00:00:01:02 - 00:00:14:07
Intro
Fit for his.
00:00:14:09 - 00:00:17:09
Intro
Town.
00:00:17:12 - 00:00:29:06
Intro
I'd like to invite you. I know town.
00:00:29:09 - 00:00:35:16
Intro
Blah blah blah blah blah blah. Do you stop? Can you stop? Blah blah blah blah blah blah.
00:00:35:18 - 00:00:38:19
Intro
Can you stop pulling me? Stop.
00:00:38:21 - 00:01:05:09
Jason Sprinkel
Well, welcome. We are here today with Doctor Michael Sharp. He's the secretary treasurer of the Alabama ministry network. Before that, he pastored in the Birmingham area. He is one of doctor EBS and my I think favorite people. Yeah, we love discussing. We love interacting with with Michael Sharp. Doctor Sharp today, everyone is an armchair theologian. We've got the internet, we've got YouTube, we've got all of these sources online.
00:01:05:10 - 00:01:27:28
Jason Sprinkel
Is there still a place there was once upon a time where the pastor, the local pastor, really was the local theologian. They had all of that information. They disseminated that to their congregations, to their community. But with the internet, is it still relevant? Is there a place today for for the pastor to be the the local theologian?
00:01:28:00 - 00:02:02:05
Michael Sharp
Well, first of all, thank to, Bob. And thank you, Jason, for inviting me. I wasn't expecting that, so I didn't come prepared, but, here we go. So, I think it's essential that the, lead pastor, helped by his, associate pastors and elders. I think it in searching for the lead pastor to be the primary theologian, for shepherding and growth in the feeding and care, of the flock of the local church.
00:02:02:08 - 00:02:44:05
Michael Sharp
You know, there's a lot of there are a lot of voices out, in social media on, Christian television and, internet, but, they're not all trustworthy. Yeah. And we need a local pastor who is trustworthy. And, hopefully one who is properly trained and properly formed. It's, essential. And it's essential that they have that training you know, Peter, in one of his epistles, he warns his readers that a lot of untrained teachers, are around even in those days, New Testament times, and they cannot even understand the letters of Paul correctly.
00:02:44:12 - 00:03:08:18
Michael Sharp
And they teach error and they lead themselves to destruction. And by by linkage, the whoever hears and believes them. Yeah. Now, the New Testament letter was the easiest of all genres to understand, and his readers and listeners were, familiar with that genre. They weren't separated between. And so if that's the case, then how much more so now.
00:03:08:18 - 00:03:23:28
Michael Sharp
So we absolutely need pastors who are theologians, constantly learning, constantly growing, constantly deepening their knowledge of the word of God and ability to, preach it, teach it, apply it.
00:03:24:01 - 00:03:51:12
Bob Eby
You know, when you talk about that piece, it's everybody is a theologian and in the sense that everybody has something to say about God, but you, you really zeroed in on the fact that that we want to be well-prepared, well-formed theologians right now. You know, just knowing you and our, our friendship, you know, I know you did a, a bachelor's degree in a in a state school, in a in a in a university setting.
00:03:51:14 - 00:03:55:08
Bob Eby
I know you studied some economics. And what was it?
00:03:55:10 - 00:04:01:06
Michael Sharp
I studied accounting, economics, political science, and, computer programing.
00:04:01:08 - 00:04:28:14
Bob Eby
Okay. And you worked in computer programing after graduation, right? Some levels, ten years. Ten years. Oh, I didn't realize it was ten full years. And then you. And then you came to AGT. She came to the seminary, and then Beason, in Alabama. So those three forms of education, right? One, the broader education economics, but poli sci, all of these things.
00:04:28:16 - 00:04:36:01
Bob Eby
And then you did a, Pentecostal seminary degree and then, a non Pentecostal seminary.
00:04:36:03 - 00:04:36:19
Michael Sharp
00:04:36:22 - 00:05:04:05
Bob Eby
What did each of those environments grant to you in helping you form that person who became a pastor? And I would say this, right. One of the reasons we're having this conversation is that all of our conversations with you tend toward more thoughtful, reflective, you have deep concern for the theological formulation of, of the fellowship and of our ministers.
00:05:04:11 - 00:05:16:00
Bob Eby
So in your preparation, even even at the state school, what are things that you learned that helped to form you with this direction, this, this passion?
00:05:16:02 - 00:05:40:23
Michael Sharp
Right. Well, of course, I was raised Pentecostal, did not serve God, during my teenage years. Came to Christ, right before I was to matriculate at the state university. So God ruined a lot of my plans, and, thank God. But, Yeah, I did continue on through that education, and I have been really blessed, Bob, in my educational journey.
00:05:40:26 - 00:06:07:18
Michael Sharp
I have had, I've been at excellent schools. Yeah. Excellent schools, had good profs. And so, and I understand not everyone is gifted with that. And so I, I learned to think critically. Yeah, I learned to research carefully. I was always taught that it was required, not to listen to just one side of a story.
00:06:07:21 - 00:06:32:01
Michael Sharp
Any story, but to examine the truth, to search for truth. Scripture exalts that. Yes, constantly. And from Old Testament through the new. We're commanded to love the truth, to search truth for the truth. And, and of course, to be guided by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. Number one and one of the names for Jesus is the truth.
00:06:32:02 - 00:06:57:01
Michael Sharp
Yeah. And so, I learned I had an excellent foundation at a state university, but I did have to I wanted to pursue my education when I finally surrendered to go into the full time preaching ministry. Yeah, against my will. Initially. Yeah, for sure. But, I, came to move my family out here, worked full time, went to grad school full time.
00:06:57:03 - 00:07:14:01
Michael Sharp
I got a great education there. And again, my professors were, godly men and women who knew their subject. They were formed well, spiritually. They were educated well, formally. And, they prepared me.
00:07:14:03 - 00:07:30:01
Bob Eby
You know, let me ask you this. Who, in your time here and I'm sure you could name a bunch, but who was maybe one professor that that left a really lasting mark. And what about that professor? Made that so impactful?
00:07:30:03 - 00:08:00:17
Michael Sharp
It would be hard to name one. Yeah. The, I had great prophets, New Testament, West Smith, Old Testament, Stan Horton, Ray living and all of blessed memory, and historical theologians, the golden era here. I believed, with, Doctor William Menzies, Edith Bloom Hoffer and Gary McGee. And I think that, the historical theologians made a profound impact on me.
00:08:00:17 - 00:08:34:09
Michael Sharp
All three of them, they, were faithful to our tradition, but they emphasized that we we constantly needed to be learning. We needed to be submitted to, the word of God, to each other and to the broader body of Christ. You know, we were constantly, regularly, warned, do not and do not become immune to correction by the larger body of Christ or by your brothers and sisters.
00:08:34:09 - 00:08:57:22
Michael Sharp
They used, Jesus words to his disciples, in the Gospels, when the Holy Spirit is come, he will lead you into all truth. Well, all those pronouns in that whole section are plural. Yeah. Jesus never promised to lead Peter alone into all truth. So who will I ever think I am to think that I'm going to learn all truth by revelation, or even learn new truth by revelation?
00:08:57:22 - 00:09:23:23
Michael Sharp
So, they, really conditioned us to be deeply formed spiritually by the word of God, by the spirit, and by, wise people of God. I went on to, and to they, you know, they were very honest about the, the, never ending innovations in the Pentecostal charismatic movement.
00:09:23:29 - 00:09:27:26
Bob Eby
We're open. Right? We're open. And we sometimes turned into that openness.
00:09:27:26 - 00:10:00:16
Michael Sharp
Yeah. And, having had been personally exposed and my family exposed to certain aberrations. Sure. Within the Pentecostal movement, in my younger years, I saw clearly the need for careful education, careful formation and accountability, and then went on to basin a school, you know, denominational at a great Baptist school, Sanford University. But the beast and Divinity interdenominational, very open to Pentecostals and but multi, disciplinary ecumenical.
00:10:00:18 - 00:10:32:03
Michael Sharp
And so that was a wonderful environment. But again, you know, we were drilled on, orthodoxy, within the broad definition of it, with several faith traditions, including Pentecostals there. But to search the scriptures carefully and constantly to be always open to correction, because the New Testament warns, continually. Yeah. Regarding false teachers, winds of doctrine, and so forth.
00:10:32:05 - 00:11:01:21
Michael Sharp
And so, the and the person on the front line of all of this shepherding the congregation is the pastor. Yeah, it's the pastor. And when we looked at the New Testament and the earliest church we saw, you know, the the formation and the, maturing and the discipling of the pastors and their elders and their deacons and building out from there, you know, and, and with the church as a discipleship movement.
00:11:01:23 - 00:11:31:09
Michael Sharp
And so, I was always formed in that direction. And as a Pentecostal, you know, lifelong, you do see a lot of damage that's done. Yeah. With, bad teaching, poor teaching, bad application and acculturation, which I think is one of the greatest dangers and, compromises that I see. You know, in America as well, a lot of acculturation and syncretism going on.
00:11:31:12 - 00:11:49:16
Michael Sharp
And if you're not deeply immersed in the word and in the history of the church, yeah, you won't see it. You'll be blinded by the lens of your culture. Yeah. And, and so it's just it's just very important all that work together for me, it's a lifelong process. I know it's not easy, but I think God expects us of it.
00:11:49:17 - 00:11:53:04
Michael Sharp
We're going to stand before Christ to give an account for what we teach the people of God.
00:11:53:06 - 00:12:22:23
Bob Eby
What? Where would you evaluate where we're at? So you've given us two big things, right? Deeply immersed in the word, shaped, informed by the truth of Scripture, continually open to its, correction and guidance. But also the other pieces that you've mentioned is that we are part of the broad stream of the church that that goes back and and we have a tendency we, we are bloom off for for one, she talked about us being a restoration movement.
00:12:22:23 - 00:12:41:24
Bob Eby
The problem with and we are the problem with restoration movements is they see the church began great. And then it disappeared for 2000 years. And it finally got right when we showed back up again. But we're not that right. We're deeply tied into the history of the church right now. So let's when were you hear it at Eagles?
00:12:41:25 - 00:12:42:07
Bob Eby
What year?
00:12:42:13 - 00:12:53:12
Michael Sharp
I was here from, 83 through 85. Okay. I think I matriculated in the fall of 82, I think. Okay. But, you know, 82, 83, 83, 84, 84, 85. Okay.
