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Welcome to Beyond 60 Unscripted.
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We are celebrating freedom, we're celebrating wisdom, courage, and possibilities that come with living beyond 60.
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I'm your host, Ruth Williams Brinkley, and I have so much fun doing this podcast.
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Today, we're going to talk about the stories we carry, the ones we inherited as children, the ones we told ourselves over the years, and the ones we finally have the courage to rewrite and rethink.
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For many black women, care has always been deeply personal.
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It's connected to identity, it's connected to beauty, to family, and it's connected to the messages we received about who we were supposed to be.
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But what happens when we began questioning those messages?
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When we revisit painful experiences with the wisdom of age, and when we discover that something we've carried for decades might become the inspiration for an entirely new chapter.
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Our guest today is Michelle Tapp Roseman, an accomplished writer, communications professional, and educator whose career has included work in media, teaching, and international experiences in Thailand.
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Michelle is the author of Hairlooms, The Untangled Truth About Loving Your Natural Hair and Beauty, which features conversations with 32 individuals, including, including, get this, Dr.
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Maya Angelo.
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She's also the creator of Shelly and the Curl Lovely Chronicles, a children's book series that's inspired by her own experiences growing up.
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Michelle has described her creative journey as finding beauty in the ashes of painful experiences.
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And I think there's something powerful in that idea for all of us who are navigating life beyond 60.
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So before we get into your story, Michelle, I want to share something I came across that speaksly that speaks very directly to what we're going to explore today.
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I recently read an essay in Literary Hub by Lisa Ross Sparr called A Poetics of Risk on publishing my debut novel in my 60s.
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Listen up, folks.
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This woman published her debut novel in her 60s.
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Lisa was already an accomplished poet and educator when she ventured into writing fiction.
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Her first novel took shape over nearly two decades alongside the demands of work and family.
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And by the time she was in her 60s, she faced a question many of us recognize.
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Was she willing to take a chance on something new?
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Would anybody care?
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Would anybody read it?
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What I found especially interesting about her perspective on risk is that it had changed with age.
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She reflected on how the experiences, losses, and joys of a full life had made some of her early experiences about reputation and rejection feel less important.
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You know, she found that inspiration in novelist Penelope Fitzgerald, whose first novel was published when she was 61.
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I love that because it challenges the idea that we need to have everything figured out early in life.
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Sometimes, sometimes, the confidence to begin comes from everything we've already lived through.
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Now, I want to welcome Michelle and go back to the beginning of her journey because I imagine the writer she is today has been shaped by a lifetime of experiences.
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Michelle, welcome to Beyond 60, Unscripted.
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Hi Michelle.
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How did those experiences shape the person that you are today?
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First of all, thanks so much for having me.
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And I would say that those experiences shaped where I am today because they really opened the door for me to be creative.
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I'm really a creative at heart, even though I have worked in the social sciences field and done a lot of public communications at heart.
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I really love to be creative.
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I wrote my first piece when I was four years old.
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It was a piece of music, a composition, rather.
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And moving on from there, I just wrote lots of short stories and poems.
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So I would say that really it's a culmination of the things that I love to do.
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I'm just sort of switching gears a bit.
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Oh my goodness.
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So you said writing became uh and creating became important to you at four.
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What at that time, you know, as you grew older, was it something you always dreamed of pursuing?
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Or did that passion, the passion for like doing what you're doing today, did that evolve over time?
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The passion for wanting to write, I was always seeking out ways to communicate.
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So for me, it was a natural evolution.
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Like I said, first starting out with writing songs at four and short stories along the way.
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So by the time I went to high school and college, it was a natural fit for me to move into a career of journalism because it really fan the flame of my passion and my creativity.
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And so writing was one way for me to express myself.
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So I would say it was a natural progression for me.
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Okay.
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So was there a moment when you began to see yourself as an author?
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I see that there's a particular moment.
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What I would say is that as I took sort of a panoramic view of my life, I realized that some of the experiences that I had mirrored those of other people.
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And that if I shared them, not thinking necessarily of a book, but if I shared them, it would resonate, they rather would resonate with someone else.
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And so I would say it wasn't a particular eureka moment, but just like I said, just looking throughout my life and listening to other people and how I related to them and things they would ask me.
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It just sort of let me know hey, there's something here that I have that potentially can be a gift for someone else.
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And so I can share my story.
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And that was the genesis of some of the books that I've written.
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Was it challenging?
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One more question about this line, and then I want to move on to something.
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What was it challenging to make that transition from writing professionally to writing stories that were so personal and deep?
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Say there were definitely some challenging moments because, as you know, when you're writing professionally, even though you're in it, there are a lot of details that you leave out because they're just not appropriate for the audience.
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Yeah.
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And I remember when I was writing my book, Hair Looms, and I had um an editor reviewing it.
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And one of the things that she always challenged me, I would give her my drafts and my iterations of it, and she would end up saying, Michelle, there's no blood on the pages.
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And I was thinking, What do you mean there's no blood on the pages?
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I know I was gonna ask you, what does that mean?
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Well, what it means is that I, in her estimation, and it was actually true at that point, I had not really poured out my soul on page.
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So to go back to what you specifically asked me, when I'm writing for a federal government agency, they're not looking for me to pour out my soul on page.
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They're looking for me to do what they have asked me to do.
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And so when I'm writing personally, there's a level of vulnerability and really digging into some of the pain points of my personal life.
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So those are two different arenas.
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And so, yes, there are definitely areas of difficulty uh that I've experienced along the way because it causes me to remember and to reflect.
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And sometimes all of the reflections and things that I remember are not positive.
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Yeah.
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You know, in that vein, I want to ask you a personal question.
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Uh, what is something about Michelle Chap Roseman that people would never discover simply by reading your professional biography?
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That I am a big kid at heart.
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Yes.
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You look at the things that I've done.
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Yes, I've trained in Asia, trained people to write professionally, uh, done some television, radio work, again, just focusing on sort of the hard sciences or more professional things.
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At heart, I am a big kid, which is why it was really easy for me to parlay my skills into a children's book series, because in many instances, I feel like I see light through the lens of little kids.
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So, yes, that's something people would never know about me.
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Oh my goodness, I I wouldn't have guessed that about you.
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So that that's that that's really a great thing because when you see things, I suspect, when you see things through the eyes of a child, you're always seeing the possibilities and the creativity of what can be.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely, I agree.
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And I think what happens many times is that as we get older, we tend to lose that childlike uh uh believability that we can do anything and that whatever we see is possible.
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So, yes.
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Yep, yeah.
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Well, you know, one of the things I find fascinating about getting older is discovering that some of our most deeply held beliefs were formed before we were old enough to know they were even being formed, or to know for sure that they were beliefs, or to question them.
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So, you know, you've spoken a lot, um, a fair amount, about your experiences as a child.
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And I'm gonna delve a little bit deeper in the personal piece because, Michelle, you have a powerful story to tell.
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You've spoken about experiencing colorism and being teeth about your hair as a little girl.
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I'd love to explore how those experiences shape your relationship with yourself.
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Um, do you mind if we go there a little bit?
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Oh, not at all.
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Yeah, not at all.
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So I know it's funny you asked if there was a particular moment when I realized I was supposed to be writing.
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I didn't remember that moment, but I do remember the first instance when I felt like the color of my skin and my hair was wrong.
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I was four years old and I was happened to be at an event with some family members, and some of the older girls saw me, and for whatever reason, they just started to taunt and tease me and throw rocks at me.
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And while they were doing that, they were just saying mean and hateful things about my skin and my hair.
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And at four years old, you don't really understand the meaning of words, but obviously being pelted with rocks, you know that that's something that's very hurtful.
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And I began to take it on myself as if there was something inherently wrong with me.
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So at that moment, I would say it's uh no pun intended, but colored how I saw myself.
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And as as life went on, things, things that we realize about ourselves, we don't, they're not always at the forefront of our mind.
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But if you can take a look over your life and some of the decisions we make, some of the relationships that we're in, the way that we carry ourselves, oftentimes it's attached to a pain point.
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And so for me, I can look at those areas and see how they definitely shaped how I felt about myself.
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And it's the other thing I want to say as well is that feelings can override education and acuity and all and money, all of those things, because you can be one can be very accomplished in those areas.
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But if they're the soul is wounded, it will show up every time and it will uh cause people to do things that are counterintuitive based on what uh it seems like they should do.
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So yeah.
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That that is so correct.
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Um, and were there moments, Michelle, when you realize that the beliefs that that you picked up and carried since childhood were still influencing your confidence of self-image?
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Yeah, definitely.
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I would say I became more aware of myself.
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I was sort of a late bloomer.
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Definitely late 30s, early 40s.
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And I noticed some of the career choices or how I showed up in a room, some of the relationships that I was in.
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Um, I I got married late in life.
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I got married when I was 41 and um getting ready to celebrate almost 20 years of marriage.
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Well, congratulations.
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Well, thank you.
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Uh, leading up to that point, uh, I was I was in a lot of abusive relationships.
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I elected to be in them.
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And what I realized is that not only do we attract who we are, but we accept many times what we believe based on where we are on the inside emotionally.
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And so I can definitely see looking over those like those instances in my life through counseling, through prayer, and having my eyes open, that those decisions all tie together.
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And it's not until we are able to pivot and there is some true healing that you will see that I began to see differences in my life with different decisions.
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Wow, that's powerful, Michelle.
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Um you know, I think we all deal with some of these things, but I I just respect and admire you so much for being willing to come out and talk about them because so many women, and I wouldn't say it's just women, it's women and men, but particularly women, um, experience what you experience and and don't come out and talk about it.
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So so thank you for being so open and and and so vulnerable uh about that.
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So you you talked about um your growing up and you talked about um yeah how you're you a lot of who you are today came out of pain.
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Is is that did I get that right?
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Uh yes, I wouldn't say all of it because I I don't some of what, yes, yeah, I would say some of it.
