Building Zed: A Code Editor for Performance and Collaboration with Nathan Sobo

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What's going on, everybody? Welcome to WhiskeyWeb and whatnot, your favorite podcast about WhiskeyWeb and whatnot.
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With your host, Robbie the Wagner, and Charles William Carpenter, the third.
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Yeah, I like the other one about Whiskey and Web better actually.
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He's okay. It's a strong number two for me.
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Okay, all right, the other one. That's pretty great.
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And our guest today is Nathan. Is it Sobo? I should have asked before in.
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Yep, Sobo.
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Cool.
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Yeah, when my grandfather emigrated, he told him his name was S-D-A-B-O.
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It's like a kind of Romanian name, but he said Chabo.
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And they just wrote down whatever they heard, I guess.
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Yeah, that's simple. That sounds about right.
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Oh, you're coming in. We'll make the decisions for you.
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That sounds hard to spell.
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This is who you are.
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So we'll just change it.
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Cool. Yeah, do you want to give a quick intro into who you are and what you do?
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Yeah, so who am I?
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I mean, I am very much defined by my work.
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So what I do is very much who I am.
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Like it's a big part of my life.
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I'm one of those types of people.
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So I work on code editors that I have for a really long time.
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It started as like, oh, I want a little of this editor,
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a little of that editor and some of my own ideas.
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But none of these are like quite the thing I want.
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And that was what that was like 2006.
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And I haven't been working on editors the whole time,
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but I've been thinking about it and dreaming about it for most of that time.
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And then working on them quite a bit.
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I was one of two of the founding members of the team that built Adam at GitHub.
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And then didn't have it out of my system.
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And got to a point with Adam where I was like, we can't.
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This doesn't represent what I've learned doing this, if that makes sense.
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And I really wanted to precipitate the knowledge and the ideas.
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In a higher fidelity form.
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And so started said, which is what I'm doing now, a new code editor has written in rust.
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Our focus is on performance, minimal design.
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And then we've also built the entire tool around being multiplayer.
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So the idea being up the right now, it's really good at pulling people in in real time.
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And just talking through code or working on code together.
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But our aspirations are to go further and have like text based collaboration as well.
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Just built right into the editing experience.
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Interesting.
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Okay.
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Yeah, very cool.
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Yeah, we'll dig into some whiskey, but I've got some questions around that.
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Oh, shit.
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Should I hold off on?
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I mean, I started drinking the whiskey that these guys ship me before I even got on the phone with them.
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They're like, we really, yeah, usually pour on air.
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Can you do a quick purge, you know, a quick run to the restroom and purge.
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And so we can start over.
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I think it'll be fine.
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I'm only a few steps in.
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Yeah, I've been like, yeah, just working a lot.
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And then I had my kids.
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So it's like big context shift.
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And so an excuse to drink whiskey in the afternoon and call it work is like just what the doctor ordered right now.
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Yeah, right.
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Yeah.
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That's why we do this.
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You have just revealed the impotence of this entire podcast.
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It's second hand so that anyone listens to it at all.
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All of it is about that in context shift.
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So we can empathize with that.
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I also have two young kids.
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And you know, you got to go from one to the other somehow.
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Yeah.
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Or recovered from the process of doing so.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Because kind of where I'm at right now.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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So today we're having the red breast Kentucky owl edition, which is a I believe I can't confirm
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this, but I believe it is there 12 years.
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It's not Kentucky owl.
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Not Kentucky owl.
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Sorry.
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Kentucky.
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It's another brand is Kentucky.
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Kentucky owl is a brand.
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That's a brand.
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I haven't even had any yet.
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Exactly.
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There's a bird on the front.
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There's all these things.
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Red breast is not an owl though.
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Yeah.
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Kentucky oak edition.
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Thank you for the clarification.
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I cannot confirm whether it's a 12 year or not, but I think it starts with their 12 year.
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I still it.
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It's a 101 proof.
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Yeah.
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It's made from malted and unmalted barley and tripled distilled and copper pot stills,
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which is pretty normal for an Irish whiskey.
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And then it's finished for a minimum of four months and hand selected air dried American used
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oak barrels and whiskey advocate score of 96 was number two on the top 20 whiskeys of 2022.
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Okay.
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I don't know.
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Didn't know that, but hey, why not?
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No idea.
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Yeah.
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Oh, smells good.
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Kentucky oak.
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Yeah.
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So that means, uh, yeah, it has to be Kentucky oak is probably like a correlation to bourbon barrels.
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So it has to be in brand new American chart oak barrels.
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Bourbon has to be like federally regulated, not that Irish does, but do they ever make whiskey
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and in French oak or is that only wine?
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You can make whiskey in French oak.
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You can't make bourbon in French oak.
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Yeah.
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And it wouldn't be advised because it wouldn't put enough oak into it.
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Yeah.
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Because French is less oaky.
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Just a little too soft.
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Yeah.
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It's seen where it's been finished in like French oak barrels, though, that were used with something else.
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But never like the first time around.
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You can tell I'm more educated about wine than whiskey, although neither is like a particular expertise.
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But I enjoyed hearing that description.
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Triple distilled.
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Yeah.
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That's the typical Irish maneuver.
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Yeah.
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They'll keep running it through.
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Just trying to make it a bit cleaner and cleaner each time and reduce the heads and tails.
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That kind of thing.
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Yeah.
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So I'm smelling some new Nike shoes with popcorn in them.
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Wait.
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Are they Jordans or Bojaxons?
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Because I don't know.
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They're neither.
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Oh, but I see I smell the Bojaxon in the black color.
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You know, the Raiders color way.
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So.
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Whenever my girlfriend tastes like any red wine with like tannic structure, she's like.
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Tastes like a racers.
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I hate this.
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Oh, interesting.
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So.
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I love that though.
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I don't know.
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I like it though.
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No, I love that.
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Yeah.
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I love like, look, they're personalized descriptors, right?
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Because like this pseudo agreed upon vernacular across alcoholic beverages that reaches into things
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like tennis balls, fresh, open thing of tennis balls is a thing I saw in a documentary once.
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Like.
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That is a distinct smell.
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Right.
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It's good smell.
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Yeah.
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I think it's a good smell.
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I don't know if I want to drink that, but you know, I kind of like the smell.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Like a pencil shavings and weird stuff like that I've heard.
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I don't know.
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This one actually smells a little like vanilla extract to me.
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Like it's a little sweet, but like an essence of it and then you know if you just drink it.
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Oh, yeah.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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I get a lot of that up front.
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I like it.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think it's got a lot more flavor than most Irish I've had.
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Yeah.
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Irish can tend to be not as much as the like Japanese ones that were literally somehow like drinking
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water, but it's like it's more towards that where it's like not as complex and they want
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it to be smooth.
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But this has some more complexity.
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So I'm a fan of that.
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I get a little orange in the beginning like orangey orange rotten rind kind of thing and
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I get some cinnamon or something on the finish of it.
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So I can taste all of that now that you've mentioned that that's what I'm here for.
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Are you tasting the night keys?
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I'm just closing my eyes and tuning in.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And see if you can pick that up and once I've implanted into your brain.
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I'm definitely tasting alcohol.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, that's all right.
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And as long as it's pleasant, you know, that's kind of a yeah, half the best.
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It's awesome.
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So we give it a really distinct rating system.
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So it's one to eight tentacles, Robbie and I will like categorize whiskeys just because
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we've had so many, but you don't really need to.
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You can just say based on other whiskeys I've had one being like this is gross.
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I don't want it anymore eight being I don't want anything else.
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This is amazing.
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Obviously everything in between.
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So yeah.
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So when whiskey that was really memorable for me is GitHub had a barrel of four roses
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made, or I guess they bought they ordered a barrel and then they bottled it in the typical
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four roses bottle, but they made their own label cool.
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And so I don't know.
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I think it must have had a lot to do with just the emotional impact of getting that bottle
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and how cool that was, but I really liked that whiskey.
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So it was four roses, single barrel, but then I've had a bunch of other whiskeys that
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I still liked them.
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All right, but I will put this like a close second behind that one.
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Nice.
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So would you maybe give it a seven six tent seven tentacles?
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Yeah, yeah.
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But I don't know how to categorize it.
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It's drinkable.
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No, it can be all whiskies.
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When you think about whiskey.
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Yeah.
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Would you pick up like a few or if someone was to say, hey, pick your favorite, you probably
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would pick that sentimental bottle.
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And then they would say, okay, well, it's not a special occasion.
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Then what might you have?
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You might go this direction, right?
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So I think about it in that way.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, that sounds right.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, we just categorized because we've done 90 whiskeys now.
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Whoa.
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You're fine.
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Yeah.
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So, yeah, we have to differentiate a bit.
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Is this episode 90?
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It is.
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Well, no.
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You think we'd be better at this?
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I guess we're on a delay.
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So there's like ones that haven't been published yet.
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The next one to come out will be 90.
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This is 92.
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I think.
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Oh my gosh.
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93.
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I don't like that.
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I don't like that.
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So whiskey on the wall.
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Yeah.
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Well, yeah, I love that.
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I also love four rows of single barrel.
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That's like a regular go-to zipper and recommendation for folks like it's a strong bourbon.
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It's got a lot of spicy notes to it, a lot of roundness.
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I've been to the distillery a couple of times and then tasting and stuff.
