WEBVTT
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:03.359
This podcast is brought to you by On-Track Studio.
00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:14.880
Welcome to Yarning Up, a podcast that showcases stories of First Nations excellence.
00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:23.120
To help us learn and unlearn Australia's history to work towards a better future.
00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:30.800
I'm your host, Proud Barbara Woman and founder of Blackwater Coaching and Consulting, Caroline Cow.
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:42.799
This podcast was taped on the sacred, stolen, and unfeated Aboriginal lands of the Rundry people of the cooler nation.
00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:55.600
I pay my deepest respects to them, my elders, your elders, and all owners of country at this beautiful place that we call home.
00:00:57.359 --> 00:01:03.679
Well, today is going to be a really important episode for our listeners.
00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:20.719
I am delighted to be sitting down with Thomas Mayo to talk about the question or the questions that are on everybody's lips, which is later in this year, all Australians will be asked two questions.
00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:34.480
The first is whether Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people should be enshrined in the Constitution, and then their thoughts about the voice, establishing a voice to Parliament.
00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:37.760
So I'm really excited to have you on today, Thomas.
00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:55.519
As I was just mentioning off-air, we have been reaching out to a number of representatives on the referendum working group to really just bring to our listeners some information around the process and really just to have a bit of a yarn.
00:01:55.599 --> 00:01:57.760
So thank you so much for being here.
00:01:57.920 --> 00:01:59.439
Welcome to Yarning Up.
00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:00.719
Thank you, Caroline.
00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:03.200
It's a great opportunity and I appreciate it.
00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:04.799
Yeah, thank you.
00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:13.680
Look, before we dive into today's sort of discussion, as I've sort of mentioned, around the voice, let's start with getting to know you.
00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:24.719
I'd love to know if you could tell us a little bit more about who you are, uh, who your mob is and where you grew up, and yeah, just a little bit about yourself.
00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:27.039
Yeah, so my name's Thomas Mayo.
00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:32.240
Uh my name was Mayor, uh, spelt with an R at the end not that long ago.
00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:44.639
Um, but uh I was up in the Torres Strait where uh my mob are uh for my grandma's tombstone uh unveiling ceremony, which is a uh significant moment, you know, for Torres Strait Islanders.
00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:56.159
And we were talking about how a priest had changed our name from Mayo to Mayor in my father's generation, so I've changed it back uh to what is on my grandmother's headstone and other elders.
00:02:56.319 --> 00:03:13.439
Yeah, so I'm born and have always lived in Darwin uh on Larakea Country, uh my mob, uh Kurorig, which is the islands closest to the mainland, uh Kukagal, which is in the central Torres Strait and Nerubumlay, up in the northeast near Mare or Murray Island.
00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:17.280
I was a Wharfie for 16 years from when I was 17 years old.
00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:36.479
Uh I was uh became a union delegate um on the wharves for a long time, uh which taught me a lot about unity and um you know bringing people along with you and organizing uh strength, you know, uh power basically to uh to achieve things on behalf of uh a group of people.
00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:40.080
Um taught me about leadership, all those types of things.
00:03:40.159 --> 00:04:04.159
Uh became a union official, so then was elected by the members to be uh the full-time leader of our union, and then I got involved in a process that uh led to the making of the Uru Statement, and I really passionately believe that what it calls for are very important things to progressing Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, our communities, our um a better future for our children.
00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:06.879
Wow, what an interesting journey.
00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:13.360
It sounds like you have been involved in organizing and movements for quite some time.
00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:16.560
Thank you so much for for sharing about that.
00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:41.199
I guess um for those listeners, as you've mentioned, um who have, I guess, um have not been involved in the regional dialogues or um the making of the Alluru statement, um, I wonder if you could share a little bit about what exactly has led us here to the referendum, to all Australians being asked this really, these really important questions.
00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:46.240
What's the process been and where is the origins from all of this work?
00:04:46.800 --> 00:05:02.560
Yeah, I think it's really important for us to have an understanding of the history of our struggle as indigenous people um striving for a better life, for recognition, um, to be heard, uh, you know, for fairness.
00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:17.040
And um I think uh the place and and all of these things that I'll mention now are lessons that go into the Uru statement uh and are the reason why we call for a constitutionally enshrined voice.
00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:21.600
Um firstly, it we've had a long history of statements and petitions.
00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:25.360
So the Uru statement isn't the you know, it is one of many.
00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:38.720
Uh and there is a pattern, if you look at the the the history of statements and petitions, uh, that informs us uh on why the Uru statement is written to the Australian people.
00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:48.800
Uh and just to mention several, there is the uh in the 1930s, William Cooper and the leaders of the time uh made a petition to the king.
00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:56.319
Uh in 1963, there were the Yakala Bach petitions, the Yolnu mob for Northeast Arnhem land there.
00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:07.120
Um uh they made a petition to the federal parliament trying to protect country uh because the federal parliament was moving to uh basically give a whole lot of their land to a mine.
00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:12.879
There was also the 1972 Larakir petition to the Queen.
00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:27.040
Uh and all of those statements and petitions, and again that's not an extensive list, um, but it just demonstrates this pattern that's common, uh, is that they were all dismissed and ignored by the King or the Parliament or the Queen.
00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:35.199
So the lesson into the Uru statement there is that uh we know that our statements and petitions tend to be ignored um the first time.
00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:45.519
Uh and so let's not write it to a king or a queen or a parliament, let's write it to the Australian people and let them um say what uh you know what should happen with our proposals.
00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:52.800
The other lesson is that we all of those statements and petitions, they all called for a voice.
00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:58.560
So they all called for political representation in some form, or in other words, a voice.
00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:05.759
Um a simple uh you know uh understandable uh and common sense way of doing things.
00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:31.759
You know, we're hundreds of thousands of people as indigenous people in this country, like any group, it makes sense to organize some structure, you know, the ability to choose your representatives, to hold them to account, um, to have regular processes where uh people can come together, have proper debate and discussion in in an informed way, and then go out and um with some strength of unity, right?
00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:37.920
So our um we have always called for political representation, a structure, a voice.
00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:46.800
Uh and um we have not waited throughout the history of our struggle for governments to establish those.
00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:55.439
In the 1920s, it was the uh they say the first all Aboriginal political organization or voice was the Australian Aboriginal Progressive Association.
00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:59.839
Uh Fred Maynard, a Warramine man, was the leader of that, he was a Wharfie.
00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:07.439
Um and uh that voice only lasted around four or five years before it was silenced.
00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:13.360
Uh the um powers, uh, you know, the authorities had complete power over our lives.
00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:22.000
They could steal our children, exile us from country, separate us from our families, direct us to work without pay, decide who we could marry.
00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:28.879
So they used those powers to intimidate the leaders of that voice until it you know disappeared from the public eye.
00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:33.519
And there was also the Aboriginal Advancement League, um, for Catsy.
00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:45.679
So, you know, we have taken that up and set up representation uh to challenge the authorities and the decision makers, but the same fate has been there for all of them.
00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:47.120
They were all silenced.
00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:49.360
Okay, they were all destroyed.
00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:53.440
Then in more recent times, since 1967.
00:08:54.080 --> 00:09:09.600
So 1967, the referendum that saw us counted as Australian citizens, and also saw a shift of control for of for Indigenous affairs away from the states, which were really cruel to our mob, and those, you know, I mentioned some of the things that they could do.
00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:25.679
Um, 1967, our elders fought to see the race power change so that we weren't excluded from that power, so that the power over our lives wasn't with the states, who were really cruel and negligent, so that it went to the federal parliament.
00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:28.639
It was seen as an incremental step forward by our elders.
00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.679
And so since 1967, federal parliaments have established voices as well.
00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:48.320
So the NAC or the NACC was the next one, um, and the Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander Commission that Mob you know most probably remember, ATSIC, and all of those voices that we have established were silenced as well.
00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:58.639
So what happened was they would be established under one government, that government would lose power, you know, another party would win government, and they would destroy that voice that was established.
00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:01.679
They might set up their own eventually, you know, another one.
00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:12.080
Uh, but you know, so this pattern of voices established and voices silenced, you know, um, since uh since uh federation in 1901.
00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:15.039
And this is a pattern that we can't ignore.
00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:17.360
Uh we have to learn from that.
00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:28.159
Um and we also know that every time we have a voice, when we have that strength of genuine unity, not just in word, but in structure, um, we make better progress.
00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:34.159
Doesn't mean that our representative bodies are perfect because no representative body is, no process is.
00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:38.720
Um but we make greater progress when we have that sort of organization.
00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:41.120
Um and we go backwards when we don't.
00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:48.480
So ATIC was destroyed, uh, just like all the others, established under Bob Hawk and his government.
00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:52.799
John Howard comes along, who had opposed it when he was in opposition.
00:10:53.039 --> 00:11:18.639
When he won power, he went about destroying ATSIC by amplifying its problems, not celebrating its successes, and there was some good work, there were some really good things that ATSIC was achieving, um, but amplified its problems, uh, used tactics of divide and conquer, so um cut its budget so that mob that were trying to lift their communities out of poverty, you know, had to fight for what was left, sort of thing, amongst each other.
00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:21.600
Um, these were all tactics to destroy it.
00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:30.480
So in 2005, ATSIC was destroyed, it was silenced, and um then we saw the Northern Territory intervention in 2007.
00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:40.799
Tony Abbott comes along, cuts hundreds of millions of dollars from frontline community services for our kids with FASD and different, you know, things that uh we have to overcome.
00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:42.799
So these lessons are these.
00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:50.320
The Uru statement, when we came together, we said we'll write the statement to the Australian people, not to a politician or a king or a queen.
00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:52.879
The Australian people will be invited.
00:11:53.519 --> 00:12:04.240
Secondly, that we need a voice, okay, because we're things are getting worse in the absence of it, but we need to learn to put it out of the reach of politicians.
00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:08.000
Because they always always a government will come along that's hostile.
00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:17.759
If we set up a voice just in legislation, so if the parliament just does it without a referendum and without putting it in the constitution, we know a government will come along and take it away.
00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:20.720
It's just the pattern can't be ignored.
00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:30.000
And so the only way you do that is by enshrining the voice in the constitution, because the Australian people make those big laws in the constitution, not the parliament alone.
00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:46.720
So when the Australian people say the voice should be enshrined in the Constitution, that recognizes us, it gives us recognition, but it gives us recognition in a practical way, which um sets up the guarantee that we will always have uh a representative body to have a say.
