance on all of these complicated practices and really bringing it back to the simplicity of simple virtues. How are we conducting ourselves in the world? How are we with others? How are we with ourselves? In our own minds.
Matt: Hm, like a you know, a version of the Ten Commandments. But rather than commandments, they're kind of like questions, like, you know, reflections on, you know, was I kind today? Was I was I my best self today? And if I wasn't, you know, hopefully I can be my best self tomorrow. That sort of thing. I n
Tanaya: Yeah. Yeah. for sure.
Matt: Now there's a whole section on the yamas and the nyamas in your book. So how does your approach differ from other books th out there on on the yamas and nyamas?
Tanaya: So part three of the big book is entitled Yamas, Niamas, The Correlating Chakras and Other Themes. And this section brings the Yamas and Niyamas out of the philosophical realm and into a lived experience. Rather than treating them merely as ethical guidelines, I explore here how these principles may play out in our physical and our subtle body. So, over the past 30 years or so of personal practice and study, my interest has really been the relationship between the mind and the body, how our thoughts, emotions, beliefs, and habits expressed through the physiology of the body. And the more I've explored yoga's ethical principles, the more I've become aware of how these ethical practices Land in the body and land in our lives in general. These teachings are often presented as philosophical or moral foundations for yoga, which they certainly are. But in my experience, they also have a direct relationship with our nervous system, with emotional patterns, with physical experience. In our body and in the world. And just as each of the seven chakras is associated with particular aspects of consciousness, each yama and niyama carries a distinct physical and energetic focus. And I'm not claiming here that the classical texts prescribe a fixed chakra to ethical principle match. rather, this is a contemporary therapeutic framework that I've explored and found to be very helpful in practice. For example, the first Yama, ahimsa, or non-violence. In my experience, it has a very clear relationship with the heart center, Anahata, so when we're compassionate. When we reside in what you might call heart consciousness, nonviolence becomes a natural result of that. So many people may hear the term non-violence and immediately place themselves in the category of: I have this one covered, I'm not a violent person. But violence is not limited to physical harm. It appears in the sharpness of our speech. In habitual judgment, in the stories that we repeat about ourselves, in the ways that we dismiss another person's experience, or in the pressure that we place on our own bodies to perform. So Paramahamsa Hadihadananda from the Kriya Yoga lineage said your tongue is more dangerous than a gun. It can a gun can kill a person in one shot, but a hurtful word will keep giving pain again and again. And our words can indeed wound, so so can our thoughts, particularly the private thoughts that turn us against ourselves and against others. So to live these yamas and niyamas is, in my opinion, really advanced yoga. Physical practice. can be challenging, but living life with sustained honesty, compassion that's Florence scratching at the door. yeah, to live life with with compassion. Should I let her in?
Matt: Yes, I think you could. Before she does violence on the door.
Tanaya: she is gonna be Florence, come in. Okay, she did just barge through that door.
Matt: I know, and now she'll scratch on my door.
Tanaya: so where was I? Sit down, darling.
Matt: Well, you know, this is this is a this is a good lesson
Tanaya: Yeah. Yeah, so you know what I was what I was wanting to say is that the chapter on the heart, so I have various chapters in the book on on various chakras. And so the chapter on the heart center, where you'll find the yama of ahimsa, non-violence or simple kindness, it doesn't just explore how we can be less violent. it's really an exploration of kindness in all its forms through love, through forgiveness, through gratitude, and through the various layers of ourself, our body, our breaths, our emotions, our mind. we might work with heart-opening postures, breath practices, mudras, mantra, as well as just exploring different ways of bringing simple acts of kindness. into our daily life. Like this.
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: Like Florence needing attention. That's all she wanted, some attention.
Matt: That's she wants. Yeah, fair enough. So So For people like me, some of these traditions and practices can feel very intimidating, perhaps. so let me shine a light on on your book. And of course let's just see it one more time because it's such a great cover, Evolving Traditions, Yoga, Ethics and Modern Practice. And So I have some wonderful endorsements for the book from people who know far more about this subject matter than I do. So please allow me to read these out because they're fantastic. from the international teacher and author Nashalla Joy Devi. Have I said that correctly?
Tanaya: Nishula Joy Devi. And and I hope Nishila,
Matt: Nisha Joy Davy.
Tanaya: if you're listening, Nishula has been a great guiding light along the way on my path.
Matt: wonderful. Well, she says that your book, Evolving Traditions, offers us a treasure trove of essential teachings. What a blessing to have all this knowledge presented in one great tome, available to all who wish to tread the glorious path of yoga, an essential addition to any yoga library. That's a pretty good endorsement. from the international teacher, anatomy expert and author of several books on yoga, Bernie Clark. I won't ask if I've said that correctly because I'm pretty confident with that one. And he said, Evolving traditions reflect Taneya's long engagement with yoga as a living practice. Rather than focusing solely on postures, she explores how the ethical and philosophical dimensions of yoga can be brought into everyday life. Students looking to broaden their understanding of yoga beyond the physical will find much here to ponder and integrate into their practice and life. And I can understand why you would love that endorsement because that to me really does sum up many of the things that you said you wanted to achieve with the book. Would that be true?
Tanaya: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Matt: Yeah. And the world famous monk and abbot at the Buddhist Society of WA, Arjan Brahm, is that how I say his name?
Tanaya: Say Ajahn Brahm.
Matt: Ajan Brahm, who I've heard talk a n a number of times too, and he is a beautiful man, absolutely beautiful man. and he said, This book is excellent. Taneya is our yoga teacher at Dharmaloka, the Buddhist Society of WA, here in Perth. She knows what she's talking about. In this book, Tanaya shows there are many similarities between yoga and the teachings of the Buddha. Yoga is like Buddhism in that they both teach us kindness or what I like to call kindfulness, making peace, being kind and being gentle with our mind and our body. Yoga and Buddhism both share this. So they're beautiful thoughts from people who, as I say, know their stuff. So you should be very proud of yourself to receive those.
Tanaya: Yeah, those three teachers in particular have been a very big part of my journey in ways that I'm sure they're not even aware of. anatomy is my least favourite subject, and Bernie Clark's wisdom on the physical body has been huge over the years, and I I think I have every single one of his books here in my library. and there's much to say about. Nishula Joy Devi, the way that she presents the yogic teachings, the way she interprets the Yoga Sutras, very much resonates. She's she is very focused on heart consciousness in her work, and this is pretty much where I'm at in mine. This idea of yoga being as simple as. Consciousness residing in the heart. And as you know, with Ajahn Brahm, he has a very similar focus when he shares the Buddhist teachings. He speaks about kindfulness, and in my experience, that shifts mindfulness out of the head and into the heart. And he's been a huge influence in my life over the past 20 years, over that. Time, the Dharma Loka Buddhist Center here in Perth has been a real refuge for me. And so it feels quite meaningful now to be able to give something back. and for those here in Perth, I do teach from time to time at the Dharma Loka Buddhist Center. the yoga is free, and you can find the timetable of events on the Buddhist society's website which is BSWA dot org.
Matt: Yeah, it's lovely that you do those free classes 'cause I know a lot of people are doing it tough at the moment and yeah, it's it's nice that you not nice that you give back 'cause I know you want to do it. it's a labor of love for you. and you know, talking about doing it tough and and obstacles, I know there's been lots of obstacles for you, in your journey, which I guess truly gives your book and how you teach great substance. 'cause your book's not just another yoga book professing to have all the answers, 'cause you very openly say that you don't have all the answers, which I love about you. I mean it's really an invitation, isn't it, for anyone who reads it to hopefully, you know, demystify yoga and and, gain from it both physically and spiritually in a modern way, in a way that a layman like me can can appreciate.
Tanaya: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Matt: Yeah. So you had two editors assisting you throughout the process, Lisa Fabri, who's in San Francisco, and Karen Peridon Alaga, is that correct? Based here in in Perth.
Tanaya: Yeah.
Matt: although she is a bit of a global citizen too, this is Karen. And then you had one scholarly consultant, Daniel Simpson, who's based in the UK and is associated with the Oxford Center of Hindu Studies at SOAS University.
