Eve Rosemary: Welcome to the Everyday Saint podcast. Today we have a very special guest with us. have Father Spitzer, which ⁓ may have heard of him from many of his academic greetings. He's also been on quite a few different ⁓ television shows, podcasts. You may have even seen him on the Today Show, which pretty phenomenal. But today we're really going back to the beginning with Father Spitzer learning about his faith journey and how he became a priest. So welcome, Father.
Fr. Spitzer: Thanks so very much for having me.
Eve Rosemary: Yes, well Father, I would love just really again to go back to the beginning. Can you kind of share with us a little bit about your upbringing? Were you a cradle Catholic? What did that look like for your journey?
Fr. Spitzer: Well, I was certainly a cradle Catholic and I'd be remiss if I didn't say that my faith journey goes right back to my mother who was a daily communicant, who as an example was very good. Every one of us kids knew how important faith was in her life, how important the church was in her life, her devotion was right out there. And I just like appropriated it. I absorbed it and was very enthusiastic. about my faith life almost from kindergarten onward. I didn't go to a Catholic school. I went to a school that was more math, science, ⁓ school. But went to CCD classes with the Maryknoll Fathers at a called Heart School in Honolulu, Hawaii. And ⁓ I have to you Sacred Heart Parish and those fathers were absolutely terrific. I mean, they were like my mother. I felt a palpable peace when I went to church and when I was at CCD. I loved going over and playing on this little garden area which was outside the priest's residence. ⁓ ⁓ serving Mass. I got into it. They made you part of the ⁓ of the Altar. ⁓ was definitely into that. I just loved learning about... the Catholic faith. I loved going to church, honestly. Sometimes, of course, I was restless and my mother had to give me the dagger stare to get me back refocused, but not often. really loved it. At the time I was going, of course, the Love Masters in Latin, and we had our own little missile there. It wasn't an exact translation. It was a kid translation, but I would be buried in my little missile and very, very enthusiastic. And like I said,
Eve Rosemary: Rui.
Fr. Spitzer: anything anybody said with any religious value, I was unabsorbed. It's like baptismal grace I got, you the Holy Spirit, it was animating me all the time. mean, it was I was very, very enthusiastic. And ⁓ that on all the way through ninth grade. And then, you know, in ninth grade, you know, I had a little, you know, ⁓ some things you know, where I kind of went, whoa, Nellie Beliare, I got to check some things out. So ⁓ You know, a lot of people were challenging me on my faith, as I said, I didn't go to Catholic school, but I went to a school that was at least denominational Protestant, School. you know, I went to the chapel there, but mostly, you know, science actually confirmed my faith when I was younger. ⁓ the literature classes that I had, you know, a lot of that was pretty, ⁓ pretty on the religious score. was portrayed almost to the point of, why would an all-loving God allow this to happen? And I wasn't yet old enough to situate that in terms of human choice and
Eve Rosemary: you
Fr. Spitzer: just couldn't quite get the freedom argument down pat well enough ⁓ to respond. So I was kind of, I went, you know, wavering a little bit, but I didn't ⁓ ever stop to church.
Eve Rosemary: ⁓
Fr. Spitzer: The pull I had from my grade school, my intuition about God, my happiness in abiding in God, my love of the church, it never waned. But I was going around in high school more or less asking priests or asking teachers, know, is there any evidence for God? Do we have any kind of proof and so forth?
Eve Rosemary: So.
Fr. Spitzer: Unfortunately, when I was in high school, a lot of people answered, well, faith is a mystery. good enough. Some people told me, you know, well, ⁓ hold a baby and then, ⁓ know, ⁓ know it's a miracle and you'll see God exists. Holding the baby, not enough. You know, it just wasn't convincing. I mean, I still went to church. I still love God. I still thought he existed, but I just wanted I needed a comeback.
Eve Rosemary: No. Right.
Fr. Spitzer: I didn't want to take any blows that I couldn't respond to. was, you know, when I was a kid, know, curious, intelligent, I wanted answers. ⁓ know, ⁓ I went to Gonzaga University, where later became president. But at the time, ⁓ I had any thought about that. But at time, you know, when I was going there, I just had some professors at work. incredibly helpful to me. One guy actually pulled out, you know, it was the latest and greatest, you know, singularity equations, by Friedman and Penrose, honking in Penrose and ⁓ later some articles by Friedman and I began, wow, you know, you know, all space timelines come to a point of infinite curvature to a point ⁓ in finite past, that would indicative of a creation moment, you know, so. I didn't get all the math at the time because I couldn't understand tensor calculus, but I did get the concepts in global fashion. so basically at that point I began, day of course the Holy Spirit is still guiding me. I'm going down the corridors at and I hear this metaphysics professor going, Prove for the existence of God. I stop literally in the...
Eve Rosemary: Yeah, stop doing drugs.
Fr. Spitzer: Yeah, truly. I stopped and stopped in the hallway and I thought, I gotta go into this class. I looked officially, you know. I kind of walked in there like I knew what I was doing. Went to the back of the class and you know, I was trying to follow this proof, but he was already mid course into it for a couple of days. So I was trying to catch up and figure out what he was doing. And then finally I came up to him afterwards and I said, OK, this doesn't sound convincing. I got a problem here and there. The guy goes. I know very well you're not in this class. He says, know, if come to the class, enroll in the whole thing, I'll prove the existence of God to you. So I did. I enrolled. And he did. You know, and then I got exposed not just to St. Thomas Aquinas and, the great Klubertans, you know, as I ⁓ read, Klubertans' commentaries on the proof for the existence of God in his book on natural theology. I also was able to get exposed to Bernard Lonergan who came to our campus. So they're talking about this proof in chapter 19 of insight, big huge tome. So I went down to that bookstore, e-mediamente, and I got that book. It cost me a small fortune, but I picked up that book and I read that chapter 19. And then because I couldn't understand all of it, you know, without reading other chapters of the book, I wound up reading a huge chunk of insight. You know, by the time I was you my sophomore, junior year of college, I was very much into Aquinas and Lonergan and, you know, ⁓ Transcendental ⁓ know, called Valley Thomism, you know, definitely, you know, all of a I was turned on completely. And luckily, Gonzaga University at that time had a free audit policy. So if you were taking 18 credit hours and you were doing very well, you could take as many classes, audit, not take, audit as many classes as you wanted, free of charge. You could do, and that was, like for me, that's going to a banquet, a buffet banquet. And I was just.
Eve Rosemary: Wow. Yeah, someone who loves academics, mean, that's like ⁓
Fr. Spitzer: It was everything. I just like switched on Spitzer. know, so of course I started going into theology classes, scripture classes, history classes. I was the happiest claim on planet earth and slowly but surely what wound up happening is my religion became front and center in my life. And then all of a sudden I thought, you know, there's a law career, there's business and law career, you know. put that on hold for a second and maybe I should think about a priestly vocation. I don't want to go into the whole thing, but this question occurred to me and I just thought I can't think of anything more important in my life. But at the very same time, I wanted to follow my father in having a wonderful family life. I wanted to take over his law firm, which none of my other brothers and sisters are interested in law or business, corporation law. You know, I was a guy, I was it, you know, and so I was interested also in family businesses. So I was kind of torn between in between. And, know, my dad was so happy with my mother, a very happily married couple. So I had, you know, I was just sitting there going, well, I'm not sure. And my mom, you know, I must have talked to her about it on the phone one day. And in those days, of course, we didn't have cell phones.
Eve Rosemary: It's beautiful.
Fr. Spitzer: You called up on the payphone in the corridor. So but I don't know how I got on the topic with mom, but she goes, I just read this article in Time magazine the permanent diaconate. And I said, what's that all about? Well, you can ⁓ be a cleric for the church and you can also be married so long ⁓ as ⁓ become after you're married. You know, and of course, he goes, you could take over your dad's law firm and everything. And, know, you could get the best of both worlds. So I thought, that's great. You know, and this is a solution to problems. But I had this nagging thing going on inside of me. tell you, the Holy Spirit nags and nags. And so, of course, you know, finally, I just was coming out of this mass at St. Al's.
Eve Rosemary: best of both worlds. ⁓
Fr. Spitzer: St. Aloysius Church. And so I caught out of the side of my eye, you know, I caught this book on being a priest. It was like, you know, a 30, 40 page pamphlet. forget what it was. Lots of pictures in it, so forth and so on, by a guy named Father Armstrong. I just said, half of my brain said, read that book. The other half of my brain said, do not read that book. But I picked up the book and read the book. ⁓ just...
