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Welcome to Consider the Constitution, the podcast that cuts through the noise and provides insight into constitutional issues that directly affect every American.
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Hosted by Dr.
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Katie Crawford Lackey and featuring interviews with constitutional scholars, policy and subject matter experts, heritage professionals, and legal practitioners, we examine the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.
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Consider the Constitution is brought to you by the Robert H.
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Smith Center for the Constitution at James Madison's Montpelier.
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Hello and welcome back to Consider the Constitution.
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I'm your host, Dr.
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Katie Crawford Lackey, with James Madison's Montpelier.
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In this episode, we're going to rewind the clock back to the days before the American Revolution and just after the French and Indian War.
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Now, this conflict between Britain and France, and France's indigenous allies, fought between 1754 and 1763, was essentially about control over North America.
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Britain, trying to protect its territory, the colonies, ultimately wins, but victory comes at a cost.
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Britain's national debt skyrocketed.
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To address this, Parliament passed new taxes on the colonists, like the infamous Stamp Act, arguing that the colonies should help pay for their own protection.
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As we know now, some of the colonists were outraged by this.
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But what I think is particularly fascinating is the logic they used to challenge Britain's authority, not just economically, but politically and constitutionally.
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They weren't simply angry about paying a tax.
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They were debating the very nature of law, government, and rights.
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Questions about representation, authority, and the meaning of constitution were at the heart of their arguments.
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And these debates would help shape the emerging American identity.
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So today we're diving into these constitutional ideas with the help of our guest, Dr.
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Zachary Dybel, who is an assistant professor of history at the Virginia Military Institute.
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He teaches courses on the United States history, the American Revolution, and the Atlantic world.
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He also served as a secondary social studies school teacher for eight years before earning his doctorate in history at Binghamton University.
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His research explores the intertwined histories of learning and politics in 18th century America.
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Zach, it's wonderful to have you in the studio with us today.
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Welcome.
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Thank you so much.
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It's it's awesome to be here.
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I'm really excited for this conversation.
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I feel like those folks who have a background in both teaching, K through 12 students and at the college level really have kind of an extra skill in being able to talk with the public.
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So again, just really excited to have you here talking about this subject, which we haven't really covered on any of our episodes in the past.
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So, Zach, you uh prepared me leaning up to this conversation.
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There was all these great readings I looked over, and you introduced me to the words of John Dickinson.
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Now, Dickinson, he's eventually going to be involved in the American Revolution.
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But before all of that, he is a Pennsylvania lawyer who writes publicly about growing frustrations in the colonies.
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He writes, Americans' happiness is founded on their constitution.
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Their security, liberty, and prosperity would each be prompted by preserving that constitution in unabated vigor throughout every part.
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So I want to pause here because he's writing that in 1768.
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The drafting of the United States Constitution doesn't happen for almost another 20 years.
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So what exactly is he talking about?
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I mean, we haven't had the revolution yet, it hasn't started.
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So when he's saying constitution, what does he mean?
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What's he referring to?
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It's a great question.
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I think one of the misconceptions that we tend to have about constitution as a concept is we define it in the terms of our constitution, right?
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We think that constitution means the United States Constitution.
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But for an English person or a North American colonist in British North America, they would have thought of the Constitution less as a document and more as an arrangement.
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So a constitution was, if you think about the root of the word, right, it constitutes a society.
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It is helping to structure the arrangements, the relationships, the dynamics of a society.
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And for a guy like Dickinson, his understanding of the constitution that governs his society draws on a lot of different influences, both historic and contemporary.
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And especially for the English, it's hard to understand their ideas about constitutionalism without going back to the 17th century, right?
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And the English Revolution, the Glorious Revolution, the settlement after the restoration of this kind of big question about the balance of power in England, right?
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If we think about the English Civil War going all the way through to the English Revolution and the Glorious Revolution, they're trying to balance who has power within that political arrangement.
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So when you have parliament, the king, the courts, the common law, local authorities, how does that arrangement work?
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And it's not really until 1689 that the English sort that out because they're recovering from an era of Stuart monarchs, so the Stuart dynasty or the Stuart family, who were constantly trying to assert more authority as the monarch with each passing Stuart king, right?
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So Charles I famously refuses to call parliament in the 1620s, leading to the English Civil War against Oliver Cromwell and the parliamentarians.
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But the idea was that by the time you get to 1689 and James II, who's the last kind of Stuart monarch, is sort of forced out of power by William of Orange and the parliamentary supporters of the Orange faction, what they end up doing is they say, look, we have to put this issue to bed because the king and parliament will always be fighting each other for power if we don't sort out where that power lies.
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So to bring it back to North America, Dickinson is writing, you know, 70 years, 80 years after this settlement, but the Glorious Revolution settled this concept that it's not subjecthood to an absolute monarch that defines someone who is English.
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What defines them is that their political arrangement is dictated by a constitution that governs the way their society is set up.
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It involves the kind of inherited common law, it involves the major documents of British political history, so things like Magna Carta, things like the Petition of Right, the English Bill of Rights that comes out of the Glorious Revolution.
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And it's that sort of constitutional sensibility that I think Dickinson is appealing to when he's writing in the 1760s, because when Parliament starts to uh assert itself as having more authority than that settlement had previously ascribed to them for the colonies, that's when the colonists start to say, well, wait a minute, we thought we lived in this one arrangement, and now you guys are trying to set up this other arrangement that goes beyond what we had originally agreed to.
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I find this context very helpful because in my head, at least, I often think about, you know, okay, the colonists at this point in time, 1760s, 1770s, they're thinking all of these things, being influenced by like great writers and philosophers.
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However, they are living in this other context of the British crown and what's happening overseas, and their expectations are being kind of guided by that.
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And it sounds like there's, you know, over the centuries, this power struggle with the monarchy.
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And so the, I guess, expectations that the colonists have in this kind of constitutional arrangement that you referenced is changing or shifting.
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At this point in time in the mid-1700s, what is the expectation that colonists have about their rights or how, you know, the relationship between the colonies and the crown?
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Aaron Powell My answer would would probably depend on when in the 1700s we're talking about, because I think it it changes over time.
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And it changed, and the other kind of question I would ask is where, right?
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So the understanding of some of these relationships varies in the different colonies.
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Another kind of understanding we have that, or something we know that helps contextualize the way we think about this is that the individual colonies have very different histories and different relationships with this constitutionalism.
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So if you think about a place like Virginia, Virginia has a long attachment to the Anglican Church.
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It has a long attachment to a more hierarchical arrangement with the colonial kind of creation of the colony itself.
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Whereas if you look at a colony like Massachusetts, they have a long history of being a separatist colony, where you have the Puritans and the Pilgrims kind of forming the con forming the Plymouth Colony and Massachusetts Bay in sort of a dissenting opposition to the 17th century religious structure of British rule.
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So what that means is that by the time we get to the mid-1700s, when, as you in your preface where you talked about the Seven Years' War, when Britain comes out of the war and even before they're finished with fighting the war, they're very concerned about making sure that the colonies as a whole understand the arrangement that is going to exist after the defeat of France.
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They're going to be incorporating territories like French Canada.
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They're going to be incorporating formerly Spanish territories, they're going to be having to figure out how that trade network is going to work with their West Indies colonies.
