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Mickey Bowden was in-house counsel for Bikram Yoga, tasked with turning the wildly popular
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hot yoga practice into a world-class franchise.
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Instead, she uncovered Bikram's pattern of sexual harassment and assault, even becoming
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the target herself.
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So she did the unthinkable.
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Sued her own employer, took its trial, and bravely won a unanimous verdict from millions,
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but it cost her everything in the process.
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This is the Exit Interview.
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Hello everyone, welcome to the Exit Interview.
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If you liked this episode, please like, subscribe, and comment below, and we will continue
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to curate guests like this for you to enjoy.
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Thank you.
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Hi everyone, and welcome to the Exit Interview.
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We're really excited to bring you this episode today.
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Today we are lucky enough to have a great conversation with Mickey Bowden, lawyer, mom,
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and someone who's got a really interesting story we want to share with you today.
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So Mickey, welcome to the Exit Interview.
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Hello to your audience, great to be on your show, and congratulations to both of you for
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this wonderful contribution, I think, to the conversation.
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Thank you so much.
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We'd love to dive into your origin story as an attorney.
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How did you come and get your start in that and what was some of the early days of your
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sort of practicing life as an attorney?
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So I qualified as a lawyer when I was around 22 years old.
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The reason for that is we go to law school a lot earlier than you do in America.
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I've been, you know, a lawyer ever since at this point in time, obviously, I am not practicing.
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I just want to say, although I am coming to you from Georgetown Law, I am appearing on
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your show in my personal capacity.
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And I want to thank my colleagues and my friends here for facilitating the use of the studio
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because I am on the East Coast.
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And yes, I went into international law pretty early on.
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I joined a big law firm in London and specialised in cross-border international, anything
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with an international dimension really.
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I also did a fair bit of banking and compliance related work, ended up being headhunted to
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come and work for the yoga business in Los Angeles.
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And at the same time, the CEO of the company got exited.
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So I took on responsibilities of the CEO and eventually got promoted to vice president
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of compliance for the franchise.
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I had a lot of hats on when I was out in LA running the yoga business.
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I basically just to catch you up to what that scenario was.
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I took them from being sort of a Mormon pop type operation to becoming a world-class franchise
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in less than three years.
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And it was an interesting situation because they already had hundreds of yoga studios all
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over the world in obviously in America, but also internationally in 38 different countries.
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But they hadn't been properly licensed and the IP hadn't been dealt with properly.
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It was kind of like a Mormon pop startup and having to take the operational dysfunction
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and turn it into something that made more sense to investors with a view to then bringing
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in investors.
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And I know Sean has a finance background, so that sort of somebody like her would then
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come in and take a look at the brand.
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And it was obviously the biggest baddest yoga brand in the world.
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You have yoga.
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You're most famous for the Vikramyoga sexual harassment case.
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You were counsel for Vikramyoga and ultimately ended up suing your employer and you were
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the only one who actually wanted.
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Yes, that is correct.
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I was the only person to have ever taken a matter to and through trial against the company
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and obtain a unanimous jury verdict.
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There were other matters that did settle prior to ever getting in front of a judge or a court
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House.
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How old are you when you started being counsel for Vikramyoga?
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Probably like late, late that is.
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So you were probably in the prime of your law career at that point in time getting into
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this startup environment to that obviously grew into entirely huge franchise.
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How was it that you balanced professional ambition with your ethics and your values?
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You ultimately decided to stand out for yourself and several other women and to file a suit
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against Vikramyoga.
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What was that journey of knowing that in a lot of spaces, people would interpret that
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as career suicide?
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Yes, and it's never an easy decision yet to lawyer up.
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And to take on your former boss, I'm not going to minimize that and I'm actually really
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proud of the whole journey at Vikram.
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Everything that happened, obviously the exit was not as I intended and if I can deal
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with that first, as I got more and more control over the business, we came to the realization
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that the founder was not going to change his behavior.
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There were certain behaviors that had apparently been the norm in LA, in Hollywood, in Beverly
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Hills and there wasn't going to be any modification.
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And the ethos was very much if you don't like it then, who told you to come.
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And that's generally the theme across a lot of these founders, started companies, but
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given that we were in the yoga and the spirituality and the wellness sector, there was additional
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responsibility to ensure that the business was reflecting the tenets of yoga.
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That's where the moral, the dilemma, the ethical dilemma, of course, as lawyers, as attorneys,
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whether you're in-house or outside, your first duty is always to the client, to the company.
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You've got to balance that against red flags that come up and your first duty is to guide
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and to warn and to counsel.
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And you go through that process, but there came a time when I formed a view that having
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this gentleman at the helm of the yoga business was simply not tenable.
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And so that caused, obviously, friction and chaos and dreadlessness.
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And what was that that ultimately got in there?
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Because technically you were hired to be protecting the company.
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Where was that sort of ethical shift in you, that moral compass?
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Was there a certain event or a catalyst that finally got you there?
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I believe you've always got your ethical parameters.
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And the red flags were apparent pretty early on, but they were more in terms of the mismanagement,
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the financial, the co-mingling of assets.
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So started off as being sort of in the financial compliance realm and also in relation to
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just how the business was being run.
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Eventually, matters came to light when a yoga company trainee filed a lawsuit, landed on my desk.
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And this was actually not a sexual harassment, not a rape.
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It was a racial discrimination lawsuit filed by a trainee, a yoga student who had come to study
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with their guru and they were expelled and kicked out.
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Now, Adonip, your viewers or yourselves have seen, there's been a Netflix documentary
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which goes into the detail, because it's not like there was one tipping point.
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There were lots of different episodes and there was just a lot going on.
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But this one lawsuit in particular, I always saw it as a bit of a trojan horse
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because it came with a number of witnesses who were speaking out anonymously at first
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because they were not willing to know a scare to use their name.
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But then there was like being shown on practices that were occurring at these big training camps
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that were obviously not happening in the office.
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So I then took myself down to the training to see exactly how it was being conducted.
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That led to an initial confrontation where the guru position was basically that the lawyers
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could have the franchise and could deal with getting the franchise in shape.
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But we were to stay away from the training.
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But I was obviously not possible because the training was the cash cow for the business
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generated the majority of the revenue and then you can't open a studio without going
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through the training and getting certified and then getting funded.
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So it was all interrelated.
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So it wasn't as if we could just turn a blind eye to one part of the business
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that simply wasn't going to happen.
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And you know, from a compliance in a regulatory perspective,
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there were issues that had to, before you could deal with issues,
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you've got to bring them up and that takes a phenomenal amount of courage.
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And you've got to be able to time it right because these are people who are exceedingly wealthy.
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They've never really had anyone question the way they operate.
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And to be fair to them, they've also never had anyone in house all the time.
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They did have one sort of outside civil lawyer and one outside criminal lawyer
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who were there pretty often and who saw some of the same things that I saw.
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But then when you've got not just one, but two, three, four people who legally trained
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all sort of say, hang on a minute, this is something that needs to be addressed.
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Again, then who is going to do the addressing?
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Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, and just to catch our viewers up to this,
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the some of the behavior that was conducted that's been documented
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has been him asking people to come in for meetings,
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while he's getting massages to meet him late night in his hotel room for meetings,
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for work, et cetera.
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He's in, you know, there's been quotes or documentation about him making comments
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while the claims against him were coming up around how his yoga studio is completely filled
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and made a crude comment around like, oh, look how many people are here.
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I should rate more women.
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I mean, this is a very, very hostile, a god complex type of personality
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that you were dealing with.
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Can you share with us what is the strategies from the other side that aren't deployed
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against people who file sexual harassment claims against their employers?
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My case was essentially one of retaliation.
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I personally was exited or disconnected to use their word
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because I looked into certain matters of a sexual nature.
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In addition to all of the other investigations that we were having to run internally,
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often had the behest of power insurers.
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So that is where the separation came.
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We were very careful, my team and I, to not litigate in the media.
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And I think the real story began the day we came out of court with the verdict,
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with the massive, you know, multi-million dollar award, not a settlement, a jury award.
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And out of the corner of your eye, you can see because it was captured on video
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by one of the producers from one of the local news affiliates in Los Angeles.
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You can actually see the defendant running away from the courthouse being been described
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by one of my attorneys in previous media as this sort of like hot stepping it away from the courthouse.
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So it was quite satisfying.
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It was a vindication.
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It was quite satisfying to see him on the run for once
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because we were aware of how he had tormented, particularly the younger,
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yoga officials who come studying with him.
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And then obviously turned his guns on me on a personal level
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because in addition to I had 30 or five, 36 different forces of action,
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there was a pretty significant claim in relation to sexual harassment of my own person.
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Because as you've mentioned, there was a propensity to hold meetings in hotel rooms
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because a lot of our business was conducted in hotels.
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And he tended to live in presidential suite of a hotel.
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And one day we were preparing him for a meeting,
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a deposition actually in one of the cases.
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And speakerphone wasn't working, so he wanted to go into the bedroom
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and crawl into bed and beckons for me to join him in his bed.
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At this time, the none of the civil rape cases had been filed.
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There had been rumors and there was some evidence of sexually improper behavior.
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But you had never seen an obviously anything like that of close until it happened to you.
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To me, yeah.
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And then while I think by at that moment or shortly thereafter,
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of course, I reported it to outside general counsel, I had already started seeing a pattern
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because you've got to see the pattern and then you succumb to that realization
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that your boss might be a predator, a sexual predator.
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Did they believe you when you went to your hotel now?
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Of course they did.
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Yeah, not only did they believe me,
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they one of them actually got in his car and drove down to headquarters
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and confronted the man about it.
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And yeah, and we had it out and then we had a lot of attrition around along the way
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with lawyers leaving and then us having to bring them back
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because they had expertise in certain areas of the Lord.