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It's a beautiful place.
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Highly recommended.
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I'm from Kentucky originally too.
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So, you know, I had access.
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00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:42.560
My grandma's from there.
263
00:10:42.560 --> 00:10:43.800
She talked about it a lot.
264
00:10:43.800 --> 00:10:44.800
Yeah.
265
00:10:44.800 --> 00:10:46.160
I was in the North, you know.
266
00:10:46.160 --> 00:10:47.560
She was a hillbilly.
267
00:10:47.560 --> 00:10:48.800
Oh, see, I'm those.
268
00:10:48.800 --> 00:10:49.800
That's what she says.
269
00:10:49.800 --> 00:10:50.800
Yeah.
270
00:10:50.800 --> 00:10:51.800
Yeah.
271
00:10:51.800 --> 00:10:54.800
I know plenty of hillbillies, but I lived in the North right on the river actually.
272
00:10:54.800 --> 00:10:56.320
Ohio River across from Cincinnati.
273
00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:00.040
So, it's way more urban, but I had connections to both sides.
274
00:11:00.040 --> 00:11:01.040
Yeah.
275
00:11:01.040 --> 00:11:02.520
Isn't the river just made of chili?
276
00:11:02.520 --> 00:11:03.520
I wish.
277
00:11:03.520 --> 00:11:06.520
I'm going to go swim in the river of Cincinnati, Chile.
278
00:11:06.520 --> 00:11:07.520
Yeah.
279
00:11:07.520 --> 00:11:09.040
That's for another episode, I suppose.
280
00:11:09.040 --> 00:11:10.440
I'm going to get to the business, Robbie.
281
00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:11.440
Okay.
282
00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:12.440
Stop trying to distract me.
283
00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:16.080
So, yeah, for me, in terms of Irish whiskeys, I've had a couple of other red breasts that
284
00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.560
I really love on their own though.
285
00:11:18.560 --> 00:11:21.120
The 15 is a great, great one.
286
00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:26.440
There's a tealing rum barrel finished one that I really enjoyed too, would recommend.
287
00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:27.960
A rum barrel.
288
00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:28.960
Rum barrel finished.
289
00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.560
So, rum was previously fermented in the barrel?
290
00:11:31.560 --> 00:11:32.560
Yeah.
291
00:11:32.920 --> 00:11:33.920
That's cool.
292
00:11:33.920 --> 00:11:34.920
Yeah.
293
00:11:34.920 --> 00:11:38.400
So, they would age rum in their first and they used it the finish for a few weeks or a couple
294
00:11:38.400 --> 00:11:39.400
of months.
295
00:11:39.400 --> 00:11:40.400
Oh man, it's good.
296
00:11:40.400 --> 00:11:42.320
It's really interesting.
297
00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:45.840
So, given those, those would be a little higher for me.
298
00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:46.840
I'm going to give this a six.
299
00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:48.640
I enjoy it though, quite a bit.
300
00:11:48.640 --> 00:11:52.240
I might even try to figure out how to put a little water in here to open it up some more,
301
00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:54.000
but yeah, this is an easy drinker.
302
00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:55.000
It's got good flavor.
303
00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:56.000
It's not.
304
00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:57.000
I'm having it on ice.
305
00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:00.640
I don't know if that's sacrilege, but probably is.
306
00:12:00.640 --> 00:12:01.640
That's fun.
307
00:12:01.640 --> 00:12:02.640
It's only for Robbie.
308
00:12:02.640 --> 00:12:03.640
Yeah.
309
00:12:03.640 --> 00:12:04.640
Robbie knows better.
310
00:12:04.640 --> 00:12:07.920
He used to give me tons of shit for doing it before, because like the first at least
311
00:12:07.920 --> 00:12:12.560
10 episodes, I would always did ice and chuckle comment on it every single time and be like,
312
00:12:12.560 --> 00:12:13.560
you can't do that.
313
00:12:13.560 --> 00:12:15.760
And I'd be like, okay, so I'm not going to do it anymore.
314
00:12:15.760 --> 00:12:18.800
But yeah, it's fine to do whatever, however you like it.
315
00:12:18.800 --> 00:12:22.520
I just said taste it first and then add your ice.
316
00:12:22.520 --> 00:12:23.520
That's what I said.
317
00:12:23.520 --> 00:12:25.920
Taste it first and then add your ice, you know?
318
00:12:25.920 --> 00:12:26.920
That's fair.
319
00:12:26.920 --> 00:12:29.960
Figure out how they expected it to taste out of the bottle.
320
00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:30.960
Right.
321
00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:31.960
Okay.
322
00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:32.960
I'm going to have it the way I like.
323
00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:33.960
I mean, yeah.
324
00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:39.480
I've given this advice a few times that I was given on a distillery tour once.
325
00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:43.960
Old man doing the tour, super nice, whatever else, but he's like the best whiskey is the one
326
00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:44.960
you like.
327
00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:45.960
Is it $20?
328
00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:46.960
Is it $300?
329
00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:47.960
Whatever.
330
00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:48.960
Is it on ice?
331
00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:50.160
Is it like, it's your stuff.
332
00:12:50.160 --> 00:12:54.680
This isn't, you know, some sort of a fissionado parade here.
333
00:12:54.680 --> 00:12:56.920
Like, have it how you enjoy it.
334
00:12:56.920 --> 00:12:58.440
That's the whole point in the end.
335
00:12:58.440 --> 00:12:59.440
Yeah.
336
00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:02.680
As you have it more, what you'll enjoy will probably change.
337
00:13:02.680 --> 00:13:07.760
That happened with me with wine, which I am more familiar with drinking, you know, but
338
00:13:07.760 --> 00:13:13.080
I was found at kind of pretentious that whole world, but it feels less pretentious as
339
00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:17.440
I drink it more, I guess, and realize these people are like referencing something that
340
00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:18.440
is a reality.
341
00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:19.440
Yeah.
342
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:20.440
Yeah.
343
00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:22.680
It's not like they're like totally making it up, but does it feel like people can kind
344
00:13:22.680 --> 00:13:25.440
of get a little pretentious sometimes around this kind of thing?
345
00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:26.440
Yeah.
346
00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:27.440
I run anything like that.
347
00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:28.440
I think they can.
348
00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:32.080
I think that when you can go into spending hundreds and thousands of dollars on a bottle
349
00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:37.080
and go down that kind of path of things, right, like that's one area of it, and you can
350
00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:38.080
do that in whiskey, too.
351
00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:42.400
So, you know, there's anywhere you want to spend money, commerce exists in the world.
352
00:13:42.400 --> 00:13:48.400
But conversely, if you just want to have some enjoyable beverage, alcoholic beverage or
353
00:13:48.400 --> 00:13:53.040
not or whatever, like they'll be approachable things at various price points.
354
00:13:53.040 --> 00:13:57.000
I think you can get a $15 to $20 bottle of wine that is excellent.
355
00:13:57.000 --> 00:13:58.000
For sure.
356
00:13:58.000 --> 00:13:59.000
I've done it before.
357
00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:00.000
Yep.
358
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:01.000
Especially in Italy.
359
00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:02.000
Oh, yeah.
360
00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:03.000
Oh.
361
00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:04.000
So good in Italy.
362
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:05.000
Oh, man.
363
00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:06.000
We'll come back to that.
364
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.000
We're going to have to come back to this.
365
00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:08.000
I'm going to give this a seven.
366
00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:09.000
I think it's pretty good.
367
00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:10.000
Yep.
368
00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:11.000
All the reasons you said.
369
00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:12.000
Excellent.
370
00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:13.000
I don't really have anything to add.
371
00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:14.000
All right.
372
00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:17.000
We'll talk a little tech before we have too much.
373
00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:19.000
I could talk tech in any state just to be clear.
374
00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:20.000
We'll see.
375
00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:23.000
You can rate my on one to eight tentacles tech talk.
376
00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:24.000
Oh, I love it.
377
00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:25.000
All right.
378
00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:26.000
At the end.
379
00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:27.000
All right.
380
00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:28.000
I guess we'll do this.
381
00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:29.000
So tell us about Zed.
382
00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:32.000
Like what made you want to make a new editor?
383
00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:33.000
How's it different?
384
00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:38.000
So big part of Zed was born out of like frustration with web technology.
385
00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:41.000
That was like one big pillar of it.
386
00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:48.000
Where I mean, I don't know people know this, but we created electron to make Adam.
387
00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.000
That's why it's called electron because it was like the shell of Adam.
388
00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:55.000
And back then it was like this cool.
389
00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:59.000
Like what we wanted to do is create like the modern Emax.
390
00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:03.000
And so the cool thing about Emax is like everything's written in Emax list,
391
00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:07.000
but it has this tiny core that's written in C.
392
00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:11.000
But then you can like extend the editor while the editor is running.
393
00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:15.000
And we got really inspired about that and felt like, okay.
394
00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:18.000
To build the modern Emax environment.
395
00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:23.000
Like you need to use JavaScript and web technologies and the DOM.
396
00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:29.000
And like it's this incredibly malleable environment where you can just like throw on some CSS.
397
00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:31.000
Screwed nodes.
398
00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:35.000
And like that felt like the way to do modern Emax.
399
00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:41.000
The funny thing is like there was this joke about Emax eight megs and constantly swapping.