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And so for the British, the priority is trying to teach the colonies in a way how they fit in that arrangement.
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But as I said, each of the colonies have their own histories, their own understandings of where they fit.
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And one of the things a lot of these colonies invoke when they start to get upset with the new constitutional expectations of the 1760s is the colonial charters, right?
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And the idea that the king charters colonies throughout the restoration period, even some before, but you know, the restoration period and then into the early 1700s, the colonies all start to acquire these royal charters, which means the king himself is kind of giving approval for this colony to exist.
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Before the Glorious Revolution, Parliament wasn't really involved in that.
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I mean, parliament played a role in regulating trade, but the charter is more historic than that relationship.
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And so when Parliament passes things like the Stamp Act or the Currency Act or the Sugar Act, those laws, some of the colonists are fine with it because they say, well, it just has to do with regulating trade.
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But others start to be wary because they say, well, our relationship is we have our own colonial legislature, we have our own colonial political system, and all of that is acting under the prerogative of the king.
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Why do we have to listen to anything parliament is directing us?
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Because they're not really part of this conversation in a way, right?
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It's the historic relationship of the colonies ties itself to the king, which is why when we get to the arguments over independence, you know, if you read what the colonists are writing throughout the 1760s, early 1770s, all of their complaints are lodged against the ministers, right?
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So people like evil George Grenville and the Stamp Act or Parliament.
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But they never really accuse the king.
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In fact, a lot of times they're writing asking the king to intervene on their behalf.
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They're saying, you know, hey, King George III, save us from these corrupt ministers who are trying to pollute the constitutional relationship we've had for so long.
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And once they realize the king is unwilling to do that, that's kind of the last recourse they have.
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And that's why they have to turn to independence in their minds, right?
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Because the king is the protector of those colonial charters.
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And if he's not willing to stand up, then no one is.
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And so I think for the colonists, it's working through the constitutional system of as they protest some of these policies.
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So knowing that, Zach, that some folks, some colonists are actually looking towards the king to protect them from what they see as parliament or these ministers making decisions or levying taxes that they don't think they're part of the conversation, as you said.
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Where do ideas like liberty, security, and prosperity start coming into this conversation when we think about the lead up to the American Revolution?
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I think one dynamic I try to reiterate to my students is if you want to know when Americans are most patriotically British, right?
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If when is it that colonists in North America are most bought into the British system?
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It's really like 1763, right?
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At the end of the Seven Years' War, Britain is coming out, they have beaten Catholic and absolute monarchy France, right?
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They've secured the empire, the rule of Britannia is, you know, everybody's singing it in the concert halls and things like that.
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And part of the reason why they are so gung-ho about being British in British North America is because they believe that they have a type of liberty that no one else has.
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English liberty is the thing that binds the Constitution together.
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If this idea of an English Constitution is all these formal and informal, written and unwritten dynamics at work that constitute the arrangement, it's liberty that is the glue holding it all together.
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And for someone like John Dickinson, he is or or Benjamin Franklin or any of the founders, the reason they are so excited about the prospect of what lies ahead for the British Empire is because they know their liberties are secured by this constitution.
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And yet, the very first measures of reform to govern that empire immediately throw into question what they thought they understood liberty to be.
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So for colonists, they start to say, well, wait a minute, I thought having English liberty meant that I am free in the context of my colonial society, I have representation in my colonial legislature, I have certain rights when it comes to the judicial system, I have freedom of commerce, I have all these kind of things that are protected by English constitutionalism.
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And in the immediate aftermath of the Seven Years' War, you have the proclamation line limiting their settlement, you have the Stamp Act limiting their access to printed materials based on a stamp and really what amounts to censorship, different trade regulations that are going to impede their ability to free trade as they were hoping for.
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And so what becomes clear, you know, I've noticed in the research that I've done, is that by the time you get to the Stamp Act crisis and the late 1760s when Dickinson is writing this letters from a farmer, the colonists are coming to the realization that they have a very different understanding of liberty than what the British government believes liberty to mean.
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And the British are realizing the same thing.
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And it's that disconnect over how people are learning about their liberties that I think leads to some of the intractable disputes that are going to give way to, well, if we have this understanding and you have this understanding, there's nothing left for us to argue about.
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And it just becomes now a movement for political separation.
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This kind of calls to mind for me the differences in generations as well.
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You know, at the start of the American Revolution, Benjamin Franklin, for example, he's 70 years old versus someone like James Madison who is 25.
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So there's definitely a generational difference there.
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And I'm assuming Ben Franklin is experiencing a very different kind of colonial America than James Madison, what he grew up in.
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And, you know, we know these men were thinking about what does liberty mean?
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But your explanation really shines light on why that question became so important during this time period.
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It's this difference in, I guess, definition of what liberty meant given by the British Crown or the Parliament versus what colonists think their liberty is.
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And so it sounds like this period of curtailment.
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Again, you mentioned kind of the settlement line, paper due to the Stamp Act or other taxes.
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Is that what leads to the American Revolution?
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Is that kind of the catalyst for the conflict that arises?
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Yeah, I mean, I think that the causes of the American Revolution will be an evergreen scholarly debate for many years to come.
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I think what I'm noticing is I think part of one one of the causes is this uh disconnect about what it means to have freedom in a society defined by those freedoms.
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And that debate that we see colonists like Franklin or Madison or Dickinson having is just as evergreen as the revolution itself, right?
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I mean, we still have those arguments today.
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And I think if we're going to try to see some of the revolution from a vantage point that we can understand, it's that they don't have it all figured out, right?
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I mean, uh John Dickinson, a lot of what I have been thinking about, Dickinson in particular, comes from Jane Calvert's new biography of Dickinson, which is a fantastic uh book.
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Everybody should check it out, Penman of the Revolution.
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But Dickinson is one of these examples, much like Franklin, who they're really testing ideas.
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They're they're experimental.
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I mean, Franklin and the Albany Plan of Union, even before the Seven Years' War, is a big experiment.
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Like he is trying to figure out is there a way to unite the colonies and some of our indigenous allies under this definition, right?
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And again, this is a very optimistic reading.
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I'm sure we can also read the ways these people are also trying to preserve their own self-interest and things like that.
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But I also think if we're going to look for causes of the revolution, sorting out the meaning of liberty is a really big piece of a lot of these people's understandings of why they're starting to resist and what's motivating them to go protest in the streets.
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And I think that's an important piece if we want to understand, you know, it's one thing for Dickinson or Franklin to be writing these things and pamphlets.
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It's another thing to get a bunch of people to sign up for an army that's going to fight against the British.
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And so a lot of their efforts are not just about how do I understand liberty, but how am I going to communicate this and really teach it to the rest of the American population that this is happening and we need to be guardians of our own liberties.
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And in the same process, they have to negotiate with that audience as well.
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So when they have protesters against the Stamp Act and the Sons of Liberty have to respond to what the mob is telling them, just as much as they can prescribe some of this to the people themselves.
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You know, I see it as part of this dialogue and conversation that isn't necessarily, you know, they don't just sit down in August of 1765 and say, let's start a revolution, guys.
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It's a long discursive process, this argument and discussion.
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And it's why a lot of them aren't their goal is not separation at the beginning.