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I don't want to paint an unrealistic picture, but there are definitely pain points.
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And so having to, I think what happens, or what happened for me at least, when I hit certain milestones in my life, my perspective began to shift and I would do a little more digging on the inside.
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And when I was when I hit 50, I definitely realized that I had fewer years ahead, likely than I had behind.
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But and when I hit 60, it was a little different because not only did I realize that, but then I started to think about legacy.
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I started to think about what did I have, not just materialistically, but what did I have on the inside in terms of my story that I could hand to my nieces, to my nephews, to other people that are around me?
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What type of baton could I pass?
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Yes, yes.
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If if you can then sit down with that little girl that you once were, what would you tell her about what you just said?
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You know, your hair is one thing, but I would say your hair, her hair, that little girl that was you and the little girls who who may hear this somehow in the future, what would you tell those little girls or tell your little girl, the little girl you were?
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I would definitely tell her and them that you are perfect the way you are.
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That doesn't mean you do everything right, but what it does mean is that God created you the way you were supposed to be: your skin, your hair, the things that you like to do.
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They're not silly, they're not wrong, they're simply you.
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The the things that you are drawn to, the people that you tend to like, the activities that you like to engage in, those things are a part of you, and you are inherently there's nothing wrong with that.
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And it doesn't need to be corrected, it doesn't need to be fixed.
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And even when you step in a room and there are other people there, there's no need for comparison.
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You can simply compliment, you can be who you are, and you can shine with somebody else, but you don't have to dim your shine because someone else is there.
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So those are some of the things that I would tell me at four years old and other little girls.
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You know, that is so powerful.
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You know, I and I think many of us reach a stage in life where where we start to look back at experiences differently.
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And that's what what you've just said, really.
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We recognize things we didn't have the language to understand.
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And you referenced that as well when you're four years old and and people are calling you names or throwing things at you, you don't know exactly why or what, but you know it's not a positive thing.
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Um, you found a very powerful way to describe that process through the image of ashes.
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And I mentioned that earlier, but tell us about that ashes metaphor.
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Um, what do ashes represent to you and why did that particular image speak to you?
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I'll start with your last question.
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The reason why that particular analogy resonated with me during my period where I told you there were a lot of dark times in my life.
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One of the sources of strength is the Bible for me.
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And um, and one of the parts of the Bible in the Old Testament or the first part of the Bible in Isaiah 61, 3, there is a verse and it talks about the Lord giving us beauty for ashes.
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And so as I've gotten older, it's funny because I used to hear that verse growing up as a kid, but you're not really thinking about anything when you're 12 and your 20s and 30s.
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Like I said, by the time I got to 60, I was like, I have been through some fire, and so I understand about ashes.
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So I'm at the ash stage.
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And you know, ashes can mean different things to different people, right?
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Absolutely.
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But as I started to reflect on my life and the verse, and even do a little digging into possibly why that metaphor was in the Bible, I realized that there's really some interesting things about ashes, three in particular, uh, that ashes can be used as a pest repellent.
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They can also be used to make soil sweet or ready for planting.
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And then also two, they are used to provide traction in really icy situations.
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And as I started to think about that after doing some research and looking at my life, I realized that as I've been able to dig through some of the times that really disintegrated in my life, they have provided traction for me and move in terms of moving forward and also enabling somebody else to be anchored in my own story that I'm able to share.
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And all of us know what it's like to have pests in our life of pessimism or doubt or fear or those negative insecurities.
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And when you look back through the ashes of what you've been through and realize your resilience and some of the things that you actually may have forgotten that are on the inside of you, that helps, that has helped me to sort of override some of the pesty uh situations or the pesty thoughts that will want to bombard my mind.
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And then finally, when I think about the final analogy for ashes, that it makes soil sweet.
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Soil is a place where things are able to grow.
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And particularly as it relates to my Shelly and the Curl Lovely Chronicles book, that really is one of the sweetest things that has come out of my childhood.
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Um, because Shelly is me.
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I am Shelly.
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She's chocolate, she's dark, she's a little chunky on the chunky side.
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And every time I go in to write another story, every time I go in to write another journey in her life, I'm actually digging back through the ashes of my life.
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And I'm thinking that I went through when I was four years old, and that I can pull out and help another four, five, six, or seven-year-old girl.
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So that's the sweetness that comes out of some of the things that were more painful in earlier parts of my life.
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And and and I want to pick up on that uh a little bit.
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So, as you have talked about um uh uh the the little girl Shell Shelly, right?
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You called her Shelly.
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Yeah.
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Um, and and we'll talk about Shelly a little bit later.
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Uh, but um you were you were working through those experiences and writing, how did that change how you saw yourself, or had you already made that journey before then?
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And I and I the question I'm asking, I guess, is do people heal and and sort of get over it?
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Or do they is healing a process of becoming?
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That's a great question.
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And I would say the latter, and I would add on to that as well.
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I think it is a process, and I would also say there is really no cookie cutter answer because there's some people I know that have healed sort of instantaneously based on trauma, then there are other people like me who it's like an onion.
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Where you peel off a layer one year and then something happens and you're triggered.
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And so you pull off another layer.
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So I think typically people would say they err or lean more on the process side, but I don't want to make a blanket statement because there are other people who have just been able to move forward at a rapid pace.
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Yeah.
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:24.319
So it really, it would just, it would just depend.
00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:27.440
But I will tell you this either way is fine because it's personal.
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:27.839
Yeah.
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:30.079
And so there's no need for judgment.
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:38.160
Or I would even say to people who may be listening that there's no need to feel like you're behind the curb or, you know, oh, I should be farther along.
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:42.319
I always say be where you are until you're not there anymore.
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:44.799
I I think that's that's wonderful.
00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:48.160
Whether it's healing or whether it's the ashes you talked about.
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:48.960
Absolutely.
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.960
Ashes may mean, maybe bring back one thing for you.
00:22:53.039 --> 00:23:01.599
It may bring back something, something else for somebody else, but all the same, those ashes and can be used for healing.
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:04.400
And it's a it's a personal journey.
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:06.160
I love how you said that.
00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:12.000
Just it's a form of grieving, I think, in some respects, because grief is such a personal journey.
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:15.279
And working through all these feelings is personal.
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:22.400
Um how has working through these experiences changed the way you approach other parts of your life?
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:25.920
Do you see any parallels in other parts of your life, Michelle?
00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:31.599
Are you referring to moving through some of the less pleasant areas of my life?
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:33.839
Anything you want to share.
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:50.720
Um, you know, you talk about the usefulness of ashes, um, how gardeners use them to sweeten the soil, but in your own life, have you used them in other parts of your life, other than your own personal healing, like working with other people or anything like that?
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:52.640
I would say so.
00:23:52.799 --> 00:24:02.880
Um I would definitely and I would speak to the process, even as it relates to work or let's say picking up new skills or working with somebody else in a new environment.
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:03.279
Yeah.
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:07.680
Just understanding that everything is not linear, that there is a process.
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:18.799
Many times there are processes and there are ebbs and flows, and there are certain cycles that we experience in every area, every facet, I will say, every phase of our life, be it professional.
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:22.160
It doesn't always have to be personal, but just in so many other areas.
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:30.480
So I would say that process, the understanding that we're being processed and going through a process, it resonates, I would say, across the board in my life.
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:34.160
I would say as I'm older though, that I'm more aware of it now.
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:34.480
Okay.
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:42.319
Sometimes I'm more aware that I'm going through a process and I don't always look at it as a bad thing, but it's just part of life.
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:44.240
It really is part of life.
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:45.039
Yeah.
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:57.039
You know, it what's fascinating about your story is that writing seems to have become one way that you've explored these experiences and shared what you've learned, and we're grateful to you for that.
00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:08.720
Um I'd love to talk a little bit now about writing as a personal journey, because I think there are some listeners who have stories inside of them that they've never quite known how to tell.
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:13.920
Um, for instance, your book, Herr Looms, uh, you you mentioned it, you haven't mentioned it yet.
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:14.880
You mentioned your other book.
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:20.079
But Herr Looms involved six years of interviewing 32 people, including Dr.
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:26.319
Meyer Angelon, who we all, uh not maybe not everybody, but many of us know and love.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:30.640
Um, what originally inspired you to begin that project?
00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:33.359
Great, wonderful question.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:36.319
I will tell you that was an aha moment.
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:41.359
Um, one of the things that I started to realize, well, let me backtrack.
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:52.240
So several years ago, when I first got married, when we got married and we were trying to have children, and through a process, I realized that I could not bear children biologically.
00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:54.880
But that was a time when I went natural.
00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:58.720
And so I decided not to wear chemicals in my hair.
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:03.519
And after a while, I noticed I was always being stopped by women.
00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:05.440
And even my husband picked up on it.
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:06.480
It's like, what is this?
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:07.440
And where do you go?
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:09.920
Someone's asking, what are you doing to your hair?
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:22.079
And it's not only what are you doing or what products are you using, but for some reason, women would come up to me and start to start telling me their hair stories, areas of pain.
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:28.319
And, you know, I don't feel good when I wear my hair this way, or I'm afraid to go into the office with my hair and an afro.
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:37.200
And it happened enough that I realized I this is something I'm supposed to talk about because their stories resonated with mine.
00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:44.880
Remember, I talked about that earlier on that many times the things that we share, you can see that someone else has a similar path.
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:56.000
So, really, after having enough of those instances, I decided, and even um I could see that the Lord was impressing on me to write the story.
00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:03.359
And he I got the inspiration for the name hairlooms, which is you know a double entendre in terms of how it sounds.
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:04.960
Do you think of heirlooms?
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:07.759
Yeah, but then also to hair looms large.
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:14.000
It's something particularly in the community of African American women that is a focal point.
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:17.680
So that was the genesis, yeah, genesis of that story.
