Your Interview Questions Sound Good — But They're Not Predicting Who Will Actually Perform

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So if you've ever walked out in an interview wondering
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what just happened, or if you're a hiring manager who
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keeps interviewing candidates but still struggles to pick the right person,
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this episode is for you. Today we're going to expose
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soy most job interviews don't actually predict success on the job,
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and what both candidates and employers can do to make
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this process far more meaningful.
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David Cohen is back.
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He's the founder of DS Cohen and Associates, and he
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helps organizations improve leadership, hiring, and workplace performance. He's written
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a few books, one of which is behind Me called
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Selecting the Best, And today we're going to do something
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a little bit different. So we're going to be doing
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a mock interview where I'm preparing for an interview, David's
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going to interview me, and then we're going to talk
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about what works and what doesn't in the hopes that
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we can help anyone out there in organizations in these
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roles with the hiring process so that you can have
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a really successful work.
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David, it's really good to see you.
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Great to see you again.
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Yeah, we were just talking about the weather and how.
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We're done with this, It's like Canadians, we put up
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with winter for half of the half of the year.
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It feels like like it's cold.
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It's cold again, but we've got a teaser where it
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was really warm for a few days. So we'll see
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what happens next. You never know.
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It kind of sounds like spring.
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Yep, and it was feeling like spring. But it's going
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to snow later today.
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So today you're going to be interviewing me, So say,
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what what is the passion or thought behind this? What
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are you hoping for the audience to get out of
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this episode.
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I'm hoping that the audience will get two messages. First,
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messages for the hiring manager that a lot of these
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classic questions will go through in the beginning, Really are
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you useless? They don't give any information of how the
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person will actually perform in the job, but they're almost
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like been injected into hiring managers that they feel they
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have to ask them and people are prepared for them.
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Well they're gonna So that's one aspect. The other aspect
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is those who are going for interviews. Interviews are not easy,
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but they're not going to go away. I don't care
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how advanced day I might get. When it comes down
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to it, somebody is going to work with somebody, they've
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got to interview each other, either face the face or virtually.
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And so I also hope that the candidates will get
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something out of this on how to better answer questions
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and how to what is the authenticity of being honest.
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We'll give them a position where they'll be happy, not
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just make money, so we can address both of those,
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so it benefits both the hiring manager and the candidate.
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Beautiful, I love that. So I guess we can begin.
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So I'm going to be interviewing preparing for an interview,
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and you're going to interview me.
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So where do we begin?
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We begin? Thank you for coming in for the interview today.
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I really appreciate it. Let's get into it. Let's start
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with the question of what are your sprints? Lisa.
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Well, I work really well under pressure.
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I am really motivated, and I work really well in
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a team environment, well organized, and I come from a
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small town and I was brought up to work really
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really hard, and so you're going to you.
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Can count on me. I'll be on time.
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I'm going to be showing up every day, and I'm
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really eager to learn.
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That sounds great, But on the other hand, and what
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are some of the areas that either people you work
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with or your manager would tell me? Are your opportunities
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for development or your weaknesses?
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Probably being really hard on myself, and so I typically
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work really, really hard and strive for perfectionism, which can
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be a strength but also a really big weakness.
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So I think that would be the biggest one.
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Okay, so let's take a time out and analyze what
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you just said this. They both sound great and they're classic,
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and people that are now going on AI and asking
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AI how do I answer these questions? And AI would
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come up with something very similar, Well, what did I
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learn from that? Other than you come from a small town.
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Does it mean that you came from a small town
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that you have a good work ethic? Are the people
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from small towns that don't have good work ethics? You
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say you're well organized, you say you're on time, but
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you also know that's why I want to hear, but
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I have no proof that that's true. And you did
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a very good job with the weakness because I'm a perfectionist,
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and who doesn't like a perfectionist? I mean a perfectionist
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that's great. I can deal with that, all right. So
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that's what people do. They turn their weaknesses into strainths,
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and their strengths are you know, in both cases, I
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don't know if they're true or not. They might be,
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but reality is, you the candidate, are telling me what
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I want to hear or what you think I want
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to hear. As a result of that, excuse me, but sorry,
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result of that, people actually believe it because you say
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it with passion, you say it with conviction, you have
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a good tone in your voice. So I'm being giving
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you the benefit of doubt because I have bias. You
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walk into the room, you look good, you sound good,
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you seem prepared, you're confident. So therefore, and maybe I'm
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from a small town also, which I am, But therefore
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that's okay, we have something in common. None of that
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matters as far as predicting your success. So my word
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of advice to those who are going in for interviews
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is to do exactly what you did. My word of
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advice to those who are hiring is never ever use
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that question because it doesn't tell you anything. That question
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is a waste of time. Now, my other favorite question
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is where do you see yourself? In five years where
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I was going to be in five years. I might
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know where I want to be. I might know where
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other people want me to be in five years, But
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in reality, I don't know if tomorrow I'm going to
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win the lottery. I don't know if tomorrow their job
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is going to come up, which is more interesting, I
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don't know if I am going to change my mind
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they want to pursue a different career.
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Which is something you don't say in an interview.
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No, but you don't want to say any of that.
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But also that would be honest. But some people aren't honest.
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They say, oh, you know, I see myself and growing
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in the position, and you know, advancing and becoming more
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knowledgeable in the field and all that stuff. But it
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doesn't mean anything because that's just what they're saying. It
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doesn't mean that that's what they want to do. That's
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the fact. If I look at their resume and I
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see they've had two separate careers, okay already, I don't
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know if they're going to stay here for more than
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five years. And right now, the statistics say that most
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people that are entering the workforce, if they can find
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the job, will probably change jobs within two to five
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years anyhow, So what do you do to prevent that
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from happening? Because you want to hire somebody's going to
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stay there a long time. So you've got to hire
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somebody who fits your organization's culture, which we'll talk about later,
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and also fits your co organization's purpose because once they
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feel they fit the culture, they fit the purpose, they're
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contributing to something bigger than themselves a long time. So
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let's go to another question. Now, this is a this
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is a fun question which people used to ask. It's
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not as asked as much as anymore that they used
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to ask. But on your way to the interview this morning,
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you drove by a number of places because to get
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here you had to go through the suburbs. How many
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pink garage stores did you see?
