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00:00:06.588To anyone thinking about Nest Timber, no matter the size of your company is at least given a chance.
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00:00:18.585We've kind of come up with a top ten list, if you will, of things that you share with anybody and everybody who asks us how do you make it pencil, especially at smaller scales, especially for affordable housing?
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00:00:22.050There's some really easy, low-hanging fruit ones.
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00:00:32.289It's helping us get into more of that design to really get a honed concept that can transition from one affordable housing project to the next and help us unlock affordable Mast Timber housing.
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00:00:47.646This is the Mast Timber Group Show.
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00:00:50.649Today I caught up with Molly and Scott Cutler of Cutler Development.
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00:00:53.966They're developers in the Des Moines area working with Mast Timber affordable housing.
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00:01:01.289We unpack their top lessons learned and how they're able to get Mast Timber to pencil for residents earning between 30% and 80% of area median income.
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00:01:06.668Scott and Molly shared a lot of their lessons learned and the best practices they're taking into future projects.
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00:01:16.810But before we jump in, if you want to learn more about building multifamily Mast Timber buildings and meet other teams doing the same thing, we're hosting the second annual Mast Timber Group Summit this August in Denver.
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00:01:22.808We've got 30-plus sessions, three amazing networking parties and building tours of the coolest projects in Denver.
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00:01:27.025Check out the link in the show notes below for more info and if you like these podcasts.
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00:01:29.668Subscribing to the channel is the biggest compliment you can give us.
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00:01:34.828It helps us book incredible guests like Scott and Molly and it brings more Mast Timber awareness to the rest of the world.
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00:01:36.665So with that, let's get into it.
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00:01:39.085Yeah, thanks for having us today.
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00:01:41.268My name is Scott and this is Molly.
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00:01:43.206We're both with Cutler Development.
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00:01:54.027Cutler Development is Molly and myself and we joke our dog Arthur, who's literally on the screen here, and we work out of our house.
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00:01:58.748We're a small-scale urban infill developer.
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00:02:01.084I started the business.
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00:02:06.650It's been eight years ago now and Molly's been part-time.
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00:02:12.568She started part-time like four years ago and has been full-time now for over two years.
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00:02:20.028Yeah, our mission at Cutler Development is to develop projects that better neighborhoods, society and the environment.
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00:02:32.944So our focus on the neighborhood piece of that is we really focus on urban infill and we tend to build in cities that have walkable kind of neighborhood pockets.
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00:02:39.623Our goal is to enable residents to live, work and play in the same area.
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00:02:49.368On the piece of our mission statement that talks about bettering society, we focus a lot on affordable and workforce housing.
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00:03:05.948About 95% of the units we've done to date have tenants living in them who are making between 30% and 80% of the area median income, and so that's something that's really important to us.
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00:03:35.443And going back to that neighborhood piece, locating those types of units in livable, walkable cities we love sharing stories about tenants who are living in one building of ours and then working just two blocks down in a retail shop that we may have done a historic conversion on and so they're able to kind of we joke a lot of our tenants instead of having cars they have e-bikes because the radius that they're trying to travel is very accessible by that mode of transportation.
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00:03:56.467And then the third and final piece of our mission statement is to build projects that better the environment and that's really where our mass timber journey has come into play, and Scott can tell you we have a great story of how we sort of unknowingly backed into mass timber on a project a couple of years ago and we really haven't turned back.
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00:03:58.927We believe in it absolutely.
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00:04:17.709We actually exclusively now do historic renovations or new construction in mass timber, only Again, that idea of trying to protect the environment and do our part in development to reduce kind of the carbon emissions that come from real estate and construction.
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00:04:36.790Yeah, that's a great origin story and I love how you guys have those three different pillars in your mission statement and I can definitely see how locating your buildings inside a walkable area as well as folding in that income targeted resident base, they all kind of come together right.
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00:04:41.408And that environmental factor some people think it's just the materials that go into a building.
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00:04:43.726It's mass timber, so it's environmentally friendly.
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00:04:53.209But actually if you put residences in that livable, workable area, like you said, it reduces the need for transportation, it reduces the load on the infrastructure.
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00:05:05.024You're not sprawling out, You're building where services are already located and so there's much less effort and maintenance and ongoing operational carbon, if you will, but outside of the building.
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00:05:13.826But also, if you're in a tight neighborhood with services all around you, you don't have to drive three miles down the road to your grocery store and then come back.
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00:05:15.482You can use those e-bikes, you can walk.
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00:05:21.880I would be super interested to hear how you guys quote unquote backed into mass timber, Sir.
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00:05:24.350Yeah, you got it.
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00:05:36.805Like you mentioned, there's so many benefits to in-built projects and Molly and I have been really involved in one neighborhood actually pretty close to our house, the Valley Junction neighborhood.
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00:05:42.867It's located in the city of West Des Moines, so it's actually just outside of Des Moines proper.
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00:05:51.752We've done seven or eight projects there now and we completed construction on our first mass timber project.
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00:05:58.749It would have been this past well now, like a year and a month ago, december.
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00:06:00.329So December of 2022.
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00:06:20.649And the project concept is a mixed use building with about 4,000 square feet of commercial on the first floor, 11 apartments ranging from 30% to 80% AMI on floors 2 and 3, and then two small offices.
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00:06:23.543We had the project.
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00:06:28.125Really the capital stack was compiled, the building was designed.
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00:06:48.646We were really close to being ready to break ground and move forward when our architect went to an AIA conference and heard a speaker from Woodworks which has actually been really kind of a fun full circle thing because Woodworks has been a huge help to us on our projects in so many ways.
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00:07:02.550So our architect heard this presentation, came back and design meetings off the cuff, mentioned that he'd heard this presentation and how cool this mass timber concept seemed to be.
