Lead Like a King: Lionhearted Leadership Explained

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Tim Staton: This is Tim Staton with Tim stating the obvious.
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Tim Staton: What is this podcast about? It's simple.
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You are entitled to Great leadership everywhere you go, whether it's a church, whether it's
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to work, whether it's at your.
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Tim Staton: House, you are entitled to Great leadership.
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Tim Staton: And so in this podcast, we take leadership principles and theories and turn them.
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Tim Staton: Into everyday relatable and usable advice.
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Disclaimer: And a quick disclaimer, this show process or service by trademark trademark manufacturer.
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Otherwise, does not necessarily constitute an reply, the endorsement of anyone that I employed
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by or favors in the the views are expressed here in my show are my own expressed and do not
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necessarily state or reflect those of any employer.
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Tim Staton: Hey and welcome to the episode.
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I want to share a quick story with you that not many people know.
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When I was younger, I used to love the Knights of the Round Table, the King Arthur stories,
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and it really resonated with me.
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I loved, you know, the feudalism in it, the kings and the queens. I loved the Knights.
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You had the good knights and the Dark Knights and the drama and the action.
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You had some romance in there.
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It all just came to a really good captivating story for a young man.
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You had men being men and women being women.
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And it was a great wholesome story.
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It also had some mysticism in it and it made you think, I wonder what that's really about.
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So when Eric Rogell reached out to me, I was super excited.
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And he's the author of the book Lions Raised His Lambs.
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And he's a best-selling author, a podcast host, documentary film writer, journalist and speaker.
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Over the last 20 plus years, Eric has shared his hard-earned wisdom with audiences driven to
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find their purpose and passion in life.
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He is the author of Lions Raised as Lambs.
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And in today's episodes, we're going to be talking about lionhearted leadership and leadership archetypes.
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So, Eric, welcome to the show.
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Eric Rogell: Thanks, Tim. Man, appreciate it, man.
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I really am excited to be here with you today.
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Tim Staton: My first question for you today is, what is lionhearted leadership?
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Eric Rogell: Yeah, it's a great question.
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And you know, when I go through some of these leadership archetypes like you talked about, you'll
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really get an idea of where lion and heart come from.
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Because in what we do, we have what we call the four foundational archetypes.
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And they come right around that story.
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You were talking about the kings and the knights and the heroes and all of that kind of stuff.
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So for us, the four foundational archetypes are the warrior, the lover, the king and queen, and the hero.
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And when we talk about lionhearted leadership, we use the warrior and the lover archetypes very,
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very much in that coming together, we'll say.
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So, put it to you this way.
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So we have the warrior archetype.
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If you look at the warrior archetype, there are some really key ideals and characteristics that come with the warrior.
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So you've got courage, you've got boldness, you've got leadership, you've got risk taking and
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the adventurer, the explorer, the steward, the guide, the mentor, all of these things are part
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of us in our warrior archetype.
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So the warrior also is the lion side.
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So you could say warrior, you could say lion.
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Now, the next archetype is the lover.
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And the lover really is about the heart.
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And so the lover traits are things like wisdom comes on our lover side.
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You've got generosity, trust, inspiration, motivation, you've got nurturing, abundance, creativity,
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patience, all these things that make life so beautiful, right?
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Really add the flavor to life.
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So you have your warrior and your lover or heart side, when you can integrate those two and
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come from both, that's when you are coming from the king or queen archetype.
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So the king is the man who has the warrior and the lover integrated, his lion and his heart.
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So when I say lion-hearted leadership, what I'm doing is I'm reminding leaders come from both.
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Your warrior, your lover, your lion and your heart.
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That's when you really elevate yourself to king and queen.
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So that's really where lion-hearted leadership comes from.
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And it's an easy thing to remember, Tim.
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It's, you know, you don't have to remember all these anagrams and letters and things.
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It's just remember king, queen.
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And you know, the king is your warrior and your lover, and you've got them integrated and you lead from both.
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Tim Staton: So you bring up a really good point because you have your ruling class and you have of your warrior class.
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Let's talk about the king and the queen because you say it comes from the warrior.
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In your book, when we talk about the king archetypes, what are some key aspects that are applicable to people today?
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Eric Rogell: Yeah, what I would say is we talk about it as lionhearted, right?
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Warrior and lover coming together and using them both.
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And so I would say the easiest way to say this is to remember to always in any kind of communication,
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whether it be leadership in.
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In the workplace or leadership at home with your significant other, with your kids, with your family.
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It is really both sides.
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So, for example, let's just pretend, Tim, we're in the office, okay?
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And you work for me, okay?
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And I would say to you, there's a project that you're working on.
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It's a Friday late afternoon, and I need that project finished by Monday, so you're gonna have
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to work over the weekend. Just that's the scenario. Okay.
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And this comes up a lot in business where you've got projects, there are deadlines and things are important.
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And I come to your desk Friday afternoon and I say, Hey, Tim, listen, you know that project
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you're working on for me?
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I need that on my desk Monday morning.
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And if I don't have that on my desk Monday morning, you are fired.
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Now, I know that means you have to work over the weekend, but I don't care because I need that thing Monday. Do you understand?
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How does that feel as an employee to be given a directive that way?
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Tim Staton: Well, I mean, it's not gonna, it's gonna induce some, a lot of anxiety.
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Eric Rogell: Yeah.
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Tim Staton: Right off the bat, because if I don't produce, I'm fired.
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Eric Rogell: A lot of pressure. Do you feel respected in any way when I speak to you that way?
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Tim Staton: No, not at all.
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Eric Rogell: No, not really. Now, listen, so what that is an example of is of coming from warrior only.
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And on each side, the warrior and the lover, we have the limiting and we have the empowering.
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So the limiting side of our warrior are things like being overbearing and a bully and inconsiderate
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and violent and, you know, rude and all of those things. That's the limiting side.
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On a powering side are the things we talked about before, courage and, you know, honesty and
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boldness and decision making and adventure and those kind of things.
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All those are the empowering side.
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So in what I just did with you, it was very limiting, right?
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It was coming from that overbearing, I don't care.
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And also notice there was no lover.
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There was no heart there, right?
