00:00:01
Speaker 1: You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Girl. Welcome back to I Choose Me. I am continuing my conversation with doctor Sula wind Gassen, author of the book It's All in Your Body, a practical roadmap to healing through mind body connection. And as I was preparing for this bonus episode, doctor Sula, my first thought was to focus on the action items. Can you share a little mini roadmap to healing for those with chronic pain or other sufferings. You know in your book you say you can't skip to action. What do you explain why that's important to understand your body first before you jump into action.
00:00:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, quite simply because if we don't understand how it's work, and we tend to get bogged down by these narratives of I'm causing it, it's my fault, and that pushes in directions that don't serve us. Either they elevate the pressure or they mean that we act super reactively to what's going on, and then you know, we get stuck in what I call these psycho biological cycles where you know, we're responding to our body in this in particular ways and that feeds then into our biology and then we get stuck. So when we understand the physiology and how that meets our psychological experience and our social experience, it paves the way for taking the pressure off and then really working with what's going on for you. So that is really fundamental from like the science point of view, and then, as we were talking about in the episode, the interceptive awareness point of view, really getting to know your body inside out, recognizing its whispers so you don't have to hear its screams is what I always say.
00:01:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, get to it before. That's a lot harder to manage, it is it really is. It sounds like once you've been told your physical or emotional pain is in your head by someone you should trust, it's very hard to unwind that sort of gas lighting. Yes, can you help us sort of find that doctor for the first time? What kind of questions should we ask when we're first meeting a new doctor and are there red flags to avoid and to know that maybe that's not the doctor for us?
00:02:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, the very first thing is to be really clear on what you want from the outcome of the appointment, so you know, if it's particular answers, if it's particular information if it's a particular treatment pathway, really really helps to write down this is what I want from it, this is what I want clarified. You know that these would be the ideal next steps, and then when you're speaking with your doctor sharing that the outset, you know, I'm coming for this appointment because of this, and these are the things that I'm hoping to get out of it. And I guess the red flags are if you feel like they're talking over you, if they feel like if you feel like they're not listening to you, if you feel like they are disregarding what you're saying you want without giving you adequate explanation. This is not collaborative care. And if you've been dismissed before, it's only going to cause more. I mean, it's only going to be difficult anyway, regardless if you've been dismissed before. But if you have been before, then it's only going to add to that kind of feeling unsafe in those appointments. So feel free to look for another provider. I know it's different in the US to that it's quite in the UK it's kind of get what you can get. But I think even in the UN we can ask for a different doctor in a different way.
00:04:02
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times people feel guilty about leaving their doctor even though they're feeling underserved by them. I've been in that position, and I've also I also really agree with what you said about write it down, make a list, because it's happened to me so many times, whether it is in therapy or a doctor's appointment where I'll be racing to get there and I've got a lot of things going on and they'll say, okay, so what are you here for today and what do you want to know? And I'll say, I don't know, just how am I doing? You know, like, it gets really general, and then you're not going to get as much as you need to out of that appointment.
00:04:39
Speaker 2: And when you're feeling stressed or vulnerable, even if you knew exactly what you were going to be saying before you went there, it can just leave your mind. You know that, that's a very real kind of physiological process that happens. Your brain gets blocked. So if the appointment feels particularly high stakes as well, that's why it needs to happen. So do help yourself out by having it written down.
00:05:04
Speaker 1: I think so many times, do we feel rushed in the appointments? Yeah, and then that causes you to think, oh, no, I'm being rushed, and then you just forget what you needed to know in the first place. Your book talks so much about safety, and you say that our bodies are always looking for danger.
00:05:23
Speaker 2: What is it to you?
00:05:24
Speaker 1: What does it mean to feel safe? And what are some ways that we can help ourselves move toward feeling safe.
