Ep.5 The Science Behind Career Success with Dr Grace Lordan

WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.110 --> 00:00:02.810
This is David and John from the David McWilliams podcast,
2
00:00:03.169 --> 00:00:05.730
brought to you by Monzo, Ireland's newest bank.
3
00:00:05.950 --> 00:00:08.470
Now, we've mentioned more than once about the need for
4
00:00:08.509 --> 00:00:11.189
more choice in Irish banking. Well, now we have some.
5
00:00:11.589 --> 00:00:14.669
Monzo is a bank built for Ireland with Irish I-bands
6
00:00:14.710 --> 00:00:17.109
and a team here in Dublin. And there are no
7
00:00:17.179 --> 00:00:19.739
monthly fees. Get a free Monzo account for yourself and
8
00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:22.339
your kids. And if you run a business, open a
9
00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:25.399
free business bank account too if you're an eligible sole
10
00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:28.260
trader or limited company in Ireland. You can manage all
11
00:00:28.300 --> 00:00:31.579
your Monzo accounts on one app. Monzo have also been
12
00:00:31.620 --> 00:00:34.640
kind enough and clever enough to sponsor Kilkenomics in November,
13
00:00:34.859 --> 00:00:36.219
for which we are very grateful.
14
00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:39.320
A new era of banking is here. Sign up today
15
00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:40.979
by downloading the Monzo app.
16
00:00:41.329 --> 00:00:44.229
Monzo Bank Europe DAC, trading as Monzo, is regulated by
17
00:00:44.250 --> 00:00:46.950
the Central Bank of Ireland. Terms and conditions apply. This
18
00:00:47.009 --> 00:00:49.689
is David from the David McWilliams podcast with a message
19
00:00:49.750 --> 00:00:54.520
from Vodafone Business Unified Comms with RingCentral. Running a business
20
00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:58.359
usually involves juggling endless moving parts across all your different
21
00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:03.100
apps and devices. Vodafone Unified Comms is here to help.
22
00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:06.799
All business managers know that it is so important to
23
00:01:06.859 --> 00:01:11.079
keep your whole business in sync. Vodafone Business Unified Comms
24
00:01:11.180 --> 00:01:14.439
brings together all your comms needs, like phone calls and
25
00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:19.469
video meetings, into a single platform. It connects owners, staff,
26
00:01:19.549 --> 00:01:23.269
customers and suppliers in real time so you'll never miss
27
00:01:23.450 --> 00:01:28.709
another call or message. Search Vodafone Unified Comms to find
28
00:01:28.769 --> 00:01:29.109
out more.
29
00:01:30.530 --> 00:01:31.549
ACAST recommends.
30
00:01:32.590 --> 00:01:33.489
Hi, I'm Ryan Tuberty.
31
00:01:33.590 --> 00:01:36.010
And for those who don't know, I love books and
32
00:01:36.030 --> 00:01:38.609
I love a great story. And on my podcast, The
33
00:01:38.629 --> 00:01:41.450
Bookshelf with Ryan Tuberty, I sit down with fascinating people.
34
00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:43.390
And we talk about the books that have shaped their
35
00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:46.030
lives and the stories behind them. We talk about the
36
00:01:46.049 --> 00:01:48.189
book they loved as a child, the book that brings
37
00:01:48.230 --> 00:01:51.189
them joy, and the book that changed their life. Over
38
00:01:51.230 --> 00:01:54.670
the seasons, I've chatted to world leaders, cultural icons, sports stars,
39
00:01:55.090 --> 00:01:57.780
and some of my favorite authors. Well, season five is
40
00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:00.400
now available. So if you love books, if you love stories,
41
00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:02.859
and you love great conversation, come and join me on
42
00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:05.739
the bookshelf every Tuesday. Watch on YouTube or indeed listen
43
00:02:05.980 --> 00:02:07.040
wherever you get your podcasts.
44
00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:11.509
Acast is home to the world's best podcasts, including Red Room,
45
00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:14.650
Catch up with Louise McSharry and the one you're listening
46
00:02:14.659 --> 00:02:15.780
to right now.
47
00:02:22.189 --> 00:02:25.490
Hey, everyone. I have just finished having this conversation with Dr.
48
00:02:25.509 --> 00:02:29.810
Grace Lorden. We talk about everything from building resilience, building
49
00:02:29.830 --> 00:02:33.930
your dream career, unconscious bias in the workplace to the
50
00:02:33.969 --> 00:02:37.189
pitfalls we all have in taking time off. I'm really
51
00:02:37.250 --> 00:02:39.430
excited for you to hear this conversation. It was so
52
00:02:39.530 --> 00:02:42.310
interesting to talk to someone who genuinely studies these things
53
00:02:42.389 --> 00:02:45.789
on a daily basis and who has the backing for
54
00:02:45.810 --> 00:02:47.770
a lot of the ideas that I wish I'd be
55
00:02:47.810 --> 00:02:50.870
able to scientifically prove. So it was really exciting to
56
00:02:50.909 --> 00:02:53.509
talk to her and I hope you enjoy the episode.
57
00:03:01.710 --> 00:03:05.310
My guest today is Dr. Grace Lorden, Associate Professor in
58
00:03:05.330 --> 00:03:08.189
Behavioural Science at the LSE and the author of the
59
00:03:08.250 --> 00:03:11.500
recently published Think Big, Take Small Steps and Build the
60
00:03:11.530 --> 00:03:13.919
Future You Want, which is all about how to create
61
00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:17.060
a framework that will move you towards your goals. Her
62
00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:20.080
academic writings have been published in international journals and she
63
00:03:20.139 --> 00:03:23.340
currently advises the UK government as a board member on
64
00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:26.219
the Skills and Productivity Board. We need your help, Grace.
65
00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:29.219
I first met Grace when we were guests on the
66
00:03:29.500 --> 00:03:33.699
Going for Goal podcast by Women's Health talking all things procrastination.
67
00:03:34.180 --> 00:03:36.360
I was fascinated by her take on these topics and
68
00:03:36.419 --> 00:03:39.669
I am thrilled to have her on here today. Welcome, Grace.
69
00:03:40.770 --> 00:03:43.210
Thank you, Grace, for the most fantastic welcome. I really,
70
00:03:43.270 --> 00:03:44.289
I really, really appreciate it.
71
00:03:44.490 --> 00:03:46.449
Well, I'm very excited to have a kind of Grace
72
00:03:46.490 --> 00:03:50.539
Squared collaboration on this from the science point of view
73
00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:54.610
from your side. And I know that When we spoke
74
00:03:54.669 --> 00:03:56.639
last time, we had a lot of overlap and a
75
00:03:56.680 --> 00:03:58.780
lot of kind of areas that we really wanted to
76
00:03:58.939 --> 00:04:02.240
talk about. And you are very much the brains, the science,
77
00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:04.680
the backing to all of this. So I'm really, really
78
00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:08.710
excited to be talking to you about this. So end
79
00:04:08.750 --> 00:04:10.710
of my monologue. We're going to go into some quick
80
00:04:10.750 --> 00:04:12.110
bio questions. Are you ready?
81
00:04:12.270 --> 00:04:13.430
Absolutely ready. Go for it.
82
00:04:13.990 --> 00:04:18.439
Okay. reading or podcasts reading time blocking or winging it
83
00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:21.800
winging it checking emails throughout the day or setting alarms
84
00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:23.920
to check them just a few times it's.
85
00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:25.860
The second one but I often fall into.
86
00:04:25.740 --> 00:04:28.680
The first one don't we all don't we all um
87
00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:32.040
more or less than eight hours sleep less office or
88
00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:35.639
working from home working from home zoom or teams zoom
89
00:04:35.939 --> 00:04:40.379
you have just authored the incredible think big how did
90
00:04:40.430 --> 00:04:42.910
you find the writing process in comparison to your kind
91
00:04:42.930 --> 00:04:45.449
of usual academic work So.
92
00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:47.430
I started off the writing process and I found it
93
00:04:47.449 --> 00:04:50.089
quite similar to my academic work. I took a summer
94
00:04:50.110 --> 00:04:52.810
to write it and I was really proud of my output.
95
00:04:52.829 --> 00:04:55.209
And then when I sent it into Penguin, they came
96
00:04:55.250 --> 00:04:57.069
back and said, you know, it's really wonderful, but it
97
00:04:57.110 --> 00:04:58.300
sounds like an academic book.
98
00:04:58.329 --> 00:05:01.019
You need to change that. So the second part was
99
00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:05.860
really hard and they really wanted more stories, more storytelling.
100
00:05:05.899 --> 00:05:07.980
And I think that was the right decision. You know,
101
00:05:08.060 --> 00:05:09.620
as humans, we listen to stories.
102
00:05:10.250 --> 00:05:12.500
And trying to figure out what were the stories that
103
00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:15.740
I could tell, what would land with the reader was
104
00:05:15.860 --> 00:05:18.399
tricky for me. And I did procrastinate a lot over
105
00:05:18.459 --> 00:05:21.129
what went into the book. So it was a bit torturous,
106
00:05:21.209 --> 00:05:22.949
but I will say that I enjoyed it in case
107
00:05:22.970 --> 00:05:24.110
someone from Penguin is listening.
108
00:05:26.149 --> 00:05:28.819
Well we obviously we do share the same publishing house
109
00:05:28.899 --> 00:05:31.060
but with um I kind of found you know if
110
00:05:31.100 --> 00:05:32.779
you can't make it accessible and if you can't make
111
00:05:32.819 --> 00:05:34.379
it something that people can fit into their lives when
112
00:05:34.420 --> 00:05:37.459
we're talking about people's lives then I was like oh
113
00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:40.589
this makes complete sense because you know I guess it
114
00:05:40.629 --> 00:05:42.889
should be that accessible and it should be something that
115
00:05:42.930 --> 00:05:44.709
we can all take from it you know if we
116
00:05:44.769 --> 00:05:47.769
all work if we all have careers um so it's
117
00:05:47.829 --> 00:05:49.370
great to hear that you found the same.
118
00:05:49.230 --> 00:05:51.620
Thing and it's it's the problem with academia Grace to
119
00:05:51.649 --> 00:05:53.620
be honest is that we you know we write things
120
00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:57.250
that are highly implementable but we don't often write them
121
00:05:57.290 --> 00:05:59.790
down in ways where people can actually are interested you
122
00:05:59.810 --> 00:06:02.290
know so we yeah and I and I think that
123
00:06:02.370 --> 00:06:04.149
skill in itself was a new skill that I was
124
00:06:04.189 --> 00:06:05.990
learning and it's always hard when you're learning a new
125
00:06:06.029 --> 00:06:08.970
skill hence the torture but now I'm glad I did it.
126
00:06:09.850 --> 00:06:11.569
And do you think you'll take kind of part of
127
00:06:11.629 --> 00:06:15.540
that um I guess that storytelling slash that anecdotal bringing
128
00:06:15.569 --> 00:06:17.139
things down to earth do you think you'll bring that
129
00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:19.339
into the academic work at all or do you think
130
00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:21.180
that it kind of still needs to very much be
131
00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:24.439
cemented in this kind of say things as cleverly as
132
00:06:24.500 --> 00:06:24.819
they are.
133
00:06:25.060 --> 00:06:27.180
No, I do. And I think it's really important.
134
00:06:27.220 --> 00:06:29.660
So since I've written Think Big, I've written an article,
135
00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:32.610
you know, for the Financial Times. And when I write,
136
00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:35.589
I write these one-page summaries that people can understand. And
137
00:06:35.610 --> 00:06:37.269
I think what I learned from writing the book goes
138
00:06:37.310 --> 00:06:40.910
into that. So moving away from boring to being a
139
00:06:40.930 --> 00:06:42.189
bit more attention-grabbing.
140
00:06:43.290 --> 00:06:45.529
I don't think it's boring, but I do think that
141
00:06:45.689 --> 00:06:48.170
within kind of my time at university, my first like
142
00:06:48.250 --> 00:06:51.730
real baptism of fire is... was turning like, was opening
143
00:06:51.790 --> 00:06:54.069
these like journals to be reading about things and being like,
144
00:06:54.709 --> 00:06:57.459
I do not understand a single thing. And then I
145
00:06:57.500 --> 00:06:59.060
was just always thinking, I was thinking like, how can
146
00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:00.800
I make this, you know, how can I make this
147
00:07:00.819 --> 00:07:04.120
something that I then translate into my own understanding and
148
00:07:04.139 --> 00:07:08.160
then back into complicated for my essays. So within Think Big,
149
00:07:08.220 --> 00:07:11.100
you use behavioral science to inform the kind of art
150
00:07:11.180 --> 00:07:15.060
of career building. I find this incredibly interesting and I've
151
00:07:15.100 --> 00:07:16.560
read bits of the book and I think it is
152
00:07:16.759 --> 00:07:19.930
absolutely fantastic. I was wondering if you could share with
153
00:07:19.970 --> 00:07:24.269
us three takeaway top tips regarding how to build kind
154
00:07:24.310 --> 00:07:27.089
of your own successful career. I'm aware it's a huge question,
155
00:07:27.449 --> 00:07:31.100
but your big headlines on building that successful career for you,
156
00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:32.189
what would they be?