00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:51.120
And so that's uh that is how we come to this opportunity.
00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:52.639
We've worked hard for it.
00:12:52.720 --> 00:13:05.919
Um, it's not Albo's idea, it's not um a Canberra voice, this is the voice from the mob taking the lessons from all of the work our elders have done and uh and um and taking a step forward that can't be taken away from us.
00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:08.639
Yeah, wow.
00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:10.320
It's so interesting.
00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:11.039
Thank you.
00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:33.679
Thank you so much for providing that that background and that context, and particularly the the grassroots origins of this movement and how so many um people and elders and prolific leaders have called for recognition in some way or form, you know, right back to the formidable leaders like William Cooper.
00:13:34.240 --> 00:14:01.600
I think in this really intense vacuum of time where we are quite literally trying to survive post-a pandemic, post-Black Lives Matter, in the midst of a social and economic crisis, it's quite understandable why that context might be lost and why it's important that we do revisit that and the works of others who have come before us.
00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:17.919
In saying that, it's it's also very understandable why many First Nations people and communities have lost faith in working in a genuine and meaningful partnership with government.
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:42.080
I mean, there have been countless Royal Commissions with hundreds of recommendations provided to governments, you know, with the Aboriginal Death and Custody report, the Bringing Them Home report, year after year of failed closing the gap reports, which have largely fallen on deaf ears.
00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:53.840
And so it's understandable why so many people are so reluctant or have this level of discernment when it comes to working with the colony.
00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:17.679
But I think what is remarkably different about this process is the constitution and that this process will be safeguarded in some way, and it won't fall at the whims of a you know, quote-unquote, good government, because this cannot be reversed.
00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:29.120
And I do really want to unpack the notion of the constitution and what it means, because that is a very divisive point that uh is exists within communities.
00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:39.200
But just sticking with the all the root statement for the heart for the moment and the process that it took to to write that statement.
00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:57.279
Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but as I understand, the referendum council spoke with approximately 1,200 First Nations delegates out of a total population of 600 First Nations people nationally.
00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:03.279
Um they did this through a series of regional dialogues back in 2016.
00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:23.600
I also, I believe that that 300 um First Nations leaders and elders and organizations and key figures of our community, let's say, were invited to develop the statement for the heart.
00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:34.639
And the statement calls for things such as a voice, such as truth telling, such as treaty making through macarata.
00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:48.879
Um and I guess you know, these aren't just sort of nice words or slogans, they are agreement-making principles, ways of working together by resolving this unfinished business.
00:16:49.200 --> 00:17:03.759
I have to ask, brothers, you know, how do you justify this as a valid sample number, uh sample size of First Nations people that were actively engaged in the process?
00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:20.559
Could more have been done to bring more people in on these conversations to have a a greater and more richer and more representative um statement and agreement-making processes?
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:22.000
No, I don't.
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:24.240
I think this was a unique opportunity.
00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:35.119
Um, of course, you know, you could have had more, but we actually there was a um real hard work was done to get what we had for that opportunity.
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:41.759
And it was activism, it was, you know, diplomacy, it was all those things.
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:43.039
Hard work.
00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:45.359
Um, and where it came about is this.
00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:49.119
I think it's important to go back to this point in time, 2015.
00:17:50.319 --> 00:18:22.880
2015, uh, you know, we had seen from when ATSIC was destroyed, the intervention, the you know, funding cuts, the Indigenous advancement strategy, you know, really uh seeing money meant for Indigenous benefit uh redirected to you know non-Indigenous organizations and that had that actually used some of those funds to fight against land rights, um, like the money that was given to you know uh the amateur fishermen's association, for example.
00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:39.599
Um now uh so we had between 2007 and 2015 years of this regression, years of going backwards and the statistics, you know, the closing the gap reports, things were getting worse.
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:46.640
So in this crisis, 39 average from Tyrus Strait Islander leaders called for a meeting from the Prime Minister and the opposition leader.
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:49.680
It was uh Abbott and Shorten at the time.
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:53.680
And this meeting happened, uh, and the curibilly statement was made.
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:58.079
And the curibilly statement said two things that are important to this.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:10.319
Firstly, it said that when it comes to constitutional recognition, you know, most of our mob want constitutional recognition, but we don't want a form of recognition that is merely symbolic.
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:20.160
Okay, we want something that will give us greater fairness, and those were the words that we used: a substantive form of recognition that provides our people greater fairness.
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:27.039
And secondly, they said we understand that these meetings can happen and then nothing might follow, you know.
00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:42.960
Uh, and so they said we propose a referendum council is established to take the question of what form of substantive recognition our people could accept to our communities and to the broader Australian public.
00:19:43.119 --> 00:20:09.680
So that's what set us on course for the dialogues that then uh that were three days each that then uh elected delegates to go to Uluru for a culminating convention, uh, where the job of the delegates was to bring the priorities that were set in the dialogues together and do three more days of hard work to try and reach a consensus, um, which we did, which is the Uluru Statement from the Heart.
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:21.039
Of course, you know, get 300 people of any uh background or persuasion, uh, you're not gonna get agreement from everybody about something, right?
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:24.799
Um, and so that shouldn't be an expectation of of our mob either.
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:33.440
But 250 of 270 it was, 250 of 270 endorsed it with standing acclamation, uh, tears of joy and hope.
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:36.240
You know, we'd considered all those lessons from the past.
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:39.279
Uh, and so that's that's how that came about.
00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:47.119
So just to reiterate here, a lot of hard work went into getting the resources to run that process.
00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:54.640
The referendum council uh and uh was 50% indigenous leaders, 50% non-indigenous.
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:57.680
Uh Professor Megan Davis designed the dialogue.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:00.880
She's a uh cobble cobble woman, an expert in public law.
00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:06.400
She knows her stuff, you know, she does this globally, this sort of work for First Nations people.
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:09.359
Um Arnie Pat Anderson was the co-chair.
00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:20.640
Uh, and so you know, when I say I I the question on if we could have done it better, I think is uh a waste of energy and time.
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:38.400
Uh, because I think if we had 10 times as many resources and we had 10 times as many mob involved, because you've got to remember we needed the resources went towards getting mob off country, um, you know, ensuring that they weren't out of pocket, um, accommodating people, uh, all that sort of stuff.
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.039
This takes a lot of money to bring people together.
00:21:41.599 --> 00:22:01.039
And especially, you know, when you've got mob in remote communities, uh, you know, and the work that went into informing people before the dialogues, uh the need for interpreters in some places, um, for experts there to be answered to answer um, you know, questions during the the Dialogues.
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:03.039
Um, it takes massive resources.
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:09.599
But even if there was 10 times as much resources, 10 times as much mob involved, I reckon we would have come up with the same answer.
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:10.319
Right.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.079
The same proposal.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:14.880
We need a voice, we need to organize better.
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:25.039
We're not making enough headway just by having disjointed rallies and knocking on ministers' doors and having, you know, private meetings, or, you know, we've got to do better.
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:29.200
We need a voice and we need to learn those lessons and enshrine it in the Constitution.
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:32.799
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to hear you say that.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:37.440
I mean, I was working in the treaty work here in Victoria.
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:46.640
We were the I was heading up the engagement approach when we established the first People's Assembly through the first term in 2017.
00:22:47.039 --> 00:23:06.000
We we spoke to people, um, our Maori counterparts, people in the Sami parliament, um, all across the world around, you know, what is the best treaty process, experts and gurus, and um, I guess there is no such thing as a perfect process.
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:18.000
I think um what we decided through that was that democracy of the First Nations people to decide was really the only way that we could move through that agreement-making process.
00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:31.680
And so I certainly hear you about, you know, one is like getting on with the business and the unfinished business because we are in a state of, you know, we are, you know, our people are dying at alarming rates.
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:36.480
We are so unwell, we are so incarcerated, and we all know the ills, the social ills.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:38.480
And so we do have to get on with it.
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:44.720
But I wonder how we always weighed it back to, you know, the power of, you know, representative engagement.
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:46.559
Um, and it is hard yakker.
00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:47.599
I do know that.
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:52.640
I want to just yarn quickly about what we're talking about before about this notion of the constitution.
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.279
So, you know, I'll just lament the point.
00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:03.039
So, all Australians, we don't know when the referendum date is going to take place, but I understand it could be October to December.
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:06.720
I don't know if you've got any any updates that you can share.
00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:12.799
No, not nothing certain, but I I still believe it'll be the 14th of October, that's Saturday.
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:13.200
Yeah.
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:17.839
Um, and so this is a really urgent discussion and urgent love to be informed.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:25.839
And uh, for those that are listening, I hope that you take the information on um to your families and your friends and community.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:26.319
Yeah.
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:28.720
Yeah, this is really important now, isn't it?
00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:47.599
To really, I mean, I know so many people in our community, in the Black Waddle community, in our families and circles, have been having a lot of conversations about this, but now is really the time to sort of lean into the discomfort or lean into the opportunity and really, yeah, grab this opportunity as you as you choose to.
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:53.759
I want to talk a little bit about the notion of the constitution because I think that is also a sticking point in community.
00:24:53.839 --> 00:25:07.680
And I think um, having worked myself in governments, I understand, I have a baseline understanding, I guess, about how legislation and and bills are passed and and the role of the constitution.
00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:17.039
But the everyday person doesn't, unless we're all constitutional lawyers or native title lawyers, or um, you know, not everyone understands that.
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:19.599
And I just want to ask you a little bit about this, brother.
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:58.640
So there is a viewpoint within community that we, by signing on to the constitution, will one, forego our sovereignty, which is inherently we own it to in our souls, um, to the fact that we, I guess, don't want to assimilate into a document that has been built on genocide, war, massacres, and that I guess this notion that by signing on to the constitution that whiteness is by no means the benchmark of success, and that really people, what I'm hearing is really wanting that self-governance, self-determination.
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:04.960
What is the opportunity when it comes to public policy and legislation?
00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:14.640
Um, what is the opportunity with being written in the constitution and why will this make this particular petition and statement different?
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:22.480
So, firstly, with absolute certainty, our sovereignty cannot be ceded by voting yes to this referendum.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:22.880
Yeah.
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:28.480
This referendum is simply asking Australia to recognize our existence.
00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:28.799
Yeah.
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:38.480
That we have been here for 60,000 years, that we'll be here forevermore, um, and that that is something that should be recognized by this country.
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:40.000
That is a great step forward.
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:46.559
Secondly, it does it by saying uh by it it's recognition through a voice.