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:19.920
And it was Oh, go ahead.
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:35.119
Yeah, I was just gonna say that was that was a hard uh, much harder to write than Shelley and the Curlovely Chronicles, because as I had said earlier, one of the persons that was reviewing my manuscript really challenged me to put blood on the pages.
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.319
And let me just say on that point, I talk about passing the baton.
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:45.200
I shared this earlier in our interview, but we really can't help people, I find, unless we go deep enough.
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:52.240
Because sometimes it's so easy to be surface, but that vulnerability is really what grabs someone else.
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:55.039
And so in writing that book, it was challenging.
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:59.599
I knew what I wanted to say, but in some instances I hadn't quite healed yet.
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:03.440
So this goes back to another question that you asked me if I had sort of fully healed.
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:14.880
And the Shelley and the Crow Lovely Chronicles, I'm in a much farther along, but in heirlooms, uh, I was sort of in the middle of a lot of uh challenging things in my life.
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:20.240
And so that was hard to write because I wanted to give something that was authentic.
00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:23.680
And uh so it just took a lot to get it out of me.
00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:24.400
Yeah.
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:31.759
You I would imagine you had to reach very deep and go to some places that maybe you hadn't visited for a while, or maybe ever visited.
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:32.799
Is that right?
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:36.480
Definitely, absolutely, absolutely, yes.
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:42.720
And when you have an editor telling you that you've got thousands of words to write, you got space to dig.
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:48.799
So a lot of space to dig and a lot of places to explore, yes.
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:54.799
No, no, the metaphor of blood on the page, I've never heard that, but it it it it makes sense.
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:56.720
It just makes sense.
00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:05.039
Um, what did you discover about yourself through listening to other people's experiences when you interviewed the 32 people?
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:07.200
What did you learn about yourself?
00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:12.720
I learned that even though we're different, we're the same.
00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:13.119
Okay.
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:14.880
When I listened to Dr.
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:19.359
Angelo speak, uh, or Kim Coles or Nicole R.
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:19.599
E.
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:30.079
Parker so many, so many times in the middle of our interviews, it was almost like it was like sitting down with a sister, almost finishing each other's words, and it's like, yes, I know what that's like.
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:31.200
Yes, I know what that's like.
00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:32.240
I remember what that's like.
00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:35.759
That's how it was for me when I was a kid or older, whatever the situation was.
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:56.880
So as I would, as I said, that we are really a lot alike in our experiences many times, are it's like one experience, which is why it's so powerful when we decide to tell it, because then it actually gives permission for someone else to tell their story or to look at a little more deeply.
00:29:56.960 --> 00:29:58.960
So that's one thing that I really realized.
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:06.880
Um, even though they're in different stages of life and work in different arenas, so many similarities, so many similarities.
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:09.920
Now, I just have to ask you this, Michelle.
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:14.000
What do you remember most vividly about your conversation with Dr.
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:14.960
Maya Angela?
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:16.880
I just have to ask.
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:21.039
Two things.
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:25.119
Two things that I remember in terms of her, I'll say her conversation.
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:26.240
I'll start there first.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:26.559
Okay.
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:31.279
She she was a well of wisdom.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:32.079
I'll bet.
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:34.799
And her words really mattered.
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:45.119
She took time with them and in speaking with me, and what she said carried weight, even if it was a side comment that was not necessarily related to the book.
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:52.720
So she was not just a wordsmith on paper, but she really chose her words wisely.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:57.119
The other thing that I would say really sticks out to me about Dr.
00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:00.319
Angelo, that was actually the second time I met her.
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:00.960
Oh, really?
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:05.839
I reminded her when I saw her, the first time I met her, I was about 18 years old.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:10.640
And remember, I talked about uh being in a relationship that was unhealthy.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:14.400
And I was in college at the time and she was actually speaking.
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.079
And so I remember leaving the arena where she was speaking.
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:20.000
It was like an intermission of sorts.
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:25.680
And so I was running to the restroom, and on the way back, who do I run into but Dr.
00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:26.319
Angelo?
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:30.799
And it was only the two of us in the hallway, and she she was very tall.
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:34.559
I'm I'm only five two, she's taller, she was much tall than I am.
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:35.759
Isn't she?
00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:36.480
She's very tall.
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:37.279
Yes.
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:41.279
So she looked down at me, and I will never forget the words she said.
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:45.200
She said, My, what a pretty little girl you are.
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:48.240
And well, that sounded like something she would say.
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:54.000
Yeah, but at that time in my life, I I completely did not feel like I was pretty.
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:58.160
I didn't feel like I was worth anything, just so many other things.
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:01.359
So for her to speak into my life at that time, she didn't even know it.
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:02.720
I reminded her.
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:04.400
That's what I remember.
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:08.400
I remember not just what she said, but how she made me feel.
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:09.200
Yes.
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:18.240
You know, and she has this saying, I may get people may not remember what you said or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:20.799
And it's you, you just said that.
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:22.960
You remember how she made you feel.
00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:24.559
And that was decades ago.
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:25.759
I will never forget that.
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:27.920
I even remember what I had on.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:29.279
Oh my goodness.
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:33.759
So she, wow, that was that was that was pretty impressive.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:35.920
So she was great.
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:46.799
What was there anything surprising or emotionally challenging for you about putting all these personal feelings and experiences and thoughts into writing?
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:50.880
You you touched on it a little bit, but could you come back to that?
00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:56.000
With what was, I guess I'd ask you what was most surprising or emotionally challenging.
00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:02.480
What's most challenging for me was reliving moments.
00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:03.359
Yeah.
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:12.640
Because when you are writing or expressing yourself and you really want to give a part of yourself to someone in that way, yeah.
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:21.200
You really can't do it unless you relive it so you can capture any nuances, any details you may have missed.
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:25.599
And and so doing, I was I had to relive it.
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:28.480
And some of those moments were very, very painful.
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:35.440
And one in particular, I talk about uh surviving sexual assault.
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:44.880
And I had to go back to the point to give details because it was relevant for that part of the story.
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:49.839
And it's funny because I knew that if I didn't go there, I would be shortchanging the audience.
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:58.799
And when I hear people who people come to me and they've actually read that part, some of them tell me that they broke down and started crying.
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:02.720
And I know that the only reason why they cried was because I cried.
00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:15.199
And so it's it's understanding that there's a place to go to and you have to relive it in order for you to really tell it and to tell it truthfully, because we can tell a story, but we're not always telling the truth.
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:23.599
And so I endeavored to really tell my story and to really put it out there and to be truthful, yeah.
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:38.239
What would you say to someone listening to to this podcast who's been carrying an idea for a book or a personal story for years, but you know, uh hasn't found the courage uh to begin yet.
00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:43.199
What would you say to that person if they ask you for your thoughts?
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:55.119
I would challenge them to reflect on a time when they had been encouraged and helped by someone else's story.
00:34:55.760 --> 00:35:01.599
And then I would encourage them to say that it's time for them to be that for someone else.
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:09.039
Because many times we tend to operate in a sponge mentality where you just soak up, soak up, soak up, and it's great.
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:16.480
And there comes a time in life when we need to be wrong dry, so to speak, and all that's on the inside comes out.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:28.239
So I would again to um to answer your question, I'd ask them to reflect on a time when they have either received a word of encouragement or there was a body of work that really helped to move them forward.
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:32.960
And then I would challenge them to do the same with their own story.
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:44.320
I would also encourage them to know that their story has value, that their story matters, and that they're here to tell that story, even if it's one person that they reach.
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:54.480
I believe that they're assigned for just particular people and that that story happened not um just to them, but it's for someone else as well.
00:35:54.639 --> 00:35:56.000
That's what I would tell them.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:58.320
I would I would agree with you.
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:10.320
So your writing has uh also become a way of sharing what you've learned with another generation, and I think that connects to an important conversation about legacy.
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:20.559
Um at you know, at this stage of life, many of us are thinking about the influence we have on the generations coming behind us.
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:29.920
Um, sometimes that means passing along family traditions, other times it means recognizing beliefs or behaviors we want to change.
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:39.119
Now, your children's series, Shelly and the Cur Lovely Chronicles, grew, and I didn't say that with the right emphasis, Shelly and the Cur Lovely Chronicles.
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:40.639
Okay, I got it out right that time.
00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:43.599
Well, your personal experiences.
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:49.519
Um, what inspired you to turn those memories into stories for young readers?
00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:57.440
It was really wanting to share what I had been through in a positive light.
00:36:57.599 --> 00:37:04.559
Because you can look, you can look at areas in your life and they may be negative, but there's always another side.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:08.719
Again, going back to if you sift through and look for the beauty, you'll find it.
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:26.000
And so really wanting to be able to share the beauty in my story, but then also to encourage young girls, because I I know at that age, when you're three to seven, that what is what we believe comes from what other people have said.
00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:33.199
And I wanted to have a hand in shaping that so that they didn't go through what I went through and starting at that early age.
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:34.079
Yeah.
00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:39.519
Uh you you've mentioned uh your father was the first person to call you Shelly.
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:42.320
Um, what does that connection mean to you today?
00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:44.480
How does what does that mean?
00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:55.760
My dad passed about two years ago, and um, I was definitely still am a daddy's girl and look just like him.
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:04.079
And so um I just he was the only one, he was the first one to call me Shelly, and so it just made sense.
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:11.280
I didn't want a pen name, I was like, no, I'll keep my name, but yeah, I will create a character based on the name that he always called me.
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:15.119
There was so much love when he would say it, you know, Shelly.
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:17.679
And so I wanted to create out of that.
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:19.199
So that's what that means to me.
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:20.400
Very, very important.
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:21.039
Yeah.
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:27.760
And and what do you hope children, children and the adults leading with them take away from your stories?
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:35.599
Especially, you know, the the two books you well, you've got several books, but what what would you want people to take away?