Tanaya: Yeah, so Lisa and Karen were very, very patient throughout the process and very, very generous with their time. Karen from Red Feather Publishing, she had the painstaking job of proofreading 150,000 words. And of course, Lisa Fabry, being the main editor, not only read 150,000 words in a rather short Shortish space of time, but she played a very integral part in the final stages of bringing the book
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: to life. and Daniel Simpson, when I reached out to him for support with the big book, I said to him, I consider you to be one of the yoga police. So it was a true honour when he agreed to provide some consulting along the way.
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: Now the book is broken up into four parts, and Daniel really provided guidance through parts one, two, and four of the book, where I reference various source texts. But part three, which is really the largest part of the book, is not really something. that any yoga police person could assist with as it's really my personal approach
Matt: Hmm.
Tanaya: to practice. so Daniel didn't have a look in with part three at all.
Matt: So, I mean, obviously we we're talking about the the big book there, but there is another book. There is a smaller book. It's a book on yoga therapy. And when I first heard the term yoga therapy, I guess I just thought it's what yoga teachers did. But you know, now obviously, being married to you and seeing you going through the various processes, I now realise how much extra study and time goes into becoming a yoga therapist. So for people who aren't aware, what what is the difference between yoga therapy and a sort of run of the mill yoga class, for example?
Tanaya: To put it very simply, yoga therapy, yoga chikitsa, involves personalized assessment and tailored practice. So it recognises that we have many layers to the human self, not merely the physical body. So in turn, it doesn't work solely with the physical body. Now to be able to do this. You're going to need quite a bit more training than a one-month yoga teacher training. Even the 500-hour yoga teacher training spread over a long period of time really just scrapes the surface of what we do in yoga therapy. So instead of working with symptoms, which you can absolutely do in a yoga class setting, you know, you can go to yoga and you know, a sort of therapeutic-based yoga class and work on, you know, alleviate your back. Pain or alleviate your menopausal symptoms or whatnot. Yoga therapy aims to identify and address the underlying causes of imbalances and you know, through not only yoga postures and breathing techniques, but through various lifestyle adjustments. So, in order for me to do what I do in a yoga therapy setting and remain within my scope of Practice, I've had to go out and invest in thousands of hours and thousands of dollars, many additional years of training beyond that initial 500-hour yoga teacher training in both yoga therapy and Ayurveda. So this research into yoga and other wisdom traditions that I share in these two books has really unfolded. Over several decades, and it's it's taken me a while to arrive at a place where I'm really comfortable sharing the framework that I share in these books. So, what I'm offering here, it won't be for everyone, and that's absolutely A-OK. Different strokes for different folks, different courses for different horses, but with the many people that I've had the privilege of working with, I've been fortunate enough to witness how this work can transform lives and sometimes dramatically. And sometimes through a subtle shift in perspective that might just start the wheels turning towards positive change. Now, I don't believe that there's a single right way. What really matters is finding something that we can return to consistently in whatever form it takes, because it's that consistency. That creates the lasting change. And for that change to be positive and sustainable, mental flexibility is the most important kind of flexibility. So physical flexibility, contrary to popular belief, isn't a requirement for yoga. Not this kind of yoga in any case. Mental flexibility, though, and the ability to meet ourselves and our circumstances. with equanimity is both part of the practice and one of the gifts that comes from a steady practice over a decent period of time.
Matt: Yeah, I'm I'm sure we've all met people who use physical activity as a way of avoiding meeting themselves mentally, you know, so finding that union between the two is is obviously what you're talking about. So who who benefits from the wisdom in these books? who's it for?
Tanaya: So the yoga therapy book is really for anyone that's interested in pursuing a course of yoga therapy, or anyone curious to know how yoga therapy works and why it can be such an an effective form of treatment for all sorts of conditions. It may also be helpful for upcoming yoga therapists who are interested to learn more about the framework that I use in my own practice. And also yoga teachers who might be considering extending their skill set into the field of yoga chakitsa, yoga as therapy. So the big book, Evolving Traditions, is really for anyone who might be seeking more of a toolbox for life. And I share many of the practices and philosophies that have helped me to heal and grow. throughout the bumps and grinds of my own life.
Matt: So the the price of the book, but get down to the nitty gritty, eighty nine dollars for the paperback, And and you know, it's hard, isn't it? I know that we we had lots of talks about trying to arrive at a price of you know, valuing yourself and valuing the incredible amount of work, five hundred pages worth of value and yet making it accessible to people in tough times. We've paid both of us have paid more for for books before. So you know, it didn't necessarily shock me, that amount of money. But how do you come up with a price point? And like you've had to delve into, not just writing the book but dealing with the online publishing world and getting it printed. I mean, is that just a minefield?
Tanaya: Well, as Nishula Joy Davy always says, the yoga is free, but the electricity is not. And so
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya: in order to make a few dollars to cover my costs, I've needed to sell it at $89 for the paperback. And printing costs, just to be very transparent, printing costs are around $50 on Amazon.
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: And then Amazon puts a markup. On top of that, also. And so I actually get a couple of dollars per book sale. Let's just
Matt: Wow.
Tanaya: say that I'm not in it for the money, but
Matt: No.
Tanaya: it would be nice to be able to pay some of the bills. It's no easy feat surviving as a teacher
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: and a therapist in Yoga L especially when the training that we invest in and that the energy. That we pour into the work, it doesn't quite match the remuneration.
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: There's this idea out there in the wellness world that anything of a spiritual nature should be free, or it may be priced like a cup of tea. And you know, that's lovely in theory, but only if we live in a world where the community fed and housed its artisans and yogis. but as it stands, that world. is more fantasy than reality and the bills remain very much real. So yes, sadly at this stage the big book has a big price. I've gifted many copies but until Amazon reduces its markup I'm stuck unfortunately at that price point with online sales. But in saying that for people that are living in Australia I've managed to source a beautiful little Family run printing business here in Perth and they've managed to be very competitive on printing costs. So for anyone in Oz who would like a copy of the book and would like to support local, you can find the links on the Mind Body Collective website to get a locally sourced copy, and that's mindbodycollective.com.au.
Matt: Which we'll put in the description notes of this episode as well. I think that's what professional podcast people say. I'm sure I've heard that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tanaya: we better do that then. we will put as many links as we can humanly possibly fit in there.
Matt: Yes, yes. Okay, so let's let's think about how this journey began and where it is now and the wisdom that's in the book. If you if you could go back and not to erase the life that you've lived, but to meet your younger self with the knowledge that you have now, and the knowledge that indeed you share in the books, would you do anything differently? Would you What are the main pieces of wisdom that you wish you had access to when you were younger?
Tanaya: I would be much more equanimous. I'd remind myself often that this too shall pass. So be grateful for whatever is passing through, as there's wisdom to be found in every situation, even when there's pain, the wisdom. That we might get from that might be patience, it might be tolerance, it might be courage, those virtues that serve us well at the best and worst of times. I'd definitely laugh more. I'd place much less weight on things in the grand scheme of things. We are merely specks of stardust in the macrocosm. And there is, there's one more really important thing, and that is that I would be much kinder, much earlier on in my life, like through those tough teen years, kinder to myself first and foremost. And I'd make more of an effort to be more present, which ironically involves much less effort. Presence,
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: presence is well, you know, presence is to be in the Tao, in the heart of yoga, it's a space of no preference, just complete, just absorption in whatever is, whatever
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: is there.
Matt: Well, you've you've
Tanaya: Whatever is before you.
Matt: you've written a whole chapter, haven't you, on presence in evolving traditions. And you know, why don't we start and of course it's one of those things that you know, everyone of course people are so familiar with all of these things. We've heard many of these things as w as we go through life. The idea of, you know, the past is The past is full of regret and the future's full of fear and it's just about being in the present moment. But it's it's so much harder to put into practice than it it sounds like it should be. but we'll start winding up with a little a read from the book, and I'll share this snippet because it is from a chapter on presence. and let me let me get into my best reading voice.
Tanaya: Love to hear that read by your Dulcet Tones.