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Okay? That's interesting? So I saw.
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One one good makeup because there aren't any see Okay. Now,
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the other question, which was used for years is how
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many ping pong balls or marbles or something can fit
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into a forty two seat school bus?
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Oh my god, me and numbers and figuring that out
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are terrible. I've never been good at those guessing games
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where they have jars full of pennies and you have
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to guess how many are in there. I wouldn't even
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have a clue on where to start a forty eight
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seat yellow school bus.
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Oh my god, I don't know millions.
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Yeah, well here's the problem. It doesn't matter because it's
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not a relevant question. Yeah, it's not a relevant question
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to your thinking skills. It throws you off like all
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of a sudden. Especially you and I who are you know,
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math challenged, might find that very difficult one to think through. Well,
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you know, what's the square footage or inches of the
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school bus that's not occupied, and how many ping pong
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balls fit into a square foot and then multiply that
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out and we can figure it out. Maybe they want
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to understand if you know, the logic behind something, But
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it's a question that's not relevant. The other question, which
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I call the Barbara Walters question, was the one that
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she would ask all the movie stars when she did
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her interviews for the leading contenders for the Oscars before
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the Oscar Show is what tree would you be? If
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you could be a tree? And or I have I
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know a senior executive that he would ask the question,
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what vegetable would you be? And if the person says
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something which was everybody thinks is a vegetable, but it's
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really a fruit. They would he would say, well that's
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you know, to himself, well they don't know. That would
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be a knockout question for him. And my favorite one
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of how people make decisions around hiring that have no
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relevance to the job is a CEO that used to
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take out his senior candidates for dinner and if they
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put salt on the food before they tasted it, he
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figured they want a risk taker and he wouldn't hire them.
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The problem was is that the search firm had figured
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that out, so it told everybody not to put salt on.
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So all of a sudden he thought that the search
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order was doing a better job of finding better candidates
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because nobody was salting their food. I actually you gave
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that example once at a comfort somebody came up to
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me and said, oh, you know, my ceo. And so
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those are questions which you got to think. You got
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to ask questions that you have a finite amount of time.
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You got to find out does the person have the skill,
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the knowledge, the experience, perhaps the certification or education, and
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do they have the behaviors that are going to make
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them successful. Now today's marketplace, we're looking at skills. Everybody's
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talking about skills, hiring for skills. Again, here's the problem.
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Skills make you capable to do the job. I can
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do the job. Behaviors say will you do the job?
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So it's competencies. It's capability times behavior equals competency. Competency
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do the job? Is I have the behaviors, which means
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I have the will, I have the attitude I can
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do the job. And the skills is I have the
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competence to do the job. I have the capability to
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do the job. So the problem is a lot of
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people when they do their calculation of the scores, they'll say,
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here's the skills of knowledge. They got let's say ninety
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out of one hundred on that, and then here's the behaviors.
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They got twenty out of one hundred on that. So
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now they have one hundred and ten. Right, all right,
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one hundred and ten. That's great. Well, let's say they
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are low on the skills. They got a fifty, and
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they got a fifty on the behavior, so they have
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one hundred. So is that one hundred better than one
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hundred and ten? And the way I've learned to look
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at I used to think of it because I am
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math challenged. I used to put up an equation that
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says skills plus behaviors equals competency. And I was doing
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this with a bunch of NBA students and one young
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man came up to me and says he got the
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equation wrong. And I said, okay, what do you mean
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by that? And he says, it's a times. It's skills
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times behaviors equals competency because if you are zero on behavior,
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it doesn't matter how good you are being able to
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do the job, you won't do it. And he was
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so right. So think of it as an equation. Think
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of it, do they have enough of the skills times
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the behaviors? Do they have the score? Because the person
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at fifty to fifty versus ten ninety, the person at
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fifty to fifty is going to do a hell of a
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lot better. And so think of it that way in
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order to find out does this person really have the
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fit to the job. So that's, you know, to me,
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why we have to look at it now. So people
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are going to say, okay, so how do I find it?
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So they're going to say ask you a question. The
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question let's say, tell me, you know, it is common
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for us to have you're going into a manager position,
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and because we have a very verse workforce, people come
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from different places, different backgrounds, and often there's tension in
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the workplace. Tell me how you would work with people
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from different cultures, different backgrounds if there was tension. What
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would you do in order to improve upon the situation?
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You get people work together.
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I've actually been asked this one before. So I would
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speak to.
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Each individual individually, and then I would get the people
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that have tension between them into a room together and
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sit down and facilitate a conversation. Because the human on
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human aspect seems to diffuse conflict versus if you don't have.
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Them speak to each other, what else would you do?
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I would get it.
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Like wanting to find a full understanding of where they're
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coming from. So yeah, maybe do a little bit of
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research into their cultures.
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Perhaps talk to the rest of the team.
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So you talk to the rest of the team, you'd
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find a little bit about their culture, You talk to them,
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and then what would happen?
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Then then I would put them in a room together.
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If there was a conflict between two or more people,
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I would get them in a room together so we
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could have a discussion to talk about the conflict, to
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see what is actually happening.
