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Welcome to Cooperative Developer Stories at Cooperation Works Podcast.
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I'm your host, Tara Williams.
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Can't wait to hear your stories.
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Hey folks, and welcome to Cooperative Developer Stories, the podcast where we get curious, get honest, and get inspired by the people building the cooperative economy, one community at a time.
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Every episode we pull up a chair with co-op developers, practitioners, educators, organizers, and movement builders to talk about what's really happening in cooperative development.
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We share real stories from the field, hard-won lessons, and conversations about the people and relationships behind this work.
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And today, we have a great opportunity to reflect on a long career in cooperative development.
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Our guest, Kim Koontz, is retiring after decades of working with and supporting cooperatives.
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Kim helped found the California Center for Cooperative Development and has been a longtime member of the Cooperation Works community, sharing her experience and learning alongside other developers across the country.
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So as Kim gets ready for her next chapter, we wanted to sit down with her to hear some of her stories and the lessons from her career.
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We'll talk about how she found her way into cooperative development, how the work has changed,
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what she's learned along the way, and what she hopes newer developers will carry forward.
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Kim, congratulations on your retirement.
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We're glad you're here.
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Let's get into it.
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So before we jump into the hard questions, can you tell me who are you, where are you joining from, who you work for, and how long you've worked as a co-op developer?
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My name is Kim Koontz and I'm with the California Center for Cooperative Development.
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And I have been in co-ops for, well, over 30 years, I think, a very, very long time.
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I love the work that I do, honestly, and I feel really lucky.
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I like the work because you can see an impact and a difference, really making a difference in people's lives.
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I like the ecosystem.
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I like the other people that I work with.
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And I think that's a really important part of any career is like meeting people that you share an outlook with that you can talk to and share visions that are similar and also have the respect that you can disagree and still have a lot of respect for one another.
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And that's what I really like about this field.
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I really like the idea of empowering people to take control of their lives.
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That's what brings me to co-ops.
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How did you get into co-op development in the first place?
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I think like many people,
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kind of, I guess I could say sort of stumbled in it.
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I was, I'd finished, almost finished graduate school and I had been working in a number of jobs in, I had done a thesis on childcare and I was working in a job with the state where I was doing a research project on children's programs.
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And then a friend of mine said, hey,
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a friend of mine for graduate school, hey, there's this position at UC Davis with a new center for cooperatives and they want somebody that knows about childcare.
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And so, okay, that's interesting.
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So I applied, I got an interview, I did my personal crash course on what a co-op was, and I went into the interview and knew a lot about childcare, but not much about co-ops, and I got the job.
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And so that's how I started with, I was with the UC Davis Center for Cooperatives for 14 years and built a program.
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At that time, that program was set up to where they had two sections of co-ops, non-ag and ag.
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And I joined, they had in the non-ag sector had recognized that they would look at mostly just housing, child care, and food.
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That's all they were looking at at first.
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And so as I worked at the Center for Cooperatives, I kind of expanded, learned more about co-ops, did some
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publications while I was there, learned A lot.
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It was a great introduction and became involved with Cooperation Works in the very, very early stages and met some of the people that I still hold very dear today in those first
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cooperation works, trainings and gatherings and everything.
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Can you tell me a little bit about what the experience of working with groups is like as a co-op developer?
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When you brought in the 1st place and they're like, hey, can you help me?
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What does that really look like in real life?
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Well, it looks a lot of different ways.
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I mean, to be honest, they're really, really different.
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Like sometimes people enter in, well,
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Here's why these cooperative principles are so good and help to guide us because I always tell staff, when somebody calls up and says, I want to start a co-op, it's a red flag.
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It's not really, and that has held true to me.
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Most people that say, I want to start a co-op, we kid around and say, yeah,
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Find two more people and then call us back.
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But when people get together, there's that small group that just think co-ops are cool and they wanna start one and they wanna run it exactly how they want it to be run.
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But then most people really have a need.
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There's a core need that they have.
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I think that there also is a small group of people that just wanna start a co-op because they think it's cool.
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And I don't think that is the most effective to sustain a co-op because people have to have
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a real purpose.
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And that's why I think it's really important, especially with some groups, to start with a vision and mission.
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Let's make sure everybody is on the same page because a lot of times I notice when groups get together that you can just hear in the way that they talk about it, they're all over the place of what they want.
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And so that's one way to kind of corral people.
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Let's talk about what do you mean by what you say here?
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What is the vision and what is the mission of this
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of this co-op, but that there's some people that have already been working together for a long time and they're just formalizing it.
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So I think there's just a real range of people.
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But the thing that brings me and makes me the most, where I have the biggest heart is for people who are disempowered and have had a life where
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they have to get along to get along.