Eve Rosemary: were you kind of hesitant to read it because did it seem like a almost like a next step in that journey for you?
Fr. Spitzer: Well, no, I was scared I'd get persuaded to be a priest and my super solution with being a permanent deacon and taking away ⁓ It'd be dashed and that's exactly what happened so I you know, I got the thing was actually dashed into the ground ⁓ know, I read that book and I said that's me This is I am. It's almost as if the Holy Spirit just galvanized in me this thought You know you Spencer, your religion is your life. You know, you've gotten into it. know, you've debated in this subject, you know, this person, that person, you've already been on ⁓ TV, know, this is your life, you know, this is the center of it. And I just, ⁓ you I read that book, I looked at those pictures, which were just as, you know, persuasive to me as ⁓ the the print, you know, the arguments. And so I... I basically thought, you know, maybe I should look into this. And then I had a bizarre incident. You know, I was working in a public accounting firm at the time and I used to take up a little alleyway, you know, to a shortcut get to downtown Spokane where I could work in the accounting firm down there. And ⁓ I was going down there, kind of just up in my good clothes, my suit, so forth. This rainstorm just happens. won't go into the details. I'll just simply say I was getting poured on. I this little shack in alley that had a galvanized steel eave coming off of the roof. I ⁓ shot over there get underneath. And the water is literally like a water fountain just pouring over me. I felt like it was an inside cave and a big waterfall. and just looking and this water is pouring over me. And I don't know why I said it. I just said, OK, Lord, is this about me being a priest or something? ⁓
Eve Rosemary: Wow, that's interesting that made- yeah, that connection doesn't quite seem like it makes sense.
Fr. Spitzer: I tell you it was the Holy Spirit that that is not who I am. am a very systematic thinker, very logical. ⁓ not pick up analogies by association almost. ⁓ know, in fact, my sisters will probably tell you I'm a dunderhead in this area, ⁓ ⁓ have to tell you ⁓ exactly what occurred to me. It's almost like I was inspired to say as a Zelda, you know, and of course I said, OK, if it is.
Eve Rosemary: Mm-hmm.
Fr. Spitzer: make the rain stop. And it did. It stopped so quickly that I was shocked. I would never make a decision like that again, a discernment like that in my whole life. In fact, I thought it was so silly in the aftermath. You know, could this really be, you know, would God really work this way, stopping the rain, you know, to satisfy the stubborn little kid? You know, and I thought maybe he would. So I thought, you know,
Eve Rosemary: Great.
Fr. Spitzer: I promised when I made that, you know, make the rain stop, said, I'll go see Father O'Learyers. He was the vocations guy. I'd been thinking about it, but that did it. So I went and saw him.
Eve Rosemary: Yeah, that would be a pretty clear sign and really interesting because up to this point it seems like you're, you get, definitely given a gift of faith at a young age, which is very evident, but then it seems like everything since then kind of took some time of like really learning and thinking through it. And like, here's this moment in a single instance. You get an answer. Right.
Fr. Spitzer: See Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Well, no, it was a catalyzing moment, even honestly, I would have liked to have had more noble motives, but it was really a book on priesthood and a rainstorm that that kind of got me, you know, kicked me in the high ⁓ rear end there and got me over to Father O'Leary. And, you know, my first encounter with it was very strange, you know.
Eve Rosemary: Hahaha
Fr. Spitzer: I walked in there and he goes, well, how long have you been thinking about this? Well, I didn't tell him I'd been thinking about it for a whole year and a half, you know, really it was catalyzing over the last three weeks or four weeks. So I said, you know, three or four weeks or so. And he just starts laughing, you know, so, you maybe back to permanent Deacon here, you know, so. He said, what do you know about the vows? The three vows. And he said, well, the vow of chastity is where you're chaste for Christ the vow of poverty is where you're poor for Christ and the vow of obedience is where you're obedient for Christ. And he goes, do you know anything more? I said, not really. And he goes, okay, read these five books. So one of them was on the vows and it was a very good and informative book.
Eve Rosemary: You
Fr. Spitzer: but the one that got me, I read that autobiography of St. Ignatius of Loyola and I thought, like this guy, know, ⁓ action packed all the way. You know, this is a guy and I love the concept of the Magus, you know, just ⁓ ⁓ means the even more, you know, and so I looked at that Ignatius has three questions, you know, well, you know, what's the greatest universal knee?
Eve Rosemary: I have a new friend.
Fr. Spitzer: And let's say it's trying to prevent people from diving off the atheistic agnostic cliff just because they don't ⁓ know reasons when there's tons of reasons out there, but they just don't know. And then the second question of Ignatius is, well, is anybody else doing it? Well, at the time, no. The Church not doing a huge amount in science-based. apologetic so we did have some good philosophical based apologetics. We sure weren't publicizing it well. And then finally, of course, you know, well, do you have some competency in it? And I was arrogant enough to think, well, if I don't have competency now, I will later. I will make sure I have competency in this. And Ignatius said, well, ⁓ the answer to these questions is yes, get going.
Eve Rosemary: ⁓ huh.
Fr. Spitzer: And I thought, I like that and I like him and I like the way he just, he sees the need to blammo, whammo, right? He goes out, finds somebody who gives him money to getting the thing done. He goes out, he recruits some people who want to do it, you know, and, and, you know, join forces, you know, he takes some people who really want to do the spiritual exercises and want to, you know, get purification in their heart and really want to do it. And so it kind of puts it together. Next thing you know, you know, the Jesuits. in a single generation of the largest school system in all of Europe and not only in Catholic Europe but in all the reformed too. I thought, you know, this guy, could follow him. ⁓ I'd like to follow Jesus, of course, that's the main thing. But he looks like a guy who wants to get things done, not a guy who likes to get things done. So it was a meeting of the hearts and minds
Eve Rosemary: Yeah. Right. Right.
Fr. Spitzer: ⁓
Eve Rosemary: well, and if I could just, I want to highlight here too, for who are listening, especially with having a younger audience like this, these moments of discernment too, and learning from other saints about how they discerned. And ⁓ really, especially this process, it sounds like it's kind of where in the world the love of God. Do I have the qualities? Like has God given me these qualities and now, okay, now let's go and do it. That sounds like, especially what St. Ignatius did is like he felt a call and he trusted in God so he went for it, even if it wasn't going to work out. And now here you are learning from that same discernment and have gone on to do all these incredible things with that knowledge. But it started even before your discernment for the priesthood. And now it's like continuing into that discernment and actually helping you.
Fr. Spitzer: ⁓ yeah?
Eve Rosemary: find that call for your vocation.
Fr. Spitzer: ⁓ yeah, the Holy Spirit is very crafty. I use that in a good sense. knows just how to get you. He ⁓ you off from one thing and pushes you in another direction ever so subtly so that it's always your choice. But he's very good persuader. I have to say that as I of move through my own discernment process,
Eve Rosemary: get you. Is that? You
Fr. Spitzer: There's a thing called consolation and desolation. I was always in a state of consolation after my first half year in the novitiate. There were moments, of course, you always look back and you go, oh gosh, what have I done? I remember once going to a baseball game. I was teaching as a regent before I got ordained. They had me teaching at Seattle University to philosophy. classes to university students. went to an all-star game or something and it was bat night and all these young guys are there with their little kids and know I thought ⁓ my gosh what have I done. You know around me has got all their kids and they're you know they got the bats and the hats you know and they're they're happy and so forth and you know I'm a seminarian and all I can tell you is things are very temporary. It's like the evil spirit just can't wait. If he sees somebody who is really serious about a vocation, he's gonna plug ⁓ ulterior motive he can. So first thing he says, the reason you joined is because of these inauthentic ulterior motives. And if you don't have any principles of discernment and Ignatius does have very good principles of discernment. But at the time, I wasn't overly familiar with them. I'd seen them when I did my long retreat in the novitiate and all. But basically, I would get sucker punched and think, gosh, maybe that's me. Maybe I secretly hated law or accounting. I could think of an ulterior motive every 10 seconds. of course, that became my principal reason for joining. But my real reason for joining is I loved God. I wanted to serve his kingdom. I wanted to serve his people. And every time I thought about that, I was really enthusiastic and my religion became the center of my life. But I had to recenter myself on the truth because like I said, the evil spirit, he just zings in and he stings and zings in and he stings again, you know, and of course the ulterior motive is that, or the other thing is look at what everybody else is doing. They already have families, they're already doing responsible things. I could be doing this too. And here I am all day studying, studying, you know, Lord, are you sure this is what you want from me? And so forth. And you just got to learn to recognize, you know, the evil spirit rushes in. He's going to try everything. He's going to fill you with doubts. He's going to fill you with nightmares, give you some real hassle. The voice of the evil spirit is always, you're a and ⁓ what do you think you're doing? You're not worthy of joining it. For the first two of you were a greedy numbers guy. You treated nobody well. Who do think you are? You want special? I'll give you special.