Matt: Okay. So this is presence, harnessing the potential of now. The present moment is not always a gentle, sweet offering. For some it unfolds softly, touched by beauty and ease, for others it crashes in uninvited, loud with uncertainty, grief, or survival. Yet whether tender or turbulent, it remains the only place life is actually lived, not in memory, not in anticipation, but here. In the sacred now. To open the present does not mean approving of everything that is happening. It is not to deny injustice, pain, or longing. It is simply to acknowledge with clarity this is what is here. Within even the most fractured circumstances, something is still unfolding, breath moving in and out, choices being made, small acts of courage taking shape. Awakening to the present moment may not always take the form of ease. Sometimes it may look like endurance. Sometimes it may look like love persisting under pressure. In a world humming with distraction, many of us drift from the rawness of the now. We disappear into glowing screens, endless scrolling, imagined futures, and conversations replayed or rehearsed in our minds. Yet distraction is not always shallow or careless. Often it is protective, a refuge the mind constructs when the present feels too heavy to hold. The mind wanders with purpose. We reach for noise, busyness, consumerism, or digital immersion, not simply out of habit, but because stillness has a way of revealing what quietly aches beneath the surface. Sometimes we numb ourselves not from indifference, but because the moment feels too heavy. Too uncertain or too overwhelming to meet without armor. The term human being seems almost nostalgic now, a relic from a time when simply being was enough. Many of us have been shaped into human doings, tirelessly producing, performing, and striving, complicating our lives until we fracture under the weight of expectations we have been conditioned to believe are our own. We have forgotten the art of simply being, mistaking motion for meaning, and in the process we have. Losing touch with the simplicity of presence. Without presence the mind easily wanders into barren inner landscapes, either tethered to the past or carried away by anxiety over an uncertain future. Saying yes to now does not mean resignation or surrendering our personal agency. It means meeting reality before reacting to it. It means allowing the truth of a moment to register in the body and heart. Sometimes that yes sounds beautiful. Sometimes it sounds like yes, this hurts. Yes, this is not what I wanted. Yes, I am struggling. Meeting ourselves honestly in these moments can be an act of quiet strength. It's not about pretending to be unbreakable or having the answers, but about refusing to turn away in the midst of difficulty, uncovering insight in our suffering. And beauty amid the ruins. It's no coincidence that in war films there is a scene where a soldier pauses to notice a single flower blooming in no man's land, or where the relentless roar of gunfire is briefly replaced by the delicate song of a bird nesting in the rubble. In these fleeting moments we are reminded that our humanity and our bond with the natural world persist even in the heart of disaster. In that moment of honest reckoning, we reclaim a piece of our humanity and may find the resilience to keep going even when it feels impossible. When devastation closes in, sometimes all we can do is offer what little remains, given with whatever strength or tenderness we still hold. Presence does not require us to welcome suffering, instead it invites us to face the truth of what is unfolding and to recognise what is still possible. It calls us to meet each moment with as much compassion and courage as we can muster. at the time of writing this, I found myself in far from ideal circumstances. My family and I were homeless, staying with a friend amid a housing crisis. I was no longer in contact with my father, a wound I had been grappling with for some time, and my mum was in a fragile state in and out of hospital, her body bearing the imprint of time and the trials it had endured. It became clear she would have to leave the independent living she loved and move into a nursing home, a transition carrying its own quiet grief. I felt helpless. As I typed these words, I was in a world of hurt, questioning how I could sincerely write about presents when the present was the last place I wanted to be. To navigate that dark stretch, I leaned on the mantra minutes not months, a piece of wisdom from my favorite local monk, Ajam Brahm. In the thick of uncertainty it became a quiet lifeline,
Tanaya: In the
Matt: Gently steering my attention back to the minute in front of me rather than the vast, unknowable stretch ahead. repeating a phrase or mantra that resonates, especially in the moments when we may feel close to giving up, can anchor us in presence again and again. In times of real crisis, A moment to moment spiritual practice, whatever form it takes for you, is not just a source of comfort, but a practical tool for survival. It may not erase the hardship, but it can carve out small pockets of peace, helping us to meet each moment as it arrives rather than being swept away by fear or despair. In the Yoga Sutras, Patanjali tells us the pain which is yet to come can be avoided. This teaching suggests that by applying the tools of yoga consistently in the present, we can soften or even prevent future suffering. The practices and stages of the eight-limbed path are remarkably adaptable, meeting us exactly where we are and inviting humility and presence. Should pain become overwhelming, should it feel impossible to move, breathe, or even sit in meditation? The yogic path guides us back to basics, not towards complexity, but towards foundation, the yamas and the nyamas and simple tools like mantra, prayer, breathwork, or mudra. These are not abstract ideals, they are practical anchors guiding us back to the present one breath at a time. Very good, very well written.
Tanaya: Now, what's your voiceover fee for turning the whole five hundred and twenty-two pages into an audiobook?
Matt: I'll do it I'll do it for nine ninety nine. Anyway, you have to get in touch with RGM, my agents for that, rgm dot com dot au.
Tanaya: Thank you. That that was beautifully read. Thank you.
Matt: Okay. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. now I've got two more questions for you and then we'll call it a day. What advice would you give someone starting out in the big wide world of yoga in terms of, you know, where to begin?
Tanaya: Well, I've actually written a chapter in the big book on that exact thing, where to begin with present-day yoga practice. So do have a read of that. But in the meantime, I would say most importantly, clarify your intentions from the get-go. It's very easy to drift into wellness trends or even spiritual paths without a clear sense of what you're truly seeking. In that state, we can spend thousands of dollars and hours chasing a kind of panacea when what we truly need may be much simpler. Without clarity, it's very easy to wander through the very vast and often uncharted world of wellness and be led astray. But I think when you take time to clarify. What lies at the heart of my deepest desire, the Japanese say ikai, the French say raison d'être, and there of course is sankalpa, where you live with purpose, with intention. So what is that intention? Is it peace? Is it holistic well-being? Is it joy? Is it love? I think when you know what your intention is, you naturally start to attract the right teachers, the right mentors, the right guides, and more importantly, you place yourself on a path that leads you toward what truly matters. Another thing I would say, and this may be controversial to some, but I would say where possible. Limit your time on social media, or at least don't be swayed by what you might find out there. And of course, there's there's the helpful and there's the not so helpful in everything, but there's also a great deal of mud in the minefield of yoga. you know, looking at and engaging in social media, you know, that doom scrolling, it takes us. Into the part of the mind that yoga wants us to disconnect from, the part of the mind that we really want to quieten in practice. So I'd say, you know, find a local yoga community that that resonates and connect with real humans in real time. And also find more than just one great teacher. You know, a handful of knowledgeable teachers, in my experience, is very helpful in helping you to pave your own path, to go within yourself and to cultivate self-governance, Svatantra, which is really one of the goals of yoga therapy. And of course, if you can find a good yoga therapist in your area. Try one-to-one yoga therapy before you choose a particular style of yoga. This can be a huge help in really laying a solid foundation for practice and helping you to discover a style of practice or a path that will be most beneficial for you, as unique as you are.
Matt: So the final question we are ask we are going to ask all of our guests, how how would you like to see yoga and yoga therapy evolve in the future?
Tanaya: I would love to see more yoga therapists being employed by hospitals, medical
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: centres, wellness centres. It would be of such benefit to communities at a time when health care and while it can it can feel more like wealth care, the pharmaceutical biz seems to be thriving, yet many people are not. necessarily getting better in lasting ways. You know, we're often prescribed medications and treatments and quick fixes, many of which can create additional issues over time. And don't get me wrong, I'm not poo-pooing Western medicine. It's invaluable, especially you know, in acute and emergency care. But increasingly I see it being used, you know, as more and more Of a crutch rather than a comprehensive system of getting better, of healing, you know, one that could be greatly strengthened by integrating preventative, holistic approaches like yoga therapy. And so on that, I'd love to see greater awareness of the distinction. between yoga in general and yoga therapy, and and there's a clear and important difference, one that I write about in my book on yoga therapy. And while I can't speak for every country, here in Australia it's very evident that the people at the top of the food chain, the the decision making food chain, don't quite understand what yoga therapy is. And a timely example of this is the upcoming National Census on Tuesday, the 11th of August.
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: To my knowledge, the Australian Bureau of Statistics still doesn't differentiate between a yoga therapist and a yoga teacher. And I hope I'm wrong, and this is in the process of being updated because the difference is significant.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya: So, with greater awareness and clearer distinctions, yoga therapy has huge potential to become a recognized part of healthcare.
Matt: Yeah yeah. Well my dear, what do you have coming up for anyone who might like to delve into your work a little deeper? I mean, we didn't mention that you're also a civil celebrant. I think you've got a wedding or two coming up soon, haven't you?
