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Speaker 1: M hm okay. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session to ten of the Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into the episode right after a word from our sponsors. Black people's relationships with religion and spirituality is a long and storied one. As of late, I've been seeing more references from sisters exploring African traditional religions as a means of reconnecting to parts of our history and wanted to learn a little bit more about it to help us dig a little deeper into this area. Today, I'm joined by Dr Diane Stewart. Dr Stewart is an Associate Professor of Religion and African American Studies at Emory University, where she created the course Black Love. She earned her m dea from Harvard Divinity School and her PhD in Systematic theology from Union Theological Seminary in New York City and lives here in Atlanta. Dr Stewart and I chatted about some of the major tenants of African traditional religions, some of the common misconceptions, and she shared some of her favorite resources for anyone wanting to learn more. If there's something that resonates with you while listening to our conversation, please be sure to share with us using the hashtag tv G in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today. That just Stewart, thank you. What's my pleasure? Yeah, I would love for you to get us started just by telling us a little bit about your journey. How did you come to study this area of theology and how has it connected you to communities in your travels. Thank you for the question. I would say that my journey, in some ways, it has many beginnings, but the most important beginning was my experience in college. I was actually an English major and then I was double majoring with African American studies, but it was so early at that time for African American studies at my institution that it was listed under social science. So I wasn't a religion major at all. But what happens that predominantly white campuses, as black students will get drawn to wherever the black professors are. And so Dr Josiah Young was in the religion department. He was amazing. He worked with the Joint Dance Troupe and I had to take a class with him, and then I just took probably four or five classes with him by the time I finished, and I couldn't stop. And so he taught us so many facets of Black religious experience Afrikaana, if I can use that as an umbrella for Africa and the diaspora Afrikaana religious experience. We learned not just about mainline Christianity, but about the Nation of Islam, the more science, temple conjuring Hudu, black Hebraic traditions, also African indigenous religions or what I call African heritage religions, Black liberation theology, woman is theology, African theology, including African feminist theology, and then everything began to click for me in his class in terms of understanding my own background and spiritual heritage. I'm originally from Jamaica, from the Caribbean. I grew up in the northeast in Hartford, Connecticut, and I attended Catholic schools from the age of six to the age of eighteen. And I think even that background, it's another beginning for me because in so many ways I was compelled to think theologically, even at a vernacular level as a child, growing up thinking about the religious education I was receiving in school, and then also going to a United Methodist Church which was predominantly Jamaican, other Caribbeans, some African Americans, and then having friends who belonged to the Colic Church and my neighbors who were Baptists and going to church with them, and having relatives who are also Holje or Pentecostal. I grew up in a very diverse ecumenical even Christian environ at but at the same time, there was that cultural heritage, these spiritual traditions and remedies and practices that people sometimes whispered about in my household, particularly the women in and around my family. Circles that were always intriguing and interesting to me. Right, So even when I would go to birthday parties of some of the people I went to school, but I was bust out. I was part of that time when people were desegregating school systems, and I was part of a project that was about busting out very bright quote unquote inner city children, black and brown kids, to white suburban schools. And so I went to this Catholic school. And so when I would attend birthday parties of my friends who are Irish Catholics or Italian Catholics, I would see little food offerings in front of statues at their homes. I would see things that were not part of the Orthodox tradition we were learning in school. So I learned very early that there's the Orthodox confessional faith, right, what we profess as Christians or what we say we believe in practice. But then there is the vernacular, the kind of vernacular spirituality, the broader range of practices and beliefs and customs that have deep spiritual roots that people engage in whether or not they're willing to admit it or confess to it. So there are these professed beliefs and then there are these practical beliefs, and so all of that had me curious. And I think when I got to college and started taking courses with Dr Young, I began to find the conceptual framework for understanding my own African spiritual heritage. Things just click to me. Made sense to me. It sounds like, you know, it's always so interesting when we're able to kind of look bag maybe in the college years on like our earlier chalities. Here is is it makes sense of like, oh, that's what was happening in my friends z right connects indeed, So I'm wondering if you can do a little breakdown for us of some of the different types of African and African diaspora religions. Yes, first, let me say that there are a number of folks scholars as well, but even just you know, your everyday people who take issue with the concept of religion. I often remind my students when I teach that religion is our scholarly folk term. People live their lives right, They live their lives in their cultures, orienting themselves to the traditions that they have been bequeathed, and so religion really is a scholarly term that we used to organize ideas about the spiritual domain, and whether that is institutional or un institutional. We need that term as scholars of religion, and we become so accustomed to it in the Western world that we think it's just natural and it emerged out of communities. It really is this kind of scholarly term. And a lot of practitioners of African heritage religions don't like to be I'm told that they practice a religion. They like to think of it as we are living a way of life. We are orienting ourselves in the way of life. And it's really true that what you have in a lot of African societies are ways of life, cultures that are deeply grounded and ideas that value and promote the interaction with the invisible world domain. There is a visible world domain and there is an invisible world domain. And I often say to my students that the concept of family is one of the most important lenses. It's one of the most important portals to understanding African heritage religions or religious cultures. Right, that family doesn't end when people die, that the invisible world is a very vibrant and active world, and the invisible powers. Those on the other side have access to knowledge and power that we need. And ritual, religious ritual, sacred ritual is the way to get in touch with the invisible world powers. And so it's I think it's really important to begin in that way. And those invisible powers show up in people's lives in all kinds of ways, and so people interact with these deities or powers. And they're often associated with aspects of nature, right with water, rivers, oceans, ponds, with mineral life, with plant life, with animal life, with human life. They're associated with volcanoes and all different aspects of nature, parts of the human body, certain colors, and they're just quite vibrant and multifarious and diverse kinds of entities. Every aspect of African life involves encounter with and exchange with the invisible domain, right and with invisible powers. And I often say to my students, especially for the diaspora, because of censorship, because of the kind of policing and punishing of African heritage religions, we don't have extensive