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Psychometric is a very interesting, topic.
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I'm very familiar in the sense that I led teams in the corporate world,
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and we went through this trainings and assessment and very useful.
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Oh Tony with Psychometrics, let's say personal data assessment,
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especially in teams or organizations.
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Yeah.
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What do you find that they can solve or address that otherwise people can't.
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For example, our team was 50 or 55 people.
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When we went through this, you might know the inside colors, but just like people
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realization that, okay, there are people whose main way to process information
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and situations is facts and logic.
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People, emotions, and action.
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That was always very helpful.
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So in that context what do you think is not possible if people
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don't have this understanding?
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I know that system really well, and I know people that worked on it and built
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their ideal customer model around it.
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So they were very smart in how they marketed it and used the terminology
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and the language that they used to articulate the meaning behind it.
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So it got people to be a really accessible way to understand how they
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might be processing things differently.
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Without that you're flying blind and maybe pondering on or reacting
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to things without that insight.
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It's just being a bit more informed and forewarned is forearm sort of thing.
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So you can start to mitigate potential challenges with that level of insight.
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However, I do believe that because of the nature of those types of models where you
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predominantly red or predominantly yellow, or predominantly green, for example.
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It comes with limitations.
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And of course, in a team of 50 people, the degree of nuance that
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you can have with each of those individuals is probably marginal.
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But I think perhaps the, just the marginal, incremental gains that you can
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have over a longer period of time are worth are actually worth fighting for.
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They're worth trying to get to.
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I've spent four years, four years deeply.
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Assessing all of these different models for all of what's good about
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them and for all of the negativity that surrounds them as well.
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Lots of detractors from about Myers-Briggs or about the Enneagram,
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not being scientifically valid, and then you've got the big five,
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which is scientifically valid, but, people still question its usage.
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How do you actually apply this stuff in the real world?
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So I've layered all these things together and tried to understand out of all of
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this, if we want people to perform, if I want my team to perform better,
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if I'm charged with managing a team or leading a team, there's never too
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much information I can have about them.
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How I utilize that is then with me, and of course my own perceptions and
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personality type will to some degree, predetermine how much information I
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want to take in about these people.
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It might even predetermine how much I actually really care about these people.
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However, if I'm charged with leading or managing them, I've gotta find a way to
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engineer without losing authenticity, I've gotta understand that actually I
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lack a little bit of genuine empathy.
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I might need to try and dial that up in order to go and meet people where they
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need to be met, to have a conversation with them that's gonna help me help
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them get the best out of themselves.
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Without first the self-awareness that it can bring, I don't think I've got any
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real chance of going through those key moments in a business or in the sports
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world or wherever, without making daily mistakes that I don't need to be making.
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And when I say mistakes just errors of judgment around how my approach
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is impacting the people around me.
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I'm not even thinking about it.
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So I'm going in saying, this is the way I lead.
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This is the way I do business.
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This is what we're trying to achieve.
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So some people that's great.
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To the rest, they to varying degrees, they don't like it, they don't trust
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me, they don't, the way I speak to them, they don't understand it.
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So I'm with, without arming myself with more insight of things that I can't
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see, I'm interested in getting visible.
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Things that I can't see on the surface.
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I always think of it like this, Niki.
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If I'm, and I've been in this situation many times a football manager going
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into a dressing room for the first time.
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I've never met these people before.
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The scouts have told me what they're like, we know we've got the data
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analysis about what they're like, but at that moment, they're looking at me
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waiting for signs chinks in my armor.
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Is this guy going to pick me?
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Is he gonna like me?
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Is he gonna motivate me?
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Does he know what he's talking about?
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And for the sort of lesser, well-intentioned people in the
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room, when's this guy gonna trip up?
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How can I get the better of him?
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What's his weakness?
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So you're faced with this all the time.
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It's pretty handy to know a lot of that stuff in advance, right?
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Yeah.
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And a lot of it is that there's the reality of that, and then
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there's also the perception.
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So how I think about that and how other people think about is different, and that
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in itself is worth consideration, I think.
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That's how I look at it.
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And unfortunately for me, it's been a labor of love for the last four years.
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It's finally coming out into the book and the tool, which is which is fantastic.
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What I didn't wanna do is type people or label people or put them into boxes.
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I want to conceptualize the idea that there's limitless differences
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between us whilst we're human and we are more predominantly red,
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green, yellow, or blue, let's say.
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That's what makes us, consistently part of the human race.
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We've all got varying degrees of this stuff, but I want to get a little more
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granularity about how is that gonna be.
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If we're both predominantly yellow or we're both predominantly blue, that
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doesn't tell me enough about who we are or how we express who we are.
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It doesn't tell me what we want.
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It doesn't tell me, what needs need to be met.
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It doesn't tell me lots of stuff.
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So I want to get into that and help people have those conversations with
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themselves in the dialogue, first and then to then be able to have better
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conversations with other people.
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By recognizing that, it's like perceptual positions.
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First person, second person, third person, all of that sort of stuff.
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Being able to put yourself in the other person's shoes because you actually
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know a lot more about how they're processing the situation that you're in.
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If we go back, sorry.
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I know that was a long response, Nick.
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That's fine.
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But just going back to your Zelensky Trump, interview and JD Vans, right?
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There was no agreement.
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We saw what we saw, right?
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We don't know what was said before and all the mechanics of that, but there, there's
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no agreement in advance of that as to, or no recognition of what each party wanted.
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Yes.
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Yeah,
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So they're already in the world of emotional responsiveness and strong
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opinions without fully understanding what it was they were having a discussion
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about and that was a problem for me.
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Yeah.
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It wasn't framed properly.
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Yes.
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I soon recap every basically just riffing on from what you shared
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and few questions came down mind.
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It's nice that you shared that what you shared about that meeting in the overall
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office, because that was my observation.
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I try to look at things as best as the volume kind of objective way.
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Of course I have my opinions and so on, but when it started derailing,
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I could just see that I understood what the Americans wanted and what
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conversation they were having.
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And then I saw the conversation that Zelensky was having and then you
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could see they don't understand.
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They are like in a different conversation.
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So soon, they're going to really clash.
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And like you said they didn't understand where the other one was standing and yeah.
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So things that came, my mind is when you said, without this understanding, which
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I think that symbols and yet somewhat powerful understanding from all these
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psychometric is to understand that people genuinely actually think and
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perceive the world very differently.
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That's already very useful because let's say, if I'm Green, I'm
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thinking that everybody process things mainly through emotions.
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How it sounds, how it feels.
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If I'm mainly red, I'm wondering why aren't we moving towards action?
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What are we here talking about This like facts and analytics.
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Like, why don't we just move into action and if we don't have the understanding
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because other people actually see this situation very differently and the
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way they want to move is different.
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Then you talked about the utilization, which you mentioned
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things like self-awareness, empathy.
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I think curiosity or eagerness to learn about people and to
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recognize that actually to be to lead people well is we need courage.
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I think we need to implement test.
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I think genuine curiosity about people.
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Like you said that a moment when you go into the locker room, it's a
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big moment because in leadership we are in some way, we are inviting,
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we are asking people like, do you want to go with me on this journey?
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Shall we go there?
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It is only wise from people to look.
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Let's see if Nick, if Rob, if Tony, let's see if they really have my best in mind.
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Let's see if they are still two months from now still going there or have they
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changed their direction many times?
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I have a lot of clients who are leaders and sometimes they communicate
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about vision in their specific way for two weeks and people aren't
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motivated and I always want them to understand, it'll probably a year to
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get everybody really fully on board.
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Like you said about, especially when we talk with group of people, if they are
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unconscious, that our main orientation should talk logic and facts, then only
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the, let's say people who appreciate that the most, they will be on board.
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But then if they are yellow and we only talk about people
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and how it relates to people.
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10 people who are action or emotion oriented or fact oriented
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might not be so much on board.
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00:09:26
So to like to be able to communicate to a group in a way that gets everybody there.
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And I find it very useful in general when groups or teams get stuck is
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when we have this understanding, then we can see where they're stuck.
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Okay.
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Rob is now stuck in this because he needs to get facts and logic, and
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so far we only talk about emotion.
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Or Niki is now stuck because he needs to see how this impacts people actually.
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I'm a little bit like touching different point of view that of the limitation,
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which I saw very much in our organization.
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Now it became about.
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I didn't do it because I'm red.
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00:10:02
Oh, I spoke like that because I'm red, or they're like yellow.
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Just forget about it.
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That's very limiting.
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I have three questions.
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00:10:09
You can choose which one.
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00:10:10
But one thing I'm really curious about is because I had this sense already
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00:10:15
probably seven years ago where I said.
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Ask our boss.
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Do you think people can change in this?
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If somebody's very low and red do they think they can go up?
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Because for me, really that changed a lot.
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And in my observation, I might be wrong, but, because I used to have
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strong need to people to like me.
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Then I wouldn't be so direct, so that didn't mean that I was
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red, but my fear was bigger.
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But as the fear was removed, my red went up like this.
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So I just, oh, that's something if you want to go into can
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we actually change this?
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Also, you've been writing the book.
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I would be very curious how what's different, how you were thinking
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00:10:55
about it differently before another, you've been writing it.
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00:10:59
And for many leaders is what do you think is preventing people from actually in,
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00:11:04
because as we know in leaders in general, you get gonna get information, but are
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00:11:09
you going to actually implement it?
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00:11:11
The first one, I think, Rob, you did an article not so
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00:11:13
long ago the adaptation tax.
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00:11:15
I work at it through three levels.
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00:11:18
If you think about the dimension being the first thing, so the red,
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00:11:20
the green, the blue, for example.
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00:11:22
So the dimension says that's the broad.
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00:11:24
That's puts our peg in the ground of where we typically are.
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00:11:27
Then within that, there are different aspects that make up that thing.
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So the two of us in my models, which is a score model, so emotional stability for
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00:11:34
example, has got four facets that live underneath that dimension, four aspects.
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00:11:39
Each of those aspects we could score equally high or low on the dimension, but
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00:11:45
any of the four aspects could be making up those numbers to different degrees.
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00:11:48
So the way we express that emotional stability is different.
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00:11:52
So I articulate it like this.
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00:11:54
If you imagine that we are more predominantly objective task oriented.
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00:11:59
Et cetera versus, emotionally attuned, people focused et cetera.
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00:12:04
It doesn't mean the ones that score lower don't have it.
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00:12:07
They just don't access it.
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00:12:09
It's not their natural way to process.
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00:12:11
So within that is the opportunity to grow.
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00:12:14
But we're obviously it's not taking big steps like learning
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00:12:17
maths or learning English.
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00:12:19
It's learning how to calibrate for the challenge ahead.
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00:12:23
For myself personally, to actually go, you know what?
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00:12:25
I'm actually stepping outside of what I'm really wired to do here.
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00:12:29
And it's gonna come at a personal cost.
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00:12:31
So with me, for example, if I'm asked to spend a long time, with routine
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00:12:36
detail oriented types of things.
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00:12:38
I'm switched off.
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00:12:39
I'm demotivated.
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00:12:41
I hear you.
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00:12:41
Okay.
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00:12:41
I can I do it?
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00:12:42
I can do it.
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00:12:42
Do I want to do it?
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00:12:43
No, I don't want to do it.
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00:12:44
So my motivation's already diminished before I go in there.
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00:12:48
My application is, as optimal as I can steal myself to do it.
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00:12:52
And that's coming at a huge cost to stress 'cause I wanna be
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00:12:55
doing something else, efficacy.
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00:12:56
All of these things are being impacted now.
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00:12:59
That's happening.
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00:13:00
So going back to the vision statement, we all agree as a team we've done
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00:13:03
our personality profile and we are all in agreement that we respect
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00:13:07
each other, we understand each other, and we've agreed to point ourselves
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00:13:11
towards this collective goal, let's say now every day that might change.
