#11 - Discovering Workplace, Culture and Mental Health - Petra Velzeboer

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Hi guys, Matt Robinson here from the Facilities Management Exchange.
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We're about to give you a fantastic new episode.
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Episode 11, discovering workplace culture and mental health.
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I run a business that helps people think about high-performing teams but underpinned by mental health and well-being.
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In this episode, we discuss everything around how to revitalize the culture of a business that's perhaps dealing with some toxic traits and things of that nature.
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Sometimes we, without realising it, become part of the toxic culture by spending all of our waking hours complaining about it.
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And we are joined by the fantastic Petra Belzebo.
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People can kind of relate to wearing a mask in order to survive, right?
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Over time the cracks begin to show.
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Like I had this fire in me that really wanted to do good in the world.
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Petra is an author of two books, a keynote speaker globally as well, by the way.
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So often we're turning the volume down on what our body is telling us, and actually, we should turn the volume up.
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Listen to the information that is affecting our lives.
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And she's also created two TED Talks.
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An absolutely fantastic episode.
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I learned so much, and I've known Petra for about two years, but she's always teaching me new things.
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No one said, Who do you want to be when you grow up?
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Yeah.
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What job do you want to do?
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It was like, you're going to be God's end time soldier.
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Yeah.
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Soldier.
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So if you can't learn something from this podcast, you can't learn anything from anywhere.
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But everyone's experiencing a different version of reality because of that.
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Based on what you do for a living and the type of the type of things that you think about, the type of things.
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How do you think that will impact the individual?
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And we've got another episode for you.
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But this one, this one is different.
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For the first time in the history of the Facilities Management Exchange, we don't have a panel.
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We're going to be focusing on one individual, one person.
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And you may ask yourself, well, why are you doing that?
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Well, to be fair, it's all about the individual that we have on this panel.
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And this individual has written written several books.
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So she's an author.
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She's done several TED talks.
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And she's an absolute demon in her chosen field.
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So I'm very, very pleased today to welcome and introduce everybody to Petra Velzabor.
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How are you doing, Petra?
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Very good.
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I feel honoured that you've just got me here.
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I know.
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You're the first, mate.
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I hope I don't let you down.
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Oh no, no, we've known each other a while.
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I wouldn't do this for anybody else, to be fair, Petra.
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How are you doing?
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You well?
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Really good.
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It's good to see you again.
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Yeah, good to see you as well.
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Have you had a nice day?
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Really good day.
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As you know, always something going on, right?
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Yeah, yeah, without a doubt.
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What have you been up to?
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Well, I'll say that I'm starting my mornings off really sharp.
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And I can't always say this, you know what I mean?
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Like, ooh, morning routines.
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But I'm like meditating and hitting the gym and doing a few things first thing.
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It's how do you find meditating?
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I went to this um Buddhist center.
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They were doing a challenge in Brixton, and I went throughout January, and it was like 150 people in a room, like meditating for two hours and chat.
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Well, it would be like a chat and a meditation, a chat and meditation.
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People from like all walks of life, young people, older people, South London, you know.
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Really?
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Um, yeah.
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And it was just a really great way to just practice being present, is really what it is.
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Like I'm not into the spiritual or anything aspects of it, but it's just nervous system regulation allows me to get out of survival mode and into more like, you know, strategic creativity.
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Yeah.
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But that's what people get wrong, is like you're not supposed to quiet your mind, you're supposed to accept that it's loud.
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Oh, really?
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Yeah.
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You don't have to be like quiet, quiet, quiet.
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That's where people get it wrong.
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I really sit there and go, huh, there I am, wandering around again.
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And then you bring yourself back into your body and then you can leave, and then you come back, and then you leave.
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But it's not for everyone.
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Is it like do you do the chanting element as well?
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No, not really.
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I listen to I just have like, you know, blissful, wonderful music on in the background and close my eyes.
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Oh wow.
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That's it.
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Have you seen the film What's Love Got to Do with It?
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Tina Turner.
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Yes.
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You know where she starts um meditating and chanting?
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Yeah.
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Ya Yang Ho Renge King.
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It is.
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I'm not doing that.
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Why not?
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Well, you when I went to the Buddha center, they did do some chanting.
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Yeah.
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And it was like the vibration of it.
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So if you just think that's why they do it, isn't it?
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It's the vibration and the continuous.
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The vibration is amazing.
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Yeah.
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It's just like your body feels it.
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And I think that's what we're missing out on a lot in this world, where it's like, go, go, go, go, go, go.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, we've completely removed ourselves from nature, I think, as a race, haven't we?
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Really?
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To be fair.
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Which kind of takes us into directly why you're here.
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Yeah.
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We've completely segueed right at the beginning, Petra, which I totally expected.
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So tell us a little bit about who you are, um, what you do.
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Obviously, we've mentioned the fact that you've offered several books, that you've been on TED Talks, and that you're, you know, also a worldwide keynote speaker.
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So tell us all about who you are, what you do, and and and how you got to where you are now.
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Well, that's a bigger question.
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I know, but I love this.
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I love it.
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I love this though.
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That's why I'm asking.
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Um Yeah, so I I run a business that um helps people think about high-performing teams, but underpinned by mental health and well-being.
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So so often we have these separate conversations, like the fluffy feeling stuff, yeah, and then the like targets and business objectives.
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Yeah.
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And my job is really bring those together because high performing teams have that within it, right?
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We have we trust each other, we can open up that sort of thing.
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Um I've written, I can't believe I can say I've written a couple of books.
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I've done a couple of tests.
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And then you've you've done the next one, the last one since.
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So congratulations on the on the second book, first thing.
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Thank you.
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So the the first one was about mental health at work and has a bit of my crazy story in it, which I'm sure we'll get into.
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Which I love, by the way.
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And then the second one's about it's called it's about digital well-being and it's about tech addiction, really.
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Oh, now that I'd love to talk about.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, and and it's highlighting how lonely and isolated we all are from each other, even though technically we're busier and more connected than ever, right?
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Yeah.
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And so I get into just real practical tips for how do we think about um our relationship to our devices, but then as a whole, like, is this how we want to live our lives or is there something else we want to be doing?
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Yeah.
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Um so those are the books, and it's pretty cool that that second book has got me all over the world, like at cybersecurity conferences and AI events.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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So it's just gotten me, it's blown up a whole new kind of audience.
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People are worried about this sort of topic.
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So well, I'm not surprised because it is a it's a very new phenomenon, you know.
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Like, I mean, I know that I've got a 15-year-old daughter, Petra.
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Um, and if I had my time over, I wouldn't let her anywhere near social media.
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I would like I genuinely wouldn't.
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But you wouldn't have known, right?
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Like that's the one.
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But this is the thing, this that's why education's important.
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And by having people like yourself actually talking about these issues and and how to counteract them, I think is crucial, you know.
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And also how to take um some responsibility for it, because I think we all know billions of pounds and dollars is being spent competing for our attention, essentially.
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So it's like we like put boundaries in place and then we feel stressed, and then we start scrolling, and you know, and it just like goes round and round, and then we're like, oh, this fucking phone, can I scroll?
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We're all adults in the show, but um, and and then you're back doing the same thing, like buying something you didn't even want, or feeling terrible about yourself because of everything that you're watching, whatever it might be.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And so I kind of we um for many of us that's out of our control.
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We can't change the system, but what are the things that we can do?
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So I kind of get into well, what's possible for us as individuals, as parents, as employees, you know, to to feel better.
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Yeah and and of course do better work, but feel better within ourselves.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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So what how would you how how would you start that approach then now?
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Because because it is very this is new, I think.
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I'd you know, people are talking about social media, and we've now got governments talking about banning it for up to 16-year-olds.
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What does that look like?
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And you know, how do you do that without preventing them from accessing information that they should be able to access, if that makes sense?
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Um how how how do you practically put that into practice, I suppose?
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Well, so there's the thing about parenting, but there's just like with leaders, we think we need to like sort our employees out, but it's really starts with us, right?
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Yes, yeah.
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Which is the title of my first book, Begin with You.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Um and here's a question.
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Go on.
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Um If you asked the like two or three closest people in your life, could be your family, your closest mates, whatever, what they think your relationship is like to your device, your phone, what would they say?
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Oh, well, my wife would say that I'm on it all the time, but I'm not, and I would say to her, You're on it all the time.
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We argue about this on the couch.
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She'll tell me you put the phone down, and I'll gonna say, and you've always got your it's like it's that back and forth.
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You know, it is, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, but everyone thinks that the other person's the one with the problem, which is classic addictive behavior, right?
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Yeah, yeah.
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I've never thought about it like that.
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Yeah, we're like you, and it's defensive.
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And if someone like holds a mirror up to us, we're like, fuck you, it's yeah, it's you, right?
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But that's really interesting, you know, because you know, you know a friend of mine, Patrick O'Sullivan.