157
00:07:33.060 --> 00:07:34.800
So I think the first thing is when we're choosing
158
00:07:34.839 --> 00:07:36.519
what we want to do with our lives to move
159
00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:40.199
away from kind of occupational titles and lifestyles and really
160
00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:42.199
think about what are the things that we like to do.
161
00:07:42.300 --> 00:07:44.160
So what are the activities that we like to do?
162
00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:46.720
And then figuring out how to get the skills so
163
00:07:46.740 --> 00:07:48.370
you can do more of those activities. So I think
164
00:07:48.379 --> 00:07:51.990
that's the first part. I think the second is time management,
165
00:07:52.009 --> 00:07:53.370
which is what we spent a lot of time talking
166
00:07:53.389 --> 00:07:56.930
about on the Women's Health podcast. But really, in order
167
00:07:56.970 --> 00:07:58.709
to do something that's great and in order to kind
168
00:07:58.750 --> 00:08:00.550
of move yourself forward in a big way, you do
169
00:08:00.610 --> 00:08:02.740
have to dedicate time to it. There's no way around it.
170
00:08:02.769 --> 00:08:04.990
And some of it is going to be unpleasant. So
171
00:08:05.069 --> 00:08:08.319
figuring out where that time will come from and making
172
00:08:08.379 --> 00:08:10.240
a plan that you stick to, which I think behavioural
173
00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:11.600
science can really, really help.
174
00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:13.060
And then I think.
175
00:08:13.750 --> 00:08:15.910
And the third part is resilience, Grace, to be honest,
176
00:08:15.949 --> 00:08:19.110
that you have to hone resilience. If you're going to
177
00:08:19.649 --> 00:08:23.370
step outside your comfort zone and do something that's really exciting,
178
00:08:23.410 --> 00:08:25.850
that's going to push you forward, you're also going to fail.
179
00:08:26.269 --> 00:08:28.740
You're going to have criticism. It's going to be a
180
00:08:28.769 --> 00:08:31.860
difficult path at times. And being resilient so your mental
181
00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:34.259
health and your well-being doesn't suffer is really important. So
182
00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:35.179
investing in that.
183
00:08:36.200 --> 00:08:38.980
And so I've got two questions based on that. One
184
00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:41.539
of them is a bit of a kind of, I
185
00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:45.100
guess within what I talk about a little bit in
186
00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:47.460
working hard, hardly working, but also what you talk about
187
00:08:47.500 --> 00:08:50.460
in terms of kind of resilience and also just having
188
00:08:50.500 --> 00:08:52.929
to do things you don't like sometimes. Do you think
189
00:08:52.950 --> 00:08:55.889
that there's been a slight glamorization of the idea that
190
00:08:55.929 --> 00:08:58.769
like everything's going to be great when you find a
191
00:08:58.789 --> 00:09:01.070
job you love and it's all going to be just,
192
00:09:01.830 --> 00:09:03.389
I guess, you know, you never work a day in
193
00:09:03.409 --> 00:09:05.080
your life when you love your job and all of
194
00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:06.919
these types of things. Do you think that's kind of
195
00:09:06.940 --> 00:09:10.120
been exacerbated by things like social media and only being
196
00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:13.240
able to see highlight reels of people's people's kind of careers.
197
00:09:13.580 --> 00:09:14.440
Yes, absolutely.
198
00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:17.370
So I think social media for careers is what fairy
199
00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:20.210
tales was for relationship building, you know, 20 years ago,
200
00:09:20.809 --> 00:09:23.009
we now have this idea that we'll find a job,
201
00:09:23.149 --> 00:09:25.330
we'll fall in love, it will be happily ever after.
202
00:09:25.350 --> 00:09:28.230
And the passion is going to be, you know, every
203
00:09:28.250 --> 00:09:29.429
day we're going to wake up and it's going to
204
00:09:29.460 --> 00:09:29.960
be exciting.
205
00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:31.580
And that isn't the reality.
206
00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:34.750
Um, And I think kind of moving away from that
207
00:09:34.870 --> 00:09:36.909
and really thinking about in the same way you would
208
00:09:36.929 --> 00:09:39.830
think about a relationship, what does good look like? Actually,
209
00:09:39.870 --> 00:09:42.580
it's something that brings you joy every day that you're
210
00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:44.990
not stressed to be kind of taking part in it.
211
00:09:45.019 --> 00:09:48.759
And when there is stress, you can actually see the reward. Yeah.
212
00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:52.419
And figuring that out for yourself, which is highly personal,
213
00:09:52.490 --> 00:09:52.759
I think.
214
00:09:52.970 --> 00:09:54.669
So do you think there are tools that we can
215
00:09:54.710 --> 00:09:57.549
have kind of individually to bring our idea of career
216
00:09:57.610 --> 00:10:01.570
and what like success is away from... what we see
217
00:10:01.669 --> 00:10:04.600
other people doing and within ourselves are there key things
218
00:10:04.629 --> 00:10:06.100
that you think we can kind of do on a
219
00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:09.240
daily basis or when we're consuming social media in order
220
00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:10.940
to I guess you know I have this view that
221
00:10:11.379 --> 00:10:14.639
success is unless you bring success within yourself and unless
222
00:10:14.659 --> 00:10:17.399
you're able to kind of internalize it then you're never
223
00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:19.600
going to achieve it I.
224
00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:21.759
Think that's right. So I think the first thing really
225
00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:22.980
is self-belief.
226
00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:25.519
And I think if you don't have self-belief, finding somebody
227
00:10:25.539 --> 00:10:28.200
who actually believes in you, who push you forward is
228
00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:30.220
very important. And I think, you know, if you look
229
00:10:30.259 --> 00:10:34.070
at kids who've done extraordinary things, very often underneath that
230
00:10:34.570 --> 00:10:37.129
is a parent or a teacher person who pushed them
231
00:10:37.169 --> 00:10:39.269
forward when they were kids and they didn't necessarily have
232
00:10:39.309 --> 00:10:42.350
that direction. But I think more than that, it really
233
00:10:42.389 --> 00:10:45.149
comes back to thinking, what do I enjoy doing on
234
00:10:45.190 --> 00:10:47.679
a day-to-day basis? So what are the activities that I
235
00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:50.360
could actually do more of? And figuring out what occupation
236
00:10:50.379 --> 00:10:52.620
would allow you to do that. And then taking the
237
00:10:52.659 --> 00:10:56.149
journey to get skilled So you can be credible in
238
00:10:56.190 --> 00:10:57.149
doing a job like that.
239
00:10:57.190 --> 00:10:57.450
Yeah.
240
00:10:57.490 --> 00:11:00.090
So it's kind of an element of like finding not
241
00:11:00.129 --> 00:11:02.889
necessarily these big passions, but these kind of like micro
242
00:11:02.929 --> 00:11:06.299
passions that you can implement into the everyday or you can,
243
00:11:06.539 --> 00:11:08.139
you know, you would just acknowledge these are the best
244
00:11:08.179 --> 00:11:09.759
parts of my day. The other things that are kind
245
00:11:09.779 --> 00:11:12.600
of delayed gratification that I need to do in order
246
00:11:12.659 --> 00:11:15.220
to make the other part of this kind of passion,
247
00:11:15.350 --> 00:11:16.210
I guess, come true.
248
00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:16.950
Absolutely.
249
00:11:17.049 --> 00:11:20.409
And I think if you're somebody who's motivated by money
250
00:11:20.509 --> 00:11:23.230
and that's where your values lie, Getting real with the
251
00:11:23.269 --> 00:11:25.129
fact that to actually earn money takes an awful lot
252
00:11:25.149 --> 00:11:27.289
of work. There's going to be a big uphill to that.
253
00:11:27.409 --> 00:11:29.710
If you're somebody who really wants to spend time with people,
254
00:11:30.029 --> 00:11:31.850
think about, OK, what are the occupations that will allow
255
00:11:31.889 --> 00:11:34.389
me to spend more time with people? But rather than
256
00:11:34.429 --> 00:11:37.129
looking at Instagram, I think go and meet people who
257
00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:40.559
actually do those jobs. So if you're stumbling in direction,
258
00:11:41.019 --> 00:11:43.120
ask them, what is a day to day? You know,
259
00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:44.659
if I met you and I was interested in becoming
260
00:11:44.679 --> 00:11:47.480
an entrepreneur, I would say, what do you do every
261
00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:50.179
single day? And some of it I'm going to find exciting.
262
00:11:50.220 --> 00:11:51.720
And I bet you some of it is really, really
263
00:11:51.740 --> 00:11:54.639
boring and you find tedious. And getting rid of whether
264
00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:56.779
I can do that is a very important part of life.
265
00:11:57.779 --> 00:11:59.450
Yeah, and I think there's part of that as well
266
00:11:59.490 --> 00:12:02.149
that we need to be able to do ourselves too.
267
00:12:02.230 --> 00:12:03.570
You know, we need to be able to look at
268
00:12:03.629 --> 00:12:06.320
other people. And their jobs and everything. And we need
269
00:12:06.340 --> 00:12:09.460
to kind of be able to assume that there's for
270
00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:12.220
every 10 good things, there's also 10 shit things. Otherwise,
271
00:12:12.259 --> 00:12:15.379
it's really hard to then, you know, because you can't
272
00:12:15.419 --> 00:12:17.279
always ask someone like, what are the worst parts of
273
00:12:17.299 --> 00:12:18.639
your job? You know, that's one of the things I
274
00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:20.570
really want to do through this podcast to really get
275
00:12:20.620 --> 00:12:23.269
that realistic view. But you can't always do that. You
276
00:12:23.289 --> 00:12:25.289
kind of sometimes just have you have to consume with,
277
00:12:25.330 --> 00:12:29.169
I guess, like a filter, the good type of filter
278
00:12:29.549 --> 00:12:31.639
in order to, you know, not consume all of it
279
00:12:31.820 --> 00:12:34.580
at face level, even though you can't see the other things.
280
00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:36.279
Absolutely. I agree with that.
281
00:12:38.090 --> 00:12:39.450
How do you think we can build resilience?
282
00:12:39.889 --> 00:12:41.429
So I think that there's a number of ways. And,
283
00:12:41.450 --> 00:12:43.610
you know, in Think Big, I think I give 10
284
00:12:43.610 --> 00:12:46.149
different ones. So I'll give you two now. You might
285
00:12:46.169 --> 00:12:48.190
want to give me your reaction to them. So I
286
00:12:48.210 --> 00:12:50.169
think the first is that as human beings, we know
287
00:12:50.230 --> 00:12:52.610
that we pay much more attention to the things that
288
00:12:52.649 --> 00:12:55.340
we lose as opposed to what we actually gain. So
289
00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:57.720
that basically means if I have an encounter with a
290
00:12:57.740 --> 00:13:00.100
colleague that's very pleasant or if somebody tells me I've
291
00:13:00.139 --> 00:13:03.299
done a fantastic job, I tend to ignore that. But
292
00:13:03.379 --> 00:13:05.440
if I have a really bad encounter and someone tells
293
00:13:05.460 --> 00:13:07.090
me that I did a shit job, I tend to
294
00:13:07.129 --> 00:13:09.809
really internalize that and I have a really, really bad
295
00:13:09.850 --> 00:13:11.909
day over it. So one of the simplest things that
296
00:13:11.950 --> 00:13:14.509
you can actually do in order to make yourself more
297
00:13:14.549 --> 00:13:19.580
resilient or rather not deplete your resilience reserves is really
298
00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:21.820
focus in on the things that are actually have gone
299
00:13:21.860 --> 00:13:25.039
well for yourself in your life and kind of disengage
300
00:13:25.059 --> 00:13:26.730
from the things that actually go negative. So some of
301
00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:29.429
these kind of very small negative events that hold people back,
302
00:13:30.230 --> 00:13:32.570
it's very, very easy if you put focus on them.
303
00:13:33.230 --> 00:13:34.250
To stop that happening.
304
00:13:34.629 --> 00:13:36.750
And it sounds, you know, as soon as I say it,
305
00:13:36.769 --> 00:13:38.769
people will say, okay, yeah, if my colleague is rude
306
00:13:38.809 --> 00:13:40.330
to me, it really gets me down and I don't
307
00:13:40.350 --> 00:13:43.269
pay attention to compliments. Well, start writing them, then start
308
00:13:43.289 --> 00:13:46.230
writing them down, particularly if you suffer from self-belief, do
309
00:13:46.269 --> 00:13:48.259
start writing them down. So I think that's kind of
310
00:13:48.269 --> 00:13:50.100
the first, I think that's the first part. And, you know,
311
00:13:50.500 --> 00:13:53.159
we talked in the beginning about the idea of academic evidence.
