Froilan Diaz: if you believe that there's consciousness in mind and everything, then You know, as you're chopping up that head of lettuce and just shredding it apart, you know, is it is the is the lettuce as aware of what you're doing to it than the animal So I g I guess I started to question and I'm curious of your opinion on on something like that.
Siddharth: Well they say the they say the smell of moored grass is the grass sending alarm signals, right? Like that's what they said it the that thing.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. Right.
Siddharth: and yeah, they've seen that trees when they're being cut send alarm signals down through the mycelium. They're you know, those the other trees are kinda being warned. So those kinds of communication exist across i in in like plants as well.
Froilan Diaz: Hey Veiled Seekers, welcome back to the Veiled Path Podcast. I am Froilan, I am your host. Glad to have you back with me again. On this week's episode, we have a really awesome interview with the author of the upcoming work, The Neuroscience of Magic, Dr. Siddharth Ramakrishnan. But first, a quick background on Dr. Ramakrishnan's work. Dr. Siddharth Ramakrishan is a professor and the Jenny Karuthers Chair in Neuroscience at the University of Pudgett Sound. Dr. Ramakrishnan is a recipient of an NSF Career Award and a fellow of the UCLA Art Sci Center. With over 20 years of research and teaching experience, Dr. Ramakrishnan bridges cutting edge neuroscience with ancient mystical practices. His engaging talks and workshops reveal how rituals, symbols, and intuitive practice shape the brain, rewire beliefs, and unlock human potential. His books, The Neuroscience of Tarot, 2024, and the Neuroscience of Magic 2026 are with Llewellyn worldwide. You can find more of Dr. Ramakrishan at www dot brain mystic dot com. Without further ado, let's get to it, my interview with Dr. Siddhartha's Ramakrishna. Welcome to the Veil Path podcast. I am Froilan and I'm here with my guest today, Siddharth. Welcome, Siddharth. Good to have you on.
Siddharth: Thank you. Thank you so much for the invite. Thank you.
Froilan Diaz: Siddharth finished writing his new book, The Neuroscience of Magic, set to come out, I believe, in November.
Siddharth: Yes, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Awesome. Yeah. I got to have a sneak peek of this book. and I gotta say, this was a great book. It was really entertaining, and I learned a lot from it. So, congratulations on that.
Siddharth: Thank you.
Froilan Diaz: so first, I wanted a little bit about your background and get my audience familiar with where you're coming from spiritually and also your work. But as this book deals with neuroscience, please let us know your work involved therein.
Siddharth: Yeah, so I am a professor of neuroscience at a small liberal arts college in the Pacific Northwest and But I grew up in a Hindu household. I wouldn't say religious, but we had a lot of cultural traditions that involved a lot of spiritual magic and worship and rituals. And as a scientist, I've been wondering about how why we have this need for rituals, and that's kind of been in the back of my head as I was going along. And but also as growing up as Hindu, we never had the disconnect between spiritualism or religion and science. It was all interconnected. So never had that pangs of my god, am I like stepping out of my zone here?
Froilan Diaz: Right.
Siddharth: but I don't work with humans in my actual research practice. I work with animals and Also, I've been thinking a lot about animal consciousness and how different entities explore the world. So in that way I think this was a perfect confluence of trying to figure out where I came from, where my how I I treat animals and beings that I work with, and also the neuroscience research behind these things all coming together to become this perfect opportunity, write about it.
Froilan Diaz: So you said growing up Hindu, now I I was initiated by the Ramakrishna monks with Diksha, so so I have some background in, you know, Hindu spirituality, but I can attest also like there really isn't any threat to science, like science and eastern spirituality really do coincide together. But growing up in a just culturally Hindu family, what made you take Direction towards science.
Siddharth: Yeah, it's kinda funny you mentioned the Ramakrishna Math So I grew up like a five minute walk from the our local Ramakrishna Math.
Froilan Diaz: awesome.
Siddharth: and in fact every morning at four my grandma and I used to wake up and we used to walk to the Ramakrishna Math and sit there and meditate in that space.
Froilan Diaz: awesome.
Siddharth: and even now when I go back to Chennai I still like go to the the Math in the mornings. because that's one of the that's my place of peace actually. And yeah, so at home we had a an altar that we worshipped, which had all kinds of idols of different gods and goddesses. And my dad is a surgeon, but in the morning when he wakes up, his main first ritual is to bathe all the idols and and decorate them with sandalwood and and and kungumam and then after he prays is when he would do go down for his operations and all of that. So even now he's he's in his eighties, but his first thing when he wakes up in the morning is doing this. So we had that altar at home. But we were sent to this Anglo Vedic school which was the opposite of idol worship, where they actually said idol worship is not not correct. And it was more about inquiry and inquisit inquisitiveness and trying to find the the god within and it was also a branch of Hinduism but it where we in invoked the fire every Saturday and we would as students would sit around the fire and do ritual worship with the fire and make offerings to the fire and and in a way there were these two almost Different forms of Hinduism that were being dealt with. One was very idol-based, and the other one was more self-inquiry based. And
Froilan Diaz: Sure.
Siddharth: so but nobody said, you know, don't do this or don't do that. Nobody said the other was was bad, but
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: and both of them kind of were there together. and even though my dad is a doctor, he would still like practice certain esoteric practices where on a particular day when a surgery was there, he would not do the surgery in this hours of what is called Yamaganda, which is like the death hour. not because he believed in it, but because he felt like if patients believed in it, then their faith would hinder their recovery. So so it was kind of weaved into how you led your daily practice.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah, he's lining up his practice with some sort of spiritual current, just saying like it's it's the big current, so you might as well adapt to it.
Siddharth: And also because I think he says as a doctor he can do so much, but the rest of the recovery is based on the patient's own faith and how much they believe that they can actually recover. So he wants to make sure he can get the maximum success in that as well. So yeah.
Froilan Diaz: And you know, I I appreciated you writing the aspects of how your Hindu upbringing connected with what you're going to write about in this book or or what you did write about in this book. But you opened the book with the prayer to Ganesh, which I felt was really auspicious. Ganesh opens doorways and opens the pathway towards enlightenment. So that was really cool.
Siddharth: Yeah, this is something new. I've been so I'm a I'm a scientist in the Western world. So in on some level I've been kind of I guess closeted about my r my religion on some level, right? but only recently have I started to open up more about it and be much more comfortable about all all these different parts of me. Which is why I think that the the book comes at the right time for for me per on a personal level, I think. Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. Yeah, I think particularly in the US, like discussing religion, it's more like your personal thing. So it is hard to connect with other people just talking about it. You gotta kind of like be very delicate when you weave your way into it. so then moving into the main topic of your book, which is magic. How did you get into Western magic?
Siddharth: Yeah, so my lead to the Western magic was through Tarot. growing up I didn't know anything about Tarot. I mean we we did a lot of astrology, a lot of Vedic astrology at home. I didn't learn it, but a lot of ev you know functions and and celebrations and everything was timed with astrological astrological timing. And so I kinda continue to read astrological columns and then after coming here, I s I got my first taste of the tarot in back in 2000 is when I came and and I've been doing reading tarot ever since. So on some level I was really I started getting we into that and that was the impetus behind my first book, The Neuroscience of Tarot. and And also my sister and I, we both kind of talk about or or kind of do sm small like herb herbalistic magic. We kind of say, Okay, we want this to happen and so we kind of invoke certain spells and you know, cast out those intentions using spells for manifestation. So I've been pass practicing that along the way. A few books that have influenced me a lot. well there was one and all these I just picked up randomly. There was one called Freeing the Genie Within by Deborah Lynn Katz, which I just picked up in a used bookstore and it really talks about how to set intentions and and manifest stuff. a lot of it seemed to also resonate with this practice of Kriya Yoga, which is a pr an Indian practice. so it it it seemed to kind of have a a parlance with what they were suggesting there as well. so that was one of one book that really I started using a lot. especially I used to live in New York and I was always anxious because especially taking the subway with all this people around me. And so I really started this grounding practice, which was just like a quick three minute grounding practice, which I could just get into without too much. And and that that's when I really started working on my own self with magic, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: That's how long would you say that was when you finally started researching Western magic?
Siddharth: So probably two thousand six is when I started really, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Okay, nice. Yeah. and so as you start the book, I'm I I noticed you gave a a sort of caution to your readers. and I was curious about how maybe if some of that has to do with your work in neuroscience, but you cautioned the reader that I noticed that there was like a line where you were talking about magical thinking. And in magical thinking,
Siddharth: Mm mm mm.
Froilan Diaz: there was there was sort of like this fine line where I'm like, this Almost could be psychosis. And then the next sentence you bring that up, that you're like, you know, some people who've been diagnosed with schizophrenia or seizures, they they might have some of these symptoms. And so you caution
Siddharth: Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: the reader, don't seek out a sort of neurosis to identify with in this book. You you basically caution them away, like just Think of this book as a way of just noticing patterns, but don't think of it as like a a neurosis or a condition. I was curious if there was things that you saw either in our culture or in your work that that made you give that disclaimer up front.
Siddharth: Yeah, the problem is so I there's evidence of magical thinking in all of us, especially as kids. And then we as we are growing growing and we get inculcated into society, we lose a lot of it because because that's how you respond to society and you know, people will say you're crazy and so on. So you kinda have to use your logical brain to kinda say, Okay, these things work when I talk to people and these things don't or I can I can lead my life in a in a in a social setting using these paradigms. You think about it that way. And I think on on some level because of that the a lot of initial literature at le at least about magical thinking and has been done on people who going through psychotic episodes or who are having epileptic seizures and so on. So there is no initial move to investigate magical thinking in a regular person, you know, who is not going through a crisis on of some level. or they kind of venture in on it when they are exploring a different kind of question. So So if you look at the literature and the references in the book, a lot of it might have to do with we were looking at a schizophrenia patient and we looked at this. So I don't want people to then kind of draw the dots and say, I'm thinking this way, and then so I must be having this kind of a syndrome.
