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[SPEAKER_02]: This is self-work, and I'm Dr. Margaret Beleford.
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[SPEAKER_02]: At self-work, we discuss psychological and emotional issues and what you can do about them, whether that's learning self-acceptance, taking action, or seeking therapy, or treatment.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Eight years ago, I extended the walls of my practice to reach those of you who might already be knowledgeable about mental health treatment, but also to those of you who might say, you'd never jog in the door of a therapist.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And yet, you're here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'll answer your questions while I invite you to take a few minutes for your own self work.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Although this listener can see that it's abuse, so often the abuse will be blamed and thus sometimes blame themselves for how they're being treated, and that can keep you more than stuck.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I recommend that this listener not get caught up in whether it's narcissism, but instead look for a plan to get out from under his father's constant verbal abuse.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to this week's edition of Self Work.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Today on Self Work, I'm featuring two voicemails that I've received within the last month, with questions about narcissism, descriptions of it, as well as frustration and even hopelessness about ever healing from the wounds that narcissists can cause.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We'll hear from one man who's dad, he describes as extremely self-centered and emotionally abusive to both him and his mother.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But asks, if this is narcissism or not, then there's a very poignant voicemail from a woman who talk eloquently about her past relationships with two different types of narcissists.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The first what she calls covert, the second malignant.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'll describe those terms so you'll know what we're talking about.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But she described herself as feeling hopeless about her ability to trust anyone, again.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What brought these stories together in my own mind was not only that the two stories were about narcissism, but how both listeners conveyed a sense of not knowing how to heal or which direction to go, where their lives wouldn't be so painfully affected by their narcissistic parrot or ex-partner.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'll of course play both messages in the episode so you can hear their message of confusion and how trapped they both have seemed to feel.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The first, better help has been a sponsor of self-work for years and they're offered to you remains as solid as it was in the beginning.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But the most common problem I hear from those seeking therapy is how hard it is to find a therapist, how long it takes, how vulnerable you feel asking around for names.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Better help solves those problems.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If you make the first contact, their standard is to offer names of therapists to you in less than two days, and you can talk to them in a first session to see if it's a good fit.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If so, you're on your way, but if not.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Rather than going through something awkward you simply let better help know and they'll ask what it was you didn't like and find someone else for you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You can text, chat, or talk virtually.
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[SPEAKER_02]: All of those avenues are open to you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a therapist because I got good therapy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'd had no idea how much I could benefit from it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But I knew I wasn't seeing myself or my world clearly.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Here's Better Helps offer for self-worth listeners.
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[SPEAKER_02]: 10% off your first month of sessions if you use this link, better help.com slash self-work.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they say the best time to plan a tree is 30 years ago.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But the next best is today.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's never too late to reach out and get help.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Better help.com slash self-worth.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So let's hear from the first listener, a man whose own father has been abusive and extremely derogatory toward the sun, who leaves me this message.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to figure out what the deal of my father, he's so selfish, self-demanding, self-centered, a mainly just focus is on himself, and it's mad at me, my mother.
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[SPEAKER_00]: often.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's verbal abuse.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He verbal abused me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My whole life.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My mother, she's been verbally abused and I get so angry.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because,
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[SPEAKER_00]: He puts us down to the crime for him and it's first.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's got a hyper drinker, no good for nothing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We don't do anything.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He's the man.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He's done it all.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He's got it all.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He said, oh, he's at kids.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He's got a wife.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I got nothing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know what the word is, too.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, describing this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I believe he's a narcissist because he is only in so focused on himself, he's at least like me, me, me, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: You can hear how this man is struggling to understand and wrap around the abuse that his father seems to have been dulling out for years.
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[SPEAKER_02]: At one point, and his message was fairly long, so I couldn't use all of it here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He said, maybe it's been five years since my dad even asked me how I was doing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I do think that narcissism is serving as a kind of diagnosis of the decade.
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[SPEAKER_02]: 20 years ago with borderline and 10 years ago with bipolar, now it seems to be narcissism.
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[SPEAKER_02]: People are calling all kinds of bad behavior narcissistic, when I'm not sure if that diagnosis is actually warranted or not.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The reason why this can be a problem, although not always, is that in jumping to that conclusion, you might not see that person's behavior for what it really is, abuse, self-centeredness, lack of empathy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Let's first talk about what narcissistic personality is.
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[SPEAKER_02]: or how you can recognize it in someone you're trying to have a relationship with.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The website Duke Health proposes an acronym that can help you remember these traits.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They say use the acronym SPECIAL ME to remember the nine signs of NPD or narcissistic
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[SPEAKER_02]: Number one, sense of self-importance.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Number two, preoccupation with power, beauty, or success.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Number three, entitled.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Number four, can only be around people who are important or special.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, that's by their judgment, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Number five, interpersonally exploitative for their own gain, or you might say that word exploitative, not sure which is the correct way.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Number 6, arrogant.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Number 7, lack of empathy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Number 8 must be admired.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Number 9, invious of others or believe that others are invious of them, special me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: These are the basic traits that narcissists will show you and others.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But what does the personality disorder part mean?
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[SPEAKER_02]: That means that these problems get in the way of someone having more normal relationships.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They will demonstrate these traits and almost all, if not all, their relationships with others.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So their ability to connect interpersonally is disordered, if that makes sense to you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Now they may tell you that you're the only person who has problems with the way they treat you, but that's simply them shifting the blame.
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[SPEAKER_02]: you might ask, but why wouldn't someone or myself see these traits as hurt for a wrong and get the hell out of the relationship anyway you can?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well first, is a narcissist, is your parent?
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's not often possible.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if it's a relationship that you chose, then you may feel that you're in love or you have children with them or your sexual relationship is fantastic at least for a while.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You may get in way over your head before you quite realize what's happening.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go over these traits again and see how they can be manipulated into pulling you into the relationship.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The first two, sense of self-importance and preoccupation with power and beauty or success.
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[SPEAKER_02]: These first two could easily be characterized at first with you yourself being chosen by this important person, the narcissist, who now sees you as beautiful or powerful.
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[SPEAKER_02]: After all, you're chosen by them, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: The problem becomes when you won't be enough anymore.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Your lover admiration would not be enough to quench their need for it, and they'll need to go elsewhere.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They'll need to have more people feed their ego.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Here too more, entitled, and can only be around people who are important or special.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This can be seen as self-confidence, and maybe if you don't have much of that commodity, you can view this as a positive trait, again, at least at first.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And here's three more.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Here comes this word.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how to say you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Interpersonally exploitative for their own gain, arrogant, and lack empathy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: These three to me fall together.
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[SPEAKER_02]: A true narcissist doesn't particularly care if anyone gets hurt because their needs take precedence.
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[SPEAKER_02]: then the last must be admired and invious of others or believe that others are invious of them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What's really exposed in these traits is the fact that narcissists are actually very insecure at their core.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They don't look that way, but they are.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So they need to be seen as special or believe that others are invious of them, or there is a battle going on for power and specialness.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They count on that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So let's take a break and we'll be back in just a moment.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I can certainly hear that this man is angry about the way his father has treated both himself and his mom and calling it narcissism, which it may be that may help him characterize it so he better understands that he does have words, that this constant badgering by his father is about the father.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But he went on to tell me, again, it was kind of long so I couldn't play all of it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But he went on to tell me that he was trying to share something he'd figured out about money with his dad, maybe in an effort to make more of it himself.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And his dad only used that as another opportunity to call him a loser.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So he's still trying to get his father's approval in time after time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He gets abuse instead.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And this listener likely is very trapped, not wanting to leave his mom to his dad's insults.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Is his dad a narcissist?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You can be a selfish jerk without being a narcissist.