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And they've never had really a chance to have real power in the marketplace, maybe in their family they have.
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maybe in some other areas, but they really haven't been able to use the gifts that they have and the knowledge that they have in a way that moves their life forward, whether it's through economically bettering themselves, creating housing that stability, creating a place to get a product that they can't get someplace else.
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All those different things are
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what is achieved through a co-op.
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And it's really exciting to see people and usually working with disempowered groups, especially as a white person, I think starting with groups of color in particular, they are very, very suspect.
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But even white groups that have been disempowered, really, really suspect.
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Oh yeah, yeah, I'm gonna be in charge.
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Yeah, sure, sure.
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And so it's really, really important to create opportunities to let them see that they are in charge.
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And I always feel like one of the big, great things that signal that this is going to move forward is when people start disagreeing with me and arguing with me and pushing back on with me to say, well, what about this?
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No, I don't know if I like that.
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says, I trust you enough to say what I think.
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and that I feel like I have the standing and I'm empowered to say what I think.
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This is my organization and I'm going to own it.
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I think that process of seeing someone take control, seeing groups and individuals take control and see the gifts they always knew that they had, but weren't able to have an opportunity to exercise.
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I think that's.
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Just such a wonderful experience.
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So what have you learned from doing this work, reflecting back on your 30 years plus doing this work?
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Is this something that you're like, wow, I've really come along on this huge journey.
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And now that I'm at the end here, getting close to at least this chapter, what have you learned and how did you learn it?
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I'm going to tell you, I think you're always learning.
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You never are there.
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I remember one time I really had a very close relationship with my grandmother.
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And I remember asking her one time, we called her mom, all of us, all the grandkids called her mom.
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Mom, what does it feel like to be older?
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Do you feel wise?
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Do you feel like you know so much?
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And she said, I look in the mirror and I say, who is that old lady?
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And I just think that that is really what life is about, right?
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We're always learning, we're always growing.
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And in co-op development, that's one of the things that I love is that there's always new problems that come up, new challenges, new ways to apply the co-op and new industries.
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I mean, this is another thing about co-op development is that you can't form a co-op
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apart from the industry that it's in, right?
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So I've learned about so many different industries and different things I never even thought I would be interested in or would have thought interesting.
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We did one on, we're doing a biogas project about how to deal with pollution caused by the farting and burping of cows.
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How do you help smaller farmers to be able to take advantage of opportunities to capture that energy
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and become more environmental.
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Another ag co-op was, you know, a mobile slaughter unit.
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Like I never knew, you know, all kinds of things about that that are just kind of interesting, even though they're not things I would ever think that I'm interested in.
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And then even down to systems and work and like even in the cleaning co-ops, you know, how dangerous the products are.
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You know, it is a really dangerous industry, cleaning.
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And so that's why the quotes that we do are creating, are green cleaning.
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And what I found with that, we learned that, hey, you know what, products that say they're green, they don't even list the ingredients.
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And actually you can mix your own products.
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So we have a whole weird.
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developed a whole new recipes for all these different cleaning products that are cheaper to make.
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You know exactly what's in them and you could say that they're good to the workers and to the people that they work with.
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So it's constantly learning about new things and new ways of doing it.
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You know, it's just, it's a really exciting feel because of that.
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And then, you know, there's always just, I have to add that there's the people factor with any co-op, you know, we are, we all have our,
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issues, and people, especially in co-ops where you have to work the closest together, especially like worker and housing in particular, there can be the most conflict in those co-ops because you can't avoid each other.
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You go to work, you have to work with each other for whatever your shift is,
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You live in a community, you have to deal with them, So, we always are, it's always a constant learning curve of how can we develop ways to really focus on what's the good of our community, what's the good of the co-op.
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and how can we best make decisions with that in mind?
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If you were talking to a brand new developer, somebody just getting started, where would you tell them to start this learning journey?
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At the risk of sounding like I'm kissing up, I think Cooperation Works is an excellent place to start that journey because you're in a community of professionals who have been around a long time, who respect each other and don't, you know, there's
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There's very few co-op developers that are know-it-alls, honestly.
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Most of us, we realize what we don't know and
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realize that it's a journey that we're always on.
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And I think it's an opportunity.
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I mean, cooperation works the training, that's where I started.
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And it's not the nice thing about the training that I went through and that I hear from my colleagues at CCCD is this is it's not a training that says sit down in your seat, learn this stuff.
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It's an interactive training.
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So it's building that community.
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of people that you can rely on.
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Because some of those people that I first met in co-ops, it's getting to be less true as I get older, but they're the people that I call on that I feel comfortable with to say, I have this problem.
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Do you have any ideas?
