Anonymous #40 — Does It Matter What You Believe About Death, As Long As You Actually Believe It?

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I've always found it a little bit ridiculous to avoid the topic like the plague.
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If there's anything more universal, I couldn't think of it.
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Everyone here is gonna die.
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One of my favorite sayings, someone will go into really crowded like Times Square and then look their friend in the eye and go, Everyone here is gonna be dead at some point.
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And I know that's a little morbid, but that's my kind of so I guess it starts with that.
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It's factual, exactly.
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And it's not something that you think about watching a huge group of people like you'd find in a Times Square, but it's absolutely true.
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It all starts with a single question asked to an anonymous caller.
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What do you think happens when we die?
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And from there, the conversation goes in completely unexpected directions.
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Some speak with certainty, others with doubt, some are still trying to make sense of it all.
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I'm Zach Ansel, and this is When We Die Talks, a podcast about death, meaning, and how that shapes the way we live.
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This podcast was born from my own fears around death and the need to talk about.
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Thank you for being a part of this conversation.
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I'm glad you're here.
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Hey, welcome back or welcome here if this is your first time.
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This week's caller is someone who has thought seriously, and I mean seriously, about what happens when we die.
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They've built a whole framework for it.
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One that pulls from quantum physics, Buddhist philosophy, and their own instincts that the universe is stranger and more connected than most of us ever let ourselves believe.
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And they carry it with a real peace, a settled, almost fearless relationship with death that has genuinely changed how they move through the world, how they grieve, how they feel empathy, how they make decisions.
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Then somewhere towards the end of the conversation, they say something really honest that all of these ideas might just be a story they're telling themselves to feel comfortable with death, and they sit with that.
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They don't run from it.
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We also get into what it's like to feel a different kind of grief than the people around you, to lose someone and to find yourself somewhere quieter than everyone else expects, whether that's a gift or its own thing to carry.
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This one goes some interesting places.
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Let's get into the call.
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I hope you enjoy.
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Hello.
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Hey, how's it going?
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Going well.
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It's going good.
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Thank you for asking.
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How are you doing?
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I'm doing okay.
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I uh I got a really maybe bad idea to do like a late spring cleaning project.
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And so there's just kind of junk everywhere and it's just a mess.
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And I know it'll all be good in the end, but I'm not super pumped with myself at the moment.
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Are you gonna try and power through it and get it all done today, or are you gonna spread it out a bit?
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I think it's one of those things that needs to get spread out a little bit because it's it's kind of like reorganizing too.
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So it's gotta get stuff taken out so that I can get new stuff in.
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So it'll be I don't think it's like a super long project ahead, but it's longer than I want it to be already.
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Oh yeah.
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And just up a bit more than you could chew.
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Yeah, a little bit.
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It's that it's at that moment of the process where it's like, why did I think this was a good idea?
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So I know it'll all be worth it in the end, but just in that kind of like middle phase of not being super pumped.
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Exactly.
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And the best part can't get any worse than it currently looks.
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That's true.
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That's true.
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That is that that is very true.
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So yeah, I'm gonna keep that in mind.
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But we don't need to talk about my stupid decisions.
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We get to talk about you.
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And so the way that I normally like to start these calls is to get an idea of why you even wanted to do it.
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Death was a topic that a lot of people don't tend to talk about, avoid, all these things.
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And you decided to sign up to talk to a complete stranger about it on the phone for approximately an hour.
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So maybe just briefly you could let me know why you want to do that.
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We'll get into the deeper conversation for sure.
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But yeah, just maybe briefly.
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Yeah, what kind of person signs up to do this?
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To be fair, you're like you're in the I think this is mid-70s of people.
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So you're not okay, you're not the first person to do it, but you're also still a person that decided that this was a cool idea.
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Or maybe not.
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Maybe you thought it was a terrible idea and you're here to tell me off.
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So we'll find out.
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So what I'm hearing is I'm top 100.
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So that's a good feeling.
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Yeah, yes, exactly.
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All right, yeah.
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So no, the main thing that drew me to it, first and foremost, uh just in a general sense, I've always found it a little bit ridiculous to avoid the topic like the plague.
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If there's anything more universal, I could think of it.
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Everyone here is gonna die.
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One of my one of my favorite sayings, someone will go into really crowded like Times Square and then look their friend in the eye and go, everyone here is gonna be dead at some point.
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And I know that's a little morbid, but that's my kind of so I guess it starts with that.
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It's it's factual, exactly.
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It's not something that you think about watching a huge group of people like you'd find in a Times Square, but it's absolutely true.
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So I guess that sort of morbid curiosity of and I guess another thing for me is I'm not a I I've learned in as I've gotten older, I've learned to start accepting the mysteries.
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Yeah.
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But I feel like I gained a pretty good theory or a pretty good guess or a pretty good like self-understanding about what I think will happen once you die.
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So I thought I'd I thought I'd share that with anyone who might find it useful.
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That's good setup right there.
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I like that.
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You're like teasing it out, and yeah, we'll get into that in a second.
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I love the setup.
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I'm excited to get into your theory, but before we do, maybe we can get to know you just a little bit.
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Obviously, going to keep the anonymity and everything so you feel comfortable sharing whatever you want to share.
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But I'd like to ask a couple questions just to maybe get an idea a little bit about you in the sense of maybe where ideas were formed or came from.
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And so I like to ask the state that you live in now, and then the state that maybe you would call home or like your childhood home, where you grew up.
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And then the one question that I've asked almost every single person just about what's your favorite book and why?
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Ooh, okay.
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It's I watched one of the podcasts just to prepare myself.
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And I remember hearing the what's your favorite book question and going, oh, I should probably prepare an answer for that.
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I didn't I think it's better when people don't prepare.
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Okay, good.
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All right, yeah.
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So I I guess to answer the first part of the question, right now I'm calling you from the beautiful greater Atlanta area.
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And I've lived here almost my whole life.
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I moved here when I was around nine, so I like to say I'm from both places, but at the beginning, at the very beginning, I lived over in New York.
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Upstate to be specific.
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So not a cool New Yorker, just uh an upstate one.
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Upstate's still cool.
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I don't really know much about it, but my sister does live in upstate New York, so I feel like I have to like maybe represent or just I don't know.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Exactly.
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It's it's like New York City is such a small place, but they do all the PR for the entire state.
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Oh, yeah, absolutely.
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And as far as my favorite book, that's a hard one.
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I'm can I give two answers?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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Okay, cool.
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Whenever I'm reading, I'll always pick one sort of self-help, promote inner character kind of book, and then I'll read a fiction book.
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So I'm gonna give you an answer for both.
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Perfect.