Froilan Diaz: just real quick, like we'll take one step back. So could you define magical thinking, how you how you see it, and then we can start to connect it to to that part.
Siddharth: Yeah, magical thinking, at least it's defined as when you have two different things that have visibly no connection to each other and then you you form that that leap saying, I did this and this happened. So, you know, I I dropped the the the bag of ice and a bus crashed. You know, you're kind of like forming these leaps of conclusion. with have no logical movement between those two incidents. So they say that it might have some evolutionary benefit because if you say if you saw a bush with with some with a red bird on it and you're saying, okay, I wanna avoid that bush, on some level it might have been better for you to avoid it rather than go and get killed. So even though there might not have been a a an actual threat in that particular location, it might have been better for you to just avoid it because in the long run, avoidant or or kind of having that kind of behavior is better for you in terms of survival. And so we have those inherent circuits for making those those those leaps. And and and so we we have it in built. But the question is how are we using it and how How much of it is kinda getting suppressed over time as we are having to live in society is kind of the question. Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: as you explained that, my mind quickly went to like, you know, taking these two random events, connecting them. I was like, okay, so what if just a car slowed down because they're looking for an address, but I see them slow down and all of a sudden I'm like, they're trying to kill me. So to me,
Siddharth: Mm-mm.
Froilan Diaz: I was like, you know, that's where I was thinking automatically, like, that could be a sign of just some sort of like paranoia or or something psychological. And then next you brought up You know, I think you said like obsessive compulsive disorder, even these different ways. do you notice in let's say the the magic community that that might be something that at least identifying with conditions that people are prone to do? Or I'm just trying to understand like what made you think about including that as like a warning to your reader.
Siddharth: I I included that as a warning, not because I see it in people I I have I've been involved with the magical community for a for a little bit now. Not because I s I die I'm diagnosing people as I'm walking around, but because I feel like especially if they start going down the literature, in the scientific literature, they are not going to find too many articles or papers which are talking about magical thinking in everyday life. Scientists are only investigating it. in people who are having episodes or or coming in for some clinical condition. So I think only now, very recently, because of the investigation into meditation and and those kinds of practices are people beginning to ask those questions, you know, what is magical thinking in just regular regular life? So you're not gonna find too much literature out there where w where you're gonna just see a regular lay person just just talking about their magical practice. Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: And have you noticed that for the level of of magic as you get into things like ritual and operations, do you notice a connection to a level of training and focus? Like I automatically think of, you know, especially coming from a Hindu background, I think of yogic practices, breathing exercises, visualization and focus, and you know, As you're training, like in India, if you were training as a yogi, you know, you would be told that at some point you're going to encounter Siddhis, which are you know powers and and things that manifestations that happen. so connecting that to Western magic, do you think these things really are just if you believe it'll happen? Or do you believe that no, it's actually through this this? work and repetition and training and getting better and better. So it you know, I think people like the idea of it just being like, it's pure will or is it actually work and discipline?
Siddharth: So it's a little bit of both. I think the so the the reason why the yogic practices exist is because they're saying yoga is the first step for self realization in the sense that first you have to control the body because if you can't sit in a place for ten minutes, then you can't really control the mind. So you first control the body, then you then practice on controlling the mind and focusing and mindfulness and all those kinds of practices. And then once you have those those aspects under balance, is then when you start thinking about moving to the next plane or transcending and those kinds of questions. But one thing is in a lot of these practices your mind is constantly moving around and what your you need to tell your brain. what is what are you really interested in and what is exciting for it and one way to do that is that ritual behavior where you are very focused on this one one thing and you repeat it over and over again. The act of repetition and the act of that focused focused nature of your ritual allows the brain to think that that particular event or or ceremony or whatever you're doing is is of great importance. And a lot of the repetition also involves movement or hand gestures or some kind of physicality associated with it. And that again helps to train parts of your brain to kind of gen then say, okay, I'm doing this and I'm repeating it over and over again and that means that there must be some added value to this. So essentially a lot of the ritual is trying to on one level is trying to train your brain to saying, okay, what I'm doing is important and and and over time you also don't have to think too much about it. You kind of are getting into that mode of, okay, now it's a ritual mode. I'm I'm cleaning this surface and I'm going to set my pen and paper here and I'm gonna start writing. So your brain on automatically goes into that writing mode of some kind. So that is the entrainment bit is kind of one one one thing. The other thing the ritual does is it removes certain kinds of uncertainties from your brain where if you we we are constantly thinking about a bunch of different things. so your brain is almost jumping around from, okay, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, I'm doing that. But in a ritual mode, you're kind of set up, you give a proscripted set of instructions that you have to follow. So again, on some level, that prescription allows the uncertainty in that, say, 10 minutes or whatever you're doing to kind of come down to okay, I'm not, I'm I really know what I'm doing right now. And that allows other parts of your brain to kind of flow into into states of I want to think about problem solving, or I want to be creative, or I want to you know, transcend. So you you're allowing the certain parts of your brain to co-opt into other things. So that is one part. I think that's really important. The other part that's important is the belief, right? So if you just do the ritual but you don't infuse that with a certain sense of belief, whether in yourself or in an external power, then you're your brain is not going to move to the next step of trying to think about, okay, I did all of this, but is this actually gonna work out? Or how am I going to move to the next step? So the belief portion is also really important in the so the the will is the what you talked about, on some level the will is important, along with the with the ritual is what I would like to say. Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. in the book one one section you were speaking about just commenting that if you if you told somebody to perform something particular, like let's say you instructed them to cook their meal, but you told them to do it with you know, sacredness, intention, and giving them all these all these prescriptions, but the freedom to choose that might all of a sudden be intimidating and hard for somebody because they're like, How do I do? Whereas if you
Siddharth: Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: give them a step by step list of instructions that perhaps they don't even understand the reason for everything that they're doing, but you just hand that to them and then they repeat it, they repeat it over time. That you've created a tradition because they're gonna pass that on. So I actually kind of laughed at that part. It's very true, but it it shows how ritual is now born. You just basically like have that understanding
Siddharth: Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: about human nature and then just here, just take this, don't ask questions. Here you go.
Siddharth: Yeah, it happens in scientific settings too, you know. They they if you look at a methods paper of a of a of a science experiment, sometimes it makes no sense. Yeah, like they're like, you know, do this thing seventeen times. I'm like, why? I mean, what and then but then you do it because you're like, Okay, they d did it seventeen times that the thing worked for them, so I'm just gonna do it.
Froilan Diaz: Right. Yeah. Right.
Siddharth: and then that gets that then gets repeated. you know, across labs and and trade and it becomes a thing that, you know, th for this thing to work out, you need to do it seventeen times. Yeah. So it
Froilan Diaz: Right.
Siddharth: doesn't have to be in a magical setting. It you know, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah, exactly. getting back to the idea of ritual, you know I everyone's different and and so even like back to the things you were saying about ritual and what that does, I've I've had often times in my life where I'm I'm deeply attracted to ritual, you know, I was Catholic for a time and and going to a traditional Latin mass was just edifying to me and you know all on the eastern side, you know, all the intricacies and the beauty of movement in in a puja. Like if you if you attend like a puja service and you have you know the pooj the pujabi performing the mass or performing the puja then it it it's if they know what they're doing it's very beautiful and and flowy. But then, you know, you have others that that a ritual doesn't necessarily do anything for them. I don't know if that's like a level of of understanding or development, but you know, you have others that would just sit and meditate. And I sort of saw that parallel like in the eastern world of of puja versus like meditation and you know, and ascending, so to speak. We're with magic with the with the Western world. So you have, you know, ceremonial magicians, you have witchcraft, chaos magicians. So you have like a sort of a different level of engagement with this subject of of magic. you know, did you have any like thoughts over whether that's sort of just A level of development or if it's just like there's actually as everyone's arguing which one's better, is it really just that all of these are actually, just stages of the same thing?
Siddharth: So rituals in organized religion have an issue, right? Because you
Froilan Diaz: Mm-hmm.
Siddharth: usually have an authority figure who is saying, you know, I know how to do this the best, and you know, you all need to do that. So I I have an issue with that too, because I I'm queer and I grew up Hindu, so there was like a lot of that kind of dynamism of of certain things came about
Froilan Diaz: Yeah, sure.
Siddharth: of conflict. And I also when I go to Hin Hindu temples and I can feel the faith in people for these rituals, but I don't feel it. I don't feel that level of commitment to to some like sitting for hours or waiting in line for hours while like you know, waiting to go see the God. I'm like, I just I just can't do it. And but what what's b what's interesting is every culture across centuries has had rituals, whether they be big or small. And a lot of rituals cover like really important moments like births and deaths and you know and weddings and those kinds of ceremonies are abound with rituals across cultures.
Froilan Diaz: Absolutely.
Siddharth: So and then it's not just human. Like crows have rituals and elephants have rituals, dolphins have rituals. So there's some animalistic tendency for us to kind of go with rituals. And so that was something I was really curious about, like why does this exist? I mean there's no reason why it should exist. And then it k keeps c kept coming down to one thing was the uncertainty, trying to bring some certainty into your life. And the other thing was the socialness of it, as you mentioned, about how when you when you go into a puja with a lot of people, then you you kind of felt that feel a sense of bonding with the people around you when you experience a ritual together.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: And and that they found that was fascinating to me. It's like there they did a there was an anthropology study on coal walkers and how when they were walking the coal, not only would they experience this euphoric high, but the people who've come to support them and the people who come to watch them also experience that that sense of
Froilan Diaz: becomes like a field that they're sitting in. Yeah.