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[SPEAKER_02]: In a much earlier article I wrote, I used this as a yardstick of how you could tell narcissists or not.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I've got that article in your show notes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: so I'm quoting from the article.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So what could mimic narcissism?
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[SPEAKER_02]: It could be sociopathy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Sociopaths lack of conscience.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They hurt others just because they can and they simply don't care.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Number two, it could be an addiction.
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[SPEAKER_02]: An alcohol or other kind of addiction could be governing their moods.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Addicts often don't take responsibility for their actions and will blame you instead.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Number three, the abusive behavior could have been learned.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They may have seen their father treat their mother-cruly or may have been abused themselves.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They were taught it was okay to demean women or might have a rigid belief in a male-dominated authoritarian culture.
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[SPEAKER_02]: In the last, it could be depression.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Depression can look like agitation and anger.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is especially likely if your relationship struggles can be tied to some kind of loss or change in the narcissist's life circumstances.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But let's make sure we stress one thing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Abuse is abuse, no matter where it comes from.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Although this listener can see that it's abuse, so often the abuse will be blamed and thus sometimes blame themselves for how they're being treated.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that can keep you more than stuck.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I recommend that this listener not get caught up in whether it's narcissism unless that helps him separate what's his and not his, but instead look for a plan to get out from under his father's constant verbal abuse.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The second listener voicemail is so very poignant and you can hear her hurt and even hopelessness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Dr. Margaret.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I have only been in two serious relationships.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My first was with my high school sweetheart, whom I was married to for 25 years.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We had six children together.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Due to his severe and untreated mental health issues with depression by polar and addictions we divorced.
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[SPEAKER_01]: After about a year, from my divorce, I got into a relationship.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was long distance, and it ended up being extremely toxic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: After much therapy and self-work, I was finally able to get out of that relationship, but it took five long years.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Both relationships were emotionally abusive.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My ex-husband turned out to be a covert narcissist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My ex-boyfriend.
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[SPEAKER_01]: a malignant narcissist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They had their manipulation tactics in common.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And since I was a people pleaser, this was very easy to do.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was attracted to my ex-boyfriend because I felt he was the exact opposite of my ex-husband.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In the end, though, I found out he cheated on me the entire five years we were together.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now I feel so hurt and betrayed and broken.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I'll ever trust
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[SPEAKER_01]: and I don't want to risk it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I feel it would be easier to remain single and alone.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yet it is so lonely sometimes I am stuck between wanting to find companionship.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and never wanting to take the risk again of being hurt and betrayed like I was.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My question is, I am 50 years old and both relationships together took up 30 years of my life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm struggling to see that there's any hope of me being in a healthy, loving relationship for the time I have left of any youth.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm feeling more depressed and ruminating so much on the past and what I wish I would have done different.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I feel trapped, hopeless, and angry at myself for not walking away sooner from both relationships.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How do I get past these trauma bonds and move forward with hope at my age?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It only seems to be getting harder to find people willing to be in a committed relationship so late in life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: At my age, I just don't feel like I'm young enough to start over and get past my past.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, she married her high school sweetheart, and she must have been very young, and she says that marriage was very long, and she's not yet 50.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And she had another five-year relationship on top of that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If you married when you were very young and are happy, good for you, but people change so very much as they age, and some of these behaviors might have been masked by young loves, potency, and frankly, being too immature to see things more rationally.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And she throws in that she was, and perhaps still is, a people pleaser, meaning that much of her worth or her sense of being okay in relationships lies within feeling like her partner is pleased, feeling that you've earned their love by pleasing them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that may prevent you from talking about your needs or desires.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if the other person is a narcissist, then that's an ominous pairing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You give, you please, and your narcissistic partner easily takes, lax empathy, and needs to feel important, which when things are rolling along, you provide.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But this listener also uses a term.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She says, covert narcissist, what's that?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Covert narcissism includes passive aggressive behavior, hypersensitivity to criticism, lack of empathy, a victim mentality, and emotional manipulation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Though, and this is important, these are often masked by a seemingly shy, humble, or self-deprecating exterior, that's why it's called covert, because it doesn't look like what I just described you as narcissism, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's masked by this shy, humble, or self-deprecating exterior.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Other signs include chronic envy, grandiose fantasies, but again, their fantasies, feelings of insecurity and anxiety and a subtle sense of entitlement.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It means that narcissism is subtly evident, there's a little effort put into hiding it, but basically covert narcissists try to get their way quietly.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Manipulating the situation through being passive-gressive, not looking angry, but your actions or your words convey disappointment or even anger.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Here's an example of passive-aggressiveness.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Let's say you're the daughter of a covert narcissist and you've had your first child and really want to work together with your spouse to decide what kind of experiences you want to create as your own family.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You tell this proudly to your mom and she says, well, I didn't realize that you've been hurt with how we raised you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so sorry.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What?
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's not at all what you meant.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Your mom is acting sorry or concerned, but she's not.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She wants you to tell her what a good mom she was and still is and ask for your help.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She's being passive aggressive.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, her listener had many years of this and finally figured out what was happening.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It was definitely no longer covert for her and she got a divorce.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We've probably was not an amicable one.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So she waited a long year and found someone else who she calls a malignant narcissist.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She said, I thought my ex-boyfriend was the exact opposite of my ex-husband.
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[SPEAKER_02]: First let's go over malignant narcissism.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The fancy explanation of it is it's a theoretical personality disorder construct meaning idea.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Conceptually distinct wish from typical narcissism personality disorder by the presence of any social behavior, egos and tonic sadism, which that means it's sadism that you're quite all right with or cruelty and a paranoid orientation, while still retaining some capacity for guilt and loyalty.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Basically, malignant narcissism is being really mean and even cruel.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You're throwing away any guilt for bad behavior, maybe even cruelty that you don't see as a problem.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The fact that the relationship was long distance may have been part of her not realizing what he was truly like.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But she then describes as a trauma bond, or maybe even two of them, her husband and her ex-boyfriend.
18:43.503 --> 18:44.583
[SPEAKER_02]: And so what's a trauma bond?
18:44.623 --> 18:48.765
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, she uses a lot of these words I want to make sure we're together on our understanding of that.
18:48.785 --> 18:58.929
[SPEAKER_02]: A trauma bond is created when the cycle of abuse is repeated so that the patterns of shame, confusion, hope and certainty and guilt feed on and reinforce one another.
18:59.449 --> 19:09.613
[SPEAKER_02]: Usually there's a power imbalance in a trauma bond with the abuser wielding rewards and punishments that keep the abused feeling of the situations unpredictable and out of their control.
19:10.613 --> 19:20.362
[SPEAKER_02]: Any self-worse can disappear as the cycle continues, which in turn makes leading the relationships seem about as possible as deciding to spontaneously levitate.
19:21.222 --> 19:25.466
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the last part of that is not their definition, but mine.
19:25.486 --> 19:32.132
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's basically an incredibly tangled up cycle of punishment, reward, punishment, reward.
19:32.832 --> 19:36.255
[SPEAKER_02]: where you're told you're a piece of dirt and then you're told you're really my whole world.
19:36.275 --> 19:40.378
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very confusing and very hard to get out of.
19:41.405 --> 19:48.949
[SPEAKER_02]: But I also want to point out something this listener said, the part about her ex-boyfriend, being the opposite of her ex- spouse.
19:49.449 --> 19:50.770
[SPEAKER_02]: To me, there's a problem here.
19:51.470 --> 19:55.032
[SPEAKER_02]: In my experience, that's not a great yardstick to use at all.
19:55.792 --> 20:00.074
[SPEAKER_02]: If the relationship is going to be different, are you acting differently?
20:00.795 --> 20:05.577
[SPEAKER_02]: If you didn't talk about your anger in the first relationship, are you talking about your anger in the second?