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My favorite sort of self-help adjacent book, I'm going to say the heart of the Buddha teachings by Pick Nat Hann.
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I really like that book.
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It was really formative for me when I was in college.
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It I feel like it's a bedrock of a lot of the opinions and thoughts I have now.
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And as far as like fiction books are concerned, I was a really big fan of Morning Day and Night by this guy with the last name Greg.
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I can't remember exactly the guy's last name, but I remember his last name was Gray, and the name of the book was Morning, Day and Night.
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Okay.
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If I haven't if I have any issues finding it, I'll reach out.
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But what stood out to you about that one?
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So it's a it's a memoir of sorts, and it spans a whole day.
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And it's just a day in the life of this guy.
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I think he was a famous storyteller at some point in his life, and he basically used all that money and all the knowledge that he got from the stories he told to like settle down.
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And it's a very mundane slice of life kind of deal.
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But I feel like it asks a lot of questions and it asks you to examine your life in a way that I thought was at the very least entertaining.
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I enjoyed that book.
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I enjoy his sense of humor too.
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That sounds really interesting.
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I'll definitely check that one out.
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The first thing that comes to mind, I don't know if you've ever read Stoner.
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Um, it's definitely not a day, but right, it's just like a very mundane life.
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But yeah, that sounds really interesting.
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Like I said, if I have any issues finding it, I'll let you know.
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But I I have a an a growing list of just all the recommendations from all the anonymous callers.
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And so it's getting to be quite weird and strange, but looking forward to adding both those.
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And a huge fan of TikNot Hans.
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I haven't read that book, so I'll definitely check that one out as well.
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It's definitely a good one.
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I feel like it informed a little bit of what I think happens after you die.
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So it's super topical too.
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Well, the perfect thing is the next thing I'm gonna ask you is what do you think happens when we die?
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I've thought about this a lot, and one of the things that I feel like if you're like an unrestrained thinker, if you're open-minded, as I assume Thick Nat Hands would suggest you be, you you gather a lot of different sort of, I like to consider an eclectic spiritual world view, whatever that means.
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So I've cobbled together a lot, but this is the this is what makes the most sense in my brain.
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Here it is, unvarnished.
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So I think that when you die, your soul or whatever untangible thing represents you in like the spiritual world, it goes up and it picks a new person to be, whether it be like past, present, future.
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So I I think a lot of people they imagine everything in this super linear, time-centric way, where like, oh, if you die here, you're gonna wake up exact same second somewhere else on the planet.
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I feel like that was a really restricting way to think about it.
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I imagine all points in time as equal in a weird sense.
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So I I think when you go up, I think you just pick a new person to be, and so on and so forth.
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And I think it's just like soul doing the whole long journey.
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And so at some point, my soul is gonna go up and yada yada, and I'll eventually be on the other side of this phone asking a stranger how they how what they think happens after you die.
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Is there a chance that you're doing that right now?
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I think in a quite literal sense, and don't take this actually take this as literally as you want.
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I am me, and a long, long you sense, I'm also you, yeah, and vice versa.
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Yeah.
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That's my honest, that's my honest belief on it.
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Yeah.
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And I I think this is fascinating.
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If you haven't, it's come up a couple times on the podcast before what I was alluding to and not necessarily pointing in a direction or whatever, but there's a short story by Andy Weir called the egg, which is essentially what you said, and then me paring into the only thing is every single person, and I guess spoiler alert, every single person is you, past, future, present.
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All of it is just you continuing to go back.
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And so I guess we don't need to go off on that tangent.
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The I'm much more interested in in hearing you talk more about this because I do think this is fascinating.
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So I was gonna say you die.
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I'm not watching it on you or anything, but you die.
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It'll happen eventually.
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Yeah, at some point it's gonna happen.
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And then you go up or out or whatever direction, doesn't really matter.
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And I guess a couple things.
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I know you said it's not like you feel like you come back and it's okay, I died on whatever today is, and then I came back the next day in a different life as a baby in a different life in a different place, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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Do you think and like you said, there's part of it that is you could come back in the past, you could come back in the future, you come back in in the present because time is funny and weird, and because we have this weird human understanding that we think we we know how time works, but just at least the time that we understand is just a mechanism to keep track of our moving abouts of the world.
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But sorry, I'm getting sidetracked.
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This is trying to explain myself.
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So you die, you die.
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Perfect, perfect.
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You die.
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Then is there some sort of breathing period, do you think, or it's okay, like I need to get like my post-humaning or post-life uh spa retreat on?
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And this is obviously joking a little bit, but is there a period of hey, I need to like I get to chill out and think about?
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I guess I'm circling around a couple questions around is there period between is there a reason that you're coming back as the person, or I guess part of it too, is it person, or could you come back as an animal or a tree or a plant, whatever it is?
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I completely understand where you're coming from.
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It's is there a council?
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Do they get it?
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Is there a reason why you're doing this?
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Yeah.
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Uh you're an ant now because you were a CEO or even do you choose that?
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Or is there an aspect of not necessarily judgment, but is there a part of it, it's like, hey, you know what?
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I think it'd be interesting to learn the lessons of an ant this time around.
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And like having an idea of, hey, I've humaned and now I'm gonna go be an ant and experience what it's like to be on such a small scale size-wise.
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Yeah, I'm curious maybe about hearing a little bit more in depth of this idea because I do think it's fascinating.
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Yeah.
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So I think it's a good question.
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I think that while you're dying, there's a review process that's going on.
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Okay.
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There even the people who like die suddenly or or I don't know, not to be super morbid on a show where we talk about what happened.
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Well, imagine someone like puts a bullet through someone's head.
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Yeah.
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There's not gonna be a lot of like you on your deathbed last breath.
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It's like someone turn the lights out.
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Yeah.
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But I think in even in that situation, I feel like you when that your life flashes before your eyes and you're recollecting everything that's happened to you.
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I think that process is literal here and symbolic in the in the spirit world.
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I hope that I I'm not gonna define that really well, but I feel like everyone has a basic understanding.
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Yeah, and then it also just plays into the concept of time that we were talking about.
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Yeah.
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I think I I think the the next life is just gonna be a remix of this one.
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The big strokes, like the big emotional strokes of your life, I think are gonna be repeated in the next one.
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Imagine it almost as like a gradient scale.
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If you could imagine consciousness, like a level of consciousness is like a number.
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Let's say humans are at a flat 100, dogs might be at a 50.
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You know what I mean?
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And lower you get a mosquito might be a 0.5.
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I think life on a grander scale, when you think of it in terms of five lifetimes or something like that.
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I think it's like, I think it's a gradient.