Tanaya: I have, I have, thank you, Matt, for mentioning. yes, I am indeed available to officiate your marriage and also for one-to-one yoga therapy. so yes, we'll leave some links in the show notes, including some information for our great Southern Renewal Retreat that we're hosting in Denmark WA. in April next year, the 15th to the 20th of April, which falls right in the middle of the school holidays. And we don't usually do our retreats in the middle of the school holidays. We usually go around but there's been a request from some return retreat goers that it would be easier for them to have it in the school holidays. So so be it. Ask and thou shalt receive. And we still have spaces left on that. The chalets do usually fill up pretty quickly. So if anyone would like more info on that, please do email your interest to connect at mindbodycollective.com. dot au
Matt: nearly everything can be found at mindbodycollective dot com dot au, right?
Tanaya: Yeah, all of my bits and bobs can be found on that website for
Matt: Yeah.
Tanaya: sure.
Matt: Well, thank you, my dear. thank you for sharing your offerings with the the world. and until next time, respect the roots, welcome the growth, be reverent, be curious, and occasionally check whether the rules still make sense. Goodbye for now.
Tanaya: Thank you,
Tanaya: Hello, darling husband in the room next door.
Matt: Hello. Now, just to let people know a little bit about you, of course I know all of this, you're an accredited yoga therapist, which we'll talk a little bit more about. You're a a yoga teacher of decades of experience, an Ayurvedic lifestyle coach. you're an author. you're the founder of Mind Body Collective Australia. You've spent more than three decades studying and working with the relationship between body, mind, emotion, behavior, health, and healing. you've contributed to the development of yoga therapy in Australia through your service with the Australasian Association of Yoga Therapists and the Oz Active Yoga Therapy Advisory Group. And indeed In 2024, you, Tanayati N, were named as the Oz Active Yoga Therapist of the Year. great congratulations and much deserved. So today
Tanaya: no one else no one else applied, I don't think.
Matt: Awesome. Hey, take the win.
Tanaya: No, I didn't I didn't apply. I was very gratefully nominated by my beautiful editor, Lisa Fabry, who is the editor of Evolving Traditions.
Matt: Okay, fantastic, lovely lady. so today we're gonna talk about your path, the ideas that led to this latest book and the difference between yoga classes and yoga therapy, because for some people, you know, I think most people know about yoga, but yoga therapy might not be something that they've come across as an idea. And why that approach includes more of a focus on the subtle body. and why that might be more relevant than ever in this this crazy modern world we live in. so okay, let's begin where we're gonna begin with every guest. Indeed, we began in the marriage episode, episode one, and in my episode, episode two. So this is episode three in the getting to know Matt and Tanea part of the podcast. So, as we're gonna ask everyone, what's the first tradition, the first piece of wisdom that you remember as a child? that either your parents or someone that you trusted gave to you as a sort of pathway through this world.
Tanaya: Well, in that first episode, I mentioned the first lesson I remember my mum teaching me when I was young, and and that was the a phrase that she used to say all the time, and that was love many, trust a few, and always paddle your own canoe. and
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: I I spoke a little bit about how that statement echoed throughout my life and how that idea absolutely did influence my relationships and
Matt: You're of course a world
Tanaya: Who are
Matt: champion canoeist these days.
Tanaya: I I don't know if I've ever stepped in a canoe.
Matt: Metaphorically.
Tanaya: metaphorical canoe. But what I didn't mention in that episode was a lesson that my dad tried to teach me, but not
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: so successfully. And that was always keep money under the proverbial or metaphorical mattress, which essentially means save your pennies for a rainy day.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya: Yeah.
Matt: Well, I mean, you know, it's funny because we both come from we're both the children of of migrant backgrounds and and my Bubcha, my Polish grandmother, was always there was fifty dollar notes in her Bible. So I guess is that the kind of mindset that you think that your dad had? Or is it a a migrant kind of, you know, we've never had things this good before and maybe that will go in a puff of smoke?
Tanaya: Yeah, for sure. So it definitely came from an old school Italian, and you look, you could say tradition. He was an Italian migrant, what they used to call a boat person,
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: coming to Australia from Italy when he was about 14. That would have been around 1956. and him and his family settled in a little town in in Western Australia called Harvey, the home of Harvey Fresh, Orange Juice and Milk.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya: and dad came from a very small village in Cederno, which is a small coastal town in Calabria. And look, his family's wealth was not financial, it was very much family and culture. And I think for a lot of people, there's this idea that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. So for some, money can become something that you place a lot of value. On when you don't have it growing up. And so to my dad, this was very much the case when he landed in Australia. Now I didn't carry that tradition force of stashing cash under the mattress,
Matt: No.
Tanaya: but to your dismay. But what I did carry force was that dad always wanted to be a lawyer or a writer. I ended up doing an arts degree, not a law degree, to his dismay, but I did end up writing a book or two. But the sad bit is, by the time I actually got the book out, the first book out, Dad was in the throes of dementia. he is still with us, living overseas, and so I never get to see him, and talking with him on the phone can be very challenging. So I haven't had the chance to share that achievement with him, but here I am today, sharing it with you, darling husband, and and whoever
Matt: Yeah.
Tanaya: might be out there listening.
Matt: So yes, I mean, as I said, you know, you've got two books out and indeed a card deck, which is all part of a a universe that you've been working on for a long time now. So well going back to the beginning, how did you find yourself on this path of yoga and I guess sort of Eastern thinking, if that's a fair way of putting it?
Tanaya: that is a rather arduous conversation, but on the topic of the lessons that we inherit, I'm thinking of something that Charles Dickens wrote in Great Expectations. And
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya: I think the line is something along the lines of suffering has been greater than all other teachings. And I think this summarizes really the answer to that question in a very tiny nutshell. I think it's been my own suffering that's led me to the path of yoga, and my own suffering that keeps me coming back. And I think it's my own suffering and the suffering of other humans that I've had the privilege of working with and sharing the ride with. That really compelled me to write the two books. Writing, I think, has become a great means of just trying to make sense of everything, really, to sort through the noise, make sense of things among the constant influx of information. And I think, especially in today's wellness landscape, there's there's so much opinion and and so much advice and And a lot of it can feel really quite dogmatic to say the least.
Matt: Mm mm. Yeah, it's one of the cruel kind of parts of being human, isn't it? That that for us to learn lessons we really have to suffer. Like you don't ever seem to learn anything from the good times. It's only from the the deep pain.
Tanaya: Hmm. Yeah.
Matt: So you talk about the you know, there is a lot of I mean, even as someone like me that doesn't necessarily delve into the world of of wellness and whatnot, I'm very aware through social media and whatnot, just how much conflicting information is out there. it's an area that is swamped with books and and various people doing posts and whatnot. So what compelled you to enter into that world, that heavily saturated world? and to have the energy to finish all of these books.
Tanaya: Yes, well there there are indeed hundreds of, if not thousands, of very insightful yoga books out there. So why write another one? On the path of yoga, I think documenting can be very helpful. It's certainly been that way for me and and for many of the people that I've worked with in one-to-one yoga therapy. writing creates something tangible to return to, something you can revisit, reflect on, In my smaller book on yoga therapy, published early 2025, I share a method I've explored over the years. It's it's a very simple but powerful method, and I call it the kosher evaluation method, and it draws on age-old wisdom. But it's presented through a present-day lens, and I've found it to be very helpful. And it's been quite helpful for the people I've worked with in one-to-one coaching and yoga therapy. And I also include a handful of case studies in this book that illustrate just how effective this very, very simple method can be. So I hope these are helpful.
Matt: Hmm.
Tanaya: And then, of course, in the larger book, and the two books really work beautifully hand in hand, by the way. As you know, along with the many practices that I include in the big book, there's also space for journaling. And I find journaling often proves to be the most revealing. When we look back at our own words, we can see our patterns and our habits more clearly, what's changed, what's new, what's old, what's still relevant. so, but to answer your question though, I did sit on the big book. For around 15 years and I procrastinated a lot during its making. And then, upon the advice of a couple of respected mentors, I ended up extracting the smaller yoga therapy book from the big book to get something out that I could use in my yoga therapy practice sooner rather than later. But in regards to the big book, I figured if I didn't bring the that that full circle soon, that you may well divorce me.