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And we had a lot of litigation going on.
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We had the franchise ramping up.
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So yeah, there was no question of my credibility.
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In fact, and some of those attorneys did come and testify in court.
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Thought you were bad.
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Four companies, yeah.
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It really just shows how invincible he thought he was
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where he could even do something like that to one of his attorneys in house.
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Right, it's different when it's maybe a younger person or a trainee
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or outside of the circle of people who are supposed to be your advisors.
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But when you're that confident to be able to make a move like that to someone
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at your stature in the company, it really does demonstrate
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that there were no boundaries or care for his behavior.
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Absolutely consider himself to be above the law.
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As we have seen, just even after the verdict, he was defiant
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and had no intention of complying with any of the court orders
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and the culmination of that was we eventually had to obtain a bent warrant
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from the judge because he wouldn't show up to hearings
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and he wouldn't comply.
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He wouldn't turn over assets and so on and so forth.
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So at the moment when this happens and you come to the actual decision
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of like, I'm going to do this.
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I'm going to have to sue my employer and go down this road.
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I'm curious, your experience litigator at this point
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but did things play out kind of as you expected
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or you thought you knew what you were getting into
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and it played out very differently?
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I haven't really thought about it in that way
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because as you know, a litigation is a marathon.
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It's not a sprint.
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This particular person had to be stopped before they caused more harm
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to especially young, impressionable trainees
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who were coming to study yoga.
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And I hate to say this but a lot of evidence came out
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in relation to my own colleagues, people at work who he had molested
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and caused great difficulties to in their careers
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and just in terms of control, there is one particular couple
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who got married and then he told them they had to separate
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because he didn't like the fact that they were from different races.
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So here he was controlling his races, his sexist, his misogynistic,
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his anti-Semitic and he thinks it's funny and he's defiant
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and he gets away with it and he's continued to get away with it
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because all we've done is take a tiger
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and put them in a small occasion and he ran, he's fled.
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But at least the women of Los Angeles are safer.
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But the one thing that I think your listeners might be interested
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to learn is that you don't have to file the case yourself.
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You can elect to allow the authorities,
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the government to file the complaint for you.
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Your workplace toxic hostile work environment case,
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they will investigate and file it.
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We just made a decision strategically and for various reasons
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that we wanted to run the litigation ourselves.
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The problematic area was there were some witnesses and attorneys
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who had worked for the company who were cautioning me not to do it
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that he was such a dangerous man that I would live to regret it.
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Some of the earlier rats, the death threats that have been well publicized
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were being relayed to me via attorneys, former attorneys,
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so they'd get phone calls.
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So in terms of, you know, the question that was put to me earlier
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about things they were doing or saying these,
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we were not in the days of prolific social media
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anyway, not that happened after the trial.
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It was more in terms of the threats that were coming,
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the having to go to the police, having to report death threats of kidnapped
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against what was a very small child at the time.
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These are all classified as sort of being acts of obstruction
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interference with witnesses trying to stop somebody from filing a lawsuit.
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And that is where things got serious very quickly.
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When this case was happening, this was pre-MeToo movement.
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It's very scary to get death threats.
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You are a mother.
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You were a single mom of a very young daughter at the time.
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And so how did you mentally navigate that?
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I was adamant that I wasn't going to go quietly into the night.
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I felt it was my duty to bring to light
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all of the malfeasance that was going on in the company
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because I thought it was also giving yoga such a bad name.
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You know, having all of this happen
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and the dangers that people were just not aware of in terms of
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the dangers to their persons, the risk of being preyed upon
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but also the risk of, you know, losing all your money
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not getting refunds if you didn't like it.
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And all the health and safety risks
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because not all of the studios were run in a manner
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that was compliant with the rules.
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Your viewers may have brought a story a few years ago
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where a woman actually died at one of these yoga training camps
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that was held in Hacker Polko.
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That's something we've been warning about for a long time.
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I personally love yoga.
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I practice it.
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I think the big room style is possibly the best sequence
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that there is and he was, this is where the snake oil was good.
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The actual yoga was good, but the charlatan who was a day
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who was promoting it, not good and not self-cord.
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I think I've described him as being like the pipe,
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the pipe of yoga, his followers.
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They will follow him to the ends of the earth.
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It's very cultish.
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Yes, it did operate like a cult,
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but it had elements of a cult, but it was more than that.
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It was sort of just blind devotion to a human being
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who is flawed.
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You know, he says these highly inappropriate things
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and does these highly inappropriate things
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often to your own friends and loved ones.
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Hi.
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And so there is an element of cowardice there
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where there is a reluctance to speak out.
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This is specific to yoga, but working in entertainment.
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There's a very real Hollywood correlation here.
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It may not be a cult, but it may be like a cult of personality
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where you have big personalities or very wealthy people.
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A lot of people around them are like flying monkeys
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or they're on the payroll or they're entrenched in a way
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around the ecosystem of a talent or a personality.
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And it can be very, very daunting
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to think about taking those people on.
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And it's widely just socially discouraged
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as like a thing that will completely end your life
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and for certain your career.
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So I'm curious for you two things
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just thinking about like people watching us
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and what advice you might have for them around two things
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around one, you know, you know,
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non-disclosures or non-despairage agreements,
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which are very, very pervasive now and common
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even in quote unquote progressive workplaces.
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So I'm curious what your thoughts are about that.
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And also like what advice would you have for someone
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who was thinking about pursuing having to like
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sue their employer for sexual harassment?
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What are the kind of things that they should consider
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in light of how challenging it is?
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Not my case to give out legal advice to any of your listeners,
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but there are resources out there
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again depending on what jurisdiction they're in.
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Generally speaking, I would say avoid the courtroom
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if at all possible.
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So one advantage of having an employer
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who has put forward as part of your contractual package
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non-disclosure, there are confidentiality clauses
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are essential in many, many industries
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and it's just a negotiate point
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and it's also, you know, there is freedom
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of contract people can sign what they want to sign
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and not sign what they, what they feel uncomfortable with.
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But at the end of the day, most normal employers
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have insurance and they make payments into policies
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and you're able to claim your benefits and so on.
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My situation, this was not a normal employer.
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This was a highly hostile toxic work environment
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where there was zero compliance with any rules and norms.
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And in terms of the medium, even if there was a trend
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towards sort of making the allegation, going public
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and then the perpetrators were being canceled.
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But I don't know if there was any remedy
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that was flowing from that.
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My understanding is the complainants
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were still losing their jobs.
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So I don't know how effective the remedial,
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the compensatory aspect of that was
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I would encourage women who find themselves in difficult
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workplace related situations to debt advice,
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to obviously go to the police if there has been any assault
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anything that rises to the level of a crime.
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I would suggest that we start using the resources
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that are available and there are actual government departments
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whose job it is to help people.
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I did actually go onto the DOJ website
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because they have a form where you can go in
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and put in your complaint and things and they have one.
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A journey you've gone through,
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would you do it all again
363
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or would you tell your young yourself?
364
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:29.360
Yeah, absolutely, yes.
365
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I don't have any regret about what we did.
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Obviously, procedurally we did everything
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that we could possibly do.
368
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I do wish we'd had more support from the authorities
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early on, right when the Vatican came in
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when there was a very small window of time
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to arrest this gentleman, yeah,
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because once they fled the jurisdiction
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and it was nothing much you could do.
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The accountability, obviously there's assets
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and there are co-conspirators and there's family members
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and employees who can be held to account
377
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but when the main perpetrator
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and leaving so many victims in his wake
379
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and then going on to continue that type of behavior
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defiant in other countries
381
00:26:16.760 --> 00:26:19.200
it would have been helpful at the time
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to have had more operation
383
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and the reviewers have seen
384
00:26:23.600 --> 00:26:26.880
the Netflix documentary it's called Yogi Guru Predator
385
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.320
where you do actually show the entire litigation process
386
00:26:30.320 --> 00:26:32.800
almost from the beginning with depositions,
387
00:26:32.800 --> 00:26:36.520
how it unfolded, so you're able to see
388
00:26:36.560 --> 00:26:41.400
sort of the anatomy, the journey of what it takes
389
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:46.400
to bring this type of matters to trial, it's not easy.
390
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:49.280
I was just lucky enough to come out of it and skate
391
00:26:49.280 --> 00:26:52.040
but I will say that the threat never goes away,
392
00:26:52.040 --> 00:26:53.080
it's not like that.
393
00:26:53.080 --> 00:26:53.880
Sure.
394
00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:54.840
The journey is ended.
395
00:26:54.840 --> 00:26:56.880
In fact, the case hasn't has an end.
396
00:26:56.880 --> 00:26:58.240
Because he's still alluding,
397
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:00.440
paying, he's still not complying.
398
00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:03.280
Well, he started doing it in different countries, correct?
399
00:27:03.280 --> 00:27:06.080
He started up studios in different countries
400
00:27:06.080 --> 00:27:09.160
and just continues to do it outside of the United States.
401
00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:12.200
Yeah, he's always, they've always had studios in other countries,
402
00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:14.200
they've started doing that big training
403
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:17.160
where hundreds of people fly in from all over the world
404
00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:19.080
and they collect the fees
405
00:27:19.080 --> 00:27:20.680
and it can be millions of dollars
406
00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:23.000
and it's twice a year, it's nine weeks,
407
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:25.720
they've been doing what we call those training camps
408
00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:27.320
the hot yoga teacher training.
409
00:27:27.320 --> 00:27:28.360
They have been doing those,
410
00:27:28.360 --> 00:27:32.840
that has always been the biggest money spinner for them.
411
00:27:32.840 --> 00:27:34.600
Yeah, they've continued that,
412
00:27:34.600 --> 00:27:36.080
but outside of the US,
413
00:27:36.080 --> 00:27:39.360
because we do have the bench warrant out.