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:51.519
So it is self-determination over what we say ourselves.
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:58.799
The only way that you cede sovereignty, uh, and the experts say this, both indigenous and non-Indigenous, is through a treaty.
00:26:58.880 --> 00:26:59.039
Yeah.
00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:08.079
Um, it's for our mob to decide the status of our sovereignty, not um a collective of mob across this entire country.
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:17.839
Only um, you know, Banjalang or Batchala or Larakia, you know, only they can decide um their their sovereign status, okay?
00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:19.440
Not um through this.
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:25.200
This has nothing to do uh with sovereignty, but it has a lot to it is all about recognition.
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:26.160
We are here.
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:29.119
Um, and that is uh an important step forward.
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:34.720
Yeah, I think that is a really, really important point to kind of underscore.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:49.440
Um, I'm certainly not a constitutional expert, but I do recall through our um treaty engagement that there were some First Nations community who benefited greatly from the treaty making processes.
00:27:49.599 --> 00:28:01.680
They were able to self-govern, they had their own um their own reserves or communities, um, they had their own doctors, their own lawyers, some even had their own police.
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:08.079
You know, whether that's the way that we would want to go, I would really call to question.
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:20.559
Um, but you know, some were able to really self-govern and some sort of through inadequate and unfair agreement-making principles kind of did away their rights.
00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:31.039
Um, and so I think that is a really important point to raise that none of these things, whether it's a treaty or a voice, is the the ultimate silver bullet.
00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:42.720
Um, but all of these things kind of working collaboratively together can create more equal say over our rights, which of course is inherently a good thing.
00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:44.960
I want mob to think about this.
00:28:45.519 --> 00:29:04.480
Across the entirety of this country, across all of our mobs, um there are local issues that only mob can speak for, and uh and certainly um only mob can agree to enter into a treaty, you know, each each nation, you know, or collective of nations working together like in Victoria.
00:29:05.359 --> 00:29:12.480
Um but um there are common issues that we can be stronger together to resolve.
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:17.200
And I've traveled extensively, you know, in this campaign for six years now.
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:42.880
I've been to so many of our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities, and in common is matters of housing, of the justice system and the way it treats us, infrastructure in many communities, just clean running water, um, good roads, those types of things, education, health, you know, dialysis especially, you know, a lot of mob have diabetes and remote communities struggle, you know, you have to go into town.
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:44.720
These are common issues.
00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:58.400
That when we have a voice that can uh so when we have representation, uh just like in Victoria, a process of democracy of choosing representatives to be on the national layer of the voice, coming together saying, These are the problems that we share.
00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:00.799
Okay, that problem is only for your mob over there.
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:04.640
We're not gonna you know, that's not an issue for this collective.
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:18.160
But when we can come together and and debate and discuss what the policy should be for health or education or justice, you know, across the country, then we're stronger together, and that's what the voice is.
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:20.640
And so, you know, we've really got to back ourselves.
00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:32.480
One of the sad things, Caroline, is that you know, governments and and this country have convinced us that we're incapable of working together, you know, and having uh a representative body.
00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:35.680
They say that all of our voices before, like ATSIC, were a failure.
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:40.880
The failure was on government wanting to listen to us and wanting to be accountable, not us.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:54.400
Um, and we're so much more educated today, you know, we've got so great so many great young leaders like yourself, you know, that um, you know, this platform that we build in this generation um will be great to build for them.
00:30:54.799 --> 00:31:04.000
Uh and running out of time, Caroline, you know, um I hope that mob uh that uh still unsure will make up their mind on the basis of this information that I've shared.
00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:07.599
White fellows need to see us um advocating for this.
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:09.440
We're not gonna win it without allies.
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:09.839
Yeah.
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:11.759
We're only 4% of the population.
00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:13.119
So get out there and fight for it.
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:13.839
That's right.
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:28.559
And you're right in saying that, that there is this notion that um we can't get it right, or that we haven't somehow got some already sophisticated ways to have disagreements and agreement make as blackfellowers.
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:29.920
We do it all the time.
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:30.640
Exactly.
00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:32.880
And Uuru was a demonstration of that.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:42.319
People said, Oh, you know, you get 300 blackfellas, you know, about that from across the country together to talk about the constitution, they won't be able to, you know, come to an agreement.
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:43.839
It'll end up a screaming mess.
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:50.960
And sure, you know, 20 people uh around 20 walked out on the second day, but the rest of us stayed and did the hard work.
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:57.119
But you know, it's normal to have some people disagree and walk out and you know, try and leverage their position that way.
00:31:57.359 --> 00:31:58.799
Yeah, oh absolutely.
00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:00.079
And we're not immune to it.
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:04.000
And we're really deeply passionate people who really want to see change.
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:11.519
And so we we we're coming at this with our lived experiences, with you know, all different parts of information.
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:20.000
Um, and so yeah, of course, it creates this sort of environment where there's just a lot of emotions and a lot at stake.
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:23.599
Um, and everyone's intentions, I believe, are well.
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:28.000
I want to just ask you a couple of just a couple of quick more questions, if I may.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:43.839
You mentioned you've been out in communities for the last six years, which I imagine would be quite a huge feat, and hearing from mobs around, yeah, some of those priorities, around, as you say, some housing, justice, infrastructure, dialysis is a big one.
00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:52.079
Um, I wonder, like in in in the more recent months, you know, what what are the sentiments that are being shared by communities about the process?
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:59.519
What are you hearing around um yeah, people getting out and sort of taking this opportunity, as you say?
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:01.920
Yeah, yeah, really those same things.
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:12.799
I I was um in the Pilbury Your River Bush meeting recently, you know, on the butcher's paper, um, the mob, you know, from across the Pilbury were putting up what was, you know, what were the priorities.
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:24.799
And it was education, health, employment, um, housing, and infrastructure, you know, um just roads so they can take their kids to school without busting a tire every three months, you know, this sort of thing.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:29.440
Um, access to um, you know, reliable power and internet.
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:36.079
Um, those are the things that mobs uh are saying around the country that they they would like this voice to concentrate on.
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:42.559
Um you know, and so they were talking about a local voice, you know, like Victoria has set up an assembly.
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:47.039
Um, the Pilbara advisory voice is what they were setting up.
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:57.359
And and those are the things that are important to us because you know they're the things that will deliver uh you know health to our coming generations and a better life.
00:33:57.680 --> 00:33:58.319
Yeah.
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:00.960
Yeah, it's really interesting to hear you say that.
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:16.159
I think um I I guess in thinking about um the the shared priorities, I think so many of our mobs would um have yeah, shared understanding of what needs to be done within their families and and communities and um kinship structures.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:19.360
But I'm gonna go back to this question about representation.
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.400
I'm sorry to lament the point, but it's something that has come up.
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:34.320
And I and I I I I wonder whether that that notion of representation almost stops us from aspiring or dreaming big or grasping this opportunity.
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:54.960
The on the 23rd of March, I think it was this year, the Prime Minister announced um a series of design principles for the voice to Parliament that um was agreed by First Nations Referendum Working Group, which I believe you're on, with you know the likes of Arnie Marciar and um Uncle Tony McAvoy and um Minister Linda Burney.
00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:57.440
And there's kind of eight key principles.
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:04.079
So the first is that the voice will give independent advice to the parliament and government.
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:10.239
It will be chosen by Aboriginal and Toro Strait Islander people based on the wishes of local communities.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:17.920
It will be representative of Aboriginal and Toro Strait Islander communities, it'll include youth, it'll be gender balanced, which is great.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:24.320
Um, it will be empowering, community-led, inclusive, respectful, and culturally informed.
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:27.519
It will be accountable and transparent.
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:39.920
It will work alongside existing organizations and traditional structures, um, you know, such as traditional owner groups, your tosses, your wraps, all of those things, uh, native title claims.
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:46.639
It will provide program delivery function, um, and it will not have any veto power.
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:49.519
So it won't be it will not um provide program.
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:51.519
Oh, it will not, you're right.
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:52.400
My apologies.
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:53.280
It will not.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:59.519
I think that's a really important point because somewhere along the line we can't conflate this with some service delivery model.
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:04.079
Yeah, so ATSIC had service delivery uh uh function.
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:10.800
Um, but today we have many great Aboriginal controlled um you know organizations that deliver services.
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:16.800
Uh so uh the voice would work with them, you know, for their policy needs over, you know, overall.
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:28.239
Uh I just want to make this point that housing affects health, you know, which affects education, you know, which affects employment, you know, all of these things are are linked up.
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:50.800
So one of the great uh things to consider here, if you know, one of the reasons we need this voice is it could work across, you know, so you've got great work happening in health, you know, and and sort of siloed, but an overall sort of uh overview of policy and how to get the best results, the voice would be really important to that.
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:51.679
You know what I mean?
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:53.360
I hope that's yeah clear.
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:54.320
Yeah.
00:36:54.480 --> 00:37:17.679
Well, we look at this at our work at Blackwattle as, you know, what we call the social determinants of health, which is access to employment and housing and all of those things that make a good and healthy life, is often, yeah, having our basic needs met with housing, not overcrowded housing, but things like education and employment, which yeah, we know can lead to better, better health outcomes.
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:22.079
You know, should the you know, hopefully we do get a yes.
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:32.000
Um, you know, I'll be honest, you know, I've like everyone, um, have waxed and waned and listened to my elders, I've listened to um the people I trust.
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:36.480
I'm in a unique position, I think, and I'm in a very privileged position as a black fella.
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:42.719
One, because yeah, I have a job, I have a house, so I recognise my privilege in the colony.
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:44.480
Two, we've got land back.
00:37:44.559 --> 00:38:01.679
So we've got, you know, our own land, it's you know, freehold native title, so we can't do anything with it, but it's a keeping place for us where we can go back and return to home and our knowledge and family and in fact family live out there and where's home for you?
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:02.719
Um, where where is it?
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:03.440
Where is it?
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:08.400
So Watsonville, about 30 minutes outside of Atherdon, uh far north Queensland.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:10.239
So we're Barbara and people.
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:13.840
Um yeah, we're Roses, Wallace, Walkers.
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:14.639
Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:16.320
Yeah, you would probably know my mob.
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:20.000
And Rodney was uh, yeah, old Roddy Walker coached me back in the day.
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:21.920
Oh, true, there you go.
00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:41.679
Yeah, and so for me, I've kind of reconciled with within myself that you know this is about an equal playing field for all of us, and that I have privileges that not a lot of other parts of my family, especially up North Queensland, they don't they don't get, you know, and um other other cousins across Australia really also call Australia.