312
00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:57.679
Everything suggests that people who practice gratitude are much more resilient,
313
00:13:58.100 --> 00:14:00.659
but equally everything suggests that people who draw attention to
314
00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:04.450
the small wins are also become much more resilient.
315
00:14:05.629 --> 00:14:07.409
Yeah, I love that. I think one of the things
316
00:14:07.450 --> 00:14:11.389
that I actually realized when I was writing Working Hard
317
00:14:11.409 --> 00:14:14.299
was the fact that I have loved this idea of
318
00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:16.639
gratitudes and I love this idea, you know, I really
319
00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:19.360
got into it in kind of summer last year of
320
00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:21.179
writing these things down. And then I was like, I
321
00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:24.299
instantly had that kind of like knee jerk reaction of
322
00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:26.100
it being a waste of time just because it's one
323
00:14:26.139 --> 00:14:28.710
of those like buzzwords that we're told always to do
324
00:14:28.789 --> 00:14:31.129
online or, you know, that will benefit from this, that
325
00:14:31.149 --> 00:14:34.559
and the other. And then actually, when I looked into it,
326
00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:36.879
I found it really interesting looking at the actual hormone
327
00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:39.100
release of when you're doing that and when you're feeling
328
00:14:39.139 --> 00:14:41.480
grateful and all of that. And it's so crazy because
329
00:14:41.500 --> 00:14:43.279
then as soon as I felt that, as soon as
330
00:14:43.899 --> 00:14:46.850
that kind of happened and I was able to register
331
00:14:46.990 --> 00:14:51.350
the research behind it, I was able to really embrace
332
00:14:51.389 --> 00:14:54.629
the actual... you know, the effect of it? Do you
333
00:14:54.649 --> 00:14:57.669
do you know? I mean, this might be kind of
334
00:14:57.730 --> 00:15:00.210
different to your area. Do you know about the science
335
00:15:00.250 --> 00:15:02.149
of gratitudes and what kind of falls behind that?
336
00:15:02.620 --> 00:15:05.899
Yeah, so I mean, the what you're basically describing is
337
00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:08.919
this physiological response as well that you get this kind
338
00:15:08.940 --> 00:15:11.639
of hormone release as you do this kind of day
339
00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:14.110
by day. I will say that the research that you're
340
00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:16.559
actually referring to is very short term. So I don't
341
00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:18.519
know of any study that's followed people for a very,
342
00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:21.480
very long time. But what we do know is for
343
00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:24.210
people who keep time journals and talk about their mood
344
00:15:24.419 --> 00:15:27.779
using instruments that people will use to gauge depression, anxiety
345
00:15:27.830 --> 00:15:31.370
and other ways of well-being, if they practice gratitude every
346
00:15:31.409 --> 00:15:33.669
single evening, even if it's only for a short number
347
00:15:33.710 --> 00:15:36.929
of minutes, you do see improvements in their well-being that
348
00:15:36.970 --> 00:15:40.210
go beyond any other kind of explanation. And if you
349
00:15:40.250 --> 00:15:43.320
think about it from an individual perspective, if anybody is
350
00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:46.059
listening and they practice it, they will know very soon
351
00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:47.080
whether it's working for them.
352
00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:48.899
And I think that's really important.
353
00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:51.139
That if you take, if you for two weeks, try
354
00:15:51.179 --> 00:15:53.620
at six o'clock to think about the good things that
355
00:15:53.659 --> 00:15:55.539
actually happened in your day and draw your attention to
356
00:15:55.580 --> 00:15:58.779
them and then assess your own mood and figure out
357
00:15:58.830 --> 00:16:00.330
whether or not you ended up in a better mood
358
00:16:00.350 --> 00:16:02.950
because of it, it is actually something worth doing. If
359
00:16:03.009 --> 00:16:04.850
it's not, you just throw it away as some bad
360
00:16:04.870 --> 00:16:06.230
advice that you heard in a podcast.
361
00:16:07.169 --> 00:16:09.929
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a really important thing
362
00:16:09.970 --> 00:16:12.549
to mention as well, because you know it comes back
363
00:16:12.590 --> 00:16:15.210
to that filtering system that we all need to have
364
00:16:15.289 --> 00:16:19.389
when consuming things online especially because you're you know you're
365
00:16:19.409 --> 00:16:22.769
essentially you know it's not as serious as self-medicating but
366
00:16:22.820 --> 00:16:25.080
you are self-medicating in terms of like what you're prescribing
367
00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:28.159
yourself to do to you know whether it's gratitudes whether
368
00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:31.419
it's writing a journal whether it's all of these things
369
00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:34.120
and And one of the most important things I think
370
00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:36.360
we can all build is a sort of not just
371
00:16:36.419 --> 00:16:39.059
a filtering system for what we consume, but also this
372
00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:42.990
idea that actually the context cannot be collapsed enough online
373
00:16:43.049 --> 00:16:45.389
in order for it to always apply to you. So
374
00:16:45.450 --> 00:16:47.850
being able to actually develop something that means that you
375
00:16:48.210 --> 00:16:50.470
can try things it doesn't work and move on and
376
00:16:50.509 --> 00:16:52.809
that not being you know because different things work for
377
00:16:52.830 --> 00:16:55.330
everyone and i think when things are made trendy that
378
00:16:55.370 --> 00:16:57.389
can be a particular problem and what i really didn't
379
00:16:57.429 --> 00:17:00.029
want as well um from kind of my tips was
380
00:17:00.049 --> 00:17:01.909
for people to think like oh that doesn't work for
381
00:17:01.929 --> 00:17:05.279
me and therefore either it doesn't work completely or therefore
382
00:17:05.319 --> 00:17:08.640
like i'm a lost cause or whatever it's so subjective
383
00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:10.619
to each person what can help you be more productive
384
00:17:10.660 --> 00:17:12.460
what can help you feel more fulfilled all of these
385
00:17:12.500 --> 00:17:13.460
various different things.
386
00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:15.140
And I think the challenge, Grace, is, you know, so
387
00:17:15.660 --> 00:17:17.339
you've probably done a lot of podcasts and kind of
388
00:17:17.859 --> 00:17:20.309
interviews now. And there's always the tendency to try to
389
00:17:20.349 --> 00:17:21.809
push people to absolute statements.
390
00:17:21.849 --> 00:17:22.430
This works.
391
00:17:22.809 --> 00:17:25.309
This doesn't work. But of course, all of the evidence
392
00:17:25.369 --> 00:17:27.859
has a distribution and there's different types of people in there.
393
00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:30.259
And you know, even the science has kind of pushed
394
00:17:30.299 --> 00:17:32.440
the idea that there is this silver bullet. And I
395
00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:34.680
think it's important to remind ourselves that all of these
396
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:38.059
studies are done where this works for some people and
397
00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.220
it doesn't work for others. And the best person to
398
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:42.819
know if it's working is yourself, the person who's actually
399
00:17:42.859 --> 00:17:43.349
trying it out.
400
00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:46.039
I completely agree. And I think that that's something that
401
00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:48.299
all of us can, you know, you can't absorb advice
402
00:17:48.339 --> 00:17:51.119
without understanding that not all that advice will work for you.
403
00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:53.500
And I'm sure that's something that you definitely want to
404
00:17:53.579 --> 00:17:56.579
kind of get in there whenever you're doing anything, because also,
405
00:17:56.599 --> 00:17:58.819
I mean, as soon as people see science, you know,
406
00:17:58.859 --> 00:18:00.039
as I was saying, as soon as I saw the
407
00:18:00.069 --> 00:18:02.809
scientific backing for Gratitudes, I was like, okay, great, it
408
00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:05.549
must work. Um, and in order for people to kind
409
00:18:05.569 --> 00:18:09.950
of consume, uh, responsibly being able to say, okay, you know,
410
00:18:09.990 --> 00:18:11.869
this might work, this might not work, even if it's
411
00:18:11.890 --> 00:18:14.410
scientifically proven for, you know, some people, this, that, and
412
00:18:14.430 --> 00:18:17.109
the other. Um, I'd like to talk about, uh, the
413
00:18:17.250 --> 00:18:20.910
inclusion initiative. I am, I've read up on what you've
414
00:18:20.990 --> 00:18:24.490
done and, um, you know, you're the founding director of
415
00:18:24.529 --> 00:18:27.450
this inclusion initiative. And I'd love to hear more about
416
00:18:27.490 --> 00:18:30.789
what it entails, both as a job and also the
417
00:18:30.849 --> 00:18:33.890
initiative and what it kind of seeks to do. Could
418
00:18:33.930 --> 00:18:37.019
you tell us more, firstly, about what it does? And
419
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:38.670
then I'm going to ask you some more questions, because
420
00:18:38.710 --> 00:18:41.420
I'm really, really interested in it. And I think what
421
00:18:41.500 --> 00:18:43.400
you are doing with it is unbelievable.
422
00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:44.200
Thank you.
423
00:18:44.259 --> 00:18:46.279
So I mean, the inclusion initiative was born from me
424
00:18:46.339 --> 00:18:50.789
doing work with companies, mainly kind of hedge funds, who
425
00:18:50.809 --> 00:18:54.049
were deciding on portfolios and really figuring out that actually,
426
00:18:54.089 --> 00:18:56.650
if you had different opinions in the room, you ended
427
00:18:56.690 --> 00:18:59.420
up being much more successful. So the idea behind the
428
00:18:59.460 --> 00:19:03.039
inclusion initiative is really to bring that thinking into firms.
429
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:05.119
So the idea that actually, if you have a group
430
00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:07.299
of people who are around a table, you should be
431
00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:10.410
listening to all of them, but also noticing who's missing.
432
00:19:10.910 --> 00:19:12.950
So what type of voices are actually missing from the
433
00:19:12.970 --> 00:19:14.210
table can help me.
434
00:19:15.099 --> 00:19:16.559
So we're going to do three things.
435
00:19:16.740 --> 00:19:19.809
So the first is do what I call interventions inside
436
00:19:19.829 --> 00:19:22.529
in firms where we change something and we look to
437
00:19:22.569 --> 00:19:25.150
see whether or not it worked, A, to improve inclusivity,
438
00:19:25.569 --> 00:19:28.930
but B, to improve the business. The second thing we're
439
00:19:28.950 --> 00:19:31.150
going to do is work out in the real world.
440
00:19:31.269 --> 00:19:35.160
So really talking to people and doing experiments in schools
441
00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:37.819
and with certain groups in society to figure out how
442
00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:40.519
we can make them more included. And the last, which
443
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.400
I'm really excited about, is we're going to measure inclusion
444
00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:44.519
using an index system.
445
00:19:45.309 --> 00:19:45.970
Outside the firm.
446
00:19:46.009 --> 00:19:48.589
So if anyone who's listening who invests, they'll know that
447
00:19:48.609 --> 00:19:52.420
you actually use indexes often to decide who's worth investing
448
00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:54.720
in and who isn't so what we'll end up doing
449
00:19:54.779 --> 00:19:57.759
is having an index that points people towards inclusive firms
450
00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:00.720
again it sounds warm and fuzzy but firms that actually
451
00:20:00.740 --> 00:20:03.589
have higher levels of inclusion have more profits they've.
452
00:20:03.430 --> 00:20:06.730
Lower behavioral risk and they're more creative so yeah.
453
00:20:06.470 --> 00:20:09.710
It's that's so it's exciting you can it's exciting yeah.
454
00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:13.589
Yeah, I mean, I think it's fascinating. And I also think,
455
00:20:13.670 --> 00:20:18.849
you know, it is it's an incredibly constructive angle in
456
00:20:18.910 --> 00:20:21.769
terms of, you know, being able to measure it, being
457
00:20:21.849 --> 00:20:24.170
able to not just put it in place, but also
458
00:20:24.349 --> 00:20:28.210
show what the you know, there is a highly moral
459
00:20:28.259 --> 00:20:30.660
case for all of it and also being able to
460
00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:33.279
put it in place in terms of. business case as well.
461
00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:36.960
In terms of, you know, I work, for example, on
462
00:20:37.220 --> 00:20:41.569
something like sustainability. And sometimes you can convince people via
463
00:20:41.589 --> 00:20:44.349
the moral standpoint, often you have to convince them by
464
00:20:44.390 --> 00:20:46.930
the business standpoint. So by saying, you know, why, why
465
00:20:46.970 --> 00:20:49.369
CSR is great for your business, and why it's going
466
00:20:49.390 --> 00:20:51.390
to do this, that and the other to improve your
467
00:20:51.430 --> 00:20:54.160
investment to improve your interest to improve all of these things.