00:12:53:14 - 00:13:24:07
Bob Eby
MDiv, where are we at today? And this is good, bad or otherwise? It's not a set up to it. We have recency bias, right? It's either easy to see today as a golden age or today as a, backslidden age. But let's be balanced. Where are we today compared to where we were in the 80s? In understanding, keeping deeply, biblically informed, but also under our understanding, our place within the broader stream as ministers within the Assemblies of God.
00:13:24:07 - 00:13:25:01
Bob Eby
Where are we?
00:13:25:03 - 00:13:59:12
Michael Sharp
Well, you know, like a, Dickens wrote, I think it's sometimes it's it's the best of times and the worst of times. And so you know, there are think things that are better now in Pentecostal formation, in education than they were in the 80s. Some things I think, there is, you know, more openness among some among the rank and file, I think, more openness to a broader range of, theology izing theologians scholarship.
00:13:59:14 - 00:14:41:29
Michael Sharp
At the same time, there is a, I think a greater pressure than ever before to produce, numbers, frankly. And the old phrase nickels and noses. Yeah. Right. And, you know, many times we're not really questioned about how we do it as long as we do it. But the good point, the only way to build a biblical congregation, and to pastor biblically, is, to follow the Scripture closely, which involves all the things I said and to constantly be growing, be challenged by the word washed and changed by the Word of God.
00:14:42:01 - 00:15:26:19
Michael Sharp
And, never be satisfied. And that takes work. It's not, an easy or a simple matter. And, I think many times today there are so many options presented to younger ministers who, for, role models and styles and content and preaching that's more designed to market. Yeah. Brand or market, the gospel so-called. Yeah. And to make it easier, for, you know, people to come and be attracted, then, there is a, a willingness to submit to the long and difficult journey of constant education, formation and learning.
00:15:26:19 - 00:15:51:27
Michael Sharp
I, I encourage people, as our School of Ministry director and in credential interviews, you know, constantly be reading and growing us read things that challenge you read things written by, excellent scholars from other faith traditions in the, in the, Orthodox and Evangelical Christian churches. And don't get caught in a vicious reading cycle of reading. Pastor.
00:15:51:27 - 00:16:10:17
Michael Sharp
Wonderful book does. You're telling you how to be as wonderful as he is, right? Yeah. And how to build your church quickly and easily. Because, you know, ten years from now, you'll look at all of those titles, on your shelf and you'll wonder, you know, what's that? And why in the world did I spend money on that?
00:16:10:19 - 00:16:11:14
Jason Sprinkel
They don't age well.
00:16:11:14 - 00:16:34:00
Michael Sharp
They do not age well, you know, read, read, scholars and scholarship. That's been around a while. Yeah. And that really, hews closely to the word of God. You know, it's like, you know, even William Seymour said once a vision, if we have if we have stuck too closely, to the Bible, you know, we will take that up with the Lord when we meet him.
00:16:34:03 - 00:16:39:00
Michael Sharp
I'm paraphrasing him. I'm paraphrasing him. But, and so,
00:16:39:02 - 00:16:53:16
Jason Sprinkel
Will you embody that? Very well. One of, you know, we're friends on Facebook, and so all summer long, I you had, I think, a month's worth of reading material that you were, you were going through and there were several books that you were reading, and I was reading a couple of them at the same time. I thought, all right, I'm in good company.
00:16:53:16 - 00:17:03:25
Jason Sprinkel
If if Michael Sharp is recommending this book, I'm doing okay. But you do you recommend to the Alabama ministry network, you recommend in your in your is it a monthly newsletter that the it's.
00:17:03:25 - 00:17:04:24
Michael Sharp
Bi monthly bi.
00:17:04:24 - 00:17:12:26
Jason Sprinkel
Monthly. So I know you have a recommended book or a book review. So how how do you evaluate a book.
00:17:12:29 - 00:17:13:15
Michael Sharp
Well that.
00:17:13:15 - 00:17:15:24
Jason Sprinkel
You recommend that you're going to recommend. Yeah.
00:17:15:26 - 00:17:48:17
Michael Sharp
I, I try to look for something, if I can find something by a scholar or writer that I already know is solid, insightful, honest. And, I, I look for that number one. Number two. Oh, are they dealing with a subject that's important in the life of the church today? Oh, good. And, or something that, leads to a better understanding of the word of God, you know, certain passage, certain books, certain topic or issue.
00:17:48:20 - 00:18:14:13
Michael Sharp
So I evaluate it that way. And, you know, frankly, for a quick, for quick evaluations, you know, you can, hop on, to Amazon, for instance. Yeah. And, you know, you can, read samples, you can read the content to read the endorsements. Yeah. And to make sure that, you know, those who are recommending the book are, of similar caliber people and writers.
00:18:14:16 - 00:18:35:21
Michael Sharp
And, you know, there are various ways to do that and, read, read the reviews and the reviewers, online. And so, and of course, you know, I don't, I don't review publicly all of the books that I read. So I told people for 20 years, I, they ask you, what are you reading right now?
00:18:35:21 - 00:18:49:00
Michael Sharp
I say, well, I usually don't tell folks what I'm reading right now. It's safer to tell them what I was reading 15 years ago. Yeah, yeah, that's what I was reading 15 years ago is now more acceptable and, widespread. Are you telling.
00:18:49:00 - 00:18:51:18
Bob Eby
Me you push the boundaries a little bit on what you're reading?
00:18:51:20 - 00:18:54:10
Jason Sprinkel
No, no,
00:18:54:13 - 00:19:04:06
Michael Sharp
I only read books that were written by people like me. In my my faith tradition. So, you know what?
00:19:04:08 - 00:19:22:27
Jason Sprinkel
In all of our conversations, is, one of the things that I've really appreciated about you is that you're not afraid of hard questions. You're you always have a thoughtful response. You know, you're you don't shut down, an argument. You're you're thoughtful in in the way you approach these things. You we need we need more leaders like that.
00:19:22:29 - 00:19:24:17
Jason Sprinkel
And we need more pastors like that.
00:19:24:18 - 00:19:47:29
Michael Sharp
Yeah. And, you know, sometimes, in our circles in our faith tradition, in our particular fellowship, we've always had, extraordinarily bright. Yes. And some, well, a few well-educated leaders or scholars, but, you know, I, you know, you don't like other people talking about your family. Yeah, yeah. But yes.
00:19:48:02 - 00:19:48:21
Bob Eby
We can talk about our.
00:19:48:21 - 00:19:50:04
Michael Sharp
Family and talk about your family or you want.
00:19:50:05 - 00:19:51:20
Bob Eby
We can. We got lots of things.
00:19:51:20 - 00:20:02:26
Michael Sharp
About our fans. So, I, we have not always been exactly the best home for our friends. Two scholarship or scholars.
00:20:02:29 - 00:20:03:06
Jason Sprinkel
For.
00:20:03:06 - 00:20:28:19
Michael Sharp
Education. No matter what anybody wants to say or try to defend us. We have a very strong intellect, anti-intellectual bent, and a very strong anti educational bent, in the Pentecostal tradition and in our fellowship as well. And I say that from a generational family. Yeah. You know, my wife had a great grandfather at, Hot Springs.
00:20:28:19 - 00:20:46:07
Michael Sharp
Wow. 1914. We have, one of his Bibles that, he took there with him and, you know, kind of a Pentecostal relic, tell people when it's in the service, the, you know, the level of anointing, and, oh, it goes away. So, it's a little, you know, we have to be honest about ourselves that we're going to grow.
00:20:46:09 - 00:21:04:07
Michael Sharp
Yeah. And so, you know, we have to, I'm an encourager. I know this is my alma mater here, I guess, but I encourage people to not get siloed in their education as well, to get at least one, degree from a nun, Assemblies of God or Pentecostal school.
00:21:04:09 - 00:21:05:09
Bob Eby
We affirm that here this.
00:21:05:13 - 00:21:32:22
Michael Sharp
And, it enriches our tradition. And I have studied broadly enough and widely enough, both formally and informally. I can assure you that, you know, education and learning and the broader family of God is no threat. Yes. To, our Pentecostal spirituality and life. Absolutely. Not at all. Yes. But it better informs us. And it builds better banks, you know, and better insights.
00:21:32:24 - 00:21:49:14
Michael Sharp
You know, we we like to say, speak about the Holy Spirit. And, you know, we talk about how, you know, nobody knows, as Jesus said, you know, where the spirit comes from, you know, and, he, he moves us a wind and we don't know where he's going. But many times we have not really believed that.
00:21:49:15 - 00:22:16:00
Michael Sharp
Yeah, we have not believed that the Holy Spirit could speak to and through, the Wesleyan or the, reformed brothers or other faith traditions, and, that's that's arrogant. Yeah. We should not be like that. We should be humble, receptive to any and all insights that are accurate and true. And that help us because it will help us better understand the Lord and his word and his work, his mission.
00:22:16:02 - 00:22:25:08
Michael Sharp
And I understand ourselves where we came from. And, and it will only add insight. It will never hurt us. It will only help us.
00:22:25:08 - 00:22:34:24
Jason Sprinkel
Those are those are fruit of the spirit type type things. So are you saying that Pentecostal people filled with the Holy Spirit can also display the fruit of the spirit? Is it? Oh man, I, I don't know about you.
00:22:34:24 - 00:22:37:27
Bob Eby
Much better with the games. We're much better with the gifts.
00:22:37:27 - 00:22:56:24
Michael Sharp
I'm, you know, I have taught through the years that, the Spirit's primary function is to sanctify us and cleanse us and form us to be more like Jesus, and then to empower us to serve and be more like Jesus. But yeah, the character transformation comes first.
00:22:56:26 - 00:23:29:03
Bob Eby
I love what you brought out, and I think, I think it deserves just one more emphasis. There is not a, a struggle between thoughtful, deep, formative education and exploration of the deep tradition of theology and biblical study that everybody's always been afraid that that will rob us of the spirit, that will rob us of the dynamic of the spirit.
00:23:29:08 - 00:24:02:22
Bob Eby
You know, the joke that we hear. And let me just tell you, we at the seminary, the professors at the seminary really are tired of the joke. You know, while you're going off to cemetery, right, that it's going to it's going to kill you spiritually. And I have found, you know, you know, where my Pentecostal theology and depth became even more solidified was when my I studied in my master's degree at a non Pentecostal in a historically secessionist seminary, and I took a class on new metallurgy.
00:24:02:24 - 00:24:25:00
Bob Eby
And the professor was very open to Pentecostalism. But many of the students work and we read books that weren't. And you know what I found that that what I had had is the primary critiques of Pentecostalism in my younger years that were presented to me were straw men. They weren't the best. They weren't the best attacks on our doctrine in seminary.
