cott Lee 0:01
Greetings friends and colleagues. Welcome to the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast, the professional educators thought partner, a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. I am Scott Lee. In this episode we discuss a school based initiatives supporting the mental health needs of students. Metro Nashville Public Schools in Tennessee operates the Trauma Informed Schools program with a variety of supports and programs to mitigate the effects of trauma. Today we discuss this initiative with Ellen Montgomery. Listeners may remember Ellen from Episode 24 in 2021, when she and her colleague Laura Fitz, discussed how they implemented restorative practices within their classrooms. Ellen is now a trauma informed specialist with Metro Nashville Public Schools. Before this position, she taught high school Spanish and facilitated a student led restorative practice team for five years. During her time as an educator, she has been fortunate to encounter the humanizing work of trauma informed practices, and restorative practices. Once she started personally embracing this humanizing work in her pedagogy and interactions with students and teachers, while also unlearning a lot of the harmful beliefs and biases, she saw a significant positive shift in herself, her classroom environment, and her students that made her want to be part of this mind shift in education. We start a conversation discussing the specifics of her new role. Welcome back to the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast. Ellen, thank you for joining us again.
Ellen Montgomery 1:55
Thanks for having me. I'm glad.
Scott Lee 1:57
First off, you've got a new role in Metro Nashville schools since the last time we spoke, can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing now and what that entails?
Ellen Montgomery 2:08
Absolutely. So currently, I'm a trauma informed specialist for Metro Nashville Public Schools, I have three clusters, which is basically just three large areas of Davidson County that I cover, with multiple schools in each one. But before this position, for folks who maybe haven't heard the last episode, I did teach high school Spanish, and facilitated a student led restorative practice team for the last five years. So that actually that background is what led me to the role I am now I'm not a teacher who wanted to leave teaching, I still really miss the classroom and miss my students. But because of what I was working in my classroom, and encountering humanizing work of trauma informed practices, restorative practices, that's actually what led me to this role, just because I saw such a positive significant shift in myself in my classroom environment and my students. And so it made me want to really help be a part of that mindset, philosophy shift in education full time, and not just something that I did on the side. So yeah, I'm currently a trauma informed specialist under the amazing Dr. Mary Crnobori, who leads our trauma informed schools team, we support implementation of trauma informed work and practices at the district levels, this school wide level and at the classroom level. So that could look like doing trainings that could look like one on one support with staff, with with students in terms of collaborative referrals. Maybe the student who's had significant stress trauma in their life is having some trouble engaging in the classroom. I am over handle with for the district, which are you familiar with Handle with Care,
Scott Lee 3:52
Handled with Care is one of the crisis intervention programs, I believe, I've never used Handle with care. I've used Therapeutic Crisis Intervention and CPI as well. So yeah, it's similar to those I assume,
Ellen Montgomery 4:05
it's, it's similar. We also, in part with those crisis interventions, we partner with the Metro Nashville police department to identify students in the district who have been either witnesses or victims of crime in that county. And we don't get really any details about what happened. But we send a notification to the administrators at the school saying, basically handle this child with care, they've either been a witness or a victim to crime. And so just kind of allowing that school to have a heads up and say, you know, this child maybe is having a rough time, they may exhibit behavior that, you know, aligns with that they may not but either way, this is helpful information for you to be able to support them better. So, we do that. We also do some consulting work with schoolwide in terms of kind of this my inset shift and helping, like integrate trauma informed work into not just like activities and teachers does, but Right, like looking at holistically at the school level, like policies, practices, things like that. And this year, we actually rolled out advocacy centers. So it's the first year that we've done this, and we're piling it. But we're also piling it in all of our elementary schools and Nashville Public Schools. And we have over 70 of them. And so our team supports the coaches that run those centers, which are basically spaces for emotional regulation, to teach students and sometimes both skills to help them regulate themselves and identify emotions, and really help them to gain skills to become more successful in the classroom, when, you know, they might be triggered by, you know, a trauma that they've experienced in their past, just really helping to get into the schools as a literal space for this important work to happen. And hopefully, that can like start to shift in a lot of schools to make sure that that, you know, spreads into classrooms as well.
Scott Lee 6:10
I know this goes a little bit away from what we mentioned that we might talk about, but a lot of people are familiar with the concept of social emotional learning, but maybe not as familiar with trauma informed care or trauma informed approaches to learning. How are they different? And maybe how are they similar? You know, for folks that may have heard of trauma informed, but not really are familiar with what that really means?
