From Breakdown to Breakthrough: The Radical Truth About Leadership & Failure | Charles McLachlan

WEBVTT
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:03.600
I realised from a very young age I was basically unemployable.
00:00:03.759 --> 00:00:05.679
I didn't want to work for other people.
00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:08.640
I wasn't suited to the sort of corporate politics.
00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:14.160
So anything I did had to be something where it was my thing.
00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:15.839
Hello, audio listener.
00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:17.280
This is your host, Lev Cribb.
00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:20.879
Thank you for choosing this episode featuring our guest, Charles McLaughlin.
00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:27.839
If you prefer video, you can also find all of our podcast episodes on YouTube or on our website at matec.com.
00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:31.600
But now I'll get out of your way and hand you over to, well, me.
00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:35.039
Hello and welcome to the Virtually Anything Goes podcast.
00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:44.880
This episode is part of our leadership story series where we speak to leaders from a variety of different backgrounds, including AI, healthcare, software, strategy, executive coaching, and others.
00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:52.399
And if you like what you hear or see in this episode, be sure to subscribe so you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes, and of course, check out our previous episodes too.
00:00:52.640 --> 00:01:01.280
Today I'm talking to Charles McLaughlin about his story into leadership, what got him to where he is today, and which obstacles he encountered along the way.
00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:05.840
But we'll also talk about how he helped others to succeed and grow in leadership.
00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:11.840
With more than 30 years of experience, Charles has helped develop an international IT services consultancy for Anderson.
00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:17.519
He built two companies from scratch and supported two companies into the Tech Fastjack 100.
00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:24.319
Charles is the founder of the CEO Growth Academy, an executive coaching company which he has been running since 2018.
00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:32.319
And under the banner of Future Perfect, Charles is building a community of portfolio executives who are taking control of the second half of their career.
00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:34.560
Charles McLaughlin, very warm welcome to you.
00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:36.000
It's wonderful to have you on the show.
00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:37.920
Great to be here.
00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:38.400
Thank you.
00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:39.760
Excellent, thank you.
00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:50.400
If this is your first time listening to the Virtually Anything Goes podcast, stick around until the very end, where I can uh turn control over to Charles, uh, where he can ask me his virtually anything goes question.
00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:54.719
This can be any question at all, and I won't know what it is until Charles asks me.
00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:56.319
Uh, so it could literally be anything.
00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:02.239
Uh the only caveat is that Charles will have to answer the same question after I have given my answer as well.
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:11.520
Uh so Charles, um, as I mentioned, with Future Perfect, you are building a community of portfolio executives who are taking control of the second half of their career.
00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:14.560
But what can you tell us about the young Charles McLaughlin?
00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:16.800
Was he a leader from a young age?
00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:19.919
I don't think so.
00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:29.840
No, I think I was always seen as somebody sitting in the background, noticing, not saying very much.
00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:34.800
And then for some reason, if you don't say very much, people think you're wise.
00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:37.919
If you think you're wise, then they'll ask your advice.
00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:44.400
And so I was never the upfront leader, but often I think I had a lot of influence.
00:02:44.719 --> 00:03:06.719
And um, I enjoyed that, you know, it wasn't very exposed, sit quietly in the corner, and then sometimes I get involved in helping people to navigate really difficult, complicated situations, and it I sort of recognized that that was a way of leading that really suited me.
00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:13.919
And you know, fast forward, we are here today, and and the young Charles McLaughlin has now had a long career.
00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:17.199
Um, what can you tell us about your journey into leadership?
00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:23.919
Was it always planned, or or were there particular forks in the road, whether they were intentional or not, that got you to where you are today?
00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:28.240
Well, I'm just going to interrupt you because I don't believe in careers anymore.
00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:43.120
So if I'd had seen this as a career, then that would suggest that at 18, when I went to university, I'd know what I'd be doing now, and all my life would have been oriented to the wonderful experience I'm having in my life now.
00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:45.599
That was absolutely not the track case.
00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:52.159
When I was 18, I didn't really know what I wanted to do, tried a few things, and then found a passion.
00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:57.039
So sorry, um, not careers, but ask the question again.
00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:00.240
Well, I suppose you know, how did you get to where you are today?
00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:05.840
Were there were there particular um avenues that you went down that perhaps were expected or unexpected?
00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:08.719
Um how did you end up where you are today?
00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:18.000
Um I think there's always been three things that have been really important to me above anything else.
00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:24.959
And the first was I realized from a very young age I was basically unemployable.
00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:28.079
Um, I didn't want to work for other people.
00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:31.680
I didn't want to, I wasn't suited to the sort of corporate politics.
00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:37.199
So anything I did had to be something where it was my thing.
00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:51.360
The second thing is that I began to realize that there is something powerful about building businesses because they have a power of multiplication.
00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:56.800
My father was an academic, he spent his whole life spending other people's money.
00:04:57.040 --> 00:05:03.279
Um my mother was a homemaker, she spent her whole life spending other people's money.
00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:13.120
She'd actually started a small business, but the only multiplication they made was to have two children, which, given they were two adults, wasn't really multiplication, it was steady stay.
00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:20.720
So there's something about business which allows a seed to grow and flourish, and from one seed you can get a hundredfold.
00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:23.439
So that has always excited me.
00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:39.040
And I think then the third sort of principle that kept me going all the way through is, and I didn't realize this until I was much older, but there's something inside me that loves teaching people, loves writing training courses.
00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:41.920
Um there's something very didactic about me.
00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:47.839
So accidentally, all the way along the way, I've ended up doing that thing.
00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:54.480
And when I got to about 50, I realized, okay, so this is the thing I love doing.
00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:55.519
Let me do more of it.
00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:57.120
But that was an accident, really.
00:05:57.279 --> 00:05:58.800
An accident waiting to happen.
00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:01.600
How did that how did that accident happen?
00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:05.439
What how did you first notice it or how did it first come across?
00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:15.759
Well, I was invited by a couple who'd founded one of the very first executive coaching and leadership development businesses in the UK.
00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:24.959
And they said, Charles, we're now ready to prepare our business for sale and retire.
00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:28.959
So will you come in and work out what we need to do?
00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:30.240
Because you know something about business.
00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:33.360
We know a lot about executive development, but you know something about business.
00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:44.720
So I came in and started doing some work, and I'd started working with them, and they said quite quickly, actually, why don't you become the CEO of this business?
00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:54.079
Because then not only can you think about the plan, the strategy, but you also implement it, and then you will propose things that you're actually going to get done.
00:06:54.720 --> 00:07:15.839
So what happened is I said, if you want me to be the CEO of this business, and I spent my whole life being a consultant and a software engineer, then to be credible in front of your clients and in front of your team, I need to go on these programs to learn what an executive coach is and how to do leadership development, how to facilitate groups.
00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:25.920
So I got this sort of free education as part of the package, and that's where I really understood for the first time how much I love teaching people.
00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:42.000
Because I could see that coaching and mentoring and this facilitated learning that happens in workshops was something I loved doing, I loved the outcome, and actually I was quite good at it.
00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:44.959
So that was a seminal transition.
00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:49.600
It's interesting how how you can fall into something perhaps when you didn't even expect it.
00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:56.959
Um when you and I first spoke about you joining me on this podcast for an episode, um, we we talked about the topic of failure.
00:07:57.120 --> 00:08:03.279
Uh, but it's not really a topic that um you would typically come across on on LinkedIn or in keynotes.
00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:08.240
Uh, it's not something that's talked about, even though we probably all have to deal with it at some stage uh of our life.
00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:11.199
Um why is that topic so important?
00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:15.600
And especially if we're here to talk about leadership, which is so often associated with success.
00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:18.160
Why is failure so important to talk about?
00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:37.919
Well, I just think we're in a world where all of the culture in every context, not just the corporate culture, is about setting ambitions, creating plans, having strategies, trying to deliver outcomes.
00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:46.799
So everything we do in our lives is about defining what success is.
00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:56.399
And we've got very good at defining what success is, and there's you know, there's whole management schools which are about getting better at defining what success is.
00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:02.639
In the charity sector, they've built bought into this whole impact story, which is again about defining success.