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And that is a really, really nice thing to have.
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And so I really do, honestly, I think cooperation works is just wonderful.
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So what would you say helped you get
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better at being a co-op developer over time.
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Experience, you know, just doing a lot.
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And this is where, you know, we don't ever work in isolation.
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We have to continually be talking to each other and learning.
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And one of the things I really have found valuable in my life, and I try to make an environment for the other people at CCCD, is
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learning and education.
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It's something that you continually need to be engaged in, not only because it makes you better, but because it makes you like your job better.
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All of us, I think, enjoy learning and enjoy expanding our horizons, enjoy going and seeing what people are doing out in the field and keep our minds moving in terms of, Wow, this works.
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I don't know about that.
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But all those things are part of enriching our process and making us better at what we do.
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So I think probably the main thing is, you know, the importance of having a nice collegial group that you're working with that you can draw on and to recognize also all of the projects like I know sometimes we have these grants that we have to write or interviews that we go through for grants that say, Oh, how about partnerships?
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You know, it's like,
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We don't probably have any project where we're just working one-on-one with a group of people who wanna start a co-op because they need to be linked in with other professionals.
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If they are creating any kind of business, they need to know about that particular area of business, right?
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They need to network with other folks in other fields that maybe are not co-op people.
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They need to get help from lawyers.
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They need to get help from business planners.
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They need to set up their books.
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They need to do all those different kinds of things and help developer, at least my experience, is to try to bring in those to refer and then also to help that relationship to be successful, not just to say,
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hey, go call this person, go call that person.
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Because you as a co-op developer, you need to be aware of all those different things so that you are having, you know, you're really creating a network, a well networked process so that you're not just, you know, one part of all these different things that they're trying to figure out.
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I think there's all different kinds of co-op development, but I think that it's important to try to realize you need those other professionals, but you also need to have relationships with them so you are
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and doing the best job as a co-op developer that you can.
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I also wish I just had you with me in Building Blocks because one of our participants asked, how do you do that?
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How do you network?
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How do you make sure that they're getting the right advice at the co-op when you're not being expected to kind of be that sage on the stage as opposed to really being like a guide on the side?
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How does that work?
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I think doing a lot of research and that's one of the strengths too in business planning is
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have to, when you create a business plan or feasibility, you have to really look at all the different things going on in that community, wherever that co-op is going to be.
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So you have a projection, A, is there a business there, a core of a business?
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How much can they make?
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The same thing, whether it's a conversion or anything like that.
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You really need to be sure that there is a business there.
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What's something harder about this work than people might expect?
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I think people don't realize, like,
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just talking about the business part of it, people don't realize that it is really, you have to be sure that whatever the goal is, it's reachable.
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If somebody has an idea, it's really different than a single entrepreneur.
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As a single entrepreneur, you can go out and say, oh, I really make this kind of purse that I really like doing that.
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And I think if I made or jewelry, let's say,
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I really want to sell my jewelry and I can create my jewelry and whatever I want.
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And you can go out as a single person, just try it.
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And if it doesn't work, fine.
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It's just on you.
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But when you're in a co-op, you have to, well, what kind of jewelry is going to be made?
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Well, how much are we going to charge?
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Who's going to do what?
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Well, can we make, where's our market for that jewelry?
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You have to be a lot more conscious about it.
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And I think people don't realize that a lot of it is really a lot of
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financial.
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It's really important to co-op development because whether it's a business or whether it's housing, how are we going to get the down payment?
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Where's the funding going to come from?
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It's a lot of research in a lot of different aspects that you have to do in order to make a co-op work and a lot of it has to do with financial and you really better pay attention to the finances part of that.
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So you have to know that a lot
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A lot of us might begin the field thinking that it's a lot of community development, but it really is, it's community and business development, right?
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So I think that's a difficult part.
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And then navigating people can sometimes be really, really challenging.
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Do you have a favorite cooperation works principle?
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I do.
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I mean, they all work with each other, but I think the commit to the co-op is 1.
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I think I probably have two, but
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That one because you really have to know this is the way that you want to do the business and that's the best organization for you and then to follow through on it.
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And committee to co-op, I think sometimes people think they like co-ops, but then they realize that it demands a lot of compromise.
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It's not as easy as you think because, you know,
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People are self-interested.
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People want their way.
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I work with a lot of co-ops sometimes that people that come to me and say, you don't know what a co-op is.
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They are not running the co-op right.
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And I'd say, well, tell me about that.
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It sounds like they're not doing what you want.
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And that's very often, and it is really hard.
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Compromise is not easy, but we've made so much progress in consensus decision making and all these processes that really help us to listen, that slow us down, but that don't lock us by very dominant people.