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So I think you'll not even just like humans were to put it just all on this planet or in this dimension to get even weirder with it.
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I think it's like there's a there's a progression.
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It's like a video game almost.
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Like you've died in this world, you wake up in the next one, and you get to try the broad strokes again.
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So, like maybe that big breakup that you had will be a father figure who died.
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It's going to be your friend's father figure, and you're helping him through it instead of doing it yourself.
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Uh I imagine that climb on the number scale.
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Like, how do you get from 100 to 150?
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I think we imagine ourselves at the top because we're the highest example of consciousness that we have.
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Yeah.
00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:45.679
But I think it would be very foolish to imagine where the topic gets.
00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:46.000
Yeah.
00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:47.279
Absolutely.
00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:48.000
Totally totally.
00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:50.240
So I I think of it like that.
00:16:50.399 --> 00:17:03.039
And the more you think for yourself, and the more you attempt to understand the world and to interface with these critical moments that I'm talking about, I think you're putting yourself one notch ahead.
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:08.960
Like maybe there's some guy at 101 right now, and he's gonna get to 102 by the time he dies.
00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:13.519
And when he reincarnates in some new body, he'll still be at 102.
00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:13.759
Yeah.
00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:16.240
He'll be on a completely different footing.
00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:16.559
Yeah.
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:17.440
Does that make sense?
00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:17.920
Yeah.
00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:18.240
Yeah.
00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:32.000
The other thing that I think's really interesting, and I don't know if this plays into your theory at all, but something that I've thought about as well is the idea of a young soul and like an old soul, and people who are just like naturally, I've always felt like an old soul.
00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:39.599
Like I've always just even as a kid, I remember like always feeling more comfortable talking to my friend's parents than my friends in some ways.
00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:43.440
And it just like always was a little bit more mature and all these things.
00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:50.799
And I do like the idea of if there are a bunch of, I guess we're called in some ways it's almost like reincarnates, right?
00:17:50.880 --> 00:18:06.960
If that's happening and time isn't necessarily linear and it's messy or whatever, like you could have overlapping, oh yeah, this person's living their first lifetime or their 10th lifetime, and this other person's living their hundredth lifetime or whatever.
00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:11.839
And that's all commingling a little bit, which I I always I don't know, I find that fascinating.
00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:16.720
But I guess the thing that I want to ask you from here is so what's the end game?
00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:17.920
Or is there an end game?
00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:21.599
Is are you are you coming back and coming back to learn something?
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:29.839
And once you learn that thing, then it's uh off to something else, or is it just a perpetual reincarnation and it's just a loop forever?
00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:32.400
Or how do you see that aspect of it?
00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:34.799
It's a good, it's a good question.
00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:36.079
I try to ask them.
00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:38.400
I'm not always great at it, but I try.
00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:52.079
Yeah, I think it's a I think it's I fear it a little bit, but I do think it's like an infinite loop kind of deal.
00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:57.759
And uh people will always be like, it's not about the destination, it's about the journey.
00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:04.240
So I think in a philosophical sense, being like it the idea that it has to end.
00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:20.480
The idea that ends in as a concept aren't just stuff that we made up because we draw a line where something ends, yeah, and to bring it back to dying, we draw a line once we put you in the coffin and put you in the dirt, but you know, your body is gonna be there.
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:30.079
Yeah, your body is eventually that coffin's gonna break down, your body's gonna break down, your composite parts hundreds of thousands of years later, you might be in a completely different set and setting.
00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:34.880
Yeah, I think ends are something we just made up, to be honest.
00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:47.920
So I could really imagine a world where it's one huge loop and this trailing of like different bodies that I'm talking about in different lifetimes, it just ends back at you and then you do it all over again.
00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:51.279
And something it's a little bit terrifying.
00:19:51.519 --> 00:20:01.759
And I don't I don't like the idea of like eternal reoccurrence where it's just like you die and then you wake up as you as a baby, and then you do it all over again.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:16.400
But I think there's a little bit of a value in truly living in that sort of headspace because then you question not only do I want to do this now, do I want to do this over and over again forever?
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:18.799
And you you choose your decisions more wisely.
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:20.319
So it's a give and take, you know?
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:21.519
Yeah, absolutely.
00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:27.599
I guess the other the big thing from all of this is where does this come from?
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.960
What has led you to feeling like this is the answer?
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:39.279
It obviously sounds like there's some Buddhist influence with TikNat Han, but yeah, what's the influence or what has led you to feeling like this was the thing?
00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:49.039
And maybe the things that you've explored along the way that didn't align, it's oh yeah, I looked into this religion or I looked into this, I don't know, philosophical approach and it didn't work.
00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:50.720
So yeah, curious about that.
00:20:51.680 --> 00:21:00.480
Yeah, so it's it I promise you, in my head, how I arrived at this, it makes perfect sense.
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:05.119
But it might it you might be like, how did he get from there to there?
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:06.720
But I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you anyways.
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:16.160
So this guy made up about I think it was like electrons and maybe it was like antimatter or something.
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:22.960
Okay, but there's always these collisions with like electrons and some other fundamental particle I can't quite remember the name of.
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:31.680
Okay, but this guy was looking at these collisions, and there's a huge imbalance between the electric were was it protons or it was something.
00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:32.799
I think it was electrons.
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:34.160
I'm almost certain it was electrons.
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:34.400
Okay.
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:35.920
The other particle I don't know.
00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:49.519
But there's a disproportionate amount of electrons versus the thing to, and he really could be as to why that was, and it's still an open question in science today.
00:21:49.839 --> 00:22:05.920
But he had a special idea because he was looking at these collisions happening, and he was like, okay, what if electrons are Moving forward in time, and these other fundamental particles are moving backward in time.
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:15.200
So what we're seeing isn't a collision between two particles, but a particle turning around in time.
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:20.400
Like it's going forward in time, and then for whatever reason, it goes backwards in time.
00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:27.359
And to us, it looks like a collision because the other thing arriving towards it, we're looking at it in the wrong direction.
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:32.000
It's actually going backwards in time, continuing on the same path.
00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:32.559
Okay.
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:34.400
So bear with me.
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:34.880
Yeah.
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:38.799
He suggested that it's all just one electron.
00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:42.319
And if you Google one electron theory, it's it's all out there.
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:49.519
But he was like, maybe it's just one electron that we're watching going backwards and forwards in time all the time.
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:50.000
Okay.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:23:03.279
And if we strung up all these collisions and we recorded all of them perfectly, we'd be able to line up the path of one electron doing a huge path across our universe, making up everything that we see.
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:16.880
That's why the logic, but I feel like the connection there is implicit, but the logic of what I'm saying has basis in theory pertain to like fundamental particles in the natural world.
