Was That Racist? A Real Conversation with Dr. Evelyn Carter

(00:00:02.370):
Hello everyone!

(00:00:03.711):
Welcome to Feminist Founders.

(00:00:05.272):
I'm excited today to chat live if you're here on Substack Live or you can watch

(00:00:11.095):
this,

(00:00:11.575):
hopefully,

(00:00:12.296):
the replay on YouTube and also on the podcast,

(00:00:14.457):
right?

(00:00:14.657):
Fingers crossed.

(00:00:15.577):
We're doing some experimenting today.

(00:00:17.318):
But if you do join us live,

(00:00:18.459):
I'd love for you to say hello in the chat so that we can get a little live

(00:00:21.120):
interaction.

(00:00:22.181):
But I'm joined today by Dr. Evelyn Carter.

(00:00:24.702):
So excited to have you here.

(00:00:26.463):
You're the

(00:00:30.816):
We have talked a little about a few sort of real life scenarios and other things

(00:00:35.142):
and I was just like,

(00:00:35.683):
I just think this would be a great conversation for our audience and just so you

(00:00:39.268):
know,

(00:00:39.449):
Feminist Founders is people who are

(00:00:42.190):
entrepreneurs many many of them are solopreneurs or maybe have some support in the

(00:00:48.833):
way of like contracted help we do have some folks who have employees as well that's

(00:00:52.874):
a whole other can of worms obviously when we talk about some of the things you talk

(00:00:56.275):
about but I think a lot of these folks are people who are businesses of one but

(00:01:00.377):
ultimately these are people who really care about creating a more equitable world a

(00:01:03.658):
more just and equitable world and are looking for ways to do that that are really

(00:01:07.840):
practical so that's kind of what I want to talk about today but first

(00:01:12.377):
Well, first of all, hi.

(00:01:13.798):
Hi.

(00:01:14.819):
Thanks for being here.

(00:01:16.140):
Thank you for having me.

(00:01:17.421):
Thanks for coming and doing this.

(00:01:19.382):
So I want to start with, this is 2026.

(00:01:23.585):
You and I had talked briefly about the kind of post-2020 reckoning that happened,

(00:01:29.149):
you know,

(00:01:29.509):
in the wake of coming on the end of Trump's first term and all of the

(00:01:35.326):
challenges that have cut that came during his first term little did we know um

(00:01:39.547):
second term would be even worse but um and obviously George Floyd's murder and kind

(00:01:43.588):
of this awakening that many white folks had to something you've known the entirety

(00:01:48.710):
of your life and anyone who looks similar to you has also known the entirety of

(00:01:52.731):
their lives but this awakening to kind of the oh you mean we aren't in fact any

(00:01:57.072):
post-racial America right um

(00:02:00.669):
Yeah I know I'm just like remembering when people were like we're post-racial and I

(00:02:04.171):
was like you guys it's like that's not like no we're not but you know when a black

(00:02:09.214):
when the only black president ever has the biggest scandal because he wore a tan

(00:02:13.236):
suit and then we have a white pedophile in the office now and that's like anyway

(00:02:19.119):
okay so clearly we're not post-racial but that that sort of feeling that I think a

(00:02:22.861):
lot of people woke up to white people woke up to in 2020 you and many other people

(00:02:27.543):
who do DEI work were exceptionally busy for

(00:02:31.116):
A year?

(00:02:32.184):
Yeah.

(00:02:32.527):
Yeah.

(00:02:34.711):
and obviously a lot changed so I just want to sort of start there and get to 2026

(00:02:40.196):
because I'm curious why now for the book obviously in 2020 when you were very busy

(00:02:45.480):
and a lot of people who are doing similar work were there were a lot of books like

(00:02:49.143):
yours you know not the same as yours but a lot of books dealing with issues around

(00:02:53.267):
race written for white folks were coming out at that time what made you not write

(00:02:57.650):
it then and then kind of what has happened over these last six years that you were

(00:03:01.934):
like now's the time

(00:03:03.640):
yeah um it's a great question I didn't know that I wanted to write a book um then

(00:03:09.744):
and so I mean it's there are so many things that are going through my mind as

(00:03:12.886):
you're talking is like I'm reminded of

(00:03:16.435):
how angry and overworked I was during the summer and fall of 2020 because I was

(00:03:22.440):
working at a consulting company and the pandemic had just kind of hit the United

(00:03:27.464):
States in March of that year and so we had seen this like just indiscriminate like

(00:03:33.469):
slashing of DEI teams and budgets and so our company which was focused on

(00:03:38.773):
delivering DEI training and strategy was really struggling

(00:03:43.376):
and we had to do layoffs right there were all of these things that happened and

(00:03:48.499):
then George Floyd was murdered after all of the other murders that had been

(00:03:51.741):
happening right like I was looking back at my just like writing and like really my

(00:03:58.144):
calendar from that time I was like oh there was a lot going on and I was reflecting

(00:04:04.568):
on how it felt like literally I would wake up every single day and be like oh

(00:04:07.749):
there's another person's name that's a hashtag oh no

(00:04:13.597):
anyway when all of that kind of erupted suddenly those clients that had slashed

(00:04:19.758):
their teams and their budgets came back and were begging us to do workshops with

(00:04:23.879):
them and I was really angry because we had just laid off people that we had to go

(00:04:31.561):
then try to get back and the the

(00:04:38.478):
The demand that people suddenly had for real conversations about race and racism

(00:04:45.120):
was like a complete flip from what they had been telling us.

(00:04:49.022):
He was like,

(00:04:49.342):
I couldn't get clients to talk about microaggressions because they said,

(00:04:52.383):
if we have you do a workshop on microaggressions,

(00:04:54.523):
then that is going to be test acknowledgement that we know that microaggressions

(00:04:57.344):
are happening in the workplace.

(00:04:58.765):
It's like, yes, they are.

(00:05:03.926):
Now what?

(00:05:05.107):
Okay.

(00:05:06.162):
and so anyway I'm I'm just remembering I was yeah and and I actually in November of

(00:05:11.585):
2020 ended up having to take a leave of absence from work because of my because my

(00:05:16.107):
mental health was suffering um so much and so anyway I yeah so probably I didn't

(00:05:21.810):
think to write the book then because I was drowning in being you know all of the

(00:05:25.532):
things but what I learned from that experience and kind of that time is that you

(00:05:30.774):
know my dad actually told me he was like

(00:05:33.267):
even he's like you might write a book one day or whatever because like whenever

(00:05:36.189):
something happens to you write it down send yourself a voice note whenever that

(00:05:40.593):
moment is fresh because you're never going to be able to recall all of the same

(00:05:45.396):
feelings later on that you have in that moment and so I actually took his advice so

(00:05:49.840):
I have a lot of writing from that time and so they did make their way into my book

(00:05:55.694):
but ultimately the reason for why now is that it was this wonderful kind of

(00:06:01.378):
serendipitous just thing that happened I had been scrolling on Instagram I followed

(00:06:07.163):
Little Brown Spark which is an imprint of Little Brown which is a subset of

(00:06:10.865):
Hachette the publishing world is so interesting as I have learned

(00:06:16.388):
and they had a post calling for uh people who are underrepresented in the field of

(00:06:23.193):
publishing who had psychology degrees who wanted to publish a popular press

(00:06:27.096):
non-fiction book but had never published anything before and they were like if this

(00:06:31.620):
is you please submit your proposal and I was like like this is me um

(00:06:39.022):
and so I submitted my proposal I got the award that then led to me getting

(00:06:45.329):
connected with an agent who then negotiated my actual book deal and so you know I

(00:06:51.336):
actually didn't identify as a writer I

(00:06:57.295):
Remember thinking like I mean I came from academia and so I had a hard time kind of

(00:07:01.738):
writing in the academic style at the kind of pace that is typically required to get

(00:07:06.121):
tenure and so that I think really did a number on me I didn't think like I didn't

(00:07:10.363):
identify as an author and somebody actually said they're like you really like

(00:07:13.606):
talking so you know maybe you just think about doing talks instead of writing and

(00:07:19.489):
what actually helped me with my book is that I wrote it like I talk and so I

(00:07:24.143):
Yeah, but so why now?

(00:07:25.304):
Because Little Brown Spark and Psychotherapy Networker combined to put out a call

(00:07:30.949):
for people like me and I said yes and here we are.

(00:07:36.213):
I did not anticipate it would be coming out in this climate.

(00:07:43.260):
I have worked at places that

(00:07:46.891):
will not even say the title of my book because the company does not say the word

(00:07:52.115):
racism and racist.