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Good answer, I mean. The problem is it's all would have,
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could have, or should have. There's no evidence that you've
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actually done that right. And that's the problem with hypothetical
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or situational questions. Most people we interview have already done
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very well at school or have had previous work experience,
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or even if they haven't had previous work experience, they've
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had life experiences where they've worked in small groups, volunteer groups,
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where people have had differences, and they can say what
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they in theory would do, it doesn't mean you've done it.
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My favorite example of that is a company, large manufacturing company,
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Heavy Manufacturing out in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia, and they
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have on every in the safety department. They had a requirement,
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a skill, a certification that everybody had to pass the
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first aid course at Saint John's Ambulance and if they
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didn't have the certification from Saint John's Ambulance, they couldn't
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get the job. It was a factor that was on
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the checklist. So we did I did a workshop on
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behavioral interviewing for the management level. They said, first line
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supervisors are doing hiring, should take it, but they'll have
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the option of not doing behavioral interviewing because they had
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previously been through another interview workshop which was mostly skill
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and knowledge focused, and they felt they were doing very well.
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So I come to the plant one day and this manager,
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who very nicely but sternly said behavioral interviewing was too
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much time. It takes too much time. He couldn't do it.
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He was really successful with the traditional interviewing. Leave me alone.
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So he approaches me and kind of like sheepishly, says,
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I only do behavioral interviewing now. And I said, what happened?
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And he said, I interviewed this young person who came
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in and he had the Saint John's Ambulance ser vacation.
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It was recent. I asked them a few hypothetical questions
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of what he would do, and then I get a
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phone call at two thirty in the morning from the plant.
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Then the overnight shift there'd been an accident, and I
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get up, I go to work. I see what's going on,
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and everything seemed to be okay. Somebody had done something
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that off ripped a part of their arm in one
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of the machines because they weren't being safe. And I said,
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thought that I had the Saint John's ambulance person there,
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that'd be great. And I looked around and he wasn't there,
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And I said, what happened? They said, well, we actually
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had two accidents. So and so was injured and so
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and so the Saint John's ambulance. The safety guy passed
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out when he saw so much blood.
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Did you have to fight as So?
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I said, wait a second, what do you mean. He said, yeah,
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he passed down. I never asked them, have you, you know,
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describe a recent time you've been in a situation where
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there was a significant injury that included a lot of blood.
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He would have told me he passed out, but I
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didn't know that. So I said, why did this happen? Why?
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You know, like supposedly the response was so immediate. The
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guy's arm was saved. They said, that summer student who
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cleaning the floor and doing some other stuff, he did it.
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He was the one who responded instantaneously and did all
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the right things. So I said to the first aid guys,
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the first responders, I said, you know, like, what do
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you do? They explained. I went over to him and
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I asked him, I said, why did you you know?
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You knew what to do? I never even thought of
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asking you in the interview, but how did you learn that?
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And he says, it's Nova Scotia. Well, we have hunting
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season and fishing season. There are two seasons. I've been
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going out to something like ten years old. That was
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a minor injury. I knew exactly what to do, right
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it is? I only ask behavioral questions out I don't
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have the certification. You don't have the certification. Tell me
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about a recent time where you had to deal with
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a violent injury that caused bodily harm. And he said,
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ninety nine percent of the people have first Staid certification
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have never dealt with it. So I don't know how
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they're actually going to respond in that situation indectly. So
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I wait and asked, like I asked. When we talk
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about this at an interview course, I teach I talk
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about how many of you have first staid training, how
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many of you have CPR. So if you were shopping
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them all and somebody fell down and was having an
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art attack, would you jump in and help them out
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because you know it in theory. But when you have
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to do it, especially with a total stranger, to save
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their life, will you do it? I get a lot
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of Well, now that you think about it, maybe not.
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So it's about have you actually done it versus what
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do you do? In theory? You reads great, but it's
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better than not knowing what to do at all. So
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in the research of the differences types of interview questions,
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the traditional interview question, which is just what are your likes, dislikes,
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what do you want to be when you grow up,
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et cetera, etc. Those kinds of questions only give you
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about thirteen percent of the information you need to make
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an accurate higher situational questions improve that significantly to about
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thirty five percent. Behavioral questions increase that depending on the
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quality of the behavioral question, anywhere's between fifty three and
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seventy percent of the information you need. Now, behavioral interviewing
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is not perfect. You're going to make mistakes, but it
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gives you odds that if I was a gambling person,
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I'd rather bet with seventy percent in my favor than
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thirteen percent in my favor. So let's go to the
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next question, see how we do now, tell me about
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our recent time when you were working with somebody who
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was preventing the team from making progress.
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Interesting, I was working with a person in a team environment.
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I actually used to work with a John abuliam Sali
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ran their therapy dog program for a really long time
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in my city, and so I'm pulling an example from there.
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And we had a group activity, but one person felt
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really kind of know it all like and didn't want
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to give anyone else essentially the floor to speak their
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profession and to lead in their own way.
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So it was like someone.
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Who was really I guess I want to say, egotistical
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that was preventing the team from shining because they needed
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to be the center of attention.
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So what was what happened next? What happened? That's the situation?
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What was if I were flying the wall watching your behavior,
385
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watching your actions, what do I see you doing?
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So I went and spoke to each person and took
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lead of the situation and got everyone kind of to
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participate in their own way by taking control role of
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the environment. And then I spoke to that person and
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00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:08.200
made them aware of what they were doing because they
391
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it turned out weren't even aware of what they were doing.
392
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They were just so used to taking control of situations
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being in a leadership type role. So yeah, just gaining
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that better understanding, I feel really helped.
395
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:27.200
When you approach that person, how do you approach them?
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When I approached that person, well, I approached them very
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kind like, but assertive. So it was I pulled them
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out to another room so I could.
399
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:41.839
Talk to them in private.
400
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:46.359
And what was the reaction.