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00:07:15.466And then it had an environmental benefit and also a really unique kind of warm aesthetic, and so we looked into it and we agreed that it was really cool.
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00:07:26.579And so I think much to our and I'd say this jokingly they're a fantastic group and they're very happy to do so, but we didn't have actually been going back and retroactive.
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00:07:41.170We redesigning the building to be a mass timber building, which was a fantastic experience, but also came with, you know, a set of challenges as well.
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00:07:53.576Yeah, that's one of the things that everybody in the, the AEC space that's working with mass timber harps on is like, if you want to work with mass timber, you've got to design it from the beginning to be for mass timber Right.
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00:08:03.194Like if you're especially if you're if cost is the determining factor, like you get to the end of the of the design bid build phase, like and you just try to throw a mass timber there.
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00:08:13.319It's not gonna work, it's not optimized to take advantage of those efficiencies Outside of, like the, the warm aesthetic and the and the cool factor Were any of the.
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00:08:17.576The aspects of mass timber was like install speed, anything like that was.
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00:08:19.822Were those factors in your decision to move forward?
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00:08:23.879Hey, we're gonna get back to the podcast in just a second, but first I have a question for you.
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00:08:26.326Are you somebody looking to build a mass timber project?
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00:08:29.415If the answer is yes, then you need to put together an experienced team.
00:08:29.634 -->
00:08:38.534Our partners at cornerstone timber frames are leaders in heavy timber construction and have 30 plus years of experience, which means you can trust them to get the job done right.
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00:08:44.143They collaborate with Nordic structures to bring you the highest quality FSC certified mass timber available.
00:08:44.143 -->
00:08:52.414They also have some of the most advanced fabrication technology in the industry, so your project goes up smoothly without costly on-site modification or delays.
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00:08:58.554That means they have the experience, network and technology to make your next mass timber project a success.
00:08:58.554 -->
00:09:02.534Learn more about cornerstone timber frames by clicking the link in the show notes below.
00:09:03.837 -->
00:09:04.438Definitely.
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00:09:06.864Yeah, I think you're right.
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00:09:11.741I mean, it certainly is easier to know you're doing mass timber Before you start to design a building.
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00:09:16.855It's also one thing we've learned on the second project and we'll get into this later.
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00:09:27.061But what we learned on our second mass timber project is it's easier to know Exactly who your mass timber supplier will be Before you get too far into design.
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00:09:29.027But we could talk about those details.
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00:09:47.024But, um, yeah, I think you know we that first project, having designed it in More traditional method and then going back and redesigned for For mass timber, it did afford us a lot of Intersection and figuring out you know how do we make this.
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00:10:10.349The cost but first cost in mass timber invariably came up higher, came back higher, and so we went through several value engineering exercises but ended up, while they maybe slowed down the design phase on that first project, it uncovered a lot of things that we could then take to the second project and we're still taking the third and beyond in a pipeline.
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00:10:31.139We we've kind of come up with a like a top 10 list, if you will, of things that we share with anybody and everybody who asks us how do you make it pencil, especially at smaller scales, especially for affordable housing, and we've tried to share that list with anybody who ever asks, and that's God.
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00:10:33.708You want to talk about some of the ones on the list, or?
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00:10:34.611yeah, definitely.
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00:10:35.375Yeah, some of the highlights.
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00:10:39.839Actually, we have it pulled up here Trying to remember from.
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00:10:46.283So this is these are slides from a Presentation, actually multiple presentations we've given.
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00:10:48.360So, yeah, some of the highlights.
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00:10:58.738I think one of the big ones that I mentioned previously is I'm utilizing different, just resources and and leveraging relationships.
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00:11:12.580Basically, we found that that there really is a community that that believes in mass timber and that we found to be and and this may sound a little bit naive, but I think we really believe it there's.
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00:11:24.126It's just a lot of people, the people that are involved, at least especially this stage, are very open to sharing information and and and and just want to do whatever they can to help.
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00:11:30.006You know, like raise the tide to lift all boats, I suppose, using that.
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00:11:33.042Saying so, I think that would be one of our.
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00:11:39.864One of our top 10 is Utilizing mass timber resources and for us, a really big one was woodworks.
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00:11:42.168They were a fantastic resource trust.
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00:11:44.163They helped us anywhere from.
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00:12:24.129You know, on the first mass timber building we had no connections to any suppliers, so getting us kind of connected to a couple to bid things out all the way to we bumped into a couple of issues, our concerns from our insurance provider around building in mass timber and so getting them on phone calls and emails To help provide the information, since we hadn't done one before, we couldn't, we couldn't provide that information ourselves, but but they were able to step in and help get that insurance agent to kind of understand that okay, this is not just building a giant matchbox and that there are precautions and oversizing beams and that sort of thing for fire.
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00:12:27.553Yeah, yeah.
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00:12:30.494So Go ahead, if, brady, if you want to jump in.
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00:12:35.553So I was going to ask you some of those value engineering things that you guys did for the building.
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00:12:40.054Were there any lessons learned from that experience that ended up on your top 10?
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00:12:43.706Absolutely very much.
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00:12:46.455So yeah, there's some really easy like low hanging fruit ones.
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00:12:49.381One for us was the decking.
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00:12:59.809It can be a different size thickness between floors versus on the roof, and so you know, we had about four inch decking.
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00:13:05.172On our first project, the junction lofts, we had four inch decking between each of the floors, and we had originally had four inch decking for the roof.
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00:13:11.254But after another round of value engineering we found we could reduce the roof decking to three inches.
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00:13:16.100So taking out, you know, 25 volume wise meant.
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00:13:27.322In our experience, the pricing for mass timber directly correlates to volume pretty much, and so we were able to take 25 out of at least that level's cost for the decking.
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00:13:29.159So quick things like that.
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00:13:37.508All the way to more detailed, scott, you figured out the Kind of how to use demising walls if you wanted to.