00:24:25:00 - 00:24:46:01
Bob Eby
I read the best attacks. And you know what I found out? We hold up jobs. Absolutely. We hold up. Just. And I came out of that experience having read the best of secessionist theology and what. Nope, I am I am fully Pentecostal and more deeply and more securely Pentecostal.
00:24:46:07 - 00:25:21:11
Michael Sharp
Right. And I think I am too, I, you know, I never faced any direct attacks on, my Pentecostal, faith life and spirituality, at recent events, Divinity school at all. That's not the way they operate at all. I, I, faced some opposition at State University. But, and again, I know where I'm sitting, but my sympathies are more with, our, college ministry.
00:25:21:13 - 00:25:57:12
Michael Sharp
Yeah. And college missionaries who have to sit and endure us and hear us decry all secular education. Right. And, that is not necessary. Yeah. And so, I'm with you. You know, I my faith has only been strengthened. I've changed. I've grown through the years. Sure. If you've never changed or grown, there's a lot of arrogance and resistance and a lack of humility and teachable is there that, you know, you may recognize in others or think you do, but you're blind to the, log in your own eye.
00:25:57:14 - 00:26:33:29
Michael Sharp
We have to be, open to growth. And that means change education. It's not mere indoctrination. Yeah, there's a difference. In many times in our circles, all we want is indoctrination. Yeah. But, you know, fundamentalism has always been inimical to Pentecostal life and spirituality. It really is, I agree. So, we have nothing to fear. And that's why I ask people many times, I ask that open ended question on my, Facebook page recently of what are you afraid and why am.
00:26:34:02 - 00:26:49:09
Michael Sharp
And, boy, did I get some different responses. But I mean that for me, that is, and they were humorous and one was very, very serious. And shared privately. But, we don't have to be afraid.
00:26:49:09 - 00:26:49:21
Bob Eby
Yeah.
00:26:49:21 - 00:27:13:28
Michael Sharp
That's good. The command of the Lord Jesus is. Fear not. Yeah. Do not be afraid. And, I am not afraid of the attacks of this world. Amen. Or the attacks of, situation ism. Any brothers or sisters who believe that, I am not afraid. And I'm not afraid to explore. Yeah. I'm not afraid to grow. Because my faith in the Lord Jesus has never been.
00:27:13:28 - 00:27:14:25
Bob Eby
Secure.
00:27:14:27 - 00:27:42:16
Michael Sharp
In my Pentecostal life. And spirituality has never been threatened. Yeah, it is secure, and I'm only more free and more joyous and more thankful today than ever before as a theologian, as a pastor. And, I'm so excited about to being retired. I would love to be able to continue to answer questions. Yeah, from younger ministers and, to provide resources.
00:27:42:16 - 00:28:05:06
Michael Sharp
But, we'll see. My family wants me to be fully retired for a season. So, but, you know, and I appreciate you guys very much. I want to say that this is unsolicited. And, yeah, I didn't know I was going to be here, but, Bob and Jason are just phenomenal, people for, viewing and listening audience.
00:28:05:09 - 00:28:10:02
Michael Sharp
So keep those cards and letters coming in. And, is this on that station down in Del Rio? Yeah.
00:28:10:05 - 00:28:11:25
Bob Eby
That thing.
00:28:11:27 - 00:28:40:27
Michael Sharp
You know, 10,000,000,000W reaches the dark side of the moon, I think. And, and so, and I do love and appreciate agents. Yeah. As, as well as all my other, educators and, you know, and guys like Gordon Fee, it's so profound. And, you know, that those voices, elite scholarship, and there are many out there today, such as, you know, Craig Keener.
00:28:40:28 - 00:28:59:23
Michael Sharp
Yeah, yeah. And, numerous other ones. I can name some right here, you know, Ward home and and so forth. And so, and, you know, Pentecostal scholarship, is, is, flourishing around the world. It is a majority world especially. They are taking the lead now. And we need to be humble and respect that.
00:28:59:23 - 00:29:00:08
Bob Eby
Yeah.
00:29:00:10 - 00:29:25:02
Michael Sharp
And let them hear what they have to say, hear their insights and, learn from them and change and grow. And so I, encourage, you know, any, any who are listening, especially pastors. What are you afraid of? You have no need to fear education, right? We are commanded to learn, to grow, to work correctly, handle the Word of God.
00:29:25:04 - 00:29:36:25
Michael Sharp
Be diligent in applying ourselves to the Scripture, to prayer, to receiving, correction and instruction. We will answer to God.
00:29:36:27 - 00:29:37:15
Bob Eby
Yeah.
00:29:37:17 - 00:30:19:08
Michael Sharp
Bob, you know, we're going to give an answer for everything we teach the flock of God, and they're holy. The people of God are holy. There are holy charge, and the word is a holy charge. So, you know, and be careful who you who you model yourself after young pastors and ministers, you know, be careful of the models you follow, because, a lot of the models that were proposed to us, to build, bigger barns and expand our fences, have not fared well lately.
00:30:19:10 - 00:30:37:06
Jason Sprinkel
So before we left it, I was going to ask for one piece of advice before you retire. But that was it. I think you already gave it. That was excellent advice. Yeah, well, Doctor Sharp, we like to ask our guests to just pray for those listening for the church, for these animals of God. Whatever Lord lays on your heart, I suppose, is most Pentecostal way for me to frame that.
00:30:37:10 - 00:30:40:03
Jason Sprinkel
Sure. Would you would you would you pray for us?
00:30:40:03 - 00:30:44:17
Michael Sharp
Absolutely. Let's pray.
00:30:44:19 - 00:31:09:10
Michael Sharp
Father, we do thank you for another day in which to bear the name of Jesus Christ for a lost and a dying world. We remember and thank you for the day, the hour, the night that you touched our hearts and called us to Christ. When you fill us with your spirit when you called us into ministry, we thank you for the people who have poured into our lives, and we thank you for all of the gifts and graces you give us.
00:31:09:13 - 00:31:34:23
Michael Sharp
We ask, father, that you would touch all who hear, and that you would touch the church in in the world and in this nation today, that you would lead us to a pure devotion to Jesus, lead us to our passion, a hunger for the Word of God, a humility before the word remind us of the gravity of the task and the immensity of the task that you've entrusted to us.
00:31:34:25 - 00:31:47:09
Michael Sharp
Remind us that the people of God are holy. Help us to be bold, to be brave, to fear not to speak the truth when we see it in the Scripture.
00:31:47:12 - 00:32:14:14
Michael Sharp
We thank you that you enable us, to climb up out of our valleys, onto the mountain, and to see what's beyond, and to see further than those we lead, and to have the courage to speak the truth to those we lead. We thank you, father, for the privilege. Bless my brothers here today. We pray and have mercy on our fellowship and our nation and the church.
00:32:14:16 - 00:32:17:21
Michael Sharp
In Christ's name we pray. Amen. Amen.
00:32:17:24 - 00:32:19:06
Bob Eby
Thank you so much for your time.
00:32:19:07 - 00:32:24:06
Michael Sharp
Thank you for inviting me. It was a surprise. Yeah. So, what a joy. But I appreciate it.
00:32:24:08 - 00:32:58:05
Bob Eby
God bless you. I don't want to be Rear Admiral George W Melville. His list of accomplishments as a Civil War sailor, polar explorer and engineer and chief of the Navy are extraordinary. So why exactly is he an unworthy exemplar for all of his genius in steel and steam? He may be best remembered for his hot take two years before Orville and Wilbur made history at Kitty Hawk.
00:32:58:07 - 00:33:29:05
Bob Eby
He pontificated from his spectacularly bearded face. There is no basis for the ardent hopes and positive statements made as to the safe and successful use of the dirigible balloon or flying machine, or both, for commercial transportation or as weapons of war, and that therefore it would be a wrong, whether willful or unknowing, to lead the people and perhaps governments at this time to believe the contrary.
00:33:29:07 - 00:34:00:29
Bob Eby
He also used words like impossible and absurd. In his article, there is always a danger of making a fool out of oneself with knee jerk reactions against the new. The emerging in the latest technological advancements of the day, especially when they're in their infancy, fully aware of the risk of becoming the Admiral Melville of humble ethics. Allow me to wade into the topic of the preacher and the use of AI.
00:34:01:02 - 00:34:24:17
Bob Eby
This morning I tested grok to give me the top three commentaries on the pastoral epistles written within the last 30 years. This is a topic that I'm familiar with because I'm teaching a seminary class on that very subject right now. The three recommendations that it offered were certainly on my short list of the best commentaries available. I for the win.
00:34:24:19 - 00:35:00:17
Bob Eby
Does this test demonstrate that I should be a primary tool in sermon prep? I would say an emphatic no. Why not? I could make all of the arguments that I is known to make things up. Misunderstand. Nuance. Strip the beating affective heart out of communication. Maybe even be forms of plagiarism or mislead people who sacrificially give to support the work of ministry in your assembly by passing off as your work product a sermon that you did not write.
00:35:00:19 - 00:35:29:24
Bob Eby
I could question whether the Holy Spirit can even indwell or anoint a digital electronic device. I could keep going with a myriad of other potential ethical concerns that I have, but that is not for today. The reality is that many of the issues could be resolved with continued evolution of the technology, or increased transparency from the preachers. This is what Melville didn't account for unforeseen and rapid advancement in the technology.
00:35:29:26 - 00:35:58:01
Bob Eby
My primary concern does not pivot on the quality, capacity or improvement to the technology. I question the wholesale wholesale adoption of AI for the writing of sermons. For the same reason, I would have scolded preachers for pilfering the sermons of noteworthy proclaimers from the internet, CDs, tapes or books from the past. Sure, I can be a great tool to point you to resources.
00:35:58:04 - 00:36:29:14
Bob Eby
Maybe create an organizational structure for the sermon, just like the aforementioned resources could have. But there is something else that is missing. Those who labor. Yes, I said labor at the task of sermon preparation are, according to acts six four, called to be devoted to be busily engaged in, or maybe more casually stated, spend a lot of time in prayer and ministry or serving of the word.
00:36:29:16 - 00:36:57:03
Bob Eby
We are not called to simply speak sermons, but are called to serve the Word of God. There is an irrevocable mandate on the preacher to be formed by the word, not just parrot the words of the text, or worse, the words of someone or something else. Be it commentary, sermon, book, grok, Gemini, ChatGPT, or any other AI tool.