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00:13:15
The goal might shift, the business might change its expectations.
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00:13:19
Different manager might come in, a new person joins the team.
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00:13:21
All of these things have big impacts on those dynamics and what we agreed to.
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00:13:26
But we have to be careful that we understand to what degree we're exposing
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00:13:32
all of our people to an appropriate amount of tension, stress, outside
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00:13:38
of what they're naturally doing.
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00:13:39
And of course, it would be unreasonable for us all to go, I want my perfect
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00:13:42
job within a team every day.
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00:13:45
It can happen, but it's rare.
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00:13:46
Because sometimes as part of a team, you're gonna have to collaborate.
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00:13:49
Are you gonna have to be asked to speak up?
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00:13:51
You're gonna have, all of these things that, that, that may be really
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00:13:54
challenging for different people.
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00:13:56
They're all incrementally growable, coachable, achievable.
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00:14:00
I talk about modulating our, behaviors, if you like, for want of a better reason.
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00:14:04
So we express our behaviors in a certain way, most naturally, highly assertive.
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00:14:08
More demure highly energetic, more laid back, whatever it might be.
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00:14:12
That's an expression of who we naturally are, or maybe in some
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00:14:16
cases, who we're trying to prove that we are who we're trying to be.
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00:14:19
But anything that's outside of our natural state, there's a
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00:14:22
degree of cost that goes with it.
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00:14:24
If it's only a micro adjustment, it's easily do I can dip in and out.
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00:14:27
If you are an ambivert, if you're right on the cusp of introvert,
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00:14:30
extrovert is a really great example.
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00:14:33
You can dip into a group setting and it not cost you too much energy.
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00:14:36
You spend time on your own and you're not pulling your hair out trying to,
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00:14:40
get amongst the people all the time.
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00:14:41
That's a really simplistic example of it.
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00:14:43
If you think about my model as cutting that into many more aspects than
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00:14:48
a two dimensional sort of matrix.
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00:14:50
Each of those things have got an, the introversion extroversion thing.
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00:14:54
To what degree am I, extroverted or introverted?
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00:14:57
So to what level of granularity?
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00:14:59
Because at that point I know that every time we're doing this type of activity,
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00:15:04
these people are churning more energy.
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00:15:07
They're burning more personal fuel in order to do what I'm asking them to do.
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00:15:12
And that's the same as the manager.
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00:15:13
If I'm using the example that you, Niki, that you raised about the,
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00:15:18
your, when you were able to bring your fear down to a degree where your
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00:15:22
assertiveness could go up, right?
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00:15:24
You became more read in using that language.
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00:15:26
It's a great example of, two completely different systems at play there, right?
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00:15:30
One's on my model, one's on one system, one's on another system.
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00:15:34
But so knowing that which one of those you can need to modulate in order to
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00:15:38
get yourself into those zones, it's a great example of you modulating your
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00:15:44
expression to get the job done that needs to be done recognizing actually.
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00:15:48
Before you had this mastery over your emotional state, it would be coming at
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00:15:52
a high cost to have to be that person.
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00:15:55
Now that cost is diminished because you've increased your capacity.
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00:15:59
So I think all of these things are trainable.
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00:16:01
We can't change who we are.
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00:16:03
We certainly can't change or try to change who the people are, but we can,
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00:16:07
I think, approach it with a degree of confident because we all adapt over time.
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00:16:13
We all grow through challenges.
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00:16:14
Yeah.
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00:16:14
We all grow through struggle.
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00:16:15
So we're taking a team through a challenge and through a
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00:16:17
struggle, and we grow together.
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00:16:19
And we intentionally know that we're creating the optimum amount
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00:16:24
of tension that's gonna help these people grow through struggle.
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00:16:27
I think we're really on the right path when it comes to performance.
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00:16:30
Now, you'll have to forgive me.
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00:16:31
I've forgotten what questions two and three were.
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00:16:33
That's the whole idea also, but I really liked what you especially talk, talked
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00:16:37
about incremental steps and calibrating and this, understanding, which I think
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00:16:42
as you talked about it, I gonna be more conscious of it with my clients.
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00:16:45
I realize I'm quite conscious of exactly that.
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00:16:49
It comes with a cost.
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00:16:50
To be something or do something that doesn't really, isn't really
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00:16:55
the most natural thing to us.
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00:16:56
There is the interesting thing.
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00:16:58
It's just an observation is that if it can reframe something like, let's say for
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00:17:03
example for me to do admin things when I was leading my them and those things, if
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00:17:09
I would be able to frame it in a way that I see how doing this admin work benefits
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00:17:15
them, it's easier for me to do it.
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00:17:18
I'll have more answers to do it.
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00:17:19
Of course, we cannot reframe ourselves out of everything, but, I'll jump a
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00:17:23
little bit into, not different topic, but the aspect of implementation.
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00:17:27
Because you are writing a book, you probably want people to implement it.
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00:17:30
Now five years, over 3000 sessions, I think is one of my biggest observations
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00:17:35
of realization is that we have lot of information and insight, but
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00:17:40
people are not implementing it.
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00:17:42
And there's, of course, I think one of the main reasons is, stress
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00:17:46
because how stress impacts the brain as, as you might know, what Rob was
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00:17:49
saying about when we are stressed, we literally we don't see people as people.
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00:17:53
We see them as objects.
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00:17:54
This thing is either helping me to get rid of the problem and stress
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00:17:59
this thing is causing more of it.
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00:18:01
This thing can be ignored because it doesn't do either.
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00:18:04
And like you talked about, self-awareness, curiosity, incremental learning.
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00:18:09
When we are stressed, then the bodies and the brain is in a state where we need
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00:18:14
to solve a life threatening problem now.
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00:18:18
And when we are stressed, let's say we are chased by the lion want to be
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00:18:22
thinking, how might I change this?
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00:18:24
Or I wonder how I could support chain more, or what's
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00:18:27
the small next small change?
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00:18:29
Yeah.
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00:18:30
And that's I think in general is one of the biggest difficulties in our time
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00:18:34
and era that, that we are sitting in Rob, you heard me talking about this.
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00:18:38
We are sitting in front of our computer in perfect safety and
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00:18:44
yet and then we are stressed.
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00:18:46
For example, the reason why it's so difficult for people to take
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00:18:49
a break, obviously it's not a technical reason because taking
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00:18:51
a break is very easy technically.
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00:18:53
But if the brain are in some chronic low level stress state, the moment
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00:18:58
where the person tries to leave their desk, they start feel literal, pull from
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00:19:03
the body and the brain do not leave.
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00:19:05
But stay in the work because there's all these connections
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00:19:08
of if I don't do this work well enough, then I might not be liked.
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00:19:11
And if I'm not liked, then I might get fired.
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00:19:14
If I get fired, I earn money, and I'll just end up dead on the street.
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00:19:17
And of course it's very difficult for us to realize that our body and
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00:19:21
brain are really thinking that we are in a life or dead situation.
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00:19:24
And then we will develop this whole story of I'm lazy or why I have all these
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00:19:30
ideas of what I would want to learn.
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00:19:32
All these things I know that are really important to do, but
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00:19:34
somehow I can't make myself do it.
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00:19:36
And that's mainly because people don't recognize what is the stage they are in.
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00:19:40
And I think that's one of the main causes, even for leaders, why
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00:19:45
they can't implement something.
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00:19:47
And then another thing that you mentioned, and I'll start with that, is almost
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00:19:51
really unfortunate unwillingness or blind spot to take really small steps.
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00:19:56
I see it all the time, especially when clients start with me, like they
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00:20:00
want to be this leader who's able to communicate to everybody really clearly,
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00:20:04
be calm, be empathetic, be inspiring, however they are here and they have
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00:20:11
never even asked a question, what kind of communicator would I want to be?
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00:20:15
Then they're frustrated and discouraged because they aren't here.
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00:20:19
It would be better for them to focus on, okay, next seven days.
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00:20:23
What's a really small improvement?
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00:20:25
Maybe I could ask bit more questions.
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00:20:28
What questions?
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00:20:29
Maybe I can just ask people why something is important.
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00:20:32
That's what I will do the next seven days, because that takes a lot of stress away
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00:20:36
and it's impossible to focus on something like becoming a better leader because
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00:20:41
for the brain, it doesn't need anything.
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00:20:43
Yeah.
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00:20:43
What do you see just in general or in the context of the psychometric?
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00:20:48
Like how can someone help them do, for example, I things from implement
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00:20:53
things from your book, for example?
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00:20:55
Yeah.
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00:20:55
Psychometrics are just a tool, right?
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00:20:57
And most of them give you a point on the map.
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00:21:00
You are here.
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00:21:00
That's useless unless I know where I am in relation to where I want to go.
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00:21:05
Okay.
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00:21:05
So when the goal is a big one and it's a complex one, then if I'm in the car and I
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00:21:10
turn my GPS on and I want to go place I've never been to before, it knows where I am.
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00:21:14
But it is gotta work out the best route.
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00:21:15
It gives me multiple options.
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00:21:16
Do you wanna go the fast way?
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00:21:17
Do you wanna go the countryside way?
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00:21:19
Whatever it might be.
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00:21:20
So I see this as a performance GPS and then along the way you come, the
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00:21:24
gps has plotted a route and suddenly there's a roadworks that was unexpected.
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00:21:29
And now it's now I'm stuck.
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00:21:30
These are like these people that get in the way or a change
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00:21:32
process or something like that.
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00:21:33
Oh my God, what do I do?
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00:21:35
But GPS doesn't know this, hasn't worked this out.
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00:21:37
So this is about when it needs to recalibrate.
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00:21:39
I'm now here, take me in on a different route to overcome this obstacle.
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00:21:42
So I see this as a performance GPS type thing.
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00:21:44
It's a navigation tool.
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00:21:46
Okay?
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00:21:46
And of course that won't give you all the answers, but it helps you just
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00:21:50
do more than define where you are.
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00:21:52
It's in relation to where you want to go.
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00:21:53
So with your client, when I'm listening to you talk about your
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00:21:56
clients and they're setting these big, I wanna be a great leader or a
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00:21:59
great orator, or whatever it might be.
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00:22:01
I think we're always dealing in the gap between the reality, the
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00:22:05
situation, and the aspiration.
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00:22:07
What do we want and where are we going?
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00:22:09
Where are we?
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00:22:10
So the leader for me.
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00:22:12
We're talking multiple people with multiple perceptions of where
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00:22:16
we are and where we're going.
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00:22:17
The groups agreed that we are here and we are going there of them.
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00:22:20
Their ideal route would be slightly different.
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00:22:22
Someone would take the long way, someone would get there as fast as possible.
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00:22:25
Someone would get there by gathering as much information as they can go.
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00:22:29
All of that's that's real.
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00:22:30
Nevertheless, we have to take a step.
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00:22:32
We have to go together.
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00:22:34
So already got people starting to go.
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00:22:37
Oh.
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00:22:37
Like it's not quite my ideal route.
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00:22:40
It's helpful to know this, right?
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00:22:41
That as I'm taking them along this journey, some people at this stage of
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00:22:44
the journey are hurting more than others.
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00:22:46
It's like going back to my role as a football coach, when you've
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00:22:49
got high fast twitch people.
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00:22:52
So the speedsters, the real electric pace guys, and you've got the marathon runners.
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00:22:56
Sprinters and a marathon runner.
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00:22:58
Got completely different makeups in their in their biology.
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00:23:02
And if we train them all the same, the marathon runner will
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00:23:05
never be the quickest, but you can keep doing sprint training.
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00:23:08
And they'll might incrementally get better, but because they're
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00:23:10
not so explosive, they're not burning as much fuel.