401
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:51.960
They were a little shocked, a little embarrassed. There was
402
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:55.960
a little bit of shame, but also you know, just
403
00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:58.079
like someone's a little guarded.
404
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:01.839
So how do you get past it? What do you
405
00:26:01.880 --> 00:26:02.279
do next?
406
00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:05.920
And so we just discussed it, and I talked to
407
00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:10.839
them about maybe they can't couldn't see their own behavior,
408
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:14.200
and that's why I'm here as the group leader to
409
00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:18.759
help everyone function as a team. And I normalized it
410
00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:22.119
and just made them feel like they didn't do anything wrong,
411
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.119
but I acknowledged that in order to be successful, we
412
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need to make some changes.
413
00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:30.960
And what was what happened the next time there was
414
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a meeting or group meeting.
415
00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:38.440
The next time there's a group meeting, everything was a
416
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little bit awkward, but like moving towards success. So we
417
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.200
slowly started changing the way things went, but the situation
418
00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:48.480
didn't diffuse in that moment. It was like a continuous
419
00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:52.119
so we had to continue to work on it.
420
00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:57.359
And if I wanted to, you know, in the in
421
00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:00.160
the beginning of the interview, we told you that there
422
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:02.400
might be times that we want references from in this
423
00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:05.799
within the stories in order to validate it from their perspective,
424
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what you did? Could you make please an arrangement for
425
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:12.079
me to talk to this individual that you helped.
426
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:17.079
No, he disappeared, I'm just kidding. Yes, absolutely.
427
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:22.440
What reaction did you get from the team members?
428
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:26.519
Well, I reaction did I get from the team members?
429
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:31.759
The team members were really grateful, like they really felt
430
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:36.440
seen and because before then this person would make them
431
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.960
feel like they were invisible just because of their presence.
432
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:44.000
So yeah, it was really it was impactful.
433
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:50.559
Okay, So that's a behavioral question with behavioral answers, I feel,
434
00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:56.279
how do you feel about that and your internal feeling
435
00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:59.839
about answering that versus the one about likes and dislikes
436
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:03.039
and how many ping pong walls and what would you
437
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:08.799
do with what's going on inside of you? Comparing your
438
00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:12.880
answer to the behavioral question versus the previous questions.
439
00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:13.839
MM hmmm.
440
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:17.880
Yeah, that makes a big difference because those are all
441
00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:19.960
Like you said, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what
442
00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:23.880
my favorite, what my best strengths are. If I'm not
443
00:28:24.119 --> 00:28:28.000
going to behave that way in this office setting, then
444
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:29.359
it's pointless.
445
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:30.680
It's useless.
446
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.920
And I know I threw you off, But how did
447
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:37.440
feel what I said to you? I'd like to speak
448
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:38.119
to that person.
449
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.680
Well, in my mind, if I was lying, you would
450
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:47.079
have caught me in that lie. So I was like,
451
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:50.160
I was confident because I was telling you the truth,
452
00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:53.640
but I could see how someone who could be really
453
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:57.359
good at making up a scenario could be caught in
454
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:01.920
their lie. So it you hold that is holding someone
455
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:05.279
accountable to what they're saying in order to see if
456
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:09.920
they are being honest about things. So that would also
457
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:13.000
give someone an opportunity to you know, if they did
458
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:16.039
say no, I'd be curious to know why they're saying no.
459
00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:19.839
Yeah, and I have I called that the honesty factor question.
460
00:29:20.839 --> 00:29:24.160
How true? How true is that story? I have heard
461
00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:27.440
from clients actually in the interviews I've done. When I
462
00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:30.720
asked that honesty factor question, I've heard they moved the way,
463
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:34.200
I've lost contact with them. I heard that they've died.
464
00:29:34.839 --> 00:29:37.240
The only answer I haven't heard yet. I can't tell
465
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:42.160
you because they're in the witness protection program, right, you know,
466
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:44.920
you do hear it, and then all of a sudden
467
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:46.880
you say, so what really happened?
468
00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:48.279
Yeah?
469
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:52.000
Now it's interesting because but isn't.
470
00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:54.039
The interview essentially over if you catch someone in a
471
00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:57.680
lie or do you like, unless they're able to explain it.
472
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:01.079
I mean, I know if I interviewing.
473
00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:03.079
Someone and I caught them and live after lie after lie,
474
00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:04.640
in my mind, I would just want them out of
475
00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:05.480
my office.
476
00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:07.200
Yeah, you would want them out of the office. But
477
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:11.359
you've got to be polite and see the interview. What
478
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:15.759
people don't understand the interview is a reflection on the
479
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:19.519
environment of the job. It's about your brand, it's about
480
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:24.599
your company's you know, the employee brand, the employer brand.
481
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:29.359
The employee brand is actually being transmitted to the candidate.
482
00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:34.480
Onboarding doesn't start the first day and the job. Onboarding
483
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:37.680
starts with how you advertise the job, the wording you
484
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:43.319
put into the job advertisement. So you're onboarding. Now that
485
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:49.319
person might go on to glassdoor and put a comment
486
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.160
about the quality of the interview. If in fact I
487
00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:55.000
get really rude after, you know, by accusing them of
488
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:57.920
lying and all this other stuff, I might want to
489
00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:00.640
find out that it's all of a sudden last stoor
490
00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:04.720
that the interviewers at this company are really rude, they're
491
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:07.920
inconsideration and accuse you of lying. I don't want that
492
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:11.319
up there. So you've got to maintain your cool. You've
493
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.279
got to maintain your emotional intelligence the entire time.
494
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:20.279
Throughout the wing, people get really nervous.