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And so I think always going back, the continuous education is really, really important.
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And that's part of committing to co-op that we know this is the business model.
00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:19.999
We got to keep learning about it and keep looking at it.
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:25.999
And then I think the movement, the co-op is part of a movement that you're not isolated when you start a co-op.
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:37.999
And I think that's another part that is a really important thing is to get outside yourself, you know, and realize that there's a lot of other co-ops out there.
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:44.999
There are a lot of ideas that you need to be exposed to and that you need to be sympathetic to other co-ops and
00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:52.999
Even if you don't agree with everything that they do and every way that they operate, they are a co-op, and so they're part of the community.
00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:53.999
And we want to expand that community.
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:57.999
You know, I mean, who doesn't want something to expand that they think is great?
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:03.999
You already talked about this a little bit, but how has Cooperation Works helped you strengthen your practice?
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:07.999
It has been throughout my career so important.
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:12.999
You know, that we had a listserv and started
00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:17.999
about, let me think, it must have been in the 90s, 1990s.
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:21.999
And we had listservs then.
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:25.999
We had conference calls instead of Zoom meetings.
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:31.999
But it's always been a part, the discussion, the collegiality and disagreements.
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:40.999
I mean, there have been some pretty, there have been some times that have been very challenging and cooperation works and times when
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:43.999
that were not my favorite times with Cooperation Works.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:59.999
But the people, there have always been people that have been super important to me and have been super crucial to my career in terms of, I don't mean my career in terms of growing and getting a better job.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.999
I mean in terms of doing my work better.
00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:05.999
It's those connections.
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:12.999
I think Cooperation Works has gone through some iterations that were not ones that were my favorite.
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:21.999
But overall, it's always been a very important organization and always built me.
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:29.999
Even through tough times, when you don't agree with everything that's going on, you still learn, you learn from that.
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:31.999
All right, one last question to wrap this up.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:38.999
What piece of advice would you have for someone who's thinking about getting into this work?
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.999
Well, to learn first is find out if it's what you want.
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:44.999
But I think I'm really excited.
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:45.999
I love what I do.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:50.999
I love co-op development and I can speak to the positive.
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:58.999
But if you're not committed to that, if it's not something that interests you, you shouldn't go into something that you don't realize you have to like people a lot.
00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:03.999
You have to like to not, you know, you have to like to empower people.
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:13.999
Like there are some people that really are good at helping others, but they like the helping part, not necessarily empowerment part.
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:19.999
It's different, you know, it's difficult to kind of, I like to think of what I do as more coaching.
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:26.999
And it's hard to coach people because people do what they want, you know, they're not going to do everything that I want.
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:42.999
But yeah, what an exciting process of seeing that, of seeing people make those decisions, helping them to maybe see other viewpoints, see well, this could be a drawback or let's look at some other examples.
00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:47.999
Can I give you, link you up with this person that could tell you about their experience, that kind of thing.
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:49.999
It's different than just a helping profession.
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.999
I think it's different than
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:52.999
than social work.
00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:55.999
I think it's really true community and economic development.
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And so if you like that, go into it.
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:01.999
It's very exciting for all the reasons I've said.
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:07.999
Kim, thank you so much for joining us and for sharing some of the stories and lessons from your career.
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:11.999
And congratulations again on your retirement.
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:21.999
You've been an important part of the Cooperation Works community, and I know many developers have had the opportunity to learn with you and from you over the years.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:31.999
As you move into this next chapter, we're grateful we had the chance to capture a little bit of that experience here and share it with the next generation of cooperative developers.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:39.999
To everyone listening, we hope Kim's story has given you something to think about and something you can bring back into your own practice.
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:50.999
If you'd like to connect with more cooperative developers, visit the Cooperation Works member locator to explore our national network of developers and development centers.
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:57.999
And don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and share this episode with your network.
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:04.999
EveryShare helps us connect developers, exchange ideas, and grow the cooperative movement together.
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:10.999
Thanks for listening to Co-op Developer Stories, a podcast from Cooperation Works.
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:19.999
Until next time, keep learning from one another, keep sharing what you know, and keep building the relationships that make cooperation work.
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:28.000
Kim, congratulations again and enjoy retirement.
00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:07.999
Welcome to Cooperative Developer Stories at Cooperation Works Podcast.
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I'm your host, Tara Williams.
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Can't wait to hear your stories.
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Hey folks, and welcome to Cooperative Developer Stories, the podcast where we get curious, get honest, and get inspired by the people building the cooperative economy, one community at a time.
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Every episode we pull up a chair with co-op developers, practitioners, educators, organizers, and movement builders to talk about what's really happening in cooperative development.
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We share real stories from the field, hard-won lessons, and conversations about the people and relationships behind this work.