records about those religious traditions. I often say that it's important to not just look for where do I see deities showing up or where do I see similar kinds of phenomena that we would associate with monotheistic traditions such as Christianity or Islam or Judaism. I say that we have to think of African heritage religions as family traditions. They are traditions about family relationships. Another very important lens or portal to perceiving African heritage religions in the lives of African peoples in the continent and in the diaspora is health and healing. Another important portal would be dance and music. Another one would be agriculture and nourishment. Another one would be security and protection, and another one is weaponry and warfare. And that weaponry and warfare repertoire becomes very important in the diaspora for people who were enslaved in this country for two hundred and forty six years. And oftentimes this is what's really troubling, tricky, and maybe even deceptive about what we know about African heritage religions in the diaspora. Oftentimes they become reduced to weaponry in warfare because the sensational and the harmful or destructive capacities that are associated with spiritual force, which has taken very seriously in African spiritual cultures. African heritage religions get reduced to that, you know, and that is such a reductive view. And so yes, there are those weaponry and warfare repertoires as well. So it's important to think of African religions as ways of life. They are not confessional religions. You don't profess something, you don't profess belief in something. They're not about confessing a faith in some sort of entity the way Christianity might be or Islam might be, for example. They are about practicing a faith, practicing a way of life. Can you talk about some of the common religious practices across the diaspora. Some of the traditions that have been most pronounced in the diaspora, particularly today are definitely the Europa Lukumi Ifa, that complex of traditions which have strong europe heritage. In Arisha. Let me also say Arisha that complex has strong roots in parts of modern day Nigeria. Been in some parts of Ghana, but I would say more so modern day Nigeria and Benin and other complexes are the Congo, Bantu and Gola. These are the different name Jewel Here they're also known as Paolo in Cuba. That complex is emerging out of West Central Africa, and this is something a lot of people don't really understand. About forty seven percent from what we know now, of the Africans who were deported into the slave trade from the fourteen hundreds, those folks were going over to Portugal in Spain from the fourteen hundreds to the nineteen hundreds came out of West Central Africa. The area that we identified with the Congo people's and I mean Congo with a K, not the modern day countries of Congo spelled with the sea. Now those peoples are from that region and including Angola, Angola, modern day Republic of Congo and modern day Democratic Republic of Congo, which was formerly the Desire. And so that complex is very pronounced, but they become very pronounced through their sacred medicines, not through a quote unquote pantheon of deities. And that's why it's even harder to see the Congo complex. We can see the Eurba complex because the Arisha, the community of deities or powers, are so prominent and it's easy to identify them, whereas with Congo we often see minkisi the sacred medicines, and those are not often as easy to recognize, but they have certainly influenced African American traditions such as conjuring, Vudu, Caribbean traditions such as obia, and by the way, Obia was practiced in North America as well, but a lot of people are not aware of that. Another major complex would be the a Con complex coming out of the Goal Post or modern day Ghana for the most part, parts of Ivory Post as well, very similar nature based religio just traditions, the abussam a kind of community of deities or powers similar to the Euroba, and also that the whole Me and Togo parts of Ghana complex is. The last one is vo do. People would typically pronounced the term voodo. A lot of practitioners of this tradition prefer the pronunciation vo do to separate it from the way the United States and the Western world has invented this tradition of dark evil magic and called it voo doo, and they don't want their tradition to be associated with that invention, that kind of Western imaginary, so to speak. About African heritage religions, so those are some of the major complexes. As I said, voo Doo is associated more with the home, which is modern day been in Republic have Been in which is right next door to Nigeria, and so Europa and vo Do traditions have a long history of exchange and they're very similar. They're almost like sibling traditions. And Togo also is a strong center of voodoo. And the people of Ghana are wood with songs as well. They practice voodoo tradition, very powerful center of vood do as well. So those are some of the complexes. But as I said, there are other iterations of African heritage religions or at least a religious practices that speak to cosmology, speak to spirituality, that have to do with sacred medicines and so Conju and Hudu, I would argue, are great examples of that. Aspects of Obia tradition in the Caribbean are great examples of that. They called that boso demandinga of course you hear the men dingo in that term in Brazil. Before condomblay even emerged in Brazil in the eighteenth century, Africans would wear these little small pouches around their necks. Filled with herbs and other healing elements for protection. And Dr CHOI, it should not surprise us that in context of slavery that the this aspect of African heritage religions would become quite pronounced. I talked to my students about sometimes like seven to ten different aspects of African heritage religions to help us know how we can identify them. And one is the prevalence or the belief in neutral mystical power, that there is neutral mystical power, that power can be tapped into as a protective force, as a destructive force. And boy, don't you need some destructive powers if you're an enslaved person. You need some protective powers if you're an enslaved person. And I tell you, in North America we are seeing this. The archaeologists are finding these little bundles, which is so African, these bundles tied and contained in cloth or different kinds of containers underneath old architectural designs from the slave period. They're finding them, and they're finding sharp pins and nails and marbles and other kinds of elements in there. But I tell you, Dr Joy, what's not in there? What is it? The herbs, they have already disintegrated, especially in the Congo tradition. Many of these traditions, you need all forms of life to heal and protect. You need human life, you need plant life, animal life, and mineral life. And so those pins the dirt, the grave, dirt, all of that where the ancestral power is to be found. All of that is often for protection. And boy, wouldn't you need protection as an enslaved person, not knowing what could happen to you. And so those traditions become very dominant. But what's sad is that you can't reduce African religions to those traditions, but they are important for people of African heritage during the slave period. More from my conversation with Dr stew It after the break, I just do it. I wonder if you could it give us those seven commonalities that tell us so I mentioned some of them. I one is, these traditions are not confessional religions, right, they are ways of life. The second is, I'd like to use the term they are communal things. We are talking about the divine as a community. The divine operate as a community. Africans have both the polly and the model. They have the idea of the One, the High God, and they have the idea of the many, what some would call Polypeism, and they are a divine community. So I love that thought. The third is ancestral veneration. I don't care where you go in Africa, from North Africa to all the way down to the tip of the Cape of Good Hope, from the coast of Ghana all the way over to Djibouti and Kenya and Ethiopia. Africans are empowered to stay in connection with their ancestors. They belo leave in ancestral power and ancestral realness. It's a very important concept. The Episcopalian Bishop