(00:07:54.997):
And there have been places that,

(00:07:56.658):
you know,

(00:07:56.918):
clients of mine who had previously been talking about how they would love to have

(00:08:00.180):
me come and talk to their company and whatnot,

(00:08:02.241):
that it's been radio silence since then.

(00:08:05.964):
So it's an interesting time, but I'm really proud that my book is out there.

(00:08:11.640):
Well, I think it's needed.

(00:08:13.281):
And I think the timing is probably serendipitous in many ways that this all worked

(00:08:18.265):
out because,

(00:08:20.007):
I mean,

(00:08:20.647):
the only time we needed the book more was yesterday and then the day before that,

(00:08:23.870):
right?

(00:08:24.230):
Yeah.

(00:08:25.772):
And like to your point,

(00:08:26.592):
you said that there were a lot of books that were,

(00:08:28.294):
you know,

(00:08:28.614):
kind of came out in 2020 or that people kind of rediscovered around that time.

(00:08:33.058):
And I have often described my book as

(00:08:36.348):
Becky Mollenkamp Feminist Founders

(00:08:49.239):
was very adamant with my editor.

(00:08:51.361):
I was like, I'm not going to spend time in my book convincing people that racism exists.

(00:08:55.365):
That's not what this book is going to be about.

(00:08:57.828):
In the introduction, I tell you racism is real.

(00:09:01.251):
I also tell you that racism against white people is not a thing.

(00:09:05.095):
That's the introduction.

(00:09:07.497):
What we spend time doing is unpacking

(00:09:09.919):
how racism shows up in the variety of ways that it does and why people from

(00:09:14.702):
different racial groups like people in particular might not be as attuned to some

(00:09:18.164):
of those ways that it shows up and then what to do about it so yeah very

(00:09:22.226):
evidence-based very tactical and also a little bit funny one of the reviews that I

(00:09:28.250):
got was like if you've read one book like this you've read them all and I was like

(00:09:31.131):
but this book was written by Dr.

(00:09:32.532):
Evelyn Carter and I am confident that you have never read a book written by me so

(00:09:36.054):
yeah

(00:09:36.823):
there you go and that is the confidence that we all need to be bringing into every

(00:09:39.986):
room most especially a lot of time to get there yeah my husband of course they

(00:09:44.170):
don't know what they're talking about you're you and I was like that's well I mean

(00:09:47.092):
going back to racism because you know part of the premise is this is and what

(00:09:52.377):
you're saying here is it's not for people for whom racism only means you're using a

(00:09:57.622):
slur

(00:09:58.442):
Becky Mollenkamp

(00:10:17.115):
Yeah.

(00:10:39.375):
and I want to get into some of the specifics of that but let's start then because I

(00:10:42.758):
think we had talked about a specific incident that you have had recently because I

(00:10:47.863):
I think for those folks who sort of feel like hey I put up my black square on

(00:10:52.267):
Instagram in 2020 if you remember that whole thing I do remember and I wore the

(00:10:57.412):
pink pussy hat years before so I've always been a feminist and I and I've always

(00:11:01.176):
been an ally and all of these things yeah yeah

(00:11:03.855):
and they sort of are maybe thinking like I've been there I've done that I checked

(00:11:06.796):
the box I want to paint some pictures of just like this stuff is it's we are not

(00:11:12.099):
post-racial the world has not changed significantly since 2020 and if it has I

(00:11:18.142):
think there's an argument to be made that it's only that it's gotten worse not

(00:11:20.963):
better and I yeah okay good you're shaking it you're like yes so that's good so

(00:11:25.585):
let's talk about this specific example because I want to you know as much as we can

(00:11:28.746):
sort of stay in the professional space since most of our

(00:11:32.575):
Readers are people who are,

(00:11:33.756):
you know,

(00:11:34.217):
owning businesses and are wanting to think about these issues through that lens.

(00:11:37.380):
So you're part of a, you were, you attended a networking event, I believe it was, and then...

(00:11:43.424):
had to leave.

(00:11:44.004):
So talk,

(00:11:44.525):
if you can't just talk us through what happened,

(00:11:46.546):
because I think it's probably an example there of,

(00:11:48.968):
I don't know,

(00:11:49.748):
you can tell us whether it's micro or macro.

(00:11:51.970):
Yeah, yeah.

(00:11:53.571):
I think it's, well, we'll see.

(00:11:55.872):
I sometimes on Instagram, I have a series.

(00:11:57.533):
I haven't done one in a while, actually, but I do a like, was that racist series?

(00:12:00.695):
And I tell people a story and then I'm like,

(00:12:02.537):
I know what I would say,

(00:12:03.297):
but I'm curious about your question or your answer.

(00:12:05.098):
Like, was that racist?

(00:12:06.940):
Sometimes the answer that I would give is yes.

(00:12:08.521):
Sometimes it's no.

(00:12:09.541):
In this case, definitely racist.

(00:12:11.903):
So what happened, I had been invited to join a space that was for women authors.

(00:12:18.615):
And you said something that is very...

(00:12:21.460):
Coignant I think when you were like there is something that is special about you as

(00:12:24.561):
a black woman saying like you've never read a book by like by me before um that is

(00:12:28.683):
also important for you as a woman to say but that is different as a white woman

(00:12:31.624):
versus and I and that that knowledge of the ways in which our identities are

(00:12:35.906):
similar in terms of our gender but are different because our gender experience is

(00:12:40.468):
very much shaped by our race um it's something that was missing in this space um

(00:12:45.834):
and so it was a group for and I was excited about it because I had been trying to

(00:12:50.417):
network with other women who were authors and I actually made some great

(00:12:53.099):
connections in there but basically what drew me to the space was that they had this

(00:12:59.363):
wonderful set of agreements up front and so before you were even nominated you had

(00:13:05.847):
to review like here is what here are the rules of engagement here and I

(00:13:11.369):
they were comprehensive and they were fantastic and so I was like okay these people

(00:13:15.351):
have put a lot of thought and energy into creating a space that is you know gonna

(00:13:20.474):
be like-minded people who are all aligned on the same principles for how we engage

(00:13:27.998):
and I really love that I'm a big fan of like setting norms and agreements for

(00:13:31.620):
anything that you do even like my book club and so

(00:13:36.982):
There was an exchange between two members where somebody made basically an offhand

(00:13:42.746):
comment that when I read it,

(00:13:44.968):
I was like,

(00:13:45.328):
oh,

(00:13:46.389):
it's not great.

(00:13:49.792):
And maybe they were speaking from their personal experience, right?

(00:13:53.094):
Maybe not.

(00:13:53.654):
But it was like to the tune of like, all dogs hate cats, but it was about people.

(00:13:59.839):
But it was that same level of like,

(00:14:01.862):
Everybody from this group exists in this way, and therefore, I don't deal with dogs.

(00:14:08.224):
And there was somebody else who I actually know who responded and was like,

(00:14:12.565):
that was kind of an ouch moment for me.

(00:14:14.785):
Like, I didn't love that.

(00:14:17.406):
And so I saw that exchange.

(00:14:21.087):
This is online.

(00:14:21.727):
And I was like, oh, my God, what a beautiful opportunity to live together.

(00:14:29.316):
The norms and agreements that we all signed up for because there was somebody who

(00:14:33.097):
said something,

(00:14:33.717):
somebody else responded and was like,

(00:14:35.038):
ouch,

(00:14:35.658):
like,

(00:14:35.798):
you know,

(00:14:36.538):
just a quick like,

(00:14:37.178):
hey.

(00:14:38.199):
And this could be an opportunity for the person to say, oops, let me try again.

(00:14:42.440):
That is not what they did.

(00:14:43.921):
They doubled down.

(00:14:44.721):
They said, well, actually, in my experience, all dogs do hate cats.

(00:14:48.682):
And I am right to not want to deal with dogs.

(00:14:51.203):
And actually, you're making me feel really bad for saying that I don't like dogs.

(00:14:54.624):
And I feel like that's actually racist more so than the thing that I said.

(00:14:59.738):
so then I watched that and I was like uh oh and um it bothered me it bothered me I

(00:15:05.844):
talked to my husband about it I showed the exchange I talked to my mom like I

(00:15:09.008):
talked to a lot of people about this exchange and I was waiting for somebody

(00:15:15.214):
perhaps the co-creators of this group to chime in and when they did

(00:15:22.563):
They said, it's better to take these conversations offline.

(00:15:25.886):
Hey, person who said that this was an ouch moment, you shouldn't have responded at all.

(00:15:31.151):
And so then I replied.

(00:15:32.211):
So I was like, well, here we are.