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:47.119
Um, and so I think you know, I I do want this to be a a yes vote.
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:55.039
If and when we get the yes, um what what's the first job of the process with those design principles?
00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:57.599
Yeah, what what do they work through first?
00:38:57.679 --> 00:38:59.599
Um hearing all of these yarns.
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:13.039
Yeah, so what'll happen is the day after we win the referendum, uh, pretty much, the government will begin a process of going to mob in communities across the country uh to design the model.
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:19.360
Okay, so how many representatives, what the you know, regions uh where the borders are, all that sort of stuff.
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:25.440
The reason why that stuff isn't um known now is because that's not what we're voting on.
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:28.719
But the focus has got to be on what are we voting on here?
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:33.599
It's basically yes or no to recognition through giving us a say.
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:57.280
Okay, so if we start saying it's gonna it should be, you know, it's gonna be 24 representatives, um, you know, which is a possible model um that uh the Langton Kalmer report uh recommended, or not recommended, but just put forward, um, then we would start fighting over if it should be 25 or 26, you know, uh, you know, which is reasonable uh things to uh work out, yeah.
00:39:57.679 --> 00:39:59.280
But that's not what we're voting on.
00:39:59.440 --> 00:39:59.840
All right.
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:03.199
So we don't want to have that um debate and discussion now.
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:04.800
We've just got to get this across the line.
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:13.840
So it's like if I can try and describe it like business item number one is should we have a voice, you know, and should we be recognized?
00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:19.039
Um if that doesn't get up, then we're not talking about the rest, you know, it's done and dusted, the meeting's over.
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:24.719
And actually, it would be a no to us having that sort of uh structure, you know.
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:30.719
Uh the government goes to our communities, um, we then co-design what the voice model will be.
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:38.480
Uh, the government then takes it to the parliament, the parliament then um has their debate and discussion and then sets it in legislation.
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:49.360
Now, the reason why those things like uh how many and all the rest are only in legislation and not in the constitution is because the constitution doesn't have a lot of detail, it just sets up the principle.
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:53.119
So, again, the principle should be recognized and should we be heard?
00:40:53.519 --> 00:41:04.719
Um and how many reps and all that that needs to be flexible because our own advocacy then you know should always be about strengthening the way we are represented.
00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:10.320
And no model is perfect the first time, so you know, well, it's not gonna be done and dusted.
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:20.880
We're gonna be continually advocating for uh the right um amount of reps and and all those things to improve it um and to ensure that it has the power to improve our lives.
00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:22.239
Um I hope that helps.
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:32.800
That's a really yeah, I think that's really great actually sequencing of this because I think people we always jump to the solutions because we've always been consulted on all of that.
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:42.960
But there is a process, and you know, once we get a yes, then we will be able to undertake a process of what does our representative structure look like?
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:51.840
How will it engage with our you know, our native title, our traditional owners, our elders, our leaders, um, our young people?
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:56.960
We will have another bite of the cherry, I guess, to have it that this yarn.
00:41:57.280 --> 00:41:57.599
That's it.
00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:00.719
The question is, you know, I mean, I don't know why we would say no.
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:07.280
The principle of you know being recognized and being listened to, uh, the answer is yes, you know.
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:13.199
Uh and then we continue our our advocacy, our activism to improve that.
00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:15.039
Um, that will never stop.
00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:17.440
It's just an important step along the road.
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:23.360
And if we only if it was only Indigenous people answering that question, then it would be vulnerable.
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:33.760
So that's why we're asking the Australian people um to vote with us on this, protect it from future parliaments that might be hostile.
00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:42.239
Yeah, because it's interesting, like we we unlike other um civil rights movements across the world, like we don't have populace.
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:44.400
We are such a small percentage.
00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:49.440
So we can't control a vote like a political vote, we can't swing a parliament.
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:55.119
So we actually, in theory, do need the numbers of non-Aboriginal people, as you say, right?
00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:07.920
Um, through this mechanism, this framework, this tool by leveraging the constitution, which can't be rewritten again unless we have this process again, which I hope we never have to go through again.
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:10.079
I'm sure you're feeling the same way.
00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:16.480
You know, we I mean, of course, uh, you know, that we had to have the courage to do this.
00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:19.519
We need a voice and we need to protect it.
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:21.039
And I just want to make this point.
00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:27.519
This what some some might wonder uh why uh might feel like we're rushing this, okay?
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:39.519
But the reason why we are trying to make this happen in this term of the federal parliament is is that we don't know how who will be elected next election.
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:42.880
And so this is a really rare moment in time.
00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:43.360
Yeah.
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:48.480
Really rare moment in time where we have a government committed um to doing this.
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:49.039
Yeah.
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:51.280
Who knows if Alba will be in next time?
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:54.159
You know, we've got to take the make the most of it and believe in ourselves.
00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:54.880
Absolutely.
00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:59.679
And that is something like when we were undertaking the treaty process, a couple of things that come.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:06.079
We had a very favorable Labour government at the time.
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:10.559
I mean, and they will, they were willing and able to have those conversations.
00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:12.480
And it did put pressure on us.
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:19.280
I think we then saw that the Labour government were re-elected and we thought, oh, maybe we could have had more time.
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:30.000
And it's this, it's this very tight balance about this mindset of having to get it done fast or getting it done right versus what is possible within these political windows.
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:47.599
And yeah, I guess if we don't get this vote, one of the big things for me that I've been feeling really nervous about is just the rise of nationalism and, you know, the rise of the croonies and the nationalist, you know, saying, well, you know, where is our place in here?
00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:57.519
And that's what's kind of really swayed me here is thinking about, yeah, we're of pretty, um, there are parts of this country which are very, very racist.
00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:00.559
Um, and I worry, I worry about that.
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:08.719
The other thing, too, is when I was working in the treaty process at the time, you know, I'll be honest, there were times where I thought, oh, have we got it right?
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:15.519
Like, hand on heart, you know, we had lots of people who were not supportive of the process.
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:20.159
And they were letting us know at every every turn.
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:33.760
And despite, you know, the the groups and the yarns and the evidence and you know, all of you say that hard work that goes on in trying to conceptualize all of the things and trying to engage with mobs.
00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:37.920
There were moments where I thought to myself, gosh, have we got this right?
00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:40.800
And no one knew what the answers were as well.
00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:44.320
So the question was around just electing a representative.
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:45.840
They've done their first term.
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:50.159
Now they're only just starting to build the treaty making frameworks and processes now.
00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:55.119
So we kind of had to let go of the idea of this perfect process, give something a go.
00:45:55.360 --> 00:45:58.079
And now we're seeing the fruits of that labor.
00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:00.880
But I wanted to sarcks with that in mind.
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:10.639
As I said, like I've had moments when I was working in the treaty where I would be awake at night and on the phones to people just thinking, you know, it's so much at stake.
00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:13.119
Have you had any of those moments in your time?
00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:20.639
Have you had any moments where you thought, well, look, maybe I could have done something a little bit better here, or you know, any personal reflections on that?
00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:22.239
Because I I sure did.
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:24.960
I'm not a uh what do you call it?
00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:40.320
I've I was always a quiet fella, you know, I never expected to be doing this sort of leadership work and uh in the public eye, but uh yeah, so I I'm not a sort of normally a confident person in myself.
00:46:40.719 --> 00:47:02.960
Um, but what I am confident in in this is just knowing that we had that process, uh witnessing the debate and discussion and being part of it, um uh understanding in in my own heart what the history is and and those lessons are that our elders had worked so hard to give us.
00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:07.840
Um and and that you know that that is what has kept me going.
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:12.960
But also there's this, and and maybe it drove you as well, Caroline.
00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:22.000
Um but for me also is understanding that what we are doing right now uh is not enough.
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:25.679
We are not making enough progress.
00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:26.159
Yeah.
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:39.760
Um and with the gap still widening even this year, um, I think four out of the what is it, sixteen uh closing the gap sort of targets getting worse, um, we must try something different.
00:47:40.159 --> 00:47:44.000
And uh we have to have the courage to to make a decision.
00:47:44.639 --> 00:48:09.440
And it's okay to, you know, um I think uh and you know, great credit to you guys, you know, for making that decision because as you said, um uh it is improving things, it is taking you closer to a point where you know the goal that you guys set for yourselves and um and if you just uh procrastinated uh and uh and waited for the perfect, uh you'd be waiting forever.
00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:10.159
That's right.
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:11.679
Yeah.
00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:19.840
So what would you say to anyone who's getting ready to gear up, you know, October the 14th to cast their their votes in this referendum?
00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:20.880
What advice?
00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:24.880
Um what what would you say to them in this moment in time?
00:48:25.599 --> 00:48:27.679
This is my advice, okay.
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:35.199
We are almost uh, if not already, maybe only 60 days away from the actual referendum.
00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:36.639
Sixty days.
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:40.000
So this is a very short amount of time.
00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:43.440
Uh the polls have shown a decline in sport in support.
00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:50.719
That's because of the misinformation out there uh and the lies and the fear-mongering that is going on.
00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:58.239
But certainly a majority of Australians um agree that there must there must be this change.
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:00.159
I think there is goodwill.
00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:02.719
What they need to see is leadership from us.
00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:12.639
So I say to mob that are listening, um, you know, I hope that uh you've decided to um vote yes uh from this conversation and others you might have heard.
00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:19.039
But do more than vote yes, get out there, um, be loud and proud with your support.
00:49:19.199 --> 00:49:25.039
People need to see you supporting this, um, and and bring others along with us.
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:28.320
This is a once-in-generations opportunity.
00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:33.360
Uh, you know, we've got to do the hard work, just like our ancestors did to see us counted.
00:49:33.679 --> 00:49:37.119
Um, it's our turn to see that our children will be heard.
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:38.960
Thank you.
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:42.960
Well, Thomas Mayer, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:51.280
Um, it is yeah, a privilege to chat and and learn more about the process, connect with you, and I just really appreciate your time today.
00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:52.320
So thank you.
00:49:52.639 --> 00:49:53.519
Thank you, Caroline.
00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:54.400
It's been great.
00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:56.800
Thank you so much for listening, you mob.
00:49:56.960 --> 00:50:08.639
If you are vibing this season of Yarning Up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast from to show us some love, rate, and review.
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:18.800
Alternatively, you can get in contact and give us some feedback by visiting www.carolinecowl.com.au
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:03.359
This podcast is brought to you by On-Track Studio.