Desmond Tutu says, I don't care what anyone says. I'm a Christian, but I'm an African Christian and I'm an African first, and I will never ever let go of my ancestors. So that is critical, the power of ancestors, the belief in ancestral life after death, and the power of ancestors that they are still part of the family. Another is divination and herbalism. There are particular technologies that are used to understand the past, the present and to look toward the future in terms of major life decisions, in terms of sickness and health, and sickness and health are treated holistically. You cannot have even physical illness without looking into the mental, the spiritual, the emotional health of the person, the family, the community, the society. All of this is treated holistically. And divination herbalism they go together are in many respects. Right. There are usually herbal remedies that are prescribed to heal clients. So that's an important dimension. And this is very spiritual. The deities, the gods are involved in divination and herbalism. For example, plants. Plants are sung to when plants are picked and will do they are prepared, they must be as permission, and they are making a sacrifice. So it's a very serious endeavor to pick a leaf from a plant. You are sacrificing life to give life to something else. And so there's also animal sacrifice and food offerings. And when people say, well, why do Africans sacrifice animals, Well, we first of all, we can ask that about multiple religions around the world, because multiple religions around the world practice animal sacrifice. But I often say Africans and people I think around the world across time. Sacrifice animals because we eat animals. Eating nourishment is a sacramental endeavor. It's a sac a mental act. And so animal sacrifice is a part of healing and nurturing in many rituals for healing or for restoring balance, whatever it might be. After the animals are sacrificed and the vital organs are offered to the deities, the animal is cleaned and taken home and the client is expected to cook the animal and have a meal and share it with their family and friends. This is a blessing. It's like the person receiving the communion right receiving the sacrament of communion in the Catholic Church or the Christian Church, the Protestant churches as well, it's a very similar thing. So and I shouldn't just say animal sacrifice. I should say food offerings, animal sacrifice and broader offerings, because sometimes the offering that will be expected would be to go and volunteer at a youth center, to give cloth, to give clothing to children. So offerings, period are such an important part of these traditions. So let's see where my doctor joy us through it. That was for neutral mystical power, which I've talked about again, that there is neutral mystical power in the universe and it can be used productively or destructively. But let me say this, dr Joy, when you think about the many persons who are accessing spiritual power, accessing it because they want to bring either good fortune to their lives, think about the nain of health and think about how many stories we've heard or we've seen on those crime shows where doctors and nurses betrayed their trespass, transgress their oath to heal and kill patients with medicine. Right, one person's medicine is another person's poison. So I only use that as a way of showing that there is the opportunity to use force, medicine spiritual power positively or negatively in any setting, in any tradition. So another important aspect is music and dance. Not that all music and dance are related to religion and African Heritage religions, but dance is prayer, dances invocation of the spirit. If you want to understand liturgy and African Heritage religions, you have to take seriously that dance vocabularies are prayer vocabularies. They are communication with the divine and so you cannot have real religious ritual that is community oriented that without that music and dance. They're important for invoking the spirit, so to speak. And then we have very important what many scholars will call spirit possession or a spirit mediumship. Oftentimes a power, a deity and ancestor has now become embodied, has entered the body cavity of the host of the practitioner and is communicating with the community. And another way to think about that. People might not like these comparisons, but this is a part of revelation. This is how revelation occurs. In African heritage religions. Some people would say, for religions of the quote unquote book, which were also oral religions before they started writing them down, that God reveals God's Self through the Bible or the Koran. But this is a very important part of revelation. And I like to use some of the practitioner words I've encountered in the field. In Trinidad, I love the language that they use, they call it manifestation, and love that the power manifests in the body in the community. And then in Brazil they use the language of that you're incorporating the spirit in the body, and this is how practitioners communicate with their beloved deities to whom they relate and get healing prescriptions for their children and their families, they get advice. It's a very important part of the tradition. So those are some that I would emphasize just so much to go into doctors too. What I mean, my goodness, I really feel like, especially as you talk about like the dance and the singing right like, I feel like those are the most clear examples we see in like modern day like black religious experience. I feel like there is a direct tide to these historical ways of life as you are describing it. I wonder if we can talk a little bit about how these experiences have been demonized as opposed to European theologies. You've talked about it a little bit, but I think that that is something that a lot of people struggle with because they are often seen as opposition to what we've been taught in terms of Christianity and those kinds of things. It really feels like some of these experiences have been demonized. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that. So first and foremost, I really want audiences to understand that if there's one reason we should appreciate and and take some interest in the African heritage religions, they were a lifeline. They were our lifeline during slaves, especially across the fight or Americas and Caribbean. They were first of all demonized, They were criminalized and policed through legislation as a result of their involvement. How significant they work for solidifying and helping African descendants to actually rebel and resist slavery, which included things like burning plantations, burning property. So that's important to know that this is a very important starting portant for having African heritage religions points. But even beyond that, when the Europeans were in Africa, particularly in the seventeenth century eighteenth century, there was already a kind of literature of tales and a kind of oral tradition and some writing about African spiritual practices and ideas that look down upon them. Because in Europe we often think that Christianity is Europe's religion, it's not Christianity. After the rise of the Early Church, where we see the formation of the Church in the scriptures and the Pauline scriptures, and paul Is trying to form these churches in Asia Minor or what we would call parts of the Mediterranean in Northeast Africa today, and these churches spreading, these little house churches. Once Constantine adopts Christianity in the late fourth century as part of as the religion, the official religion of the Roman Empire, it takes on a different power valence. It becomes a religion of empire, and Christianity becomes a violent, um, dramatic, and terroristic religion that conquers Europe and demonizes Europe's indigenous religions. Europe calls it the Dark Ages because they have now assented to a Christian identity, a Christian understanding of themselves, of their their heritage. They've wiped out their indigenous religions, although not totally, not totally, there's some interesting things that have happened there. And so Christianity is a conkering religion in Europe. And so when these European explorers and travelers are going out, they have been taught to hate and demonize their own indigenous religion, and then they're