00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:12.320
I think we're useless at recognizing that whenever you define success, you are implicitly defining failure.
00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:32.960
And so we, but culturally, because we deny that by defining success we're defining failure, culturally have no mechanisms, mindset, way of engaging with failure at a personal, community, and corporate level.
00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:47.919
And so that disconnect, I think, is massively damaging for us personally, for the teams we work with, and for the enterprises and organizations that we take responsibility for.
00:09:48.879 --> 00:10:02.559
I was very struck um hearing a football manager whose team had not done as well as it could have done, saying, basically, we failed.
00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:10.000
We failed to achieve, we didn't play well enough, we need to do better, we got it wrong, it was useless.
00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:12.879
That's what he chose to do.
00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:15.039
Not something you hear very often.
00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:16.399
That's true.
00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:23.759
Um, and I felt actually that created a foundation for him to turn around the team that he worked with.
00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:30.399
Because he he drew a line in the sand, he didn't just continue in the pursuit of the success that they perhaps weren't achieving.
00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:32.000
Or uh, why do you feel that was the thing?
00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:38.879
Well, I think mainly because he'd created a culture within his team that we are going to acknowledge failure.
00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:46.480
We're not gonna make excuses, we're not gonna pretend it hasn't happened, we're gonna acknowledge failure, we're gonna mourn it together.
00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:53.200
I think there's something about mourning failure, because every failure is us is accompanied by a loss of what you hoped would happen.
00:10:54.000 --> 00:11:05.919
So we're gonna recognize it, go through the emotional journey of mourning it, and then we are equipped to go forward in a different way rather than being in denial.
00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:07.519
Yeah, that's interesting.
00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:17.840
And and do you do you see that um as a mindset developing in today's world, business world, or do you see that diminishing even further?
00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:18.720
I don't think so.
00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:32.879
I mean, I think I don't play football, I'm not really interested in football, but I would say that in the Premier League, the half-life of a football manager is pitiful.
00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:44.320
Their ability to stay much longer than one full season, very constrained, particularly if they're brought into sorts of outer mess.
00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:57.360
And you know, a new manager comes in, they have a relatively short honeymoon, and then they're not then everything that doesn't happen right after that is failure.
00:11:57.759 --> 00:12:27.519
And I think we're equally brutal with our politicians, they come in, and irrespective of what you think of them, within three to six months of getting there, within three to six months of getting there, they have their whole performance is measured against the article of failure, and they're condemned for failing.
00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:40.159
Yeah, their job then is to pretend they haven't failed, or to deny they failed, or say that failure is due to the people who were there before, or to claim they haven't failed as badly as the people who were there before.
00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:44.080
You know, the whole dynamic I think is is unhelpful.
00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:45.360
I I agree.
00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:54.080
Uh it reminds me of an example actually of um one of our early clients who brought us on to establish a webinar program for them.
00:12:54.320 --> 00:13:03.519
And the executive sponsor, uh the the VP of EMIA at the time, um told us, you know, asked us how long would it take?
00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:21.919
And we told them, well, probably you know, to establish it about a quarter to see first results and promotion and and so on, probably another quarter, to really realistically evaluate something and draw conclusions from specific insights, probably another quarter or two.
00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:24.000
Uh and that felt, you know, it's a year.
00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:29.039
And that felt quite daring to say, well, it's going to take a year for you to see some results.
00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:36.720
Of course, you could see some trends and results earlier on, but to really make a call on how well it's it's going, it would it would take a year.
00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:42.320
And he um he turned around and said, Well, I'll give you air cover for 18 months.
00:13:43.279 --> 00:14:01.039
And that simple sentence was transformative because we were able to not just implement and roll out and and start measuring, but we could actually draw proper conclusions because it realistically it was a year after that initial six-month that two-quarter rollout that we could actually have a full view of the data as well.
00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:07.519
And paradoxically, we were able to launch quicker because we knew we had the air cover.
00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:19.919
We weren't trying to cut corners to try and get results quickly, we were accelerating quicker at the beginning, and actually the the results were were better because they were more prepared and and more in line with a longer-term strategy.
00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:34.639
So um there is definitely benefit in uh you know allowing for longer periods of time for somebody to prove themselves because otherwise it might usher in failure by default if I'm not giving them enough time because I might cut corners.
00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:35.519
Yeah.
00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:53.919
Yeah, and it reminds me of um a podcast I used to listen to regularly called the The Comedy Controllers, and basically it was interviews with BBC people who'd been involved in the the comedy output of the BBC.
00:14:54.080 --> 00:15:21.440
And what came out again and again is in the past, producers would bring people in and they would allow them to do a series, whether it's on TV or radio, and the first series sort of might sort of kind of work or not, but they would still give them a second series because they believed that now they're on the first series, they could might be able to get the second series right.
00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:30.559
Whereas I think now the culture is very much we do a pilot, if the pilot doesn't look like it's work, we'll bin the entire project.
00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:31.519
Yeah.
00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:33.120
Feel fast.
00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:42.320
Um just taking that a step further in terms of not just what is happening within organizations, but I suppose around it as well.
00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:54.240
And yeah, there's a lot of concern currently, I think globally, really, around uh factors that affect us all, whether it's socioeconomic, political, macroeconomic, technological, health-wise.
00:15:54.639 --> 00:16:01.360
Um, and and there is a um an acronym that you told me about called VUCA, I hope I'm pronouncing that correct, VUCA.
00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:03.279
Tell us a bit more about that.
00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:22.399
Yeah, I think in some ways it's a great and simple way of explaining why there is so much failure, and why in this world defining success rigidly up front is just a fool's errand.
00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:29.200
So it stands for volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity.
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:36.879
And it was a military despitary doctrine developed by the US military post-second world war.
00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:47.519
And they realized that you know set peace battle plans in the era of Vietnam, etc., that just didn't hack it anymore.
00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:57.120
What you had to do is find a way of responding and engaging with this volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous world.
00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:20.079
And they said the way to do that is to have a very strong vision, to, in terms of complexity, develop real clarity, in terms of ambiguity, build to respond with agility, and then in terms of uncertainty, build understanding.
00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:23.759
So that's how they saw things would respond.
00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:33.440
And I think that was a relatively good way of them be able to talk to the sponsors in politics about how they're going to go about things.
00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:43.759
Um, and it made a radical difference to the way they pursued their battle plans and engaged with operations and so on and so forth.
00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:44.799
It's great.
00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:49.039
But I'm not sure that response works anymore.
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:57.279
Um because I think actually things are even more volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous than they've ever been.
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:07.359
And so what I'm suggesting is that in response to volatility, actually, as leaders, we need to express vulnerability.
00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:15.519
We need to be able to have a relationship with our teams where we say, actually, we don't have all the answers.
00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:17.519
I don't have all the answers.
00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:19.519
We don't have all the answers.
00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:30.079
So let's just accept that I don't have all the answers, and it means I will sometimes get things wrong, and sometimes things will go very badly wrong.
00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:41.680
But that's just the reality, and I want to create a culture in which people can be vulnerable to one another about what they don't know, what they can't do, and what could go wrong.
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:52.480
And then in relation to uncertainty, the most powerful thing that I think we can do is build unity of purpose.
00:18:53.839 --> 00:19:06.960
So let's all spend a lot of time and energy ensuring that irrespective of whether we have agreement about the destination, we still have unity of purpose.
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:17.839
And in relation to this complexity, endless analysis, clarity, etc., is not actually going to work.
00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:32.160
What works is engaging community, the wisdom of the crowds, if you like, the organic response of a community, rather than trying to believe that you can just analyze yourself out of the problem.
00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:46.799
And finally, the risk of responding to ambiguity with agility is you just end up constantly spinning your wheels, you're constantly doing these course corrections.
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:58.799
And what I would suggest is a better response to ambiguity is to live with an attitude of acceptance.
00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:05.759
So acceptance is an attitude that I can't know everything, I can't solve everything.
00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:10.319
There are some that not everything is an A or a B.
00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:19.440
We're living in a world where I need to accept some things are outside my control, some things are things that I can influence, and some things I have got personal agency.