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:17.359
Yeah.
00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:23.440
What if souls are going through a similar process?
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:31.680
Is it possible it could just be one soul doing a huge, indescribably, unverifiably long journey?
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:32.799
Does that make sense?
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:33.519
It does.
00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:45.519
And I would say again, if you and I can even send it to you after, if you haven't read that short story, you should, because it feels very, very along the lines of what you're talking about here.
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:47.920
I'll definitely give it a I'll definitely give it a read.
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:48.240
Yeah.
00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:48.480
Yeah.
00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:50.799
I think you'll like any questions on that?
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:53.440
Hopefully I didn't throw too much at you.
00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:55.039
No, you didn't throw too much at me.
00:23:55.119 --> 00:24:08.000
I think it just um one of the first things when you're talking about the theory in general, I was like, I don't remember the movie that well, but I'm like, I'm getting like tenant vibes of like things moving forward and things moving backward at the same time.
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:11.359
And I was like, okay, maybe we need to rewatch that movie again and think about this.
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:14.960
But I was like, oh yeah, but I need to look up the one electron theory as well.
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:17.519
And so ultimately I just find it like very fascinating.
00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:20.559
It doesn't, there's not anything that like threw me off.
00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:26.880
And I like the idea of this if this is happening, and again, it's a theory, right?
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:34.400
But if it's happening on the smallest scale, like why couldn't it happen on a larger scale?
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:35.440
On a bigger scale, yeah.
00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:35.920
Yeah.
00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:36.319
Yeah.
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:45.839
Especially if and I don't necessarily know if this is how it plays out, but it's if it's one electron, I don't necessarily know how that plays into.
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:51.279
And this is maybe partially my lack of science, like fundamental science knowledge or whatever.
00:24:51.440 --> 00:25:00.079
But if it's it's one electron that's doing everything, we're made up of those small things of protons and electrons and all that thing.
00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:07.839
So if it's if it is one, then it would almost have to be true for everything, then, right?
00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:09.359
I think that's where my head goes.
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:18.559
And I I like to take the material world as like a metaphor for the spiritual world.
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:26.000
Because for as much as you want to posit X, Y, and Z about a spiritual world no one's ever seen, yeah, you only have the evidence in front of you.
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:36.160
And so I like to try and find parallels, possible parallels between the two, and use that to inform how I go about living and how I go about the world.
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:48.480
But only other thing I'll say in relation to this is uh I feel like a lot of ancient belief systems and ways of thinking about spirituality, they all hearken back to the idea that we're all one.
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:48.799
Yeah.
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:53.440
Quite literally, like non-dualism, like you and me, we're all the same.
00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:53.920
Yeah.
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:55.440
That's the stuff I'm diving into now.
00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:00.480
Yeah, it's I fully on I fully believe that.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:00.720
Yeah.
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:02.720
I read the Heart of the Buddhist teaching.
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:07.759
And if there is one Buddhist teaching that the Knight hand really wants to drill in, it's non-duality.
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:11.519
Like the separations that we're making, the ends that we're deciding are ends.
00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:12.480
It's all fictitious.
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:14.880
We make it up in our brains to better understand the world.
00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:16.160
Yeah, it's a construct.
00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:19.759
It's a story that we tell ourselves to to make try to make sense of it.
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:24.240
And and it's also the stories that have been told to us for a long time that we're separate, we're different.
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:24.799
Yeah.
00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:33.200
It's I'm doing a class right now on non-duality and it's and no-self, and it's yeah, it's definitely blowing my mind every day that I am going further into it.
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:34.640
I kind of have two questions.
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:38.400
I think one takes us off in a completely different direction.
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:50.799
And and I don't even know, so I'll go with this other one, and I don't necessarily know if there's anything here, but it feels more aligned with where we're at in this kind of, I would say pretty out there of thinking.
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:57.839
You very just casually mentioned, and you might have even laughed after you said it, other dimensions.
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:06.079
And so I'm curious before I maybe take the conversation a different way, maybe explain that if that has any importance here.
00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:09.599
I really haven't thought much about other dimensions.
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:13.279
And so I don't have a specific question here.
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:14.240
For sure.
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:19.519
And I I I definitely mean it in a multiverse kind of way.
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:20.000
Okay.
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:20.160
Yeah.
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:34.400
Because if any anything is possible, I could reincarnate as me, but with a million dollars silver spoon in my mouth when I'm born.
00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:41.519
And like in this hypothetical, in in this belief system that I'm trying to suggest here, that's possible.
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:50.160
I don't know if it'd be possible, but maybe there's some specific events in my life that be I get a completely different perspective on.
00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:52.160
I had a million dollars in my back pocket.
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:52.400
Yeah.
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:56.559
And that would teach me something or it'd be interesting to experience.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:06.079
But I more mean like extra-dimensional in the sense that the world that we're looking at is not the whole thing.
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:14.240
It's what our brain and eyes and other senses are tuned to see because they're the most useful.
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:22.240
So there's a whole bunch of other completely unfathomable, literally unfathomable stuff happening all the time.
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:27.599
You know, other colors we'll never see, other sounds we'll never hear, stuff like that.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:41.920
And so to imagine that we're the only beings occupying the space that we're in, and we're only seeing such a small sliver of the space that we're in, yeah, is also something that I think people take a lot for granted.
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:47.119
Like I could imagine a very crowded universe as I walk alone on a street.
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:49.839
What am I not seeing that can see me?
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:52.880
And I think about it in a mental sense.
00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:58.400
Like to give you a parallel or to give you an example, like a cat, right?
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:04.000
A cat might know that if it jumps at the handle, the door might swing open.
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:18.400
But if you asked a cat, if you were able to communicate with a cat and you asked it what a door was, and you asked it what a handle was, and you asked it why, you know, it sometimes would open when you step on it, but sometimes it would just stay exactly straight.
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:20.319
It would have no idea what a lock was.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:20.640
Yeah.
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:32.799
And so it's like there's a part of mental reality that it does not have the capacity to experience, but it's like it's so pertinent to a cat's everyday life.
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:34.799
The idea that a door might be locked.
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:40.400
If it had that information, it would illuminate so much about the cat's life.
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:40.720
Yeah.
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:46.400
So it's, I have to imagine there's stuff like that that we experience all the time.
00:29:46.720 --> 00:30:06.160
And you know, who's to say there aren't fundamental things about our reality that we don't have access to, fundamental beings in our reality that interact with us all the time that we don't have access to, in the same way a cat might walk by five doors in a house and not know what a door is and not know what a handle is and not know what a lock is.
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:06.559
Yeah.
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:07.839
Does that make sense?