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And today, we have a great opportunity to reflect on a long career in cooperative development.
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Our guest, Kim Koontz, is retiring after decades of working with and supporting cooperatives.
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Kim helped found the California Center for Cooperative Development and has been a longtime member of the Cooperation Works community, sharing her experience and learning alongside other developers across the country.
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So as Kim gets ready for her next chapter, we wanted to sit down with her to hear some of her stories and the lessons from her career.
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We'll talk about how she found her way into cooperative development, how the work has changed,
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what she's learned along the way, and what she hopes newer developers will carry forward.
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Kim, congratulations on your retirement.
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We're glad you're here.
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Let's get into it.
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So before we jump into the hard questions, can you tell me who are you, where are you joining from, who you work for, and how long you've worked as a co-op developer?
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My name is Kim Koontz and I'm with the California Center for Cooperative Development.
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And I have been in co-ops for, well, over 30 years, I think, a very, very long time.
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I love the work that I do, honestly, and I feel really lucky.
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I like the work because you can see an impact and a difference, really making a difference in people's lives.
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I like the ecosystem.
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I like the other people that I work with.
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And I think that's a really important part of any career is like meeting people that you share an outlook with that you can talk to and share visions that are similar and also have the respect that you can disagree and still have a lot of respect for one another.
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And that's what I really like about this field.
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I really like the idea of empowering people to take control of their lives.
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That's what brings me to co-ops.
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How did you get into co-op development in the first place?
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I think like many people,
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kind of, I guess I could say sort of stumbled in it.
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I was, I'd finished, almost finished graduate school and I had been working in a number of jobs in, I had done a thesis on childcare and I was working in a job with the state where I was doing a research project on children's programs.
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And then a friend of mine said, hey,
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a friend of mine for graduate school, hey, there's this position at UC Davis with a new center for cooperatives and they want somebody that knows about childcare.
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And so, okay, that's interesting.
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So I applied, I got an interview, I did my personal crash course on what a co-op was, and I went into the interview and knew a lot about childcare, but not much about co-ops, and I got the job.
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And so that's how I started with, I was with the UC Davis Center for Cooperatives for 14 years and built a program.
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At that time, that program was set up to where they had two sections of co-ops, non-ag and ag.
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And I joined, they had in the non-ag sector had recognized that they would look at mostly just housing, child care, and food.
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That's all they were looking at at first.
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And so as I worked at the Center for Cooperatives, I kind of expanded, learned more about co-ops, did some
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publications while I was there, learned A lot.
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It was a great introduction and became involved with Cooperation Works in the very, very early stages and met some of the people that I still hold very dear today in those first
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cooperation works, trainings and gatherings and everything.
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Can you tell me a little bit about what the experience of working with groups is like as a co-op developer?
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When you brought in the 1st place and they're like, hey, can you help me?
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What does that really look like in real life?
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Well, it looks a lot of different ways.
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I mean, to be honest, they're really, really different.
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Like sometimes people enter in, well,
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Here's why these cooperative principles are so good and help to guide us because I always tell staff, when somebody calls up and says, I want to start a co-op, it's a red flag.
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It's not really, and that has held true to me.
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Most people that say, I want to start a co-op, we kid around and say, yeah,
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Find two more people and then call us back.
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But when people get together, there's that small group that just think co-ops are cool and they wanna start one and they wanna run it exactly how they want it to be run.
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But then most people really have a need.
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There's a core need that they have.
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I think that there also is a small group of people that just wanna start a co-op because they think it's cool.
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And I don't think that is the most effective to sustain a co-op because people have to have
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a real purpose.
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And that's why I think it's really important, especially with some groups, to start with a vision and mission.
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Let's make sure everybody is on the same page because a lot of times I notice when groups get together that you can just hear in the way that they talk about it, they're all over the place of what they want.
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And so that's one way to kind of corral people.
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Let's talk about what do you mean by what you say here?
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What is the vision and what is the mission of this
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of this co-op, but that there's some people that have already been working together for a long time and they're just formalizing it.
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So I think there's just a real range of people.
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But the thing that brings me and makes me the most, where I have the biggest heart is for people who are disempowered and have had a life where
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they have to get along to get along.
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And they've never had really a chance to have real power in the marketplace, maybe in their family they have.
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maybe in some other areas, but they really haven't been able to use the gifts that they have and the knowledge that they have in a way that moves their life forward, whether it's through economically bettering themselves, creating housing that stability, creating a place to get a product that they can't get someplace else.
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All those different things are
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what is achieved through a co-op.
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And it's really exciting to see people and usually working with disempowered groups, especially as a white person, I think starting with groups of color in particular, they are very, very suspect.