400
00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:47.000
Which you can see that joke or originated at a time when eight megs was a lot of memory.
401
00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:55.000
But the point is like that approach consumed a lot of resources at least for a particular point in time.
402
00:15:55.000 --> 00:16:05.000
And so the downsides of writing an editor in WebTech was that the browser foundation chromium basically.
403
00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:13.000
Like it's a pretty serious like piece of overhead to carry to deliver a very particular experience.
404
00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:17.000
So like what the web excels at is being very broad.
405
00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:21.000
You could do so many different things and nobody has to install it.
406
00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:22.000
It just works.
407
00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:26.000
But like, okay, when you're building a desktop app in WebTech.
408
00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:31.000
Then nobody has to install it strength isn't as high, although it cross platforms.
409
00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:33.000
Obviously awesome.
410
00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:39.000
And then what we realized was like even though we really wanted to let people go broad.
411
00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:44.000
Actually, like a code editor is a pretty like particular experience.
412
00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:47.000
It's a very focused type thing.
413
00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:52.000
And so I don't know at some point in Adam, I just was running up against these constraints.
414
00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:57.000
Like I look at the profiler in the Chrome Dev tools and just be like, where is the time going?
415
00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:00.000
It's just like slipping through my fingers.
416
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:04.000
Like I can't find any low hanging fruit to pick anymore.
417
00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.000
And it's still not as fast as I want it to be.
418
00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:10.000
And then I'm pausing and collecting garbage at random times.
419
00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:12.000
I don't like that.
420
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:17.000
And so at some point, I just kind of threw up my hands and said like, I have to start over.
421
00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:24.000
And so I started this project called X-ray because I didn't really think it was appropriate for me to call Adam 2.0.
422
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.000
Like that would have authored Adam.
423
00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.000
And like nobody had really approved that.
424
00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:34.000
But it was kind of this little experimental project of like, let's learn.
425
00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:38.000
Well, let's see what can we do with rust?
426
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:43.000
How much better of an editor can we build?
427
00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:47.000
And of course, one of the first things that we came to contend with is like,
428
00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:52.000
well, I mean, the first thing I contended with is that the learning curve for rust was,
429
00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:59.000
yeah, I describe it as like a vertical cliff with like snakes nesting in the rocks,
430
00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:02.000
biting me as I ascended it.
431
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:07.000
And there were times when I'm like, can you even build anything fucking useful with this language?
432
00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:12.000
Like it's so like the constraints of the borrowed checker and the ownership model and everything.
433
00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:18.000
We're such a bitch at first, especially for trying to build a UI.
434
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:24.000
But when we finally kind of like learned to think like the borrowed checker and like,
435
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:30.000
learned how rust wanted us to do stuff and stop trying to take things we've learned
436
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:35.000
from writing in garbage collected memory managed languages and kind of embraced it,
437
00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:37.000
which involves some innovation.
438
00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:45.000
I think in some new, at least for us, we didn't see any ready-made formulas for building a UI in rust.
439
00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:50.000
But as soon as we kind of figured it out, I felt like we had ascended the cliff and we were standing at the top
440
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:56.000
just like looking out over the promised land kind of like it was just like, holy shit.
441
00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:58.000
This is an absolute super weapon.
442
00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:00.000
So that was one big piece.
443
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:06.000
And then the other big piece was just kind of finishing the collaborative dimension that I've always intended to be an Adam.
444
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:09.000
And we just never really got around to it.
445
00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:15.000
Yeah, to make an editor that acknowledges that you're working with other people and you got to talk to them.
446
00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:21.000
You probably need to talk to them about code and you probably need to have conversations that are more nuanced
447
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:27.000
than are really possible by like hanging comments off of version control artifacts.
448
00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:28.000
Oh, for sure.
449
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:31.000
You need your conversation to be embedded in the code.
450
00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:32.000
So that's the other big piece.
451
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:38.000
Yeah, and I think in the heavily remote collaborative world of tech where we're at right now,
452
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:43.000
like that kind of tool is pretty useful instead of trying to combine some other things.
453
00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:46.000
I mean, I know VS Code has some kind of collaborative plug-in.
454
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:47.000
They do.
455
00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:49.000
Some things like tuple and screen.
456
00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:51.000
I think screen is still around.
457
00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:52.000
I don't know.
458
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.000
It was pop and then it was screen then was pop or something.
459
00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:55.000
Screen hero, you mean?
460
00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:57.000
That was what Slack acquired.
461
00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:58.000
Oh, yeah, back in the day.
462
00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:01.000
I was actually off there landing page for a little while, screen hero.
463
00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:03.000
That guy started a new one though.
464
00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.000
He like, remember, he started a pop.
465
00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:06.000
Yeah, pop.
466
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.000
Yeah, I feel like it was screened first and then it came pop and he's like,
467
00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:11.000
yeah, I'm doing this again because they buried it.
468
00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:12.000
Oh, was it called screen first?
469
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:13.000
It was called screen loss.
470
00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:17.000
It came pop and he was like, yeah, I'm doing this again because they acquired and buried it and whatever else.
471
00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:20.000
So yeah, I mean, collaborative tools are highly necessary.
472
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:24.000
I want to regress back to two different things that you mentioned.
473
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:29.000
First of all, around the decision to do something, you know, just clean slate rust.
474
00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:33.000
Did you make that decision before or after your time at work?
475
00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:37.000
I made that decision well before my time at work, yeah.
476
00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:38.000
Okay.
477
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:43.000
Yeah, a lot of work basically is Zed in a lot of ways.
478
00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:45.000
It's like an early prototype of Zed.
479
00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:52.000
And when I was leaving GitHub, I, I don't know, I never raised money.
480
00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:58.000
I had never contemplated starting a company and I didn't thinking about it a lot.
481
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:01.000
But I don't know, I was reticent.
482
00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:05.000
And so when somebody was like, oh, we want to build this terminal.
483
00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:06.000
We want to do it this.
484
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:10.000
And so at that point, they talked to me, they were using electron.
485
00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:12.000
And I was like, no, no, no, no.
486
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:14.000
I don't think you should use electron.
487
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:15.000
I think you should use rust.
488
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:16.000
We had the UI framework.
489
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:18.000
We had an editor.
490
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:20.000
There were some issues.
491
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:22.000
But yeah, we had the foundations.
492
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:28.000
And then I joined and my plan was I was going to kind of head engineering there.
493
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:30.000
So I licensed them that tech.
494
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:31.000
They're like, well, I don't know.
495
00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:35.000
I'm not going to join a company and not do it the way I think it should be done.
496
00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:37.000
And I had all that code there.
497
00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:38.000
So that's what we did.
498
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:42.000
And then I realized like three months and I want to do my own thing.
499
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:43.000
Like, I don't know.
500
00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:45.000
I've been at GitHub for nine years.
501
00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:50.000
And so anyway, Bitcoin was like going crazy.
502
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:52.000
And everything was going crazy.
503
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:57.000
And I'm like, OK, like, I've got enough savings that I can kind of just do this.
504
00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:00.000
Like, I don't know where this is going to go.
505
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.000
It's probably going to be hard to raise money.
506
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:06.000
But I'm going to just quit and do this and see what happens.
507
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:09.000
And I ran money raising like two weeks.
508
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:11.000
But I didn't know that was going to happen.
509
00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:12.000
Yeah.
510
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:14.000
Like, I don't know.
511
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:16.000
And in retrospect, maybe I shouldn't know.
512
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:17.000
I'm like, oh, duh.
513
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:20.000
But it's not where my head was at.
514
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:23.000
I had assumed that raising capital was like, I don't know.
515
00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:28.000
You were like walking up and down San Hill Road, you know,
516
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:30.000
crying for three months.
517
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:31.000
I don't know.
518
00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:32.000
That's what I envisioned it.
519
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.000
And it was really easy.
520
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:38.000
At least in spring of 2021 when like everyone was just throwing money into the sky.
521
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.000
When money was still free.
522
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:41.000
Yeah.
523
00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:45.000
I'm sure many people can will have that experience that you were expecting.
524
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:48.000
So, you know, sometimes timing luck.
525
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.000
The right thing at the right time has a lot to do with it.
526
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:53.000
But good for you that you didn't have to go through that.
527
00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:55.000
I'm glad you brought up Bitcoin.
528
00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:58.000
I thought I was digging something up because a lot of your old tweets were around Bitcoin and stuff.
529
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.000
And I was like, oh, one of are you still into that?
530
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.000
But we'll get there eventually.
531
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:07.000
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense where like that could inform your next steps.
532
00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:10.000
Kind of like looked into another thing when somewhere else.
533
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:13.000
I was curious where the influence was there around warp.
534
00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:17.000
You know, we talked to Zach months ago or something that maybe last year.
535
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:20.000
But yeah, Russ is the right choice for a lot of things.
536
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.000
So that's cool.
537
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:23.000
Definitely for a tool like this.
538
00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:24.000
Yeah.
539
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:28.000
Electron though lives in breeds all kinds of applications, right?
540
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:30.000
You know, it tons of stuff there.
541
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:31.000
Absolutely.
542
00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:33.000
So yeah, you had no idea where that was going to be.
543
00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:37.000
We built a thing in electron, you know, open source color management app or whatever else.
544
00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:39.000
So we've had some experience there.