Siddharth: And they measured this physiologically using like they measured the levels of hormones in the people around and also in the people who who were walking the coals. And then they also did a photographic study and they s they showed that the face showed that the person was actually experiencing pain, but the brain like shut it down. Like they the brain's brain told them you're not experiencing pain, even
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: though that they were. patterns of pain, what you would show when you are experiencing pain. And and there was also that other element of folks who were not invited were out of the loop and they were not part of the ritual. They did not experience that that that euphoric sense. So the social bonding that comes from rituals is is is also definitely a part of it. I I think that you don't have to go to a a huge a huge like a a location or an organized way of ritual, but having your own practice, you know, just simple practices of say eating with intention or or clearing your space or clearing your your location. Like just a few simple steps before you take any kinds of action. It's just gonna bring a l certain level of focus to your to your work at that particular moment. And I think that that's all it it really needs. when I'm talking about ritual it doesn't have to be much more elaborate than that.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. I know tarot is is like a simple ritual people just spend some time with and then that's sort of snowballs into into more and more. And like I know yourself, you said you got into it through tarot, but how did you how did you come across tarot and how did you actually get familiar with it?
Siddharth: Yeah, it does again my sister, so she and I didn't never lived in the same city, but she sent me a bunch of tarot cards and we used to watch the Gilmore girls together and do and do
Froilan Diaz: I love Gilmore Girls. my god.
Siddharth: and then we used to do readings for each other on the phone.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: And and we still do that now after like twenty five years or something. But but that's how I got into it. I still don't do reversals. I I just take Take it as it is. I've been going to a lot of tarot conferences, so I've been layering it more with timing and astrology and those kinds of practices. but what I've realized is even tarot, if I just do a spread, I usually forget about it. but if I kind of do another ste I I I went through a practice starting in 2018 where I pulled a card every day. And then I would doodle the first thing that would come to my mind about that card.
Froilan Diaz: that's great.
Siddharth: and then I would say, Okay, today I'm gonna lead my li my my day with this as my intention. And then so and then if I would come back later and said, Okay, what happened today? Then I would see, okay, I actually had more of a focus about it. So the minute that I added a certain component to it, it just became much more attractive. Or my brain said, Okay, I need to focus on this little particular thing today. And so it allowed me to make it more valuable for me to to to lead my life in a certain way.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. And because you're a neuroscientist, I I'm fascinated with what you might say, like learning the tarot, there's different ways people approach it and that's why I I like to ask when people are into it. Some people tell me that they they actually don't care necessarily what what the official definition of this card is.
Siddharth: The book says.
Froilan Diaz: It's like somehow they had an intuition and that that provided meaning for them and so they they sort of went in that way. Other people are like, no, I mean I I'm almost not looking at the image. I just want to know what's the definition of that card. Like, am I gonna die? Is my boyfriend gonna break up with me or something?
Siddharth: Ha ha.
Froilan Diaz: But you know, is is Is there like psychological implications that perhaps have even been studied on on these kinds of approaches, like to sort of nail down how different minds work?
Siddharth: So I talk a lot I mean, there are two different things, right? So one is psychic abilities and the other is intuition. I don't think it's intuition is psychic abilities. I think intuition is using the unconscious processing of your brain in order to come at a particular conclusion or choice. So the idea is that you perceive so much data from around you in the world, but if you are aware of everything, you'll ki you won't be able to move forward. you need to let some of it filter back in your unconscious brain and let that then spit out, okay, this is what this means.
Froilan Diaz: Yes.
Siddharth: And so intuition is what the scientists say is your brain making choices or leaps blindfolded without knowing all the information. and I think that's what's behind a lot of tarot where you're using the images and the patterns that you're seeing, maybe the tone of voice or your particular emotional con state of mind. You're kind of integrating all of that together in order for you to make a particular leap of faith, judge judgment at that particular time. there there is the and that that's been well studied, especially in not in tarot readers, but in in mainly in surgeons and anesthesiologists and and athletes, because a lot of them make those split second decisions which don't Which should not require logical thinking. Because if you start going through the logical thinking, it takes about fifteen to twenty seconds more, which means someone would die. So
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: essentially they found that the more an expert a surgeon is, they don't have to depend on the Grace Anatomy textbook. They they don't have to depend upon, hey, I learned that if I cut here, then this is gonna happen. They don't have to go through that logical progression. But they've done enough surgeries and they've seen enough things. That they're able to say, okay, this is what my intuition is saying, is where the problem is, and that's how that's what I'm going to fix at this moment. and I think on some level that's that's the kind of integration that's going on in a in a tarot reading where we are basing our ideas on a whole bunch of things. The problem arises is because intuition is not always correct. A lot of
Froilan Diaz: Right.
Siddharth: times you you you You develop your intuition over time with experience, which means that your intuition is not hundred percent correct. So you need to look back and reflect on your interpretations and try and understand. Hey, not I'm I'm not saying do it all the time, but definitely once in a while catch yourself or do a reading for yourself and say, you know, did I get it right? And what patterns was I noticing? Was I being biased? Was I in an emotionally turbulent pre look per state that made me lead me down this particular interpretation. So that next time you'll be much better at that intuitive decision making. Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah, practicing that discernment. Would you say that people can develop either one of those techniques? Like, can people improve their intuition and and I know like there's people who teach psychic ability, like can somebody develop it and improve on it?
Siddharth: Intuition definitely. I think it's just a question of practice in the sense of you you just become more and more of an expert, do more readings for people if you're doing a tarot divination. and then and then but then every once in a while break it down to trying to see, okay, I looked at these images, were there certain patterns that I always go to? Can I train myself to look for new patterns? and then also record like Did I have a fight with someone before I did this reading? Did I, you know, you know, what was your mental state at that particular point? And then so that way when you look back, you'll know all the different things that you use to arrive at that particular conclusion. And so that it'll be easier for you to become to notice, hey, I'm actually going down this track of of interpreting it this way, but maybe there's something else I'm not noticing, is something that that you may be able to catch yourself. psychic abilities, Yes, in the sense that so these are not been as well studied. There's only now recently there's been more and it suddenly exploded. A lot of people are now talking about this openly and wanting to study it. There is a center for noetic sciences, it's called Ions,
Froilan Diaz: Yes.
Siddharth: Institute of Noetic Sciences, it's somewhere in the Bay Area. the actually Dean Radin, the the main head of the institute, wrote a really good book called Real Magic. And I met one of his researchers, Elane Wabe. she's also written a lot of books and they do empirical studies on psychic abilities and gut gut sensing, you know, and those kinds of things.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: so I think that's that's happening. how can you Huh? I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Remote viewing, right? Remote viewing too. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Siddharth: And how can you improve yourself? in that I think a couple of things. so you have a sense you have parts of your brain which is your sense of self. It's called your default mode network. And it helps you project yourself to the past and also to the future. The idea being that it's your sense of self and so you need to know to to any kind of goal setting, you know, I'm gonna be do this next year or I'm going to do this like five years, or for all those purposes, you have this default mode network to help you project yourself. And for that it's kind of taking in information about what happened in the past. So if I did this I felt happy. I remember that. Or if I did this I felt unhappy. So you're kind of using your past experiences to then create the screenplay of your future selves. So You can try and do those visualization exercises yourself to try and see if what resonates with you and where do where do you wanna be? And then you kind of then try to plot the line. Okay, I'm I'm in point A. I wanna reach point B. What are the different steps I need to take to to then move forward? So then that way you can then then be able to give it more voice in terms of set a certain intention and then write a you know, mantra around it and then make it part of your regular practice to say, Okay, I I'm gonna get to that space. So so yeah, that th those are exercises that's there in the book. So you can actually I think get better at those kinds of abilities.
Froilan Diaz: And speaking of the default mode network, you just explained that, but in a magical operation, what are the different elements of of the brain that are being engaged through that process?
Siddharth: So you're using so one one aspect is the default mode network. The more personal you can make any kind of practice that you have, it's gonna help it much more. So instead of saying, this is going to bring happiness, if you say this is gonna make me happy. So the the minute you you kinda put yourself into this into the the thing, it's gonna the brain is gonna say, Huh, okay, there's something about me that I I need to kind of focus, think about is is something to To so the default moon network is something that's always used. The other place that's important is your if you kind of slip your hand right underneath your skull right there and you go in, that's your ventromedial prefrontal cortex. And that one is your value addition. So the idea is if if I say I want a car, and then the next minute you say I want, you know. To bake cookies and then the next minute you say I want to so basically you're then moving through a whole range of wishes and your brain is saying, These have no value. I'm just like jumping through things. But if you the value addition happens in that particular area over there where your if you say, I want this and want to take these actions to to reach that, then the your your brain is saying, Okay, there's some value to this particular thought, so I'm gonna concentrate on it and move. move forward with it. And that also connects to your body, in the sense if you start saying, How will I feel when I achieve this particular goal or intention? And your heart you're you're saying, you know, I want to feel excited. And if you feel like that in your heart and your heart beats faster, that is then conveyed and those neurons start like firing faster because there's that communication between them. So that increases the value, amplifies basically the value of it. the one other part I think that's really important is the one right bit if you go up your tips of your ears right above there, that's your temporarietal junction. And that one is what gives agency to the universe or the supernatural and so on. so this is the same part of the brain that you use for So now I'm talking to you and I know that you are a thinking person with a agency. You have your own thoughts and you're forming your own thing. So that's the part of the brain that allows me to attribute agency. It's called theory of mind. And we're using the same part to attribute agency to something outside of us. so we're using that a lot also in magical practice.
Froilan Diaz: speaking of the TPJ, so you brought up the temporopariietal junction. Yeah.
Siddharth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: So you brought up a story of an experiment where they put on a helmet on an individual called the God helmet and they were
Siddharth: Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: giving some weak waves into that region of the brain. what was that experiment? 'Cause you briefly mentioned it, but I found it really fascinating.
Siddharth: So this was a I actually a a scientist who was working on I d I I think it was schizophrenia patients, but he found that if you activated this area, it caused people to exp have mystical experiences. So then he created an actual helmet called the god's helmet. And I think it at first for some time it is even called Shiva's helmet, if I'm not wrong.
Froilan Diaz: okay.