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:47.360
I want to take away something I said earlier that the way for little girls that when they read the books, I want them to look and see that the way God has created them is perfect.
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:56.880
I particularly have characters in there with afro-textured hair because in society that type of hair tends not to be celebrated.
00:38:57.039 --> 00:39:00.079
But in our in my book series, it is celebrated.
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:06.159
And it's not to compare it to anyone else's, but to say what you have particularly is beautiful.
00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:19.840
And so I won't want grandparents or big mamas or nanas or aunties and parents and school teachers who are passing those on to children to to say to make sure that that message resonates.
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:25.840
It doesn't need to be fixed, it doesn't need to be tamed in reference to hair that it's beautiful the way it is.
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:29.440
May need to learn how to style it, but it's beautiful the way it is.
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:30.480
That's the message.
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:31.360
Yeah.
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:44.480
And and how can we create that space for the message, Michelle, uh for honest conversations with younger generations about our own experiences without passing along all the negative parts.
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:48.800
I really think it's important to share some of the pain, but how can we create that space?
00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:50.639
Do you have thoughts on that?
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:51.599
I do.
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.000
I have some beautiful nieces.
00:39:54.639 --> 00:40:02.159
And one of the things that I intend and I'm intentional about is giving them some things I wish I had.
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:12.239
So I don't necessarily have to tell them about the pain, but for me, as an example, it would have been great to constantly hear your hair is wonderful, or oh, you're so cute.
00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:17.119
So I give them those things that I may have missed in a season.
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:24.400
So they get the benefit of it, but they don't necessarily get something that at that age they're not able to handle or necessarily would be helpful.
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:25.760
So that's how I handle it.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:26.480
Yeah.
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:32.239
Now, now your newest book, I want to spend a few moments on your newest book, Shelly and the Christmas Corn Rolls.
00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:35.199
Now, this this one explores the importance of giving.
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:37.280
Where did that being come from?
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:39.199
And how is your understanding?
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:43.440
How has your understanding of giving changed as you've gotten older?
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:47.039
Dean actually came.
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:51.039
Um, my husband and I were driving along and bridging heat.
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:55.199
So it was not uh, it was not Christmas time at all.
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:59.199
And I will say he's he's a wonderful partner and wonderful muse.
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:03.119
Sometimes I'll just say, you know, babe, I'm thinking about writing thus and so.
00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:09.440
And so he mentioned the thought of having them give, the little girls in the story give.
00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:14.239
And so from that, I told him I said, I just need a little bit of an idea and I'll take it from here.
00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:16.000
So he's like, okay, I'm gonna give you that.
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:19.360
There should be some giving in there and making sure that they give and what have you.
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:22.639
And so from that, I just started to create.
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:28.800
I just started to think in my mind of what actually could be happening in Christmas time.
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:34.559
And so I just started to think about, okay, how about cornrows?
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:39.599
And just began to write the story from there and just to imagine, I would say.
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:41.280
I just started to imagine.
00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:43.519
It's one of the things I love about this book series.
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:45.519
I just let my mind go wild.
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:47.519
Why would they have Christmas cornrows?
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:57.280
Because there's a festival taking place and they're gonna end up, you know, getting cornrows, but actually giving to the hairdresser because she was kind enough to work with them.
00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:00.880
So that the reciprocity was worked in there as well.
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:04.800
Now, when you think about that, that is just wonderful.
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:10.159
That that whole at the giving, but at the same time, you affirming as well.
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:14.079
Um, you affirming their beauty, you affirming what's important about them.
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:15.199
I love that.
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:22.320
So, so when you think about the years ahead, Michelle, what are you most excited to explore or discover?
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:27.840
I'm the most excited to explore my creativity.
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:29.599
It's boundless.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:34.079
And I think when I was much younger, I sort of felt like there was a cap on it.
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:47.840
But as I get older and having launched this book series at 60, I see that literally the sky's the limit, and that that is not just um a platitude, but it is it is really so true.
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:57.920
So I really look forward to exploring and writing more music, writing more children's books, and have and just sort of seeing what that's gonna mushroom into.
00:42:58.000 --> 00:42:58.960
That's what I look forward to.
00:42:59.039 --> 00:42:59.920
I look forward to life.
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:07.679
I look forward to more healing and being able to share my healing experiences in wonderful creative ways.
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:20.079
And and the other thing I've heard you say during our discussion um is that, and I'm I'm gonna say you didn't say this specifically, but I got the message that you're never too old.
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:25.039
Like whether you're 60, 70, or even 80, you're never too old.
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:26.480
Absolutely not.
00:43:26.719 --> 00:43:27.760
Absolutely not.
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:36.639
And that's a message that I believe people our age and older need to hear because I find that we live in a society that tends to be ageist.
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:45.920
And when you are over 40, and God forbid you show a white or gray hair, you know, people are ready to just cart you off and stick you in the corner somewhere.
00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:59.760
And what we have to realize is that we have a level of wisdom that just journeying on this life for so long that is unmatched, and is something that is valuable and is worth sharing.
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:00.639
Yeah.
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:06.159
And you know, you just put into words a lot of the thought behind the Yon 60 unscripted.
00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:13.119
It is because of the wisdom and so forth, and because we need a space to share that and to share with each other.
00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:22.159
So, so I thank you for affirming for me as well the purposes behind the Yon 60.
00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:23.440
Absolutely.
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:25.360
So glad it could be here and share.
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:26.639
I am glad too.
00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:32.800
So before we close, Michelle, um, we always like to talk about our next chapter five.
00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:39.280
There are five quick questions that help us learn a little more about how our guests are approaching this stage of life.
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:42.400
You have just been wonderful and have shared so much.
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:46.239
So I want to close with these uh five questions.
00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:48.239
The first one is about your chapter.
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:53.199
If you could describe this chapter of your life in just one word, what would that one word be?
00:44:53.679 --> 00:44:54.639
Exciting.
00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:56.000
Exciting?
00:44:56.239 --> 00:44:57.599
Yes, exciting.
00:44:57.920 --> 00:44:58.239
Okay.
00:44:58.559 --> 00:44:59.440
Your joy.
00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:03.440
What's one thing that brings you the most joy right now?
00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:04.880
Creating.
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:06.480
Loving.
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:07.519
Yeah.
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:09.519
What have you released?
00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:13.440
What's something that you've stopped worrying about as you've gotten older?
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:16.800
My voice.
00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:21.760
Many times I would try to self-edit.
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:23.920
I don't do that as much now.
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:35.360
I'm mindful, of course, I'm respectful and appropriate, but if there's something that I feel, or particularly the way I see something, my perspective, I don't self-edit as much as I used to.
00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:36.000
Okay.
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:36.880
Okay.
00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:43.280
Um, your curiosity, um, what's something you're still curious about or eager to learn?
00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:46.960
Curious about all the gifts that God put inside of me.
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:51.360
There are so many things that I've done now later in life that I've shocked myself.
00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:55.840
And I'm like, whoa, if I did that, can I do?
00:45:57.840 --> 00:45:59.760
I'm really curious about that.
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:01.840
I I really am curious.
00:46:02.079 --> 00:46:03.039
Yes, yes.
00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:08.000
And your the final five, the fifth question and final one is your younger self.
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:12.559
Um, if you would give your younger self one piece of advice, what would it be?
00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:15.599
Embrace who you are.
00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:16.800
Okay.
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:18.159
Okay.
00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:25.519
So, Michelle, thank you, thank you, thank you for just being so open and so vulnerable about your journey.
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:30.480
And thank you for sharing the experiences that have shaped the woman and the writing you are today.
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:35.360
I sincerely thank you because you have laid it all out.
00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:48.480
Um, what stays with me from our conversation is the idea that we have the ability to revisit the stories we've carried throughout our lives without them causing us excessive pain all the time.
00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:57.679
Some of these stories have brought us joy, others have left wounds that take years to understand and to heal over time.
00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:07.840
So as we grow older, um we have the opportunity to decide what those experiences will mean, but the chapter is still ahead.
00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:12.960
And I also love the reminder that creativity can emerge at any stage of life.
00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:16.159
You've said that loud and clear, it's never too late.
00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:22.800
Sometimes the work we're meant to do grows out of experiences we never imagined will become a source of inspiration.
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:27.440
So, to everyone listening, I want to leave you with this question.
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:33.679
What part of your own story might be waiting for you to revisit, reclaim, or finally share?
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:46.320
Maybe there's something you've always wanted to write, maybe there's a conversation you've been meaning to have with someone you love, or maybe there's a part of yourself you're fred you're just finally ready to embrace.
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:52.159
Whatever it is, I hope Michelle's story encourages you to explore that possibility.
00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:57.679
I'm Ruth Williams Frankly, and this has been Beyond 60 Unscripted.
00:47:57.840 --> 00:48:00.800
Remember, the best years are still ahead.
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:05.039
Until next time, keep living, keep growing, keep becoming.
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:09.840
Watch us, like us, and follow us wherever you get your podcasts.
00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:17.360
And send us your ideas about topics you would like to see us discuss here at Beyond 60 Unscripted.
00:00:04.879 --> 00:00:08.160
Welcome to Beyond 60 Unscripted.
00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:17.199
We are celebrating freedom, we're celebrating wisdom, courage, and possibilities that come with living beyond 60.
00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:23.359
I'm your host, Ruth Williams Brinkley, and I have so much fun doing this podcast.
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Today, we're going to talk about the stories we carry, the ones we inherited as children, the ones we told ourselves over the years, and the ones we finally have the courage to rewrite and rethink.
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For many black women, care has always been deeply personal.
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It's connected to identity, it's connected to beauty, to family, and it's connected to the messages we received about who we were supposed to be.
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But what happens when we began questioning those messages?
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When we revisit painful experiences with the wisdom of age, and when we discover that something we've carried for decades might become the inspiration for an entirely new chapter.