Ellen Montgomery 6:40
Yeah, that's a great question. I think SEL is kind of an umbrella term, at least in my experience that I've heard a lot of people use to refer to essentially just like looking at kids holistically, and not just through this academic lens. And that's very helpful, and important and useful. And I really wish there was some sort of visual to show how SEL and trauma informed practices and restorative practices really all are intertwined and integrate, because there really are so many similarities between them. And they're all just so humanizing to all of the people involved into the environment that we are in for education. But I think that, for me, trauma informed practices is the science that helps to justify and really show the value and importance of restorative practices, and why those should be grounded in equity. I think that it's oftentimes really just kind of like people really oversimplify it to just being kind to students, and, you know, that sort of thing. But really, there's so much science and research that trauma informed education brings. And I think that sometimes that people can get into the weeds about some of that stuff and kind of tune out because it can be kind of annoying to listen to. But I think if it is brought to you in a way that's engaging for me, it really shifted who I am as a person, just because you recognize the way that the brain works. And that behavior oftentimes is not a choice that people are making, it's the way that their brain has created these pathways, and especially for students whose brains are not as developed as ours are, and just recognizing how oftentimes, it's easy for our brain to just notice patterns and binaries. And good and bad as people are good and bad behaviors and trauma informed practices really breaks that down completely. And recognizing that there is not a good and bad binary. We're all people we've all had life experiences that have led to people having the behaviors they have now. And obviously there are some behaviors that are harmful. But that's kind of where I integrate restorative practices into it and saying, like, there's a better way forward in education than just aiming for control and compliance. And there can really be a lot of joy and beauty in the classroom. And kids really enjoying the learning process in a really respectful trusting community. If you integrate these two so I think there's there's a lot of differences and there's a lot of similarities. But for me trauma informed education, really the psychology behind how the brain works, really helps to humanize a lot of this what's hard about our jobs and I think that that is really a thing that that is missing in education right now. We just to survive it for everyone involved teachers and students. That's the piece that we cut out because we think if we just do it logically and put through, we'll get through it easier, quicker, faster, whatever. And that's, that's just not the case.
Scott Lee 10:06
It is interesting, because when you're talking about being logical and just forcing your way through some work I've done with, with teachers, one of the things that I found is that the teachers that are using restorative practices more often are actually finding more academic time. And the same thing with the trauma focused interventions as well. Too many times, some teachers are thinking, oh, gosh, that, that's just that'll take too much time. It'll be too difficult, whatever. And then once you get in the habit of doing that, you find that things work very differently in your classroom, and you find more academic time. So absolutely. What kind of systems or systems of support at the school level is needed. And then we also want to talk a little bit more about what a trauma informed classroom looks like, in a minute, at the school level, what needs to happen to make that environment the trauma informed practice environment possible?
Ellen Montgomery 11:08
That's a great question. And I think the school wide and the classroom answer it, from my perspective is going to be very similar, because I think, as the adults in that space, we're the ones as you know, the social discipline window restorative practices, talks about like, we're the ones that control that environment, we're the ones that have the agency over that space, students obviously have power and have a voice, but we're the ones who create the policies, the procedures, you know, we're the ones who facilitate the discussion, the education of learning everything. And so really, a lot of it comes down to us as people. And especially when you're thinking about trauma informed practices, restorative practices, these healing centered humanizing approaches to education, and interacting with other people, we have to also like recognize our own stuff that we maybe need to work through in and realize that, you know, teaching is stressful, and oftentimes, it brings up from triggers. It's very relational. And if we are not able to de escalate and regulate ourselves, when we're interacting with students that maybe are pushing all of our buttons at one time, then that's, that's not going to go well, we know that teachers regulation level are the greatest determinant in the classroom for the students regulation level, and how well that that's going to go and so we're people we've experienced stress and trauma, but we're if we're not self aware, if we're not being introspective, and really working on ourselves and understanding who we are and how that shows up in the classroom, both for the good, the neutral, the bad, then we're not really doing our part. And so I think that's the same school wide, it's the same for teachers, it's the same for admin, we have to be willing to own ourselves and how, because we can't just shut the human side off of us. And we go to work. And I know a lot of people think they can and they try to, but through implicit bias through decision making, through what student's behavior bothers you, and what doesn't, how you react to that behavior, or respond to it. The discipline or the punishment that comes with those things really are so intertwined with your own lived experience and the biases you have. And so, I think that I'm learning a lot from Dr. Shawn Ginwright. Right now he's the author of Four Pivots. And he just really talks a lot about that piece of really needing to be self aware. And he has, quote, "social change is deeply connected to our own healing, reflection and well being", and really talks about how those Four Pivots, like if we're not really looking inward and working on the stuff that's, you know, hard for us, and that we need to address, it's really hard to make change anywhere else at the school wide level at the classroom level. So yeah, I think it's kind of meta, right? Like, you have to do this work with yourself, then you have to do it with your colleagues and your administration as as faculty and staff. And once you've experienced it personally, and you've really started to build those connections with your colleagues building that school culture, only then really, does it become meaningful in your classroom, like once you personally embraced it as a person and not just as like a activity that I'm going to throw into my schedule that maybe won't have the same impact because you're not personally valuing it.