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00:13:37.950That's the very here.
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00:13:39.135Nice, yeah, yeah.
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00:13:54.174So I think one of the big learnings from our first project that we took to our second project and is really integral to our concept and making it financially feasible is Utilizing a hybrid mass timber and dimension lumber design.
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00:14:03.024With our projects, our buildings so far have been mixed use with commercial on the first floor, so we have mass timber columns, beams and decking as the structure for the the first floor.
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00:14:21.553Then, as we go up into the apartment levels, we essentially value, engineer out the columns, leaving the beams, and then we we do utilize mass timber decking as well.
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00:14:27.647We used MPD from Freire's on the first project and CLT from Sterling on the second project.
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00:14:54.774But in that design we we eliminated the columns on the second and third floors and located partition walls such that we took advantage of optimized spans of the decking material so that we we essentially have those walls providing the bearing capacity that the columns would have provided, and and so we can eliminate the the columns.
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00:15:03.183Yeah, I think that's one thing that I hear a lot is is when people say I'm going to build a mass timber building, they think, oh, my decking systems, my walls, everything is mass timber.
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00:15:22.375When sometimes, especially on Quote-unquote, smaller scale projects, that gets really cost prohibitive because there's just so much fiber, when in reality, like it's, you don't need that for structural purposes, like you can use light frame hybrid systems to get the most out of out of both right.
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00:15:31.054When you guys were doing the Junction lofts Previously and then you started with the star lofts, did you guys use the same principles between the two?
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00:15:31.917We did.
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00:15:33.326It's been great We've been able to.
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00:15:39.173Take some of these learnings from project to project.
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00:15:43.876So we took the In junction lofts we designed so that we could use the same In junction lofts.
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00:15:55.628We designed studio and one bedrooms using kind of the hybrid method that scott had described and we were able to pretty much keep the same square footage, same layout, everything for the studios and one bedrooms in star.
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00:16:06.118And then we went ahead and added a two bedroom unit type and so now we've got designs for studio one and ones and twos that we can take to to any project moving forward.
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00:16:11.192And you, you mentioned that these are affordable housing builds.
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00:16:14.466Are they Build for rent or are they build to sell?
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00:16:24.750They're all for rent, and so that's another thing that we love about Mass Timber is the durability of Mass Timber.
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00:16:51.576When you're in the rental market, in particular in the affordable and the workforce rental market, these rental units based on the funding stack and some of the subsidy that you have to have on affordable housing projects to make them pencil a lot of those restrictions on rental incomes, those last for 15 to 20 years.
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00:16:57.101You're committing out front that you will rent at those levels for 15 to 20 years, depending on the source.
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00:17:10.473So it's really important to us that the unit looks just as nice and has just as nice an aesthetic quality for the first tenant who moves in year one as for the tenant who moves in year 19.
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00:17:28.942And so that was something that really has brought us back time and time again to Mass Timber is that durable finish, the beauty that it brings to a space without additional drywall or carpeting or paints and lacquers.
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00:17:40.200So it keeps maintenance really pretty low for us for those decades, but it also keeps the quality of the materials of the unit high for the tenants.
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00:17:46.781Did you, when you guys were going through your pro forma, how much of the spread?
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00:17:48.154And you're not to give exact numbers.
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00:18:05.535But if you're using Mass Timber and you have more exposed surfaces, which means less drywall, less paint, things like that would you say that the absence of those materials helped influence the balancing of costs for the premium and fiber that Mass Timber usually brings?
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00:18:07.494Yeah, I think so.
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00:18:08.218I think so.
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00:18:15.217We, unfortunately we're a small enough outfit and part of the way that we make our projects works by staying extremely low overhead.
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00:18:36.297We don't have like extremely detailed or quantified sort of analysis of sort of those savings from the reduction and finishes and then sort of how that skews the balance, I suppose, of the structural design and those costs.
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00:18:38.935But that's definitely the concept.
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00:18:40.516There's savings.
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00:18:47.933So, as Molly mentioned, there's no drywall and the ceilings so we can leave the Mass Timber exposed.
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00:18:52.298That also just creates in addition to the Mass Timber exposed.
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00:18:58.913We have sprinkler lines that are exposed, we have all of our electrical running through conduits, so it's easy to access and easy to maintain.
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00:19:06.898We also expose concrete on our projects and so that's another benefit.
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00:19:29.880As you know I'm sure most people listening to this podcast know Mass Timber has the structural rigidity to allow for elevated, true concrete, elevated decks, and so we like to leave that exposed and we just put a simple sealer over the top and that's also a very durable and low-cost finish.
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00:19:38.221Yeah, it's kind of like the combination of all those factors that make it feasible.
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00:19:47.498There's people listening that work for $100 million development companies and then there's people that might do a couple projects a year with a small team.
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00:19:52.058You guys have done it right so you don't have to be in this camp to work with Mass Timber.
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00:20:00.942You can absolutely build three-story, 15, 20-unit affordable housing type projects with Mass Timber.
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00:20:01.624It's doable.
00:20:01.624 -->
00:20:10.255Would you guys say that it was exponentially more challenging than building with what you guys have already done, or would you say it was like a?
00:20:10.255 -->
00:20:11.673How would you stack that up?
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00:20:36.661It's a great question and I think the first thing we would say to anyone thinking about Mass Timber, no matter the size of your company, is at least give it a chance if the two of us working on a warehouse like you said, the two of us working on a warehouse can figure out a way to make it pencil.
00:20:36.661 -->
00:20:37.142There are ways.
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00:20:52.973I think the biggest thing for us was working with our general contractor and all of his subs and getting our hands on materials On the Junction Lofts project.
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00:20:53.915We always told the story.
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00:21:09.323Everybody was recommending that we bring in a specialized framing company specialized in Mass Timber, specifically from out of town, and that just wasn't going to work on the financial side of it for the project.