414
00:27:39.360 --> 00:27:40.200
I'm saying.
415
00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:41.440
How does that feeling like for you?
416
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:43.400
You won your verdict in 2016,
417
00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:45.760
but you haven't been able to recover all the assets
418
00:27:45.760 --> 00:27:48.400
because you fled, is that right?
419
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:52.120
Yes, I mean, it's still about $10 million.
420
00:27:52.120 --> 00:27:54.720
We were able to sell some assets,
421
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:58.960
including the IP and some of the properties and the cause
422
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:00.800
and recover some cash,
423
00:28:00.840 --> 00:28:03.920
but the majority of it went to paying the cost
424
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:06.520
of the trial, legal fees.
425
00:28:06.520 --> 00:28:08.480
You've got to pay the jury fee,
426
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:09.840
you've got to pay for the sheriff
427
00:28:09.840 --> 00:28:12.040
when they come and seize an asset.
428
00:28:12.040 --> 00:28:14.160
Do you feel like you want?
429
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:16.440
He's still out there.
430
00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:21.440
There hasn't been a 360 amount of accountability for him.
431
00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:27.880
And yet your career definitely got stifled as a result.
432
00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:30.400
Yeah, I mean, obviously when we won,
433
00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:32.880
we did win and we won.
434
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:37.080
I hope that my victory encourages women,
435
00:28:37.080 --> 00:28:41.000
people in general, to stand up when they see wrongdoing
436
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:42.040
and to not give up.
437
00:28:42.040 --> 00:28:45.320
So the victory, yeah, and as I've said,
438
00:28:45.320 --> 00:28:49.000
and we never expected that recovery and collection
439
00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:52.080
would be easy, but at the same time,
440
00:28:52.080 --> 00:28:55.360
I didn't think it would be this complicated at all.
441
00:28:55.360 --> 00:28:58.400
Coming up to 10 years would still be here,
442
00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:01.800
sitting and talking about the big verdicts,
443
00:29:01.800 --> 00:29:04.160
which is not what I intended to do.
444
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:09.160
I've actually tried to distance myself from it a little bit
445
00:29:09.160 --> 00:29:11.240
and not dwell on it so much,
446
00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:14.200
not think about it in terms of winning and losing,
447
00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:17.920
but think about it in terms of that was my duty at the time
448
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:19.880
to bring the conduct to life.
449
00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:22.240
So I succeeded in doing that.
450
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:26.840
It was a bonus to be awarded a life-changing ceremony.
451
00:29:27.120 --> 00:29:32.720
And then, I mean, this is where faith and belief in the universe
452
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:36.080
has planned for me is my story is not over.
453
00:29:36.080 --> 00:29:39.480
I am working on my book,
454
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:42.600
and I'm hoping that I'll be able to tell the story
455
00:29:42.600 --> 00:29:47.680
in more detail in terms of the granular decision-making
456
00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:51.400
this strategy, but also the personal,
457
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:52.840
the emotional side of it.
458
00:29:52.840 --> 00:29:56.080
Another thing I think your listeners might want to be made
459
00:29:56.080 --> 00:29:58.880
aware of, you don't just file your lawsuit and end up,
460
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:02.240
it's not TV, it's not like TV court where you end up
461
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:06.640
in court a few weeks or months later, it takes years to...
462
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:08.480
I think it took two and a half years,
463
00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:11.520
and they went through eight or nine sets of attorneys,
464
00:30:11.520 --> 00:30:15.640
because one of the defense tactics is to you then fire.
465
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:18.360
Change your attorneys so they can set everything
466
00:30:18.360 --> 00:30:20.160
right out the clock.
467
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:22.960
Absolutely, yeah, and demoralize the idea.
468
00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:27.640
Exemoralize you, because you are considered to be smaller
469
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:29.600
and insignificant.
470
00:30:29.600 --> 00:30:30.800
Ma'am.
471
00:30:30.800 --> 00:30:32.200
I want to go back to...
472
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:34.600
I mean, well, first of all, I'm say Mickey,
473
00:30:34.600 --> 00:30:37.520
I think that you, winning your verdict,
474
00:30:37.520 --> 00:30:39.880
potentially saved a lot of young women
475
00:30:39.880 --> 00:30:43.320
from becoming victims of him.
476
00:30:43.320 --> 00:30:47.760
Thank you for making Los Angeles a little bit safer,
477
00:30:47.760 --> 00:30:49.400
particularly in health and wellness.
478
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.920
I wanted to go back to your daughter.
479
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:54.720
You were a single mom at the time.
480
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:56.160
Your daughter was...
481
00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:58.360
Six, when I joined the company.
482
00:30:58.360 --> 00:30:59.360
Yeah, very little.
483
00:30:59.360 --> 00:31:02.120
How did you manage when she became old enough
484
00:31:02.120 --> 00:31:04.960
or when she was exposed to what is going on?
485
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:08.640
How did you communicate to her what was happening
486
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:10.920
and educate her, because these are not conversations
487
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:12.640
you have with a young child typically,
488
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:15.960
but I'm sure at some point she became aware.
489
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:19.120
Yeah, I mean, we try to seize the narrative very early on
490
00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:21.800
in terms of our media strategy
491
00:31:21.800 --> 00:31:23.680
and it was made very clear to the defendants
492
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:26.440
that we were not going to take any more,
493
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:28.320
any more nonsense from them
494
00:31:28.320 --> 00:31:30.640
and we were going to meet fire with fire.
495
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:32.280
And I think taking that stance,
496
00:31:32.280 --> 00:31:34.280
having Carla Minard in particular
497
00:31:34.280 --> 00:31:36.840
and, more quickly as my attorneys,
498
00:31:36.840 --> 00:31:40.920
gave both me and my daughter a level of protection from
499
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:41.760
the get-go.
500
00:31:41.760 --> 00:31:43.480
We knew that we were safe with them.
501
00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:47.000
We also had the added benefit of having
502
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:50.160
started off as a sergeant.
503
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:51.360
It's now a lieutenant,
504
00:31:51.360 --> 00:31:54.040
so we did have people looking out for us
505
00:31:54.040 --> 00:31:55.640
and we had the authorities in the school.
506
00:31:55.640 --> 00:31:57.840
So it wasn't like we were completely isolated,
507
00:31:57.840 --> 00:31:59.840
but at night, you know, when the lawyers go home
508
00:31:59.840 --> 00:32:02.200
and you obviously don't get round the clock protection
509
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:03.200
or anything.
510
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:04.880
So at night, it was difficult.
511
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:08.200
We had to take precautions and just be careful
512
00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:11.080
about who we were letting into our space
513
00:32:11.080 --> 00:32:12.880
being careful with social media.
514
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:15.800
Wasn't much of a problem until middle school,
515
00:32:15.800 --> 00:32:17.000
not a problem, per se,
516
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:19.080
because I've always been really honest with my daughter
517
00:32:19.080 --> 00:32:23.120
and as she grew older, I would take her to,
518
00:32:23.120 --> 00:32:27.080
I remember there was a, I guess one of the earlier podcasts
519
00:32:27.080 --> 00:32:28.720
at Pop Sugar, which is a,
520
00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:30.920
which is very trendy with young women.
521
00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:32.880
So I took her to their studio
522
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:37.440
and she was able to see the way the show was put together
523
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:38.360
and the hair and makeup
524
00:32:38.360 --> 00:32:40.080
and I wanted to make it interesting for her
525
00:32:40.080 --> 00:32:44.280
and to involve her in whatever I was having to go through,
526
00:32:44.280 --> 00:32:47.240
you know, as you might think of her as my personal,
527
00:32:47.240 --> 00:32:49.160
my little stylist almost,
528
00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:54.160
involving her in the production of their case
529
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:56.880
because there were lots of different components
530
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:59.760
that went into it in the story
531
00:32:59.760 --> 00:33:04.320
and also preparing her for when something was going to come out
532
00:33:04.320 --> 00:33:07.640
or when there was going to be a time
533
00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:11.040
when I was going to have to be tied up a lot more,
534
00:33:11.040 --> 00:33:12.200
you know, particularly the trial,
535
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:16.240
it was a full month in court every single day.
536
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:17.920
I think we had a couple of Fridays,
537
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:21.440
but I always believe in having like honest conversations
538
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:23.520
with children age appropriate.
539
00:33:23.520 --> 00:33:26.680
Let's talk about aftermath,
540
00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:29.840
reinvention, what happens to your career?
541
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:32.160
That is a very good question.
542
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:37.160
When you find out, let me know on a postcard,
543
00:33:37.600 --> 00:33:41.560
but yeah, I mean, the case became my full-time job then
544
00:33:41.560 --> 00:33:45.520
because of enforcement and having to deal with the authorities
545
00:33:45.520 --> 00:33:48.160
and manage the litigation
546
00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:49.840
and because I'm a lawyer,
547
00:33:49.840 --> 00:33:51.680
yeah, I was treated like a team member
548
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:55.720
and I was at the table across the collection of the verdict
549
00:33:55.720 --> 00:33:57.800
and particularly when the Department of Justice
550
00:33:57.800 --> 00:33:59.200
appointed a trustee,
551
00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:01.920
I went and got a receiver appointed
552
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:04.240
prior over all the properties in the IP
553
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:06.560
and then the defendant went and filed
554
00:34:06.560 --> 00:34:07.400
bankruptcy.
555
00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:12.720
That is a full-time job managing post-judgment litigation.
556
00:34:12.720 --> 00:34:13.760
There was an appeal.
557
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:15.120
We went to the Court of Appeal,
558
00:34:15.120 --> 00:34:19.400
so we won on the fugitive disentitlement doctrine.