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00:23:14
Whereas if you do a hundred sprints with a sprinter and a hundred sprints with a
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00:23:18
marathon runner, the sprinter will win all the time 'cause they're quicker,
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00:23:22
but the sprint is burning more fuel.
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00:23:24
And the sprinter will break down quicker.
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00:23:26
The sprinter will get hamstring tears.
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00:23:27
You're overloading a system that doesn't need to be overloaded.
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00:23:30
So I think of it like that in terms of the psyche.
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00:23:33
We're putting them into situations that they actually don't need too much
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00:23:36
of this because too much of it, and they're gonna start breaking down.
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00:23:39
They're gonna start getting the little hamstring tears and things like that.
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00:23:42
Even one aspect.
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00:23:43
If I think about emotional regulation, for example, okay, we talk about, in
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00:23:48
terms of self-awareness, we wanna be aware of and regulate our emotions.
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00:23:51
We want to help people choose the right emotional expression,
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00:23:55
not just the easiest.
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00:23:56
So the easiest is often I'm reacting to the situation.
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00:23:59
We want 'em to get control of that and choose what emotion.
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00:24:02
So in your case, when you need to demonstrate some assertiveness, rather
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00:24:07
than suppress it, that's the easy thing.
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00:24:09
The hard thing is to actually come out and say it.
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00:24:11
Yeah.
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00:24:11
We wanna manage our response.
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00:24:13
From an emotional awareness point of view, we wanna understand the triggers
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00:24:16
or the patterns that make us tick, or the patterns that make us blow up.
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00:24:19
Working in a aviation environment where we need to be at our best
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00:24:23
when our best is required, but these businesses say we want resilient people.
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00:24:27
We're gonna put 'em under match pressure every day from seven in the
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00:24:29
morning till four in the afternoon.
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00:24:31
And if they survive, great.
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00:24:34
There's a high turnover.
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00:24:35
So I'm dealing with people who are emotionally and cognitively at breaking
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00:24:39
point because they were constantly under pressure to perform, which is unrealistic.
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00:24:44
In the football world, you perform on a Saturday, the rest
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00:24:46
of the time you're recovering.
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00:24:48
Training, learning, data analysis.
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00:24:51
And of course it's not quite the same in business, the
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00:24:54
physical load isn't the same.
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00:24:55
But if we use the analogy of the brain versus the body, it's
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00:24:59
still the same sort of thing.
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00:25:00
So this expectation of resilience, we're talking about the emotional impact.
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00:25:05
If I go home from work stressed, then my body needs time to recover in order
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00:25:12
that I come back in an optimal state the next day to perform at my best.
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00:25:15
So that recalibration that recovery ability needs time.
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00:25:20
So people that have been exposed to a higher degree of stress
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00:25:23
need more time to recover.
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00:25:24
Of course, in the workplace.
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00:25:25
They're all given the same amount of time.
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00:25:27
They're all put under more stress than they need to be.
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00:25:30
So when they come back the next day, they're incrementally starting
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00:25:33
from a slightly lower baseline than they were the day before.
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00:25:37
So over time, you get this burnout.
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00:25:39
Accumulates in the lack of recovery, not in the amount
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00:25:41
of stress we put people under.
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00:25:42
In my opinion, in football, you.
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00:25:45
If you recover well, you can come back and try and be at your best on the next game.
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00:25:49
And the last one is situational calibration, adjusting the intensity
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00:25:53
of emotions to fit the context.
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00:25:56
As a football manager is another example where the team just at halftime, they're
Speaker:
00:26:01
coming and they just haven't performed to the anywhere near the way that they
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00:26:05
train, the way that you plan for, the way that everyone's agreed that we
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00:26:08
should, and everybody knows it, okay.
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00:26:10
At that point, in terms of that situational calibration, you have to
Speaker:
00:26:13
be able to adjust the intensity of your response to meet the environment.
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00:26:19
And not just fly off the handle because you're flying off the handle irate
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00:26:23
because my needs are not being met.
Speaker:
00:26:24
It's like there's a whole group of people there who need the right
Speaker:
00:26:28
response in the right moment and that right response might be to turn
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00:26:31
the heat right up and blast them.
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00:26:33
And then put an arm around the few that's going have, shaken to their core.
Speaker:
00:26:37
It's complicated, right?
Speaker:
00:26:38
So my thoughts are it's not good enough to have a map that tells us where we are
Speaker:
00:26:44
because that's where you've got 60 page reports sitting in every drawer of every
Speaker:
00:26:48
manager in the country 'cause they don't know how to implement it on a daily basis.
Speaker:
00:26:52
I come back, I had a great workshop with the guys from Insights, red,
Speaker:
00:26:56
green, blue, yellow, which is fantastic.
Speaker:
00:26:58
We understand each other better.
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00:26:59
We've got our cards and cue cards, and today I'm feeling a bit
Speaker:
00:27:02
stress, so don't come at me with anything, whatever it might be.
Speaker:
00:27:05
You got some brilliant prompts and things like some great stuff in there, but the
Speaker:
00:27:09
reality that you are talking about, which is, I've gotta get this thing finished.
Speaker:
00:27:13
I'm gonna stay back till the 11 at night to get it done.
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00:27:15
I feel guilty if I leave.
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00:27:17
And I need to feel validated by my boss if I don't do it.
Speaker:
00:27:20
A million things going on.
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00:27:21
This is the reality.
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00:27:22
Yes.
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00:27:22
The expectation is this dream state that we're all heading for.
Speaker:
00:27:26
Implementation comes with a little bit more insight than where we are.
Speaker:
00:27:30
It has to say we know we're here.
Speaker:
00:27:32
That comes with a level of understanding.
Speaker:
00:27:34
But in order to really have an impact.
Speaker:
00:27:37
We know, we now know where we're going.
Speaker:
00:27:39
So if I've got a team of 10 people who've agreed that this is the vision, this is
Speaker:
00:27:43
the big idea, this is the big challenge.
Speaker:
00:27:45
We've got 10 different, ideal, optimal approaches to meet that goal.
Speaker:
00:27:50
But we've gotta do it together.
Speaker:
00:27:52
And then I see this is where the implementation comes in.
Speaker:
00:27:55
I might need to lean on Rob for some more, depth and rationale.
Speaker:
00:27:59
But otherwise, ideas central.
Speaker:
00:28:01
I'll think this is a great and my biggest failing, by the way, going back
Speaker:
00:28:03
to, I was in football for a long time.
Speaker:
00:28:06
I use this a lot because it's the one that really, captures for me
Speaker:
00:28:10
some, so some of the essence of this.
Speaker:
00:28:11
So where I've the core of this book comes from in practice I was
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00:28:15
taking people towards a vision they weren't ready to go towards.
Speaker:
00:28:19
So they were agreeing in the meeting room, in the team meeting, all
Speaker:
00:28:22
the players are like, yes, boss, we're with you, we're going there.
Speaker:
00:28:25
But under the surface.
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00:28:26
For different reasons.
Speaker:
00:28:27
'cause they're all different people.
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00:28:28
The further I went down this path, the further away they, they get.
Speaker:
00:28:32
Now, to cut through that.
Speaker:
00:28:33
If I believe in them more than they believe in themselves, it sounds
Speaker:
00:28:37
like a really noble thing to do.
Speaker:
00:28:39
I believe in you guys, you can do, this is my vision.
Speaker:
00:28:42
I believe that you can do it.
Speaker:
00:28:44
If I haven't taken the time to actually understand that they don't believe that
Speaker:
00:28:48
they can do it, and why they don't and what they need, then I'm losing trust.
Speaker:
00:28:53
I'm losing respect.
Speaker:
00:28:54
Yes.
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00:28:54
And they ain't following.
Speaker:
00:28:56
So there's some real hard lessons in there like that, that, that have under
Speaker:
00:29:00
underpinned this sort of research and, I suppose my aim is trying to help people
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00:29:04
be better in those moments where where your people need you to help 'cause you
Speaker:
00:29:08
only need to lead people when they facing challenges they can't meet on their own.
Speaker:
00:29:12
If it's a technical problem that they're qualified to do, you let
Speaker:
00:29:15
'em get on with it and they're happily be at the computers all day.
Speaker:
00:29:17
And maybe not feel stressed about it, but if they're in a collaborative,
Speaker:
00:29:21
really high level challenge that none of us have tried to accomplish before.
Speaker:
00:29:24
Win the league or sell twice as much as we've ever sold before.
Speaker:
00:29:28
If a new product we've never taken to market it's ooh, we're growing
Speaker:
00:29:31
together here, we're growing in public.
Speaker:
00:29:33
It's a lot of vulnerability required, so it helps to know ourselves, know
Speaker:
00:29:39
each other to some different levels and degrees of, that, that give us
Speaker:
00:29:43
enough things that we can act on.
Speaker:
00:29:44
So I can lean into you more if I know that actually, mate, this is
Speaker:
00:29:48
a real challenge for me, but you can, we work together on this?
Speaker:
00:29:51
Or I've got a situation now.
Speaker:
00:29:53
I'm working with a company and we've asked to present to a group
Speaker:
00:29:56
in Saudi Arabia and I've been asked to, to put the presentation forward.
Speaker:
00:30:00
I'm really comfortable with presentations.
Speaker:
00:30:02
But I know there's somebody in the group who's a better subject matter expert, and
Speaker:
00:30:07
in the window that we've got to present, I think you'll be a better lead on it.
Speaker:
00:30:10
So I think those kind of things.
Speaker:
00:30:12
It just helps.
Speaker:
00:30:13
So there's three things that really stood out to me that
Speaker:
00:30:16
you seem to talk a lot about.
Speaker:
00:30:17
One is the calibration, and then you didn't use the
Speaker:
00:30:20
following word, but a rhythm.
Speaker:
00:30:23
And then I just briefly rob want to mention what I was hearing and what
Speaker:
00:30:27
insights came to me is in the corporate world, in the business world, the
Speaker:
00:30:33
rhythm, often is of how people work.
Speaker:
00:30:36
It's very in ineffective and just really founded on some industrial era
Speaker:
00:30:41
ideas of how we are productive, but the rhythm is basically, the idea is
Speaker:
00:30:46
that everybody can, and shoot all the time, be able to perform like this.
Speaker:
00:30:51
But every time there's a little bit dip here below, it's people individually
Speaker:
00:30:57
consider that there's something wrong.
Speaker:
00:31:00
There's only one gear and that's been super productive and focused.
Speaker:
00:31:03
Everything else is bad, and so people like go here and then they
Speaker:
00:31:07
start falling, like you said.
Speaker:
00:31:09
That they will actually every day come with little bit less energy,
Speaker:
00:31:13
clarity of mind, while really healthy and actually productive.
Speaker:
00:31:18
Even like a science-based approach to work would be what you talked about.
Speaker:
00:31:22
Calibration, for example, that.
Speaker:
00:31:24
Today, this is the situation, this homicide energy.
Speaker:
00:31:27
These are things that I'm doing like, okay, today, I'm a little bit introvert.
Speaker:
00:31:31
I need to speak with many people okay.
Speaker:
00:31:33
I know that today I will set my rhythm bit differently.
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00:31:37
Yeah.
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00:31:37
And whatever.
Speaker:
00:31:38
And then we then, the valleys, stop being problems.
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00:31:42
We understand that I actually do need to rest.
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00:31:45
I'm doing it to give myself a little bit of grace, and then in my observation,
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00:31:49
then the performance can be like this.
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00:31:52
Yeah.
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00:31:52
And but again that asks in some way ask for a big change on leaders and companies.
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00:31:57
I'm a spokesperson for these types of ideas because I come out of sport.
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00:32:01
In sport they call that periodization.