Scott Lee 14:37
I'm just curious myself, do you get a lot of pushback from teachers and administrators, when you first come into school and say, Hey, we're gonna talk about talk about trauma, talk about trauma informed learning. Do you get a lot of pushback? If so, what kind of pushback do you get and how do you overcome that?
Ellen Montgomery 14:57
That's a great question. I think It's interesting, because we don't have a lot of folks for a very large district that are doing what we're doing. And so I think that the pushback that we get is just people not asking for our support. It's a very passive pushback. So we to go in to do consulting to do trainings, people have to ask for that. Right. So there's already some level of self awareness now, are they doing it for the appearance factor, right? Or are they doing it because they personally value it? Who knows? But at least we have a foot in the door? But yeah, I mean, when I was teaching, and still like advocating for these things, as a teacher, I would get pushback from other folks all the time about how this was like, you know, essentially coddling students or letting them get away with things or you know, like, well, we didn't do this when I was younger. And so like, I turned out fine, that sort of attitude. And that can be that can be hard. And so there's definitely like, you can see the mindset shift that needs to occur and a lot of spaces. But I mean, there's trade schools that I went into kind of bracing for impact before a training, because you hear things about schools, you know, and so I went in, kind of on guard, but they were really receptive. And so it was really encouraging to me to show like, if this training is done in the right ways, I'm still learning those ways. But people, even people who seem to be antagonistic, at first, like really can embrace this because it's not only humanizing for the students. That's what's so great about it is that it helps us humanize ourselves. And realize the system that we're teaching in is not trauma informed for us as people. And so if we're doing trauma informed work, and this is something I'm learning from Alex [Shevrin] Venet, to who I really admire and respect, proactively advocating for trauma informed practices to happen means like, pol-, policy change and system change that makes it less traumatizing for teachers to work in this environment, but also less traumatizing for students. I mean, right now we're in testing season, you know, and that's extremely hard and traumatizing for many students, not only those with disabilities, but those who have been in a pandemic for the past however many years and
Scott Lee 17:18
then for teachers as well,
Ellen Montgomery 17:19
right. Totally.
Scott Lee 17:21
You kind of hinted at the issues around are some of the issues around implicit bias, right, you know, right, then what is, what are you bringing to the table? What am I afraid of? You know, in this discussion, that sort of thing, too. I guess that's what implicit bias is, it is the elephant in the room a lot of times.
Ellen Montgomery 17:41
Yeah, but and I think that that's something that I'm really hoping to bring to our team is not make it really explicitly talk about implicit bias. And we, we are partnering with the DEI [diversity, equity and inclusion] team department at MNPS, to really create trainings specifically around that. So I just worked with a colleague, Melissa Gordon, and Shelby, Mocherman to create a training about implicit bias and healing centered practices, and really, to talk with educators about that intersection, because our decision making is coming oftentimes out of that, you know, when we're reacting to hard behaviors coming out of that subconscious space, that implicit bias lives in our mind. And that obviously has extremely negative impacts for students, especially, you know, in a disparate way in terms of race and disability, gender, things like that. And so we have to make sure that the work that we're doing is not only just adding on a piece of equity or bias at the end to what we're talking about, but really grounding it in equity. And that's a foundation that we're building off of. And so, and that's also something that I'm really soaking up everything from Alex Venet on as well. Her book, Equity Centered Trauma Informed Education is really helping me to understand how to do that well. And what those things are that schools that educators can do in terms of not only reacting or responding to trauma, or in thinking that, Oh, the trauma is in the community and the kids are bringing that trauma in from the community. But no, it's like what we talked about a second ago, like schools can sometimes cause trauma, they can perpetuate trauma, they can exacerbate trauma and really proactively pushing up against that and advocating for policy change for students in terms of you know, racist policies, homophobic transphobic, all those bills going through right now, that sort of thing. And that is trauma that happens inside the system, the education system inside our schools, and we are not being truly trauma informed if we're not not only just responding to the trauma that's happening, you know, in our kids lives and that they're bringing in with them but proactively trying to prevent as much of that at the hand of the school system.