Siddharth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and then he would ask regular people to come and experience. He started a company which would make this helmet and he would ask regular people to wear it and experience this fa this feeling of oneness with the universe because you're now attributing agency to that. So the so that was really fascinating to me in the sense that you already have the circuits. for these experiences is just being maxed over or it's not being co opted in in a regular fashion. So then there must be ways for us to then access them and and use them for our own purposes.
Froilan Diaz: Would naturalists take that evidence as like this explains religion entirely or religious inclination entirely? right there is a section of the brain. If you stimulate that with some electrical current, boom, you're already in your you know, your mystical they would say psychosis. But on the other hand, somebody
Siddharth: Yeah, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: might be like, Well, why why do I have that? that's served some sort of purpose, even evolutionarily, that has served some purpose. and and has allowed me to think about higher things or other things than myself. but do naturalists kind of use that as like there it is,
Siddharth: Definitely, right? And but but what you also said is is true is look why do we have it is you know you you have to remember that we we have houses and and and and food on our table and all that only recently for for most of our most of our civilization or whatever human humanity, we've been dependent on the elements and, you know, things outside of us. And we have to, you know, give agency and we have to depend on them to to work with us to survive, right? So
Froilan Diaz: Yes.
Siddharth: that's really important.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. and we're getting late into the interview, but I did want to touch on another subject as you brought it up in the beginning. you said that you primarily work with animals. And I I'm I'm doing some research myself on sort of the mind's interaction during manifestation and magic. but more so how has this been given to us in the past by you know, new thought thinkers and and whatnot. And I was kind of curious how animals come into play. Like I I feel like in sort of cultural discussion, you know, there's arguments about the level of of thinking in animals. And and some group might just want to be like, there's nothing going on there other than just natural impulses. And where it seems like we're scratching at a surface of like, no, there's actually deeper cognition than that. where has your research brought you on that when it comes to the animal kingdom?
Siddharth: so I I mean I think that animals have consciousness. and then also if you look at different sorry. if
Froilan Diaz: No worries.
Siddharth: you look at different cultures, like the Jainist culture culture, for example, they even believe like inanimate objects have consciousness. if I touch a a piece of wood, the wood touches me back. So it's it they have
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. Mm.
Siddharth: a range of senses and which starts with touch and then it moves on and it keeps adding different senses a as the progression happens. So The the question of what is consciousness comes in, and that's still being debated, right? Philosophers are debating it, scientists are debating it, and one thing that comes is self-awareness, is is is something that people talk about. but they're now finding that you know elephants are self-aware, you know, they can like feel they know if there's something on them and they look at a mirror, they're able to touch themselves instead of the mirror. They they they have that self-awareness. they're now finding that whales and dolphins are able to recognize. individuals as opposed to like groups. and crows as well are also they they are they also have these very elaborate rituals and they are able to recognize each other. And that's the other thing is the recognition of individuals as opposed to a I'm just another bird, you know, kind of thing is something that
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: people are recognizing more and more. And and then even if you go to the invertebrates, like octopus or something, has a a level of consciousness that even scientists have said only after you understand the human brain you'll understand the octopus brain, you know. So so there is, yes, there is a I I tr I told I I truly believe that it's just we just don't have the tools maybe to ask the right questions of these animals to understand
Froilan Diaz: Mm-hmm.
Siddharth: how they are experiencing the world.
Froilan Diaz: Would you say that the levels are different? Like if you take like let's say humans, let's take particular animals, dogs, cats, and then take your your apple tree outside your house, you know, it i do you believe that the level of consciousness kind of comes down to what might be the same thing? Or do you believe that no it there's there's different levels of Cognition and reception for for that kind of a mind.
Siddharth: That's a good question. It's all I guess the way I would approach it is what has that what has that mind been evolved to do and what are the qu what are the tasks that it needs to accomplish when it's when it's while it's living. Right?
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: So maybe it doesn't need to think about the li you know, the facts of life.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: but then on the same time when I'm I'm I I look I look a lot at snails and and and insects brains is is w examine them a lot and I've been thinking a lot about when you're when you're looking at the cockroach nerve and you are giving it like this stimulus There is this very mindful intensity about just this one thought that's just going through it. There's a very presence almost like in the moment kind of action and nothing else.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Siddharth: And almost in this evolved state of what pe we ask people to be at. Like, you know, you need
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: to be at in you know, live in the moment and just like think about what's going on at this point as opposed to everything else.
Froilan Diaz: Right. Right.
Siddharth: And you can kind of narrow it down to that level on when you're like looking at a cockroach brain on on and I'm like always in wonderment about how how mindful this creature is. And
Froilan Diaz: Mm. Yeah.
Siddharth: yeah, so that's what I've been wondering about. Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Well, and not to take it to too controversial a topic, but like I think about, you know, like the vegetarian or vegan argument of well, I want to eliminate suffering, so I'm not going to eat these animals because from my experience they're feeling the pain. but then I've I've sort of thought like if you believe that there's consciousness in mind and everything, then You know, as you're chopping up that head of lettuce and just shredding it apart, you know, is it is the is the lettuce as aware of what you're doing to it than the animal that will, you know, it's gonna lose its consciousness shortly once it's dead, but who knows how much longer a head of lettuce or your orange or apple is is going on. So I g I guess I started to question and I'm curious of your opinion on on something like that.
Siddharth: Well they say the they say the smell of moored grass is the grass sending alarm signals, right? Like that's what they said it the that thing.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. Right.
Siddharth: and yeah, they've seen that trees when they're being cut send alarm signals down through the mycelium. They're you know, those the other trees are kinda being warned. So those kinds of communication exist across i in in like plants as well.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: Yeah. I like but then if you take a piece of l like the lettuce you've already removed it. So I don't know how much of a living yeah
Froilan Diaz: It may just be like no more mind, like it may just be dead. But, you know, to me I just feel like, well, it's the offspring and there's, you know, put like in a fruit, there's still seeds in there. it's like
Siddharth: Yeah, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: there's still s life in that thing. But I guess I just wonder, if you really think about consciousness and mind and the connection and if that is present even in Vegetables and fruits and grains and and
Siddharth: Yeah, that's what a Ja a Jainist would say, I would say. th it's a really fa fascinating philosophy. Some of them don't even practice where they don't wear clothes because they feel like you're trapping the bacteria in the clothes and so, you know, you're like
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: ki in unintentionally killing them as a part
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: of your clothing and things like that. So
Froilan Diaz: Yeah, I mean you'd run out of options 'cause it's like, well then I guess I just can't eat. But I must limit my breathing too in case I'm inhaling particles. But I
Siddharth: ha ha.
Froilan Diaz: guess all that to say is I've wondered if if even a vegetarian has that moral stance or or if it's just way more even complicated than that. But
Siddharth: So I think that's that's somewhere where I I think we've lost some of this. maybe because of the organized religion bit, but I think giving thanks to food, whatever you're eating, whether it be a plant or an animal, I think that's part of that thing of thank you for growing and sustaining me or thank you for, you know, sacrificing your life for me, kind of having that level of gratitude for it, I think is is is I think it was there in a lot of cultures, but I think again on some level we've lost it, because we just want to throw everything out, right? So
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. Yeah. Right. I think that's the only reason why I ever I've never been hunting. it's just not something that I find appealing. But at the same time, conceptually, I feel like it's the fact that we don't hunt anymore for our food that has taken that away cle we take everything for granted. Whereas if you killed that thing and you
Siddharth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Froilan Diaz: were over its carcass and you now have to carve it for your own nourishment. Like yeah, you're you're gonna be quite aware of what you just did and and what it
Siddharth: Yeah, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: took for that to happen. So I you know, sometimes in that sense I feel like as you're going back to the land and trying to live naturally, all of a sudden you kind of realize like, man, this is life was just so much bigger to people as they actually had to do every single thing.
Siddharth: Mm mm. Yeah, I have a friend who's she has a farm set up in upstate New York and that's what she she grows her pigs and her her food and she names the creatures also, but then when she sacrifices them, she thanks them. And on some level I do that in my lab where I have animals and I have to cut into them. I don't name my snails, but I still
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: we do call them and scientists call them sacrifices and and we do thank them on some level for contributing towards this experiment. You know, and that's now a a lot of that has been lost in the industrial science complex where you don't know where your animals are coming from. You order
Froilan Diaz: Right.
Siddharth: order them online almost.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: and scientists have no no longer natural we used to be naturalists, but now we are more you know, scientists in a in a wheel. So I think there was a lot of sense to some of the older practices, definitely.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. Well, Siddharth, we come to the end of our interview, but I d I did wanna give you a minute to talk about some events that you got coming up and remind us again of the date of your book and I wanna get those out for ya.
Siddharth: Yeah, so I am Siddhartha Ramakrishnan. I I have a book talk coming up on October twenty third and the twenty with the Seattle Book Club. And then my book is coming out, the Neuroscience of Magic is coming out November eighth and from Lavellin Press. But you can pre-order it right now. my website is brainmystic.com, B-R-A-I-N Mystic dot com. And you can find me on Instagram at Sidbits, S I D D B I T S. Thank you.
Froilan Diaz: And we'll make sure to get that information in the show notes when we post this episode. But I wanna thank you for coming on to this interview. This was really fun, really fascinating. And thank you for the work too.
Siddharth: Thank you, and thank you for all the like I love the the tan like the questions and how it kinda weaved. It was a great conversation.
Froilan Diaz: Of course, all that stuff I I'm just deeply fascinated by, so this was a lot of fun to get to get a eat early peek at your book too. Thank you so much. Well,
Siddharth: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: we'll be talking soon and I wish you well on your book tour and the release as well. We'll talk soon.
Siddharth: Thank you. Bye.
Froilan Diaz: Thank you, Veiled Seekers, for watching the Veiled Path podcast. I really hope you enjoyed this episode in this wonderful talk with Dr. Siddharth Ramakrishnan. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe, hit the bell icon below. If you're one of our Spotify listeners, please rate the podcast five stars if you enjoyed the episode. Stay true out there and we will see you next time.