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I mean, we think the revolution is this thing that's coming, right?
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It's this looming over the edge, but in 1768, they don't know that, right?
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Dickinson doesn't know that the revolution's going to happen.
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And in fact, he's a great example of someone who really is very much so committed to trying to preserve ties to Britain as long as he can.
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And Franklin's the same way.
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So, I mean, yes, there are, you know, there are turning points for every all of the different founders, but one of the things when I teach the American Revolution class, I always encourage students when we learn about the revolution, we tend to look forward, right?
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We stand in 1765 and we look forward to 76.
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Well, I want to encourage us to, as we move through that timeline, don't forget to look backward too.
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That when you get to 68 or 74, when the first Continental Congress meets, they're looking at the moments that they've experienced.
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They can't look ahead.
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And so that's where this understanding of English constitutionalism is constantly in their conversation, in their dialogue, because as you said, the federal constitution isn't coming for another 20 years.
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So they don't know that that's on the horizon.
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It's more of a conversation of, well, how did we get here and how are we going to cope with the moment in front of us?
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And so that's why I think a lot of these debates are recurrent, they're dynamic, right?
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Their opinions change, there's a lot of debate and discourse.
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And it's not just one kind of straight line to the declaration.
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This is something that comes to my mind quite frequently when I'm, you know, engaging in history.
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It's that the American Revolution is not inevitable.
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And I think sometimes we look back and we're like, oh, Civil War, that was inevitable, or this event or that event.
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But it's not.
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And there's these really key moments that lead up to it.
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But to your point, the American Revolution is kind of the culmination of all of these moments, events, all these things from the past.
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And when we think about that moment of conflict and everything that happens before, I'm assuming that there was not just this conversation about what does liberty mean, which as you referenced, that's while we hear from people like Ben Franklin, James Madison, and so on, we hear their thoughts.
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This is something that's happening across different ages, ethnicities, even though we don't have record of some folks and what they were thinking about it, geography, different colonies.
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So there's a lot that has to happen to get to this point.
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But what does the thought process look like in terms of balancing liberty and trying to define what it means for the colonies with practical?
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Concerns about stability and security?
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Yeah, it's a great question.
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I think for the revolutionaries, that balance becomes more important in certain moments than in others, right?
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So when they're trying to get people in the streets to protest the Stamp Act, security isn't their primary concern, right?
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But when they're trying to set up a continental army and they need people to follow orders and answer militia musters and set up a draft into the Continental Army, security and maybe curtailing some liberties becomes more important.
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And I think that dynamism is recurrent throughout the revolution.
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And then of course, when we get to the post-revolutionary period, when we get to the 1780s, security becomes the big concern of the day.
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I mean, the Shaysites in Massachusetts or the lack of security and fear that Britain's just going to invade again and we don't have a federal government strong enough to defend the United States.
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That's where some of the curtailing of those liberties takes place in the form of a national constitution, right?
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They they see the revolution's excesses have gone too far.
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:09.920
At least that's that's one interpretation.
00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:14.400
But I also think that they are very mindful of that balance.
00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:20.400
It's almost clear that they know that there will never be a perfect balance between liberty and security, right?
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:23.039
You can't have complete liberty, you can't have complete security.
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:27.039
And they draw a lot of their thinking from what they're seeing around them.
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:33.440
So one of the great indicators of this is if you look at the grievances in the Declaration of Independence.
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:47.759
So the we we fondly remember the poetic text of the Declaration, but the grievances are really important to kind of getting inside the heads of colonists as they're experiencing the day-to-day.
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:53.119
And actually, my former PhD advisor, Rob Parkinson, has a new book coming out about the grievances.
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:54.319
Um, that's fantastic.
00:23:54.319 --> 00:24:08.799
But what they show us is that the colonists are targeting specific actions that they see the British government having taken that infringed on their liberties in a way that also infringed on their security.
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:14.000
So one of the examples, the third grievance, the famous grievance around representation, right?
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:17.200
This is where we get the idea of no taxation without representation, right?
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:30.160
Well, it was actually a grievance more about the fact that Parliament had stopped the colonies from adding representatives to their colonial legislatures as they expanded westward.
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:37.680
So they had passed the proclamation line in 1763 to stop colonies from moving westward and potentially getting into conflicts with Native Americans.
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:37.920
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:42.000
Because they had just fought this big war where they're trying to protect the colonists from that.
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:42.240
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:48.079
And as you rightly pointed out, things like the Stamp Act, the revenue was meant specifically to pay for protection of the colonies.
00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:54.720
It's a big I think you you can probably find USS3 textbooks that say, well, you know, they wanted the Americans to pay off the debt.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:57.200
And it's like, actually, that isn't at all what that tax was for.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:02.880
The tax was specifically for protecting the colonies from Native Americans, from the French, from a future war.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:11.839
So that was one big priority, but they also prevented each individual colony from when they would expand westward and establish, say, a new county or a new town.
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:20.640
Typically, if that county established enough population, then they would get representation in their colonial legislature.
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:28.160
But to discourage that westward settlement, Parliament was saying, actually, you can settle if you want, but you're not going to get any more representatives in your assembly.
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:39.119
And our the British government appointee, the governor of the colony and his governor's council, they didn't want to have to work with this like a huge colonial legislature.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:49.119
And the complexities of that, I pointed out just to say when you say something like the rallying cry of no taxation without representation, it's not just about the fact that they don't have a say in parliament.
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:56.799
It's about the way parliament views the idea of representation, is increasingly at odds with the way colonists themselves view it.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:05.599
And they think representation is the way we express our freedom, we express our interest in government, the way we hold government accountable.
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:07.359
It's also the way we protect ourselves.
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:14.000
It's an instrument of security because if the government's doing something we don't want, then we have representatives to help us take recourse.
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:33.440
And so when parliament kind of infringes on that liberty or restricts that liberty or tries to change it in a way that the colonists are really uncomfortable with, it shows us that they see any threat to liberty as also a threat to their security, that they those two things are interrelated with one another.
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:38.720
And so when they list these grievances, it's part of that balance that they're objecting to.
00:26:38.720 --> 00:27:17.599
I mean, in a more kind of visceral example, Jefferson's famous grievance outlining how the British government is turning Native Americans, enslaved persons, and foreign mercenaries, specifically like Hessian mercenaries who have arrived in North America, it's a very strong statement that Jefferson makes about there's an anxiety that the king is actually siding with all the people who used to be America's enemies, whether it's the Native American frontier nations who now the British are enlisting to fight against the rebelling colonists, the German states that reflect some of the European politics of the day that the North American colonists don't really care about.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:24.160
But then they're also inciting insurrections among enslaved people to try to get them to rise up against colonial enslavers.
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:28.079
And we see this with Dunmore's proclamation in Virginia in 1775.
00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:47.519
And I guess what I point to that grievance as well to show those are freedoms and liberties that the colonists have particularly come to understand, that they get protection from Native Americans, that they have a liberty to enslave, that they have these are these are parts of their colonial society that have been built up over the generations.
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:54.400
And when the king refuses to preserve those things, it's a bridge too far to their security.
00:27:54.400 --> 00:28:02.160
They're afraid for the security of their estates if the people they enslave can join an armed force to fight against them.