00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:14.880
Welcome to Yarning Up, a podcast that showcases stories of First Nations excellence.
00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:23.120
To help us learn and unlearn Australia's history to work towards a better future.
00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:30.800
I'm your host, Proud Barbara Woman and founder of Blackwater Coaching and Consulting, Caroline Cow.
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:42.799
This podcast was taped on the sacred, stolen, and unfeated Aboriginal lands of the Rundry people of the cooler nation.
00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:55.600
I pay my deepest respects to them, my elders, your elders, and all owners of country at this beautiful place that we call home.
00:00:57.359 --> 00:01:03.679
Well, today is going to be a really important episode for our listeners.
00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:20.719
I am delighted to be sitting down with Thomas Mayo to talk about the question or the questions that are on everybody's lips, which is later in this year, all Australians will be asked two questions.
00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:34.480
The first is whether Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people should be enshrined in the Constitution, and then their thoughts about the voice, establishing a voice to Parliament.
00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:37.760
So I'm really excited to have you on today, Thomas.
00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:55.519
As I was just mentioning off-air, we have been reaching out to a number of representatives on the referendum working group to really just bring to our listeners some information around the process and really just to have a bit of a yarn.
00:01:55.599 --> 00:01:57.760
So thank you so much for being here.
00:01:57.920 --> 00:01:59.439
Welcome to Yarning Up.
00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:00.719
Thank you, Caroline.
00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:03.200
It's a great opportunity and I appreciate it.
00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:04.799
Yeah, thank you.
00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:13.680
Look, before we dive into today's sort of discussion, as I've sort of mentioned, around the voice, let's start with getting to know you.
00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:24.719
I'd love to know if you could tell us a little bit more about who you are, uh, who your mob is and where you grew up, and yeah, just a little bit about yourself.
00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:27.039
Yeah, so my name's Thomas Mayo.
00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:32.240
Uh my name was Mayor, uh, spelt with an R at the end not that long ago.
00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:44.639
Um, but uh I was up in the Torres Strait where uh my mob are uh for my grandma's tombstone uh unveiling ceremony, which is a uh significant moment, you know, for Torres Strait Islanders.
00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:56.159
And we were talking about how a priest had changed our name from Mayo to Mayor in my father's generation, so I've changed it back uh to what is on my grandmother's headstone and other elders.
00:02:56.319 --> 00:03:13.439
Yeah, so I'm born and have always lived in Darwin uh on Larakea Country, uh my mob, uh Kurorig, which is the islands closest to the mainland, uh Kukagal, which is in the central Torres Strait and Nerubumlay, up in the northeast near Mare or Murray Island.
00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:17.280
I was a Wharfie for 16 years from when I was 17 years old.
00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:36.479
Uh I was uh became a union delegate um on the wharves for a long time, uh which taught me a lot about unity and um you know bringing people along with you and organizing uh strength, you know, uh power basically to uh to achieve things on behalf of uh a group of people.
00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:40.080
Um taught me about leadership, all those types of things.
00:03:40.159 --> 00:04:04.159
Uh became a union official, so then was elected by the members to be uh the full-time leader of our union, and then I got involved in a process that uh led to the making of the Uru Statement, and I really passionately believe that what it calls for are very important things to progressing Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, our communities, our um a better future for our children.
00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:06.879
Wow, what an interesting journey.
00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:13.360
It sounds like you have been involved in organizing and movements for quite some time.
00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:16.560
Thank you so much for for sharing about that.
00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:41.199
I guess um for those listeners, as you've mentioned, um who have, I guess, um have not been involved in the regional dialogues or um the making of the Alluru statement, um, I wonder if you could share a little bit about what exactly has led us here to the referendum, to all Australians being asked this really, these really important questions.
00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:46.240
What's the process been and where is the origins from all of this work?
00:04:46.800 --> 00:05:02.560
Yeah, I think it's really important for us to have an understanding of the history of our struggle as indigenous people um striving for a better life, for recognition, um, to be heard, uh, you know, for fairness.
00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:17.040
And um I think uh the place and and all of these things that I'll mention now are lessons that go into the Uru statement uh and are the reason why we call for a constitutionally enshrined voice.
00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:21.600
Um firstly, it we've had a long history of statements and petitions.
00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:25.360
So the Uru statement isn't the you know, it is one of many.
00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:38.720
Uh and there is a pattern, if you look at the the the history of statements and petitions, uh, that informs us uh on why the Uru statement is written to the Australian people.
00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:48.800
Uh and just to mention several, there is the uh in the 1930s, William Cooper and the leaders of the time uh made a petition to the king.
00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:56.319
Uh in 1963, there were the Yakala Bach petitions, the Yolnu mob for Northeast Arnhem land there.
00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:07.120
Um uh they made a petition to the federal parliament trying to protect country uh because the federal parliament was moving to uh basically give a whole lot of their land to a mine.
00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:12.879
There was also the 1972 Larakir petition to the Queen.
00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:27.040
Uh and all of those statements and petitions, and again that's not an extensive list, um, but it just demonstrates this pattern that's common, uh, is that they were all dismissed and ignored by the King or the Parliament or the Queen.
00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:35.199
So the lesson into the Uru statement there is that uh we know that our statements and petitions tend to be ignored um the first time.
00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:45.519
Uh and so let's not write it to a king or a queen or a parliament, let's write it to the Australian people and let them um say what uh you know what should happen with our proposals.
00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:52.800
The other lesson is that we all of those statements and petitions, they all called for a voice.
00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:58.560
So they all called for political representation in some form, or in other words, a voice.
00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:05.759
Um a simple uh you know uh understandable uh and common sense way of doing things.
00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:31.759
You know, we're hundreds of thousands of people as indigenous people in this country, like any group, it makes sense to organize some structure, you know, the ability to choose your representatives, to hold them to account, um, to have regular processes where uh people can come together, have proper debate and discussion in in an informed way, and then go out and um with some strength of unity, right?
00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:37.920
So our um we have always called for political representation, a structure, a voice.
00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:46.800
Uh and um we have not waited throughout the history of our struggle for governments to establish those.
00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:55.439
In the 1920s, it was the uh they say the first all Aboriginal political organization or voice was the Australian Aboriginal Progressive Association.
00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:59.839
Uh Fred Maynard, a Warramine man, was the leader of that, he was a Wharfie.
00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:07.439
Um and uh that voice only lasted around four or five years before it was silenced.
00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:13.360
Uh the um powers, uh, you know, the authorities had complete power over our lives.
00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:22.000
They could steal our children, exile us from country, separate us from our families, direct us to work without pay, decide who we could marry.
00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:28.879
So they used those powers to intimidate the leaders of that voice until it you know disappeared from the public eye.
00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:33.519
And there was also the Aboriginal Advancement League, um, for Catsy.
00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:45.679
So, you know, we have taken that up and set up representation uh to challenge the authorities and the decision makers, but the same fate has been there for all of them.
00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:47.120
They were all silenced.
00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:49.360
Okay, they were all destroyed.
00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:53.440
Then in more recent times, since 1967.
00:08:54.080 --> 00:09:09.600
So 1967, the referendum that saw us counted as Australian citizens, and also saw a shift of control for of for Indigenous affairs away from the states, which were really cruel to our mob, and those, you know, I mentioned some of the things that they could do.
00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:25.679
Um, 1967, our elders fought to see the race power change so that we weren't excluded from that power, so that the power over our lives wasn't with the states, who were really cruel and negligent, so that it went to the federal parliament.
00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:28.639
It was seen as an incremental step forward by our elders.
00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.679
And so since 1967, federal parliaments have established voices as well.
00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:48.320
So the NAC or the NACC was the next one, um, and the Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander Commission that Mob you know most probably remember, ATSIC, and all of those voices that we have established were silenced as well.
00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:58.639
So what happened was they would be established under one government, that government would lose power, you know, another party would win government, and they would destroy that voice that was established.
00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:01.679
They might set up their own eventually, you know, another one.
00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:12.080
Uh, but you know, so this pattern of voices established and voices silenced, you know, um, since uh since uh federation in 1901.
00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:15.039
And this is a pattern that we can't ignore.
00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:17.360
Uh we have to learn from that.
00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:28.159
Um and we also know that every time we have a voice, when we have that strength of genuine unity, not just in word, but in structure, um, we make better progress.
00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:34.159
Doesn't mean that our representative bodies are perfect because no representative body is, no process is.
00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:38.720
Um but we make greater progress when we have that sort of organization.
00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:41.120
Um and we go backwards when we don't.
00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:48.480
So ATIC was destroyed, uh, just like all the others, established under Bob Hawk and his government.
00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:52.799
John Howard comes along, who had opposed it when he was in opposition.
00:10:53.039 --> 00:11:18.639
When he won power, he went about destroying ATSIC by amplifying its problems, not celebrating its successes, and there was some good work, there were some really good things that ATSIC was achieving, um, but amplified its problems, uh, used tactics of divide and conquer, so um cut its budget so that mob that were trying to lift their communities out of poverty, you know, had to fight for what was left, sort of thing, amongst each other.
00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:21.600
Um, these were all tactics to destroy it.
00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:30.480
So in 2005, ATSIC was destroyed, it was silenced, and um then we saw the Northern Territory intervention in 2007.
00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:40.799
Tony Abbott comes along, cuts hundreds of millions of dollars from frontline community services for our kids with FASD and different, you know, things that uh we have to overcome.
00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:42.799
So these lessons are these.
00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:50.320
The Uru statement, when we came together, we said we'll write the statement to the Australian people, not to a politician or a king or a queen.
00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:52.879
The Australian people will be invited.
00:11:53.519 --> 00:12:04.240
Secondly, that we need a voice, okay, because we're things are getting worse in the absence of it, but we need to learn to put it out of the reach of politicians.
00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:08.000
Because they always always a government will come along that's hostile.
00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:17.759
If we set up a voice just in legislation, so if the parliament just does it without a referendum and without putting it in the constitution, we know a government will come along and take it away.
00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:20.720
It's just the pattern can't be ignored.
00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:30.000
And so the only way you do that is by enshrining the voice in the constitution, because the Australian people make those big laws in the constitution, not the parliament alone.
00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:46.720
So when the Australian people say the voice should be enshrined in the Constitution, that recognizes us, it gives us recognition, but it gives us recognition in a practical way, which um sets up the guarantee that we will always have uh a representative body to have a say.