Matt: Yes, I I had started speaking to some of my legal team on that, but so I'm so glad you finished that and we can move on to the next project.
Tanaya: Look, it did eat into a lot of our time and our family time. So I thank you. I I sincerely thank you for granting me the space to finish that without too much moaning and groaning.
Matt: Well, as you know, I had hair when you started the book, so you know, it has taken a while.
Tanaya: Ha ha
Matt: you referred to the the path of yoga. Can you explain to us what you mean by yoga as a as a path and and how that relates to your path?
Tanaya: So the path of yoga, it can be a big can of wonderful worms. There are many lineages, traditions, and ways of exploring this age-old wisdom. And you'll hear dualism, non-dualism, and you'll hear paths like karma yoga, bhakti, jnana, raja. And in different philosophical and religious contexts, yoga means different things to different people. So it could mean a path of spiritual practice. It could mean meditation and concentration, a way of quieting the mind. It could mean ethical discipline, living life according to a particular moral code of conduct. It could mean a means toward liberation, often through practices like discernment, discerning the real from the unreal, the false from the truth, which leads to liberation. But in a Present day sense, liberation can be simply seen as a state of equanimity, the state of calmness, composure, emotional balance. And of course, as everyone is most familiar with nowadays, yoga could be as simple as a series of postures, breath
Matt: Hmm.
Tanaya: techniques, practiced for better holistic health. So obviously, that's what most people are. No yoga, as particularly here in the West. Many yoga classes today, there may be no mention at all of yoga ethics or Brahman, the idea of this unchanging reality or consciousness from which all existence arises. And I think, you know, this exploration of the nature of our minds. how we apply, and indeed how we don't apply these ethical principles to our lives, and this idea of Brahman or God, this sense of divine interconnectedness, this idea of the ultimate infinite reality underlying all existence. I think this is what has always interested me most, and it's a very tri it's a very tricky. realm to explore in a one-hour yoga class that's based on physical postures, or even in workshops,
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya: or even on a retreat for that matter. So I guess that's another reason why I felt the urge to write the two books to get them out there to document my own experience and understanding of these very huge concepts. For a newcomer, all of this can feel Very, very daunting. And even for a seasoned yogi, it can become confusing in a very different way. When methods start to feel very rigid,
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: or when a particular tradition no longer speaks to who you are today, I think it's very important to take a step back and to reassess, to give yourself room to explore possibilities. That ring most true to where you are today. So, what can happen is that people step away from yoga because they get trapped in a framework that no longer fits. And the practice can turn into a box and you can become tunnel visioned, one right way, one right interpretation, one right system. Or on the other side of the fence, so many systems that you get confused and you become. More and more tied up in analysing and deconstructing, and and that really takes you away from yoga's heart. So In my own exploration, I've discovered the importance of granting yoga the space to continually evolve alongside you, to not become attached to a particular system, to a particular ideal, to an inflexible methodology, as what happens when one day these systems fail you? What then?
Matt: Well, there's that Krishna Murti quote, if any system teaches you how to be attentive, then you are attentive to the system and that is not attention. So that's that kind of thinking that you get trapped in a in a framework and all of a sudden that doesn't fit for where you are, which might be different to where you were when you were thirty.
Tanaya: Yes, I am a huge fan of Krishnamurti's teachings. He was a great out-of-the-box thinker and there's a real there's a real sense of freedom in his philosophy. And and I think that particular quote, which is about meditation, is really saying that if we become too tangled up in a technique or a method, our attention is no longer on what the practice is really offering us. Peace, peace with what is. It it becomes less about liberation and more about entanglement in technique. And you you can become so busy trying to perfect a technique that you never quite get to experience the joys to be found within it. Yoga or any spiritual discipline for that matter can then become a competition with yourself rather than an opportunity. To unfold into deeper presence and really ultimately peace. Now I think the irony is that the very methods which can help us develop steadiness, discipline, consistency can also become our greatest blocks. We can Become deeply attached to them. And perhaps that attachment is where the real practice begins the moment that we notice the attachment.
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: Now, methods and frameworks are often essential, especially at the beginning. They give us structure, they help us cultivate discipline, consistency, but at some point. We have to loosen our grip on the system so that real freedom can unfold and that so so so we can continue to evolve.
Matt: I think I think people can relate to that in whatever they might choose to do, you know, playing music or art or whatever it might be. You know, you can be rebellious, but you can only be rebellious once you know what the framework or the method is. You know, by all means break away from that once you've learnt it. But it's important to have that framework to begin with, to to understand the tradition, to understand why those traditions or those techniques were put in place and once you've perfected that, yeah, sure, sure find the the version of it that suits where you want to take it. But but you you know, neither be trapped in that framework, but it's important to have recognized it and to to know it.
Tanaya: Absolutely, that's exactly right. And so yoga, like life, is full of paradox and contradiction.
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: And I think the moment we begin taking ourselves or any system too seriously, life has an artful way of pulling the carpet out from underneath us. Our bodies will fail us. At some point. Our breaths will eventually fail us. Our minds are constantly failing us with projections, stories, false memories, or at least memories that conveniently align with our own prejudices and belief systems. So I think the one framework in yoga that I've found consistently helpful to remain. in relationship with and I use the word relationship rather than attachment. Is the Yamas and Niyamas, the first two
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: limbs of yoga's Eightfold Path. And so for anyone unfamiliar with them, you know, because I I know we might have people listening to this podcast that are not yoga people, which I love, I love that we're having these conversations about so many different subjects and and hopefully learning more about. subjects that many of us don't know much about. So anyone
Matt: Well, I'd I'd never heard of them before I I met you. So it's it's yamas and nyamas.
Tanaya: Yamas and Niyamas. So these are ten ethical precepts drawn from the Yoga Sutras, and they really form the foundation of yoga. In a modern language, they include practices like kindness, truthfulness, moderation, self-discipline, self-study, and so on. And when I say I have an ongoing relationship with these precepts, I certainly don't mean That I've mastered them by any means. It's an ongoing work in progress. And sometimes I live them well, and other times I I can clearly see that I've still got a lot of work to do. And that's part of the teaching too. We don't even hold these principles too tightly. This is the yama of a padigraha, non-clinging, non-grasping. And these precepts teach us. How to live, how to think, how to act, but they also teach us not to become possessive of the teachings themselves. And what I love about these precepts are that they're practices that really follow us everywhere we go, into every relationship, into every decision, into every moment of every day. And so on that Point of not getting too attached to any one system. In the book, in the big book, I don't only draw from the yogic texts, I also refer to Taoist and Buddhist teachings because so often they're pointing to the same thing in a different language. And I'll give you an example in the Tao De Qing. Lao Tzu offers his own beautiful expression of the Yama of a Parigraha and this practice of non-grasping or holding too tightly. And he says, in the pursuit of knowledge, every day something is added. In the pursuit of the way, every day something is let go. So Yes, for me the yogic path comes down to peeling away complexity, rigidity, not placing so much importance on all of these complicated practices and really bringing it back to the simplicity of simple virtues. How are we conducting ourselves in the world? How are we with others? How are we with ourselves? In our own minds.
Matt: Hm, like a you know, a version of the Ten Commandments. But rather than commandments, they're kind of like questions, like, you know, reflections on, you know, was I kind today? Was I was I my best self today? And if I wasn't, you know, hopefully I can be my best self tomorrow. That sort of thing. I n
Tanaya: Yeah. Yeah. for sure.
Matt: Now there's a whole section on the yamas and the nyamas in your book. So how does your approach differ from other books th out there on on the yamas and nyamas?