Eve Rosemary: Good.
Fr. Spitzer: So, but that's not the voice of God. That's not the voice the Holy Spirit. It's the voice of the evil spirit who's trying to use shame, guilt, fear, know, everything he can to hit you, you know, the head. And ⁓ like I a lot of guys, I consider myself that ⁓ there was always in my life. was able to to those things very quickly. having a director very, very important. And my spiritual directors during my especially when I in formation and seminary, were really helpful to me because Without them, I might have gotten sucker punched. And I know some guys who did. I thought they for sure had vocations. And they literally canceled out. They all these things flood them. And then the desolation confusion that came with that flooding, they off. And you just have to learn be resilient, learn to be spitzer stubborn.
Eve Rosemary: you
Fr. Spitzer: But above all, learn to be discerning and listen to your spiritual director. ⁓
Eve Rosemary: Sure, and I'd love to just here for a second too, because as someone who's in my early ⁓ now, ⁓ in what I've experienced and what I've seen other people my age experience, there is a lot of fear in decisions that we're talking about. Kind of like a fear of like, ⁓ do I have a call to marriage or religious life or ⁓ like, does God have for me? And it's really easy to come at that.
Fr. Spitzer: Mm-hmm.
Eve Rosemary: with a sense of fear, which I think is definitely kind of as we're talking about the discernment of spirits, not the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit doesn't lead us in fear. So if you could maybe just speak to what does that discernment look like between figuring out how to follow the Holy Spirit's voice ⁓ kind get away from some of those fearful and negative thoughts that are pulling you away from the fulfillment that the Holy Spirit truly does offer.
Fr. Spitzer: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's really good question. I mean, the first thing, know, I just I have some questions for people right the get go. Number one, your religion at the center of your life or is it not? If there are things at the center of your life, I don't know, you want to be a great businessman, good lawyer, good soldier. Nothing wrong with that. You know, I mean, but if it and what I mean by the center of your life is, do you want to make your religion? kind of the center of what you do, what you think, so forth. ⁓ the institutions you join and associate yourself with, et cetera. If you don't, put up the vocation decision. If your religion is not just smack dab in the center, if are other things that just really capture, fascinate you, capture your I wanna start all these businesses, whatever. Take note, because the Holy Spirit does, you know, He catalyzes, each of us are different, right? We're all very, very different, but there's this catalyzing of, you know, being with the Lord, serving the Lord, the kingdom of God, religion, kingdom, Lord, center of my life. That's what I want to do. Here's where I find meaning and legacy. If that's there, That's number one question. that off the list. The second thing to check off the list just in terms of, know, to look at yourself. You know, I came from a super good so family life didn't represent I wanted to flee ⁓ I loved it and I was super to my brothers and sisters. So, I mean, because of that, you know, I had to sort of make a decision. Do I want a breadth vocation or do I want a depth vocation? What I mean by that is, do I want to serve a large number of people where I can present myself as being free from other constraints to each and every parishioner or each and every student or whoever, you whoever my constituencies are, each and every constituent. present myself to them as if they are what matters to me right now. That, you know, there's not something else that I have to take care of that's a higher priority. are there because God's my highest priority and my ⁓ highest priority right now because that is way that God would want me to have my priorities is to focus on you the student, you the parishioner, whatever. So the point is, that who think you are? Are you a breadth kind of person? Follow the wherever he directs you. No particular intimacy. Of course you can have emotional intimacy with people. You can have sort of deep friends and so forth. But of course you can't have romantic or sexual intimacy. You know, obviously if you do that, you're moving into a intimacy with somebody. You know that, ⁓ you ⁓ necessity make them your number one priority. You know, they're, you in your life, you know, you intend to start a family with them. You intend to bond emotionally, not only to spouse, but to your children, your family. And that, you know, means that the, ⁓ you know, the the wife, the spouse has to become the number one priority and you can only have one number one priority logically so it has to be an exclusive relationship limited to one. know you're looking at that and you have to say well that's a great life too. I mean having that deep intimacy you can come and tell people ⁓ only about your problems but you can focus on loving your spouse and your children. as a number one priority, they look back to you in the same way. As you know, there's nothing better than having the love of kids reflected right back to you as an individual, but also as a couple. You know, it's a tremendous, wonderful, great life, you know, but it's just different. You know, if you want to be committed to go anywhere, do anything, be obedient to where the Lord wants you to. do what Ignatius would call the even more, get out there and do the mission. And there's no other standing in the way. know, that's kind of you, if you're a breadth person and you wanna be more of a breadth person and singularly serving the Lord as a breadth person, and you you can, and this is not easy to do. but you think you can forego the emotional intimacy of marriage. And remember, the emotional intimacy of marriage takes a lot of time, a lot of commitment, and a lot of self-sacrifice. Breath ministries do too, but this commitment and the self-sacrifice and the time is focused on a small group in marriage, a large group in a priestly vocation or in a celibate vocation. So who's you?
Eve Rosemary: Thank
Fr. Spitzer: That's the thought. you're saying, I'm kind of a breadth person. I want to follow the Lord where he is. If that's the case, then I would say you have two steps now you have to take if the answers to one and two are yes. I'm a religions at the center. I'm a breadth person. That's the way I want to serve. want to follow God to serve everyone. He wants me to serve wherever the need is great. OK, if that's the case, ⁓ thing to do is ⁓ out to you know, they have these vocation days, right? and in these vocation days in schools or the dioceses run vocation days, kinds of things, where you can actually get various brochures of kinds of religious orders. And you to know yourself ⁓ in some degree. Can you imagine trying to be a monastic person who says hardly anything? ⁓
Eve Rosemary: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.
Fr. Spitzer: would kill me. ⁓ I said, yeah, I'm probably not going to be a monk. I love being alone with the Lord in prayer. But when the hour is over, I move back to my usual blabbermouth ⁓ ⁓ know, you know, picking books right and left and so forth, or now audible books. ⁓ But main thing is, you know, know yourself,
Eve Rosemary: Thank Thank you.
Fr. Spitzer: Look at things. Look at the oars. If you think that a habit is important, part of your call. Then choose one that wears a habit and so forth. So that third step is just find where you're being called. And of course, that gets us to the fourth point.
Eve Rosemary: Mm-hmm. Right.
Fr. Spitzer: And the fourth point is once you've identified some places that might be you, right? you know, figure out, appeal to you, get a spiritual director from that community or do a come and see as they call it with that community. So do, you know, try ⁓ best to get some sense ⁓ you know, a visit essential. My visit to the Jesuit novitiate was essential. you you've got to see when you get there, do you have a resonance, what we call consolation, where the spirit is moving you this direction and you just sense, I could want for nothing more than this. Or you have a sense of desolation? Or maybe it's sort of ambiguous. But the point is, if consolation there, in abundance, that's a good sign. Desolation is not necessarily a bad sign. It just means that you don't have that confirmation yet. So you may want to do some other common sees and look around. But the main thing is, once you the community that where you think, is me, I be here, that's when you have to get a spiritual director from that. diocese from that religious community, whatever it may be, get that spiritual director and listen to him or And if ⁓ the discernment is looking quite positive, then ⁓ for me, the only way you're gonna find out is if you join up. I mean, this whole thing about going to be locked in indecision for the next five years. thought is, when you join a religious community, you join as a postulant or a novice, right?
Eve Rosemary: Right, you're still discerning.
Fr. Spitzer: So, you're still correct. You are still discerning. And so just, you don't have to have made the decision ⁓ ⁓ clarity and precision, you know, but so many people think they do. And so I just say, keep that discern, you know, it's like a period of dating before ⁓ you, know, decide I'm going to propose to this guy, this person.
Eve Rosemary: Yeah.