Scott Lee 19:58
So easy sometimes do Just ignore certain things. And even if we don't address something, it's still there and the kid and not addressing it perpetuates it as well. So there's a lot of pieces to how that can affect a kid or kids. Right? Tell us about a school or classroom, whatever you want to do a situation that you've been involved with, and the work that you're doing now, where you have seen success, what does that success look like? And what happens? Yeah, there's
Ellen Montgomery 20:33
a couple of schools that are coming to mind right now, I think a lot of what I'm seeing in our advocacy centers, again, that are in all of our elementary schools, starting this year, as a space of emotional regulation, I've just seen so much life changing work happening there. And I've, I've heard of so many stories, where it's people that I know through other ways of my life, recognizing the use of advocacy centers, when their kid has a need and goes to them hearing about that is really special. But I think I'm I'm most proud of the ways that our coaches are really embracing the equity piece of trauma informed practices. And I have so many coaches that are really pushing up against some really ingrained racist policies and practices at their school and are being really bold and challenging those but also providing a space for folks of, you know, whether they're students or adults, whoever needs a space to help regulate their emotions is, is really helpful, but I am really proud of, of how they're doing that. And I think also the ways that we partner with other providers, like social workers, and counselors and going into schools, I went to a school this past week, where these two students, siblings, actually were, have experienced a lot of trauma in their life and are having a really hard time engaging in school and having behaviors that are really challenging for the adults in that building. And it was really amazing to see everyone just really supporting them and the family and just recognizing the humanity and every person involved and really finding ways to support these students, we're already seeing a lot of positive growth in these students. But it's, it's just meaningful to see that relationship grow. And I think that that, to me is the biggest, encouraging it's it's oftentimes hard to measure relationships. And it's hard to like talk about that, because sometimes people don't really understand the value in that. But we know through the research of trauma informed practices and psychology that five safe, stable, nurturing relationships and environments is what takes toxic stress, and turns it into tolerable stress. And so it's huge when you see students who are having trouble in school, having trouble engaging, getting pushed out, really start to form meaningful, respectful trust and attachments, relationships with adults in their lives. And I think that watching that play out firsthand in our advocacy centers, and just really with a lot of the adults in schools that we partner with, it's just really encouraging to me. And you can really see the impact that it's having in so many students lives across our district.
Scott Lee 23:34
That sounds wonderful. And the work that you are doing just sounds amazing. We'll put some information out there as well to share with people once again, Ellen, want to thank you for joining us today on the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast. And best of luck as you continue this work. I know it is rewarding and I know it is also difficult.
Ellen Montgomery 23:59
Thank you. It's great to talk to you again. Appreciate it.
Scott Lee 24:04
For more information about the programs and people that Ellen has mentioned in this podcast, please visit our website thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com, where we will have links for more information about our discussion. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is brought to you as a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. If you'd like to learn more about how we help schools and youth organizations, embed social emotional learning within their cultures, and implement strength based restorative interventions, please visit our website www.oncoursesolutions.net. Also, if you're interested in more about resilience, science, and trauma informed learning, please consider attending the Reclaiming Youth Seminars in the summer of 2022 at Augustana University in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, USA. For more information, please check their website at reclaimingyouth.org. This has been episode six of the spring 2022 season. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please tell your friends and colleagues about it either in person or using social media. We also greatly appreciate positive reviews on the podcast app you use. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is hosted and produced by R. Scott Lee, who retains copyright. We encourage diverse opinions however, opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of producer, partners, or underwriters. Guests are never compensated for appearance, nor do guests pay to appear. Transcripts are available following podcast publication at our website, thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com. Sponsorship opportunities or other inquiries may be made on the "Contact Us" page at our website thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com. Please follow the thoughtful Teacher Podcast on Twitter @Drrscottlee, and on facebook at facebook.com Thoughtful Teacher Podcast
Greetings friends and colleagues. Welcome to the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast, the professional educators thought partner, a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. I am Scott Lee. In this episode we discuss a school based initiatives supporting the mental health needs of students. Metro Nashville Public Schools in Tennessee operates the Trauma Informed Schools program with a variety of supports and programs to mitigate the effects of trauma. Today we discuss this initiative with Ellen Montgomery. Listeners may remember Ellen from Episode 24 in 2021, when she and her colleague Laura Fitz, discussed how they implemented restorative practices within their classrooms. Ellen is now a trauma informed specialist with Metro Nashville Public Schools. Before this position, she taught high school Spanish and facilitated a student led restorative practice team for five years. During her time as an educator, she has been fortunate to encounter the humanizing work of trauma informed practices, and restorative practices. Once she started personally embracing this humanizing work in her pedagogy and interactions with students and teachers, while also unlearning a lot of the harmful beliefs and biases, she saw a significant positive shift in herself, her classroom environment, and her students that made her want to be part of this mind shift in education. We start a conversation discussing the specifics of her new role. Welcome back to the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast. Ellen, thank you for joining us again.