00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:21.440
But that's as far as it goes.
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:27.440
And with that acceptance, actually extraordinary things start to happen.
00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:43.759
If you as a leader are offering a vulnerability, if you as a leader have brought unity of purpose with the people that you work with, if you as the leader are relying upon the richness of community to bring responses to evolving situations.
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:58.799
And if you as a leader are practicing personal acceptance and encouraging people in your community to find their own way of acceptance, then extraordinary things happen.
00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:09.519
And when I started to look at this, I realized that you know this is a very ancient wisdom.
00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:42.240
If you look at the first century AD, there was a group of people who were living in a very complex political and economic situation in a tiny little country at the edge of the Mediterranean with a Roman uh empire, a local governor, complex um religious environment, which you know would make some of the aspects of the way the Taliban operate feel very familiar.
00:21:42.720 --> 00:22:06.240
And yet, this individual group of built around him a set of people who understood the power of vulnerability, understood the power of unity of purpose, understood the power of community, and understood how to accept what was outside their control while still feeling they had agency to make a difference.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:18.640
And you know, that turned into a worldwide movement which has been adopted, which is now part of the way that about 2.3 billion people in the in the world used to think about their lives.
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:34.559
So I might make it fashionable by using VUCA and coming up with this magic framework, but the truth is this is a wisdom that was first expressed almost 2,000 years ago.
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:48.240
I mean, I I'm sure there will be l people listening to this who um are leaders, uh, who probably intellectually can relate to what you said and understand it as well.
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:54.079
And they start with a V and you talk about vulnerability, and they might say that's too radical.
00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:54.880
I can't do that.
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:57.920
I I can't be where I am today and be vulnerable.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:22:58.960
I have to be a strong leader.
00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:04.640
I can't possibly go down that route and you know whatever follows with the UCA after that, but let's just start with a V.
00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:05.519
I just can't do that.
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:08.799
What would you say to them if if they if they feel like that?
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:25.680
Um all I can do is tell the story that I experienced when I came really as a computer geek into an organization that had a hundred thousand fee-earning professionals across the world.
00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:40.799
I was brought in as a senior manager, which in those days was just one step below partner, um, and asked to perform to help that organization build a technology-based consulting practice in the UK.
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:43.279
So think about where I was.
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:53.039
I'd never been involved in professional services, I had no idea what it meant to work with a whole bunch of accountants because most of the people there were accountants by training.
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:56.240
Um, I knew nothing about consulting.
00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:17.920
Um, I knew something about writing software, and they wanted me to come in and pitch to clients, to build project teams, to create a community of software developers, to lead some of the thinking about next generation technologies in a completely alien environment because most of my life I'd been running my own business.
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:22.000
So, what could I do?
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:47.039
Well, what I could do was be sufficiently vulnerable to the people who worked with me and for me that they would help me out with the experience they'd had from being there since they were 21 years old, and I was now in my what was it, late 30s.
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:57.440
They could help me out because they understood how this thing works, they understood how to make a proposal, they understood how to monitor manage and motivate a team, they could do all these things that I couldn't do.
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:00.799
So they helped me out with all of that stuff.
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:24.799
What I did was give them the hope that we could build a world-beating technology services business from scratch, and give them the unity that we're all in this together, and actually foster a community which turned into 10,000 software developers across the professional services organization.
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:29.519
Um, and in order to nurture that community, they literally flew me around the world.
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:41.599
I had a 10-day period where I got on a plane in London, went to Japan, they stopped off in Hawaii, went to Los Angeles, Atlanta, Washington, New York, and back to London.
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:43.440
Round the world over 10 days.
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:45.279
So was a success.
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:53.039
Well, three years into this, sorry, two years into this, they said, Charles, you should be writing a proposal to become a partner.
00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:55.279
I said, Okay, well that's fine.
00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:58.960
A year later they said, You haven't done it, Charles.
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:02.000
I said, Well, I don't I don't really know what all this stuff is.
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:18.960
So again, by being vulnerable, there were people within the organization who did, in effect, the partner application for me and acted as my sort of political advocates to get me to become a partner, and I became a partner in this firm.
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:28.480
Well, was that through I Can Change the World kind of heroic leadership?
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:35.839
No, it was just me being there around them and saying, I believe in this stuff, come and believe in this stuff with me.
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:45.279
Let's build a community of people who believe this stuff too, and let's accept that there's some things we can change, something we can't, and help me out.
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:49.599
Because if I become a partner, then perhaps you can do more of the things you'd love to do.
00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:53.200
So all I can say is it worked for me.
00:26:54.240 --> 00:27:09.599
I I I guess it's really interesting listening, listening to you there, because what you're describing is that vulnerability as a way of bringing people along, which aligns with what you said on the um you know the shared vision and the shared purpose and so on as well.
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:15.599
Um and it lets people in, uh it's not a wall, it's a it's an open door, isn't it?
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:27.440
And and people will participate in that and it builds teams, I suppose, uh, which is ultimately what you did, I guess, with establishing the the Yeah, but it wasn't a strategy, I just had no other choice because I knew I couldn't do this now.
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:28.640
So absolutely.
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:55.440
And and but if if somebody's thinking perhaps they aren't on that wavelength and they are trying to look at, well, maybe I should be, and if they perhaps reflect on what hasn't worked out well, and perhaps they were more of a um walled leader as opposed to a an opening the doors and bringing people along on the journey leader, then this is an example that they can look to to say, well, actually somebody else has done it, it has worked.
00:27:55.519 --> 00:28:00.000
It wasn't just a flash in the pan, you clearly did very well with with that approach.
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:01.920
Um, and you're teaching that to others now as well.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:05.519
So there is, as you say, there is there is hope and there are other ways.
00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:36.799
Um and perhaps this is even a competitive um advantage because I suspect a lot of companies will be, especially in the current climate, driven by you know KPIs and and and targets and you know short lead times to to achieve those things, um and doing things differently because it will ultimately set you apart and give you give you an opportunity to succeed, perhaps where others who are taking all a very similar approach as each other might not be succeeding.
00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:38.160
Would you would you agree with that?
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:39.920
Yeah, I think that's true.
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:47.039
And one of the things I learned when I was involved with this coaching company was there's something called the Peter's principle.
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:52.559
And the Peter's principle is that everybody gets promoted beyond their level of competence.
00:28:52.960 --> 00:29:02.640
So the truth is every leader gets to a point where they don't know what they're doing because you get promoted until you don't know what you're doing.
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:21.839
So a strategy of vulnerability, when you get promoted to something where you don't know what you're doing, seems to me to be a much better response than to be in that place where you're there struggling with imposter syndrome when the truth is you are an imposter, you've been promoted beyond your level of competence.
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:24.079
Yeah, it's interesting.
00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:27.200
And I think I think it'll resonate with a lot of people.
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:54.960
And and you know, I suppose for anybody, we're recording this, but uh and we're not live, but anybody who is listening to this, if you're relating to this, drop as a drop as a message and tell us what you're thinking about that because uh I think it is quite challenging and and and could be quite, I would imagine, quite nerve-wracking to think, well, I might have to do things differently and I might have to step out into a space, perhaps in an uncertain economic environment where I take a an even bigger chance than I would normally do um by by taking this slightly different approach.
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:58.319
Um but I'd love to hear what people are thinking about this if you're listening to this.
00:29:58.400 --> 00:29:59.759
Um do share your thoughts with us.
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:04.960
I mean leadership during these times must be increasingly challenging.
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:07.039
There are so many different going things going on.
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:10.799
We can't really control any of them, or at least not certainly many of them.
00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:21.599
What in your professional experience have you learned, I suppose, over the years that you are now applying?
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:25.359
Have you had any early learnings that you've taken along with you in your career?
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:33.039
Or sorry, your your journey, your professional journey, that help you now, other than what you've just shared with us there?
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:38.480
And perhaps it's things that you've learned from other leaders and how they approach things.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:49.680
Well, I had a wonderful mentor when I was at Anderson who was a very experienced developer of consulting businesses.
00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:58.799
And he said to me, Charles, just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:00.480
It's not the right thing to do.