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Now, I have worked for a lot of leaders, I use that term loosely with them, but leaders who
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have come to me that way, and I'm sure people that are listening have had that as well.
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They're just that very kind of brusque, they're coming in and this is it and get it done and they're gone, right?
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And it doesn't make us feel good because there's a piece missing.
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Now, with that said, there are some places where using warrior only is perfectly acceptable.
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I would say you're a military man.
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So in the military giving orders or you're on the battlefield, it's like, I need this done now, go get it done. That's perfectly okay.
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Medic, you know, in a surgical suite with a surgeon and he needs things right now, that's perfectly acceptable.
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First responders, those kind of things.
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But in a leadership role in a corporate or in a family situation, that doesn't land as well.
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Lands kind of like we talked about.
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Doesn't feel like you're respected, brings a lot of anxiety.
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And unfortunately, a lot of people lead this way.
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Now, I'm gonna give you another scenario.
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So I come to you, same thing.
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It's Friday afternoon and Tam, I come to your desk and you've got this project and I go, Hey, Tim, how are ya?
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Man, you know, we just love the work that you do here. You're so amazing.
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I love the way you put your reports together. They're beautiful.
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And I know you're working on this one project for us now and, oh, I need that Monday morning.
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And I know it's late Friday and I know you're gonna have to work over the weekend and it just
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makes me feel terrible that you're gonna I'm gonna have to work over the weekend.
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But, you know, the truth of the matter is if you don't have it on my desk Monday morning, I'm
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gonna have to fire you.
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And, oh, that feels terrible, but that's just what's gonna have to happen.
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Okay, so now how does that feel?
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If I come to you that way?
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Tim Staton: It seems very weak, honestly.
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I would be like, you're probably not gonna fire me.
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Eric Rogell: Yeah, well, it, you know, it's funny, I get that a lot with that one.
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And that one is we call wrong order.
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So it's leading with The Lover side, right?
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Leading with that Lover in the heart and a lot of people, and I've had people argue this with
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me that they, no, no, I have to tell them how much I appreciate them and love them first and
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then I'm going to drop all the bad news.
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No, because what happens is, like you said, it feels weak, it feels wishy-washy, it feels passive
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aggressive, feels like I'm blowing smoke, right?
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And you're waiting for the, what's going to happen here in the background?
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It doesn't really feel good.
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Now my guard is up.
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I'm like, what is he saying to me? That's wrong order.
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So I led with the lover.
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And as much as I said, I appreciated you and we loved everything you did.
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Didn't you get that feeling of like, what's coming next? Right?
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Like, yeah, what's gonna happen here?
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And then I hit you with, I'm gonna have to fire you.
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And that was like the warrior side. You're done.
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That order doesn't work with us.
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So if you look at, for example, and you brought up the stories again.
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So we'll talk about those myths and legends and all these things, even modern stories that we
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love, like Star Wars and Harry Potter.
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And Lion King and all of these things, there is really like an order to them.
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It's what, you know, if you know Joseph Campbell, he wrote the Power of Myth.
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He also wrote the Hero with a Thousand Faces.
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And it was in, I believe it was in the Hero with a Thousand Faces, where he discovered that
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every story is every story is every story.
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The hero is the same in every story.
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And they go through what he called the hero's journey.
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And if you look at the hero's journey, it starts with, you know, obviously the main character
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is bored or they not happy with their life.
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And then they get into a challenge, you know, a mystical mentor may show up and say, you are
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the one, you're the hero. They don't believe it.
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They go into, he called the Abyss.
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Some people call it the wilderness.
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That's where they hit these challenges.
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They don't believe in themselves. They hit self-doubt.
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They may come up against the antagonist of the story, the villain of the story.
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And when they get into that, they end up failing many times and they want to give up but with
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that guidance they push through.
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They find what he called the gift of the goddess.
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So that first side in the challenges and pushing through and the perseverance is the warrior.
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You need that to tap through.
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And then the gift of the goddess is the lover finds that passion, that purpose, that love that
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drives him through ends up defeating the villain and then returning home as the king or the hero. That's the hero's journey.
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We look at this and it's what I call the software of our soul.
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This has been going on for millennia.
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This is how we've told stories.
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So leading with the warrior, tapping into that warrior at the beginning and then coming into
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the lover on the other side, returning as the king is really why in my work in lionhearted leadership,
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it's the warrior and the lover, the lion and the heart together, but leading with the warrior.
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So I'll give you that example now.
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So same scenario, Tim, you're working for me Friday afternoon, And I come to you and I say,
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Hey Tim, listen, we've made a decision.
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The only possible thing we can do is that I need that report that you're working on for me on my desk Monday morning.
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Now, I understand that means you're gonna have to work over the weekend.
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And here's what we're gonna do for you.
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One, I'm gonna give you my cell phone number.
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And if you need anything at all, you call me and I will be there to help.
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I'm gonna give you the cell phone number of people on the team who can support you.
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If you need anything over the weekend, they know that they're on call.
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You give them a call and they will help.
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Now, if we don't get this on my desk Monday morning, I'm sure you understand there are some
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consequences, but I have all the faith in you that you're going to get this done over the weekend
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and we're not even going to have to go there.
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So we're going to help you in any way to make sure you are successful in getting this done by Monday morning.
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And I'm going to give you some flex time over the next week.
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You can take an extra couple of days off as a thank you for getting this done.
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So you have any questions?
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Tim Staton: And with that one, it's more direct and it's also flexible as well.
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So I mean, like I know what's required of me, but I also feel like like you're giving on your end as well.
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So, like, you respect my time and giving it back on the back end.
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But I also know what needs to be done.
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It's very clear, it's very direct.
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And I also don't feel used in the process.
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Eric Rogell: Right. And so that's where it comes in, where lion-hearted leadership works, because it's the
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lion and then the heart, right?
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The warrior and then the lover.
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That Warrior was, we decided, Tim, we made a decision.
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So now you understand there's maybe been some discussion. We had a decision.
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This is what has to happen. Very clear and direct.
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Like you said, you're an adult. I'm an adult.
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We're talking man to man here.
