S2 E7: Shaping People, Shaping Change | Why Great Leadership Is Built Through Supervision, Mentorship, and Influence

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Dr. Esther Bubb: So, good morning, Joe, Mike, Val, and Lynn. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you having,
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I really appreciate you taking the time to join the podcast and to share your knowledge and expertise in applied behavior analysis, but then also leadership as well. So I want to get the conversation started, and then once you start talking, you can just briefly say how you're coming into the show this morning, how are you doing, and then go into answering the question.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: So, we'll start off with our first segment, right? We're really focusing on your origin, like, helping our listeners learn a little bit about you and your leadership journey. So, Joe, let's get started with you, right? When you reflect on your journey, Joe, and, you know, we've had several experiences over the years.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: What are the early experiences for you, Joe, that shaped how you think about leading others, and then how you're influencing change today?
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: I think that, for me, my earliest experiences were involved with my time at Temple University. I think that… well, originally, and I said, maybe I should mention this, that when I got into the field, I was, an undergraduate, in counseling before I got into the field. I was a crisis counselor at a place called Voyage House, so it was adolescence.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And, it was adolescents, and they were runaways or homeless kids. And I think that that started me down the journey.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: as a practical experience, and nobody ever forgets, I went into counseling psych, no one forgets their internship. My internship was at a place called Philippine Male Health Center, which is at 12th and Pine Street, and it was during the dates of the AIDS crisis. It was…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: 88, 89, and so, you know, being the behaviorist on staff, you know, I was given mostly… so it was 3 types of cases I was given. I was given mostly, like, people with pan attacks and phobias, schizophrenics, and people dying from AIDS. So I had this huge…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: set of population that were largely gay men who had HIV on my caseload, and that was a substantial, I think, factor in my life. At the time.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: my supervisor at, Temple was David Reynolds, and, we do this, little thing in our workshop where we, I was, talk to people about, you know, how you were shaped, what was the mentorship role, or you could think of it as, what was your apprenticeship like?
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: people often came up to me after workshops, because I do a lot of history stuff on the history of behavior analytic models of supervision, and they would ask me, and I'd say, well, what was… it seems like you're kind of down on this role as the apprentice, and I used to always tell them that, you know, that I'm not ever down on the apprentice role, because, you know, the emperor could have never gotten
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: to be the emperor if he was not an apprentice first and then killed his, his trainer. I mean, that's basically…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: The whole bottle, you know.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: So I was never bit about that, but I was, on internship, and my, intern supervisor was David Reynolds, at Temple University, and he was the behaviorist for the, counseling psych program. They had, like, Portia Hunt, who did, Adlerian therapy. So they tried to line you up with the people who you were most aligned with.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And he's a very fun guy. I… we do this, as I said, this apprentice kind of thing, where you kind of reflect on…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Would they… so, in…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: counseling, they talk about putting on the clinical face. You can make yourself serious, and that's, like, an intentional shift to when you're being a clinician, right? When the person moves from just normal chat with you to actually therapy session has begun. Well, there's one for supervisors, and we call it putting on the supervisory face.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And that shift… I always try to get the people doing that activity to reflect on
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: whose face are they actually taking on? And I usually see David Reynolds as my face of being taken on, so I think he has a strong impact on me.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: I take his demeanor, I sort of sit in the chair the same way he did.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And then, I think the core inferences were when I got into the, well, just before, I did a counseling internship, and then I did an organizational development internship with Sue Whelan, and we were at Germantown Hospital.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And during that time, I was learning, you know, how to do organizational development, not necessarily behavior analysis, team building, problem solving, a lot of that kind of training.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Afterwards, I graduated, and I went into the, to the Applied Behavior Analysis program, so I worked with, at the time, Leslie Skinner, who was my supervisor, and, at that time, it was also Saul Axelrod,
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Don Hantula had a strong influence on me because of the organizational end, and,
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: So, and Phil Heinlein. And a lot of our book, we'll talk about later, comes from influences from
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: all my supervisors. Matter of fact, when we did the book, I tried to tell little supervisory stories in the textbook, because we wanted to get something that was more human. Who knows if it'll make the final cut from the publishing company, but…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: that was going on there. So, you know, lots of work in the field there. I went out with Dr. Skinner, and we were at Norristown Hospital, and I did some consultation of teachers there. So that was my branching into teacher consultation from therapy consult… From therapy. And, you know, she had a big impact on me there. I did a lot of stuff
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: On teacher consultation, peer mediation, conflict resolution training,
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: I'm trying to think of what I wanted to say, because I've kind of forgotten it from there, but the idea being that,
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: you know, you spend a lot of time trying then to develop your own practice. I went into the doctoral program. I started out with Leslie Skinner, she had left the university after that at Temple, and I wound up with Chris Tillman.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: who had definitely had an impact. I probably wouldn't have gotten my dissertation done if it wasn't for Chris Tillman. I got this thing back at the last minute about widows and orphans, and I had no idea what the hell they were talking about when they turned in my dissertation. And he said to me, I said, that's it, I'm done. And he said, you're not gonna be done when you turn in your dissertation! And he showed me what they were reading, and he kind of helped me through it.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: He's like, I can't believe you would say that, you know?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And, because I was… I had no idea, all this writing technical stuff that they were talking about, and I was like, I don't know what that is about. So he helped me out there.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: You know, and when Dr. Skinner left, Saul Axelrod really stepped up, and he was a big part of, you know, when your main advisor leaves a program, and you're in a program, they usually say your chances of graduating drop way down. So, you know, that's…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Temple's core staff really helped me get through.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: That… and I've always tried to reflect that. It's the… I used to tell a story, I think that Mike and Lynn have heard it before, where,
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: you know, there's two different versions of the story. It's like an Aesop fable. There's a mouse, and he gets caught by a lion, and he tells the lion, if you let me go, one day I'm going to do…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: you know, I'm going to help you, and the lion just breaks out laughing. He lets him go, largely because I can't believe this little thing…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: I would say that, but years later, depending on which version of the story it is, the lion gets a splinter in his paw, or the lion gets caught in a net, depending on which version you want to hear.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And the little mouse comes running out of nowhere and says, hey, I'm here to help you! I'm the mouse you let go before! And he pulls out the splinter, or he eats the ropes.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Part of the reason for the story is, is that, a lot of people don't realize that when you're doing consultation, you're the mouse. You're not the lion.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: You're not there to sort of… that's their domain, that's the teacher's domain, that's taking over that area, and you're really there to pull the splinter out.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: It's a very small role, but it's a very meaningful role, especially when we talk about things like burnout.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: So I try to always, when I'm being a supervisor, see myself as the mouse. How can I be helpful here in a life that's, even for the supervisees, a very hassle one, you know? It's driven by paperwork, it's driven by trying to get your clients in order, it's driven by, you need a new treatment plan, it's driven by, can I get a case formulation done on this kid?
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And what role can I play to pull the splinter out?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Go ahead. Thank you. No, I'm sorry, I thought you were…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Oh, I'm pretty done! That's it.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Somebody, keep me on task. I need a task person.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Thank you, Joe. Well, Lynn, Joe talked about, you know, seeing himself as the mouse, right? What… tell us about your journey, right, and how your journey influences your leadership today.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: Yes, well, thank you. I will be a lot shorter than Joe. I always am, so…
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Lynn Santilli Connor: I'm gonna stick to the question, and it's gonna be really short. So I actually started out as a, I went to NYU, and I got my master's in social work. I started out as a social worker. I did a lot of counseling, and I was actually a child advocate social worker for a little bit, and then I did some mobile therapy.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: And then, you know, I kind of took a little bit of a turn when I became a coordinator of a program actually under Joe, at DevRo in Philadelphia.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Mmm.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: And, you know, I really started to really enjoy, kind of, you know, focusing more on the behavior analysis end of things, and the AB end of things. So I went back, I took some coursework, you know, I took, I took the BCBA, and I became a BCBA, and this was a long time ago. I mean, this is probably right when I first started. This is, what, Joe, 20, 20 years ago?
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And… I think…
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Lynn Santilli Connor: 20, 20, over 20 years ago. Okay. So, you know, and then since then, I've really been, kind of in a leadership role, a coordinator role, leadership role, and, I really think that, you know, I… when I went into the field, I…
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Lynn Santilli Connor: the kind of… the kind of… I guess you were doing wraparound services. I really saw that those,
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Lynn Santilli Connor: you know, like, the clinicians really needed a lot more guidance, I think, than they were getting. And I really felt… I really kind of felt drawn to being more in that leadership role. I mean, I loved the clinical work, I loved the one-on-one with the kids.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: But I really felt more kind of drawn to being that leader and really giving the clinicians what they want. I think sometimes clinicians are kind of just kind of thrown out there, and they don't have what they need, to practice, right? And then it really, it really is all about making sure, and our
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Lynn Santilli Connor: organization. It was white kids, white kids and families. So, it's really about making sure those kids are getting what they need, and they can't get what they need. The clinicians are kind of floundering, they don't really know what, you know, what to do. And it's hard out there. It's hard work. I always tell them it's very hard work.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: Working out in the field, and they need someone who they can, you know, kind of help them and guide them, and really work on their strengths, too, right, as a clinician.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: And I think that's kind of where I was drawn more to the leadership, kind of the leadership end of things, and I've been in that role for quite a long time.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you, Lynn.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: Joey, see how quick that was?
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: I was gonna say, it's stunning, I crept questions 1 and 2 together.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: Are you sure?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: You sure did, you sure did, yes. So Lynn provided an exem… a very exemplary model there, right? Thank you.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Mike, how about you? Tell us about your journey and how that impacts your leadership today.
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Michael Weinberg: Well, yeah, well, I didn't go… well, I've been to a lot of places, so I guess you could say it's a journey, in that regard. But, I started out very early on, back in the, early, mid-1970s.
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Michael Weinberg: Many years ago, yeah, I know, I've been around a while. I've been in this about 50 years now, so, and now I'm, you know, partially retired from… actually retired from practice, but I still…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Michael Weinberg: and have an academic program, or the master's program in behavior analysis, currently that we've got accred… academically accredited. But starting out, I was very fortunate. I was interested in psychology because I had a psychology course in high school.
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Michael Weinberg: And became very friendly with the instructor for it, who gave me a lot of guidance, and, you know, I ended up going to Northeastern University, which I had no idea what I was walking into, but I walked into a world of behavior analysis.
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Michael Weinberg: That was very strong in the 70s. The chair of the department was someone by the name of Harlan Lane.
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Michael Weinberg: You might not know Harlan Lane, but if you know the book Wild Boy of Aviro, Okay, wild coins?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yes.
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Michael Weinberg: He, he wrote the book.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Michael Weinberg: while I was there as an undergrad, and he had been a student of Skinner's at Harvard, so there was a big.
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Michael Weinberg: media junket, and, we knew a dignitary was coming to the psychology department at our campus that day, and it was none other than a limo with all of the media, press, it was a media frenzy, it was B.F. Skinner.
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Michael Weinberg: And BS Dunner came over to do a whole kind of, you know, media, press, and dog and pony show with Harlan Lane over the book, and it was just…
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Michael Weinberg: incredibly exciting stuff, and I'm like, they are very young, like, barely 18, 20 years old, whatever, and I was like, what is this? And so, and I got to kind of see and meet Skinner, and, from there, and then became a student of Murray Sidman.
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Michael Weinberg: Who was out at an applied setting at Fernal State School that some of you may know of, back then, and he started up a behavior analysis program there. Sidman was really the person who developed, stimulus equivalents, right?
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Michael Weinberg: Okay?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yep, yep, yes.
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Michael Weinberg: Now called, yeah, it has all different names, for it, but, you know, derived relational responding and all these fancy names, but, you know.
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Michael Weinberg: Sidman called it, you know, stimulus equivalence, and I was in the groundwork of that, doing some of the early research on it, so… and learned very, very rigorous and rigid errorless learning procedures, you know, Sidman's a very
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Michael Weinberg: strict about that. If you messed up, it wasn't the client's fault, it's your fault that they didn't learn it right.
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Michael Weinberg: as Skinner always said, the rat is always right. So, so, Sidman made sure that we did it correctly. We had to take a whole graduate course just in errorless learning before we were allowed to put hands on a client. Couldn't do anything unless we did that. Very rigid.
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Michael Weinberg: You know, shaping procedures, you know.
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Michael Weinberg: discrete trial procedures. We were doing discrete trial 20 years before Lavasse ever talked about it, for business sake. It was nothing… he didn't invent it. He did not invent it.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: It was…
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Michael Weinberg: being done back in the 1920s, right? So, it has a long history. He borrowed the procedure, but in any event, it's sort of so Sidman, but he applied it to stimulus equivalents.