Siddharth: Well they say the they say the smell of moored grass is the grass sending alarm signals, right? Like that's what they said it the that thing.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. Right.
Siddharth: and yeah, they've seen that trees when they're being cut send alarm signals down through the mycelium. They're you know, those the other trees are kinda being warned. So those kinds of communication exist across i in in like plants as well.
Froilan Diaz: Hey Veiled Seekers, welcome back to the Veiled Path Podcast. I am Froilan, I am your host. Glad to have you back with me again. On this week's episode, we have a really awesome interview with the author of the upcoming work, The Neuroscience of Magic, Dr. Siddharth Ramakrishnan. But first, a quick background on Dr. Ramakrishnan's work. Dr. Siddharth Ramakrishan is a professor and the Jenny Karuthers Chair in Neuroscience at the University of Pudgett Sound. Dr. Ramakrishnan is a recipient of an NSF Career Award and a fellow of the UCLA Art Sci Center. With over 20 years of research and teaching experience, Dr. Ramakrishnan bridges cutting edge neuroscience with ancient mystical practices. His engaging talks and workshops reveal how rituals, symbols, and intuitive practice shape the brain, rewire beliefs, and unlock human potential. His books, The Neuroscience of Tarot, 2024, and the Neuroscience of Magic 2026 are with Llewellyn worldwide. You can find more of Dr. Ramakrishan at www dot brain mystic dot com. Without further ado, let's get to it, my interview with Dr. Siddhartha's Ramakrishna. Welcome to the Veil Path podcast. I am Froilan and I'm here with my guest today, Siddharth. Welcome, Siddharth. Good to have you on.
Siddharth: Thank you. Thank you so much for the invite. Thank you.
Froilan Diaz: Siddharth finished writing his new book, The Neuroscience of Magic, set to come out, I believe, in November.
Siddharth: Yes, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Awesome. Yeah. I got to have a sneak peek of this book. and I gotta say, this was a great book. It was really entertaining, and I learned a lot from it. So, congratulations on that.
Siddharth: Thank you.
Froilan Diaz: so first, I wanted a little bit about your background and get my audience familiar with where you're coming from spiritually and also your work. But as this book deals with neuroscience, please let us know your work involved therein.
Siddharth: Yeah, so I am a professor of neuroscience at a small liberal arts college in the Pacific Northwest and But I grew up in a Hindu household. I wouldn't say religious, but we had a lot of cultural traditions that involved a lot of spiritual magic and worship and rituals. And as a scientist, I've been wondering about how why we have this need for rituals, and that's kind of been in the back of my head as I was going along. And but also as growing up as Hindu, we never had the disconnect between spiritualism or religion and science. It was all interconnected. So never had that pangs of my god, am I like stepping out of my zone here?
Froilan Diaz: Right.
Siddharth: but I don't work with humans in my actual research practice. I work with animals and Also, I've been thinking a lot about animal consciousness and how different entities explore the world. So in that way I think this was a perfect confluence of trying to figure out where I came from, where my how I I treat animals and beings that I work with, and also the neuroscience research behind these things all coming together to become this perfect opportunity, write about it.
Froilan Diaz: So you said growing up Hindu, now I I was initiated by the Ramakrishna monks with Diksha, so so I have some background in, you know, Hindu spirituality, but I can attest also like there really isn't any threat to science, like science and eastern spirituality really do coincide together. But growing up in a just culturally Hindu family, what made you take Direction towards science.
Siddharth: Yeah, it's kinda funny you mentioned the Ramakrishna Math So I grew up like a five minute walk from the our local Ramakrishna Math.
Froilan Diaz: awesome.
Siddharth: and in fact every morning at four my grandma and I used to wake up and we used to walk to the Ramakrishna Math and sit there and meditate in that space.
Froilan Diaz: awesome.
Siddharth: and even now when I go back to Chennai I still like go to the the Math in the mornings. because that's one of the that's my place of peace actually. And yeah, so at home we had a an altar that we worshipped, which had all kinds of idols of different gods and goddesses. And my dad is a surgeon, but in the morning when he wakes up, his main first ritual is to bathe all the idols and and decorate them with sandalwood and and and kungumam and then after he prays is when he would do go down for his operations and all of that. So even now he's he's in his eighties, but his first thing when he wakes up in the morning is doing this. So we had that altar at home. But we were sent to this Anglo Vedic school which was the opposite of idol worship, where they actually said idol worship is not not correct. And it was more about inquiry and inquisit inquisitiveness and trying to find the the god within and it was also a branch of Hinduism but it where we in invoked the fire every Saturday and we would as students would sit around the fire and do ritual worship with the fire and make offerings to the fire and and in a way there were these two almost Different forms of Hinduism that were being dealt with. One was very idol-based, and the other one was more self-inquiry based. And
Froilan Diaz: Sure.
Siddharth: so but nobody said, you know, don't do this or don't do that. Nobody said the other was was bad, but
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: and both of them kind of were there together. and even though my dad is a doctor, he would still like practice certain esoteric practices where on a particular day when a surgery was there, he would not do the surgery in this hours of what is called Yamaganda, which is like the death hour. not because he believed in it, but because he felt like if patients believed in it, then their faith would hinder their recovery. So so it was kind of weaved into how you led your daily practice.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah, he's lining up his practice with some sort of spiritual current, just saying like it's it's the big current, so you might as well adapt to it.
Siddharth: And also because I think he says as a doctor he can do so much, but the rest of the recovery is based on the patient's own faith and how much they believe that they can actually recover. So he wants to make sure he can get the maximum success in that as well. So yeah.
Froilan Diaz: And you know, I I appreciated you writing the aspects of how your Hindu upbringing connected with what you're going to write about in this book or or what you did write about in this book. But you opened the book with the prayer to Ganesh, which I felt was really auspicious. Ganesh opens doorways and opens the pathway towards enlightenment. So that was really cool.
Siddharth: Yeah, this is something new. I've been so I'm a I'm a scientist in the Western world. So in on some level I've been kind of I guess closeted about my r my religion on some level, right? but only recently have I started to open up more about it and be much more comfortable about all all these different parts of me. Which is why I think that the the book comes at the right time for for me per on a personal level, I think. Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. Yeah, I think particularly in the US, like discussing religion, it's more like your personal thing. So it is hard to connect with other people just talking about it. You gotta kind of like be very delicate when you weave your way into it. so then moving into the main topic of your book, which is magic. How did you get into Western magic?
Siddharth: Yeah, so my lead to the Western magic was through Tarot. growing up I didn't know anything about Tarot. I mean we we did a lot of astrology, a lot of Vedic astrology at home. I didn't learn it, but a lot of ev you know functions and and celebrations and everything was timed with astrological astrological timing. And so I kinda continue to read astrological columns and then after coming here, I s I got my first taste of the tarot in back in 2000 is when I came and and I've been doing reading tarot ever since. So on some level I was really I started getting we into that and that was the impetus behind my first book, The Neuroscience of Tarot. and And also my sister and I, we both kind of talk about or or kind of do sm small like herb herbalistic magic. We kind of say, Okay, we want this to happen and so we kind of invoke certain spells and you know, cast out those intentions using spells for manifestation. So I've been pass practicing that along the way. A few books that have influenced me a lot. well there was one and all these I just picked up randomly. There was one called Freeing the Genie Within by Deborah Lynn Katz, which I just picked up in a used bookstore and it really talks about how to set intentions and and manifest stuff. a lot of it seemed to also resonate with this practice of Kriya Yoga, which is a pr an Indian practice. so it it it seemed to kind of have a a parlance with what they were suggesting there as well. so that was one of one book that really I started using a lot. especially I used to live in New York and I was always anxious because especially taking the subway with all this people around me. And so I really started this grounding practice, which was just like a quick three minute grounding practice, which I could just get into without too much. And and that that's when I really started working on my own self with magic, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: That's how long would you say that was when you finally started researching Western magic?
Siddharth: So probably two thousand six is when I started really, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Okay, nice. Yeah. and so as you start the book, I'm I I noticed you gave a a sort of caution to your readers. and I was curious about how maybe if some of that has to do with your work in neuroscience, but you cautioned the reader that I noticed that there was like a line where you were talking about magical thinking. And in magical thinking,
Siddharth: Mm mm mm.
Froilan Diaz: there was there was sort of like this fine line where I'm like, this Almost could be psychosis. And then the next sentence you bring that up, that you're like, you know, some people who've been diagnosed with schizophrenia or seizures, they they might have some of these symptoms. And so you caution
Siddharth: Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: the reader, don't seek out a sort of neurosis to identify with in this book. You you basically caution them away, like just Think of this book as a way of just noticing patterns, but don't think of it as like a a neurosis or a condition. I was curious if there was things that you saw either in our culture or in your work that that made you give that disclaimer up front.
Siddharth: Yeah, the problem is so I there's evidence of magical thinking in all of us, especially as kids. And then we as we are growing growing and we get inculcated into society, we lose a lot of it because because that's how you respond to society and you know, people will say you're crazy and so on. So you kinda have to use your logical brain to kinda say, Okay, these things work when I talk to people and these things don't or I can I can lead my life in a in a in a social setting using these paradigms. You think about it that way. And I think on on some level because of that the a lot of initial literature at le at least about magical thinking and has been done on people who going through psychotic episodes or who are having epileptic seizures and so on. So there is no initial move to investigate magical thinking in a regular person, you know, who is not going through a crisis on of some level. or they kind of venture in on it when they are exploring a different kind of question. So So if you look at the literature and the references in the book, a lot of it might have to do with we were looking at a schizophrenia patient and we looked at this. So I don't want people to then kind of draw the dots and say, I'm thinking this way, and then so I must be having this kind of a syndrome.
Froilan Diaz: just real quick, like we'll take one step back. So could you define magical thinking, how you how you see it, and then we can start to connect it to to that part.