00:21:09.430 -->
00:21:24.276And so Scott we had already decided on Freire's Mass Client Panel at that time and so Scott called I think he called Tyler or Austin out there in Oregon said hey, can you send me a sample of this stuff?
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00:21:26.518I want to show it to the local framing crews.
00:21:26.518 -->
00:21:28.414And actually that's the sample on our desk back there.
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00:21:35.241We have Freire's and also a sterling sample from the two projects we've done.
00:21:35.241 -->
00:21:43.715And Scott took it around to the different framing crews and they said oh, we got this, no problem, we'll be able to figure this out, and so that saved a ton of money.
00:21:43.715 -->
00:21:46.736It also helped to grow the ecosystem.
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00:21:57.000Here in Des Moines we were able to use that same framing company on our second Mass Timber building and then they're going out and getting other jobs and we hope that they get more Mass Timber jobs because they've had experience in it.
00:21:57.000 -->
00:22:01.319It just grows the number of people that can work with this material in an area.
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00:22:04.151Yeah, absolutely so.
00:22:04.151 -->
00:22:07.180I want to drill down on that topic a little bit more.
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00:22:26.939So a lot of times when people are, when they're new to the Mass Timber space and they're working on their first project, the things that often come up a lot in the cost realm are my subs, or my GC is unfamiliar with the project, and so they build in like an uncertain risk factor into that bid right, which then makes the project not financially feasible.
00:22:26.939 -->
00:22:31.682How did you guys work with the GC and the sub to kind of mitigate those concerns?
00:22:31.682 -->
00:22:35.441Was it as simple as like here's the sample, but they're just going to be this big?
00:22:35.441 -->
00:22:37.678Or did you do any sort of like extra training?
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00:22:41.880Did you connect them with the resources, those conversations, that community that you talked about?
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00:23:08.460Yeah, I think it definitely requires a construction team, or really an entire project team, not just construction, not the design team and even some of the financing team, to be willing to try something that's a and now I wouldn't even say new, but at least something that is new to some markets maybe or less common.
00:23:08.460 -->
00:23:13.181And we have a great contractor that we work with.
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00:23:18.436It actually is my brother's company and he's done a large number of projects with us.
00:23:18.436 -->
00:23:41.279But I think you know sort of and this Molly mentioned something similar but to build upon that concept, the projects that we've done the first project that we did, no one on our project team had any experience with the Mast Timber and on the second project, only some of the project team had experienced.
00:23:42.470 -->
00:23:48.260I think some of our learnings and maybe recommendations would be with the structural engineering firm.
00:23:48.260 -->
00:23:57.817They're really, I would say, most structural engineers have the capacity to design in Mast Timber, whether they have experience or not.
00:23:57.817 -->
00:24:00.997We had great experience with the firm.
00:24:00.997 -->
00:24:14.031I think it's okay if we give a shout out to a firm who did a great job KPFF and while the local group may or may not action it and don't quote me on this, well, I guess by nature.
00:24:14.031 -->
00:24:15.837You can quote me on this because we're recording.
00:24:15.837 -->
00:24:22.096But I know locally they don't have a lot of Mast Timber experience just because there isn't a big Mast Timber market locally.
00:24:22.096 -->
00:24:32.219But I think they were able to draw from the firm's Mast Timber experiences largely in the Pacific Northwest and some of their other locations.
00:24:32.219 -->
00:24:34.303I'm trying to think.
00:24:34.650 -->
00:24:36.296Great connection back to that community.
00:24:36.477 -->
00:24:36.917Yeah.
00:24:37.269 -->
00:24:45.416And those offices were able to exchange information from Portland to Des Moines and say, okay, yeah, your design looks good, or here's what we've experienced.
00:24:45.416 -->
00:25:10.491And so that ended up leading to a structural design where, to your point, brady, a lot of times these subs or sub-designers will introduce a big conservative factor into their bids and some of the trades that may look like just a higher cost for labor or something along those lines In the structural world.
00:25:10.491 -->
00:25:17.778That may look like extremely oversized columns and beams that then make it infeasible to work.
00:25:17.778 -->
00:25:28.401And so I think and without speaking for them, but I think KPFF was able to leverage across teams that had done it on the West Coast to help here in Des Moines.
00:25:28.401 -->
00:25:35.396We ended up with columns that were appropriately sized and didn't run into needing to value engineer the mass timber.
00:25:35.396 -->
00:25:37.978We could focus on other areas in the project.
00:25:39.053 -->
00:25:39.596Yeah for sure.
00:25:39.596 -->
00:25:44.222How did that work with your insurance firm?
00:25:44.222 -->
00:25:48.856Was it as simple as a couple of communications back and forth with Woodworks?
00:25:48.856 -->
00:25:56.020Did the premium come down to a level that was more in line with traditional stick frame or concrete and steel?
00:25:56.020 -->
00:25:57.523How did that insurance aspect play out?
00:25:57.523 -->
00:26:00.811That's a big, scary, unknown topic in this world.
00:26:01.400 -->
00:26:02.342Yeah, great question.
00:26:02.342 -->
00:26:06.811The billers risk policy on both projects came out just fine.
00:26:06.811 -->
00:26:09.663It was consistent with other construction types.
00:26:09.663 -->
00:26:31.627The ongoing liability policy we did have some challenges with the junction loss project but ultimately we were able to get the policy price back down to a very reasonable level With that and you mentioned this at your spot on Woodworks was a huge help.
00:26:31.627 -->
00:26:49.616We reached out to Woodworks and we actually brought them into a call and some email exchanges and they were able to provide the data needed to prove to the insurance underwriter that mass timber isn't any more risk.
00:26:49.616 -->
00:26:55.700Well, I'm trying to think how to word that correctly, but basically that mass timber is insurable, got it?
