00:00:00
Speaker 1: Barbara Edmonds, Labour's finance spokesperson, is with us. Hello, Barbara. Hello. Why are you guys suddenly losing?
00:00:07
Speaker 2: Well, I think different polls show different numbers, right? Today, or was it yesterday, there was one where we were ahead, and then one last night where we were behind. The main thing for us is we have to fight for every vote. And I've never taken it for granted, particularly as a local electorate MP, and you have to fight every time for it. So For us, we are focused on the things that New Zealanders are saying that matter to them. It's cost of living, it's jobs, it's access to health care. But ultimately, New Zealand will decide on November the 7th. And for us, really big push in the last couple of days to get people enrolled to vote.
00:00:41
Speaker 1: Can I say, though, you have ended up on the wrong side or in two debates where you are on the wrong side. So crime because of the mongrel mob and education. Would you accept that?
00:00:52
Speaker 2: So crime... because of what the Greens and Te Pāti Māori, and again, Chippy's been really clear, doesn't condone that, doesn't support it at all. And in relation to education, we should have been clearer in our comments around that one hour reading maths writing. That's, you know, we're not scrapping that, but we're giving teachers more discretion around when they do that during the day.
00:01:12
Speaker 1: Okay, have you, because last week when we were talking to you about it, you said you weren't going to change anything about it. And then not even an hour later, we had Hipkins, your leader, on the debate saying this.
00:01:22
Speaker 2: You'll reverse what the government has mandated. We've said that we're.
00:01:27
Speaker 1: Going to give the schools the flexibility to teach what kids need to be taught. OK, so you're on here telling me that the teachers have enough flexibility, you're happy with it, but he's on there going there's not enough flexibility, we're going to change it. So what is it?
00:01:37
Speaker 2: So, again, it's leaving it to the experts who are in the room with the children around what period, what time parts of the day, whether they teach it during play, whether they teach it as part of PE.
00:01:48
Speaker 1: But that's what it is now.
00:01:50
Speaker 2: So the main thing is just making sure they have that flexibility and being really.
00:01:53
Speaker 1: Clear on that. But they do because that's what it is now.
00:01:55
Speaker 2: And that's why we're not scrapping it.
00:01:57
Speaker 1: But then why is he saying that he wants to change it?
00:02:00
Speaker 2: I can't speak to the context of those comments with Chippy because actually that night I also had a Queenstown debate myself. But we are being really clear now that making sure we're not scrapping that one hour of reading, maths or writing and just ensuring.
00:02:11
Speaker 1: The discretion is here. But I just want to be clear. So you're saying to me the way it is, you're not changing it. You're leaving it as it is.
00:02:17
Speaker 2: And ensuring teachers have sufficient discretion.
00:02:20
Speaker 1: Which you told me last week they do.
00:02:22
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:02:22
Speaker 1: So you're not changing it.
00:02:23
Speaker 2: So currently under the current system, so we're not changing it.
00:02:26
Speaker 1: Okay. If I go to Chris Hipkins and I say, are you changing it? Is he going to agree with you?
00:02:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, he should. Or else. Or else I'll give him the stare, the mother stare. No.
00:02:35
Speaker 1: Okay. No, Chris.
00:02:36
Speaker 2: And, you know, there's lots of things that people say during debates, you know, and there's lots of context around it. And I back Chippy's judgment on this.
00:02:44
Speaker 1: Okay. So the other thing that you guys seem to have disagreed on slightly is the capital gains tax. Is your capital gains tax inflation adjusted or not?
00:02:51
Speaker 2: So no, because it's a 28% flat rate, right? It's actually concessionary because we're not saying to people it's your marginal tax rate at 33 or 39. I had a debate last week with David Seymour in Queenstown, and I rang you earlier in the day. He was talking about the context around paper gains, which is around valuation, purchase date and disposal date. That's what we mean when we're not taxing that inflationary part of it, the paper gains. Okay.
00:03:17
Speaker 1: So the point that Jack keeps pushing on Q & A is if the inflation rate is 2.5% and your property has gone up by 2.5%, basically meaning it's only gone up by inflation, you're still taxing that.
00:03:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's a flat rate of 28%. And if that's the two and a half percent post disposal, then yes.
00:03:37
Speaker 1: Okay, don't you think you should inflation adjust it?
00:03:39
Speaker 2: Well, we don't inflation adjust other tax rates like GST, like income tax rates. It's a flat rate, so that's why we're using that. And then most countries in the world do do that.
00:03:50
Speaker 1: But GST is not a gain. It's not on a capital gain, is it? And the difficulty here is that over 30 years, if you own a batch, let's say, for 30, 50 years in the family, when you finally go to sell it, and it is worth 10 times what you paid for it, that's an unfair tax bill.
00:04:07
Speaker 2: It's still 28%, whether you've held it for 10 years or your neighbour has held this for the same time.