00:05:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really great question. We often think of safe as something that is absence of, like physical danger, right of being in harm's way, but safe is much more multi dimensional than that. So in the book, I talk about these core safety needs that we have beyond kind of basic physical safety from harm. There's social safety, so relational safety that we feel like we're going to be cared for and looked after. There's also feeling that we have some kind of sense of control, this feeling that we have value and a sense of meaning. And there's a couple more as well. So you can see that these safety needs are beyond just am I imminently going to get eaten or you know, evolutionarily but in the present day, like attacked or whatever it might be. Physically. It goes, you know, into our sense of worth and how we feel like we can show up in the world in a way that's meaningful to us. So our brain and nervous system and regulatory systems are constantly getting information about do we have access to that safety or do we not, which is why, you know, one of the things that comes up a lot in the people with the people that I work with is I feel like, if this gets any worse, then I'm not going to be able to do what I love. And then what, you know, life isn't worth anything if I can't whether it's work, or whether it's be a good mom or whether it's you know, whatever it might be. And that then keeps the brain super vigilant, keeps it looking out for signs that you're losing that function you're not going to be able to do that, the nervous systems on the lookout. And so what safety feels like can be different in different contexts, but all safety counts. So that and I think, you know, helping your body to experience the spectrum of safety. How does it feel to know that you're not going to have to be accosted by someone unpleasant? Now? That you're sat in your living room just even kind of taking a moment to feel like that. Yeah, you might feel unsafe in other ways, but we can still encode what it feels like to be safe in that respect. How does it feel like to feel valued by your partner who's just paid your compliment or something like that. So these mini moments of safety, they don't necessarily counterfract all of the different types of threat and stresses that you've got, but they still give your body some kind of calibration.
00:08:20
Speaker 1: It makes sense, definitely so important. What are some core skills that we need to have when it comes to processing our emotions for better physical and emotional wellbeing.
00:08:37
Speaker 2: One is something called metacognitive awareness. So that is something that we can build as a skill, and that means to be able to observe our mental experiences, whether that's thoughts or our emotions, which I would argue kind of body experiences, but you know, a lot of us think of them as mental experiences where we can see that sperience and observe it, and we're not you know, in amongst it. So an analogy for this is you're watching the train from a bridge and the train's going past, and you know that's your your thought processes, and you're noticing where your attention's going. When you've got metic cognitive awareness, you can be on that bridge orbit you'll jump back on the train at some point, but then you can get yourself out again. Whereas when we lack that, we're just on the train. We're just going with this full train of thoughts and there's no separation. When we don't have so much metic cognitive awareness, we're so identified with what our brain comes up with that it's it's a much more vulnerable place. When you develop this ability to see these mental events arise and have some separation, you you have the opportunity to evaluate and interrupt these default kind of brain shot pits. Right.
00:10:00
Speaker 1: I talk about that sometimes about how important it is to not believe every stupid thing in your mind tells you absolutely because they can. It can carry you off in really unhealthy directions.
00:10:13
Speaker 2: It really does.
00:10:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like checking in to see, you know, what's really going on right now instead of letting your mind just take control because it likes to do that.
00:10:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's trying to save you. You know, it does feel sometimes like it's being vindictive. It's really not right.
00:10:30
Speaker 1: But there's talk about like the mind but like your fight or flight, and like our minds are designed to keep us away from danger. So everything feels like a danger, you know, it's during your day here and there, but we have to kind of override that or step back and assess, like, am I really in danger right now?
00:10:54
Speaker 2: Have you heard of that saying that the mind is like teeslon for the good stuff just slips right off, but it's like balcro for the for the bad stuff, and it will just stick on.
00:11:07
Speaker 1: It's so true. Yeah, we need to get a smoother pan. We know our scratchy devlon. What do you? You have a roadmap to healing, right, and it offers a lot of ways to help others along their journey, because sometimes I have a friend who has chronic pain, and I know that that can feel so isolating from the people in her life. But you talk about how important it is to discuss your own healing with others along the way and not try to do everything on our own.