545
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:40.000
Yeah.
546
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:41.000
We built apps for Linux.
547
00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:43.000
Like no one's doing this.
548
00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:44.000
Yeah.
549
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:45.000
Yeah.
550
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:50.000
I mean, to really do anything else is kind of what we're doing.
551
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.000
And like I was afraid to do what we're doing.
552
00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:59.000
Even when we started X ray, the plan was we're going to do the UI and electron.
553
00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:04.000
And then when we kind of rebooted it X ray after, you know, at Microsoft acquired GitHub.
554
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:07.000
And like I went on maternity leave for a while.
555
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:10.000
And then when we came back, it was kind of like, you can't work on this anymore.
556
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:16.000
And so I stopped it and we started.
557
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:18.000
Well, for a while, I tried to let it go.
558
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:24.000
But I just couldn't get excited about doing anything else because anytime I would start writing software again, I'd be an editor.
559
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:27.000
I didn't love and I'm like back to the same freaking problem.
560
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:28.000
It's staring me in the face.
561
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:29.000
Yeah.
562
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:31.000
Like I can't get away from this.
563
00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:38.000
So anyway, we tried to use electron even for a little bit after we rebooted X ray and like started over on our own time.
564
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:44.000
And it would just feel like we worked so hard to get this performance in the rust piece.
565
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:54.000
And then we would just kind of piss it away on abstractions that make a lot of sense when you're looking to be very cross platform move fast, be malleable.
566
00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:58.000
But they didn't matter to us enough.
567
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:06.000
Like we were committed to building an editor and like I didn't care if I had to paint the text on the screen exactly where I wanted it.
568
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:08.000
Like none of those things mattered to me.
569
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:13.000
All that matter was speed, but I was like, I can't build a UI framework like that's crazy.
570
00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:14.000
I can't do that.
571
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:21.000
So I looked at flutter, but I'm just like, this isn't at the time the desktop offering felt really like experimental.
572
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:26.000
And it was dark, which was like, do I even I want to write rust at that point?
573
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:28.000
I was like really excited about rust.
574
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:37.000
And so little by little, like the electron, you know, you still like spit JSON at electron.
575
00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:41.000
And then it morphed the spitting data at the GPU.
576
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:42.000
Interesting.
577
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:43.000
Okay.
578
00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:52.000
I can see like why force something that isn't giving you your intended output, which sounds like something that's fast as possible and trying to make those connections.
579
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:56.000
So it's like, oh, well, I'm sacrificing something here. So why not just stay at the source.
580
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:57.000
Yeah, exactly.
581
00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:07.000
So like when we lay out, or you know, when we get to get like pixels on the screen, we have an element tree, which is very much inspired by react.
582
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:11.000
Where there's just this tree of elements that we want to render.
583
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:14.000
The cool thing is that you can program your own element.
584
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:17.000
So be as if you could write div.
585
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:20.000
And then you write layout and you write paint.
586
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:24.000
And so you're controlling in this very imperative way.
587
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:27.000
How the element decides to take up space.
588
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:32.000
And then exactly how the element and whatever data is associated with it.
589
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:37.000
So maps to geometry in this like scene object.
590
00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:42.000
That's ultimately what our shaders consume to render pixels on the screen.
591
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:47.000
And so you have this very like low level imperative control over exactly how things are laid out and painted.
592
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:50.000
But then we also have stuff like flex.
593
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:53.000
And this is all a group from platter.
594
00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:57.000
But you know, then it's evolved in its own direction. So anyway.
595
00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:01.000
We're like dipping a virtual DOM against the previous virtual DOM.
596
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:05.000
And then that's computing like updates to a document object model.
597
00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:07.000
What we do is like we lay it out.
598
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:09.000
And then we just paint it.
599
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:15.000
And it turns out that like on even on an integrated GPU on a modern machine.
600
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:20.000
You could easily repaint the entire window with extremely little latency.
601
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:25.000
And we could do more sophisticated approaches that only invalidate part of the window buffer, etc.
602
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:28.000
Like we're not even doing that yet on that be more power efficient.
603
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:38.000
But like we're well well below the time needed to deliver the frame rate required to like saturate the capabilities of the hardware of the display.
604
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:44.000
Anyway, that's what you get out of kind of cutting out the bullshit and just going straight to what you want.
605
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:46.000
But it doesn't it comes out of cost.
606
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:51.000
Obviously like it took us a while and we're still investing in that.
607
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:53.000
So it's been a journey.
608
00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:55.000
Yeah, for sure.
609
00:27:55.000 --> 00:28:01.000
So like, you know, obviously all of this performance is like top of mind for everything.
610
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:08.000
I'm wondering, you know, what the future plans are for like, will there be a plugin system or anything like that?
611
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:12.000
And you know, how does that affect performance as you start to layer things on?
612
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:18.000
Yeah, it's a great question and performance is a big question as we consider plugins.
613
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:25.000
So on our roadmap for kind of the coming months is to make languages extensible.
614
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:31.000
So that's like only a baby step toward a plugin system, but it will kind of lay down some infrastructure for us.
615
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:37.000
So the pieces of that is tree setters one, which is our parsing framework, which is a separate conversation.
616
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:41.000
But to actually interface to the language server.
617
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:48.000
We have like a tiny adapter trade object in Ross that's got, you know, a handful of methods around.
618
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:52.000
How do you like check for updates to the language server?
619
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:54.000
How do you download a new one? How do you start it?
620
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:57.000
We clean up some data coming out of the language server.
621
00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:01.000
And that right now is like compiled into the binary, right?
622
00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:07.000
So we have support for raw standardizer and the Python language server type script, etc.
623
00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:12.000
That is the first thing that we want to make pluggable in WebAssembly.
624
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:16.000
Because it's just a really, really simple teeny little piece place to start.
625
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:24.000
But what it will drive out is what is running wasm inside of that look like what's the packaging format going to look like?
626
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.000
How are these things distributed?
627
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:34.000
Figuring that all out will be like a first step and then doing tree sitter, which is also going to be organized around wasm.
628
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:39.000
I think the plan right now is like tree sitter is compiled.
629
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:50.000
Basically, it's like what tree sitter's job is to do is to take like a JSON description of a language grammar and spit out a C program that parses it.
630
00:29:50.000 --> 00:30:03.000
But the cool thing is max has come up with this way of basically taking the parse table, which is just like a giant bunch of C like literals and copy it out of a wasm binary.
631
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:13.000
Directly into our native heap and then using that to drive the parser on like our native side, like not through WebAssembly.
632
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:18.000
But then we call back into the wasm binary to do lexical scanning.
633
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:23.000
Because you can imagine that like lexical scanning is like kind of true and complete.
634
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:26.000
It's the arbitrary function like in Python.
635
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:34.000
You need to like figure out the indentation level and like kind of insert closing brackets when the indentation level drops.
636
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:40.000
And in Ruby, God only knows what you do in the freaking parser.
637
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:42.000
So that's the beginning of it.
638
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:53.000
But WebAssembly, you know, then from there, I'm hoping that we can start to add more surface area and figure out, okay, now that we've got the basics, like you could at least bring your own language.
639
00:30:53.000 --> 00:31:06.000
What else do people want to do? What's kind of the intersection of what's really stable API wise inside the product, what would be easy to open up an API to that we're not going to have to change any time soon.
640
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:12.000
And what do people want and try to find the then diagram of those two things and then just grow from there.
641
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:14.000
Yeah, so that's the plan.
642
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:30.000
Okay, that's essentially what I groked from your hacker news posts when you were kind of announcing all of this and what would be the API for composability and flexibility or whatever over time and how maybe that was some of the issues that you had with Adam.
643
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:35.000
It was a little kind of too open and so the limited you as you were working on it.
644
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:53.000
You're trying to think of it from the other side of it, like that's what I cleaned from that. So when you describing this kind of like makes a whole whole lot of sense, like you're very pursuant upon the performance aspect and then obviously the ability to collaborate in this tool and then extension is kind of something else.
645
00:31:53.000 --> 00:32:01.000
But I mean, one thing I want to say around extensions like is I do like giving people power.
646
00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:11.000
But what I've learned from Adam is that if you just give people power with no responsibilities, you know, people are going to abuse that they don't care they're busy.
647
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:19.000
They're in a hurry. It doesn't matter to them. It works for them. And then they publish extensions that degrade the experience.
648
00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:27.000
And then once you've got a bunch of extensions installed like, okay, which is the extension that's causing you to have a slow experience in some corners.
649
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:36.000
You don't care. It's just the thing feels slow and that's your experience. And so like ultimately we're responsible for the users experience.
650
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:41.000
And that means like we got to transfer some of that responsibility onto the package offers.
651
00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:50.000
And so I think if we put you on the main thread, which I'm not opposed to, we're going to give you a deadline, like you need to respond.
652
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:53.000
And we'll see how this goes over, but I want to try it.
653
00:32:53.000 --> 00:33:02.000
Like you need to be done in like 200 microseconds or whatever your budget is and maybe the user could choose a budget or I don't know.
654
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:13.000
So we're like, we just disable your extension of something until the user's got to go click a button and like turn it back on next to the like open issue button.
655
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:16.000
So that we're really defending the user.
656
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:19.000
And then if you set the bar high, I think people will need it.
657
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:23.000
I think if you quote the Spider-Man meme, as you almost did.