(00:15:33.793):
And I want to actually note something,

(00:15:37.656):
which is that I am very aware that when I go into spaces,

(00:15:41.279):
I'm a Black woman.

(00:15:42.240):
I'm very opinionated.

(00:15:43.001):
I'm loud.

(00:15:43.361):
I'm five foot two and a half.

(00:15:44.262):
But like, I'm vibrant.

(00:15:46.245):
I also don't want to always have to be the quote unquote DEI voice in a space.

(00:15:52.169):
And so I was happy to join this group of other women authors.

(00:15:57.412):
I did not want to join as the DEI person.

(00:16:02.455):
And yet, I put on my DEI person hat because I knew that this was a problem.

(00:16:07.218):
And I said,

(00:16:07.738):
hey,

(00:16:08.759):
I'm actually really thankful that this person responded publicly and said,

(00:16:13.161):
ouch,

(00:16:13.482):
because

(00:16:14.733):
Everybody needs to, you know, this is how we create community.

(00:16:17.534):
This is how we learn.

(00:16:19.014):
I actually talk about this in my book.

(00:16:20.735):
Was that racist, right?

(00:16:23.236):
And crickets.

(00:16:26.757):
And so then I sent a message to the co-creators of the group and I said,

(00:16:32.999):
hey,

(00:16:33.239):
like this is an opportunity for you to reset on what our norms are.

(00:16:37.500):
And in fact, like remind people, like we said, we're a community.

(00:16:41.042):
We're always learning.

(00:16:42.657):
um and perhaps this is an opportunity to revise the norms so that we can be more

(00:16:48.880):
specific about what happens when somebody you know has one of those learning

(00:16:52.643):
moments in public and one of the people responded and she was like I'm just not

(00:16:56.425):
sure what you want me to do about this and I was like I was pretty clear I actually

(00:17:03.128):
detailed for you exactly what to do um and I I'm very proud of myself because I

(00:17:08.611):
then responded and I said

(00:17:10.430):
The fact that you gave this hopeless response is an example of the white feminism

(00:17:16.471):
that I am not here for.

(00:17:17.451):
And I was like, I have too many spaces in my life where I have to tiptoe and be like that.

(00:17:21.432):
And I was like, I appreciate what this group could offer, but like, this ain't it.

(00:17:25.333):
And I left.

(00:17:26.993):
I did find out later that actually one of the co-founders did,

(00:17:30.294):
or co-coast group,

(00:17:31.314):
did send a message to the group,

(00:17:34.114):
like basically talking about how they were going to revise the language and

(00:17:38.095):
how they were going to, and also like referencing my book, which I thought was very cool.

(00:17:43.913):
But for me, it was too little too late.

(00:17:46.039):
one thing that I will say I appreciate is that the person who had invited me to

(00:17:49.040):
that group to begin with is a white woman and she was on the thread that I had sent

(00:17:54.463):
and she did chime in and say hey I think what Evelyn is saying is da da da da and

(00:17:59.425):
so I do appreciate that even in that moment there was some allyship that was coming

(00:18:03.087):
from the person who invited me into the space right perhaps because she was aware

(00:18:06.549):
that like as a white woman she was inviting me into a space with other white women

(00:18:09.510):
who were white womening and she was like guys get it together

(00:18:14.479):
But anyway, that was the situation.

(00:18:15.840):
And so what I think the takeaway from that is when we are setting up any kind of

(00:18:22.382):
community or event or situation or gathering,

(00:18:26.964):
it's lovely to have norms that say how that govern how we are going to engage in

(00:18:32.186):
the space ideally.

(00:18:34.847):
What we also need to be prepared for is when people want to use those norms to

(00:18:38.688):
create and sustain the safe space that you were promising with those norms and

(00:18:43.330):
agreements.

(00:18:44.377):
And that safe space may and will come at the expense of the comfort of other

(00:18:50.861):
people,

(00:18:51.221):
particularly those from dominant groups,

(00:18:53.002):
and that's okay.

(00:18:54.603):
And in that moment,

(00:18:55.444):
ultimately,

(00:18:56.064):
what the group chose is the comfort of the person who had made the comment,

(00:19:00.967):
then protecting the psychological safety for everybody else,

(00:19:04.569):
particularly the folks of color.

(00:19:06.750):
And that's not cool.

(00:19:07.971):
So that was what happened.

(00:19:10.122):
Okay, good.

(00:19:10.663):
There's so much here we can talk about.

(00:19:11.684):
So first of all,

(00:19:13.086):
one of the things that I say as somebody who does a lot of community creation and

(00:19:16.932):
space building is I always like to,

(00:19:20.617):
one,

(00:19:21.298):
when I'm in a space like that where there's a lot of folks in the room and I'm

(00:19:24.824):
traveling.

(00:19:25.104):
I think it's really valuable to enter a space acknowledging your blind spots.

(00:19:34.518):
So to say,

(00:19:35.599):
I am a white woman,

(00:19:36.881):
and with that identity and the privilege that comes with that identity,

(00:19:39.705):
I know.

(00:19:40.106):
Yes

(00:19:57.565):
Feminist

(00:20:18.283):
the piece that I often see missing is that second part of harm repair it's like

(00:20:22.684):
here's how we want to show up but there's no thought about and then as you see when

(00:20:27.905):
it happens there's no plan for or process for what do we do when something actually

(00:20:32.567):
doesn't live up to these ideas right and so I'm guessing were they lacking the harm

(00:20:36.367):
repair process in that okay and I think and I would say even like from what I

(00:20:41.149):
recall of the of the kind of norms and kind of they had it

(00:20:47.420):
built in.

(00:20:48.041):
What I actually think they were missing was the follow-through on the

(00:20:50.743):
accountability piece,

(00:20:51.744):
right?

(00:20:51.944):
Which accountability is my favorite word because that's often what's missing is

(00:20:55.287):
that,

(00:20:55.447):
you know,

(00:20:55.708):
we can say,

(00:20:57.089):
so for example,

(00:20:58.090):
I work with a lot of corporations and as I'm sure you are aware and have

(00:21:03.375):
experienced,

(00:21:04.075):
interrupting is like rampant within corporate culture.

(00:21:07.899):
I will say as somebody who grew up in a Black

(00:21:13.418):
Anywho

(00:21:31.223):
What research has shown is that the kind of interrupting of like,

(00:21:35.347):
I'm building my tower and then I'm going to come knock yours down happens a lot to

(00:21:38.549):
women in corporate spaces.

(00:21:41.752):
And so when I'm working with companies, first of all, I share this data.

(00:21:45.735):
And of course, like the men in the room are like, what?

(00:21:47.377):
This happens?

(00:21:48.097):
And then the women in the room are like, yeah, it just did.

(00:21:50.980):
There's actually one time where the guy who was like literally the worst offender

(00:21:54.583):
of interrupting in the company was like,

(00:21:57.538):
I did not know this was possible and I could just see the steam rising off of

(00:22:03.622):
anyway so what I say to them is you know it's one thing to have a norm that says

(00:22:08.085):
don't interrupt it's an entirely different thing to have a norm that says do not

(00:22:12.308):
interrupt and when you do here is what is going to happen and then actually do that

(00:22:17.011):
thing right so if you start interrupting Becky and then I say please stop and then

(00:22:25.657):
you keep going

(00:22:27.438):
that doesn't actually live up to the norm right so instead what I tell people is

(00:22:31.539):
you need to practice being like hey when you interrupt I'm going to say Becky let's

(00:22:35.760):
let Evelyn finish her thought and then you can chime in if you would like and if

(00:22:39.962):
you keep it no let's wait and let Evelyn finish her thought right and as I'm saying

(00:22:44.943):
this reminding me of how much I have to repeat myself with my three-year-old but as

(00:22:48.024):
I told somebody recently three-year-olds and 30-year-olds don't have a lot of

(00:22:50.505):
difference differences between them

(00:22:52.650):
But yeah,

(00:22:53.110):
so the follow-through on the what happens when the norms are violated and then

(00:22:57.971):
making sure that you are actually doing that thing is really what was missing in

(00:23:01.252):
this space and in a lot of spaces because I think it's hard to realize like,

(00:23:06.133):
oh no,

(00:23:07.493):
I have to chime in and like be the moderator.

(00:23:10.534):
But that role is so crucial.