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Michael Weinberg: And so you're doing match-to-sample procedures, and so from there on, and they started an ABA program. Folks came in from Kansas, Walt Christian, Pete Christian, actually, it is, started the May Institute, and a lot of his folks were working over at Northeast, and I was students of theirs.
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Michael Weinberg: learned from that, and then Sidman sent me on to a graduate program that he started down in DC, went there for a while.
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Michael Weinberg: I worked in that program, Institute for Behavior Research, and then from there, I went on to a doctoral program at Temple University, which is where I met Joe, and then eventually Lynn, and we've known each other for, like, 30 or whatever-something years, and, you know, and that was really my entree into the leadership, because I did
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Michael Weinberg: home-based consultation for years in Pennsylvania, under what was then called the Plaint
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Michael Weinberg: Pennhurst plaintiff class, but, you know, I went around to all the homes and group homes and provided ABA services. There was no certification or anything, you know.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right, yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: You just were right there doing it, and doing the best you could. And then I became a licensed psychologist around that time, back in the 80s, and have been ever since, so we took that and moved forward with that. But once I was in the trenches for several years, and a lot of challenges, once I moved into Devereaux.
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Michael Weinberg: Quickly came into a leadership position, became clinical director.
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Michael Weinberg: there in Pennsylvania program, and then moved to Florida and became head of psychology and clinical services and behavior services in Florida program, you know, and then just, was overseeing all the behavior services and our residential programs, you know, and our campus programs, and our school program.
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Michael Weinberg: And then, from there, really, kind of.
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Michael Weinberg: Learned a lot about myself, about how to supervise, and what that entails, and what's necessary. And then, you know, also got involved in teaching for a long time, and these students who are coming in are just green.
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Michael Weinberg: You know, they don't know anything yet, so it's like taking a baby, an infant, and shaping them up gradually, and teaching them the skills, and that's where we are with them. So, you know, it's our responsibility as leaders to pass that forward, and teach.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Michael Weinberg: skills, and that's what I enjoy doing. I really like it when the student finally figures out, when they understand the basic principles, they understand functional assessment, and how to ethically and use, and using evidence-based practices, provide the correct intervention. And once they have that aha moment, and they get it, I'm like, I did my job.
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Michael Weinberg: This is great. To me, very reinforcing. When the students finally get it, I say, I've created a behavior analyst. But that's… that's the…
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Michael Weinberg: of it, the beginning of it, but then it goes on much further from there, which is why we're here to talk about this today. So, that's kind of where I'm at.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you, Mike. So you're reinforced in the process. Thanks for sharing that. Val, how about you? Tell us about you.
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Valeria Pascale: Thank you. So, I can tell you that when I reflect on my journey, some of the experience that shaped me the most came from the direct work I had with people, not only with autism, beyond autism. I'm… right now, I serve as director of a clinic for Disability in Italy in southern Italy, and we serve
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Valeria Pascale: neurodevelopmental disorders and other kind of population, but I came from a different kind of background.
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Valeria Pascale: My, first, graduate, I'm doctor in law and neuroscience as well, for instance, and this let me, conduct the very first pilot study in Italy on the.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: happening.
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Valeria Pascale: behavioral analysis in prison, so I work with a different kind of, population. I'm also a licensed psychologist and.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Valeria Pascale: And my internship was in psychiatric department. So, I can tell you that all those experiences changed the way I understand leadership, because they showed me very clearly that behavior is never disconnected from the environment around
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Valeria Pascale: And, working with this different population, I began to notice that the same person
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Valeria Pascale: Could tribal struggle depending on the context, the level of psychological safety, the predictability of routines, the quality of the relationship, and whether they felt accepted, of course.
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Valeria Pascale: And this made me realize that leadership is not simple about directing people or achieving outcomes.
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Valeria Pascale: But it's about creating environment where individuals can express their strengths.
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Valeria Pascale: Feel valued, and participate in a meaningful way.
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Valeria Pascale: And this idea, resonates, deeply. Also because, I, conduct, and, we still conduct, observation in school. I came from, I come from, a total different system.
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Valeria Pascale: Yeah.
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Valeria Pascale: We have an inclusive, school system, for instance.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Hmm.
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Valeria Pascale: And I start thinking that inclusion cannot exist only at the level of policy and intention.
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Valeria Pascale: And if schools or disability services want to be truly inclusive, the environment must reflect shared values such as collaboration and trust. And I also learned that leadership can be expressed in, like, small everyday action, like adapting communication.
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Valeria Pascale: Consistencies, empowering others, and helping people feel seen rather than judged.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yep.
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Valeria Pascale: And in many situations, what appeared to be a challenging behavior was actually a response to the environment, to the stimuli of the environment. So my question was, what can,
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Valeria Pascale: I can change in the environment to, shift, the process. And this is why I believe that effective supervision systems are essential, where supervision is not only about accountability, it's also about creating space, problem solving, professional growth.
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Valeria Pascale: And share responsibility.
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Valeria Pascale: I, I really think that the amazing work,
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Valeria Pascale: My colleague here did in writing such meaningful guidance.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Valeria Pascale: Help in improving, this prob- this process for sure.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, wonderful. So, Val, Joe, Lynn, and Mike, you know, talked about people that they met along their path, why that influenced their journey today, and their leadership on, on, their view on leadership today, I'm sorry. So, is there someone that you would say, you know, you would say, this person was really influential or really mentored you into your, current position and role today?
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Valeria Pascale: Thank you for this question. I realized that, what left a lasting impact was not regarding the mentors in my life.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Valeria Pascale: left to me, but how they behaved, how they… environments, communicating, reinforcing others. And one of the most influential figures is… I didn't have the chance to, have been meeting in person, but Audrey Daniels, it's someone that really fascinating me.
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Valeria Pascale: Because he really shaped, the leadership process and what we have in behavioral terms. And he's, one person, for instance, that, directly impacted my journey, for sure, was, is, because he is still in my, journal, is Vincent Carbon. I start,
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Valeria Pascale: I learned, a lot from him. I, I will be always, grateful for his guidance in the very early, career. His clarity and consistency had a strong impact on me, and I learned from him the importance of, remain precise, supportive.
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Valeria Pascale: Even in complex or high-intensity situation. And his professional competencies and personal attitude really shaped how I approach supervision.
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Valeria Pascale: Another… I want to mention three other persons. Okay. Another person is John Gershaw. I continue working with him, and he really helped me in understanding better how to, guide a team who work with very high, risk of severe challenge behavior. He worked mainly with adults in residential setting, and learned
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Valeria Pascale: a lot from him. My doctoral program, at the Chicago School and my dissertation, is in test clarification and performance feedback, for instance, and, who really shaped me and my ideas and guide me through, the knowledge of leadership is Dr. Rem Tyler.
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Valeria Pascale: Rim.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Valeria Pascale: We expand my understanding of organizational behavior management, leadership system, supervision, and performance feedback.
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Valeria Pascale: And, of course, I want to highlight, finally, but not for importance, Joe Cotilli had a particular transformative impact on my thinking, to be honest.
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Valeria Pascale: Meeting him was a turning point in how I understood behavioral science beyond clinical application. Converse with him helped me see how foundational repertoires can be built systematically, and how scientific principle can be applied far beyond one's
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Valeria Pascale: Comfort zone, into leadership, education, and organizational system.
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Valeria Pascale: I want to really, again, highlight that their book on behavioral supervision model, addressed significant gap in both behavioral literature and applied organizational practice.
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Valeria Pascale: What I found particularly valuable is that they translate behavioral analytics principle into concrete supervision model that can be directly applied in reorganization settings, and I can see the.
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Valeria Pascale: beyond the U.S, something that we can apply internationally, for sure.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, I love to hear that, too, coming from you, Val, particularly because I'm also international, I'm originally from Grenada, so, you know, it's always good when we have resources that extend beyond the borders of the United States, so thanks for sharing that, yeah. So let's move into the meat of our conversation, supervision as a leadership. So, Lynn, right, your upcoming book.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: that you are co-authoring with Joe and Mike centers on behavior analytics supervision. So, can you tell us about the book, you know, the problem it aims to solve, and why this conversation matters, you know, for leaders beyond our field?
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Lynn Santilli Connor: So I think, you know, the book, and it is… we originally had called it the big book, and we did change it because the publisher had wanted it changed to the comprehensive book, but I really do like the big book, because it's… A it's a big book, and B, it covers a lot.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. But… but it…
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Lynn Santilli Connor: you know, it covers so much about, like, starting about from, you know, building the relationship, and then, even repairing that relationship, you know what I mean? I think a lot of times, that's not really covered, you know, in terms of what.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: and that relationship kind of goes south, and how do you build that? And, I mean, it goes from burnout, right? I mean, a big…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: problem in our field is burnout. I mean, I read these Facebook posts, and it's just…
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Lynn Santilli Connor: I mean, it's amazing how often people are talking about burnout across…
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Lynn Santilli Connor: across, right? I mean, we just talked about this, Mike just mentioned this, even amongst the RBTs, right? Not just amongst the BCBAs and the clinicians. So I think it's a… it's a big problem, and how do we prevent it from getting to that point, right? And I think the book covers a lot about that, and I think… I think having, you know, doing
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Lynn Santilli Connor: Having supervision that's… that's more focused on
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Lynn Santilli Connor: not just the outcomes, do you know what I mean?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay, yes, yes.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: that we've become.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: actually, I read a Facebook post today, you know, about the stuff in North Carolina and everything that's kind of happening, and how we've lost focus, of, of, of kind of…
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Lynn Santilli Connor: needing to change things up based on the individual, right, that you're… that you're.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: It's just all about, kind of, doing the same thing and replicating the same treatment plan.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: I was kind of shocked, honestly, by the post, because I was like, wow! I mean, because that doesn't happen, you know, I mean, in our organization, of course, but, like, when I was reading that, I was like, wow, that's happening more than you think it is out there. And so anyway, the book kind of covers all of these things to address that, right? So that doesn't.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: to give your supervisee the tools that they need, and really to see where your supervisee needs… needs assistance, right? Breaking it down, doing the functional analysis on your… on your supervisee, and breaking it down into kind of really where they need to focus.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: And I, you know, it can really… it can expand beyond outside. It covers… it covers all kinds of supervision. It's not, like.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: behavior supervision. And, you know, I think that's… that's really where the book is going to
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Lynn Santilli Connor: it's going to hit… it hits a lot of… a lot of things, and again, it is a big book, and it is comprehensive, and I think that… that people can kind of pick the book up where they need to, right? They can kind of pick it up wherever they are, in their kind of supervision journey, and being a supervisor. You know, I always say in this field, a lot of times, we just promote
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Lynn Santilli Connor: People to be a supervisor, because they're good clinicians.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: A good clinician doesn't necessarily make a good supervisor, right? That's true, that's true. And if they… and I think they can become a good supervisor.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: can be here.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: I definitely think they need to have that supervision piece and make sure they're getting the, getting the tools that they need, to be able to be a supervisor themselves. So I, you know, again, the book, the book covers a lot, and, you know, it covers a lot of… of kind of meeting… meeting your supervisee where they are, knowing what their learning style is, and looking at different learning styles and how they learn.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: So it's, again, it covers a lot, and I know Joe will talk a lot more about that
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Lynn Santilli Connor: filling all those little pieces, but I…
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Lynn Santilli Connor: So anyway, it's very exciting, actually, that the book is coming out, and I know it's been a lot of work, so we're very excited for it.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Lynn, where would… can listeners find the book once it's published and all that stuff? Where can I direct them, or you direct them to the book once it's available?
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Lynn Santilli Connor: Well, hopefully…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: It's not available yet.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: It's not available yet. It's in the editing process.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: you finalize for the publisher. Okay. So, Bloomsburg Publishing will be publishing the book.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Blueberry, blueberry.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: Blueberry, sorry, blueberry. Blueberry, okay. Publish it, okay.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Alright, once you have the information, Sharon, I can share it all too, okay?
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Lynn Santilli Connor: Absolutely.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Thank you. Joe, what would you like to add to what Lynn shared about the book? The floor is yours!