Fr. Spitzer: or whatever. know, the idea there is you live that life, you live the spirituality, If you're going do this, just ask, just tell yourself one thing. I'm to read the rules for discernment of spirits. I'm going to figure out and I'm going to ask my spiritual director to help me figure out. whether some bunch of thoughts is from the evil spirit or from the good spirit, whether this consolation is from the good spirit or the evil spirit, whether this desolation is from the good spirit or the evil spirit. Most of the time consolation is from the good spirit. Most of the time desolation is from the evil spirit, but not always. 20 % of the time it goes in reverse and it's the reverse ones that are really important and to know the rules. thing is if you're gonna go forward with whatever it is, vows or diaconate and so forth, which of course leads a year later to the priesthood, if you're gonna do that, then make up your mind, I'm gonna be a discerning individual.
Eve Rosemary: yeah, and we don't do it alone by any means, right? Like you both in the Holy Spirit's ⁓ realm of ⁓ expertise, right? Like he's guiding us through all of it. And as you keep mentioning too, having that spiritual director, having people that you can turn to and ask for advice and ⁓ people who are going to reassure you, there's a reason that you've been put on this path. And these moments of fear and not knowing what's next or those spiritual attacks that you're facing. Like you need someone to walk with you through that so that you can continue on the path. Because the path that God has for us, it isn't always easy, but we can see how well worth it is. And I'm sure now as someone who's been a priest for many years, like you can see how that, how you came out on the other side of that from your seminary. I'm sure you've probably faced moments even since then. that you've had to be reassured of that, that God's will does prevail when we allow Him to work in our life and we say yes and take the time to discern that.
Fr. Spitzer: ⁓ yeah.
Eve Rosemary: I think where we left off kind of in your vocation journey was you were in the seminary and then obviously you are specifically a Jesuit priest. ⁓ So you always on the path with being a Jesuit or is that something that you discovered in your spirituality as you went along in the discernment?
Fr. Spitzer: Actually, partially discovered by pure happenstance, I went to a Jesuit university. know, ⁓ was the type, honestly, that would have several questions bubbling up in my mind. And so I would go to the third floor, which was, you know, the faculty offices and search around for a Jesuit who might be staying around on a Friday afternoon. You know, Father Tom Reiser come and say, ⁓ well, well, well, Bob Spitzer here on a Friday afternoon again. And I said, yes, I have three questions. Only three today. That's good. And of course, I would blurt out all of these things and he tried to answer them and so forth. But the main thing is guys presented such an example of openness and helpfulness to me,
Eve Rosemary: Only three!
Fr. Spitzer: They were just there. naturally when I decided that ⁓ wanted to a priest, I thought of the Jesuits because I love their academic excellence as part things. loved when I read St. Ignatius of Loyola's biography, I love the whole idea of the mages and the even more and greatest universal need. I then, of course, I love the example of so many of these Jesuits. Now, I didn't agree with all the Jesuits by any stretch of the imagination. I tend to be more on a, let's say, little more traditional side than some others. But I got along with the people who were not like me. I mean, basically, I got along. very easily. We had a spirituality that we shared in common and even though we didn't agree on everything, we didn't turn it into identity politics and beat you up because of your ideology. We just never had that in the Jesuits. But yeah, all Jesuits, you know, are not in perfect agreement. But, ⁓ you know, I thought I can get along with everybody here and I always did. I mean, I didn't, you know, have people who wanted to basically box my ears off or something of that nature. Every once in a while you run into somebody who's a little antagonistic, but I'll be honest with you that there's a real strong brotherhood around the spiritual exercises in the Jesuits and it's pretty edifying. And of course I love the freedom that I had in the Jesuits. I mean who else after they finish a university presidency gets to go and start a whole new apostolate? Orange County, California, just to put the whole thing together and have their superior applaud you for responding the greatest universal need. mean, so that was place for me. It's not for but it's for people like me. ⁓ like said, you're going to agree with everybody, but I'll tell you one thing, the opportunity here.
Eve Rosemary: You
Fr. Spitzer: and the discernment principles here. And there's a common brotherhood here that's so respectful, good, charitably loving. It's really it and ⁓ looking And I think the Spirit honestly called me to the Jesuits. It wasn't just pure happenstance. You know, ⁓ I think honestly, he had me ⁓ by the nose even when I was making my college and ⁓ me to that Jesuit institution. All four of my brothers and sisters went to University of Portland. I went to Gonzaga. I loved it. but for me, it was the example. I saw those guys and I saw how open they were and how free they were and how happy they were. And ⁓ thought, you know, could get along with these guys. And ⁓ that's what happened.
Eve Rosemary: Yeah, right. Yeah, that's really beautiful, Father. And know we're just at about time here and you've given us so many good, ⁓ ⁓ of advice and discernment. And ⁓ think that's going to be really helpful for people. But maybe just to kind of leave off on maybe a fun note and just to highlight your vocation journey all the more, I would love to know what your favorite part of being a priest has been all these years. Do you have any moments or things that you just really love about your vocation?
Fr. Spitzer: Well, I tend to be a happy type, ⁓ you know, kind of a type of person. Of course, I can have my moments of impatience, don't get me wrong, but I, in general, tend to be a joyful, happy type, you very much living in the serenity and the joy of Christ. So, you know, ⁓ I teaching, love writing, I love starting institutes, I love the entrepreneurial kind of spirit, I love. meeting with benefactors. But for me, I always enjoyed being with students. I'll give you an example, one of many. You know, when I was president of Gonzaga, you know, my office door, my outer office door had a huge glass panel in front of it. So the students could just see right inside to the office. And, you know, if it was after like 10 o'clock at night when students come out to Prowl, You know they could look under I had an inner office and they could see underneath my door if my light was on so Well, you know these students would come bam bam bam a pizza in front of the window I could you know try to lure me out ⁓ And ⁓ of course with this big impish grin on their faces They were irresistible. Whenever the students tried these tricks, I couldn't help myself. always suckered. It was going to be in a commitment of 45 minutes minimum, and I always did it. I just loved being with them. I loved the fact that they trusted my friendship enough to lure me out with a pizza and actually pay for it. Here I have the budget of the president, and they're paying for the pizza.
Eve Rosemary: What the f***
Fr. Spitzer: It was great. I loved that whole life of being with the students. I ⁓ many incidents like this in my life right now. My whole staff here is so wonderful. And I truly ⁓ experience the love of God through them day day. And the same thing with the people work with, the benefactors I work with, et cetera. all, ⁓ truly, reinforces joy. So, you know, priests, priests don't live a bad life. They they get adopted by a whole lot of people.
Eve Rosemary: Yeah.
Fr. Spitzer: But of course, above all, I like my prayer life and I like being with the Lord in the sacraments. I love celebrating the Eucharist and ⁓ I love celebrating the other sacraments as well.
Eve Rosemary: That's so amazing and just want to point out too and just hearing you talk about it and hearing you talk about your whole journey What I love so much about it is that it's very clear to see that God brought you to a vocation that brought out the things that like you were already loving to do and I think that's so much of the journey for a lot of people is God doesn't just look at the things that you enjoy and try and suppress them for the sake of like a better cause, but really wants us to find that joy and that fulfillment in so much of what you love to do is just exemplified in how you get to live your life through your vocation. And thank you so much for sharing. ⁓ Would you be able to, I know you've done a lot of academic things. I know you have a lot of different resources. Would you be able to share just where people can find
Fr. Spitzer: Exactly.
Eve Rosemary: more of your work and some more of that encouragement from you.
Fr. Spitzer: ⁓ yeah, if you go to MajaCenter.com, that is a place where you can get all of the various resources, a lot of free digital and video resources. Also keep an eye out for social media posts that ⁓ also come You know, some of them feature some of ⁓ quick brief insights. then of ⁓ really important. If you want Father Spitzer at your bedside, elbow, you know, while you're sitting there at the office or whatever, get MAGIS AI, You can answer, I mean, you can ask any question you want on the confluence of science, reason, faith, Catholic spirituality, Catholic morality, Catholic scripture, exegesis, Catholic doctrine, Catholic theology. So it's right at the influence of the confluence of social science, natural science, philosophy, history, and all the sacred sciences. It answers every question. basically, much of database is built on my 20 books my Science, Reason, Faith, Catholic Study Bible. So I would say that it's free of charge. of charge. That's it.
Eve Rosemary: amazing. Well, yeah, thank you so much, Father, for coming on and I'll ⁓ link everything ⁓ in the of this episode so that people can check it out. But ⁓ it's just wonderful to hear this journey from you. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing.