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Uh-huh.
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Do you remember him?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So he came on the show several weeks ago and he said that what we'd done is we'd replaced things like coffee and we'd replaced things like I think he said heroin, to be fair.
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Like we'd we'd replaced these things with digital devices.
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So instead of picking up a cigarette or a beer or a this or a that, we're picking up a phone and we're doing it that way.
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Would you agree with that?
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Some people are doing all of the things.
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Well, that's true.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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That's very true.
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But what I will agree with is we're using our device to avoid things difficult conversations, feelings, processing things.
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And so no wonder we're more stressed and burnt out because the stress builds up, that's normal.
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Yeah.
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But it doesn't like we don't shake it out.
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We don't let it out of our system because we just move from one thing to another stressful thing that gives us like a little dopamine hit, but then uh keeps us in this loop where we just keep needing to get more.
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So for some people, sure, it might be I'm still drinking coffee, I don't know about you.
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No, I am I've I've cut down though.
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I have maybe two or three a day now.
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But I but it's really when we're stressed or tired or lonely.
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There's this saying in addiction recovery, because as you know, I'm 16 years sober, and um, it's this acronym called HALT, H A L T, and it's hungry, angry, lonely, tired.
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Right.
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And those are the risk factors for any addict because any trigger can then allow you to drink or do drugs or whatever.
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But it's the same thing for digital addictions.
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So hungry, angry, lonely, tired, you know, um, and we could add some things to that list, and we're like, ooh, I don't want to deal with that.
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Let me just avoid it and watch swipes, you know, whatever it is, shop.
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Um but that feedback loop is usually the starting point to think, do I even have a problem?
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Yeah, because I don't think most people would identify technology in the same way that that you're describing in terms of you know reaching for uh perhaps a drink or a cigarette or a drug or or whatever that or gambling or whatever that addiction may be.
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You'd be surprised.
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We do we but we don't recognise it as a society at the minute, do we?
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Like if you spoke to your average person on the street and you said if you drink a bottle of vodka a day, are you an alcoholic?
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Are you addicted to alcohol?
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They would probably go, well, yeah, of course you are.
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But then if you ask that same person, if you're on your phone for six hours a day, are you addicted to that device?
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They would probably say no.
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Two things.
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Not every person who's addicted to alcohol drinks a bottle of vodka a day.
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Oh, not one.
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Yeah, that was very, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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But but but also I my publishers thought that.
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So my publishers, when I was gonna write the book, they were like, be careful with the addiction thing.
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They're like, not everyone's gonna get it or be whatever.
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And I was like, okay.
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So I started asking people, yeah, right?
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And I started going, Would you um think you are addicted or you have a healthy relationship?
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And across the board, young people, older people, the older, older people are less, their brains are less wired to their device, right?
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So it's it's kind of um less prevalent.
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But across the board, people were going, yep, addicted, addicted, addicted, addicted.
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So I was like, interesting.
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Yeah.
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And so I always do this thing when I do my talks on this, which is this kind of line between compulsion, compulsive behavior is like, ooh, I just feel like doing it sometimes, right?
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And then addictive behavior is, you know, even when I know I want to do something else, like talk to my wife, and I actually have a connection with my kids, I am still, oh, just give me a minute.
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It's right.
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And then what's funny with parents and and kids is um the the kids were like, you know, um, oh, you're you're always on your device, and you'll the parent will say, Yeah, but I'm doing important stuff.
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I'm on work, or I'm doing emails, or I'm doing it.
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Yeah, I do that a lot.
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Yeah, right?
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And like to a kid that they don't understand these like variables of what's important to them.
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Their social life is important.
00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:17.840
Children are played with the wife though, yeah.
00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:18.399
Oh, sure.
00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:21.519
Shut that down.
00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:24.480
I'm a good dad, honestly.
00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:33.519
But I mean it's easy to do because we are we are busy and we do have our work in our pockets and we can be doing things all of the time, you know.
00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:35.120
We almost don't realize we're doing it.
00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:36.799
It is a big shift, isn't it?
00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:44.399
Because we we talk about technology quite a bit on on the show, um usually within the parameters of buildings rather than individuals.
00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:49.200
Um but it is a massive shift and like with the advent of AI and so on and so forth.
00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:56.799
Um I mean, I think like the Internet of Things, and and I apply this to all technology, the Internet of Things changed society over a 20, 25 year period.
00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:01.200
So just I mean, it's completely different to when I was at school.
00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:04.399
I mean, I think AI will do the same thing but in five years.
00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:08.399
I think it will just completely transform everything that we do as a society.
00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:18.960
Um and how do you think, based on what you do for a living and the type of the type of things that you think about, the type of things, how do you think that will it impact the individual?
00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:21.759
Do you think that this addiction will get worse?
00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:26.240
Will it will we be instead of wearable tech, are we going to implant something in our brain?
00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:30.480
You know, like where where do you see this going and how will it impact us psychologically, do you think?
00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:37.120
Well, anyone who fully says that they have an answer to that question is lying because I don't think anyone fully knows.
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:39.840
We don't know the the the gravity of some of this.
00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:43.039
I'm actually an optimist, which surprises some people.
00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:43.360
Right.
00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:43.759
Yeah.
00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:52.000
Because I think the way many organizations have been working for centuries and you know, decades and decades is no longer fit for purpose.
00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:57.120
And I know in your business you've got kind of frontline staff and you've got back end staff and that sort of thing.
00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:03.759
But if you think of the normal office worker, right, who is working in a system that was set up for um factories, really.
00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:05.200
Clock in, clock out.
00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:07.039
The more, the longer you're there, the more you do, right?
00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:08.960
That's what the education system is about, isn't it?
00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:09.120
Yeah.
00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:09.440
Right.
00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:09.600
Yeah.
00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:21.919
And so we're still kind of we're in this, because of COVID, we're in this liminal kind of middle space where we're like hybrid, home, and now we're mandating people come back in, and nobody's it's just like it's so in a weird way, it's gotta get worse before it gets better.
00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:22.240
Yeah.
00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:24.799
So and that's what's happening is it is getting worse.
00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:29.039
People are restructuring and changing and scared and nervous and all this sort of thing.
00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:33.759
But if you look at history, it's gotta kind of take this dip where we're like, guys, this isn't working.
00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.320
We've got it, and AI is helping us disrupt that.
00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:36.639
Yeah.
00:15:36.799 --> 00:15:42.720
So I do think there's this potential and opportunity for us to work in better, different ways.
00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:53.200
The flip side from the individual perspective is isolation, loneliness, um, and the impact of that on our mental health and our ability to.
00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:54.879
Here's a question for you.
00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:59.440
What's your main social media platform that you like consume information?
00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:02.799
So not LinkedIn, that's like work, but like what do you consume?
00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:04.240
Well, it is actually LinkedIn.
00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:05.440
It's being really sad.
00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:11.679
Um, the the the one the one that I probably do consume, it would be Facebook, but not to interact with people.
00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:12.480
No, horrible.
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:13.840
Um, no, I don't want to do that.
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:14.879
Why would you do that?
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:17.039
That's why it was set up, but whatever.
00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:18.720
No, but I'm I'm really into like it.
00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:25.840
I'm really into things that that I'm into things like cryptids and um UFOs, and I like thinking about what so I'll watch.
00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:32.240
I'm really sad, but I'll if there's a Bigfoot, if it's 10 minutes on Bigfoot or Dogman or UFOs.
00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:34.080
I I will stop at that video and watch it.
00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:36.639
And politics probably as well, because I'm interested in that too.
00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:36.960
Right.
00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:42.720
So the fun question is like, what are the two things that your algorithms are feeding back to you because they know you like it?
00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:44.879
Oh, yeah, Bigfoot and So and so.
00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:45.360
Okay.
00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:47.600
That's in every Bigfoot documentary.
00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:52.879
So UFOs and Bigfoot and then politics, which is kind of just as crazy.
00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:54.639
Yeah, and that's and that's mental as well.
00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.360
But that the algorithms are bad as well, though, because I don't know.
00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:03.440
But everyone's experiencing a different version of reality because of that, which is very interesting.
00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:03.840
Sorry.
00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:04.799
No, it's fine.
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:05.920
That is crazy though.
00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:16.640
Like when you actually think about it, because the algorithms are pushing individual narratives that are specific to what you perhaps search, we've got this massively polarized society now, haven't we?
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:17.920
Where that's what I'm worried about.
00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:18.720
That's scary.
00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:20.720
And it becomes your truth.
00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:26.880
You just think this is the way the world goes, and you see the way people do conflict, where they avoid conflict.
00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:34.960
That's what lots of younger people are saying coming into the workplace we really want to learn from other people, but we're just really scared of like face-to-face interaction.
00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:35.119
Yeah.
00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:35.440
Right?
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:36.880
It's like, ooh, humans, right?
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:37.359
Oh no.