Siddharth: Yeah, magical thinking, at least it's defined as when you have two different things that have visibly no connection to each other and then you you form that that leap saying, I did this and this happened. So, you know, I I dropped the the the bag of ice and a bus crashed. You know, you're kind of like forming these leaps of conclusion. with have no logical movement between those two incidents. So they say that it might have some evolutionary benefit because if you say if you saw a bush with with some with a red bird on it and you're saying, okay, I wanna avoid that bush, on some level it might have been better for you to avoid it rather than go and get killed. So even though there might not have been a a an actual threat in that particular location, it might have been better for you to just avoid it because in the long run, avoidant or or kind of having that kind of behavior is better for you in terms of survival. And so we have those inherent circuits for making those those those leaps. And and and so we we have it in built. But the question is how are we using it and how How much of it is kinda getting suppressed over time as we are having to live in society is kind of the question. Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: as you explained that, my mind quickly went to like, you know, taking these two random events, connecting them. I was like, okay, so what if just a car slowed down because they're looking for an address, but I see them slow down and all of a sudden I'm like, they're trying to kill me. So to me,
Siddharth: Mm-mm.
Froilan Diaz: I was like, you know, that's where I was thinking automatically, like, that could be a sign of just some sort of like paranoia or or something psychological. And then next you brought up You know, I think you said like obsessive compulsive disorder, even these different ways. do you notice in let's say the the magic community that that might be something that at least identifying with conditions that people are prone to do? Or I'm just trying to understand like what made you think about including that as like a warning to your reader.
Siddharth: I I included that as a warning, not because I see it in people I I have I've been involved with the magical community for a for a little bit now. Not because I s I die I'm diagnosing people as I'm walking around, but because I feel like especially if they start going down the literature, in the scientific literature, they are not going to find too many articles or papers which are talking about magical thinking in everyday life. Scientists are only investigating it. in people who are having episodes or or coming in for some clinical condition. So I think only now, very recently, because of the investigation into meditation and and those kinds of practices are people beginning to ask those questions, you know, what is magical thinking in just regular regular life? So you're not gonna find too much literature out there where w where you're gonna just see a regular lay person just just talking about their magical practice. Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: And have you noticed that for the level of of magic as you get into things like ritual and operations, do you notice a connection to a level of training and focus? Like I automatically think of, you know, especially coming from a Hindu background, I think of yogic practices, breathing exercises, visualization and focus, and you know, As you're training, like in India, if you were training as a yogi, you know, you would be told that at some point you're going to encounter Siddhis, which are you know powers and and things that manifestations that happen. so connecting that to Western magic, do you think these things really are just if you believe it'll happen? Or do you believe that no, it's actually through this this? work and repetition and training and getting better and better. So it you know, I think people like the idea of it just being like, it's pure will or is it actually work and discipline?
Siddharth: So it's a little bit of both. I think the so the the reason why the yogic practices exist is because they're saying yoga is the first step for self realization in the sense that first you have to control the body because if you can't sit in a place for ten minutes, then you can't really control the mind. So you first control the body, then you then practice on controlling the mind and focusing and mindfulness and all those kinds of practices. And then once you have those those aspects under balance, is then when you start thinking about moving to the next plane or transcending and those kinds of questions. But one thing is in a lot of these practices your mind is constantly moving around and what your you need to tell your brain. what is what are you really interested in and what is exciting for it and one way to do that is that ritual behavior where you are very focused on this one one thing and you repeat it over and over again. The act of repetition and the act of that focused focused nature of your ritual allows the brain to think that that particular event or or ceremony or whatever you're doing is is of great importance. And a lot of the repetition also involves movement or hand gestures or some kind of physicality associated with it. And that again helps to train parts of your brain to kind of gen then say, okay, I'm doing this and I'm repeating it over and over again and that means that there must be some added value to this. So essentially a lot of the ritual is trying to on one level is trying to train your brain to saying, okay, what I'm doing is important and and and over time you also don't have to think too much about it. You kind of are getting into that mode of, okay, now it's a ritual mode. I'm I'm cleaning this surface and I'm going to set my pen and paper here and I'm gonna start writing. So your brain on automatically goes into that writing mode of some kind. So that is the entrainment bit is kind of one one one thing. The other thing the ritual does is it removes certain kinds of uncertainties from your brain where if you we we are constantly thinking about a bunch of different things. so your brain is almost jumping around from, okay, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, I'm doing that. But in a ritual mode, you're kind of set up, you give a proscripted set of instructions that you have to follow. So again, on some level, that prescription allows the uncertainty in that, say, 10 minutes or whatever you're doing to kind of come down to okay, I'm not, I'm I really know what I'm doing right now. And that allows other parts of your brain to kind of flow into into states of I want to think about problem solving, or I want to be creative, or I want to you know, transcend. So you you're allowing the certain parts of your brain to co-opt into other things. So that is one part. I think that's really important. The other part that's important is the belief, right? So if you just do the ritual but you don't infuse that with a certain sense of belief, whether in yourself or in an external power, then you're your brain is not going to move to the next step of trying to think about, okay, I did all of this, but is this actually gonna work out? Or how am I going to move to the next step? So the belief portion is also really important in the so the the will is the what you talked about, on some level the will is important, along with the with the ritual is what I would like to say. Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. in the book one one section you were speaking about just commenting that if you if you told somebody to perform something particular, like let's say you instructed them to cook their meal, but you told them to do it with you know, sacredness, intention, and giving them all these all these prescriptions, but the freedom to choose that might all of a sudden be intimidating and hard for somebody because they're like, How do I do? Whereas if you
Siddharth: Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: give them a step by step list of instructions that perhaps they don't even understand the reason for everything that they're doing, but you just hand that to them and then they repeat it, they repeat it over time. That you've created a tradition because they're gonna pass that on. So I actually kind of laughed at that part. It's very true, but it it shows how ritual is now born. You just basically like have that understanding
Siddharth: Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: about human nature and then just here, just take this, don't ask questions. Here you go.
Siddharth: Yeah, it happens in scientific settings too, you know. They they if you look at a methods paper of a of a of a science experiment, sometimes it makes no sense. Yeah, like they're like, you know, do this thing seventeen times. I'm like, why? I mean, what and then but then you do it because you're like, Okay, they d did it seventeen times that the thing worked for them, so I'm just gonna do it.
Froilan Diaz: Right. Yeah. Right.
Siddharth: and then that gets that then gets repeated. you know, across labs and and trade and it becomes a thing that, you know, th for this thing to work out, you need to do it seventeen times. Yeah. So it
Froilan Diaz: Right.
Siddharth: doesn't have to be in a magical setting. It you know, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah, exactly. getting back to the idea of ritual, you know I everyone's different and and so even like back to the things you were saying about ritual and what that does, I've I've had often times in my life where I'm I'm deeply attracted to ritual, you know, I was Catholic for a time and and going to a traditional Latin mass was just edifying to me and you know all on the eastern side, you know, all the intricacies and the beauty of movement in in a puja. Like if you if you attend like a puja service and you have you know the pooj the pujabi performing the mass or performing the puja then it it it's if they know what they're doing it's very beautiful and and flowy. But then, you know, you have others that that a ritual doesn't necessarily do anything for them. I don't know if that's like a level of of understanding or development, but you know, you have others that would just sit and meditate. And I sort of saw that parallel like in the eastern world of of puja versus like meditation and you know, and ascending, so to speak. We're with magic with the with the Western world. So you have, you know, ceremonial magicians, you have witchcraft, chaos magicians. So you have like a sort of a different level of engagement with this subject of of magic. you know, did you have any like thoughts over whether that's sort of just A level of development or if it's just like there's actually as everyone's arguing which one's better, is it really just that all of these are actually, just stages of the same thing?
Siddharth: So rituals in organized religion have an issue, right? Because you
Froilan Diaz: Mm-hmm.
Siddharth: usually have an authority figure who is saying, you know, I know how to do this the best, and you know, you all need to do that. So I I have an issue with that too, because I I'm queer and I grew up Hindu, so there was like a lot of that kind of dynamism of of certain things came about
Froilan Diaz: Yeah, sure.
Siddharth: of conflict. And I also when I go to Hin Hindu temples and I can feel the faith in people for these rituals, but I don't feel it. I don't feel that level of commitment to to some like sitting for hours or waiting in line for hours while like you know, waiting to go see the God. I'm like, I just I just can't do it. And but what what's b what's interesting is every culture across centuries has had rituals, whether they be big or small. And a lot of rituals cover like really important moments like births and deaths and you know and weddings and those kinds of ceremonies are abound with rituals across cultures.
Froilan Diaz: Absolutely.
Siddharth: So and then it's not just human. Like crows have rituals and elephants have rituals, dolphins have rituals. So there's some animalistic tendency for us to kind of go with rituals. And so that was something I was really curious about, like why does this exist? I mean there's no reason why it should exist. And then it k keeps c kept coming down to one thing was the uncertainty, trying to bring some certainty into your life. And the other thing was the socialness of it, as you mentioned, about how when you when you go into a puja with a lot of people, then you you kind of felt that feel a sense of bonding with the people around you when you experience a ritual together.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: And and that they found that was fascinating to me. It's like there they did a there was an anthropology study on coal walkers and how when they were walking the coal, not only would they experience this euphoric high, but the people who've come to support them and the people who come to watch them also experience that that sense of
Froilan Diaz: becomes like a field that they're sitting in. Yeah.