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We're not, I'm not wishy-washy around. I'm not dancing. On the subject.
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I'm going right in and saying, this is what needs to be done.
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Then the lover side comes in.
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We're going to give you support.
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We're going to make sure you've got it. We believe in you.
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We trust you're going to get it done.
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And then I ask if you have any questions because you may have some questions and you may bring
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up something we didn't know that may, you know, allow it to get done easier, quicker, whatever it may be.
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So that's where we give it to you.
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And that's kind of an example of how lionhearted leadership works.
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And this works with your kids, too.
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I've had I've trained some high powered executives who had kids and they didn't know how to treat them at home.
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And it's the same thing.
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They're just littler adults, right?
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And it's just very decisive. Here's what we decided.
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This is what's going to happen. We love you. We care for you.
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And this is, you know, let's go.
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So that's why we, you know, we call it right order leadership also, which is leading with the
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warrior, putting it in right order.
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Leave with the warrior, come with the lover, because we understand this.
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Like I said, it's part of the hero's journey.
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It's part of what's hardwired into us, the software of our soul.
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And we understand it and we get it.
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So that's why, you know, I've seen so much success with it with myself, with my clients.
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And it's very, very easy to remember.
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If you just remember lionhearted, you're like, oh yeah, both.
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I have to lead with my lion, support with my heart.
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And now I know what to do.
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Tim Staton: Absolutely. And for for any of the veterans or military folks looking out there, listening out
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there, it's kind of like mission first people always.
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But I love how you say lionhearted where it because it ties into that archetype.
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Now, when you were talking, I was thinking about the kind of the the succession of the story, right?
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So if you lead with the warrior, you end with the lover.
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And there's a journey that goes along.
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And usually in the stories, like the Warrior of the Night ends up becoming the king, right?
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So with that, and we talk about that, we were talking about before and you mentioned what's
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good for the king is good for the kingdom.
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And how can we take care of ourselves?
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Because as leaders, if we can't take care of ourselves, we can't take care of anybody else.
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But sometimes that gets a little bit convoluted.
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So how does that work in this scenario?
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Eric Rogell: Sure. So, you know, I'm glad you said that because that is a big thing that we use in my working
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with the men that I coach and mentor is if it's good for the king, it's good for the kingdom.
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And really what that means is, you know, if the king is sick and miserable and unhappy and unhealthy
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and broke, how does that reflect on the kingdom?
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Kingdom can't be thriving under those circumstances.
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If the king is happy and healthy and wealthy and fulfilled and on purpose, how does that reflect on the kingdom?
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So you've got to take care of you first.
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I meet a lot of people, men especially, who, you know, they do this whole thing where they're,
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I'm working 80 hours a week and I'm giving this up for my family and I'm making as much money as I can now.
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And I want to make sure that they're taken care of.
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But you're tired and exhausted and miserable and overworked and they know it. The kingdom knows it.
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And it reflects on them. Take time for yourself.
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You know, I have a woman that I was speaking with and I told this to her and she's like, you know what? I really love that.
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I'm going to tell my husband this.
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And she told him and she said, Now he comes home after work and he's like, Honey, what's good
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for the king is good for the kingdom.
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I'm gonna go play with the kids for an hour.
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And he just goes and he hangs out.
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He has two young children.
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He plays with them and wrestles around on the ground and has a blast.
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And it's become his way of unwinding after work is, I'm just gonna go play with the kids.
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I'm not gonna worry about like the bills that came in the mail or what's going on with the,
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we need a plumber to come out or, you know, what?
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I'm not worried about any of that.
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I'm gonna go take care of me first and I'm gonna make sure that I'm happy and I'm playing with the kids.
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And I'm having a good time.
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So that's really, you know, what that means.
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And it's, you know, another way to explain it is, you know, there's that old cliche when you're
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on an airplane and they tell you if the masks drop from the ceiling, put yours on first before you help anybody else.
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Because if you pass out, you're no good to anybody.
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So you've got to take care of that first and then help other people. Same with that line.
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If it's good for the king, it's good for the kingdom.
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Take care of the king, take care of yourself, and that will make your kingdom thrive.
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So that's really what that means.
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And it's really important to, to, to do that for yourself.
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Make sure you are happy doing the things that you enjoy and that you want to do.
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You know, there's no need to be a martyr.
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There's no need to be, you know, sacrifice yourself because it's not really going to help them.
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The more you give to you, the more you're ultimately giving to your family.
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So when I talk to a lot of men and they're like, oh, I'm doing this for my family, it's like, no, you're not. Do for yourself first.
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And that's doing for your family because now you can really help Now you guys can all really thrive together.
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And so I'm really glad you brought that up because it's such an important thing for us to remember,
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especially as leaders and entrepreneurs and busy people.
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We have to keep that in mind that we got to make sure we're taking care of ourselves so we can
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take care of our kingdom.
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Tim Staton: Because when we take care of the kingdom, we have to make tough decisions and we have to be
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in the best shape and mental, spiritual and physical shape that we can in order to do that.
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Because it was good for us, it was good for everybody else.
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And making tough decisions is hard.
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So when we make tough decisions, we also will make other people upset.
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And in that process, right, I don't think anybody ever views themselves as a villain.
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So I'm reminded of, I forget which Batman series it was, but they said, you know, you live a
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hero and then you live long enough to see yourself become a villain.
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So let's talk a little bit about that Paradigm in, in this framework.
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Eric Rogell: Yeah, so we have this thing I call heroes and villains, right?
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So to give you a little bit of background, we just did the thing where I told you about the
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project needed to be done on Monday or you get fired.
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And I've had people argue with me that they want to tell people when they fire them or they
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make a bad decision how much they love them and appreciate you working here.
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Tim, you've been with us for eight years.
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We love what you did, but we're going to have to let you go. It's just weird, right?
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So again, it's remembering the right order, lionhearted.
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And one of the things I always, people always ask me is, all right, so I got to king and queen.
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I'm leading with the warrior.
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I'm supporting with the lover.
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Um, you know, I'm making decisions. I'm being decisive.
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And how can I elevate the hero? What does hero mean?
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So the hero is someone who the king and queen are doing for the kingdom. Hero does for anybody. Purely altruistic.