00:04:13
Speaker 1: But I mean, the example that we use often is you buy a house in Hamilton for $ 30, 000 in 1975, right? You go to sell it in 2025. That house that was $ 30, 000 is now worth a million dollars. You really want people to pay tax on $ 970, 000?
00:04:26
Speaker 2: No, so this was the example that I used in the Queenstown debate, right? So they purchased it at that lower amount. When they go to, on valuation day, it's that higher amount, and then they go to dispose of it, it's another amount. It's the higher of those first two amounts, which is that open book value in which you calculate the gain.
00:04:45
Speaker 1: Let's say it's valued. Is it not? It's valued at the day that you buy.
00:04:49
Speaker 2: No, so... That's if it's after 1 July 2025.
00:04:53
Speaker 1: What I'm saying to you is let's say the same thing happens in the property market that's happened in the last 50 years.
00:04:58
Speaker 2: Sorry, 1 July 2027.
00:04:59
Speaker 1: So you buy it on 1 July 2027 and it's now worth a million dollars. And properties go up by vast amounts. And who knows, maybe in 50 years, a million dollar house is now $ 10 million. You really want people to pay the capital gains tax on $ 9 million.
00:05:14
Speaker 2: So again, different scenarios. It's the same 28%. We're not going to cover anything that was before the valuation date.
00:05:21
Speaker 1: I know that. And so, yes, it's 28%. Are all capital gains taxes around the world not inflation adjusted?
00:05:27
Speaker 2: Well, I know some are, but most aren't because it's much more easier to administer with the flat rate.
00:05:33
Speaker 1: Okay, so you guys are on the same thing with this. Now, have you guys spoken, by that I mean you and Chippy, have you guys spoken to the Greens and the Maori Party and told them to shut up? I haven't. Has Chippy?
00:05:44
Speaker 2: I couldn't answer for Chippy.
00:05:45
Speaker 1: I mean, he's spoken to the Greens, right? We know that as a fact. Did he tell them to shut up about the mongrel mob?
00:05:50
Speaker 2: I don't know, and I can't comment to that.
00:05:52
Speaker 1: When you see.
00:05:53
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty clear, though, what his views are, because he said that very publicly.
00:05:57
Speaker 1: So when you see them tag-teaming on this, first the Greens are talking next minute, it's the Māori Party talking, then it's Harry Tam. Are you just dying a little bit inside?
00:06:04
Speaker 2: Well, the main thing for us is, again, go back to what the issues are that matter to everyday New Zealanders.
00:06:09
Speaker 1: It's the cost of living.
00:06:11
Speaker 2: That's Labour's focus, what Te Pāti Māori and the Greens do. They are accountable for that, but Chippy has been very clear he doesn't condone it.
00:06:18
Speaker 1: Have you seen the Taxpayers Union Chippy AI ad?
00:06:22
Speaker 2: I have seen it.
00:06:22
Speaker 1: Did you laugh just like a little bit? Did you find it just a little bit funny?
00:06:26
Speaker 2: I found it cringe.
00:06:27
Speaker 1: Did you?
00:06:28
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, surely you could have found a real person to do the running? I just, I mean... I totally support chipping when you said it was a bit desperate, and I found it quite cringe.
00:06:38
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a good idea, though, isn't it, using the AI for a cheap ad?
00:06:42
Speaker 2: Well, obviously, maybe they didn't want to pay a real actor that would have to pay living wage, maybe.
00:06:48
Speaker 1: Oh, back to the cost of living. You are good. I like that. Now, on a serious note, after what's happened in Australia, have they bumped up your security?
00:06:56
Speaker 2: So there was really good briefing that MPs got. We had a caucus briefing with both police and parliamentary services and security. Really grateful for Gerry to ensure that this election, knowing, seeing what was happening in the world. So we have had that briefing and we do have that one-to-one contact if we need it.
00:07:14
Speaker 1: Okay.
00:07:15
Speaker 2: I haven't had to use it.
00:07:16
Speaker 1: Have you ever felt unsafe?
00:07:19
Speaker 2: I think at some points there have been elements like when you're in quite big, with lots of people, you know, around. But at the same time, I'm a pretty resilient person. You know, I spent my summers in South Auckland with my family. And to me, I don't feel unsafe to the point I need to look to someone to intervene. Yeah.
00:07:37
Speaker 1: Hey, how are you feeling about mood of the boardroom tomorrow? Pretty excited.
00:07:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's my third one. You know, I was really nervous my first one. And then this third one now, I'm just like, yep, let's get it over. Let's get it over and done with. You know, it's my 16th debate, so ready for it.
00:07:55
Speaker 1: Sick of debates by the end of this. Barbara, thanks very much. It's good to talk to you as always. Barbara Edmonds, Labour Party finance spokesperson.