20:06.017 --> 20:07.318
[SPEAKER_02]: Or not, if not,
20:07.878 --> 20:08.298
[SPEAKER_02]: Why not?
20:08.838 --> 20:13.800
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you're not, that means you have it changed, although you seem to have chosen someone else.
20:14.200 --> 20:14.781
[SPEAKER_02]: That's different.
20:15.461 --> 20:17.502
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a very common mistake to make.
20:18.022 --> 20:20.423
[SPEAKER_02]: And I hate for this listener that perhaps she made it.
20:21.263 --> 20:27.685
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, the point I'm trying to make is you don't necessarily look for someone who's the opposite of the person that you were with.
20:28.186 --> 20:31.627
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to look at your own behavior and saying, I am acting differently.
20:32.527 --> 20:36.010
[SPEAKER_02]: Her people pleasing whatever that has looked like in her first few decades.
20:36.430 --> 20:38.012
[SPEAKER_02]: How is she now working on that?
20:38.572 --> 20:40.534
[SPEAKER_02]: Can she now risk disappointing someone?
20:41.094 --> 20:42.755
[SPEAKER_02]: Saying no, would she want to say no?
20:42.956 --> 20:44.757
[SPEAKER_02]: Saying yes, when it's a true yes.
20:45.437 --> 20:48.520
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are her things to focus on and try to change.
20:49.020 --> 20:53.244
[SPEAKER_02]: And if she changes, it's much more likely she'll choose differently.
20:53.824 --> 21:03.446
[SPEAKER_02]: So I believe some of her work, some realizations of changes she's made within herself, is vital to regaining any kind of trust in her own judgment.
21:04.286 --> 21:06.986
[SPEAKER_02]: Now there's another strange thing that happens with trauma bonds.
21:07.566 --> 21:17.288
[SPEAKER_02]: The emotional roller coaster she's been on with both these men can make other relationships that don't have a roller coaster quality to them in a weird way not be as attractive.
21:17.968 --> 21:21.109
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't hold within them the drama of the trauma bond.
21:21.709 --> 21:32.455
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, they can seem kind of boring, so that's something to be very honest with yourself about, maybe she's not at all, maybe she's been very honest, but I really struggle with that and she may as well.
21:33.290 --> 21:36.132
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, let's get to her problem with her age.
21:36.712 --> 21:38.794
[SPEAKER_02]: She's lonely, I can hear that loud and clear.
21:39.514 --> 21:44.538
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you move into a new way of being a 50 or a 40 or whatever age?
21:45.418 --> 21:48.700
[SPEAKER_02]: If she's raised six children, wow, that's tiring.
21:49.401 --> 21:56.646
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe that fatigue is made her feel older than she is, maybe she's pre-menopausal, which can be very difficult to get through or menopausal.
21:57.566 --> 22:02.090
[SPEAKER_02]: The tea, not feeling attractive, having cloudy, thinking, emotional instability, you name it.
22:02.690 --> 22:05.332
[SPEAKER_02]: Being premenopausal or menopausal can cause it.
22:05.652 --> 22:08.735
[SPEAKER_02]: And you don't realize it's something that's happening to you.
22:08.815 --> 22:10.716
[SPEAKER_02]: You think it's something that you've just become.
22:11.477 --> 22:16.160
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd recommend meeting with someone who's an expert on a hormonal treatment, and that doesn't have to be a doctor.
22:16.621 --> 22:25.928
[SPEAKER_02]: There are people who are experts on hormonal advice out there, and actually I have one of those experts on self-work, a year or more ago, Donna Wijk, and I will include my episode with her.
22:26.788 --> 22:29.531
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll have the link for that conversation in your show notes.
22:30.832 --> 22:31.813
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, back to age.
22:32.453 --> 22:38.418
[SPEAKER_02]: For those of you who have been a part of the self-work family for a while now, you know that I began this podcast when I was 62.
22:39.499 --> 22:41.461
[SPEAKER_02]: I felt way too old.
22:42.242 --> 22:45.485
[SPEAKER_02]: I questioned whether anyone would want to tune in to hear what I had to say.
22:45.545 --> 22:50.689
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I had decades of experiences with therapist, but would my actual age be a problem?
22:51.170 --> 22:51.570
[SPEAKER_02]: I get it.
22:52.070 --> 22:53.171
[SPEAKER_02]: I get that she's struggling.
22:54.032 --> 22:58.255
[SPEAKER_02]: But I also heard her say that her breakup was fairly new.
22:59.135 --> 23:01.536
[SPEAKER_02]: Please give yourself time.
23:02.237 --> 23:04.338
[SPEAKER_02]: Learn to be by yourself without the drama.
23:04.958 --> 23:10.402
[SPEAKER_02]: Work with a therapist or get some self-help books to help you figure out why you were choosing men such as this.
23:10.922 --> 23:13.784
[SPEAKER_02]: And dedicate yourself to change within yourself.
23:14.684 --> 23:15.565
[SPEAKER_02]: and one more thing.
23:16.205 --> 23:21.089
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the saddest things that I can hear someone say is, I waste it all those years.
23:21.730 --> 23:24.472
[SPEAKER_02]: Now they may quickly add except for the children or something like that.
23:25.253 --> 23:28.075
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure why this listener had to learn what she had to learn.
23:28.135 --> 23:33.259
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why many people that I've seen over the years had to learn the hard way as many of them say.
23:34.080 --> 23:39.244
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure why I looked at myself in the mirror in my 20s and was somehow okay with how I was living my life.
23:39.304 --> 23:41.065
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the story you heard from me last week.
23:41.705 --> 23:44.427
[SPEAKER_02]: But to this listener I'd say, you're where you are now.
23:45.088 --> 23:47.209
[SPEAKER_02]: Shame and regret will get you nowhere.
23:48.210 --> 23:52.553
[SPEAKER_02]: Accept yourself and accept that you've learned the way you learned.
23:52.693 --> 23:57.256
[SPEAKER_02]: So as you said yourself, your past can stay in the past.
23:58.297 --> 23:59.898
[SPEAKER_02]: And then focus on you for a while.
24:00.338 --> 24:07.840
[SPEAKER_02]: To combat loneliness, I love Marissa Franco's book, Plotonic, as she discusses how much meaning and connection we can find in our friendships.
24:08.300 --> 24:14.542
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead of idealizing romantic love, learn something new, watch a sunset by yourself and truly enjoy it.
24:15.542 --> 24:18.983
[SPEAKER_02]: That way, if and when you choose to date a guy, it won't be out of need.
24:19.643 --> 24:21.143
[SPEAKER_02]: It'll be out of choice.
24:22.104 --> 24:26.485
[SPEAKER_02]: Good luck to both of you, and thank you so much for sending in a voicemail.
24:37.747 --> 24:45.496
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm still flying a bit high from my TEDx on how to recognize perfectly hidden pressure and hit the 2 million views mark.
24:46.518 --> 24:49.461
[SPEAKER_02]: It really makes me so determined to get out my message.
24:49.521 --> 24:54.768
[SPEAKER_02]: I do have another book or it's a workbook coming out on perfectly hidden depression in April of next year.
24:55.448 --> 24:57.549
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be very different from my first book.
24:58.090 --> 25:07.455
[SPEAKER_02]: It's written, so I know it is, and it's really kind of a stand-alone book, and it's also something you don't have to read from start to finish, which is the way I suggest to reading the first book.
25:07.856 --> 25:23.385
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a book you can pick up, use whatever time you have available to do the exercises as we sort of plunge into each trait by itself, and you don't even have to consider yourself a perfectionist, but I will have more about that closer to the time it's being published.
25:24.125 --> 25:31.028
[SPEAKER_02]: If you'd like to join my Facebook group, which is a closed group, it's Facebook.com slash groups slash self work.