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:08.640
It does, yeah.
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:13.759
And I think just in general, it's really hard for me to believe that we know.
00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:18.319
And I think it's, I don't even think this is not like a bold proclamation at all.
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:21.279
It's hard for me to believe that we know everything about how the world works.
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:23.279
And this is not exactly what it is.
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:34.000
And maybe someone will correct me and for the idiot that I am, but there's stuff that we can explain how it works on Earth and have theories and all these things around it.
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:38.400
And then there's another set of theories that explain things that happen in space.
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:41.279
And I don't necessarily know if that's the dilemma between the two.
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:44.880
But the two of them fundamentally don't align.
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:53.119
They are completely in like contention of one another, that this one works for here and this one works for here, but they don't actually work together.
00:30:53.359 --> 00:31:03.200
And yeah, it's hard for me to imagine that we understand how everything works and that there isn't just fundamental things that we aren't aware of at this point.
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:29.839
We are still, as humans, really young in the context of not even just, I think it's easy to be like, oh yeah, we're really young on the cosmic scale, but just, I don't know, even just the humans that we are now and like the internet and all this technology and all this information we have, yeah, it's very young in the scale of just like humanity of like using tools and stuff like that and whatnot.
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:34.240
And so it's hard for me to imagine that we've already gotten to a place where it's like, yep, we know how everything works.
00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:37.920
And so yeah, I think it's very much um aligned with you.
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:39.200
And there's fundamental things.
00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:42.480
Like you said, there's colors that we can't see, there's sounds that we can't hear.
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:51.039
There's there has to be things that we just we don't have access to or we don't have the knowledge of how to access those things.
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:51.680
Yeah.
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:53.039
I love conversations like this.
00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:53.440
Thank you.
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:54.640
Absolutely.
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:56.720
Cats don't think about what doors are.
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:57.119
Yeah.
00:31:57.279 --> 00:31:58.400
It's they just don't know.
00:31:58.640 --> 00:31:58.799
Yeah.
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:00.559
So it's they don't even know to ask.
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:01.839
And yeah, exactly.
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:03.200
You're right where I'm driving at.
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:04.000
Yeah, absolutely.
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:06.640
Especially like the non-duality add in here.
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:07.599
That was really great.
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:15.359
So I guess the thing that I'd love to ask from here is we've gotten like very scientific, very esoteric in ways.
00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:18.400
And maybe I just want to bring it back to death.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:21.759
And not that we haven't been talking about this, it has been all about death.
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.440
Life and death are very tied.
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:23.839
Yeah.
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:26.960
And so what are your feelings about death?
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:34.720
Does this idea, this theory, whatever you want to call it, does it give you some peace around, hey, I've done this before and I'm gonna do it again?
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:38.559
Is there still anxiety or fear around what is your relationship there?
00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:43.279
And maybe part of that is influenced by deaths you've had in your life or whatever.
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:53.599
But yeah, I'm curious about maybe that, maybe on a more, I don't know, I don't want to say like literal, but maybe yeah, personal lived kind of experience.
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:56.319
What is what does death look like in that capacity?
00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:58.480
Yeah, absolutely.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:00.720
I think it's done a couple of things for me.
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:02.880
I'll give you the goods and I'll give you the bads.
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:03.119
Yeah.
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:06.160
I'll start with the goods because I'm an optimistic kind of guy.
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:20.640
The good thing that it does, it might be a little counterintuitive, but whenever I'm looking on the news or someone shows me some unwelcome piece of information about that going on in the world, and it's some big horrible thing.
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:20.960
Yeah.
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:26.799
Like someone super tragic, child is in some unfortunate circumstance and died because of it.
00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:27.039
Yeah.
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:32.400
Or 15 people were in a building and a missile just flew into it for literally no reason.
00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:33.359
Stuff like that.
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:48.000
And I'll see it and I'll hear about it, or I'll hear an experience of someone who has recovered from crazy circumstances, and it I'm struck by a sort of selfish empathy.
00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:54.880
Because in my mind, one of the first thoughts I think is I'll be there doing that one day.
00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:57.440
And that's a terrible thought.
00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:16.159
And so I I really try to insulate myself from the horrors to some extent, yeah, on a personal scale, especially, like individual personal stories of people going through horrible things, it'll there's this nagging voice in my head of that might you'll be there one day.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:17.599
Or maybe have been there already.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:18.960
Yeah.
00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:20.079
Exactly.
00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:20.480
Yeah.
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:22.400
And it it makes my skin falling away.
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:23.199
I can't explain.
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:34.079
But the upside of it, the reason why this is a positive, is because I feel like that sort of radical empathy is super important for living a balanced life and living a life that is moral in a sense.
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:41.519
Looking at someone else's circumstance and having that voice in the back of your head, like, not what if that was you.
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:43.440
That will be you at some point.
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:50.239
Yeah, it radically changes the way you act if you keep it in mind and if you stay attached to that thought.
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:50.800
Yeah.
00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:53.679
So that's a positive, I'll say.
00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:58.960
The negative, I always like to tell people I'm not afraid to die.
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:10.719
And I'll add the caveat that like most people hear that and they go, okay, but if I strap you to a chair and put a gun to your head, you're gonna be talking a different story about you being afraid to die.
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:10.960
Yeah.
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:24.400
But what I can say is, from my armchair perspective, glass in one hand with an umbrella in it, shades on, I can tell you that intellectually speaking, I don't fear, I don't fear dying.
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:30.159
But I think my reasons for not fearing death are hard to articulate.
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:37.599
Like we've been at this for maybe 30 minutes or so, and I hope in the past 30 minutes I've given you an understanding of why I see it.
00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:38.079
Absolutely.
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:41.679
And why I might not see it as so sad when you die.
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:43.679
Because when you die, you're coming back.
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:45.039
That's my honest belief.
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:48.639
You're you'll be back, you'll be back in the chair sooner rather than later.
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:50.239
So people will die.
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:54.239
And of course it'll make me sad, but it can only make me so sad.
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:58.480
But it only has I like to think of it as like a status effect.
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:06.320
You'll be hit with the news someone has died and deep down, and it'll make you sad for a certain amount.
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:20.159
And I think some people they'll feed that fire with repetitive thoughts, and they'll keep that fire burning for as long as they need to keep it burning to feel what they need to feel, and eventually they'll cut off.
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:33.199
And I think maybe it's the fact that the empathy is so selfish, or maybe it's the fact that I'm missing some sort of critical component of what empathy is that like I I've heard someone die, and I can only be so sad for so long.
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:38.239
I have had people die in my life and I think about them, I remember them, yeah.
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:43.440
All lament the fact that they're not here because they would have loved this, yeah, but they're off.