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00:32:03
It's intentional energy and restoration management.
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00:32:07
Exactly.
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00:32:07
It's factored into the exposure to stress.
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00:32:10
We talked about emotional resilience, but if I think about stress tolerance, which
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00:32:14
is a big factor in resilience and again, easy to you think about sport and a big
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00:32:19
match and 10 minutes to go and you need to score another goal to win the league.
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00:32:23
High pressure.
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00:32:24
The everything you do is under scrutiny.
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00:32:26
You get instant feedback from the crowd, from social media, whether
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00:32:29
you're doing a good job or a bad job.
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00:32:30
So it's high level of stress, but in the workplace it's no different.
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00:32:33
So pressure handling becomes, really important to maintain the right level
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00:32:39
under let's call it match pressure.
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00:32:41
Then there's recovery capacity, which is managing energy and restoration.
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00:32:44
Some people will naturally be happy stepping back and
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00:32:47
taking their time, recover.
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00:32:49
Work life balance is a natural thing to them, whereas others,
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00:32:52
high achievers, more rigid.
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00:32:54
Sometimes perfectionists will be putting themselves under increasing amounts of
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00:32:59
pressure to get more things done, but then that might also start to come around in
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00:33:04
a way that not only is it detrimental to me 'cause I'm overworking, it's damaging
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00:33:09
my relationships with other people because now what do they think of me?
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00:33:12
I'm not putting as much effort in, and now I'm starting to feel great and then
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00:33:15
start some resentment starts to build.
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00:33:17
So all of these things are feeding each other all the time.
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00:33:20
Then you've got change people's, again, we're talking about
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00:33:22
stress tolerance people's.
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00:33:24
Ability to adapt, to adjust to changing demands.
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00:33:27
Some people like me, happy as Larry, give me multiple things that change and
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00:33:32
that living in the chaos I quite enjoy.
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00:33:33
I love that.
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00:33:34
Giving me something that's fixed and routine every day.
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00:33:37
I'm going nuts basically.
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00:33:38
Again, it's about knowing the impact of these things on the people that.
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00:33:43
You're tasked with managing or leading.
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00:33:46
And the last one is personal resource management, as in, efficient
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00:33:50
allocation of the finite amount of energy that we've all got.
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00:33:53
So when you put those four things together, handling pressure, capacity
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00:33:57
to recover ability to adapt and managing internal resources, the
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00:34:02
answer is in there and we all have it.
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00:34:04
But because businesses, we say businesses, it's people at the top of businesses,
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00:34:09
but the nature of the pursuit of the goal seems to outweigh, for all we have
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00:34:13
mental health practitioners on site now.
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00:34:16
Which sounds like a great thing in theory, and it is because they're there
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00:34:19
to help the people, but they're there to help 'em because we've created a
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00:34:22
problem, which is we're putting people under extraordinary level of demand
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00:34:26
that they're not really built for.
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00:34:28
There's an optimal amount of pressure that will make them motivated and perform.
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00:34:32
They need the optimal amount of recovery and restoration so they
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00:34:36
can bounce back and be ready to perform again at the top level.
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00:34:39
If in the state of the, ever changing demands and speed of change,
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00:34:44
we need to understand that some people are predisposed to enjoying
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00:34:47
that and some people are not.
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00:34:48
So the stress levels that the stress tolerance is different for
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00:34:51
everybody in a changing environment.
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00:34:53
And then it's helping, it's teaching people to, manage their own resources.
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00:34:58
Some people may need to go to for a run to recharge after work.
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00:35:02
Some people might need a massage, some people might need to turn the lights
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00:35:05
off and meditate, whatever it might be.
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00:35:07
Trying to learn about that for ourselves and for each other so that we know.
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00:35:11
We talk about this increasing our capacity.
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00:35:14
For stress tolerance.
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00:35:16
'cause that's growth, right?
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00:35:16
We, if we wanna perform better, one aspect of that might be, I'm now
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00:35:20
more able to handle more stress in a way that's manageable and effective.
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00:35:25
I'm now performing better.
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00:35:26
I'm pushing those boundaries, rather than go under, rather than burn out.
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00:35:30
I've got all these things intentionally calibrated to optimize
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00:35:34
the people that I'm working with.
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00:35:35
At the end of the day, the best teams typically win the league are the ones
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00:35:39
that have kept their best players on the pitch for most of the season.
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00:35:41
The teams that get lots of injuries and struggle to just don't keep up.
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00:35:45
So we need our best performers on the pitch in the best condition to perform.
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00:35:50
Without these types of things we get burnout, we get stressed, we
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00:35:53
get illness, we get mental health.
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00:35:55
If I was to condense our conversation or especially what I heard from you Tony, if
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00:36:00
I was to condense what you said, almost as this cycle or process that helps us
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00:36:06
to perform the best way and to be healthy and feel good, is first there's like
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00:36:10
awareness of who we are, who others are and what's the situation, which then leads
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00:36:16
to we are actually in standing in reality.
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00:36:18
Then as we know where we're standing, we calibrate.
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00:36:22
And then after you use the word optimize, so like awareness of the situation,
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00:36:26
actually seeing where we are standing, then calibrating, making decisions
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00:36:31
accordingly, and that leads to growth.
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00:36:34
And then opposite of that is what you mentioned in the beginning
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00:36:37
would be something like flying.
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00:36:39
Flying as fast as we can, as long as we can just fix us.
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00:36:45
Yeah.
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00:36:45
Hoping we don't hit anything.
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00:36:46
Yeah.
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00:36:47
Yeah.
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00:36:47
Yes.
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00:36:48
Hoping we'll land at some point to, yeah.
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00:36:50
Rob, what did you pull from our conversation?
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00:36:53
I found it very interesting.
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00:36:54
The key thing for me is there was all that you picked up on.
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00:36:58
The way I frame it, I like to scatter ideas.
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00:37:00
And what I see is a spectrum.
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00:37:02
The opening frame is you're starting from a position of stress because
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00:37:06
50 people is like Dunbar's numbers, everything is too much for people.
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00:37:12
And so we're starting from, and I think that's the old industrial model.
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00:37:16
The industrial model is that we just keep the line going.
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00:37:20
It doesn't matter about people and what they're doing is
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00:37:22
treating people as machines.
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00:37:24
The modern way of where we need to get to is I think we need to treat people
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00:37:28
like race horses, like the champion racehorse that you look after, you
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00:37:31
give them the time to recover you make sure they're in the best position.
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00:37:35
Along this spectrum I see, Tony, you've developed a way that can work
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00:37:39
with 50 people because you can go through the psychometrics and you
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00:37:42
can have a good sense of heuristics of how people are gonna work.
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00:37:46
And Niki, I would've liked to have got a little bit more into your model, 'cause
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00:37:50
I think we all have a model and your model is very much starting from inside.
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00:37:54
What does that meditation and peace look like and how do you get that tranquility?
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00:37:59
And then I think I'm a bit on the middle, so I think we all
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00:38:01
have a model of how people work.
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00:38:03
It would be really interesting to compare and contrast them.
Speaker:
00:38:06
Next one, whenever you're arrange it.
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00:38:08
Me too.
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00:38:08
Maybe we'll set that up and we'll go through and we'll work through
Speaker:
00:38:11
that model from the inside out and then from the outside in.
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00:38:15
Psychometric, you're looking at behaviors, whereas I know your journey has been
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00:38:18
very much looking inside yourself.
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00:38:20
Yeah.
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00:38:20
And agreeing that both our needed.
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00:38:22
If there's only internal change, nothing happens outside, then what's the point?
Speaker:
00:38:26
And same way, can we observe and live in the world in a way that it actually
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00:38:31
helps us to gain more insights and so on.
Speaker:
00:38:33
Tony, I really like talking with you, learn things from you that I
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00:38:36
know that I already want to pay a bit more attention with clients and
Speaker:
00:38:40
looking forward to the next one.
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00:38:42
Thank you, Niki.
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00:38:42
It was fantastic to meet you.
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00:38:43
I'm really keen to explore more about I have some questions for you next time.
00:00:00
Psychometric is a very interesting, topic.
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00:00:03
I'm very familiar in the sense that I led teams in the corporate world,
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00:00:07
and we went through this trainings and assessment and very useful.
Speaker:
00:00:11
Oh Tony with Psychometrics, let's say personal data assessment,
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00:00:15
especially in teams or organizations.
Speaker:
00:00:18
Yeah.
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00:00:18
What do you find that they can solve or address that otherwise people can't.
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00:00:24
For example, our team was 50 or 55 people.
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00:00:28
When we went through this, you might know the inside colors, but just like people
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00:00:33
realization that, okay, there are people whose main way to process information
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00:00:38
and situations is facts and logic.
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00:00:40
People, emotions, and action.
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00:00:43
That was always very helpful.
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00:00:44
So in that context what do you think is not possible if people
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00:00:49
don't have this understanding?
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00:00:50
I know that system really well, and I know people that worked on it and built
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00:00:55
their ideal customer model around it.
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00:00:56
So they were very smart in how they marketed it and used the terminology
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00:01:00
and the language that they used to articulate the meaning behind it.
Speaker:
00:01:03
So it got people to be a really accessible way to understand how they
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00:01:08
might be processing things differently.
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00:01:10
Without that you're flying blind and maybe pondering on or reacting
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00:01:14
to things without that insight.
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00:01:16
It's just being a bit more informed and forewarned is forearm sort of thing.
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00:01:21
So you can start to mitigate potential challenges with that level of insight.
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00:01:25
However, I do believe that because of the nature of those types of models where you
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00:01:32
predominantly red or predominantly yellow, or predominantly green, for example.
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00:01:36
It comes with limitations.
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00:01:38
And of course, in a team of 50 people, the degree of nuance that
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00:01:43
you can have with each of those individuals is probably marginal.
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00:01:46
But I think perhaps the, just the marginal, incremental gains that you can
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00:01:50
have over a longer period of time are worth are actually worth fighting for.
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00:01:54
They're worth trying to get to.
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00:01:55
I've spent four years, four years deeply.
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00:01:58
Assessing all of these different models for all of what's good about
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00:02:01
them and for all of the negativity that surrounds them as well.
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00:02:04
Lots of detractors from about Myers-Briggs or about the Enneagram,
Speaker:
00:02:09
not being scientifically valid, and then you've got the big five,
Speaker:
00:02:12
which is scientifically valid, but, people still question its usage.
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00:02:15
How do you actually apply this stuff in the real world?
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00:02:18
So I've layered all these things together and tried to understand out of all of
Speaker:
00:02:22
this, if we want people to perform, if I want my team to perform better,
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00:02:27
if I'm charged with managing a team or leading a team, there's never too
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00:02:31
much information I can have about them.
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00:02:32
How I utilize that is then with me, and of course my own perceptions and
Speaker:
00:02:36
personality type will to some degree, predetermine how much information I
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00:02:41
want to take in about these people.
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00:02:43
It might even predetermine how much I actually really care about these people.
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00:02:47
However, if I'm charged with leading or managing them, I've gotta find a way to
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00:02:52
engineer without losing authenticity, I've gotta understand that actually I
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00:02:57
lack a little bit of genuine empathy.
Speaker:
00:02:59
I might need to try and dial that up in order to go and meet people where they
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00:03:02
need to be met, to have a conversation with them that's gonna help me help
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00:03:07
them get the best out of themselves.
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00:03:09
Without first the self-awareness that it can bring, I don't think I've got any
Speaker:
00:03:13
real chance of going through those key moments in a business or in the sports
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00:03:17
world or wherever, without making daily mistakes that I don't need to be making.
Speaker:
00:03:22
And when I say mistakes just errors of judgment around how my approach
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00:03:27
is impacting the people around me.