00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:30.640
Our guest today is Michelle Tapp Roseman, an accomplished writer, communications professional, and educator whose career has included work in media, teaching, and international experiences in Thailand.
00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:44.719
Michelle is the author of Hairlooms, The Untangled Truth About Loving Your Natural Hair and Beauty, which features conversations with 32 individuals, including, including, get this, Dr.
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Maya Angelo.
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She's also the creator of Shelly and the Curl Lovely Chronicles, a children's book series that's inspired by her own experiences growing up.
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Michelle has described her creative journey as finding beauty in the ashes of painful experiences.
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And I think there's something powerful in that idea for all of us who are navigating life beyond 60.
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So before we get into your story, Michelle, I want to share something I came across that speaksly that speaks very directly to what we're going to explore today.
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I recently read an essay in Literary Hub by Lisa Ross Sparr called A Poetics of Risk on publishing my debut novel in my 60s.
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Listen up, folks.
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This woman published her debut novel in her 60s.
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Lisa was already an accomplished poet and educator when she ventured into writing fiction.
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Her first novel took shape over nearly two decades alongside the demands of work and family.
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And by the time she was in her 60s, she faced a question many of us recognize.
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Was she willing to take a chance on something new?
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Would anybody care?
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Would anybody read it?
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What I found especially interesting about her perspective on risk is that it had changed with age.
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She reflected on how the experiences, losses, and joys of a full life had made some of her early experiences about reputation and rejection feel less important.
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You know, she found that inspiration in novelist Penelope Fitzgerald, whose first novel was published when she was 61.
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I love that because it challenges the idea that we need to have everything figured out early in life.
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Sometimes, sometimes, the confidence to begin comes from everything we've already lived through.
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Now, I want to welcome Michelle and go back to the beginning of her journey because I imagine the writer she is today has been shaped by a lifetime of experiences.
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Michelle, welcome to Beyond 60, Unscripted.
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Hi Michelle.
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How did those experiences shape the person that you are today?
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First of all, thanks so much for having me.
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And I would say that those experiences shaped where I am today because they really opened the door for me to be creative.
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I'm really a creative at heart, even though I have worked in the social sciences field and done a lot of public communications at heart.
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I really love to be creative.
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I wrote my first piece when I was four years old.
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It was a piece of music, a composition, rather.
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And moving on from there, I just wrote lots of short stories and poems.
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So I would say that really it's a culmination of the things that I love to do.
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I'm just sort of switching gears a bit.
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Oh my goodness.
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So you said writing became uh and creating became important to you at four.
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What at that time, you know, as you grew older, was it something you always dreamed of pursuing?
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Or did that passion, the passion for like doing what you're doing today, did that evolve over time?
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The passion for wanting to write, I was always seeking out ways to communicate.
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So for me, it was a natural evolution.
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Like I said, first starting out with writing songs at four and short stories along the way.
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So by the time I went to high school and college, it was a natural fit for me to move into a career of journalism because it really fan the flame of my passion and my creativity.
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And so writing was one way for me to express myself.
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So I would say it was a natural progression for me.
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Okay.
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So was there a moment when you began to see yourself as an author?
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I see that there's a particular moment.
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What I would say is that as I took sort of a panoramic view of my life, I realized that some of the experiences that I had mirrored those of other people.
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And that if I shared them, not thinking necessarily of a book, but if I shared them, it would resonate, they rather would resonate with someone else.
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And so I would say it wasn't a particular eureka moment, but just like I said, just looking throughout my life and listening to other people and how I related to them and things they would ask me.
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It just sort of let me know hey, there's something here that I have that potentially can be a gift for someone else.
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And so I can share my story.
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And that was the genesis of some of the books that I've written.
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Was it challenging?
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One more question about this line, and then I want to move on to something.
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What was it challenging to make that transition from writing professionally to writing stories that were so personal and deep?
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Say there were definitely some challenging moments because, as you know, when you're writing professionally, even though you're in it, there are a lot of details that you leave out because they're just not appropriate for the audience.
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Yeah.
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And I remember when I was writing my book, Hair Looms, and I had um an editor reviewing it.
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And one of the things that she always challenged me, I would give her my drafts and my iterations of it, and she would end up saying, Michelle, there's no blood on the pages.
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And I was thinking, What do you mean there's no blood on the pages?
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I know I was gonna ask you, what does that mean?
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Well, what it means is that I, in her estimation, and it was actually true at that point, I had not really poured out my soul on page.
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So to go back to what you specifically asked me, when I'm writing for a federal government agency, they're not looking for me to pour out my soul on page.
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They're looking for me to do what they have asked me to do.
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And so when I'm writing personally, there's a level of vulnerability and really digging into some of the pain points of my personal life.
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So those are two different arenas.
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And so, yes, there are definitely areas of difficulty uh that I've experienced along the way because it causes me to remember and to reflect.
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And sometimes all of the reflections and things that I remember are not positive.
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Yeah.
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You know, in that vein, I want to ask you a personal question.
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Uh, what is something about Michelle Chap Roseman that people would never discover simply by reading your professional biography?
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That I am a big kid at heart.
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Yes.
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You look at the things that I've done.
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Yes, I've trained in Asia, trained people to write professionally, uh, done some television, radio work, again, just focusing on sort of the hard sciences or more professional things.
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At heart, I am a big kid, which is why it was really easy for me to parlay my skills into a children's book series, because in many instances, I feel like I see light through the lens of little kids.
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So, yes, that's something people would never know about me.
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Oh my goodness, I I wouldn't have guessed that about you.
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So that that's that that's really a great thing because when you see things, I suspect, when you see things through the eyes of a child, you're always seeing the possibilities and the creativity of what can be.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely, I agree.
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And I think what happens many times is that as we get older, we tend to lose that childlike uh uh believability that we can do anything and that whatever we see is possible.
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So, yes.
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Yep, yeah.
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Well, you know, one of the things I find fascinating about getting older is discovering that some of our most deeply held beliefs were formed before we were old enough to know they were even being formed, or to know for sure that they were beliefs, or to question them.
00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:14.080
So, you know, you've spoken a lot, um, a fair amount, about your experiences as a child.
00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:20.879
And I'm gonna delve a little bit deeper in the personal piece because, Michelle, you have a powerful story to tell.
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You've spoken about experiencing colorism and being teeth about your hair as a little girl.
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I'd love to explore how those experiences shape your relationship with yourself.
00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:35.360
Um, do you mind if we go there a little bit?
00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:36.639
Oh, not at all.
00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:37.600
Yeah, not at all.
00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:44.080
So I know it's funny you asked if there was a particular moment when I realized I was supposed to be writing.
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I didn't remember that moment, but I do remember the first instance when I felt like the color of my skin and my hair was wrong.
00:10:52.720 --> 00:11:05.120
I was four years old and I was happened to be at an event with some family members, and some of the older girls saw me, and for whatever reason, they just started to taunt and tease me and throw rocks at me.
00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:11.600
And while they were doing that, they were just saying mean and hateful things about my skin and my hair.
00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:20.639
And at four years old, you don't really understand the meaning of words, but obviously being pelted with rocks, you know that that's something that's very hurtful.
00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:26.159
And I began to take it on myself as if there was something inherently wrong with me.
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So at that moment, I would say it's uh no pun intended, but colored how I saw myself.
00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:42.480
And as as life went on, things, things that we realize about ourselves, we don't, they're not always at the forefront of our mind.
00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:53.679
But if you can take a look over your life and some of the decisions we make, some of the relationships that we're in, the way that we carry ourselves, oftentimes it's attached to a pain point.
00:11:53.840 --> 00:12:01.360
And so for me, I can look at those areas and see how they definitely shaped how I felt about myself.
00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:15.200
And it's the other thing I want to say as well is that feelings can override education and acuity and all and money, all of those things, because you can be one can be very accomplished in those areas.
00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:28.399
But if they're the soul is wounded, it will show up every time and it will uh cause people to do things that are counterintuitive based on what uh it seems like they should do.
00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:29.519
So yeah.
00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:32.320
That that is so correct.
00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:48.799
Um, and were there moments, Michelle, when you realize that the beliefs that that you picked up and carried since childhood were still influencing your confidence of self-image?
00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:51.120
Yeah, definitely.
00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:55.440
I would say I became more aware of myself.
00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:57.360
I was sort of a late bloomer.
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Definitely late 30s, early 40s.
00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:13.039
And I noticed some of the career choices or how I showed up in a room, some of the relationships that I was in.
00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:15.759
Um, I I got married late in life.
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I got married when I was 41 and um getting ready to celebrate almost 20 years of marriage.
00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:22.399
Well, congratulations.
00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:23.759
Well, thank you.
00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:30.399
Uh, leading up to that point, uh, I was I was in a lot of abusive relationships.
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:31.840
I elected to be in them.
00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:42.639
And what I realized is that not only do we attract who we are, but we accept many times what we believe based on where we are on the inside emotionally.
00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:54.559
And so I can definitely see looking over those like those instances in my life through counseling, through prayer, and having my eyes open, that those decisions all tie together.
00:13:54.639 --> 00:14:04.720
And it's not until we are able to pivot and there is some true healing that you will see that I began to see differences in my life with different decisions.
00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:09.360
Wow, that's powerful, Michelle.
00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:33.440
Um you know, I think we all deal with some of these things, but I I just respect and admire you so much for being willing to come out and talk about them because so many women, and I wouldn't say it's just women, it's women and men, but particularly women, um, experience what you experience and and don't come out and talk about it.
00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:39.919
So so thank you for being so open and and and so vulnerable uh about that.
00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:53.919
So you you talked about um your growing up and you talked about um yeah how you're you a lot of who you are today came out of pain.
00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:56.320
Is is that did I get that right?
00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:01.840
Uh yes, I wouldn't say all of it because I I don't some of what, yes, yeah, I would say some of it.
00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:06.639
I don't want to paint an unrealistic picture, but there are definitely pain points.