00:26:55.960 -->
00:27:12.316We'll get into our conversations with the city and the planning and design departments when there were questions about, especially on that first project, when there were questions about fire safety and ratings and that sort of thing, woodworks.
00:27:12.316 -->
00:27:21.325That's another example of kind of them hopping on a call and with our team and the city west of Des Moines I think we even had them we pulled them in.
00:27:21.325 -->
00:27:33.782The second project we did was in Des Moines, even though they're about a mile, two miles apart, we were in two different jurisdictions and so similarly, they were very willing to jump on a call and kind of get through those conversations.
00:27:35.259 -->
00:27:35.641Was that the?
00:27:35.641 -->
00:27:41.523Was your guys' first project, the first time that West Des Moines had seen mass timber come through their building apartment?
00:27:42.989 -->
00:27:44.560It was, it was.
00:27:44.560 -->
00:27:56.034Yeah that building the junction lofts is the first in West Des Moines, the second in the greater Des Moines area and the first in the state feature residential units.
00:27:56.034 -->
00:27:56.896Got it?
00:27:56.896 -->
00:28:09.910So it was a lot of new for, like Scott mentioned earlier, a lot of new for our team, for the city, for funders of the affordable housing components.
00:28:09.910 -->
00:28:14.125But in terms of these a lot of first, which was fun.
00:28:14.125 -->
00:28:16.549We learned a lot that we were able to take to the next projects.
00:28:18.180 -->
00:28:19.964Those things that you're taking to the next project?
00:28:19.964 -->
00:28:28.286Is there anything in that top 10 list or lessons learned in the code in the building department space that you preemptively will take to the city next time?
00:28:29.342 -->
00:28:31.027Anything in the code specifically.
00:28:31.980 -->
00:28:54.454You know, I think one of the things that we've found that hopefully should be encouragement for others looking to do mass timber projects is that we've been able to work within the code, not ask for any variances, and find a code path forward on both projects in two different cities.
00:28:56.023 -->
00:28:56.304Great.
00:28:56.304 -->
00:29:00.304So yeah, you don't have to take an alternative means and methods approach to this.
00:29:00.304 -->
00:29:01.448It's baked right in already.
00:29:02.160 -->
00:29:06.368I'd say on both projects and go for it, jump in.
00:29:06.368 -->
00:29:18.675There was maybe a couple friction points or it was a little bit more challenging than a non-mass timber project, but typically, as Molly mentioned, we were able to bring in woodworks or bring.
00:29:18.675 -->
00:29:30.055It was just really an education piece that it was able to kind of resolve any potential code challenges.
00:29:32.067 -->
00:29:33.272I'm going to change topics a little bit.
00:29:33.272 -->
00:29:43.249I can't remember if you said this before we started courting or right after, but you talked about the importance of going and finding the manufacturer that you're going to be working with and then working from them from the start.
00:29:43.249 -->
00:29:45.267What were the lessons learned?
00:29:45.267 -->
00:29:48.505That kind of led you to that, and then how are you guys going to take that philosophy moving forward?
00:29:49.749 -->
00:29:57.095Sure, yeah, it's always a tricky thing.
00:29:57.095 -->
00:29:58.617It's kind of a chicken and the egg.
00:29:58.617 -->
00:30:03.727You want to have enough design that you can go out to mass timber suppliers to get pricing.
00:30:03.727 -->
00:30:26.297But when you have that much design, you have to have chosen in your head at least a supplier, because every supplier's dimensions of their paneling, for instance, is different, and so you may find that one of the suppliers comes back too high and you need to switch.
00:30:26.458 -->
00:31:08.431Well, now you have to go back and switch your design because your spans are suddenly changing, and so it's a really neat time to be a part of the industry, because it's so new and at least in the US it's so new and there's so many companies starting up, but they all have their own kind of proprietary in some cases, or patented in some cases, kind of dimensions, and so it's a delicate balance of getting someone in early enough that you think their pricing will kind of line out, and so you go down the path of designing your building to match their specs, and having it requires kind of a large level of trust with that manufacturer or supplier.
00:31:10.299 -->
00:31:37.038So that was just we didn't realize that, I guess in between the two projects, between junction loss and between star loss, and so that was a really big learning for us and something that we ended up having to go through some redesign efforts on the star loss project, and so that's sort of a learning that we're definitely taking into future projects Got it, and we talked to Michaela Harms with Sterling Gosh a couple of weeks ago.
00:31:37.058 -->
00:31:45.627Actually, her podcast episode comes out tomorrow, which means, yeah, january or February 1st I'm trying to do math when we're recording this a day early.
00:31:46.299 -->
00:31:52.515Sterling has just been fantastic to work with Michaela and Archie and Candace.
00:31:52.515 -->
00:31:56.061Yeah, they just have a great team.
00:31:56.061 -->
00:32:09.273But we do have subsidy on that project to help the project both offer a really high level design and also affordable housing.
00:32:10.422 -->
00:32:10.701Got it.
00:32:10.701 -->
00:32:14.872And when you say subsidy, can you define that for people not inside the development world?
00:32:16.020 -->
00:32:38.148Yeah sure, just various grants or tax credits or just any sort of typically public, sometimes private, funding that often we have to apply for as part of some competitive and scored process but then is granted to the project.
00:32:38.148 -->
00:32:47.890Because without that subsidy affordable housing projects often just are, they don't pencil.
00:32:48.440 -->
00:32:55.003And those grants and forgivable loans, or, in some cases, zero interest loans, that get paid back or whatever the form it takes.
00:32:55.003 -->
00:33:04.009In exchange, the project offers a certain number of units that are at certain income designations for a certain amount of time.
00:33:04.779 -->
00:33:05.301Got it Were.
00:33:05.301 -->
00:33:09.942Any of those grants or subsidies did you receive, specifically because you use Mast Humber?