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00:03:29
I'm not even thinking about it.
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00:03:30
So I'm going in saying, this is the way I lead.
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00:03:32
This is the way I do business.
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00:03:34
This is what we're trying to achieve.
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00:03:36
So some people that's great.
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00:03:37
To the rest, they to varying degrees, they don't like it, they don't trust
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00:03:41
me, they don't, the way I speak to them, they don't understand it.
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00:03:46
So I'm with, without arming myself with more insight of things that I can't
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00:03:51
see, I'm interested in getting visible.
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00:03:53
Things that I can't see on the surface.
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00:03:55
I always think of it like this, Niki.
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00:03:57
If I'm, and I've been in this situation many times a football manager going
Speaker:
00:04:00
into a dressing room for the first time.
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00:04:02
I've never met these people before.
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00:04:05
The scouts have told me what they're like, we know we've got the data
Speaker:
00:04:08
analysis about what they're like, but at that moment, they're looking at me
Speaker:
00:04:12
waiting for signs chinks in my armor.
Speaker:
00:04:15
Is this guy going to pick me?
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00:04:17
Is he gonna like me?
Speaker:
00:04:18
Is he gonna motivate me?
Speaker:
00:04:20
Does he know what he's talking about?
Speaker:
00:04:21
And for the sort of lesser, well-intentioned people in the
Speaker:
00:04:25
room, when's this guy gonna trip up?
Speaker:
00:04:28
How can I get the better of him?
Speaker:
00:04:29
What's his weakness?
Speaker:
00:04:30
So you're faced with this all the time.
Speaker:
00:04:32
It's pretty handy to know a lot of that stuff in advance, right?
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00:04:35
Yeah.
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00:04:36
And a lot of it is that there's the reality of that, and then
Speaker:
00:04:39
there's also the perception.
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00:04:40
So how I think about that and how other people think about is different, and that
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00:04:44
in itself is worth consideration, I think.
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00:04:47
That's how I look at it.
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00:04:48
And unfortunately for me, it's been a labor of love for the last four years.
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00:04:52
It's finally coming out into the book and the tool, which is which is fantastic.
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00:04:56
What I didn't wanna do is type people or label people or put them into boxes.
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00:05:00
I want to conceptualize the idea that there's limitless differences
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00:05:05
between us whilst we're human and we are more predominantly red,
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00:05:09
green, yellow, or blue, let's say.
Speaker:
00:05:10
That's what makes us, consistently part of the human race.
Speaker:
00:05:13
We've all got varying degrees of this stuff, but I want to get a little more
Speaker:
00:05:17
granularity about how is that gonna be.
Speaker:
00:05:19
If we're both predominantly yellow or we're both predominantly blue, that
Speaker:
00:05:23
doesn't tell me enough about who we are or how we express who we are.
Speaker:
00:05:27
It doesn't tell me what we want.
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00:05:28
It doesn't tell me, what needs need to be met.
Speaker:
00:05:31
It doesn't tell me lots of stuff.
Speaker:
00:05:33
So I want to get into that and help people have those conversations with
Speaker:
00:05:37
themselves in the dialogue, first and then to then be able to have better
Speaker:
00:05:41
conversations with other people.
Speaker:
00:05:43
By recognizing that, it's like perceptual positions.
Speaker:
00:05:46
First person, second person, third person, all of that sort of stuff.
Speaker:
00:05:49
Being able to put yourself in the other person's shoes because you actually
Speaker:
00:05:53
know a lot more about how they're processing the situation that you're in.
Speaker:
00:05:57
If we go back, sorry.
Speaker:
00:05:58
I know that was a long response, Nick.
Speaker:
00:06:00
That's fine.
Speaker:
00:06:00
But just going back to your Zelensky Trump, interview and JD Vans, right?
Speaker:
00:06:05
There was no agreement.
Speaker:
00:06:06
We saw what we saw, right?
Speaker:
00:06:07
We don't know what was said before and all the mechanics of that, but there, there's
Speaker:
00:06:10
no agreement in advance of that as to, or no recognition of what each party wanted.
Speaker:
00:06:16
Yes.
Speaker:
00:06:16
Yeah,
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00:06:16
So they're already in the world of emotional responsiveness and strong
Speaker:
00:06:21
opinions without fully understanding what it was they were having a discussion
Speaker:
00:06:26
about and that was a problem for me.
Speaker:
00:06:28
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:06:28
It wasn't framed properly.
Speaker:
00:06:29
Yes.
Speaker:
00:06:30
I soon recap every basically just riffing on from what you shared
Speaker:
00:06:34
and few questions came down mind.
Speaker:
00:06:36
It's nice that you shared that what you shared about that meeting in the overall
Speaker:
00:06:40
office, because that was my observation.
Speaker:
00:06:42
I try to look at things as best as the volume kind of objective way.
Speaker:
00:06:45
Of course I have my opinions and so on, but when it started derailing,
Speaker:
00:06:50
I could just see that I understood what the Americans wanted and what
Speaker:
00:06:55
conversation they were having.
Speaker:
00:06:56
And then I saw the conversation that Zelensky was having and then you
Speaker:
00:07:00
could see they don't understand.
Speaker:
00:07:02
They are like in a different conversation.
Speaker:
00:07:04
So soon, they're going to really clash.
Speaker:
00:07:06
And like you said they didn't understand where the other one was standing and yeah.
Speaker:
00:07:11
So things that came, my mind is when you said, without this understanding, which
Speaker:
00:07:16
I think that symbols and yet somewhat powerful understanding from all these
Speaker:
00:07:22
psychometric is to understand that people genuinely actually think and
Speaker:
00:07:27
perceive the world very differently.
Speaker:
00:07:29
That's already very useful because let's say, if I'm Green, I'm
Speaker:
00:07:34
thinking that everybody process things mainly through emotions.
Speaker:
00:07:38
How it sounds, how it feels.
Speaker:
00:07:40
If I'm mainly red, I'm wondering why aren't we moving towards action?
Speaker:
00:07:44
What are we here talking about This like facts and analytics.
Speaker:
00:07:48
Like, why don't we just move into action and if we don't have the understanding
Speaker:
00:07:52
because other people actually see this situation very differently and the
Speaker:
00:07:55
way they want to move is different.
Speaker:
00:07:57
Then you talked about the utilization, which you mentioned
Speaker:
00:08:00
things like self-awareness, empathy.
Speaker:
00:08:03
I think curiosity or eagerness to learn about people and to
Speaker:
00:08:07
recognize that actually to be to lead people well is we need courage.
Speaker:
00:08:11
I think we need to implement test.
Speaker:
00:08:14
I think genuine curiosity about people.
Speaker:
00:08:17
Like you said that a moment when you go into the locker room, it's a
Speaker:
00:08:21
big moment because in leadership we are in some way, we are inviting,
Speaker:
00:08:26
we are asking people like, do you want to go with me on this journey?
Speaker:
00:08:30
Shall we go there?
Speaker:
00:08:31
It is only wise from people to look.
Speaker:
00:08:33
Let's see if Nick, if Rob, if Tony, let's see if they really have my best in mind.
Speaker:
00:08:40
Let's see if they are still two months from now still going there or have they
Speaker:
00:08:44
changed their direction many times?
Speaker:
00:08:45
I have a lot of clients who are leaders and sometimes they communicate
Speaker:
00:08:48
about vision in their specific way for two weeks and people aren't
Speaker:
00:08:53
motivated and I always want them to understand, it'll probably a year to
Speaker:
00:08:57
get everybody really fully on board.
Speaker:
00:08:59
Like you said about, especially when we talk with group of people, if they are
Speaker:
00:09:04
unconscious, that our main orientation should talk logic and facts, then only
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00:09:10
the, let's say people who appreciate that the most, they will be on board.
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00:09:14
But then if they are yellow and we only talk about people
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00:09:18
and how it relates to people.
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00:09:20
10 people who are action or emotion oriented or fact oriented
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00:09:24
might not be so much on board.
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00:09:26
So to like to be able to communicate to a group in a way that gets everybody there.
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00:09:32
And I find it very useful in general when groups or teams get stuck is
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00:09:36
when we have this understanding, then we can see where they're stuck.
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00:09:40
Okay.
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00:09:40
Rob is now stuck in this because he needs to get facts and logic, and
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00:09:45
so far we only talk about emotion.
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00:09:47
Or Niki is now stuck because he needs to see how this impacts people actually.
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00:09:52
I'm a little bit like touching different point of view that of the limitation,
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00:09:56
which I saw very much in our organization.
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00:09:58
Now it became about.
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00:10:00
I didn't do it because I'm red.
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00:10:02
Oh, I spoke like that because I'm red, or they're like yellow.
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00:10:05
Just forget about it.
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00:10:07
That's very limiting.
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00:10:08
I have three questions.
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00:10:09
You can choose which one.
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00:10:10
But one thing I'm really curious about is because I had this sense already
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00:10:15
probably seven years ago where I said.
Speaker:
00:10:18
Ask our boss.
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00:10:20
Do you think people can change in this?
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00:10:22
If somebody's very low and red do they think they can go up?
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00:10:25
Because for me, really that changed a lot.
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00:10:28
And in my observation, I might be wrong, but, because I used to have
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00:10:32
strong need to people to like me.
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00:10:36
Then I wouldn't be so direct, so that didn't mean that I was
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00:10:39
red, but my fear was bigger.
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00:10:41
But as the fear was removed, my red went up like this.
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00:10:45
So I just, oh, that's something if you want to go into can
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00:10:48
we actually change this?
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00:10:49
Also, you've been writing the book.
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00:10:51
I would be very curious how what's different, how you were thinking
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00:10:55
about it differently before another, you've been writing it.
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00:10:59
And for many leaders is what do you think is preventing people from actually in,
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00:11:04
because as we know in leaders in general, you get gonna get information, but are
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00:11:09
you going to actually implement it?
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00:11:11
The first one, I think, Rob, you did an article not so
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00:11:13
long ago the adaptation tax.
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00:11:15
I work at it through three levels.
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00:11:18
If you think about the dimension being the first thing, so the red,
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00:11:20
the green, the blue, for example.
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00:11:22
So the dimension says that's the broad.
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00:11:24
That's puts our peg in the ground of where we typically are.
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00:11:27
Then within that, there are different aspects that make up that thing.
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00:11:30
So the two of us in my models, which is a score model, so emotional stability for
Speaker:
00:11:34
example, has got four facets that live underneath that dimension, four aspects.
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00:11:39
Each of those aspects we could score equally high or low on the dimension, but
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00:11:45
any of the four aspects could be making up those numbers to different degrees.
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00:11:48
So the way we express that emotional stability is different.
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00:11:52
So I articulate it like this.
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00:11:54
If you imagine that we are more predominantly objective task oriented.
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00:11:59
Et cetera versus, emotionally attuned, people focused et cetera.
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00:12:04
It doesn't mean the ones that score lower don't have it.
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00:12:07
They just don't access it.
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00:12:09
It's not their natural way to process.
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00:12:11
So within that is the opportunity to grow.
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00:12:14
But we're obviously it's not taking big steps like learning
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00:12:17
maths or learning English.
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00:12:19
It's learning how to calibrate for the challenge ahead.
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00:12:23
For myself personally, to actually go, you know what?
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00:12:25
I'm actually stepping outside of what I'm really wired to do here.
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00:12:29
And it's gonna come at a personal cost.
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00:12:31
So with me, for example, if I'm asked to spend a long time, with routine
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00:12:36
detail oriented types of things.
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00:12:38
I'm switched off.
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00:12:39
I'm demotivated.
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00:12:41
I hear you.
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00:12:41
Okay.
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00:12:41
I can I do it?
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00:12:42
I can do it.