00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:20.159
And so having to, I think what happens, or what happened for me at least, when I hit certain milestones in my life, my perspective began to shift and I would do a little more digging on the inside.
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:28.639
And when I was when I hit 50, I definitely realized that I had fewer years ahead, likely than I had behind.
00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:36.480
But and when I hit 60, it was a little different because not only did I realize that, but then I started to think about legacy.
00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:49.919
I started to think about what did I have, not just materialistically, but what did I have on the inside in terms of my story that I could hand to my nieces, to my nephews, to other people that are around me?
00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:52.480
What type of baton could I pass?
00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:54.399
Yes, yes.
00:15:54.879 --> 00:16:03.039
If if you can then sit down with that little girl that you once were, what would you tell her about what you just said?
00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:19.120
You know, your hair is one thing, but I would say your hair, her hair, that little girl that was you and the little girls who who may hear this somehow in the future, what would you tell those little girls or tell your little girl, the little girl you were?
00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:24.480
I would definitely tell her and them that you are perfect the way you are.
00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:35.679
That doesn't mean you do everything right, but what it does mean is that God created you the way you were supposed to be: your skin, your hair, the things that you like to do.
00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:40.000
They're not silly, they're not wrong, they're simply you.
00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:53.519
The the things that you are drawn to, the people that you tend to like, the activities that you like to engage in, those things are a part of you, and you are inherently there's nothing wrong with that.
00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:56.639
And it doesn't need to be corrected, it doesn't need to be fixed.
00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:01.600
And even when you step in a room and there are other people there, there's no need for comparison.
00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:10.640
You can simply compliment, you can be who you are, and you can shine with somebody else, but you don't have to dim your shine because someone else is there.
00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:16.960
So those are some of the things that I would tell me at four years old and other little girls.
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:18.880
You know, that is so powerful.
00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:26.160
You know, I and I think many of us reach a stage in life where where we start to look back at experiences differently.
00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:28.480
And that's what what you've just said, really.
00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:31.839
We recognize things we didn't have the language to understand.
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:42.559
And you referenced that as well when you're four years old and and people are calling you names or throwing things at you, you don't know exactly why or what, but you know it's not a positive thing.
00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:50.559
Um, you found a very powerful way to describe that process through the image of ashes.
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:57.200
And I mentioned that earlier, but tell us about that ashes metaphor.
00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:03.519
Um, what do ashes represent to you and why did that particular image speak to you?
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:06.160
I'll start with your last question.
00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:13.920
The reason why that particular analogy resonated with me during my period where I told you there were a lot of dark times in my life.
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:17.599
One of the sources of strength is the Bible for me.
00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:29.279
And um, and one of the parts of the Bible in the Old Testament or the first part of the Bible in Isaiah 61, 3, there is a verse and it talks about the Lord giving us beauty for ashes.
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:37.519
And so as I've gotten older, it's funny because I used to hear that verse growing up as a kid, but you're not really thinking about anything when you're 12 and your 20s and 30s.
00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:43.279
Like I said, by the time I got to 60, I was like, I have been through some fire, and so I understand about ashes.
00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:45.279
So I'm at the ash stage.
00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:50.160
And you know, ashes can mean different things to different people, right?
00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:51.119
Absolutely.
00:18:51.279 --> 00:19:07.440
But as I started to reflect on my life and the verse, and even do a little digging into possibly why that metaphor was in the Bible, I realized that there's really some interesting things about ashes, three in particular, uh, that ashes can be used as a pest repellent.
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:12.559
They can also be used to make soil sweet or ready for planting.
00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:17.839
And then also two, they are used to provide traction in really icy situations.
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:40.400
And as I started to think about that after doing some research and looking at my life, I realized that as I've been able to dig through some of the times that really disintegrated in my life, they have provided traction for me and move in terms of moving forward and also enabling somebody else to be anchored in my own story that I'm able to share.
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:48.079
And all of us know what it's like to have pests in our life of pessimism or doubt or fear or those negative insecurities.
00:19:48.319 --> 00:20:08.240
And when you look back through the ashes of what you've been through and realize your resilience and some of the things that you actually may have forgotten that are on the inside of you, that helps, that has helped me to sort of override some of the pesty uh situations or the pesty thoughts that will want to bombard my mind.
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:14.559
And then finally, when I think about the final analogy for ashes, that it makes soil sweet.
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.359
Soil is a place where things are able to grow.
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:26.240
And particularly as it relates to my Shelly and the Curl Lovely Chronicles book, that really is one of the sweetest things that has come out of my childhood.
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.039
Um, because Shelly is me.
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:30.079
I am Shelly.
00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:34.480
She's chocolate, she's dark, she's a little chunky on the chunky side.
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:43.200
And every time I go in to write another story, every time I go in to write another journey in her life, I'm actually digging back through the ashes of my life.
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:51.920
And I'm thinking that I went through when I was four years old, and that I can pull out and help another four, five, six, or seven-year-old girl.
00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:59.440
So that's the sweetness that comes out of some of the things that were more painful in earlier parts of my life.
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:03.359
And and and I want to pick up on that uh a little bit.
00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:09.680
So, as you have talked about um uh uh the the little girl Shell Shelly, right?
00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:10.960
You called her Shelly.
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:11.759
Yeah.
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:15.519
Um, and and we'll talk about Shelly a little bit later.
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:28.319
Uh, but um you were you were working through those experiences and writing, how did that change how you saw yourself, or had you already made that journey before then?
00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:35.039
And I and I the question I'm asking, I guess, is do people heal and and sort of get over it?
00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:40.240
Or do they is healing a process of becoming?
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:42.480
That's a great question.
00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:45.839
And I would say the latter, and I would add on to that as well.
00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:59.759
I think it is a process, and I would also say there is really no cookie cutter answer because there's some people I know that have healed sort of instantaneously based on trauma, then there are other people like me who it's like an onion.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:05.440
Where you peel off a layer one year and then something happens and you're triggered.
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:06.960
And so you pull off another layer.
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:21.279
So I think typically people would say they err or lean more on the process side, but I don't want to make a blanket statement because there are other people who have just been able to move forward at a rapid pace.
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:21.839
Yeah.
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:24.319
So it really, it would just, it would just depend.
00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:27.440
But I will tell you this either way is fine because it's personal.
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:27.839
Yeah.
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:30.079
And so there's no need for judgment.
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:38.160
Or I would even say to people who may be listening that there's no need to feel like you're behind the curb or, you know, oh, I should be farther along.
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:42.319
I always say be where you are until you're not there anymore.
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:44.799
I I think that's that's wonderful.
00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:48.160
Whether it's healing or whether it's the ashes you talked about.
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:48.960
Absolutely.
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.960
Ashes may mean, maybe bring back one thing for you.
00:22:53.039 --> 00:23:01.599
It may bring back something, something else for somebody else, but all the same, those ashes and can be used for healing.
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:04.400
And it's a it's a personal journey.
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:06.160
I love how you said that.
00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:12.000
Just it's a form of grieving, I think, in some respects, because grief is such a personal journey.
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:15.279
And working through all these feelings is personal.
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:22.400
Um how has working through these experiences changed the way you approach other parts of your life?
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:25.920
Do you see any parallels in other parts of your life, Michelle?
00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:31.599
Are you referring to moving through some of the less pleasant areas of my life?
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:33.839
Anything you want to share.
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:50.720
Um, you know, you talk about the usefulness of ashes, um, how gardeners use them to sweeten the soil, but in your own life, have you used them in other parts of your life, other than your own personal healing, like working with other people or anything like that?
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:52.640
I would say so.
00:23:52.799 --> 00:24:02.880
Um I would definitely and I would speak to the process, even as it relates to work or let's say picking up new skills or working with somebody else in a new environment.
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:03.279
Yeah.
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:07.680
Just understanding that everything is not linear, that there is a process.
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:18.799
Many times there are processes and there are ebbs and flows, and there are certain cycles that we experience in every area, every facet, I will say, every phase of our life, be it professional.
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:22.160
It doesn't always have to be personal, but just in so many other areas.
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:30.480
So I would say that process, the understanding that we're being processed and going through a process, it resonates, I would say, across the board in my life.
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:34.160
I would say as I'm older though, that I'm more aware of it now.
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:34.480
Okay.
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:42.319
Sometimes I'm more aware that I'm going through a process and I don't always look at it as a bad thing, but it's just part of life.
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:44.240
It really is part of life.
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:45.039
Yeah.
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:57.039
You know, it what's fascinating about your story is that writing seems to have become one way that you've explored these experiences and shared what you've learned, and we're grateful to you for that.
00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:08.720
Um I'd love to talk a little bit now about writing as a personal journey, because I think there are some listeners who have stories inside of them that they've never quite known how to tell.
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:13.920
Um, for instance, your book, Herr Looms, uh, you you mentioned it, you haven't mentioned it yet.
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:14.880
You mentioned your other book.
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:20.079
But Herr Looms involved six years of interviewing 32 people, including Dr.
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:26.319
Meyer Angelon, who we all, uh not maybe not everybody, but many of us know and love.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:30.640
Um, what originally inspired you to begin that project?
00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:33.359
Great, wonderful question.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:36.319
I will tell you that was an aha moment.
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:41.359
Um, one of the things that I started to realize, well, let me backtrack.
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:52.240
So several years ago, when I first got married, when we got married and we were trying to have children, and through a process, I realized that I could not bear children biologically.
00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:54.880
But that was a time when I went natural.
00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:58.720
And so I decided not to wear chemicals in my hair.
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:03.519
And after a while, I noticed I was always being stopped by women.
00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:05.440
And even my husband picked up on it.
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:06.480
It's like, what is this?
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:07.440
And where do you go?
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:09.920
Someone's asking, what are you doing to your hair?
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:22.079
And it's not only what are you doing or what products are you using, but for some reason, women would come up to me and start to start telling me their hair stories, areas of pain.