Siddharth: And they measured this physiologically using like they measured the levels of hormones in the people around and also in the people who who were walking the coals. And then they also did a photographic study and they s they showed that the face showed that the person was actually experiencing pain, but the brain like shut it down. Like they the brain's brain told them you're not experiencing pain, even
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: though that they were. patterns of pain, what you would show when you are experiencing pain. And and there was also that other element of folks who were not invited were out of the loop and they were not part of the ritual. They did not experience that that that euphoric sense. So the social bonding that comes from rituals is is is also definitely a part of it. I I think that you don't have to go to a a huge a huge like a a location or an organized way of ritual, but having your own practice, you know, just simple practices of say eating with intention or or clearing your space or clearing your your location. Like just a few simple steps before you take any kinds of action. It's just gonna bring a l certain level of focus to your to your work at that particular moment. And I think that that's all it it really needs. when I'm talking about ritual it doesn't have to be much more elaborate than that.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. I know tarot is is like a simple ritual people just spend some time with and then that's sort of snowballs into into more and more. And like I know yourself, you said you got into it through tarot, but how did you how did you come across tarot and how did you actually get familiar with it?
Siddharth: Yeah, it does again my sister, so she and I didn't never lived in the same city, but she sent me a bunch of tarot cards and we used to watch the Gilmore girls together and do and do
Froilan Diaz: I love Gilmore Girls. my god.
Siddharth: and then we used to do readings for each other on the phone.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: And and we still do that now after like twenty five years or something. But but that's how I got into it. I still don't do reversals. I I just take Take it as it is. I've been going to a lot of tarot conferences, so I've been layering it more with timing and astrology and those kinds of practices. but what I've realized is even tarot, if I just do a spread, I usually forget about it. but if I kind of do another ste I I I went through a practice starting in 2018 where I pulled a card every day. And then I would doodle the first thing that would come to my mind about that card.
Froilan Diaz: that's great.
Siddharth: and then I would say, Okay, today I'm gonna lead my li my my day with this as my intention. And then so and then if I would come back later and said, Okay, what happened today? Then I would see, okay, I actually had more of a focus about it. So the minute that I added a certain component to it, it just became much more attractive. Or my brain said, Okay, I need to focus on this little particular thing today. And so it allowed me to make it more valuable for me to to to lead my life in a certain way.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. And because you're a neuroscientist, I I'm fascinated with what you might say, like learning the tarot, there's different ways people approach it and that's why I I like to ask when people are into it. Some people tell me that they they actually don't care necessarily what what the official definition of this card is.
Siddharth: The book says.
Froilan Diaz: It's like somehow they had an intuition and that that provided meaning for them and so they they sort of went in that way. Other people are like, no, I mean I I'm almost not looking at the image. I just want to know what's the definition of that card. Like, am I gonna die? Is my boyfriend gonna break up with me or something?
Siddharth: Ha ha.
Froilan Diaz: But you know, is is Is there like psychological implications that perhaps have even been studied on on these kinds of approaches, like to sort of nail down how different minds work?
Siddharth: So I talk a lot I mean, there are two different things, right? So one is psychic abilities and the other is intuition. I don't think it's intuition is psychic abilities. I think intuition is using the unconscious processing of your brain in order to come at a particular conclusion or choice. So the idea is that you perceive so much data from around you in the world, but if you are aware of everything, you'll ki you won't be able to move forward. you need to let some of it filter back in your unconscious brain and let that then spit out, okay, this is what this means.
Froilan Diaz: Yes.
Siddharth: And so intuition is what the scientists say is your brain making choices or leaps blindfolded without knowing all the information. and I think that's what's behind a lot of tarot where you're using the images and the patterns that you're seeing, maybe the tone of voice or your particular emotional con state of mind. You're kind of integrating all of that together in order for you to make a particular leap of faith, judge judgment at that particular time. there there is the and that that's been well studied, especially in not in tarot readers, but in in mainly in surgeons and anesthesiologists and and athletes, because a lot of them make those split second decisions which don't Which should not require logical thinking. Because if you start going through the logical thinking, it takes about fifteen to twenty seconds more, which means someone would die. So
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: essentially they found that the more an expert a surgeon is, they don't have to depend on the Grace Anatomy textbook. They they don't have to depend upon, hey, I learned that if I cut here, then this is gonna happen. They don't have to go through that logical progression. But they've done enough surgeries and they've seen enough things. That they're able to say, okay, this is what my intuition is saying, is where the problem is, and that's how that's what I'm going to fix at this moment. and I think on some level that's that's the kind of integration that's going on in a in a tarot reading where we are basing our ideas on a whole bunch of things. The problem arises is because intuition is not always correct. A lot of
Froilan Diaz: Right.
Siddharth: times you you you You develop your intuition over time with experience, which means that your intuition is not hundred percent correct. So you need to look back and reflect on your interpretations and try and understand. Hey, not I'm I'm not saying do it all the time, but definitely once in a while catch yourself or do a reading for yourself and say, you know, did I get it right? And what patterns was I noticing? Was I being biased? Was I in an emotionally turbulent pre look per state that made me lead me down this particular interpretation. So that next time you'll be much better at that intuitive decision making. Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah, practicing that discernment. Would you say that people can develop either one of those techniques? Like, can people improve their intuition and and I know like there's people who teach psychic ability, like can somebody develop it and improve on it?
Siddharth: Intuition definitely. I think it's just a question of practice in the sense of you you just become more and more of an expert, do more readings for people if you're doing a tarot divination. and then and then but then every once in a while break it down to trying to see, okay, I looked at these images, were there certain patterns that I always go to? Can I train myself to look for new patterns? and then also record like Did I have a fight with someone before I did this reading? Did I, you know, you know, what was your mental state at that particular point? And then so that way when you look back, you'll know all the different things that you use to arrive at that particular conclusion. And so that it'll be easier for you to become to notice, hey, I'm actually going down this track of of interpreting it this way, but maybe there's something else I'm not noticing, is something that that you may be able to catch yourself. psychic abilities, Yes, in the sense that so these are not been as well studied. There's only now recently there's been more and it suddenly exploded. A lot of people are now talking about this openly and wanting to study it. There is a center for noetic sciences, it's called Ions,
Froilan Diaz: Yes.
Siddharth: Institute of Noetic Sciences, it's somewhere in the Bay Area. the actually Dean Radin, the the main head of the institute, wrote a really good book called Real Magic. And I met one of his researchers, Elane Wabe. she's also written a lot of books and they do empirical studies on psychic abilities and gut gut sensing, you know, and those kinds of things.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: so I think that's that's happening. how can you Huh? I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Remote viewing, right? Remote viewing too. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Siddharth: And how can you improve yourself? in that I think a couple of things. so you have a sense you have parts of your brain which is your sense of self. It's called your default mode network. And it helps you project yourself to the past and also to the future. The idea being that it's your sense of self and so you need to know to to any kind of goal setting, you know, I'm gonna be do this next year or I'm going to do this like five years, or for all those purposes, you have this default mode network to help you project yourself. And for that it's kind of taking in information about what happened in the past. So if I did this I felt happy. I remember that. Or if I did this I felt unhappy. So you're kind of using your past experiences to then create the screenplay of your future selves. So You can try and do those visualization exercises yourself to try and see if what resonates with you and where do where do you wanna be? And then you kind of then try to plot the line. Okay, I'm I'm in point A. I wanna reach point B. What are the different steps I need to take to to then move forward? So then that way you can then then be able to give it more voice in terms of set a certain intention and then write a you know, mantra around it and then make it part of your regular practice to say, Okay, I I'm gonna get to that space. So so yeah, that th those are exercises that's there in the book. So you can actually I think get better at those kinds of abilities.
Froilan Diaz: And speaking of the default mode network, you just explained that, but in a magical operation, what are the different elements of of the brain that are being engaged through that process?
Siddharth: So you're using so one one aspect is the default mode network. The more personal you can make any kind of practice that you have, it's gonna help it much more. So instead of saying, this is going to bring happiness, if you say this is gonna make me happy. So the the minute you you kinda put yourself into this into the the thing, it's gonna the brain is gonna say, Huh, okay, there's something about me that I I need to kind of focus, think about is is something to To so the default moon network is something that's always used. The other place that's important is your if you kind of slip your hand right underneath your skull right there and you go in, that's your ventromedial prefrontal cortex. And that one is your value addition. So the idea is if if I say I want a car, and then the next minute you say I want, you know. To bake cookies and then the next minute you say I want to so basically you're then moving through a whole range of wishes and your brain is saying, These have no value. I'm just like jumping through things. But if you the value addition happens in that particular area over there where your if you say, I want this and want to take these actions to to reach that, then the your your brain is saying, Okay, there's some value to this particular thought, so I'm gonna concentrate on it and move. move forward with it. And that also connects to your body, in the sense if you start saying, How will I feel when I achieve this particular goal or intention? And your heart you're you're saying, you know, I want to feel excited. And if you feel like that in your heart and your heart beats faster, that is then conveyed and those neurons start like firing faster because there's that communication between them. So that increases the value, amplifies basically the value of it. the one other part I think that's really important is the one right bit if you go up your tips of your ears right above there, that's your temporarietal junction. And that one is what gives agency to the universe or the supernatural and so on. so this is the same part of the brain that you use for So now I'm talking to you and I know that you are a thinking person with a agency. You have your own thoughts and you're forming your own thing. So that's the part of the brain that allows me to attribute agency. It's called theory of mind. And we're using the same part to attribute agency to something outside of us. so we're using that a lot also in magical practice.
Froilan Diaz: speaking of the TPJ, so you brought up the temporopariietal junction. Yeah.
Siddharth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: So you brought up a story of an experiment where they put on a helmet on an individual called the God helmet and they were
Siddharth: Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: giving some weak waves into that region of the brain. what was that experiment? 'Cause you briefly mentioned it, but I found it really fascinating.
Siddharth: So this was a I actually a a scientist who was working on I d I I think it was schizophrenia patients, but he found that if you activated this area, it caused people to exp have mystical experiences. So then he created an actual helmet called the god's helmet. And I think it at first for some time it is even called Shiva's helmet, if I'm not wrong.
Froilan Diaz: okay.
Siddharth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and then he would ask regular people to come and experience. He started a company which would make this helmet and he would ask regular people to wear it and experience this fa this feeling of oneness with the universe because you're now attributing agency to that. So the so that was really fascinating to me in the sense that you already have the circuits. for these experiences is just being maxed over or it's not being co opted in in a regular fashion. So then there must be ways for us to then access them and and use them for our own purposes.