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:10.000
And I suppose what he was saying is, accept that we're in a world of the art of the possible.
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:20.319
And in a partnership context, you know, I would be coming to him, tearing what little hair I had out, and saying, but it's obvious, you know, we should be doing this.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:22.720
It doing anything else is just stupid.
00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:27.039
And he'd say, you may be right, Charles.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:38.400
In fact, you are right, but just because the other thing they're proposing to do is wrong doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do.
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:40.960
We're living in the world of the art of the impossible.
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:45.279
Um, so that was really significant for me, I think.
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:52.240
Um, because for so much of my life I just thought a bit like Spock.
00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:53.599
No, it's logical.
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:55.119
Yeah.
00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:58.640
No, it's it's it's it's fascinating.
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:05.839
Um I'm I'm as you're as you're talking, I'm trying to reflect this on myself, and I think there's a lot to think about for myself as well.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:20.480
Um we we obviously you know spoke before we uh before we started with this episode, and you've given me permission to ask you about your personal story as well, because that obviously plays a role in how you develop um professionally uh for anybody.
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:25.839
Um so I appreciate your willingness to and openness to talk about the kind of personal side of your life as well.
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:38.960
Um have you experienced failure in your personal life, which has then also impacted your professional journey and and and what personal situation would you say had the biggest impact on how you developed in leadership?
00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:54.079
And maybe if I can add one more point, have there been any situations that perhaps started out as a, on the face of it, as a bad situation, um, that then be turned into something good as a result of how it progressed?
00:32:56.319 --> 00:33:09.839
Well, I suppose there's two or three things I think of, but perhaps one of the things that made the very biggest difference to me right at the beginning of stepping into um the world of work.
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.559
So I was about 17.
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:26.000
Um, I got fed up with being at school, I'd done my exams, I'd got my university entrance, and so I said to the school, look, fed up with being at school, why don't I guess why can't I just leave early and go and get a job?
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:27.680
So I went and got a job.
00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:51.519
Um, and they put me in an aircraft hangar, which had um a nuclear reactor in one corner and two particle accelerators in the rest of the hangar, and they sat me in a room with one of these very early computers, proper computer, and said, write some software to analyze what happens from the particle acceleration.
00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:53.119
So I thought that's great.
00:33:53.440 --> 00:34:12.960
Um what actually happened was around Christmas, so yeah, shortly after Christmas, I was picked up off the streets of Oxford because I'd literally gone mad.
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:17.760
The police thought maybe I'd taken some illegal substances, but I hadn't.
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:22.320
So I was locked into a psychiatric hospital.
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:34.639
I was given massive doses of drugs, and three months later I'd come out, gone back to work, and everybody thought I could go to university and I'd be fine.
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:37.199
Um, I just had an episode, you know.
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:50.800
But what actually happened was although I got through the first year of university, I then had another episode, and it took me three years to recover from that other episode.
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:59.760
And I think in the context in which I lived, this was a massive failure.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:14.480
You know, a rising star who got an award to go to Cambridge University in a highly desirable college had just crashed and burned.
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:37.440
And the real prospect at one point in that following three years was that I'd never leave hospital and I'd become what we used to call in the hospital dribblers, people who've had so much long-term psychiatric care and um uh drug intervention that they just wander they shuffle around and dribble.
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:39.679
It's a very real possibility.
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:46.480
So, in some ways, you know, that was a personal cataclysmic failure.
00:35:46.880 --> 00:36:02.320
Um, and I think in some ways it was worse then because we don't have because we didn't in those days have the celebrities coming out and talking about their ADHD or their depression or whatever.
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:10.800
It's no longer sort of it was not at all socially acceptable to admit that you'd had a catastrophic mental breakdown.
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:21.360
Um, and even worse was to admit you'd had electric consultative therapy, because you know, isn't that what they did to the um creation of Frankenstein?
00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:26.480
You know, it's not a great advert for the rest of your life, so it was meant to be this sort of hidden secret.
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:42.719
Um and I think the most important thing it taught me was that it was an illusion for me to believe that I could solve every problem in my life by working harder or working smarter.
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:53.119
Because when I did that, I I moved myself closer and closer to another catastrophic breakdown.
00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:56.960
Um, and so what did that failure do?
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:10.639
It got me to realize that I might be clever, I might be determined, I might be hardworking, but actually that's not going to solve all the problems in my life.
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:18.079
Um and um I don't always remember that.
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:33.280
It's very easy to get back into this mindset that everything can be solved by working smarter and harder and longer, you know, all if that everything can be sorted by that.
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:38.880
And actually, for me personally, and I think generally for people, that's a recipe for disaster.
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:47.519
You you what is the alternative that you took away as that might solve this if it's not working harder and smarter or or longer?
00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:51.360
Did you did you find something that was an alternative to that?
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:59.360
Well, I think just at one level, recognizing acceptance.
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:05.440
So, you know, although I might have thought I was a superhuman spot character, I'm not.
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:35.199
So just accept my own limitations, be able to share those limitations with the people around me, and also not to necessarily feel I need to bind to somebody else's definition of success that then drives me to work harder, smarter, and longer than actually is physically, mentally, and spiritually good for me.
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:40.079
And you're not the only one, I suppose, in that space.
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:55.119
I mean, there's there's you see regularly folks on LinkedIn who post, sorry, I've been away for you know three months, six months, twelve months, uh, you know, and and share about their real burnout, uh, especially as you as you get into leadership.
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:58.320
I suppose that is that is a real prospect, isn't it?
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:00.800
It's interesting the language you use, isn't it?
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:02.960
The acceptable thing is to say burnout.
00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:15.199
You use the language burnout because in some ways that says I've been working so hard that you know, and been so fiery that I've consumed all of my resources.
00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:33.760
If they said I've had a catastrophic mental breakdown and I've been locked up in a psychiatric hospital for three months, and nine months later I'm just about finding a way to live in this world.
00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:38.480
I'm not sure that'd be such an acceptable story to put on LinkedIn.
00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:42.079
Do you think it ever will?
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:44.480
Who knows?
00:39:44.639 --> 00:40:12.719
I mean, I don't put it out on LinkedIn as part of my LinkedIn profile, but I have been prepared to put some articles out there that talk about this story because um actually I think it's important to make it acceptable, but also at some very fundamental level, don't really care what other people think about me.
00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:17.840
I just accept you know who I am, and then other people have to deal with that.
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:23.760
And if they don't want to, well at least there's somebody in my life who does.
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:30.960
You you said you said when you when we when I asked you this question, you said there were sort of two or three things that come to mind.
00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:43.599
Is that is it are there other things, other other situations that perhaps personally happened in your life that affected how you pursue your your professional success?
00:40:44.960 --> 00:41:23.519
Yeah, I mean I think this is a bit more, if you like, professional, but um I got to a stage in my life where I was wanted to seriously build a business, and I found a business partner who was five or ten years older than me, apparently had built some businesses successfully before, and we started to build this business, and we had a really interesting time over three years, and we built up this software development services business to about 50 people, and we actually created a product that we'd lined up for somebody to buy that would have given us a very nice exit and would have given me an ongoing role.
00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:31.840
And my business partner, who was the majority shareholder in the business, shut the business down.
00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:35.119
I had no ability to control it.
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:44.719
All that work that I'd done over the previous three or four years was zeroed pretty much overnight.
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:54.239
And I suppose, you know, that was a really catastrophic failure for me.
00:41:54.800 --> 00:42:10.000
Not necessarily because, you know, I didn't get the money, um, although I did end up in quite bad debt as a result, but because I'd had this vision of success, and I felt it had been taken away from me.
00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:14.000
I was just so close to getting there, and I felt it'd been taken away from me.
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:17.840
And it did affect me very badly.
00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:21.519
Um, but there were two things that I think came out of that.
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:39.360
One is now looking back on it, I realized there was something about that business partner that I hadn't realized that meant that actually, constitutionally, he was unable to allow a business to grow beyond a set of people that he could directly control.
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:41.840
So it was never going to succeed.
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:49.519
Um, and the second thing is there was a serious business dynamics that I observed, which had been really valuable to my later life.