00:36:57:05 - 00:37:40:11
Bob Eby
Are there good ways to use AI? Yep. Are there things that can be appropriately streamlined in the process of serving the Word of God by using AI? Yep. But if you're looking for AI to write your sermons, or you're indulging it too far just so you can have time for other things, you're missing the main thing, preacher. If you are focused on how to spend less time in the study of God's Word, to be fully prepared to communicate and contextualize it to the people you have been called to serve, you picked the wrong job, and you've assigned the wrong priorities in your ministry.
00:37:40:13 - 00:37:50:21
Bob Eby
If this makes me the humble article, Rear Admiral Melville, I'll wear that title with pride.
00:37:50:23 - 00:37:58:26
Jason Sprinkel
All right. Of all of the things we may talk about, this one probably has some personal attachment and and could create some angst, I suppose.
00:37:58:28 - 00:38:03:16
Bob Eby
Are we going to. Are we going to address a problem you have with your preaching? Because I've got a list.
00:38:03:18 - 00:38:16:05
Jason Sprinkel
I will tell you, it is a problem I have had with with my preaching in the past, though I probably don't think of it as a problem as often as I do. What about the length in time of sermons?
00:38:16:08 - 00:38:33:17
Bob Eby
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a real issue. It is. And I think it probably is a real issue for a great number of preachers, myself included. And I think the problem, the difficulty is I genuinely don't believe there is a right answer.
00:38:33:19 - 00:38:42:13
Jason Sprinkel
I think that is the problem. And it would be nice if we could give a hard and fast rule to this, and that would only get us into problems of trouble with with people who have different opinions.
00:38:42:13 - 00:39:01:11
Bob Eby
And, and I don't mind having a problem with people who have a difference of opinion. If I'm convinced that I'm right, but I'm not convinced them right on this. Because. Because there are vastly different settings, right? Yeah. If you're preaching a General Council keynote sermon.
00:39:01:11 - 00:39:03:09
Jason Sprinkel
I think that's unlikely for me.
00:39:03:11 - 00:39:27:05
Bob Eby
Don't sell yourself short, buddy. I mean, you're a man of God, good communicator of God. I don't think it has anything. The superintendent may just be calling you for two years from now. Yeah. That's true. But if you're doing that, there is an expectation of an hour in many things for sure. Many, at least historically. But if you're if you're preaching a youth service, a junior high youth service.
00:39:27:11 - 00:39:29:28
Jason Sprinkel
You get 12 minutes. Maybe, maybe.
00:39:30:00 - 00:39:43:22
Bob Eby
Yeah. You know, and so context does matter. It does matter. And again I gave extremes on the ends of there. But there's a lot of there's a lot of space on that continuum. And so we cannot say.
00:39:43:24 - 00:39:44:27
Jason Sprinkel
25 minutes is all you've.
00:39:44:27 - 00:39:45:02
Bob Eby
Got.
00:39:45:03 - 00:39:46:08
Jason Sprinkel
No you can't say that.
00:39:46:10 - 00:39:49:17
Bob Eby
No. Now, now here's the bigger underlying problem, I think.
00:39:49:18 - 00:40:01:00
Jason Sprinkel
And part of that too, is I have heard, I have said in sermons that I was on the edge of my seat for over an hour. Yeah. And other sermons. After 20 minutes, I was like, wrap it up, buddy. I am checked out.
00:40:01:01 - 00:40:09:14
Bob Eby
Which is also partly your settings, your expectations and the quality of the preacher. I think one of the big issues.
00:40:09:16 - 00:40:10:21
Jason Sprinkel
I'm already tired of hearing. You're right.
00:40:10:21 - 00:40:11:06
Bob Eby
I am.
00:40:11:06 - 00:40:13:09
Jason Sprinkel
Right now. Okay, this is all right.
00:40:13:10 - 00:40:14:09
Bob Eby
We're going to pull this back.
00:40:14:10 - 00:40:20:22
Jason Sprinkel
We're two minutes and 30s in, and I'm just like, wrap it up. What? Just say something. Sorry. Oh.
00:40:20:24 - 00:40:24:15
Bob Eby
And and I'm gonna say something here in about a second.
00:40:24:21 - 00:40:37:25
Jason Sprinkel
And all of us, all of us, even those watching, listening, have had people in our conversation in our congregations who who are like, pastor, I wish you could go another. You know, don't wrap it up quick, don't cut it short. And other people are like, oh my gosh.
00:40:37:25 - 00:40:53:13
Bob Eby
Well, I had a family leave the church because services were going too long. And by too long we're talking at the time, an hour and a half, and that included everything in the service. And they're like, this is going too long because the spirit of the Lord was moving in the church, and we went a little over that and went a little past noon.
00:40:53:16 - 00:41:19:11
Bob Eby
And they said, we don't want to come here anymore. And then I've had other people that that, I have been very critical pastor. You're too. You're too attuned to the clock, you know, but here's the problem that I would want to say is our tradition has a tendency to equate at times length of the sermon or the service with the anointing are nebulous.
00:41:19:11 - 00:41:20:13
Jason Sprinkel
Term spiritual.
00:41:20:13 - 00:41:48:07
Bob Eby
Or spirituality. That if it's longer, equates with more dynamic, more spiritually attuned, more spiritually, led. And, and I think first and foremost, before we talk about any metrics to evaluate the length of a sermon, the first thing we have to throw out is you cannot equate length of the service with the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
00:41:48:10 - 00:41:55:24
Bob Eby
It can't long services can be anointed. Short moments can be powerfully anointed.
00:41:55:25 - 00:41:59:24
Jason Sprinkel
The Holy Spirit by nature, God is beyond time. So you're saying you can't be.
00:41:59:27 - 00:42:01:02
Bob Eby
Bound by time?
00:42:01:05 - 00:42:01:25
Jason Sprinkel
Bound by. Yeah.
00:42:02:00 - 00:42:18:00
Bob Eby
Now, now let's bring it back. Yeah. I just want to be practical. Number one, I never want to preach in a way that the vast majority of my congregation is, is actively and eagerly awaiting it to end because they are weary of it.
00:42:18:02 - 00:42:35:12
Jason Sprinkel
Yeah. And that is something I think we have to we have to tune ourselves to, because it's easy for us as preachers to almost tune out some of that, what's happening in the audience. And we have to have is it humility? I'm not sure you're the virtue expert, but we have to be.
00:42:35:16 - 00:42:37:21
Bob Eby
Only in theory, not in practice.
00:42:37:23 - 00:42:41:08
Jason Sprinkel
We have to be attuned to what's happening.
00:42:41:08 - 00:43:01:19
Bob Eby
What's happening. Yeah, yeah. Because here's the other thing that as much as we've talked about congregation expectations, our congregational expectations are preachers can also be guilty. They're unspiritual because we are not paying attention that they're checking out on me or they're they're more concerned about getting out. Okay. Well, you got to be sensitive to what's happening in the setting.
00:43:01:24 - 00:43:11:27
Bob Eby
Number two, you have to be aware of what's happening with attention spans and you can fight it. You can argue against it, you can condemn it.
00:43:12:00 - 00:43:12:23
Jason Sprinkel
You can reality.
00:43:12:23 - 00:43:26:09
Bob Eby
But it is reality. We see this in our social media. Absolutely. You have like 10s people will watch a video and it doesn't matter how much great content is put into it by who puts it in there.
00:43:26:09 - 00:43:27:00
Jason Sprinkel
They're already moved.
00:43:27:00 - 00:43:29:29
Bob Eby
On 10s and they're done. And so.
00:43:29:29 - 00:43:31:05
Jason Sprinkel
And our congregants are used to.
00:43:31:07 - 00:43:50:00
Bob Eby
Viewing that's how they live their life that way. And, and 25 years ago, nobody would have had the gall to walk into my service bringing a novel or a book. Nobody would have walked in with a portable television under their arm and thought, well, if the pastor's boring, I'm going to read my book or I'm going to watch TV.
00:43:50:05 - 00:44:00:02
Bob Eby
But today, both of those things are available on cell phones that are in the pockets. And they will. And they do check out and actually.
00:44:00:05 - 00:44:08:09
Jason Sprinkel
It's right there in their hands. Right? A lot of our congregations are already engaging with the Bible. So when we ask them to turn to a passage of Scripture, they pull out their phone.
00:44:08:12 - 00:44:09:28
Bob Eby
And then that's not a condemnation of that.
00:44:09:29 - 00:44:18:18
Jason Sprinkel
No, no, no, absolutely not. But my point is that they're already on their phone. And if they get a little bit bored or distracted, they're going to what do they do? They just open a different app.
00:44:18:18 - 00:44:30:22
Bob Eby
So rather than talk about the exact amount of time, I know if you want me to give you a general, I'll give you a general. I think anything can be a 25 to 30. I agree at the the extremities for the modern American culture.
00:44:30:23 - 00:44:31:24
Jason Sprinkel
I think that's the case.
00:44:31:24 - 00:45:02:08
Bob Eby
But but beyond specific time, I would say this. Why don't we work on being compelling? Yes. Vivid preachers that create powerful word pictures with our word. Absolutely. Because that will compel let us learn to become better storytellers of the gospel. That's great. This is how Jesus, instead of spending all of our time worrying about an exact moment on the clock, which let's pay attention to the clock reasonably, but let's be better communicators of the gospel.
00:45:02:09 - 00:45:24:18
Bob Eby
Sure. But then also let us be aware of our setting. We will. We will invest thousands of dollars in missionaries going into foreign countries with the expectation that they will learn to contextualize the gospel. They will learn to communicate in the language they will understand now how to not offend in the culture. They will understand the mores they'll adopt, dress that will not hinder gospel proclamation.
00:45:24:24 - 00:45:38:16
Bob Eby
Well, friends, we are embedded in a culture true, and we need to understand who we're communicating with. And if they're turning you off because you're preaching too long, stop condemning them for that. And learned in culture or ministry.
00:45:38:16 - 00:45:56:06
Jason Sprinkel
And some of that culture is age, some of it is region, right? You can't even guarantee that that in the same district lines, at the same state lines, that that one congregation is going to be used to the same or able to put up with the same time frame that another congregation is. You have to learn the culture of where you're situated.
00:45:56:13 - 00:46:13:13
Bob Eby
So let's spend our time instead of obsessing about the exact amount of minutes. Sure, let's become more vivid, effective preachers. Let's in culture, eat the gospel in the setting in which we serve so that our people leave hearing God's Word and encountering the Spirit of God.
00:46:13:15 - 00:46:13:29
Jason Sprinkel
Excellent.