468
00:20:55.049 --> 00:21:00.839
I guess there, probably the most recent newer indexes in
469
00:21:00.940 --> 00:21:04.500
that case would probably be CSR. Is that right? In
470
00:21:04.539 --> 00:21:06.519
terms of now bringing something like that in?
471
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.740
Yeah, I mean, well, the interesting thing about the environmental
472
00:21:09.779 --> 00:21:11.759
indexes is that there's a lot of them and they
473
00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:15.789
don't overlap that well. So even though they're trendy, we
474
00:21:15.829 --> 00:21:19.390
don't yet know how to measure environmental impacts incredibly well.
475
00:21:19.430 --> 00:21:22.450
But we do know that companies who embrace being socially
476
00:21:22.490 --> 00:21:25.940
responsible do tend to actually do much better than companies
477
00:21:25.980 --> 00:21:28.119
that don't. So I think that there's a challenge to
478
00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:30.710
measure it at the macro level. At the micro level,
479
00:21:30.809 --> 00:21:34.730
we know that startups actually that are more socially responsible
480
00:21:35.049 --> 00:21:36.329
are a better bet than ones that aren't.
481
00:21:36.910 --> 00:21:39.390
Yeah, absolutely. And could you tell us a bit more about,
482
00:21:39.450 --> 00:21:41.890
I know, huge topic, but could you tell us some
483
00:21:43.289 --> 00:21:46.619
your kind of interest in unconscious bias and how that's
484
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:48.559
kind of come into play within this initiative?
485
00:21:49.250 --> 00:21:49.529
Yes.
486
00:21:49.589 --> 00:21:52.150
I mean, what interests me about human beings is that
487
00:21:52.170 --> 00:21:54.740
we think that we're acting deliberately all the time. And
488
00:21:54.779 --> 00:21:57.000
about 80 to 90 percent of the time we're using
489
00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:59.500
what's known as a fast brain where we're on autopilot
490
00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:01.980
and we're reacting and we're not really paying too much
491
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:04.359
attention to what's going on around us.
492
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:06.289
And what started interesting.
493
00:22:06.730 --> 00:22:08.549
So if you look at behavioral science and there's lots
494
00:22:08.589 --> 00:22:11.890
of experiments to show this really matters in small stakes decisions.
495
00:22:12.609 --> 00:22:14.450
And what I really am interested in is looking to
496
00:22:14.490 --> 00:22:17.539
see when this actually matters for big, big decisions. Who
497
00:22:17.579 --> 00:22:20.450
gets hired? Who gets promoted? Who gets funding when they
498
00:22:20.490 --> 00:22:24.269
actually go looking for venture funding? You know, it might
499
00:22:24.309 --> 00:22:26.109
interest you to know that there's actually evidence to show
500
00:22:26.150 --> 00:22:27.930
that depending on where I am in the queue for
501
00:22:27.950 --> 00:22:30.130
venture funding, I'm much more likely to get it and
502
00:22:30.210 --> 00:22:32.029
not get it. That has nothing at all to do
503
00:22:32.049 --> 00:22:33.869
with the product of the company. It has to do
504
00:22:33.890 --> 00:22:36.359
with the time of day, whether I'm meeting the people first,
505
00:22:36.390 --> 00:22:38.900
whether I'm meeting them last and whether they're hungry, bizarrely.
506
00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:38.980
So.
507
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:43.180
So I'll always bring food to pictures. Always bring food,
508
00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:45.670
always bring snacks. And it also makes you memorable, right?
509
00:22:45.690 --> 00:22:48.269
So bring good snacks if you're going to bring anything.
510
00:22:49.289 --> 00:22:51.960
And that's essentially how we integrated into the inclusion initiative.
511
00:22:51.980 --> 00:22:53.500
We kind of say, look, if people are going to
512
00:22:53.539 --> 00:22:55.660
be on autopilot, not paying attention 80 to 90% of
513
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:59.140
the time. How can we interrupt their thoughts when they're
514
00:22:59.180 --> 00:23:02.250
making big decisions and make sure they have competitive edges
515
00:23:02.309 --> 00:23:05.049
compared to people who just carry on on autopilot?
516
00:23:05.670 --> 00:23:08.170
Would you say there are areas of that then that people,
517
00:23:08.250 --> 00:23:12.329
obviously unconscious bias is very much the people fighting it
518
00:23:12.349 --> 00:23:16.049
or the people trying to work alongside or go for
519
00:23:16.069 --> 00:23:18.529
funding when they know there is unconscious bias against them.
520
00:23:18.890 --> 00:23:22.609
Do you think there are... things that those people can do,
521
00:23:22.690 --> 00:23:24.089
not that the blame is on them and not that
522
00:23:24.130 --> 00:23:26.910
it should be them that change changes, but for example,
523
00:23:27.130 --> 00:23:29.490
like a little one, like bring food. But, you know,
524
00:23:29.549 --> 00:23:31.430
beyond that, do you think there are things that you
525
00:23:31.490 --> 00:23:34.470
can do when you know there might be that bias
526
00:23:34.529 --> 00:23:37.769
against you in order to improve your chances? Yes.
527
00:23:38.009 --> 00:23:41.730
So, I mean, the obvious advice is really know your stuff, right?
528
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:42.380
When you go in.
529
00:23:42.410 --> 00:23:44.740
So whatever question is thrown at you, you want to
530
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:47.059
be seen to be confident. But I think the second
531
00:23:47.099 --> 00:23:48.640
then is that there is evidence to suggest that you
532
00:23:48.660 --> 00:23:50.930
can tip the odds in your favour and by doing
533
00:23:50.990 --> 00:23:53.869
things like choosing your position and asking for a particular place.
534
00:23:53.910 --> 00:23:56.450
So if I know that I'm the best, I should
535
00:23:56.470 --> 00:23:59.190
go first. So I, you know, I'm going to be
536
00:23:59.230 --> 00:24:01.559
much more memorable, but I have to be certain that
537
00:24:01.579 --> 00:24:03.880
I'm the best. If I think it's a close competition
538
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:06.119
and there's lots of other great people, you want to
539
00:24:06.140 --> 00:24:08.539
go last because you're much more memorable. The person who's
540
00:24:08.579 --> 00:24:11.900
seen last in the day is much more memorable. You definitely,
541
00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:13.869
you know, we joked about it, but you definitely do
542
00:24:13.910 --> 00:24:16.589
want to avoid lunchtime when people are hungry and also
543
00:24:16.789 --> 00:24:19.109
after lunch when people aren't necessarily paying attention.
544
00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:20.960
Which is really, really important.
545
00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:23.920
The other thing is, you know, there's a bias called
546
00:24:23.940 --> 00:24:26.140
the peak-end effect, which really tells us that when we're
547
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:28.990
having a conversation with people, we're not really listening.
548
00:24:29.309 --> 00:24:30.450
We remember two things.
549
00:24:30.490 --> 00:24:33.549
We remember the best moment of the presentation, and we
550
00:24:33.650 --> 00:24:36.930
also remember the end effect of the presentation. So anyone
551
00:24:36.950 --> 00:24:40.130
who's learned to pitch will learn kind of three things. Firstly,
552
00:24:40.150 --> 00:24:42.880
you tell a really good story in the beginning because
553
00:24:42.940 --> 00:24:44.359
narrative works better than data.
554
00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:45.559
Secondly.
555
00:24:46.109 --> 00:24:48.309
Around the middle of your pitch or kind of a
556
00:24:48.430 --> 00:24:50.490
little bit towards the end, you want to have your
557
00:24:50.529 --> 00:24:52.869
highest moment. So what's the biggest impact that you want
558
00:24:52.910 --> 00:24:55.849
people to take away? And stressing that they should remember it.
559
00:24:56.329 --> 00:24:58.829
And then the end part is you want to be
560
00:24:58.869 --> 00:25:00.890
memorable in your exit. And if you get those three
561
00:25:00.950 --> 00:25:03.759
things right, you will tip your odds in the favour
562
00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:06.339
compared to somebody who didn't bother to come up with
563
00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:08.599
a good story. compared to somebody who didn't bother to
564
00:25:08.619 --> 00:25:09.200
give a good ending.
565
00:25:09.259 --> 00:25:11.369
That's so interesting. And do you find, I know that
566
00:25:11.390 --> 00:25:13.930
you work with, you work on the kind of corporate
567
00:25:13.970 --> 00:25:16.950
side of trying to implement the changes in these unconscious biases.
568
00:25:17.349 --> 00:25:19.670
Do you ever work with people in terms of that
569
00:25:19.750 --> 00:25:22.450
type of, you know, coaching, how to pitch better, how
570
00:25:22.490 --> 00:25:24.099
to do any of that? Or are there places that
571
00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:26.519
you think people can go to in order to improve
572
00:25:26.579 --> 00:25:29.380
their chances when they know that the odds aren't in
573
00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:29.920
their favor?
574
00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:32.500
So I've done the other side of it more, where
575
00:25:32.539 --> 00:25:34.140
I sit with people who are thinking about giving out
576
00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:37.940
money and try to kind of disentangle the guff, which
577
00:25:38.009 --> 00:25:41.089
is the storytelling from the actual particulars that are in
578
00:25:41.109 --> 00:25:43.589
the meeting and pointing that out. But I have done
579
00:25:43.609 --> 00:25:45.509
a little bit of coaching with entrepreneurs at the LSE.
580
00:25:45.549 --> 00:25:47.930
We have a thing called LSE Generate, where our students
581
00:25:47.970 --> 00:25:51.220
basically have kind of an incubator style model where they
582
00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:54.359
have startups and really kind of getting them to think about, okay,
583
00:25:54.500 --> 00:25:56.940
assuming that everything else is in play and you're really,
584
00:25:56.960 --> 00:25:59.200
really competent, what are the kind of small tips and
585
00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:01.509
tricks that you can do in order to make sure
586
00:26:01.529 --> 00:26:02.519
that you're going to tip the odds.
587
00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:02.890
In your favor?
588
00:26:05.670 --> 00:26:08.380
This is David and John from the David McWilliams podcast
589
00:26:08.740 --> 00:26:11.299
brought to you by Monzo, Ireland's newest bank.
590
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:14.039
Now we've mentioned more than once about the need for
591
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:16.759
more choice in Irish banking. Well, now we have some.
592
00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:20.240
Monzo is a bank built for Ireland with Irish I-bands
593
00:26:20.279 --> 00:26:22.700
and a team here in Dublin. And there are no
594
00:26:22.740 --> 00:26:25.299
monthly fees. Get a free Monzo account for yourself and
595
00:26:25.339 --> 00:26:27.900
your kids. And if you run a business, open a
596
00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:30.980
free business bank account too if you're an eligible sole
597
00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:33.819
trader or limited company in Ireland. You can manage all
598
00:26:33.859 --> 00:26:37.140
your Monzo accounts on one app. Monzo have also been
599
00:26:37.180 --> 00:26:40.220
kind enough and clever enough to sponsor Kilkenomics in November,
600
00:26:40.420 --> 00:26:40.819
for which.
601
00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:43.819
We are very grateful. A new era of banking is here.
602
00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:46.559
Sign up today by downloading the Monzo app.
603
00:26:46.900 --> 00:26:49.789
Monzo Bank Europe DAC, trading as Monzo, is regulated by
604
00:26:49.809 --> 00:26:52.529
the Central Bank of Ireland. Terms and conditions apply. This
605
00:26:52.569 --> 00:26:55.269
is David from the David McWilliams podcast with a message
606
00:26:55.329 --> 00:26:59.650
from Vodafone Business Unified Comms with Ring Central. Running a
607
00:26:59.690 --> 00:27:03.599
business usually involves juggling endless moving parts across all your
608
00:27:03.660 --> 00:27:08.660
different apps and devices. Vodafone Unified Comms is here to help.
609
00:27:09.420 --> 00:27:12.359
All business managers know that it is so important to
610
00:27:12.420 --> 00:27:16.660
keep your whole business in sync. Vodafone Business Unified Comms
611
00:27:16.740 --> 00:27:20.009
brings together all your comms needs, like phone calls and
612
00:27:20.049 --> 00:27:25.589
video meetings, into a single platform. It connects owners, staff, customers,
613
00:27:25.789 --> 00:27:29.309
and suppliers in real time, so you'll never miss another
614
00:27:29.390 --> 00:27:34.650
call or message. Search Vodafone Unified Comms to find out more.
615
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:39.180
ESB is ready to open its doors to this country.
616
00:27:39.220 --> 00:27:39.329
Again.