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: So the book was a lot, and,
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: we trace the history of behavioral supervision models. We go all the way back to Crumbboltz's model. Crumbboltz's Core Four, as they used to call them. We try to answer a lot of questions. We look at, so, the book parallels
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Mostly, clinical behavior analytics supervision.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: So the idea of case formulation, the idea of case formulation process, where I think it adds is.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: it's integrative of a lot of different behavioral models. We have a model of the supervisor, we have a model of the supervisee, behavior analytic developmental model of the supervisee.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: on the work that was originally laid out by Sid Bijou, and we have a, behavior analytic, process model.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: going back to Delaney, of how to get the supervisee from one level of development to another. It builds on an idea of collaboration, collaborative goal setting, but I think the biggest contribution, which gets lost because a lot of people moved into organizational models too quick.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: is the client.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And we keep one eye on the client at all times. And if you see, we have… the book's flooded with, largely at the publisher's request, but the book is flooded with application scenarios. In other words, case studies that are in it to see how to apply these, techniques. It takes a molar and a molecular view of functional assessment.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Okay.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Great.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: It's looking more at broader issues. It looks at ecological factors,
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Don Hantula did a paper not too long ago where he talked about that there is a difference between applied behavior analysis and organizational behavior management, largely making the argument that the ethical codes for behavior analysts don't apply to people in OBM, because they're separate fields. OBM's concerned with
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: organ… With… beyond ABA, behavioral economics, it's got influences on behavioral systems theory, it's got influences from, general evolutionary theory, and you see that.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: in there, and the idea is that while OBM techniques enhance treatment integrity, they're not the only things that enhance treatment integrity, and there's an idea that the two professions are separate. You see a lot of people get their online degree from some ABA program where they learn basic principles, and now they're trying to tell people how to run country, companies.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And that's kind of a sad way that things are going, and that gives bad name to everybody.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: But, you know, there are ABA principles that do get applied in organizations. Those stay fresh with us, and we talk about those, we point to those.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Can we talk a little bit about, consulting the communities. Richard Rakos did a lot of stuff on behavioral community psychology. I think that when we talk about the supervisor, our ecological model of the supervisor, we actually add
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: two things to the literature that I think are very important. We do two inter-teaches. One is nine-module inter-teach in the book on ethics, which is a big area of the field now. And the other is,
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Two, it was two, it might be three, module interteach on cultural diversity, and…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Oh, that's good.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: be in a culturally-based society. And those look at, sort of, like, ecological factors that are on it, and then do your standard… so, Gilbert's performance engineering approach to how to increase ethical behavior, but also self-control training, also things on self-management, because the world is a tempting place out there.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Yeah.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: put those in. You talked about leadership. Ours is really an expansion model. You know, they always talked about supervision as teacher, trainer, coach, or
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: case consultant, or, you know, I'm trying to think back to Jamie Bennard's work, you know, as, or counseling support, but it's even broader than that. That's why we took an ecological position. Okay. Supervisors have so many different roles. One of them is gatekeeper.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: One of them is the ethical person that says, hey, I'm not going to do that treatment.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: ain't…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Because that's going to harm the client, and keeps that eye on the client. And I think that that's really the additive stuff. So, Lynn's right, we talk about a lot about relational repair, we talk about how to build that
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: relationship. We also talk about things like, what do you do when you have,
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Supervisee that… we have acquisition supervisees, we have maintenance supervisees, and then we have restorative supervisees.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And what do you do about that supervisee that's burnt out? And we have whole sections of the book on that. What do you have… what do you do with supervisees that may be suffering from an organization that they suffer from racial battle fatigue, or…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Mmm.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: queer battle fatigue. How do you work with them? And that's all… it's kind of transformative. We talk a lot about history effects, you know? Those kinds of things, and what they do to a supervisee, what they do to a client. So, we have a very comprehensive model.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: of case formulation of your supervisee, comprehensive model of case formulation of your client. We review behavioral models of developmental psychopathology and experimental psychopathology, and what the supervisor should be aware of. And with that, I'll toss it to Mike.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Thank you so much.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Please don't. There you go.
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Michael Weinberg: Yeah, hey.
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Michael Weinberg: All right, so going off of, really moving on from Joe's topics, and partially addressing some of them is, I want to keep the eye not only on the client, but the supervisor.
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Michael Weinberg: And that's.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Thank you, thank you, thank you.
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Michael Weinberg: This book is how we're training the supervisors. That's what has me concerned, having been in this field many, many years, is that students are not getting
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Michael Weinberg: proper supervision and how to handle difficult cases. And, I, you know, I talked to some folks the other day and said, what programs do you know of in behavior analysis that have an approach that looks at clinical case formulation?
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Michael Weinberg: Right? I don't think it happens. People like… I don't know about Lynn.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: work, they might do that in social work, but Joe and I are psychologists first.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Michael Weinberg: Before we came, because there was no such thing as a B, A, C, D, whatever, when we were getting our licenses and psychology.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Michael Weinberg: It was like.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Michael Weinberg: We were called behavioral psychologists, but we learned case formulation as, you know, you lived it and breathed it.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: a graduate course just on, you know, the DSM.
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Michael Weinberg: And you had to learn it, you had to know it, and you had to look at cases, case by case, and do case formulation, and link it back to the DSM, you know, and this was somebody who was, you know, affiliated with Seligman.
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Michael Weinberg: Was the Learn Helplessness guy, you know, and that's who I had the course with at Temple, right? I don't know if Joe had that, but it was a different program, but
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Michael Weinberg: But these students don't get it, and I think that's what we need to talk about. So we talk a lot about clinical case formulation, but we have to train the supervisors in that, because they don't know it.
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Michael Weinberg: And if they don't know it, how are their supervisees who are becoming behavioral analysts going to know it and learn it? And therefore, leading to, in my opinion, a great number of cases to the burnout.
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Michael Weinberg: They can't deal with these kids. They can't deal with the issues. They don't know how to address it. They don't know how to work with a parent. They haven't learned those more complex skills. And I'm getting this from my students in my… their reports. I'm hearing them say, oh, we lost, you know.
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Michael Weinberg: all our RBTs and two BCBAs last week, and we're all at wit's end as what to do when I have enough people to provide supervision. So, this issue of, burnout, turnover, has been an issue in the field,
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Michael Weinberg: Nationally for a number of years now.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: and a lot of organizations, I know the one I was with for the last 10 years, you know, had all kinds of methods and approaches to try to retain staff, keep them in, provide support. So, how do you provide that support?
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Michael Weinberg: That's a supervisory issue. You have to learn how to do that. You've got to work differently in today's environment. It's not like it used to be, to keep them on board. It might… might be money, but I think there's a lot more to it than that, because I don't think that's everything.
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Michael Weinberg: Because you have to have that relationship.
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Michael Weinberg: And so that's what we talk about in here, and that's the very first step
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Michael Weinberg: And the process we are putting forth is relationship building. And for me, that's important because I've worked on developing relationships and attachments years ago, and published on this myself, in a relationship-building model, in behavior analysis, and so we don't see a whole lot of that.
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Michael Weinberg: research going on, but really the key to it, moving it forward, developing a relationship, but being supportive. We have a very diverse staff population.
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Michael Weinberg: We have to be culturally sensitive. We're very sensitive to that, you know, this whole thing, for example, a lot of our staff are afraid to come to work because they're afraid ICE is going to pick them up on the street.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Very true.
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Michael Weinberg: not even… yeah, they're afraid. And our families, too, that we serve are afraid to come to our clinic, because they don't want to come out of the house, so we offer them
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Michael Weinberg: for our families, we offer virtual services where we can, with caution about how we word that, because we're afraid ICE will come and get us, because we offered it, because it would be seen as kind of interfering.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: places work, and, you know, no, we're not going to go there, but, but our staff, too. You know, and we have had some staff who were picked up by ice. It's very scary.
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Michael Weinberg: Very scary dean, so how do you deal with that? How do you handle that? But we're there to support them, supervisors, we're there to help our staff, we're there to teach them the skills, but we have to treat them like human beings and respect them regardless of their backgrounds.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: who they are. So the relationship building for me is at the core of a lot of this, and then from there, you can go to skill building. Once you have the relationship, then you can provide realistic feedback. You know, there was a study done a few years ago, I think it was Florence Nicinari from Kansas.
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Michael Weinberg: who that is actually now the head of ethics at the BACB. I just found out. I ran into her at CASP, but a study that, you know, the idea of the sandwich method?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yes.
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Michael Weinberg: about Denny, you know, well, you say something nice, then you slip in a little comment, and then you go back and say something nice.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: Well, she did a study, and guess… guess what happened? Guess what the results of the study were? She published this thing, Paper Analysis and Practice. They're saying, nonsense. Exactly. Stop treating me like a two-year-old.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: So, give it to me straight, and move on with it, and stop the baloney.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. It's just…
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Michael Weinberg: And I won't say the words here.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: You know, this is just ridiculous, and stop the nonsense. I want to know the truth.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: I want to learn and stop all this malarkey, because there's no… and so there's no evidence for the stuff. So I think that's very
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Michael Weinberg: But what allows you to do that, and the work I did previously on relationship building and attachment, is you've got to build the relationship first before you can go there. Then you can give honest feedback. We've done this to clients who are severely abused and neglected.
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Michael Weinberg: And once we develop a positive relationship and reestablish attachment, we can correct their behavior. Stop going in the corner and whacking your head. Come on over here, we're gonna go out. Let's go in the community. Now, you know, let's get out of here and have fun. And as long as you have a relationship, you can
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Michael Weinberg: speak to them. So, so this can be with the most difficult, clients, and you also want to treat your staff and supervisees and people you're training and overseeing, the same way, with respect and dignity. And once you do that.
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Michael Weinberg: It works.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. Mike, thanks for that. You mentioned that the book addresses, you know, the supervisor too, right? And we talked about supervisee burnout.
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Michael Weinberg: Predominantly.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Does it address supervisor burnout? Supervisor mental health?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Oh, does it? It does, okay.
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Michael Weinberg: It really does, you know, and, you know, and just seeing these comments of, you know, that, like Lynn alluded to, you know, that we… I just noticed on a site the other day, a pretty popular, you know, social media site, that, you know, these are, you know.
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Michael Weinberg: RBTs are saying, you know, we're not getting the proper supervision, we're not getting enough support, you know, and we're out of this, we're done. You know, they're trying to claim that, oh, the RBT era is over. I don't know about that, but it speaks definitely back to supervision. We talk about these processes, you know, restorative model and supervisor burnout.
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Michael Weinberg: And how to work with them, and using these approaches, you know, it could be, you know, behavioral activation.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Michael Weinberg: It could be a number of different approaches that we have, but it's addressing the supervisor. Because if you're going to get to them first, and address their issues, it's going to roll downhill, and you're not going to get, you know, good outcomes.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: Your supervisees or the clients, unless you work
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Michael Weinberg: Supervisor, and that's really what this book is focusing on primarily.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Mike. Thanks. So, so Lynn, Mike started some of the conversation with, like, supporting, right, our staff, and…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: our staff or leaders, you know, things like that, in our organization. So, how can leaders create systems where people feel supported, accountable, and just, Lynn, something that's really big for me is people are just intrinsically motivated to grow, to advance, to progress, right? Talk to us about that a bit.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Nope.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: I think, you know, part of being a leader, I think, is also… is listening, right? Like we're saying, being supportive.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: But you have to listen. You can't always go in… I mean, you go in with an agenda, of course, if you're having a supervision session, right, because of things that came up, but you have to… to kind of… again, you know, I always go back to meet… meet them where they are, with the old social work coming out of me, right? You gotta meet people where they are.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: You have to meet supervisees where they are, and you have to be able to listen and to hear what some of the issues are that they might be having, and I think, again, just being supportive and building that relationship
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Lynn Santilli Connor: And that's how I think, that's how you build the relationship, right? Is that you're there for them, and you support them through it, so that when you make it… you make it a safe space, right? I mean, you make… you make supervision a safe space for them, so that when they're having difficulty, they don't have to wait for you to be like.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: you know, I noticed this. They can come to you and feel that.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: support them, and, you know, like Mike was saying, I mean, they don't need the sandwich, you know what I mean?
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Lynn Santilli Connor: to also be reinforced. They do need to be reinforced, right?
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Lynn Santilli Connor: that they're doing well, because you want them to keep doing that, of course. But then it's also, it's also having those, maybe those tougher conversations, but being… being direct, right, in a, in a way that's, that's respectful.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: And I think that's… that sometimes… I think sometimes supervisors miss that, and I think as a supervisor, you get so… you can get so bogged down with a lot, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: a lot, you have that administrative stuff you have to do.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: I'm sure you're making the bottom line here, or you're gonna… Yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yep.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: So there's a lot of regulation that's changing, the Medicaid, if you're working in the Medicaid system.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: There's a lot.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: going on, right, as a supervisor, and I think sometimes when we come with our supervisees, we bring that with us, and we.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: Do you know what I mean? We have to make sure that we're present. I think part of it is also being present, and being present helps them feel supported. You know, it's getting… it's getting buy-in. You're getting buy-in from your supervisees, and you have to listen to what they're saying, and kind of… kind of meet them there, but make sure also that you're keeping focused on their bottom line of making.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: client is getting the services that they need. And I think that it's also important to not leave, I say, like, with blinders on. Do you know what I mean?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Nice to see you.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: see what's going on out there and kind of what they're experiencing. And I think part of being a supervisor is growing yourself.