Intro
Fit for his.
00:00:14:09 - 00:00:17:09
Intro
Town.
00:00:17:12 - 00:00:29:06
Intro
I'd like to invite you. I know town.
00:00:29:09 - 00:00:35:16
Intro
Blah blah blah blah blah blah. Do you stop? Can you stop? Blah blah blah blah blah blah.
00:00:35:18 - 00:00:38:19
Intro
Can you stop pulling me? Stop.
00:00:38:21 - 00:01:05:09
Jason Sprinkel
Well, welcome. We are here today with Doctor Michael Sharp. He's the secretary treasurer of the Alabama ministry network. Before that, he pastored in the Birmingham area. He is one of doctor EBS and my I think favorite people. Yeah, we love discussing. We love interacting with with Michael Sharp. Doctor Sharp today, everyone is an armchair theologian. We've got the internet, we've got YouTube, we've got all of these sources online.
00:01:05:10 - 00:01:27:28
Jason Sprinkel
Is there still a place there was once upon a time where the pastor, the local pastor, really was the local theologian. They had all of that information. They disseminated that to their congregations, to their community. But with the internet, is it still relevant? Is there a place today for for the pastor to be the the local theologian?
00:01:28:00 - 00:02:02:05
Michael Sharp
Well, first of all, thank to, Bob. And thank you, Jason, for inviting me. I wasn't expecting that, so I didn't come prepared, but, here we go. So, I think it's essential that the, lead pastor, helped by his, associate pastors and elders. I think it in searching for the lead pastor to be the primary theologian, for shepherding and growth in the feeding and care, of the flock of the local church.
00:02:02:08 - 00:02:44:05
Michael Sharp
You know, there's a lot of there are a lot of voices out, in social media on, Christian television and, internet, but, they're not all trustworthy. Yeah. And we need a local pastor who is trustworthy. And, hopefully one who is properly trained and properly formed. It's, essential. And it's essential that they have that training you know, Peter, in one of his epistles, he warns his readers that a lot of untrained teachers, are around even in those days, New Testament times, and they cannot even understand the letters of Paul correctly.
00:02:44:12 - 00:03:08:18
Michael Sharp
And they teach error and they lead themselves to destruction. And by by linkage, the whoever hears and believes them. Yeah. Now, the New Testament letter was the easiest of all genres to understand, and his readers and listeners were, familiar with that genre. They weren't separated between. And so if that's the case, then how much more so now.
00:03:08:18 - 00:03:23:28
Michael Sharp
So we absolutely need pastors who are theologians, constantly learning, constantly growing, constantly deepening their knowledge of the word of God and ability to, preach it, teach it, apply it.
00:03:24:01 - 00:03:51:12
Bob Eby
You know, when you talk about that piece, it's everybody is a theologian and in the sense that everybody has something to say about God, but you, you really zeroed in on the fact that that we want to be well-prepared, well-formed theologians right now. You know, just knowing you and our, our friendship, you know, I know you did a, a bachelor's degree in a in a state school, in a in a in a university setting.
00:03:51:14 - 00:03:55:08
Bob Eby
I know you studied some economics. And what was it?
00:03:55:10 - 00:04:01:06
Michael Sharp
I studied accounting, economics, political science, and, computer programing.
00:04:01:08 - 00:04:28:14
Bob Eby
Okay. And you worked in computer programing after graduation, right? Some levels, ten years. Ten years. Oh, I didn't realize it was ten full years. And then you. And then you came to AGT. She came to the seminary, and then Beason, in Alabama. So those three forms of education, right? One, the broader education economics, but poli sci, all of these things.
00:04:28:16 - 00:04:36:01
Bob Eby
And then you did a, Pentecostal seminary degree and then, a non Pentecostal seminary.
00:04:36:03 - 00:04:36:19
Michael Sharp
00:04:36:22 - 00:05:04:05
Bob Eby
What did each of those environments grant to you in helping you form that person who became a pastor? And I would say this, right. One of the reasons we're having this conversation is that all of our conversations with you tend toward more thoughtful, reflective, you have deep concern for the theological formulation of, of the fellowship and of our ministers.
00:05:04:11 - 00:05:16:00
Bob Eby
So in your preparation, even even at the state school, what are things that you learned that helped to form you with this direction, this, this passion?
00:05:16:02 - 00:05:40:23
Michael Sharp
Right. Well, of course, I was raised Pentecostal, did not serve God, during my teenage years. Came to Christ, right before I was to matriculate at the state university. So God ruined a lot of my plans, and, thank God. But, Yeah, I did continue on through that education, and I have been really blessed, Bob, in my educational journey.
00:05:40:26 - 00:06:07:18
Michael Sharp
I have had, I've been at excellent schools. Yeah. Excellent schools, had good profs. And so, and I understand not everyone is gifted with that. And so I, I learned to think critically. Yeah, I learned to research carefully. I was always taught that it was required, not to listen to just one side of a story.
00:06:07:21 - 00:06:32:01
Michael Sharp
Any story, but to examine the truth, to search for truth. Scripture exalts that. Yes, constantly. And from Old Testament through the new. We're commanded to love the truth, to search truth for the truth. And, and of course, to be guided by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. Number one and one of the names for Jesus is the truth.
00:06:32:02 - 00:06:57:01
Michael Sharp
Yeah. And so, I learned I had an excellent foundation at a state university, but I did have to I wanted to pursue my education when I finally surrendered to go into the full time preaching ministry. Yeah, against my will. Initially. Yeah, for sure. But, I, came to move my family out here, worked full time, went to grad school full time.
00:06:57:03 - 00:07:14:01
Michael Sharp
I got a great education there. And again, my professors were, godly men and women who knew their subject. They were formed well, spiritually. They were educated well, formally. And, they prepared me.
00:07:14:03 - 00:07:30:01
Bob Eby
You know, let me ask you this. Who, in your time here and I'm sure you could name a bunch, but who was maybe one professor that that left a really lasting mark. And what about that professor? Made that so impactful?
00:07:30:03 - 00:08:00:17
Michael Sharp
It would be hard to name one. Yeah. The, I had great prophets, New Testament, West Smith, Old Testament, Stan Horton, Ray living and all of blessed memory, and historical theologians, the golden era here. I believed, with, Doctor William Menzies, Edith Bloom Hoffer and Gary McGee. And I think that, the historical theologians made a profound impact on me.
00:08:00:17 - 00:08:34:09
Michael Sharp
All three of them, they, were faithful to our tradition, but they emphasized that we we constantly needed to be learning. We needed to be submitted to, the word of God, to each other and to the broader body of Christ. You know, we were constantly, regularly, warned, do not and do not become immune to correction by the larger body of Christ or by your brothers and sisters.
00:08:34:09 - 00:08:57:22
Michael Sharp
They used, Jesus words to his disciples, in the Gospels, when the Holy Spirit is come, he will lead you into all truth. Well, all those pronouns in that whole section are plural. Yeah. Jesus never promised to lead Peter alone into all truth. So who will I ever think I am to think that I'm going to learn all truth by revelation, or even learn new truth by revelation?
00:08:57:22 - 00:09:23:23
Michael Sharp
So, they, really conditioned us to be deeply formed spiritually by the word of God, by the spirit, and by, wise people of God. I went on to, and to they, you know, they were very honest about the, the, never ending innovations in the Pentecostal charismatic movement.
00:09:23:29 - 00:09:27:26
Bob Eby
We're open. Right? We're open. And we sometimes turned into that openness.
00:09:27:26 - 00:10:00:16
Michael Sharp
Yeah. And, having had been personally exposed and my family exposed to certain aberrations. Sure. Within the Pentecostal movement, in my younger years, I saw clearly the need for careful education, careful formation and accountability, and then went on to basin a school, you know, denominational at a great Baptist school, Sanford University. But the beast and Divinity interdenominational, very open to Pentecostals and but multi, disciplinary ecumenical.
00:10:00:18 - 00:10:32:03
Michael Sharp
And so that was a wonderful environment. But again, you know, we were drilled on, orthodoxy, within the broad definition of it, with several faith traditions, including Pentecostals there. But to search the scriptures carefully and constantly to be always open to correction, because the New Testament warns, continually. Yeah. Regarding false teachers, winds of doctrine, and so forth.
00:10:32:05 - 00:11:01:21
Michael Sharp
And so, the and the person on the front line of all of this shepherding the congregation is the pastor. Yeah, it's the pastor. And when we looked at the New Testament and the earliest church we saw, you know, the the formation and the, maturing and the discipling of the pastors and their elders and their deacons and building out from there, you know, and, and with the church as a discipleship movement.
00:11:01:23 - 00:11:31:09
Michael Sharp
And so, I was always formed in that direction. And as a Pentecostal, you know, lifelong, you do see a lot of damage that's done. Yeah. With, bad teaching, poor teaching, bad application and acculturation, which I think is one of the greatest dangers and, compromises that I see. You know, in America as well, a lot of acculturation and syncretism going on.
00:11:31:12 - 00:11:49:16
Michael Sharp
And if you're not deeply immersed in the word and in the history of the church, yeah, you won't see it. You'll be blinded by the lens of your culture. Yeah. And, and so it's just it's just very important all that work together for me, it's a lifelong process. I know it's not easy, but I think God expects us of it.
00:11:49:17 - 00:11:53:04
Michael Sharp
We're going to stand before Christ to give an account for what we teach the people of God.
00:11:53:06 - 00:12:22:23
Bob Eby
What? Where would you evaluate where we're at? So you've given us two big things, right? Deeply immersed in the word, shaped, informed by the truth of Scripture, continually open to its, correction and guidance. But also the other pieces that you've mentioned is that we are part of the broad stream of the church that that goes back and and we have a tendency we, we are bloom off for for one, she talked about us being a restoration movement.
00:12:22:23 - 00:12:41:24
Bob Eby
The problem with and we are the problem with restoration movements is they see the church began great. And then it disappeared for 2000 years. And it finally got right when we showed back up again. But we're not that right. We're deeply tied into the history of the church right now. So let's when were you hear it at Eagles?
00:12:41:25 - 00:12:42:07
Bob Eby
What year?
00:12:42:13 - 00:12:53:12
Michael Sharp
I was here from, 83 through 85. Okay. I think I matriculated in the fall of 82, I think. Okay. But, you know, 82, 83, 83, 84, 84, 85. Okay.