Ellen Montgomery 1:55
Thanks for having me. I'm glad.
Scott Lee 1:57
First off, you've got a new role in Metro Nashville schools since the last time we spoke, can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing now and what that entails?
Ellen Montgomery 2:08
Absolutely. So currently, I'm a trauma informed specialist for Metro Nashville Public Schools, I have three clusters, which is basically just three large areas of Davidson County that I cover, with multiple schools in each one. But before this position, for folks who maybe haven't heard the last episode, I did teach high school Spanish, and facilitated a student led restorative practice team for the last five years. So that actually that background is what led me to the role I am now I'm not a teacher who wanted to leave teaching, I still really miss the classroom and miss my students. But because of what I was working in my classroom, and encountering humanizing work of trauma informed practices, restorative practices, that's actually what led me to this role, just because I saw such a positive significant shift in myself in my classroom environment and my students. And so it made me want to really help be a part of that mindset, philosophy shift in education full time, and not just something that I did on the side. So yeah, I'm currently a trauma informed specialist under the amazing Dr. Mary Crnobori, who leads our trauma informed schools team, we support implementation of trauma informed work and practices at the district levels, this school wide level and at the classroom level. So that could look like doing trainings that could look like one on one support with staff, with with students in terms of collaborative referrals. Maybe the student who's had significant stress trauma in their life is having some trouble engaging in the classroom. I am over handle with for the district, which are you familiar with Handle with Care,
Scott Lee 3:52
Handled with Care is one of the crisis intervention programs, I believe, I've never used Handle with care. I've used Therapeutic Crisis Intervention and CPI as well. So yeah, it's similar to those I assume,
Ellen Montgomery 4:05
it's, it's similar. We also, in part with those crisis interventions, we partner with the Metro Nashville police department to identify students in the district who have been either witnesses or victims of crime in that county. And we don't get really any details about what happened. But we send a notification to the administrators at the school saying, basically handle this child with care, they've either been a witness or a victim to crime. And so just kind of allowing that school to have a heads up and say, you know, this child maybe is having a rough time, they may exhibit behavior that, you know, aligns with that they may not but either way, this is helpful information for you to be able to support them better. So, we do that. We also do some consulting work with schoolwide in terms of kind of this my inset shift and helping, like integrate trauma informed work into not just like activities and teachers does, but Right, like looking at holistically at the school level, like policies, practices, things like that. And this year, we actually rolled out advocacy centers. So it's the first year that we've done this, and we're piling it. But we're also piling it in all of our elementary schools and Nashville Public Schools. And we have over 70 of them. And so our team supports the coaches that run those centers, which are basically spaces for emotional regulation, to teach students and sometimes both skills to help them regulate themselves and identify emotions, and really help them to gain skills to become more successful in the classroom, when, you know, they might be triggered by, you know, a trauma that they've experienced in their past, just really helping to get into the schools as a literal space for this important work to happen. And hopefully, that can like start to shift in a lot of schools to make sure that that, you know, spreads into classrooms as well.
Scott Lee 6:10
I know this goes a little bit away from what we mentioned that we might talk about, but a lot of people are familiar with the concept of social emotional learning, but maybe not as familiar with trauma informed care or trauma informed approaches to learning. How are they different? And maybe how are they similar? You know, for folks that may have heard of trauma informed, but not really are familiar with what that really means?