Fr. Spitzer: ⁓ no, thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored and gosh, you really are a great interviewer and commentator. Thank you.
Eve Rosemary: ⁓ Thank you.
Fr. Spitzer: Thanks so very much for having me.
Eve Rosemary: Yes, well Father, I would love just really again to go back to the beginning. Can you kind of share with us a little bit about your upbringing? Were you a cradle Catholic? What did that look like for your journey?
Fr. Spitzer: Well, I was certainly a cradle Catholic and I'd be remiss if I didn't say that my faith journey goes right back to my mother who was a daily communicant, who as an example was very good. Every one of us kids knew how important faith was in her life, how important the church was in her life, her devotion was right out there. And I just like appropriated it. I absorbed it and was very enthusiastic. about my faith life almost from kindergarten onward. I didn't go to a Catholic school. I went to a school that was more math, science, ⁓ school. But went to CCD classes with the Maryknoll Fathers at a called Heart School in Honolulu, Hawaii. And ⁓ I have to you Sacred Heart Parish and those fathers were absolutely terrific. I mean, they were like my mother. I felt a palpable peace when I went to church and when I was at CCD. I loved going over and playing on this little garden area which was outside the priest's residence. ⁓ ⁓ serving Mass. I got into it. They made you part of the ⁓ of the Altar. ⁓ was definitely into that. I just loved learning about... the Catholic faith. I loved going to church, honestly. Sometimes, of course, I was restless and my mother had to give me the dagger stare to get me back refocused, but not often. really loved it. At the time I was going, of course, the Love Masters in Latin, and we had our own little missile there. It wasn't an exact translation. It was a kid translation, but I would be buried in my little missile and very, very enthusiastic. And like I said,
Eve Rosemary: Rui.
Fr. Spitzer: anything anybody said with any religious value, I was unabsorbed. It's like baptismal grace I got, you the Holy Spirit, it was animating me all the time. mean, it was I was very, very enthusiastic. And ⁓ that on all the way through ninth grade. And then, you know, in ninth grade, you know, I had a little, you know, ⁓ some things you know, where I kind of went, whoa, Nellie Beliare, I got to check some things out. So ⁓ You know, a lot of people were challenging me on my faith, as I said, I didn't go to Catholic school, but I went to a school that was at least denominational Protestant, School. you know, I went to the chapel there, but mostly, you know, science actually confirmed my faith when I was younger. ⁓ the literature classes that I had, you know, a lot of that was pretty, ⁓ pretty on the religious score. was portrayed almost to the point of, why would an all-loving God allow this to happen? And I wasn't yet old enough to situate that in terms of human choice and
Eve Rosemary: you
Fr. Spitzer: just couldn't quite get the freedom argument down pat well enough ⁓ to respond. So I was kind of, I went, you know, wavering a little bit, but I didn't ⁓ ever stop to church.
Eve Rosemary: ⁓
Fr. Spitzer: The pull I had from my grade school, my intuition about God, my happiness in abiding in God, my love of the church, it never waned. But I was going around in high school more or less asking priests or asking teachers, know, is there any evidence for God? Do we have any kind of proof and so forth?
Eve Rosemary: So.
Fr. Spitzer: Unfortunately, when I was in high school, a lot of people answered, well, faith is a mystery. good enough. Some people told me, you know, well, ⁓ hold a baby and then, ⁓ know, ⁓ know it's a miracle and you'll see God exists. Holding the baby, not enough. You know, it just wasn't convincing. I mean, I still went to church. I still love God. I still thought he existed, but I just wanted I needed a comeback.
Eve Rosemary: No. Right.
Fr. Spitzer: I didn't want to take any blows that I couldn't respond to. was, you know, when I was a kid, know, curious, intelligent, I wanted answers. ⁓ know, ⁓ I went to Gonzaga University, where later became president. But at the time, ⁓ I had any thought about that. But at time, you know, when I was going there, I just had some professors at work. incredibly helpful to me. One guy actually pulled out, you know, it was the latest and greatest, you know, singularity equations, by Friedman and Penrose, honking in Penrose and ⁓ later some articles by Friedman and I began, wow, you know, you know, all space timelines come to a point of infinite curvature to a point ⁓ in finite past, that would indicative of a creation moment, you know, so. I didn't get all the math at the time because I couldn't understand tensor calculus, but I did get the concepts in global fashion. so basically at that point I began, day of course the Holy Spirit is still guiding me. I'm going down the corridors at and I hear this metaphysics professor going, Prove for the existence of God. I stop literally in the...
Eve Rosemary: Yeah, stop doing drugs.
Fr. Spitzer: Yeah, truly. I stopped and stopped in the hallway and I thought, I gotta go into this class. I looked officially, you know. I kind of walked in there like I knew what I was doing. Went to the back of the class and you know, I was trying to follow this proof, but he was already mid course into it for a couple of days. So I was trying to catch up and figure out what he was doing. And then finally I came up to him afterwards and I said, OK, this doesn't sound convincing. I got a problem here and there. The guy goes. I know very well you're not in this class. He says, know, if come to the class, enroll in the whole thing, I'll prove the existence of God to you. So I did. I enrolled. And he did. You know, and then I got exposed not just to St. Thomas Aquinas and, the great Klubertans, you know, as I ⁓ read, Klubertans' commentaries on the proof for the existence of God in his book on natural theology. I also was able to get exposed to Bernard Lonergan who came to our campus. So they're talking about this proof in chapter 19 of insight, big huge tome. So I went down to that bookstore, e-mediamente, and I got that book. It cost me a small fortune, but I picked up that book and I read that chapter 19. And then because I couldn't understand all of it, you know, without reading other chapters of the book, I wound up reading a huge chunk of insight. You know, by the time I was you my sophomore, junior year of college, I was very much into Aquinas and Lonergan and, you know, ⁓ Transcendental ⁓ know, called Valley Thomism, you know, definitely, you know, all of a I was turned on completely. And luckily, Gonzaga University at that time had a free audit policy. So if you were taking 18 credit hours and you were doing very well, you could take as many classes, audit, not take, audit as many classes as you wanted, free of charge. You could do, and that was, like for me, that's going to a banquet, a buffet banquet. And I was just.
Eve Rosemary: Wow. Yeah, someone who loves academics, mean, that's like ⁓
Fr. Spitzer: It was everything. I just like switched on Spitzer. know, so of course I started going into theology classes, scripture classes, history classes. I was the happiest claim on planet earth and slowly but surely what wound up happening is my religion became front and center in my life. And then all of a sudden I thought, you know, there's a law career, there's business and law career, you know. put that on hold for a second and maybe I should think about a priestly vocation. I don't want to go into the whole thing, but this question occurred to me and I just thought I can't think of anything more important in my life. But at the very same time, I wanted to follow my father in having a wonderful family life. I wanted to take over his law firm, which none of my other brothers and sisters are interested in law or business, corporation law. You know, I was a guy, I was it, you know, and so I was interested also in family businesses. So I was kind of torn between in between. And, know, my dad was so happy with my mother, a very happily married couple. So I had, you know, I was just sitting there going, well, I'm not sure. And my mom, you know, I must have talked to her about it on the phone one day. And in those days, of course, we didn't have cell phones.
Eve Rosemary: It's beautiful.
Fr. Spitzer: You called up on the payphone in the corridor. So but I don't know how I got on the topic with mom, but she goes, I just read this article in Time magazine the permanent diaconate. And I said, what's that all about? Well, you can ⁓ be a cleric for the church and you can also be married so long ⁓ as ⁓ become after you're married. You know, and of course, he goes, you could take over your dad's law firm and everything. And, know, you could get the best of both worlds. So I thought, that's great. You know, and this is a solution to problems. But I had this nagging thing going on inside of me. tell you, the Holy Spirit nags and nags. And so, of course, you know, finally, I just was coming out of this mass at St. Al's.
Eve Rosemary: best of both worlds. ⁓
Fr. Spitzer: St. Aloysius Church. And so I caught out of the side of my eye, you know, I caught this book on being a priest. It was like, you know, a 30, 40 page pamphlet. forget what it was. Lots of pictures in it, so forth and so on, by a guy named Father Armstrong. I just said, half of my brain said, read that book. The other half of my brain said, do not read that book. But I picked up the book and read the book. ⁓ just...
Eve Rosemary: were you kind of hesitant to read it because did it seem like a almost like a next step in that journey for you?