00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:42.640
But hey, I'll tell you everything I think on text or on chat or on Messenger or whatever else, right?
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:43.279
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:57.519
Um do you notice when you're like well, so your well-being is up and your algorithms are showing you a certain thing, and then if it's down, so it dips a bit because you're stressed or you're tired or whatever, life happens, do your algorithms change for you?
00:17:58.000 --> 00:17:58.799
I haven't noticed that.
00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:02.000
Because mine will starkly change within like 48 hours.
00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:02.799
Will they really?
00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:03.119
Yeah.
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:05.200
Like it identifies your mood?
00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:06.799
Well, kind of.
00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:12.640
Like so my two so YouTube's probably the one where I consume a little bit of your stuff.
00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:16.000
And the two things, if when I'm well, it's very clear.
00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:23.119
I have personal development stuff, podcasts like this, um, personal development, you know, all this stuff, and I have workout videos.
00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:24.799
So like boom, boom, boom, boom.
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:26.079
I'm like, influence me.
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:26.720
It's great.
00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:30.000
Um within like 24 or 48 hours.
00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:34.640
So, you know, I I live with PTSD and I've, you know, sometimes the stress, like the triggers, whatever.
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:39.039
I'll start scrolling, just like, you know, that kind of mood, because I'm just like, fuck it, I'm tired.
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:49.680
I'm just gonna and within maybe a 12-hour period, my algorithms are now showing me 9-1-1 emergency calls, because for some reason that's fun.
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:50.079
Yeah.
00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:51.200
Have you ever seen those?
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:52.000
No, I have, yeah.
00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:53.680
Like 9-1-1, what's your emergency?
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:55.680
It's like my husband's being murdered in the bedroom.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:58.799
It's a toddler going, my dad just shot my mum.
00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:00.480
Oh, god, sorry.
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:01.759
That's fine.
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:03.440
You shouldn't interview me at night.
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:04.720
No, no, this is fine.
00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:06.000
This is exactly what we want to say.
00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:09.759
Um, and then children being rescued from abusive households.
00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:10.559
Really?
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:11.519
Yeah.
00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:13.599
Because I'm just like, oh, rescue them.
00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:15.279
And it's like a weird dopamine thing.
00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:15.599
Wow.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:16.000
Yeah.
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:22.400
So then I do that for an hour, and then I'm like, whoa, I need to take a step away.
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:27.680
And basically reset my algorithm so that they can influence me in a way that I in a positive way.
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:31.440
Which is me trying to hack the system for myself, you know.
00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:32.000
Okay.
00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:40.240
So have they shown you what what like one video that's outside of your usual thing, and then you've watched that for a period, and then the algorithm's gone, ah, she likes that.
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.440
Yeah, so then it gives you like, ooh, workout, and then it's like, oh, emergency.
00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:44.480
That I've had before.
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:45.279
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:47.359
And so like if you get stuck in a loop.
00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:51.440
And and again, what's interesting in asking people scrolling, that's what they call it these days, isn't it?
00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:51.759
They do.
00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:53.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:57.200
But then dream scrolling is also like all the terrible things happening in the world.
00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:57.519
Yeah.
00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:04.160
You know, and of course there's terrible things, but in the research for my book that it said bad news travels six times faster than good news.
00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:04.480
Yeah.
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:08.240
And so we're getting this feeling or this loop that the world's a terrible place.
00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:10.160
Yeah, and we're all gonna die, you know.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:10.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:11.119
Right.
00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:16.720
And then you go about your day-to-day life and you're like, oh, nice person, polite person, because we did good work, you know.
00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:22.079
And so there's like a mismatch between what we're being fed is happening and our actual experience.
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:27.680
But our nervous system is experiencing bad news travels six times faster than good news.
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:32.240
So that means we're like in this like fight or flight survival kind of mode.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.680
But actually, our day-to-day, like, hey, I'll order a coffee, let me do my job.
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:42.400
Well, 95% of the people you meet in your day-to-day will be very, very nice to you and very, very pleasant, and it'll be a pleasant experience.
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:52.559
But that 5% is probably replicated, is that 5% in real life probably becomes 95% in the world of the internet, I suppose, social media, whatever you call it.
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:53.119
Online.
00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:54.240
That world, yeah.
00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:54.960
Yeah, that world.
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:56.240
But that's that's crackers.
00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:58.160
So you mentioned your past.
00:20:58.799 --> 00:20:59.519
I do want to talk about this.
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:00.400
Sure, because of course.
00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:07.119
I think it's such a cool um I like your story, Petra, in terms of where it started and then where you got to, and so on and so forth.
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:13.920
So talk talk to us a little bit about your youth, um, and and and talk to us a little bit about some because I know that you're perfectly happy to share these things.
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:23.039
Yeah, otherwise I wouldn't talk to us a little bit about some of the challenges that you had, how you got through those challenges, and how you got to where you are now, because I think that that's a very cool story.
00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:23.759
Thank you.
00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:32.480
Yeah, and uh, I guess it's a long one, but yeah, the the shorter version is I was I'm Dutch, which not everyone can realize, but my my surname's Dutch.
00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:43.839
But um I grew up in communes, and it's interesting these days when I just give that version, when I say I grew up in communes all over the world, people kind of lean in and and they're like, Tell me more.
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:45.119
They're like, Where is it?
00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:46.079
Are they recruiting?
00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:47.039
And I'm like, huh.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:51.680
And that's because people are lonely and they're lacking community.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:52.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:58.640
And all these things are popping up, these like places and you know, for people to try and do community differently.
00:21:58.720 --> 00:21:58.880
Yeah.
00:21:59.039 --> 00:21:59.759
So I get to toy with.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.640
People a little bit.
00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:03.359
But the reality is, I was born in a religious cult.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:03.599
Yeah.
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:05.200
And it's pretty notorious.
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:10.480
I read this magazine article once that had like the top 100 worst cults in the world.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:13.519
And this it was number 29 or something, which yeah.
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:16.160
So it's it's um it's not nothing, right?
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:20.720
What what we sort of experienced and um to see you know, talk about the end of the world.
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:22.400
We we were preparing for the end of the world.
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:25.839
Like can we can I say who I know who's children of God?
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:30.240
Children of God, and then they rebranded at some point into yeah, as you do.
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:34.799
The cult rebrand because they could website social media page.
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:35.279
Totally.
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:36.079
No, it was.
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:37.200
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:47.200
They had to like become well, because there was lots of like police raids and kids being taken away and social services, and there was a whole phase where that sort of thing was happening.
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:47.599
Wow.
00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:57.680
Um and so they rebranded and they discounted some of the stuff that had happened, and you know, because I'm I'm am I right in saying a certain celebr there was a celebrity that was part of that.
00:22:57.839 --> 00:22:59.279
Is it Rose McGowan or someone like that?
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:01.920
Rose McGowan, Joaquin Phoenix and his family.
00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:03.279
Yeah, there was quite a few people as well.
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:03.920
Quite a few people.
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:09.519
But also in the early in the 70s, which is when it started, it seemed pretty cool.
00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:19.119
It was music, it was young people, the ethos was like, let's rebel against the church system, which um is keeping us, you know, giving our money to these stuffy people.
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.200
Like we should go out in the world and do good things.
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:21.519
Yeah.
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:24.799
So that's the premise that my parents joined in that generation.
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:26.880
Were like, we should go out and do good things.
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:27.119
Yeah.
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:45.519
And we were doing, like I lived in India and and Brazil and Russia and Kenya and all these places where we were really young and and doing school, like there was some really now I can appreciate like the the cultures I spent time in, the people like it really gives me an edge in the work in the life that I do now, because I can see things from all these perspectives.
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:45.759
Yeah.
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.319
Whereas some people can't if they've just grown up in this one.
00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:51.680
Yeah, and in that little box that and they've never stepped outside of it.
00:23:53.839 --> 00:24:02.640
If you've got a lived experience in several boxes, then I'm in a blended family, so my dad's black, my mom's white, like I'm the only blonde kid in my sibling group.
00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:05.200
I thought my black brother was my twin till I was about eleven.
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:06.240
Like it was crazy.
00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:07.839
We're the same age.
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:14.319
So we had these perspectives on each other's lives that was just maybe now I realize quite unique.
00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:14.799
Right.
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:24.480
And we were quite we were raised to feel like we were special, we were part of something, we belong to a bigger purpose and mission, and all of that feels really good, right?
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:29.039
But it also then has a toxic side because you don't want to leave that.
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:38.880
So there would be like these warning stories that if this person left and they became an addict or a prostitute or whatever, and those would be the stories that you'd like be on repeat.
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:43.839
So they'd like to focus on the the negative elements rather than anything positive.
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:45.039
Well, that's what the media does, isn't it?
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:50.319
But also not taking into account that we didn't go to school as kids, we didn't have resources.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:25:00.559
Often our parents gave all their money to this group, and like if you made the brave decision, especially at 15 or something, to leave, which which many people did, where did you go?