00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:51.120
And so that's uh that is how we come to this opportunity.
00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:52.639
We've worked hard for it.
00:12:52.720 --> 00:13:05.919
Um, it's not Albo's idea, it's not um a Canberra voice, this is the voice from the mob taking the lessons from all of the work our elders have done and uh and um and taking a step forward that can't be taken away from us.
00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:08.639
Yeah, wow.
00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:10.320
It's so interesting.
00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:11.039
Thank you.
00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:33.679
Thank you so much for providing that that background and that context, and particularly the the grassroots origins of this movement and how so many um people and elders and prolific leaders have called for recognition in some way or form, you know, right back to the formidable leaders like William Cooper.
00:13:34.240 --> 00:14:01.600
I think in this really intense vacuum of time where we are quite literally trying to survive post-a pandemic, post-Black Lives Matter, in the midst of a social and economic crisis, it's quite understandable why that context might be lost and why it's important that we do revisit that and the works of others who have come before us.
00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:17.919
In saying that, it's it's also very understandable why many First Nations people and communities have lost faith in working in a genuine and meaningful partnership with government.
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:42.080
I mean, there have been countless Royal Commissions with hundreds of recommendations provided to governments, you know, with the Aboriginal Death and Custody report, the Bringing Them Home report, year after year of failed closing the gap reports, which have largely fallen on deaf ears.
00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:53.840
And so it's understandable why so many people are so reluctant or have this level of discernment when it comes to working with the colony.
00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:17.679
But I think what is remarkably different about this process is the constitution and that this process will be safeguarded in some way, and it won't fall at the whims of a you know, quote-unquote, good government, because this cannot be reversed.
00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:29.120
And I do really want to unpack the notion of the constitution and what it means, because that is a very divisive point that uh is exists within communities.
00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:39.200
But just sticking with the all the root statement for the heart for the moment and the process that it took to to write that statement.
00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:57.279
Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but as I understand, the referendum council spoke with approximately 1,200 First Nations delegates out of a total population of 600 First Nations people nationally.
00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:03.279
Um they did this through a series of regional dialogues back in 2016.
00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:23.600
I also, I believe that that 300 um First Nations leaders and elders and organizations and key figures of our community, let's say, were invited to develop the statement for the heart.
00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:34.639
And the statement calls for things such as a voice, such as truth telling, such as treaty making through macarata.
00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:48.879
Um and I guess you know, these aren't just sort of nice words or slogans, they are agreement-making principles, ways of working together by resolving this unfinished business.
00:16:49.200 --> 00:17:03.759
I have to ask, brothers, you know, how do you justify this as a valid sample number, uh sample size of First Nations people that were actively engaged in the process?
00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:20.559
Could more have been done to bring more people in on these conversations to have a a greater and more richer and more representative um statement and agreement-making processes?
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:22.000
No, I don't.
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:24.240
I think this was a unique opportunity.
00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:35.119
Um, of course, you know, you could have had more, but we actually there was a um real hard work was done to get what we had for that opportunity.
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:41.759
And it was activism, it was, you know, diplomacy, it was all those things.
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:43.039
Hard work.
00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:45.359
Um, and where it came about is this.
00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:49.119
I think it's important to go back to this point in time, 2015.
00:17:50.319 --> 00:18:22.880
2015, uh, you know, we had seen from when ATSIC was destroyed, the intervention, the you know, funding cuts, the Indigenous advancement strategy, you know, really uh seeing money meant for Indigenous benefit uh redirected to you know non-Indigenous organizations and that had that actually used some of those funds to fight against land rights, um, like the money that was given to you know uh the amateur fishermen's association, for example.
00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:39.599
Um now uh so we had between 2007 and 2015 years of this regression, years of going backwards and the statistics, you know, the closing the gap reports, things were getting worse.
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:46.640
So in this crisis, 39 average from Tyrus Strait Islander leaders called for a meeting from the Prime Minister and the opposition leader.
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:49.680
It was uh Abbott and Shorten at the time.
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:53.680
And this meeting happened, uh, and the curibilly statement was made.
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:58.079
And the curibilly statement said two things that are important to this.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:10.319
Firstly, it said that when it comes to constitutional recognition, you know, most of our mob want constitutional recognition, but we don't want a form of recognition that is merely symbolic.
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:20.160
Okay, we want something that will give us greater fairness, and those were the words that we used: a substantive form of recognition that provides our people greater fairness.
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:27.039
And secondly, they said we understand that these meetings can happen and then nothing might follow, you know.
00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:42.960
Uh, and so they said we propose a referendum council is established to take the question of what form of substantive recognition our people could accept to our communities and to the broader Australian public.
00:19:43.119 --> 00:20:09.680
So that's what set us on course for the dialogues that then uh that were three days each that then uh elected delegates to go to Uluru for a culminating convention, uh, where the job of the delegates was to bring the priorities that were set in the dialogues together and do three more days of hard work to try and reach a consensus, um, which we did, which is the Uluru Statement from the Heart.
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:21.039
Of course, you know, get 300 people of any uh background or persuasion, uh, you're not gonna get agreement from everybody about something, right?
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:24.799
Um, and so that shouldn't be an expectation of of our mob either.
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:33.440
But 250 of 270 it was, 250 of 270 endorsed it with standing acclamation, uh, tears of joy and hope.
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:36.240
You know, we'd considered all those lessons from the past.
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:39.279
Uh, and so that's that's how that came about.
00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:47.119
So just to reiterate here, a lot of hard work went into getting the resources to run that process.
00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:54.640
The referendum council uh and uh was 50% indigenous leaders, 50% non-indigenous.
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:57.680
Uh Professor Megan Davis designed the dialogue.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:00.880
She's a uh cobble cobble woman, an expert in public law.
00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:06.400
She knows her stuff, you know, she does this globally, this sort of work for First Nations people.
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:09.359
Um Arnie Pat Anderson was the co-chair.
00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:20.640
Uh, and so you know, when I say I I the question on if we could have done it better, I think is uh a waste of energy and time.
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:38.400
Uh, because I think if we had 10 times as many resources and we had 10 times as many mob involved, because you've got to remember we needed the resources went towards getting mob off country, um, you know, ensuring that they weren't out of pocket, um, accommodating people, uh, all that sort of stuff.
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.039
This takes a lot of money to bring people together.
00:21:41.599 --> 00:22:01.039
And especially, you know, when you've got mob in remote communities, uh, you know, and the work that went into informing people before the dialogues, uh the need for interpreters in some places, um, for experts there to be answered to answer um, you know, questions during the the Dialogues.
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:03.039
Um, it takes massive resources.
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:09.599
But even if there was 10 times as much resources, 10 times as much mob involved, I reckon we would have come up with the same answer.
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:10.319
Right.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.079
The same proposal.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:14.880
We need a voice, we need to organize better.
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:25.039
We're not making enough headway just by having disjointed rallies and knocking on ministers' doors and having, you know, private meetings, or, you know, we've got to do better.
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:29.200
We need a voice and we need to learn those lessons and enshrine it in the Constitution.
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:32.799
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to hear you say that.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:37.440
I mean, I was working in the treaty work here in Victoria.
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:46.640
We were the I was heading up the engagement approach when we established the first People's Assembly through the first term in 2017.
00:22:47.039 --> 00:23:06.000
We we spoke to people, um, our Maori counterparts, people in the Sami parliament, um, all across the world around, you know, what is the best treaty process, experts and gurus, and um, I guess there is no such thing as a perfect process.
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:18.000
I think um what we decided through that was that democracy of the First Nations people to decide was really the only way that we could move through that agreement-making process.
00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:31.680
And so I certainly hear you about, you know, one is like getting on with the business and the unfinished business because we are in a state of, you know, we are, you know, our people are dying at alarming rates.
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:36.480
We are so unwell, we are so incarcerated, and we all know the ills, the social ills.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:38.480
And so we do have to get on with it.
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:44.720
But I wonder how we always weighed it back to, you know, the power of, you know, representative engagement.
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:46.559
Um, and it is hard yakker.
00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:47.599
I do know that.
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:52.640
I want to just yarn quickly about what we're talking about before about this notion of the constitution.
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.279
So, you know, I'll just lament the point.
00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:03.039
So, all Australians, we don't know when the referendum date is going to take place, but I understand it could be October to December.
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:06.720
I don't know if you've got any any updates that you can share.
00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:12.799
No, not nothing certain, but I I still believe it'll be the 14th of October, that's Saturday.
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:13.200
Yeah.
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:17.839
Um, and so this is a really urgent discussion and urgent love to be informed.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:25.839
And uh, for those that are listening, I hope that you take the information on um to your families and your friends and community.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:26.319
Yeah.
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:28.720
Yeah, this is really important now, isn't it?
00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:47.599
To really, I mean, I know so many people in our community, in the Black Waddle community, in our families and circles, have been having a lot of conversations about this, but now is really the time to sort of lean into the discomfort or lean into the opportunity and really, yeah, grab this opportunity as you as you choose to.
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:53.759
I want to talk a little bit about the notion of the constitution because I think that is also a sticking point in community.
00:24:53.839 --> 00:25:07.680
And I think um, having worked myself in governments, I understand, I have a baseline understanding, I guess, about how legislation and and bills are passed and and the role of the constitution.
00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:17.039
But the everyday person doesn't, unless we're all constitutional lawyers or native title lawyers, or um, you know, not everyone understands that.
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:19.599
And I just want to ask you a little bit about this, brother.
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:58.640
So there is a viewpoint within community that we, by signing on to the constitution, will one, forego our sovereignty, which is inherently we own it to in our souls, um, to the fact that we, I guess, don't want to assimilate into a document that has been built on genocide, war, massacres, and that I guess this notion that by signing on to the constitution that whiteness is by no means the benchmark of success, and that really people, what I'm hearing is really wanting that self-governance, self-determination.
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:04.960
What is the opportunity when it comes to public policy and legislation?
00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:14.640
Um, what is the opportunity with being written in the constitution and why will this make this particular petition and statement different?
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:22.480
So, firstly, with absolute certainty, our sovereignty cannot be ceded by voting yes to this referendum.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:22.880
Yeah.
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:28.480
This referendum is simply asking Australia to recognize our existence.
00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:28.799
Yeah.
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:38.480
That we have been here for 60,000 years, that we'll be here forevermore, um, and that that is something that should be recognized by this country.
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:40.000
That is a great step forward.
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:46.559
Secondly, it does it by saying uh by it it's recognition through a voice.