00:42:50.000 --> 00:43:08.960
But most importantly, it created a transition point in my working life where I had the opportunity to get married, I had the opportunity to get married and become a grandfather on the same day, which was a little bit unusual.
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:22.480
Um, and I had the opportunity to find a new way of working, which ultimately brought me into this big professional services organization that I would never have ever worked for in any other circumstances.
00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:32.480
So that failure created opportunities that I wouldn't ever have had.
00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:38.800
And that failure gave me learning, which I've been able to offer to other people ever since.
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:48.559
Um, but it was still a failure, and I think the temptation for some people is to recast it as a success.
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:50.880
Well, the success was I built it to 50 people.
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:54.320
Well, the success was I learned how to do this stuff.
00:43:54.639 --> 00:44:01.119
Well, the success was, you know, um I turned myself around after it and had a successful career at Anson.
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:04.239
Well, the success was X, Y, or Z.
00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:16.079
To me, that is the fallacy of taking the criteria of success that I set out with and then redefine the criteria to turn failure into success.
00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:30.559
And I think fundamentally that's dishonest, and fundamentally, emotionally, it just messes you up because you don't get the opportunity to mourn the loss of that dream.
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:32.559
You deny that it was ever your dream.
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:59.599
Well, it's a little bit, and I'm not, you know, I'm not talking from experience here, but it's a little bit like saying to a mother whose child dies with infant Cot syndrome, well, it's all right, really, you know, you successfully gave birth to a child and you showed all your love to it, and you couldn't have done anything different.
00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:11.519
It's not a helpful conversation because what really that person needs is for you to mourn with them rather than deny the pain and failure that they are feeling.
00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:12.559
Yeah.
00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:13.519
Yeah.
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:19.039
I suppose everybody copes differently, don't they, with adverse situations?
00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:21.360
And I suspect it comes down to the personal situation.
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:26.559
People find themselves in your personality, your background, and so on as well.
00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:32.639
Are there particular steps that you take or that you follow to deal with situations like this?
00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:44.719
Whether that you've learned those from those past experiences, or if you've if you always had these these coping mechanisms, or is that something that you developed over time, or is it just on a case-by-case basis?
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:59.199
I think I've fallen into the tr all of the traps that I've described to you about how to cope badly with failure and try and redefine it as success.
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:06.079
Um all of the above have been the coping mechanisms.
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:32.559
I think where I've got to is it works for me much better to confront the failure, to come to some kind of acceptance of that failure, to grieve the failure, and then look at where I am today and imagine what I want the future to be.
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:35.440
So that's where I've come to.
00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:45.440
Um, and sometimes accepting the failure takes a very long time, sometimes grieving the failure takes a very long time.
00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:58.880
It probably took me 12 months to grieve the failure of the uh of the business that I was kicked out of, perhaps a little bit longer.
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:06.960
Um and sometimes it's really difficult to imagine the future without that success that you relied upon.
00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:28.239
It reminds me of something that I read on LinkedIn actually only a few days ago, where an agency owner um described a similar situation to what you described, where their uh business partner um had used a lot of the agency's funds, in fact, most of them had made them insolvent, and they had to close the the business down.
00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:37.440
Uh and they didn't know until because they were the financial controller as well, um, and they just didn't know until it was too late.
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:56.880
And what was interesting was not only had they built in, you know, clearly a successful uh agency, successful company, but also the comments on the post where they first of all shared that vulnerability that you know that this has happened and they had to address it obviously, um, which they didn't have to do publicly, but they felt that was the right thing to do.
00:47:56.960 --> 00:48:01.920
So describing some of that vulnerability that you mentioned, but also the situation they found themselves in.
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:13.360
But then you read the comments underneath, and you might expect customers and others to say, well, this is a massive failure, how dare you! And you should have you know uh double-checked and you should have been aware.
00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:26.800
But actually the comments were you know, you you can you can build back, you can start afresh, you know, you are the kind of person who can do this, and you know, you've done it once, or perhaps it was twice, you can do it again.
00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:37.039
Um, and I think even in the post itself, the person said, Um, you know, I may or may not be able to, but yeah, I will certainly try, but it'll it'll take me a little while, and it might not be straight away.
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:39.760
And it's I suppose that mourning period that you described there as well.
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:44.239
So I do see that what you describe reflected in in that story as well.
00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:47.280
But it it is it is daunting, isn't it?
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:56.000
Um because we we don't, as you say, we we define everything for success, not necessarily for failure, we don't necessarily plan for that side of things.
00:48:56.400 --> 00:49:03.920
Um and that's why I suppose there is there is hope for everyone, but there is also a a saying in in mining, I think it is.
00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:09.679
Um you're either a meter away from a million bucks or a million miles away from one from one buck, you know.
00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:14.079
It it's you you don't necessarily know until you get there, so you have to keep going.
00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:29.840
Um you shared how you know the the advice you take of your own experiences, but what what advice would you have for somebody else who is perhaps uncertain about their role in leadership or or kind of their uncertain about their success in leadership, whether it will happen or or whether they're having success right now.
00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:31.440
Any advice for them?
00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:41.119
Well, I think I'd start with have a long, hard think about what success means for you.
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:47.280
Because I think too often in corporate life, other people define success for us.
00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:59.280
We buy into that definition, and then we pursue a path which actually, if you get to the destination, doesn't represent success for you personally.
00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:11.679
So for many years I worked with CEOs of smaller businesses who started out life as founders, and their motivation was I have this passionate idea I want to build.
00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:16.239
I want to have more control of my life, and I want to build a business that I'm in charge of.
00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:17.679
Fantastic.
00:50:24.559 --> 00:50:34.000
Is I'd say, so if I could show you how to build your business faster, better, more surely, would you like to come and join my group?
00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:35.519
And they said yes.
00:50:36.159 --> 00:51:00.400
But actually, really, the important work that was done in that CEO group was to move from how I can get to this level of turnover or this exit capital value, to move the conversation from that to what is my real criteria of success?
00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:18.880
Is it exiting with 20 million pounds and sitting on the beach for the rest of my life, even though I've broken all my relationships with my family and um I'm completely isolated, except and the only future for me is to spend my time with other millionaires.
00:51:20.079 --> 00:51:25.280
So let's rethink what that definition of success is.
00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:29.599
And then why?
00:51:30.159 --> 00:51:32.880
Why did you start this business in the first place?
00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:46.239
For most of the people who are these founders who are passionate about an idea, the why was I want this idea to express in the world, make a difference to other people, build something new, solve a problem, whatever.
00:51:46.400 --> 00:51:49.280
So the why was actually their motivation.
00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:56.239
And they could have done that in another business, but part of their why was, and I want to do it myself.
00:51:56.480 --> 00:51:59.599
I want this to be a business that serves me.
00:51:59.920 --> 00:52:08.159
And too often what I'd seen happen was that they ended up being enslaved to the business they thought was going to be their source of freedom.
00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:18.159
So now you get them to ask the why, and you asked to get them to ask the why about the business and the why about them personally, and the why about the family that they're a part of.
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:25.039
And suddenly success can look like something radically different.
00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:33.039
And there was a guy who was brought to our group by his business partner who was really worried about him.
00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:46.880
And he'd said, No, Charles, I've tried to get him to engage with an industrial psychologist, I've tried to get him engaged with um somebody who's going to look at his health needs, I've tried to do this and that and the other.
00:52:48.239 --> 00:52:49.840
But he never will go.
00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:57.920
Maybe, I said, you could say, come to this group because it's going to help you to be more successful in building your business.
00:52:58.159 --> 00:52:59.920
So he came to the group.
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:06.239
Within eight weeks, he literally was flawed.
00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:09.920
Something had happened which meant he couldn't stand up.
00:53:10.239 --> 00:53:15.440
He went to his doctor, and the doctor said, This is just a warning sign.
00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:22.000
If you carry on the way you are, you're going to have a heart attack or a stroke and be dead.
00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:30.320
Because what you're doing is you're getting up at four o'clock in the morning to engage with your software development teams in India.