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But even white groups that have been disempowered, really, really suspect.
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Oh yeah, yeah, I'm gonna be in charge.
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Yeah, sure, sure.
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And so it's really, really important to create opportunities to let them see that they are in charge.
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And I always feel like one of the big, great things that signal that this is going to move forward is when people start disagreeing with me and arguing with me and pushing back on with me to say, well, what about this?
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No, I don't know if I like that.
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says, I trust you enough to say what I think.
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and that I feel like I have the standing and I'm empowered to say what I think.
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This is my organization and I'm going to own it.
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I think that process of seeing someone take control, seeing groups and individuals take control and see the gifts they always knew that they had, but weren't able to have an opportunity to exercise.
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I think that's.
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Just such a wonderful experience.
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So what have you learned from doing this work, reflecting back on your 30 years plus doing this work?
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Is this something that you're like, wow, I've really come along on this huge journey.
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And now that I'm at the end here, getting close to at least this chapter, what have you learned and how did you learn it?
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I'm going to tell you, I think you're always learning.
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You never are there.
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I remember one time I really had a very close relationship with my grandmother.
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And I remember asking her one time, we called her mom, all of us, all the grandkids called her mom.
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Mom, what does it feel like to be older?
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Do you feel wise?
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Do you feel like you know so much?
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And she said, I look in the mirror and I say, who is that old lady?
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And I just think that that is really what life is about, right?
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We're always learning, we're always growing.
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And in co-op development, that's one of the things that I love is that there's always new problems that come up, new challenges, new ways to apply the co-op and new industries.
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I mean, this is another thing about co-op development is that you can't form a co-op
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apart from the industry that it's in, right?
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So I've learned about so many different industries and different things I never even thought I would be interested in or would have thought interesting.
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We did one on, we're doing a biogas project about how to deal with pollution caused by the farting and burping of cows.
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How do you help smaller farmers to be able to take advantage of opportunities to capture that energy
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and become more environmental.
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Another ag co-op was, you know, a mobile slaughter unit.
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Like I never knew, you know, all kinds of things about that that are just kind of interesting, even though they're not things I would ever think that I'm interested in.
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And then even down to systems and work and like even in the cleaning co-ops, you know, how dangerous the products are.
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You know, it is a really dangerous industry, cleaning.
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And so that's why the quotes that we do are creating, are green cleaning.
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And what I found with that, we learned that, hey, you know what, products that say they're green, they don't even list the ingredients.
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And actually you can mix your own products.
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So we have a whole weird.
00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:11.999
developed a whole new recipes for all these different cleaning products that are cheaper to make.
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You know exactly what's in them and you could say that they're good to the workers and to the people that they work with.
00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:22.999
So it's constantly learning about new things and new ways of doing it.
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You know, it's just, it's a really exciting feel because of that.
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And then, you know, there's always just, I have to add that there's the people factor with any co-op, you know, we are, we all have our,
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issues, and people, especially in co-ops where you have to work the closest together, especially like worker and housing in particular, there can be the most conflict in those co-ops because you can't avoid each other.
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You go to work, you have to work with each other for whatever your shift is,
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You live in a community, you have to deal with them, So, we always are, it's always a constant learning curve of how can we develop ways to really focus on what's the good of our community, what's the good of the co-op.
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and how can we best make decisions with that in mind?
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If you were talking to a brand new developer, somebody just getting started, where would you tell them to start this learning journey?
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At the risk of sounding like I'm kissing up, I think Cooperation Works is an excellent place to start that journey because you're in a community of professionals who have been around a long time, who respect each other and don't, you know, there's
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There's very few co-op developers that are know-it-alls, honestly.
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Most of us, we realize what we don't know and
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realize that it's a journey that we're always on.
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And I think it's an opportunity.
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I mean, cooperation works the training, that's where I started.
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And it's not the nice thing about the training that I went through and that I hear from my colleagues at CCCD is this is it's not a training that says sit down in your seat, learn this stuff.
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It's an interactive training.
00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:09.999
So it's building that community.
00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:10.999
of people that you can rely on.
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Because some of those people that I first met in co-ops, it's getting to be less true as I get older, but they're the people that I call on that I feel comfortable with to say, I have this problem.
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Do you have any ideas?
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And that is a really, really nice thing to have.
00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:32.999
And so I really do, honestly, I think cooperation works is just wonderful.
00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:34.999
So what would you say helped you get
00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:39.999
better at being a co-op developer over time.
00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:44.999
Experience, you know, just doing a lot.
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And this is where, you know, we don't ever work in isolation.
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We have to continually be talking to each other and learning.
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And one of the things I really have found valuable in my life, and I try to make an environment for the other people at CCCD, is
00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:03.999
learning and education.