Tanaya: So part three of the big book is entitled Yamas, Niamas, The Correlating Chakras and Other Themes. And this section brings the Yamas and Niyamas out of the philosophical realm and into a lived experience. Rather than treating them merely as ethical guidelines, I explore here how these principles may play out in our physical and our subtle body. So, over the past 30 years or so of personal practice and study, my interest has really been the relationship between the mind and the body, how our thoughts, emotions, beliefs, and habits expressed through the physiology of the body. And the more I've explored yoga's ethical principles, the more I've become aware of how these ethical practices Land in the body and land in our lives in general. These teachings are often presented as philosophical or moral foundations for yoga, which they certainly are. But in my experience, they also have a direct relationship with our nervous system, with emotional patterns, with physical experience. In our body and in the world. And just as each of the seven chakras is associated with particular aspects of consciousness, each yama and niyama carries a distinct physical and energetic focus. And I'm not claiming here that the classical texts prescribe a fixed chakra to ethical principle match. rather, this is a contemporary therapeutic framework that I've explored and found to be very helpful in practice. For example, the first Yama, ahimsa, or non-violence. In my experience, it has a very clear relationship with the heart center, Anahata, so when we're compassionate. When we reside in what you might call heart consciousness, nonviolence becomes a natural result of that. So many people may hear the term non-violence and immediately place themselves in the category of: I have this one covered, I'm not a violent person. But violence is not limited to physical harm. It appears in the sharpness of our speech. In habitual judgment, in the stories that we repeat about ourselves, in the ways that we dismiss another person's experience, or in the pressure that we place on our own bodies to perform. So Paramahamsa Hadihadananda from the Kriya Yoga lineage said your tongue is more dangerous than a gun. It can a gun can kill a person in one shot, but a hurtful word will keep giving pain again and again. And our words can indeed wound, so so can our thoughts, particularly the private thoughts that turn us against ourselves and against others. So to live these yamas and niyamas is, in my opinion, really advanced yoga. Physical practice. can be challenging, but living life with sustained honesty, compassion that's Florence scratching at the door. yeah, to live life with with compassion. Should I let her in?
Matt: Yes, I think you could. Before she does violence on the door.
Tanaya: she is gonna be Florence, come in. Okay, she did just barge through that door.
Matt: I know, and now she'll scratch on my door.
Tanaya: so where was I? Sit down, darling.
Matt: Well, you know, this is this is a this is a good lesson
Tanaya: Yeah. Yeah, so you know what I was what I was wanting to say is that the chapter on the heart, so I have various chapters in the book on on various chakras. And so the chapter on the heart center, where you'll find the yama of ahimsa, non-violence or simple kindness, it doesn't just explore how we can be less violent. it's really an exploration of kindness in all its forms through love, through forgiveness, through gratitude, and through the various layers of ourself, our body, our breaths, our emotions, our mind. we might work with heart-opening postures, breath practices, mudras, mantra, as well as just exploring different ways of bringing simple acts of kindness. into our daily life. Like this.
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: Like Florence needing attention. That's all she wanted, some attention.
Matt: That's she wants. Yeah, fair enough. So So For people like me, some of these traditions and practices can feel very intimidating, perhaps. so let me shine a light on on your book. And of course let's just see it one more time because it's such a great cover, Evolving Traditions, Yoga, Ethics and Modern Practice. And So I have some wonderful endorsements for the book from people who know far more about this subject matter than I do. So please allow me to read these out because they're fantastic. from the international teacher and author Nashalla Joy Devi. Have I said that correctly?
Tanaya: Nishula Joy Devi. And and I hope Nishila,
Matt: Nisha Joy Davy.
Tanaya: if you're listening, Nishula has been a great guiding light along the way on my path.
Matt: wonderful. Well, she says that your book, Evolving Traditions, offers us a treasure trove of essential teachings. What a blessing to have all this knowledge presented in one great tome, available to all who wish to tread the glorious path of yoga, an essential addition to any yoga library. That's a pretty good endorsement. from the international teacher, anatomy expert and author of several books on yoga, Bernie Clark. I won't ask if I've said that correctly because I'm pretty confident with that one. And he said, Evolving traditions reflect Taneya's long engagement with yoga as a living practice. Rather than focusing solely on postures, she explores how the ethical and philosophical dimensions of yoga can be brought into everyday life. Students looking to broaden their understanding of yoga beyond the physical will find much here to ponder and integrate into their practice and life. And I can understand why you would love that endorsement because that to me really does sum up many of the things that you said you wanted to achieve with the book. Would that be true?
Tanaya: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Matt: Yeah. And the world famous monk and abbot at the Buddhist Society of WA, Arjan Brahm, is that how I say his name?
Tanaya: Say Ajahn Brahm.
Matt: Ajan Brahm, who I've heard talk a n a number of times too, and he is a beautiful man, absolutely beautiful man. and he said, This book is excellent. Taneya is our yoga teacher at Dharmaloka, the Buddhist Society of WA, here in Perth. She knows what she's talking about. In this book, Tanaya shows there are many similarities between yoga and the teachings of the Buddha. Yoga is like Buddhism in that they both teach us kindness or what I like to call kindfulness, making peace, being kind and being gentle with our mind and our body. Yoga and Buddhism both share this. So they're beautiful thoughts from people who, as I say, know their stuff. So you should be very proud of yourself to receive those.
Tanaya: Yeah, those three teachers in particular have been a very big part of my journey in ways that I'm sure they're not even aware of. anatomy is my least favourite subject, and Bernie Clark's wisdom on the physical body has been huge over the years, and I I think I have every single one of his books here in my library. and there's much to say about. Nishula Joy Devi, the way that she presents the yogic teachings, the way she interprets the Yoga Sutras, very much resonates. She's she is very focused on heart consciousness in her work, and this is pretty much where I'm at in mine. This idea of yoga being as simple as. Consciousness residing in the heart. And as you know, with Ajahn Brahm, he has a very similar focus when he shares the Buddhist teachings. He speaks about kindfulness, and in my experience, that shifts mindfulness out of the head and into the heart. And he's been a huge influence in my life over the past 20 years, over that. Time, the Dharma Loka Buddhist Center here in Perth has been a real refuge for me. And so it feels quite meaningful now to be able to give something back. and for those here in Perth, I do teach from time to time at the Dharma Loka Buddhist Center. the yoga is free, and you can find the timetable of events on the Buddhist society's website which is BSWA dot org.
Matt: Yeah, it's lovely that you do those free classes 'cause I know a lot of people are doing it tough at the moment and yeah, it's it's nice that you not nice that you give back 'cause I know you want to do it. it's a labor of love for you. and you know, talking about doing it tough and and obstacles, I know there's been lots of obstacles for you, in your journey, which I guess truly gives your book and how you teach great substance. 'cause your book's not just another yoga book professing to have all the answers, 'cause you very openly say that you don't have all the answers, which I love about you. I mean it's really an invitation, isn't it, for anyone who reads it to hopefully, you know, demystify yoga and and, gain from it both physically and spiritually in a modern way, in a way that a layman like me can can appreciate.
Tanaya: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Matt: Yeah. So you had two editors assisting you throughout the process, Lisa Fabri, who's in San Francisco, and Karen Peridon Alaga, is that correct? Based here in in Perth.
Tanaya: Yeah.
Matt: although she is a bit of a global citizen too, this is Karen. And then you had one scholarly consultant, Daniel Simpson, who's based in the UK and is associated with the Oxford Center of Hindu Studies at SOAS University.
Tanaya: Yeah, so Lisa and Karen were very, very patient throughout the process and very, very generous with their time. Karen from Red Feather Publishing, she had the painstaking job of proofreading 150,000 words. And of course, Lisa Fabry, being the main editor, not only read 150,000 words in a rather short Shortish space of time, but she played a very integral part in the final stages of bringing the book
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: to life. and Daniel Simpson, when I reached out to him for support with the big book, I said to him, I consider you to be one of the yoga police. So it was a true honour when he agreed to provide some consulting along the way.
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: Now the book is broken up into four parts, and Daniel really provided guidance through parts one, two, and four of the book, where I reference various source texts. But part three, which is really the largest part of the book, is not really something. that any yoga police person could assist with as it's really my personal approach
Matt: Hmm.
Tanaya: to practice. so Daniel didn't have a look in with part three at all.
Matt: So, I mean, obviously we we're talking about the the big book there, but there is another book. There is a smaller book. It's a book on yoga therapy. And when I first heard the term yoga therapy, I guess I just thought it's what yoga teachers did. But you know, now obviously, being married to you and seeing you going through the various processes, I now realise how much extra study and time goes into becoming a yoga therapist. So for people who aren't aware, what what is the difference between yoga therapy and a sort of run of the mill yoga class, for example?