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:04.000
You couldn't just get a job, you've missed school, you didn't, you know.
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:08.400
So you might end up in a dodgy job or somewhere just to survive or get by.
00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:14.000
But then they would use that as this narrative of like, see, God punishes you if you don't listen.
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:22.079
Yeah, because and I guess as well, a lot of people end up getting taken advantage of by people when they leave that kind of environment because they don't have those.
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:23.759
That's that's very sad, isn't it?
00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:29.440
That's very it's a lot to um kind of build your life from afterwards, right?
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:30.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:33.279
When you when that's because remember, like my parents' generation joined.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:34.240
We were born into it.
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:34.640
Yeah.
00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:36.000
That's so you didn't know anything else.
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:36.319
No.
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:36.799
No, no.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:39.119
There's no before and after, like this is it.
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:43.200
This is and and we only had no one said, Who do you want to be when you grow up?
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:43.519
Yeah.
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:44.720
What job do you want to do?
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:47.759
It was like, you're going to be God's end-time soldier.
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:48.079
Yeah.
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:48.640
Soldier.
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:49.359
Really?
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:49.839
Yes.
00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:53.680
Um and when Armageddon, whatever, you're here to save the world.
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:58.559
And so, like, I mean, it's a different kind of pressure than like you should get a master's degree.
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:01.440
But it's like Well, it's a spiritual pressure, isn't it?
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:02.960
It's a huge pressure.
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:03.279
Yeah.
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:12.400
And then it's really got this thing about like guilt, and if you go a different way, you don't tell anyone because someone can snitch on you in the community.
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:13.839
So, like, who do you trust?
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:14.960
Like, yeah.
00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:17.839
So the older I got, the weirder it got in a way.
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:18.240
Yeah.
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:20.400
Um, so did you kind of age out of it then?
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:23.519
Did you did you were you quite willful and quite No.
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:27.119
No, I really I was the shyest, quietest.
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:29.680
This is hilarious that I speak on stage everywhere now.
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:29.920
Yeah.
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:31.119
I said nothing.
00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:34.720
My survival strategy was to be as invisible as possible.
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:35.359
Really?
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:35.839
Yeah.
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:37.440
I was not the troublemaker.
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:38.000
Right.
00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:38.480
At all.
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:39.599
My older sister was.
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:40.400
Oh, right.
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:40.559
Okay.
00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:45.920
Um and um, yeah, so I I was really quiet.
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:50.319
But underneath the surface, as I became a teenager, I started going, hmm.
00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:50.799
Yeah.
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:54.640
Like I had this fire in me that really wanted to do good in the world.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:59.359
And that I bought into that bit, which is why I almost ignored.
00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:02.000
And this really relates to toxic work cultures.
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:02.319
Yeah.
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:11.200
Just because we we we will agree to so much stuff because we get a paycheck, or because like we saw what happened to that guy when he spoke up, right?
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:11.680
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:18.960
And so if we talk about psychological safety and stuff, it's really hard to do when your whole system, that's how you you're safe, right?
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:20.559
Is in this context.
00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:23.519
So I kind of learned that um the hard way.
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:24.880
And then did I age out?
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:26.160
Well, the cult changed.
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:34.400
So when I was 13, the founder, the old kind of founder, um, died, and then his wife and took over, and so it had this different iteration.
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:38.000
But there was a little bit more freedom than what there'd been before.
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:38.799
Right, okay.
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:43.039
So when I was a young adult, I start I got really good at leading a double life.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:52.880
So I wasn't the outwardly difficult one, I was the sneaky one who could be like, I'm so good over here, and then just you know, drink and do drugs.
00:27:54.640 --> 00:28:02.880
But but also like if you don't have a way to health to express what's going on for you in a healthy way, yeah, it often comes out in a negative way.
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:04.079
Yeah, in a negative way.
00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:16.240
And so for me, that double life was going on for a while, and then I met my my now ex-husband, but the father of my kids, yeah, and we partied uh in secret for a while.
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:18.960
Um I and then I fell pregnant with my son.
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:19.359
Right.
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:22.000
After three months of like partying.
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:28.240
You don't really know a person from the foundation of a great relationship, but respect to him.
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:33.200
He said, because I was living in Amsterdam, he said, Come move to London and we'll figure this out.
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:33.599
Yeah.
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:36.319
And so that was my before and after.
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:42.240
So I moved to London, seven months pregnant, move in with my boyfriend and his best mate.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:42.640
Yeah.
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:50.160
And so I'd love to say that that was the part of the story where and then they lived happily ever after, and she built a business and it was all wonderful.
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:50.799
Yeah.
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:58.400
Unfortunately, sometimes it's when you leave the toxic environment and you're actually safe that your body just falls apart.
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:06.720
So I'm I'm like in London for the first time, I'm isolated, I don't have any support network other than my partner and his his family.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:07.200
Yeah.
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:10.799
I'm trying to fit into their culture and their way of doing things.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:16.079
I feel shame that I don't have an education, I don't have a kind of a lot of things.
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:22.400
And I then have my daughter, so I'm like this housewife, like playing this role, and I'm not made for that kind of thing.
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:24.079
Just to be how old were you then, Petra?
00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:24.480
Obviously.
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:25.839
So I was 23 when I had my son.
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:26.799
So still young.
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:28.400
Yeah, still very, very young, yeah.
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:34.559
But so I'm so I have two kids, and then I'm 25 when I step into a classroom for the first time.
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:35.279
Really?
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:35.920
Yeah.
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:40.160
To get to start my and I'm not saying we didn't have an education.
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:47.279
We we, you know, um, we were taught to read and write, and we were homeschooled in the way that was allowing for propaganda and stuff.
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:52.480
I got a library card, which I, you know, voraciously like read any book I could get my hands on.
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:59.920
So very like self-taught and resourceful, but not actually, I didn't have a high school diploma, I didn't have like anything like that.
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:06.640
And so um, I guess it was this afterbit that really got tough because my addiction got much worse.
00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:12.240
I've got two young kids, I'm starting to pretty much lose my mind while I'm trying to go to school.
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:21.839
And having a purpose your whole life, even if it's given to you, and then to have no purpose, to feel punished by God, because that's still my brain is just about it.
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:24.079
That's the propaganda still, yeah, yeah.
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:27.359
And then I think that I've made a mistake by having my kids.
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:30.160
Oh, yeah, I know, and it's and it's awful.
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:40.480
And you know, we've they're they're young adults now, and we we talk a lot about like, you know, some of these these stories and and how I've learned to support them, even and they've taught me so much, you know.
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:40.880
Yeah.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:56.799
Um, but to answer that question about like how do you get from that to this slowly, and you know, and I had to get sober, and that really helped because for me, alcohol specifically was the the massive depressant.
00:30:56.960 --> 00:30:57.200
Really?
00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:02.640
And so within a week or two of drinking, even now if I go back to it, right?
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.599
Um I just spiral into depressive, suicidal ideation.
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:13.279
Yeah, it just it's a mental illness, not just the physical thing that many people think about.
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:13.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:18.799
So I had to get sober, night school, working, I was in youth mental health for a while.
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:26.480
Um, and eventually I got sick of um working for companies that were telling other people what to do and not doing it themselves.
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:28.559
I was like, I have led a double life.
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:28.720
Yeah.
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:29.920
And it almost killed me.
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:32.000
I was like, I can't, I like I can't do it.
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:33.119
I've got to find another way.
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:33.359
Yeah.
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:39.599
And so that was the kind of seed of starting my own business and just trying to prove a point.
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:44.960
Like, could we live in a healthy way ourselves as a business while teaching other people?
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:47.599
That was basically the thing I wanted to prove.
00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:50.160
And hey, the rest they say is history.
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:53.279
Yeah, maybe how long have you been in business?
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:55.680
We've probably been like eight years.
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:56.480
Eight years.
00:31:56.640 --> 00:31:57.200
That's fantastic.
00:31:57.359 --> 00:31:57.519
Yeah.
00:31:57.680 --> 00:31:59.920
And you've grown quite considerably, haven't you, over that period?
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:02.559
Well, we we kind of I grew my business.
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:10.240
I had quite a few employees, and then realized that the structure of it meant that I could do less of what I love doing, and I'm really good at.
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:10.400
Yeah.
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:19.920
So I ended up shrinking back, and I've got freelancers who deliver the training, a small core team, and that's kind of just the right balance to because I just want to be taking action.
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:20.319
Yeah.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:20.960
You know what I mean?
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:22.720
Yeah, if not just- I get that, yeah.
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:22.960
Yeah.
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:24.160
So but it's pretty exciting.
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:27.519
You want to be in the weeds, uh really getting down to it.
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:40.640
And so how do you so if if you were to go into a workplace and you identified that it had a toxic work because I th I guess most people what they would do if they identified that would go in and go, right, let's get rid of this person and get rid of that person, right?