00:33:11.660 -->
00:33:17.278The only one was the one the United States Forest Service Wood Innovations grant.
00:33:17.278 -->
00:33:22.336So both the junction lofts and the star lofts were recipients of that grant funding.
00:33:22.336 -->
00:33:25.046That's been a great program for us.
00:33:25.046 -->
00:33:28.195It's helped on the first project.
00:33:28.195 -->
00:33:38.066That was really what we used to help offset some of the costs as we were just figuring all of this out the cost of Mast Humber On this current project.
00:33:38.066 -->
00:33:44.007It's helping us to kind of iterate and get more technical on the Mast Humber.
00:33:44.007 -->
00:33:49.085Technical on the sound assembly which we changed from one project to the next.
00:33:49.085 -->
00:33:50.993Technical on the beam sizing.
00:33:50.993 -->
00:34:00.243It's helping us get into more of that design to really get a honed concept that can be transitioned from one affordable housing project to the next.
00:34:00.243 -->
00:34:05.723So we're extremely thankful to the US Forest Service for that grant funding on both of those projects.
00:34:05.723 -->
00:34:11.867It's really helped us unlock affordable Mast Humber housing here in Des Moines at least.
00:34:12.983 -->
00:34:14.230Yeah, it's a great program.
00:34:14.230 -->
00:34:20.369We'll link it down in the show notes below so that if any other aspiring Mast Humber developers want to look into that, it'll be there for them.
00:34:20.369 -->
00:34:23.927Where in the build process is star loss right now?
00:34:24.981 -->
00:34:26.905Yeah, we're about 50% of the way through.
00:34:26.905 -->
00:34:52.177They put the roof on actually this week, so we're all dried in now and we've had quite a bit of snow and cold temperatures here in Des Moines so we will actually need some time to dry out the building from some of the snow melt before we start on the sound kind of the flooring of each level.
00:34:52.177 -->
00:34:57.690But after that we've got MEP kind of trades coming in for rough ends and we should be.
00:34:57.952 -->
00:35:07.565We're aiming for certificate of occupancy around Thanksgiving or so with the first tenants coming in the end of the year, and then how many units and what was the size of that one.
00:35:09.579 -->
00:35:17.846The building's approximately 22,000, I think, square feet and there's 20 units ranging from 30% to 80% AMI.
00:35:19.340 -->
00:35:19.519Got it.
00:35:19.519 -->
00:35:25.454Got it, so people will be able to move in close to December.
00:35:25.454 -->
00:35:26.838We'll call it.
00:35:26.838 -->
00:35:29.726Do you guys have any plans after star loss?
00:35:29.726 -->
00:35:31.009Do you guys have anything in the pipeline?
00:35:32.099 -->
00:35:34.574We do, yeah, one of those things.
00:35:34.574 -->
00:35:54.300So we've learned through these two projects that mass timber we absolutely love and for all the sustainability reasons, for the aesthetic reasons, for the mental, physical and emotional benefits that studies have shown, being surrounded in natural materials like wood, frame to residential tenants.
00:35:54.300 -->
00:36:01.320So we know that we want to continue in our pipeline or future projects are already all we've got the vision for mass timber.
00:36:01.320 -->
00:36:19.300The second thing that we've introduced on the store lofts that we didn't have on the junction loss but was spurred because of the junction lofts use of mass timber is we're going on the store lofts project, we're going after the International Living Feature Institutes zero carbon certification.
00:36:19.300 -->
00:36:28.673So that's a net zero embodied carbon and operational carbon emissions for the building.
00:36:30.001 -->
00:37:02.318In each category embodied and operational there's a required reduction versus a comparable building and then a requirement to kind of offset the rest and so we can go into more detail of kind of what we've done on the store loss, which has been really really neat and intense exercise actually to achieve the embodied carbon reduction, operational carbon reduction, and then to install on and off site solar to reduce the remainder of the of the operational carbon.
00:37:02.318 -->
00:37:04.461But that's something that we want to take.
00:37:04.461 -->
00:37:06.103We've been able.
00:37:06.103 -->
00:37:19.300It took a lot of work and we're very thankful to the team or architect, our general contractor and other resources who got us there on the store lofts building and it's something we want to take to future projects.
00:37:19.300 -->
00:37:23.023So those are kind of the two big things and they're intertwining.
00:37:23.023 -->
00:37:30.733Mass timber was the way that we got to net zero on the one of the big contributing factors to net zero on the embodied carbon side.
00:37:31.800 -->
00:37:40.954Yeah, when people are distinguishing between embodied and operational carbon, for those that aren't familiar with the difference between those two, can you impact that real quick?
00:37:41.958 -->
00:37:44.222Yeah, definitely so, I guess.
00:37:44.222 -->
00:37:56.675But simply, the embodied carbon footprint of a building is the carbon footprint of the construction process, and the operational carbon footprint would then be once the building is occupied.
00:37:56.675 -->
00:38:02.672It's the ongoing carbon footprint to to run the building.
00:38:02.672 -->
00:38:03.172So to speak.
00:38:04.342 -->
00:38:04.621So it's.
00:38:04.621 -->
00:38:08.889It's more efficient, takes less, you know, energy to heat and all that kind of stuff.
00:38:08.889 -->
00:38:12.835Does that translate to reduced utility bills for tenants to?
00:38:14.240 -->
00:38:16.902Absolutely does.
00:38:16.902 -->
00:38:28.652We've done a lot and high efficiency and we P systems kind of love flow water fixture, plumbing fixtures, that sort of thing that that we've seen on the junction lofts.
00:38:28.652 -->
00:38:50.436While we didn't measure those things in pursuit of the certification, we still did a lot of them and since that one's already occupied, we're starting to get data and those water and utility bills are are much lower than than some of the buildings in the surrounding area, kind of similar size footprint than those units are.