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:19.839
And so I think the grievances are a really good window into what Americans are thinking at the moment, at least the Americans who are involved in the declaration, what they're thinking about this meaning of liberty and security and what they value, what they balance, what they want to see addressed in the moment of the revolution.
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:24.799
So, Zach, you just brought up like a million more questions that I want to ask you.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:27.920
However, we are towards the end of our program.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:31.680
I might have to have you back on the podcast so we can explore further.
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:44.799
But as we wrap up, there is kind of one pressing thought because the way that you're laying out this history, you see the mindset behind Britain and why they're taking the action that they're taking.
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:49.839
You also see the colonists and you better understand why they're responding the way that they are.
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:55.759
And I kind of see the logic behind why Britain is levying these taxes.
00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:56.559
It makes sense.
00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:58.720
They're trying to protect the colonists.
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:12.000
The whole no taxation without representation, it kind of loses some of that, like, you know, patriotic vigor when you think about, well, you know, folks aren't supposed to be settling beyond a certain boundary line, and they are.
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:19.200
So again, it just helps you better understand history and why things are playing out, why they're making the decisions they're making.
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:23.039
Why is it important to approach history in this way?
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:30.480
How does it help us understand not just American history at this point, but how does it also inform our present?
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:43.039
You know, one of the things that I've seen a lot of my work tries to think about how these conversations are debates about ideas, sure, but they're also debates about how to get those ideas to the people.
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:47.920
In other words, how to teach people and to educate them on your position.
00:29:47.920 --> 00:30:07.599
So for the British, it's really important that we instruct Americans on how they can access their liberties in a productive way in a new empire that's much more expanded than it was before, that has a lot of problems to sort out, and we need them to understand why this system has to work a certain way.
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:23.519
For the Americans, they're almost approaching it in the exact same way by saying we really need to teach people about why these fundamental liberties and these natural rights are so important to the way the colonial societies have worked since the 17th century.
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:30.400
If we let them go, if we give up some of these freedoms, well then we aren't really Britons anymore.
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:32.960
We aren't entitled to those English liberties anymore.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:36.160
We're just vassals of the English state at that point.
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:41.519
And so what I see in this story is two very different visions.
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:44.400
Neither vision is particularly wrong, right?
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:51.279
I think sometimes we have a tendency to want to say one side was right, one side was wrong, and that's the end all be all.
00:30:51.279 --> 00:31:01.279
I don't necessarily think that the British are wrong in suggesting that the way that English liberty works plays out the way they're trying to teach the Americans.
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:06.079
No, you don't get the same level of representation, but that's okay because colonies just can't, right?
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:07.279
It won't work that way.
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:10.000
And the British aren't wrong in presenting that thesis.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:17.279
But I also think the American colonists aren't wrong to suggest these are liberties and norms that they have lived by for generations.
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:34.400
And I think maybe one of the lessons to take away is that, especially in the context of an educational dialogue, when two sides that have very different opinions decide they are no longer willing to learn from each other, that's when the shooting starts for the American Revolution.
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:45.599
That's when we reach that impasse where two different groups just simply can't converse anymore because they feel like the other side is completely unwilling to learn anything from their position.
00:31:45.599 --> 00:32:04.000
And I think in a time when we have such intense polarization, we have a lot of discord over even the meaning of the founding in a lot of ways, we should take a lesson from some of the revolutionary moments where this educational impasse can have really damaging effects to a society.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:11.680
And as much as the colonists are willing to go along with it for the purposes of the revolution, a lot of them later in their life reflect on this.
00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:13.920
And you can see some of the changes.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:24.400
You know, I think of the very famous curate Montpelier, you guys have a sign, I just walked by it today, of the very famous letter that James Madison writes in 1822 to William Barry about education.
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:31.359
And, you know, he's he has that great quote about needing to arm ourselves with knowledge and if we want to be our own governors, right?
00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:43.279
But in that letter, he also says that the great aspiration of a free people should be to understand that liberty and learning go hand in hand.
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:57.119
And those two things have to be balanced with each other, they have to be appreciated along with each other, and that if you want to prioritize liberty, you also have to be willing to learn, whether it's from people who agree with you or disagree with you.
00:32:57.119 --> 00:33:07.200
And I just think the fact that Madison here in 1822, decades after he's involved in all these revolutionary moments, is able to reflect on that and understand.
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:20.960
I like to think that maybe he's reflecting on the fact that sometimes there are moments where it's better to learn from others and not to just assume that there's nothing you can learn from them and show that willingness and that openness to the other side.
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:22.160
And maybe, maybe not.
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:24.880
Maybe in 1822, Madison would say, no, the British were wrong.
00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:30.960
But I like to think that maybe in his older age, he's starting to look back and say, you know, that we always have something to learn.
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:39.119
I think that's one of the most intriguing aspects about Madison is that some scholars criticize him for changing his mind on things.
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:46.400
But I think that is such an asset that he is willing to hold strong in his opinions because he's done his research.
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:49.039
He's this really profound intellectual person.
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:55.599
However, he is not above listening to somebody else's ideas and changing his mind.
00:33:55.599 --> 00:34:04.640
And your conversation today about the American Revolution, for example, it's not British were wrong, colonies were right, or vice versa.
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:09.599
There is so much complexity interweaved all throughout.
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:14.000
And it's this complexity and nuance that informs the present.
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:16.719
It informs all those little moments, all those decisions.
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:26.960
And this really key point that you touch on is a theme we haven't fully, I would say, explored in the podcast before the idea that liberty and learning go hand in hand.
00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:29.679
And in order to have liberty, you have to have learning.
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:33.760
And that means listening and understanding and being open.
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:37.519
And that is something I see less of.
00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:49.519
I think we all need a little bit more of that listening because we don't want to get to that impasse point where we think we have nothing to learn from someone else or another group or whoever it may be.
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:51.039
So thank you for that message.
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:52.559
I think it's very profound.
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:53.280
Absolutely.
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:54.079
Don't thank me.
00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:55.519
It's James Madison, right?
00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:58.400
But yeah, I think there's always stuff to learn from the founding.
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:10.719
And I think that this complexity that you're pointing to and the contingency of the past is something that we should remind ourselves of in the present because things are just as complicated and contingent now as they were then.
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:12.559
Well, thank you so much, Dr.
00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:16.079
Zachary Dybel, for being here at Montpelier with us today.
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:17.199
Great conversation.
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:18.400
I appreciate you guys having me.
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:20.159
And thank you to all of our listeners.
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:21.519
I hope you enjoyed this show.
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:23.920
Please share it with your friends and family.
00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:28.400
And join us again in two weeks as we consider the Constitution.
00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:11.439
Welcome to Consider the Constitution, the podcast that cuts through the noise and provides insight into constitutional issues that directly affect every American.
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Hosted by Dr.
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:27.440
Katie Crawford Lackey and featuring interviews with constitutional scholars, policy and subject matter experts, heritage professionals, and legal practitioners, we examine the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.
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Consider the Constitution is brought to you by the Robert H.
00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:36.159
Smith Center for the Constitution at James Madison's Montpelier.
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Hello and welcome back to Consider the Constitution.
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I'm your host, Dr.
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Katie Crawford Lackey, with James Madison's Montpelier.