Ellen Montgomery 6:40
Yeah, that's a great question. I think SEL is kind of an umbrella term, at least in my experience that I've heard a lot of people use to refer to essentially just like looking at kids holistically, and not just through this academic lens. And that's very helpful, and important and useful. And I really wish there was some sort of visual to show how SEL and trauma informed practices and restorative practices really all are intertwined and integrate, because there really are so many similarities between them. And they're all just so humanizing to all of the people involved into the environment that we are in for education. But I think that, for me, trauma informed practices is the science that helps to justify and really show the value and importance of restorative practices, and why those should be grounded in equity. I think that it's oftentimes really just kind of like people really oversimplify it to just being kind to students, and, you know, that sort of thing. But really, there's so much science and research that trauma informed education brings. And I think that sometimes that people can get into the weeds about some of that stuff and kind of tune out because it can be kind of annoying to listen to. But I think if it is brought to you in a way that's engaging for me, it really shifted who I am as a person, just because you recognize the way that the brain works. And that behavior oftentimes is not a choice that people are making, it's the way that their brain has created these pathways, and especially for students whose brains are not as developed as ours are, and just recognizing how oftentimes, it's easy for our brain to just notice patterns and binaries. And good and bad as people are good and bad behaviors and trauma informed practices really breaks that down completely. And recognizing that there is not a good and bad binary. We're all people we've all had life experiences that have led to people having the behaviors they have now. And obviously there are some behaviors that are harmful. But that's kind of where I integrate restorative practices into it and saying, like, there's a better way forward in education than just aiming for control and compliance. And there can really be a lot of joy and beauty in the classroom. And kids really enjoying the learning process in a really respectful trusting community. If you integrate these two so I think there's there's a lot of differences and there's a lot of similarities. But for me trauma informed education, really the psychology behind how the brain works, really helps to humanize a lot of this what's hard about our jobs and I think that that is really a thing that that is missing in education right now. We just to survive it for everyone involved teachers and students. That's the piece that we cut out because we think if we just do it logically and put through, we'll get through it easier, quicker, faster, whatever. And that's, that's just not the case.
Scott Lee 10:06
It is interesting, because when you're talking about being logical and just forcing your way through some work I've done with, with teachers, one of the things that I found is that the teachers that are using restorative practices more often are actually finding more academic time. And the same thing with the trauma focused interventions as well. Too many times, some teachers are thinking, oh, gosh, that, that's just that'll take too much time. It'll be too difficult, whatever. And then once you get in the habit of doing that, you find that things work very differently in your classroom, and you find more academic time. So absolutely. What kind of systems or systems of support at the school level is needed. And then we also want to talk a little bit more about what a trauma informed classroom looks like, in a minute, at the school level, what needs to happen to make that environment the trauma informed practice environment possible?
Ellen Montgomery 11:08
That's a great question. And I think the school wide and the classroom answer it, from my perspective is going to be very similar, because I think, as the adults in that space, we're the ones as you know, the social discipline window restorative practices, talks about like, we're the ones that control that environment, we're the ones that have the agency over that space, students obviously have power and have a voice, but we're the ones who create the policies, the procedures, you know, we're the ones who facilitate the discussion, the education of learning everything. And so really, a lot of it comes down to us as people. And especially when you're thinking about trauma informed practices, restorative practices, these healing centered humanizing approaches to education, and interacting with other people, we have to also like recognize our own stuff that we maybe need to work through in and realize that, you know, teaching is stressful, and oftentimes, it brings up from triggers. It's very relational. And if we are not able to de escalate and regulate ourselves, when we're interacting with students that maybe are pushing all of our buttons at one time, then that's, that's not going to go well, we know that teachers regulation level are the greatest determinant in the classroom for the students regulation level, and how well that that's going to go and so we're people we've experienced stress and trauma, but we're if we're not self aware, if we're not being introspective, and really working on ourselves and understanding who we are and how that shows up in the classroom, both for the good, the neutral, the bad, then we're not really doing our part. And so I think that's the same school wide, it's the same for teachers, it's the same for admin, we have to be willing to own ourselves and how, because we can't just shut the human side off of us. And we go to work. And I know a lot of people think they can and they try to, but through implicit bias through decision making, through what student's behavior bothers you, and what doesn't, how you react to that behavior, or respond to it. The discipline or the punishment that comes with those things really are so intertwined with your own lived experience and the biases you have. And so, I think that I'm learning a lot from Dr. Shawn Ginwright. Right now he's the author of Four Pivots. And he just really talks a lot about that piece of really needing to be self aware. And he has, quote, "social change is deeply connected to our own healing, reflection and well being", and really talks about how those Four Pivots, like if we're not really looking inward and working on the stuff that's, you know, hard for us, and that we need to address, it's really hard to make change anywhere else at the school wide level at the classroom level. So yeah, I think it's kind of meta, right? Like, you have to do this work with yourself, then you have to do it with your colleagues and your administration as as faculty and staff. And once you've experienced it personally, and you've really started to build those connections with your colleagues building that school culture, only then really, does it become meaningful in your classroom, like once you personally embraced it as a person and not just as like a activity that I'm going to throw into my schedule that maybe won't have the same impact because you're not personally valuing it.