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:59.039
You're taking your daughter to school and then going to the office, and you're working all the way through the day, you're coming home for supper in the evening, and then getting up and working from eight until after midnight to deal with your clients in the US, not taking any exercise, you're eating junk food, and you're alienating your daughter and your wife, who for some reason has stayed with you.
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:07.599
Basically, you're destroying every single aspect of your emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual condition.
00:54:09.039 --> 00:54:12.559
And so that was the warning that he got from his doctor.
00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:18.239
I went and saw him and I said, Look, try this.
00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:35.039
Try taking a Christmas holiday with your wife and yourself, and turning off your phone, turning off your computer, and spending two weeks having a wonderful Christmas holiday.
00:54:36.079 --> 00:54:38.239
And so he said, okay, I'll give it a go, Charles.
00:54:38.800 --> 00:54:53.440
They went to Paris, had a great time, went to New York, had a great time, did all of the things you can do if you've got a bit of money to enjoy life in Paris and New York over Christmas, stayed over New Year's and New York, which is an experience in itself, and then came back to the UK.
00:54:53.840 --> 00:55:01.199
His team could not believe that he'd turn his phone off and hadn't answered an email for two weeks.
00:55:01.519 --> 00:55:03.679
But now he had the possibility of a life.
00:55:04.159 --> 00:55:24.639
Now he'd redefined success as getting to know his daughter, showing the love he actually had for his wife and enjoying a family life together, and showing enough love for himself that he would look after himself, start cycling to work, start eating properly, et cetera, et cetera.
00:55:24.800 --> 00:55:27.760
So, what had happened in that journey?
00:55:29.519 --> 00:55:34.800
He'd come to me with a definite success, which was about turnover and exit value of his business.
00:55:35.119 --> 00:55:48.719
And because reality had confronted him in a very dramatic way, he had an opportunity to redefine success in terms of a family life, his own health, his own future, and caring for the team that he had around him.
00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:53.440
And yes, build a business, but that wasn't the be-all and end all.
00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:06.960
And we didn't call this series the success series, we called it the leadership series.
00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:14.559
And I suppose indirectly within my thinking, there must have been an assumption of well, leadership isn't necessarily just about success.
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:17.119
There are other factors that come into it as well.
00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:18.559
It's not just commercial success.
00:56:18.719 --> 00:56:26.239
There is the human side of it, there is the failure side of it, there is the interpersonal connection, whether that's at home or at work.
00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:29.599
So there is a lot more to leadership than just success.
00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:33.840
What is it you I suppose you described it a little bit, but what is leadership to you?
00:56:33.920 --> 00:56:35.440
How how would you define it?
00:56:41.440 --> 00:57:05.599
There are so many leadership books out there that I've almost sort of become an become an anti-leadership guru because I think what I'm beginning to feel is it's not about becoming a better leader.
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:28.320
This cult of leadership is in some ways a Western post um reformation obsession with an individual being this heroic person who makes all the difference.
00:57:30.079 --> 00:57:41.599
So if I'm actually coming to a place where I think it's not helpful to talk about leadership, all of these conversations about leadership are ultimately futile.
00:57:43.119 --> 00:57:45.119
What is worth talking about?
00:57:46.320 --> 00:58:00.320
I think the place I'm coming to very slowly and with huge reluctance, um it's not about leadership, it's about how you can be a better follower.
00:58:01.119 --> 00:58:05.360
Because any leader should be accountable to somebody else.
00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:16.079
So actually, the ultimate measure of their leadership is really their capacity to be the right follower for the person they're meant to be following.
00:58:16.719 --> 00:58:28.159
So if you think about a heroic leader like Churchill, he is identified as a heroic leader in Britain during the Second World War.
00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:36.800
Look at his history before then, he was an absolute nightmare.
00:58:37.199 --> 00:58:39.599
He was a lousy follower.
00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:48.559
Um he got kicked out of his party, he couldn't say what party he's in, he went and did this campaign, um, which was a complete failure, you know.
00:58:49.599 --> 00:59:00.559
Until he was in that moment available for the nation, he demonstrated that he was a completely useless leader.
00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:19.360
And actually, what happened with, in my view, the coalition that enabled Britain to fight the Second World War is he was surrounded by people who were prepared to follow at any cost.
00:59:19.519 --> 00:59:24.719
It wasn't about him being a leader, it was about the quality of the followers that came around him.
00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:44.079
And you know, the the Prime Minister he kicked out because he'd given in to Hitler chose to come into his cabinet and follow Churchill, even though he was seen as this failure.
00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:55.360
Um and what happened there, you know, I think for Churchill, being a leader was an absolute nightmare for him.
00:59:55.440 --> 00:59:57.519
I mean, he had his own psychiatric problems.
00:59:57.599 --> 01:00:06.639
He talked about the was it the The dark dog, or whatever it was, you know, he had his own psychiatric problems, massive depression.
01:00:07.199 --> 01:00:17.679
It was actually the quality of the people who were followers that meant we won the Second World War, not the fact that Churchill was a great leader.
01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:21.360
So, yeah.
01:00:21.679 --> 01:00:22.000
Yeah.
01:00:23.199 --> 01:00:24.960
What do I think about leadership?
01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:26.960
Probably it's a delusion.
01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:30.079
Followership is what we should really be focusing on.
01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:31.280
Interesting.
01:00:31.519 --> 01:00:35.119
And even Churchill, when it was accountable to the King and to Parliament.
01:00:38.880 --> 01:01:14.960
I suppose we we uh in one of our other episodes we will talk to somebody um who is uh who studied philosophy, um considered himself to uh um an amateur philosopher, and one of the in-philosophy leadership styles that are defined within philosophy is uh servant leadership, where you know the the the the the the followers are I suppose put at a higher sort of important level of importance than the than the leader, and the leader supports their needs and is in that sense a support um uh a servant leader.
01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:31.760
Um and I've I've I've seen this in other organizations, very large organizations as well, but I suppose to degree that's what you're describing is there is a leader, you know, whether that's a a church or somebody else, but it is about the team surrounding them that are unable to do well that ultimately make the difference.
01:01:33.440 --> 01:01:37.039
I've got one question for you for which is slightly different.
01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:53.920
Um you have a tag in uh a LinkedIn tagline, and it states, making your future work with freedom, joy, and more opportunities to offer life, uh love to those around you, and that that is the key to CEO and portfolio executive development.
01:01:54.559 --> 01:01:56.639
I'll read that again because I didn't quite get it right.
01:01:56.800 --> 01:02:05.840
Making your future work with freedom, joy, and more opportunities to offer love to those around you, and that that is the key to CEO and portfolio executive development.
01:02:06.079 --> 01:02:09.920
Why do you believe this so strongly that you put it on your LinkedIn tagline?
01:02:15.599 --> 01:02:21.360
So this phrase making your future work was a sort of gift.
01:02:22.159 --> 01:02:31.440
Um, because it's partly about making your future and it's partly about your future work.
01:02:31.599 --> 01:02:34.800
So that's what's quite helpful as a sort of tagline.
01:02:36.320 --> 01:02:48.159
But freedom, joy, and love, I have a very strong personal need for freedom.
01:02:48.719 --> 01:02:53.199
I'm prepared to sacrifice an enormous amount to have personal freedom.
01:02:53.679 --> 01:02:58.000
Um, so for me it's really, really important.
01:02:59.440 --> 01:03:14.559
But also, as I started to look at corporate life, I began to feel that in many, many situations, the relationship that people have with corporate life is not freedom, it's slavery.
01:03:14.800 --> 01:03:20.400
It's not that they joyfully turn up to work every day, but actually it's a toil.
01:03:21.039 --> 01:03:32.079
And it's not a place where they feel loved or they can offer love or care to the people around them, it's a place where they're dominated by fear, which I think is sort of anti-love, if you like.
01:03:32.400 --> 01:03:57.679
So, in some ways, yes, these are three things that are really important to me, but also they're a way of saying in your corporate life, look at the dark side, look at the slavery, toil, and fear that is engulfing so much of what drives your behavior and your corporate culture.
01:03:57.840 --> 01:04:00.400
So I think that's really where it came from.
01:04:00.639 --> 01:04:05.360
Um what is joy?