Tanaya: To put it very simply, yoga therapy, yoga chikitsa, involves personalized assessment and tailored practice. So it recognises that we have many layers to the human self, not merely the physical body. So in turn, it doesn't work solely with the physical body. Now to be able to do this. You're going to need quite a bit more training than a one-month yoga teacher training. Even the 500-hour yoga teacher training spread over a long period of time really just scrapes the surface of what we do in yoga therapy. So instead of working with symptoms, which you can absolutely do in a yoga class setting, you know, you can go to yoga and you know, a sort of therapeutic-based yoga class and work on, you know, alleviate your back. Pain or alleviate your menopausal symptoms or whatnot. Yoga therapy aims to identify and address the underlying causes of imbalances and you know, through not only yoga postures and breathing techniques, but through various lifestyle adjustments. So, in order for me to do what I do in a yoga therapy setting and remain within my scope of Practice, I've had to go out and invest in thousands of hours and thousands of dollars, many additional years of training beyond that initial 500-hour yoga teacher training in both yoga therapy and Ayurveda. So this research into yoga and other wisdom traditions that I share in these two books has really unfolded. Over several decades, and it's it's taken me a while to arrive at a place where I'm really comfortable sharing the framework that I share in these books. So, what I'm offering here, it won't be for everyone, and that's absolutely A-OK. Different strokes for different folks, different courses for different horses, but with the many people that I've had the privilege of working with, I've been fortunate enough to witness how this work can transform lives and sometimes dramatically. And sometimes through a subtle shift in perspective that might just start the wheels turning towards positive change. Now, I don't believe that there's a single right way. What really matters is finding something that we can return to consistently in whatever form it takes, because it's that consistency. That creates the lasting change. And for that change to be positive and sustainable, mental flexibility is the most important kind of flexibility. So physical flexibility, contrary to popular belief, isn't a requirement for yoga. Not this kind of yoga in any case. Mental flexibility, though, and the ability to meet ourselves and our circumstances. with equanimity is both part of the practice and one of the gifts that comes from a steady practice over a decent period of time.
Matt: Yeah, I'm I'm sure we've all met people who use physical activity as a way of avoiding meeting themselves mentally, you know, so finding that union between the two is is obviously what you're talking about. So who who benefits from the wisdom in these books? who's it for?
Tanaya: So the yoga therapy book is really for anyone that's interested in pursuing a course of yoga therapy, or anyone curious to know how yoga therapy works and why it can be such an an effective form of treatment for all sorts of conditions. It may also be helpful for upcoming yoga therapists who are interested to learn more about the framework that I use in my own practice. And also yoga teachers who might be considering extending their skill set into the field of yoga chakitsa, yoga as therapy. So the big book, Evolving Traditions, is really for anyone who might be seeking more of a toolbox for life. And I share many of the practices and philosophies that have helped me to heal and grow. throughout the bumps and grinds of my own life.
Matt: So the the price of the book, but get down to the nitty gritty, eighty nine dollars for the paperback, And and you know, it's hard, isn't it? I know that we we had lots of talks about trying to arrive at a price of you know, valuing yourself and valuing the incredible amount of work, five hundred pages worth of value and yet making it accessible to people in tough times. We've paid both of us have paid more for for books before. So you know, it didn't necessarily shock me, that amount of money. But how do you come up with a price point? And like you've had to delve into, not just writing the book but dealing with the online publishing world and getting it printed. I mean, is that just a minefield?
Tanaya: Well, as Nishula Joy Davy always says, the yoga is free, but the electricity is not. And so
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya: in order to make a few dollars to cover my costs, I've needed to sell it at $89 for the paperback. And printing costs, just to be very transparent, printing costs are around $50 on Amazon.
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: And then Amazon puts a markup. On top of that, also. And so I actually get a couple of dollars per book sale. Let's just
Matt: Wow.
Tanaya: say that I'm not in it for the money, but
Matt: No.
Tanaya: it would be nice to be able to pay some of the bills. It's no easy feat surviving as a teacher
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: and a therapist in Yoga L especially when the training that we invest in and that the energy. That we pour into the work, it doesn't quite match the remuneration.
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: There's this idea out there in the wellness world that anything of a spiritual nature should be free, or it may be priced like a cup of tea. And you know, that's lovely in theory, but only if we live in a world where the community fed and housed its artisans and yogis. but as it stands, that world. is more fantasy than reality and the bills remain very much real. So yes, sadly at this stage the big book has a big price. I've gifted many copies but until Amazon reduces its markup I'm stuck unfortunately at that price point with online sales. But in saying that for people that are living in Australia I've managed to source a beautiful little Family run printing business here in Perth and they've managed to be very competitive on printing costs. So for anyone in Oz who would like a copy of the book and would like to support local, you can find the links on the Mind Body Collective website to get a locally sourced copy, and that's mindbodycollective.com.au.
Matt: Which we'll put in the description notes of this episode as well. I think that's what professional podcast people say. I'm sure I've heard that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tanaya: we better do that then. we will put as many links as we can humanly possibly fit in there.
Matt: Yes, yes. Okay, so let's let's think about how this journey began and where it is now and the wisdom that's in the book. If you if you could go back and not to erase the life that you've lived, but to meet your younger self with the knowledge that you have now, and the knowledge that indeed you share in the books, would you do anything differently? Would you What are the main pieces of wisdom that you wish you had access to when you were younger?
Tanaya: I would be much more equanimous. I'd remind myself often that this too shall pass. So be grateful for whatever is passing through, as there's wisdom to be found in every situation, even when there's pain, the wisdom. That we might get from that might be patience, it might be tolerance, it might be courage, those virtues that serve us well at the best and worst of times. I'd definitely laugh more. I'd place much less weight on things in the grand scheme of things. We are merely specks of stardust in the macrocosm. And there is, there's one more really important thing, and that is that I would be much kinder, much earlier on in my life, like through those tough teen years, kinder to myself first and foremost. And I'd make more of an effort to be more present, which ironically involves much less effort. Presence,
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: presence is well, you know, presence is to be in the Tao, in the heart of yoga, it's a space of no preference, just complete, just absorption in whatever is, whatever
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: is there.
Matt: Well, you've you've
Tanaya: Whatever is before you.
Matt: you've written a whole chapter, haven't you, on presence in evolving traditions. And you know, why don't we start and of course it's one of those things that you know, everyone of course people are so familiar with all of these things. We've heard many of these things as w as we go through life. The idea of, you know, the past is The past is full of regret and the future's full of fear and it's just about being in the present moment. But it's it's so much harder to put into practice than it it sounds like it should be. but we'll start winding up with a little a read from the book, and I'll share this snippet because it is from a chapter on presence. and let me let me get into my best reading voice.
Tanaya: Love to hear that read by your Dulcet Tones.