(00:23:16.735):
And in fact, I'm

(00:23:18.651):
a part of another group of black women authors that is now under development and

(00:23:23.234):
during one of our first meetings when we were just kind of like throwing ideas

(00:23:26.595):
around about what we wanted space to be I was like hey we need to have some strong

(00:23:30.117):
community agreements and some people who are designated moderators who are going to

(00:23:34.039):
follow through on those things I am happy to be one of those people because it's

(00:23:38.241):
very important to me it's hard to do but it's the only way that you create a

(00:23:42.663):
community that people actually want to stick around in yeah

(00:23:47.426):
I love all of that and the other piece of what you had said earlier that I wanted

(00:23:50.771):
to also just throw out my thoughts and either get your reaction or we don't have to

(00:23:55.558):
is talking about safe space and

(00:24:00.077):
I,

(00:24:00.357):
as a white woman,

(00:24:01.218):
have come to a place after doing a lot of work and by no means saying that I have

(00:24:06.784):
checked off the box of anti-racism work because I know it's a lifelong journey You

(00:24:10.447):
did it!

(00:24:11.548):
I'm done!

(00:24:11.949):
Yay!

(00:24:12.289):
A plus!

(00:24:13.010):
Gold star!

(00:24:14.591):
But knowing that I'm pretty far down my journey at this point and have done quite a

(00:24:17.594):
bit of work,

(00:24:19.256):
I have come to this conclusion that

(00:24:21.985):
I don't think I can ever create a safe space for black women I think I can create

(00:24:25.687):
safer spaces but I don't think I can ever create a safe space and not just for

(00:24:29.389):
black women also for disabled women for folks who have identities I don't hold for

(00:24:33.611):
trans women you know I'm queer but I'm not trans I can't understand that experience

(00:24:38.254):
and I don't think any amount of

(00:24:40.587):
My own unlearning will ever give me the, I'll never have the living experience, right?

(00:24:45.454):
I just,

(00:24:46.075):
I think there will always be the opportunity and probably the reality of harm that

(00:24:50.562):
I will cause.

(00:24:51.764):
And so I don't think that when you know that there is that, that you can actually create a C.

(00:24:55.909):
but I do think the aim of trying to create safer spaces feels better and I see you

(00:25:00.470):
smiling and that makes me feel good because other black women I've said that to

(00:25:02.891):
have said that it actually feels really like that actually feels almost more

(00:25:06.572):
invitational than somebody who's saying I'm creating a safe space for black women

(00:25:11.293):
as a white woman so I would just love your feedback on that because that's kind of

(00:25:14.014):
where I've been sitting lately yeah it makes me smile because what I'm thinking of

(00:25:18.855):
actually is a white woman that I worked with um

(00:25:23.867):
I'm a

(00:25:50.704):
who was like fairly quiet and I was like do you have any idea what we're talking

(00:25:53.446):
about and they were like no and they're like but go ahead like keep going and it

(00:25:58.191):
was this wonderful moment where I was like they are not making me pause and explain

(00:26:06.958):
something to them because they feel left out of Black culture.

(00:26:11.059):
They're realizing that if they don't know,

(00:26:13.080):
they can do the Googling on their own or they can just kind of observe and watch.

(00:26:16.641):
This doesn't need to be a conversation that they have to actively participate in

(00:26:20.723):
between these two Black folks,

(00:26:21.723):
right?

(00:26:22.283):
And it was this wonderfully safe feeling that it gave me knowing that.

(00:26:27.625):
And so I do think that for all of us who are trying to create spaces where people

(00:26:33.987):
from a variety of backgrounds are going to interact,

(00:26:36.880):
That knowledge that we can always do our best to create a safer environment,

(00:26:40.582):
but we are never going to be completely safe is great.

(00:26:44.944):
And I think it's really fascinating because I can hear the people who are like, but I am safe.

(00:26:48.987):
Like, I want you to know, like, I am a safe space.

(00:26:50.828):
I'm an ally.

(00:26:52.128):
But what I am hearing from you is that you are always doing your best.

(00:26:57.158):
to be open and to, you know, to do what you think makes sense.

(00:27:02.620):
But there are always going to be things that you don't consider because you're not

(00:27:07.262):
a part of our group and you don't have that lived experience that you can draw

(00:27:10.444):
from.

(00:27:12.004):
And so what I think really makes a space safe is the willingness to say,

(00:27:18.467):
I'm going to do my very best and here is how you can know that I have done the

(00:27:22.449):
prerequisite work necessary to make this like minimum good,

(00:27:26.751):
right?

(00:27:27.705):
and also that I am always going to be open to your feedback and that when you give

(00:27:32.207):
it to me,

(00:27:32.687):
I'm not going to lash out.

(00:27:34.308):
I'm not going to tell you that it's just as racist to call me out as the thing that

(00:27:39.150):
I said and that that's how you kind of like bit by bit build safety.

(00:27:45.473):
What I will also say,

(00:27:46.653):
though,

(00:27:47.173):
is that I am very adamant about the fact that some people deserve safe spaces and

(00:27:54.877):
other people don't.

(00:27:57.281):
need to have courage and do not.

(00:28:00.002):
Some people, like, I feel like 10 years ago it was like safe space versus brave space.

(00:28:03.263):
I don't know.

(00:28:04.343):
There's a lot of jargon out there.

(00:28:06.404):
But basically what it boils down to for me is that if you are a person in a

(00:28:11.066):
dominant group or have a dominant identity,

(00:28:14.287):
the world is created for you.

(00:28:16.687):
And what that means is that your safety is kind of the default.

(00:28:21.609):
If you are somebody from a marginalized group, that is not the case.

(00:28:25.178):
And so when I go into various spaces,

(00:28:29.183):
I'm brave every day just existing in this world as a Black woman.

(00:28:33.788):
What I need in these spaces is to feel safe,

(00:28:36.932):
to feel like I can proverbially take my bra off,

(00:28:40.256):
let my hair down and just ugh,

(00:28:41.878):
right?

(00:28:43.007):
If you are somebody that is existing with safety as your default,

(00:28:46.934):
then you are going to find that the things that make me feel safe might be things

(00:28:51.963):
that make you feel challenged because you are confronting a different reality.

(00:28:57.021):
And so your safety as a dominant group person is not the priority.

(00:29:01.445):
Your courage, your bravery, your willingness to accept that discomfort is.

(00:29:06.169):
And that actually is how you create safety for me and in turn create safety for

(00:29:12.314):
yourself too because we realize that we can trust each other as we are learning and

(00:29:16.158):
growing together.

(00:29:17.279):
But that's something that I think is really important.

(00:29:19.080):
But yeah, I just, I love

(00:29:21.017):
I love the acknowledgement that like I might not be a safe space and but I'm always

(00:29:27.298):
going to try to be safer every day.

(00:29:29.879):
Yeah well I want to get into discomfort so this is perfect because one of the

(00:29:33.620):
reasons I know that I'm at least not yet can't be a fully safe space is because I

(00:29:37.921):
do still when I get called in or when I am challenged or when something comes up my

(00:29:44.783):
go-to sensation in my body is different from this.

(00:29:49.304):
It is

(00:29:51.224):
Right?

(00:29:51.484):
That feeling of like, uh-oh, discomfort has arisen and I need to fight off the discomfort.

(00:29:57.949):
And as you experience in that writer's group you're talking about,

(00:30:00.651):
often that looks like,

(00:30:01.612):
for some white women,

(00:30:02.473):
I think it can look like the defensiveness can show up as like pushing back.

(00:30:07.236):
Sometimes it can look like the...

(00:30:11.050):
the tears show up right like a bad person right let me make you now coddle comfort

(00:30:17.295):
me sometimes I could look like just I'm gonna escape because I can't be with this

(00:30:21.078):
discomfort but the discomfort showing up isn't the problem the discomfort is

(00:30:26.582):
conditioned and I'm excited to hear what you have to say here but I can I'm sure

(00:30:30.065):
you're probably like yeah the discomfort is gonna be there right because that is

(00:30:33.467):
because I saw in something you wrote about like how white folks aren't socialized

(00:30:37.330):
Ruffing Feathers

(00:31:07.250):
you got sharp elbows right let's take that offline oh my god all of that so

(00:31:12.702):
probably seeing why corporate America and I didn't get along it's the worst right

(00:31:17.484):
but that immediate reaction isn't it's a problem but it isn't really the problem

(00:31:23.226):
the problem is how are you with that reaction what happens when the reaction shows

(00:31:28.308):
up and I think that's important for white people to hear that like because I think

(00:31:32.209):
too often what we think we're supposed like oh if I'm still showing up like that

(00:31:35.570):
then I'm bad right and then that isn't the work the work isn't to say how do I make

(00:31:41.152):
sure there's never going to be discomfort about these issues

(00:31:44.113):
Yeah, yeah.