seeing some similar kinds of practices, and so they are then also going to look down upon and demonize and considerate backwards and considerate not of God, only of the devil, because that's the only way they could understand something. If it's not of God and its spiritual power, it's demonic power. Right, So that narrative, that kind of lens is also operative, and you see it in the colonial records. So they're constantly, you know, comparing, oh, we did this in the old country and that was backwards and evil and demonic and what have you. So you have that right going on as well in the colonies. And so there are different iterations of the denigration and police and in criminalization of African heritage religions in the New World. But this idea of that, if you're not worshiping the Chris Shin Good, every other power is suspect, is evil, is of the devil. African religions have no chance in that context. Right. There's another very important context. During the early twentieth century, US occupied Haiti and the Marines came back to the United States. Many of these Marines with all these tales and hearsay and all kinds of outlandish claims about voodoo in Haiti, and that started the long tradition of the demonization of voodoo in American culture especially and in the wider Western world. It's these kinds of deep layers of understanding that we never get when we learn about voodoo. We always have these reductive treatments of any quote unquote magical aspects of these traditions. So we have to think about the police and the criminalization of the containment of African heritage religions relative to a long history of rebellion of these traditions and the Haitian Revolution, there's a great example of these traditions being the groundwork for bringing solidarity and weaponry and warfare to rebel against the colonial and enslaving powers during the period of enslavement. And then, of course the kind of theological perceived theological differences that Europeans, who have been conquered themselves by Christianity, who had taught to hate and despise their own indigenous religions, only kind of extended that kind of analytic lens to the Africans, the Asians, the Pacific Islanders, and the Aboriginal peoples that they were encountering during their quote unquote era of discovery, which in itself is an invented urn and concept. More from my conversation with Dr Stewart after the break, I'd love to hear your thoughts about the ways that Africa and traditional religions foster collectivism and community that feels particularly i think attractive to younger people, and I think especially after this last year, when people have felt so isolated and we know that we are grappling with an epidemic of loneliness, I love for you to just hear about, you know how some of these religions lost to this sense of collectivism and community. Indeed, let me say one thing first. I think we have to take seriously the psychic and mental impact of colonial teachings about blackness, black people, black women's worth or lack of it, as sinners, all the damaging effects of certain forms of Christianity that have been quite pronounced. Certainly, there are ways that we have resisted that in Black Christian communities. There's no part about that. But I have to say that African heritage religions provide a certain kind of solidarity around a new spiritual, cultural, and even personal consciousness about a person's worth. When you're in a tradition where you don't have to do mental gymnastics to get that white bearded, white male god off your eyeball, as you know, Feely would say in the color purple. When you're in a tradition where the gods look like you, that's already doing something in fostering a healing community. So there's a lot of attraction to these traditions because they're decolonial in that way. It's not that they haven't been influenced by colonialism, especially when we look at, you know, some of the impact through the Cuban traditions, where white Cubans have been a part of it. But in general, you're looking at traditions that offer new ways of recreating the black self and the black female self, in particular their female deities. It's just, you know, incredible, right. But also these communities are house communities. In fact, many times their temples are understood to be house communities. What do they do? Sometimes people also talk and think about the mothers, and I mean that in the sense of their spiritual role in these communities. They feed people, for example, organized around a ceremony or a healing ceremony or celebration for one of the deities or whatever it might be the anniversary of someone's initiation. Oh my goodness, you pull community together. You have to sing people into health, you have to dance people into health. You have to create the spread the feast not only for the deities, but for the community, for the children, for everyone to eat. So it's like building home, building family. You are participating together in a ritual language that connects you to African languages. All of these kinds of the singing, the movement, the collective movement, with the dances. So the ritual life is very communally oriented. The way in which persons, even clients who might not be a part of these African heritage traditions, the way clients have to participate in their own healing is also very powerful for many people, not just This has been such an incredible wealth of information. I feel like we could be here for hours digging into all of this. But can you share some of your favorite resources for anyone who wants to learn more? Yes, I would point people to to texts. Initially, Doctor one Day Bimbala his book Ifa Will Mend Our Broken World, and it's a very accessible book at the vernacular level. It's wonderful. He's one of the most prominent Eurobea scholars and Baba Laws, which is a priest of ifa Ifa will mend our broken world. And another is by his son, Dr Cola Bimbala, who's a professor of philosophy and law at Howard University. His book euro Book Culture of Philosophical account. Let me recommend us to the Encyclopedia of African and African American Religions. It's a really great reference. It's something that they might be able to access online as well. It's a wonderful reference because they have great articles in there that are quite long. Everything is in there from the Ethiopian Orthodox Church that came out of Marcus Garvey's movement, to the traditional Black churches too, I mean the most obscure African or African diasporic religions. They're they're covered. So that's just a great reference source. And I'll say there's also the Encyclopedia of Caribbean Religions, which are two volumes, very very good sources for folks as well. Again, we also know where can people find you with the best way to kind of stay in touch with all the amazing things you're doing. Yes, I am on Twitter, um at Diane M. Stewart at Diane M. Stewart. I am on Instagram, but it's pitiful. Dr Joey. I just have to tell you, my niece, my this is it is all new for me because of my book. I think, you know, I wrote a book that is more public facing black women, black law, America's War on African American marriage, and that is what got me out to social media. So it's one of the best ways. I'm also on Facebook, you know, look me up Diane with two n's d I A N N E. M. Stewart um, and I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, and so you can find they can find me on Facebook as well. Well. We appreciate it. Thank you so much. Do just do. It's such incredible information. I appreciate you she and your time with this today. Oh thank you. It was my pleasure. I so appreciate the work that Therapy for Black Girls does. It is a needed, needed resource for all of us. So thank you, thank you. I'm so glad that Dr. Stewart was able to share her expertise with us today. To learn more about her and her work, are to check out the resources she shared. Be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session to tend and don't forget to text two of your girls and tell them to check out the episode as well. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic, are just being community with other sisters, come on over and join us in the sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet design just for black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,