25:31.068 --> 25:35.410
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a little more than 4,000 members, and it's really great support.
25:35.450 --> 25:36.691
[SPEAKER_02]: You laugh, you cry.
25:36.711 --> 25:38.091
[SPEAKER_02]: You hear stories.
25:38.151 --> 25:40.052
[SPEAKER_02]: We keep politics and religion out of it.
25:40.192 --> 25:40.913
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not allowed.
25:41.733 --> 25:43.874
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of people there feel very safe.
25:44.134 --> 25:48.896
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to have you there that's facebook.com slash groups slash self work.
25:49.316 --> 25:51.397
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, the original book perfectly hidden.
25:51.417 --> 25:56.220
[SPEAKER_02]: The pression is still available in ebook, audio book or paperback.
25:57.160 --> 26:09.625
[SPEAKER_02]: maybe you're like many of the people who've contacted me and said I've really sort of had to grow used to the idea that my perfectionism is not my best friend and then it does have some qualities to it that maybe I need to look at.
26:10.505 --> 26:12.326
[SPEAKER_02]: If you need to read it, I hope you will.
26:13.128 --> 26:14.549
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you again for being here.
26:15.090 --> 26:21.196
[SPEAKER_02]: If this is your first time, if this is your 300th time, I really, really am so glad you're here.
26:21.916 --> 26:28.242
[SPEAKER_02]: You can always leave me a message at S. Dr. Margaret at Dr. Margaretweather.com or leave me a speak-put message at these folks today.
26:28.983 --> 26:34.246
[SPEAKER_02]: You can find speakpipe in the show notes or on my website at Dr. Margaret Weatherford.com.
26:35.006 --> 26:36.167
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so grateful you're here.
26:36.807 --> 26:39.989
[SPEAKER_02]: Please take care of yourself, your loved ones, and your community.
26:40.689 --> 26:43.711
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Dr. Margaret, and this has been Self Work.
00:06.985 --> 00:09.587
[SPEAKER_02]: This is self-work, and I'm Dr. Margaret Beleford.
00:10.447 --> 00:20.793
[SPEAKER_02]: At self-work, we discuss psychological and emotional issues and what you can do about them, whether that's learning self-acceptance, taking action, or seeking therapy, or treatment.
00:21.414 --> 00:32.641
[SPEAKER_02]: Eight years ago, I extended the walls of my practice to reach those of you who might already be knowledgeable about mental health treatment, but also to those of you who might say, you'd never jog in the door of a therapist.
00:33.181 --> 00:34.462
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet, you're here.
00:35.082 --> 00:40.423
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll answer your questions while I invite you to take a few minutes for your own self work.
00:42.783 --> 00:53.185
[SPEAKER_02]: Although this listener can see that it's abuse, so often the abuse will be blamed and thus sometimes blame themselves for how they're being treated, and that can keep you more than stuck.
00:53.705 --> 01:02.487
[SPEAKER_02]: So I recommend that this listener not get caught up in whether it's narcissism, but instead look for a plan to get out from under his father's constant verbal abuse.
01:03.946 --> 01:06.847
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to this week's edition of Self Work.
01:07.927 --> 01:21.890
[SPEAKER_02]: Today on Self Work, I'm featuring two voicemails that I've received within the last month, with questions about narcissism, descriptions of it, as well as frustration and even hopelessness about ever healing from the wounds that narcissists can cause.
01:22.610 --> 01:29.212
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll hear from one man who's dad, he describes as extremely self-centered and emotionally abusive to both him and his mother.
01:29.832 --> 01:39.598
[SPEAKER_02]: But asks, if this is narcissism or not, then there's a very poignant voicemail from a woman who talk eloquently about her past relationships with two different types of narcissists.
01:40.179 --> 01:43.221
[SPEAKER_02]: The first what she calls covert, the second malignant.
01:43.581 --> 01:46.102
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll describe those terms so you'll know what we're talking about.
01:46.623 --> 01:51.526
[SPEAKER_02]: But she described herself as feeling hopeless about her ability to trust anyone, again.
01:52.226 --> 02:07.982
[SPEAKER_02]: What brought these stories together in my own mind was not only that the two stories were about narcissism, but how both listeners conveyed a sense of not knowing how to heal or which direction to go, where their lives wouldn't be so painfully affected by their narcissistic parrot or ex-partner.
02:08.582 --> 02:15.791
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll of course play both messages in the episode so you can hear their message of confusion and how trapped they both have seemed to feel.
02:16.192 --> 02:23.341
[SPEAKER_02]: The first, better help has been a sponsor of self-work for years and they're offered to you remains as solid as it was in the beginning.
02:28.413 --> 02:37.297
[SPEAKER_02]: But the most common problem I hear from those seeking therapy is how hard it is to find a therapist, how long it takes, how vulnerable you feel asking around for names.
02:37.797 --> 02:39.337
[SPEAKER_02]: Better help solves those problems.
02:39.678 --> 02:48.101
[SPEAKER_02]: If you make the first contact, their standard is to offer names of therapists to you in less than two days, and you can talk to them in a first session to see if it's a good fit.
02:48.521 --> 02:50.242
[SPEAKER_02]: If so, you're on your way, but if not.
02:50.662 --> 02:57.745
[SPEAKER_02]: Rather than going through something awkward you simply let better help know and they'll ask what it was you didn't like and find someone else for you.
02:58.065 --> 03:00.347
[SPEAKER_02]: You can text, chat, or talk virtually.
03:00.567 --> 03:02.247
[SPEAKER_02]: All of those avenues are open to you.
03:02.648 --> 03:04.789
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a therapist because I got good therapy.
03:05.169 --> 03:07.710
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd had no idea how much I could benefit from it.
03:07.970 --> 03:10.651
[SPEAKER_02]: But I knew I wasn't seeing myself or my world clearly.
03:11.112 --> 03:14.353
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's Better Helps offer for self-worth listeners.
03:14.373 --> 03:19.756
[SPEAKER_02]: 10% off your first month of sessions if you use this link, better help.com slash self-work.
03:20.096 --> 03:23.017
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they say the best time to plan a tree is 30 years ago.
03:23.377 --> 03:25.098
[SPEAKER_02]: But the next best is today.
03:25.478 --> 03:28.120
[SPEAKER_02]: It's never too late to reach out and get help.
03:28.540 --> 03:30.901
[SPEAKER_02]: Better help.com slash self-worth.
03:45.848 --> 03:54.715
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's hear from the first listener, a man whose own father has been abusive and extremely derogatory toward the sun, who leaves me this message.
03:56.096 --> 04:11.127
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to figure out what the deal of my father, he's so selfish, self-demanding, self-centered, a mainly just focus is on himself, and it's mad at me, my mother.
04:12.202 --> 04:12.563
[SPEAKER_00]: often.
04:12.983 --> 04:14.766
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's verbal abuse.
04:14.866 --> 04:16.549
[SPEAKER_00]: He verbal abused me.
04:17.470 --> 04:18.111
[SPEAKER_00]: My whole life.
04:18.672 --> 04:24.380
[SPEAKER_00]: My mother, she's been verbally abused and I get so angry.
04:25.482 --> 04:25.863
[SPEAKER_00]: Because,
04:26.966 --> 04:29.228
[SPEAKER_00]: He puts us down to the crime for him and it's first.
04:29.648 --> 04:31.449
[SPEAKER_00]: It's got a hyper drinker, no good for nothing.
04:32.010 --> 04:33.451
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't do anything.
04:33.471 --> 04:34.452
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the man.
04:34.512 --> 04:35.392
[SPEAKER_00]: He's done it all.
04:35.873 --> 04:36.973
[SPEAKER_00]: He's got it all.