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In this episode, we're going to rewind the clock back to the days before the American Revolution and just after the French and Indian War.
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Now, this conflict between Britain and France, and France's indigenous allies, fought between 1754 and 1763, was essentially about control over North America.
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Britain, trying to protect its territory, the colonies, ultimately wins, but victory comes at a cost.
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Britain's national debt skyrocketed.
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To address this, Parliament passed new taxes on the colonists, like the infamous Stamp Act, arguing that the colonies should help pay for their own protection.
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As we know now, some of the colonists were outraged by this.
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But what I think is particularly fascinating is the logic they used to challenge Britain's authority, not just economically, but politically and constitutionally.
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They weren't simply angry about paying a tax.
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They were debating the very nature of law, government, and rights.
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Questions about representation, authority, and the meaning of constitution were at the heart of their arguments.
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And these debates would help shape the emerging American identity.
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So today we're diving into these constitutional ideas with the help of our guest, Dr.
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Zachary Dybel, who is an assistant professor of history at the Virginia Military Institute.
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He teaches courses on the United States history, the American Revolution, and the Atlantic world.
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He also served as a secondary social studies school teacher for eight years before earning his doctorate in history at Binghamton University.
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His research explores the intertwined histories of learning and politics in 18th century America.
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Zach, it's wonderful to have you in the studio with us today.
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Welcome.
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Thank you so much.
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It's it's awesome to be here.
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I'm really excited for this conversation.
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I feel like those folks who have a background in both teaching, K through 12 students and at the college level really have kind of an extra skill in being able to talk with the public.
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So again, just really excited to have you here talking about this subject, which we haven't really covered on any of our episodes in the past.
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So, Zach, you uh prepared me leaning up to this conversation.
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There was all these great readings I looked over, and you introduced me to the words of John Dickinson.
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Now, Dickinson, he's eventually going to be involved in the American Revolution.
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But before all of that, he is a Pennsylvania lawyer who writes publicly about growing frustrations in the colonies.
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He writes, Americans' happiness is founded on their constitution.
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Their security, liberty, and prosperity would each be prompted by preserving that constitution in unabated vigor throughout every part.
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So I want to pause here because he's writing that in 1768.
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The drafting of the United States Constitution doesn't happen for almost another 20 years.
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So what exactly is he talking about?
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I mean, we haven't had the revolution yet, it hasn't started.
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So when he's saying constitution, what does he mean?
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What's he referring to?
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It's a great question.
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I think one of the misconceptions that we tend to have about constitution as a concept is we define it in the terms of our constitution, right?
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We think that constitution means the United States Constitution.
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But for an English person or a North American colonist in British North America, they would have thought of the Constitution less as a document and more as an arrangement.
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So a constitution was, if you think about the root of the word, right, it constitutes a society.
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It is helping to structure the arrangements, the relationships, the dynamics of a society.
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And for a guy like Dickinson, his understanding of the constitution that governs his society draws on a lot of different influences, both historic and contemporary.
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And especially for the English, it's hard to understand their ideas about constitutionalism without going back to the 17th century, right?
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And the English Revolution, the Glorious Revolution, the settlement after the restoration of this kind of big question about the balance of power in England, right?
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If we think about the English Civil War going all the way through to the English Revolution and the Glorious Revolution, they're trying to balance who has power within that political arrangement.
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So when you have parliament, the king, the courts, the common law, local authorities, how does that arrangement work?
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And it's not really until 1689 that the English sort that out because they're recovering from an era of Stuart monarchs, so the Stuart dynasty or the Stuart family, who were constantly trying to assert more authority as the monarch with each passing Stuart king, right?
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So Charles I famously refuses to call parliament in the 1620s, leading to the English Civil War against Oliver Cromwell and the parliamentarians.
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But the idea was that by the time you get to 1689 and James II, who's the last kind of Stuart monarch, is sort of forced out of power by William of Orange and the parliamentary supporters of the Orange faction, what they end up doing is they say, look, we have to put this issue to bed because the king and parliament will always be fighting each other for power if we don't sort out where that power lies.
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So to bring it back to North America, Dickinson is writing, you know, 70 years, 80 years after this settlement, but the Glorious Revolution settled this concept that it's not subjecthood to an absolute monarch that defines someone who is English.
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What defines them is that their political arrangement is dictated by a constitution that governs the way their society is set up.
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It involves the kind of inherited common law, it involves the major documents of British political history, so things like Magna Carta, things like the Petition of Right, the English Bill of Rights that comes out of the Glorious Revolution.
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And it's that sort of constitutional sensibility that I think Dickinson is appealing to when he's writing in the 1760s, because when Parliament starts to uh assert itself as having more authority than that settlement had previously ascribed to them for the colonies, that's when the colonists start to say, well, wait a minute, we thought we lived in this one arrangement, and now you guys are trying to set up this other arrangement that goes beyond what we had originally agreed to.
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I find this context very helpful because in my head, at least, I often think about, you know, okay, the colonists at this point in time, 1760s, 1770s, they're thinking all of these things, being influenced by like great writers and philosophers.
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However, they are living in this other context of the British crown and what's happening overseas, and their expectations are being kind of guided by that.
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And it sounds like there's, you know, over the centuries, this power struggle with the monarchy.
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And so the, I guess, expectations that the colonists have in this kind of constitutional arrangement that you referenced is changing or shifting.
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At this point in time in the mid-1700s, what is the expectation that colonists have about their rights or how, you know, the relationship between the colonies and the crown?
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Aaron Powell My answer would would probably depend on when in the 1700s we're talking about, because I think it it changes over time.
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And it changed, and the other kind of question I would ask is where, right?
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So the understanding of some of these relationships varies in the different colonies.
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Another kind of understanding we have that, or something we know that helps contextualize the way we think about this is that the individual colonies have very different histories and different relationships with this constitutionalism.
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So if you think about a place like Virginia, Virginia has a long attachment to the Anglican Church.
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It has a long attachment to a more hierarchical arrangement with the colonial kind of creation of the colony itself.
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Whereas if you look at a colony like Massachusetts, they have a long history of being a separatist colony, where you have the Puritans and the Pilgrims kind of forming the con forming the Plymouth Colony and Massachusetts Bay in sort of a dissenting opposition to the 17th century religious structure of British rule.
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So what that means is that by the time we get to the mid-1700s, when, as you in your preface where you talked about the Seven Years' War, when Britain comes out of the war and even before they're finished with fighting the war, they're very concerned about making sure that the colonies as a whole understand the arrangement that is going to exist after the defeat of France.
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They're going to be incorporating territories like French Canada.
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They're going to be incorporating formerly Spanish territories, they're going to be having to figure out how that trade network is going to work with their West Indies colonies.
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And so for the British, the priority is trying to teach the colonies in a way how they fit in that arrangement.
00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:17.279
But as I said, each of the colonies have their own histories, their own understandings of where they fit.
00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:27.039
And one of the things a lot of these colonies invoke when they start to get upset with the new constitutional expectations of the 1760s is the colonial charters, right?
00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:44.080
And the idea that the king charters colonies throughout the restoration period, even some before, but you know, the restoration period and then into the early 1700s, the colonies all start to acquire these royal charters, which means the king himself is kind of giving approval for this colony to exist.