00:11:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really hard, you know, going back to that experience of being told it's all in your head. One of the effects of that is you feel like, oh, well, it's all on me. Then I have to figure this out on my own. I'm not being taken seriously. If I don't take charge, no one else will. And then that, you know, lends itself to more isolation. I just need to get my head down and work out the ways that this is going to work for me. And you know, that generalizes really quick, from the doctor that dismissed you to you know, a mother in law that said not very nice things, or you know a father in law who doesn't quite get it, or your own parents whoever. You know, these comments catch on quick, and then you feel like, well, they said it, they think that, so everybody else will. So I'm not going to and because it feels so horrible to be in that situation of really suffering and have people just not get it and maybe also say quite unhelpful things to you or even harsh things to you. Naturally, your brain's just like, we're going to protect ourselves. Then we're not going to put ourselves out there. We're not gonna you know, socialize and talk about this and social company. But the problem with that is it increases isolation. You feel all the extra pressure of not having anybody else to explore with and to feel seen by. And we know again physiologically loneliness, isolation and massive stresses, so it diminishes your physiological buffer against the effects of stress. So it's all around just a terrible idea, but it's really understandable why why our brain pushes us in that direction. So one of the things that I suggest and work on a lot with people at the outset of therapy, and we often have to build up because that sense of being rejected is really strong, so it's often not very easy for people to do this off the bat. But essentially what we're working up to is, let's try and assess and find the people that will feel socially safe for you to be yourself with or share a bit more about what's going on with to get information from, and that will look different for different people. Once we've identified those people, let's just test it out a little bit. So that might be going to a SCHOK group meeting and just listening to begin with. Then maybe the next time you go and you share a little Maybe that's like sharing something with your partner who you do think you can trust, but you're worried because you know other people have said whatever and then you finally share one element of it after you know checking out that that will be okay and it feels like it's safe enough thing to do. So you're just gradually building up. And what I will acknowledge is not everybody's going to be a socially safe person to explore these things with. That's just that's.
00:14:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to, Yeah, you have to be selective, Yes you do. Yeah, it's really important. You know, you have an activity for replenishing compassion because you talk about in the midst of our pain, sometimes our compassion for others often wanes, and it really does make sense that physical and emotional pain takes up a lot of space in our minds and then fills our days, and it's important to sort of come back to a place of compassion in order to connect with other people in order to also lessen our own pain.
00:15:17
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely, I mean what is that activity? There's lots of different ways that we can cultivate compassion, but one that I tend to find helps best is a visualization practice. And it starts off with identifying these different words associated with compassion so warm, gentle, solid, companionship, and you elicit that sense that comes with these words and you just see what your mind naturally clungres up. It can be a person, it can be you, it can be a mascot, it can be an animal, but something that represents compassion. And then we go deeper into this visualization exercise, so that we're exploring what's their tone of voice, what's their posture, how are they relating to you? What kinds of things would they say in difficult situations? And when your brain has this mental imagery, it elicits that emotion of compassion much easier, and it also does something else, because we're not saying you be compassionate, was saying, let's create something that embodies and represents compassion and access that. And the more you access that, over time the two could merge. You could access it quicker. But to begin with it can be really, really difficult because there can be resistant parts of us. But as you practice the visualization, really it's just about feeling that compassion, and then as you go on you can start to apply it two different things where you need to direct it to yourself and sometimes to other people as well.
00:17:00
Speaker 1: Right, I feel like sometimes we get so caught up in our own suffering that we stop realizing or recognizing that we're all suffering in some way. And sometimes it takes for me to look at the other person as if they're a little child, you know, and see that little person inside of them who's scared and just hoping for connection and compassion, and it feels easier to give in that moment.
00:17:29
Speaker 2: I think that's a really great way of doing it. Well.
00:17:32
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time today and for sharing your work. Doctor Sula Wwyn Gazin's book is It's All in Your Body, a practical roadmap to healing through mind body connection. It's available everywhere now. Thank you so much for being with me. I really enjoyed our talk.
00:17:50
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It was lovely.
00:17:52
Speaker 1: All the best to you.