04:37.053 --> 04:39.175
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, oh, he's at kids.
04:39.976 --> 04:40.896
[SPEAKER_00]: He's got a wife.
04:41.697 --> 04:42.397
[SPEAKER_00]: I got nothing.
04:44.219 --> 04:47.281
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know what the word is, too.
04:48.922 --> 04:50.303
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, describing this.
04:56.658 --> 05:07.424
[SPEAKER_00]: I believe he's a narcissist because he is only in so focused on himself, he's at least like me, me, me, right?
05:09.022 --> 05:15.608
[SPEAKER_02]: You can hear how this man is struggling to understand and wrap around the abuse that his father seems to have been dulling out for years.
05:16.328 --> 05:20.592
[SPEAKER_02]: At one point, and his message was fairly long, so I couldn't use all of it here.
05:20.772 --> 05:26.277
[SPEAKER_02]: He said, maybe it's been five years since my dad even asked me how I was doing.
05:26.798 --> 05:31.201
[SPEAKER_02]: I do think that narcissism is serving as a kind of diagnosis of the decade.
05:32.282 --> 05:36.585
[SPEAKER_02]: 20 years ago with borderline and 10 years ago with bipolar, now it seems to be narcissism.
05:37.205 --> 05:43.929
[SPEAKER_02]: People are calling all kinds of bad behavior narcissistic, when I'm not sure if that diagnosis is actually warranted or not.
05:44.589 --> 05:56.476
[SPEAKER_02]: The reason why this can be a problem, although not always, is that in jumping to that conclusion, you might not see that person's behavior for what it really is, abuse, self-centeredness, lack of empathy.
05:57.176 --> 06:00.118
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's first talk about what narcissistic personality is.
06:01.018 --> 06:04.621
[SPEAKER_02]: or how you can recognize it in someone you're trying to have a relationship with.
06:05.521 --> 06:09.905
[SPEAKER_02]: The website Duke Health proposes an acronym that can help you remember these traits.
06:10.465 --> 06:17.290
[SPEAKER_02]: They say use the acronym SPECIAL ME to remember the nine signs of NPD or narcissistic
06:22.802 --> 06:24.704
[SPEAKER_02]: Number one, sense of self-importance.
06:25.264 --> 06:28.327
[SPEAKER_02]: Number two, preoccupation with power, beauty, or success.
06:28.908 --> 06:30.209
[SPEAKER_02]: Number three, entitled.
06:30.890 --> 06:34.073
[SPEAKER_02]: Number four, can only be around people who are important or special.
06:34.093 --> 06:36.015
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, that's by their judgment, right?
06:36.655 --> 06:43.382
[SPEAKER_02]: Number five, interpersonally exploitative for their own gain, or you might say that word exploitative, not sure which is the correct way.
06:44.062 --> 06:45.183
[SPEAKER_02]: Number 6, arrogant.
06:45.483 --> 06:46.944
[SPEAKER_02]: Number 7, lack of empathy.
06:47.625 --> 06:49.667
[SPEAKER_02]: Number 8 must be admired.
06:50.147 --> 06:55.611
[SPEAKER_02]: Number 9, invious of others or believe that others are invious of them, special me.
06:56.132 --> 06:59.254
[SPEAKER_02]: These are the basic traits that narcissists will show you and others.
06:59.755 --> 07:02.197
[SPEAKER_02]: But what does the personality disorder part mean?
07:02.917 --> 07:07.459
[SPEAKER_02]: That means that these problems get in the way of someone having more normal relationships.
07:08.020 --> 07:12.682
[SPEAKER_02]: They will demonstrate these traits and almost all, if not all, their relationships with others.
07:13.483 --> 07:18.685
[SPEAKER_02]: So their ability to connect interpersonally is disordered, if that makes sense to you.
07:19.486 --> 07:26.470
[SPEAKER_02]: Now they may tell you that you're the only person who has problems with the way they treat you, but that's simply them shifting the blame.
07:27.530 --> 07:35.654
[SPEAKER_02]: you might ask, but why wouldn't someone or myself see these traits as hurt for a wrong and get the hell out of the relationship anyway you can?
07:36.454 --> 07:39.375
[SPEAKER_02]: Well first, is a narcissist, is your parent?
07:39.815 --> 07:41.096
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not often possible.
07:41.776 --> 07:50.020
[SPEAKER_02]: And if it's a relationship that you chose, then you may feel that you're in love or you have children with them or your sexual relationship is fantastic at least for a while.
07:50.780 --> 07:54.622
[SPEAKER_02]: You may get in way over your head before you quite realize what's happening.
07:55.628 --> 08:01.530
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go over these traits again and see how they can be manipulated into pulling you into the relationship.
08:02.330 --> 08:07.672
[SPEAKER_02]: The first two, sense of self-importance and preoccupation with power and beauty or success.
08:08.532 --> 08:18.556
[SPEAKER_02]: These first two could easily be characterized at first with you yourself being chosen by this important person, the narcissist, who now sees you as beautiful or powerful.
08:19.196 --> 08:20.957
[SPEAKER_02]: After all, you're chosen by them, right?
08:21.757 --> 08:24.458
[SPEAKER_02]: The problem becomes when you won't be enough anymore.
08:24.999 --> 08:30.882
[SPEAKER_02]: Your lover admiration would not be enough to quench their need for it, and they'll need to go elsewhere.
08:31.362 --> 08:33.843
[SPEAKER_02]: They'll need to have more people feed their ego.
08:34.704 --> 08:39.166
[SPEAKER_02]: Here too more, entitled, and can only be around people who are important or special.
08:40.067 --> 08:49.452
[SPEAKER_02]: This can be seen as self-confidence, and maybe if you don't have much of that commodity, you can view this as a positive trait, again, at least at first.
08:50.212 --> 08:51.053
[SPEAKER_02]: And here's three more.
08:51.694 --> 08:52.455
[SPEAKER_02]: Here comes this word.
08:52.495 --> 08:53.576
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how to say you.
08:54.137 --> 08:58.982
[SPEAKER_02]: Interpersonally exploitative for their own gain, arrogant, and lack empathy.
08:59.123 --> 09:00.624
[SPEAKER_02]: These three to me fall together.
09:01.225 --> 09:07.272
[SPEAKER_02]: A true narcissist doesn't particularly care if anyone gets hurt because their needs take precedence.
09:08.073 --> 09:14.099
[SPEAKER_02]: then the last must be admired and invious of others or believe that others are invious of them.
09:14.839 --> 09:21.445
[SPEAKER_02]: What's really exposed in these traits is the fact that narcissists are actually very insecure at their core.
09:21.725 --> 09:23.607
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't look that way, but they are.
09:24.248 --> 09:32.115
[SPEAKER_02]: So they need to be seen as special or believe that others are invious of them, or there is a battle going on for power and specialness.
09:33.036 --> 09:34.377
[SPEAKER_02]: They count on that.
09:35.662 --> 09:38.783
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's take a break and we'll be back in just a moment.
09:40.203 --> 09:56.547
[SPEAKER_02]: I can certainly hear that this man is angry about the way his father has treated both himself and his mom and calling it narcissism, which it may be that may help him characterize it so he better understands that he does have words, that this constant badgering by his father is about the father.
09:57.307 --> 10:00.708
[SPEAKER_02]: But he went on to tell me, again, it was kind of long so I couldn't play all of it.
10:01.068 --> 10:08.411
[SPEAKER_02]: But he went on to tell me that he was trying to share something he'd figured out about money with his dad, maybe in an effort to make more of it himself.
10:09.011 --> 10:13.372
[SPEAKER_02]: And his dad only used that as another opportunity to call him a loser.