00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:48.080
Before the Glorious Revolution, Parliament wasn't really involved in that.
00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:54.159
I mean, parliament played a role in regulating trade, but the charter is more historic than that relationship.
00:10:54.159 --> 00:11:06.320
And so when Parliament passes things like the Stamp Act or the Currency Act or the Sugar Act, those laws, some of the colonists are fine with it because they say, well, it just has to do with regulating trade.
00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:19.039
But others start to be wary because they say, well, our relationship is we have our own colonial legislature, we have our own colonial political system, and all of that is acting under the prerogative of the king.
00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:22.480
Why do we have to listen to anything parliament is directing us?
00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:26.559
Because they're not really part of this conversation in a way, right?
00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:42.960
It's the historic relationship of the colonies ties itself to the king, which is why when we get to the arguments over independence, you know, if you read what the colonists are writing throughout the 1760s, early 1770s, all of their complaints are lodged against the ministers, right?
00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.879
So people like evil George Grenville and the Stamp Act or Parliament.
00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:48.960
But they never really accuse the king.
00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:53.279
In fact, a lot of times they're writing asking the king to intervene on their behalf.
00:11:53.279 --> 00:12:03.200
They're saying, you know, hey, King George III, save us from these corrupt ministers who are trying to pollute the constitutional relationship we've had for so long.
00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:08.960
And once they realize the king is unwilling to do that, that's kind of the last recourse they have.
00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:11.840
And that's why they have to turn to independence in their minds, right?
00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:17.039
Because the king is the protector of those colonial charters.
00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:19.519
And if he's not willing to stand up, then no one is.
00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:27.679
And so I think for the colonists, it's working through the constitutional system of as they protest some of these policies.
00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:44.399
So knowing that, Zach, that some folks, some colonists are actually looking towards the king to protect them from what they see as parliament or these ministers making decisions or levying taxes that they don't think they're part of the conversation, as you said.
00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:53.120
Where do ideas like liberty, security, and prosperity start coming into this conversation when we think about the lead up to the American Revolution?
00:12:53.519 --> 00:13:02.879
I think one dynamic I try to reiterate to my students is if you want to know when Americans are most patriotically British, right?
00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:07.519
If when is it that colonists in North America are most bought into the British system?
00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:10.159
It's really like 1763, right?
00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:16.240
At the end of the Seven Years' War, Britain is coming out, they have beaten Catholic and absolute monarchy France, right?
00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:22.720
They've secured the empire, the rule of Britannia is, you know, everybody's singing it in the concert halls and things like that.
00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:35.120
And part of the reason why they are so gung-ho about being British in British North America is because they believe that they have a type of liberty that no one else has.
00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:39.679
English liberty is the thing that binds the Constitution together.
00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:51.360
If this idea of an English Constitution is all these formal and informal, written and unwritten dynamics at work that constitute the arrangement, it's liberty that is the glue holding it all together.
00:13:51.360 --> 00:14:08.639
And for someone like John Dickinson, he is or or Benjamin Franklin or any of the founders, the reason they are so excited about the prospect of what lies ahead for the British Empire is because they know their liberties are secured by this constitution.
00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:17.919
And yet, the very first measures of reform to govern that empire immediately throw into question what they thought they understood liberty to be.
00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:42.240
So for colonists, they start to say, well, wait a minute, I thought having English liberty meant that I am free in the context of my colonial society, I have representation in my colonial legislature, I have certain rights when it comes to the judicial system, I have freedom of commerce, I have all these kind of things that are protected by English constitutionalism.
00:14:42.240 --> 00:15:02.080
And in the immediate aftermath of the Seven Years' War, you have the proclamation line limiting their settlement, you have the Stamp Act limiting their access to printed materials based on a stamp and really what amounts to censorship, different trade regulations that are going to impede their ability to free trade as they were hoping for.
00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:21.360
And so what becomes clear, you know, I've noticed in the research that I've done, is that by the time you get to the Stamp Act crisis and the late 1760s when Dickinson is writing this letters from a farmer, the colonists are coming to the realization that they have a very different understanding of liberty than what the British government believes liberty to mean.
00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:23.519
And the British are realizing the same thing.
00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:38.399
And it's that disconnect over how people are learning about their liberties that I think leads to some of the intractable disputes that are going to give way to, well, if we have this understanding and you have this understanding, there's nothing left for us to argue about.
00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:42.240
And it just becomes now a movement for political separation.
00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:47.840
This kind of calls to mind for me the differences in generations as well.
00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:56.879
You know, at the start of the American Revolution, Benjamin Franklin, for example, he's 70 years old versus someone like James Madison who is 25.
00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:59.519
So there's definitely a generational difference there.
00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:07.600
And I'm assuming Ben Franklin is experiencing a very different kind of colonial America than James Madison, what he grew up in.
00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:13.200
And, you know, we know these men were thinking about what does liberty mean?
00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:20.240
But your explanation really shines light on why that question became so important during this time period.
00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:31.200
It's this difference in, I guess, definition of what liberty meant given by the British Crown or the Parliament versus what colonists think their liberty is.
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:34.320
And so it sounds like this period of curtailment.
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:39.840
Again, you mentioned kind of the settlement line, paper due to the Stamp Act or other taxes.
00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:42.960
Is that what leads to the American Revolution?
00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:47.840
Is that kind of the catalyst for the conflict that arises?
00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:56.080
Yeah, I mean, I think that the causes of the American Revolution will be an evergreen scholarly debate for many years to come.
00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:09.920
I think what I'm noticing is I think part of one one of the causes is this uh disconnect about what it means to have freedom in a society defined by those freedoms.
00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:20.960
And that debate that we see colonists like Franklin or Madison or Dickinson having is just as evergreen as the revolution itself, right?
00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:23.200
I mean, we still have those arguments today.
00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:33.359
And I think if we're going to try to see some of the revolution from a vantage point that we can understand, it's that they don't have it all figured out, right?
00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:41.839
I mean, uh John Dickinson, a lot of what I have been thinking about, Dickinson in particular, comes from Jane Calvert's new biography of Dickinson, which is a fantastic uh book.
00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:44.000
Everybody should check it out, Penman of the Revolution.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:50.880
But Dickinson is one of these examples, much like Franklin, who they're really testing ideas.
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:52.079
They're they're experimental.
00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:56.799
I mean, Franklin and the Albany Plan of Union, even before the Seven Years' War, is a big experiment.
00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:03.599
Like he is trying to figure out is there a way to unite the colonies and some of our indigenous allies under this definition, right?
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:05.519
And again, this is a very optimistic reading.
00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:10.880
I'm sure we can also read the ways these people are also trying to preserve their own self-interest and things like that.
00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:28.880
But I also think if we're going to look for causes of the revolution, sorting out the meaning of liberty is a really big piece of a lot of these people's understandings of why they're starting to resist and what's motivating them to go protest in the streets.
00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:35.599
And I think that's an important piece if we want to understand, you know, it's one thing for Dickinson or Franklin to be writing these things and pamphlets.
00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:39.519
It's another thing to get a bunch of people to sign up for an army that's going to fight against the British.