Froilan Diaz: Would naturalists take that evidence as like this explains religion entirely or religious inclination entirely? right there is a section of the brain. If you stimulate that with some electrical current, boom, you're already in your you know, your mystical they would say psychosis. But on the other hand, somebody
Siddharth: Yeah, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: might be like, Well, why why do I have that? that's served some sort of purpose, even evolutionarily, that has served some purpose. and and has allowed me to think about higher things or other things than myself. but do naturalists kind of use that as like there it is,
Siddharth: Definitely, right? And but but what you also said is is true is look why do we have it is you know you you have to remember that we we have houses and and and and food on our table and all that only recently for for most of our most of our civilization or whatever human humanity, we've been dependent on the elements and, you know, things outside of us. And we have to, you know, give agency and we have to depend on them to to work with us to survive, right? So
Froilan Diaz: Yes.
Siddharth: that's really important.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. and we're getting late into the interview, but I did want to touch on another subject as you brought it up in the beginning. you said that you primarily work with animals. And I I'm I'm doing some research myself on sort of the mind's interaction during manifestation and magic. but more so how has this been given to us in the past by you know, new thought thinkers and and whatnot. And I was kind of curious how animals come into play. Like I I feel like in sort of cultural discussion, you know, there's arguments about the level of of thinking in animals. And and some group might just want to be like, there's nothing going on there other than just natural impulses. And where it seems like we're scratching at a surface of like, no, there's actually deeper cognition than that. where has your research brought you on that when it comes to the animal kingdom?
Siddharth: so I I mean I think that animals have consciousness. and then also if you look at different sorry. if
Froilan Diaz: No worries.
Siddharth: you look at different cultures, like the Jainist culture culture, for example, they even believe like inanimate objects have consciousness. if I touch a a piece of wood, the wood touches me back. So it's it they have
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. Mm.
Siddharth: a range of senses and which starts with touch and then it moves on and it keeps adding different senses a as the progression happens. So The the question of what is consciousness comes in, and that's still being debated, right? Philosophers are debating it, scientists are debating it, and one thing that comes is self-awareness, is is is something that people talk about. but they're now finding that you know elephants are self-aware, you know, they can like feel they know if there's something on them and they look at a mirror, they're able to touch themselves instead of the mirror. They they they have that self-awareness. they're now finding that whales and dolphins are able to recognize. individuals as opposed to like groups. and crows as well are also they they are they also have these very elaborate rituals and they are able to recognize each other. And that's the other thing is the recognition of individuals as opposed to a I'm just another bird, you know, kind of thing is something that
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: people are recognizing more and more. And and then even if you go to the invertebrates, like octopus or something, has a a level of consciousness that even scientists have said only after you understand the human brain you'll understand the octopus brain, you know. So so there is, yes, there is a I I tr I told I I truly believe that it's just we just don't have the tools maybe to ask the right questions of these animals to understand
Froilan Diaz: Mm-hmm.
Siddharth: how they are experiencing the world.
Froilan Diaz: Would you say that the levels are different? Like if you take like let's say humans, let's take particular animals, dogs, cats, and then take your your apple tree outside your house, you know, it i do you believe that the level of consciousness kind of comes down to what might be the same thing? Or do you believe that no it there's there's different levels of Cognition and reception for for that kind of a mind.
Siddharth: That's a good question. It's all I guess the way I would approach it is what has that what has that mind been evolved to do and what are the qu what are the tasks that it needs to accomplish when it's when it's while it's living. Right?
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: So maybe it doesn't need to think about the li you know, the facts of life.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: but then on the same time when I'm I'm I I look I look a lot at snails and and and insects brains is is w examine them a lot and I've been thinking a lot about when you're when you're looking at the cockroach nerve and you are giving it like this stimulus There is this very mindful intensity about just this one thought that's just going through it. There's a very presence almost like in the moment kind of action and nothing else.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Siddharth: And almost in this evolved state of what pe we ask people to be at. Like, you know, you need
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: to be at in you know, live in the moment and just like think about what's going on at this point as opposed to everything else.
Froilan Diaz: Right. Right.
Siddharth: And you can kind of narrow it down to that level on when you're like looking at a cockroach brain on on and I'm like always in wonderment about how how mindful this creature is. And
Froilan Diaz: Mm. Yeah.
Siddharth: yeah, so that's what I've been wondering about. Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: Well, and not to take it to too controversial a topic, but like I think about, you know, like the vegetarian or vegan argument of well, I want to eliminate suffering, so I'm not going to eat these animals because from my experience they're feeling the pain. but then I've I've sort of thought like if you believe that there's consciousness in mind and everything, then You know, as you're chopping up that head of lettuce and just shredding it apart, you know, is it is the is the lettuce as aware of what you're doing to it than the animal that will, you know, it's gonna lose its consciousness shortly once it's dead, but who knows how much longer a head of lettuce or your orange or apple is is going on. So I g I guess I started to question and I'm curious of your opinion on on something like that.
Siddharth: Well they say the they say the smell of moored grass is the grass sending alarm signals, right? Like that's what they said it the that thing.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. Right.
Siddharth: and yeah, they've seen that trees when they're being cut send alarm signals down through the mycelium. They're you know, those the other trees are kinda being warned. So those kinds of communication exist across i in in like plants as well.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: Yeah. I like but then if you take a piece of l like the lettuce you've already removed it. So I don't know how much of a living yeah
Froilan Diaz: It may just be like no more mind, like it may just be dead. But, you know, to me I just feel like, well, it's the offspring and there's, you know, put like in a fruit, there's still seeds in there. it's like
Siddharth: Yeah, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: there's still s life in that thing. But I guess I just wonder, if you really think about consciousness and mind and the connection and if that is present even in Vegetables and fruits and grains and and
Siddharth: Yeah, that's what a Ja a Jainist would say, I would say. th it's a really fa fascinating philosophy. Some of them don't even practice where they don't wear clothes because they feel like you're trapping the bacteria in the clothes and so, you know, you're like
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: ki in unintentionally killing them as a part
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: of your clothing and things like that. So
Froilan Diaz: Yeah, I mean you'd run out of options 'cause it's like, well then I guess I just can't eat. But I must limit my breathing too in case I'm inhaling particles. But I
Siddharth: ha ha.
Froilan Diaz: guess all that to say is I've wondered if if even a vegetarian has that moral stance or or if it's just way more even complicated than that. But
Siddharth: So I think that's that's somewhere where I I think we've lost some of this. maybe because of the organized religion bit, but I think giving thanks to food, whatever you're eating, whether it be a plant or an animal, I think that's part of that thing of thank you for growing and sustaining me or thank you for, you know, sacrificing your life for me, kind of having that level of gratitude for it, I think is is is I think it was there in a lot of cultures, but I think again on some level we've lost it, because we just want to throw everything out, right? So
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. Yeah. Right. I think that's the only reason why I ever I've never been hunting. it's just not something that I find appealing. But at the same time, conceptually, I feel like it's the fact that we don't hunt anymore for our food that has taken that away cle we take everything for granted. Whereas if you killed that thing and you
Siddharth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Froilan Diaz: were over its carcass and you now have to carve it for your own nourishment. Like yeah, you're you're gonna be quite aware of what you just did and and what it
Siddharth: Yeah, yeah.
Froilan Diaz: took for that to happen. So I you know, sometimes in that sense I feel like as you're going back to the land and trying to live naturally, all of a sudden you kind of realize like, man, this is life was just so much bigger to people as they actually had to do every single thing.
Siddharth: Mm mm. Yeah, I have a friend who's she has a farm set up in upstate New York and that's what she she grows her pigs and her her food and she names the creatures also, but then when she sacrifices them, she thanks them. And on some level I do that in my lab where I have animals and I have to cut into them. I don't name my snails, but I still
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: we do call them and scientists call them sacrifices and and we do thank them on some level for contributing towards this experiment. You know, and that's now a a lot of that has been lost in the industrial science complex where you don't know where your animals are coming from. You order
Froilan Diaz: Right.
Siddharth: order them online almost.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah.
Siddharth: and scientists have no no longer natural we used to be naturalists, but now we are more you know, scientists in a in a wheel. So I think there was a lot of sense to some of the older practices, definitely.
Froilan Diaz: Yeah. Well, Siddharth, we come to the end of our interview, but I d I did wanna give you a minute to talk about some events that you got coming up and remind us again of the date of your book and I wanna get those out for ya.
Siddharth: Yeah, so I am Siddhartha Ramakrishnan. I I have a book talk coming up on October twenty third and the twenty with the Seattle Book Club. And then my book is coming out, the Neuroscience of Magic is coming out November eighth and from Lavellin Press. But you can pre-order it right now. my website is brainmystic.com, B-R-A-I-N Mystic dot com. And you can find me on Instagram at Sidbits, S I D D B I T S. Thank you.
Froilan Diaz: And we'll make sure to get that information in the show notes when we post this episode. But I wanna thank you for coming on to this interview. This was really fun, really fascinating. And thank you for the work too.
Siddharth: Thank you, and thank you for all the like I love the the tan like the questions and how it kinda weaved. It was a great conversation.
Froilan Diaz: Of course, all that stuff I I'm just deeply fascinated by, so this was a lot of fun to get to get a eat early peek at your book too. Thank you so much. Well,
Siddharth: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
Froilan Diaz: we'll be talking soon and I wish you well on your book tour and the release as well. We'll talk soon.
Siddharth: Thank you. Bye.
Froilan Diaz: Thank you, Veiled Seekers, for watching the Veiled Path podcast. I really hope you enjoyed this episode in this wonderful talk with Dr. Siddharth Ramakrishnan. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe, hit the bell icon below. If you're one of our Spotify listeners, please rate the podcast five stars if you enjoyed the episode. Stay true out there and we will see you next time.