Matt: Okay. So this is presence, harnessing the potential of now. The present moment is not always a gentle, sweet offering. For some it unfolds softly, touched by beauty and ease, for others it crashes in uninvited, loud with uncertainty, grief, or survival. Yet whether tender or turbulent, it remains the only place life is actually lived, not in memory, not in anticipation, but here. In the sacred now. To open the present does not mean approving of everything that is happening. It is not to deny injustice, pain, or longing. It is simply to acknowledge with clarity this is what is here. Within even the most fractured circumstances, something is still unfolding, breath moving in and out, choices being made, small acts of courage taking shape. Awakening to the present moment may not always take the form of ease. Sometimes it may look like endurance. Sometimes it may look like love persisting under pressure. In a world humming with distraction, many of us drift from the rawness of the now. We disappear into glowing screens, endless scrolling, imagined futures, and conversations replayed or rehearsed in our minds. Yet distraction is not always shallow or careless. Often it is protective, a refuge the mind constructs when the present feels too heavy to hold. The mind wanders with purpose. We reach for noise, busyness, consumerism, or digital immersion, not simply out of habit, but because stillness has a way of revealing what quietly aches beneath the surface. Sometimes we numb ourselves not from indifference, but because the moment feels too heavy. Too uncertain or too overwhelming to meet without armor. The term human being seems almost nostalgic now, a relic from a time when simply being was enough. Many of us have been shaped into human doings, tirelessly producing, performing, and striving, complicating our lives until we fracture under the weight of expectations we have been conditioned to believe are our own. We have forgotten the art of simply being, mistaking motion for meaning, and in the process we have. Losing touch with the simplicity of presence. Without presence the mind easily wanders into barren inner landscapes, either tethered to the past or carried away by anxiety over an uncertain future. Saying yes to now does not mean resignation or surrendering our personal agency. It means meeting reality before reacting to it. It means allowing the truth of a moment to register in the body and heart. Sometimes that yes sounds beautiful. Sometimes it sounds like yes, this hurts. Yes, this is not what I wanted. Yes, I am struggling. Meeting ourselves honestly in these moments can be an act of quiet strength. It's not about pretending to be unbreakable or having the answers, but about refusing to turn away in the midst of difficulty, uncovering insight in our suffering. And beauty amid the ruins. It's no coincidence that in war films there is a scene where a soldier pauses to notice a single flower blooming in no man's land, or where the relentless roar of gunfire is briefly replaced by the delicate song of a bird nesting in the rubble. In these fleeting moments we are reminded that our humanity and our bond with the natural world persist even in the heart of disaster. In that moment of honest reckoning, we reclaim a piece of our humanity and may find the resilience to keep going even when it feels impossible. When devastation closes in, sometimes all we can do is offer what little remains, given with whatever strength or tenderness we still hold. Presence does not require us to welcome suffering, instead it invites us to face the truth of what is unfolding and to recognise what is still possible. It calls us to meet each moment with as much compassion and courage as we can muster. at the time of writing this, I found myself in far from ideal circumstances. My family and I were homeless, staying with a friend amid a housing crisis. I was no longer in contact with my father, a wound I had been grappling with for some time, and my mum was in a fragile state in and out of hospital, her body bearing the imprint of time and the trials it had endured. It became clear she would have to leave the independent living she loved and move into a nursing home, a transition carrying its own quiet grief. I felt helpless. As I typed these words, I was in a world of hurt, questioning how I could sincerely write about presents when the present was the last place I wanted to be. To navigate that dark stretch, I leaned on the mantra minutes not months, a piece of wisdom from my favorite local monk, Ajam Brahm. In the thick of uncertainty it became a quiet lifeline,
Tanaya: In the
Matt: Gently steering my attention back to the minute in front of me rather than the vast, unknowable stretch ahead. repeating a phrase or mantra that resonates, especially in the moments when we may feel close to giving up, can anchor us in presence again and again. In times of real crisis, A moment to moment spiritual practice, whatever form it takes for you, is not just a source of comfort, but a practical tool for survival. It may not erase the hardship, but it can carve out small pockets of peace, helping us to meet each moment as it arrives rather than being swept away by fear or despair. In the Yoga Sutras, Patanjali tells us the pain which is yet to come can be avoided. This teaching suggests that by applying the tools of yoga consistently in the present, we can soften or even prevent future suffering. The practices and stages of the eight-limbed path are remarkably adaptable, meeting us exactly where we are and inviting humility and presence. Should pain become overwhelming, should it feel impossible to move, breathe, or even sit in meditation? The yogic path guides us back to basics, not towards complexity, but towards foundation, the yamas and the nyamas and simple tools like mantra, prayer, breathwork, or mudra. These are not abstract ideals, they are practical anchors guiding us back to the present one breath at a time. Very good, very well written.
Tanaya: Now, what's your voiceover fee for turning the whole five hundred and twenty-two pages into an audiobook?
Matt: I'll do it I'll do it for nine ninety nine. Anyway, you have to get in touch with RGM, my agents for that, rgm dot com dot au.
Tanaya: Thank you. That that was beautifully read. Thank you.
Matt: Okay. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. now I've got two more questions for you and then we'll call it a day. What advice would you give someone starting out in the big wide world of yoga in terms of, you know, where to begin?
Tanaya: Well, I've actually written a chapter in the big book on that exact thing, where to begin with present-day yoga practice. So do have a read of that. But in the meantime, I would say most importantly, clarify your intentions from the get-go. It's very easy to drift into wellness trends or even spiritual paths without a clear sense of what you're truly seeking. In that state, we can spend thousands of dollars and hours chasing a kind of panacea when what we truly need may be much simpler. Without clarity, it's very easy to wander through the very vast and often uncharted world of wellness and be led astray. But I think when you take time to clarify. What lies at the heart of my deepest desire, the Japanese say ikai, the French say raison d'être, and there of course is sankalpa, where you live with purpose, with intention. So what is that intention? Is it peace? Is it holistic well-being? Is it joy? Is it love? I think when you know what your intention is, you naturally start to attract the right teachers, the right mentors, the right guides, and more importantly, you place yourself on a path that leads you toward what truly matters. Another thing I would say, and this may be controversial to some, but I would say where possible. Limit your time on social media, or at least don't be swayed by what you might find out there. And of course, there's there's the helpful and there's the not so helpful in everything, but there's also a great deal of mud in the minefield of yoga. you know, looking at and engaging in social media, you know, that doom scrolling, it takes us. Into the part of the mind that yoga wants us to disconnect from, the part of the mind that we really want to quieten in practice. So I'd say, you know, find a local yoga community that that resonates and connect with real humans in real time. And also find more than just one great teacher. You know, a handful of knowledgeable teachers, in my experience, is very helpful in helping you to pave your own path, to go within yourself and to cultivate self-governance, Svatantra, which is really one of the goals of yoga therapy. And of course, if you can find a good yoga therapist in your area. Try one-to-one yoga therapy before you choose a particular style of yoga. This can be a huge help in really laying a solid foundation for practice and helping you to discover a style of practice or a path that will be most beneficial for you, as unique as you are.
Matt: So the final question we are ask we are going to ask all of our guests, how how would you like to see yoga and yoga therapy evolve in the future?
Tanaya: I would love to see more yoga therapists being employed by hospitals, medical
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: centres, wellness centres. It would be of such benefit to communities at a time when health care and while it can it can feel more like wealth care, the pharmaceutical biz seems to be thriving, yet many people are not. necessarily getting better in lasting ways. You know, we're often prescribed medications and treatments and quick fixes, many of which can create additional issues over time. And don't get me wrong, I'm not poo-pooing Western medicine. It's invaluable, especially you know, in acute and emergency care. But increasingly I see it being used, you know, as more and more Of a crutch rather than a comprehensive system of getting better, of healing, you know, one that could be greatly strengthened by integrating preventative, holistic approaches like yoga therapy. And so on that, I'd love to see greater awareness of the distinction. between yoga in general and yoga therapy, and and there's a clear and important difference, one that I write about in my book on yoga therapy. And while I can't speak for every country, here in Australia it's very evident that the people at the top of the food chain, the the decision making food chain, don't quite understand what yoga therapy is. And a timely example of this is the upcoming National Census on Tuesday, the 11th of August.
Matt: Mm.
Tanaya: To my knowledge, the Australian Bureau of Statistics still doesn't differentiate between a yoga therapist and a yoga teacher. And I hope I'm wrong, and this is in the process of being updated because the difference is significant.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya: So, with greater awareness and clearer distinctions, yoga therapy has huge potential to become a recognized part of healthcare.
Matt: Yeah yeah. Well my dear, what do you have coming up for anyone who might like to delve into your work a little deeper? I mean, we didn't mention that you're also a civil celebrant. I think you've got a wedding or two coming up soon, haven't you?
Tanaya: I have, I have, thank you, Matt, for mentioning. yes, I am indeed available to officiate your marriage and also for one-to-one yoga therapy. so yes, we'll leave some links in the show notes, including some information for our great Southern Renewal Retreat that we're hosting in Denmark WA. in April next year, the 15th to the 20th of April, which falls right in the middle of the school holidays. And we don't usually do our retreats in the middle of the school holidays. We usually go around but there's been a request from some return retreat goers that it would be easier for them to have it in the school holidays. So so be it. Ask and thou shalt receive. And we still have spaces left on that. The chalets do usually fill up pretty quickly. So if anyone would like more info on that, please do email your interest to connect at mindbodycollective.com. dot au
Matt: nearly everything can be found at mindbodycollective dot com dot au, right?
Tanaya: Yeah, all of my bits and bobs can be found on that website for
Matt: Yeah.
Tanaya: sure.
Matt: Well, thank you, my dear. thank you for sharing your offerings with the the world. and until next time, respect the roots, welcome the growth, be reverent, be curious, and occasionally check whether the rules still make sense. Goodbye for now.
Tanaya: Thank you,