495
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:23.240
And people do get nervous. And here here's one that
496
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:28.480
which I found fascinating. When my oldest son was an
497
00:31:28.599 --> 00:31:34.039
undergraduate school and at University of Western Ontario, the public
498
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:40.440
schools were having problems finding aids for lunchroom monitoring, and
499
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:44.160
the after school programs had been cut drastically. So he
500
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:49.960
decided that a fraternity activity was his fraternity brothers would
501
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:53.680
go into the school, help with after school programs, go
502
00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:58.559
in and help with monitoring launches, and it got local
503
00:31:58.680 --> 00:32:03.200
television radio. Everybody was like, say, how wonderful it is
504
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:06.279
that the students are helping the community and everything else.
505
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:11.480
And talking with his friends afterwards, I would say, I
506
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:16.279
know two people that use that experience as if they
507
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:21.000
were the ones who were leading it on medical school applications.
508
00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:25.640
I know other students who told me those friends said,
509
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:31.000
they use that story as if it was theirs in interviews,
510
00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:36.559
but it wasn't theirs. So if the interviewer said, gee,
511
00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:38.640
you know that was really great the television, you know,
512
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:41.160
the local TV, you know, could I get a copy
513
00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:43.000
of that? Well, if they did, they'd find out it
514
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:46.759
wasn't them, it was somebody else. So you know, it's
515
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:50.400
a great story. It really makes you feel good that
516
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:53.839
that student who is leading this initiative really is invested
517
00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:56.279
in the community, wants to give back. You want to
518
00:32:56.359 --> 00:33:00.279
hire them. But if I don't ask that question, like
519
00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:03.599
what was the reaction of your fraternity brothers, you know,
520
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:08.039
how to overcome their resistance or you know, that's really great.
521
00:33:08.119 --> 00:33:10.519
You know, I'd love to talk to the school principle about,
522
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:13.039
you know, how you approach them and what was the
523
00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:16.359
actual event. You know, because college students can back out
524
00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:22.319
on things. Nobody ever asked that, so you can turn
525
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:27.599
somebody else's story. I was doing work with Calgary Police
526
00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:30.519
and you know they were using this process and the
527
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:35.240
promotional process. And when I talked about people using other stories,
528
00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:39.839
they said, well, the police service only has fourteen hundred
529
00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:44.200
officers sworn officers, and if one catches a cold, they
530
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:47.039
all catch a cold. So we know what each other's doing.
531
00:33:48.039 --> 00:33:49.839
They're not going to be able to lie to us
532
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:53.720
because we know what's going on. But yet some of
533
00:33:54.640 --> 00:34:00.319
those going in for promotional interviews still borrowed stories from
534
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:05.799
other officers, and of course they got caught. So people
535
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.960
have people want the job, They're going to tell you
536
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:11.760
what you think you want to hear, they think you
537
00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:14.400
want to hear. They're not going to tell you necessarily
538
00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:18.519
what they did. So that's why that honesty question, which
539
00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:26.039
really is powerful, is so important. Two, it's not the
540
00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:29.079
behavior that'sques the behavioral question. I ask you, if you
541
00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:32.840
look on the surface, you might say it was about
542
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:40.320
team building, but really it was about communications and relationship building. Right,
543
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:43.800
what are the behaviors I'm looking for there? So here's
544
00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:49.000
the key to the interview process. If you're doing behavioral interviews,
545
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:51.599
you got to know what you're looking for before you
546
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:57.840
start the interview. Because somebody who is confident, articulate expresses
547
00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:02.519
themselves extremely well. They can baffle you, but with a
548
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:05.280
great answer and say, wow, that was a great answer.
549
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.400
Even though none of those behaviors are relevant to the job.
550
00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:11.880
They're not behave at our work, but they were good
551
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:15.000
for whatever you're doing. They're not a good fit. You
552
00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:18.880
need to define in advance. I'm looking for somebody for
553
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:22.159
teamwork is not good enough. I'm looking for somebody who
554
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:26.719
builds relationships. I'm looking for a good sales person. Now
555
00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:28.519
that's not enough. I need to know what are the
556
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:34.239
four or five critical behaviors of a salesperson in our organization?
557
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:38.760
What are the critical team building behaviors in our organization?
558
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:44.199
What's relationship building look like? How does one communicate? I
559
00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:47.320
have to list those out and then I have to
560
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:51.079
be able to use that as my anchor against which
561
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:55.480
what did you say? If they match, then you get
562
00:35:56.119 --> 00:35:59.480
points for it. Now here's the other part. I didn't
563
00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:03.960
ask you a very important question. When was that experience
564
00:36:04.039 --> 00:36:05.960
of the story? When did that happen? What year?
565
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:07.960
Oh?
566
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:12.440
Okay, I guess that would have been three two years ago,
567
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.119
twenty twenty five, twenty twenty four.
568
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:22.159
Okay, yeah, okay, so that's within the last two years. Yeah,
569
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:27.840
which means it's relevant because people believe the past behavior
570
00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:32.800
past performance predicts future behavior future performance. It's not true.
571
00:36:33.719 --> 00:36:36.000
We were all different people than we were in high school.
572
00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:40.280
We're different than we were even ten years ago. You know,
573
00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:43.480
once you have kids or don't have kids, things change,
574
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:47.559
once you have experiences at work, once you know sometimes
575
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:50.280
there's a tragedy in your family and it changes your
576
00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:53.239
behavior that somebody who knew you a long term time
577
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:57.320
ago might get surprised by it. So what is recent
578
00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:03.400
behavior that's frequently demonstrated? So I need to know that
579
00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:07.599
that behavior was within the last two years. I said,
580
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:14.760
I'm looking for skills, knowledge, education, behavior, experience, and time frame.