(00:32:03.902):
I have a role here,

(00:32:04.682):
a responsibility here as a person with privilege in the room to not make Evelyn

(00:32:08.824):
have to be the one who always has this conversation,

(00:32:11.225):
right?

(00:32:11.805):
So just,

(00:32:12.806):
I would love to hear some of your thoughts about politeness and professionalism and

(00:32:17.528):
just white discomfort and how that is keeping us from actually being allies.

(00:32:23.710):
Yes.

(00:32:24.371):
Okay.

(00:32:24.671):
So I was recently...

(00:32:28.272):
I was making updates to my website and I was going back to one of the first popular

(00:32:33.119):
press articles I wrote,

(00:32:34.120):
which is about the Starbucks training.

(00:32:36.443):
Remember when Starbucks shut down all of their cafes for day-long training?

(00:32:40.929):
And I

(00:32:45.430):
the headline which I did not pick but it was brilliant is Starbucks diversity

(00:32:49.416):
training won't work unless it makes white people uncomfortable and I I still

(00:32:54.644):
remember being like kudos to the editor for like really seeing exactly the thesis

(00:32:59.631):
of what my

(00:33:00.372):
And I'll see you next time.

(00:33:28.300):
But yeah, so chapter two talks all about discomfort.

(00:33:30.861):
And what I love actually is, and I'm a social psychologist, so research is like my jam.

(00:33:35.283):
And there's a lot of research on what's called the self-regulation of prejudice.

(00:33:40.665):
And it's interesting to me because I am a mom of a three and a half year old and a

(00:33:45.087):
one and a half year old.

(00:33:45.787):
And with my three and a half year old, we're actually working a lot on self-regulation, right?

(00:33:49.308):
Like with her emotions.

(00:33:51.160):
and basically what it is for her is noticing that when her body feels activated,

(00:33:56.802):
when she's like responding because there's something happening that she doesn't

(00:33:59.543):
like,

(00:34:00.263):
teaching her that the reaction should not be that she flops on the ground and just

(00:34:04.324):
wails.

(00:34:05.885):
And to be frank,

(00:34:08.225):
lots of white people have the emotion regulation skills of a three-year-old when it

(00:34:13.547):
comes to conversations about racism.

(00:34:15.248):
So all the things that you were just saying are

(00:34:16.953):
the discomfort they like are proverbially or like sometimes literally wailing right

(00:34:21.875):
and so the thing that I've got research is that it has looked at the ways that

(00:34:28.417):
people respond when they are told that they have done or said something that is

(00:34:33.239):
biased and there's this counterintuitive finding that when you are receive that

(00:34:39.421):
feedback people who turn those feelings inward who are disappointed in themselves

(00:34:45.663):
who

(00:34:46.185):
who are feeling ashamed or guilty,

(00:34:49.786):
those are the people that actually change their behavior for the better for the

(00:34:53.348):
future.

(00:34:54.488):
People who turn those emotions outward and feel angry at the person or upset with

(00:35:01.171):
them,

(00:35:01.651):
those are the ones who lash out.

(00:35:03.511):
And so what that means is that we have to find a way to notice that the discomfort

(00:35:09.734):
in our body is a sign that we need to pause.

(00:35:12.835):
And so the same thing that I tell my three-year-old applies here.

(00:35:16.460):
Take a deep breath Notice what's happening in your body If you feel like you're

(00:35:21.683):
going to cry and you're a white woman don't put your tears on the other person step

(00:35:25.246):
away and come back and learn to verbalize why you're feeling the way that you are

(00:35:33.671):
feeling without centering yourself You're not feeling discomfort because they made

(00:35:39.175):
you feel bad You are feeling this way because you learned that you did something

(00:35:46.362):
Becky Mollenkamp

(00:36:09.637):
and I she was like ow mama you scratched me and my instinct still was like I didn't

(00:36:16.039):
mean it but instead what I said is you're right I did I'm very sorry I need to slow

(00:36:22.520):
down and she said yeah mama you need to slow down next time and so that is my way

(00:36:28.261):
of with her letting her know I recognize that I did harm I am going to tell you the

(00:36:33.023):
solution which is I'm going to slow down not say to you I didn't mean to because at

(00:36:37.104):
the end of the day her leg was scratched right

(00:36:39.467):
So all of this is a roundabout way of talking about how discomfort in conversations

(00:36:43.228):
about racism is something that we need to learn to sit with and that white people

(00:36:46.769):
in particular who have been socialized to be like polite and whatnot.

(00:36:50.050):
Really what that is,

(00:36:51.270):
is a rejection of the idea that I need to hold that discomfort in myself and learn

(00:36:57.272):
how to process it.

(00:36:58.712):
And what the research shows is that when you get good at doing that,

(00:37:02.213):
that's actually how you change your behavior to prevent those similar things from

(00:37:05.374):
happening again in the future.

(00:37:08.286):
I mean yeah I just I love it I'm thinking about my kid and you know I think so many

(00:37:13.749):
of us were parented in the ways that we are also now showing up with racism many of

(00:37:20.372):
the way you're talking about parenting is how I parent that's not how many of us

(00:37:23.394):
were parented we were gaslit by our parents we were you know all of the things we

(00:37:28.917):
were like oh shut up get over it it's not a big deal I didn't mean to do it

(00:37:33.139):
whatever right and we

(00:37:35.730):
are often doing that to other people and I think it's again it's because like you

(00:37:38.871):
said socialize these are learned behaviors and I think that might be part of the

(00:37:43.152):
problem that many white folks have is because for them that word racism is so

(00:37:47.593):
charged as it should be because guess what oh I like that yeah think about on the

(00:37:52.575):
other side of that living with that experience where we make it so charged for us

(00:37:56.056):
as if it's the worst thing that we could be called but think about living on the

(00:37:58.216):
other side of it but I think because that word is so charged and

(00:38:01.513):
like we were avoiding it like hot coal right like I just I can't have that near me

(00:38:06.896):
and so we end up resorting to or just like falling in with those learned behaviors

(00:38:11.638):
and in those moments it's really hard to

(00:38:15.117):
Show up as that person you want to be right it can be really hard to put your the

(00:38:19.678):
things that you sort of have learned through book learning or whatever because we

(00:38:23.999):
we aren't learning it necessarily through lived experience we resort to that like

(00:38:27.460):
immediate socialized response of yeah no no it wasn't me and I didn't mean to and

(00:38:32):
whatever and I think for white women in particular that experience of the crying

(00:38:36.201):
and I think um I mean maybe rather than me talking about I would love for you to no

(00:38:41.162):
no it's great I'm enjoying yeah well just why that's so

(00:38:44.748):
Becky Mollenkamp Feminist Founders

(00:39:02.050):
it's okay it is much better for you to say I need a few minutes and then I will

(00:39:05.691):
come back and I want to deal with this I want to talk about this than it is to show

(00:39:09.253):
up and cry in those moments or in any other way center yourself but just explain

(00:39:14.775):
that really quick for white women who don't yet understand why that's so important

(00:39:18.957):
yeah um the the simplest reason is because when you cry people care that you're

(00:39:25.639):
upset and

(00:39:29.912):
That takes away from the initial thing that caused you to cry in the first place,

(00:39:34.414):
which is that I'm upset,

(00:39:36.714):
right?

(00:39:37.395):
So if I say to you,

(00:39:42.156):
Becky,

(00:39:42.937):
the thing that you,

(00:39:43.837):
you know,

(00:39:44.457):
you made a comment that really made me feel small and,

(00:39:49.119):
you know,

(00:39:49.799):
and less than,

(00:39:51.279):
and it felt like a micro,

(00:39:52.560):
maybe a macroaggression,

(00:39:54.561):
and you say,

(00:39:57.662):
and you start crying,

(00:40:00.146):
Everything in the room is going to shift toward making you,

(00:40:05.350):
with this very visible,

(00:40:06.811):
very big display of sadness and hurt,

(00:40:10.313):
be taken care of.

(00:40:11.314):
Yeah.

(00:40:13.215):
And nobody is taking care of me.

(00:40:16.437):
And at the end of the day, as you said, experiencing racism is worse than being called racist.

(00:40:22.601):
I promise you.

(00:40:23.402):
That is true.