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00:12:42
Do I want to do it?
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00:12:43
No, I don't want to do it.
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00:12:44
So my motivation's already diminished before I go in there.
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00:12:48
My application is, as optimal as I can steal myself to do it.
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00:12:52
And that's coming at a huge cost to stress 'cause I wanna be
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00:12:55
doing something else, efficacy.
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00:12:56
All of these things are being impacted now.
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00:12:59
That's happening.
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00:13:00
So going back to the vision statement, we all agree as a team we've done
Speaker:
00:13:03
our personality profile and we are all in agreement that we respect
Speaker:
00:13:07
each other, we understand each other, and we've agreed to point ourselves
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00:13:11
towards this collective goal, let's say now every day that might change.
Speaker:
00:13:15
The goal might shift, the business might change its expectations.
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00:13:19
Different manager might come in, a new person joins the team.
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00:13:21
All of these things have big impacts on those dynamics and what we agreed to.
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00:13:26
But we have to be careful that we understand to what degree we're exposing
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00:13:32
all of our people to an appropriate amount of tension, stress, outside
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00:13:38
of what they're naturally doing.
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00:13:39
And of course, it would be unreasonable for us all to go, I want my perfect
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00:13:42
job within a team every day.
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00:13:45
It can happen, but it's rare.
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00:13:46
Because sometimes as part of a team, you're gonna have to collaborate.
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00:13:49
Are you gonna have to be asked to speak up?
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00:13:51
You're gonna have, all of these things that, that, that may be really
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00:13:54
challenging for different people.
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00:13:56
They're all incrementally growable, coachable, achievable.
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00:14:00
I talk about modulating our, behaviors, if you like, for want of a better reason.
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00:14:04
So we express our behaviors in a certain way, most naturally, highly assertive.
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00:14:08
More demure highly energetic, more laid back, whatever it might be.
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00:14:12
That's an expression of who we naturally are, or maybe in some
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00:14:16
cases, who we're trying to prove that we are who we're trying to be.
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00:14:19
But anything that's outside of our natural state, there's a
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00:14:22
degree of cost that goes with it.
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00:14:24
If it's only a micro adjustment, it's easily do I can dip in and out.
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00:14:27
If you are an ambivert, if you're right on the cusp of introvert,
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00:14:30
extrovert is a really great example.
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00:14:33
You can dip into a group setting and it not cost you too much energy.
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00:14:36
You spend time on your own and you're not pulling your hair out trying to,
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00:14:40
get amongst the people all the time.
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00:14:41
That's a really simplistic example of it.
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00:14:43
If you think about my model as cutting that into many more aspects than
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00:14:48
a two dimensional sort of matrix.
Speaker:
00:14:50
Each of those things have got an, the introversion extroversion thing.
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00:14:54
To what degree am I, extroverted or introverted?
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00:14:57
So to what level of granularity?
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00:14:59
Because at that point I know that every time we're doing this type of activity,
Speaker:
00:15:04
these people are churning more energy.
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00:15:07
They're burning more personal fuel in order to do what I'm asking them to do.
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00:15:12
And that's the same as the manager.
Speaker:
00:15:13
If I'm using the example that you, Niki, that you raised about the,
Speaker:
00:15:18
your, when you were able to bring your fear down to a degree where your
Speaker:
00:15:22
assertiveness could go up, right?
Speaker:
00:15:24
You became more read in using that language.
Speaker:
00:15:26
It's a great example of, two completely different systems at play there, right?
Speaker:
00:15:30
One's on my model, one's on one system, one's on another system.
Speaker:
00:15:34
But so knowing that which one of those you can need to modulate in order to
Speaker:
00:15:38
get yourself into those zones, it's a great example of you modulating your
Speaker:
00:15:44
expression to get the job done that needs to be done recognizing actually.
Speaker:
00:15:48
Before you had this mastery over your emotional state, it would be coming at
Speaker:
00:15:52
a high cost to have to be that person.
Speaker:
00:15:55
Now that cost is diminished because you've increased your capacity.
Speaker:
00:15:59
So I think all of these things are trainable.
Speaker:
00:16:01
We can't change who we are.
Speaker:
00:16:03
We certainly can't change or try to change who the people are, but we can,
Speaker:
00:16:07
I think, approach it with a degree of confident because we all adapt over time.
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00:16:13
We all grow through challenges.
Speaker:
00:16:14
Yeah.
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00:16:14
We all grow through struggle.
Speaker:
00:16:15
So we're taking a team through a challenge and through a
Speaker:
00:16:17
struggle, and we grow together.
Speaker:
00:16:19
And we intentionally know that we're creating the optimum amount
Speaker:
00:16:24
of tension that's gonna help these people grow through struggle.
Speaker:
00:16:27
I think we're really on the right path when it comes to performance.
Speaker:
00:16:30
Now, you'll have to forgive me.
Speaker:
00:16:31
I've forgotten what questions two and three were.
Speaker:
00:16:33
That's the whole idea also, but I really liked what you especially talk, talked
Speaker:
00:16:37
about incremental steps and calibrating and this, understanding, which I think
Speaker:
00:16:42
as you talked about it, I gonna be more conscious of it with my clients.
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00:16:45
I realize I'm quite conscious of exactly that.
Speaker:
00:16:49
It comes with a cost.
Speaker:
00:16:50
To be something or do something that doesn't really, isn't really
Speaker:
00:16:55
the most natural thing to us.
Speaker:
00:16:56
There is the interesting thing.
Speaker:
00:16:58
It's just an observation is that if it can reframe something like, let's say for
Speaker:
00:17:03
example for me to do admin things when I was leading my them and those things, if
Speaker:
00:17:09
I would be able to frame it in a way that I see how doing this admin work benefits
Speaker:
00:17:15
them, it's easier for me to do it.
Speaker:
00:17:18
I'll have more answers to do it.
Speaker:
00:17:19
Of course, we cannot reframe ourselves out of everything, but, I'll jump a
Speaker:
00:17:23
little bit into, not different topic, but the aspect of implementation.
Speaker:
00:17:27
Because you are writing a book, you probably want people to implement it.
Speaker:
00:17:30
Now five years, over 3000 sessions, I think is one of my biggest observations
Speaker:
00:17:35
of realization is that we have lot of information and insight, but
Speaker:
00:17:40
people are not implementing it.
Speaker:
00:17:42
And there's, of course, I think one of the main reasons is, stress
Speaker:
00:17:46
because how stress impacts the brain as, as you might know, what Rob was
Speaker:
00:17:49
saying about when we are stressed, we literally we don't see people as people.
Speaker:
00:17:53
We see them as objects.
Speaker:
00:17:54
This thing is either helping me to get rid of the problem and stress
Speaker:
00:17:59
this thing is causing more of it.
Speaker:
00:18:01
This thing can be ignored because it doesn't do either.
Speaker:
00:18:04
And like you talked about, self-awareness, curiosity, incremental learning.
Speaker:
00:18:09
When we are stressed, then the bodies and the brain is in a state where we need
Speaker:
00:18:14
to solve a life threatening problem now.
Speaker:
00:18:18
And when we are stressed, let's say we are chased by the lion want to be
Speaker:
00:18:22
thinking, how might I change this?
Speaker:
00:18:24
Or I wonder how I could support chain more, or what's
Speaker:
00:18:27
the small next small change?
Speaker:
00:18:29
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:18:30
And that's I think in general is one of the biggest difficulties in our time
Speaker:
00:18:34
and era that, that we are sitting in Rob, you heard me talking about this.
Speaker:
00:18:38
We are sitting in front of our computer in perfect safety and
Speaker:
00:18:44
yet and then we are stressed.
Speaker:
00:18:46
For example, the reason why it's so difficult for people to take
Speaker:
00:18:49
a break, obviously it's not a technical reason because taking
Speaker:
00:18:51
a break is very easy technically.
Speaker:
00:18:53
But if the brain are in some chronic low level stress state, the moment
Speaker:
00:18:58
where the person tries to leave their desk, they start feel literal, pull from
Speaker:
00:19:03
the body and the brain do not leave.
Speaker:
00:19:05
But stay in the work because there's all these connections
Speaker:
00:19:08
of if I don't do this work well enough, then I might not be liked.
Speaker:
00:19:11
And if I'm not liked, then I might get fired.
Speaker:
00:19:14
If I get fired, I earn money, and I'll just end up dead on the street.
Speaker:
00:19:17
And of course it's very difficult for us to realize that our body and
Speaker:
00:19:21
brain are really thinking that we are in a life or dead situation.
Speaker:
00:19:24
And then we will develop this whole story of I'm lazy or why I have all these
Speaker:
00:19:30
ideas of what I would want to learn.
Speaker:
00:19:32
All these things I know that are really important to do, but
Speaker:
00:19:34
somehow I can't make myself do it.
Speaker:
00:19:36
And that's mainly because people don't recognize what is the stage they are in.
Speaker:
00:19:40
And I think that's one of the main causes, even for leaders, why
Speaker:
00:19:45
they can't implement something.
Speaker:
00:19:47
And then another thing that you mentioned, and I'll start with that, is almost
Speaker:
00:19:51
really unfortunate unwillingness or blind spot to take really small steps.
Speaker:
00:19:56
I see it all the time, especially when clients start with me, like they
Speaker:
00:20:00
want to be this leader who's able to communicate to everybody really clearly,
Speaker:
00:20:04
be calm, be empathetic, be inspiring, however they are here and they have
Speaker:
00:20:11
never even asked a question, what kind of communicator would I want to be?
Speaker:
00:20:15
Then they're frustrated and discouraged because they aren't here.
Speaker:
00:20:19
It would be better for them to focus on, okay, next seven days.
Speaker:
00:20:23
What's a really small improvement?
Speaker:
00:20:25
Maybe I could ask bit more questions.
Speaker:
00:20:28
What questions?
Speaker:
00:20:29
Maybe I can just ask people why something is important.
Speaker:
00:20:32
That's what I will do the next seven days, because that takes a lot of stress away
Speaker:
00:20:36
and it's impossible to focus on something like becoming a better leader because
Speaker:
00:20:41
for the brain, it doesn't need anything.
Speaker:
00:20:43
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:20:43
What do you see just in general or in the context of the psychometric?
Speaker:
00:20:48
Like how can someone help them do, for example, I things from implement
Speaker:
00:20:53
things from your book, for example?
Speaker:
00:20:55
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:20:55
Psychometrics are just a tool, right?
Speaker:
00:20:57
And most of them give you a point on the map.
Speaker:
00:21:00
You are here.
Speaker:
00:21:00
That's useless unless I know where I am in relation to where I want to go.
Speaker:
00:21:05
Okay.
Speaker:
00:21:05
So when the goal is a big one and it's a complex one, then if I'm in the car and I
Speaker:
00:21:10
turn my GPS on and I want to go place I've never been to before, it knows where I am.
Speaker:
00:21:14
But it is gotta work out the best route.
Speaker:
00:21:15
It gives me multiple options.
Speaker:
00:21:16
Do you wanna go the fast way?
Speaker:
00:21:17
Do you wanna go the countryside way?
Speaker:
00:21:19
Whatever it might be.
Speaker:
00:21:20
So I see this as a performance GPS and then along the way you come, the
Speaker:
00:21:24
gps has plotted a route and suddenly there's a roadworks that was unexpected.
Speaker:
00:21:29
And now it's now I'm stuck.
Speaker:
00:21:30
These are like these people that get in the way or a change
Speaker:
00:21:32
process or something like that.
Speaker:
00:21:33
Oh my God, what do I do?
Speaker:
00:21:35
But GPS doesn't know this, hasn't worked this out.
Speaker:
00:21:37
So this is about when it needs to recalibrate.