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They just do things for others out of their heart, right? Purely altruistically.
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And one of the things I say is, how can you become a hero?
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Well, it's create kings and queens around you.
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Elevate your team, elevate your kids, your family, whoever it may be, to kings and queens, and
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that elevates you to hero.
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So one of the things I find is that we get a lot of leaders, and, and I'm sure you've seen this,
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Tim, where you get leaders that have that. I'm the hero.
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I need to fix things.
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I need to fix everything. Right.
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So I want to be popular.
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I want to be liked.
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I want to please everyone on my team, and I want to be seen as the hero.
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And I rode in on my white horse, and I fixed it all, and that's who I am.
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A lot of times that's not what's needed as the hero.
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The hero, like you mentioned earlier, needs to make very difficult decisions.
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And I always liken it to that old saying where they said, everybody wants to be a lion until
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it's time to do lion stuff, right?
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And that's the hard stuff.
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And when you're a leader, everybody wants to be a leader until it's time to do tough leader stuff.
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And some of these decisions are not gonna make you liked by everybody.
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And so one of the things that I've heard that I like to say is we are always the hero of our own story, right?
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That hero's journey we're all on that hero's journey.
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We're all the hero of our own story.
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But what we don't realize is we are very often the villain of somebody else's story.
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And if you've got kids, you know what I'm talking about, right?
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You're making a decision that you know is best for everybody, but the kids are pissed and they
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don't want to do it, and you're the bad guy.
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So what I tell leaders is this, you are always going to be the villain of somebody else's story.
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There's nothing you can do about it.
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So if you're making decisions based on, you want to be liked, you want to, you know, be the
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hero, you want to be, for everybody and you want to make these decisions because you think it's
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going to make everybody happy and they're all going to like you, you're making the wrong decision.
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You've got to make decisions based on what is best for the company, the project, the family,
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whatever it may be, knowing you're going to be a villain to somebody.
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And you have to be okay with that.
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You have to be okay with that.
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And I'll give you an example.
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So we talked about Lions Raised as Lambs, the book. My most recent book.
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And, you know, it's really a story of my journey with my mentor, a man named Rob James.
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And Rob's been a mentor of mine for over a decade.
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And Rob has his mentors, and it's all about guiding each other along the path.
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And, you know, part of that guidance is Rob and I are friendly, and we have a, you know, great time together.
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We'll go out on his boat, we'll have lunch, but he's not, and don't take this the wrong way, he's not my friend. He is my mentor.
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In that comes the friend, the guide, and the guardian.
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And he's mostly the guide guiding me along the way.
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But there are times when Eric does dumb stuff and I need to be put back on the path and the
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guardian comes out and that's when Rob's got to draw his sword and kick me back on the path.
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Now, there are times when he's done that when I see him as the villain.
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I'm like, why is this guy that is?
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What he said to me was horrible.
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How dare you say that kind of stuff to me? That's disrespectful. It's horrible. It's awful.
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But it's also the stuff I really needed to hear. Right?
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So he's not looking for me to like him necessarily. Respect him? Hell yeah.
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But I don't have to like him because he's going to do things and say things that I may not like,
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but there's things that I need to hear to keep me on the path to my greatness and keep me moving forward.
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So in this, as we talk about this, and that's what the book is really about, is a lion raising
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a lion cub to be a warrior and a king.
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And he didn't like it very much at first because he's been raised by lambs, right?
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So he's used to being soft and comfortable and having it be easy and coasting and not giving
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well, you don't get to your greatness by that.
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You get to your greatness by, and you know this from being in the military, they forge you into greatness, right?
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That's what Rob has done for me and other men.
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And it was done to him by men in front of him.
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So he pays it forward to those great men by mentoring us and then I pay it forward by mentoring others.
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And that's the path, right?
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Mentorship is so, so important.
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So when we talk about this and the villain is if you're a mentor or a leader, and people aren't,
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say, pissed off or upset or annoyed, really look at your decision making.
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Because if you're doing it to please everybody, to be the hero in a limiting sense, and being
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a hero because you want to feel good about yourself by doing something like that, rather than
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making the right decision and being a hero because you made the right decision, some people may be upset.
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They may be, you know, in disagreement with you, but that's okay because this is the hard decision
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that needed to be made.
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So that again, lion-hearted but it comes from, I'm okay being the villain because I know I'm
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going to be the villain to somebody anyway. Makes sense.
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Tim Staton: Makes complete sense to me.
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And, and for everybody out there who is struggling with likership versus leadership versus how
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can I make the hard call?
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But it's the right call.
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Go back and re-watch this segment because it's incredibly important to understand that, you
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know, just like Eric said, you're gonna be the villain in somebody else's story anyway, so might
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as well make the right decision. And, and that's just.
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My two cents on that.
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But I love the way you framed it.
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I love the fact that you talked about the mentorship, which is incredibly important as well.
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So thank you for bringing that up.
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So let's go back to values because everybody in this model that we have here, there are some
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core values that may not be intrinsic to folks.
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So what are those core values that people should adopt?
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Eric Rogell: Yeah, you know, I love that you asked that and I appreciate that.
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You know, you being in the military, you know that they have core values.
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Rob, my mentor, Core was a marine or is a marine, a hard marine.
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And they had core values in the core.
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And so Rob said to us one day, we need some core values for this work.
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So Rob has, his work is self-discovery life Mastery.
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Rob has been doing this kind of work, human Consciousness work, growth development work for 30 years.
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And his Mentor, a man named Harry Palmer, has been doing it for 60.
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So there's a lot of lineage there, a lot of time.
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And Rob said, you know, for the work, I want to get, come up with some core that are intrinsic
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to this work and that we can use in our own individual work.
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So my line hearted leadership is based on Rob's framework from self discovery and what I learned there.
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And he and I, you know, kind of put this together.
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So about, I think it was nine or ten of us men got in a room at Rob's house and we literally
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went through every ideal and value we could think of.
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And we spent hours and hours and hours paring them down, paring them down, paring them down,
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arguing over them, putting them into what are the core of the core of the core. Foundational value.