10:14.113 --> 10:19.174
[SPEAKER_02]: So he's still trying to get his father's approval in time after time.
10:19.614 --> 10:20.695
[SPEAKER_02]: He gets abuse instead.
10:21.455 --> 10:26.260
[SPEAKER_02]: And this listener likely is very trapped, not wanting to leave his mom to his dad's insults.
10:27.020 --> 10:28.281
[SPEAKER_02]: Is his dad a narcissist?
10:28.342 --> 10:28.982
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure.
10:29.543 --> 10:32.746
[SPEAKER_02]: You can be a selfish jerk without being a narcissist.
10:33.346 --> 10:39.152
[SPEAKER_02]: In a much earlier article I wrote, I used this as a yardstick of how you could tell narcissists or not.
10:39.972 --> 10:41.874
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've got that article in your show notes.
10:42.855 --> 10:44.096
[SPEAKER_02]: so I'm quoting from the article.
10:44.156 --> 10:45.877
[SPEAKER_02]: So what could mimic narcissism?
10:46.658 --> 10:48.019
[SPEAKER_02]: It could be sociopathy.
10:48.559 --> 10:50.261
[SPEAKER_02]: Sociopaths lack of conscience.
10:50.361 --> 10:53.863
[SPEAKER_02]: They hurt others just because they can and they simply don't care.
10:54.504 --> 10:56.465
[SPEAKER_02]: Number two, it could be an addiction.
10:56.985 --> 11:00.408
[SPEAKER_02]: An alcohol or other kind of addiction could be governing their moods.
11:01.068 --> 11:05.352
[SPEAKER_02]: Addicts often don't take responsibility for their actions and will blame you instead.
11:06.092 --> 11:09.135
[SPEAKER_02]: Number three, the abusive behavior could have been learned.
11:09.675 --> 11:14.179
[SPEAKER_02]: They may have seen their father treat their mother-cruly or may have been abused themselves.
11:14.680 --> 11:21.305
[SPEAKER_02]: They were taught it was okay to demean women or might have a rigid belief in a male-dominated authoritarian culture.
11:22.206 --> 11:24.128
[SPEAKER_02]: In the last, it could be depression.
11:24.888 --> 11:27.369
[SPEAKER_02]: Depression can look like agitation and anger.
11:27.889 --> 11:36.372
[SPEAKER_02]: This is especially likely if your relationship struggles can be tied to some kind of loss or change in the narcissist's life circumstances.
11:36.972 --> 11:38.692
[SPEAKER_02]: But let's make sure we stress one thing.
11:39.313 --> 11:42.073
[SPEAKER_02]: Abuse is abuse, no matter where it comes from.
11:42.874 --> 11:51.456
[SPEAKER_02]: Although this listener can see that it's abuse, so often the abuse will be blamed and thus sometimes blame themselves for how they're being treated.
11:51.936 --> 11:53.777
[SPEAKER_02]: And that can keep you more than stuck.
11:54.730 --> 12:06.893
[SPEAKER_02]: So I recommend that this listener not get caught up in whether it's narcissism unless that helps him separate what's his and not his, but instead look for a plan to get out from under his father's constant verbal abuse.
12:07.793 --> 12:12.894
[SPEAKER_02]: The second listener voicemail is so very poignant and you can hear her hurt and even hopelessness.
12:14.294 --> 12:15.334
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Dr. Margaret.
12:15.634 --> 12:18.335
[SPEAKER_01]: I have only been in two serious relationships.
12:18.943 --> 12:23.407
[SPEAKER_01]: My first was with my high school sweetheart, whom I was married to for 25 years.
12:23.727 --> 12:25.308
[SPEAKER_01]: We had six children together.
12:26.249 --> 12:33.055
[SPEAKER_01]: Due to his severe and untreated mental health issues with depression by polar and addictions we divorced.
12:34.216 --> 12:39.180
[SPEAKER_01]: After about a year, from my divorce, I got into a relationship.
12:40.003 --> 12:44.647
[SPEAKER_01]: It was long distance, and it ended up being extremely toxic.
12:45.147 --> 12:52.514
[SPEAKER_01]: After much therapy and self-work, I was finally able to get out of that relationship, but it took five long years.
12:53.595 --> 12:56.797
[SPEAKER_01]: Both relationships were emotionally abusive.
12:57.418 --> 13:00.821
[SPEAKER_01]: My ex-husband turned out to be a covert narcissist.
13:01.121 --> 13:02.142
[SPEAKER_01]: My ex-boyfriend.
13:02.562 --> 13:04.103
[SPEAKER_01]: a malignant narcissist.
13:04.763 --> 13:08.645
[SPEAKER_01]: They had their manipulation tactics in common.
13:09.425 --> 13:13.207
[SPEAKER_01]: And since I was a people pleaser, this was very easy to do.
13:13.227 --> 13:19.830
[SPEAKER_01]: I was attracted to my ex-boyfriend because I felt he was the exact opposite of my ex-husband.
13:20.530 --> 13:25.052
[SPEAKER_01]: In the end, though, I found out he cheated on me the entire five years we were together.
13:25.072 --> 13:28.594
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I feel so hurt and betrayed and broken.
13:28.614 --> 13:30.215
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I'll ever trust
13:31.708 --> 13:33.149
[SPEAKER_01]: and I don't want to risk it.
13:34.090 --> 13:37.232
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel it would be easier to remain single and alone.
13:37.912 --> 13:43.356
[SPEAKER_01]: Yet it is so lonely sometimes I am stuck between wanting to find companionship.
13:43.965 --> 13:49.327
[SPEAKER_01]: and never wanting to take the risk again of being hurt and betrayed like I was.
13:50.147 --> 13:56.989
[SPEAKER_01]: My question is, I am 50 years old and both relationships together took up 30 years of my life.
13:57.589 --> 14:05.332
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm struggling to see that there's any hope of me being in a healthy, loving relationship for the time I have left of any youth.
14:05.932 --> 14:11.613
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm feeling more depressed and ruminating so much on the past and what I wish I would have done different.
14:11.973 --> 14:18.575
[SPEAKER_01]: But I feel trapped, hopeless, and angry at myself for not walking away sooner from both relationships.
14:19.315 --> 14:24.476
[SPEAKER_01]: How do I get past these trauma bonds and move forward with hope at my age?
14:24.896 --> 14:30.498
[SPEAKER_01]: It only seems to be getting harder to find people willing to be in a committed relationship so late in life.
14:36.159 --> 14:42.944
[SPEAKER_01]: At my age, I just don't feel like I'm young enough to start over and get past my past.
14:44.165 --> 14:51.551
[SPEAKER_02]: So, she married her high school sweetheart, and she must have been very young, and she says that marriage was very long, and she's not yet 50.
14:52.812 --> 14:55.193
[SPEAKER_02]: And she had another five-year relationship on top of that.
14:56.154 --> 15:10.587
[SPEAKER_02]: If you married when you were very young and are happy, good for you, but people change so very much as they age, and some of these behaviors might have been masked by young loves, potency, and frankly, being too immature to see things more rationally.
15:11.387 --> 15:25.897
[SPEAKER_02]: And she throws in that she was, and perhaps still is, a people pleaser, meaning that much of her worth or her sense of being okay in relationships lies within feeling like her partner is pleased, feeling that you've earned their love by pleasing them.
15:26.497 --> 15:29.478
[SPEAKER_02]: So that may prevent you from talking about your needs or desires.
15:29.958 --> 15:33.899
[SPEAKER_02]: And if the other person is a narcissist, then that's an ominous pairing.
15:34.459 --> 15:45.842
[SPEAKER_02]: You give, you please, and your narcissistic partner easily takes, lax empathy, and needs to feel important, which when things are rolling along, you provide.