00:38:51.900 -->
00:38:52.481Yeah, I think that's.
00:38:52.481 -->
00:39:04.721That's another critical piece that I think a lot of people overlook when we're talking about affordable or attainable housing, like it might be cheap on the rent or the purchase price, but what does it cost to actually live there for 20 years, right.
00:39:04.721 -->
00:39:14.614So if you know if you can have your heating bill like that adds up a lot over 20 years, right, and that those are things that people have to pay for, right?
00:39:14.614 -->
00:39:17.442I think that that's a really key thing.
00:39:17.442 -->
00:39:28.414That a lot of people have looked at operational carbon from the carbon standpoint, but I think it very much so translates like this is how it impacts the tenants.
00:39:28.414 -->
00:39:30.635You know pocketbooks every single one.
00:39:31.639 -->
00:39:36.706That's a great point, absolutely, when you're, you know, working in the 30 to 80% AMI.
00:39:36.706 -->
00:39:46.135That's something that you want that to be a good experience for tenants, and and and not be a hindrance to their own personal financial growth.
00:39:47.181 -->
00:39:47.922Yeah, absolutely.
00:39:47.922 -->
00:39:51.851Well, it sounds like you guys have big plans moving into the future.
00:39:51.851 -->
00:39:54.722You've already got one project done, one's underway.
00:39:54.722 -->
00:39:57.405I'm excited to see what you guys are after next.
00:39:57.405 -->
00:40:01.271I'm excited to see how Starloft top or, excuse me, it's already topped out.
00:40:01.271 -->
00:40:03.094Excited to see how it gets finished.
00:40:03.094 -->
00:40:10.938We'll share some of the pictures that you guys have from both projects inside the episode and then on the thumbnails and stuff like that.
00:40:10.938 -->
00:40:14.713Moving forward, I've got a couple questions that we ask every guest.
00:40:14.713 -->
00:40:16.320Would you mind if I dove into those?
00:40:17.362 -->
00:40:18.364Sure, of course.
00:40:19.105 -->
00:40:19.385All right.
00:40:19.385 -->
00:40:27.320So you guys went through a big learning journey in mass timber outside of Woodworks, because we know that they're like the go to resource for information.
00:40:27.320 -->
00:40:40.106Was there a book, a podcast, a show conference, a seminar, anything like that that you, that you think other aspiring mass timber developers absolutely need to connect with, got an idea.
00:40:41.481 -->
00:40:45.344Yeah, so you're right, we have talked about Woodworks.
00:40:45.344 -->
00:40:49.108I would say go to their Woodworks Innovation Network.
00:40:49.108 -->
00:40:59.702It's a map of all of the mass timber buildings that have been are either under construction or completed, itself reported, so there may be some that are missed and find one that's close by.
00:40:59.702 -->
00:41:07.373We've taken trips to several mass timber buildings and we've cold emailed well called the developers.
00:41:07.373 -->
00:41:10.297A great example Jeff Spiritos.
00:41:10.297 -->
00:41:12.320Spiritos properties out in New Haven, connecticut.
00:41:12.400 -->
00:41:16.724I don't know if you had a chance to interview him on the podcast, he would be a great I'm a great add.
00:41:16.724 -->
00:41:21.449His daughter, erica, is also in the mass timber space out on the West Coast.
00:41:21.449 -->
00:41:23.871We were able to go to New Haven.
00:41:23.871 -->
00:41:28.996We were in town for other business and we called him up and we said, hi, we're from Iowa.
00:41:28.996 -->
00:41:32.322Yeah, can we wait for my tour?
00:41:32.362 -->
00:41:48.423Both your ACMI building and your 340 plus sticks well Avenue building and they were both under construction and he was incredibly generous with his time and walked us through and their architect join us at one of the buildings they showed us.
00:41:48.423 -->
00:42:05.465That's where we first saw a CLT elevator shaft and we ended up taking that back and putting it into the store loss project, and so it goes back to what Scott was saying earlier in the call or earlier in this podcast of just the community that's out there.
00:42:05.465 -->
00:42:15.333Of course, there are a lot of resources in terms of YouTube and conferences and that sort of thing, but don't be afraid to reach out to someone who's done it in your area.
00:42:15.333 -->
00:42:18.117Would be my suggestion ourselves included.
00:42:18.360 -->
00:42:20.282Yeah, anyone welcome, come to Des Moines.
00:42:20.282 -->
00:42:25.889We'd love to have you and and and tour, and I think that's great.
00:42:25.889 -->
00:42:36.831And I think what I would add would be if you're able to make the Well I think to make, what's the date of your conference, brady?
00:42:38.021 -->
00:42:39.802Our conference is August 1 and 2.
00:42:40.342 -->
00:42:46.530Okay, perfect, yep, that one, or the international mass timber conference, or I know there's.
00:42:46.530 -->
00:42:58.025There's several options, but a conference, I think, would be it just a way to very quickly meet others, kind of plug into the ecosystem, be inspired.
00:42:58.025 -->
00:43:02.733We were so inspired by the last conference we went to, by other people doing other cool projects.
00:43:04.501 -->
00:43:06.222Yeah, those are great answers.
00:43:06.222 -->
00:43:10.206I think that in the end, it's the people that make things happen right.
00:43:10.206 -->
00:43:18.956So whether you get around them by cold calling somebody or getting around in a conference and kind of just shotgun approaching and meeting as many people as you can like, both are fantastic options.
00:43:18.956 -->
00:43:22.248Have you guys met anybody in this journey that really inspired you?
00:43:23.400 -->
00:43:24.661Oh gosh, so many people.
00:43:24.661 -->
00:43:26.905We've kind of been some of them.
00:43:26.905 -->
00:43:33.673Earliest of our journey was was Archie Landerman, when he was working at Woodworks, and he's now with Sterling.
00:43:35.760 -->
00:43:38.822He was a huge help to us and just a really nice person.