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Lynn Santilli Connor: also, you know, learning also from your supervisee, and… and learning's a continuous process, and having that kind of, you know, and having them see that, too, I think helps them to… to come to you with things, and again, feel supported. I think… I think, you know, as Mike said, I think… I think them being supported is… is… is a big part of it, and I think that… that kind of builds them.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing that about listening. That comes up a lot in my podcast, but you also mentioned learning from the supervisee, and I appreciate that, because I always look at it as bi-directional, right? Right? It's not just, you know, I'm teaching you, but you're teaching me too, so thank you for sharing that.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: And Joe, earlier, Lynn mentioned that it's not just about the outcomes, right? You know, she mentioned that in one of her responses to an earlier question, so…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: When developing others, what responsibility do leaders have in shaping people, shaping who they become, Joe, not just what they produce, not just the outcomes, as Elaine said earlier?
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: I think that, you know, Judy Kamacki, designed the operant model of leadership back in the 80s.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: what… her argument made simple, and I'm sure I'm gonna get some email about this, is that…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: a supervisor is always aware of the contingencies acting on their supervisee. Okay. So, and I think that that's the first thing. You want to be aware of the supervisee, the antecedents and the consequences, but also the setting in which the supervisee is responding in, and we're talking about this
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: You know, we talked… you just asked about shaping in the moment.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: But the accumulation of shaping in the moment is what gives us a long-term outcome. You know, if you think about this from a molar approach, we can look at things on the scale of analysis at the molecular level, but also on a molar level, how do I get someone to feel confident enough
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: that they are a behavior analyst, that they are able to do this work. Now.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Bob Kohlenberg wrote a book called Functional Analytics Psychotherapy, and, you know, it's a therapy book, but there's one thing in the book that he puts out, which is this idea of the development of self.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And this is the idea of that a baby born into the world, it might say, when it… at first it just mans for objects, but then it might say, me candy, which is, I want candy. And if you look at these classes, you get an emerging response class of, I want, I need, because it's over lots of trials and lots of things.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Then that I once eye needs develops what's called a stable sense of self. The eye drops out. It's an emerging response class. The same thing happens with our supervisees. You ask what we shape. We actually shape if we're doing it right.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: we're not inconsistent in our reinforcement, we will get a stable sense of, I'm a behavior analyst. And so the idea that we want is them to feel confident with that. And a lot of our supervisees come in with the idea of, you know, some will come in with the idea of imposter syndrome, I can't tell them about my bed, or else I'll fail out of the program, or they'll fire me. But really, we're supposed to be
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: responses that are signs that this is a safe place to share. This is a safe place where you can say, man, I really screwed that up. And I have a lot of cases I really screwed up in my life, so I can really…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Insane.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: You know, I've made a lot of wrong turns.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: So, you know, that is part of this developing… when we talk about shaping the sense of I.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Unstable sense of eye leads to a lot of fear. I'm going to be found out. Oh my god, I gotta hide it. I can't trust what I see in the data, because the eye of seeing has been messed up all this time.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And the idea is there is you then produce a supervisee that's frightened, a supervisee that's timid. Now.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: We talked about burnout a minute ago, but in the assertiveness literature, there's a ton of meta-analytic studies done with nurses, not with behavior analysts, but assertiveness was Volpe's baby. It developed out of his book on neurosis. It is a behavioral technique.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: where they're, you know, training people to use that iMessage. And they're showing much more commitment to the field, substantial dropping in, burnout, you know, again, this whole idea of, that you could prevent burnout by making sure people feel
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Assertive.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Hmm.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And that's really… that's a piece of what we're do… what we're doing.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: But I think the goal there is to… how do we get this molar thing of…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: of a behavior analyst. We also talk in the book about a lot of molar issues. You know, a lot of people talk about particular skills for, for, developing communication, and that's great, but we also have a section on tone.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: tone of the supervision section… session. Those kinds of elements that are more molar talk about reinforcement density.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: They talk about what the punishment density is. That, I think, has been missing from the literature for a long time, and so we talk about, you know, things in the moment. Does he use a tack man procedure? Does he do a tack pause procedure? And of course, that's it. And maybe those moments-to-moments set up an overall turn.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: tone. But maybe the tone is also set up by other factors, and we try to kind of talk about this idea of reinforcement density, this idea of punishment.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Do they want to run away from you and avoid supervision? Are they looking to come to supervision? You know, it's not saying that Joe doesn't say anything bad to supervisees. It's saying that that's in a tone of.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: an environment where they feel very supportive. They feel that, you know, Joe's gonna sit there and help them with that treatment plan right up from beginning to end. So it kind of gives it a lot more of a,
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Of a consistency, and that… and again.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: It's the support role that you were talking about before that I.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: ideally.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: awareness of the contingencies on your supervisee that really talks about what a leader is, and that goes right back to Judy Kamacki.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Joe, thank you for that, but you shared some points that made me think, you know, that's another way, you know, indirectly or directly, to help supervisees grow, not just produce results, right, but grow into, a behavior analyst, or someone that's caring and supportive. You talked about just acknowledging when we make mistakes, right? I'm gonna hold my hands up, right? You know, there are things we do that we reflect, and we're like, why did I do that, or how can I do that differently? And I think it's being honest and open about that, being
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Dr. Esther Bubb: candid, being transparent, being vulnerable enough to share it, holding ourselves accountable, and having those conversations, you know, with our supervisors, too. I think it's encouraging to them. So, I think that's something that's really critical for us as supervisors to be able to do. Sometimes it's hard, but we just have to be able to get ourselves there, right? Because we're not… no one's perfect.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Yeah. No, that's true. We have, little techniques around self-reflection for the.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: on the relationship. We talk about… so in the behavioral activation literature, if your supervisee is avoiding, so there's a lot of meta-analytic studies that show that, burnout and depression are pretty much the same thing.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And so, I had many years ago the opportunity to write
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: the behavior analytic paper on… with Jonathan Cantor, on a functional analysis of depression. And we looked at, like, basic reinforcement and punishment factors, but we also talked about setting events and those kinds of things that set the stage for that.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And we talk about applying those to the supervisee in the book, and that, I think, is very, important. Part of it is, is when the conflict's between you and the supervisee, right, think about that.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: There is a literature base on how to remove that from you and the supervisee, so we kind of went to the behaviorists who were working in couples therapy and drew that out, but there are techniques like turning the problem into an it, where you speak about it as if.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: not happening between you. It's happening to you, rather than either one of you is trying to cause it. So the idea might be, when we get into this situation where there's a deadline, I feel the need to push you.
393
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And you then feel, by getting pushed.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: that you're kind of standing still, that this is something that's not something you want to hear, and I'm wondering how we move past that. So you take the problem, you turn it into an it. There's another, technique that comes out of the behavioral couple literature Jacobson's work called empathic joining, where you actually join with the supervisee
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: In this particular technique, the idea is to say, I can see it from the supervisee's eyes, I am aware of what's going on, and I'm letting them know that I see this from their eyes, because I'm not perfect, and the idea is that
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: I can see your piece, and we also do the standard conflict resolution skills, and we have a section in the book that says, end it, don't mend it. Which is, if you keep busting in the reality.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: You know, there's… there's some couples… I went and I saw this,
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Netflix show. Something bad's gonna happen in the end, and it's a series. It basically draws into people's fears about marriage, and she's going to die on her wedding day if she's not marrying her soulmate.
401
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And the one thing… the whole movie… the whole series is not worth your time to see, but it's just…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: It's typical wedding anxiety stuff, and there's one scene, though, where all the bad crap's happening to everybody.
403
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Except this one couple, who's been this, like, nasty-to-each-other couple since the beginning, right? He says to her at one point in time, because they've always decided they're going to be honest with each other, he says, you know, I often have dreams about hiring somebody to kill you, and she turns around and she says to him, see, that's the whole problem. Right there, I feel sad for you, because you dream about someone else doing it.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: It's like him in a nutshell. Instead, he couldn't even take responsibility.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: He killed her. But they turn out to be the soulmates at the end.
406
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And so it just… it's kind of like, you know, it's kind of like there's this weird dialectic center.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: That teach us things like.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Love is never have to say you're sorry. That was a… if you ever saw, god, what the hell was that movie from that? Love Story. That was the Love Story. She's dying of cancer, it's 1970, I think it's… Ryan plays the, the guy in that, and she says it… Allie McGraw, she was a great actress. She says that to him, love is the narrative to say your story. Well, two years later.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: The same actor, Ryan…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: is on a plane, and Barbra Streisand says to him, they're making up after the thing, and she puts her hand on his and says, love, you know, I've been… I've heard love means you never have to say you're sorry. And he grabs her hand, and he says, that's the stupidest thing I ever heard.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: So there's that dialectic that goes on about all these kind of relational things.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: you know, a mature person can handle all of that, and they can handle the inconsistencies as long as the tone of the relationship… Okay. …and the tone of the supervisory process is one that, I have your best interests at heart. I'm not here to hurt you.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: I mean, I may have to tell you the best thing for you to do is leave the field at some point, because…
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: You know, that's… you know, some people.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Sometimes it is that, yeah, yeah.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Yeah, some people should not be in the field, and sometimes you have to tell them that, and that's a painful thing to do, in supervision. But the idea is, is to kind of get to the place where you've done as much as you can, you've shown that support as much as possible. I hope I answered your question.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Thanks, Joe. So, Val, what are your thoughts on, like, you know, what is your responsibility in shaping people who, shaping who people become, right, not just what they produce?
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Valeria Pascale: Okay, it's hard to add something meaningful after the response, but I will try to say something.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I understand that.
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Valeria Pascale: Okay, in my experience, leaders, supervisor have a profound responsibility, I guess, not only as you, ask, as you reflect on what people produce, but what they become within the environment that, the leader, the supervisor are creating for them. So, in my experience.
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Valeria Pascale: experience. Sometimes I notice that, when you supervisor someone, he feel like you are judging for something that he, he's doing in the wrong way, so they feel like in a safety environment, and the relationship, making a great relationship in which everyone, as Joe says.
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Valeria Pascale: should say to someone else that maybe this is not the field for you, but the way that we use the word, the communication that we have, has an impact on the life of the other person, and this is a very big responsibility. As I learned that people develop differently, depending on whether they feel safe.
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Valeria Pascale: respected, empowered, or included. And this environment that the supervisor creates influence their confidence in what they are doing.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Mmm.
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Valeria Pascale: And their motivation and improving, and as soon as they feel that, we are, I say we because I supervise a lot of team, and students as I'm teaching in different master degree right now.
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Valeria Pascale: And I always say something that one of my, colleagues said before, maybe Lynn. Lynn highlights something very important.
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Valeria Pascale: We have to understand that, everyone can learn from the other, and it's, this dependent from the position. Even I am the supervisor, I can learn through the supervisee. So, this increase the motivation, from the other to push themselves
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Valeria Pascale: more, if they feel that they have something to say, and it happened to me. I'm here, talking, in this field because I was, of course, lucky to meet people who, listen me.
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Valeria Pascale: my idea, look at my work, giving me, providing me suggestion on how to improve, and still, right now, I want that someone, tell me, oh, Nova, you have to improve this, you should focus on this, because it's a growing, it's a professional and personal growing.
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Valeria Pascale: And I guess that this applies not only to individuals receiving supports, but also to professionals working within the school setting, the healthcare setting, and any kind of organization.
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Valeria Pascale: And, this reflects how much is ours to be a good supervisor if we think about all these responsibilities, and how is our to hear from who we are supervising.
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Valeria Pascale: And, for this re… for this reason, I really think that leaders have a responsibility to model
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Valeria Pascale: The values that they want others to embody.
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Valeria Pascale: People, learn not only from a formal training, but through observational model that everyone can give to the other, and we can look on how a leader communicates, how, a supervisor responds to challenges.
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Valeria Pascale: education, and treat others under pressure, because sometimes we work in environments where we have to, make, we have to decision-make it very fast, because sometimes challenges increase, and we don't have time, we have to be the supportive people, the problem-solving people.
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Valeria Pascale: And it's very, hard, but…
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Valeria Pascale: We… we… we can shape, modeling, all this kind of behavior, modeling, the, the grades, communication, and also, ultimately.