(00:40:25.377):
but when we shift to caring about your tears what we are saying is that at a

(00:40:30.399):
minimum the experience of being called racist is as bad if not worse than

(00:40:35.341):
experiencing racism and often what happens is that the energy shifts so much to the

(00:40:41.223):
white woman's tears that we never get back to the person who was saying at the

(00:40:45.244):
beginning I was harmed so that's why the tears are so frustrating I also

(00:40:55.839):
I think it's important to note that some of this is just stereotypes as well so we

(00:41:02.981):
just saw and I actually did not see it because I wasn't watching that shit but we

(00:41:07.043):
just saw collectively right the UFC fighter who yes something and then was like you

(00:41:15.486):
know said Michelle Obama is a man which like what are we doing like dude it's 2026

(00:41:20.167):
find a new freaking punching bag but at any rate

(00:41:24.427):
The notion that black women are not feminine,

(00:41:28.809):
are not women,

(00:41:34.292):
goes back to slavery and far,

(00:41:36.713):
right?

(00:41:36.893):
Like this idea that we are workhorses and we're manly and we don't feel pain in the

(00:41:43.396):
same way as white women do.

(00:41:45.177):
Like all of that is why white tears

(00:41:50.102):
White Female Tears are so dangerous because it is reinforcing that you,

(00:41:55.825):
this tiny little precious white woman,

(00:41:58.706):
are being attacked by the angry,

(00:42:00.327):
aggressive black woman and you need to be protected at all costs.

(00:42:04.289):
And that does so much harm because it reinforces this idea that you are precious

(00:42:10.352):
and feminine and I am not.

(00:42:12.573):
And so that's like the white tears in the moment are harmful because it's shifting

(00:42:17.016):
the focus of who needs to be taken care of.

(00:42:19.937):
But in the broader sense,

(00:42:21.398):
it really is tapping into this,

(00:42:23.758):
like,

(00:42:24.519):
centuries-long narrative that white women are,

(00:42:29.260):
you know,

(00:42:29.600):
need to be protected from the angry,

(00:42:31.801):
aggressive black women.

(00:42:33.102):
And that I just, like, I have no patience for.

(00:42:36.203):
Yeah.

(00:42:38.043):
And just to go back to something we talked about earlier and to reiterate,

(00:42:41.605):
and your tears and my tears are not the same.

(00:42:45.485):
and are not treated or seen the same.

(00:42:47.752):
So you could be crying so I might be...

(00:42:50.536):
and some of it like let's all you know mirror neurons kick in you're crying I'm

(00:42:54.819):
feeling mad like it's not to say that it's not about like saying hey white woman

(00:42:59.582):
you're not allowed to feel right it's none of that it's saying if you need to do

(00:43:03.665):
that the thing is then to say I need a moment and go deal with that on your own so

(00:43:08.769):
it doesn't become centered in the room because your tears are going to take away

(00:43:11.631):
from her tears and her tears are the tears that matter in the moment so and I threw

(00:43:15.173):
out a book called White Tears Brown Scars by Ruby Mott

(00:43:17.955):
And also your book, obviously, as well, Is That Racist?

(00:43:22.498):
Because these things are really important for us to learn.

(00:43:25.559):
And we've talked about micro and macro aggressions, you know, the macro being like a slur.

(00:43:32.463):
We super obvious and also kind of speak to this like global idea around like racism.

(00:43:38.706):
And there's like the micro, it's the little things that happen.

(00:43:43.393):
I would love if you could just share for people who are in the workspace,

(00:43:47.214):
whether they are people who have employees or just a person of one,

(00:43:50.635):
but you're showing up in networking calls as a white person.

(00:43:54.176):
You're going to client meetings.

(00:43:56.217):
You are hiring potentially, even if you don't have employees, you're hiring contractors.

(00:44:00.338):
You're on social media engaging.

(00:44:03.239):
We are always all in community.

(00:44:05.459):
So even if you are a business of one, you have

(00:44:07.980):
the opportunity all the time as a white person to cause a lot of harm and not even

(00:44:12.942):
recognize it because as you say,

(00:44:15.183):
you haven't been socialized to see that as what it is.

(00:44:18.904):
And I think very often we're actually socialized to really convince ourselves

(00:44:22.866):
things aren't racist that are.

(00:44:25.286):
So could you give some examples

(00:44:27.207):
that aren't too painful for you to share.

(00:44:28.949):
You know,

(00:44:29.289):
I don't want to like,

(00:44:29.949):
it's not,

(00:44:30.270):
I don't want this to become like a trauma thing,

(00:44:32.051):
but instead of what like microaggressions,

(00:44:34.933):
because again,

(00:44:35.414):
for people who are like,

(00:44:36.515):
oh,

(00:44:36.635):
well,

(00:44:36.855):
it's not like I used a slur.

(00:44:38.096):
Like what are the things that they may not even realize they're doing in moments

(00:44:42.019):
that are problematic that they need to be looking for some accountability,

(00:44:47.083):
like offering accountability for?

(00:44:49.245):
Yeah.

(00:44:49.925):
So I'll say a couple of things.

(00:44:51.327):
The first of which is that, you know,

(00:44:54.252):
There are lots of words to describe the experience of racism and how it shows up,

(00:44:59.139):
and those words are often imprecise for how the experience varies across people,

(00:45:06.129):
right?

(00:45:06.449):
So I do talk about microaggressions in my book.

(00:45:10.315):
and I also talk to people who are like none of the things that you are describing

(00:45:14.339):
feel like microaggression they feel very macro to me like it's very obvious right

(00:45:18.422):
so when I'm talking about microaggressions for better for worse I'm thinking I'm

(00:45:21.645):
talking about like the fleeting like I think it's like drive by racism right where

(00:45:25.768):
it's just like you're like you throw out a comment and you keep it going it's the

(00:45:29.472):
like oh you're so articulate and keep it going oh your hair is wild today which

(00:45:34.356):
somebody had recently just said not to me but to somebody else right like there are

(00:45:37.939):
these

(00:45:38.684):
These things that are very rooted in racism and when I think the disconnect between

(00:45:43.467):
the label microaggressions for people is that like I know that those are racist

(00:45:47.490):
statements and so they don't feel micro they feel very like glaring to me but

(00:45:55.135):
microaggressions for better or for worse refers to those like fleeting interactions

(00:45:59.258):
that are just like oh I think about them as like verbal paper cuts or mosquito

(00:46:04.762):
bites right they're the things that like I probably can shake them off

(00:46:09.850):
But over time,

(00:46:11.191):
if I've got a handful of paper cuts,

(00:46:12.874):
like that's going to hurt,

(00:46:13.995):
especially when I get in the shower and wash my hands with soap,

(00:46:16.899):
right?

(00:46:17.840):
So those are microaggressions.

(00:46:20.173):
you know and the experiences of them vary I wrote about this one in my newsletter

(00:46:26.877):
recently which to the conversation we were having earlier about like you know kind

(00:46:31.240):
of reflecting on those experiences it was something that happened to me in like

(00:46:34.662):
2017 but I had written it down in my journal and it was fresh when it came back to

(00:46:38.925):
write about it of a man who after I gave a presentation was like you know you're a

(00:46:46.130):
great speaker but you'd be even more effective if you were just an older white man

(00:46:49.964):
and I think that he was like trying to commiserate with me because he was also a

(00:46:52.905):
man of color being like man like these people would really listen to you more if

(00:46:56.287):
you just you know were not you um but it wasn't experienced as anything great um

(00:47:04.230):
another example is when I was getting ready to present and I was loading up my

(00:47:11.033):
presentation on my computer which was on the podium and somebody walked in they're

(00:47:14.315):
like are you the speaker I was like yes and they're like really you're the speaker

(00:47:17.056):
like you

(00:47:19.974):
you're the speaker and I was like three times like wow that's the record and so in

(00:47:25.278):
both of those cases right the the person probably was not intending they weren't

(00:47:32.843):
walking in being like I'm gonna say a racist thing or a misogynistic thing or a

(00:47:36.706):
misogynoiristic thing but they did and the experience of that for me right was like

(00:47:47.353):
Shook my confidence.

(00:47:48.874):
When I was getting ready to do the presentation,

(00:47:51.556):
I was like,

(00:47:51.997):
well,

(00:47:52.377):
now I know that there is at least one person in this room who has verbalized that

(00:47:56.280):
they can't believe that I,

(00:47:57.561):
this young Black woman who is five foot two and a half,

(00:48:00.083):
is really going to be their facilitator today.

(00:48:06.448):
Show up anyway, right?

(00:48:08.229):
And that feeling as a Black woman of knowing that I have to push down what

(00:48:12.310):
everybody else is thinking about me and show up anyway is really exhausting,

(00:48:17.052):
which goes back to why safe spaces are so important for us,

(00:48:19.492):
like knowing that I don't have to push anything down,

(00:48:21.293):
I can just be.

(00:48:23.394):
But what I also think is important and something that you brought up is like all of

(00:48:28.195):
these things,

(00:48:29.536):
calling them racist can feel very jarring to people,

(00:48:33.717):
right?