00:32:41.119 --> 00:32:41.759
You know, that would be.
00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:45.039
Yeah, but but that would be the approach, wasn't it?
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:52.079
So how how do you go about um because I find this quite interesting, you know, how do you go about changing the culture?
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:57.920
Because we've gone through something very similar here in the last um sort of 12 to 18 months.
00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:00.319
A lot of things that that that I suggested I learned from you actually.
00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:08.559
So you know, um, so so how how would you go out there for people listening, for people watching that perhaps have that issue or they've identified that issue?
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:09.599
What are the first steps?
00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:16.799
How do you well the first thing is it's usually not black or white, like it's not like it's all toxic or it's all wonderful and healthy.
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:31.519
Like even a healthy organization can experience um pockets where there's no psychological safety or what we call groupthink, which is we're agreeing to something because the most senior person in the room said it first, and we just go along with it.
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:36.559
And it's not even that they're toxic, it's just that that's how systems and groups often function.
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:36.799
Yeah.
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:41.440
And so you need to put steps in place to consistently think about your culture, right?
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:43.680
Even if it's healthy, even if you have good intentions.
00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:44.000
Yeah.
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:52.960
And then of course, we know there's the toxic ones that are like, oh, right, and everyone's toxic, and they just fire everyone that doesn't um kind of go with the with the party line.
00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:54.720
Most businesses are somewhere in the middle.
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:55.119
Yeah.
00:33:55.359 --> 00:34:06.319
With the amount of like leadership change and restructure and this, that, and the other, you're gonna have pockets where there's a stressed-out like survival mode manager who's treating people like shit.
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:07.119
You know what I mean?
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:11.599
So it it's first kind of knowing that we don't just wipe it with the same brush.
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:22.000
And I don't I'm not even from my perspective, these kind of diagnostics and surveys and these this it can give you a small insight, but it doesn't necessarily give you the picture of where to start.
00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:22.400
Right.
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:22.880
Right?
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:26.239
So when people say I'm stressed, I'm like, well, what does that mean?
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:26.639
Yeah.
00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:28.880
Uh stress is good for high performance.
00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:32.000
If you think of an elite football team, they're all a bit stressed.
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:32.559
Yeah, of course.
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:33.679
They've got to perform, right?
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:33.840
Yeah.
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:35.760
You gotta perform to your deadlines and whatever.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:40.079
So stress is not the enemy, but it's how we navigate it and and those sorts of things.
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:46.320
So for me, I'm totally fine with starting with a pocket of the business that gets it.
00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:57.039
And they're like, oh, so we really just want to make these this new team come together, or we want people to think about burnout and and back each other up and prevent maybe something that's happened already for them, right?
00:34:57.199 --> 00:34:57.360
Yeah.
00:34:57.599 --> 00:34:58.800
Um, and that's fine.
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:03.519
I like starting in a small place and then influencing from within, yeah, right?
00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:05.440
Because then you're educating every bit.
00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:12.559
Because not every company comes to you and goes, here's, you know, loads of resources, sort it out, right?
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:14.800
Unlimited resources, do whatever you want, right?
00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:15.039
Yeah.
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:20.800
So often you have to be proving yourself within it, but also be getting these influencers in the business.
00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:27.039
It might start with the people team or a leader who maybe saw me at a keynote and is like, do that thing with our team, right?
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:27.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:29.679
Which is a great way in when that happens, actually.
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:30.320
Yeah, of course.
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:35.360
Um and then we want to think about connecting the dots between high performance and well-being.
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:42.000
That's the language that even the leaders, the resources, they're like, oh, we can do we can be on the same side here.
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:49.199
So often as as you know, it's like, oh, here's a number to call, or here's something, you know, some support for people who are struggling.
00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:50.880
And I'm like, it's a bit late.
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:51.360
Yeah.
00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:52.559
What happens before?
00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:53.519
Yeah, of course.
00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:56.719
So I'm interested in the what that's useful, of course.
00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:02.159
We need those kind of things to back people up, but I'm interested in culture, meeting culture.
00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:03.119
How do we interact?
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:04.800
What's the psychological safety like?
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:08.400
Do we have a shared language around burnout prevention?
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:11.119
Um, and even just checking in with each other.
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:11.679
Yeah.
00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:19.760
Because as you know from my story, it's not always the person who looks like, you know, they're a poor performer and they're just filthy.
00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:27.039
And, you know, I did this school workshop one and I said, and I went, draw a per draw a picture in a group of someone who's mentally unwell.
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:27.519
Yeah.
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:29.280
And they were creative.
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:40.960
They drew what looked like a homeless person with flies around him and like scraggly hair and clo, you know, so like these perceptions of what somebody whose brain is struggling looks like is runs deep.
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:46.159
Well, I mean, to be fair, that's that's one of the things that really stuck with me when you did that presentation.
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:50.320
You know, you had that picture of you where you actually looked like you were going through something, yeah.
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:52.480
And then you had this lovely picture of you and your daughter.
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:57.039
And the question that you asked was, out of these two pictures, which one of these people is struggling?
00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:59.199
And you would automatically think it was the first picture.
00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:03.119
You would, but it wasn't, it was the second one, um, which I found quite interesting.
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:09.920
And then like kind of after that as well, do you have you seen that television advertisement where there's a guy going to the football match every single day?
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:12.320
And there's that guy that looks really, really sad.
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:16.719
Um and then for whatever reason, it's the guy that's happy that doesn't turn up to the last game.
00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:21.199
But I I found that really interesting because obviously I saw your presentation before that advertisement came out.
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:39.840
Um that kind of resonated with me in terms of like you can never really identify who is actually having a potential issue problem, whether whether that's uh in in terms of mental health or performance in the workplace or and it's it it's so difficult to it's personal, yeah.
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:44.960
And especially at work, yeah, that's the place that you're paying me to do a job.
00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:49.760
I'm gonna hide anything to do with my weakness and quotation marks, right?
00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:51.360
That could be used against me.
00:37:51.440 --> 00:38:00.159
And as much as I'd like to encourage people to openly talk and all these things, in some, those toxic cultures, it probably will be used against you.
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:00.400
Yeah.
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:09.519
So you maybe need to get your resources and do the talking in a say like outside of work or with that helpline number, if that is your your context, right?
00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:20.239
But I'm seeing lots of workplaces that are changing, which is amazing, where you can have those open conversations and just check in in a way that I always say, oh, people.
00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:24.079
We talk, we check in by talking about the weekend, the weather, and sports.
00:38:24.400 --> 00:38:24.880
Yeah, we do.
00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:25.519
Yeah, I agree.
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:26.639
And fine.
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:28.239
It's a very like thing to do.
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:32.320
And in other countries, it's slightly different, which is cute when you find out like what the thing is.
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:33.360
But there's always three.
00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:35.599
And fine, those are like bonding rituals.
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:36.400
How's the weekend?
00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:36.880
Yeah.
00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:41.119
How is the weekend is not going, hey, how are you really doing?
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:41.920
That's true.
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:45.440
Because what you're people go, ooh, we do this little ping-pong thing, right?
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:51.599
Where either I'm fine or I'm busy, or yeah, you know, the family, you know, you just kind of do a little, watch the football, whatever.
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:52.719
And so, right?
00:38:53.599 --> 00:39:02.559
It's just like and so like I'm fine with that stuff, but if you're especially if you're a leader, but I think we're all leaders in our culture, like we can all create impact.
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:11.039
Ask more creative questions, or let the weekend, the weather, and sports be like a bridge that allows you to then go, so how's it really going?
00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:14.880
Or um, or what's going well in your life these days?
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:18.000
You remember that, like, yeah, everyone's like, Oh, are you okay?
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:20.239
And think that that's how we check in about mental health.
00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:20.960
Yeah, that's true.
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:21.199
Yeah.
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:24.719
And I asked my team, what's the best thing that happened to you last week?
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:27.280
Or, you know, what's one thing you're really proud of?
00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:30.079
Like, that's creating culture as well.
00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:31.440
Positive psychology.
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:31.920
Yeah.
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:40.239
So do you think um, because I think some people would be a little bit fearful of that because of the litigious nature of our working society?
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:47.519
So because there's certain things that you can ask people, and there's other things that perhaps you can't, or that can be I guess, twisted.
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:57.119
Interpreted interpreted by a certain so that that once again is a difficult so how how would you assess that within an organization, or how would you approach that?
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:02.719
Well, again, there's certain things that are more common sense that maybe we're a bit careful of.
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:07.039
Everyone's roles are different, so I can't, you know, there will be nuance, of course.
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:07.679
Yeah, of course.
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:12.639
I always think what's worthwhile is doing this as a team.
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:15.599
So we have this team expectation of how we want to be.
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:16.960
So people feel more comfortable.
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:17.440
Yeah.