00:17:54
Speaker 2: Thank you guys,
Speaker 1: You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Girl. Welcome back to I Choose Me. I am continuing my conversation with doctor Sula wind Gassen, author of the book It's All in Your Body, a practical roadmap to healing through mind body connection. And as I was preparing for this bonus episode, doctor Sula, my first thought was to focus on the action items. Can you share a little mini roadmap to healing for those with chronic pain or other sufferings. You know in your book you say you can't skip to action. What do you explain why that's important to understand your body first before you jump into action.
00:00:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, quite simply because if we don't understand how it's work, and we tend to get bogged down by these narratives of I'm causing it, it's my fault, and that pushes in directions that don't serve us. Either they elevate the pressure or they mean that we act super reactively to what's going on, and then you know, we get stuck in what I call these psycho biological cycles where you know, we're responding to our body in this in particular ways and that feeds then into our biology and then we get stuck. So when we understand the physiology and how that meets our psychological experience and our social experience, it paves the way for taking the pressure off and then really working with what's going on for you. So that is really fundamental from like the science point of view, and then, as we were talking about in the episode, the interceptive awareness point of view, really getting to know your body inside out, recognizing its whispers so you don't have to hear its screams is what I always say.
00:01:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, get to it before. That's a lot harder to manage, it is it really is. It sounds like once you've been told your physical or emotional pain is in your head by someone you should trust, it's very hard to unwind that sort of gas lighting. Yes, can you help us sort of find that doctor for the first time? What kind of questions should we ask when we're first meeting a new doctor and are there red flags to avoid and to know that maybe that's not the doctor for us?
00:02:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, the very first thing is to be really clear on what you want from the outcome of the appointment, so you know, if it's particular answers, if it's particular information if it's a particular treatment pathway, really really helps to write down this is what I want from it, this is what I want clarified. You know that these would be the ideal next steps, and then when you're speaking with your doctor sharing that the outset, you know, I'm coming for this appointment because of this, and these are the things that I'm hoping to get out of it. And I guess the red flags are if you feel like they're talking over you, if they feel like if you feel like they're not listening to you, if you feel like they are disregarding what you're saying you want without giving you adequate explanation. This is not collaborative care. And if you've been dismissed before, it's only going to cause more. I mean, it's only going to be difficult anyway, regardless if you've been dismissed before. But if you have been before, then it's only going to add to that kind of feeling unsafe in those appointments. So feel free to look for another provider. I know it's different in the US to that it's quite in the UK it's kind of get what you can get. But I think even in the UN we can ask for a different doctor in a different way.
00:04:02
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times people feel guilty about leaving their doctor even though they're feeling underserved by them. I've been in that position, and I've also I also really agree with what you said about write it down, make a list, because it's happened to me so many times, whether it is in therapy or a doctor's appointment where I'll be racing to get there and I've got a lot of things going on and they'll say, okay, so what are you here for today and what do you want to know? And I'll say, I don't know, just how am I doing? You know, like, it gets really general, and then you're not going to get as much as you need to out of that appointment.
00:04:39
Speaker 2: And when you're feeling stressed or vulnerable, even if you knew exactly what you were going to be saying before you went there, it can just leave your mind. You know that, that's a very real kind of physiological process that happens. Your brain gets blocked. So if the appointment feels particularly high stakes as well, that's why it needs to happen. So do help yourself out by having it written down.
00:05:04
Speaker 1: I think so many times, do we feel rushed in the appointments? Yeah, and then that causes you to think, oh, no, I'm being rushed, and then you just forget what you needed to know in the first place. Your book talks so much about safety, and you say that our bodies are always looking for danger.
00:05:23
Speaker 2: What is it to you?
00:05:24
Speaker 1: What does it mean to feel safe? And what are some ways that we can help ourselves move toward feeling safe.