00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:55.440
And so a lot of their efforts are not just about how do I understand liberty, but how am I going to communicate this and really teach it to the rest of the American population that this is happening and we need to be guardians of our own liberties.
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:58.799
And in the same process, they have to negotiate with that audience as well.
00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:09.440
So when they have protesters against the Stamp Act and the Sons of Liberty have to respond to what the mob is telling them, just as much as they can prescribe some of this to the people themselves.
00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:19.839
You know, I see it as part of this dialogue and conversation that isn't necessarily, you know, they don't just sit down in August of 1765 and say, let's start a revolution, guys.
00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:23.759
It's a long discursive process, this argument and discussion.
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:28.160
And it's why a lot of them aren't their goal is not separation at the beginning.
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:31.759
I mean, we think the revolution is this thing that's coming, right?
00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:35.839
It's this looming over the edge, but in 1768, they don't know that, right?
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:38.720
Dickinson doesn't know that the revolution's going to happen.
00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:46.240
And in fact, he's a great example of someone who really is very much so committed to trying to preserve ties to Britain as long as he can.
00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:47.759
And Franklin's the same way.
00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:58.559
So, I mean, yes, there are, you know, there are turning points for every all of the different founders, but one of the things when I teach the American Revolution class, I always encourage students when we learn about the revolution, we tend to look forward, right?
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.839
We stand in 1765 and we look forward to 76.
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:07.920
Well, I want to encourage us to, as we move through that timeline, don't forget to look backward too.
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:16.160
That when you get to 68 or 74, when the first Continental Congress meets, they're looking at the moments that they've experienced.
00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:17.519
They can't look ahead.
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:29.039
And so that's where this understanding of English constitutionalism is constantly in their conversation, in their dialogue, because as you said, the federal constitution isn't coming for another 20 years.
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:31.519
So they don't know that that's on the horizon.
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:37.920
It's more of a conversation of, well, how did we get here and how are we going to cope with the moment in front of us?
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:42.400
And so that's why I think a lot of these debates are recurrent, they're dynamic, right?
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:46.079
Their opinions change, there's a lot of debate and discourse.
00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:50.319
And it's not just one kind of straight line to the declaration.
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:55.680
This is something that comes to my mind quite frequently when I'm, you know, engaging in history.
00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:59.119
It's that the American Revolution is not inevitable.
00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:04.559
And I think sometimes we look back and we're like, oh, Civil War, that was inevitable, or this event or that event.
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:05.440
But it's not.
00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:09.359
And there's these really key moments that lead up to it.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:19.359
But to your point, the American Revolution is kind of the culmination of all of these moments, events, all these things from the past.
00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:37.920
And when we think about that moment of conflict and everything that happens before, I'm assuming that there was not just this conversation about what does liberty mean, which as you referenced, that's while we hear from people like Ben Franklin, James Madison, and so on, we hear their thoughts.
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:48.079
This is something that's happening across different ages, ethnicities, even though we don't have record of some folks and what they were thinking about it, geography, different colonies.
00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:51.119
So there's a lot that has to happen to get to this point.
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:59.680
But what does the thought process look like in terms of balancing liberty and trying to define what it means for the colonies with practical?
00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:04.079
Concerns about stability and security?
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:05.920
Yeah, it's a great question.
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:15.279
I think for the revolutionaries, that balance becomes more important in certain moments than in others, right?
00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:21.519
So when they're trying to get people in the streets to protest the Stamp Act, security isn't their primary concern, right?
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:36.079
But when they're trying to set up a continental army and they need people to follow orders and answer militia musters and set up a draft into the Continental Army, security and maybe curtailing some liberties becomes more important.
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:40.480
And I think that dynamism is recurrent throughout the revolution.
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:47.519
And then of course, when we get to the post-revolutionary period, when we get to the 1780s, security becomes the big concern of the day.
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:58.880
I mean, the Shaysites in Massachusetts or the lack of security and fear that Britain's just going to invade again and we don't have a federal government strong enough to defend the United States.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:04.559
That's where some of the curtailing of those liberties takes place in the form of a national constitution, right?
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:07.920
They they see the revolution's excesses have gone too far.
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:09.920
At least that's that's one interpretation.
00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:14.400
But I also think that they are very mindful of that balance.
00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:20.400
It's almost clear that they know that there will never be a perfect balance between liberty and security, right?
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:23.039
You can't have complete liberty, you can't have complete security.
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:27.039
And they draw a lot of their thinking from what they're seeing around them.
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:33.440
So one of the great indicators of this is if you look at the grievances in the Declaration of Independence.
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:47.759
So the we we fondly remember the poetic text of the Declaration, but the grievances are really important to kind of getting inside the heads of colonists as they're experiencing the day-to-day.
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:53.119
And actually, my former PhD advisor, Rob Parkinson, has a new book coming out about the grievances.
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:54.319
Um, that's fantastic.
00:23:54.319 --> 00:24:08.799
But what they show us is that the colonists are targeting specific actions that they see the British government having taken that infringed on their liberties in a way that also infringed on their security.
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:14.000
So one of the examples, the third grievance, the famous grievance around representation, right?
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:17.200
This is where we get the idea of no taxation without representation, right?
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:30.160
Well, it was actually a grievance more about the fact that Parliament had stopped the colonies from adding representatives to their colonial legislatures as they expanded westward.
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:37.680
So they had passed the proclamation line in 1763 to stop colonies from moving westward and potentially getting into conflicts with Native Americans.
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:37.920
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:42.000
Because they had just fought this big war where they're trying to protect the colonists from that.
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:42.240
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:48.079
And as you rightly pointed out, things like the Stamp Act, the revenue was meant specifically to pay for protection of the colonies.
00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:54.720
It's a big I think you you can probably find USS3 textbooks that say, well, you know, they wanted the Americans to pay off the debt.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:57.200
And it's like, actually, that isn't at all what that tax was for.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:02.880
The tax was specifically for protecting the colonies from Native Americans, from the French, from a future war.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:11.839
So that was one big priority, but they also prevented each individual colony from when they would expand westward and establish, say, a new county or a new town.
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:20.640
Typically, if that county established enough population, then they would get representation in their colonial legislature.
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:28.160
But to discourage that westward settlement, Parliament was saying, actually, you can settle if you want, but you're not going to get any more representatives in your assembly.
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:39.119
And our the British government appointee, the governor of the colony and his governor's council, they didn't want to have to work with this like a huge colonial legislature.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:49.119
And the complexities of that, I pointed out just to say when you say something like the rallying cry of no taxation without representation, it's not just about the fact that they don't have a say in parliament.
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:56.799
It's about the way parliament views the idea of representation, is increasingly at odds with the way colonists themselves view it.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:05.599
And they think representation is the way we express our freedom, we express our interest in government, the way we hold government accountable.
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:07.359
It's also the way we protect ourselves.
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:14.000
It's an instrument of security because if the government's doing something we don't want, then we have representatives to help us take recourse.
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:33.440
And so when parliament kind of infringes on that liberty or restricts that liberty or tries to change it in a way that the colonists are really uncomfortable with, it shows us that they see any threat to liberty as also a threat to their security, that they those two things are interrelated with one another.
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:38.720
And so when they list these grievances, it's part of that balance that they're objecting to.