559
00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:23.440
It became a full-time or consuming job
560
00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:27.440
while at the same time trying to harness my creative side
561
00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:32.120
and having the opportunity to work on the Netflix documentary
562
00:34:32.120 --> 00:34:35.760
with Heaver Orner and Pulse Films.
563
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:36.920
That was pretty cool,
564
00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:38.080
so there were some cool moments
565
00:34:38.080 --> 00:34:39.720
and then you're working on my book,
566
00:34:39.720 --> 00:34:41.880
but also the realization that,
567
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:44.280
hey, I've got to get a job
568
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:47.880
and then the people who would call me back in five minutes
569
00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:52.040
when I was head of legal and international
570
00:34:52.040 --> 00:34:55.400
at the yoga company and running all these studios,
571
00:34:56.560 --> 00:35:00.480
they'd call me back maybe five days later, maybe never.
572
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:05.120
And so that part we're trying to go back into big law,
573
00:35:05.120 --> 00:35:09.920
I realized that once you have taken on your employer,
574
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:11.680
you become a risk.
575
00:35:11.680 --> 00:35:15.040
I don't think anyone's insurers are gonna allow you
576
00:35:15.040 --> 00:35:16.240
or certainly not partners.
577
00:35:16.240 --> 00:35:19.080
And if it is permissible,
578
00:35:19.080 --> 00:35:20.400
it would have to be somebody who's willing
579
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:22.240
to stick their neck out for me.
580
00:35:22.240 --> 00:35:25.440
And so that became problematic.
581
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:28.600
When my daughter got admission at University in the East Coast,
582
00:35:28.600 --> 00:35:32.120
I decided to start spending more time here
583
00:35:32.120 --> 00:35:34.760
and I now work for a placement firm
584
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:36.520
and I pick up gigs that go along.
585
00:35:36.520 --> 00:35:41.240
I've just been really blessed to have landed at Georgetown Law.
586
00:35:41.240 --> 00:35:43.560
It's like beyond my wildest dreams
587
00:35:43.560 --> 00:35:46.640
because when I was expecting my baby way back,
588
00:35:46.640 --> 00:35:48.280
I remember I used to walk around the campus
589
00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:50.240
and I was thought back then
590
00:35:50.240 --> 00:35:53.880
or doing an LLM or maybe teaching as an adjunct.
591
00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:55.280
I don't do any of that now.
592
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:57.000
I just work behind the scenes
593
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:01.600
and I'm so thankful to all my colleagues here
594
00:36:01.600 --> 00:36:02.440
for supporting me.
595
00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:03.640
They do not know my story.
596
00:36:03.640 --> 00:36:05.680
That's the interesting thing, baby.
597
00:36:05.680 --> 00:36:08.920
I remember when I went to ask my boss if,
598
00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:12.080
hey, I could do it and did we have a podcast
599
00:36:12.080 --> 00:36:15.240
you're now building the head of IT, the lady was there.
600
00:36:15.240 --> 00:36:16.960
And she's like, yes, we do.
601
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:20.280
And when she saw your email,
602
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:25.280
she said that she had watched hairtails.
603
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:26.280
Oh, that's right.
604
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:29.000
It is a wonderful show that you put together.
605
00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:30.000
Yeah.
606
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:31.560
You guys are really accomplished
607
00:36:31.560 --> 00:36:36.560
and I take encouragement from having had the opportunity
608
00:36:36.680 --> 00:36:37.600
to talk to you,
609
00:36:37.600 --> 00:36:42.160
but my career in so far is returning to practice
610
00:36:42.160 --> 00:36:44.560
or going back in house.
611
00:36:44.560 --> 00:36:47.240
That's not manifested yet.
612
00:36:47.240 --> 00:36:50.440
Never say never, but I do want to try
613
00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.920
and get some closure here, I think,
614
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:54.680
to answer your question.
615
00:36:54.680 --> 00:36:57.520
And how does one, how do you get accountability?
616
00:36:57.520 --> 00:36:58.560
Just really briefly
617
00:36:58.560 --> 00:37:01.880
because something you mentioned in our pre-new view
618
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:03.920
that stood out to Sean and I,
619
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:08.080
where you talked about how they defend sexual harassment cases
620
00:37:08.080 --> 00:37:11.600
and how they try to sort of frame victims.
621
00:37:11.600 --> 00:37:12.880
Like, I think you think we're like that.
622
00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:14.080
Go NSD?
623
00:37:14.080 --> 00:37:14.920
Yes.
624
00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:16.760
It's a horrible thing to say,
625
00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:20.880
but it's basically not slut goldiga.
626
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:25.720
That is the way defense lawyers then sort of craft
627
00:37:25.720 --> 00:37:28.920
of their defense is this person like a complete nut job.
628
00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:32.640
Are they, you know, where they are asking for it?
629
00:37:32.640 --> 00:37:33.480
I did not.
630
00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:34.720
And are they a goldiga?
631
00:37:34.720 --> 00:37:37.640
They're just coming after this person.
632
00:37:37.640 --> 00:37:42.640
I think I went from high profile to like low profile
633
00:37:42.640 --> 00:37:43.880
to like no profile.
634
00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:48.120
And what was intended to be like a shaming,
635
00:37:48.120 --> 00:37:50.200
you know, a shaming episode for me,
636
00:37:50.200 --> 00:37:54.880
a career killing episode has given me
637
00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:58.560
the opportunity to find my voice,
638
00:37:58.560 --> 00:38:01.640
but yeah, we've got to be careful to not be complicit
639
00:38:01.640 --> 00:38:03.520
in our own abuse.
640
00:38:03.520 --> 00:38:07.160
I think that's where we've got to step into our own power
641
00:38:07.160 --> 00:38:10.720
and say enough, no more, we're not taking this
642
00:38:10.720 --> 00:38:12.240
and we're calling it out.
643
00:38:12.240 --> 00:38:14.920
And if we're going to be labeled,
644
00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:18.080
it's not slut goldiga, then bring it on, you know?
645
00:38:18.080 --> 00:38:21.760
It's just, bring it, bring it, bring it.
646
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:22.760
Yeah.
647
00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:26.320
Well, Mickey, thank you so much for coming
648
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:28.280
to share your story and your,
649
00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:30.720
it's such a unique thing to have to go through
650
00:38:30.720 --> 00:38:32.040
what you went through.
651
00:38:32.040 --> 00:38:34.960
It's not an easy thing or a small thing.
652
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:37.400
And it's something that people have either approached
653
00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:38.760
or contemplated or thought about.
654
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:41.240
So thank you for being so transparent about your journey
655
00:38:41.240 --> 00:38:43.520
for sharing what it really looked like.
656
00:38:43.520 --> 00:38:45.920
We are grateful that you took that stand
657
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:48.000
and did what needed to be done
658
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:51.680
and very work at a settle and saw it all the way through.
659
00:38:51.680 --> 00:38:56.680
But we are very hyper aware of the sort of your personal,
660
00:38:56.840 --> 00:39:00.400
emotional and mental tax that comes along with it.
661
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:01.240
Well, thank you for that.
662
00:39:01.240 --> 00:39:02.400
And thank you for having me on.
663
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:05.160
And hopefully we laid out a masterclass,
664
00:39:05.160 --> 00:39:07.280
particularly in the Netflix documentary
665
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:11.040
and what these cases actually look like.
666
00:39:11.040 --> 00:39:13.160
We really appreciate you telling your story.
667
00:39:13.160 --> 00:39:14.000
I do as you're on it.
668
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:15.320
Thank you both very much.
1
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.000
Mickey Bowden was in-house counsel for Bikram Yoga, tasked with turning the wildly popular
2
00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:10.000
hot yoga practice into a world-class franchise.
3
00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:15.920
Instead, she uncovered Bikram's pattern of sexual harassment and assault, even becoming
4
00:00:15.920 --> 00:00:17.920
the target herself.
5
00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:20.720
So she did the unthinkable.
6
00:00:20.720 --> 00:00:26.720
Sued her own employer, took its trial, and bravely won a unanimous verdict from millions,
7
00:00:26.720 --> 00:00:29.800
but it cost her everything in the process.
8
00:00:29.800 --> 00:00:31.800
This is the Exit Interview.
9
00:00:45.800 --> 00:00:48.440
Hello everyone, welcome to the Exit Interview.
10
00:00:48.440 --> 00:00:52.680
If you liked this episode, please like, subscribe, and comment below, and we will continue
11
00:00:52.680 --> 00:00:55.440
to curate guests like this for you to enjoy.
12
00:00:55.440 --> 00:00:56.440
Thank you.
13
00:00:56.440 --> 00:00:59.280
Hi everyone, and welcome to the Exit Interview.
14
00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:02.560
We're really excited to bring you this episode today.
15
00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:09.360
Today we are lucky enough to have a great conversation with Mickey Bowden, lawyer, mom,
16
00:01:09.360 --> 00:01:12.840
and someone who's got a really interesting story we want to share with you today.
17
00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:15.560
So Mickey, welcome to the Exit Interview.
18
00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:21.520
Hello to your audience, great to be on your show, and congratulations to both of you for
19
00:01:21.520 --> 00:01:26.720
this wonderful contribution, I think, to the conversation.
20
00:01:26.720 --> 00:01:28.200
Thank you so much.
21
00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:33.680
We'd love to dive into your origin story as an attorney.
22
00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:37.760
How did you come and get your start in that and what was some of the early days of your
23
00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:40.440
sort of practicing life as an attorney?
24
00:01:40.440 --> 00:01:45.840
So I qualified as a lawyer when I was around 22 years old.
25
00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:51.360
The reason for that is we go to law school a lot earlier than you do in America.
26
00:01:51.360 --> 00:01:57.640
I've been, you know, a lawyer ever since at this point in time, obviously, I am not practicing.