00:05:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really great question. We often think of safe as something that is absence of, like physical danger, right of being in harm's way, but safe is much more multi dimensional than that. So in the book, I talk about these core safety needs that we have beyond kind of basic physical safety from harm. There's social safety, so relational safety that we feel like we're going to be cared for and looked after. There's also feeling that we have some kind of sense of control, this feeling that we have value and a sense of meaning. And there's a couple more as well. So you can see that these safety needs are beyond just am I imminently going to get eaten or you know, evolutionarily but in the present day, like attacked or whatever it might be. Physically. It goes, you know, into our sense of worth and how we feel like we can show up in the world in a way that's meaningful to us. So our brain and nervous system and regulatory systems are constantly getting information about do we have access to that safety or do we not, which is why, you know, one of the things that comes up a lot in the people with the people that I work with is I feel like, if this gets any worse, then I'm not going to be able to do what I love. And then what, you know, life isn't worth anything if I can't whether it's work, or whether it's be a good mom or whether it's you know, whatever it might be. And that then keeps the brain super vigilant, keeps it looking out for signs that you're losing that function you're not going to be able to do that, the nervous systems on the lookout. And so what safety feels like can be different in different contexts, but all safety counts. So that and I think, you know, helping your body to experience the spectrum of safety. How does it feel to know that you're not going to have to be accosted by someone unpleasant? Now? That you're sat in your living room just even kind of taking a moment to feel like that. Yeah, you might feel unsafe in other ways, but we can still encode what it feels like to be safe in that respect. How does it feel like to feel valued by your partner who's just paid your compliment or something like that. So these mini moments of safety, they don't necessarily counterfract all of the different types of threat and stresses that you've got, but they still give your body some kind of calibration.
00:08:20
Speaker 1: It makes sense, definitely so important. What are some core skills that we need to have when it comes to processing our emotions for better physical and emotional wellbeing.
00:08:37
Speaker 2: One is something called metacognitive awareness. So that is something that we can build as a skill, and that means to be able to observe our mental experiences, whether that's thoughts or our emotions, which I would argue kind of body experiences, but you know, a lot of us think of them as mental experiences where we can see that sperience and observe it, and we're not you know, in amongst it. So an analogy for this is you're watching the train from a bridge and the train's going past, and you know that's your your thought processes, and you're noticing where your attention's going. When you've got metic cognitive awareness, you can be on that bridge orbit you'll jump back on the train at some point, but then you can get yourself out again. Whereas when we lack that, we're just on the train. We're just going with this full train of thoughts and there's no separation. When we don't have so much metic cognitive awareness, we're so identified with what our brain comes up with that it's it's a much more vulnerable place. When you develop this ability to see these mental events arise and have some separation, you you have the opportunity to evaluate and interrupt these default kind of brain shot pits. Right.
00:10:00
Speaker 1: I talk about that sometimes about how important it is to not believe every stupid thing in your mind tells you absolutely because they can. It can carry you off in really unhealthy directions.
00:10:13
Speaker 2: It really does.
00:10:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like checking in to see, you know, what's really going on right now instead of letting your mind just take control because it likes to do that.
00:10:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's trying to save you. You know, it does feel sometimes like it's being vindictive. It's really not right.
00:10:30
Speaker 1: But there's talk about like the mind but like your fight or flight, and like our minds are designed to keep us away from danger. So everything feels like a danger, you know, it's during your day here and there, but we have to kind of override that or step back and assess, like, am I really in danger right now?
00:10:54
Speaker 2: Have you heard of that saying that the mind is like teeslon for the good stuff just slips right off, but it's like balcro for the for the bad stuff, and it will just stick on.
00:11:07
Speaker 1: It's so true. Yeah, we need to get a smoother pan. We know our scratchy devlon. What do you? You have a roadmap to healing, right, and it offers a lot of ways to help others along their journey, because sometimes I have a friend who has chronic pain, and I know that that can feel so isolating from the people in her life. But you talk about how important it is to discuss your own healing with others along the way and not try to do everything on our own.