15:46.587 --> 15:48.490
[SPEAKER_02]: But this listener also uses a term.
15:48.610 --> 15:51.334
[SPEAKER_02]: She says, covert narcissist, what's that?
15:52.095 --> 16:02.349
[SPEAKER_02]: Covert narcissism includes passive aggressive behavior, hypersensitivity to criticism, lack of empathy, a victim mentality, and emotional manipulation.
16:03.030 --> 16:16.040
[SPEAKER_02]: Though, and this is important, these are often masked by a seemingly shy, humble, or self-deprecating exterior, that's why it's called covert, because it doesn't look like what I just described you as narcissism, right?
16:16.600 --> 16:20.983
[SPEAKER_02]: It's masked by this shy, humble, or self-deprecating exterior.
16:21.744 --> 16:30.891
[SPEAKER_02]: Other signs include chronic envy, grandiose fantasies, but again, their fantasies, feelings of insecurity and anxiety and a subtle sense of entitlement.
16:31.651 --> 16:41.140
[SPEAKER_02]: It means that narcissism is subtly evident, there's a little effort put into hiding it, but basically covert narcissists try to get their way quietly.
16:41.660 --> 16:49.747
[SPEAKER_02]: Manipulating the situation through being passive-gressive, not looking angry, but your actions or your words convey disappointment or even anger.
16:50.188 --> 16:52.210
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's an example of passive-aggressiveness.
16:52.930 --> 17:03.562
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's say you're the daughter of a covert narcissist and you've had your first child and really want to work together with your spouse to decide what kind of experiences you want to create as your own family.
17:04.143 --> 17:10.790
[SPEAKER_02]: You tell this proudly to your mom and she says, well, I didn't realize that you've been hurt with how we raised you.
17:11.251 --> 17:11.952
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so sorry.
17:12.912 --> 17:13.152
[SPEAKER_02]: What?
17:13.852 --> 17:15.133
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not at all what you meant.
17:15.773 --> 17:19.034
[SPEAKER_02]: Your mom is acting sorry or concerned, but she's not.
17:19.674 --> 17:23.835
[SPEAKER_02]: She wants you to tell her what a good mom she was and still is and ask for your help.
17:23.935 --> 17:26.416
[SPEAKER_02]: She's being passive aggressive.
17:27.076 --> 17:31.518
[SPEAKER_02]: So, her listener had many years of this and finally figured out what was happening.
17:31.958 --> 17:35.519
[SPEAKER_02]: It was definitely no longer covert for her and she got a divorce.
17:36.539 --> 17:39.300
[SPEAKER_02]: We've probably was not an amicable one.
17:40.063 --> 17:44.726
[SPEAKER_02]: So she waited a long year and found someone else who she calls a malignant narcissist.
17:45.367 --> 17:49.330
[SPEAKER_02]: She said, I thought my ex-boyfriend was the exact opposite of my ex-husband.
17:50.370 --> 17:52.812
[SPEAKER_02]: First let's go over malignant narcissism.
17:53.593 --> 17:59.177
[SPEAKER_02]: The fancy explanation of it is it's a theoretical personality disorder construct meaning idea.
17:59.717 --> 18:18.430
[SPEAKER_02]: Conceptually distinct wish from typical narcissism personality disorder by the presence of any social behavior, egos and tonic sadism, which that means it's sadism that you're quite all right with or cruelty and a paranoid orientation, while still retaining some capacity for guilt and loyalty.
18:19.171 --> 18:24.395
[SPEAKER_02]: Basically, malignant narcissism is being really mean and even cruel.
18:25.175 --> 18:30.417
[SPEAKER_02]: You're throwing away any guilt for bad behavior, maybe even cruelty that you don't see as a problem.
18:31.038 --> 18:36.400
[SPEAKER_02]: The fact that the relationship was long distance may have been part of her not realizing what he was truly like.
18:37.300 --> 18:42.803
[SPEAKER_02]: But she then describes as a trauma bond, or maybe even two of them, her husband and her ex-boyfriend.
18:43.503 --> 18:44.583
[SPEAKER_02]: And so what's a trauma bond?
18:44.623 --> 18:48.765
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, she uses a lot of these words I want to make sure we're together on our understanding of that.
18:48.785 --> 18:58.929
[SPEAKER_02]: A trauma bond is created when the cycle of abuse is repeated so that the patterns of shame, confusion, hope and certainty and guilt feed on and reinforce one another.
18:59.449 --> 19:09.613
[SPEAKER_02]: Usually there's a power imbalance in a trauma bond with the abuser wielding rewards and punishments that keep the abused feeling of the situations unpredictable and out of their control.
19:10.613 --> 19:20.362
[SPEAKER_02]: Any self-worse can disappear as the cycle continues, which in turn makes leading the relationships seem about as possible as deciding to spontaneously levitate.
19:21.222 --> 19:25.466
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the last part of that is not their definition, but mine.
19:25.486 --> 19:32.132
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's basically an incredibly tangled up cycle of punishment, reward, punishment, reward.
19:32.832 --> 19:36.255
[SPEAKER_02]: where you're told you're a piece of dirt and then you're told you're really my whole world.
19:36.275 --> 19:40.378
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very confusing and very hard to get out of.
19:41.405 --> 19:48.949
[SPEAKER_02]: But I also want to point out something this listener said, the part about her ex-boyfriend, being the opposite of her ex- spouse.
19:49.449 --> 19:50.770
[SPEAKER_02]: To me, there's a problem here.
19:51.470 --> 19:55.032
[SPEAKER_02]: In my experience, that's not a great yardstick to use at all.
19:55.792 --> 20:00.074
[SPEAKER_02]: If the relationship is going to be different, are you acting differently?
20:00.795 --> 20:05.577
[SPEAKER_02]: If you didn't talk about your anger in the first relationship, are you talking about your anger in the second?
20:06.017 --> 20:07.318
[SPEAKER_02]: Or not, if not,
20:07.878 --> 20:08.298
[SPEAKER_02]: Why not?
20:08.838 --> 20:13.800
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you're not, that means you have it changed, although you seem to have chosen someone else.
20:14.200 --> 20:14.781
[SPEAKER_02]: That's different.
20:15.461 --> 20:17.502
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a very common mistake to make.
20:18.022 --> 20:20.423
[SPEAKER_02]: And I hate for this listener that perhaps she made it.
20:21.263 --> 20:27.685
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, the point I'm trying to make is you don't necessarily look for someone who's the opposite of the person that you were with.
20:28.186 --> 20:31.627
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to look at your own behavior and saying, I am acting differently.
20:32.527 --> 20:36.010
[SPEAKER_02]: Her people pleasing whatever that has looked like in her first few decades.
20:36.430 --> 20:38.012
[SPEAKER_02]: How is she now working on that?
20:38.572 --> 20:40.534
[SPEAKER_02]: Can she now risk disappointing someone?
20:41.094 --> 20:42.755
[SPEAKER_02]: Saying no, would she want to say no?
20:42.956 --> 20:44.757
[SPEAKER_02]: Saying yes, when it's a true yes.
20:45.437 --> 20:48.520
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are her things to focus on and try to change.
20:49.020 --> 20:53.244
[SPEAKER_02]: And if she changes, it's much more likely she'll choose differently.
20:53.824 --> 21:03.446
[SPEAKER_02]: So I believe some of her work, some realizations of changes she's made within herself, is vital to regaining any kind of trust in her own judgment.
21:04.286 --> 21:06.986
[SPEAKER_02]: Now there's another strange thing that happens with trauma bonds.
21:07.566 --> 21:17.288
[SPEAKER_02]: The emotional roller coaster she's been on with both these men can make other relationships that don't have a roller coaster quality to them in a weird way not be as attractive.