27
00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:03.040
I just want to say, although I am coming to you from Georgetown Law, I am appearing on
28
00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:05.520
your show in my personal capacity.
29
00:02:05.520 --> 00:02:09.960
And I want to thank my colleagues and my friends here for facilitating the use of the studio
30
00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:12.000
because I am on the East Coast.
31
00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:15.920
And yes, I went into international law pretty early on.
32
00:02:15.920 --> 00:02:24.600
I joined a big law firm in London and specialised in cross-border international, anything
33
00:02:24.600 --> 00:02:26.880
with an international dimension really.
34
00:02:26.880 --> 00:02:33.640
I also did a fair bit of banking and compliance related work, ended up being headhunted to
35
00:02:33.640 --> 00:02:38.520
come and work for the yoga business in Los Angeles.
36
00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:43.480
And at the same time, the CEO of the company got exited.
37
00:02:43.480 --> 00:02:50.960
So I took on responsibilities of the CEO and eventually got promoted to vice president
38
00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:53.640
of compliance for the franchise.
39
00:02:53.640 --> 00:02:59.120
I had a lot of hats on when I was out in LA running the yoga business.
40
00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:05.360
I basically just to catch you up to what that scenario was.
41
00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:10.920
I took them from being sort of a Mormon pop type operation to becoming a world-class franchise
42
00:03:10.920 --> 00:03:13.320
in less than three years.
43
00:03:13.320 --> 00:03:19.680
And it was an interesting situation because they already had hundreds of yoga studios all
44
00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:26.720
over the world in obviously in America, but also internationally in 38 different countries.
45
00:03:26.720 --> 00:03:31.400
But they hadn't been properly licensed and the IP hadn't been dealt with properly.
46
00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:40.240
It was kind of like a Mormon pop startup and having to take the operational dysfunction
47
00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:46.400
and turn it into something that made more sense to investors with a view to then bringing
48
00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:47.400
in investors.
49
00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:51.680
And I know Sean has a finance background, so that sort of somebody like her would then
50
00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:54.200
come in and take a look at the brand.
51
00:03:54.200 --> 00:04:00.400
And it was obviously the biggest baddest yoga brand in the world.
52
00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:01.400
You have yoga.
53
00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:05.560
You're most famous for the Vikramyoga sexual harassment case.
54
00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:12.120
You were counsel for Vikramyoga and ultimately ended up suing your employer and you were
55
00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:13.560
the only one who actually wanted.
56
00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:14.560
Yes, that is correct.
57
00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:21.880
I was the only person to have ever taken a matter to and through trial against the company
58
00:04:21.880 --> 00:04:25.800
and obtain a unanimous jury verdict.
59
00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:32.680
There were other matters that did settle prior to ever getting in front of a judge or a court
60
00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:33.680
House.
61
00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:37.880
How old are you when you started being counsel for Vikramyoga?
62
00:04:37.880 --> 00:04:40.360
Probably like late, late that is.
63
00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:47.000
So you were probably in the prime of your law career at that point in time getting into
64
00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:52.680
this startup environment to that obviously grew into entirely huge franchise.
65
00:04:52.680 --> 00:05:00.480
How was it that you balanced professional ambition with your ethics and your values?
66
00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:06.600
You ultimately decided to stand out for yourself and several other women and to file a suit
67
00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:08.440
against Vikramyoga.
68
00:05:08.440 --> 00:05:14.560
What was that journey of knowing that in a lot of spaces, people would interpret that
69
00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:16.240
as career suicide?
70
00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:20.600
Yes, and it's never an easy decision yet to lawyer up.
71
00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:27.800
And to take on your former boss, I'm not going to minimize that and I'm actually really
72
00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:30.640
proud of the whole journey at Vikram.
73
00:05:30.640 --> 00:05:35.760
Everything that happened, obviously the exit was not as I intended and if I can deal
74
00:05:35.760 --> 00:05:42.360
with that first, as I got more and more control over the business, we came to the realization
75
00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:48.320
that the founder was not going to change his behavior.
76
00:05:48.320 --> 00:05:54.800
There were certain behaviors that had apparently been the norm in LA, in Hollywood, in Beverly
77
00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:59.320
Hills and there wasn't going to be any modification.
78
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And the ethos was very much if you don't like it then, who told you to come.
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And that's generally the theme across a lot of these founders, started companies, but
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given that we were in the yoga and the spirituality and the wellness sector, there was additional
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responsibility to ensure that the business was reflecting the tenets of yoga.
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That's where the moral, the dilemma, the ethical dilemma, of course, as lawyers, as attorneys,
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whether you're in-house or outside, your first duty is always to the client, to the company.
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You've got to balance that against red flags that come up and your first duty is to guide
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and to warn and to counsel.
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And you go through that process, but there came a time when I formed a view that having
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this gentleman at the helm of the yoga business was simply not tenable.
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And so that caused, obviously, friction and chaos and dreadlessness.
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And what was that that ultimately got in there?
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Because technically you were hired to be protecting the company.
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Where was that sort of ethical shift in you, that moral compass?
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Was there a certain event or a catalyst that finally got you there?
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I believe you've always got your ethical parameters.
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And the red flags were apparent pretty early on, but they were more in terms of the mismanagement,
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the financial, the co-mingling of assets.
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So started off as being sort of in the financial compliance realm and also in relation to
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just how the business was being run.
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Eventually, matters came to light when a yoga company trainee filed a lawsuit, landed on my desk.
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And this was actually not a sexual harassment, not a rape.
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It was a racial discrimination lawsuit filed by a trainee, a yoga student who had come to study
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with their guru and they were expelled and kicked out.
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Now, Adonip, your viewers or yourselves have seen, there's been a Netflix documentary
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which goes into the detail, because it's not like there was one tipping point.
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There were lots of different episodes and there was just a lot going on.
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But this one lawsuit in particular, I always saw it as a bit of a trojan horse
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because it came with a number of witnesses who were speaking out anonymously at first
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because they were not willing to know a scare to use their name.
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But then there was like being shown on practices that were occurring at these big training camps
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that were obviously not happening in the office.
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So I then took myself down to the training to see exactly how it was being conducted.
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That led to an initial confrontation where the guru position was basically that the lawyers
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could have the franchise and could deal with getting the franchise in shape.
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But we were to stay away from the training.
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But I was obviously not possible because the training was the cash cow for the business
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generated the majority of the revenue and then you can't open a studio without going
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through the training and getting certified and then getting funded.
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So it was all interrelated.
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So it wasn't as if we could just turn a blind eye to one part of the business
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that simply wasn't going to happen.
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And you know, from a compliance in a regulatory perspective,
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there were issues that had to, before you could deal with issues,
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you've got to bring them up and that takes a phenomenal amount of courage.
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And you've got to be able to time it right because these are people who are exceedingly wealthy.
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They've never really had anyone question the way they operate.
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And to be fair to them, they've also never had anyone in house all the time.
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They did have one sort of outside civil lawyer and one outside criminal lawyer
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who were there pretty often and who saw some of the same things that I saw.
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But then when you've got not just one, but two, three, four people who legally trained
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all sort of say, hang on a minute, this is something that needs to be addressed.
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Again, then who is going to do the addressing?
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Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, and just to catch our viewers up to this,
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the some of the behavior that was conducted that's been documented
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has been him asking people to come in for meetings,
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while he's getting massages to meet him late night in his hotel room for meetings,
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for work, et cetera.
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He's in, you know, there's been quotes or documentation about him making comments
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while the claims against him were coming up around how his yoga studio is completely filled
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and made a crude comment around like, oh, look how many people are here.
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I should rate more women.
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I mean, this is a very, very hostile, a god complex type of personality
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that you were dealing with.
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Can you share with us what is the strategies from the other side that aren't deployed
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against people who file sexual harassment claims against their employers?
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My case was essentially one of retaliation.
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I personally was exited or disconnected to use their word
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because I looked into certain matters of a sexual nature.
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In addition to all of the other investigations that we were having to run internally,
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often had the behest of power insurers.
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So that is where the separation came.
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We were very careful, my team and I, to not litigate in the media.
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And I think the real story began the day we came out of court with the verdict,
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with the massive, you know, multi-million dollar award, not a settlement, a jury award.
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And out of the corner of your eye, you can see because it was captured on video
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by one of the producers from one of the local news affiliates in Los Angeles.
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You can actually see the defendant running away from the courthouse being been described
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by one of my attorneys in previous media as this sort of like hot stepping it away from the courthouse.
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So it was quite satisfying.
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It was a vindication.
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It was quite satisfying to see him on the run for once
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because we were aware of how he had tormented, particularly the younger,
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yoga officials who come studying with him.
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And then obviously turned his guns on me on a personal level
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because in addition to I had 30 or five, 36 different forces of action,
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there was a pretty significant claim in relation to sexual harassment of my own person.
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Because as you've mentioned, there was a propensity to hold meetings in hotel rooms
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because a lot of our business was conducted in hotels.
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And he tended to live in presidential suite of a hotel.
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And one day we were preparing him for a meeting,
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a deposition actually in one of the cases.
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And speakerphone wasn't working, so he wanted to go into the bedroom
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and crawl into bed and beckons for me to join him in his bed.
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At this time, the none of the civil rape cases had been filed.
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There had been rumors and there was some evidence of sexually improper behavior.
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But you had never seen an obviously anything like that of close until it happened to you.
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To me, yeah.
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And then while I think by at that moment or shortly thereafter,
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of course, I reported it to outside general counsel, I had already started seeing a pattern
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because you've got to see the pattern and then you succumb to that realization
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that your boss might be a predator, a sexual predator.
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Did they believe you when you went to your hotel now?
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Of course they did.
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Yeah, not only did they believe me,
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they one of them actually got in his car and drove down to headquarters
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and confronted the man about it.