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:47.199
They're it it's not it's not like they're gone, they're all doing something else.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:48.559
And I can respect that.
00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:50.559
And I don't think a lot of people can.
00:36:50.880 --> 00:37:01.920
And I think not being in a school of thought that's popular, having such an eclectic spiritual worldview, as I've now said twice, you just you can't relay.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:06.880
Yeah, it's hard to sit down with someone and be like, here's the reason I'm not that sad.
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:10.320
And so I find myself performing a little bit.
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:17.280
Like it's funny that we're having this call right now because on Friday I I had a coworker, I had a coworker die.
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:17.760
Oh wow.
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:25.119
Um, and it wasn't a coworker I was especially close with, so I don't need any condolences, but the people around me definitely did.
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:38.800
And I think I'm uh I think I'm a functioning enough social individual to to know to give condolences and know to act sad, but I don't know.
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:42.239
I don't see it as I don't see it as all that sad.
00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:44.159
Yeah, and yeah, he's gone.
00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:54.400
And the people around me would prefer him still be here, and that's their decision, and I can understand that sadness, and I can understand that mindset.
00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:56.400
And so I have empathy for them.
00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:59.039
I know they're feeling something real, I'm feeling something deep.
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:01.679
I just don't share the same sentiment.
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:07.440
So in order to interface with them, I I feel like I just put on a mask and I'm I I feel sad with them.
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:13.360
And uh I bet you if you pulled, I bet you if you polled people, that's not an uncommon experience.
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:17.519
I bet you there are plenty of people currently pretending to be sad about someone's death now.
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:23.440
Maybe pretending to be sad is not the right phrasing, but yeah, I think it gets my point across.
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:23.679
Yeah.
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:24.400
Does that make sense?
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:27.599
Yeah, I think it's uh yeah, it's I'm also trying to find the right word.
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:51.199
Because yeah, I get that you're not saying that like pretending and faking it and like in a really callous and oh, you know, all these other people are being stupid, but like just having to appear a certain way because it's the right thing to do, or or just like I think of it like like when someone is um about to open a door with a murderer behind it in a movie.
00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:56.159
You're thinking to yourself, oh my god, don't open the door, oh my god, this is horrible, don't open the door.
00:38:56.400 --> 00:39:00.000
But if you were there, you would not be saying the same things.
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:05.199
You'd be screaming at the top of your lungs, you'd be in hysterics, don't open that door, there's a killer inside there.
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:05.440
Yeah.
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:11.199
So if you're not pretending to be afraid, but you're afraid in a different sense.
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:11.599
Yeah.
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:15.119
That that fear you feel in the movie theater, that's not fake fear.
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:16.400
It's just not the same fear.
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:16.719
Yeah.
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:19.199
And I'll liken it to that as a metaphor.
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:19.599
Yeah.
00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:26.719
I think the other thing that you mentioned, and I don't necessarily know, and I'm I had it and I lost it, so we'll see if I can bring it back as we're talking about it.
00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:33.679
But when you're talking about how you don't have this fear of death, but if someone strapped you to a chair and blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:41.199
And I think the thing, yeah, I don't necessarily know if this quite works, but the thing that came to my mind is, yeah, but I don't know if those two are synonymous.
00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:44.480
And I'm not saying that you are saying it like the people who are bringing it to you.
00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:52.239
It's that doesn't seem the same to me in a way because it's I'm not afraid of it, but that doesn't mean I want it to happen right now.
00:39:52.480 --> 00:40:06.960
And I think that's maybe like the slight differentiation of, hey, like just because I say, and this is me maybe defending, maybe not defending, my dad and I have a lot of conversations, and he will say that he's not afraid of death, and I'm like, bullshit.
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:18.079
Like, um, I think there is an aspect that like I can appreciate that, yeah, I don't necessarily have fear around it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm calling for it and want it to happen because well come on.
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:19.920
Yeah, because those are two different things.
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:31.360
And so I don't know if that quite works with your example, but that's at least what came to mind was I don't think it's quite the same thing to be like, okay, let me put you in this really crazy situation.
00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:35.599
Because I've always said when I don't understand what people say they're not afraid of death.
00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:37.679
And partly it's because I've always been afraid of death.
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:39.679
So it's just it's a looming thing.
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:46.239
And if you ask someone like what they're afraid of, it's oh, heights or snakes or this or that.
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:49.440
And it's yeah, the because the outcome of it is death.
00:40:49.679 --> 00:41:03.119
But I'm maybe even seeing in this moment that it's not there's still a semantic differentiation of not being afraid of death and not necessarily calling for it or welcoming or wanting it right now.
00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:05.039
I think I'm maybe seeing that now.
00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:07.519
And I don't know if that works with what you were saying, but yeah.
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:08.880
No, yeah.
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:11.360
I'll give you I'll give you an example of what I'm saying.
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:11.920
Yeah.
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:15.039
So I work, I sell people stuff for a living.
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:16.559
I do it over the phone.
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:25.360
And one of the things I realized pretty early into my career as a salesperson is that people lie a lot.
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:32.639
If I had to pin you a number down over my phone line, at least 40 to 30% of the time people are lying.
00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:32.880
Yeah.
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:38.880
And maybe they're lying less to their friends or whatever, but it's still gotta be in the 20s.
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:39.440
Yeah.
00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:40.800
20s or 30s.
00:41:41.119 --> 00:41:45.280
30% of every sentence out of someone's mouth, there's a good chance that's a lie.
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:50.480
And a lot of it is that people lie to themselves.
00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:50.719
Yeah.
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:54.159
And they don't even realize that they are lying to themselves.
00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:56.400
And I've gotten an ear for it.
00:41:56.719 --> 00:42:06.719
There's when I say something that I can tell by the way that you said it, you have absolutely zero intention of doing what you just said.
00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:07.199
Yeah.
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:14.480
And and it struck me as interesting because I eventually heard myself do it.
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.519
And I'm well, yeah, yeah, I'll do the dishes when I get home.
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:22.639
And I the way I said it, it's as I said it, I had every intention of doing the dishes.
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:29.119
But as soon as I heard the word leave my mouth, I was like, oh, I have no intention of doing those dishes at all.
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:29.360
Yeah.
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:34.480
Because I sound exactly like a person over the phone who's telling me that he'll give me a call back.
00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:40.800
And so I think there's a lot of people who say, I'm not afraid of dying.
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:43.119
And they're saying it in that sense.
00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:44.559
They're not lying to you.
00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:44.880
Yeah.
00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:46.320
They're lying to themselves.
00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:46.960
Totally.
00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:51.440
And there's nothing that you can tell them that will make them realize that.