00:12:53:14 - 00:13:24:07
Bob Eby
MDiv, where are we at today? And this is good, bad or otherwise? It's not a set up to it. We have recency bias, right? It's either easy to see today as a golden age or today as a, backslidden age. But let's be balanced. Where are we today compared to where we were in the 80s? In understanding, keeping deeply, biblically informed, but also under our understanding, our place within the broader stream as ministers within the Assemblies of God.
00:13:24:07 - 00:13:25:01
Bob Eby
Where are we?
00:13:25:03 - 00:13:59:12
Michael Sharp
Well, you know, like a, Dickens wrote, I think it's sometimes it's it's the best of times and the worst of times. And so you know, there are think things that are better now in Pentecostal formation, in education than they were in the 80s. Some things I think, there is, you know, more openness among some among the rank and file, I think, more openness to a broader range of, theology izing theologians scholarship.
00:13:59:14 - 00:14:41:29
Michael Sharp
At the same time, there is a, I think a greater pressure than ever before to produce, numbers, frankly. And the old phrase nickels and noses. Yeah. Right. And, you know, many times we're not really questioned about how we do it as long as we do it. But the good point, the only way to build a biblical congregation, and to pastor biblically, is, to follow the Scripture closely, which involves all the things I said and to constantly be growing, be challenged by the word washed and changed by the Word of God.
00:14:42:01 - 00:15:26:19
Michael Sharp
And, never be satisfied. And that takes work. It's not, an easy or a simple matter. And, I think many times today there are so many options presented to younger ministers who, for, role models and styles and content and preaching that's more designed to market. Yeah. Brand or market, the gospel so-called. Yeah. And to make it easier, for, you know, people to come and be attracted, then, there is a, a willingness to submit to the long and difficult journey of constant education, formation and learning.
00:15:26:19 - 00:15:51:27
Michael Sharp
I, I encourage people, as our School of Ministry director and in credential interviews, you know, constantly be reading and growing us read things that challenge you read things written by, excellent scholars from other faith traditions in the, in the, Orthodox and Evangelical Christian churches. And don't get caught in a vicious reading cycle of reading. Pastor.
00:15:51:27 - 00:16:10:17
Michael Sharp
Wonderful book does. You're telling you how to be as wonderful as he is, right? Yeah. And how to build your church quickly and easily. Because, you know, ten years from now, you'll look at all of those titles, on your shelf and you'll wonder, you know, what's that? And why in the world did I spend money on that?
00:16:10:19 - 00:16:11:14
Jason Sprinkel
They don't age well.
00:16:11:14 - 00:16:34:00
Michael Sharp
They do not age well, you know, read, read, scholars and scholarship. That's been around a while. Yeah. And that really, hews closely to the word of God. You know, it's like, you know, even William Seymour said once a vision, if we have if we have stuck too closely, to the Bible, you know, we will take that up with the Lord when we meet him.
00:16:34:03 - 00:16:39:00
Michael Sharp
I'm paraphrasing him. I'm paraphrasing him. But, and so,
00:16:39:02 - 00:16:53:16
Jason Sprinkel
Will you embody that? Very well. One of, you know, we're friends on Facebook, and so all summer long, I you had, I think, a month's worth of reading material that you were, you were going through and there were several books that you were reading, and I was reading a couple of them at the same time. I thought, all right, I'm in good company.
00:16:53:16 - 00:17:03:25
Jason Sprinkel
If if Michael Sharp is recommending this book, I'm doing okay. But you do you recommend to the Alabama ministry network, you recommend in your in your is it a monthly newsletter that the it's.
00:17:03:25 - 00:17:04:24
Michael Sharp
Bi monthly bi.
00:17:04:24 - 00:17:12:26
Jason Sprinkel
Monthly. So I know you have a recommended book or a book review. So how how do you evaluate a book.
00:17:12:29 - 00:17:13:15
Michael Sharp
Well that.
00:17:13:15 - 00:17:15:24
Jason Sprinkel
You recommend that you're going to recommend. Yeah.
00:17:15:26 - 00:17:48:17
Michael Sharp
I, I try to look for something, if I can find something by a scholar or writer that I already know is solid, insightful, honest. And, I, I look for that number one. Number two. Oh, are they dealing with a subject that's important in the life of the church today? Oh, good. And, or something that, leads to a better understanding of the word of God, you know, certain passage, certain books, certain topic or issue.
00:17:48:20 - 00:18:14:13
Michael Sharp
So I evaluate it that way. And, you know, frankly, for a quick, for quick evaluations, you know, you can, hop on, to Amazon, for instance. Yeah. And, you know, you can, read samples, you can read the content to read the endorsements. Yeah. And to make sure that, you know, those who are recommending the book are, of similar caliber people and writers.
00:18:14:16 - 00:18:35:21
Michael Sharp
And, you know, there are various ways to do that and, read, read the reviews and the reviewers, online. And so, and of course, you know, I don't, I don't review publicly all of the books that I read. So I told people for 20 years, I, they ask you, what are you reading right now?
00:18:35:21 - 00:18:49:00
Michael Sharp
I say, well, I usually don't tell folks what I'm reading right now. It's safer to tell them what I was reading 15 years ago. Yeah, yeah, that's what I was reading 15 years ago is now more acceptable and, widespread. Are you telling.
00:18:49:00 - 00:18:51:18
Bob Eby
Me you push the boundaries a little bit on what you're reading?
00:18:51:20 - 00:18:54:10
Jason Sprinkel
No, no,
00:18:54:13 - 00:19:04:06
Michael Sharp
I only read books that were written by people like me. In my my faith tradition. So, you know what?
00:19:04:08 - 00:19:22:27
Jason Sprinkel
In all of our conversations, is, one of the things that I've really appreciated about you is that you're not afraid of hard questions. You're you always have a thoughtful response. You know, you're you don't shut down, an argument. You're you're thoughtful in in the way you approach these things. You we need we need more leaders like that.
00:19:22:29 - 00:19:24:17
Jason Sprinkel
And we need more pastors like that.
00:19:24:18 - 00:19:47:29
Michael Sharp
Yeah. And, you know, sometimes, in our circles in our faith tradition, in our particular fellowship, we've always had, extraordinarily bright. Yes. And some, well, a few well-educated leaders or scholars, but, you know, I, you know, you don't like other people talking about your family. Yeah, yeah. But yes.
00:19:48:02 - 00:19:48:21
Bob Eby
We can talk about our.
00:19:48:21 - 00:19:50:04
Michael Sharp
Family and talk about your family or you want.
00:19:50:05 - 00:19:51:20
Bob Eby
We can. We got lots of things.
00:19:51:20 - 00:20:02:26
Michael Sharp
About our fans. So, I, we have not always been exactly the best home for our friends. Two scholarship or scholars.
00:20:02:29 - 00:20:03:06
Jason Sprinkel
For.
00:20:03:06 - 00:20:28:19
Michael Sharp
Education. No matter what anybody wants to say or try to defend us. We have a very strong intellect, anti-intellectual bent, and a very strong anti educational bent, in the Pentecostal tradition and in our fellowship as well. And I say that from a generational family. Yeah. You know, my wife had a great grandfather at, Hot Springs.
00:20:28:19 - 00:20:46:07
Michael Sharp
Wow. 1914. We have, one of his Bibles that, he took there with him and, you know, kind of a Pentecostal relic, tell people when it's in the service, the, you know, the level of anointing, and, oh, it goes away. So, it's a little, you know, we have to be honest about ourselves that we're going to grow.
00:20:46:09 - 00:21:04:07
Michael Sharp
Yeah. And so, you know, we have to, I'm an encourager. I know this is my alma mater here, I guess, but I encourage people to not get siloed in their education as well, to get at least one, degree from a nun, Assemblies of God or Pentecostal school.
00:21:04:09 - 00:21:05:09
Bob Eby
We affirm that here this.
00:21:05:13 - 00:21:32:22
Michael Sharp
And, it enriches our tradition. And I have studied broadly enough and widely enough, both formally and informally. I can assure you that, you know, education and learning and the broader family of God is no threat. Yes. To, our Pentecostal spirituality and life. Absolutely. Not at all. Yes. But it better informs us. And it builds better banks, you know, and better insights.
00:21:32:24 - 00:21:49:14
Michael Sharp
You know, we we like to say, speak about the Holy Spirit. And, you know, we talk about how, you know, nobody knows, as Jesus said, you know, where the spirit comes from, you know, and, he, he moves us a wind and we don't know where he's going. But many times we have not really believed that.
00:21:49:15 - 00:22:16:00
Michael Sharp
Yeah, we have not believed that the Holy Spirit could speak to and through, the Wesleyan or the, reformed brothers or other faith traditions, and, that's that's arrogant. Yeah. We should not be like that. We should be humble, receptive to any and all insights that are accurate and true. And that help us because it will help us better understand the Lord and his word and his work, his mission.
00:22:16:02 - 00:22:25:08
Michael Sharp
And I understand ourselves where we came from. And, and it will only add insight. It will never hurt us. It will only help us.
00:22:25:08 - 00:22:34:24
Jason Sprinkel
Those are those are fruit of the spirit type type things. So are you saying that Pentecostal people filled with the Holy Spirit can also display the fruit of the spirit? Is it? Oh man, I, I don't know about you.
00:22:34:24 - 00:22:37:27
Bob Eby
Much better with the games. We're much better with the gifts.
00:22:37:27 - 00:22:56:24
Michael Sharp
I'm, you know, I have taught through the years that, the Spirit's primary function is to sanctify us and cleanse us and form us to be more like Jesus, and then to empower us to serve and be more like Jesus. But yeah, the character transformation comes first.
00:22:56:26 - 00:23:29:03
Bob Eby
I love what you brought out, and I think, I think it deserves just one more emphasis. There is not a, a struggle between thoughtful, deep, formative education and exploration of the deep tradition of theology and biblical study that everybody's always been afraid that that will rob us of the spirit, that will rob us of the dynamic of the spirit.
00:23:29:08 - 00:24:02:22
Bob Eby
You know, the joke that we hear. And let me just tell you, we at the seminary, the professors at the seminary really are tired of the joke. You know, while you're going off to cemetery, right, that it's going to it's going to kill you spiritually. And I have found, you know, you know, where my Pentecostal theology and depth became even more solidified was when my I studied in my master's degree at a non Pentecostal in a historically secessionist seminary, and I took a class on new metallurgy.
00:24:02:24 - 00:24:25:00
Bob Eby
And the professor was very open to Pentecostalism. But many of the students work and we read books that weren't. And you know what I found that that what I had had is the primary critiques of Pentecostalism in my younger years that were presented to me were straw men. They weren't the best. They weren't the best attacks on our doctrine in seminary.