01:04:05.599 --> 01:04:39.199
Well, in some ways, the joy is not about being happy, joy is being able to carry that sense of well-being despite the circumstances, and so those things really are authentically important to me, but also I suppose I put them there because they're a challenge to the corporate world that many of the people I want to support face every day.
01:04:41.519 --> 01:04:50.480
It's it's been an absolute fantastic and and insightful and challenging conversation, Charles, because it didn't at all go in the direction I thought it would.
01:04:50.639 --> 01:04:57.119
Um which is always great because you know you can you can anticipate certain things and certain outcomes and certain answers.
01:04:57.199 --> 01:05:05.440
Uh but what you shared has been has been has been different and I think really, really enjoyable to listen to and and really challenging as well.
01:05:05.519 --> 01:05:06.960
But we're not done yet, though.
01:05:07.119 --> 01:05:14.079
We do still have the virtually anything goes question, which if you're new to this podcast, is where I turn control over to Charles.
01:05:14.239 --> 01:05:17.599
Charles can ask me a question, it can be any question he likes.
01:05:17.840 --> 01:05:20.320
He hasn't shared this with me beforehand, so it'll be entirely new.
01:05:20.400 --> 01:05:22.960
When you hear it for the first time, I hear it for the first time too.
01:05:23.119 --> 01:05:25.599
Um I have to answer it no matter what it is.
01:05:25.679 --> 01:05:31.199
Um but my safety net is that Charles will have to answer the same question when I have to when I've after I've given my answer.
01:05:31.360 --> 01:05:33.519
So, Charles, this is where I strap myself in.
01:05:33.599 --> 01:05:34.880
I will hand over to you.
01:05:34.960 --> 01:05:39.039
Uh and please let me know what your virtually anything else question is.
01:05:39.920 --> 01:05:46.559
Yeah, I think what I wanted to ask you most of all is what was your most painful failure?
01:05:49.920 --> 01:05:53.679
Anywhere, uh personally or um or professionally.
01:05:54.559 --> 01:05:58.239
Most person most painful failure.
01:05:58.559 --> 01:06:00.079
You define the context.
01:06:06.320 --> 01:06:24.400
Um that's a great question.
01:06:25.119 --> 01:06:27.199
I do want to be honest, I'm just trying to think.
01:06:33.679 --> 01:06:35.440
I thought about this earlier.
01:06:35.840 --> 01:06:47.039
I think I think in my personal life, I think I've I've been blessed in the sense that I think there is not really something worth mentioning.
01:06:47.599 --> 01:07:09.360
But in in in in in in my professional life, and it could have impacted my private life as well, um, my wife and I decided to uh we we had we had our our son uh at that point we we we moved from London up to initially Manchester uh and then on to where we are now in Lancaster.
01:07:09.679 --> 01:07:13.039
Um and we had just had our um our second child.
01:07:13.280 --> 01:07:14.960
Um I'd changed jobs.
01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:22.239
Um initially I was working remotely in London and then um moved to um moved to a company in Manchester.
01:07:22.400 --> 01:07:33.920
Um and it it's it it's all seemed you know to be a great offer, uh a great opportunity, it's closer to home, uh it meant you know less travelling down to down to London.
01:07:34.320 --> 01:07:44.639
Um and it turned out that after two weeks, probably I knew already that um that was probably not the right decision to make.
01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:49.440
And it took me a long time to um find an alternative.
01:07:50.559 --> 01:07:59.599
Um so after about I think 16 months or so um with the company we came to an agreement that um it wasn't working out.
01:07:59.679 --> 01:08:05.679
And and and that in itself would have been a sort of you know a hard enough thing to admit.
01:08:05.920 --> 01:08:16.000
Yeah, you've you've upped sticks, you've moved your family, you've got a a newborn child, you've got a quite a young child there, um, and it's just not working out.
01:08:16.079 --> 01:08:17.119
You made a mistake.
01:08:17.359 --> 01:08:22.079
You, you know, in in that sense, you can define it as a as a failure.
01:08:22.239 --> 01:08:32.640
Um, and I called my wife and said, I've you know, we've we've parted ways, um, the company and and and I, and and um I'm coming home.
01:08:32.880 --> 01:08:41.680
And she said, I mean, I won't show what she said, but uh, you know, clearly there was concern over, well, okay, but we've got a a newborn and and a young child, what we're gonna do?
01:08:41.840 --> 01:08:55.680
Um, and especially because I'd been you know looking at us at an alternative, um, and I hadn't found one in a while, so there was no immediate prospect of of finding anything, you know, anything quick, any, uh, any quicker either.
01:08:55.760 --> 01:09:06.800
So um that was uh quite an uncertain time, and and that was quite painful, and that could have impacted us personally quite a lot as well, uh, financially, um, or in other ways.
01:09:07.039 --> 01:09:19.600
Um but and uh it relates a little bit back to what some of the things you said earlier, it's um it opened the opportunity to, it opened the door to do something else.
01:09:19.920 --> 01:09:40.159
And what that other thing was, this was in 2016, was I started this business that I run now, um, where we now help you know our clients, where we um have a great team, um, and that's fulfilled me more than any previous role really has because it is something that I started and um that we continue to build together as a team.
01:09:40.319 --> 01:09:44.239
So it did lead to something else that I probably would have not done otherwise.
01:09:44.399 --> 01:09:52.479
Um so out of that that painful experience, um, and it was painful for a while, um, came something that was that was good ultimately.
01:09:52.720 --> 01:10:04.000
Um but I think that was probably the most painful bit because it was so uncertain and and you know there were dependencies that um you worry about, don't you, as a father and and and as a as a husband as well.
01:10:04.159 --> 01:10:09.520
So that's um that's probably something that you know you will probably not ever really forget.
01:10:09.600 --> 01:10:15.520
You will learn to live with it and it's fine and it's in it in in the past, but you know, it'll always always be there and and and present in your mind.
01:10:15.600 --> 01:10:19.359
So I think that's probably the one that um that springs to mind for that question.
01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:25.840
Um thanks for asking that.
01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:30.720
It's um it's it's it's uh I mean I've I've I've told the story before, but probably not ever so publicly.
01:10:30.800 --> 01:10:33.680
So um uh perhaps now is the right now is the right time.
01:10:33.840 --> 01:10:35.680
Uh let me turn that question over to you.
01:10:35.840 --> 01:10:39.359
What's uh what's been your most painful failure?
01:10:41.439 --> 01:10:48.960
I think I mentioned to you the fact that I got drawn into this coach training executive development business.
01:10:49.359 --> 01:10:52.159
And I thought this was the dream come true.
01:10:52.399 --> 01:10:52.720
Yeah.
01:10:53.039 --> 01:10:56.000
Put in as a CEO, I'd never been a CEO before.
01:10:56.319 --> 01:11:02.000
I absolutely believed in the product, I absolutely believed in the mythology, I thought there was huge potential.
01:11:02.159 --> 01:11:06.079
It was the beginning of the birth of this whole coaching industry.
01:11:06.159 --> 01:11:12.000
You know, they they they'd got there five or ten years before anybody else, and it was just about to explode.
01:11:12.319 --> 01:11:16.960
Um, and I thought, Charles, you really hit the jackpot this time.
01:11:18.960 --> 01:11:25.600
Um but there were there was two things going on that became more and more obvious.
01:11:25.760 --> 01:11:34.239
One was this wasn't a business ready for sale, this is a business that needed radical turnaround.
01:11:35.279 --> 01:11:37.520
So I set two and turned it around.
01:11:37.600 --> 01:11:38.399
That's fine.
01:11:38.640 --> 01:11:44.560
Um rebuilt the products, rebuilt the cash flow, rebuilt the capital, rebuilt the team.
01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:46.640
Great.
01:11:48.079 --> 01:11:56.319
But the second thing that I hadn't realized and hadn't really taken account of was this was a family business.
01:11:56.479 --> 01:12:01.600
I thought I knew what it was like to be in a partnership business, that's fine.
01:12:01.680 --> 01:12:04.560
And I sort of realized the do's and don'ts of this.
01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:13.039
I'd worked in a in a small entrepreneurial business with a determined leader, so I sort of thought I knew how that worked.