581
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:17.960
What is the time frame that happened, because if it
582
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:21.199
happened ten years ago, likely it is why haven't you
583
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:25.039
done it since? A great story? But I'm looking for
584
00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:29.000
some So if I have two candidates and they both
585
00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:32.719
give me great stories which match the behaviors I'm looking for,
586
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:37.480
I want to hire the candidates done it recently, even
587
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:41.000
if I like to have a candidate better. And we
588
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:42.880
all have to. And I think one of the biggest
589
00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:46.400
problems we have in interviews is everybody talks about bias
590
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:53.039
free interviews. That it's impossible. We can't have bias free interviews.
591
00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:55.400
You know. I ask at the interview course that I teach,
592
00:37:55.719 --> 00:37:59.559
I ask what kind of car do I drive? And
593
00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:05.440
he gives me an answer usually never right, because I
594
00:38:05.559 --> 00:38:10.079
drive a two thousand and five Vovo S forty es.
595
00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:14.119
They also I have a new high end car because
596
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:17.360
it goes with the profession, that goes with whatever. But
597
00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:22.599
that's their bias. Our bias is based on how we've
598
00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:26.840
experienced life and what we anticipate those experiences and other
599
00:38:26.920 --> 00:38:29.880
people will lead to. You know, I believe the cars
600
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:32.679
to get you safely from point A to point B.
601
00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:34.400
Yeah, it's you.
602
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:37.320
Know, I don't care about the car, all right. I
603
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:40.000
mean I care about the car works, but you know,
604
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:41.559
I know where the gas goes, I know where the
605
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:44.280
ignition is, and I know where the repair shop is,
606
00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:49.440
but I don't you know beyond that. That's nice. So
607
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:55.000
we all have our prejudice. We all have some people,
608
00:38:55.599 --> 00:39:00.880
you know believe this is like shocks me. But some
609
00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:04.559
people believe that if you're older and bold or have
610
00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:10.920
gray hair, you're probably a good leader. Right. People have
611
00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:16.239
research that tall people are usually hired over shorter people.
612
00:39:18.039 --> 00:39:18.599
Interesting.
613
00:39:19.239 --> 00:39:21.840
So I'm always you know, people joke about it that
614
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:25.920
with video interviewing, my advantage of being six foot three
615
00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:30.079
has suddenly disappeared because we're all sitting down now. So
616
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:32.599
I said, oh, yeah, I guess I took that prejudice away.
617
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:36.760
That's too bad. So you know, it's you know, people
618
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:40.639
have a have you know, have all sorts of prejudice.
619
00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:43.960
You know, if they're not wearing polished shoes, you know,
620
00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:48.480
how can I judge them? Or their hair is not neat.
621
00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:51.079
Now here's an interesting one. I'm working with one of
622
00:39:51.079 --> 00:39:56.760
the major hospitals in New York City and was asked
623
00:39:56.760 --> 00:40:02.639
to teach the physicians who are interview doing a significant
624
00:40:02.679 --> 00:40:07.599
number of people for a program MDS for a program
625
00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:10.639
I was asked. I asked them to They asked me
626
00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:13.760
to teach them behavioral interview and I did, and I
627
00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:16.559
followed up a couple of weeks later with them, and
628
00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:23.760
I got a very interesting response. They were prejudice against
629
00:40:24.039 --> 00:40:28.599
those people that came in who were not wearing a
630
00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:33.320
suit and tie. They were all wearing very expensive suits
631
00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:39.079
and ties, right, And I said, that person came across
632
00:40:39.079 --> 00:40:42.760
the street from that hospital. After they were done with surgery,
633
00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:45.920
going back to do another surgery, do they really have
634
00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:48.880
time to change in their suit and tie? And doesn't
635
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:51.960
really matter once you ever scrubs on any of them,
636
00:40:54.039 --> 00:40:55.679
And then you know, all of a sudden they were
637
00:40:55.679 --> 00:41:01.079
embarrassing because their prejudice was showing that at a certain
638
00:41:01.159 --> 00:41:04.920
level of being a physician, you should be wearing a
639
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:07.000
suit and time properly dressed in all this stuff. And
640
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:09.800
I said, it doesn't matter to me as the patient
641
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:13.679
if they were suit and tie. Their interview matters to me.
642
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:17.679
How you know their betside matter how they're going to
643
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:22.400
behave perform in the operation. And I had to point
644
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:26.400
that out to them, and suddenly they saw doctors who
645
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:33.400
probably were not being considered because of that initial gut reaction. Now,
646
00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:36.519
when I was in education and doing research as part
647
00:41:36.519 --> 00:41:41.400
of my graduate program, we were asking teachers about how
648
00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:46.280
they formed opinions about students, and they formed the opinion
649
00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:49.280
about students either before the student ever answered entered the
650
00:41:49.280 --> 00:41:52.679
classroom based on what other teachers had said about the
651
00:41:52.760 --> 00:42:01.079
student or about their academic records, and they therefore felt,
652
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:02.800
if you were a B student, you're going to be
653
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:05.079
a B student with them. If you're a C student,
654
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:07.320
you're gonna be a C student with them, and therefore
655
00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:09.719
they didn't put enough energy into making a C student
656
00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:14.880
and an A student, right, So you have to be
657
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:18.760
able to take away what you've heard about that and
658
00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:21.840
you have to be honest. So if I have a
659
00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:26.079
list of behaviors, I have a list of skill and
660
00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:30.960
knowledge that is necessary to do the job, and I
661
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:37.480
measured that behavior against what I want, then I've got
662
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:45.000
I've lowered the bias margin. In the book Selecting the Best,
663
00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:48.039
I actually have the story of a case study of
664
00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:52.159
the plant that was opening in Corpus Christy, Texas, and
665
00:42:52.679 --> 00:42:56.280
one of the very first interviews that the general manager made.
666
00:42:56.480 --> 00:43:00.880
Of course, they were hiring people with engineering backgrounds, and
667
00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:04.079
so going through the first set of interviews, he comes
668
00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:06.280
to me and says, I think I'm going to recommend
669
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:09.760
somebody that before this process I would not have recommended.