(00:48:34.017):
I don't think the person who, you know,

(00:48:36.512):
I know because when I've said about the story where the person was like really

(00:48:39.254):
you're the speaker I was like that was racist like well how do you know he didn't

(00:48:42.076):
say that he didn't think that you a black woman could be the speaker he was just

(00:48:45.338):
asking I was like yes but the questioning of my credibility suggests that somewhere

(00:48:51.402):
in his brain he couldn't wrap his mind around the fact that I was going to be the

(00:48:54.545):
person that was teaching him which suggests that he doesn't see me a black woman as

(00:48:58.287):
a person of authority which is racist

(00:49:01.916):
and that is the racist work that has been done to diminish black women and our

(00:49:07.140):
standing in society and he for better or for worse had bought into that in some way

(00:49:12.103):
shape or form by asking me this question and so what I often say to people is like

(00:49:17.267):
remember that just because you are thinking things in your brain doesn't mean that

(00:49:20.169):
they always need to come out and if you are someone that is

(00:49:25.203):
Looking at a person who is on a stage,

(00:49:28.564):
plugging in their computer and clicking through their slides,

(00:49:32.605):
assume that they are the speaker.

(00:49:35.365):
Maybe I was the IT person who was setting up the slides.

(00:49:38.946):
But in the moment,

(00:49:40.186):
if you have an opportunity to assume that the person from the underrepresented

(00:49:44.687):
group is a higher status role,

(00:49:47.308):
do it.

(00:49:48.377):
I think what so many people do is they assume that we are the lower status role and

(00:49:52.639):
I want to be very clear there is nothing wrong with being an IT person there is

(00:49:56.561):
nothing wrong with being a grocery store worker the issue is that nobody ever

(00:50:00.363):
assumes that the white person is the IT person or the grocery store worker they

(00:50:04.065):
always assume that they are the person who is the CEO or the president or the

(00:50:07.387):
patron or whatnot so assume that the person from the underrepresented group is the

(00:50:12.390):
higher status role and notice what happens to the things that come out of your

(00:50:16.812):
mouth in those moments

(00:50:18.637):
Well, I want to, if I can, I'm going to just share something vulnerable in that.

(00:50:23.583):
As you were sharing that example,

(00:50:25.846):
my mind immediately went to a place of,

(00:50:28.609):
but you look really young.

(00:50:29.810):
So it could just be that you're young, right?

(00:50:32.814):
And, but then, and then I think,

(00:50:35.859):
Yeah, yeah.

(00:50:54.925):
Come to that guy's rescue, justify, whatever.

(00:50:57.568):
And why at the expense of what you are telling me how you experienced it, right?

(00:51:02.734):
Because ultimately what matters is how you experienced it.

(00:51:05.277):
And if we are saying we want to center humans in any experience, that's the thing that matters.

(00:51:10.904):
And if you say to me,

(00:51:13.223):
It felt like there was at least some racism inside that statement.

(00:51:16.929):
Then it is important in coming on me then to say, okay, I don't have to fight you.

(00:51:22.156):
I don't have to say, oh, but it could have been whatever.

(00:51:24.400):
All that stuff I can just sit with and say, I can help.

(00:51:26.643):
Like you said, I can let those thoughts exist.

(00:51:28.105):
I'm sharing them now only in that.

(00:51:30.108):
We're having a live conversation and like that's the.

(00:51:31.911):
And I want to share it as an example of as the white person,

(00:51:34.554):
like I,

(00:51:35.035):
you know,

(00:51:35.456):
those things are going to come up for us.

(00:51:37.158):
It is again, it's that conditioning.

(00:51:39.181):
And so can we learn to do that work?

(00:51:40.864):
And I also just want to share one other thing vulnerably of an example,

(00:51:43.107):
where I caused harm in a room and what came of that.

(00:51:47.048):
So I was running a group program as a coach.

(00:51:49.448):
I had,

(00:51:49.828):
I don't know,

(00:51:50.589):
there's probably six to eight people on the call and one of the women in the room

(00:51:54.029):
was black.

(00:51:54.669):
All other women in the room were white.

(00:51:56.490):
And we were talking about,

(00:51:57.730):
she was offering up something about,

(00:51:59.090):
because we were talking about our goals and hers was around losing weight.

(00:52:02.271):
And I feel really strongly about diet culture and how harmful that is and all the

(00:52:07.472):
reasons problematic,

(00:52:08.612):
including racism being a reason is problematic.

(00:52:11.013):
Yeah.

(00:52:11.573):
Yeah, yeah.

(00:52:12.013):
Yeah.

(00:52:36.083):
And me feeling immediately like, it took a minute, it took longer than I wish it would have.

(00:52:39.565):
I wish I would have not talked before, you know, but this is the reality.

(00:52:43.167):
And I started to sense this like,

(00:52:45.428):
oh,

(00:52:46.508):
I just decided to lecture the only black woman in the room about diet culture and

(00:52:51.871):
its racist origins.

(00:52:54.625):
the only black woman in the room as a white woman so I was very quickly able to say

(00:52:59.247):
like you know in that moment not long after the rant to apologize and also ask her

(00:53:03.930):
to join me later for a conversation we did we talked it through and it ended up

(00:53:07.552):
being great in fact I think our relationship was deepened because of me being able

(00:53:11.614):
to acknowledge the harm and and move on from there but I'm not a no one's immune

(00:53:16.916):
like we're gonna cause harm and I just think that piece around that racism being

(00:53:21.359):
charged

(00:53:23.222):
Like, we have to learn how to sort of release the charge from it for ourselves as white folks.

(00:53:29.970):
And that it's not the worst thing that's going to happen to you.

(00:53:33.854):
If you can get to the place of understanding,

(00:53:35.036):
the worst thing in that moment would have been to...

(00:53:39.324):
yeah apologize to leave that person harmed and me running which would have been my

(00:53:44.449):
reaction 10-15 years ago probably I would have run from it because it was too

(00:53:48.213):
uncomfortable and just I think about that like this what's the worst thing for me

(00:53:53.138):
to have to sit with maybe I caused some harm and I was and there was some racism

(00:53:56.641):
that came out not because I am racist but because I exist inside of racism and it's

(00:54:01.346):
in me or I

(00:54:02.787):
Her having to sit with that and forever having a different feeling about you.

(00:54:06.729):
Forever.

(00:54:08.490):
What your thoughts are under that and I know we need to wrap up.

(00:54:11.331):
What I love actually is how you noticed this, right?

(00:54:17.114):
That was not always me.

(00:54:19.175):
All of us have these moments where we'll get on our soapbox and we're like da-da-da-da-da.

(00:54:23.196):
But you said something very

(00:54:25.462):
I'm

(00:54:54.518):
and so in all while this is happening the baby is like and so what I have said to

(00:55:00.643):
my my older toddler is like stop what do you notice about what your sister is doing

(00:55:06.828):
is she smiling no she's crying right is she is she moving your hands away right so

(00:55:13.754):
all of these things are teaching her to pay attention to the subtle signals

(00:55:18.158):
that in this case they're not subtle because the baby is literally screaming right

(00:55:21.440):
but like the subtle signals that you were getting that might not be verbal but that

(00:55:25.062):
very much are clues that you need to stop and because of lots of reasons I am not

(00:55:34.767):
going to probably say to you or maybe that you know black woman in that case wasn't

(00:55:38.129):
gonna say to you like hey Becky like this like anti-diet culture diatribe you're

(00:55:41.511):
going on like that's racist but

(00:55:44.112):
you can see it in her body and if you pay attention there's actually research that

(00:55:47.533):
looks at how one of the reasons that racism persists is the de and infra

(00:55:52.675):
humanization of people from underrepresented backgrounds what that literally means

(00:55:56.277):
is like I don't see you as as much of a person I don't think that you have the same

(00:56:03.399):
emotions and emotional responses that I do if you are from a marginalized group

(00:56:08.821):
right and so what that means is that it makes it easier for me to dismiss the

(00:56:11.882):
things that you are doing feeling saying

(00:56:14.855):
And if you reject that,

(00:56:16.576):
then you start to notice like,

(00:56:17.776):
oh,

(00:56:17.916):
I saw the flash of pain that went across your eyes,

(00:56:19.937):
even if it was just for a moment.

(00:56:21.698):
And what I always recommend to people is to respond more to those cues than to

(00:56:29.901):
anything else that's coming out of a person's mouth.

(00:56:32.922):
Right.

(00:56:33.242):
And even if they keep going,

(00:56:37.224):
there is so much power in you being like,

(00:56:38.985):
hey,

(00:56:40.545):
I noticed that like you had a reaction when I said this thing.