Speaker 1: Barbara Edmonds, Labour's finance spokesperson, is with us. Hello, Barbara. Hello. Why are you guys suddenly losing?
00:00:07
Speaker 2: Well, I think different polls show different numbers, right? Today, or was it yesterday, there was one where we were ahead, and then one last night where we were behind. The main thing for us is we have to fight for every vote. And I've never taken it for granted, particularly as a local electorate MP, and you have to fight every time for it. So For us, we are focused on the things that New Zealanders are saying that matter to them. It's cost of living, it's jobs, it's access to health care. But ultimately, New Zealand will decide on November the 7th. And for us, really big push in the last couple of days to get people enrolled to vote.
00:00:41
Speaker 1: Can I say, though, you have ended up on the wrong side or in two debates where you are on the wrong side. So crime because of the mongrel mob and education. Would you accept that?
00:00:52
Speaker 2: So crime... because of what the Greens and Te Pāti Māori, and again, Chippy's been really clear, doesn't condone that, doesn't support it at all. And in relation to education, we should have been clearer in our comments around that one hour reading maths writing. That's, you know, we're not scrapping that, but we're giving teachers more discretion around when they do that during the day.
00:01:12
Speaker 1: Okay, have you, because last week when we were talking to you about it, you said you weren't going to change anything about it. And then not even an hour later, we had Hipkins, your leader, on the debate saying this.
00:01:22
Speaker 2: You'll reverse what the government has mandated. We've said that we're.
00:01:27
Speaker 1: Going to give the schools the flexibility to teach what kids need to be taught. OK, so you're on here telling me that the teachers have enough flexibility, you're happy with it, but he's on there going there's not enough flexibility, we're going to change it. So what is it?
00:01:37
Speaker 2: So, again, it's leaving it to the experts who are in the room with the children around what period, what time parts of the day, whether they teach it during play, whether they teach it as part of PE.
00:01:48
Speaker 1: But that's what it is now.
00:01:50
Speaker 2: So the main thing is just making sure they have that flexibility and being really.
00:01:53
Speaker 1: Clear on that. But they do because that's what it is now.
00:01:55
Speaker 2: And that's why we're not scrapping it.
00:01:57
Speaker 1: But then why is he saying that he wants to change it?
00:02:00
Speaker 2: I can't speak to the context of those comments with Chippy because actually that night I also had a Queenstown debate myself. But we are being really clear now that making sure we're not scrapping that one hour of reading, maths or writing and just ensuring.
00:02:11
Speaker 1: The discretion is here. But I just want to be clear. So you're saying to me the way it is, you're not changing it. You're leaving it as it is.
00:02:17
Speaker 2: And ensuring teachers have sufficient discretion.
00:02:20
Speaker 1: Which you told me last week they do.
00:02:22
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:02:22
Speaker 1: So you're not changing it.
00:02:23
Speaker 2: So currently under the current system, so we're not changing it.
00:02:26
Speaker 1: Okay. If I go to Chris Hipkins and I say, are you changing it? Is he going to agree with you?
00:02:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, he should. Or else. Or else I'll give him the stare, the mother stare. No.
00:02:35
Speaker 1: Okay. No, Chris.
00:02:36
Speaker 2: And, you know, there's lots of things that people say during debates, you know, and there's lots of context around it. And I back Chippy's judgment on this.
00:02:44
Speaker 1: Okay. So the other thing that you guys seem to have disagreed on slightly is the capital gains tax. Is your capital gains tax inflation adjusted or not?
00:02:51
Speaker 2: So no, because it's a 28% flat rate, right? It's actually concessionary because we're not saying to people it's your marginal tax rate at 33 or 39. I had a debate last week with David Seymour in Queenstown, and I rang you earlier in the day. He was talking about the context around paper gains, which is around valuation, purchase date and disposal date. That's what we mean when we're not taxing that inflationary part of it, the paper gains. Okay.
00:03:17
Speaker 1: So the point that Jack keeps pushing on Q & A is if the inflation rate is 2.5% and your property has gone up by 2.5%, basically meaning it's only gone up by inflation, you're still taxing that.
00:03:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's a flat rate of 28%. And if that's the two and a half percent post disposal, then yes.
00:03:37
Speaker 1: Okay, don't you think you should inflation adjust it?
00:03:39
Speaker 2: Well, we don't inflation adjust other tax rates like GST, like income tax rates. It's a flat rate, so that's why we're using that. And then most countries in the world do do that.
00:03:50
Speaker 1: But GST is not a gain. It's not on a capital gain, is it? And the difficulty here is that over 30 years, if you own a batch, let's say, for 30, 50 years in the family, when you finally go to sell it, and it is worth 10 times what you paid for it, that's an unfair tax bill.
00:04:07
Speaker 2: It's still 28%, whether you've held it for 10 years or your neighbour has held this for the same time.