Speaker 1: M hm okay. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy Hard and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session to ten of the Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into the episode right after a word from our sponsors. Black people's relationships with religion and spirituality is a long and storied one. As of late, I've been seeing more references from sisters exploring African traditional religions as a means of reconnecting to parts of our history and wanted to learn a little bit more about it to help us dig a little deeper into this area. Today, I'm joined by Dr Diane Stewart. Dr Stewart is an Associate Professor of Religion and African American Studies at Emory University, where she created the course Black Love. She earned her m dea from Harvard Divinity School and her PhD in Systematic theology from Union Theological Seminary in New York City and lives here in Atlanta. Dr Stewart and I chatted about some of the major tenants of African traditional religions, some of the common misconceptions, and she shared some of her favorite resources for anyone wanting to learn more. If there's something that resonates with you while listening to our conversation, please be sure to share with us using the hashtag tv G in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today. That just Stewart, thank you. What's my pleasure? Yeah, I would love for you to get us started just by telling us a little bit about your journey. How did you come to study this area of theology and how has it connected you to communities in your travels. Thank you for the question. I would say that my journey, in some ways, it has many beginnings, but the most important beginning was my experience in college. I was actually an English major and then I was double majoring with African American studies, but it was so early at that time for African American studies at my institution that it was listed under social science. So I wasn't a religion major at all. But what happens that predominantly white campuses, as black students will get drawn to wherever the black professors are. And so Dr Josiah Young was in the religion department. He was amazing. He worked with the Joint Dance Troupe and I had to take a class with him, and then I just took probably four or five classes with him by the time I finished, and I couldn't stop. And so he taught us so many facets of Black religious experience Afrikaana, if I can use that as an umbrella for Africa and the diaspora Afrikaana religious experience. We learned not just about mainline Christianity, but about the Nation of Islam, the more science, temple conjuring Hudu, black Hebraic traditions, also African indigenous religions or what I call African heritage religions, Black liberation theology, woman is theology, African theology, including African feminist theology, and then everything began to click for me in his class in terms of understanding my own background and spiritual heritage. I'm originally from Jamaica, from the Caribbean. I grew up in the northeast in Hartford, Connecticut, and I attended Catholic schools from the age of six to the age of eighteen. And I think even that background, it's another beginning for me because in so many ways I was compelled to think theologically, even at a vernacular level as a child, growing up thinking about the religious education I was receiving in school, and then also going to a United Methodist Church which was predominantly Jamaican, other Caribbeans, some African Americans, and then having friends who belonged to the Colic Church and my neighbors who were Baptists and going to church with them, and having relatives who are also Holje or Pentecostal. I grew up in a very diverse ecumenical even Christian environ at but at the same time, there was that cultural heritage, these spiritual traditions and remedies and practices that people sometimes whispered about in my household, particularly the women in and around my family. Circles that were always intriguing and interesting to me. Right, So even when I would go to birthday parties of some of the people I went to school, but I was bust out. I was part of that time when people were desegregating school systems, and I was part of a project that was about busting out very bright quote unquote inner city children, black and brown kids, to white suburban schools. And so I went to this Catholic school. And so when I would attend birthday parties of my friends who are Irish Catholics or Italian Catholics, I would see little food offerings in front of statues at their homes. I would see things that were not part of the Orthodox tradition we were learning in school. So I learned very early that there's the Orthodox confessional faith, right, what we profess as Christians or what we say we believe in practice. But then there is the vernacular, the kind of vernacular spirituality, the broader range of practices and beliefs and customs that have deep spiritual roots that people engage in whether or not they're willing to admit it or confess to it. So there are these professed beliefs and then there are these practical beliefs, and so all of that had me curious. And I think when I got to college and started taking courses with Dr Young, I began to find the conceptual framework for understanding my own African spiritual heritage. Things just click to me. Made sense to me. It sounds like, you know, it's always so interesting when we're able to kind of look bag maybe in the college years on like our earlier chalities. Here is is it makes sense of like, oh, that's what was happening in my friends z right connects indeed, So I'm wondering if you can do a little breakdown for us of some of the different types of African and African diaspora religions. Yes, first, let me say that there are a number of folks scholars as well, but even just you know, your everyday people who take issue with the concept of religion. I often remind my students when I teach that religion is our scholarly folk term. People live their lives right, They live their lives in their cultures, orienting themselves to the traditions that they have been bequeathed, and so religion really is a scholarly term that we used to organize ideas about the spiritual domain, and whether that is institutional or un institutional. We need that term as scholars of religion, and we become so accustomed to it in the Western world that we think it's just natural and it emerged out of communities. It really is this kind of scholarly term. And a lot of practitioners of African heritage religions don't like to be I'm told that they practice a religion. They like to think of it as we are living a way of life. We are orienting ourselves in the way of life. And it's really true that what you have in a lot of African societies are ways of life, cultures that are deeply grounded and ideas that value and promote the interaction with the invisible world domain. There is a visible world domain and there is an invisible world domain. And I often say to my students that the concept of family is one of the most important lenses. It's one of the most important portals to understanding African heritage religions or religious cultures. Right, that family doesn't end when people die, that the invisible world is a very vibrant and active world, and the invisible powers. Those on the other side have access to knowledge and power that we need. And ritual, religious ritual, sacred ritual is the way to get in touch with the invisible world powers. And so it's I think it's really important to begin in that way. And those invisible powers show up in people's lives in all kinds of ways, and so people interact with these deities or powers. And they're often associated with aspects of nature, right with water, rivers, oceans, ponds, with mineral life, with plant life, with animal life, with human life. They're associated with volcanoes and all different aspects of nature, parts of the human body, certain colors, and they're just quite vibrant and multifarious and diverse kinds of entities. Every aspect of African life involves encounter with and exchange with the invisible domain, right and with invisible powers. And I often say to my students, especially for the diaspora, because of censorship, because of the kind of policing and punishing of African heritage religions, we don't have extensive records