00:11:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really hard, you know, going back to that experience of being told it's all in your head. One of the effects of that is you feel like, oh, well, it's all on me. Then I have to figure this out on my own. I'm not being taken seriously. If I don't take charge, no one else will. And then that, you know, lends itself to more isolation. I just need to get my head down and work out the ways that this is going to work for me. And you know, that generalizes really quick, from the doctor that dismissed you to you know, a mother in law that said not very nice things, or you know a father in law who doesn't quite get it, or your own parents whoever. You know, these comments catch on quick, and then you feel like, well, they said it, they think that, so everybody else will. So I'm not going to and because it feels so horrible to be in that situation of really suffering and have people just not get it and maybe also say quite unhelpful things to you or even harsh things to you. Naturally, your brain's just like, we're going to protect ourselves. Then we're not going to put ourselves out there. We're not gonna you know, socialize and talk about this and social company. But the problem with that is it increases isolation. You feel all the extra pressure of not having anybody else to explore with and to feel seen by. And we know again physiologically loneliness, isolation and massive stresses, so it diminishes your physiological buffer against the effects of stress. So it's all around just a terrible idea, but it's really understandable why why our brain pushes us in that direction. So one of the things that I suggest and work on a lot with people at the outset of therapy, and we often have to build up because that sense of being rejected is really strong, so it's often not very easy for people to do this off the bat. But essentially what we're working up to is, let's try and assess and find the people that will feel socially safe for you to be yourself with or share a bit more about what's going on with to get information from, and that will look different for different people. Once we've identified those people, let's just test it out a little bit. So that might be going to a SCHOK group meeting and just listening to begin with. Then maybe the next time you go and you share a little Maybe that's like sharing something with your partner who you do think you can trust, but you're worried because you know other people have said whatever and then you finally share one element of it after you know checking out that that will be okay and it feels like it's safe enough thing to do. So you're just gradually building up. And what I will acknowledge is not everybody's going to be a socially safe person to explore these things with. That's just that's.
00:14:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to, Yeah, you have to be selective, Yes you do. Yeah, it's really important. You know, you have an activity for replenishing compassion because you talk about in the midst of our pain, sometimes our compassion for others often wanes, and it really does make sense that physical and emotional pain takes up a lot of space in our minds and then fills our days, and it's important to sort of come back to a place of compassion in order to connect with other people in order to also lessen our own pain.
00:15:17
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely, I mean what is that activity? There's lots of different ways that we can cultivate compassion, but one that I tend to find helps best is a visualization practice. And it starts off with identifying these different words associated with compassion so warm, gentle, solid, companionship, and you elicit that sense that comes with these words and you just see what your mind naturally clungres up. It can be a person, it can be you, it can be a mascot, it can be an animal, but something that represents compassion. And then we go deeper into this visualization exercise, so that we're exploring what's their tone of voice, what's their posture, how are they relating to you? What kinds of things would they say in difficult situations? And when your brain has this mental imagery, it elicits that emotion of compassion much easier, and it also does something else, because we're not saying you be compassionate, was saying, let's create something that embodies and represents compassion and access that. And the more you access that, over time the two could merge. You could access it quicker. But to begin with it can be really, really difficult because there can be resistant parts of us. But as you practice the visualization, really it's just about feeling that compassion, and then as you go on you can start to apply it two different things where you need to direct it to yourself and sometimes to other people as well.
00:17:00
Speaker 1: Right, I feel like sometimes we get so caught up in our own suffering that we stop realizing or recognizing that we're all suffering in some way. And sometimes it takes for me to look at the other person as if they're a little child, you know, and see that little person inside of them who's scared and just hoping for connection and compassion, and it feels easier to give in that moment.
00:17:29
Speaker 2: I think that's a really great way of doing it. Well.
00:17:32
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time today and for sharing your work. Doctor Sula Wwyn Gazin's book is It's All in Your Body, a practical roadmap to healing through mind body connection. It's available everywhere now. Thank you so much for being with me. I really enjoyed our talk.
00:17:50
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It was lovely.
00:17:52
Speaker 1: All the best to you.
00:17:54
Speaker 2: Thank you guys,