431
00:26:09,130 --> 00:26:12,810
And so we use them in our work and I use them in lionhearted leadership.
432
00:26:12,890 --> 00:26:16,010
And we have what we call the sacred seven core value.
433
00:26:16,410 --> 00:26:22,650
And they are courage, honesty, integrity, commitment, duty, honor and love.
434
00:26:23,290 --> 00:26:28,170
So, you know, these are the things that I live by, that many of us live by, the men that have
435
00:26:28,170 --> 00:26:31,290
gone through my work and who I've coached and mentored live by.
436
00:26:31,610 --> 00:26:32,570
They are a North Star.
437
00:26:33,230 --> 00:26:34,510
They are a path to follow.
438
00:26:34,910 --> 00:26:38,830
They are the guardrails on the side of that path for you when you're kind of getting out.
439
00:26:38,990 --> 00:26:41,230
And I run everything through it as a litmus test.
440
00:26:41,390 --> 00:26:43,710
And I look at every day, am I being courageous?
441
00:26:43,870 --> 00:26:46,830
Am I being honest with myself first, then with others?
442
00:26:47,310 --> 00:26:51,390
Because those first three are so critical, Tim. You must have courage.
443
00:26:51,470 --> 00:26:52,750
That's why it's first, right?
444
00:26:52,830 --> 00:26:54,750
If you don't have courage, you can't get to the others.
445
00:26:54,910 --> 00:27:00,140
If you're too afraid or stuck in fear, you're not going to get to honesty, which leads you to integrity. Liberty, right?
446
00:27:00,220 --> 00:27:00,940
You're never going to get there.
447
00:27:01,020 --> 00:27:01,900
You're not going to get to love.
448
00:27:02,060 --> 00:27:06,620
If you don't have courage, it takes tremendous courage to love. So, courage is first.
449
00:27:06,780 --> 00:27:09,340
Also, it's a warrior trait and love is a lover trait.
450
00:27:09,420 --> 00:27:11,100
So, they kind of, that's the alpha and the omega.
451
00:27:11,180 --> 00:27:12,140
They kind of wrap the seven.
452
00:27:12,620 --> 00:27:18,220
But if you have the courage to be ruthlessly honest with yourself first and really look deeply
453
00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:21,500
at yourself, then it leads you to integrity.
454
00:27:21,660 --> 00:27:25,420
Because if you're not honest with yourself, you can't be honest with other people and you'll
455
00:27:25,420 --> 00:27:27,010
never be a man of ever.
456
00:27:27,170 --> 00:27:31,410
So you've got to have that courage to look deeply at yourself, be ruthlessly honest with yourself
457
00:27:31,890 --> 00:27:33,170
so you can live in integrity.
458
00:27:33,330 --> 00:27:38,610
And I will tell you, Tim, from personal experience, I spent most of my life before I got into
459
00:27:38,850 --> 00:27:43,010
this playing the nice guy, playing the people pleaser.
460
00:27:43,330 --> 00:27:47,410
I had that mask on so tight, I didn't even know who I was anymore.
461
00:27:47,570 --> 00:27:48,690
It was just all about that.
462
00:27:49,010 --> 00:27:51,090
And I really wasn't being honest with myself.
463
00:27:51,810 --> 00:27:57,840
And part of why I was such a people pleaser and and nice guy was because I really didn't like myself very much.
464
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,880
That was the ruthless honesty that I had to come to.
465
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,040
It was painful to realize it. Wow.
466
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,680
On some level, I really hate myself. I don't like myself.
467
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,440
I don't like some of the things that I've done.
468
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,200
I'm ashamed of some things that I've done.
469
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:14,800
And I really had to do some hard work and put some lot of attention on that, clearing that out
470
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,560
and becoming more and more honest with myself.
471
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,640
And then I could become more honest with other people.
472
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:19,040
Tim Staton: Right.
473
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:20,800
Eric Rogell: And it's that ruthless honesty.
474
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,360
Like I said, when Rob's had to kick me back on the path, he's had to be ruthlessly honest with
475
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:30,310
me about the stuff that what I was doing that wasn't ideal, that wasn't serving me or my purpose
476
00:28:30,470 --> 00:28:31,910
and wasn't leading me to greatness.
477
00:28:32,070 --> 00:28:33,030
It was just holding me back.
478
00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:35,110
Painful to tell some people these things.
479
00:28:35,350 --> 00:28:40,070
I'm sure you can, usually when I talk about this, people pop into people's minds right away,
480
00:28:40,230 --> 00:28:45,350
like who needs to hear something because they're not living ideal, they're not doing what they need to be doing.
481
00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:50,310
If you have the courage to be honest with yourself first and look at, oh, maybe I really don't
482
00:28:50,310 --> 00:28:51,430
like some of these things about myself.
483
00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:54,550
Really, I'm ashamed of some of the things I did when I was younger.
484
00:28:54,710 --> 00:28:56,630
Now you have the space to be honest with other people.
485
00:28:56,870 --> 00:29:02,140
That leads you to and integrity is so important as a leader to lead from integrity.
486
00:29:02,300 --> 00:29:07,020
And I will tell those of you guys that are out there listening to this, because I know a lot
487
00:29:07,020 --> 00:29:09,260
of you have that same mask on that I had, right?
488
00:29:09,420 --> 00:29:10,540
I'm gonna be the nice guy.
489
00:29:10,620 --> 00:29:11,740
I'm gonna be the people pleaser.
490
00:29:12,060 --> 00:29:13,340
I'm gonna make sure everybody likes me.
491
00:29:13,420 --> 00:29:14,540
I want everybody to like me, right?
492
00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:16,220
It goes back to the hero and villain thing.
493
00:29:16,460 --> 00:29:21,340
But the thing is, everybody can see that mask. You're not fooling anybody. They all know.
494
00:29:21,660 --> 00:29:26,390
That's the one thing I found out when I finally got real and honest was everybody knew anyway. Anyway, right?
495
00:29:26,710 --> 00:29:29,910
And they'll tell you after you're honest to be like, yeah, thanks, man.
496
00:29:29,990 --> 00:29:33,430
I've been waiting for you to say that because we knew for years that this was going on.