Speaker:
00:21:39
I'm now here, take me in on a different route to overcome this obstacle.
Speaker:
00:21:42
So I see this as a performance GPS type thing.
Speaker:
00:21:44
It's a navigation tool.
Speaker:
00:21:46
Okay?
Speaker:
00:21:46
And of course that won't give you all the answers, but it helps you just
Speaker:
00:21:50
do more than define where you are.
Speaker:
00:21:52
It's in relation to where you want to go.
Speaker:
00:21:53
So with your client, when I'm listening to you talk about your
Speaker:
00:21:56
clients and they're setting these big, I wanna be a great leader or a
Speaker:
00:21:59
great orator, or whatever it might be.
Speaker:
00:22:01
I think we're always dealing in the gap between the reality, the
Speaker:
00:22:05
situation, and the aspiration.
Speaker:
00:22:07
What do we want and where are we going?
Speaker:
00:22:09
Where are we?
Speaker:
00:22:10
So the leader for me.
Speaker:
00:22:12
We're talking multiple people with multiple perceptions of where
Speaker:
00:22:16
we are and where we're going.
Speaker:
00:22:17
The groups agreed that we are here and we are going there of them.
Speaker:
00:22:20
Their ideal route would be slightly different.
Speaker:
00:22:22
Someone would take the long way, someone would get there as fast as possible.
Speaker:
00:22:25
Someone would get there by gathering as much information as they can go.
Speaker:
00:22:29
All of that's that's real.
Speaker:
00:22:30
Nevertheless, we have to take a step.
Speaker:
00:22:32
We have to go together.
Speaker:
00:22:34
So already got people starting to go.
Speaker:
00:22:37
Oh.
Speaker:
00:22:37
Like it's not quite my ideal route.
Speaker:
00:22:40
It's helpful to know this, right?
Speaker:
00:22:41
That as I'm taking them along this journey, some people at this stage of
Speaker:
00:22:44
the journey are hurting more than others.
Speaker:
00:22:46
It's like going back to my role as a football coach, when you've
Speaker:
00:22:49
got high fast twitch people.
Speaker:
00:22:52
So the speedsters, the real electric pace guys, and you've got the marathon runners.
Speaker:
00:22:56
Sprinters and a marathon runner.
Speaker:
00:22:58
Got completely different makeups in their in their biology.
Speaker:
00:23:02
And if we train them all the same, the marathon runner will
Speaker:
00:23:05
never be the quickest, but you can keep doing sprint training.
Speaker:
00:23:08
And they'll might incrementally get better, but because they're
Speaker:
00:23:10
not so explosive, they're not burning as much fuel.
Speaker:
00:23:14
Whereas if you do a hundred sprints with a sprinter and a hundred sprints with a
Speaker:
00:23:18
marathon runner, the sprinter will win all the time 'cause they're quicker,
Speaker:
00:23:22
but the sprint is burning more fuel.
Speaker:
00:23:24
And the sprinter will break down quicker.
Speaker:
00:23:26
The sprinter will get hamstring tears.
Speaker:
00:23:27
You're overloading a system that doesn't need to be overloaded.
Speaker:
00:23:30
So I think of it like that in terms of the psyche.
Speaker:
00:23:33
We're putting them into situations that they actually don't need too much
Speaker:
00:23:36
of this because too much of it, and they're gonna start breaking down.
Speaker:
00:23:39
They're gonna start getting the little hamstring tears and things like that.
Speaker:
00:23:42
Even one aspect.
Speaker:
00:23:43
If I think about emotional regulation, for example, okay, we talk about, in
Speaker:
00:23:48
terms of self-awareness, we wanna be aware of and regulate our emotions.
Speaker:
00:23:51
We want to help people choose the right emotional expression,
Speaker:
00:23:55
not just the easiest.
Speaker:
00:23:56
So the easiest is often I'm reacting to the situation.
Speaker:
00:23:59
We want 'em to get control of that and choose what emotion.
Speaker:
00:24:02
So in your case, when you need to demonstrate some assertiveness, rather
Speaker:
00:24:07
than suppress it, that's the easy thing.
Speaker:
00:24:09
The hard thing is to actually come out and say it.
Speaker:
00:24:11
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:24:11
We wanna manage our response.
Speaker:
00:24:13
From an emotional awareness point of view, we wanna understand the triggers
Speaker:
00:24:16
or the patterns that make us tick, or the patterns that make us blow up.
Speaker:
00:24:19
Working in a aviation environment where we need to be at our best
Speaker:
00:24:23
when our best is required, but these businesses say we want resilient people.
Speaker:
00:24:27
We're gonna put 'em under match pressure every day from seven in the
Speaker:
00:24:29
morning till four in the afternoon.
Speaker:
00:24:31
And if they survive, great.
Speaker:
00:24:34
There's a high turnover.
Speaker:
00:24:35
So I'm dealing with people who are emotionally and cognitively at breaking
Speaker:
00:24:39
point because they were constantly under pressure to perform, which is unrealistic.
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00:24:44
In the football world, you perform on a Saturday, the rest
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00:24:46
of the time you're recovering.
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00:24:48
Training, learning, data analysis.
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00:24:51
And of course it's not quite the same in business, the
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00:24:54
physical load isn't the same.
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00:24:55
But if we use the analogy of the brain versus the body, it's
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00:24:59
still the same sort of thing.
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00:25:00
So this expectation of resilience, we're talking about the emotional impact.
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00:25:05
If I go home from work stressed, then my body needs time to recover in order
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00:25:12
that I come back in an optimal state the next day to perform at my best.
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00:25:15
So that recalibration that recovery ability needs time.
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00:25:20
So people that have been exposed to a higher degree of stress
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00:25:23
need more time to recover.
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00:25:24
Of course, in the workplace.
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00:25:25
They're all given the same amount of time.
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00:25:27
They're all put under more stress than they need to be.
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00:25:30
So when they come back the next day, they're incrementally starting
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00:25:33
from a slightly lower baseline than they were the day before.
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00:25:37
So over time, you get this burnout.
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00:25:39
Accumulates in the lack of recovery, not in the amount
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00:25:41
of stress we put people under.
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00:25:42
In my opinion, in football, you.
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00:25:45
If you recover well, you can come back and try and be at your best on the next game.
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00:25:49
And the last one is situational calibration, adjusting the intensity
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00:25:53
of emotions to fit the context.
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00:25:56
As a football manager is another example where the team just at halftime, they're
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00:26:01
coming and they just haven't performed to the anywhere near the way that they
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00:26:05
train, the way that you plan for, the way that everyone's agreed that we
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00:26:08
should, and everybody knows it, okay.
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00:26:10
At that point, in terms of that situational calibration, you have to
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00:26:13
be able to adjust the intensity of your response to meet the environment.
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00:26:19
And not just fly off the handle because you're flying off the handle irate
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00:26:23
because my needs are not being met.
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00:26:24
It's like there's a whole group of people there who need the right
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00:26:28
response in the right moment and that right response might be to turn
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00:26:31
the heat right up and blast them.
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00:26:33
And then put an arm around the few that's going have, shaken to their core.
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00:26:37
It's complicated, right?
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00:26:38
So my thoughts are it's not good enough to have a map that tells us where we are
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00:26:44
because that's where you've got 60 page reports sitting in every drawer of every
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00:26:48
manager in the country 'cause they don't know how to implement it on a daily basis.
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00:26:52
I come back, I had a great workshop with the guys from Insights, red,
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00:26:56
green, blue, yellow, which is fantastic.
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00:26:58
We understand each other better.
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00:26:59
We've got our cards and cue cards, and today I'm feeling a bit
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00:27:02
stress, so don't come at me with anything, whatever it might be.
Speaker:
00:27:05
You got some brilliant prompts and things like some great stuff in there, but the
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00:27:09
reality that you are talking about, which is, I've gotta get this thing finished.
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00:27:13
I'm gonna stay back till the 11 at night to get it done.
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00:27:15
I feel guilty if I leave.
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00:27:17
And I need to feel validated by my boss if I don't do it.
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00:27:20
A million things going on.
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00:27:21
This is the reality.
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00:27:22
Yes.
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00:27:22
The expectation is this dream state that we're all heading for.
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00:27:26
Implementation comes with a little bit more insight than where we are.
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00:27:30
It has to say we know we're here.
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00:27:32
That comes with a level of understanding.
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00:27:34
But in order to really have an impact.
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00:27:37
We know, we now know where we're going.
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00:27:39
So if I've got a team of 10 people who've agreed that this is the vision, this is
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00:27:43
the big idea, this is the big challenge.
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00:27:45
We've got 10 different, ideal, optimal approaches to meet that goal.
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00:27:50
But we've gotta do it together.
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00:27:52
And then I see this is where the implementation comes in.
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00:27:55
I might need to lean on Rob for some more, depth and rationale.
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00:27:59
But otherwise, ideas central.
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00:28:01
I'll think this is a great and my biggest failing, by the way, going back
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00:28:03
to, I was in football for a long time.
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00:28:06
I use this a lot because it's the one that really, captures for me
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00:28:10
some, so some of the essence of this.
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00:28:11
So where I've the core of this book comes from in practice I was
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00:28:15
taking people towards a vision they weren't ready to go towards.
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00:28:19
So they were agreeing in the meeting room, in the team meeting, all
Speaker:
00:28:22
the players are like, yes, boss, we're with you, we're going there.
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00:28:25
But under the surface.
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00:28:26
For different reasons.
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00:28:27
'cause they're all different people.
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00:28:28
The further I went down this path, the further away they, they get.
Speaker:
00:28:32
Now, to cut through that.
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00:28:33
If I believe in them more than they believe in themselves, it sounds
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00:28:37
like a really noble thing to do.
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00:28:39
I believe in you guys, you can do, this is my vision.
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00:28:42
I believe that you can do it.
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00:28:44
If I haven't taken the time to actually understand that they don't believe that
Speaker:
00:28:48
they can do it, and why they don't and what they need, then I'm losing trust.
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00:28:53
I'm losing respect.
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00:28:54
Yes.
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00:28:54
And they ain't following.
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00:28:56
So there's some real hard lessons in there like that, that, that have under
Speaker:
00:29:00
underpinned this sort of research and, I suppose my aim is trying to help people
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00:29:04
be better in those moments where where your people need you to help 'cause you
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00:29:08
only need to lead people when they facing challenges they can't meet on their own.
Speaker:
00:29:12
If it's a technical problem that they're qualified to do, you let
Speaker:
00:29:15
'em get on with it and they're happily be at the computers all day.
Speaker:
00:29:17
And maybe not feel stressed about it, but if they're in a collaborative,
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00:29:21
really high level challenge that none of us have tried to accomplish before.
Speaker:
00:29:24
Win the league or sell twice as much as we've ever sold before.
Speaker:
00:29:28
If a new product we've never taken to market it's ooh, we're growing
Speaker:
00:29:31
together here, we're growing in public.
Speaker:
00:29:33
It's a lot of vulnerability required, so it helps to know ourselves, know
Speaker:
00:29:39
each other to some different levels and degrees of, that, that give us
Speaker:
00:29:43
enough things that we can act on.
Speaker:
00:29:44
So I can lean into you more if I know that actually, mate, this is
Speaker:
00:29:48
a real challenge for me, but you can, we work together on this?
Speaker:
00:29:51
Or I've got a situation now.
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00:29:53
I'm working with a company and we've asked to present to a group
Speaker:
00:29:56
in Saudi Arabia and I've been asked to, to put the presentation forward.
Speaker:
00:30:00
I'm really comfortable with presentations.
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00:30:02
But I know there's somebody in the group who's a better subject matter expert, and
Speaker:
00:30:07
in the window that we've got to present, I think you'll be a better lead on it.