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Valeria Pascale: the culture, that grow within the people. As I am international, I really, had the opportunity to collaborate with different group of people from different countries, and I'm really glad that they include a cultural responsiveness, module part in this, big book, because it's, we…
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Valeria Pascale: It's very important to adapt, our behavior to what effect a specific environment, shape values such as respect, inclusion, collaboration,
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Valeria Pascale: Let people be more reflective and confident, in their own environment as as well.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Wonderful. Thanks, Val. And, you know, Mike, in that response from Val, I heard… she didn't say it directly, but she talked a little bit about helping others find their own voice, right? So, I'll give you an example. So, I was recently doing a check-in with a special education teacher, primarily in early intervention, so she was like.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: you know, Esther on my case, so there's a student that engages in challenging behaviors, so we're gonna have the IEP meeting, and, you know, here are all the things we're gonna do. So what should I write in the IP? And I put it right back to her, like, well, what would you say, right? So it's that whole concept of adaptive leadership, helping people find their own voice, use their own voice, right? Think in their own terms instead of replicating, you know, my style or the leader's style of thinking. What are your thoughts on that, Mike? How do you help people find their own voice?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: put things in their own words instead of saying, what would Mike say?
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Michael Weinberg: Yeah, well, you know, I… well, if you're talking about an IEP, you have to get the team's input, first of all. Right. So, you know, it is not our role to, decide what… what should be done, and what to work on. That is our… the role of the team.
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Michael Weinberg: the guardian, or parent, and the individual. You know, that's where the idea of assent comes in as applicable.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: Currently not, you know, it's… there's some questions there, but… but if the individual is able to identify reasonable areas that they want to work on and don't, we need to listen to that.
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Michael Weinberg: And then the parents, if it's a child, then the parents kind of can overrule all of that, right? Right, yep. So, that's where the input is. Our job is to be the technicians.
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Michael Weinberg: We're technicians. We provide the,
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Michael Weinberg: evidence-based technical methodology for making it… making it so, you know, kind of like, you know, on Star Trek, you know, make it so, you know, and we do that because we have the technical expertise, that's where we come in, right? Oh, Joe likes that Star Trek, you know, analogy there, but, you know, I talk about because, you know
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Michael Weinberg: that's where we're at. So your voice is telling people, well, here's how I would recommend going about it, once they have the knowledge and skills, you know, that they've learned on evidence-based and best practices. What I found, even in some larger team meetings that I've… we've had in our organization with,
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Michael Weinberg: A large number of behavioral analysts, and there are certain areas that many in current programs are just not getting trained on.
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Michael Weinberg: You know, and I come in, you know, I think the program that we attended at Temple University was particularly, rigorous.
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Michael Weinberg: Shall we say, and we learned a lot there, you know, when I come into, you know, meetings, there are a lot of varies, you know, and Joe and I both had a common mentor, Phil Heinlein, you know, we learned… actually, Phil Heinlein introduced us, like, 30-some years ago. But that's very rigorous. Heinlein was, you know, another Harvard product out of that Skinner group, and you're learning concepts that, in most
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Michael Weinberg: programs.
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Michael Weinberg: people aren't learning, so, you know, they… they hear this, and they're like, where'd you get that from? Or, you know, opponent process theory, you talk about the University of Pennsylvania, and you talk about Seligman, and that group, and, you know,
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Michael Weinberg: opponent process theory and learn… and those concepts, and people don't know… know what you're saying, so… so sometimes it's a matter of, dispensing or…
460
01:11:10.120 --> 01:11:12.700
Michael Weinberg: In, you know, introducing the information.
461
01:11:12.700 --> 01:11:30.320
Michael Weinberg: giving people information, giving them resources and where to go. So I find that to be… put, people like perhaps myself, I would say, in a leadership role, you know, put you there pretty quickly, because people say, oh, you know something we don't know.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: But it's.
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Michael Weinberg: It's not my job to keep it secret, it's my job and role to share it.
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Michael Weinberg: share the wealth, let them all look at it, and let's take it into consideration, explain what it is, and then go from there. So, so that's where you find it. You have to find those who know something, you know, there's always people who know things that I don't know, and haven't heard much about.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: True.
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Michael Weinberg: And so, I'll learn from them, and pick that up, and add that to my vocabulary, if you will, or my, you know, bag of tools, if you will, and it… and then we can pass that along. So that's where it comes from, and then you gotta… the rest has to come from the team, the parents, you know, and sometimes you get into conflicts, you know, and .
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: with parents, and that becomes a little difficult when you know from, you know, the evidence and the literature, you know, this is really what's going on. The parents, like, no, no, we don't agree with that, and they have every right to not agree with it.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Michael Weinberg: doesn't mean I have to adhere to it.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: That's true.
472
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Michael Weinberg: Sure, and sometimes, sometimes it is best to,
473
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Michael Weinberg: You know, either discontinue or refer out, and that may be the best course of action.
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Michael Weinberg: It may be the best ethical approach sometimes, and you have to know when to do that as well, you know? That's true. And I see that as the entry students have a hard time with that concept. They think, well.
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Michael Weinberg: I have an ethical responsibility to continue it because, you know, Code 301 says responsibility to clients. That doesn't mean you do everything and anything, even though, even if it's unethical, or unwarranted, or not evidence-based, that doesn't mean you do anything.
476
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Michael Weinberg: That means that there has to be a limit to it. You know, if you read even… and I take a lot from Bailey and Birch books on.
477
01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:18.889
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
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01:13:18.890 --> 01:13:21.669
Michael Weinberg: whatever analysts, and they have a lot of examples like this. I've gone over
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Michael Weinberg: A lot of Bailey's presentation, when he talks about these sort of situations, that, well, sometimes it's best to just walk out the door, and that's what you need to do, you know?
480
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Michael Weinberg: End it, and move on, and I've had to do that in some situations myself, you know, and there have been a few times where I've
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Michael Weinberg: called Bailey and said, hey, what do you think? You know, he'll talk about it. But, so, so those, those are some things where you find your voice. You have to know what you know, what you don't know, find out what you don't know, but if you know some things, you're gonna be in the leadership seat pretty quick.
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Michael Weinberg: Because people are going to look to you for, you know, that information or those answers. They may not.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: agree with it all the time, and might say, well, you know, you're already mine. Yeah.
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Michael Weinberg: But others might say, wow, you know, let's take a look at this. So that's where I think it is. It comes from those experiences, but I feel very fortunate, having gone through a very rigorous program with some pretty kind of high-level folks that I learned from over the years, you know, that's really where it's about, you know, and I wouldn't have been able to do much without that.
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Michael Weinberg: For myself, so I think that's where the leadership comes in, and where it comes from, but you have to learn how to use it.
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Michael Weinberg: And how to apply it, and not come off as some kind of conceited, arrogant person. Yeah. 100%. Gotta be real, you know, about it, whether you're speaking to colleagues, or you're speaking to those who
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Michael Weinberg: You have, you know, responsibility over either administratively and or, you know, clinically, so…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, wonderful.
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Michael Weinberg: the right places.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah. Mike, thank you for that, in terms of helping others find their own voice. Joe, what do you have to add?
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: So… Voice is… when I wrote Cyberpunk for years on my own in the 90s.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: one of the first things was develop your voice. And then my daughter came along, and I got back into writing Cyberpunk. This was around 2010. Not having written for close to 15 years, and my voice was different.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: It was a different voice. Voice is a developmental thing, and a context-bound thing. So as we develop it, what we develop over time.
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: we develop a voice, and that voice changes in context. Not the message. The message is there.
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01:15:44.410 --> 01:16:04.620
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: But how we say it has changed. How we write it has changed. How we, try to get others to listen to it has changed. And it constantly changes. You know, in the sociolinguistic literature, they always talk about code switching. My friend,
497
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Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: I forgot his name, he was a professor of mine back in the, 90s, Neil Huckison.
498
01:16:10.360 --> 01:16:35.239
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Akanasu. He talked about the importance of being able to switch code in a particular context, and that's very much known in sociolinguistics. I don't talk the same way to different people about the same subject matter. Yeah, yeah. I have a supervisee right now, and I'm telling him when he's consulting in the Catholic schools to try to talk Catholic. You know, talk about social justice, talk about
499
01:16:35.240 --> 01:16:39.370
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Mercy. Talk about those kinds of things and how they factor in.
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01:16:39.370 --> 01:17:03.099
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: as a consultant, you learn that, you adjust your voice based on contextual factors of the teacher. For example, you're consulting to a teacher, and, you know, we give a lot of examples in the book about, you know, you're consulting with a teacher, and you want her to focus in on this one child and do this reinforcement program with the child, and this is a teacher that focused in on a child.
501
01:17:03.100 --> 01:17:07.980
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Maybe in her early days of her career, lost control of her class.
502
01:17:07.980 --> 01:17:22.279
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: and how to even have the principal come in and help reestablish control. She's got a lot of fear, right, of putting in your procedure, and you have to give her a veto power, you have to give her a chance to talk about
503
01:17:22.280 --> 01:17:39.459
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: you know, how she's worried that this is going to happen, and you have to hear it. Everyone has a learning history, you have to be aware of that learning history. Contingencies have shaped their life, as much as they've shaped your own life. And so, being able to kind of understand that.
504
01:17:39.790 --> 01:17:50.179
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: does become a point to… I agree with Mike, by the way, I just want to say sometimes you have to say, I'm not the right consult for this. I'm not the right supervisor for this.
505
01:17:50.180 --> 01:17:59.890
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Yeah. But there are times when you are definitely changing your tone, and the content in your tone, so when you have somebody, for example, and you're supervising them.
506
01:18:00.400 --> 01:18:07.980
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: and they're in that sensory stage, that early sensory motor stage. It's a lot of, this happened.
507
01:18:07.980 --> 01:18:20.440
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And this is the result. It's a lot of that, whereas you move into more of a pre-verbal stage, it's helping them create words around it, get more accustomed to the behavior analytic language.
508
01:18:20.440 --> 01:18:40.720
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: then in that, verbal stage, you're talking a lot more about case formulation, about how to build it. And then when you get to an advanced verbal stage, it's how does that case formulation not hold? How is it that you're going to now troubleshoot that and problem solve it? And so, you get a lot more in tune with
509
01:18:40.720 --> 01:18:43.109
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And you have to help them get in tune with…
510
01:18:43.110 --> 01:18:43.450
Michael Weinberg: with.
511
01:18:44.120 --> 01:19:08.939
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: with factors that are setting events for the clients that are history effects for the client. You know, I talked about the paper we did on, on depression. Well, some of the idea of, you know, somebody has a trauma history, or has a grief process that they're going in might change your interventions a little bit on them. And how you also discuss it with the teacher.
512
01:19:08.940 --> 01:19:13.300
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: to give priority to some of those issues.
513
01:19:13.680 --> 01:19:20.990
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: when I worked as a compassion fatigue specialist, for a while, and that's one of my certifications.
514
01:19:20.990 --> 01:19:21.410
Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
515
01:19:21.410 --> 01:19:29.800
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: bent through PESI, it's not a hard certification to get. Don't think you have to die to get it. It was pretty, pretty easy and pretty straightforward, but…
516
01:19:30.910 --> 01:19:31.840
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: I used to…
517
01:19:32.320 --> 01:19:40.079
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: You know, when you're, you're doing those kinds of interventions, you have to say… so we talked about burnout being much.
518
01:19:40.080 --> 01:19:40.470
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
519
01:19:40.470 --> 01:19:49.479
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: like, like depression. Compassion fatigue used to be called post-traumatic… secondary post-traumatic stress disorder.
520
01:19:49.540 --> 01:20:14.050
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And the reason why it was called secondary person traumatic distress disorder was there was often an event that was highly aversive to the person, and it kind of… that's one model of it. There's also a second contagion model of compassion, which is everybody talks bad about the clients, so I'm going to talk bad about the clients, too, that leads to a dehumanizing of clients. So, there's two types, but if we talk about the first one.
521
01:20:14.090 --> 01:20:32.429
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: you have to start to say, wait, there was this really aversive, punishing event that suppressed their compassion behavior. And we know that if you remove some of that, you can then get some rebound and reinforce caring behaviors. But at the same time, you have to be aware of
522
01:20:32.430 --> 01:20:37.680
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: the idea that I may have to address that, especially if you're a clinical behavior analyst.
523
01:20:37.680 --> 01:20:53.739
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: you have to address those kinds of things, so it's broadening their case formulation when you get to that Stage 4. And your voice changes, right? Your voice as the supervisor changes through each developmental step. Your voice changes as to whether you're in,
524
01:20:53.740 --> 01:21:09.389
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: you're in an acquisition supervision, or a maintenance supervision, or a restorative supervision. You, as a supervisor's voice changes, and you're hoping that their voice changes as well, because it's not speaking
525
01:21:09.460 --> 01:21:30.230
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: in a unified voice, not in this career, not all times. The only thing that's unified is your understanding of behavioral principles, and your understanding of applied behavior analysis, but how you coach it and how you term it differs. Just like it does in writing. When I'm writing a fiction story, I have a much different voice than when I'm writing a scientific paper.
526
01:21:30.230 --> 01:21:32.939
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: I have a different audience, I need to have a different voice.