Fr. Spitzer: Well, no, I was scared I'd get persuaded to be a priest and my super solution with being a permanent deacon and taking away ⁓ It'd be dashed and that's exactly what happened so I you know, I got the thing was actually dashed into the ground ⁓ know, I read that book and I said that's me This is I am. It's almost as if the Holy Spirit just galvanized in me this thought You know you Spencer, your religion is your life. You know, you've gotten into it. know, you've debated in this subject, you know, this person, that person, you've already been on ⁓ TV, know, this is your life, you know, this is the center of it. And I just, ⁓ you I read that book, I looked at those pictures, which were just as, you know, persuasive to me as ⁓ the the print, you know, the arguments. And so I... I basically thought, you know, maybe I should look into this. And then I had a bizarre incident. You know, I was working in a public accounting firm at the time and I used to take up a little alleyway, you know, to a shortcut get to downtown Spokane where I could work in the accounting firm down there. And ⁓ I was going down there, kind of just up in my good clothes, my suit, so forth. This rainstorm just happens. won't go into the details. I'll just simply say I was getting poured on. I this little shack in alley that had a galvanized steel eave coming off of the roof. I ⁓ shot over there get underneath. And the water is literally like a water fountain just pouring over me. I felt like it was an inside cave and a big waterfall. and just looking and this water is pouring over me. And I don't know why I said it. I just said, OK, Lord, is this about me being a priest or something? ⁓
Eve Rosemary: Wow, that's interesting that made- yeah, that connection doesn't quite seem like it makes sense.
Fr. Spitzer: I tell you it was the Holy Spirit that that is not who I am. am a very systematic thinker, very logical. ⁓ not pick up analogies by association almost. ⁓ know, in fact, my sisters will probably tell you I'm a dunderhead in this area, ⁓ ⁓ have to tell you ⁓ exactly what occurred to me. It's almost like I was inspired to say as a Zelda, you know, and of course I said, OK, if it is.
Eve Rosemary: Mm-hmm.
Fr. Spitzer: make the rain stop. And it did. It stopped so quickly that I was shocked. I would never make a decision like that again, a discernment like that in my whole life. In fact, I thought it was so silly in the aftermath. You know, could this really be, you know, would God really work this way, stopping the rain, you know, to satisfy the stubborn little kid? You know, and I thought maybe he would. So I thought, you know,
Eve Rosemary: Great.
Fr. Spitzer: I promised when I made that, you know, make the rain stop, said, I'll go see Father O'Learyers. He was the vocations guy. I'd been thinking about it, but that did it. So I went and saw him.
Eve Rosemary: Yeah, that would be a pretty clear sign and really interesting because up to this point it seems like you're, you get, definitely given a gift of faith at a young age, which is very evident, but then it seems like everything since then kind of took some time of like really learning and thinking through it. And like, here's this moment in a single instance. You get an answer. Right.
Fr. Spitzer: See Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Well, no, it was a catalyzing moment, even honestly, I would have liked to have had more noble motives, but it was really a book on priesthood and a rainstorm that that kind of got me, you know, kicked me in the high ⁓ rear end there and got me over to Father O'Leary. And, you know, my first encounter with it was very strange, you know.
Eve Rosemary: Hahaha
Fr. Spitzer: I walked in there and he goes, well, how long have you been thinking about this? Well, I didn't tell him I'd been thinking about it for a whole year and a half, you know, really it was catalyzing over the last three weeks or four weeks. So I said, you know, three or four weeks or so. And he just starts laughing, you know, so, you maybe back to permanent Deacon here, you know, so. He said, what do you know about the vows? The three vows. And he said, well, the vow of chastity is where you're chaste for Christ the vow of poverty is where you're poor for Christ and the vow of obedience is where you're obedient for Christ. And he goes, do you know anything more? I said, not really. And he goes, okay, read these five books. So one of them was on the vows and it was a very good and informative book.
Eve Rosemary: You
Fr. Spitzer: but the one that got me, I read that autobiography of St. Ignatius of Loyola and I thought, like this guy, know, ⁓ action packed all the way. You know, this is a guy and I love the concept of the Magus, you know, just ⁓ ⁓ means the even more, you know, and so I looked at that Ignatius has three questions, you know, well, you know, what's the greatest universal knee?
Eve Rosemary: I have a new friend.
Fr. Spitzer: And let's say it's trying to prevent people from diving off the atheistic agnostic cliff just because they don't ⁓ know reasons when there's tons of reasons out there, but they just don't know. And then the second question of Ignatius is, well, is anybody else doing it? Well, at the time, no. The Church not doing a huge amount in science-based. apologetic so we did have some good philosophical based apologetics. We sure weren't publicizing it well. And then finally, of course, you know, well, do you have some competency in it? And I was arrogant enough to think, well, if I don't have competency now, I will later. I will make sure I have competency in this. And Ignatius said, well, ⁓ the answer to these questions is yes, get going.
Eve Rosemary: ⁓ huh.
Fr. Spitzer: And I thought, I like that and I like him and I like the way he just, he sees the need to blammo, whammo, right? He goes out, finds somebody who gives him money to getting the thing done. He goes out, he recruits some people who want to do it, you know, and, and, you know, join forces, you know, he takes some people who really want to do the spiritual exercises and want to, you know, get purification in their heart and really want to do it. And so it kind of puts it together. Next thing you know, you know, the Jesuits. in a single generation of the largest school system in all of Europe and not only in Catholic Europe but in all the reformed too. I thought, you know, this guy, could follow him. ⁓ I'd like to follow Jesus, of course, that's the main thing. But he looks like a guy who wants to get things done, not a guy who likes to get things done. So it was a meeting of the hearts and minds
Eve Rosemary: Yeah. Right. Right.
Fr. Spitzer: ⁓
Eve Rosemary: well, and if I could just, I want to highlight here too, for who are listening, especially with having a younger audience like this, these moments of discernment too, and learning from other saints about how they discerned. And ⁓ really, especially this process, it sounds like it's kind of where in the world the love of God. Do I have the qualities? Like has God given me these qualities and now, okay, now let's go and do it. That sounds like, especially what St. Ignatius did is like he felt a call and he trusted in God so he went for it, even if it wasn't going to work out. And now here you are learning from that same discernment and have gone on to do all these incredible things with that knowledge. But it started even before your discernment for the priesthood. And now it's like continuing into that discernment and actually helping you.
Fr. Spitzer: ⁓ yeah?
Eve Rosemary: find that call for your vocation.
Fr. Spitzer: ⁓ yeah, the Holy Spirit is very crafty. I use that in a good sense. knows just how to get you. He ⁓ you off from one thing and pushes you in another direction ever so subtly so that it's always your choice. But he's very good persuader. I have to say that as I of move through my own discernment process,
Eve Rosemary: get you. Is that? You
Fr. Spitzer: There's a thing called consolation and desolation. I was always in a state of consolation after my first half year in the novitiate. There were moments, of course, you always look back and you go, oh gosh, what have I done? I remember once going to a baseball game. I was teaching as a regent before I got ordained. They had me teaching at Seattle University to philosophy. classes to university students. went to an all-star game or something and it was bat night and all these young guys are there with their little kids and know I thought ⁓ my gosh what have I done. You know around me has got all their kids and they're you know they got the bats and the hats you know and they're they're happy and so forth and you know I'm a seminarian and all I can tell you is things are very temporary. It's like the evil spirit just can't wait. If he sees somebody who is really serious about a vocation, he's gonna plug ⁓ ulterior motive he can. So first thing he says, the reason you joined is because of these inauthentic ulterior motives. And if you don't have any principles of discernment and Ignatius does have very good principles of discernment. But at the time, I wasn't overly familiar with them. I'd seen them when I did my long retreat in the novitiate and all. But basically, I would get sucker punched and think, gosh, maybe that's me. Maybe I secretly hated law or accounting. I could think of an ulterior motive every 10 seconds. of course, that became my principal reason for joining. But my real reason for joining is I loved God. I wanted to serve his kingdom. I wanted to serve his people. And every time I thought about that, I was really enthusiastic and my religion became the center of my life. But I had to recenter myself on the truth because like I said, the evil spirit, he just zings in and he stings and zings in and he stings again, you know, and of course the ulterior motive is that, or the other thing is look at what everybody else is doing. They already have families, they're already doing responsible things. I could be doing this too. And here I am all day studying, studying, you know, Lord, are you sure this is what you want from me? And so forth. And you just got to learn to recognize, you know, the evil spirit rushes in. He's going to try everything. He's going to fill you with doubts. He's going to fill you with nightmares, give you some real hassle. The voice of the evil spirit is always, you're a and ⁓ what do you think you're doing? You're not worthy of joining it. For the first two of you were a greedy numbers guy. You treated nobody well. Who do think you are? You want special? I'll give you special.