Scott Lee 14:37
I'm just curious myself, do you get a lot of pushback from teachers and administrators, when you first come into school and say, Hey, we're gonna talk about talk about trauma, talk about trauma informed learning. Do you get a lot of pushback? If so, what kind of pushback do you get and how do you overcome that?
Ellen Montgomery 14:57
That's a great question. I think It's interesting, because we don't have a lot of folks for a very large district that are doing what we're doing. And so I think that the pushback that we get is just people not asking for our support. It's a very passive pushback. So we to go in to do consulting to do trainings, people have to ask for that. Right. So there's already some level of self awareness now, are they doing it for the appearance factor, right? Or are they doing it because they personally value it? Who knows? But at least we have a foot in the door? But yeah, I mean, when I was teaching, and still like advocating for these things, as a teacher, I would get pushback from other folks all the time about how this was like, you know, essentially coddling students or letting them get away with things or you know, like, well, we didn't do this when I was younger. And so like, I turned out fine, that sort of attitude. And that can be that can be hard. And so there's definitely like, you can see the mindset shift that needs to occur and a lot of spaces. But I mean, there's trade schools that I went into kind of bracing for impact before a training, because you hear things about schools, you know, and so I went in, kind of on guard, but they were really receptive. And so it was really encouraging to me to show like, if this training is done in the right ways, I'm still learning those ways. But people, even people who seem to be antagonistic, at first, like really can embrace this because it's not only humanizing for the students. That's what's so great about it is that it helps us humanize ourselves. And realize the system that we're teaching in is not trauma informed for us as people. And so if we're doing trauma informed work, and this is something I'm learning from Alex [Shevrin] Venet, to who I really admire and respect, proactively advocating for trauma informed practices to happen means like, pol-, policy change and system change that makes it less traumatizing for teachers to work in this environment, but also less traumatizing for students. I mean, right now we're in testing season, you know, and that's extremely hard and traumatizing for many students, not only those with disabilities, but those who have been in a pandemic for the past however many years and
Scott Lee 17:18
then for teachers as well,
Ellen Montgomery 17:19
right. Totally.
Scott Lee 17:21
You kind of hinted at the issues around are some of the issues around implicit bias, right, you know, right, then what is, what are you bringing to the table? What am I afraid of? You know, in this discussion, that sort of thing, too. I guess that's what implicit bias is, it is the elephant in the room a lot of times.
Ellen Montgomery 17:41
Yeah, but and I think that that's something that I'm really hoping to bring to our team is not make it really explicitly talk about implicit bias. And we, we are partnering with the DEI [diversity, equity and inclusion] team department at MNPS, to really create trainings specifically around that. So I just worked with a colleague, Melissa Gordon, and Shelby, Mocherman to create a training about implicit bias and healing centered practices, and really, to talk with educators about that intersection, because our decision making is coming oftentimes out of that, you know, when we're reacting to hard behaviors coming out of that subconscious space, that implicit bias lives in our mind. And that obviously has extremely negative impacts for students, especially, you know, in a disparate way in terms of race and disability, gender, things like that. And so we have to make sure that the work that we're doing is not only just adding on a piece of equity or bias at the end to what we're talking about, but really grounding it in equity. And that's a foundation that we're building off of. And so, and that's also something that I'm really soaking up everything from Alex Venet on as well. Her book, Equity Centered Trauma Informed Education is really helping me to understand how to do that well. And what those things are that schools that educators can do in terms of not only reacting or responding to trauma, or in thinking that, Oh, the trauma is in the community and the kids are bringing that trauma in from the community. But no, it's like what we talked about a second ago, like schools can sometimes cause trauma, they can perpetuate trauma, they can exacerbate trauma and really proactively pushing up against that and advocating for policy change for students in terms of you know, racist policies, homophobic transphobic, all those bills going through right now, that sort of thing. And that is trauma that happens inside the system, the education system inside our schools, and we are not being truly trauma informed if we're not not only just responding to the trauma that's happening, you know, in our kids lives and that they're bringing in with them but proactively trying to prevent as much of that at the hand of the school system.