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:51.679
Yeah.
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:57.039
If I, if I, you know, if I was on the phone with someone and I'll give you a call back, and I'm like, I'm gonna stop you right there.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:00.800
I can tell by the way you said that, you have no intention of calling me back.
00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:03.039
You're just saying that to spare my feelings.
00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:03.519
Yeah.
00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:09.599
They probably, if they felt if they felt like defending this position, they'd be like, no, I'm not saying that.
00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:10.559
I will call you back.
00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:12.639
I'm interested, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:14.000
And they might believe those things.
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:14.400
Yeah.
00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:16.320
But they don't, that's not true.
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:20.800
So that's what I mean when I say intellectually, yeah.
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:26.000
I can paint you, I can paint you a picture of why you shouldn't be afraid of dying.
00:43:26.239 --> 00:43:32.800
And I I like to say decisions are made by emotions and justified afterwards by logic.
00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:33.280
Yeah.
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:40.639
So my decision not to be afraid of dying, in my personal opinion, is an entirely emotional one.
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:54.480
And when you ask me why I'm not afraid to die, and I give you logic behind it, that logic is just a front for the emotional belief that I shouldn't be afraid to might be a lie I'm telling myself.
00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:59.679
And I I can't hear it in my voice when I tell you I'm not afraid to die.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:06.400
whether or not that's true, but I can tell you intellectually why I should be afraid to die.
00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:06.719
Yeah.
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:07.760
Does that make sense?
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:08.320
It does.
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:08.639
Yeah.
00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:15.039
And I think one of the things when you're talking about someone telling you, oh, you know, I'll call you back or whatever.
00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:22.480
And some of it I think is also, and it plays right into what you're saying about death is it's that like you're saying, lying to yourself.
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:25.360
Like part of it is just to avoid discomfort.
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:37.679
I'm going to tell you what I think you want to hear or I'm going to, I'm going to spin a story so I don't have to feel uncomfortable saying, yeah, you know what, dude, I'm not going to call you again.
00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:41.199
I'm, I'm not going to sit with the feelings of I am afraid of death.
00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:44.239
And yeah, I think that's that's that makes a lot of sense.
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:47.599
And then I had another one there at the very end.
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:54.159
Like you said, you don't know to some extent there could be an element of that you're lying to yourself about this.
00:44:54.480 --> 00:45:02.800
And my response to that is although it would have to be on your deathbed, so that might be really hard, but let me know on your deathbed where you land.
00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:22.960
Because to some extent that's the only place that you'll really know if it's and I think that's the thing and just in faith in general, whether it's with religion or whatever your spiritual beliefs, like part of it is just taking faith and that in that moment when we do get to the end of this lifetime.
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:24.800
Yeah.
00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:25.920
Something like that.
00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:27.199
Yeah.
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:32.400
The other thing I'll say while I'm but not well I don't believe I'm afraid to die.
00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:36.159
There is something that I am a little bit afraid of when it comes to death.
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.719
I was raised Catholic.
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:39.119
Okay.
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:40.480
Not like super Catholic.
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:44.880
Like maybe we went to church every Sunday until I was about I don't know like 12.
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:45.280
Okay.
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:46.239
And then we stopped.
00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:47.599
But I I have that background.
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:48.000
Yeah.
00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:55.039
And I more than being afraid of dying, I am a little bit afraid I'm wrong.
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:58.400
I'm wrong about I'm wrong about what happens after you die.
00:45:58.480 --> 00:45:58.639
Yeah.
00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:04.000
Because I don't know if you've read the Bible but the consequences for being wrong are super direct not great.
00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:07.360
I haven't read it but from what I've heard not great.
00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:19.280
No so it's like I and and I've also heard the pitch now maybe this is what they're this is what they're going to play at the gates but I've heard the pitch for heaven.
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:20.559
I have questions.
00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:23.280
It doesn't it make sense.
00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:23.760
Yeah.
00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:38.079
And one of the things that strikes me in the Bible is there's a lot of stake put in on believing and even more so than in my opinion and I'm sure there are some Bible companies who would have a field day telling me I'm wrong.
00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:43.920
But more than being moral or ethical or any like definition of good.
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:48.000
It's believing over everything else that is really emphasized.
00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:52.719
And I even tried to come at it from the mindset of I'm just going to walk in.
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:57.199
This is the book and this is what the guy in the sky said then so you just have to accept it.
00:46:57.280 --> 00:46:59.199
You just have to take the pill and swallow it.
00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:03.599
But I'm reading it and the more I'm reading it the less I believe it.
00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:03.920
Yeah.
00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:10.000
And ah it's just if you don't believe you don't believe yeah and so if I don't believe then you can't force it.
00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:11.440
This works for nothing.
00:47:11.599 --> 00:47:23.280
Yeah exactly like I'm going to spend all this time convincing myself to believe and if I if I die tomorrow they're going to go you gave it a shot but I can tell you didn't I can tell you didn't really believe it.
00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:25.360
Because it it's you're phoning it in.
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:31.679
Yeah I read the book or at least some of it and almost none of it I read was believable.
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:43.599
So it's like I'm kind of in between a rock and a hard place for all my want to go to heaven or whatever in that moment when I was reading it and really trying to make myself a believer I'm just reading it and it doesn't sound true.
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:46.159
If I'm wrong, I'm going straight down.
00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:47.519
And that is scary.
00:47:47.599 --> 00:47:52.320
That is way more scary than anything else in as as it pertains to death in my opinion.
00:47:52.559 --> 00:48:01.840
Yeah absolutely yeah because I'm like I haven't read the Bible or I haven't really read any of the major texts but yeah it doesn't seem like a place that you'd want to go.
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:03.679
So yeah I understand that fear.
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:18.880
That's the thing I always talk about with just even with heaven like eternity I'm like yeah that's a long time but yeah it's not very often that I think about hell and eternity and that's a that's a long time and it's a really bad experience.
00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:22.639
And if you ask yourself okay what am I doing in heaven?
00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:25.920
And they go of course you're praising God all day forever.
00:48:26.239 --> 00:48:26.880
God is great.
00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:28.000
That's what you should be doing.
00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:42.800
And I think to myself I'm like are you trying to tell me the afterlife is just a bunch of saying God is great and giving each other high fives and I I'm not to minimize it not to disparage that mindset because I know I'm not giving it the best read.
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:45.039
Yeah but I I don't know.
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:47.599
It doesn't sound like I don't know.
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:57.440
I read a lot of I read a lot of stuff and especially when it came to Buddhism I'm reading and I'm nodding my head like everything in that book I recommended at the start is very believable.
00:48:57.599 --> 00:48:57.760
Yeah.