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:21.280
So it's like, yes, you can be asking more creative questions, absolutely.
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:24.559
But and be careful, whatever, if that if if if you need to be.
00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:29.840
But if you bring in to a team chat, like let's talk about how we work, not what just what we do.
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:33.760
When we perform at our best, how do we know if somebody needs some backup?
00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:38.960
How do we know like have having those chats then goes, all right, well, and it's normal.
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:44.320
Like in my team, it's just so normal to just say, we actually say, How's your mental health today?
00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:44.719
Yeah.
00:40:44.960 --> 00:40:45.519
Yeah, totally.
00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:46.719
I'd I've done that before.
00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:51.760
You know, I'd like to I mean I'm pretty open anyway, Petra, as you know, like I'll have those conversations with people.
00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:56.400
It's more certain, but it's more normal in certain I I do it cheekily.
00:40:56.480 --> 00:40:57.039
I'm cheeky.
00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:01.679
But that's a good way, like to use a bit of humor and connection.
00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:06.559
It doesn't have to be like I have seen these businesses where they have a well-being room.
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:06.880
Yeah.
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:08.639
And I'm like, where's this room?
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:10.079
It's like in a basement.
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:12.480
And it's like, I'm like, oh, there's like tissues.
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:14.159
I'm like, who's coming in here to talk?
00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:18.000
Like it used to be a shower next to the disabled toilet, but now it's a well-being room that they're.
00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:18.480
Exactly.
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:21.360
And there's bean bags, and you're like, it doesn't make sense.
00:41:21.519 --> 00:41:22.639
No, no, it doesn't make sense.
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:23.280
No, no.
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:33.280
Because if if if somebody I I honestly feel that if somebody was feeling, let's say, overwhelmed within the workplace and and you wanted to talk to them, I wouldn't take them to a well-being room.
00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:35.599
I would take them off site and take them for a coffee.
00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:35.760
Yeah.
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:45.360
You know, and just a walk of coffee, you know, a bit of fresh air, an environment where they felt more comfortable having a conversation, a closed door with four walls.
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:48.639
It to me does not elicit let's have a chat.
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:53.519
And these days, I always say, because so many people are hybrid or remote, right?
00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:53.760
Yeah.
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:56.400
And so that might not always be the option.
00:41:56.559 --> 00:41:56.800
No.
00:41:56.960 --> 00:41:59.440
But like, don't even have a formal Teams call.
00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:00.960
Like pick up the phone.
00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:01.360
Yeah.
00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:03.119
And be like, hey, I'm out for a walk.
00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:04.400
Should we do a little walk and talk?
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:05.199
Just want to check in.
00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:06.559
Five minutes, ten minutes.
00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:10.159
Like, we get very formal, like, let's have a teams call, 30 minutes.
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:13.360
And you're like, it's like, what do you expect of me?
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:15.119
So tell me how are you?
00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:15.519
Like that.
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:16.719
Yeah, I do it all the time.
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:18.159
I do it with my team all the time.
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:20.239
I just teams them, like, and I'll do it randomly.
00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:22.559
You know, I'll just have some at the sky, and some will pop me out.
00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:24.639
Ah, I need to have a chat with so and so about us.
00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:25.360
I'll just teams them.
00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:26.159
And they're like, oh hello.
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:28.960
It's always like they always think I'm trying to catch them out.
00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:30.000
I'm genuinely not.
00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:32.559
You know, like I just I don't care what they're doing, you know what I mean?
00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:37.199
Like, I mean, my my view of productivity is I don't care what hours you do as long as the work gets done.
00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:37.840
That's my view.
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:40.880
You can do it whenever you want, as long as it gets done and we meet the deadlines.
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:44.719
Um, but like sometimes I can tell by their face, they're like, oh, he's trying to, and I'm not.
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:46.719
But I'm not trying to catch you out.
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:48.559
But do you say explicitly that you're not?
00:42:48.800 --> 00:42:49.280
Oh, yeah, I do.
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:52.400
You have to say it out loud, otherwise, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:53.199
No, they're allowed.
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:54.239
But I don't think so.
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:55.440
But if you don't say it, you know.
00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:57.599
No, yeah, no, they know I'm pretty like, you know.
00:42:58.000 --> 00:42:58.880
Hello, how are you?
00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:01.280
You know, and one of my table, oh, I just had a workout.
00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:02.239
I'd be like, Oh cool, man.
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:04.159
Good you're looking after your physical well-being.
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:04.960
Nice, yeah.
00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:05.840
Do you know what I mean?
00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:07.039
So I kind of do it that way.
00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:08.800
Because like I said, I I genuinely don't care.
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:09.760
They're all adults, aren't they?
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:13.519
You know, and if I can't trust them, then I wouldn't have brought them onto my team if that makes sense.
00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:14.639
Which is how it should be.
00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:16.559
Yeah, which which I think is really important.
00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:27.440
So so sort of moving forward, is it talking about um yeah, because obviously, you know, keynote speaking, TED talks, um, how do you get ready for them?
00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:30.079
And what what was your first one like, Petra?
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:31.280
Were you nervous?
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:32.880
Yeah, of course.
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:33.679
What was that like?
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:35.039
So I still get nervous.
00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:35.599
Yeah.
00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:37.599
Um, well, I remember.
00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:44.960
So I had done workshops in schools for a couple years, and so I'd been with kids, and trust me, kids will tell you to your face if you're shit.
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:45.199
Yeah.
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:47.440
And so it really is the mine tell me all the time.
00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:49.519
Well, so it's really the way to learn.
00:43:49.599 --> 00:43:49.679
Yeah.
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.480
Because you you're like, okay, feedback loop is immediate.
00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:56.480
It's not this like delayed survey of like, could have been better with this politeness, right?
00:43:56.880 --> 00:43:57.360
That's true, yeah.
00:43:57.599 --> 00:43:59.760
And they'll vote with their feet, they'll just be like disengaged.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:00.719
Immediately.
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:04.079
And I worked in with kids who'd been kicked out of school and young offenders.
00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:06.079
And so they would sort quite challenging.
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:07.440
They would tell children anyway, yeah.
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:09.679
Right.
00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:12.800
So when I got into the corporate.
00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:16.320
Exactly.
00:44:18.079 --> 00:44:20.559
And so two things, two things I remember.
00:44:20.719 --> 00:44:26.960
One was I did my very first law firm, and there maybe was were 60 people in the room, right?
00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:28.239
Pre pre-COVID.
00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:31.360
And it was like a paid gig, and it was more like a keynote.
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:34.800
And basically, you just had an hour, right?
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:37.519
And everyone's like in the same gray suit like that.
00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:42.320
And I was thinking, I was like, give me a kid who's got a weapon any day.
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:44.400
Like I don't know what to do with these people.
00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:51.840
But then I realized that I actually had an edge over corporate trainers because I believed I had to earn your attention.
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:52.320
Yeah.
00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:57.280
I like I'm not taking this for granted, but I realized they just are gonna have to be there, you know.
00:44:58.079 --> 00:44:59.360
Well, they paid to be the salary, isn't it?
00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:03.440
Yeah, it's like the the energy that I brought to it was one that was earning their attention.
00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:05.280
And I was like, and then it landed really well.
00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:09.760
Like I would get people up and I would get people doing things and chatting and you know.
00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:12.719
Um but I remember the first one that was filmed.
00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:16.559
So I went up to Manchester, it was for have us um links, yeah.
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:20.960
And and um they were live streaming it, and so they said no audience interaction.
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:22.480
And I relied on that.
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:23.039
Oh no.
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:26.159
And they were just like, You've got an hour, we'll do QA at the end.
00:45:26.320 --> 00:45:29.199
And I found this out 10 minutes before we were due to go on.
00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:30.719
I was bricking it.
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:33.119
I was like, How am I gonna fucking talk for that long?
00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:34.719
Yeah, what am I gonna say?
00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:46.000
Because I always use these tactics of like asking a question or talk to the person next to you, and I'd check my notes, I'd take a breath, I'd drink some water, you know, and be like that that interaction kind of cues you for the next bit, doesn't it?
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:46.800
It sets you up.
00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:47.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:54.079
And you just have to get into flow and the show must go on, and you just sink or swim and you figure it out.
00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:54.639
Wow.
00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:56.559
Did you have a PowerPoint then that you were delivering?
00:45:57.440 --> 00:45:58.079
I had a PowerPoint.
00:45:58.400 --> 00:45:59.760
So that that gives you that Yeah.
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:00.239
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:04.159
But there's like a picture on the PowerPoint, but it gives me, yeah, yeah, I had a little structure.
00:46:04.239 --> 00:46:05.440
I kind of knew what I was doing.
00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:09.199
But I was like, is it gonna be long enough if I'm not getting them to do anything?
00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:13.920
I each each slide I had to stretch with with stories and anecdotes and stuff, right?