497
00:29:33,750 --> 00:29:38,390
So know that they know anyway, and that'll help you get more real and more honest with yourself
498
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:39,670
so you can be in integrity.
499
00:29:39,750 --> 00:29:43,990
And then from there, you can, you know, get into commitments from integrity, right?
500
00:29:44,150 --> 00:29:47,830
A lot of us get into commitments and we say yes when we know we're not going to do it.
501
00:29:47,990 --> 00:29:50,150
Like, you don't have time, but you want the other person to feel good.
502
00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:51,430
You don't want to make them feel bad.
503
00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:55,430
You're not going to come to their birthday party or their anniversary party or their barbecue
504
00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:57,020
or whatever, because you just don't want to go.
505
00:29:57,500 --> 00:29:58,860
A lot of times you just don't want to go.
506
00:29:58,940 --> 00:30:03,500
You don't have to have that much of an excuse, but we say, yeah, oh yeah, of course I'll be there. Absolutely.
507
00:30:03,580 --> 00:30:08,540
And then it's that last minute, oh my aunt had a thing and I've got to take her to.
508
00:30:08,780 --> 00:30:10,300
Now you're just not being an integrity, right?
509
00:30:10,460 --> 00:30:11,420
It's easier to say no.
510
00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:13,180
Hey, listen, I'm not going to be able to make it.
511
00:30:13,420 --> 00:30:14,060
I'm not going to go.
512
00:30:14,220 --> 00:30:17,820
Love you, but I'm not going to make the barbecue, right? That's integrity and commitments.
513
00:30:17,900 --> 00:30:22,300
And then we have our duty, which is our responsibility to the people that are around us, the people that we lead.
514
00:30:22,620 --> 00:30:23,420
We have a duty to them.
515
00:30:23,580 --> 00:30:26,760
We have a duty to our family, we have a duty as you know, to our country, right?
516
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,400
So that gets you into duty and then honor.
517
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:35,240
And honor is just, you know, like Tim, I could say I honor you for your 23 years of service to this country.
518
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,720
I can't think of a bigger honor, right?
519
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:39,720
You can honor your parents.
520
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:45,960
Like my parents, I blame them for everything that was wrong with me when I was younger.
521
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,720
I blame my parents, but they were just doing the best they could with the tools they had.
522
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:51,160
And so I honor them for that.
523
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:52,360
They were young when they had me.
524
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:53,800
They were in their early 20s.
525
00:30:55,140 --> 00:30:57,300
And they didn't know what they were doing.
526
00:30:57,460 --> 00:31:00,580
They were just kind of flying by the seat of their pants. So they made mistakes.
527
00:31:00,660 --> 00:31:02,900
Of course they made mistakes. We all do. I did.
528
00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:08,580
So I honor them and I thank them and I love them for what they gave me, the things they did
529
00:31:08,740 --> 00:31:10,260
give me and what I learned from them.
530
00:31:10,420 --> 00:31:12,500
So that's that honor and we don't do that enough.
531
00:31:12,740 --> 00:31:16,900
Tim, I don't know, you know, in your experience, but in my experience, people don't honor each other enough.
532
00:31:17,140 --> 00:31:21,460
And when you do, and I would say to those of you that are listening, try this because I've done this.
533
00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:25,380
If you want, pick up the phone or send it as a text or an email.
534
00:31:25,930 --> 00:31:29,130
If you want to really get your wording right, sometimes that's easier for people.
535
00:31:29,450 --> 00:31:33,450
And I did this with my brother not long ago where I just felt like, you know what?
536
00:31:33,610 --> 00:31:34,810
I need to honor him a little bit.
537
00:31:35,050 --> 00:31:40,330
And I wrote this long text about all the things that I really appreciated about him and that I honored him for.
538
00:31:40,810 --> 00:31:44,810
And he wrote me back a text and he said he had it.
539
00:31:45,050 --> 00:31:50,490
He was driving and he had it playing on the, you know, the Apple carplay or whatever, and it
540
00:31:50,490 --> 00:31:51,210
was reading it to him.
541
00:31:51,370 --> 00:31:52,490
He's like, I had to pull over.
542
00:31:52,650 --> 00:31:54,330
Like, I had tears in my eyes.
543
00:31:55,130 --> 00:31:57,450
People don't get that honor enough, you know?
544
00:31:57,690 --> 00:32:03,530
And one of the things that Harry Palmer, who was my mentor's mentor, Rob's mentor, has said
545
00:32:03,690 --> 00:32:05,370
is there's really only four things people need.
546
00:32:05,530 --> 00:32:09,770
And it's respect, appreciation, acknowledgement, and attention, I believe.
547
00:32:10,330 --> 00:32:12,010
And we don't give that enough to people.
548
00:32:12,250 --> 00:32:14,970
We don't show them the respect. We don't appreciate them.
549
00:32:15,130 --> 00:32:17,050
We don't acknowledge them for what they've done.
550
00:32:17,290 --> 00:32:19,530
That's where honor comes in. And it's truly important.
551
00:32:19,930 --> 00:32:22,010
So go honor somebody today. And then love.
552
00:32:22,250 --> 00:32:28,800
And love, actually, true story, we were in that room putting these core values together, somebody brought up love.
553
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,440
It might have been Rob, I think it was Rob that brought up love.
554
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,640
And I was like, love, are you kidding me? That's weak.
555
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:40,480
We're putting together these strong, you know, like courage and honesty and integrity and, you know, duty.
556
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:41,760
And then you come up with love.
557
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,120
It just feels so weak.
558
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:51,280
And yeah, I was, I lost that argument and thankfully lost that argument because love is one
559
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:57,580
of the most powerful forces in the Love is just devastating. Love is incredibly powerful.
560
00:32:57,740 --> 00:33:01,740
And when you come from love in what you do, it changes everything.
561
00:33:02,380 --> 00:33:06,860
So like we were talking about decision making, Tim, you know, if you're making decisions and
562
00:33:06,940 --> 00:33:11,500
it comes from the heart, when you're telling somebody something that's very difficult for them
563
00:33:11,580 --> 00:33:15,500
to hear because you're being ruthlessly honest with them and you're putting them back on the
564
00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:17,900
path because you're kind of veering off here a little bit.