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And yeah, and we had it out and then we had a lot of attrition around along the way
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with lawyers leaving and then us having to bring them back
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because they had expertise in certain areas of the Lord.
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And we had a lot of litigation going on.
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We had the franchise ramping up.
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So yeah, there was no question of my credibility.
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In fact, and some of those attorneys did come and testify in court.
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Thought you were bad.
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Four companies, yeah.
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It really just shows how invincible he thought he was
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where he could even do something like that to one of his attorneys in house.
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Right, it's different when it's maybe a younger person or a trainee
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or outside of the circle of people who are supposed to be your advisors.
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But when you're that confident to be able to make a move like that to someone
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at your stature in the company, it really does demonstrate
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that there were no boundaries or care for his behavior.
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Absolutely consider himself to be above the law.
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As we have seen, just even after the verdict, he was defiant
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and had no intention of complying with any of the court orders
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and the culmination of that was we eventually had to obtain a bent warrant
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from the judge because he wouldn't show up to hearings
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and he wouldn't comply.
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He wouldn't turn over assets and so on and so forth.
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So at the moment when this happens and you come to the actual decision
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of like, I'm going to do this.
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I'm going to have to sue my employer and go down this road.
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I'm curious, your experience litigator at this point
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but did things play out kind of as you expected
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or you thought you knew what you were getting into
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and it played out very differently?
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I haven't really thought about it in that way
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because as you know, a litigation is a marathon.
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It's not a sprint.
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This particular person had to be stopped before they caused more harm
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to especially young, impressionable trainees
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who were coming to study yoga.
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And I hate to say this but a lot of evidence came out
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in relation to my own colleagues, people at work who he had molested
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and caused great difficulties to in their careers
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and just in terms of control, there is one particular couple
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who got married and then he told them they had to separate
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because he didn't like the fact that they were from different races.
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So here he was controlling his races, his sexist, his misogynistic,
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his anti-Semitic and he thinks it's funny and he's defiant
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and he gets away with it and he's continued to get away with it
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because all we've done is take a tiger
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and put them in a small occasion and he ran, he's fled.
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But at least the women of Los Angeles are safer.
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But the one thing that I think your listeners might be interested
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to learn is that you don't have to file the case yourself.
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You can elect to allow the authorities,
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the government to file the complaint for you.
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Your workplace toxic hostile work environment case,
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they will investigate and file it.
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We just made a decision strategically and for various reasons
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that we wanted to run the litigation ourselves.
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The problematic area was there were some witnesses and attorneys
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who had worked for the company who were cautioning me not to do it
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that he was such a dangerous man that I would live to regret it.
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Some of the earlier rats, the death threats that have been well publicized
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were being relayed to me via attorneys, former attorneys,
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so they'd get phone calls.
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So in terms of, you know, the question that was put to me earlier
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about things they were doing or saying these,
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we were not in the days of prolific social media
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anyway, not that happened after the trial.
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It was more in terms of the threats that were coming,
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the having to go to the police, having to report death threats of kidnapped
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against what was a very small child at the time.
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These are all classified as sort of being acts of obstruction
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interference with witnesses trying to stop somebody from filing a lawsuit.
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And that is where things got serious very quickly.
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When this case was happening, this was pre-MeToo movement.
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It's very scary to get death threats.
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You are a mother.
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You were a single mom of a very young daughter at the time.
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And so how did you mentally navigate that?
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I was adamant that I wasn't going to go quietly into the night.
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I felt it was my duty to bring to light
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all of the malfeasance that was going on in the company
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because I thought it was also giving yoga such a bad name.
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You know, having all of this happen
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and the dangers that people were just not aware of in terms of
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the dangers to their persons, the risk of being preyed upon
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but also the risk of, you know, losing all your money
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not getting refunds if you didn't like it.
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And all the health and safety risks
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because not all of the studios were run in a manner
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that was compliant with the rules.
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Your viewers may have brought a story a few years ago
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where a woman actually died at one of these yoga training camps
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that was held in Hacker Polko.
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That's something we've been warning about for a long time.
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I personally love yoga.
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I practice it.
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I think the big room style is possibly the best sequence
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that there is and he was, this is where the snake oil was good.
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The actual yoga was good, but the charlatan who was a day
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who was promoting it, not good and not self-cord.
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I think I've described him as being like the pipe,
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the pipe of yoga, his followers.
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They will follow him to the ends of the earth.
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It's very cultish.
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Yes, it did operate like a cult,
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but it had elements of a cult, but it was more than that.
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It was sort of just blind devotion to a human being
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who is flawed.
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You know, he says these highly inappropriate things
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and does these highly inappropriate things
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often to your own friends and loved ones.
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Hi.
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And so there is an element of cowardice there
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where there is a reluctance to speak out.
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This is specific to yoga, but working in entertainment.
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There's a very real Hollywood correlation here.
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It may not be a cult, but it may be like a cult of personality
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where you have big personalities or very wealthy people.
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A lot of people around them are like flying monkeys
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or they're on the payroll or they're entrenched in a way
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around the ecosystem of a talent or a personality.
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And it can be very, very daunting
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to think about taking those people on.
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And it's widely just socially discouraged
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as like a thing that will completely end your life
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and for certain your career.
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So I'm curious for you two things
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just thinking about like people watching us
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and what advice you might have for them around two things
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around one, you know, you know,
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non-disclosures or non-despairage agreements,
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which are very, very pervasive now and common
316
00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:48.960
even in quote unquote progressive workplaces.
317
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.200
So I'm curious what your thoughts are about that.
318
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:55.000
And also like what advice would you have for someone
319
00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:59.320
who was thinking about pursuing having to like
320
00:22:59.320 --> 00:23:01.840
sue their employer for sexual harassment?
321
00:23:01.840 --> 00:23:05.040
What are the kind of things that they should consider
322
00:23:05.040 --> 00:23:07.600
in light of how challenging it is?
323
00:23:07.600 --> 00:23:10.920
Not my case to give out legal advice to any of your listeners,
324
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:13.160
but there are resources out there
325
00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:15.760
again depending on what jurisdiction they're in.
326
00:23:15.760 --> 00:23:19.400
Generally speaking, I would say avoid the courtroom
327
00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:21.480
if at all possible.
328
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:26.480
So one advantage of having an employer
329
00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:30.720
who has put forward as part of your contractual package
330
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.760
non-disclosure, there are confidentiality clauses
331
00:23:33.760 --> 00:23:36.760
are essential in many, many industries
332
00:23:36.760 --> 00:23:39.600
and it's just a negotiate point
333
00:23:39.600 --> 00:23:41.360
and it's also, you know, there is freedom
334
00:23:41.360 --> 00:23:43.720
of contract people can sign what they want to sign
335
00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:47.800
and not sign what they, what they feel uncomfortable with.
336
00:23:47.800 --> 00:23:50.960
But at the end of the day, most normal employers
337
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:55.960
have insurance and they make payments into policies
338
00:23:58.120 --> 00:24:02.240
and you're able to claim your benefits and so on.
339
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:05.680
My situation, this was not a normal employer.
340
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:08.440
This was a highly hostile toxic work environment
341
00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:13.440
where there was zero compliance with any rules and norms.
342
00:24:13.760 --> 00:24:17.120
And in terms of the medium, even if there was a trend
343
00:24:17.120 --> 00:24:22.120
towards sort of making the allegation, going public
344
00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:27.280
and then the perpetrators were being canceled.
345
00:24:27.280 --> 00:24:30.160
But I don't know if there was any remedy
346
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:32.720
that was flowing from that.
347
00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:36.080
My understanding is the complainants
348
00:24:36.080 --> 00:24:39.600
were still losing their jobs.
349
00:24:39.600 --> 00:24:43.960
So I don't know how effective the remedial,
350
00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:47.440
the compensatory aspect of that was
351
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:52.440
I would encourage women who find themselves in difficult
352
00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:56.280
workplace related situations to debt advice,
353
00:24:56.280 --> 00:25:01.280
to obviously go to the police if there has been any assault
354
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:05.720
anything that rises to the level of a crime.
355
00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:08.600
I would suggest that we start using the resources
356
00:25:08.600 --> 00:25:12.280
that are available and there are actual government departments
357
00:25:12.280 --> 00:25:14.320
whose job it is to help people.
358
00:25:14.320 --> 00:25:16.560
I did actually go onto the DOJ website
359
00:25:16.560 --> 00:25:19.680
because they have a form where you can go in
360
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:22.520
and put in your complaint and things and they have one.
361
00:25:22.520 --> 00:25:24.720
A journey you've gone through,
362
00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:26.320
would you do it all again
363
00:25:26.320 --> 00:25:28.160
or would you tell your young yourself?
364
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:29.360
Yeah, absolutely, yes.
365
00:25:29.360 --> 00:25:32.760
I don't have any regret about what we did.
366
00:25:32.760 --> 00:25:35.080
Obviously, procedurally we did everything
367
00:25:35.080 --> 00:25:36.960
that we could possibly do.
368
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:41.320
I do wish we'd had more support from the authorities
369
00:25:41.320 --> 00:25:43.720
early on, right when the Vatican came in
370
00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:46.200
when there was a very small window of time
371
00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:48.920
to arrest this gentleman, yeah,
372
00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:51.880
because once they fled the jurisdiction
373
00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:53.800
and it was nothing much you could do.