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:14.159
Yeah.
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:14.719
Yeah.
00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:18.320
Um see I'm a professional attention seeker, so I'd probably enjoy it.
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:20.719
But that's it's to people all the time, you know.
00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:20.880
Yeah.
00:46:21.039 --> 00:46:22.320
But it's I don't think I would.
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:23.840
If I got up there, I think it'd be very different.
00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:25.280
But an hour is a long time.
00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:26.719
That is a long time to talk.
00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:32.800
And now I've done like a thousand people, like stay like Madonna mics and lights and what's that like?
00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:33.840
It's it's cool.
00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:39.280
Is it is it the I've heard I've heard from people before that the the more you speak to, the easier it is.
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:46.000
So it's actually more difficult, let's say, in a town hall with 25 people than it is in a big auditorium with a thousand.
00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:46.800
Kind of.
00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:52.000
Yeah, because it's uh someone said to me, they said it it was a little bit more personal in that town hall setting.
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:54.800
So you could actually hear what people, you know, someone thought you were shit.
00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:56.960
Well if someone picks their phone up or whatever.
00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:08.559
Yeah, it was very whereas in an auditorium it was i i this guy said to me it's it's just very different because there's always going to be an element of the audience that is engaged, so you don't quite notice the people that aren't as much.
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:19.679
But if you lose your voice or choke or like something, yeah, the shame feeling of like a thousand people looking at you really is like a little bit higher.
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:20.719
Wow.
00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:22.400
So how does it feel now then?
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:24.000
Because uh you've done a lot of these now, haven't you?
00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:26.400
I've done so many, and so I get excited.
00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:29.519
I I've learned to um change fear into excitement.
00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:31.280
It's two sides of the same coin, right?
00:47:31.519 --> 00:47:36.400
And so I know the thing I've learned is I don't rehearse um like an hour or two before.
00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:39.440
Before I'd be like in my notes, like right before I got on stage.
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:44.800
But now I like trust that it's better for me not to be doing word for word anyway.
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:45.599
I I agree.
00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:46.559
I think it's more fluid.
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:52.800
Yeah, and I just I trust that I'll flow and it's always better than if I well that's why at this point we got no question set on this point.
00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:55.039
It's just two people sit down shooting the shit, you know what I mean?
00:47:55.119 --> 00:47:56.400
Because I think that that guy's better.
00:47:56.559 --> 00:48:00.320
Yeah, it comes comes across better to the audience, I think, which I think is really important.
00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:01.840
Just flow and get curious.
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:05.760
But also, I've been to so many countries, so many industries.
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:11.760
I'm doing this cybersecurity stuff, I'm doing um construction, I'm doing startups, fintech, whatever.
00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:12.000
Yeah.
00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:13.679
People are people.
00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:14.639
I agree.
00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:15.519
You know what I'm saying?
00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:15.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:24.880
And you realize like everyone's uh uh afraid, has relationship stuff, has like life stuff, has work pressures, AI, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:48:25.119 --> 00:48:26.719
Like the themes are really the same.
00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:34.159
It's like, how do I go about my day and feel good and feel like I have rich relationships and can invest in myself in useful ways.
00:48:34.400 --> 00:48:34.559
Yeah.
00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:35.599
Which is interesting.
00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:39.840
Slight different words if it's like senior leaders or you know, young people, whatever.
00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:41.440
Yeah, or C-suite or something like that.
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:42.559
You've got to have that different.
00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:46.800
So do you so so do you do you get involved with the younger generation quite a bit as well still?
00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:50.559
I know that that was a big part of your career, but are you still involved in that in some way?
00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:58.880
So I'm um so my last TEDx was at a university in Sweden, yeah, which was 500 people, and half of them were students.
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:08.719
And uh I was talking about how our you know, world that is diagnosing conditions is not actually useful for many of us, and it's keeping us stuck and whatever.
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:15.519
And that I was nervous about that, because it was I was presenting new content, you have 18 minutes, it's is supposed to be rehearsed.
00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:17.199
I was terrible, terrified.
00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:23.519
But it was afterwards that it was all the students that I was surrounded with questions and stories and whatever.
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:24.719
Oh, that's brilliant.
00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:31.679
So I've tried like, I always mentor a couple young people, but I've tried doing more volunteering and stuff.
00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:37.679
But the system is really set up to I'll try and volunteer with young people and they'll be like, Oh, can you train our staff?
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:42.559
And I'm like, oh, I'm busy.
00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:46.400
They're like, we could really use something on burnout, and you're coming as like, can I volunteer?
00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:47.840
So you can't just be like, no.
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:49.119
No, you've got to do something.
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:51.679
Oh, to be fair, I've got you here for free anyway, Petra, haven't I?
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:52.159
Let's be honest.
00:49:52.960 --> 00:50:14.239
Um let me ask you, if you were um to offer a piece of advice to somebody that was perhaps um experiencing a toxic workplace um and they didn't know how to approach that with senior management, SLT, or anything like that, what advice would you give to that individual about uh broaching that subject, I suppose?
00:50:14.320 --> 00:50:20.079
That in some circumstances, maybe it's a member of the team that's toxic, maybe it's whatever, um, and the senior leadership team isn't aware.
00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:24.320
How would you what would be the best way to Well, we want to be realistic.
00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:34.320
Yeah, you know, people probably need that paycheck, and they can't just do, you know, um you would have the self-help influencers that would just be like, quit, the next thing will show up, right?
00:50:34.480 --> 00:50:37.119
And I love all that, but like, let's also be realistic.
00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:38.880
You might have mouths to feed at home, whatever.
00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:39.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:41.760
But there's two, there's a way that you weigh this up.
00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:44.960
So one is what's in my control inside.
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:52.559
Sometimes we, without realizing it, become part of the toxic culture by spending all of our waking hours complaining about it.
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:52.800
Yeah.
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:56.480
And we are actually putting ourselves in this stressful energy that isn't.
00:50:56.880 --> 00:50:57.280
I've been there.
00:50:57.519 --> 00:50:58.400
I've been there, without doubt.
00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:02.079
And it's not proactive, and you're you're making yourself feel worse.
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:02.960
Of course, yeah.
00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:07.360
So the thing to do is outside of work, are you resourcing yourself?
00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:11.360
Are you swiping and dream scrolling the whole time, or are you going for a walk, connecting with someone?
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:15.440
Because you need your resources to be topped up in order to deal with this thing, right?
00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:15.920
Very true.
00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:17.760
So that's the bit in your control.
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:21.920
And then you want to think who are my allies in the business or influencers.
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:24.559
Now that's not just to have a bitch and a moon to.
00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:27.199
That's to be like, hey, did you notice this thing?
00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:28.000
What's possible?
00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:34.559
Who are the people that may be at the top who might be able to support if it's a micro incident versus a big systemic thing, right?
00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:34.960
Right.
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:35.199
Yeah.
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:37.599
So there's things that you can think about and do.
00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:46.400
If there's nothing that can be changed and you're resourcing yourself outside of it, you've got to weigh up the impact on your mental health long term of staying there.
00:51:46.719 --> 00:51:47.119
Yeah, true.
00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:47.599
Right?
00:51:47.679 --> 00:51:47.760
Yeah.
00:51:47.920 --> 00:51:55.119
And so if you stay there for three to six months, a year, two years, three years, even the paycheck, the safety, are you gonna now need long-term sick?
00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:56.000
Are you burnt out?
00:51:56.159 --> 00:51:57.199
Is your mental right?
00:51:57.440 --> 00:52:04.880
So that's where you have to weigh up like maybe you need to skill up, maybe you need to change something, not immediately, but have a plan.
00:52:05.199 --> 00:52:05.360
Yeah.
00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:13.360
So it's kind of the impact of every the the hit the impact of everything can in in singular parts can cause quite a bit of damage then, really.
00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:14.159
So much.
00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:18.000
And for those of us who are a little bit more sensitive to that, right?
00:52:18.079 --> 00:52:24.480
Maybe we've had toxic environments in the past, or maybe we've struggled with um anxiety, depression, whatever.
00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:29.440
Like if you are a higher risk and only you know that, well, you've really got to think about this.
00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:29.920
Yeah.
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:30.400
Right?
00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:34.960
And and I don't mean that in a, you know, you you can't do work or you need to leave.
00:52:35.039 --> 00:52:39.039
It's like you've got to weigh up realistically like the the impact on you.
00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:44.800
And you've got to do something about it before it chips away at you so much that you're just, oh, there's no point.
00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:45.199
Yeah.
00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:46.320
That's the dangerous bit.
00:52:46.639 --> 00:52:47.280
No, it is, yeah.
00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:58.000
And I think as well, I I mean, I don't know if you would agree with this, but uh, I think there's a lot of industries, business, and things like that that that talk a very good game in terms of mental health and wellness and culture.