617
00:27:39.329 --> 00:27:43.450
30 years of hard work, more than a year of
618
00:27:43.470 --> 00:27:45.690
hard work, and more than a year of hard work
619
00:27:45.730 --> 00:27:50.069
to open the doors to this country. And if you
620
00:27:50.089 --> 00:27:53.470
do that, you'll be able to make a difference. You
621
00:27:53.490 --> 00:27:56.200
can do it yourself. You can find us on ESB.ie.
622
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:11.359
Yeah, I think that's incredibly interesting. And I want to
623
00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:14.000
talk to you about work and what that's like for you.
624
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:18.059
So let's get let's get honest. If you could change
625
00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:20.750
one thing about your job, what would it be?
626
00:28:21.170 --> 00:28:24.650
Oh, bureaucracy and maybe marking of assignments in that order.
627
00:28:25.130 --> 00:28:28.029
So it's much slower to do anything in an academic
628
00:28:28.190 --> 00:28:30.079
institution than it is to do it in a business.
629
00:28:30.150 --> 00:28:30.359
Right.
630
00:28:30.390 --> 00:28:32.000
So if you wanted something, if you want to do
631
00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:33.880
something today, Grace, you'll just make a decision and it
632
00:28:33.940 --> 00:28:36.380
will happen. I probably have to fill out 10 different
633
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:39.009
forms and go to about nine different committees. And I
634
00:28:39.049 --> 00:28:41.109
would love to get rid of that. It's really a
635
00:28:41.130 --> 00:28:43.349
waste of time. I think it slows down progress, but
636
00:28:43.430 --> 00:28:46.069
marking is very tedious as well. I mean, I love
637
00:28:46.089 --> 00:28:48.930
my students, but you know, they, especially if you have
638
00:28:48.970 --> 00:28:51.779
an assignment where it doesn't allow for creativity and you're
639
00:28:51.799 --> 00:28:55.019
just getting the same answers back from everybody when it's good.
640
00:28:55.259 --> 00:28:57.500
Just give everyone, give everyone an A.
641
00:28:57.559 --> 00:28:59.519
I would love to. I would absolutely love to.
642
00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:03.980
You're welcome, Gracie students. I've got you covered here. so
643
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:06.579
um yeah I mean I think that I I've been
644
00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:09.359
talking recently with a lot of new um senior staff
645
00:29:09.400 --> 00:29:11.279
on onboarding and that's the one that we've been doing
646
00:29:11.299 --> 00:29:14.619
these things called personal user manuals and really decide you
647
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:16.880
know sharing with people like what I like and what
648
00:29:16.940 --> 00:29:18.829
I don't like in order to work best with me
649
00:29:19.170 --> 00:29:22.089
and mine on mine every time it's like meetings that
650
00:29:22.170 --> 00:29:25.009
could have been an email do not even try do
651
00:29:25.049 --> 00:29:27.289
not come near me and all of that and it's
652
00:29:27.390 --> 00:29:30.099
and also you know it's not always about just having
653
00:29:30.130 --> 00:29:32.460
something that shows what you've done the best thing we
654
00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:34.460
can do is spend as much time doing it as
655
00:29:34.500 --> 00:29:36.809
possible and then just headlines that can kind of summarize
656
00:29:36.829 --> 00:29:39.589
that but kind of getting rid of that bureaucracy and
657
00:29:39.630 --> 00:29:41.339
I know you know I did a Q & A
658
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:43.519
the other day asking people for their work problems and
659
00:29:43.619 --> 00:29:47.940
so many people said just like unnecessary amounts of meetings
660
00:29:48.259 --> 00:29:50.819
or forms or paperwork and all of that I know
661
00:29:50.859 --> 00:29:53.940
within academia it's kind of particular bureaucracy but I also
662
00:29:53.980 --> 00:29:58.740
think there's an area of where it feels more legitimized
663
00:29:58.809 --> 00:30:00.990
if you have like a form that says something or
664
00:30:01.109 --> 00:30:03.970
a meeting that decides something rather than just a, okay, yeah,
665
00:30:04.009 --> 00:30:04.490
let's do it.
666
00:30:05.130 --> 00:30:05.349
It is.
667
00:30:05.490 --> 00:30:07.650
So how do you make sure your meetings don't end
668
00:30:07.710 --> 00:30:10.359
up being one hour of pointlessness?
669
00:30:11.380 --> 00:30:13.160
Well, first of all, I never set them for an hour.
670
00:30:13.240 --> 00:30:17.839
So the automatic is half an hour or 45 minutes.
671
00:30:18.019 --> 00:30:21.480
And it completely depends. But I... What I really try
672
00:30:21.529 --> 00:30:26.049
and encourage is that feedback. So from, I think, you know,
673
00:30:26.089 --> 00:30:28.109
you can't just be an organization that says like, oh,
674
00:30:28.130 --> 00:30:30.700
we appreciate opinions at every level. You have to show
675
00:30:30.740 --> 00:30:32.579
you appreciate opinions at every level. So you have to
676
00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:37.230
cultivate a kind of culture whereby people can say, when
677
00:30:37.329 --> 00:30:40.799
I read out... different sections on this, this and this,
678
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:42.799
it takes me two days to prepare for it, which
679
00:30:42.859 --> 00:30:44.500
is two days out of the week. And I'm just
680
00:30:44.539 --> 00:30:46.279
telling you what's happened, it would be much better if
681
00:30:46.339 --> 00:30:49.019
I do this. And I always encourage people to come
682
00:30:49.059 --> 00:30:51.259
with that feedback. However, I know that that's not always
683
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:55.059
easy within, you know, other firms that there isn't so
684
00:30:55.099 --> 00:30:57.299
much flexibility. But I think one of the great things
685
00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:00.869
about where work is moving now is if we're concentrating
686
00:31:00.930 --> 00:31:03.490
on productivity, and we're concentrating on being the most efficient
687
00:31:03.529 --> 00:31:06.500
and effective, we're then actually it's very much within your
688
00:31:06.539 --> 00:31:10.539
manager's interest, within your company's interest to get those things
689
00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:14.900
more streamlined. It's always a work in progress, but for me,
690
00:31:14.940 --> 00:31:18.309
it's always been about encouraging feedback and also setting a
691
00:31:18.349 --> 00:31:22.849
precedence for no unnecessary red tape where possible.
692
00:31:22.890 --> 00:31:24.849
Transparency is an interesting one though, isn't it?
693
00:31:24.849 --> 00:31:27.210
Because if you think about it, if we trust our managers,
694
00:31:27.299 --> 00:31:29.440
we don't need transparency and we don't need the meetings
695
00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:31.779
because we're happy to leave our managers do what they're
696
00:31:32.299 --> 00:31:34.430
So when you talk about that, I just I imagine
697
00:31:34.450 --> 00:31:35.750
that you've built trust in your team.
698
00:31:36.190 --> 00:31:36.390
Right.
699
00:31:36.450 --> 00:31:38.549
So, well, you don't have to do the reporting, whereas
700
00:31:39.069 --> 00:31:42.269
in universities where there's different disciplines who don't trust each other,
701
00:31:42.349 --> 00:31:44.059
I think that might be the root of our problem.
702
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:45.319
Yeah.
703
00:31:45.460 --> 00:31:47.859
Or I feel like, you know, part of it may
704
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:50.240
very well be the size we are. So, you know,
705
00:31:50.259 --> 00:31:52.460
there have been times where we've realized, OK, we're doing
706
00:31:52.529 --> 00:31:55.339
far too much of this. Let's scale back. but actually
707
00:31:55.359 --> 00:31:57.980
just putting in kind of like standard operating procedures and
708
00:31:58.059 --> 00:32:01.680
frameworks that kind of say, you just update this, it's
709
00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:05.099
five minutes slot in every weekly manager's meeting. And beyond that,
710
00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:07.480
you just get on with your work. But definitely some
711
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:09.859
of it will also be because there's the visibility throughout
712
00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:11.920
the organisation. And maybe some of them will listen to
713
00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:14.460
this and think like, oh, Grace, you have no idea.
714
00:32:14.500 --> 00:32:17.269
We need to stop the meetings. But that's kind of
715
00:32:17.369 --> 00:32:19.470
my overarching opinion on it. Fantastic.
716
00:32:19.490 --> 00:32:20.210
No, I agree with you.
717
00:32:20.269 --> 00:32:22.789
Pointless meetings is definitely one of my problems as well.
718
00:32:25.089 --> 00:32:27.789
Um, so second question, what is the hardest day you've
719
00:32:27.890 --> 00:32:30.210
ever had at work? What happened? And how did you
720
00:32:30.230 --> 00:32:30.730
get through it?
721
00:32:31.210 --> 00:32:32.970
I mean, honestly, when I when I because I knew
722
00:32:32.990 --> 00:32:34.519
you were going to ask me that question. And I
723
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:36.259
thought about it. And it really is just when I
724
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:39.700
have pointless meeting after pointless meeting after pointless meeting. And
725
00:32:39.740 --> 00:32:42.259
then I don't get through it. I mean, difficult problems
726
00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:45.380
where there's something to be resolved. And the poop hits
727
00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:48.230
the fan. I'm actually quite I'm actually quite okay with
728
00:32:48.289 --> 00:32:49.910
I mean, I do get stressed. And if you met me,
729
00:32:49.950 --> 00:32:51.670
you would say that I'm stressed, but I sleep well
730
00:32:51.710 --> 00:32:55.549
at night after those days. It is just the tediousness
731
00:32:55.650 --> 00:32:57.509
of actually coming home at night and realizing I got
732
00:32:57.549 --> 00:33:01.680
nothing done because I wasted it discussing something with people
733
00:33:01.700 --> 00:33:05.099
who wouldn't make a decision anyway. So I've barely gotten
734
00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:08.059
through it. And usually at the end, it's about watching
735
00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:09.910
something good on TV and having a glass of wine.
736
00:33:10.109 --> 00:33:10.809
You know, it's not.
737
00:33:11.289 --> 00:33:11.529
Yeah.
738
00:33:11.809 --> 00:33:17.029
But time wasting is absolutely my biggest regret in life.
739
00:33:17.109 --> 00:33:17.490
Yeah.
740
00:33:17.750 --> 00:33:20.460
No, absolutely. And I think what you say actually about,
741
00:33:20.500 --> 00:33:22.539
you know, when shit hits the fan and when you
742
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:24.259
have to get through everything and you have to do this,
743
00:33:24.299 --> 00:33:26.400
that and the other to... You're in a complete crisis.
744
00:33:26.700 --> 00:33:28.519
isn't it so strange that we often come out of
745
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:31.740
that feeling far more fulfilled than we do on the
746
00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:33.880
kind of regular day that's one of my you know
747
00:33:34.299 --> 00:33:36.660
crises are the absolute worst but when you work with
748
00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:38.529
your team and you kind of sort things out and
749
00:33:38.549 --> 00:33:40.289
you've worked through it this way that way and everything
750
00:33:40.910 --> 00:33:42.470
I think it might it must be because you're in
751
00:33:42.490 --> 00:33:45.009
your flow so it's a high challenge and but also
752
00:33:45.069 --> 00:33:47.190
like a high skill level you can get through it
753
00:33:47.769 --> 00:33:49.869
um but it always fascinates me because I kind of
754
00:33:49.890 --> 00:33:51.670
think like that should have been the worst day ever
755
00:33:51.789 --> 00:33:53.470
and yet I've come out of that thinking like oh
756
00:33:54.130 --> 00:33:55.130
I've got this. Yeah.
757
00:33:55.730 --> 00:33:57.559
And it gives you faith as well that the worst
758
00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:00.880
didn't happen. You caught the ball before it dropped. So
759
00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:03.980
those kind of challenges, I've had a few in recent years.
760
00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:06.819
They definitely stress you out when you're in the moment,
761
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:09.079
but it feels at least you have control and you
762
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:11.280
take action. Put me in a boring meeting where I
763
00:34:11.300 --> 00:34:14.030
have no control and that's definitely my worst day ever.
764
00:34:15.050 --> 00:34:17.170
It's the worst feeling when you're just sitting there and
765
00:34:17.769 --> 00:34:20.059
wasting time. What would you say then to those people
766
00:34:20.139 --> 00:34:24.260
who say, for example, you know, I feel so unproductive
767
00:34:24.300 --> 00:34:27.219
at work because either I'm not set enough work or
768
00:34:27.579 --> 00:34:29.480
because I spend a lot of my time in pointless
769
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:30.550
meetings that shouldn't be done?
770
00:34:30.570 --> 00:34:32.929
I think if you don't feel stretched, you should start
771
00:34:32.949 --> 00:34:35.730
looking for new opportunities. And whether or not that's in
772
00:34:35.769 --> 00:34:38.550
your current job or outside your current job, I think
773
00:34:38.889 --> 00:34:40.510
it really is up to you to ask for them.