658
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:30.000
With great power comes great responsibility. Yeah, exactly. Uncle Ben, he knew what was going on.
659
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:33.000
Not the right guy, the other one. Spider-Man.
660
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:38.000
Isn't it just bins now? Or like how I don't know? It's not Uncle Ben anymore or something. I think.
661
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:42.000
I don't know. I don't mind a lot of rice. I buy rice like Costco.
662
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:48.000
Exactly. I buy Kirkland rice. I don't know. I don't have a Costco membership. Can't do it.
663
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:53.000
Oh, man. Because it's too far, right? Because you live on a farm. Well, everything's too far. Yeah.
664
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:57.000
Oh, yeah, everything. Grow your own rice.
665
00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:00.000
Exactly. I should. I should.
666
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:05.000
It's got rice patties out in Virginia. I don't know if that's the same like climate or whatever.
667
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:11.000
And then here I'll I'll go further down the spiral and really throw us off. I just was reminded like the other day.
668
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:18.000
So on the weekends, when I'm doing house chores like outside or whatever, when it's not 115 degrees, I wear overalls.
669
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:21.000
I have some overalls. It's like grandpa, whatever else. Just.
670
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:23.000
Well, I'm going to need a picture of this.
671
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:29.000
Well, we'll see. Because you'll publish it. So I'll show you. I'm not giving you any assets.
672
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:34.000
Just tweeted at me. So I wear these overall. I think overalls are cool too. So whatever.
673
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:40.000
Wear my overalls and my daughter now recently every time I put them on, she's like, Daddy, that's wrong. That's for farm.
674
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:46.000
Because she has like a little farm place that and the farmer is wearing overalls. She's like, no, that's wrong.
675
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:51.000
I'm like, what do you mean? It's, you know, I'm going to go work in the garden or wherever else.
676
00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:53.000
She's like, no, that's for farm.
677
00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:58.000
She's not wrong. She's four. She just turned four last week. Okay. Perfect.
678
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:06.000
Yes. So it's great. When the first time she did it, like a couple of months ago, I lost it. But anyway, I digress.
679
00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:12.000
Where were we before that? Yeah. Awesome. And plugins. Collaborated.
680
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:24.000
Yes. Extensibility and controlling certain, like having a responsibility to the users, having an API that maybe has limits, but prioritizing collaboration and speed.
681
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:32.000
Absolutely. But I mean, extensibility for a long time was something I was just like, I don't even want to think about that right now.
682
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:38.000
Like we've got to get the core experience good. Right. So another thing I learned with Adam is like, cool.
683
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:43.000
You want to put all your investment into extensibility and like it takes a lot of time.
684
00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:55.000
And after you think all that investment in, now you got to have other people build on top of what you've done to produce the thing that the user actually ultimately experiences.
685
00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:00.000
And you know, ultimately people did do that with Adam, but like it's just like, ugh.
686
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:06.000
I don't know. I had a team at Facebook building developer tools for all of Facebook that were very particular to their needs.
687
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:12.000
And like this team's like five times the size of the Adam team. Like help.
688
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:21.000
Yeah. So I don't know. I just really wanted to like focus on, let's have a really good like out of the box experience. And we're getting there.
689
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:28.000
Like we still have a way to go, but now I'm starting to think more about extensibility because like one of the biggest feedback is like, can you support you?
690
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:34.000
Can you support it? Spelt. Can you support PHP? Like it just goes on and on.
691
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:39.000
And I don't know. It's funny because the received wisdom is like, you got to focus.
692
00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:44.000
But like, I don't know what I'm hearing is all these people who want to use Z.
693
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:53.000
We don't support them right now. I and like we use tree cider. We use the language server protocol, both are totally language agnostic.
694
00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:59.000
So anyway, we're doing it. We're going to make languages extensible. I think it makes sense.
695
00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:05.000
I'm sure you'll get there at some point. And I maybe even like just chip in a way one at a time or something big community.
696
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:12.000
Oh, we're doing it now. Yeah, yeah, maybe building the extensibility now. Yeah, support rust. Yeah, you know, there you go.
697
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:18.000
There's your start. You're built in rust support rust. Go from there. That's built in rust analyzer. Nice.
698
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:29.000
And I think we're pretty good at rust. Yeah, I mean, I think obviously when you're bootstrapping and building a company, it's like, you know, you got to support the bigger things first.
699
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:35.000
And like, I mean, it's felt is getting bigger view. I guess I don't know. I don't know if you was growing or not.
700
00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:42.000
But like, the problem I have is I use Ember and no one uses Ember. So like, nothing supports Ember.
701
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:50.000
So like, I'm always screwed. But like, yeah, prioritizing who gets what is like you almost have to make it a community thing because
702
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:59.000
there's always going to be an a new framework that comes out that's like, oh, hot new thing.js. And like, oh, you don't support it already. Like, what are you doing?
703
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:03.000
Like, okay, well, we'll make it extensible so that you can do that. Like, yeah.
704
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:10.000
Yeah. And I don't know. I mean, who knows? I mean, the one thing I am learning about all this is like to me, the optimal path.
705
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:21.000
Like, if I look for 20 miles in any direction, I see shit that would be a really good idea to add does that finding the optimal path through that is daunting.
706
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:32.000
And I don't think it's really knowable if that makes sense. Like, how, how would I even look back and assess, but we'll see ultimately, like, we'll sink the time into doing it.
707
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:44.000
But I don't know. We just it's hard to ignore from so many people that they want extensibility and they want all these languages supported and hear that over and over and over again and not respond to it.
708
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:45.000
Right. Right.
709
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:57.000
So it's almost like squeaky wheel syndrome though. Right. Like, yeah, you subjectively hear just the loudest voices who are coming to you on these things, but it doesn't always.
710
00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:02.000
That doesn't necessarily represent the majority need or demand and sometimes.
711
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:11.000
I wish it did this and they don't tweet you or something. You know, like, who knows? Well, and ultimately, like, that's why we're not going to only do the things that people ask for.
712
00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:15.000
But I do want to loop that in because.
713
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:28.000
That's tricky to figure out from a big group of people. I mean, maybe you guys have tips on it. Like, how do you get an understanding as to what the hell is going on with the scoop of people using your product?
714
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:35.000
I mean, one thing that we did is we just added like, send us your feedback and you click it and opens a buffer.
715
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:43.000
And it's like the absolute minimal friction. You could type like three words or you could type. I know there is a limit on it, but you could type a lot.
716
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:51.000
So then we got like, you know, 1,250 pieces of feedback from people. And something I like about that is like so easy.
717
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:57.000
Like the barrier to sending that is like, trivially low. You're not like navigating through issues on GitHub or something, right?
718
00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:04.000
But now the burdens on us to understand it. So like, we're kind of in the process of doing that, but Joseph on our team.
719
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:17.000
And then we're going to help me spin up this thing where we're just like batch as much of it as we can into GPT 4 and like have it like boil it down and then link back to the primary sources.
720
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:28.000
So we're able to like dive in and get more detail, but it just is helping us like wrap our head around it. So, but even that, I mean, and then we have quantitative information as well.
721
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:41.000
Like we also have to trust our own intuition and just like what we want to do. Yeah, there you go. What do we want? You know, yeah, how does when you start to analyze that from a human perspective and not from the AI perspective?
722
00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:47.000
Like what, you know, what hits for you? What makes you excited to work on next and that kind of stuff? I think that plays a part too.
723
00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:54.000
Huge part. Remember like a few years ago, everybody would was shooting stuff through Austin for sentiment analysis.
724
00:40:54.000 --> 00:41:02.000
I did not know that. Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, I worked in media for a little while. I saw like a couple of those things. Yeah. Yeah.
725
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:21.000
I worked in media for a little while. And that was like a big part of like AI like plays into news posts and things of that nature and comments like feed a bunch of comments in based on this like this article and get an overall sentiment analysis of how people felt about it.
726
00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:32.000
And it feels like there's a actual parallel there because people get really jazzed or incensed about their tools. You know this because you've worked on it because of that, right?
727
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:42.000
You have an emotional connection to your tools and developer experiences become like such an important thing to look at now. That's why these things are important.
728
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:56.000
So yeah, I almost would like parallel it to that is I have, I'm asking for feedback about the tool and you're getting comments and there's sentiment related to that. And there's commonality in terms and keywords and all that kind of stuff.
729
00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:01.000
So hopefully the GT GPT4 is giving you some of that.
730
00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:13.000
Yeah. And I mean, I'm not literally being like GPT4. Tell us what to build. But I mean, of course, GPT4, what critical things are the people who love the products say? Like that's a really important signal for me.
731
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:14.000
Right.
732
00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:17.000
Of like, okay, you love the product, but you know the past information, right?
733
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:25.000
Yeah. But then we're still going to ultimately do what we think is the right thing to do. And that's up to us.
734
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:31.000
And a lot of that is about our own agenda because I think like it's gotten us this far, it's gotten me this far.
735
00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:40.000
I didn't like lick my finger and figure out which way the wind was blowing to like start working on said I did it because I wanted to do it.
736
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:45.000
And I didn't even know why I wanted to do it. So I think we got to keep that mentality alive.
737
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:53.000
But I don't want to be like myopic and so centered and not listen at all either. It's got to be this balance between those two somehow.