about those religious traditions. I often say that it's important to not just look for where do I see deities showing up or where do I see similar kinds of phenomena that we would associate with monotheistic traditions such as Christianity or Islam or Judaism. I say that we have to think of African heritage religions as family traditions. They are traditions about family relationships. Another very important lens or portal to perceiving African heritage religions in the lives of African peoples in the continent and in the diaspora is health and healing. Another important portal would be dance and music. Another one would be agriculture and nourishment. Another one would be security and protection, and another one is weaponry and warfare. And that weaponry and warfare repertoire becomes very important in the diaspora for people who were enslaved in this country for two hundred and forty six years. And oftentimes this is what's really troubling, tricky, and maybe even deceptive about what we know about African heritage religions in the diaspora. Oftentimes they become reduced to weaponry in warfare because the sensational and the harmful or destructive capacities that are associated with spiritual force, which has taken very seriously in African spiritual cultures. African heritage religions get reduced to that, you know, and that is such a reductive view. And so yes, there are those weaponry and warfare repertoires as well. So it's important to think of African religions as ways of life. They are not confessional religions. You don't profess something, you don't profess belief in something. They're not about confessing a faith in some sort of entity the way Christianity might be or Islam might be, for example. They are about practicing a faith, practicing a way of life. Can you talk about some of the common religious practices across the diaspora. Some of the traditions that have been most pronounced in the diaspora, particularly today are definitely the Europa Lukumi Ifa, that complex of traditions which have strong europe heritage. In Arisha. Let me also say Arisha that complex has strong roots in parts of modern day Nigeria. Been in some parts of Ghana, but I would say more so modern day Nigeria and Benin and other complexes are the Congo, Bantu and Gola. These are the different name Jewel Here they're also known as Paolo in Cuba. That complex is emerging out of West Central Africa, and this is something a lot of people don't really understand. About forty seven percent from what we know now, of the Africans who were deported into the slave trade from the fourteen hundreds, those folks were going over to Portugal in Spain from the fourteen hundreds to the nineteen hundreds came out of West Central Africa. The area that we identified with the Congo people's and I mean Congo with a K, not the modern day countries of Congo spelled with the sea. Now those peoples are from that region and including Angola, Angola, modern day Republic of Congo and modern day Democratic Republic of Congo, which was formerly the Desire. And so that complex is very pronounced, but they become very pronounced through their sacred medicines, not through a quote unquote pantheon of deities. And that's why it's even harder to see the Congo complex. We can see the Eurba complex because the Arisha, the community of deities or powers, are so prominent and it's easy to identify them, whereas with Congo we often see minkisi the sacred medicines, and those are not often as easy to recognize, but they have certainly influenced African American traditions such as conjuring, Vudu, Caribbean traditions such as obia, and by the way, Obia was practiced in North America as well, but a lot of people are not aware of that. Another major complex would be the a Con complex coming out of the Goal Post or modern day Ghana for the most part, parts of Ivory Post as well, very similar nature based religio just traditions, the abussam a kind of community of deities or powers similar to the Euroba, and also that the whole Me and Togo parts of Ghana complex is. The last one is vo do. People would typically pronounced the term voodo. A lot of practitioners of this tradition prefer the pronunciation vo do to separate it from the way the United States and the Western world has invented this tradition of dark evil magic and called it voo doo, and they don't want their tradition to be associated with that invention, that kind of Western imaginary, so to speak. About African heritage religions, so those are some of the major complexes. As I said, voo Doo is associated more with the home, which is modern day been in Republic have Been in which is right next door to Nigeria, and so Europa and vo Do traditions have a long history of exchange and they're very similar. They're almost like sibling traditions. And Togo also is a strong center of voodoo. And the people of Ghana are wood with songs as well. They practice voodoo tradition, very powerful center of vood do as well. So those are some of the complexes. But as I said, there are other iterations of African heritage religions or at least a religious practices that speak to cosmology, speak to spirituality, that have to do with sacred medicines and so Conju and Hudu, I would argue, are great examples of that. Aspects of Obia tradition in the Caribbean are great examples of that. They called that boso demandinga of course you hear the men dingo in that term in Brazil. Before condomblay even emerged in Brazil in the eighteenth century, Africans would wear these little small pouches around their necks. Filled with herbs and other healing elements for protection. And Dr CHOI, it should not surprise us that in context of slavery that the this aspect of African heritage religions would become quite pronounced. I talked to my students about sometimes like seven to ten different aspects of African heritage religions to help us know how we can identify them. And one is the prevalence or the belief in neutral mystical power, that there is neutral mystical power, that power can be tapped into as a protective force, as a destructive force. And boy, don't you need some destructive powers if you're an enslaved person. You need some protective powers if you're an enslaved person. And I tell you, in North America we are seeing this. The archaeologists are finding these little bundles, which is so African, these bundles tied and contained in cloth or different kinds of containers underneath old architectural designs from the slave period. They're finding them, and they're finding sharp pins and nails and marbles and other kinds of elements in there. But I tell you, Dr Joy, what's not in there? What is it? The herbs, they have already disintegrated, especially in the Congo tradition. Many of these traditions, you need all forms of life to heal and protect. You need human life, you need plant life, animal life, and mineral life. And so those pins the dirt, the grave, dirt, all of that where the ancestral power is to be found. All of that is often for protection. And boy, wouldn't you need protection as an enslaved person, not knowing what could happen to you. And so those traditions become very dominant. But what's sad is that you can't reduce African religions to those traditions, but they are important for people of African heritage during the slave period. More from my conversation with Dr stew It after the break, I just do it. I wonder if you could it give us those seven commonalities that tell us so I mentioned some of them. I one is, these traditions are not confessional religions, right, they are ways of life. The second is, I'd like to use the term they are communal things. We are talking about the divine as a community. The divine operate as a community. Africans have both the polly and the model. They have the idea of the One, the High God, and they have the idea of the many, what some would call Polypeism, and they are a divine community. So I love that thought. The third is ancestral veneration. I don't care where you go in Africa, from North Africa to all the way down to the tip of the Cape of Good Hope, from the coast of Ghana all the way over to Djibouti and Kenya and Ethiopia. Africans are empowered to stay in connection with their ancestors. They belo leave in ancestral power and ancestral realness. It's a very important concept. The Episcopalian Bishop