Eve Rosemary: Good.
Fr. Spitzer: So, but that's not the voice of God. That's not the voice the Holy Spirit. It's the voice of the evil spirit who's trying to use shame, guilt, fear, know, everything he can to hit you, you know, the head. And ⁓ like I a lot of guys, I consider myself that ⁓ there was always in my life. was able to to those things very quickly. having a director very, very important. And my spiritual directors during my especially when I in formation and seminary, were really helpful to me because Without them, I might have gotten sucker punched. And I know some guys who did. I thought they for sure had vocations. And they literally canceled out. They all these things flood them. And then the desolation confusion that came with that flooding, they off. And you just have to learn be resilient, learn to be spitzer stubborn.
Eve Rosemary: you
Fr. Spitzer: But above all, learn to be discerning and listen to your spiritual director. ⁓
Eve Rosemary: Sure, and I'd love to just here for a second too, because as someone who's in my early ⁓ now, ⁓ in what I've experienced and what I've seen other people my age experience, there is a lot of fear in decisions that we're talking about. Kind of like a fear of like, ⁓ do I have a call to marriage or religious life or ⁓ like, does God have for me? And it's really easy to come at that.
Fr. Spitzer: Mm-hmm.
Eve Rosemary: with a sense of fear, which I think is definitely kind of as we're talking about the discernment of spirits, not the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit doesn't lead us in fear. So if you could maybe just speak to what does that discernment look like between figuring out how to follow the Holy Spirit's voice ⁓ kind get away from some of those fearful and negative thoughts that are pulling you away from the fulfillment that the Holy Spirit truly does offer.
Fr. Spitzer: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's really good question. I mean, the first thing, know, I just I have some questions for people right the get go. Number one, your religion at the center of your life or is it not? If there are things at the center of your life, I don't know, you want to be a great businessman, good lawyer, good soldier. Nothing wrong with that. You know, I mean, but if it and what I mean by the center of your life is, do you want to make your religion? kind of the center of what you do, what you think, so forth. ⁓ the institutions you join and associate yourself with, et cetera. If you don't, put up the vocation decision. If your religion is not just smack dab in the center, if are other things that just really capture, fascinate you, capture your I wanna start all these businesses, whatever. Take note, because the Holy Spirit does, you know, He catalyzes, each of us are different, right? We're all very, very different, but there's this catalyzing of, you know, being with the Lord, serving the Lord, the kingdom of God, religion, kingdom, Lord, center of my life. That's what I want to do. Here's where I find meaning and legacy. If that's there, That's number one question. that off the list. The second thing to check off the list just in terms of, know, to look at yourself. You know, I came from a super good so family life didn't represent I wanted to flee ⁓ I loved it and I was super to my brothers and sisters. So, I mean, because of that, you know, I had to sort of make a decision. Do I want a breadth vocation or do I want a depth vocation? What I mean by that is, do I want to serve a large number of people where I can present myself as being free from other constraints to each and every parishioner or each and every student or whoever, you whoever my constituencies are, each and every constituent. present myself to them as if they are what matters to me right now. That, you know, there's not something else that I have to take care of that's a higher priority. are there because God's my highest priority and my ⁓ highest priority right now because that is way that God would want me to have my priorities is to focus on you the student, you the parishioner, whatever. So the point is, that who think you are? Are you a breadth kind of person? Follow the wherever he directs you. No particular intimacy. Of course you can have emotional intimacy with people. You can have sort of deep friends and so forth. But of course you can't have romantic or sexual intimacy. You know, obviously if you do that, you're moving into a intimacy with somebody. You know that, ⁓ you ⁓ necessity make them your number one priority. You know, they're, you in your life, you know, you intend to start a family with them. You intend to bond emotionally, not only to spouse, but to your children, your family. And that, you know, means that the, ⁓ you know, the the wife, the spouse has to become the number one priority and you can only have one number one priority logically so it has to be an exclusive relationship limited to one. know you're looking at that and you have to say well that's a great life too. I mean having that deep intimacy you can come and tell people ⁓ only about your problems but you can focus on loving your spouse and your children. as a number one priority, they look back to you in the same way. As you know, there's nothing better than having the love of kids reflected right back to you as an individual, but also as a couple. You know, it's a tremendous, wonderful, great life, you know, but it's just different. You know, if you want to be committed to go anywhere, do anything, be obedient to where the Lord wants you to. do what Ignatius would call the even more, get out there and do the mission. And there's no other standing in the way. know, that's kind of you, if you're a breadth person and you wanna be more of a breadth person and singularly serving the Lord as a breadth person, and you you can, and this is not easy to do. but you think you can forego the emotional intimacy of marriage. And remember, the emotional intimacy of marriage takes a lot of time, a lot of commitment, and a lot of self-sacrifice. Breath ministries do too, but this commitment and the self-sacrifice and the time is focused on a small group in marriage, a large group in a priestly vocation or in a celibate vocation. So who's you?
Eve Rosemary: Thank
Fr. Spitzer: That's the thought. you're saying, I'm kind of a breadth person. I want to follow the Lord where he is. If that's the case, then I would say you have two steps now you have to take if the answers to one and two are yes. I'm a religions at the center. I'm a breadth person. That's the way I want to serve. want to follow God to serve everyone. He wants me to serve wherever the need is great. OK, if that's the case, ⁓ thing to do is ⁓ out to you know, they have these vocation days, right? and in these vocation days in schools or the dioceses run vocation days, kinds of things, where you can actually get various brochures of kinds of religious orders. And you to know yourself ⁓ in some degree. Can you imagine trying to be a monastic person who says hardly anything? ⁓
Eve Rosemary: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.
Fr. Spitzer: would kill me. ⁓ I said, yeah, I'm probably not going to be a monk. I love being alone with the Lord in prayer. But when the hour is over, I move back to my usual blabbermouth ⁓ ⁓ know, you know, picking books right and left and so forth, or now audible books. ⁓ But main thing is, you know, know yourself,
Eve Rosemary: Thank Thank you.
Fr. Spitzer: Look at things. Look at the oars. If you think that a habit is important, part of your call. Then choose one that wears a habit and so forth. So that third step is just find where you're being called. And of course, that gets us to the fourth point.
Eve Rosemary: Mm-hmm. Right.
Fr. Spitzer: And the fourth point is once you've identified some places that might be you, right? you know, figure out, appeal to you, get a spiritual director from that community or do a come and see as they call it with that community. So do, you know, try ⁓ best to get some sense ⁓ you know, a visit essential. My visit to the Jesuit novitiate was essential. you you've got to see when you get there, do you have a resonance, what we call consolation, where the spirit is moving you this direction and you just sense, I could want for nothing more than this. Or you have a sense of desolation? Or maybe it's sort of ambiguous. But the point is, if consolation there, in abundance, that's a good sign. Desolation is not necessarily a bad sign. It just means that you don't have that confirmation yet. So you may want to do some other common sees and look around. But the main thing is, once you the community that where you think, is me, I be here, that's when you have to get a spiritual director from that. diocese from that religious community, whatever it may be, get that spiritual director and listen to him or And if ⁓ the discernment is looking quite positive, then ⁓ for me, the only way you're gonna find out is if you join up. I mean, this whole thing about going to be locked in indecision for the next five years. thought is, when you join a religious community, you join as a postulant or a novice, right?
Eve Rosemary: Right, you're still discerning.
Fr. Spitzer: So, you're still correct. You are still discerning. And so just, you don't have to have made the decision ⁓ ⁓ clarity and precision, you know, but so many people think they do. And so I just say, keep that discern, you know, it's like a period of dating before ⁓ you, know, decide I'm going to propose to this guy, this person.
Eve Rosemary: Yeah.