774
00:34:40.730 --> 00:34:42.900
I mean, there's a reason why you end up not
775
00:34:42.940 --> 00:34:45.570
feeling stretched at work. And it might be you and
776
00:34:45.590 --> 00:34:47.849
it might be the manager. But at any time, we
777
00:34:47.869 --> 00:34:49.250
can ask for more and we can.
778
00:34:49.170 --> 00:34:50.510
Ask for different.
779
00:34:50.530 --> 00:34:52.889
And when I read your book, it really reminded me
780
00:34:53.010 --> 00:34:55.989
of kind of the idea of job crafting, that you
781
00:34:56.030 --> 00:34:58.210
can take your current job and you can take your
782
00:34:58.269 --> 00:35:02.139
current life, if you like, and design your job.
783
00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:03.360
In a way that really works for you.
784
00:35:03.380 --> 00:35:06.510
And I think actually, People don't realize that they have
785
00:35:06.530 --> 00:35:08.730
that autonomy in lots of jobs that you might not
786
00:35:08.750 --> 00:35:11.000
think otherwise. If you're in a corporate setting and you're
787
00:35:11.019 --> 00:35:14.179
rolling your eyes, you absolutely can craft your job. Probably
788
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:16.570
not to the same extent that Grace can craft her
789
00:35:16.590 --> 00:35:19.250
job because she's an entrepreneur and has perfect freedom, but
790
00:35:19.289 --> 00:35:21.469
you still have scope for that and you should absolutely
791
00:35:21.510 --> 00:35:21.820
take it.
792
00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:23.519
Yeah. Well, I think it's so interesting. It's such a
793
00:35:23.699 --> 00:35:26.860
difficult thing to thinking like, oh, I'm bored. I'm going
794
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:28.900
to ask for more work because almost instantly you kind
795
00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:31.280
of regret it, but you regret it in a like,
796
00:35:31.460 --> 00:35:33.480
I'm being more fulfilled, but why the hell did I
797
00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:35.840
ask for more work? That's kind of how I've always felt.
798
00:35:35.880 --> 00:35:38.750
So I, you know, I being completely honest, I don't
799
00:35:38.789 --> 00:35:41.389
think my job when I worked at IBM was suited
800
00:35:41.429 --> 00:35:43.269
to me at all. I felt like I could have
801
00:35:43.289 --> 00:35:45.829
been a machine, all of these things. And And when
802
00:35:45.869 --> 00:35:47.909
I felt kind of like I was the most insane
803
00:35:47.949 --> 00:35:50.050
was when I was going to heads of other departments
804
00:35:50.090 --> 00:35:51.760
and being like, hello, would like to do some more
805
00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:54.960
experience after hours or in this time or whatever. And
806
00:35:55.179 --> 00:35:57.400
but actually, that was the most fulfilling. And that was what,
807
00:35:57.480 --> 00:35:59.880
you know, ended up I even spent some time in e-commerce.
808
00:35:59.920 --> 00:36:01.920
And that was kind of what ended up getting to,
809
00:36:02.219 --> 00:36:04.280
you know, where where I am now. But I think
810
00:36:04.340 --> 00:36:06.340
it is so true. You know, I always say that.
811
00:36:07.340 --> 00:36:10.190
And you have a lot of the time more freedom
812
00:36:10.230 --> 00:36:13.469
than you think, especially when it comes to asking for
813
00:36:13.550 --> 00:36:16.070
more work or asking for different angles or say, you know,
814
00:36:16.110 --> 00:36:18.929
sitting down with your manager and saying, I'm feeling slightly unfulfilled.
815
00:36:19.110 --> 00:36:21.150
I think we could improve this system. I think we
816
00:36:21.170 --> 00:36:23.570
could improve this. Or do I have your blessing to
817
00:36:23.610 --> 00:36:26.380
work on a pitch for this? And I always kind
818
00:36:26.420 --> 00:36:28.679
of encourage that because that's also something that I would
819
00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:31.980
very much encourage at any of my organizations.
820
00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:34.119
And the way you frame that actually is really interesting
821
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:36.000
because it's exactly the right way. You shouldn't go and say,
822
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:39.699
I feel unfulfilled, fix me. You said, I feel unfulfilled.
823
00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:41.659
I think this could be changed. This could be changed.
824
00:36:41.719 --> 00:36:44.519
And immediately you're giving a solution to the person who's
825
00:36:44.539 --> 00:36:47.489
sitting in front of you, who's probably also feeling unfulfilled, right?
826
00:36:47.550 --> 00:36:50.190
So They're much more likely to help you out if
827
00:36:50.210 --> 00:36:51.809
you make it easy for them to help you out.
828
00:36:51.829 --> 00:36:54.260
Yeah, absolutely. We're going to move on to the hardly
829
00:36:54.300 --> 00:36:57.000
working section because it's important to talk about life outside
830
00:36:57.019 --> 00:36:59.880
of work, both as a part of work and our
831
00:36:59.960 --> 00:37:02.980
working lives, but also because, you know, we're all human beings.
832
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:04.739
And as soon as we start looking at ourselves as
833
00:37:04.780 --> 00:37:07.949
just like forms of human capital, then that's when it
834
00:37:07.989 --> 00:37:10.289
gets all very not fulfilling at all. So I'm going
835
00:37:10.329 --> 00:37:13.590
to start with just three quick fire questions. First things first,
836
00:37:13.690 --> 00:37:14.789
Netflix or a walk?
837
00:37:15.250 --> 00:37:15.510
A walk.
838
00:37:16.170 --> 00:37:18.590
After work, a cup of tea or a glass of wine?
839
00:37:18.610 --> 00:37:19.239
Glass of wine.
840
00:37:19.340 --> 00:37:22.039
Letting off steam, a workout or a night out?
841
00:37:22.179 --> 00:37:24.539
A night out. I wish it was a workout.
842
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:25.340
I like your answers.
843
00:37:25.420 --> 00:37:26.360
That would be much easier.
844
00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:30.309
Well, technically, a night out is kind of a workout
845
00:37:30.369 --> 00:37:31.090
if you move enough.
846
00:37:31.329 --> 00:37:31.849
That is true.
847
00:37:32.739 --> 00:37:36.079
That's my philosophy anyway. You know, as the owner of
848
00:37:36.099 --> 00:37:39.039
some fitness companies, I do actually, you know, condone the
849
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:42.980
night out for dancing. So are you good at taking
850
00:37:43.019 --> 00:37:44.760
time off? This is not quickfire anymore.
851
00:37:46.280 --> 00:37:47.139
No, not really.
852
00:37:47.260 --> 00:37:49.159
And it is actually something that I have to be
853
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:51.849
quite disciplined about. So I do take time off and
854
00:37:52.090 --> 00:37:55.489
I turn off my emails and I don't check them.
855
00:37:55.730 --> 00:37:58.349
But it is a struggle. There is something in me.
856
00:37:58.449 --> 00:38:00.230
And I think this is the problem actually where you
857
00:38:00.269 --> 00:38:03.039
find a job that you're really interested in, that it
858
00:38:03.059 --> 00:38:05.079
can spill over into all dimensions of your life.
859
00:38:05.539 --> 00:38:07.449
But I think it's a battle worth fighting.
860
00:38:07.789 --> 00:38:09.909
I think it absolutely is. And I think it's something
861
00:38:09.929 --> 00:38:14.070
that also we all kind of expect to have learnt
862
00:38:14.510 --> 00:38:17.650
and we all kind of think, we're born with a
863
00:38:17.650 --> 00:38:21.710
kind of built-in rest area that we we can just
864
00:38:21.789 --> 00:38:24.130
activate and rest and actually I think one of the
865
00:38:24.150 --> 00:38:26.219
biggest things that I found is that the way I
866
00:38:26.260 --> 00:38:28.039
want to rest is always it's not always the most
867
00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:30.079
productive form of rest and I don't mean that you
868
00:38:30.099 --> 00:38:32.400
know being productive by going on like an active rest
869
00:38:32.420 --> 00:38:34.820
day walk I mean you know what's actually going to
870
00:38:34.900 --> 00:38:36.920
recharge me and what's going to make me feel better
871
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:39.039
in this moment I think it's I think it's one
872
00:38:39.059 --> 00:38:40.619
of those things that we actually need to learn from
873
00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:42.929
ourselves and we need to kind of almost take notes
874
00:38:43.050 --> 00:38:44.849
on and and develop.
875
00:38:45.139 --> 00:38:46.460
And that's part of resilience, right?
876
00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:48.420
So if you figure out what recharges you when you
877
00:38:48.460 --> 00:38:50.659
have a bad time and you go do that when
878
00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:53.489
you're having a bad time, I think that that's probably
879
00:38:53.510 --> 00:38:55.630
the best, you know, that's the best lessons that you
880
00:38:55.650 --> 00:38:56.969
can learn for your life. If you think about the
881
00:38:56.989 --> 00:38:59.929
three things, find a job you like, find the time
882
00:39:00.269 --> 00:39:02.409
to invest in it and then figure out a way
883
00:39:02.429 --> 00:39:03.409
that you can stay charged.
884
00:39:03.710 --> 00:39:08.300
Yeah. And when you do take time off, what... Do
885
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:10.409
you have kind of hard and fast rules about what
886
00:39:10.429 --> 00:39:12.969
that looks like in terms of not accessing your emails
887
00:39:13.030 --> 00:39:14.550
or not doing this, that and the other? Or is
888
00:39:14.610 --> 00:39:15.909
it just improv?
889
00:39:16.650 --> 00:39:19.170
So I have, when I take time off, everything comes
890
00:39:19.230 --> 00:39:22.510
off my phone. So every alert to every social media, emails,
891
00:39:22.670 --> 00:39:24.929
even you can't ring me. So if I was going,
892
00:39:24.989 --> 00:39:26.550
if I, so I can ring you, but you can't
893
00:39:26.610 --> 00:39:28.269
ring me. It's a really weird thing. That fills me
894
00:39:28.289 --> 00:39:28.690
with stress.
895
00:39:28.750 --> 00:39:29.880
It drives my family out.
896
00:39:30.500 --> 00:39:32.639
Crazy so my dad will keep trying to ring me
897
00:39:32.659 --> 00:39:35.139
because he doesn't understand that I've actually turned the ringer
898
00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:38.059
off my phone But yeah, it's the ultimate unplug.
899
00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:38.860
It really is.
900
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:41.000
And I think it's about kind of taking control. This
901
00:39:41.059 --> 00:39:42.619
is the time that I'm gonna spend on things that
902
00:39:42.659 --> 00:39:43.179
I like.
903
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:46.280
And what about things like weekends? Do you, obviously that's
904
00:39:46.300 --> 00:39:48.920
a kind of middle ground between the proper taking time
905
00:39:49.019 --> 00:39:52.500
off and the working. How do you kind of get
906
00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:54.469
the most out of your weekends in order to recharge?
907
00:39:54.570 --> 00:39:56.170
A lot of times, I will be honest, at the moment,
908
00:39:56.190 --> 00:39:57.409
I'm not taking weekends.
909
00:39:57.610 --> 00:40:00.730
And it's not a good thing because I can feel
910
00:40:00.789 --> 00:40:03.690
myself starting to burn out.
911
00:40:03.750 --> 00:40:04.849
I'm very disappointed in you.
912
00:40:04.929 --> 00:40:07.050
I know I am. I am disappointed.
913
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:09.139
I mean, for people who read the book, I am
914
00:40:09.320 --> 00:40:13.159
extraordinarily flawed in every area. So you should take your
915
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:15.760
weekend and you should put fences around it. But everything
916
00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:17.840
just bleeds into it, particularly when you work with other
917
00:40:17.900 --> 00:40:19.679
companies and they all work at the weekend.
918
00:40:19.699 --> 00:40:19.780
Yeah.
919
00:40:20.699 --> 00:40:23.539
But when things go right, I stop working at eight
920
00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:26.000
o'clock on a Friday and then I start working again
921
00:40:26.019 --> 00:40:29.780
at eight o'clock on a Sunday. And I have those
922
00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:32.510
two days with nothing, essentially.
923
00:40:32.530 --> 00:40:37.050
And do you find when you take a proper, proper,
924
00:40:37.090 --> 00:40:39.969
proper weekend compared to when you have like work seeping
925
00:40:40.010 --> 00:40:42.210
through that it actually improves your work the next week?
926
00:40:42.329 --> 00:40:44.880
Yes, absolutely. It does. It does. And I mean, it's
927
00:40:44.909 --> 00:40:47.480
reminding yourself of that. So you actually take the weekends.