565
00:33:18,140 --> 00:33:21,490
If you come from the heart, it lands way different. Different.
566
00:33:21,570 --> 00:33:23,250
It'll land the way you intended it to.
567
00:33:23,490 --> 00:33:26,930
When you come from your head and you're making shit up and what should I say and how do I cap,
568
00:33:27,170 --> 00:33:28,530
that's when we get caught in the trap.
569
00:33:28,690 --> 00:33:31,890
So it's love is so incredibly important.
570
00:33:32,530 --> 00:33:35,810
So courage, honesty, integrity, commitment, duty, honor and love.
571
00:33:36,130 --> 00:33:40,210
Have the courage to be ruthlessly honest with yourself and then you can be honest with others
572
00:33:40,290 --> 00:33:44,770
and that'll lead you to integrity, which, you know, is love as far as I'm concerned.
573
00:33:44,850 --> 00:33:49,010
And being in integrity, being honest with people, honoring your commitments, your duty, honoring
574
00:33:49,090 --> 00:33:51,090
others, loving others, coming from your heart.
575
00:33:51,490 --> 00:33:52,690
That to me is so important.
576
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,480
So those core values to me are just crucial.
577
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:56,680
It's what I live by.
578
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:01,080
And I'm so grateful to have them because they've kept me on the path.
579
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,200
Anytime I start to veer, I look through the lens of those seven and it will get me back on track.
580
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:11,080
Tim Staton: Those, I think, if you don't have any morals or value, well, you may have morals, but if you
581
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:12,280
don't have core values, right?
582
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:18,520
I would say take a look at these as a guiding principle for values.
583
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,680
And you hit the nail on the head with honor.
584
00:34:21,020 --> 00:34:24,060
I personally don't think that enough people honor other people.
585
00:34:24,460 --> 00:34:27,340
And I also think it's because people don't understand what it is.
586
00:34:28,700 --> 00:34:30,460
Because how often do we talk about it?
587
00:34:31,580 --> 00:34:36,460
Unless you are reading in the Bible and it tells you to honor your mother and father, how else
588
00:34:36,860 --> 00:34:38,300
do we talk about honor in society?
589
00:34:39,340 --> 00:34:41,740
Unless you're in the military, right? Duty, honor, country.
590
00:34:43,020 --> 00:34:49,500
By doing your duty, you bring honor to your unit, yourself, your family, your lineage, your country, right?
591
00:34:49,820 --> 00:34:52,780
And giving honor is not something you can do yourself.
592
00:34:53,170 --> 00:34:56,290
It's something you have to bestow on other people through your action.
593
00:34:56,530 --> 00:34:58,450
So I love the fact that you brought that up.
594
00:34:58,770 --> 00:35:00,930
I think we should be talking more about it. And then love.
595
00:35:01,490 --> 00:35:09,890
I was reminded and I had the imagery in my head of the Knight because he is firm and steadfast,
596
00:35:10,210 --> 00:35:14,770
but he's also there's like the gentleness about a Knight, you know, compared to like the Spartan
597
00:35:14,850 --> 00:35:18,670
warrior, right, where he's just all in it about, you know, about business. This.
598
00:35:19,070 --> 00:35:24,030
The night in itself is, is about business, but there's also a gentleness to it.
599
00:35:24,270 --> 00:35:29,470
And, and just like we have mission and purpose and just like you talked about at the beginning,
600
00:35:29,550 --> 00:35:34,750
how we have things where they're hard to talk about, but we still got to deliver it with love at the end.
601
00:35:35,070 --> 00:35:38,750
And, and I love how you tied it all together. So thank you. Yeah.
602
00:35:38,830 --> 00:35:42,430
Eric Rogell: Oh, no. I was gonna say, before, before you bring your last thing up, you just, you know, that's
603
00:35:42,430 --> 00:35:44,770
why it's so important to include that. Heart, right?
604
00:35:44,930 --> 00:35:49,490
So like to me, honoring somebody else is having the courage and the honesty to go up to another
605
00:35:49,730 --> 00:35:53,250
man and say, wow, I mean, this, this guy has achieved some great things.
606
00:35:53,810 --> 00:35:55,490
This guy is really a great father.
607
00:35:55,970 --> 00:36:00,850
This guy is an amazing leader to have the courage and the honesty to go to them and say, hey,
608
00:36:00,930 --> 00:36:02,530
man, you are a great leader.
609
00:36:02,690 --> 00:36:05,410
I really appreciate what I'm seeing here and what you're doing.
610
00:36:05,570 --> 00:36:06,690
That takes a lot of courage.
611
00:36:06,850 --> 00:36:10,290
And a lot of us, you know, I know I didn't have that kind of courage.
612
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:16,360
Back, you know, before I started doing this work, doing Rob's work, and I would actually get
613
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,640
jealous and see people that were succeeding, and I'm like, I hate that guy.
614
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,800
And I want to tear him down, and I want to make him look wrong, and I want to find that little
615
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,680
thing that thread that I could pull to make him look bad.
616
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:34,280
And when you can be honest with yourself and know that, wow, I, I really, I don't have that. I appreciate that. Then you can honor.
617
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,280
And so I would say it's a practice, guys.
618
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,840
So get out, honor somebody, you know, honor your father, honor your mother, honor somebody in, in the military.
619
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:47,040
And I will say this and Tim, like I said, you know, I appreciate your service in 23 years of
620
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,320
your life in the military is amazing, absolutely amazing.
621
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,600
And you know, that to me deserves to be honored from the point of coming from the heart.
622
00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:03,040
And I know and I have a friend in the in who was in the army and he he was injured and he got medically discharged.
623
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,000
And he says people come up to him all the time and they're like, Thank you for your service.
624
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:11,170
And to a point it angers because it almost feels like to him a knee jerk response like, oh,
625
00:37:11,250 --> 00:37:13,890
thank you for your service or somebody sneezes, you go, oh, God bless you.
626
00:37:13,970 --> 00:37:15,090
You know, there's no heart behind it.
627
00:37:15,250 --> 00:37:16,850
There's not that, oh, thank you for your service.