527
01:21:32.940 --> 01:21:35.090
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And so does this all. Wonderful.
528
01:21:35.090 --> 01:21:45.919
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, wonderful. Thank you, Joe. So, Val, Joe gave an example of, you know, a behavioral consultant who… he gave him feedback on code switching, right? You're going to the Catholic school, you know, here's the approach.
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01:21:45.920 --> 01:22:04.549
Dr. Esther Bubb: What's the difference, Val, when we give feedback that would encourage and support this behavior? And say, like, alright, I got it, I'll go back, or he's like, you know, never mind, pull me from this case, I don't want to go to that school, right? What role does feedback play in his transformation, and what's the difference? What separates feedback that encourages as opposed to shuts down?
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01:22:05.110 --> 01:22:13.539
Valeria Pascale: Thank you for this question. I'm really particularly glad to answer, because my doctoral research focus.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Huh.
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01:22:14.170 --> 01:22:21.389
Valeria Pascale: From task gratification and performance feedback, especially within a high-demand care environment.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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01:22:21.940 --> 01:22:42.220
Valeria Pascale: I had the chance to, guide the group in a very big department here in Italy, and through both research and practical experience, I became interested in how… in understanding better how feedback influenced not only the performance, but also
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Valeria Pascale: the motivation, the professional confidence, the, emotional regulation, because the high-risk environment really can… we talked a lot about depression, and anxiety, and overall the quality of the care… of care people provide. So, I, really believe that feedback, plays a fundamental role in
536
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Valeria Pascale: Because, it shapes, the, learning, self-awareness, and also professional identity.
537
01:23:16.200 --> 01:23:40.550
Valeria Pascale: in many ways, feedback, communicates, not only, what people are doing, but also what the organization values. What I noticed working with, some group is that the people who implemented, the procedure were really always scared.
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Valeria Pascale: to hear about what the supervisor, was said about, so they were scared, but not enough to pay an attention on preparing, for instance, the environment, reviewing, the procedure, organize the selling materials that they need. So, they were concerned about the
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01:24:05.540 --> 01:24:13.359
Valeria Pascale: consequences without thinking about the antecedents that should, make it.
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Valeria Pascale: And, as soon as they received the feedback in the supervisor, my, work was to evaluate the quality of the supervisor. It was, it's, like a multi-tier design.
541
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Valeria Pascale: So, a multi-level, we…
542
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Valeria Pascale: Try to see if the supervisor, changed their way to provide the feedback, because sometimes the feedback were, like, quick and just corrective.
543
01:24:47.580 --> 01:25:01.109
Valeria Pascale: Never specific, and, on the other side, the supervisee, were like, okay, also today, again.
544
01:25:01.110 --> 01:25:07.710
Valeria Pascale: I made mistake. I was wrong. There was nothing good. So…
545
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Valeria Pascale: they felt like, very… they were very deprived from reinforce, from what they did, that, we reflect together, and, this is one of my, big reflections, on how is important, even we have to, provide corrective feedback to identify
546
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Valeria Pascale: Yeah.
547
01:25:32.290 --> 01:25:57.140
Valeria Pascale: list, very small things that we can reinforce. And when we say something is good, we have to be, very specific, referring to, that person. Val, you did a very great work in putting the book on the table, because he could
548
01:25:57.140 --> 01:26:07.810
Valeria Pascale: see the table. So, being very specific, and at the same time, corrective feedback is equally important for growth.
549
01:26:07.810 --> 01:26:21.579
Valeria Pascale: But its effectiveness depends greatly on how and when it's delivered. If I deliver corrective feedback after 2 hours from the session.
550
01:26:21.930 --> 01:26:26.140
Valeria Pascale: Maybe, it's not so effective.
551
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Valeria Pascale: And, what separates feedback that unlocks growth from feedback that inhibits, it's often the relational context in which, it occurs. People, I notice, are more open to feedback when they feel psychological safety.
552
01:26:46.100 --> 01:26:46.830
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
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01:26:46.830 --> 01:27:05.760
Valeria Pascale: respect and support it, rather than judge. And this is where leadership becomes essential, and our, the great supervision can help in creating the right emotional climate, if we can, define this way, where we can…
554
01:27:05.940 --> 01:27:29.200
Valeria Pascale: provide the behavioral, feedback that contribute to the growing, both professional and personal for, this person. And, I also think that, effective feedback reflects, a broader value-based approach.
555
01:27:29.200 --> 01:27:35.120
Valeria Pascale: Because it's not about just, as I said, correcting mistakes, or improving
556
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Valeria Pascale: productability, but it's also helping people develop reflective, skills, confidence, awareness, and competencies, for sure.
557
01:27:50.400 --> 01:28:09.470
Dr. Esther Bubb: Thank you so much, Val. So, Lynn, Val's addressed feedback, she talked about delayed feedback, feedback in the moment. She also talked about psychological safety. So, can you talk to us about your thoughts on feedback, how we can encourage people, or how they might shut down, and then can you link that… link psychological safety into that… into your conversation?
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Lynn Santilli Connor: Yeah, I mean, I think… I think it even, you know, started from when even Joe talked about stages of development, right, for the supervisee, and knowing what stage they're in, and making sure that the feedback is… is kind of in line with what stage they're in, right? Because if you're… if you're too… if you're too far advanced, you're not going to understand it, and if you're too basic.
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01:28:27.100 --> 01:28:45.500
Lynn Santilli Connor: you know, so it needs to kind of make sure it's in line, right? I think it's all specific… Right. It's part of knowing your audience, in a way, right? I mean, in the book, we talk about what's called anchored feedback, right? So you're basing your feedback on specific observable behaviors, right, so that it lands, right? You want your feedback to land.
560
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Lynn Santilli Connor: And, I think, like, what Valeria said about specific feedback, that helps.
561
01:28:50.410 --> 01:28:50.790
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
562
01:28:50.790 --> 01:28:54.939
Lynn Santilli Connor: specific, so they can get something from it. And, you know.
563
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Lynn Santilli Connor: I mean, we're going back to the safety thing that you said, right? And building that relationship, and kind of going back to what we talked about in the beginning, and it's really about having that relationship and having that space safe, so that they can take the feedback and understand the feedback.
564
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Lynn Santilli Connor: And go with it. So, I think you put… you kind of put all of those things together, you know, to make sure that they can receive the feedback that you're giving, and the feedback that you're giving is going to make sense to them. You could say something to them, and they're like.
565
01:29:22.010 --> 01:29:24.349
Lynn Santilli Connor: Okay, and they don't even have any clue what you're saying, and they're gonna.
566
01:29:24.350 --> 01:29:24.680
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
567
01:29:24.680 --> 01:29:27.270
Lynn Santilli Connor: being like, I don't know what Lynn was talking about today.
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01:29:27.270 --> 01:29:27.610
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
569
01:29:27.610 --> 01:29:28.729
Lynn Santilli Connor: You know, you don't, you don't
570
01:29:29.100 --> 01:29:33.659
Lynn Santilli Connor: You want to make sure that we're working on their… they're really supporting their growth and their professional growth.
571
01:29:33.660 --> 01:29:34.020
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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01:29:34.020 --> 01:29:36.109
Lynn Santilli Connor: And you want the feedback to land, right?
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01:29:36.110 --> 01:29:36.430
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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01:29:36.430 --> 01:29:37.480
Lynn Santilli Connor: for lack of a better.
575
01:29:37.480 --> 01:29:39.549
Dr. Esther Bubb: You want to make sure it lands.
576
01:29:39.550 --> 01:29:44.200
Lynn Santilli Connor: And also, you know, we had talked about before, like, you know, in the book, we talk about bi-directional feedback.
577
01:29:44.290 --> 01:30:02.509
Lynn Santilli Connor: You know, which allows, kind of, the supervisor to model, be more pro… proactive, and receive the input, from the supervisee, too, and have that be, you know, both ways. So I think feedback definitely can be very transformative, but you can't just give feedback for feedback's sake.
578
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Lynn Santilli Connor: Right. It needs to be more thoughtful and more planned out and, in line where the feedback taker, you know, where they are in their professional journey.
579
01:30:14.050 --> 01:30:28.240
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. When you talked about what, you know, you made the comment, like, alright, I gave the feedback, like, what was Lynn talking about? It made me think of Brene Brown's Clear is Kind, right? Just being clear in her own message, just being kind, and it just made me think of that, you know?
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Lynn Santilli Connor: Yeah, yeah.
581
01:30:30.000 --> 01:30:34.429
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah. Joe, do you have anything to add on psychological safety?
582
01:30:35.680 --> 01:30:38.710
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: psychological safety, good, because feedback, I'm not very positive.
583
01:30:39.590 --> 01:30:51.989
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: No, feedback's one of those things that is contextually based. It's like saying, when you say, oh, someone's gonna respond to feedback, it's like saying, someone's gonna respond to M&Ms. And some people will, and some people won't.
584
01:30:51.990 --> 01:31:05.550
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: respond to M&Ms. Feedback's the same way. Feedback's a contextually determined variable, and as a contextually determined variable, it has setting events to make it more effective and less effective.
585
01:31:05.550 --> 01:31:28.769
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: If feedback was going to get me to lose weight, I would have lost… I'd be thin now, and I… you know, I've had a number of people say, are you going to eat that extra donut? And I say, absolutely. They gave me their feedback. Jen DeNicholas, who was working with Don Hantul at one point in time, she did a study, it was a very funny study and famous study.
586
01:31:28.770 --> 01:31:37.689
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Where they showed that, you got higher rates of increase in, behavior with vague, ununderstandable feedback.
587
01:31:37.760 --> 01:31:47.369
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: You know, where they were giving, like, kind of weird feedback, and all the behavior rates went up, because nobody knew what the hell they were talking about, so you just, I better start performing!
588
01:31:47.370 --> 01:31:49.050
Dr. Esther Bubb: Is this the…
589
01:31:49.050 --> 01:31:51.179
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: You bet they give you before they toss you out of the
590
01:31:52.660 --> 01:31:55.959
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: That kind of thing, and so you get, like, a…
591
01:31:55.960 --> 01:32:16.770
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: higher rates of the performance. So, I think there's an over-reliance on feedback, and to show you how down on them, I'm gonna tell you about supervisors suffering from a thing called feedback fatigue. And that's a known literature thing, they've given too much feedback, the behavior hasn't changed, and they give up as supervisors. So the first thing I tell them is, I'm going to give you a lot more tools.
592
01:32:16.850 --> 01:32:26.770
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: I'm gonna give you a lot more ways to go with this. It's not gonna all be given the M&Ms. Not that M&Ms don't work with some kids, but not every reinforcer is an M&M.
593
01:32:26.880 --> 01:32:33.970
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And they don't work at all with my wife, because I try to M&M's with my wife. So…
594
01:32:33.970 --> 01:32:56.729
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: That's on that. On psychological safety, it starts with, I think, recognizing, and I see, I'm gonna say some subversive things here. We're very much a relational model, but one thing I tell everybody is not everybody's a relational learner. And, so Delaney came out, he put out his thing, behavior… behavioral supervision model, and it's…
595
01:32:57.020 --> 01:33:07.570
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: build a genuine human relationship, and he was all into that, and that's great, and, you know, I was in counseling, so I thought, okay, yeah, genuine human relationship, that's the way we start.
596
01:33:07.710 --> 01:33:11.800
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Robinson came along, and Robinson published a paper that…
597
01:33:11.870 --> 01:33:34.079
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: he was not into any human relationship, he was into program instruction manuals. And he compared his training procedure to the verbal behavior training procedures used by Delane. Delane got us all in group, you know, and it was basically, you got all this feedback from your fellow counselors, it was a love fest, you know? You did this great, you do that great, based on the client you saw.
598
01:33:34.190 --> 01:33:42.610
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Robinson put together a book, the book gave you feedback, there was no relationship you had with anyone, and his stuff tied to Laney's stuff.
599
01:33:42.610 --> 01:34:00.949
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And that says that there are non-relational learners. There are, if I was to use a phrase here, there are rule-governed learners and there are contingency-shaped learners. And the first thing you want to create psychological safety is tell people it's okay to be a book learner, it's okay to pick things up from an article.
600
01:34:01.170 --> 01:34:03.519
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: when I went into this field,
601
01:34:04.400 --> 01:34:20.419
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: I don't know if it was a joke or if they were serious, but I was a new guy, so I followed anyway, was they told me to read an article a day, a chapter a week. So every day during lunch, I read a research article about, you know, something in counseling or something. And I carried that through my whole career.