738
00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:59.000
Yeah, you're at an itch and it's just kept you going. It's kept you itchy. Obviously it's like kept you motivated.
739
00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:05.000
Right. And that matters. That's like interesting. Where does Z come from? I want to know where Z comes from.
740
00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:08.000
So all I can think about is Pulp Fiction because it's a Z editor.
741
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:14.000
Yes, that is dead, which is like what I hope nobody will ever say, you know, it's like not the greatest association.
742
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:20.000
Yeah, we also hope that. But Z is kind of an homage to the editor Ed.
743
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:27.000
I don't know. I've always like been really captivated with like early history of computing.
744
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:32.000
And like there's like this photo of Ken Thompson and Dennis Richie.
745
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:42.000
And they're like next to a big PDP 11 cabinet. And they're like one of them. I don't remember which one is like working on a teletight machine.
746
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:52.000
And just like coming to the realization like holy shit. These guys were like coding units on a machine that didn't even have like a display.
747
00:43:52.000 --> 00:44:00.000
Like they were literally editing code on like a teletight printer with like no interactivity whatsoever.
748
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:07.000
So, you know, there's this editor Ed. It's one of the first editors and like I was like maybe I should call it Ed.
749
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:14.000
You know, I was just like driving. I think I was biking around Boulder one day thinking about what I want to call this project that was working on.
750
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:21.000
I'm like, but then realize like, oh, Ed is like still chips with like Darwin.
751
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:33.000
Like you can type Ed and it pulls up an editor. And so I knew that the editor would need a like whatever mate or subal or code or what needs a command line tool.
752
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:44.000
And so I'm like, well, I don't it would be really rude to like pay homage to Ed by calling the other Ed and then clobbering the command that runs the program and just kind of like.
753
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:49.000
So sort of thinking, okay, what could we call it and.
754
00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:54.000
You know, there were a lot of bad options, but said that stuff.
755
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:56.000
Yeah, so.
756
00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:01.000
And that's a French for Z in the alphabet. I mean, there's a whole lot of correlations, right.
757
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:07.000
And that also with the Z and the color blue that you're using makes me think of Steve Zsu.
758
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:16.000
So maybe you can get a red beanie with his that on the front and then that will be some cool swag to with like homage to Wes Anderson films.
759
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:18.000
I don't know. It's cool.
760
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:26.000
That's my weird roundabout way of saying like, actually, it's pretty cool. I like that. Yeah, there's all these other correlations to it. So.
761
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:36.000
And the cool thing was it's like, we needed a domain. And you know, I was looking around and Z was taken.
762
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:41.000
But I emailed the person and I just tried to play it cool.
763
00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:49.000
Because I didn't want to let on that we had gotten funding and needed a domain name because then what would you do?
764
00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:54.000
And they know you've got cash files. You're going to be like, great. Give me some of those. Yeah. Yeah.
765
00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:59.000
And so I talked back before with this guy in the UK. I don't remember his name.
766
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:02.000
But the domain transfers. And I'm like, okay, thank God.
767
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:08.000
You know, like we really needed this domain. Like I couldn't come up with any other domain that would be reasonable.
768
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:13.000
And he's like, oh, by the way, like huge fan of Adam excited to see what you do.
769
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:18.000
Like he knew who I was the whole time. That's awesome. And he sold me the domain at cost.
770
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:24.000
It was like such a cool moment of like he did you a solid that that is cool to stand up guy.
771
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:28.000
Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I wish you knew his name now before I was like, we're hiding from him.
772
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:33.000
No, now we want to. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I really should know his name. I'm like, well, whatever we build,
773
00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:39.000
like you have lifetime access to it, like whatever you want to do, you know, like appreciate that.
774
00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:42.000
I'm sure you have old emails or something. Yeah. Yeah.
775
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:46.000
Yeah. I would have been like, hey, cool. Big fan of Adam. Give me 10 grand.
776
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:52.000
Totally. Yeah. Don't buy domain names TLDs from Robbie. That's what you like.
777
00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:55.000
I don't have any good ones to sell you. Sorry. I don't either. Yeah.
778
00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:00.000
I did. I'd be making money. I don't need any other ones. Luckily. Yeah. I'm good for now.
779
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:06.000
The best one I had for a while and I did sell it was Kitswap. Kitswap because I am into soccer.
780
00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:12.000
And in Europe, they call them kits for the uniforms in particular the shirts or whatever.
781
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:16.000
And I was like, oh, cool. I'm going to, you know, whatever 15 years ago by.
782
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:20.000
I was going to build some shirtswapping site.
783
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:26.000
Very specific to that domain bought this and sat on it as we all do many with many domains.
784
00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:31.000
Oh, yeah. Never did really anything with it. And there you go. So yeah, I've actually sold it.
785
00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:38.000
I had a domain for a while. It was emoji coin because before the idea of NFTs ever existed.
786
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:47.000
I was just like, what if there's like a coin where it's like, there's only a finite number of Santa clauses and you're trading these things around.
787
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:53.000
And it might have flown honestly, but I could never, I don't know, take it seriously enough.
788
00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:57.000
I was kind of blown away when the whole NFT thing took off.
789
00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:01.000
And I'm like, that emoji coin idea I had wasn't like that crazy actually.
790
00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:03.000
And you, you still have it or no?
791
00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:07.000
I don't know. I have to look probably. Yes, probably not.
792
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:12.000
Yeah. So I was trying to dig dig for interest and other dirt and whatever not dirt.
793
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:15.000
Anyway, that's a problem to put the other interests dirt.
794
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:20.000
And I saw a lot of Bitcoin posts in your Twitter past.
795
00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:25.000
And so obviously you've had some interest in web three technologies and blockchain and all of that.
796
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:29.000
Is that somewhere in your head still? Are you kind of moved on?
797
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:33.000
Yeah. No, it's definitely a big part of my consciousness.
798
00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:38.000
I think I'm a bit of a maximalist, a Bitcoin maximalist.
799
00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:50.000
I mean, it's not to the extreme where I would say like nothing else of value could ever be built on cryptographic distributed consensus protocols.
800
00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:55.000
But more just like I'm so much more excited about Bitcoin than any of the other stuff.
801
00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:59.000
The other stuff is just like, eh, it's kind of interesting or that's a fun idea.
802
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:02.000
Whereas Bitcoin is actually pretty meaningful to me.
803
00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:10.000
And it really roots back to like, I don't know, really young age where I'm just like, what is money again?
804
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:12.000
Like how does this work?
805
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:19.000
And like one of my first jobs was like writing it was like in the lead up to the 2008 crisis.
806
00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:29.000
I like work for a mortgage company writing these scripts that would like send their data out of their terrible database that God knows how I even got data out of it.
807
00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:35.000
To countrywide home loans and you know, these terrible files are till these and them.
808
00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:40.000
But you know, that was really when questions started this world around like, how does this all work?
809
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:45.000
And yeah, what I love about Bitcoin is it's just like, I didn't know.
810
00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:48.000
Nobody knows.
811
00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:50.000
Trust them. Trust them.
812
00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:56.000
There are really intelligent people who think that it's all a bit bored and it all makes sense.
813
00:49:56.000 --> 00:50:07.000
But to me, the whole credit driven system, this idea that like, I work hard to be paid whatever I'm paid per hour.
814
00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:14.000
And then there's some other participants in the system that just get to conjure those units out of nothing.
815
00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:23.000
Now, if they carried some risk for doing that, like that would be one thing, but it kind of seems like they don't because there's moral hazard involved where they get to conjure the units.
816
00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:27.000
And then when that goes awry, then they're bailed out anyway.
817
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:39.000
And so like, if money represents human labor multiplied by time, you know, attention, human attention, human something effort times time.
818
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:42.000
Then I don't know. To me, it just doesn't seem ethical.
819
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:48.000
Like, obviously like, travel slavery in the South was this horrific brutal thing.
820
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:56.000
But there's something akin to it of like, slavery is sort of taking someone's labor from them in a non-consensual way.
821
00:50:56.000 --> 00:51:05.000
And to me, like, the process of being able to inflate the money supply, the seniorage awarded by that is just not honest.
822
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:15.000
And enables the government to operate in a way where they're not asking for tax revenue, like directly, they're kind of backdoring it and putting it off.
823
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:22.000
And like, so anyway, I just like a system where it's like, no human gets to decide.
824
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:30.000
And that was gold. But the problem with gold is I can't beam, you know, $20 with a gold from here to Australia in three seconds.
825
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:31.000
Right. Right. Yeah.
826
00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:34.000
Yeah. This sounds like it's own podcast actually.
827
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:38.000
Yeah. Sorry. I get a little ranty about it. No, no. Okay.
828
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:48.000
I don't discredit dislike or any of those things what you're talking about because I think we could go on for another hour about that specifically.
829
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:55.000
Yeah. If you happen to be in Atlanta later this month, I think we should talk in person about that. But okay. Yeah.
830
00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:58.000
Cool. Are you going to render? Yeah. Are you going to render?
831
00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:01.000
I'm not. I don't even know what render is. Tell me.
832
00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:06.000
Render ATL. It's a conference in Atlanta. Yeah. It's huge. Cool.
833
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:11.000
There's like everyone ever speaking there. So yes, like 80 plus speakers or something. Damn.