00:52:58.239 --> 00:53:11.360
Um, and they'll put it in their paraphernalia and they'll say this and they'll do but they'll they'll say X and then they'll do Y, which in reality they're not doing any of those things, it's just a tick box exercise, it looks good and so on and so forth.
00:53:11.679 --> 00:53:18.000
Um, and and and and I don't think you can know that because whatever company you may join, they're gonna tell you this, they're gonna tell you that.
00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:30.320
But but there's no guarantee that you'll get that when when you know uh it'll feel like it is at day one, but it's usually day 15, day 16 when you realise this isn't quite what they said it was going to be, which is quite interesting.
00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:41.199
So, in your opinion, um what what industries um do you think are good at um providing a a positive It's about the people.
00:53:41.440 --> 00:53:41.920
Do you reckon?
00:53:42.079 --> 00:53:52.320
Yeah, because I've seen like property companies and like um construction or you know, ones that you think, oh well, it's mostly men and it's mostly this and it's mostly that, whatever.
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:57.760
And they've had, you know, a real incentive and drive to do these things in a useful way.
00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:04.960
Um we might talk about some kind of city jobs as you know, like um financial services, law firms.
00:54:05.119 --> 00:54:17.119
Um there there's definitely toxic work practices where it's still work all hours and competition, and and people say that they almost like it's they want to do it in a way at first.
00:54:17.199 --> 00:54:18.800
It's almost like expected, right?
00:54:18.960 --> 00:54:20.719
Yeah, I'm like, yeah, I work till 2 a.m.
00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:21.840
I'm like, why?
00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:23.679
Yeah, it becomes like a sport.
00:54:24.320 --> 00:54:26.000
Until it until you're injured.
00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:38.559
Yeah, no, no, I agree, but I think because I I have to check myself sometimes, Petra, because like not that I'm competing with anybody specifically, but like I I take an element of pride in my work and I take an element of pride in the success that I have as a direct result of it.
00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:39.840
So I will overwork.
00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:45.119
Um and like my bosses are always having to say to me, just chill out a little bit, you know what I mean?
00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:45.920
And and just calm down.
00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:48.159
Well, the question is what are you avoiding?
00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:49.679
I'm not really avoiding anything.
00:54:49.760 --> 00:54:51.760
I just I I'll I enjoy it.
00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:52.800
I enjoy it.
00:54:52.960 --> 00:54:54.400
Don't recycle my library.
00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:57.840
You brought me in here at the end of the day.
00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:00.000
I know, I know, you've done me in there.
00:55:01.039 --> 00:55:03.039
Well, I say it because I I relate to it.
00:55:03.119 --> 00:55:11.760
Yeah, you know, like it's easier for me to feel good at my job and get validation and you know, than it is to navigate like a difficult relationship conversation, you know.
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:18.480
So it's like, and I don't mean like when we like our work and it's purposeful and good and we like our team, cool.
00:55:18.559 --> 00:55:21.440
Like I think I'm doing good in the world and I'm passionate about it.
00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:23.760
But I'll, you know, sometimes work on weekends.
00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:25.360
It's my business, so fair enough.
00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:25.760
Yeah, yeah.
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:31.039
But I'll also go for long walks and coffees with friends on a Wednesday afternoon because I can.
00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:32.559
So for me, that's my version of it.
00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:33.440
I get that too.
00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:37.679
You know, like I'll get like I'll get like occasionally I'm very busy, so I have to work more.
00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:42.159
There's other times where it's not as busy, so I can relax a bit more and pull a bit of time.
00:55:42.800 --> 00:55:48.559
So it's more about for me, it's it's the quality of life associated with the role that I perform.
00:55:48.960 --> 00:55:54.480
So because I get that downtime from time to time, not very often at the minute, because it's been very busy January and February.
00:55:54.639 --> 00:55:57.920
Um, but but you know, it's it's it's but it doesn't have to be nine to five.
00:55:58.239 --> 00:55:59.519
No, it's peaks and troughs, you know.
00:55:59.599 --> 00:56:01.440
Like if I need to go somewhere, I can go somewhere.
00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:10.400
If I need to go um and see my daughter in a school play or go to a parents' evening or go to the hospital with my wife, or then I don't need to ask permission, I can just do it.
00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:12.079
That's great, which is great for me.
00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:17.119
So I don't mind occasionally working on weekends and things like that because it makes sense to me.
00:56:17.360 --> 00:56:18.400
Does that make sense?
00:56:18.639 --> 00:56:20.719
I think it's self-awareness, everything.
00:56:21.039 --> 00:56:25.760
So like we know, well, we don't know at first, but you can get to know if you're bullshitting yourself.
00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:26.719
Yeah, you know what I mean?
00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:27.840
Yeah, because people do.
00:56:28.079 --> 00:56:30.239
Well, I think as well, it's it's about whether or not you enjoy it.
00:56:30.400 --> 00:56:31.440
See, I really enjoy it.
00:56:31.519 --> 00:56:37.760
Like I enjoy, like I I I I can't remember the last time I woke up on a morning and went, oh yeah, exactly.
00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:38.960
I've got to go to work.
00:56:39.519 --> 00:56:41.519
I'm like, I get to do this, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:56:42.239 --> 00:56:43.920
Like these that I'm I'm excited about, you know.
00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:49.599
And and you know, the podcast has kind of worked for me as well, which I really enjoy because I get to meet lead loads of cool people, yeah.
00:56:49.760 --> 00:56:52.639
Um, and like I put on my LinkedIn project that I'm a collector of stylist.
00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:58.719
I am, I love hearing about people's lives, about what they do, about how they entered the industry, about you know, and I learn as well.
00:56:58.800 --> 00:57:03.519
Like I le I've learned lots from you in the two years that we've known each other, which has been which has been fantastic.
00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:05.039
So um, yeah, it's really, really cool.
00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:10.000
So, anyway, what is the name of the new book and how can people purchase it if they want to purchase it, Petra?
00:57:10.239 --> 00:57:14.800
Yeah, so digital well-being, yeah, long tagline, recharge your focus and reboot your life.
00:57:14.960 --> 00:57:21.679
Yeah, everyone needs a little bit of that um on my website, uh, which is my name, or uh Amazon and all the places.
00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:23.440
Yeah, how how much is it retail at?
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:24.880
I don't even know anymore.
00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:26.719
I think it's just sold too many.
00:57:26.960 --> 00:57:28.960
No, I think it's I think it's$11.99.
00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:29.519
Is it?
00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:30.800
I've I'm definitely gonna buy that though.
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:34.239
I wouldn't mind reading that because I think that that would be um very interesting.
00:57:34.400 --> 00:57:40.480
And what we'll do is we'll we'll pop a link, guys, um, under the post so that you can actually access the book if you want to.
00:57:40.639 --> 00:57:43.360
And any other projects coming coming through at the minute?
00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:44.800
Well, so so many.
00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:48.320
And as you know, LinkedIn is the place that I put lots of tips and tools.
00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:55.119
Um I'm also kicking off a free community for people who would put themselves under the well-being lead umbrella.
00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:55.280
Right.
00:57:55.519 --> 00:58:00.000
So that could be health and safety, it could be people officers, it could be managers, whatever.
00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:00.239
Yeah.
00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:04.239
But it's the people that are sick of tick boxes and want to know how to do it a different way.
00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:04.800
All right.
00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:06.559
Well, I think I think we'll we'll get involved in that.
00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:08.719
We'll get somebody from our business associate with that.
00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:09.360
That would be cool.
00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:10.239
Really good.
00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:11.039
All right, Petrick.
00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:12.559
Well, that kind of brings us to the end.
00:58:12.719 --> 00:58:13.519
Um, thank you very much.
00:58:13.599 --> 00:58:14.320
How did you find it?
00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:16.000
It's always fun hanging out with you.
00:58:16.239 --> 00:58:22.239
And like you said, it's just easy and chilled, and I'm glad I could uh hopefully offer some tips and advice through my story and stuff.
00:58:22.559 --> 00:58:35.440
Yeah, well, listen, um, we'd love to have you join us again in the future, maybe on a panel um that that deals specifically with those things and get your insights alongside other professionals in that sort of world, which I think would be really, really cool as an episode in the future.
00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:37.280
But do join us again, as ever, it's been a pleasure.
00:58:37.440 --> 00:58:38.079
Thank you very much.
00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:45.280
All right, guys, that brings us to the end of a fantastic episode of the Facilities Management Exchange.
00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:46.960
Um, thank you once again for joining us.
00:58:47.119 --> 00:58:56.800
As I said, if you do want to um check out Petra's work or her book, um then check out the comments section because the link will be in there, and feel free to download it.
00:58:56.880 --> 00:59:00.079
Or I'm guessing you can buy it electronically and all of that stuff these days.
00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:02.239
But as ever, that's the end of another show.
00:59:02.480 --> 00:59:04.000
It can't be good, be bad.
00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:05.039
Bye bye.