Fr. Spitzer: or whatever. know, the idea there is you live that life, you live the spirituality, If you're going do this, just ask, just tell yourself one thing. I'm to read the rules for discernment of spirits. I'm going to figure out and I'm going to ask my spiritual director to help me figure out. whether some bunch of thoughts is from the evil spirit or from the good spirit, whether this consolation is from the good spirit or the evil spirit, whether this desolation is from the good spirit or the evil spirit. Most of the time consolation is from the good spirit. Most of the time desolation is from the evil spirit, but not always. 20 % of the time it goes in reverse and it's the reverse ones that are really important and to know the rules. thing is if you're gonna go forward with whatever it is, vows or diaconate and so forth, which of course leads a year later to the priesthood, if you're gonna do that, then make up your mind, I'm gonna be a discerning individual.
Eve Rosemary: yeah, and we don't do it alone by any means, right? Like you both in the Holy Spirit's ⁓ realm of ⁓ expertise, right? Like he's guiding us through all of it. And as you keep mentioning too, having that spiritual director, having people that you can turn to and ask for advice and ⁓ people who are going to reassure you, there's a reason that you've been put on this path. And these moments of fear and not knowing what's next or those spiritual attacks that you're facing. Like you need someone to walk with you through that so that you can continue on the path. Because the path that God has for us, it isn't always easy, but we can see how well worth it is. And I'm sure now as someone who's been a priest for many years, like you can see how that, how you came out on the other side of that from your seminary. I'm sure you've probably faced moments even since then. that you've had to be reassured of that, that God's will does prevail when we allow Him to work in our life and we say yes and take the time to discern that.
Fr. Spitzer: ⁓ yeah.
Eve Rosemary: I think where we left off kind of in your vocation journey was you were in the seminary and then obviously you are specifically a Jesuit priest. ⁓ So you always on the path with being a Jesuit or is that something that you discovered in your spirituality as you went along in the discernment?
Fr. Spitzer: Actually, partially discovered by pure happenstance, I went to a Jesuit university. know, ⁓ was the type, honestly, that would have several questions bubbling up in my mind. And so I would go to the third floor, which was, you know, the faculty offices and search around for a Jesuit who might be staying around on a Friday afternoon. You know, Father Tom Reiser come and say, ⁓ well, well, well, Bob Spitzer here on a Friday afternoon again. And I said, yes, I have three questions. Only three today. That's good. And of course, I would blurt out all of these things and he tried to answer them and so forth. But the main thing is guys presented such an example of openness and helpfulness to me,
Eve Rosemary: Only three!
Fr. Spitzer: They were just there. naturally when I decided that ⁓ wanted to a priest, I thought of the Jesuits because I love their academic excellence as part things. loved when I read St. Ignatius of Loyola's biography, I love the whole idea of the mages and the even more and greatest universal need. I then, of course, I love the example of so many of these Jesuits. Now, I didn't agree with all the Jesuits by any stretch of the imagination. I tend to be more on a, let's say, little more traditional side than some others. But I got along with the people who were not like me. I mean, basically, I got along. very easily. We had a spirituality that we shared in common and even though we didn't agree on everything, we didn't turn it into identity politics and beat you up because of your ideology. We just never had that in the Jesuits. But yeah, all Jesuits, you know, are not in perfect agreement. But, ⁓ you know, I thought I can get along with everybody here and I always did. I mean, I didn't, you know, have people who wanted to basically box my ears off or something of that nature. Every once in a while you run into somebody who's a little antagonistic, but I'll be honest with you that there's a real strong brotherhood around the spiritual exercises in the Jesuits and it's pretty edifying. And of course I love the freedom that I had in the Jesuits. I mean who else after they finish a university presidency gets to go and start a whole new apostolate? Orange County, California, just to put the whole thing together and have their superior applaud you for responding the greatest universal need. mean, so that was place for me. It's not for but it's for people like me. ⁓ like said, you're going to agree with everybody, but I'll tell you one thing, the opportunity here.
Eve Rosemary: You
Fr. Spitzer: and the discernment principles here. And there's a common brotherhood here that's so respectful, good, charitably loving. It's really it and ⁓ looking And I think the Spirit honestly called me to the Jesuits. It wasn't just pure happenstance. You know, ⁓ I think honestly, he had me ⁓ by the nose even when I was making my college and ⁓ me to that Jesuit institution. All four of my brothers and sisters went to University of Portland. I went to Gonzaga. I loved it. but for me, it was the example. I saw those guys and I saw how open they were and how free they were and how happy they were. And ⁓ thought, you know, could get along with these guys. And ⁓ that's what happened.
Eve Rosemary: Yeah, right. Yeah, that's really beautiful, Father. And know we're just at about time here and you've given us so many good, ⁓ ⁓ of advice and discernment. And ⁓ think that's going to be really helpful for people. But maybe just to kind of leave off on maybe a fun note and just to highlight your vocation journey all the more, I would love to know what your favorite part of being a priest has been all these years. Do you have any moments or things that you just really love about your vocation?
Fr. Spitzer: Well, I tend to be a happy type, ⁓ you know, kind of a type of person. Of course, I can have my moments of impatience, don't get me wrong, but I, in general, tend to be a joyful, happy type, you very much living in the serenity and the joy of Christ. So, you know, ⁓ I teaching, love writing, I love starting institutes, I love the entrepreneurial kind of spirit, I love. meeting with benefactors. But for me, I always enjoyed being with students. I'll give you an example, one of many. You know, when I was president of Gonzaga, you know, my office door, my outer office door had a huge glass panel in front of it. So the students could just see right inside to the office. And, you know, if it was after like 10 o'clock at night when students come out to Prowl, You know they could look under I had an inner office and they could see underneath my door if my light was on so Well, you know these students would come bam bam bam a pizza in front of the window I could you know try to lure me out ⁓ And ⁓ of course with this big impish grin on their faces They were irresistible. Whenever the students tried these tricks, I couldn't help myself. always suckered. It was going to be in a commitment of 45 minutes minimum, and I always did it. I just loved being with them. I loved the fact that they trusted my friendship enough to lure me out with a pizza and actually pay for it. Here I have the budget of the president, and they're paying for the pizza.
Eve Rosemary: What the f***
Fr. Spitzer: It was great. I loved that whole life of being with the students. I ⁓ many incidents like this in my life right now. My whole staff here is so wonderful. And I truly ⁓ experience the love of God through them day day. And the same thing with the people work with, the benefactors I work with, et cetera. all, ⁓ truly, reinforces joy. So, you know, priests, priests don't live a bad life. They they get adopted by a whole lot of people.
Eve Rosemary: Yeah.
Fr. Spitzer: But of course, above all, I like my prayer life and I like being with the Lord in the sacraments. I love celebrating the Eucharist and ⁓ I love celebrating the other sacraments as well.
Eve Rosemary: That's so amazing and just want to point out too and just hearing you talk about it and hearing you talk about your whole journey What I love so much about it is that it's very clear to see that God brought you to a vocation that brought out the things that like you were already loving to do and I think that's so much of the journey for a lot of people is God doesn't just look at the things that you enjoy and try and suppress them for the sake of like a better cause, but really wants us to find that joy and that fulfillment in so much of what you love to do is just exemplified in how you get to live your life through your vocation. And thank you so much for sharing. ⁓ Would you be able to, I know you've done a lot of academic things. I know you have a lot of different resources. Would you be able to share just where people can find
Fr. Spitzer: Exactly.
Eve Rosemary: more of your work and some more of that encouragement from you.
Fr. Spitzer: ⁓ yeah, if you go to MajaCenter.com, that is a place where you can get all of the various resources, a lot of free digital and video resources. Also keep an eye out for social media posts that ⁓ also come You know, some of them feature some of ⁓ quick brief insights. then of ⁓ really important. If you want Father Spitzer at your bedside, elbow, you know, while you're sitting there at the office or whatever, get MAGIS AI, You can answer, I mean, you can ask any question you want on the confluence of science, reason, faith, Catholic spirituality, Catholic morality, Catholic scripture, exegesis, Catholic doctrine, Catholic theology. So it's right at the influence of the confluence of social science, natural science, philosophy, history, and all the sacred sciences. It answers every question. basically, much of database is built on my 20 books my Science, Reason, Faith, Catholic Study Bible. So I would say that it's free of charge. of charge. That's it.
Eve Rosemary: amazing. Well, yeah, thank you so much, Father, for coming on and I'll ⁓ link everything ⁓ in the of this episode so that people can check it out. But ⁓ it's just wonderful to hear this journey from you. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing.
Fr. Spitzer: ⁓ no, thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored and gosh, you really are a great interviewer and commentator. Thank you.
Eve Rosemary: ⁓ Thank you.