00:04:13
Speaker 1: But I mean, the example that we use often is you buy a house in Hamilton for $ 30, 000 in 1975, right? You go to sell it in 2025. That house that was $ 30, 000 is now worth a million dollars. You really want people to pay tax on $ 970, 000?
00:04:26
Speaker 2: No, so this was the example that I used in the Queenstown debate, right? So they purchased it at that lower amount. When they go to, on valuation day, it's that higher amount, and then they go to dispose of it, it's another amount. It's the higher of those first two amounts, which is that open book value in which you calculate the gain.
00:04:45
Speaker 1: Let's say it's valued. Is it not? It's valued at the day that you buy.
00:04:49
Speaker 2: No, so... That's if it's after 1 July 2025.
00:04:53
Speaker 1: What I'm saying to you is let's say the same thing happens in the property market that's happened in the last 50 years.
00:04:58
Speaker 2: Sorry, 1 July 2027.
00:04:59
Speaker 1: So you buy it on 1 July 2027 and it's now worth a million dollars. And properties go up by vast amounts. And who knows, maybe in 50 years, a million dollar house is now $ 10 million. You really want people to pay the capital gains tax on $ 9 million.
00:05:14
Speaker 2: So again, different scenarios. It's the same 28%. We're not going to cover anything that was before the valuation date.
00:05:21
Speaker 1: I know that. And so, yes, it's 28%. Are all capital gains taxes around the world not inflation adjusted?
00:05:27
Speaker 2: Well, I know some are, but most aren't because it's much more easier to administer with the flat rate.
00:05:33
Speaker 1: Okay, so you guys are on the same thing with this. Now, have you guys spoken, by that I mean you and Chippy, have you guys spoken to the Greens and the Maori Party and told them to shut up? I haven't. Has Chippy?
00:05:44
Speaker 2: I couldn't answer for Chippy.
00:05:45
Speaker 1: I mean, he's spoken to the Greens, right? We know that as a fact. Did he tell them to shut up about the mongrel mob?
00:05:50
Speaker 2: I don't know, and I can't comment to that.
00:05:52
Speaker 1: When you see.
00:05:53
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty clear, though, what his views are, because he said that very publicly.
00:05:57
Speaker 1: So when you see them tag-teaming on this, first the Greens are talking next minute, it's the Māori Party talking, then it's Harry Tam. Are you just dying a little bit inside?
00:06:04
Speaker 2: Well, the main thing for us is, again, go back to what the issues are that matter to everyday New Zealanders.
00:06:09
Speaker 1: It's the cost of living.
00:06:11
Speaker 2: That's Labour's focus, what Te Pāti Māori and the Greens do. They are accountable for that, but Chippy has been very clear he doesn't condone it.
00:06:18
Speaker 1: Have you seen the Taxpayers Union Chippy AI ad?
00:06:22
Speaker 2: I have seen it.
00:06:22
Speaker 1: Did you laugh just like a little bit? Did you find it just a little bit funny?
00:06:26
Speaker 2: I found it cringe.
00:06:27
Speaker 1: Did you?
00:06:28
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, surely you could have found a real person to do the running? I just, I mean... I totally support chipping when you said it was a bit desperate, and I found it quite cringe.
00:06:38
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a good idea, though, isn't it, using the AI for a cheap ad?
00:06:42
Speaker 2: Well, obviously, maybe they didn't want to pay a real actor that would have to pay living wage, maybe.
00:06:48
Speaker 1: Oh, back to the cost of living. You are good. I like that. Now, on a serious note, after what's happened in Australia, have they bumped up your security?
00:06:56
Speaker 2: So there was really good briefing that MPs got. We had a caucus briefing with both police and parliamentary services and security. Really grateful for Gerry to ensure that this election, knowing, seeing what was happening in the world. So we have had that briefing and we do have that one-to-one contact if we need it.
00:07:14
Speaker 1: Okay.
00:07:15
Speaker 2: I haven't had to use it.
00:07:16
Speaker 1: Have you ever felt unsafe?
00:07:19
Speaker 2: I think at some points there have been elements like when you're in quite big, with lots of people, you know, around. But at the same time, I'm a pretty resilient person. You know, I spent my summers in South Auckland with my family. And to me, I don't feel unsafe to the point I need to look to someone to intervene. Yeah.
00:07:37
Speaker 1: Hey, how are you feeling about mood of the boardroom tomorrow? Pretty excited.
00:07:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's my third one. You know, I was really nervous my first one. And then this third one now, I'm just like, yep, let's get it over. Let's get it over and done with. You know, it's my 16th debate, so ready for it.
00:07:55
Speaker 1: Sick of debates by the end of this. Barbara, thanks very much. It's good to talk to you as always. Barbara Edmonds, Labour Party finance spokesperson.