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:51.519
So it is self-determination over what we say ourselves.
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:58.799
The only way that you cede sovereignty, uh, and the experts say this, both indigenous and non-Indigenous, is through a treaty.
00:26:58.880 --> 00:26:59.039
Yeah.
00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:08.079
Um, it's for our mob to decide the status of our sovereignty, not um a collective of mob across this entire country.
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:17.839
Only um, you know, Banjalang or Batchala or Larakia, you know, only they can decide um their their sovereign status, okay?
00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:19.440
Not um through this.
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:25.200
This has nothing to do uh with sovereignty, but it has a lot to it is all about recognition.
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:26.160
We are here.
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:29.119
Um, and that is uh an important step forward.
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:34.720
Yeah, I think that is a really, really important point to kind of underscore.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:49.440
Um, I'm certainly not a constitutional expert, but I do recall through our um treaty engagement that there were some First Nations community who benefited greatly from the treaty making processes.
00:27:49.599 --> 00:28:01.680
They were able to self-govern, they had their own um their own reserves or communities, um, they had their own doctors, their own lawyers, some even had their own police.
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:08.079
You know, whether that's the way that we would want to go, I would really call to question.
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:20.559
Um, but you know, some were able to really self-govern and some sort of through inadequate and unfair agreement-making principles kind of did away their rights.
00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:31.039
Um, and so I think that is a really important point to raise that none of these things, whether it's a treaty or a voice, is the the ultimate silver bullet.
00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:42.720
Um, but all of these things kind of working collaboratively together can create more equal say over our rights, which of course is inherently a good thing.
00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:44.960
I want mob to think about this.
00:28:45.519 --> 00:29:04.480
Across the entirety of this country, across all of our mobs, um there are local issues that only mob can speak for, and uh and certainly um only mob can agree to enter into a treaty, you know, each each nation, you know, or collective of nations working together like in Victoria.
00:29:05.359 --> 00:29:12.480
Um but um there are common issues that we can be stronger together to resolve.
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:17.200
And I've traveled extensively, you know, in this campaign for six years now.
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:42.880
I've been to so many of our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities, and in common is matters of housing, of the justice system and the way it treats us, infrastructure in many communities, just clean running water, um, good roads, those types of things, education, health, you know, dialysis especially, you know, a lot of mob have diabetes and remote communities struggle, you know, you have to go into town.
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:44.720
These are common issues.
00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:58.400
That when we have a voice that can uh so when we have representation, uh just like in Victoria, a process of democracy of choosing representatives to be on the national layer of the voice, coming together saying, These are the problems that we share.
00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:00.799
Okay, that problem is only for your mob over there.
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:04.640
We're not gonna you know, that's not an issue for this collective.
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:18.160
But when we can come together and and debate and discuss what the policy should be for health or education or justice, you know, across the country, then we're stronger together, and that's what the voice is.
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:20.640
And so, you know, we've really got to back ourselves.
00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:32.480
One of the sad things, Caroline, is that you know, governments and and this country have convinced us that we're incapable of working together, you know, and having uh a representative body.
00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:35.680
They say that all of our voices before, like ATSIC, were a failure.
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:40.880
The failure was on government wanting to listen to us and wanting to be accountable, not us.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:54.400
Um, and we're so much more educated today, you know, we've got so great so many great young leaders like yourself, you know, that um, you know, this platform that we build in this generation um will be great to build for them.
00:30:54.799 --> 00:31:04.000
Uh and running out of time, Caroline, you know, um I hope that mob uh that uh still unsure will make up their mind on the basis of this information that I've shared.
00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:07.599
White fellows need to see us um advocating for this.
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:09.440
We're not gonna win it without allies.
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:09.839
Yeah.
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:11.759
We're only 4% of the population.
00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:13.119
So get out there and fight for it.
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:13.839
That's right.
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:28.559
And you're right in saying that, that there is this notion that um we can't get it right, or that we haven't somehow got some already sophisticated ways to have disagreements and agreement make as blackfellowers.
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:29.920
We do it all the time.
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:30.640
Exactly.
00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:32.880
And Uuru was a demonstration of that.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:42.319
People said, Oh, you know, you get 300 blackfellas, you know, about that from across the country together to talk about the constitution, they won't be able to, you know, come to an agreement.
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:43.839
It'll end up a screaming mess.
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:50.960
And sure, you know, 20 people uh around 20 walked out on the second day, but the rest of us stayed and did the hard work.
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:57.119
But you know, it's normal to have some people disagree and walk out and you know, try and leverage their position that way.
00:31:57.359 --> 00:31:58.799
Yeah, oh absolutely.
00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:00.079
And we're not immune to it.
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:04.000
And we're really deeply passionate people who really want to see change.
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:11.519
And so we we we're coming at this with our lived experiences, with you know, all different parts of information.
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:20.000
Um, and so yeah, of course, it creates this sort of environment where there's just a lot of emotions and a lot at stake.
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:23.599
Um, and everyone's intentions, I believe, are well.
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:28.000
I want to just ask you a couple of just a couple of quick more questions, if I may.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:43.839
You mentioned you've been out in communities for the last six years, which I imagine would be quite a huge feat, and hearing from mobs around, yeah, some of those priorities, around, as you say, some housing, justice, infrastructure, dialysis is a big one.
00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:52.079
Um, I wonder, like in in in the more recent months, you know, what what are the sentiments that are being shared by communities about the process?
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:59.519
What are you hearing around um yeah, people getting out and sort of taking this opportunity, as you say?
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:01.920
Yeah, yeah, really those same things.
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:12.799
I I was um in the Pilbury Your River Bush meeting recently, you know, on the butcher's paper, um, the mob, you know, from across the Pilbury were putting up what was, you know, what were the priorities.
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:24.799
And it was education, health, employment, um, housing, and infrastructure, you know, um just roads so they can take their kids to school without busting a tire every three months, you know, this sort of thing.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:29.440
Um, access to um, you know, reliable power and internet.
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:36.079
Um, those are the things that mobs uh are saying around the country that they they would like this voice to concentrate on.
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:42.559
Um you know, and so they were talking about a local voice, you know, like Victoria has set up an assembly.
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:47.039
Um, the Pilbara advisory voice is what they were setting up.
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:57.359
And and those are the things that are important to us because you know they're the things that will deliver uh you know health to our coming generations and a better life.
00:33:57.680 --> 00:33:58.319
Yeah.
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:00.960
Yeah, it's really interesting to hear you say that.
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:16.159
I think um I I guess in thinking about um the the shared priorities, I think so many of our mobs would um have yeah, shared understanding of what needs to be done within their families and and communities and um kinship structures.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:19.360
But I'm gonna go back to this question about representation.
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.400
I'm sorry to lament the point, but it's something that has come up.
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:34.320
And I and I I I I wonder whether that that notion of representation almost stops us from aspiring or dreaming big or grasping this opportunity.
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:54.960
The on the 23rd of March, I think it was this year, the Prime Minister announced um a series of design principles for the voice to Parliament that um was agreed by First Nations Referendum Working Group, which I believe you're on, with you know the likes of Arnie Marciar and um Uncle Tony McAvoy and um Minister Linda Burney.
00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:57.440
And there's kind of eight key principles.
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:04.079
So the first is that the voice will give independent advice to the parliament and government.
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:10.239
It will be chosen by Aboriginal and Toro Strait Islander people based on the wishes of local communities.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:17.920
It will be representative of Aboriginal and Toro Strait Islander communities, it'll include youth, it'll be gender balanced, which is great.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:24.320
Um, it will be empowering, community-led, inclusive, respectful, and culturally informed.
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:27.519
It will be accountable and transparent.
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:39.920
It will work alongside existing organizations and traditional structures, um, you know, such as traditional owner groups, your tosses, your wraps, all of those things, uh, native title claims.
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:46.639
It will provide program delivery function, um, and it will not have any veto power.
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:49.519
So it won't be it will not um provide program.
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:51.519
Oh, it will not, you're right.
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:52.400
My apologies.
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:53.280
It will not.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:59.519
I think that's a really important point because somewhere along the line we can't conflate this with some service delivery model.
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:04.079
Yeah, so ATSIC had service delivery uh uh function.
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:10.800
Um, but today we have many great Aboriginal controlled um you know organizations that deliver services.
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:16.800
Uh so uh the voice would work with them, you know, for their policy needs over, you know, overall.
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:28.239
Uh I just want to make this point that housing affects health, you know, which affects education, you know, which affects employment, you know, all of these things are are linked up.
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:50.800
So one of the great uh things to consider here, if you know, one of the reasons we need this voice is it could work across, you know, so you've got great work happening in health, you know, and and sort of siloed, but an overall sort of uh overview of policy and how to get the best results, the voice would be really important to that.
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:51.679
You know what I mean?
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:53.360
I hope that's yeah clear.
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:54.320
Yeah.
00:36:54.480 --> 00:37:17.679
Well, we look at this at our work at Blackwattle as, you know, what we call the social determinants of health, which is access to employment and housing and all of those things that make a good and healthy life, is often, yeah, having our basic needs met with housing, not overcrowded housing, but things like education and employment, which yeah, we know can lead to better, better health outcomes.
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:22.079
You know, should the you know, hopefully we do get a yes.
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:32.000
Um, you know, I'll be honest, you know, I've like everyone, um, have waxed and waned and listened to my elders, I've listened to um the people I trust.
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:36.480
I'm in a unique position, I think, and I'm in a very privileged position as a black fella.
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:42.719
One, because yeah, I have a job, I have a house, so I recognise my privilege in the colony.
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:44.480
Two, we've got land back.
00:37:44.559 --> 00:38:01.679
So we've got, you know, our own land, it's you know, freehold native title, so we can't do anything with it, but it's a keeping place for us where we can go back and return to home and our knowledge and family and in fact family live out there and where's home for you?
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:02.719
Um, where where is it?
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:03.440
Where is it?
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:08.400
So Watsonville, about 30 minutes outside of Atherdon, uh far north Queensland.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:10.239
So we're Barbara and people.
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:13.840
Um yeah, we're Roses, Wallace, Walkers.
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:14.639
Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:16.320
Yeah, you would probably know my mob.
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:20.000
And Rodney was uh, yeah, old Roddy Walker coached me back in the day.
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:21.920
Oh, true, there you go.
00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:41.679
Yeah, and so for me, I've kind of reconciled with within myself that you know this is about an equal playing field for all of us, and that I have privileges that not a lot of other parts of my family, especially up North Queensland, they don't they don't get, you know, and um other other cousins across Australia really also call Australia.