602
01:34:20.480 --> 01:34:45.469
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And so, I can understand there are some people who are non-relational learners. They get an idea from an article, they go in there, they do that idea, they probe it out. Mike and I, we did a, back in 2017 for the Pennsylvania Psychologist, where we did a look, because counseling and psychotherapy are heavily dominated by this idea that it's relational, and that's selection bias. The people who don't want a relationship don't come to your first
603
01:34:45.470 --> 01:34:46.740
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Counseling Session.
604
01:34:46.740 --> 01:34:53.989
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: they don't want to be part of you. That's not the same as the people who work under you. Some of them will be relational.
605
01:34:54.210 --> 01:34:58.310
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: hopefully the majority. And some of it's, like, some of my books.
606
01:34:59.260 --> 01:35:18.570
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And some of them will not be relational at all, right? Some of them will not be relational at all, they will be people that have to learn from the rules, and they'll study the books and those kinds of things. And I think that that's what comes down from research. Like I said, when we did our thing, we were talking about, you know,
607
01:35:18.580 --> 01:35:42.970
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: in the article we did was on do-it-yourself mental health. And the idea is that if you look at the literature on people who had minimal contact with therapists, but used training materials, oftentimes you find that those effect sizes are exactly as the same as those who go into therapy. And so the idea here is there are relational learners, and there are non-relational learners, and you have to respect that going in.
608
01:35:42.970 --> 01:35:51.580
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: first thing of safety is, I respect you, I see you. If you're not a relational learner, let me give you an article to read on this, and we'll talk about the article next week.
609
01:35:51.580 --> 01:35:56.199
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: So the idea is respect that difference going in, because
610
01:35:56.200 --> 01:36:07.690
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: people are different. When you see them, when you understand the contingencies affecting on them, when you understand that people have favored learning channels versus others, our precision teaching.
611
01:36:07.690 --> 01:36:08.060
Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
612
01:36:08.060 --> 01:36:29.130
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: tell us there are some people that are visual, and there's some people that are auditory, and you have to respect that, and you try to gear your analogies in those directions, so that you're speaking a language that they understand. You're not speaking into them that doesn't… that it's not something they understand. And people are all kinds of crazy different.
613
01:36:29.130 --> 01:36:31.800
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Even people of the same community are crazy different.
614
01:36:32.000 --> 01:36:39.690
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: when I was a young kid, I went to a lot of punk rock shows. I was heavily involved in Philly's hardcore community. And you had the punk rock kids.
615
01:36:39.780 --> 01:36:55.680
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And then you had, for a few years, you had what was called, the New Romantic Kids. And, you know, punk rock is get real, be your person, right? Be who you are. You see that,
616
01:36:56.470 --> 01:37:08.120
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: New romanticism, before it died out and became goth, was basically, be as unreal as you can, it's a tough world, be as unreal as you want to be, right?
617
01:37:08.230 --> 01:37:17.719
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And they existed in the same community. And you knew when you were talking to one versus the other, right? The guy with the heavy eyeliner, you know, for…
618
01:37:18.430 --> 01:37:19.139
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: the guy.
619
01:37:19.140 --> 01:37:20.330
Michael Weinberg: Is that how you actually praying.
620
01:37:20.330 --> 01:37:20.950
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: in…
621
01:37:20.950 --> 01:37:22.110
Michael Weinberg: That's where you met Craig.
622
01:37:22.440 --> 01:37:24.060
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Right.
623
01:37:25.280 --> 01:37:44.850
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Could be, you know, but it's coming back to that community and understanding that, that there are different people have different histories, they have different physiologies, they have different backgrounds, and you have to create an environment where not only they feel safe with you, but if you're doing it in group supervision.
624
01:37:44.850 --> 01:37:46.710
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: People won't pile on.
625
01:37:46.710 --> 01:37:48.440
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: The guy that's…
626
01:37:48.440 --> 01:37:53.439
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Got a little bit of a problem where he's a little disrespectful, or he's, you know,
627
01:37:53.440 --> 01:38:16.099
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: he's prone towards insubordination. You know what I'm saying? And there's, actually, there's a West Wing where Mary McCormick's character says that she… when she met Wallace, Fitz Wallace, she says, the thing I liked most about him was I was a person who was prone towards insubordination, and he was very accepting of that. I had a little tendency towards insubordination.
628
01:38:16.100 --> 01:38:20.720
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And she said he was accepting of that, and that was what made it safe for her to learn on her.
629
01:38:21.210 --> 01:38:26.100
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And so, people are different. And psychological safety is cueing that.
630
01:38:26.260 --> 01:38:39.479
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: In the book, we go through a lot of examples of how to cue that first session, where you say, I want to hear your views, I want to hear your opinions, right? And I want to hear what you have to say about the case.
631
01:38:39.620 --> 01:38:49.200
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And that's how you give those safety signals. You know, you work with kids sometimes, if you work in a hospital, for example, you'll find out that, like.
632
01:38:50.770 --> 01:39:15.099
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: you know, you'll go to a ward, and all the kids' behavior on the ward's kind of suppressed if you go, like, on a cancer ward, and they say to you, hey, Joe, they're not playing and stuff. So you go to your information you know about signal versus unsignal shock. You say, hey, before the crash carts, if somebody's crashing, goes in there, just try to flip on the red light as everybody's running down the hall, so it's not as scary for the kids. At least now you're signaling the shock.
633
01:39:15.330 --> 01:39:30.580
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And so what you're doing with that is you're saying, this is going to come, be prepared for it. And I think that that's better overall for… and same thing in supervision. You want to signal the shock, not just give the shock. And…
634
01:39:30.650 --> 01:39:36.310
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: there are some people who say, don't you shock at all! So we'll see.
635
01:39:36.680 --> 01:39:38.100
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, that's true.
636
01:39:38.100 --> 01:39:40.110
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Did I answer your question? I always feel like.
637
01:39:41.240 --> 01:39:59.129
Dr. Esther Bubb: You did, yeah, you talked about psychological safety. You started with feedback, and then you then went into psychological safety, so yes, thank you. So, Mike, let's start to close the conversation out, right? Let's talk about, you know, thoughts for the future and personal applications. So, Mike, what gives you hope about the next generation of leaders in America and beyond?
638
01:40:00.950 --> 01:40:03.720
Michael Weinberg: So, oh, well, yeah, and I… it's just that…
639
01:40:03.880 --> 01:40:06.210
Michael Weinberg: Joe just raised so many red flags for me about.
640
01:40:06.210 --> 01:40:09.270
Dr. Esther Bubb: That whole… that whole issue.
641
01:40:09.270 --> 01:40:26.379
Michael Weinberg: comment, because I did… I did a lot of work… I did a lot of work a few years back on attachment, attachment theory, and a lot of times today, just to comment on this briefly, but, we hear about, you know, the common term used in… amongst the behavior analysts is you want to have rapport.
642
01:40:26.730 --> 01:40:27.140
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
643
01:40:27.140 --> 01:40:28.539
Michael Weinberg: And I'm like, no, you do not.
644
01:40:29.340 --> 01:40:39.769
Michael Weinberg: No, that's the wrong concept. I can have rapport with my neighbor 3 doors down. Does that mean I have a relationship with him? No. You want a relationship with.
645
01:40:39.770 --> 01:40:40.420
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
646
01:40:40.610 --> 01:40:41.620
Michael Weinberg: the families.
647
01:40:41.620 --> 01:40:42.280
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
648
01:40:42.280 --> 01:40:44.130
Michael Weinberg: your client. What's…
649
01:40:44.280 --> 01:40:49.870
Michael Weinberg: You know, when you go in and you do, you know, the priming, and you go in and you do pairing, right?
650
01:40:49.870 --> 01:40:51.010
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
651
01:40:51.490 --> 01:41:08.809
Michael Weinberg: pairing… well, it comes from Skinner, really. When you go in and you're establishing yourself as a conditioned positive reinforcer, you're establishing yourself as a positive reinforcer. That's relationship building. So, when you say rapport, no, you're not developing rapport. I hope you're not, because that's the wrong thing to do.
652
01:41:08.950 --> 01:41:23.019
Michael Weinberg: And I wrote… I published on this, and we're talking about… we talk about this in the book, we talk about relationship building. Same thing with the supervisees. Supervisor and their supervisees are consultees, you want to develop a relationship.
653
01:41:23.080 --> 01:41:36.050
Michael Weinberg: You want to have an attachment. I can go into all my work on attachment, work that I did, and that we found… we had some very, very successful outcomes, but even with convicted murderers, we worked with.
654
01:41:36.420 --> 01:41:36.740
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
655
01:41:36.740 --> 01:41:44.560
Michael Weinberg: years ago. They were sent away to us and said, put them away, never take them in the community, they're a convicted murderer, nothing you can do. Well, guess what?
656
01:41:44.730 --> 01:41:49.590
Michael Weinberg: We didn't listen to that. We violated what we were supposed to do. We developed the.
657
01:41:49.590 --> 01:41:50.930
Dr. Esther Bubb: You know… Relationship.
658
01:41:50.930 --> 01:42:00.169
Michael Weinberg: actual attachment, re-establish the attachment that they… because they were abused as a child. So anyway, but going from… so that's just a little point I want to make, is that.
659
01:42:00.170 --> 01:42:00.830
Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
660
01:42:01.130 --> 01:42:13.339
Michael Weinberg: And when you have that relationship, we found when you reestablish the attachment and establish the attachment and relationship, you know, and the ethic code says you don't have a dual relationship and all that kind of thing, you know,
661
01:42:13.340 --> 01:42:22.560
Michael Weinberg: I'm not totally there with it. I'm really not on board with that idea completely, because there are some problems with it, and you have to read between the lines, but
662
01:42:22.650 --> 01:42:29.459
Michael Weinberg: So you can't just make a blanket statement that you should never do it, because then you're never going to have success and successful outcomes
663
01:42:29.460 --> 01:42:52.629
Michael Weinberg: In your, you know, supervisory role and with your clients, unless you do have a relationship. And once you have that relationship, you can tell them, like Joe says, they can come from all different backgrounds and differences, and you can be real about it at that point. When that attachment's established, you can just be real with them and tell them like it is, you know? Tell them, hey, you're being a jerk, you can get away with it.
664
01:42:53.130 --> 01:43:06.590
Michael Weinberg: At that point. And they'll go, okay, all right, cool. So, anyway, but, so on with this is that, we're hoping that the promise is going to come from this book, because this book is going to help a lot of people.
665
01:43:06.660 --> 01:43:13.450
Michael Weinberg: this is going to be a springboard because, what I can tell you is that, and I'm not going to mention any other specific.
666
01:43:13.450 --> 01:43:13.790
Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
667
01:43:13.830 --> 01:43:22.309
Michael Weinberg: names or publishers or anything, but there are a couple of other books out there on behavioral analytic supervision, and
668
01:43:22.340 --> 01:43:34.069
Michael Weinberg: What is different is that those books are primarily procedural, you know, take through this many hours, fill out this form, check that box.
669
01:43:34.220 --> 01:43:36.830
Michael Weinberg: You know, it's structure of…
670
01:43:36.830 --> 01:43:37.240
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
671
01:43:37.240 --> 01:43:52.840
Michael Weinberg: supervision process, but it's not how to do clinical supervision based on evidence. And the, you know, term that gets used, even by certain organizations, I won't mention any, that say, you know, use evidence-based supervision
672
01:43:52.970 --> 01:44:04.769
Michael Weinberg: But yet, in, those, standards, I don't see any, literature, really, that shows what the evidence-based supervision is.
673
01:44:04.860 --> 01:44:19.630
Michael Weinberg: So, we're filling that gap. We're providing the evidence base for the supervision, and hopefully it will even promote more research in behavior analysis to help develop and establish methods and procedures for even further evidence-based.
674
01:44:19.630 --> 01:44:19.950
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
675
01:44:19.950 --> 01:44:27.099
Michael Weinberg: advisory processes. So this is not… this is a beginning point, a starting point, not the end point, you know? Yeah.
676
01:44:27.100 --> 01:44:27.580
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
677
01:44:27.580 --> 01:44:44.169
Michael Weinberg: So, I mean, that's, you know, the idea of it, kind of like when Iwata and Associates, you know, published their first paper on functional analysis, you know, did they say, you know, this is it for functional analysis? And they said, no, toward a functional analysis of self-insurized behavior.
678
01:44:44.170 --> 01:44:44.510
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
679
01:44:44.810 --> 01:44:47.379
Michael Weinberg: We're gonna do more research in a lot of…
680
01:44:47.380 --> 01:44:47.860
Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
681
01:44:47.860 --> 01:44:59.520
Michael Weinberg: for 40 more years until his passing recently. So, you know, that's the idea here, is that this is going to cover what's been done so far, what we know in the literature, extensive.