00:26:38.720 --> 00:27:17.599
I mean, in a more kind of visceral example, Jefferson's famous grievance outlining how the British government is turning Native Americans, enslaved persons, and foreign mercenaries, specifically like Hessian mercenaries who have arrived in North America, it's a very strong statement that Jefferson makes about there's an anxiety that the king is actually siding with all the people who used to be America's enemies, whether it's the Native American frontier nations who now the British are enlisting to fight against the rebelling colonists, the German states that reflect some of the European politics of the day that the North American colonists don't really care about.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:24.160
But then they're also inciting insurrections among enslaved people to try to get them to rise up against colonial enslavers.
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:28.079
And we see this with Dunmore's proclamation in Virginia in 1775.
00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:47.519
And I guess what I point to that grievance as well to show those are freedoms and liberties that the colonists have particularly come to understand, that they get protection from Native Americans, that they have a liberty to enslave, that they have these are these are parts of their colonial society that have been built up over the generations.
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:54.400
And when the king refuses to preserve those things, it's a bridge too far to their security.
00:27:54.400 --> 00:28:02.160
They're afraid for the security of their estates if the people they enslave can join an armed force to fight against them.
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:19.839
And so I think the grievances are a really good window into what Americans are thinking at the moment, at least the Americans who are involved in the declaration, what they're thinking about this meaning of liberty and security and what they value, what they balance, what they want to see addressed in the moment of the revolution.
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:24.799
So, Zach, you just brought up like a million more questions that I want to ask you.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:27.920
However, we are towards the end of our program.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:31.680
I might have to have you back on the podcast so we can explore further.
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:44.799
But as we wrap up, there is kind of one pressing thought because the way that you're laying out this history, you see the mindset behind Britain and why they're taking the action that they're taking.
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:49.839
You also see the colonists and you better understand why they're responding the way that they are.
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:55.759
And I kind of see the logic behind why Britain is levying these taxes.
00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:56.559
It makes sense.
00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:58.720
They're trying to protect the colonists.
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:12.000
The whole no taxation without representation, it kind of loses some of that, like, you know, patriotic vigor when you think about, well, you know, folks aren't supposed to be settling beyond a certain boundary line, and they are.
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:19.200
So again, it just helps you better understand history and why things are playing out, why they're making the decisions they're making.
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:23.039
Why is it important to approach history in this way?
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:30.480
How does it help us understand not just American history at this point, but how does it also inform our present?
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:43.039
You know, one of the things that I've seen a lot of my work tries to think about how these conversations are debates about ideas, sure, but they're also debates about how to get those ideas to the people.
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:47.920
In other words, how to teach people and to educate them on your position.
00:29:47.920 --> 00:30:07.599
So for the British, it's really important that we instruct Americans on how they can access their liberties in a productive way in a new empire that's much more expanded than it was before, that has a lot of problems to sort out, and we need them to understand why this system has to work a certain way.
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:23.519
For the Americans, they're almost approaching it in the exact same way by saying we really need to teach people about why these fundamental liberties and these natural rights are so important to the way the colonial societies have worked since the 17th century.
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:30.400
If we let them go, if we give up some of these freedoms, well then we aren't really Britons anymore.
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:32.960
We aren't entitled to those English liberties anymore.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:36.160
We're just vassals of the English state at that point.
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:41.519
And so what I see in this story is two very different visions.
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:44.400
Neither vision is particularly wrong, right?
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:51.279
I think sometimes we have a tendency to want to say one side was right, one side was wrong, and that's the end all be all.
00:30:51.279 --> 00:31:01.279
I don't necessarily think that the British are wrong in suggesting that the way that English liberty works plays out the way they're trying to teach the Americans.
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:06.079
No, you don't get the same level of representation, but that's okay because colonies just can't, right?
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:07.279
It won't work that way.
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:10.000
And the British aren't wrong in presenting that thesis.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:17.279
But I also think the American colonists aren't wrong to suggest these are liberties and norms that they have lived by for generations.
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:34.400
And I think maybe one of the lessons to take away is that, especially in the context of an educational dialogue, when two sides that have very different opinions decide they are no longer willing to learn from each other, that's when the shooting starts for the American Revolution.
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:45.599
That's when we reach that impasse where two different groups just simply can't converse anymore because they feel like the other side is completely unwilling to learn anything from their position.
00:31:45.599 --> 00:32:04.000
And I think in a time when we have such intense polarization, we have a lot of discord over even the meaning of the founding in a lot of ways, we should take a lesson from some of the revolutionary moments where this educational impasse can have really damaging effects to a society.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:11.680
And as much as the colonists are willing to go along with it for the purposes of the revolution, a lot of them later in their life reflect on this.
00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:13.920
And you can see some of the changes.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:24.400
You know, I think of the very famous curate Montpelier, you guys have a sign, I just walked by it today, of the very famous letter that James Madison writes in 1822 to William Barry about education.
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:31.359
And, you know, he's he has that great quote about needing to arm ourselves with knowledge and if we want to be our own governors, right?
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But in that letter, he also says that the great aspiration of a free people should be to understand that liberty and learning go hand in hand.
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And those two things have to be balanced with each other, they have to be appreciated along with each other, and that if you want to prioritize liberty, you also have to be willing to learn, whether it's from people who agree with you or disagree with you.
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And I just think the fact that Madison here in 1822, decades after he's involved in all these revolutionary moments, is able to reflect on that and understand.
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I like to think that maybe he's reflecting on the fact that sometimes there are moments where it's better to learn from others and not to just assume that there's nothing you can learn from them and show that willingness and that openness to the other side.
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And maybe, maybe not.
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Maybe in 1822, Madison would say, no, the British were wrong.
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But I like to think that maybe in his older age, he's starting to look back and say, you know, that we always have something to learn.
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I think that's one of the most intriguing aspects about Madison is that some scholars criticize him for changing his mind on things.
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But I think that is such an asset that he is willing to hold strong in his opinions because he's done his research.
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He's this really profound intellectual person.
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However, he is not above listening to somebody else's ideas and changing his mind.
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And your conversation today about the American Revolution, for example, it's not British were wrong, colonies were right, or vice versa.
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There is so much complexity interweaved all throughout.
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And it's this complexity and nuance that informs the present.
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It informs all those little moments, all those decisions.
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And this really key point that you touch on is a theme we haven't fully, I would say, explored in the podcast before the idea that liberty and learning go hand in hand.
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And in order to have liberty, you have to have learning.
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And that means listening and understanding and being open.
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And that is something I see less of.
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I think we all need a little bit more of that listening because we don't want to get to that impasse point where we think we have nothing to learn from someone else or another group or whoever it may be.
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So thank you for that message.
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I think it's very profound.
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Absolutely.
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Don't thank me.
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It's James Madison, right?
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But yeah, I think there's always stuff to learn from the founding.
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And I think that this complexity that you're pointing to and the contingency of the past is something that we should remind ourselves of in the present because things are just as complicated and contingent now as they were then.
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Well, thank you so much, Dr.
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Zachary Dybel, for being here at Montpelier with us today.
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Great conversation.
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I appreciate you guys having me.
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And thank you to all of our listeners.
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I hope you enjoyed this show.
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Please share it with your friends and family.
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And join us again in two weeks as we consider the Constitution.