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It's something that you continually need to be engaged in, not only because it makes you better, but because it makes you like your job better.
00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:24.999
All of us, I think, enjoy learning and enjoy expanding our horizons, enjoy going and seeing what people are doing out in the field and keep our minds moving in terms of, Wow, this works.
00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:25.999
I don't know about that.
00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:31.999
But all those things are part of enriching our process and making us better at what we do.
00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:58.999
So I think probably the main thing is, you know, the importance of having a nice collegial group that you're working with that you can draw on and to recognize also all of the projects like I know sometimes we have these grants that we have to write or interviews that we go through for grants that say, Oh, how about partnerships?
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You know, it's like,
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We don't probably have any project where we're just working one-on-one with a group of people who wanna start a co-op because they need to be linked in with other professionals.
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If they are creating any kind of business, they need to know about that particular area of business, right?
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They need to network with other folks in other fields that maybe are not co-op people.
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They need to get help from lawyers.
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They need to get help from business planners.
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They need to set up their books.
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They need to do all those different kinds of things and help developer, at least my experience, is to try to bring in those to refer and then also to help that relationship to be successful, not just to say,
00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:46.999
hey, go call this person, go call that person.
00:15:47.000 --> 00:16:04.999
Because you as a co-op developer, you need to be aware of all those different things so that you are having, you know, you're really creating a network, a well networked process so that you're not just, you know, one part of all these different things that they're trying to figure out.
00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:14.999
I think there's all different kinds of co-op development, but I think that it's important to try to realize you need those other professionals, but you also need to have relationships with them so you are
00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.999
and doing the best job as a co-op developer that you can.
00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:23.999
I also wish I just had you with me in Building Blocks because one of our participants asked, how do you do that?
00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:24.999
How do you network?
00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:37.999
How do you make sure that they're getting the right advice at the co-op when you're not being expected to kind of be that sage on the stage as opposed to really being like a guide on the side?
00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:38.999
How does that work?
00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:44.999
I think doing a lot of research and that's one of the strengths too in business planning is
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:52.999
have to, when you create a business plan or feasibility, you have to really look at all the different things going on in that community, wherever that co-op is going to be.
00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:57.999
So you have a projection, A, is there a business there, a core of a business?
00:16:58.000 --> 00:16:58.999
How much can they make?
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The same thing, whether it's a conversion or anything like that.
00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:05.999
You really need to be sure that there is a business there.
00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.999
What's something harder about this work than people might expect?
00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:12.999
I think people don't realize, like,
00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:23.999
just talking about the business part of it, people don't realize that it is really, you have to be sure that whatever the goal is, it's reachable.
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:28.999
If somebody has an idea, it's really different than a single entrepreneur.
00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:36.999
As a single entrepreneur, you can go out and say, oh, I really make this kind of purse that I really like doing that.
00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:39.999
And I think if I made or jewelry, let's say,
00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:43.999
I really want to sell my jewelry and I can create my jewelry and whatever I want.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.999
And you can go out as a single person, just try it.
00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:48.999
And if it doesn't work, fine.
00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:49.999
It's just on you.
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:54.999
But when you're in a co-op, you have to, well, what kind of jewelry is going to be made?
00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:56.999
Well, how much are we going to charge?
00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:58.999
Who's going to do what?
00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.999
Well, can we make, where's our market for that jewelry?
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:03.999
You have to be a lot more conscious about it.
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:08.999
And I think people don't realize that a lot of it is really a lot of
00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:09.999
financial.
00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:18.999
It's really important to co-op development because whether it's a business or whether it's housing, how are we going to get the down payment?
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.999
Where's the funding going to come from?
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:32.999
It's a lot of research in a lot of different aspects that you have to do in order to make a co-op work and a lot of it has to do with financial and you really better pay attention to the finances part of that.
00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:34.999
So you have to know that a lot
00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:43.999
A lot of us might begin the field thinking that it's a lot of community development, but it really is, it's community and business development, right?
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:47.999
So I think that's a difficult part.
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.999
And then navigating people can sometimes be really, really challenging.
00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:55.999
Do you have a favorite cooperation works principle?
00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:56.999
I do.
00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:02.999
I mean, they all work with each other, but I think the commit to the co-op is 1.
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.999
I think I probably have two, but
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:17.999
That one because you really have to know this is the way that you want to do the business and that's the best organization for you and then to follow through on it.
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:25.999
And committee to co-op, I think sometimes people think they like co-ops, but then they realize that it demands a lot of compromise.
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:30.999
It's not as easy as you think because, you know,
00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:31.999
People are self-interested.
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:33.999
People want their way.