Desmond Tutu says, I don't care what anyone says. I'm a Christian, but I'm an African Christian and I'm an African first, and I will never ever let go of my ancestors. So that is critical, the power of ancestors, the belief in ancestral life after death, and the power of ancestors that they are still part of the family. Another is divination and herbalism. There are particular technologies that are used to understand the past, the present and to look toward the future in terms of major life decisions, in terms of sickness and health, and sickness and health are treated holistically. You cannot have even physical illness without looking into the mental, the spiritual, the emotional health of the person, the family, the community, the society. All of this is treated holistically. And divination herbalism they go together are in many respects. Right. There are usually herbal remedies that are prescribed to heal clients. So that's an important dimension. And this is very spiritual. The deities, the gods are involved in divination and herbalism. For example, plants. Plants are sung to when plants are picked and will do they are prepared, they must be as permission, and they are making a sacrifice. So it's a very serious endeavor to pick a leaf from a plant. You are sacrificing life to give life to something else. And so there's also animal sacrifice and food offerings. And when people say, well, why do Africans sacrifice animals, Well, we first of all, we can ask that about multiple religions around the world, because multiple religions around the world practice animal sacrifice. But I often say Africans and people I think around the world across time. Sacrifice animals because we eat animals. Eating nourishment is a sacramental endeavor. It's a sac a mental act. And so animal sacrifice is a part of healing and nurturing in many rituals for healing or for restoring balance, whatever it might be. After the animals are sacrificed and the vital organs are offered to the deities, the animal is cleaned and taken home and the client is expected to cook the animal and have a meal and share it with their family and friends. This is a blessing. It's like the person receiving the communion right receiving the sacrament of communion in the Catholic Church or the Christian Church, the Protestant churches as well, it's a very similar thing. So and I shouldn't just say animal sacrifice. I should say food offerings, animal sacrifice and broader offerings, because sometimes the offering that will be expected would be to go and volunteer at a youth center, to give cloth, to give clothing to children. So offerings, period are such an important part of these traditions. So let's see where my doctor joy us through it. That was for neutral mystical power, which I've talked about again, that there is neutral mystical power in the universe and it can be used productively or destructively. But let me say this, dr Joy, when you think about the many persons who are accessing spiritual power, accessing it because they want to bring either good fortune to their lives, think about the nain of health and think about how many stories we've heard or we've seen on those crime shows where doctors and nurses betrayed their trespass, transgress their oath to heal and kill patients with medicine. Right, one person's medicine is another person's poison. So I only use that as a way of showing that there is the opportunity to use force, medicine spiritual power positively or negatively in any setting, in any tradition. So another important aspect is music and dance. Not that all music and dance are related to religion and African Heritage religions, but dance is prayer, dances invocation of the spirit. If you want to understand liturgy and African Heritage religions, you have to take seriously that dance vocabularies are prayer vocabularies. They are communication with the divine and so you cannot have real religious ritual that is community oriented that without that music and dance. They're important for invoking the spirit, so to speak. And then we have very important what many scholars will call spirit possession or a spirit mediumship. Oftentimes a power, a deity and ancestor has now become embodied, has entered the body cavity of the host of the practitioner and is communicating with the community. And another way to think about that. People might not like these comparisons, but this is a part of revelation. This is how revelation occurs. In African heritage religions. Some people would say, for religions of the quote unquote book, which were also oral religions before they started writing them down, that God reveals God's Self through the Bible or the Koran. But this is a very important part of revelation. And I like to use some of the practitioner words I've encountered in the field. In Trinidad, I love the language that they use, they call it manifestation, and love that the power manifests in the body in the community. And then in Brazil they use the language of that you're incorporating the spirit in the body, and this is how practitioners communicate with their beloved deities to whom they relate and get healing prescriptions for their children and their families, they get advice. It's a very important part of the tradition. So those are some that I would emphasize just so much to go into doctors too. What I mean, my goodness, I really feel like, especially as you talk about like the dance and the singing right like, I feel like those are the most clear examples we see in like modern day like black religious experience. I feel like there is a direct tide to these historical ways of life as you are describing it. I wonder if we can talk a little bit about how these experiences have been demonized as opposed to European theologies. You've talked about it a little bit, but I think that that is something that a lot of people struggle with because they are often seen as opposition to what we've been taught in terms of Christianity and those kinds of things. It really feels like some of these experiences have been demonized. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that. So first and foremost, I really want audiences to understand that if there's one reason we should appreciate and and take some interest in the African heritage religions, they were a lifeline. They were our lifeline during slaves, especially across the fight or Americas and Caribbean. They were first of all demonized, They were criminalized and policed through legislation as a result of their involvement. How significant they work for solidifying and helping African descendants to actually rebel and resist slavery, which included things like burning plantations, burning property. So that's important to know that this is a very important starting portant for having African heritage religions points. But even beyond that, when the Europeans were in Africa, particularly in the seventeenth century eighteenth century, there was already a kind of literature of tales and a kind of oral tradition and some writing about African spiritual practices and ideas that look down upon them. Because in Europe we often think that Christianity is Europe's religion, it's not Christianity. After the rise of the Early Church, where we see the formation of the Church in the scriptures and the Pauline scriptures, and paul Is trying to form these churches in Asia Minor or what we would call parts of the Mediterranean in Northeast Africa today, and these churches spreading, these little house churches. Once Constantine adopts Christianity in the late fourth century as part of as the religion, the official religion of the Roman Empire, it takes on a different power valence. It becomes a religion of empire, and Christianity becomes a violent, um, dramatic, and terroristic religion that conquers Europe and demonizes Europe's indigenous religions. Europe calls it the Dark Ages because they have now assented to a Christian identity, a Christian understanding of themselves, of their their heritage. They've wiped out their indigenous religions, although not totally, not totally, there's some interesting things that have happened there. And so Christianity is a conkering religion in Europe. And so when these European explorers and travelers are going out, they have been taught to hate and demonize their own indigenous religion, and then they're