834
00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:16.000
I encourage you to come just to hang out. We're going to go because we were like, we got to go and hang out.
835
00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:23.000
That sounds really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. If you don't have plans, the funny thing about me is like, this is one area where I definitely need to level up.
836
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:29.000
Is I just some so like grinding all the time, right? Like heads down grinding building.
837
00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:35.000
I don't even know what this conference is that everyone's going to and 80 people are speaking at of note.
838
00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:39.000
Like I didn't even know what that was. That's okay. That's why you get shit done.
839
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:44.000
And we talk on a podcast and drink with so you know.
840
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:48.000
But honestly, I do need to fucking tell people this thing exists, right? Right.
841
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:53.000
Excuse my language. Make a bleep that out. No, you're fine. We are unedited. No, no, no.
842
00:52:53.000 --> 00:52:56.000
Okay. This is an alcohol field discussion.
843
00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:57.000
Okay.
844
00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:02.000
So we encourage profanity because this natural language to a degree, right?
845
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:06.000
Yeah. And you're not like applying for a job here or whatever. We're asking for funding.
846
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:09.000
Inversa binary tree. Yes. Hurry up and do it now.
847
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:14.000
So I'm going to go into some what not here because I know we're really starting to push back in whatever else.
848
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:20.000
One thing is one of one of our inspirations for this podcast is the hot ones YouTube show.
849
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:21.000
Okay.
850
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:25.000
Under duress increasingly like interesting and difficult questions.
851
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:35.000
And so the more whiskey you drink and then we ask you things and then we get off the rails and we curse and we start to talk about the money system and trust and whatever else.
852
00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:39.000
What's your question here, Chuck? So I you know, I just wanted to state that first.
853
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:44.000
And then my question is you mentioned Italy earlier. I'm scared Italy. Oh, yeah.
854
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:49.000
No, no, I want to go down the path of Italia. See a child, right?
855
00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:51.000
Because I've spent a lot of time there.
856
00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:55.000
You have a lot of friends and all that kind of stuff. And you know, one day wouldn't mind making it at home.
857
00:53:55.000 --> 00:53:58.000
But there are at least this temporary home.
858
00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:02.000
Save right? Okay. Well, then we've got a whole thing we can like go down there.
859
00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:04.000
I'll live there if you're there.
860
00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:08.000
That's all it takes. Someone to set you up and speak the language.
861
00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:13.000
I would like to live there, but like I need people that aren't Italian to hang out with.
862
00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:15.000
Yeah, right.
863
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:17.000
Well, all my friends speak English. So that's helpful.
864
00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:18.000
Yeah.
865
00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:24.000
We have some friends in coma who have kids the same age as us. So it's like very appealing to us to like bring your kids there.
866
00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:27.000
And then you have someone that's helped foster some comfort for them.
867
00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:28.000
Yeah.
868
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:30.000
Yeah. I don't know what, yeah.
869
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:38.000
I like, I love going there. I've been to a bunch of vineyards there and traveled around multiple times.
870
00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:40.000
It's a kind of regular haunt for me.
871
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:46.000
But like tell me a little about your time in Italy and what you love and where you like to be.
872
00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:52.000
Well, I mean, a big part of my connection to Italy is at Tokyo, who's one of my co-founders of Zed.
873
00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:54.000
Oh, yes. What?
874
00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:55.000
My new best friend.
875
00:54:55.000 --> 00:55:06.000
And so I mean, I love Italy before and Tokyo, but he's definitely deep in my love of it and visiting him and like, yeah.
876
00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:08.000
Where does he live?
877
00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:12.000
He lives in a, I'm probably mispronouncing it and he would correct me.
878
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:20.000
Gambettola, which is in Romania, which is about an hourish south of Belonia.
879
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:23.000
I'm actually visiting him. We're getting an Airbnb in Belonia.
880
00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:32.000
And I'm just going to like, yeah, last time I went to visit him, I did not eat for three days to make room.
881
00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:37.000
To just like destroy food while I was there and not even worried about it.
882
00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:39.000
Yeah, worked out perfectly.
883
00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:45.000
Other than I arrived and he's like, I have not even heard you finish a sentence without mentioning food.
884
00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:46.000
Other than all.
885
00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:55.000
So kind of put a damper on me as a conversation partner until we got the plate of Salami and cheese.
886
00:55:55.000 --> 00:56:06.000
But anyway, you know what's funny is that most times that I've been there, I can just eat my will eat like pizza and gelato every day.
887
00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:09.000
That's a pasta and whatever else. I usually lose weight.
888
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:12.000
Oh, yeah. I think it's just based on those they don't put chemicals in there.
889
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:17.000
Like it's real because it's just real food and normal portions.
890
00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:21.000
And so it's like not a big deal. It's just eat without having a problem.
891
00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:23.000
Well, yeah, that's an interesting thing.
892
00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:24.000
Yeah.
893
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:26.000
My wife is lactose intolerant.
894
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:29.000
She goes there each cheese every day, not a problem.
895
00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:30.000
Oh, damn.
896
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:31.000
Yeah.
897
00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:33.000
So it all treated dimension clearly.
898
00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:34.000
Yeah.
899
00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:36.000
Yeah. So I speak German.
900
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:41.000
They didn't offer Italian in high school, nor would I probably have elected it.
901
00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:42.000
Right.
902
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:45.000
They offered French, German and Spanish and everybody took Spanish.
903
00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:46.000
Yeah.
904
00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:49.000
And German just seemed interesting, like weird.
905
00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:53.000
You know, like, but I someday I would love to learn Italian.
906
00:56:53.000 --> 00:57:00.000
I tell them, Tony, I'm kind of learn Italian and then I last like two weeks and freaking dueling or whatever.
907
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:03.000
And then I'm like, oh, shit, I actually have a lot going on in my life.
908
00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:04.000
Yeah.
909
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:05.000
And this is a lot right now.
910
00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:06.000
Yeah.
911
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:07.000
But I would love to speak it.
912
00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:08.000
And I agree.
913
00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:13.000
The problem is when they actually think you do speak it, like we did that.
914
00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:17.000
Like so we went to Italy for a honeymoon and we thought we learned it for a while
915
00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:22.000
and like went to a restaurant and like got our way to the table without them knowing
916
00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:24.000
that we didn't speak Italian.
917
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:27.000
And then like the waiter's speaking to us an Italian non-stop and we're like, I'm sorry.
918
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:30.000
You've just got to like, you got to stop.
919
00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:33.000
No, we don't know what you're saying.
920
00:57:33.000 --> 00:57:37.000
Apologies, but you know, yeah, we're, this is where it ends.
921
00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:38.000
It's hard.
922
00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:39.000
It is.
923
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:40.000
Is it difficult?
924
00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:44.000
My wife actually took Italian and college and so she, you know, when we go there,
925
00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:48.000
she does most of the driving or we're with friends to speak English and it's fine.
926
00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:49.000
It doesn't matter.
927
00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:55.000
But I always have on my bucket list, like I want my Italian friends to respect me more.
928
00:57:56.000 --> 00:57:58.000
And if I had more of this, it would help.
929
00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:01.000
And my wife would just enjoy it because she loves Italians.
930
00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:04.000
Like, you know, it was like a dream come true for her.
931
00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:09.000
If you had a wine podcast, they would respect you more than if you had a whiskey podcast, I think.
932
00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:11.000
Well, they don't drink a ton to be honest.
933
00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:13.000
I mean, yes, they have wine or whatever.
934
00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:15.000
Yeah, I love wine with every meal.
935
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:18.000
Yeah, but like one, maybe two glasses and that's kind of the end of it.
936
00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:22.000
Like social drinking is very much less a thing there than it is here.
937
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:25.000
And definitely more, you know, less so than England.
938
00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:29.000
In England, you're constantly pounding drinks no matter what.
939
00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:34.000
And then Italy, it will be like, they'll put out, you know, they might like a, like casual social
940
00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:38.000
and you put out a liter of beer for a table of four and people share that and have a little,
941
00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:41.000
you know, a little bit of it and talk and whatever else.
942
00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:44.000
And they're like, baby, boobity, boobity, you know, they're, and that happened.
943
00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:45.000
That's for sure.
944
00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:46.000
Yeah, this happens.
945
00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:47.000
The hands talking.
946
00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:48.000
Yeah.
947
00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:49.000
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
948
00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:52.000
You know, an area of alcohol that I think is really interesting.
949
00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:55.000
I don't know a ton about it, but I know a little is Amaro's.
950
00:58:55.000 --> 00:58:58.000
Oh, like I'm so interesting.
951
00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:00.000
I know a lot about Amaro's.
952
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:02.000
You just, you just don't get so excited.
953
00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:03.000
Boom.
954
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:05.000
That's like probably my other favorite spirit.
955
00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:09.000
And I've had a ton of different ones and I've made them in cello myself.
956
00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:10.000
Oh, wow.
957
00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:13.000
Which is actually considered a part of like Amaro's.
958
00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:15.000
There's like Amaro's and Marys.
959
00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:20.000
And you know, there's things with herbs, things with just fruits and stuff.
960
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:23.000
And they're all kind of in the same boat of things.
961
00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:24.000
It's amazing.
962
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:25.000
I've been, uh, yeah.
963
00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:27.000
Campari is in Amaro.
964
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:28.000
Mm-hmm.