670
00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:12.840
And I said, what do you mean? He said, he
671
00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:17.400
doesn't have the engineering certification I want. He has engineering
672
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:21.960
background in other areas, but his behaviors blew me away.
673
00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:28.559
So I'm going to hire him, and because of the setup,
674
00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:31.559
he will have time to learn the skill and knowledge
675
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:35.159
necessary to do that job, and I'll help him and
676
00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:39.440
make sure he does. He was the best employee had.
677
00:43:40.119 --> 00:43:43.079
But when he reflected upon it, he said, if I
678
00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:46.280
was going strictly by skill and knowledge, I would have
679
00:43:46.320 --> 00:43:50.239
never hired this guy. But putting the behavior component against
680
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:53.679
our values, he was the best candidate that was out there.
681
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:56.400
He was the best option I had, and it turned
682
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:59.719
out he was the best option he had. So we
683
00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:04.000
have to be able to be objective and say does
684
00:44:04.039 --> 00:44:07.760
this person have the criteria? Now. The other thing is
685
00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:12.199
my pet peeve which I am really always concerned about,
686
00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:16.360
is when I see these job postings in the same
687
00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:21.280
minimum five years experience, minimum seven years experience in such
688
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:25.320
and such, and I'm saying, wait a second, so I
689
00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:29.719
relate it to the movie Groundhog Day. You can have
690
00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:33.559
a candidate he's been on the job ten years who
691
00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:38.840
has one year's experience repeated ten times, right, where you
692
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:42.320
can have a candidate with two years experience and the
693
00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:46.320
wisdom and knowledge of ten years experience. The only way
694
00:44:46.360 --> 00:44:49.039
you're going to know that is through the behaviors and
695
00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:52.280
through the stories they tell in the behaviors and the
696
00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:58.119
repetition and the frequency of those behaviors. So I unless
697
00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:05.320
you know years sperience is actually proved something I really
698
00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:08.559
am on this crusade to get rid of years experience
699
00:45:08.599 --> 00:45:12.199
off of these job descriptions, off these postings. The other
700
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:16.800
one is degrees. So I was working with this same
701
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:21.119
company out in Halifax, in Nova Scotia and New Glasgow,
702
00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:24.079
and they had a young man come in from Poland
703
00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:28.480
and because his engineering degree had to be sort of
704
00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:32.559
transcribed into Canadian equivalency, he had to go to TONS
705
00:45:32.679 --> 00:45:37.079
the Nova Scotia School of Engineering to get it certified,
706
00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:40.039
and it turned out it was only certified as a
707
00:45:40.159 --> 00:45:44.679
technical degree, not an engineering degree. But at the interview
708
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:50.280
he was like the best candidate, right. But because the
709
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:54.360
job description said must have an engineering degree, they looked
710
00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:58.320
for an engineer who they found and fired six months later,
711
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:05.639
reclassified the job for technical degree, hired this person who
712
00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:09.079
came in and did a phenomenal job and solved problems
713
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:12.320
that this other guy struggled with for six months he
714
00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:17.639
solved in the next three months. So is that degree
715
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:22.559
absolutely necessary? Obviously if it's a surgeon and wants somebody
716
00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:25.360
who's got the license. If they're an airline pilot, you
717
00:46:25.400 --> 00:46:28.880
want somebody with a license and probably some experience, but
718
00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:35.719
you know those are not always absolutes in jobs. I
719
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:39.800
was working with a pharmaceutical company and they had just
720
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:43.880
put out a new product in association with a company
721
00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:47.840
in Europe, and the company was out of Texas, and
722
00:46:48.480 --> 00:46:52.000
the pharmaceutical sales reps they always like to hire experience
723
00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:55.559
pharmaceutical sales reps, but they had hire one hundred of them.
724
00:46:55.800 --> 00:46:58.440
And I said, let me do a behavioral profile to
725
00:46:58.440 --> 00:47:02.559
find out what or the behaviors your best salespeople are
726
00:47:02.599 --> 00:47:06.800
demonstrating out there. And they put a behavioral interview process together,
727
00:47:08.519 --> 00:47:12.800
and I forgot about that work. And then one day
728
00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:17.320
my to be daughter in law came to issues doing
729
00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:20.519
our MBA program. They had an HR assignment they needed
730
00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:23.199
to do a case study on something never been done before.
731
00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:27.000
I said, call up the gentleman in Texas that I
732
00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:29.880
worked with and find out how that turned out, right,
733
00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:35.280
because they hired only recent grads, against all predictions that
734
00:47:35.320 --> 00:47:38.880
they'd work out, they hired one hundred of them. And
735
00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:42.199
he said the only problem they had is those that
736
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:47.360
came from rural backgrounds, suburbia, rural backgrounds when they put
737
00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:50.000
them in sales to do sales work in the city.
738
00:47:50.360 --> 00:47:53.360
They were struggling. When they put people from the city
739
00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:57.760
into farming areas, they were struggling, so they switched them
740
00:47:58.199 --> 00:48:02.360
to the geographic locations they were comfortable with. All one
741
00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:07.559
hundred were still there three years later. Wow, and the
742
00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:12.519
drug had a phenomenal success. So I kind of smiled
743
00:48:12.519 --> 00:48:16.360
and said, see, this stuff does work because they had
744
00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:22.440
the behaviors to do the job, and those behaviors were
745
00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:25.920
very specifically defined. And we did that with another drug
746
00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:29.239
company as well that had similar kind of experience. So
747
00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:32.880
the fact is that I can take that bias away
748
00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:35.880
from you as long as you have the rigor. The
749
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:38.480
only way to have the rigor is to do panel
750
00:48:38.559 --> 00:48:41.880
interviews to make sure that three people interview at the
751
00:48:41.880 --> 00:48:45.599
same time, hear the same story in the same way,
752
00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:51.800
take notes, individually, score it on their own according to
753
00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:55.800
their rubric that's created, and then come back and compare notes.