00:24:25:00 - 00:24:46:01
Bob Eby
I read the best attacks. And you know what I found out? We hold up jobs. Absolutely. We hold up. Just. And I came out of that experience having read the best of secessionist theology and what. Nope, I am I am fully Pentecostal and more deeply and more securely Pentecostal.
00:24:46:07 - 00:25:21:11
Michael Sharp
Right. And I think I am too, I, you know, I never faced any direct attacks on, my Pentecostal, faith life and spirituality, at recent events, Divinity school at all. That's not the way they operate at all. I, I, faced some opposition at State University. But, and again, I know where I'm sitting, but my sympathies are more with, our, college ministry.
00:25:21:13 - 00:25:57:12
Michael Sharp
Yeah. And college missionaries who have to sit and endure us and hear us decry all secular education. Right. And, that is not necessary. Yeah. And so, I'm with you. You know, I my faith has only been strengthened. I've changed. I've grown through the years. Sure. If you've never changed or grown, there's a lot of arrogance and resistance and a lack of humility and teachable is there that, you know, you may recognize in others or think you do, but you're blind to the, log in your own eye.
00:25:57:14 - 00:26:33:29
Michael Sharp
We have to be, open to growth. And that means change education. It's not mere indoctrination. Yeah, there's a difference. In many times in our circles, all we want is indoctrination. Yeah. But, you know, fundamentalism has always been inimical to Pentecostal life and spirituality. It really is, I agree. So, we have nothing to fear. And that's why I ask people many times, I ask that open ended question on my, Facebook page recently of what are you afraid and why am.
00:26:34:02 - 00:26:49:09
Michael Sharp
And, boy, did I get some different responses. But I mean that for me, that is, and they were humorous and one was very, very serious. And shared privately. But, we don't have to be afraid.
00:26:49:09 - 00:26:49:21
Bob Eby
Yeah.
00:26:49:21 - 00:27:13:28
Michael Sharp
That's good. The command of the Lord Jesus is. Fear not. Yeah. Do not be afraid. And, I am not afraid of the attacks of this world. Amen. Or the attacks of, situation ism. Any brothers or sisters who believe that, I am not afraid. And I'm not afraid to explore. Yeah. I'm not afraid to grow. Because my faith in the Lord Jesus has never been.
00:27:13:28 - 00:27:14:25
Bob Eby
Secure.
00:27:14:27 - 00:27:42:16
Michael Sharp
In my Pentecostal life. And spirituality has never been threatened. Yeah, it is secure, and I'm only more free and more joyous and more thankful today than ever before as a theologian, as a pastor. And, I'm so excited about to being retired. I would love to be able to continue to answer questions. Yeah, from younger ministers and, to provide resources.
00:27:42:16 - 00:28:05:06
Michael Sharp
But, we'll see. My family wants me to be fully retired for a season. So, but, you know, and I appreciate you guys very much. I want to say that this is unsolicited. And, yeah, I didn't know I was going to be here, but, Bob and Jason are just phenomenal, people for, viewing and listening audience.
00:28:05:09 - 00:28:10:02
Michael Sharp
So keep those cards and letters coming in. And, is this on that station down in Del Rio? Yeah.
00:28:10:05 - 00:28:11:25
Bob Eby
That thing.
00:28:11:27 - 00:28:40:27
Michael Sharp
You know, 10,000,000,000W reaches the dark side of the moon, I think. And, and so, and I do love and appreciate agents. Yeah. As, as well as all my other, educators and, you know, and guys like Gordon Fee, it's so profound. And, you know, that those voices, elite scholarship, and there are many out there today, such as, you know, Craig Keener.
00:28:40:28 - 00:28:59:23
Michael Sharp
Yeah, yeah. And, numerous other ones. I can name some right here, you know, Ward home and and so forth. And so, and, you know, Pentecostal scholarship, is, is, flourishing around the world. It is a majority world especially. They are taking the lead now. And we need to be humble and respect that.
00:28:59:23 - 00:29:00:08
Bob Eby
Yeah.
00:29:00:10 - 00:29:25:02
Michael Sharp
And let them hear what they have to say, hear their insights and, learn from them and change and grow. And so I, encourage, you know, any, any who are listening, especially pastors. What are you afraid of? You have no need to fear education, right? We are commanded to learn, to grow, to work correctly, handle the Word of God.
00:29:25:04 - 00:29:36:25
Michael Sharp
Be diligent in applying ourselves to the Scripture, to prayer, to receiving, correction and instruction. We will answer to God.
00:29:36:27 - 00:29:37:15
Bob Eby
Yeah.
00:29:37:17 - 00:30:19:08
Michael Sharp
Bob, you know, we're going to give an answer for everything we teach the flock of God, and they're holy. The people of God are holy. There are holy charge, and the word is a holy charge. So, you know, and be careful who you who you model yourself after young pastors and ministers, you know, be careful of the models you follow, because, a lot of the models that were proposed to us, to build, bigger barns and expand our fences, have not fared well lately.
00:30:19:10 - 00:30:37:06
Jason Sprinkel
So before we left it, I was going to ask for one piece of advice before you retire. But that was it. I think you already gave it. That was excellent advice. Yeah, well, Doctor Sharp, we like to ask our guests to just pray for those listening for the church, for these animals of God. Whatever Lord lays on your heart, I suppose, is most Pentecostal way for me to frame that.
00:30:37:10 - 00:30:40:03
Jason Sprinkel
Sure. Would you would you would you pray for us?
00:30:40:03 - 00:30:44:17
Michael Sharp
Absolutely. Let's pray.
00:30:44:19 - 00:31:09:10
Michael Sharp
Father, we do thank you for another day in which to bear the name of Jesus Christ for a lost and a dying world. We remember and thank you for the day, the hour, the night that you touched our hearts and called us to Christ. When you fill us with your spirit when you called us into ministry, we thank you for the people who have poured into our lives, and we thank you for all of the gifts and graces you give us.
00:31:09:13 - 00:31:34:23
Michael Sharp
We ask, father, that you would touch all who hear, and that you would touch the church in in the world and in this nation today, that you would lead us to a pure devotion to Jesus, lead us to our passion, a hunger for the Word of God, a humility before the word remind us of the gravity of the task and the immensity of the task that you've entrusted to us.
00:31:34:25 - 00:31:47:09
Michael Sharp
Remind us that the people of God are holy. Help us to be bold, to be brave, to fear not to speak the truth when we see it in the Scripture.
00:31:47:12 - 00:32:14:14
Michael Sharp
We thank you that you enable us, to climb up out of our valleys, onto the mountain, and to see what's beyond, and to see further than those we lead, and to have the courage to speak the truth to those we lead. We thank you, father, for the privilege. Bless my brothers here today. We pray and have mercy on our fellowship and our nation and the church.
00:32:14:16 - 00:32:17:21
Michael Sharp
In Christ's name we pray. Amen. Amen.
00:32:17:24 - 00:32:19:06
Bob Eby
Thank you so much for your time.
00:32:19:07 - 00:32:24:06
Michael Sharp
Thank you for inviting me. It was a surprise. Yeah. So, what a joy. But I appreciate it.
00:32:24:08 - 00:32:58:05
Bob Eby
God bless you. I don't want to be Rear Admiral George W Melville. His list of accomplishments as a Civil War sailor, polar explorer and engineer and chief of the Navy are extraordinary. So why exactly is he an unworthy exemplar for all of his genius in steel and steam? He may be best remembered for his hot take two years before Orville and Wilbur made history at Kitty Hawk.
00:32:58:07 - 00:33:29:05
Bob Eby
He pontificated from his spectacularly bearded face. There is no basis for the ardent hopes and positive statements made as to the safe and successful use of the dirigible balloon or flying machine, or both, for commercial transportation or as weapons of war, and that therefore it would be a wrong, whether willful or unknowing, to lead the people and perhaps governments at this time to believe the contrary.
00:33:29:07 - 00:34:00:29
Bob Eby
He also used words like impossible and absurd. In his article, there is always a danger of making a fool out of oneself with knee jerk reactions against the new. The emerging in the latest technological advancements of the day, especially when they're in their infancy, fully aware of the risk of becoming the Admiral Melville of humble ethics. Allow me to wade into the topic of the preacher and the use of AI.
00:34:01:02 - 00:34:24:17
Bob Eby
This morning I tested grok to give me the top three commentaries on the pastoral epistles written within the last 30 years. This is a topic that I'm familiar with because I'm teaching a seminary class on that very subject right now. The three recommendations that it offered were certainly on my short list of the best commentaries available. I for the win.
00:34:24:19 - 00:35:00:17
Bob Eby
Does this test demonstrate that I should be a primary tool in sermon prep? I would say an emphatic no. Why not? I could make all of the arguments that I is known to make things up. Misunderstand. Nuance. Strip the beating affective heart out of communication. Maybe even be forms of plagiarism or mislead people who sacrificially give to support the work of ministry in your assembly by passing off as your work product a sermon that you did not write.
00:35:00:19 - 00:35:29:24
Bob Eby
I could question whether the Holy Spirit can even indwell or anoint a digital electronic device. I could keep going with a myriad of other potential ethical concerns that I have, but that is not for today. The reality is that many of the issues could be resolved with continued evolution of the technology, or increased transparency from the preachers. This is what Melville didn't account for unforeseen and rapid advancement in the technology.
00:35:29:26 - 00:35:58:01
Bob Eby
My primary concern does not pivot on the quality, capacity or improvement to the technology. I question the wholesale wholesale adoption of AI for the writing of sermons. For the same reason, I would have scolded preachers for pilfering the sermons of noteworthy proclaimers from the internet, CDs, tapes or books from the past. Sure, I can be a great tool to point you to resources.
00:35:58:04 - 00:36:29:14
Bob Eby
Maybe create an organizational structure for the sermon, just like the aforementioned resources could have. But there is something else that is missing. Those who labor. Yes, I said labor at the task of sermon preparation are, according to acts six four, called to be devoted to be busily engaged in, or maybe more casually stated, spend a lot of time in prayer and ministry or serving of the word.
00:36:29:16 - 00:36:57:03
Bob Eby
We are not called to simply speak sermons, but are called to serve the Word of God. There is an irrevocable mandate on the preacher to be formed by the word, not just parrot the words of the text, or worse, the words of someone or something else. Be it commentary, sermon, book, grok, Gemini, ChatGPT, or any other AI tool.