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:47.119
Um, and so I think you know, I I do want this to be a a yes vote.
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:55.039
If and when we get the yes, um what what's the first job of the process with those design principles?
00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:57.599
Yeah, what what do they work through first?
00:38:57.679 --> 00:38:59.599
Um hearing all of these yarns.
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:13.039
Yeah, so what'll happen is the day after we win the referendum, uh, pretty much, the government will begin a process of going to mob in communities across the country uh to design the model.
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:19.360
Okay, so how many representatives, what the you know, regions uh where the borders are, all that sort of stuff.
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:25.440
The reason why that stuff isn't um known now is because that's not what we're voting on.
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:28.719
But the focus has got to be on what are we voting on here?
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:33.599
It's basically yes or no to recognition through giving us a say.
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:57.280
Okay, so if we start saying it's gonna it should be, you know, it's gonna be 24 representatives, um, you know, which is a possible model um that uh the Langton Kalmer report uh recommended, or not recommended, but just put forward, um, then we would start fighting over if it should be 25 or 26, you know, uh, you know, which is reasonable uh things to uh work out, yeah.
00:39:57.679 --> 00:39:59.280
But that's not what we're voting on.
00:39:59.440 --> 00:39:59.840
All right.
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:03.199
So we don't want to have that um debate and discussion now.
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:04.800
We've just got to get this across the line.
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:13.840
So it's like if I can try and describe it like business item number one is should we have a voice, you know, and should we be recognized?
00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:19.039
Um if that doesn't get up, then we're not talking about the rest, you know, it's done and dusted, the meeting's over.
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:24.719
And actually, it would be a no to us having that sort of uh structure, you know.
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:30.719
Uh the government goes to our communities, um, we then co-design what the voice model will be.
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:38.480
Uh, the government then takes it to the parliament, the parliament then um has their debate and discussion and then sets it in legislation.
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:49.360
Now, the reason why those things like uh how many and all the rest are only in legislation and not in the constitution is because the constitution doesn't have a lot of detail, it just sets up the principle.
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:53.119
So, again, the principle should be recognized and should we be heard?
00:40:53.519 --> 00:41:04.719
Um and how many reps and all that that needs to be flexible because our own advocacy then you know should always be about strengthening the way we are represented.
00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:10.320
And no model is perfect the first time, so you know, well, it's not gonna be done and dusted.
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:20.880
We're gonna be continually advocating for uh the right um amount of reps and and all those things to improve it um and to ensure that it has the power to improve our lives.
00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:22.239
Um I hope that helps.
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:32.800
That's a really yeah, I think that's really great actually sequencing of this because I think people we always jump to the solutions because we've always been consulted on all of that.
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:42.960
But there is a process, and you know, once we get a yes, then we will be able to undertake a process of what does our representative structure look like?
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:51.840
How will it engage with our you know, our native title, our traditional owners, our elders, our leaders, um, our young people?
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:56.960
We will have another bite of the cherry, I guess, to have it that this yarn.
00:41:57.280 --> 00:41:57.599
That's it.
00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:00.719
The question is, you know, I mean, I don't know why we would say no.
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:07.280
The principle of you know being recognized and being listened to, uh, the answer is yes, you know.
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:13.199
Uh and then we continue our our advocacy, our activism to improve that.
00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:15.039
Um, that will never stop.
00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:17.440
It's just an important step along the road.
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:23.360
And if we only if it was only Indigenous people answering that question, then it would be vulnerable.
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:33.760
So that's why we're asking the Australian people um to vote with us on this, protect it from future parliaments that might be hostile.
00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:42.239
Yeah, because it's interesting, like we we unlike other um civil rights movements across the world, like we don't have populace.
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:44.400
We are such a small percentage.
00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:49.440
So we can't control a vote like a political vote, we can't swing a parliament.
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:55.119
So we actually, in theory, do need the numbers of non-Aboriginal people, as you say, right?
00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:07.920
Um, through this mechanism, this framework, this tool by leveraging the constitution, which can't be rewritten again unless we have this process again, which I hope we never have to go through again.
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:10.079
I'm sure you're feeling the same way.
00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:16.480
You know, we I mean, of course, uh, you know, that we had to have the courage to do this.
00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:19.519
We need a voice and we need to protect it.
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:21.039
And I just want to make this point.
00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:27.519
This what some some might wonder uh why uh might feel like we're rushing this, okay?
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:39.519
But the reason why we are trying to make this happen in this term of the federal parliament is is that we don't know how who will be elected next election.
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:42.880
And so this is a really rare moment in time.
00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:43.360
Yeah.
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:48.480
Really rare moment in time where we have a government committed um to doing this.
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:49.039
Yeah.
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:51.280
Who knows if Alba will be in next time?
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:54.159
You know, we've got to take the make the most of it and believe in ourselves.
00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:54.880
Absolutely.
00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:59.679
And that is something like when we were undertaking the treaty process, a couple of things that come.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:06.079
We had a very favorable Labour government at the time.
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:10.559
I mean, and they will, they were willing and able to have those conversations.
00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:12.480
And it did put pressure on us.
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:19.280
I think we then saw that the Labour government were re-elected and we thought, oh, maybe we could have had more time.
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:30.000
And it's this, it's this very tight balance about this mindset of having to get it done fast or getting it done right versus what is possible within these political windows.
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:47.599
And yeah, I guess if we don't get this vote, one of the big things for me that I've been feeling really nervous about is just the rise of nationalism and, you know, the rise of the croonies and the nationalist, you know, saying, well, you know, where is our place in here?
00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:57.519
And that's what's kind of really swayed me here is thinking about, yeah, we're of pretty, um, there are parts of this country which are very, very racist.
00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:00.559
Um, and I worry, I worry about that.
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:08.719
The other thing, too, is when I was working in the treaty process at the time, you know, I'll be honest, there were times where I thought, oh, have we got it right?
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:15.519
Like, hand on heart, you know, we had lots of people who were not supportive of the process.
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:20.159
And they were letting us know at every every turn.
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:33.760
And despite, you know, the the groups and the yarns and the evidence and you know, all of you say that hard work that goes on in trying to conceptualize all of the things and trying to engage with mobs.
00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:37.920
There were moments where I thought to myself, gosh, have we got this right?
00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:40.800
And no one knew what the answers were as well.
00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:44.320
So the question was around just electing a representative.
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:45.840
They've done their first term.
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:50.159
Now they're only just starting to build the treaty making frameworks and processes now.
00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:55.119
So we kind of had to let go of the idea of this perfect process, give something a go.
00:45:55.360 --> 00:45:58.079
And now we're seeing the fruits of that labor.
00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:00.880
But I wanted to sarcks with that in mind.
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:10.639
As I said, like I've had moments when I was working in the treaty where I would be awake at night and on the phones to people just thinking, you know, it's so much at stake.
00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:13.119
Have you had any of those moments in your time?
00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:20.639
Have you had any moments where you thought, well, look, maybe I could have done something a little bit better here, or you know, any personal reflections on that?
00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:22.239
Because I I sure did.
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:24.960
I'm not a uh what do you call it?
00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:40.320
I've I was always a quiet fella, you know, I never expected to be doing this sort of leadership work and uh in the public eye, but uh yeah, so I I'm not a sort of normally a confident person in myself.
00:46:40.719 --> 00:47:02.960
Um, but what I am confident in in this is just knowing that we had that process, uh witnessing the debate and discussion and being part of it, um uh understanding in in my own heart what the history is and and those lessons are that our elders had worked so hard to give us.
00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:07.840
Um and and that you know that that is what has kept me going.
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:12.960
But also there's this, and and maybe it drove you as well, Caroline.
00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:22.000
Um but for me also is understanding that what we are doing right now uh is not enough.
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:25.679
We are not making enough progress.
00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:26.159
Yeah.
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:39.760
Um and with the gap still widening even this year, um, I think four out of the what is it, sixteen uh closing the gap sort of targets getting worse, um, we must try something different.
00:47:40.159 --> 00:47:44.000
And uh we have to have the courage to to make a decision.
00:47:44.639 --> 00:48:09.440
And it's okay to, you know, um I think uh and you know, great credit to you guys, you know, for making that decision because as you said, um uh it is improving things, it is taking you closer to a point where you know the goal that you guys set for yourselves and um and if you just uh procrastinated uh and uh and waited for the perfect, uh you'd be waiting forever.
00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:10.159
That's right.
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:11.679
Yeah.
00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:19.840
So what would you say to anyone who's getting ready to gear up, you know, October the 14th to cast their their votes in this referendum?
00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:20.880
What advice?
00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:24.880
Um what what would you say to them in this moment in time?
00:48:25.599 --> 00:48:27.679
This is my advice, okay.
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:35.199
We are almost uh, if not already, maybe only 60 days away from the actual referendum.
00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:36.639
Sixty days.
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:40.000
So this is a very short amount of time.
00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:43.440
Uh the polls have shown a decline in sport in support.
00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:50.719
That's because of the misinformation out there uh and the lies and the fear-mongering that is going on.
00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:58.239
But certainly a majority of Australians um agree that there must there must be this change.
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:00.159
I think there is goodwill.
00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:02.719
What they need to see is leadership from us.
00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:12.639
So I say to mob that are listening, um, you know, I hope that uh you've decided to um vote yes uh from this conversation and others you might have heard.
00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:19.039
But do more than vote yes, get out there, um, be loud and proud with your support.
00:49:19.199 --> 00:49:25.039
People need to see you supporting this, um, and and bring others along with us.
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:28.320
This is a once-in-generations opportunity.
00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:33.360
Uh, you know, we've got to do the hard work, just like our ancestors did to see us counted.
00:49:33.679 --> 00:49:37.119
Um, it's our turn to see that our children will be heard.
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:38.960
Thank you.
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:42.960
Well, Thomas Mayer, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:51.280
Um, it is yeah, a privilege to chat and and learn more about the process, connect with you, and I just really appreciate your time today.
00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:52.320
So thank you.
00:49:52.639 --> 00:49:53.519
Thank you, Caroline.
00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:54.400
It's been great.
00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:56.800
Thank you so much for listening, you mob.
00:49:56.960 --> 00:50:08.639
If you are vibing this season of Yarning Up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast from to show us some love, rate, and review.
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:18.800
Alternatively, you can get in contact and give us some feedback by visiting www.carolinecowl.com.au