628
00:37:17,250 --> 00:37:23,090
Whereas if you really come from here, you can still say, hey, thank you for your service. Lands differently, doesn't it?
629
00:37:23,170 --> 00:37:27,410
And that's where that honor comes in and why it's so important. It's love. It's the heart.
630
00:37:27,890 --> 00:37:31,330
So when you're coming from there, it's going to make all the difference in the world.
631
00:37:31,730 --> 00:37:37,030
So I just wanted to kind of throw that in there because because it is not just a knee jerk.
632
00:37:37,110 --> 00:37:41,750
I tell people all the time and I get a lot of crap for this when I say, just never say I'm sorry.
633
00:37:41,830 --> 00:37:44,150
People are like, what are you talking about? I just screwed up.
634
00:37:44,230 --> 00:37:45,350
I'm gonna go say, I'm sorry.
635
00:37:45,430 --> 00:37:49,830
Well, if it's coming from here, coming from your head, and you're like, oh, I'm sorry, it's a knee jerk reaction.
636
00:37:49,910 --> 00:37:50,790
There's no heart behind it.
637
00:37:50,950 --> 00:37:56,150
But if you couldn't say, I'm sorry, and you had to show them that you understand what you did
638
00:37:56,310 --> 00:38:01,590
and you're never gonna do it again, and that you are, how you feel about what you've done, then
639
00:38:01,590 --> 00:38:05,110
you could say, I'm sorry, and it lands differently because now it's coming from the heart.
640
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:06,040
Tim Staton: Wow.
641
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,760
Eric Rogell: I understand that I did this and how that made you feel and the consequence that happened.
642
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,920
And I promise you that'll never happen again.
643
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,280
And I am truly sorry. Very different. See what I mean? So it's that.
644
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,400
That's where those things come from. That takes courage too.
645
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:24,040
So I just wanted to kind of throw that in there, Tim, because I think it's important as a leader
646
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to know that coming from the heart, coming from love, honoring the people that are around you is so critically important.
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Tim Staton: Absolutely. And thank you. So the last question that I have is, what is something that we haven't
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talked about, but you're like, you know what?
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I really feel like I need to get this off my chest.
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I really need to share this with everybody.
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And you haven't asked me about it.
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So that's my last question. Yeah.
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Eric Rogell: No. And I appreciate that.
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I think, listen, we've gotten into a lot of really great stuff here.
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You know, the warrior, lover, King, hero, the hero and the villain, you know, the sacred seven
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core values, which are so important.
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And I, and I think one of the other pillars that, that's in the book, and it's come up, you
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know, like I, so Rob was raised very differently than I was raised.
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I was raised to be soft.
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I was raised by a single mom.
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So I was very overly protect, quiet, soft.
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Don't try anything, don't do anything, stay inside.
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And I rebelled against that.
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Rob was raised on a cattle ranch by a rancher who, you know, he truly honored and admired and respected so much.
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He was respected in the community.
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He was very much a John Wayne type of character.
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And one of the things that he instilled in Rob was pay attention.
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Anytime anything negative would happen or he'd get hurt or something would break or God damn
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it, Rob, you're not paying attention. Right?
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And the military, same thing.
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It's pay attention or shit happens, right?
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So that was one of the things that he really made very clear to me is that attention is everything.
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If you remember one thing from this, guys, attention is everything.
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Whatever your attention is on is a result you're going to get.
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So if your attention is on, I'm going to fail, or this is awful, or I hate this, or this sucks,
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or that's what you're going to experience.
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But if your attention is on, what am I learning from this?
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Why did I create this happening?
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All right, I'm in this right now. Now, this isn't ideal.
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What's my learn from this? What am I learning?
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What's the wisdom that I'm taking?
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I'm getting these battle scars.
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What's the wisdom I'm taking from them?
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And that's the way you put your attention. So attention is everything.
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And, you know, listen, I would say to that, one of the things to keep in mind always is you
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are already a great leader. You are already greatness. You just forgot.
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And you just have to remember who you are.
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You have to remember what a great leader you are.
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What a great, whatever it is that you do, musician, artist, father, mother, what a great brother you are.
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And keep your attention on that because attention is everything.
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So focus of attention, courage by the way, is attention out, right?
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When something out there scares us or there's fear, it's attention out on it.
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Fear is attention collapsing in on yourself.
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You're like, oh my God, what's happening? This is terrible. I hate this. It's attention out.
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So it's always remembering your attention is everything and keep your attention on the win,
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keep your attention on the positive, keep the attention on achieving greatness, remembering
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who you are as greatness, attention on being a great leader, and if it sucks, what am I learning from this?
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Keep your attention on the learn, right?
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Earning these battle scars, now I got to get some wisdom from them because I can pass that on. So attention is everything.
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So that would be what we haven't discussed that I really would love the audience to get is focus
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your attention and know where your attention is, positive or the negative.
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Tim Staton: Absolutely. So, Eric, I just want to say thank you for being here.
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And if you're listening to this, right now, go to the descriptions.
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You'll find all the links to his latest book, Lions, where is lambs?
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00:41:43,110 --> 00:41:47,830
You'll find information on how to get in touch with him and how you can get to all the stuff
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that he has going on.
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So, Eric, thank you again for being on the show.
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I had a great time talking to you and putting this on.
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So thank you so much.
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Eric Rogell: And listen, Tim, I really appreciate you inviting me on. It was an honor. It was terrific. I had a blast.
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Tim Staton: As always, thank you for stopping by and checking out this episode and listening to it.
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I really hope that you enjoyed it.
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Before we go, I'd like to ask a favor of you, if I could.
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If you could please share this episode with one or two people who you think might like this topic.
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If you haven't followed or subscribed on the platform that you're listening to and hit all the
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bells and icons and all the whistles so that you know that when we post another episode, you'll be alerted.
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Please go ahead and do all that before you go.
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If you got some value out of this episode, please leave a review or a comment so we can help
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spread the show to other people who might be interested in the topics that we've talked about
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here today, but may not have found our show yet.
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Again, thanks for stopping by.
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I'm Tim Steaton, stayin' the obvious.