00:36:57:05 - 00:37:40:11
Bob Eby
Are there good ways to use AI? Yep. Are there things that can be appropriately streamlined in the process of serving the Word of God by using AI? Yep. But if you're looking for AI to write your sermons, or you're indulging it too far just so you can have time for other things, you're missing the main thing, preacher. If you are focused on how to spend less time in the study of God's Word, to be fully prepared to communicate and contextualize it to the people you have been called to serve, you picked the wrong job, and you've assigned the wrong priorities in your ministry.
00:37:40:13 - 00:37:50:21
Bob Eby
If this makes me the humble article, Rear Admiral Melville, I'll wear that title with pride.
00:37:50:23 - 00:37:58:26
Jason Sprinkel
All right. Of all of the things we may talk about, this one probably has some personal attachment and and could create some angst, I suppose.
00:37:58:28 - 00:38:03:16
Bob Eby
Are we going to. Are we going to address a problem you have with your preaching? Because I've got a list.
00:38:03:18 - 00:38:16:05
Jason Sprinkel
I will tell you, it is a problem I have had with with my preaching in the past, though I probably don't think of it as a problem as often as I do. What about the length in time of sermons?
00:38:16:08 - 00:38:33:17
Bob Eby
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a real issue. It is. And I think it probably is a real issue for a great number of preachers, myself included. And I think the problem, the difficulty is I genuinely don't believe there is a right answer.
00:38:33:19 - 00:38:42:13
Jason Sprinkel
I think that is the problem. And it would be nice if we could give a hard and fast rule to this, and that would only get us into problems of trouble with with people who have different opinions.
00:38:42:13 - 00:39:01:11
Bob Eby
And, and I don't mind having a problem with people who have a difference of opinion. If I'm convinced that I'm right, but I'm not convinced them right on this. Because. Because there are vastly different settings, right? Yeah. If you're preaching a General Council keynote sermon.
00:39:01:11 - 00:39:03:09
Jason Sprinkel
I think that's unlikely for me.
00:39:03:11 - 00:39:27:05
Bob Eby
Don't sell yourself short, buddy. I mean, you're a man of God, good communicator of God. I don't think it has anything. The superintendent may just be calling you for two years from now. Yeah. That's true. But if you're doing that, there is an expectation of an hour in many things for sure. Many, at least historically. But if you're if you're preaching a youth service, a junior high youth service.
00:39:27:11 - 00:39:29:28
Jason Sprinkel
You get 12 minutes. Maybe, maybe.
00:39:30:00 - 00:39:43:22
Bob Eby
Yeah. You know, and so context does matter. It does matter. And again I gave extremes on the ends of there. But there's a lot of there's a lot of space on that continuum. And so we cannot say.
00:39:43:24 - 00:39:44:27
Jason Sprinkel
25 minutes is all you've.
00:39:44:27 - 00:39:45:02
Bob Eby
Got.
00:39:45:03 - 00:39:46:08
Jason Sprinkel
No you can't say that.
00:39:46:10 - 00:39:49:17
Bob Eby
No. Now, now here's the bigger underlying problem, I think.
00:39:49:18 - 00:40:01:00
Jason Sprinkel
And part of that too, is I have heard, I have said in sermons that I was on the edge of my seat for over an hour. Yeah. And other sermons. After 20 minutes, I was like, wrap it up, buddy. I am checked out.
00:40:01:01 - 00:40:09:14
Bob Eby
Which is also partly your settings, your expectations and the quality of the preacher. I think one of the big issues.
00:40:09:16 - 00:40:10:21
Jason Sprinkel
I'm already tired of hearing. You're right.
00:40:10:21 - 00:40:11:06
Bob Eby
I am.
00:40:11:06 - 00:40:13:09
Jason Sprinkel
Right now. Okay, this is all right.
00:40:13:10 - 00:40:14:09
Bob Eby
We're going to pull this back.
00:40:14:10 - 00:40:20:22
Jason Sprinkel
We're two minutes and 30s in, and I'm just like, wrap it up. What? Just say something. Sorry. Oh.
00:40:20:24 - 00:40:24:15
Bob Eby
And and I'm gonna say something here in about a second.
00:40:24:21 - 00:40:37:25
Jason Sprinkel
And all of us, all of us, even those watching, listening, have had people in our conversation in our congregations who who are like, pastor, I wish you could go another. You know, don't wrap it up quick, don't cut it short. And other people are like, oh my gosh.
00:40:37:25 - 00:40:53:13
Bob Eby
Well, I had a family leave the church because services were going too long. And by too long we're talking at the time, an hour and a half, and that included everything in the service. And they're like, this is going too long because the spirit of the Lord was moving in the church, and we went a little over that and went a little past noon.
00:40:53:16 - 00:41:19:11
Bob Eby
And they said, we don't want to come here anymore. And then I've had other people that that, I have been very critical pastor. You're too. You're too attuned to the clock, you know, but here's the problem that I would want to say is our tradition has a tendency to equate at times length of the sermon or the service with the anointing are nebulous.
00:41:19:11 - 00:41:20:13
Jason Sprinkel
Term spiritual.
00:41:20:13 - 00:41:48:07
Bob Eby
Or spirituality. That if it's longer, equates with more dynamic, more spiritually attuned, more spiritually, led. And, and I think first and foremost, before we talk about any metrics to evaluate the length of a sermon, the first thing we have to throw out is you cannot equate length of the service with the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
00:41:48:10 - 00:41:55:24
Bob Eby
It can't long services can be anointed. Short moments can be powerfully anointed.
00:41:55:25 - 00:41:59:24
Jason Sprinkel
The Holy Spirit by nature, God is beyond time. So you're saying you can't be.
00:41:59:27 - 00:42:01:02
Bob Eby
Bound by time?
00:42:01:05 - 00:42:01:25
Jason Sprinkel
Bound by. Yeah.
00:42:02:00 - 00:42:18:00
Bob Eby
Now, now let's bring it back. Yeah. I just want to be practical. Number one, I never want to preach in a way that the vast majority of my congregation is, is actively and eagerly awaiting it to end because they are weary of it.
00:42:18:02 - 00:42:35:12
Jason Sprinkel
Yeah. And that is something I think we have to we have to tune ourselves to, because it's easy for us as preachers to almost tune out some of that, what's happening in the audience. And we have to have is it humility? I'm not sure you're the virtue expert, but we have to be.
00:42:35:16 - 00:42:37:21
Bob Eby
Only in theory, not in practice.
00:42:37:23 - 00:42:41:08
Jason Sprinkel
We have to be attuned to what's happening.
00:42:41:08 - 00:43:01:19
Bob Eby
What's happening. Yeah, yeah. Because here's the other thing that as much as we've talked about congregation expectations, our congregational expectations are preachers can also be guilty. They're unspiritual because we are not paying attention that they're checking out on me or they're they're more concerned about getting out. Okay. Well, you got to be sensitive to what's happening in the setting.
00:43:01:24 - 00:43:11:27
Bob Eby
Number two, you have to be aware of what's happening with attention spans and you can fight it. You can argue against it, you can condemn it.
00:43:12:00 - 00:43:12:23
Jason Sprinkel
You can reality.
00:43:12:23 - 00:43:26:09
Bob Eby
But it is reality. We see this in our social media. Absolutely. You have like 10s people will watch a video and it doesn't matter how much great content is put into it by who puts it in there.
00:43:26:09 - 00:43:27:00
Jason Sprinkel
They're already moved.
00:43:27:00 - 00:43:29:29
Bob Eby
On 10s and they're done. And so.
00:43:29:29 - 00:43:31:05
Jason Sprinkel
And our congregants are used to.
00:43:31:07 - 00:43:50:00
Bob Eby
Viewing that's how they live their life that way. And, and 25 years ago, nobody would have had the gall to walk into my service bringing a novel or a book. Nobody would have walked in with a portable television under their arm and thought, well, if the pastor's boring, I'm going to read my book or I'm going to watch TV.
00:43:50:05 - 00:44:00:02
Bob Eby
But today, both of those things are available on cell phones that are in the pockets. And they will. And they do check out and actually.
00:44:00:05 - 00:44:08:09
Jason Sprinkel
It's right there in their hands. Right? A lot of our congregations are already engaging with the Bible. So when we ask them to turn to a passage of Scripture, they pull out their phone.
00:44:08:12 - 00:44:09:28
Bob Eby
And then that's not a condemnation of that.
00:44:09:29 - 00:44:18:18
Jason Sprinkel
No, no, no, absolutely not. But my point is that they're already on their phone. And if they get a little bit bored or distracted, they're going to what do they do? They just open a different app.
00:44:18:18 - 00:44:30:22
Bob Eby
So rather than talk about the exact amount of time, I know if you want me to give you a general, I'll give you a general. I think anything can be a 25 to 30. I agree at the the extremities for the modern American culture.
00:44:30:23 - 00:44:31:24
Jason Sprinkel
I think that's the case.
00:44:31:24 - 00:45:02:08
Bob Eby
But but beyond specific time, I would say this. Why don't we work on being compelling? Yes. Vivid preachers that create powerful word pictures with our word. Absolutely. Because that will compel let us learn to become better storytellers of the gospel. That's great. This is how Jesus, instead of spending all of our time worrying about an exact moment on the clock, which let's pay attention to the clock reasonably, but let's be better communicators of the gospel.
00:45:02:09 - 00:45:24:18
Bob Eby
Sure. But then also let us be aware of our setting. We will. We will invest thousands of dollars in missionaries going into foreign countries with the expectation that they will learn to contextualize the gospel. They will learn to communicate in the language they will understand now how to not offend in the culture. They will understand the mores they'll adopt, dress that will not hinder gospel proclamation.
00:45:24:24 - 00:45:38:16
Bob Eby
Well, friends, we are embedded in a culture true, and we need to understand who we're communicating with. And if they're turning you off because you're preaching too long, stop condemning them for that. And learned in culture or ministry.
00:45:38:16 - 00:45:56:06
Jason Sprinkel
And some of that culture is age, some of it is region, right? You can't even guarantee that that in the same district lines, at the same state lines, that that one congregation is going to be used to the same or able to put up with the same time frame that another congregation is. You have to learn the culture of where you're situated.
00:45:56:13 - 00:46:13:13
Bob Eby
So let's spend our time instead of obsessing about the exact amount of minutes. Sure, let's become more vivid, effective preachers. Let's in culture, eat the gospel in the setting in which we serve so that our people leave hearing God's Word and encountering the Spirit of God.
00:46:13:15 - 00:46:13:29
Jason Sprinkel
Excellent.