00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:02.239
And is you don't have to take many leaps to be like maybe this is true.
00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:13.920
But I feel like I feel like the the Bible emphasizes belief so hard because it's not and if some guys got down and wrote a book and they're trying to convince you know what I mean?
00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:14.159
Yeah.
00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:16.960
And I know it's a pessimistic way of thinking about it.
00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:21.519
And if I'm wrong the consequences are dire but that's the most honest read I can give.
00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:21.920
Yeah.
00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:22.719
Does that make sense?
00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:25.039
It does more than death that scares me.
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:26.639
Yeah it does make sense.
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:32.719
And I think at the end of the day it's like you also have to be true to yourself and what resonates with you.
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:51.840
Like we we get to live this life like this specific life I know even though we talked about reincarnation you whether or not something happens or doesn't happen I think we can all agree although maybe I guess maybe not maybe I'm getting myself in trouble here but this is the one time that we get to do this thing that we're doing right now.
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:53.519
And you have to be true to yourself.
00:49:53.679 --> 00:49:54.880
So yeah I totally understand.
00:49:55.679 --> 00:49:57.840
I do have one last question for you.
00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:07.360
I like to have the couple questions at the front of the episode I also like to close with a question that I ask everybody if you've listened to a more recent episode you probably know this one.
00:50:07.519 --> 00:50:12.480
What's one thing you still want to experience in this lifetime what a good question.
00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:31.119
And I did I was not expecting that what's one thing I want to experience in my lifetime I I don't know I want to experience love.
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:39.280
Not to say I I haven't I'm talking like the real like romantic struck in the heart cupid kind of love.
00:50:39.440 --> 00:51:05.440
Like I've had girlfriends before but at the very end they'll look you in the eye and they'll go did you really love me and you'll tell them of course I did because they're crying and you don't want to make them cry more but I like did I like the maybe it's just a doubt but yeah and so if if even if the only way to really know is to be like I'm heartbroken.
00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:07.440
There's nothing else this could be I'm heartbroken.
00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:08.719
My heart is shattered right now.
00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:17.280
Yeah to at least know that I've experienced it full stop no questions 100% I have that's something that I want before I die.
00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:18.079
Yeah.
00:51:18.400 --> 00:51:20.800
I think that's a I think that's a wonderful answer.
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:21.519
Thank you.
00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:38.559
Yeah I want to thank you for being willing to talk to me for the last hour and just being willing to be part of this project and it was really fun to dive into some really esoteric theoretical philosophical types approaches and even Buddhist that's at least how it struck me.
00:51:38.719 --> 00:51:42.800
So yeah I just want to thank you so much for for taking the time to do this.
00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:51.199
Absolutely and thank you for making this amazing thing that I'm now a part of I don't know if it's an amazing thing.
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:53.760
Actually I don't want to disparage because it's really that's me.
00:51:53.920 --> 00:52:05.199
If it was just me talking then I wouldn't but it's a lot of other people so I will say it is an amazing thing but it's because of all the people who are willing to participate and be a part of it and very small part because of me.
00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:06.639
Very small part.
00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:11.360
But thank you I wouldn't sell yourself too short.
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:14.480
I always do is the thing so I'm staying consistent.
00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:16.159
But yeah thank you so much.
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:20.880
I hope you have a good I guess it's late there so I hope you have a good night and definitely stay in touch.
00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:25.039
Absolutely you too 100% awesome all right take care.
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:32.000
Bye there's something that happens when someone has genuinely made peace with death real peace and belief.
00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:36.400
You can feel the difference pretty quickly into a conversation this caller has it.
00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:44.639
And spending an hour with them following the logic of how they got there the whole framework starts to feel a little less like a theory and more like something you could almost hold.
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:48.559
And then they turn around and tell you it might just all be a story they're telling themselves.
00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:50.719
That they built it to make the whole thing livable.
00:52:50.880 --> 00:52:53.599
They sit with that just as easy as everything else.
00:52:53.840 --> 00:52:56.079
I think that's the more interesting version of belief.
00:52:56.239 --> 00:53:00.000
The kind that's strong in faith but still has a little room for doubt.
00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:07.760
On my end, things are finally getting back into a good groove lots of calls happening lots of conversations outside the calls that are going places.
00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:17.280
In a few months we'll hit the 50th anonymous episode but it's also very likely to coincide with the 100th anonymous call and the two year anniversary of this podcast.
00:53:17.519 --> 00:53:22.480
Even though it's still a few months out I'm looking at how to make all these things special in some way.
00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:28.880
There's likely a new element of the podcast that will be released around that time, something that feels true to what this project is.
00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:32.239
I'm not ready to talk about it yet but I am excited about it.
00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:35.039
More soon and I'll see you next week.
00:53:35.519 --> 00:53:41.519
When we die talks exist because people have stories worth telling and most of them never get told in a way that lasts.
00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:44.480
Mostheny is my attempt to do something about that.
00:53:44.719 --> 00:53:51.039
It actually started with a guest from the show and after his interview he told me how much it meant to have something he could share with the people in his life.
00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:54.880
So he didn't have to keep repeating himself and so nothing got lost over time.
00:53:55.039 --> 00:53:58.239
I couldn't stop thinking about how many people have a version of that.
00:53:58.480 --> 00:54:00.320
Honestly all of us do.
00:54:00.559 --> 00:54:05.519
All of us have a life worth capturing and people who love us and would give anything to hear told.
00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:16.000
Demostheny is a guided conversation with me where we capture someone's life in their own words, where they come from, what made them who they are and the stories they want people they love to know.
00:54:16.159 --> 00:54:21.519
The recording is yours, private, personal something you can share with anyone you want.
00:54:21.760 --> 00:54:51.280
If someone came to mind just now even if it was yourself that's probably worth paying attention to you can learn more at Nimosy.com that's N-E-M-O-S-E-N-E.com thanks for listening to this episode of When We Dietalks these conversations don't offer answers but they do open space space to reflect to feel less alone and maybe to see things a little bit differently than before.
00:54:51.519 --> 00:54:57.199
If you'd like to explore your own beliefs out loud you can apply to be an anonymous caller at when we die talks.com.
00:54:57.440 --> 00:55:01.039
And if a full call feels like too much the voicemail is always open.
00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:08.400
Leave a message at 971-328064 and share whatever death has stirred in your life.
00:55:08.639 --> 00:55:11.440
Listener support truly helps keep this project going.
00:55:11.679 --> 00:55:14.960
If you'd like to support the podcast you'll find a link in the show notes.
00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:20.159
And as always please like share and follow every bit makes a difference.
00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:23.199
Until next time have a good life