seeing some similar kinds of practices, and so they are then also going to look down upon and demonize and considerate backwards and considerate not of God, only of the devil, because that's the only way they could understand something. If it's not of God and its spiritual power, it's demonic power. Right, So that narrative, that kind of lens is also operative, and you see it in the colonial records. So they're constantly, you know, comparing, oh, we did this in the old country and that was backwards and evil and demonic and what have you. So you have that right going on as well in the colonies. And so there are different iterations of the denigration and police and in criminalization of African heritage religions in the New World. But this idea of that, if you're not worshiping the Chris Shin Good, every other power is suspect, is evil, is of the devil. African religions have no chance in that context. Right. There's another very important context. During the early twentieth century, US occupied Haiti and the Marines came back to the United States. Many of these Marines with all these tales and hearsay and all kinds of outlandish claims about voodoo in Haiti, and that started the long tradition of the demonization of voodoo in American culture especially and in the wider Western world. It's these kinds of deep layers of understanding that we never get when we learn about voodoo. We always have these reductive treatments of any quote unquote magical aspects of these traditions. So we have to think about the police and the criminalization of the containment of African heritage religions relative to a long history of rebellion of these traditions and the Haitian Revolution, there's a great example of these traditions being the groundwork for bringing solidarity and weaponry and warfare to rebel against the colonial and enslaving powers during the period of enslavement. And then, of course the kind of theological perceived theological differences that Europeans, who have been conquered themselves by Christianity, who had taught to hate and despise their own indigenous religions, only kind of extended that kind of analytic lens to the Africans, the Asians, the Pacific Islanders, and the Aboriginal peoples that they were encountering during their quote unquote era of discovery, which in itself is an invented urn and concept. More from my conversation with Dr Stewart after the break, I'd love to hear your thoughts about the ways that Africa and traditional religions foster collectivism and community that feels particularly i think attractive to younger people, and I think especially after this last year, when people have felt so isolated and we know that we are grappling with an epidemic of loneliness, I love for you to just hear about, you know how some of these religions lost to this sense of collectivism and community. Indeed, let me say one thing first. I think we have to take seriously the psychic and mental impact of colonial teachings about blackness, black people, black women's worth or lack of it, as sinners, all the damaging effects of certain forms of Christianity that have been quite pronounced. Certainly, there are ways that we have resisted that in Black Christian communities. There's no part about that. But I have to say that African heritage religions provide a certain kind of solidarity around a new spiritual, cultural, and even personal consciousness about a person's worth. When you're in a tradition where you don't have to do mental gymnastics to get that white bearded, white male god off your eyeball, as you know, Feely would say in the color purple. When you're in a tradition where the gods look like you, that's already doing something in fostering a healing community. So there's a lot of attraction to these traditions because they're decolonial in that way. It's not that they haven't been influenced by colonialism, especially when we look at, you know, some of the impact through the Cuban traditions, where white Cubans have been a part of it. But in general, you're looking at traditions that offer new ways of recreating the black self and the black female self, in particular their female deities. It's just, you know, incredible, right. But also these communities are house communities. In fact, many times their temples are understood to be house communities. What do they do? Sometimes people also talk and think about the mothers, and I mean that in the sense of their spiritual role in these communities. They feed people, for example, organized around a ceremony or a healing ceremony or celebration for one of the deities or whatever it might be the anniversary of someone's initiation. Oh my goodness, you pull community together. You have to sing people into health, you have to dance people into health. You have to create the spread the feast not only for the deities, but for the community, for the children, for everyone to eat. So it's like building home, building family. You are participating together in a ritual language that connects you to African languages. All of these kinds of the singing, the movement, the collective movement, with the dances. So the ritual life is very communally oriented. The way in which persons, even clients who might not be a part of these African heritage traditions, the way clients have to participate in their own healing is also very powerful for many people, not just This has been such an incredible wealth of information. I feel like we could be here for hours digging into all of this. But can you share some of your favorite resources for anyone who wants to learn more? Yes, I would point people to to texts. Initially, Doctor one Day Bimbala his book Ifa Will Mend Our Broken World, and it's a very accessible book at the vernacular level. It's wonderful. He's one of the most prominent Eurobea scholars and Baba Laws, which is a priest of ifa Ifa will mend our broken world. And another is by his son, Dr Cola Bimbala, who's a professor of philosophy and law at Howard University. His book euro Book Culture of Philosophical account. Let me recommend us to the Encyclopedia of African and African American Religions. It's a really great reference. It's something that they might be able to access online as well. It's a wonderful reference because they have great articles in there that are quite long. Everything is in there from the Ethiopian Orthodox Church that came out of Marcus Garvey's movement, to the traditional Black churches too, I mean the most obscure African or African diasporic religions. They're they're covered. So that's just a great reference source. And I'll say there's also the Encyclopedia of Caribbean Religions, which are two volumes, very very good sources for folks as well. Again, we also know where can people find you with the best way to kind of stay in touch with all the amazing things you're doing. Yes, I am on Twitter, um at Diane M. Stewart at Diane M. Stewart. I am on Instagram, but it's pitiful. Dr Joey. I just have to tell you, my niece, my this is it is all new for me because of my book. I think, you know, I wrote a book that is more public facing black women, black law, America's War on African American marriage, and that is what got me out to social media. So it's one of the best ways. I'm also on Facebook, you know, look me up Diane with two n's d I A N N E. M. Stewart um, and I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, and so you can find they can find me on Facebook as well. Well. We appreciate it. Thank you so much. Do just do. It's such incredible information. I appreciate you she and your time with this today. Oh thank you. It was my pleasure. I so appreciate the work that Therapy for Black Girls does. It is a needed, needed resource for all of us. So thank you, thank you. I'm so glad that Dr. Stewart was able to share her expertise with us today. To learn more about her and her work, are to check out the resources she shared. Be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session to tend and don't forget to text two of your girls and tell them to check out the episode as well. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into this topic, are just being community with other sisters, come on over and join us in the sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet design just for black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,