682
01:44:59.740 --> 01:45:06.019
Michael Weinberg: But it's a beginning point, especially because much of the research existed before there was
683
01:45:06.020 --> 01:45:21.260
Michael Weinberg: such a thing as the BACD, as I mentioned, going back to the 60s and 70s, where this never existed, so we need to continue to work on it, continue to develop it, work on it from a behavioral analytic perspective, but also a wide array.
684
01:45:21.260 --> 01:45:26.769
Michael Weinberg: Because we're not just working with neurodiverse individuals, we're…
685
01:45:26.770 --> 01:45:39.370
Michael Weinberg: Talking about any individual for whom behavior services, can be effective, no matter what the, quote, diagnostic issue is, behavioral issue is, doesn't matter, using principles of behavior.
686
01:45:39.480 --> 01:45:42.190
Michael Weinberg: To treat and improve,
687
01:45:42.190 --> 01:46:01.789
Michael Weinberg: behaviors, regardless of the diagnosis. So we have a lot of other, you know, individuals and children with emotional behavioral disorders, as it's called, and a whole host of other problems, depression, anxiety, you name it, not… and who are neurotypical, and principles of behavior work. So we're also talking about
688
01:46:01.790 --> 01:46:17.510
Michael Weinberg: a much wider audience and wider group as well, whereas those other books are really specific to intellectual disabilities and neurodiverse populations, and ours is much broader than that as well. So that's where the promise comes in. We have.
689
01:46:17.510 --> 01:46:17.890
Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
690
01:46:17.890 --> 01:46:19.370
Michael Weinberg: You're a great starting point.
691
01:46:19.700 --> 01:46:32.750
Michael Weinberg: And that if people work on this, and we can get the model out, then we can have promise for effective supervision, effective practice, and effective intervention. And going down the board. But you gotta have.
692
01:46:32.750 --> 01:46:33.529
Dr. Esther Bubb: You know?
693
01:46:33.530 --> 01:46:43.530
Michael Weinberg: Ethics really is in there, evidence-based practices, and effective supervision. Okay. And so that's really what we're at. So that's, for me, is where the hope is.
694
01:46:43.530 --> 01:46:58.969
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. Wonderful. Thanks for sharing that, Mike. I'm truly looking forward to purchasing my copy of the book once it's published, because it lends itself to every single thing we talked about today, so I'm really looking forward to that. Val, what gives you hope about the next generation of leaders in Italy and beyond?
695
01:46:59.830 --> 01:47:10.119
Valeria Pascale: Thank you. This is a very important question for me, because it's connected deeply with both my professional journey and my personal values.
696
01:47:10.120 --> 01:47:34.710
Valeria Pascale: Over the years, as I told you, I've worked across many different contexts and systems within individual with different levels of disability, within schools supporting inclusion, in workplace, program, planned behavioral approach, such as ABA within prison. I didn't mention Josh Prichard, but he really
697
01:47:34.710 --> 01:47:35.450
Valeria Pascale: Gone me.
698
01:47:35.450 --> 01:47:35.980
Dr. Esther Bubb: yet.
699
01:47:35.980 --> 01:47:55.949
Valeria Pascale: for me during, that journey, specifically within prison setting, and also developing, projects within public health system. And because I am in, the advisory board of IBO, I had the, opportunity to work international with collaboration.
700
01:47:55.950 --> 01:48:15.039
Valeria Pascale: I learned from so many colleagues working across these very different environments that this led me to reflect on one fundamental question some years ago. What do I want to see in the world in 20 years?
701
01:48:15.040 --> 01:48:15.480
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
702
01:48:15.480 --> 01:48:38.289
Valeria Pascale: My question was not only centered on more technology that help and maybe can guide our decision-making, performance, or productability. What I realized, I truly hope to see our system guided by shared values, mutual respect, inclusion, human dignity, a system where every person
703
01:48:38.290 --> 01:48:50.990
Valeria Pascale: Can participate meaningfully and respond to the environment according to their own characteristics, skills, abilities, and ways of experiencing the world.
704
01:48:51.020 --> 01:49:04.669
Valeria Pascale: I really see the next generation of leaders placing greater attention on what we said, as Mike highlights, collaboration, relations.
705
01:49:04.670 --> 01:49:05.000
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
706
01:49:05.300 --> 01:49:19.600
Valeria Pascale: as Joe highlighted on Lina's web, psychological safety, and social responsibility, because there's a growing awareness that super…
707
01:49:19.600 --> 01:49:44.230
Valeria Pascale: journey is not only about the authority or achieving outcomes, but about sharing, shaping, great models, to improve the system and, organization. And I'm not just reflecting on Italy or U.S, I'm reflecting,
708
01:49:44.230 --> 01:49:59.800
Valeria Pascale: Internationally. And we really have to push for a business model, that are more focused on relation, person-centered, and values-based, approach.
709
01:50:01.550 --> 01:50:19.269
Dr. Esther Bubb: Thank you, thank you, Val. So, on that note, let's have you start with our closing question, right? So, what is one Monday morning move you would… you would leave us with, or leave our listeners with, Val? That's one thing they can do this week, or tomorrow, right, to shift how they lead, that could create this big ripple effect in their environment.
710
01:50:20.060 --> 01:50:26.860
Valeria Pascale: If I had to identify one intention on Monday morning move that could…
711
01:50:26.860 --> 01:50:42.139
Valeria Pascale: create the biggest ripple effect in organization. It would be that we can, like, create system where we can listen and recognize contribution first.
712
01:50:42.300 --> 01:50:56.090
Valeria Pascale: And responding people without judgment. Yeah. This is what I, immediately took. Like, recognize other contribution, and learn from other contribution as well.
713
01:50:56.290 --> 01:51:03.300
Dr. Esther Bubb: I love that. Recognize from the contribution and learn from it as well. Thank you. Mike, what would you close us out with? What would be your Monday morning move you would suggest?
714
01:51:03.590 --> 01:51:06.749
Michael Weinberg: I'm just 100% with what Val just said, I mean…
715
01:51:06.750 --> 01:51:07.180
Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
716
01:51:07.180 --> 01:51:10.539
Michael Weinberg: So, I mean, that's kind of where I was, too, you know, listen…
717
01:51:10.540 --> 01:51:11.020
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
718
01:51:11.020 --> 01:51:17.020
Michael Weinberg: You know, get together with your folks, and then just have a discussion, have a chat, maybe discuss a case.
719
01:51:17.020 --> 01:51:38.099
Michael Weinberg: and then collaborate, and listen to everyone's input, and then be respectful to their input. If it might not be the best, you can say, well, how about thinking about this, you know? But just get everybody to speak their mind, and then share it, you know? Bring the Danish and the coffee or tea, or whatever, too.
720
01:51:38.100 --> 01:51:38.470
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
721
01:51:38.470 --> 01:51:46.320
Michael Weinberg: That helps. A colleague of mine had said whenever they went into an IEP meeting, they always brought the donuts, you know?
722
01:51:46.320 --> 01:51:46.710
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
723
01:51:46.710 --> 01:52:02.330
Michael Weinberg: So that there was a way to put, you know, forth a positive kind of a, you know, statement that this is going to be an interactive process, and we're going to share this together, like Breaking Bright Together, kind of like a biblical approach to it.
724
01:52:02.330 --> 01:52:03.100
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
725
01:52:03.100 --> 01:52:16.100
Michael Weinberg: Which is what it really is, breaking bread, right? Yeah, yeah. So it has that context, and I know for that person, that's where he's coming from in it. So it sets that tone for the meeting, and bring it, because even if they're not eating it, it's the point of it.
726
01:52:16.200 --> 01:52:32.589
Michael Weinberg: that counts, not the actual consummation, but, you know, the fact that they're consuming of it, but it's actually that they… that you brought it. So, do that, be respectful, listen, and start having honest interactions and chats and discussions, and I think that's your starting point.
727
01:52:32.590 --> 01:52:39.790
Michael Weinberg: You know, even if you're having some issues or difficulties, you even can recognize or acknowledge it, but not in front of everybody else.
728
01:52:39.790 --> 01:52:40.500
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
729
01:52:40.500 --> 01:52:57.930
Michael Weinberg: 100%. You might want to have a private discussion about that, but they'll respect you for that as well, that you didn't have them in front of everyone, and that's important, and you have to recognize that as the leader of it as well. So, just have those chats and discussions, and that's the way to move forward. That's just a starting point, but that's a good one.
730
01:52:58.490 --> 01:53:06.270
Dr. Esther Bubb: Thank you, Mike. Listen, recognize, respect. Lynn, what about you? What is your suggested or recommended Monday morning move?
731
01:53:06.660 --> 01:53:08.469
Lynn Santilli Connor: I got the coffee and donuts.
732
01:53:08.470 --> 01:53:11.269
Dr. Esther Bubb: It's like, the crap.
733
01:53:11.790 --> 01:53:15.480
Michael Weinberg: We found a jury enforcer, didn't we?
734
01:53:15.480 --> 01:53:17.569
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: I was jumping on that.
735
01:53:18.000 --> 01:53:25.500
Lynn Santilli Connor: Bring the food, bring the food. You know, I think it's also, I think it's important to smile. You know, I think, I think that…
736
01:53:25.500 --> 01:53:25.860
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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01:53:25.860 --> 01:53:45.570
Lynn Santilli Connor: your attitude as a leader and what you bring into that space is very important, and I think… I think when you smile, other people smile, and when you smile, your… your own attitude changes, right? So, I think it's as easy as the coffee donuts and… You know, other people feel good when you feel good, and it all is… is… is… kind of starts from there, so…
738
01:53:45.710 --> 01:53:52.150
Dr. Esther Bubb: I love that, thank you. Bring the treats and smile. Joe, what would you close us out with, your Monday morning move?
739
01:53:54.240 --> 01:54:06.019
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: My Monday morning move for academics and professors would be stop telling your students that they're scientists. Start telling them the truth that they're engineers. Gilbert made this distinction
740
01:54:07.420 --> 01:54:16.929
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Back in the 70s, if we do one thing for our students that'll stop them from burning out, is let them know it's a complex world.
741
01:54:16.930 --> 01:54:32.409
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: It's okay to be dissatisfied with it. It's okay to try new techniques, and it's okay to put together packages. It's okay to look at what else is being done and try to emulate it. It's not science of replication, of one…
742
01:54:32.930 --> 01:54:48.199
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: one after another. People are different. If I was to talk to supervisors, I would tell them if there's one thing to do, see your supervisee. Heinlein did a nice paper in 22 where he talked about the narrative, and important to tell your story and understand
743
01:54:48.200 --> 01:55:03.060
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: the person you're talking to story. I think the same applies here in supervision, that you want to case formulate your supervisee, you want to share that with them, you want to get their feedback on how to rewrite that.
744
01:55:03.260 --> 01:55:12.709
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And you want to create the goals around that, and then develop specific objectives for that. So, those would be the things, and if I was talking to…
745
01:55:12.710 --> 01:55:27.860
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: students, I would say I'm very proud of this profession. It has a long history. We haven't always been right. We haven't been wrong, ever, but we haven't always been right, and there are ways to be proud about this history.
746
01:55:27.860 --> 01:55:41.840
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: And there are ways to understand this and apply this to your life, and you should take pride in that. And sometimes people will do things that are wrong, and you have to be able to be assertive enough to stand up to them and tell them, I think this is the wrong way to go.
747
01:55:42.460 --> 01:55:44.280
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, wonderful. Joe, thank you so.
748
01:55:44.280 --> 01:55:47.540
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: Even if it's me, and if it's me, say it nicely.
749
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, you know, that's a good point. I always say to my staff and my supervisors, give me feedback too, right? You know, I want to hear it. So, no, that was a really excellent point. So, Joe, Mike, Valenlin, thank you so much for being on the show. I really am looking forward to getting my copy of your book and reading it, and I want it signed.
750
01:56:06.490 --> 01:56:20.899
Dr. Esther Bubb: putting that out and putting it out there. But Mo, thank you so, so much, and I look forward to ongoing collaboration. I really appreciate everything you shared. I learned a lot from what you said, and it's always good to be having those conversations with others in the field, so thank you so much.
751
01:56:20.900 --> 01:56:21.989
Michael Weinberg: Well, thank you so much for.
752
01:56:21.990 --> 01:56:23.939
Lynn Santilli Connor: Thanks for having us. Yeah, it was great.
753
01:56:23.940 --> 01:56:24.530
Joseph Cautilli, Ph.D., MSCP, LP, LPC, LBS, BCBA-D, C-DBT,: We're heading.
754
01:56:24.530 --> 01:56:25.100
Michael Weinberg: Wonderful.
755
01:56:25.490 --> 01:56:26.590
Dr. Esther Bubb: Very welcome.
756
01:56:27.260 --> 01:56:28.040
Dr. Esther Bubb: Alright.
757
01:56:29.270 --> 01:56:29.970
Michael Weinberg: Okay.