Scott Lee 19:58
So easy sometimes do Just ignore certain things. And even if we don't address something, it's still there and the kid and not addressing it perpetuates it as well. So there's a lot of pieces to how that can affect a kid or kids. Right? Tell us about a school or classroom, whatever you want to do a situation that you've been involved with, and the work that you're doing now, where you have seen success, what does that success look like? And what happens? Yeah, there's
Ellen Montgomery 20:33
a couple of schools that are coming to mind right now, I think a lot of what I'm seeing in our advocacy centers, again, that are in all of our elementary schools, starting this year, as a space of emotional regulation, I've just seen so much life changing work happening there. And I've, I've heard of so many stories, where it's people that I know through other ways of my life, recognizing the use of advocacy centers, when their kid has a need and goes to them hearing about that is really special. But I think I'm I'm most proud of the ways that our coaches are really embracing the equity piece of trauma informed practices. And I have so many coaches that are really pushing up against some really ingrained racist policies and practices at their school and are being really bold and challenging those but also providing a space for folks of, you know, whether they're students or adults, whoever needs a space to help regulate their emotions is, is really helpful, but I am really proud of, of how they're doing that. And I think also the ways that we partner with other providers, like social workers, and counselors and going into schools, I went to a school this past week, where these two students, siblings, actually were, have experienced a lot of trauma in their life and are having a really hard time engaging in school and having behaviors that are really challenging for the adults in that building. And it was really amazing to see everyone just really supporting them and the family and just recognizing the humanity and every person involved and really finding ways to support these students, we're already seeing a lot of positive growth in these students. But it's, it's just meaningful to see that relationship grow. And I think that that, to me is the biggest, encouraging it's it's oftentimes hard to measure relationships. And it's hard to like talk about that, because sometimes people don't really understand the value in that. But we know through the research of trauma informed practices and psychology that five safe, stable, nurturing relationships and environments is what takes toxic stress, and turns it into tolerable stress. And so it's huge when you see students who are having trouble in school, having trouble engaging, getting pushed out, really start to form meaningful, respectful trust and attachments, relationships with adults in their lives. And I think that watching that play out firsthand in our advocacy centers, and just really with a lot of the adults in schools that we partner with, it's just really encouraging to me. And you can really see the impact that it's having in so many students lives across our district.
Scott Lee 23:34
That sounds wonderful. And the work that you are doing just sounds amazing. We'll put some information out there as well to share with people once again, Ellen, want to thank you for joining us today on the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast. And best of luck as you continue this work. I know it is rewarding and I know it is also difficult.
Ellen Montgomery 23:59
Thank you. It's great to talk to you again. Appreciate it.
Scott Lee 24:04
For more information about the programs and people that Ellen has mentioned in this podcast, please visit our website thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com, where we will have links for more information about our discussion. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is brought to you as a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. If you'd like to learn more about how we help schools and youth organizations, embed social emotional learning within their cultures, and implement strength based restorative interventions, please visit our website www.oncoursesolutions.net. Also, if you're interested in more about resilience, science, and trauma informed learning, please consider attending the Reclaiming Youth Seminars in the summer of 2022 at Augustana University in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, USA. For more information, please check their website at reclaimingyouth.org. This has been episode six of the spring 2022 season. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please tell your friends and colleagues about it either in person or using social media. We also greatly appreciate positive reviews on the podcast app you use. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is hosted and produced by R. Scott Lee, who retains copyright. We encourage diverse opinions however, opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of producer, partners, or underwriters. Guests are never compensated for appearance, nor do guests pay to appear. Transcripts are available following podcast publication at our website, thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com. Sponsorship opportunities or other inquiries may be made on the "Contact Us" page at our website thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com. Please follow the thoughtful Teacher Podcast on Twitter @Drrscottlee, and on facebook at facebook.com Thoughtful Teacher Podcast