01:12:14.239 --> 01:12:18.319
But I was completely blindsided by the what was that this was a family business.
01:12:18.399 --> 01:12:31.439
And when I mean it was a family business, the founder, the sort of knowledge leader who'd started the business, had brought her husband in to be the sort of head of operations and head of finance.
01:12:32.319 --> 01:12:40.479
The woman who was the receptionist and did the books was the woman who'd been the childminder for their children.
01:12:40.880 --> 01:12:44.239
Wonderful woman, but you know, family connection.
01:12:45.279 --> 01:12:53.119
In the office, the person who did all of the website development was actually their son.
01:12:55.439 --> 01:12:59.680
The woman who did all the CRM was the girlfriend of that son.
01:13:01.039 --> 01:13:10.479
Within the office, they were also providing a facility for their other son to build an IT services business, so we're giving them free space.
01:13:11.359 --> 01:13:19.199
And then finally, the thing which completely blindsided me was there was another, I suppose I call them partners.
01:13:19.359 --> 01:13:23.520
There were these four key people who built the business together who were like partners.
01:13:23.760 --> 01:13:36.239
One of them was um about 15 years, perhaps 20 years younger than the founders, and he'd in effect become their adopted son.
01:13:36.319 --> 01:13:48.800
They were prepared to countenance all sorts of misbehavior and all sorts of shenanigans and still hold him tight as their adopted son.
01:13:49.199 --> 01:13:55.600
Not a formal arrangement, but from a sort of relational point of view, he had all of the aspects of an adopted son.
01:13:55.840 --> 01:14:12.239
So when I wrong-footed myself and did something that has upset this adopted son, then I didn't realize that that was going to be the reason I got kicked out of this business.
01:14:12.479 --> 01:14:21.119
So I thought I'd done a great job, restored the business, created the possibilities for a real future, filled the business book with a business, the business with a book of business.
01:14:21.279 --> 01:14:31.600
I came into the office on a Monday morning, I was given a black bin liner and told put my belongings in it and leave, hand all my keys back and leave.
01:14:32.079 --> 01:14:33.840
So that was pretty painful.
01:14:35.279 --> 01:14:43.920
But worse than that, they then wouldn't pay me the money they owed me for about six months' wages.
01:14:44.159 --> 01:14:46.800
So I went out the door with no money.
01:14:47.039 --> 01:14:54.800
And then I had a very painful 18-month period where we were living in central London with almost no money.
01:14:55.039 --> 01:15:01.119
Um, in fact, we had to move out of a flat to a room in a shared house.
01:15:01.359 --> 01:15:11.199
And my wife said, you know, after I hadn't got any work for a while, because I shut down my network by doing this full-time job, Charles, at least go and try and get a job at McDonald's.
01:15:11.279 --> 01:15:13.119
You know, get out there and earn something.
01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:19.439
So dutifully I filled in my uh application form for McDonald's, wouldn't even get an interview.
01:15:19.600 --> 01:15:22.560
Well, okay, you can't get a job at McDonald's.
01:15:22.800 --> 01:15:25.920
Go go and find a pub that's looking for somebody and go and work behind the bar.
01:15:26.079 --> 01:15:33.439
So I went to this pub, they'd been advertising a job, went in there, said, you know, very happy to work behind the bar.
01:15:33.600 --> 01:15:34.560
What do I need to do?
01:15:34.720 --> 01:15:38.720
And they said, You're too old to work in this pub.
01:15:40.640 --> 01:15:47.520
So then she said, Well, okay, you might be too old to work in a job in the pub, you might be disqualified from working at McDonald's.
01:15:47.600 --> 01:15:49.680
There's a sandwich shop open just down the road.
01:15:49.920 --> 01:15:54.479
Go there, and they're looking for somebody to have an interview with them.
01:15:54.640 --> 01:16:02.239
So I went and had an interview, and they said, Yep, okay, we'll give you a trial session, which basically means you go and work for them for a morning, and if they like you, they'll give you a joke.
01:16:02.479 --> 01:16:04.399
So I went there and I worked for them in the morning.
01:16:04.560 --> 01:16:07.760
My job was cutting up lettuce with a very sharp knife.
01:16:08.560 --> 01:16:14.079
Didn't sound too demanding, except I cut my finger, bled all over the lettuce, and was not invited back.
01:16:14.399 --> 01:16:16.079
So there I was.
01:16:16.399 --> 01:16:34.720
Not only had I been sacked from this job that was, I thought, the job of a lifetime, but also had failed to be able to provide for my family, and I couldn't even get a job at McDonald's, or pull a pipe behind a bar, or cut up lettuce for a sandwich job.
01:16:34.960 --> 01:16:37.600
So, yeah, that was very, very painful.
01:16:39.680 --> 01:16:41.600
But you overcame it.
01:16:43.039 --> 01:16:44.159
I got through it.
01:16:44.800 --> 01:16:46.640
I don't think I overcame it, I got through it.
01:16:46.800 --> 01:16:48.800
Something, something then turned up.
01:16:49.039 --> 01:16:49.279
Yeah.
01:16:49.520 --> 01:16:51.199
But I don't think I overcame it.
01:16:51.359 --> 01:16:53.840
I mean, it just something turned up.
01:16:54.000 --> 01:16:54.960
The next thing happened.
01:16:55.199 --> 01:16:55.840
Yeah.
01:16:56.399 --> 01:16:58.880
Well, thanks for sharing that and being so open.
01:16:59.039 --> 01:17:04.800
And you you've been you've been open and and honest throughout this entire conversation, which I appreciate.
01:17:04.880 --> 01:17:11.039
Um, and I think it's, as I said at the start, it's given us a a direction for this conversation that I wasn't anticipating.
01:17:11.199 --> 01:17:18.880
Uh, it has made it more uh excit uh interesting um you know to to listen to, to think about, to be challenged by.
01:17:19.039 --> 01:17:21.920
So I hope it's been the same for our listeners as well.
01:17:22.000 --> 01:17:23.600
Um and I really appreciate you being on.
01:17:23.680 --> 01:17:25.279
Uh, thank you for joining us on this episode.
01:17:25.439 --> 01:17:27.920
How can people get in touch with you if they'd like to talk to you?
01:17:28.239 --> 01:17:32.880
Well, I think the first thing I would say is don't ever buy a used car from this man.
01:17:34.239 --> 01:17:35.920
That's that's not a great deal.
01:17:36.079 --> 01:17:46.399
But if people are interested in what I do, then the simplest thing is to find me on LinkedIn, Charles underscore McLaughlin, or to look for portfolioexecutive.biz.
01:17:47.039 --> 01:17:50.640
And there's an opportunity to connect with me and talk to me through that.
01:17:50.880 --> 01:18:01.600
But yeah, it's been great to be here and to see how you're able to create an opportunity for I think for me to say things I wouldn't normally say to anybody, actually.
01:18:02.319 --> 01:18:07.039
I'm pleased to hear it, and I'm pleased you did, because um I think there's a lot of things anybody can take away from it.
01:18:07.119 --> 01:18:08.560
And uh I really appreciate you being on.
01:18:08.720 --> 01:18:15.680
And if uh as a listener, you uh this was your first episode, please subscribe so you missed um don't miss any of the upcoming episodes.
01:18:15.840 --> 01:18:22.159
And of course, there are more episodes also on mate to see.com um or search for the virtually anything goes podcast.
01:18:22.319 --> 01:18:28.000
But um, for now, Charles, thank you again, and of course, thank you to our audience for watching and listening as well.
01:18:28.079 --> 01:18:32.720
Uh, we hope that you'll join us for another episode at some point soon um and you know where to find them.
01:18:32.960 --> 01:18:40.239
In the meantime, thank you very much and take care of the joining us on this podcast.
01:18:40.479 --> 01:18:43.119
We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did.
01:18:44.159 --> 01:18:50.640
For other interesting topics, go to your favourite podcast platform or watch the video versions on YouTube.
01:18:51.039 --> 01:18:54.079
Just search the virtually anything goes podcast.
01:18:54.399 --> 01:18:55.600
See you next time.