21:17.968 --> 21:21.109
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't hold within them the drama of the trauma bond.
21:21.709 --> 21:32.455
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, they can seem kind of boring, so that's something to be very honest with yourself about, maybe she's not at all, maybe she's been very honest, but I really struggle with that and she may as well.
21:33.290 --> 21:36.132
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, let's get to her problem with her age.
21:36.712 --> 21:38.794
[SPEAKER_02]: She's lonely, I can hear that loud and clear.
21:39.514 --> 21:44.538
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you move into a new way of being a 50 or a 40 or whatever age?
21:45.418 --> 21:48.700
[SPEAKER_02]: If she's raised six children, wow, that's tiring.
21:49.401 --> 21:56.646
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe that fatigue is made her feel older than she is, maybe she's pre-menopausal, which can be very difficult to get through or menopausal.
21:57.566 --> 22:02.090
[SPEAKER_02]: The tea, not feeling attractive, having cloudy, thinking, emotional instability, you name it.
22:02.690 --> 22:05.332
[SPEAKER_02]: Being premenopausal or menopausal can cause it.
22:05.652 --> 22:08.735
[SPEAKER_02]: And you don't realize it's something that's happening to you.
22:08.815 --> 22:10.716
[SPEAKER_02]: You think it's something that you've just become.
22:11.477 --> 22:16.160
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd recommend meeting with someone who's an expert on a hormonal treatment, and that doesn't have to be a doctor.
22:16.621 --> 22:25.928
[SPEAKER_02]: There are people who are experts on hormonal advice out there, and actually I have one of those experts on self-work, a year or more ago, Donna Wijk, and I will include my episode with her.
22:26.788 --> 22:29.531
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll have the link for that conversation in your show notes.
22:30.832 --> 22:31.813
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, back to age.
22:32.453 --> 22:38.418
[SPEAKER_02]: For those of you who have been a part of the self-work family for a while now, you know that I began this podcast when I was 62.
22:39.499 --> 22:41.461
[SPEAKER_02]: I felt way too old.
22:42.242 --> 22:45.485
[SPEAKER_02]: I questioned whether anyone would want to tune in to hear what I had to say.
22:45.545 --> 22:50.689
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I had decades of experiences with therapist, but would my actual age be a problem?
22:51.170 --> 22:51.570
[SPEAKER_02]: I get it.
22:52.070 --> 22:53.171
[SPEAKER_02]: I get that she's struggling.
22:54.032 --> 22:58.255
[SPEAKER_02]: But I also heard her say that her breakup was fairly new.
22:59.135 --> 23:01.536
[SPEAKER_02]: Please give yourself time.
23:02.237 --> 23:04.338
[SPEAKER_02]: Learn to be by yourself without the drama.
23:04.958 --> 23:10.402
[SPEAKER_02]: Work with a therapist or get some self-help books to help you figure out why you were choosing men such as this.
23:10.922 --> 23:13.784
[SPEAKER_02]: And dedicate yourself to change within yourself.
23:14.684 --> 23:15.565
[SPEAKER_02]: and one more thing.
23:16.205 --> 23:21.089
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the saddest things that I can hear someone say is, I waste it all those years.
23:21.730 --> 23:24.472
[SPEAKER_02]: Now they may quickly add except for the children or something like that.
23:25.253 --> 23:28.075
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure why this listener had to learn what she had to learn.
23:28.135 --> 23:33.259
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why many people that I've seen over the years had to learn the hard way as many of them say.
23:34.080 --> 23:39.244
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure why I looked at myself in the mirror in my 20s and was somehow okay with how I was living my life.
23:39.304 --> 23:41.065
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the story you heard from me last week.
23:41.705 --> 23:44.427
[SPEAKER_02]: But to this listener I'd say, you're where you are now.
23:45.088 --> 23:47.209
[SPEAKER_02]: Shame and regret will get you nowhere.
23:48.210 --> 23:52.553
[SPEAKER_02]: Accept yourself and accept that you've learned the way you learned.
23:52.693 --> 23:57.256
[SPEAKER_02]: So as you said yourself, your past can stay in the past.
23:58.297 --> 23:59.898
[SPEAKER_02]: And then focus on you for a while.
24:00.338 --> 24:07.840
[SPEAKER_02]: To combat loneliness, I love Marissa Franco's book, Plotonic, as she discusses how much meaning and connection we can find in our friendships.
24:08.300 --> 24:14.542
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead of idealizing romantic love, learn something new, watch a sunset by yourself and truly enjoy it.
24:15.542 --> 24:18.983
[SPEAKER_02]: That way, if and when you choose to date a guy, it won't be out of need.
24:19.643 --> 24:21.143
[SPEAKER_02]: It'll be out of choice.
24:22.104 --> 24:26.485
[SPEAKER_02]: Good luck to both of you, and thank you so much for sending in a voicemail.
24:37.747 --> 24:45.496
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm still flying a bit high from my TEDx on how to recognize perfectly hidden pressure and hit the 2 million views mark.
24:46.518 --> 24:49.461
[SPEAKER_02]: It really makes me so determined to get out my message.
24:49.521 --> 24:54.768
[SPEAKER_02]: I do have another book or it's a workbook coming out on perfectly hidden depression in April of next year.
24:55.448 --> 24:57.549
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be very different from my first book.
24:58.090 --> 25:07.455
[SPEAKER_02]: It's written, so I know it is, and it's really kind of a stand-alone book, and it's also something you don't have to read from start to finish, which is the way I suggest to reading the first book.
25:07.856 --> 25:23.385
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a book you can pick up, use whatever time you have available to do the exercises as we sort of plunge into each trait by itself, and you don't even have to consider yourself a perfectionist, but I will have more about that closer to the time it's being published.
25:24.125 --> 25:31.028
[SPEAKER_02]: If you'd like to join my Facebook group, which is a closed group, it's Facebook.com slash groups slash self work.
25:31.068 --> 25:35.410
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a little more than 4,000 members, and it's really great support.
25:35.450 --> 25:36.691
[SPEAKER_02]: You laugh, you cry.
25:36.711 --> 25:38.091
[SPEAKER_02]: You hear stories.
25:38.151 --> 25:40.052
[SPEAKER_02]: We keep politics and religion out of it.
25:40.192 --> 25:40.913
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not allowed.
25:41.733 --> 25:43.874
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of people there feel very safe.
25:44.134 --> 25:48.896
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to have you there that's facebook.com slash groups slash self work.
25:49.316 --> 25:51.397
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, the original book perfectly hidden.
25:51.417 --> 25:56.220
[SPEAKER_02]: The pression is still available in ebook, audio book or paperback.
25:57.160 --> 26:09.625
[SPEAKER_02]: maybe you're like many of the people who've contacted me and said I've really sort of had to grow used to the idea that my perfectionism is not my best friend and then it does have some qualities to it that maybe I need to look at.
26:10.505 --> 26:12.326
[SPEAKER_02]: If you need to read it, I hope you will.
26:13.128 --> 26:14.549
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you again for being here.
26:15.090 --> 26:21.196
[SPEAKER_02]: If this is your first time, if this is your 300th time, I really, really am so glad you're here.
26:21.916 --> 26:28.242
[SPEAKER_02]: You can always leave me a message at S. Dr. Margaret at Dr. Margaretweather.com or leave me a speak-put message at these folks today.
26:28.983 --> 26:34.246
[SPEAKER_02]: You can find speakpipe in the show notes or on my website at Dr. Margaret Weatherford.com.
26:35.006 --> 26:36.167
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so grateful you're here.
26:36.807 --> 26:39.989
[SPEAKER_02]: Please take care of yourself, your loved ones, and your community.
26:40.689 --> 26:43.711
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Dr. Margaret, and this has been Self Work.