Speaker:
00:30:10
So I think those kind of things.
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00:30:12
It just helps.
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00:30:13
So there's three things that really stood out to me that
Speaker:
00:30:16
you seem to talk a lot about.
Speaker:
00:30:17
One is the calibration, and then you didn't use the
Speaker:
00:30:20
following word, but a rhythm.
Speaker:
00:30:23
And then I just briefly rob want to mention what I was hearing and what
Speaker:
00:30:27
insights came to me is in the corporate world, in the business world, the
Speaker:
00:30:33
rhythm, often is of how people work.
Speaker:
00:30:36
It's very in ineffective and just really founded on some industrial era
Speaker:
00:30:41
ideas of how we are productive, but the rhythm is basically, the idea is
Speaker:
00:30:46
that everybody can, and shoot all the time, be able to perform like this.
Speaker:
00:30:51
But every time there's a little bit dip here below, it's people individually
Speaker:
00:30:57
consider that there's something wrong.
Speaker:
00:31:00
There's only one gear and that's been super productive and focused.
Speaker:
00:31:03
Everything else is bad, and so people like go here and then they
Speaker:
00:31:07
start falling, like you said.
Speaker:
00:31:09
That they will actually every day come with little bit less energy,
Speaker:
00:31:13
clarity of mind, while really healthy and actually productive.
Speaker:
00:31:18
Even like a science-based approach to work would be what you talked about.
Speaker:
00:31:22
Calibration, for example, that.
Speaker:
00:31:24
Today, this is the situation, this homicide energy.
Speaker:
00:31:27
These are things that I'm doing like, okay, today, I'm a little bit introvert.
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00:31:31
I need to speak with many people okay.
Speaker:
00:31:33
I know that today I will set my rhythm bit differently.
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00:31:37
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:31:37
And whatever.
Speaker:
00:31:38
And then we then, the valleys, stop being problems.
Speaker:
00:31:42
We understand that I actually do need to rest.
Speaker:
00:31:45
I'm doing it to give myself a little bit of grace, and then in my observation,
Speaker:
00:31:49
then the performance can be like this.
Speaker:
00:31:52
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:31:52
And but again that asks in some way ask for a big change on leaders and companies.
Speaker:
00:31:57
I'm a spokesperson for these types of ideas because I come out of sport.
Speaker:
00:32:01
In sport they call that periodization.
Speaker:
00:32:03
It's intentional energy and restoration management.
Speaker:
00:32:07
Exactly.
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00:32:07
It's factored into the exposure to stress.
Speaker:
00:32:10
We talked about emotional resilience, but if I think about stress tolerance, which
Speaker:
00:32:14
is a big factor in resilience and again, easy to you think about sport and a big
Speaker:
00:32:19
match and 10 minutes to go and you need to score another goal to win the league.
Speaker:
00:32:23
High pressure.
Speaker:
00:32:24
The everything you do is under scrutiny.
Speaker:
00:32:26
You get instant feedback from the crowd, from social media, whether
Speaker:
00:32:29
you're doing a good job or a bad job.
Speaker:
00:32:30
So it's high level of stress, but in the workplace it's no different.
Speaker:
00:32:33
So pressure handling becomes, really important to maintain the right level
Speaker:
00:32:39
under let's call it match pressure.
Speaker:
00:32:41
Then there's recovery capacity, which is managing energy and restoration.
Speaker:
00:32:44
Some people will naturally be happy stepping back and
Speaker:
00:32:47
taking their time, recover.
Speaker:
00:32:49
Work life balance is a natural thing to them, whereas others,
Speaker:
00:32:52
high achievers, more rigid.
Speaker:
00:32:54
Sometimes perfectionists will be putting themselves under increasing amounts of
Speaker:
00:32:59
pressure to get more things done, but then that might also start to come around in
Speaker:
00:33:04
a way that not only is it detrimental to me 'cause I'm overworking, it's damaging
Speaker:
00:33:09
my relationships with other people because now what do they think of me?
Speaker:
00:33:12
I'm not putting as much effort in, and now I'm starting to feel great and then
Speaker:
00:33:15
start some resentment starts to build.
Speaker:
00:33:17
So all of these things are feeding each other all the time.
Speaker:
00:33:20
Then you've got change people's, again, we're talking about
Speaker:
00:33:22
stress tolerance people's.
Speaker:
00:33:24
Ability to adapt, to adjust to changing demands.
Speaker:
00:33:27
Some people like me, happy as Larry, give me multiple things that change and
Speaker:
00:33:32
that living in the chaos I quite enjoy.
Speaker:
00:33:33
I love that.
Speaker:
00:33:34
Giving me something that's fixed and routine every day.
Speaker:
00:33:37
I'm going nuts basically.
Speaker:
00:33:38
Again, it's about knowing the impact of these things on the people that.
Speaker:
00:33:43
You're tasked with managing or leading.
Speaker:
00:33:46
And the last one is personal resource management, as in, efficient
Speaker:
00:33:50
allocation of the finite amount of energy that we've all got.
Speaker:
00:33:53
So when you put those four things together, handling pressure, capacity
Speaker:
00:33:57
to recover ability to adapt and managing internal resources, the
Speaker:
00:34:02
answer is in there and we all have it.
Speaker:
00:34:04
But because businesses, we say businesses, it's people at the top of businesses,
Speaker:
00:34:09
but the nature of the pursuit of the goal seems to outweigh, for all we have
Speaker:
00:34:13
mental health practitioners on site now.
Speaker:
00:34:16
Which sounds like a great thing in theory, and it is because they're there
Speaker:
00:34:19
to help the people, but they're there to help 'em because we've created a
Speaker:
00:34:22
problem, which is we're putting people under extraordinary level of demand
Speaker:
00:34:26
that they're not really built for.
Speaker:
00:34:28
There's an optimal amount of pressure that will make them motivated and perform.
Speaker:
00:34:32
They need the optimal amount of recovery and restoration so they
Speaker:
00:34:36
can bounce back and be ready to perform again at the top level.
Speaker:
00:34:39
If in the state of the, ever changing demands and speed of change,
Speaker:
00:34:44
we need to understand that some people are predisposed to enjoying
Speaker:
00:34:47
that and some people are not.
Speaker:
00:34:48
So the stress levels that the stress tolerance is different for
Speaker:
00:34:51
everybody in a changing environment.
Speaker:
00:34:53
And then it's helping, it's teaching people to, manage their own resources.
Speaker:
00:34:58
Some people may need to go to for a run to recharge after work.
Speaker:
00:35:02
Some people might need a massage, some people might need to turn the lights
Speaker:
00:35:05
off and meditate, whatever it might be.
Speaker:
00:35:07
Trying to learn about that for ourselves and for each other so that we know.
Speaker:
00:35:11
We talk about this increasing our capacity.
Speaker:
00:35:14
For stress tolerance.
Speaker:
00:35:16
'cause that's growth, right?
Speaker:
00:35:16
We, if we wanna perform better, one aspect of that might be, I'm now
Speaker:
00:35:20
more able to handle more stress in a way that's manageable and effective.
Speaker:
00:35:25
I'm now performing better.
Speaker:
00:35:26
I'm pushing those boundaries, rather than go under, rather than burn out.
Speaker:
00:35:30
I've got all these things intentionally calibrated to optimize
Speaker:
00:35:34
the people that I'm working with.
Speaker:
00:35:35
At the end of the day, the best teams typically win the league are the ones
Speaker:
00:35:39
that have kept their best players on the pitch for most of the season.
Speaker:
00:35:41
The teams that get lots of injuries and struggle to just don't keep up.
Speaker:
00:35:45
So we need our best performers on the pitch in the best condition to perform.
Speaker:
00:35:50
Without these types of things we get burnout, we get stressed, we
Speaker:
00:35:53
get illness, we get mental health.
Speaker:
00:35:55
If I was to condense our conversation or especially what I heard from you Tony, if
Speaker:
00:36:00
I was to condense what you said, almost as this cycle or process that helps us
Speaker:
00:36:06
to perform the best way and to be healthy and feel good, is first there's like
Speaker:
00:36:10
awareness of who we are, who others are and what's the situation, which then leads
Speaker:
00:36:16
to we are actually in standing in reality.
Speaker:
00:36:18
Then as we know where we're standing, we calibrate.
Speaker:
00:36:22
And then after you use the word optimize, so like awareness of the situation,
Speaker:
00:36:26
actually seeing where we are standing, then calibrating, making decisions
Speaker:
00:36:31
accordingly, and that leads to growth.
Speaker:
00:36:34
And then opposite of that is what you mentioned in the beginning
Speaker:
00:36:37
would be something like flying.
Speaker:
00:36:39
Flying as fast as we can, as long as we can just fix us.
Speaker:
00:36:45
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:36:45
Hoping we don't hit anything.
Speaker:
00:36:46
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:36:47
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:36:47
Yes.
Speaker:
00:36:48
Hoping we'll land at some point to, yeah.
Speaker:
00:36:50
Rob, what did you pull from our conversation?
Speaker:
00:36:53
I found it very interesting.
Speaker:
00:36:54
The key thing for me is there was all that you picked up on.
Speaker:
00:36:58
The way I frame it, I like to scatter ideas.
Speaker:
00:37:00
And what I see is a spectrum.
Speaker:
00:37:02
The opening frame is you're starting from a position of stress because
Speaker:
00:37:06
50 people is like Dunbar's numbers, everything is too much for people.
Speaker:
00:37:12
And so we're starting from, and I think that's the old industrial model.
Speaker:
00:37:16
The industrial model is that we just keep the line going.
Speaker:
00:37:20
It doesn't matter about people and what they're doing is
Speaker:
00:37:22
treating people as machines.
Speaker:
00:37:24
The modern way of where we need to get to is I think we need to treat people
Speaker:
00:37:28
like race horses, like the champion racehorse that you look after, you
Speaker:
00:37:31
give them the time to recover you make sure they're in the best position.
Speaker:
00:37:35
Along this spectrum I see, Tony, you've developed a way that can work
Speaker:
00:37:39
with 50 people because you can go through the psychometrics and you
Speaker:
00:37:42
can have a good sense of heuristics of how people are gonna work.
Speaker:
00:37:46
And Niki, I would've liked to have got a little bit more into your model, 'cause
Speaker:
00:37:50
I think we all have a model and your model is very much starting from inside.
Speaker:
00:37:54
What does that meditation and peace look like and how do you get that tranquility?
Speaker:
00:37:59
And then I think I'm a bit on the middle, so I think we all
Speaker:
00:38:01
have a model of how people work.
Speaker:
00:38:03
It would be really interesting to compare and contrast them.
Speaker:
00:38:06
Next one, whenever you're arrange it.
Speaker:
00:38:08
Me too.
Speaker:
00:38:08
Maybe we'll set that up and we'll go through and we'll work through
Speaker:
00:38:11
that model from the inside out and then from the outside in.
Speaker:
00:38:15
Psychometric, you're looking at behaviors, whereas I know your journey has been
Speaker:
00:38:18
very much looking inside yourself.
Speaker:
00:38:20
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:38:20
And agreeing that both our needed.
Speaker:
00:38:22
If there's only internal change, nothing happens outside, then what's the point?
Speaker:
00:38:26
And same way, can we observe and live in the world in a way that it actually
Speaker:
00:38:31
helps us to gain more insights and so on.
Speaker:
00:38:33
Tony, I really like talking with you, learn things from you that I
Speaker:
00:38:36
know that I already want to pay a bit more attention with clients and
Speaker:
00:38:40
looking forward to the next one.
Speaker:
00:38:42
Thank you, Niki.
Speaker:
00:38:42
It was fantastic to meet you.
Speaker:
00:38:43
I'm really keen to explore more about I have some questions for you next time.