965
00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:29.000
Yeah, a lot of.
966
00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:30.000
I like Amaro and Donino.
967
00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:31.000
Yep.
968
00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:32.000
That's when I've had that I like.
969
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:33.000
Mm-hmm.
970
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:35.000
And there's another one for net is a big one.
971
00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:36.000
Oh, yeah, of course.
972
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:40.000
That's huge and Argentina originated in Italy, but yeah.
973
00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:44.000
And there's like apparel, which is kind of like the Bud Light of Amaro probably, right?
974
00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:45.000
Mm-hmm.
975
00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:46.000
Yeah.
976
00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:47.000
But I like those apparel spritz.
977
00:59:47.000 --> 00:59:48.000
I like apparel.
978
00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:49.000
Yeah.
979
00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:50.000
Spritz is our nice.
980
00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:51.000
Yeah.
981
00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:52.000
Yeah.
982
00:59:52.000 --> 00:59:53.000
They're good.
983
00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:54.000
There's no shame.
984
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:57.000
I can't tell you how many like happy hours where you can get out of Amaro spritz or an agrony.
985
00:59:57.000 --> 01:00:01.000
And then they have all this food out and that just became dinner for me a number of times.
986
01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:02.000
Oh, yeah.
987
01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:03.000
It was amazing.
988
01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:04.000
Oh, yeah.
989
01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:05.000
It's crazy.
990
01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:07.000
You order one drink and they give you like eight plates of food and you're like, wait.
991
01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:08.000
What?
992
01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:09.000
It comes with all this.
993
01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:10.000
Yeah.
994
01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:15.000
We ordered Milan for a couple of weeks and it was like oftentimes.
995
01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:17.000
That was dinner and then we go get gelato.
996
01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:18.000
Oh, yeah.
997
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:19.000
Oh, we have a couple of drinks.
998
01:00:19.000 --> 01:00:20.000
All this food.
999
01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:21.000
Now let's just get the dessert.
1000
01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:22.000
Who cares?
1001
01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:23.000
Yeah.
1002
01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:24.000
Sounds good to me.
1003
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:25.000
Yeah.
1004
01:00:25.000 --> 01:00:26.000
Yeah.
1005
01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:27.000
It's a different world.
1006
01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:31.000
So when you went to wineries in Italy, which region were you in?
1007
01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:33.000
We were mostly in Tuscany.
1008
01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:35.000
We've been to a few all over the place.
1009
01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:36.000
Yeah, mostly in Tuscany.
1010
01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:37.000
No, not that.
1011
01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:38.000
So our favorite is one.
1012
01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:39.000
No, not Kianti.
1013
01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:40.000
Yeah.
1014
01:00:40.000 --> 01:00:41.000
They had some other things there.
1015
01:00:41.000 --> 01:00:43.000
It's called Abononesi in Tuscany.
1016
01:00:43.000 --> 01:00:44.000
Oh, yeah.
1017
01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:45.000
The one that St.
1018
01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:48.000
Giovese, like with letters taken out and rearranged.
1019
01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:49.000
Yes.
1020
01:00:49.000 --> 01:00:51.000
And they're an organic winery.
1021
01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:56.000
But it was the first organic wine that I ever had that didn't taste like absolute garbage.
1022
01:00:56.000 --> 01:00:57.000
It's amazing.
1023
01:00:57.000 --> 01:01:00.760
And they have the whole thing where they like designed one of their vineyards where it's like
1024
01:01:00.760 --> 01:01:03.000
a tree in the center and it's all this big circle.
1025
01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:04.000
Oh, that's cool.
1026
01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:07.000
And all the vines grow out from there and they have a whole.
1027
01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:08.000
Wow.
1028
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:09.000
That's a cool reason for this.
1029
01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:12.000
But and they rotate it around basically to like.
1030
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:13.000
I love that.
1031
01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:14.000
Yeah.
1032
01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:15.000
It's a really neat.
1033
01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:16.000
So this place.
1034
01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:17.000
Yeah.
1035
01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:18.000
I love that place.
1036
01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:20.000
And we did like a whole food thing there too.
1037
01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:25.000
So we had like a six course thing with trying all these different wines and stuff to it.
1038
01:01:25.000 --> 01:01:26.000
Yeah.
1039
01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:27.000
And you never set me any one.
1040
01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:28.000
It's at my house.
1041
01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:29.000
Come get it.
1042
01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:30.000
All right.
1043
01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:31.000
I'll get on a flight right after this.
1044
01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:33.000
We had our first.
1045
01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:36.000
When we were just like Antonio Max and Nate.
1046
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:37.000
We started a designer.
1047
01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:39.000
Max is a my other co founder.
1048
01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:43.000
We all visited and stayed at this little in.
1049
01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:46.000
In kind of outside of Austin.
1050
01:01:46.000 --> 01:01:48.000
And just I drank a lot of Barbara.
1051
01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:50.000
It was really, really fun.
1052
01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:53.000
So yeah, that's the area that I'm more familiar with is like the.
1053
01:01:53.000 --> 01:01:55.000
Did you have any Hannah.
1054
01:01:55.000 --> 01:01:58.000
With your barbaric maybe Hannah barbarer.
1055
01:01:58.000 --> 01:01:59.000
Oh, Hannah.
1056
01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:00.000
Okay.
1057
01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:01.000
That's a cartoon.
1058
01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:04.000
Wait, that's a American winery probably.
1059
01:02:04.000 --> 01:02:07.000
It's a whole, you know, like.
1060
01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:10.000
Well, what's the bear and I don't know.
1061
01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:12.000
Yogi Huckleberry hound and Yogi bear.
1062
01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:14.000
And yeah, hey, boo, boo.
1063
01:02:14.000 --> 01:02:16.000
Anyway, yeah, we really devolved this conversation.
1064
01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:19.000
That's how we know this is working.
1065
01:02:19.000 --> 01:02:21.000
Yeah, the real wine around there.
1066
01:02:21.000 --> 01:02:24.000
That's like the, you know, the fancy wine is the nebula.
1067
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:27.000
But I know which I also think is really good.
1068
01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:31.000
But I like Dolceto just like toss it at back.
1069
01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:32.000
Anyway, I don't know.
1070
01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:33.000
I'm not picky.
1071
01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:36.000
You know what I love about being there is that you can get amazing.
1072
01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:37.000
Lambrusco all over the place.
1073
01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:39.000
Lambrusco is really good.
1074
01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:41.000
But the problem is it's a young wine.
1075
01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:42.000
It doesn't ship well.
1076
01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:44.000
It doesn't sit on shelves well and all that.
1077
01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:47.000
And so reunity is garbage and like it's a really good point.
1078
01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:48.000
Yeah.
1079
01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:50.000
Lambrusco all over the place.
1080
01:02:50.000 --> 01:02:53.000
Super good and like great summer wine.
1081
01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:54.000
Yeah.
1082
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:55.000
I like it.
1083
01:02:55.000 --> 01:02:57.000
We're our way over time though.
1084
01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:00.000
So we're going to have to talk more wine another time.
1085
01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:04.000
Before we end, is there anything we missed about Zed
1086
01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:06.000
or anything you want to plug before we end?
1087
01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:09.000
I mean, we just landed co-pilot support.
1088
01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:11.000
I'm excited about language models generally.
1089
01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:15.000
So that's another thing that's heavy in the mix on our road map
1090
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:20.000
is getting language models more involved in what it's like to code in Zed.
1091
01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:22.000
We're in open beta.
1092
01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:23.000
Give us a try.
1093
01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:26.000
I would appreciate if you click the little message in the status bar
1094
01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:29.000
and send us your feedback even if you decide this isn't ready for me yet.
1095
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:32.000
It's missing xyz or I don't like this.
1096
01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:34.000
I would, yeah, we want to hear it.
1097
01:03:34.000 --> 01:03:39.000
It will go into our giant digester in the sky.
1098
01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:42.000
But then we just drill down in and read specific stuff.
1099
01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:44.000
So it would be super helpful to us.
1100
01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:45.000
So yeah, I don't know.
1101
01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:46.000
Anything else?
1102
01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:47.000
Any other questions?
1103
01:03:47.000 --> 01:03:48.000
I guess we're over time.
1104
01:03:48.000 --> 01:03:49.000
So no.
1105
01:03:49.000 --> 01:03:50.000
Yeah.
1106
01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:51.000
All right.
1107
01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:52.000
Only offline.
1108
01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:53.000
That's it.
1109
01:03:53.000 --> 01:03:54.000
Yeah.
1110
01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:55.000
Thanks everybody for listening.
1111
01:03:55.000 --> 01:03:56.000
If you liked it, please subscribe.
1112
01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:57.000
Leave us some ratings and reviews.
1113
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:00.000
We appreciate it and we will catch you next time.
1114
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:01.000
Five stars.
1115
01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:07.000
Thanks for listening to WhiskeyWeb and whatnot.
1116
01:04:07.000 --> 01:04:12.000
This podcast is brought to you by ShipChap and produced by Podcast Royale.
1117
01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:16.000
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1118
01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:17.000
And leave us a rating.
1119
01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:19.000
Maybe a review as long as it's good.
1120
01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:25.000
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1121
01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:32.000
For more info about ShipChap and the show, check out our website at shipchap.io.
1122
01:04:55.000 --> 01:04:58.000
You