00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:38.999
I work with a lot of co-ops sometimes that people that come to me and say, you don't know what a co-op is.
00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.999
They are not running the co-op right.
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:45.999
And I'd say, well, tell me about that.
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.999
It sounds like they're not doing what you want.
00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:50.999
And that's very often, and it is really hard.
00:19:51.000 --> 00:20:06.999
Compromise is not easy, but we've made so much progress in consensus decision making and all these processes that really help us to listen, that slow us down, but that don't lock us by very dominant people.
00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:11.999
And so I think always going back, the continuous education is really, really important.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:16.999
And that's part of committing to co-op that we know this is the business model.
00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:19.999
We got to keep learning about it and keep looking at it.
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:25.999
And then I think the movement, the co-op is part of a movement that you're not isolated when you start a co-op.
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:37.999
And I think that's another part that is a really important thing is to get outside yourself, you know, and realize that there's a lot of other co-ops out there.
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:44.999
There are a lot of ideas that you need to be exposed to and that you need to be sympathetic to other co-ops and
00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:52.999
Even if you don't agree with everything that they do and every way that they operate, they are a co-op, and so they're part of the community.
00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:53.999
And we want to expand that community.
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:57.999
You know, I mean, who doesn't want something to expand that they think is great?
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:03.999
You already talked about this a little bit, but how has Cooperation Works helped you strengthen your practice?
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:07.999
It has been throughout my career so important.
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:12.999
You know, that we had a listserv and started
00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:17.999
about, let me think, it must have been in the 90s, 1990s.
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:21.999
And we had listservs then.
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:25.999
We had conference calls instead of Zoom meetings.
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:31.999
But it's always been a part, the discussion, the collegiality and disagreements.
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:40.999
I mean, there have been some pretty, there have been some times that have been very challenging and cooperation works and times when
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:43.999
that were not my favorite times with Cooperation Works.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:59.999
But the people, there have always been people that have been super important to me and have been super crucial to my career in terms of, I don't mean my career in terms of growing and getting a better job.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.999
I mean in terms of doing my work better.
00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:05.999
It's those connections.
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:12.999
I think Cooperation Works has gone through some iterations that were not ones that were my favorite.
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:21.999
But overall, it's always been a very important organization and always built me.
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:29.999
Even through tough times, when you don't agree with everything that's going on, you still learn, you learn from that.
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:31.999
All right, one last question to wrap this up.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:38.999
What piece of advice would you have for someone who's thinking about getting into this work?
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.999
Well, to learn first is find out if it's what you want.
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:44.999
But I think I'm really excited.
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:45.999
I love what I do.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:50.999
I love co-op development and I can speak to the positive.
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:58.999
But if you're not committed to that, if it's not something that interests you, you shouldn't go into something that you don't realize you have to like people a lot.
00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:03.999
You have to like to not, you know, you have to like to empower people.
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:13.999
Like there are some people that really are good at helping others, but they like the helping part, not necessarily empowerment part.
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:19.999
It's different, you know, it's difficult to kind of, I like to think of what I do as more coaching.
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:26.999
And it's hard to coach people because people do what they want, you know, they're not going to do everything that I want.
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:42.999
But yeah, what an exciting process of seeing that, of seeing people make those decisions, helping them to maybe see other viewpoints, see well, this could be a drawback or let's look at some other examples.
00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:47.999
Can I give you, link you up with this person that could tell you about their experience, that kind of thing.
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:49.999
It's different than just a helping profession.
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.999
I think it's different than
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:52.999
than social work.
00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:55.999
I think it's really true community and economic development.
00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:57.999
And so if you like that, go into it.
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:01.999
It's very exciting for all the reasons I've said.
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:07.999
Kim, thank you so much for joining us and for sharing some of the stories and lessons from your career.
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:11.999
And congratulations again on your retirement.
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:21.999
You've been an important part of the Cooperation Works community, and I know many developers have had the opportunity to learn with you and from you over the years.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:31.999
As you move into this next chapter, we're grateful we had the chance to capture a little bit of that experience here and share it with the next generation of cooperative developers.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:39.999
To everyone listening, we hope Kim's story has given you something to think about and something you can bring back into your own practice.
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:50.999
If you'd like to connect with more cooperative developers, visit the Cooperation Works member locator to explore our national network of developers and development centers.
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:57.999
And don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and share this episode with your network.
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:04.999
EveryShare helps us connect developers, exchange ideas, and grow the cooperative movement together.
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:10.999
Thanks for listening to Co-op Developer Stories, a podcast from Cooperation Works.
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:19.999
Until next time, keep learning from one another, keep sharing what you know, and keep building the relationships that make cooperation work.
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:28.000
Kim, congratulations again and enjoy retirement.