754
00:48:56.559 --> 00:49:00.679
And only No, it has to be through consensus, not voting,
755
00:49:01.239 --> 00:49:04.400
because the person who's the odd person out might actually
756
00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:07.159
have heard the story and have the evidence to convince
757
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:09.360
the other two they didn't hear it, right, And I've
758
00:49:09.400 --> 00:49:14.039
seen that happen, So it's really important to have panel interviews,
759
00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:16.760
it shortens the time of the interview. The person doesn't
760
00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:18.679
have to come back for a second or third interview.
761
00:49:19.159 --> 00:49:24.079
You shorten the time. People get hired faster, there's and
762
00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:27.639
there's a quicker time to productivity. So those are some
763
00:49:27.719 --> 00:49:31.760
of the things that a behavioral interview will increase. When
764
00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:35.159
you're hiring against the values of the organization, it makes
765
00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:40.000
it even stronger because we as human beings, when our
766
00:49:40.079 --> 00:49:43.880
values get violated, we get upset. So if I want
767
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:47.519
to hire somebody that gets along in our organization, can
768
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:51.320
argue with everybody, but knows that they have more or
769
00:49:51.400 --> 00:49:54.440
less the same values, so they get along. It's a
770
00:49:54.519 --> 00:49:58.400
honest disagreement, difference of opinion, but it's just a difference
771
00:49:58.400 --> 00:50:01.360
of opinion about how to proceed with something. It's not
772
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:05.519
a difference of opinion or a conflict of values. And
773
00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:08.559
if they have if I can hire somebody that has
774
00:50:09.039 --> 00:50:12.599
a vision like our organization's vision, a purpose like our
775
00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:18.079
organization's purpose, then they feel that they're contributing to something
776
00:50:18.119 --> 00:50:21.440
bigger than themselves, and as human beings, that's what we
777
00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:24.320
want to do. We want to contribute to something that
778
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:28.679
goes beyond ourselfs so if I can hire people that
779
00:50:28.840 --> 00:50:35.519
fit that equation, I'm going to have people that are motivated, retained, productive,
780
00:50:35.960 --> 00:50:40.400
and innovative and help us be successful. So that's why
781
00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:45.199
it's not just behavioral interviewing. It's behavioral interviewing against a
782
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:50.360
criteria behavior that are rooted in the organization's culture and
783
00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:53.719
the purpose of the organization. And when I can find
784
00:50:53.719 --> 00:50:56.280
that person, that person will be really successful.
785
00:50:58.119 --> 00:51:00.599
Thank you so much. What a brilliant conversation.
786
00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:02.800
I know we didn't get to touch on AI, but
787
00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:05.199
I think that's something that we could cover in a
788
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:11.719
future episode. I want to know if hiring managers listening
789
00:51:11.800 --> 00:51:15.559
today could change just one thing about their interview process,
790
00:51:16.280 --> 00:51:20.679
what would you tell them.
791
00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:24.360
I would say, know what you're looking for before the
792
00:51:24.440 --> 00:51:29.599
interview starts, and judge the person based on their recent
793
00:51:29.719 --> 00:51:35.400
behavior against the criteria that you define, and don't modify
794
00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:40.159
your perception of the person because you like them. Stick
795
00:51:40.239 --> 00:51:43.760
to These are the criteria that leads a success. This
796
00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:46.239
is the criteria that if I hire them, they're going
797
00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:48.760
to make me successful. And stick with it.
798
00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:52.280
Yeah, amazing, Thank you Samuch for being here.
799
00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:54.639
David, can you tell everyone just a little bit more
800
00:51:54.679 --> 00:51:56.800
about what you do. I know we're going to put
801
00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:58.679
it in the show notes, but just quickly.
802
00:51:59.519 --> 00:52:02.639
Yeah. I work with organizations on defining what their culture,
803
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:06.280
their authentic culture is, behaviors around that culture, how to
804
00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:10.360
integrate that with all aspects of talent management. And the
805
00:52:10.519 --> 00:52:16.639
book behind you, Selecting the Best is a understanding of
806
00:52:16.679 --> 00:52:19.880
how to identify the authentic behaviors of the values, the
807
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:23.360
authentic values, and how to apply that to a structured
808
00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:25.440
behavioral interviewing program.
809
00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:29.440
Amazing. So thank you so much again for being here,
810
00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:30.400
with so much fun.
811
00:52:30.199 --> 00:52:34.480
Talking to you always. Thank you very much, and to.
812
00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:38.239
Our audience, thank you for being here. So what did
813
00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:38.960
you learn today?
814
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:42.039
I know for me, I learned that interviews should not
815
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:45.639
be like a theater. They should be a conversation focused
816
00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:49.480
on behaviors. People can say whatever they want, but what
817
00:52:49.599 --> 00:52:50.960
is the evidence to back that up?
818
00:52:51.039 --> 00:52:53.239
How is someone going to actually act in the moment.
819
00:52:53.719 --> 00:52:56.360
If you enjoyed what you heard today, please leave comments
820
00:52:56.519 --> 00:52:58.719
in the comment section. We do read them and we
821
00:52:58.760 --> 00:53:01.199
do get back to you, and we will make sure
822
00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:03.599
to have David's information in the show notes for you
823
00:53:03.639 --> 00:53:06.800
to have access to him, his books, his tools, and
824
00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:09.519
more of what he does. Thank you for tuning in.
825
00:53:09.599 --> 00:53:11.199
We look forward to the next episode.
826
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Until next time, Bye everyone,