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:28.319
And, you know, I don't feel good when I wear my hair this way, or I'm afraid to go into the office with my hair and an afro.
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:37.200
And it happened enough that I realized I this is something I'm supposed to talk about because their stories resonated with mine.
00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:44.880
Remember, I talked about that earlier on that many times the things that we share, you can see that someone else has a similar path.
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:56.000
So, really, after having enough of those instances, I decided, and even um I could see that the Lord was impressing on me to write the story.
00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:03.359
And he I got the inspiration for the name hairlooms, which is you know a double entendre in terms of how it sounds.
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:04.960
Do you think of heirlooms?
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:07.759
Yeah, but then also to hair looms large.
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:14.000
It's something particularly in the community of African American women that is a focal point.
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:17.680
So that was the genesis, yeah, genesis of that story.
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:19.920
And it was Oh, go ahead.
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:35.119
Yeah, I was just gonna say that was that was a hard uh, much harder to write than Shelley and the Curlovely Chronicles, because as I had said earlier, one of the persons that was reviewing my manuscript really challenged me to put blood on the pages.
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.319
And let me just say on that point, I talk about passing the baton.
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:45.200
I shared this earlier in our interview, but we really can't help people, I find, unless we go deep enough.
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:52.240
Because sometimes it's so easy to be surface, but that vulnerability is really what grabs someone else.
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:55.039
And so in writing that book, it was challenging.
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:59.599
I knew what I wanted to say, but in some instances I hadn't quite healed yet.
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:03.440
So this goes back to another question that you asked me if I had sort of fully healed.
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:14.880
And the Shelley and the Crow Lovely Chronicles, I'm in a much farther along, but in heirlooms, uh, I was sort of in the middle of a lot of uh challenging things in my life.
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:20.240
And so that was hard to write because I wanted to give something that was authentic.
00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:23.680
And uh so it just took a lot to get it out of me.
00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:24.400
Yeah.
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:31.759
You I would imagine you had to reach very deep and go to some places that maybe you hadn't visited for a while, or maybe ever visited.
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:32.799
Is that right?
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:36.480
Definitely, absolutely, absolutely, yes.
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:42.720
And when you have an editor telling you that you've got thousands of words to write, you got space to dig.
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:48.799
So a lot of space to dig and a lot of places to explore, yes.
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:54.799
No, no, the metaphor of blood on the page, I've never heard that, but it it it it makes sense.
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:56.720
It just makes sense.
00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:05.039
Um, what did you discover about yourself through listening to other people's experiences when you interviewed the 32 people?
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:07.200
What did you learn about yourself?
00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:12.720
I learned that even though we're different, we're the same.
00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:13.119
Okay.
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:14.880
When I listened to Dr.
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:19.359
Angelo speak, uh, or Kim Coles or Nicole R.
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:19.599
E.
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:30.079
Parker so many, so many times in the middle of our interviews, it was almost like it was like sitting down with a sister, almost finishing each other's words, and it's like, yes, I know what that's like.
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:31.200
Yes, I know what that's like.
00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:32.240
I remember what that's like.
00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:35.759
That's how it was for me when I was a kid or older, whatever the situation was.
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:56.880
So as I would, as I said, that we are really a lot alike in our experiences many times, are it's like one experience, which is why it's so powerful when we decide to tell it, because then it actually gives permission for someone else to tell their story or to look at a little more deeply.
00:29:56.960 --> 00:29:58.960
So that's one thing that I really realized.
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:06.880
Um, even though they're in different stages of life and work in different arenas, so many similarities, so many similarities.
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:09.920
Now, I just have to ask you this, Michelle.
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:14.000
What do you remember most vividly about your conversation with Dr.
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:14.960
Maya Angela?
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:16.880
I just have to ask.
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:21.039
Two things.
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:25.119
Two things that I remember in terms of her, I'll say her conversation.
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:26.240
I'll start there first.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:26.559
Okay.
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:31.279
She she was a well of wisdom.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:32.079
I'll bet.
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:34.799
And her words really mattered.
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:45.119
She took time with them and in speaking with me, and what she said carried weight, even if it was a side comment that was not necessarily related to the book.
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:52.720
So she was not just a wordsmith on paper, but she really chose her words wisely.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:57.119
The other thing that I would say really sticks out to me about Dr.
00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:00.319
Angelo, that was actually the second time I met her.
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:00.960
Oh, really?
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:05.839
I reminded her when I saw her, the first time I met her, I was about 18 years old.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:10.640
And remember, I talked about uh being in a relationship that was unhealthy.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:14.400
And I was in college at the time and she was actually speaking.
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.079
And so I remember leaving the arena where she was speaking.
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:20.000
It was like an intermission of sorts.
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:25.680
And so I was running to the restroom, and on the way back, who do I run into but Dr.
00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:26.319
Angelo?
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:30.799
And it was only the two of us in the hallway, and she she was very tall.
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:34.559
I'm I'm only five two, she's taller, she was much tall than I am.
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:35.759
Isn't she?
00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:36.480
She's very tall.
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:37.279
Yes.
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:41.279
So she looked down at me, and I will never forget the words she said.
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:45.200
She said, My, what a pretty little girl you are.
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:48.240
And well, that sounded like something she would say.
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:54.000
Yeah, but at that time in my life, I I completely did not feel like I was pretty.
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:58.160
I didn't feel like I was worth anything, just so many other things.
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:01.359
So for her to speak into my life at that time, she didn't even know it.
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:02.720
I reminded her.
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:04.400
That's what I remember.
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:08.400
I remember not just what she said, but how she made me feel.
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:09.200
Yes.
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:18.240
You know, and she has this saying, I may get people may not remember what you said or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:20.799
And it's you, you just said that.
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:22.960
You remember how she made you feel.
00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:24.559
And that was decades ago.
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:25.759
I will never forget that.
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:27.920
I even remember what I had on.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:29.279
Oh my goodness.
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:33.759
So she, wow, that was that was that was pretty impressive.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:35.920
So she was great.
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:46.799
What was there anything surprising or emotionally challenging for you about putting all these personal feelings and experiences and thoughts into writing?
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:50.880
You you touched on it a little bit, but could you come back to that?
00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:56.000
With what was, I guess I'd ask you what was most surprising or emotionally challenging.
00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:02.480
What's most challenging for me was reliving moments.
00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:03.359
Yeah.
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:12.640
Because when you are writing or expressing yourself and you really want to give a part of yourself to someone in that way, yeah.
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:21.200
You really can't do it unless you relive it so you can capture any nuances, any details you may have missed.
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:25.599
And and so doing, I was I had to relive it.
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:28.480
And some of those moments were very, very painful.
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:35.440
And one in particular, I talk about uh surviving sexual assault.
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:44.880
And I had to go back to the point to give details because it was relevant for that part of the story.
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:49.839
And it's funny because I knew that if I didn't go there, I would be shortchanging the audience.
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:58.799
And when I hear people who people come to me and they've actually read that part, some of them tell me that they broke down and started crying.
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:02.720
And I know that the only reason why they cried was because I cried.
00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:15.199
And so it's it's understanding that there's a place to go to and you have to relive it in order for you to really tell it and to tell it truthfully, because we can tell a story, but we're not always telling the truth.
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:23.599
And so I endeavored to really tell my story and to really put it out there and to be truthful, yeah.
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:38.239
What would you say to someone listening to to this podcast who's been carrying an idea for a book or a personal story for years, but you know, uh hasn't found the courage uh to begin yet.
00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:43.199
What would you say to that person if they ask you for your thoughts?
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:55.119
I would challenge them to reflect on a time when they had been encouraged and helped by someone else's story.
00:34:55.760 --> 00:35:01.599
And then I would encourage them to say that it's time for them to be that for someone else.
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:09.039
Because many times we tend to operate in a sponge mentality where you just soak up, soak up, soak up, and it's great.
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:16.480
And there comes a time in life when we need to be wrong dry, so to speak, and all that's on the inside comes out.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:28.239
So I would again to um to answer your question, I'd ask them to reflect on a time when they have either received a word of encouragement or there was a body of work that really helped to move them forward.
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:32.960
And then I would challenge them to do the same with their own story.
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:44.320
I would also encourage them to know that their story has value, that their story matters, and that they're here to tell that story, even if it's one person that they reach.
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:54.480
I believe that they're assigned for just particular people and that that story happened not um just to them, but it's for someone else as well.
00:35:54.639 --> 00:35:56.000
That's what I would tell them.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:58.320
I would I would agree with you.
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:10.320
So your writing has uh also become a way of sharing what you've learned with another generation, and I think that connects to an important conversation about legacy.
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:20.559
Um at you know, at this stage of life, many of us are thinking about the influence we have on the generations coming behind us.
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:29.920
Um, sometimes that means passing along family traditions, other times it means recognizing beliefs or behaviors we want to change.
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:39.119
Now, your children's series, Shelly and the Cur Lovely Chronicles, grew, and I didn't say that with the right emphasis, Shelly and the Cur Lovely Chronicles.
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:40.639
Okay, I got it out right that time.
00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:43.599
Well, your personal experiences.
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:49.519
Um, what inspired you to turn those memories into stories for young readers?
00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:57.440
It was really wanting to share what I had been through in a positive light.
00:36:57.599 --> 00:37:04.559
Because you can look, you can look at areas in your life and they may be negative, but there's always another side.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:08.719
Again, going back to if you sift through and look for the beauty, you'll find it.
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:26.000
And so really wanting to be able to share the beauty in my story, but then also to encourage young girls, because I I know at that age, when you're three to seven, that what is what we believe comes from what other people have said.
00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:33.199
And I wanted to have a hand in shaping that so that they didn't go through what I went through and starting at that early age.
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:34.079
Yeah.
00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:39.519
Uh you you've mentioned uh your father was the first person to call you Shelly.