374
00:25:53.800 --> 00:25:56.040
The accountability, obviously there's assets
375
00:25:56.040 --> 00:26:00.080
and there are co-conspirators and there's family members
376
00:26:00.080 --> 00:26:04.720
and employees who can be held to account
377
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:06.720
but when the main perpetrator
378
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.120
and leaving so many victims in his wake
379
00:26:10.120 --> 00:26:13.960
and then going on to continue that type of behavior
380
00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:16.760
defiant in other countries
381
00:26:16.760 --> 00:26:19.200
it would have been helpful at the time
382
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:21.400
to have had more operation
383
00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:23.600
and the reviewers have seen
384
00:26:23.600 --> 00:26:26.880
the Netflix documentary it's called Yogi Guru Predator
385
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.320
where you do actually show the entire litigation process
386
00:26:30.320 --> 00:26:32.800
almost from the beginning with depositions,
387
00:26:32.800 --> 00:26:36.520
how it unfolded, so you're able to see
388
00:26:36.560 --> 00:26:41.400
sort of the anatomy, the journey of what it takes
389
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:46.400
to bring this type of matters to trial, it's not easy.
390
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:49.280
I was just lucky enough to come out of it and skate
391
00:26:49.280 --> 00:26:52.040
but I will say that the threat never goes away,
392
00:26:52.040 --> 00:26:53.080
it's not like that.
393
00:26:53.080 --> 00:26:53.880
Sure.
394
00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:54.840
The journey is ended.
395
00:26:54.840 --> 00:26:56.880
In fact, the case hasn't has an end.
396
00:26:56.880 --> 00:26:58.240
Because he's still alluding,
397
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:00.440
paying, he's still not complying.
398
00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:03.280
Well, he started doing it in different countries, correct?
399
00:27:03.280 --> 00:27:06.080
He started up studios in different countries
400
00:27:06.080 --> 00:27:09.160
and just continues to do it outside of the United States.
401
00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:12.200
Yeah, he's always, they've always had studios in other countries,
402
00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:14.200
they've started doing that big training
403
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:17.160
where hundreds of people fly in from all over the world
404
00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:19.080
and they collect the fees
405
00:27:19.080 --> 00:27:20.680
and it can be millions of dollars
406
00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:23.000
and it's twice a year, it's nine weeks,
407
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:25.720
they've been doing what we call those training camps
408
00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:27.320
the hot yoga teacher training.
409
00:27:27.320 --> 00:27:28.360
They have been doing those,
410
00:27:28.360 --> 00:27:32.840
that has always been the biggest money spinner for them.
411
00:27:32.840 --> 00:27:34.600
Yeah, they've continued that,
412
00:27:34.600 --> 00:27:36.080
but outside of the US,
413
00:27:36.080 --> 00:27:39.360
because we do have the bench warrant out.
414
00:27:39.360 --> 00:27:40.200
I'm saying.
415
00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:41.440
How does that feeling like for you?
416
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:43.400
You won your verdict in 2016,
417
00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:45.760
but you haven't been able to recover all the assets
418
00:27:45.760 --> 00:27:48.400
because you fled, is that right?
419
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:52.120
Yes, I mean, it's still about $10 million.
420
00:27:52.120 --> 00:27:54.720
We were able to sell some assets,
421
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:58.960
including the IP and some of the properties and the cause
422
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:00.800
and recover some cash,
423
00:28:00.840 --> 00:28:03.920
but the majority of it went to paying the cost
424
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:06.520
of the trial, legal fees.
425
00:28:06.520 --> 00:28:08.480
You've got to pay the jury fee,
426
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:09.840
you've got to pay for the sheriff
427
00:28:09.840 --> 00:28:12.040
when they come and seize an asset.
428
00:28:12.040 --> 00:28:14.160
Do you feel like you want?
429
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:16.440
He's still out there.
430
00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:21.440
There hasn't been a 360 amount of accountability for him.
431
00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:27.880
And yet your career definitely got stifled as a result.
432
00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:30.400
Yeah, I mean, obviously when we won,
433
00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:32.880
we did win and we won.
434
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:37.080
I hope that my victory encourages women,
435
00:28:37.080 --> 00:28:41.000
people in general, to stand up when they see wrongdoing
436
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:42.040
and to not give up.
437
00:28:42.040 --> 00:28:45.320
So the victory, yeah, and as I've said,
438
00:28:45.320 --> 00:28:49.000
and we never expected that recovery and collection
439
00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:52.080
would be easy, but at the same time,
440
00:28:52.080 --> 00:28:55.360
I didn't think it would be this complicated at all.
441
00:28:55.360 --> 00:28:58.400
Coming up to 10 years would still be here,
442
00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:01.800
sitting and talking about the big verdicts,
443
00:29:01.800 --> 00:29:04.160
which is not what I intended to do.
444
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:09.160
I've actually tried to distance myself from it a little bit
445
00:29:09.160 --> 00:29:11.240
and not dwell on it so much,
446
00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:14.200
not think about it in terms of winning and losing,
447
00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:17.920
but think about it in terms of that was my duty at the time
448
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:19.880
to bring the conduct to life.
449
00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:22.240
So I succeeded in doing that.
450
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:26.840
It was a bonus to be awarded a life-changing ceremony.
451
00:29:27.120 --> 00:29:32.720
And then, I mean, this is where faith and belief in the universe
452
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:36.080
has planned for me is my story is not over.
453
00:29:36.080 --> 00:29:39.480
I am working on my book,
454
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:42.600
and I'm hoping that I'll be able to tell the story
455
00:29:42.600 --> 00:29:47.680
in more detail in terms of the granular decision-making
456
00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:51.400
this strategy, but also the personal,
457
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:52.840
the emotional side of it.
458
00:29:52.840 --> 00:29:56.080
Another thing I think your listeners might want to be made
459
00:29:56.080 --> 00:29:58.880
aware of, you don't just file your lawsuit and end up,
460
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:02.240
it's not TV, it's not like TV court where you end up
461
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:06.640
in court a few weeks or months later, it takes years to...
462
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:08.480
I think it took two and a half years,
463
00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:11.520
and they went through eight or nine sets of attorneys,
464
00:30:11.520 --> 00:30:15.640
because one of the defense tactics is to you then fire.
465
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:18.360
Change your attorneys so they can set everything
466
00:30:18.360 --> 00:30:20.160
right out the clock.
467
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:22.960
Absolutely, yeah, and demoralize the idea.
468
00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:27.640
Exemoralize you, because you are considered to be smaller
469
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:29.600
and insignificant.
470
00:30:29.600 --> 00:30:30.800
Ma'am.
471
00:30:30.800 --> 00:30:32.200
I want to go back to...
472
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:34.600
I mean, well, first of all, I'm say Mickey,
473
00:30:34.600 --> 00:30:37.520
I think that you, winning your verdict,
474
00:30:37.520 --> 00:30:39.880
potentially saved a lot of young women
475
00:30:39.880 --> 00:30:43.320
from becoming victims of him.
476
00:30:43.320 --> 00:30:47.760
Thank you for making Los Angeles a little bit safer,
477
00:30:47.760 --> 00:30:49.400
particularly in health and wellness.
478
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.920
I wanted to go back to your daughter.
479
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:54.720
You were a single mom at the time.
480
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:56.160
Your daughter was...
481
00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:58.360
Six, when I joined the company.
482
00:30:58.360 --> 00:30:59.360
Yeah, very little.
483
00:30:59.360 --> 00:31:02.120
How did you manage when she became old enough
484
00:31:02.120 --> 00:31:04.960
or when she was exposed to what is going on?
485
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:08.640
How did you communicate to her what was happening
486
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:10.920
and educate her, because these are not conversations
487
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:12.640
you have with a young child typically,
488
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:15.960
but I'm sure at some point she became aware.
489
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:19.120
Yeah, I mean, we try to seize the narrative very early on
490
00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:21.800
in terms of our media strategy
491
00:31:21.800 --> 00:31:23.680
and it was made very clear to the defendants
492
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:26.440
that we were not going to take any more,
493
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:28.320
any more nonsense from them
494
00:31:28.320 --> 00:31:30.640
and we were going to meet fire with fire.
495
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:32.280
And I think taking that stance,
496
00:31:32.280 --> 00:31:34.280
having Carla Minard in particular
497
00:31:34.280 --> 00:31:36.840
and, more quickly as my attorneys,
498
00:31:36.840 --> 00:31:40.920
gave both me and my daughter a level of protection from
499
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:41.760
the get-go.
500
00:31:41.760 --> 00:31:43.480
We knew that we were safe with them.
501
00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:47.000
We also had the added benefit of having
502
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:50.160
started off as a sergeant.
503
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:51.360
It's now a lieutenant,
504
00:31:51.360 --> 00:31:54.040
so we did have people looking out for us
505
00:31:54.040 --> 00:31:55.640
and we had the authorities in the school.
506
00:31:55.640 --> 00:31:57.840
So it wasn't like we were completely isolated,
507
00:31:57.840 --> 00:31:59.840
but at night, you know, when the lawyers go home
508
00:31:59.840 --> 00:32:02.200
and you obviously don't get round the clock protection
509
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:03.200
or anything.
510
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:04.880
So at night, it was difficult.
511
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:08.200
We had to take precautions and just be careful
512
00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:11.080
about who we were letting into our space
513
00:32:11.080 --> 00:32:12.880
being careful with social media.
514
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:15.800
Wasn't much of a problem until middle school,
515
00:32:15.800 --> 00:32:17.000
not a problem, per se,
516
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:19.080
because I've always been really honest with my daughter
517
00:32:19.080 --> 00:32:23.120
and as she grew older, I would take her to,
518
00:32:23.120 --> 00:32:27.080
I remember there was a, I guess one of the earlier podcasts
519
00:32:27.080 --> 00:32:28.720
at Pop Sugar, which is a,
520
00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:30.920
which is very trendy with young women.