928
00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:50.019
I know. And it's so much easier said than done,
929
00:40:50.059 --> 00:40:52.260
isn't it? Because you think like, I mean, I know
930
00:40:52.300 --> 00:40:54.429
the rules. I think people, people now always ask me,
931
00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:56.260
they're like, how did you achieve such a balance? And
932
00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:58.460
I'm thinking like, read all of these rules and then
933
00:40:58.500 --> 00:41:00.989
understand that I'm awful at taking my own advice. So
934
00:41:01.849 --> 00:41:04.230
I know it all, but I'm not using it.
935
00:41:04.409 --> 00:41:06.070
You make a rod for your own back when you talk.
936
00:41:06.090 --> 00:41:07.909
I mean, in behavioral science, we always talk about kind
937
00:41:07.929 --> 00:41:09.510
of two types of people, naive.
938
00:41:09.070 --> 00:41:10.289
People and sophisticated people.
939
00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:13.320
And sophisticated are people who know about the biases, but
940
00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:16.639
actually sophisticated people are no better than the naive people
941
00:41:16.679 --> 00:41:19.480
at putting things in place to circumvent them.
942
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:20.880
So just knowing something.
943
00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:23.760
Doesn't really help us. But yeah, I'm definitely floored when
944
00:41:23.820 --> 00:41:25.139
it comes to taking weekends off.
945
00:41:26.309 --> 00:41:29.659
So basically in that naive and sophisticated, we're all slightly useless,
946
00:41:29.699 --> 00:41:31.400
but in different awarenesses.
947
00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:33.440
Some of us feel that we know more than others
948
00:41:33.539 --> 00:41:35.699
when in fact we're just as useless as everybody else.
949
00:41:35.739 --> 00:41:37.900
I think that actually makes us more useless because then
950
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:39.880
we actually know it and then we don't put it
951
00:41:39.900 --> 00:41:42.019
into action. I think that's the type of useless I
952
00:41:42.059 --> 00:41:44.829
very much embody. And it also gives you a kind
953
00:41:44.849 --> 00:41:47.769
of anxiety around it because you think... I know that
954
00:41:48.010 --> 00:41:50.090
this is the wrong thing to be doing and yet
955
00:41:50.170 --> 00:41:52.030
I'm doing it when it comes to taking time off
956
00:41:52.070 --> 00:41:54.150
when it comes to putting too much work on my
957
00:41:54.190 --> 00:41:57.449
plate I know in the moment I'm very very aware
958
00:41:57.760 --> 00:41:59.519
do I stop no and that.
959
00:41:59.420 --> 00:42:00.820
Part that you said last is the part that I'm
960
00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:02.900
still figuring out so it's about putting too much work
961
00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:05.440
on your plate so figuring out what are the things
962
00:42:05.460 --> 00:42:07.460
that you absolutely should do and what are the things
963
00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:10.369
that you should say no to I think when I
964
00:42:10.409 --> 00:42:12.719
crack that, I will have my weekends back.
965
00:42:13.050 --> 00:42:13.360
Great.
966
00:42:13.389 --> 00:42:16.219
That'll be my second book, How to Say No, and
967
00:42:16.260 --> 00:42:17.300
then in brackets, Stick to It.
968
00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:19.059
So maybe we could put in place for you, you know, 2022,
969
00:42:19.039 --> 00:42:21.079
the year of weekends. How do you feel about that?
970
00:42:21.099 --> 00:42:29.289
I would love it. Okay. I might get in contact
971
00:42:29.309 --> 00:42:31.429
with you on January the 1st and enforce that.
972
00:42:31.510 --> 00:42:32.969
I will warn you though, if you get to know me,
973
00:42:32.989 --> 00:42:34.769
that I think that my future self is going to
974
00:42:34.789 --> 00:42:37.239
be much better than my current self always.
975
00:42:37.449 --> 00:42:40.179
I think that's something we all think though. Is there
976
00:42:40.219 --> 00:42:42.219
a way that you kind of combat that? Or do
977
00:42:42.260 --> 00:42:45.099
you think that that's just something that we all kind
978
00:42:45.139 --> 00:42:46.119
of have to exist with?
979
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:49.469
I think it's structures and committing to structures. So I mean,
980
00:42:49.489 --> 00:42:51.289
I'm really good with my morning routine. I'm really good
981
00:42:51.309 --> 00:42:54.289
with my evening routine so that I don't start the
982
00:42:54.309 --> 00:42:57.719
day by checking emails and kind of getting into pointless things.
983
00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:00.659
I really do my most difficult things in the morning.
984
00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:03.500
And I think those things are very, very helpful.
985
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:07.260
So what are your hard and fast kind of morning
986
00:43:07.300 --> 00:43:07.840
rules then?
987
00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:09.960
So in the morning, I have no email. So I
988
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:11.039
don't check emails at all.
989
00:43:11.179 --> 00:43:13.659
I get up, I have a breakfast and then I
990
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:16.400
go for a walk and then I'll start doing whatever
991
00:43:16.440 --> 00:43:19.769
I've prioritized for that day. So depending on the day,
992
00:43:19.789 --> 00:43:21.170
I might be up at six or I might be
993
00:43:21.190 --> 00:43:23.230
up at eight or I might be up at 10,
994
00:43:23.230 --> 00:43:25.239
depending on what I have to do. But it's really
995
00:43:25.260 --> 00:43:27.059
about getting that one thing done that I don't want
996
00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:28.469
to leave the day without.
997
00:43:29.190 --> 00:43:30.170
That eat the frog thing.
998
00:43:30.730 --> 00:43:31.570
It is eat the frog.
999
00:43:31.659 --> 00:43:32.159
It is, yeah.
1000
00:43:32.929 --> 00:43:35.690
And for me, that works. I met somebody recently who
1001
00:43:35.730 --> 00:43:36.989
says it has to be in the middle of the
1002
00:43:37.010 --> 00:43:38.809
day for them. So they like to do easy things first,
1003
00:43:39.179 --> 00:43:39.889
then the hard part.
1004
00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:41.320
Oh, interesting.
1005
00:43:41.619 --> 00:43:43.320
And I can see how that could work as well.
1006
00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:44.920
Yeah, I think for the eat the frog thing, I
1007
00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:47.079
think I should warm up with other things. But I
1008
00:43:47.139 --> 00:43:50.469
know actually in my heart of hearts that actually the
1009
00:43:50.510 --> 00:43:51.690
best thing to do is just to get it out
1010
00:43:51.710 --> 00:43:53.449
of the way because I don't need that much of
1011
00:43:53.489 --> 00:43:56.050
a warm up. That's just another form of procrastination for me.
1012
00:43:56.719 --> 00:43:58.860
And is your frog like the big things that will
1013
00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:01.519
really move you forward? Or is it like really horrible
1014
00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:02.659
things that you just hate doing?
1015
00:44:04.250 --> 00:44:05.949
I think for me, it's the things that will actually
1016
00:44:05.969 --> 00:44:07.739
move me forward. I try and think of the frog
1017
00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:11.059
as like the hard things, but that are in line
1018
00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:14.880
with my short, medium, long term goals. So it will be,
1019
00:44:15.099 --> 00:44:18.710
you know, it's not that like writing up something that
1020
00:44:18.829 --> 00:44:21.570
is just always a chore for me. It's actually doing
1021
00:44:21.610 --> 00:44:23.769
that thing that I know I just need to get done.
1022
00:44:23.869 --> 00:44:26.469
And once I've got that done, that's already kind of
1023
00:44:26.510 --> 00:44:27.150
an efficient day.
1024
00:44:28.690 --> 00:44:30.449
I think that's the right way to think about the
1025
00:44:30.489 --> 00:44:32.610
big thing. What's one thing that I want to do
1026
00:44:32.650 --> 00:44:35.110
today that will actually improve my life in the future,
1027
00:44:35.130 --> 00:44:37.559
rather than what are the things that other people have
1028
00:44:37.599 --> 00:44:39.679
told me that I have to do today, which is
1029
00:44:40.340 --> 00:44:41.349
often where folk end up.
1030
00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:44.860
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm pleased that we've ended up talking
1031
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:46.820
about work in the middle of our self-care section. I
1032
00:44:46.860 --> 00:44:49.320
think it goes to show a lot for us. I'm
1033
00:44:49.380 --> 00:44:51.699
going to take it back to self-care for the good
1034
00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:54.320
of both of us. So what does self-care look like
1035
00:44:54.340 --> 00:44:57.000
for you? And can you give me an example of
1036
00:44:57.039 --> 00:44:59.800
an ideal 10 out of 10 self-care situation?
1037
00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:02.130
I mean, going to a spa for a half a
1038
00:45:02.139 --> 00:45:03.389
day has to be for me a 10 out of
1039
00:45:03.389 --> 00:45:06.570
10 self-care situation because you're switched off and you're also
1040
00:45:06.610 --> 00:45:11.239
having a really nice time. So that's absolutely... what I
1041
00:45:11.260 --> 00:45:13.420
would choose. I mean, when we were able to fly,
1042
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:16.480
I would love to go away for like really short breaks,
1043
00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:20.460
which are the ultimate recharging, see something that I hadn't
1044
00:45:20.500 --> 00:45:23.239
seen before. And again, again, really switch off. And I
1045
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:24.769
think the key to me really, when it comes to
1046
00:45:24.789 --> 00:45:29.409
self-care is that switching off moment. And really electronics have
1047
00:45:29.449 --> 00:45:31.329
no place when I'm enjoying self-care.
1048
00:45:32.150 --> 00:45:34.730
So if we take that in a way that's COVID
1049
00:45:34.789 --> 00:45:40.190
friendly and budget friendly as well, creating that kind of
1050
00:45:40.789 --> 00:45:45.719
space where it's disconnected so from from internet from you
1051
00:45:45.739 --> 00:45:47.800
know maybe a change of scenery even at the local
1052
00:45:47.860 --> 00:45:50.599
if that's that's kind of the local park or wherever
1053
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:53.659
you can drive to or whatever um would you would
1054
00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:55.579
you say that's sort of it so the kind of
1055
00:45:55.739 --> 00:46:00.579
unplugged change of scenery um that type of situation yeah
1056
00:46:00.619 --> 00:46:01.039
and one of.
1057
00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:03.889
The questions you asked me in the And I think
1058
00:46:03.929 --> 00:46:07.360
both work for me, actually, if I want to recharge. Again,
1059
00:46:07.699 --> 00:46:10.320
turning off all electronics, choosing something to watch on Netflix
1060
00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:12.820
or choosing a book, a fiction book that I can
1061
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:16.460
kind of get observed in somebody else's story. Very budget
1062
00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:18.849
friendly and very time friendly as well. So you can
1063
00:46:18.889 --> 00:46:21.429
do that for one hour, two hours without messing up
1064
00:46:21.449 --> 00:46:22.349
your entire week.
1065
00:46:22.369 --> 00:46:26.409
OK, and then within that, what do you find hardest
1066
00:46:26.530 --> 00:46:28.869
about balancing work and personal life?
1067
00:46:30.130 --> 00:46:31.730
I think the problem is that when you find a
1068
00:46:31.750 --> 00:46:34.070
job that you really like, it just spills over into
1069
00:46:34.090 --> 00:46:36.769
your personal life. So it's very hard, you know, I
1070
00:46:36.809 --> 00:46:39.769
can turn off electronics. It's very hard for me to
1071
00:46:39.809 --> 00:46:42.940
stop a problem worming in my brain. And I think,
1072
00:46:42.980 --> 00:46:45.480
you know, the two sections of your book are really
1073
00:46:45.500 --> 00:46:48.000
interesting because of course, when you find your passion, you're
1074
00:46:48.019 --> 00:46:51.039
at the biggest danger of burnout. So, you know, people
1075
00:46:51.059 --> 00:46:52.980
burn out more when they're working hard at something they
1076
00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:55.199
love than when they're working hard at something that they dislike.
1077
00:46:56.449 --> 00:46:59.260
And I think that that's the tricky balance that I
1078
00:46:59.300 --> 00:47:02.199
have to have at the moment is really figuring out
1079
00:47:02.239 --> 00:47:04.480
a way to make sure that I really do tune
1080
00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:07.480
out work, even when I'm having those self-care moments.
1081
00:47:07.639 --> 00:47:10.190
Yeah, I mean, it's really a blessing and a curse,
1082
00:47:10.230 --> 00:47:12.809
isn't it? Because, you know, it's fantastic to enjoy that,
1083
00:47:12.889 --> 00:47:16.670
but it does have a way of taking over everything
1084
00:47:16.690 --> 00:47:19.070
you do. And then I guess within that as well,
1085
00:47:20.170 --> 00:47:23.969
our views of hard work as a um you know
1086
00:47:24.130 --> 00:47:25.670
the way we look at it is is a lot
1087
00:47:25.710 --> 00:47:27.909
of work and not a lot of rest do you
1088
00:47:27.929 --> 00:47:30.190
think we have a kind of warped view of what
1089
00:47:30.230 --> 00:47:33.110
hard work looks like in in regards to our treatment
1090
00:47:33.130 --> 00:47:35.639
of rest do you think that people think you never
1091
00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:38.639
sleep for example or you know when you're doing this
1092
00:47:38.679 --> 00:47:40.659
that and the other it's all about work work work
1093
00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:42.199
and not taking i mean i mean you've said you've
1094
00:47:42.219 --> 00:47:44.679
said you don't take weekends so so maybe not for
1095
00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:46.699
you um but in general do you think we have
1096
00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:49.239
this kind of warped view of kind of productivity versus
1097
00:47:49.300 --> 00:47:50.559
rest Absolutely.