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:42.320
Um, what does that connection mean to you today?
00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:44.480
How does what does that mean?
00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:55.760
My dad passed about two years ago, and um, I was definitely still am a daddy's girl and look just like him.
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:04.079
And so um I just he was the only one, he was the first one to call me Shelly, and so it just made sense.
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:11.280
I didn't want a pen name, I was like, no, I'll keep my name, but yeah, I will create a character based on the name that he always called me.
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:15.119
There was so much love when he would say it, you know, Shelly.
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:17.679
And so I wanted to create out of that.
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:19.199
So that's what that means to me.
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:20.400
Very, very important.
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:21.039
Yeah.
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:27.760
And and what do you hope children, children and the adults leading with them take away from your stories?
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:35.599
Especially, you know, the the two books you well, you've got several books, but what what would you want people to take away?
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:47.360
I want to take away something I said earlier that the way for little girls that when they read the books, I want them to look and see that the way God has created them is perfect.
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:56.880
I particularly have characters in there with afro-textured hair because in society that type of hair tends not to be celebrated.
00:38:57.039 --> 00:39:00.079
But in our in my book series, it is celebrated.
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:06.159
And it's not to compare it to anyone else's, but to say what you have particularly is beautiful.
00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:19.840
And so I won't want grandparents or big mamas or nanas or aunties and parents and school teachers who are passing those on to children to to say to make sure that that message resonates.
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:25.840
It doesn't need to be fixed, it doesn't need to be tamed in reference to hair that it's beautiful the way it is.
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:29.440
May need to learn how to style it, but it's beautiful the way it is.
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:30.480
That's the message.
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:31.360
Yeah.
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:44.480
And and how can we create that space for the message, Michelle, uh for honest conversations with younger generations about our own experiences without passing along all the negative parts.
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:48.800
I really think it's important to share some of the pain, but how can we create that space?
00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:50.639
Do you have thoughts on that?
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:51.599
I do.
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.000
I have some beautiful nieces.
00:39:54.639 --> 00:40:02.159
And one of the things that I intend and I'm intentional about is giving them some things I wish I had.
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:12.239
So I don't necessarily have to tell them about the pain, but for me, as an example, it would have been great to constantly hear your hair is wonderful, or oh, you're so cute.
00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:17.119
So I give them those things that I may have missed in a season.
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:24.400
So they get the benefit of it, but they don't necessarily get something that at that age they're not able to handle or necessarily would be helpful.
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:25.760
So that's how I handle it.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:26.480
Yeah.
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:32.239
Now, now your newest book, I want to spend a few moments on your newest book, Shelly and the Christmas Corn Rolls.
00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:35.199
Now, this this one explores the importance of giving.
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:37.280
Where did that being come from?
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:39.199
And how is your understanding?
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:43.440
How has your understanding of giving changed as you've gotten older?
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:47.039
Dean actually came.
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:51.039
Um, my husband and I were driving along and bridging heat.
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:55.199
So it was not uh, it was not Christmas time at all.
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:59.199
And I will say he's he's a wonderful partner and wonderful muse.
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:03.119
Sometimes I'll just say, you know, babe, I'm thinking about writing thus and so.
00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:09.440
And so he mentioned the thought of having them give, the little girls in the story give.
00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:14.239
And so from that, I told him I said, I just need a little bit of an idea and I'll take it from here.
00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:16.000
So he's like, okay, I'm gonna give you that.
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:19.360
There should be some giving in there and making sure that they give and what have you.
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:22.639
And so from that, I just started to create.
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:28.800
I just started to think in my mind of what actually could be happening in Christmas time.
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:34.559
And so I just started to think about, okay, how about cornrows?
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:39.599
And just began to write the story from there and just to imagine, I would say.
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:41.280
I just started to imagine.
00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:43.519
It's one of the things I love about this book series.
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:45.519
I just let my mind go wild.
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:47.519
Why would they have Christmas cornrows?
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:57.280
Because there's a festival taking place and they're gonna end up, you know, getting cornrows, but actually giving to the hairdresser because she was kind enough to work with them.
00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:00.880
So that the reciprocity was worked in there as well.
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:04.800
Now, when you think about that, that is just wonderful.
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:10.159
That that whole at the giving, but at the same time, you affirming as well.
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:14.079
Um, you affirming their beauty, you affirming what's important about them.
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:15.199
I love that.
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:22.320
So, so when you think about the years ahead, Michelle, what are you most excited to explore or discover?
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:27.840
I'm the most excited to explore my creativity.
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:29.599
It's boundless.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:34.079
And I think when I was much younger, I sort of felt like there was a cap on it.
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:47.840
But as I get older and having launched this book series at 60, I see that literally the sky's the limit, and that that is not just um a platitude, but it is it is really so true.
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:57.920
So I really look forward to exploring and writing more music, writing more children's books, and have and just sort of seeing what that's gonna mushroom into.
00:42:58.000 --> 00:42:58.960
That's what I look forward to.
00:42:59.039 --> 00:42:59.920
I look forward to life.
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:07.679
I look forward to more healing and being able to share my healing experiences in wonderful creative ways.
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:20.079
And and the other thing I've heard you say during our discussion um is that, and I'm I'm gonna say you didn't say this specifically, but I got the message that you're never too old.
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:25.039
Like whether you're 60, 70, or even 80, you're never too old.
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:26.480
Absolutely not.
00:43:26.719 --> 00:43:27.760
Absolutely not.
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:36.639
And that's a message that I believe people our age and older need to hear because I find that we live in a society that tends to be ageist.
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:45.920
And when you are over 40, and God forbid you show a white or gray hair, you know, people are ready to just cart you off and stick you in the corner somewhere.
00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:59.760
And what we have to realize is that we have a level of wisdom that just journeying on this life for so long that is unmatched, and is something that is valuable and is worth sharing.
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:00.639
Yeah.
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:06.159
And you know, you just put into words a lot of the thought behind the Yon 60 unscripted.
00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:13.119
It is because of the wisdom and so forth, and because we need a space to share that and to share with each other.
00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:22.159
So, so I thank you for affirming for me as well the purposes behind the Yon 60.
00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:23.440
Absolutely.
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:25.360
So glad it could be here and share.
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:26.639
I am glad too.
00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:32.800
So before we close, Michelle, um, we always like to talk about our next chapter five.
00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:39.280
There are five quick questions that help us learn a little more about how our guests are approaching this stage of life.
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:42.400
You have just been wonderful and have shared so much.
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:46.239
So I want to close with these uh five questions.
00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:48.239
The first one is about your chapter.
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:53.199
If you could describe this chapter of your life in just one word, what would that one word be?
00:44:53.679 --> 00:44:54.639
Exciting.
00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:56.000
Exciting?
00:44:56.239 --> 00:44:57.599
Yes, exciting.
00:44:57.920 --> 00:44:58.239
Okay.
00:44:58.559 --> 00:44:59.440
Your joy.
00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:03.440
What's one thing that brings you the most joy right now?
00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:04.880
Creating.
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:06.480
Loving.
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:07.519
Yeah.
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:09.519
What have you released?
00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:13.440
What's something that you've stopped worrying about as you've gotten older?
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:16.800
My voice.
00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:21.760
Many times I would try to self-edit.
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:23.920
I don't do that as much now.
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:35.360
I'm mindful, of course, I'm respectful and appropriate, but if there's something that I feel, or particularly the way I see something, my perspective, I don't self-edit as much as I used to.
00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:36.000
Okay.
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:36.880
Okay.
00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:43.280
Um, your curiosity, um, what's something you're still curious about or eager to learn?
00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:46.960
Curious about all the gifts that God put inside of me.
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:51.360
There are so many things that I've done now later in life that I've shocked myself.
00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:55.840
And I'm like, whoa, if I did that, can I do?
00:45:57.840 --> 00:45:59.760
I'm really curious about that.
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:01.840
I I really am curious.
00:46:02.079 --> 00:46:03.039
Yes, yes.
00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:08.000
And your the final five, the fifth question and final one is your younger self.
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:12.559
Um, if you would give your younger self one piece of advice, what would it be?
00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:15.599
Embrace who you are.
00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:16.800
Okay.
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:18.159
Okay.
00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:25.519
So, Michelle, thank you, thank you, thank you for just being so open and so vulnerable about your journey.
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:30.480
And thank you for sharing the experiences that have shaped the woman and the writing you are today.
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:35.360
I sincerely thank you because you have laid it all out.
00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:48.480
Um, what stays with me from our conversation is the idea that we have the ability to revisit the stories we've carried throughout our lives without them causing us excessive pain all the time.
00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:57.679
Some of these stories have brought us joy, others have left wounds that take years to understand and to heal over time.
00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:07.840
So as we grow older, um we have the opportunity to decide what those experiences will mean, but the chapter is still ahead.
00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:12.960
And I also love the reminder that creativity can emerge at any stage of life.
00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:16.159
You've said that loud and clear, it's never too late.
00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:22.800
Sometimes the work we're meant to do grows out of experiences we never imagined will become a source of inspiration.
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:27.440
So, to everyone listening, I want to leave you with this question.
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:33.679
What part of your own story might be waiting for you to revisit, reclaim, or finally share?
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:46.320
Maybe there's something you've always wanted to write, maybe there's a conversation you've been meaning to have with someone you love, or maybe there's a part of yourself you're fred you're just finally ready to embrace.
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:52.159
Whatever it is, I hope Michelle's story encourages you to explore that possibility.
00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:57.679
I'm Ruth Williams Frankly, and this has been Beyond 60 Unscripted.
00:47:57.840 --> 00:48:00.800
Remember, the best years are still ahead.
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:05.039
Until next time, keep living, keep growing, keep becoming.
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:09.840
Watch us, like us, and follow us wherever you get your podcasts.
00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:17.360
And send us your ideas about topics you would like to see us discuss here at Beyond 60 Unscripted.