(00:56:44.952):
I want to back up because I think I need to try again.

(00:56:49.034):
I'm really sorry.

(00:56:50.876):
And what I had found,

(00:56:52.156):
and it sounds like in this moment you did too,

(00:56:54.138):
is that people are so amazed that you even noticed those reactions.

(00:57:00.061):
I say, yeah, I did.

(00:57:01.122):
And it opens up a conversation.

(00:57:03.003):
It opens up trust.

(00:57:04.003):
It opens up an opportunity for the relationship to deepen because you've shown I am

(00:57:08.846):
really paying attention to you.

(00:57:10.787):
I am locked in.

(00:57:12.351):
And you can trust that I care about those fleeting moments that are going across your eyes.

(00:57:18.557):
And that even if you don't verbalize it,

(00:57:20.439):
I am going to pay attention to you so much that I'm going to notice and I am going

(00:57:23.883):
to take accountability and action for whatever happens next.

(00:57:26.986):
And that's really, really powerful.

(00:57:28.447):
So I appreciate you sharing both of those anecdotes.

(00:57:32.491):
Thank you.

(00:57:32.872):
And most... Just...

(00:57:34.523):
I just think it's really important for white folks to also acknowledge like when

(00:57:39.948):
these things get because it seems for me to be like oh well I've learned it all

(00:57:43.832):
right again the whole goals are thing and I know there are there's a good chance

(00:57:48.436):
I've caused harm in this conversation right like that reality of these things and

(00:57:52.960):
so I think it's important to to watch that into model that it's okay like it's okay

(00:57:58.305):
to say

(00:57:59.606):
Yeah, I screwed up, right?

(00:58:02.088):
Can I share with you my own thing that's, like, haunting me?

(00:58:05.792):
And I, like, didn't do anything about it in the moment, but it did inform my behavior later.

(00:58:10.376):
So I just came off of a week of events in eastern Iowa.

(00:58:14.580):
My mom is from Cedar Rapids, and so she organized this, like, amazing book tour for me.

(00:58:19.724):
I had events in Iowa City and Cedar Rapids all over, and they were great.

(00:58:24.767):
On Tuesday,

(00:58:26.110):
I had an event in Iowa City,

(00:58:28.214):
and it was mostly white people in the room,

(00:58:30.478):
but there were people from a variety of races.

(00:58:33.264):
I was like, okay, Iowa City, we're coming down here.

(00:58:37.052):
and I was talking with my conversation partner for that event about identity and

(00:58:41.516):
about how white is a racial identity and there was and you know I said I was like

(00:58:46.260):
spoiler alert like white people like you are white you can say that and so I said

(00:58:50.523):
to the room I was like are you white and most people said yes and then there are

(00:58:56.048):
people like no and I was like right because not everybody in here is white and in

(00:59:01.352):
my head I was like Evelyn you a black woman

(00:59:05.208):
just centered all of the white people and like did not create space for the like

(00:59:11.633):
non-white people who were here and like my book is for everybody and I just it made

(00:59:15.696):
me feel so like disappointed in myself and then like at the end of my talk but

(00:59:19.580):
before the signing two of the black people who were there like got up and left

(00:59:22.882):
probably because the formal event was over and like they had something right so

(00:59:25.324):
like I would but I was reading it all these things I was like oh my god like really

(00:59:28.527):
whiffed it um

(00:59:30.410):
and that haunted me so much so that when I had an event a couple of days later with

(00:59:34.373):
also a mostly white audience,

(00:59:35.514):
but not an entirely white audience,

(00:59:38.496):
I did something similar,

(00:59:39.737):
but I was like,

(00:59:40.577):
if you are white,

(00:59:41.758):
are you white?

(00:59:43.339):
And I was like, and shout out to the not white people in here because love you, right?

(00:59:47.462):
And so I am never going to know

(00:59:52.627):
how the people at the event in Iowa City on that Tuesday felt like maybe it didn't

(00:59:58.010):
even register with them that that was how it felt.

(01:00:00.531):
But like it felt so bad to me to realize.

(01:00:04.454):
And I didn't say anything about it in the moment because I was like,

(01:00:06.495):
well,

(01:00:06.635):
this is complicated and who has time to verbalize all of it,

(01:00:08.756):
right?

(01:00:10.257):
But it did change my behavior and what I said a couple of days later.

(01:00:14.079):
And I think that there's this other piece of like sometimes we do harm and

(01:00:20.524):
Becky Mollenkamp

(01:00:31.895):
They would like that's their reality and that was what I showed in that moment and

(01:00:36.859):
all I can ever do is try to do better and to use that feeling of oh we didn't like

(01:00:42.685):
that to inform how I behave differently for the future so that's what I hope for

(01:00:47.489):
everybody who is working on their racism but like we just gotta try to do better

(01:00:51.953):
the next time always

(01:00:53.593):
So thank you because it's just so important for people to hear anything right

(01:00:57.518):
because I can feel as you're talking I'm thinking of like oh I know I caused harm

(01:01:01.082):
to that person once and like and then just you start thinking about all the

(01:01:04.366):
countless people I don't even know that I've caused harm to.

(01:01:06.929):
I know.

(01:01:08.263):
And we have to learn to be able to,

(01:01:10.104):
like you said,

(01:01:10.585):
you have to be able to release that and all you can do is just try to keep getting

(01:01:14.467):
better and learn from it.

(01:01:15.268):
So thank you.

(01:01:15.828):
And if you want to learn,

(01:01:17.149):
make sure that you get your book,

(01:01:18.891):
Dr.

(01:01:19.211):
Evelyn Carter's book,

(01:01:20.332):
Was That Racist?

(01:01:21.132):
There's a link there and if you're here live,

(01:01:23.474):
I'll put it in the show notes if you're watching elsewhere.

(01:01:25.515):
Make sure you grab the book because there's just,

(01:01:27.437):
especially I think if you're white,

(01:01:28.557):
but as you said,

(01:01:29.098):
it's written for everyone.

(01:01:30.279):
But I think

(01:01:31.520):
especially if you're not black you know I think because even if you do hold a

(01:01:35.763):
marginalized identity I think just it's important to acknowledge as well that that

(01:01:39.566):
doesn't mean that you're not immune from also causing harm and frankly even if you

(01:01:42.909):
are black because you as you mentioned that older black man who said something that

(01:01:45.651):
left you with that sort of feeling so again I think it's important for all of us to

(01:01:49.074):
learn how to

(01:01:51.669):
Sort of change our programming around, first of all, just understanding if something's racist.

(01:01:56.033):
But then I think the most important part is that,

(01:01:57.574):
like,

(01:01:58.154):
then how do we do the internal work to be able to get to that place where we can be

(01:02:01.717):
with that discomfort and have those discussions in the moment and do the harm

(01:02:05.720):
repair?

(01:02:06.481):
Because going back to that story you shared at the very beginning about being in

(01:02:09.584):
that writer's group,

(01:02:10.604):
your experience,

(01:02:11.185):
you'd probably still be in that group had harm repair happened.

(01:02:13.787):
Yes, I would.

(01:02:14.768):
Yes, I would.

(01:02:15.688):
And I also will note that,

(01:02:17.070):
like,

(01:02:17.690):
to the point about experiencing racism being worse than being called racist,

(01:02:22.008):
I,

(01:02:22.388):
as a debut author,

(01:02:24.029):
am missing out on important information sharing and resources that is happening in

(01:02:29.771):
that group because of their decision to prioritize somebody else's comfort over

(01:02:34.793):
harm repair.

(01:02:36.014):
And I made the decision that my feelings of safety were more important than that,

(01:02:41.356):
but it also means I am missing out.

(01:02:42.916):
So yeah, harm repair would have gone a long way.

(01:02:48.059):
it goes so far and I think we so often think again because we're prioritizing our

(01:02:51.861):
own discomfort in the moment and we just sort of think well I've screwed it up now

(01:02:54.823):
so it's all over and it's like it doesn't have to be and once you have to be all

(01:02:58.345):
over yeah once you go through the harm repair process and you survive it you

(01:03:02.147):
realize like oh yeah that wasn't so bad after all that's like yes harm repair it

(01:03:08.330):
wasn't so bad after all like I can do I can do this again there's a sequel to your

(01:03:12.132):
book harm repair it wasn't so bad after

(01:03:14.754):
thank you so much Dr.

(01:03:15.977):
Carter I really appreciate your time again get everyone get the book Was That

(01:03:19.303):
Racist by Dr.

(01:03:20.205):
Evelyn Carter and thank you for your time thank you for having me yeah