1098
00:47:50.619 --> 00:47:51.920
So I mean, I think I think the first thing is,
1099
00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:54.480
I think sleep is very personal. And you should you
1100
00:47:54.500 --> 00:47:56.699
should know how many hours sleep that you need in
1101
00:47:56.820 --> 00:47:58.639
order to be fully recharged. So for me, it's seven.
1102
00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:01.000
So when I get seven hours sleep, I'm absolutely I'm
1103
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:03.179
absolutely fine. Anything less than that, I'm not and anything
1104
00:48:03.219 --> 00:48:05.639
more than that, it doesn't really give me anything extra.
1105
00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:08.679
And I think knowing that about yourself is really, really important.
1106
00:48:09.260 --> 00:48:10.840
But I think the idea that we have to be
1107
00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:12.980
working 24 hours a day in order to be productive
1108
00:48:13.400 --> 00:48:16.000
makes absolutely no sense. You know, if you really want
1109
00:48:16.059 --> 00:48:19.400
to kind of shape your future in spending your time
1110
00:48:19.500 --> 00:48:21.949
concentrated time on one or two things that can rock
1111
00:48:21.989 --> 00:48:24.809
the boat is going to pay much more dividends and
1112
00:48:24.829 --> 00:48:27.289
i think the hard part for people including myself is
1113
00:48:27.329 --> 00:48:29.690
figuring out what those things are when there's so much
1114
00:48:29.730 --> 00:48:32.710
information overload there's so many demands in our time what
1115
00:48:32.730 --> 00:48:35.050
should i be doing today that's really going to serve
1116
00:48:35.090 --> 00:48:37.719
me in the future becomes a hard question to answer
1117
00:48:37.780 --> 00:48:39.619
but i would encourage people to think about that question
1118
00:48:39.900 --> 00:48:41.550
um And not be like me, actually.
1119
00:48:41.570 --> 00:48:43.570
Take weekend, you know, and not.
1120
00:48:43.610 --> 00:48:45.849
Advice from Dr. Grace Lorden, do not be like me.
1121
00:48:45.849 --> 00:48:46.530
Do not be like me.
1122
00:48:46.889 --> 00:48:48.690
But the reason I'm in this trap is exactly for
1123
00:48:48.710 --> 00:48:50.449
the conundrum that I'm kind of bringing up is that,
1124
00:48:50.469 --> 00:48:52.219
you know, there's so many things that we could be
1125
00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:54.159
doing at any one time.
1126
00:48:54.219 --> 00:48:55.219
It's really exciting.
1127
00:48:55.579 --> 00:48:58.420
But I think the skill is identifying the couple of
1128
00:48:58.460 --> 00:48:59.579
things that will really move us forward.
1129
00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:03.750
Yeah, no, absolutely. I'd like to finish with three tips
1130
00:49:03.829 --> 00:49:06.179
that you... Not tips. Okay, no, we're not going to
1131
00:49:06.199 --> 00:49:08.400
do tips. I want you to share with us three
1132
00:49:08.440 --> 00:49:10.480
things that you want to work on in terms of
1133
00:49:10.539 --> 00:49:14.239
your relationship with work over the next three years. No,
1134
00:49:14.280 --> 00:49:15.730
three tips over the next one year.
1135
00:49:16.489 --> 00:49:19.590
I think firstly is saying no more often. So doing less,
1136
00:49:19.610 --> 00:49:19.929
but more often.
1137
00:49:20.139 --> 00:49:23.369
Quality things. The second has to be weekends. Now that
1138
00:49:23.389 --> 00:49:26.829
I've spoken about it in the podcast, the second has
1139
00:49:26.849 --> 00:49:28.489
to be weekends. And I will confess that when you
1140
00:49:28.550 --> 00:49:30.269
asked me, I was tempted to say that I do
1141
00:49:30.329 --> 00:49:30.989
take weekends.
1142
00:49:31.460 --> 00:49:34.260
I know, it's lovely to appear that way, isn't it?
1143
00:49:34.340 --> 00:49:37.269
It's really out of fashion, but it's a really bad habit.
1144
00:49:38.130 --> 00:49:40.469
And I think the third then is to really just
1145
00:49:40.809 --> 00:49:42.969
move forward the inclusion initiative in a way that's really
1146
00:49:42.989 --> 00:49:45.809
good for society. and figuring out how to make it
1147
00:49:45.869 --> 00:49:49.190
bigger without kind of making you know sacrificing some of
1148
00:49:49.210 --> 00:49:51.289
the things that we've built is the next challenge.
1149
00:49:51.030 --> 00:49:53.889
Yeah absolutely so so where can people find you and
1150
00:49:54.039 --> 00:49:56.239
and what if they're going to pick something up I'd
1151
00:49:56.280 --> 00:49:58.980
recommend the book um what should what should they pick up.
1152
00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:02.320
Yeah so I mean my website is gracelorden.com and my
1153
00:50:02.380 --> 00:50:05.179
book is think big and in think big there's really
1154
00:50:05.219 --> 00:50:07.730
lots of different insights to allow you to shape your
1155
00:50:07.769 --> 00:50:10.869
future And it all goes but the idea that everybody
1156
00:50:10.929 --> 00:50:14.219
is different. So there's a real encouragement to experiment on yourself,
1157
00:50:14.260 --> 00:50:16.760
which I'm hoping that people will find fun. But do
1158
00:50:16.780 --> 00:50:18.900
check out my website. And there's also lots of resources
1159
00:50:18.940 --> 00:50:20.619
for the book there if you decide not.
1160
00:50:20.539 --> 00:50:22.119
To pick it up. Yeah, well, one thing I loved
1161
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:23.519
about the book as well, as soon as I picked
1162
00:50:23.579 --> 00:50:25.300
it up, and I looked inside, I could just see
1163
00:50:25.380 --> 00:50:28.940
how kind of actionable and accessible it was. It wasn't
1164
00:50:28.980 --> 00:50:30.489
one of those things that just looks like a huge
1165
00:50:30.550 --> 00:50:32.929
block of text that you think like, oh, fuck, in
1166
00:50:32.949 --> 00:50:35.090
order to work out my career, I'm going to have
1167
00:50:35.110 --> 00:50:38.110
to like, you know, get like plow through all of this.
1168
00:50:38.130 --> 00:50:40.670
It's just set up in a way that it's digestible.
1169
00:50:41.380 --> 00:50:43.500
And that's what I think is, you know, so important
1170
00:50:43.539 --> 00:50:46.559
when it comes to making things like this accessible.
1171
00:50:46.940 --> 00:50:48.860
And I think that reaction that you had, you would
1172
00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:50.639
have had if the first draft had come out. So
1173
00:50:50.659 --> 00:50:52.699
for people who are listening, it shows that you can
1174
00:50:52.739 --> 00:50:54.940
learn in a very short period of time. how to
1175
00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:56.840
write a book, which is quite interesting.
1176
00:50:58.360 --> 00:51:00.929
Great. Oh, well, thank you so much for your time.
1177
00:51:00.989 --> 00:51:03.429
It has been fantastic to talk to you. And I've
1178
00:51:03.449 --> 00:51:05.750
really enjoyed getting to know more about your working habits
1179
00:51:06.389 --> 00:51:09.369
and especially the inclusion initiative and what you're doing there.
1180
00:51:09.409 --> 00:51:11.170
I think it is really, really fantastic.
1181
00:51:11.449 --> 00:51:14.050
Thanks, Grace. It's been an absolute pleasure. Lovely speaking to you.
1182
00:51:18.139 --> 00:51:20.300
Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of
1183
00:51:20.360 --> 00:51:23.480
Working Hard, Hardly Working. I have been Grace Beverley and
1184
00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:27.400
you can find me at Grace Beverley, L-E-Y, remember that one,
1185
00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:32.139
on Instagram and on LinkedIn, if you are that way inclined. Please,
1186
00:51:32.239 --> 00:51:34.400
after listening to this episode, it really, really helps if
1187
00:51:34.420 --> 00:51:36.960
you can leave a review, particularly on Apple Podcasts. That
1188
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:38.659
seems to be the best way to help out a
1189
00:51:38.699 --> 00:51:42.159
podcast at the moment. But please like the episode, subscribe,
1190
00:51:42.510 --> 00:51:46.190
share it, tag me, tag your friends, do whatever you
1191
00:51:46.230 --> 00:51:48.920
want to do. but spread the word and let me
1192
00:51:48.980 --> 00:51:51.050
know what you'd like to see next on any of
1193
00:51:51.110 --> 00:51:53.389
my social platforms. Just get in touch. I'd love to
1194
00:51:53.469 --> 00:51:56.449
talk about some more interesting things. So shoot your suggestions
1195
00:51:56.530 --> 00:51:58.260
my way and I will see you next time.
1196
00:52:03.269 --> 00:52:05.969
This is David and John from the David McWilliams podcast
1197
00:52:06.329 --> 00:52:08.889
brought to you by Monzo, Ireland's newest bank.
1198
00:52:09.110 --> 00:52:11.650
Now we've mentioned more than once about the need for
1199
00:52:11.690 --> 00:52:14.349
more choice in Irish banking. Well, now we have some.
1200
00:52:14.769 --> 00:52:17.860
Monzo is a bank built for Ireland with Irish I-bands
1201
00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:20.300
and a team here in Dublin. And there are no
1202
00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:22.920
monthly fees. Get a free Monzo account for yourself and
1203
00:52:22.940 --> 00:52:25.519
your kids. And if you run a business, open a
1204
00:52:25.579 --> 00:52:28.579
free business bank account too if you're an eligible sole
1205
00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:31.440
trader or limited company in Ireland. You can manage all
1206
00:52:31.480 --> 00:52:34.739
your Monzo accounts on one app. Monzo have also been
1207
00:52:34.780 --> 00:52:37.820
kind enough and clever enough to sponsor Kilkenomics in November,
1208
00:52:38.030 --> 00:52:39.409
for which we are very grateful.
1209
00:52:39.769 --> 00:52:42.510
A new era of banking is here. Sign up today
1210
00:52:42.630 --> 00:52:44.170
by downloading the Monzo app.
1211
00:52:44.510 --> 00:52:47.389
Monzo Bank Europe DAC, trading as Monzo, is regulated by
1212
00:52:47.409 --> 00:52:48.230
the Central Bank of Ireland.
1213
00:52:48.469 --> 00:52:49.719
Terms and conditions apply.
1214
00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:52.519
This is David from the David McWilliams podcast with a
1215
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:57.210
message from Vodafone Business Unified Comms with RingCentral. Running a
1216
00:52:57.269 --> 00:53:01.190
business usually involves juggling endless moving parts across all your
1217
00:53:01.230 --> 00:53:06.269
different apps and devices. Vodafone Unified Comms is here to help.
1218
00:53:07.030 --> 00:53:09.969
All business managers know that it is so important to
1219
00:53:10.030 --> 00:53:14.250
keep your whole business in sync. Vodafone Business Unified Comms
1220
00:53:14.349 --> 00:53:17.610
brings together all your comms needs, like phone calls and
1221
00:53:17.650 --> 00:53:22.639
video meetings, into a single platform. It connects owners, staff,
1222
00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:26.460
customers and suppliers in real time so you'll never miss
1223
00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:31.880
another call or message. Search Vodafone Unified Comms to find
1224
00:53:31.940 --> 00:53:32.280
out more.
1225
00:53:32.980 --> 00:53:36.300
The best broker partnerships aren't about having someone to place
1226
00:53:36.360 --> 00:53:39.579
business with. They're about having a partner who helps you
1227
00:53:39.639 --> 00:53:43.469
win more of it. Intact Insurance works closely with brokers
1228
00:53:43.530 --> 00:53:48.440
across Ireland in both commercial and personal lines. Making insurance
1229
00:53:48.679 --> 00:53:51.420
easier and giving you the backing to grow your client
1230
00:53:51.460 --> 00:53:55.780
base with confidence. Get in touch with Intact Insurance today.
1231
00:53:56.639 --> 00:54:00.590
Intact Insurance Ireland DAC. Trading as Intact Insurance is regulated
1232
00:54:00.630 --> 00:54:01.809
by the Central Bank of Ireland.