521
00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:32.880
So I took her to their studio
522
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:37.440
and she was able to see the way the show was put together
523
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:38.360
and the hair and makeup
524
00:32:38.360 --> 00:32:40.080
and I wanted to make it interesting for her
525
00:32:40.080 --> 00:32:44.280
and to involve her in whatever I was having to go through,
526
00:32:44.280 --> 00:32:47.240
you know, as you might think of her as my personal,
527
00:32:47.240 --> 00:32:49.160
my little stylist almost,
528
00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:54.160
involving her in the production of their case
529
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:56.880
because there were lots of different components
530
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:59.760
that went into it in the story
531
00:32:59.760 --> 00:33:04.320
and also preparing her for when something was going to come out
532
00:33:04.320 --> 00:33:07.640
or when there was going to be a time
533
00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:11.040
when I was going to have to be tied up a lot more,
534
00:33:11.040 --> 00:33:12.200
you know, particularly the trial,
535
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:16.240
it was a full month in court every single day.
536
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:17.920
I think we had a couple of Fridays,
537
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:21.440
but I always believe in having like honest conversations
538
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:23.520
with children age appropriate.
539
00:33:23.520 --> 00:33:26.680
Let's talk about aftermath,
540
00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:29.840
reinvention, what happens to your career?
541
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:32.160
That is a very good question.
542
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:37.160
When you find out, let me know on a postcard,
543
00:33:37.600 --> 00:33:41.560
but yeah, I mean, the case became my full-time job then
544
00:33:41.560 --> 00:33:45.520
because of enforcement and having to deal with the authorities
545
00:33:45.520 --> 00:33:48.160
and manage the litigation
546
00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:49.840
and because I'm a lawyer,
547
00:33:49.840 --> 00:33:51.680
yeah, I was treated like a team member
548
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:55.720
and I was at the table across the collection of the verdict
549
00:33:55.720 --> 00:33:57.800
and particularly when the Department of Justice
550
00:33:57.800 --> 00:33:59.200
appointed a trustee,
551
00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:01.920
I went and got a receiver appointed
552
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:04.240
prior over all the properties in the IP
553
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:06.560
and then the defendant went and filed
554
00:34:06.560 --> 00:34:07.400
bankruptcy.
555
00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:12.720
That is a full-time job managing post-judgment litigation.
556
00:34:12.720 --> 00:34:13.760
There was an appeal.
557
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:15.120
We went to the Court of Appeal,
558
00:34:15.120 --> 00:34:19.400
so we won on the fugitive disentitlement doctrine.
559
00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:23.440
It became a full-time or consuming job
560
00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:27.440
while at the same time trying to harness my creative side
561
00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:32.120
and having the opportunity to work on the Netflix documentary
562
00:34:32.120 --> 00:34:35.760
with Heaver Orner and Pulse Films.
563
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:36.920
That was pretty cool,
564
00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:38.080
so there were some cool moments
565
00:34:38.080 --> 00:34:39.720
and then you're working on my book,
566
00:34:39.720 --> 00:34:41.880
but also the realization that,
567
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:44.280
hey, I've got to get a job
568
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:47.880
and then the people who would call me back in five minutes
569
00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:52.040
when I was head of legal and international
570
00:34:52.040 --> 00:34:55.400
at the yoga company and running all these studios,
571
00:34:56.560 --> 00:35:00.480
they'd call me back maybe five days later, maybe never.
572
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:05.120
And so that part we're trying to go back into big law,
573
00:35:05.120 --> 00:35:09.920
I realized that once you have taken on your employer,
574
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:11.680
you become a risk.
575
00:35:11.680 --> 00:35:15.040
I don't think anyone's insurers are gonna allow you
576
00:35:15.040 --> 00:35:16.240
or certainly not partners.
577
00:35:16.240 --> 00:35:19.080
And if it is permissible,
578
00:35:19.080 --> 00:35:20.400
it would have to be somebody who's willing
579
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:22.240
to stick their neck out for me.
580
00:35:22.240 --> 00:35:25.440
And so that became problematic.
581
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:28.600
When my daughter got admission at University in the East Coast,
582
00:35:28.600 --> 00:35:32.120
I decided to start spending more time here
583
00:35:32.120 --> 00:35:34.760
and I now work for a placement firm
584
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:36.520
and I pick up gigs that go along.
585
00:35:36.520 --> 00:35:41.240
I've just been really blessed to have landed at Georgetown Law.
586
00:35:41.240 --> 00:35:43.560
It's like beyond my wildest dreams
587
00:35:43.560 --> 00:35:46.640
because when I was expecting my baby way back,
588
00:35:46.640 --> 00:35:48.280
I remember I used to walk around the campus
589
00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:50.240
and I was thought back then
590
00:35:50.240 --> 00:35:53.880
or doing an LLM or maybe teaching as an adjunct.
591
00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:55.280
I don't do any of that now.
592
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:57.000
I just work behind the scenes
593
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:01.600
and I'm so thankful to all my colleagues here
594
00:36:01.600 --> 00:36:02.440
for supporting me.
595
00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:03.640
They do not know my story.
596
00:36:03.640 --> 00:36:05.680
That's the interesting thing, baby.
597
00:36:05.680 --> 00:36:08.920
I remember when I went to ask my boss if,
598
00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:12.080
hey, I could do it and did we have a podcast
599
00:36:12.080 --> 00:36:15.240
you're now building the head of IT, the lady was there.
600
00:36:15.240 --> 00:36:16.960
And she's like, yes, we do.
601
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:20.280
And when she saw your email,
602
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:25.280
she said that she had watched hairtails.
603
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:26.280
Oh, that's right.
604
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:29.000
It is a wonderful show that you put together.
605
00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:30.000
Yeah.
606
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:31.560
You guys are really accomplished
607
00:36:31.560 --> 00:36:36.560
and I take encouragement from having had the opportunity
608
00:36:36.680 --> 00:36:37.600
to talk to you,
609
00:36:37.600 --> 00:36:42.160
but my career in so far is returning to practice
610
00:36:42.160 --> 00:36:44.560
or going back in house.
611
00:36:44.560 --> 00:36:47.240
That's not manifested yet.
612
00:36:47.240 --> 00:36:50.440
Never say never, but I do want to try
613
00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.920
and get some closure here, I think,
614
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:54.680
to answer your question.
615
00:36:54.680 --> 00:36:57.520
And how does one, how do you get accountability?
616
00:36:57.520 --> 00:36:58.560
Just really briefly
617
00:36:58.560 --> 00:37:01.880
because something you mentioned in our pre-new view
618
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:03.920
that stood out to Sean and I,
619
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:08.080
where you talked about how they defend sexual harassment cases
620
00:37:08.080 --> 00:37:11.600
and how they try to sort of frame victims.
621
00:37:11.600 --> 00:37:12.880
Like, I think you think we're like that.
622
00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:14.080
Go NSD?
623
00:37:14.080 --> 00:37:14.920
Yes.
624
00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:16.760
It's a horrible thing to say,
625
00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:20.880
but it's basically not slut goldiga.
626
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:25.720
That is the way defense lawyers then sort of craft
627
00:37:25.720 --> 00:37:28.920
of their defense is this person like a complete nut job.
628
00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:32.640
Are they, you know, where they are asking for it?
629
00:37:32.640 --> 00:37:33.480
I did not.
630
00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:34.720
And are they a goldiga?
631
00:37:34.720 --> 00:37:37.640
They're just coming after this person.
632
00:37:37.640 --> 00:37:42.640
I think I went from high profile to like low profile
633
00:37:42.640 --> 00:37:43.880
to like no profile.
634
00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:48.120
And what was intended to be like a shaming,
635
00:37:48.120 --> 00:37:50.200
you know, a shaming episode for me,
636
00:37:50.200 --> 00:37:54.880
a career killing episode has given me
637
00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:58.560
the opportunity to find my voice,
638
00:37:58.560 --> 00:38:01.640
but yeah, we've got to be careful to not be complicit
639
00:38:01.640 --> 00:38:03.520
in our own abuse.
640
00:38:03.520 --> 00:38:07.160
I think that's where we've got to step into our own power
641
00:38:07.160 --> 00:38:10.720
and say enough, no more, we're not taking this
642
00:38:10.720 --> 00:38:12.240
and we're calling it out.
643
00:38:12.240 --> 00:38:14.920
And if we're going to be labeled,
644
00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:18.080
it's not slut goldiga, then bring it on, you know?
645
00:38:18.080 --> 00:38:21.760
It's just, bring it, bring it, bring it.
646
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:22.760
Yeah.
647
00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:26.320
Well, Mickey, thank you so much for coming
648
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:28.280
to share your story and your,
649
00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:30.720
it's such a unique thing to have to go through
650
00:38:30.720 --> 00:38:32.040
what you went through.
651
00:38:32.040 --> 00:38:34.960
It's not an easy thing or a small thing.
652
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:37.400
And it's something that people have either approached
653
00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:38.760
or contemplated or thought about.
654
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:41.240
So thank you for being so transparent about your journey
655
00:38:41.240 --> 00:38:43.520
for sharing what it really looked like.
656
00:38:43.520 --> 00:38:45.920
We are grateful that you took that stand
657
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:48.000
and did what needed to be done
658
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:51.680
and very work at a settle and saw it all the way through.
659
00:38:51.680 --> 00:38:56.680
But we are very hyper aware of the sort of your personal,
660
00:38:56.840 --> 00:39:00.400
emotional and mental tax that comes along with it.
661
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:01.240
Well, thank you for that.
662
00:39:01.240 --> 00:39:02.400
And thank you for having me on.
663
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:05.160
And hopefully we laid out a masterclass,
664
00:39:05.160 --> 00:39:07.280
particularly in the Netflix documentary
665
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:11.040
and what these cases actually look like.
666
00:39:11.040 --> 00:39:13.160
We really appreciate you telling your story.
667
00:39:13.160 --> 00:39:14.000
I do as you're on it.
668
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:15.320
Thank you both very much.