00:43:38.822 -->
00:43:41.226He as my invention he was.
00:43:41.226 -->
00:43:47.251He was helping us with the junction last project while he worked at Woodworks and then we ended up using.
00:43:47.251 -->
00:43:53.097So then we worked with him when he was at Sterling on on our second star loss project.
00:43:53.500 -->
00:44:05.512I'm trying to think we mentioned just fear to us a developer on the East Coast who's working in Mastinburg, tyler Freire as it freer as big Taylor harms at Sterling.
00:44:05.512 -->
00:44:10.362There's just a great community.
00:44:10.362 -->
00:44:12.503Those are the kind of initial ones that come to mind.
00:44:15.288 -->
00:44:17.675Yeah, all of those are absolutely wonderful people.
00:44:17.675 -->
00:44:20.273We haven't connected with Jeff yet, but we are interviewing Erica.
00:44:20.273 -->
00:44:21.849Tyler's going to be on the show.
00:44:21.849 -->
00:44:22.813We've interviewed Michaela.
00:44:22.813 -->
00:44:26.547We haven't talked to Archie yet, but we'll make sure that we put them on the list to reach out to.
00:44:26.547 -->
00:44:34.972Before we ask the last question where can people connect with you guys to get some of those resources, to find out more about what you guys do?
00:44:34.972 -->
00:44:36.208Where can people learn about you?
00:44:37.286 -->
00:44:39.914Yeah, we're at CutlerDevelopmentcom.
00:44:39.914 -->
00:44:45.916Our emails are just scott at CutlerDevelopmentcom or molly at CutlerDevelopmentcom.
00:44:45.916 -->
00:44:53.733We have a presence on LinkedIn as well, both individually and on personal pages, as well as our company page, cutlerdevelopment.
00:44:53.733 -->
00:44:54.617There's two out there.
00:44:54.617 -->
00:44:56.161We're the one in Des Moines, all right.
00:44:57.045 -->
00:44:58.710I'll make sure to link the right ones down below.
00:44:58.710 -->
00:45:10.550Then last question it's kind of a fun one, we ask it to everybody If you could change anything about your industry, whether that be development or development in mass timber, what would you change and why?
00:45:13.264 -->
00:45:19.315It would be nice if we could spend monopoly money instead of real money.
00:45:19.315 -->
00:45:24.693There's so many things we want to do.
00:45:24.693 -->
00:45:28.554We've been really fortunate to be able to design a lot of those.
00:45:28.554 -->
00:45:34.784By things I mean environmental concepts and design concepts.
00:45:34.784 -->
00:45:38.775We've been fortunate to be able to design a lot of those into our projects.
00:45:38.775 -->
00:45:42.451But at the end of the day, we're beholden to the performer.
00:45:42.451 -->
00:45:48.389It does limit what we are able to do.
00:45:48.951 -->
00:45:49.572That's a great one.
00:45:50.574 -->
00:45:51.195Yeah, yeah.
00:45:51.235 -->
00:45:51.797Great answers.
00:45:51.797 -->
00:46:07.179I would say, if we could I don't know how to say this I'd say if we could have more mass transit buildings in areas of mass transit.
00:46:07.179 -->
00:46:10.032That's something that Scott and I are big believers in.
00:46:10.032 -->
00:46:19.512We bike to as many meetings as we can when there's not 20 inches of snow outside, Although for Christmas Scott got a fat tire bike.
00:46:20.786 -->
00:46:22.105Maybe he'll be liking to some of our.
00:46:23.333 -->
00:46:46.833This is the most excuse now, yeah, but incorporating that trying to consolidate areas into neighborhoods that are dense, we think, is really We'll go a long way to helping humans offset their carbon footprints Just a lot more focus on that by cities.
00:46:47.385 -->
00:47:03.135One of the things that we try to do with each of our urban infill projects is, if there's a nearby mass transit, like a bus stop for the mass transit system here in Des Moines, we will offer as part of we actually bake it into the performance.
00:47:03.135 -->
00:47:05.213This is where Scott said if we could.
00:47:05.213 -->
00:47:12.949We've got many ideas and we try to put as many as we can into the performance before the model breaks and says you have no more money, you cannot do this anymore.
00:47:12.949 -->
00:47:26.757But on the Starlofts, for instance, we were able to get modeled in all-access annual passes onto the Des Moines area regional transit bus system because there's a bus stop outside the building.
00:47:26.757 -->
00:47:28.467That's something that we're.
00:47:28.467 -->
00:47:35.313It goes back to our mission our development of developing projects that have that focus on neighborhoods.
00:47:35.313 -->
00:47:44.391That's something we would love to see more of as developers focusing in the urban areas versus the suburban stroll.
00:47:45.494 -->
00:47:47.449Yeah, again, fantastic answers.
00:47:47.449 -->
00:47:48.393I couldn't agree more.
00:47:48.393 -->
00:47:57.097There are so many things that we could do that we really wish we could do, but sometimes we've got to pair those down to what makes sense financially and maybe prioritize that list a little bit.
00:47:57.097 -->
00:48:02.465But those are all great things to be considering, especially as a developer and for any developers listening.
00:48:02.465 -->
00:48:04.568This has been really fun guys.
00:48:04.568 -->
00:48:06.170I had a blast talking with you.
00:48:06.170 -->
00:48:09.012Thank you, guys for spending just short of an hour with me.
00:48:09.012 -->
00:48:14.735I hope to see you guys at either our conference or at the next International Mass Timber Conference next year.
00:48:15.547 -->
00:48:16.824Thanks so much for having us, Brady.
00:48:16.824 -->
00:48:17.873We had a great time.
00:48:17.893 -->
00:48:19.465Yeah, thanks so much Brady Brady.
00:48:19.465 -->
00:48:20.206It was a ton of fun.
